Journey to Chief: Rod McKinley on Military Service, Standards, Families and Leadership Values

STARRS & Stripes host CDR Al Palmer, USN ret, interviews STARRS Board of Directors member Rodney McKinley, who served as the 15th Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. McKinley shares his journey on how a childhood visit to the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB ignited a spark that led to a lifelong commitment to service from enlisted airman to the highest-ranking enlisted person in the Air Force. The discussion centers on military heritage, the importance of Junior ROTC programs, accountability in leadership, and the ongoing need for public awareness of military culture and values.

• Insights on the influence of family in military recruitment
• Importance of military heritage in shaping public perception
• The role of Junior ROTC in nurturing future service members
• Reflections on maintaining standards and discipline in military culture
• Why pushing drag queen shows on Air Force bases is not a good idea
• Emphasis on mentorship and building relationships in leadership
• Advocacy for a return to meritocracy in military service
• Importance of community involvement in military history
• Analysis of current challenges in military recruitment and retention

Timestamps:

00:00:11 Inspiring Military Service and Heritage
00:12:55 Military Family Recognition and Progression
00:30:34 Maintaining Military Image and Standards
00:35:49 Military Service, Values, and Progress
00:46:27 Honoring Military History and Heroes
00:52:45 Accountability and Leadership in Military
01:06:29 Building Strong Military Community Relationships

USAF Bio:

CHIEF MASTER SERGEANT OF THE AIR FORCE RODNEY J. MCKINLEY > Air Force > Biography Display

_______________________________________

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello America.
This is Commander Alan Palmer,united States Navy, retired,
your host for Stars and Stripes.
This is your view into what'shappening in today's military
and also, in a larger sense, inour society.
We're happy to be back with younow after the change in the

(00:33):
election that just took place,and we've got new things
happening in the country whichare pretty exciting.
But for us here at STARS we'vebeen on that now from the
beginning for the last severalyears in trying to make sure
that the military is strong, isfocused on warfighting and is
focused on exceptionalism whenit comes to defending the

(00:57):
country that come to fruition,and I'm very proud to be a part
of STARS, which has beeninstrumental in making some of
these things that are happeningnow actually reality, and so, as
part of that, I'm reallypleased today to have as my
guest the 15th Chief Master,sergeant of the Air Force,

(01:22):
master Sergeant Rodney McKinley,and Rod and I are going to talk
a little bit about how the AirForce had worked over the years,
some of the changes that we'veboth seen, because we were both
in the Air Force roughly in thesame time frame and then we'll
talk a little bit about thethings that we see in the future
.
I'm really excited to have Rodwith us in the future.

(01:47):
I'm really excited to have Rodwith us and so with that Chief
Master, sergeant of the AirForce.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
McKinley.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Alan.
It's a pleasure to be here withyou and thank you for your
tremendous service andeverything that you've done for
our country.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Well, listen, the honor is mine, and it's not
often that we get to talk toanother guy that's worked on
F-4s that I may have flown, soI'm happy to have you here for
that part of it, because youwent from an enlisted E-1 all

(02:24):
the way up through E-9 and thechief master sergeant of the Air
Force, which is the topposition in the enlisted ranks.
But it's also more than that,you know.
It's also a leadership positionin the Air Force.
That represents a huge portionof it, and so I'm anxious to
talk to you a little bit aboutthat aspect of it.

(02:45):
But before we do, just tell usa little bit about what got you
into the Air Force, into theservice, and how did you think
about it then.
Was there a motivating factorthat led you there, like family
or friends?
How'd that work?

Speaker 2 (03:02):
It's kind of amazing because I grew up outside of
Cincinnati, ohio, in Manor.
In my sixth grade class we wentto the museum in
Wright-Patterson our museumthere and I just kind of fell in
love with the Air Force and theaircraft and everything else.

(03:23):
And so that was my first reallythoughts of the Air Force and
the aircraft and everything else, and so that was my first
really thoughts of the Air Forceis in the sixth grade.
And then when I was graduatinghigh school me and a couple of
buddies we went to see arecruiter in Batavia, ohio, and
he talked to us about the AirForce and so we decided to go in

(03:44):
on the buddy system and so weall went to Lackland Air Force
Base, one went to.
After that one went to Nebraskaand I went to Seymour Johnson,
north Carolina.

(04:06):
And so the interesting thingabout all that is my sixth grade
class going to the museum.
Later on, you know, it's justironic that I ended up being on
the board of that museum and mypicture hangs in that museum.
So that's how I got into theAir Force and it's just just.

(04:28):
It's just.
I have friends from high school.
They go visit the museum.
They say, hey, your picturehangs there and I said, yeah, if
they hang it there to keep themice away.
You know, it's very, veryhumbling to have the opportunity
to have a career like I had.
I'm very thankful for everybodythat pushed me along and helped

(04:52):
me to get to where I got.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
So do you think that that may be kind of a motivating
factor when young people go toplaces like museums, or they go
see movies or anything else,it's the people there, like you
and like so many others thathave served the country, that
serve as examples to them, thatget them inspired enough to go

(05:17):
sign up.
That wasn't too difficult.
When Pearl Harbor was bombed,people flooded in, signed up,
and I think the same thing wascertainly evident in 9-11 when
we got attacked again.
So that's one way of gettingpeople into the service.
But it seems to me that there'sanother draw there.
The draw is the valor of peoplein both combat, but just in

(05:45):
everyday work and keeping acountry strong and keeping it
safe.
I think maybe we need to domore things like that in museums
, in film, in media.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Boy Alan, you just hit the button there.
I'll just take off and run withthat one, because I believe in
that.
Totally.
Run with that one because Ibelieve in that totally.
Currently we only have aboutfour and a half percent of our
country that's ever served inthe military and only about 0.5%
of the country currently serves.

(06:17):
So you have a tremendous amountof the country that really does
not have knowledge of ourmilitary, of what we've done or
what we're doing.
They don't know our history,our heritage.
So the more that we can get outand touch the public to tell
them what we're all about andshow our love of country, our

(06:42):
love of our service and the loveof our heritage, where we came
from and the battles we foughtin and the wars you know
everything else that'stremendous.
You know.
I think there's some thingsthat help out Tunnel for Towers,
the Wounded Warrior Projectshows those who have paid some

(07:03):
big prices.
I think that does a whole lotright there.
The museums if we can get thepublic to go visit our museums
and see our aircraft or theMarines or whatever.
But each one of us has ourheritage.
Another big part that I thinkis super important is junior
ROTC.

(07:23):
You know, even when I was in thePentagon as the chief, you know
we had issues and I tried tohelp because we weren't properly
funding Air Force junior ROTCand that's so important that we
fund them, the young people inhigh school, to have them learn

(07:43):
about our history and a littlebit of discipline, integrity and
all those other things they maygo on to serve in a branch of
service doesn't matter whichbranch they serve in, but also
it just gives them somecamaraderie and wear the uniform
, and I think Junior ROTC isincredible and so I would, and I

(08:08):
think we have 3,600 Junior ROTCspread all across the country.
So I would encourage ourSecretary of Defense to help
financially support you know theJunior ROTC across the country
because I've spoken at many ofthem in the past and sometimes
they got a scrape to get theuniforms to to do things and and

(08:31):
that's a great source ofrecruiting, you know is a junior
ROTC.
And so anything we can do toreach out to the public, you
know about what we do and Ireally like the Super Bowl.
There were a couple ads in thecommercials in the Super Bowl
that I thought were tremendous,that we really haven't seen much

(08:54):
, and so anything we can do toeducate the public of those that
serve and those who have servedand to tell the stories of the
great Americans that havesacrificed so much, you know, I
think helps with recruiting andretention for the future.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned the
Junior ROTC, because there was acase here in Texas where a
local junior ROTC classdiscovered that there was an F-4
on exhibit here in CentralTexas and it was in kind of bad
shape.
That junior ROTC ended uprestoring that airplane, at

(09:37):
least externally, with paint andall to make it look exactly
like it was, and it was a combataircraft which they didn't
realize.
It look exactly like it was andit was a combat aircraft which
they didn't realize.
So this junior ROTC bunch ofkids, led by an Eagle Scout and
his dad, took this whole efforton themselves and did a great
job with it.
Turns out that airplaneactually was one that I flew in

(09:57):
combat.
But the result of that was thewhole community then rallied
around that and that became abig thing for this very small
community in Central Texas andto this day they're still
talking about it.
They even made a film about it.
So you know, those are the kindof things you can get them
involved in.
And you're right, you know PeteEggstaff ought to take off on

(10:20):
that and energize that elementin our society.
But anyway, I just mentionedthat is one of the things that
can be done yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
That's uh an easy one to accomplish right there and,
you know, would not take atremendous amount of money.
But just make sure that eachjunior rtc for each branch of
service is fully funded to whatthey actually need to accomplish
their mission in these highschools.
We have a high school close towhere I live.
It's called clover high schooland they actually have 450

(10:56):
junior ROTC.
I believe it's the largestjunior ROTC in the in the
country.
But they travel, they go to allevents and do flag ceremonies.
They have expert riflecompetition across the country.
They even teach these highschools how to fly, learn these
things from Air Force seniorNCOs and the commander there and

(11:19):
to potentially be go in andserve in the military.
And even if they don't, they'velearned some life lessons in
that junior ROTC that could helpthem be successful in life.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
So in terms of family though, family comes into that
equation too, does it not?
You know, with a good base forfinding recruits and all but
that kind of got diminished overthe last several years, when we
kind of got away from some ofthe more basic elements, as you
and I have talked about withmilitary service and I have

(12:06):
talked about with militaryservice and into more of the DEI
business and some other thingsthat interfered with the concept
of duty, honor and country.
So do you think we're on aswing back the other direction
now?

Speaker 2 (12:16):
I certainly hope so, because I think in the past I've
spoken to just thousands andthousands of airmen and many of
them come from families, parents, who have served in the
military, whether they've servedin the Army, whether they've
served in the Air Force, butthey have family members who

(12:36):
have served before.
I think recently, because ofthings that have happened, I
don't think, as many of theprior military would say, I want
you to go in the military or Iwish you would, but you know,
hopefully that's turning around.
I think it's all about prideand wearing the uniform.

(12:59):
It's about standards, it'sabout discipline, it's about
standards, it's about discipline.
And when you have that and thepeople that are retired and they
have kids that are growing up,they go yes, this is the
military, I want you to go andjoin and they're going to take
good care of you and you'regoing to have a lot of pride in
wearing that uniform.
And I hope things turn aroundwhere that great source for

(13:23):
recruitment is from people thatpreviously served and so
hopefully we get that going back.
And I just recently saw the ArmyJust recently their recruitment
has just kind of skyrocketedand how that happened.
I think maybe that's becauseyou know the pride and seeing

(13:47):
the changes in the military andthe direction we're going to go.
And I just watched a video thismorning of Secretary of Defense
Hegseth where he was over inGermany doing PT with special
forces.
Now, don't you know that hitshome when you can get out there

(14:08):
and shake the hands of thosethat wear the cloth of our
nation and you're getting downthere and doing squats and
pushups and running with them.
Man, that's just got to give somuch pride to our military.
And then the youngsters thatare out there in high school or
whatever, going to recruiter'soffice they see this and they go

(14:30):
.
I wanna be a part of that.
That's something special, so Ithink it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, special is exactly the word to use, isn't
it?
Special and exceptional?
You're not just like everybodyelse in society when you join
the military.
You are, just by virtue of thatnow, an exceptional person
because you're going to have tomeet standards, you're going to
have to be high on integrity andhonesty, and that's just

(15:01):
something that's not ineverybody that's out there in
the rest of the society.
So that is a big element.
I think the other thing is thatthe family doesn't always get
very much attention.
Sometimes the children, therelatives of people in the

(15:23):
military are a strong source ofthat, as we've discussed.
But they're also still a strongvoice to spread the real time
experiences about what militarylife is about.
And there was an occasion I sawmy wife was visiting with
somebody not too long ago andthey said well, yeah, but you're

(15:44):
just a dependent, you knowyou're not in the military and
you don't know what it's allabout, which got her a little
excited.
But the point there is, thefamily is a big part of
everything that we do and, trustme, nobody goes, as you know,
nobody goes into combat, nobodyis deployed overseas without the

(16:06):
family being there back hometaking care of things.
That's wives, kids, relatives,so they're also a big part of
what we do, which sometimes isnot recognized.
What do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
That is so true, alan .
There's nothing.
We deploy and we work longhours and we work weekends and
so forth, but the family'salways there.
Someone still has to go shop,someone has to take care of the
kids, someone has to mow theyard, you know, and and that
stuff continues even if you'redeployed for several months, you

(16:41):
know.
And so we've got to do thingsalso to take care of the family,
because the family sacrificeswhen you have kids that are
moved every two or three yearsand it's hard for them to
establish relationships and soforth.
And I actually did thecongressional testimony to the
Hask and also the Sask on thefamily, because you can have a

(17:04):
situation where you know whereyou have a kid that's going to
be a senior in high school andthey have this Texas, say, texas
history, and they move to SouthCarolina and they won't accept
the Texas history becausethey're required to have South
Carolina history.

(17:24):
So therefore, maybe they can'tgraduate on time because they're
lacking South Carolina history.
Well, we should not punishfamily members because someone
is serving.
We've got to take those things.
And, in addition, spousesSpouses may have a good job at

(17:46):
one location and now they'reforced to move to another state,
or even overseas.
So they lose their job, theylose their career, and so we've
got to do things to make iteasier for them to be hired,
easier for their accreditationsto be transferred from state to
state and so forth.
So it's not just taking care ofthe military members, taking

(18:08):
care of the family members, fromthe spouse to the children,
because we're all a team, we allgo together and the important
thing is, at the end of the day,when a person goes to their
retirement ceremony, we wantthat family to still be with
them.
So we've got to take care ofthe family all the way along

(18:30):
yeah, and I think that's changedover the years.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
I remember when, when I retired, my wife also got us
certificate certificate of beinga military wife uh, and that's
great kind of recognition Ithink that we have yeah, I
actually created.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know, when I, when I got into the office of
Chief Master Sergeant Air Force,you know I would get little
notes that there's a ChiefMaster Sergeant retiring from
somewhere and I'd write a littlenote thanking them for their
service and everything.
We'd send that.
But I'm going, like you knowwhat Every airman deserves to be

(19:10):
recognized from the ChiefMaster Sergeant of the Air Force
, whether they're a staffsergeant, tech sergeant or chief
.
So I created a certificate fromthe Office of the Chief Master
Sergeant of the Air Force tothank him for the retirement and
everything else.
And so if you retire as a staffSergeant even with a staff

(19:32):
Sergeant with a medicalretirement, you're going to get
a certificate from the currentChief Master Sergeant Air Force.
In addition, the Chief MasterSergeant Air Force also sends
one to the spouse because it's ateam effort.
So I think it's important forthe Chief Master Sergeant of the
Air Force to recognize all theenlisted that are retiring,
including everybody, not justthe Chief Master Sergeant that's

(19:56):
retiring.
And on occasion I would alsoget an officer that's retiring
and says, hey, can I have onefrom you too?
So, yeah, sure, an officerthat's retiring says, hey, can I
have one from you too.
So yeah, sure, we do that, soit's good to recognize all
airmen who contribute, no matterwhat rank they are.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
So that's the thing that's always stuck in my mind,
and particularly since I washalf and half half Air Force and
half Navy force and half Navy.
But in both services, wheneversomebody, particularly the
junior enlisted, were beingpromoted, the one thing we
wanted to make them understandand we acknowledged was the fact
that this is happening becauseof what you've done, the

(20:36):
performance you've had, themerit that you've got and also
the trust that you've now earned.
That's increased because of thenew rank, and I think that's
something that's a littledifferent that we do in the
military than we do back in thecivilian society.
When you get promoted at IBM orAmazon or somewhere else, you
get a little better paycheck,maybe get a job title, but no

(20:59):
one has put as much trust in youfor running a country as you do
in the military when you get apromotion right.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, and that promotion is really.
It's not necessarily whatyou've done in the past, but
it's what we expect you to do inthe future.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yes, and that's why we're doing it.
We're showing you, we've nowgiven you extra trust because we
do expect you to use it.
Yeah Well, so let's go back abit to what's happening today.
We here at STARS have foughtpretty hard to identify things
that we think are not quiteright with the DEI and CRT, the

(21:42):
diversity, equity and inclusionand the critical race theory
that go with the beginning ofthat.
Those are things that arefocused more on external factors
rather than merit and thethings that people do every day
to make the military work.
And that became a problem, aswe all know, and we here at
STARS fought hard to get thatrecognized, and I think that

(22:05):
what's happened now is we'veactually won part of that battle
, but there's probably a littlebit more to go.
You want to talk about that alittle bit, how you saw the
difference from when you gotinto the Air Force in the 70s
and where we've gone now to, orat least recently, where we had
DEI and these other factors thatwere not promoting meritocracy

(22:29):
but actually getting in the waymaybe.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, thank you, alan , and I know this is a sensitive
subject and everything I'll sayhere is just my opinion.
It's not the opinion of theUnited States Air Force, but
it's just my personal opinion.
But you know, the militarywe've never been perfect.
You go back into the Civil War,where we had segregated units.

(22:53):
You know where the black?
You had the black units andthen they weren't allowed to mix
with the white units, and evenup through World War II we even
still had the same.
And then Eisenhower in 1948,you know did away with
segregation and so that you'dhave the military units that

(23:14):
were mixed together.
And I think that was afantastic move.
And then from there, on you know, didn't matter what color you
were, what race you were, didn'tmatter.
You know what color you were,what race you were male, female
you know that you'd servetogether.
Then you know, I came in inJuly of 1974.

(23:35):
And it's pretty interestingbecause I've gone back and I've
looked at some of the data fromthere and in 1974, we probably
had over, you know, 4,000 chiefmaster sergeants in the Air
Force and out of that there wereonly 12 females out of 4,000.

(23:55):
You know so females weren'treally allowed to do much and
they weren't going to achieveany rank or anything at that
point in time to do much, andthey weren't going to achieve
any rank or anything at thatpoint in time.
And the jobs they had females,the jobs they had were jobs just
like administration, working inthe hospital, and we didn't

(24:16):
allow females to really do toomuch.
And you look at the history offemales in our military.
You go back to World War II.
We would not have beensuccessful without females From
Rosie the Riveter across thenation and the job they did.
But we lost over 500 females inWorld War II that were test

(24:37):
pilots here stateside and sothey lost their lives testing
aircraft and so that's reallynot talked about, about the
accomplishments of women, ofwhat they actually did in World
War II to help us to thatvictory.
Now fast forward to my time inthe early 70s.
You may remember we had raceriots, you know.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, we did yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
So we came out and we had, you know, we developed
social actions and you had to goto race relations classes, you
know, and and I didn't quiteunderstand that, because growing
up I yeah, I just was notaccustomed to, you know, race
issues, you know, I mean, youknow I was a big fan of Martin
Luther King and and thatmovement and so forth, but
didn't really see it.

(25:29):
But then through my career, wewere always diverse and through
my career we were always verydiverse and females got the jobs
, a lot more jobs other thanjust the jobs they had back
early, and but the personworking next to me, whether they
were black, asian or it didn'tmatter to me, it did not matter

(25:55):
to me whatsoever, and you knowit was either that on or off
duty.
You know, we played sportstogether, we socialized together
, we, we drank beer together,and so we've always been diverse
.
In my opinion, we've been adiverse military.
So, and then you know so thenyou go into the recent years

(26:21):
where all of a sudden we haveyouI and everyone has to attend
classes.
Then you go to the equity partof it where you have to have
this amount of this race andthis amount of that race.

(26:43):
We're the military, and themilitary should be putting the
best people that as far as theirskills and their capability
into positions, not because ofthe color of their skin or a
quota, but what they have earnedto be there.
And so, whether it's if you'regonna put someone in an F-22 or

(27:11):
an air traffic control tower, itshould be the person that has
earned through the merit systemthat they should be there, and
you should not be puttingsomeone else ahead of someone
that's more qualified justbecause of their race.
So we've always been diverse,and you know, and the and the

(27:34):
thing is, if you have a group ofpeople that are falling behind,
what do you do to get them upthere where they can compete for
those jobs?
And and and I'll go back toanother thing is I think one of
the failures of our country isour education system.

(27:58):
You know.
So, when you have a largeportion of our country that
graduate high school and theycan't even read or they're not
even close to the reading levelwe've got to, especially in
inner cities, we can't continueto push people on to graduate

(28:18):
high school and get a diploma ifthey are not learning.
So when you educate our youngpeople from K through 12, and
then you don't have to worryabout the DEI part of it and the
equity part of it, becauseeveryone's going to be pretty
much educated on the same level.
And we've got to get there, tothat point, to give everybody

(28:42):
the equal opportunity becausetheir education provides them
the quality to be able to get tothose points.
And I think we're far from it.
And you know, back before wehad the Department of Education,
we were ranked number one inthe world and now we're way down

(29:02):
the list 26, 27, 27, somethinglike that.
So you know, say, well, what'sthat got to do with the air
force or military?
I think it has a lot to do withit oh, it does yes you know, so
I I think you know, ed.
You know working on theeducation system and educating
our youth to make them smarterand more prepared when they

(29:24):
graduate high school.
Are they able to pass theentrance test to come into
military?

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Well, sure, because what you're saying is the same
thing I think we've talked aboutbefore.
The military does probably thevery best job of anybody in
training and discipline andmaking sure that people are
noted for their performance.
When you start slacking off onthat, like you say, starting in
schools, but it's also in workand everything else and you can

(30:02):
say, even with things likefighting crime, if you're not
disciplined, you're not serious,you're not results oriented and
you're not training peoplecorrectly to do the job that
they have, you're going to short.
You're going to come up shortevery time, right?

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Absolutely.
You know, and you know being inthe military, you know it's.
I don't want to be seen as justanother JOB where you get up
and you go to work.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
No one wants that.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Being in the military is something that's in your
heart.
You love it.
It's a part of your history andheritage, of the branch of
service that you're in and thatyou know you.
It becomes part of you themilitary.
But I think a really importantpart of that is our image to the
country.
Like I said, only about fourand a half percent of the

(30:54):
country's ever served.
So when the country, theAmerican citizen or people from
other country look at our peoplein uniform in the United States
of America, do they haverespect?
Or do they look at us and go,wow, man, that person is
overweight.
I can't believe they're inuniform.

(31:15):
They look sloppy.
So how we present ourselves inuniform to the public is super,
super important.
Do they have confidence in us?
Do they have faith in us thatif we were to go to a war
against you name a country if wewere to go to war, do we have

(31:36):
faith that we are prepared, thatwe look the part, we act the
part.
We look the part, we act thepart.
And when you have sometimes Idon't know why we make uniforms
so big you know at some point intime you've got to go.
You know if we at some point intime, if a person can't fit in
the uniform this size, then theydon't belong in the military.

(31:58):
So it's really important thatwe do that.
And so it's the image, it's thestandards, it's the discipline,
it's those things that we'velearned in basic training from
our military traininginstructors, the same things you
learn in ROTC, the same thingsyou learn in our service
academies.
That should follow you the restof your lives in the military.

(32:22):
And that's standards, it'sdiscipline.
You are in the military andthat if you it's discipline, you
are in the military.
And that if you're told to dosomething unless it's an
unlawful order and I got to tellyou in my almost 31 years of
service I never had an unlawfulorder, you know so yes, that
would mean yeah, everything Iwas told to do, I went, I went

(32:43):
and did it because it was myleadership.
Said go do this and I did it.
And I did it to the best of mycapability.
And I got to tell you, when Iwas the PACAF command chief, one
of my heroes, general Hester, Ilove him to death, a great

(33:05):
airman.
He said hey, chief.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
I work with him too.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
He said number 14, gerald Murray, he's retiring.
I said yes, sir, I know that.
He said, well, you need to benumber 15.
I said no, I don't.
I got a lot of things.
I want to get finished here inPACF.
He said, well, I'm putting yourname in anyway, I putting your
name in anyway.
I said whatever, so I'm goingback.

(33:30):
So it ended up.
I got an interview with GeneralMosley, a great man, chief of
staff of the Air Force.
So I flew the Pentagon in myservice dress and I didn't do
any studying or anything else, Ijust decided that I was going
to go there.
I was going to report, justlike Tech Sergeant taylor, my
drill sergeant, taught me how toreport in basic training.
So I went there and and Ireported to general uh mosley

(33:51):
and said sir, chief mckinley,reporting is ordered.
And he said so we sat down.
He said, chief, what do youthink I mean?
That was the question I got.
He said what do you think I'mgoing like?
Oh my God, what a question.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
So think about what right.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, exactly, I'm thinking well, this was 2006,
early 2006.
I'm going like, well, theBuckeyes are going to be really
good this year.
You know, and I said well, sir,I got to be honest with you.
My goal has never been to bethe chief master sergeant in the
Air Force.
My goals have always beensimple Whatever job the Air

(34:28):
Force gives me, I'm going to dothat job to the best of my
capability and I'm going totreat every single person I come
in contact with dignity andrespect.
And I'm going to do those otherthings I should be doing, like
my professional militaryeducation, my physical fitness,
my on and off duty education,all those other things I should
be doing as an airman.

(34:49):
I'm going to do those betterthan my peers and I'm going to
leave it up to my leadership todecide what they want to do with
me.
He looked at me.
He said damn, that's a goodanswer, chief.
I didn't want to be the Chiefof Staff, so with that, I ended
up getting hired to be an airmanalongside General Mosley.

(35:10):
But that's my message.
It's just you know, be humble,go out there and whatever job
you have to do, give it yourbest effort, do it a little bit
better than your peers and youknow, and if you doing all that
and you're doing the rightthings, you're going to be
successful.

(35:30):
So, whatever job you're in,whether you're in the military,
whether you're in your civilianlife, but put in a little bit of
that extra effort.
You look at the great sportsathletes, michael Jordan, etc.
And Kobe Bryant man theypracticed.
They were the first one in thegym, man, they practiced.
They were the first one in thegym, the last one out.
Well, that stayed with militaryservice also.

(35:52):
You know, and I remember workingon the A-10 aircraft, I would
take the Dash 1 home so that Icould learn as much about the
A-10 as I possibly could youknow, I possibly could you know
and uh, whatever job you have,whether it's in contracting or
whatever go that little extramile just to be a little bit

(36:15):
better in the job than than uh,than everybody else, and then
you share that knowledge too.
It's not it's not like I'mgoing to keep this all to myself
.
You make everybody else aroundyou better.
You bring everybody up.
Your goal is not to be youstanding on a mountain and
everyone and looking down oneverybody, but you're all on top
of the mountain and you're allsharing good ideas and you're
making the air force and yourunit, your squadron, better but

(36:38):
I mean it.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
It doesn't.
Time goes by, for for guys likeus pretty quickly, but I can
still remember back in the earlydays going through basic
training in officer trainingschool and it was a matter of
now refocusing from you as anindividual to you as a member of
a team, and some of that iskind of erasing some of that and

(37:02):
getting people back to a levelfield where they can now grow
into something that isteam-oriented and it's more of a
larger picture thing, and Ithink that's what's been
happening today.
The focus has gone back tofocusing on individual needs,
individual qualities and things,to the detriment of the team

(37:24):
that we're trying to build inthe military, and I'm happy to
see us, I think, going back inthat direction again.
But, as you say, it's all thosethings, it's training, it's
discipline, it's commitment,which is a word that sometimes I
find missing.
You're committing yourself todoing something bigger than you
and something for a larger cause, which is defending your

(37:47):
country, your way of life.
That's not something, again,you see in a corporate side, but
I'm happy to see, I think, thatwe're starting to go back to
that a little bit.
And so what are your thoughtson where we go now that some of
this is now starting to maybeswing back in that direction,
are we on the right path?

(38:08):
Do we here, particularly atSTARS, have some of the tools
that we need now to go forwardand help that?

Speaker 2 (38:16):
You know, I hope so.
You look at STARS and you lookat.
You know what our mission wasor is still in our mission
statement, dei and CRT, and alsoto the military members that
were kicked out because theyrefused the vaccine.

(38:39):
Well, all those are beingreversed right now by the
current administration.
So you can say yes, those areall positives and you can say
success, but there's, I thinkthere's still a lot of work to
do and how you implement allthat stuff.
So I think that STARS can behelpful in in helping how do we

(39:01):
implement that.
You know, when you, when youtalk about you talk about all
the military members that werekicked out because they refused
the vaccine, and now we're goingto restate them into the rank
that they were and we're goingto give them back pay.
Well, that in itself is not asimple little thing when you
think about it.
You were an E8, and we're goingto give you a rank back.

(39:24):
You can't put them in that sameposition that they were in,
because that position is alreadyfilled.
So where do you put them?
And maybe they got out of themilitary and then they have this
really nice corporate job andeverything else, but then you're
going to pay them all this backpay, even while they had a
civilian job.
Okay, there's a lot ofquestions with with with that

(39:49):
also.
And then you have anotheraspect that you know you had 8
000 and some that were kickedout, but then you had a whole
bunch I mean you talkinghundreds of thousands who
actually took the vaccine andmaybe had multiple doses of the
vaccine.
And then there's actuallydocumented vaccine injuries.

(40:10):
How do you take care of them?
You know that's a big question.
How do you take care of thosethat are vaccine injured, with
myocarditis or whatever andblood clots, and that's
something they have to deal withfor the rest of their lives.
So, uh, I think, with theinformation of how these changes

(40:31):
that we're going through, Ithink stars can be a big help,
much like, maybe, the randcorporation.
You ask them for advice andstudies or whatever that you
have a lot of military expertsor history who belong on stars,
who work on stars, so you have awealth of knowledge there that

(40:51):
you can draw from.
That can help the Secretary ofDefense or to how do you wade
through the waters to make thesethings successful.
So I think it's a great thingof where we are, but we kind of
have to rethink ourselves ofwhat is the future.
You don't want to dissolve, youwant to go ahead and still be

(41:15):
something that can help themilitary evolve into even better
and better and better, and bean institution that the
Secretary of Defense, chief ofStaffs and so forth draw from,
or can maybe say hey, can youlook into this for us?
Give us some recommendations,and we can do that, probably at

(41:37):
a better price than what they goout to other places and do this
.
So I think it's something thatthe leadership here at STARS
needs to look at and say wheredo we go from here?
How can we be successful?
How can we make our countrymore successful?
By giving advice and directionand educating the public.

(42:00):
I mean, I think that one of thethings we can possibly do is
something that you're familiarwith is produce some videos of
our heritage that we can educatethe public with to give the
country that pride in what wehave, because I guarantee you

(42:20):
you just talked about the candybomber I guarantee you, 99.9% of
the country has no idea who thecandy bomber is.
So things like that we can dovery easily, that we can produce
and put out there on YouTube orwhatever that can help the

(42:43):
public know where we've comefrom and where we're going.
And so we just got to redefineour mission statement and
possibly help with the successesthat we already have in DEI,
crt and the vaccine, help withhow do we implement those and

(43:03):
give advice if requested to givethat advice.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
So we've been good at identifying problems, finding
solutions, and I think we'reonto that.
But you're right, there'ssomething more there that needs
to be done to make sure that thepopulation understands how
important the work is and whatwe're doing.
Um, you know, I mean, we used tomake movies in hollywood, uh,

(43:30):
about war heroes, and that'salways been a big thing.
But some of the heroes arereally the average everyday guys
and gals doing the work and andand and footing the, the
weapons on airplanes and gettingeverything ready, or on a ship,
making sure their fire drillsare working, that you don't risk

(43:51):
the ship being sunk witheverybody on it, and so that's
all the same thing.
It's that team effort that goesinto doing that, and I think
you're right.
I think there's probably anopportunity there for us to get
more into that kind ofrecognition and education that
goes with the elements of beingin the military, and that
doesn't mean that we avoidthings like the arduous work

(44:14):
that has to be done, the dangerthat's there sometimes and, yes,
people do get hurt andsometimes die in the process of
doing that but that only adds tothe value of a service that we
all have, and I think that'ssomething that we'll probably
get into a little bit but Ithink that also you know from

(44:35):
stars, it's not a popularitycontest.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
You know, some of the things that you know stars and
leadership has put out there isis not popular, uh, may not get
a lot of credit or whatever, butuh, you know to do the right
thing.
It's not being a leader.
It's not a popularity contest,even for me putting my name next

(45:01):
to stars.
I'm sure that there's a lot ofpeople saying, chief, what the
hell are you doing?
You know, but for me I can siton the sidelines and go, oh,
this sucks or whatever.
But are you willing to put yourname out there and do something
about it, or you just want tosit on the side and complain?

(45:22):
I choose to be part of thesolution versus part of the
problem.
So I think that, moving forward, we should not shy away from
difficult subjects, that if it'ssomething that's out there,
unpopular, it's like, well,we're not going to touch that.

(45:43):
If it's something that we canhelp with, it's something that
we can study.
If it's something that we canprovide advice and solutions to
the Secretary of Defense or thepublic, we've got to attack it.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Well, let me ask and that's exactly, I think, where
we're going to probably end upgoing.
Let me ask you this Part ofwhat we do and advocate is also
part of what are issues today intoday's modern military, and
that has to do with integrity,accountability, strong
leadership and being thecaretaker of the history and

(46:23):
reputation of what we've done inthe military.
Those are some pretty admirablegoals.
Do you think we're gettingthere today?

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Well, I hope so.
You know, I think that we'vegotten away from looking at our
history as much as we've had inthe past.
I think that the young peopledon't, and you know, educate uh

(47:07):
the younger military members, oreven some of the older military
members of where we came from.
Uh, our history and ourheritage of each branch of
service is so important when you, when you talk about a marine
and you talk about iwo jima Imean I guarantee you the marines
know what.
Some history about Iwo Jima?
You know, and oh yes.

(47:27):
So when you talk to an airman,you talk about the sacrifices
that we made flying B-17s inEurope and the amount of airmen
that died in Europe, and Ibelieve we had more airmen
killed in World War II than theNavy and Marines combined.
You know the losses wereincredible flying those B-17s.

(47:50):
Well, does the average airmanhave any clue on what they had
to go through flying those B-17s?
At 30,000, 35,000 feet?
It was 40 degrees below zero.
They were getting frostbitten.
While in this missions andthey're trying to make 25
missions, you know.

(48:11):
And then you, the shell of theof the b-17s was super thin
metal.
The shrapnel would just goright through them.
In addition to that, they had,you know, a lot of them dives on
hypoxia, because you had anoxygen line that would go from
the cockpit all the way to theback and if that line got
crimped the person in the backwould die of hypoxia.

(48:33):
So the pilot had to, every fewseconds, get on the mic and just
check in the back to make surethat they were still alive, you
know.
So does the average airman haveany clue about that?
And I think we should know that,because that gives you pride.
When you have that uniform on,it says US Air Force man.

(48:54):
Think of those that came beforeyou and everything that they
sacrificed.
So I think we need to do more.
I don't want to get away fromwhere we came from, and a lot of
times you, you also go, alan,you go.
Well, well, let's, let's.
I think this is something weshould try and you go.
We tried that 20 years ago, youknow, and it didn't work yeah,

(49:18):
so, yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, you're right well, you goback and you you don't forget
those leaders from the pastbecause they have all this
knowledge of what worked andwhat didn't work.
And it's good to go back andtalk to them to find out that
history, so that you don't makethe same mistake, maybe, that

(49:40):
they made before and you don'tspend a tremendous amount of
money.
That's going down a path thatyou should not be going down,
that path.
So, uh, learning from the ourhistory and keeping those
leaders from the past alive andcurrent, I think is a big help
to each branch of service tomake sure we're going forward

(50:02):
and not going backward.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, and that view of history has got some pretty
remarkable people.
One of them that I got to befriends with and work with was
General Robin Olds.
Robin Olds and his vicecommander, chappy James, or

(50:29):
Batman and Robin they used tocall them.
But here's a black fighterpilot colonel, a white fighter
pilot colonel, both of them atthe top of their game and they
had all the guys flying withthem.
All the troops working for themloved them because they were
true heroes, but in the sensethat that they were inspiring to
the people who were workingwith them they weren't in charge

(50:53):
of them and going off and beingdistant, that that effect of
leadership is so strong.
But, yes, those, those are thekind of people that we ought to
be able to make something for,you know, whether it's a movie
or documentary or whatever thatfocuses on the benefits of that
to service today.
Actually, with Robin Olds, whenI was building the museum at

(51:18):
Pearl Harbor a few years ago,shortly before Robin died, he
did a video for me as theintroduction in the museum and
in that he said the things thathappened at Pearl Harbor were
instrumental in him being ableto go off and fight in World War
II and all.

(51:38):
But he was born right therewhere we're building the museum
at Pearl Harbor on Fort Island.
His dad was in the Air Corps,so that got him in, but then he
carried that story forward inwhat he did, which is now
repeated in today's Air Force,and those are the kind of things
that don't die.

(51:59):
Those voices can come from thepast and be a marker for us to
be able to say, okay, that'swhere we were then, but isn't
that the same thing that we'restill doing today?
And shouldn't we be as bold andas courageous?
And sometimes the mavericksthat get things done and lead
people that way that they did,those are some marvelous stories

(52:22):
.
We'll find those things todaystill in museums.
Those are some marvelousstories.
We'll find those things todaystill in museums.
But it's also out there now more.
I think increasingly there aredocumentaries and films and
series that are being done onsome of that.
But I think you're right.
I think we need to get our newSecretary of Defense focused on
that and get that brought morebroadly out there and do that

(52:44):
Sometimes.
I've always thought thatsometimes the services are a
little bit too reluctant to sayanything, not wanting to be
braggadocio or viewed as being,uh, celebrities and special.
It's not.
It's about our people and aboutour, our, our heroism and

(53:04):
making a country strong andsurviving, so I think those are
some pretty good ways that wecan go to.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Yeah, you know, like I said before, leadership is not
a popularity contest.
But, you know, sometimesleaders just got to step out
there and do what's right andget the attention of people.
And I remember general focus onas, as you may recall, I think
it was 1997 or whatever we hadthe helicopter shoot down and uh

(53:34):
, yeah, you know, and uh, thatwas big.
And then general focus on, um,that wasn't, it was probably
1990, not your fogerman,fogerman, yeah, fogerman, I
think that was 1995 or whatever.
But anyway, you know, generalFogerman came out with some
tapes that every airman had tolook at these to get back the

(53:59):
standards and discipline and allthose other things.
And so I was the first sergeantback then and I had to make
sure that every single airman inthe squadron actually sat down
and looked at these tapes.
Now, that was man, that was 30years ago.
And now we're going basicallyback full circle to that time

(54:22):
right there of getting back tostandards and discipline and all
that other stuff.
And basically all you have todo is go get that VHS tape from
General Fogelman and resurfacethat.
It's the same exact message.
So it's just bold leadership.
And you know, in leadership,like I said, you know it's, you

(54:46):
know it's goes back to leadersand you think about how the hell
on military bases do we havedrag queens in our clubs, in
front of our children?
And I can guarantee you itwould take one minute for the
chief of staff for each branchof service to say no drag queens

(55:09):
on any military base.
Boom, it's done, it's done.
It would never happen.
It would take one sentence fromthe chief of staff from each
branch of service or thesecretary of defense, and it
would never happen.
But somehow it kept on beingpromoted that we need drag
queens.
We think it's important and wehad senior leaders who were

(55:34):
trying to promote and getacceptance for drag queens on
our military installations.
Now, how the hell does thathappen?
That has nothing to do withcombat capability.
That has nothing to do withcombat capability.
That has nothing to do with theauthority, it has nothing to do
with training, has nothing todo with attention.
So it's all about leadership.

(55:55):
Leadership focus on rightthings and if you have leaders
out there that are are promotingdrag queens on our bases and
all this other stuff, they'renot the leaders we need.
You know.
Go do something else so.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
So what happens, though, when, when you have that
kind of breach of leadershipand you also have some integrity
issues that go with it?
But the worst thing isaccountability too.
When something goes wrong orthings are not the way they
should be, those are the thingsthat destroy the confidence of
the troops.
Right Back when you were like ayoung E6, did that occur to you

(56:38):
then?
That your leaders, if they'renot being accountable and
they're not being good at whatthey do, that that's something
that you can't look up to.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Well, you know, back on, when I was an E6 and so
forth, I was focused on not bigAir Force, I was focused on what
do I need to do with the winglevel, at the squadron level, at
the flight level, you know?
And so that's what I wasfocused on, because you had
trust that your senior leadersin in the Air Force that they

(57:11):
would do always doing the rightthing.
But you know, you know, and Igotta tell you, even in my young
career, we realized that wewere making mistakes.
Where, when I was at SeymourJohnson, we had topless dancers
at the club, it was back in 1974, 1975.
We had topless dancers and youtell airmen that today and they

(57:34):
go oh my, I can't believe it.
Yeah, but that happened and themilitary recognized that is not
the right thing to do and theybanned it, they did away with it
.
And so we have not always beenperfect, but we recognize that
we're doing something weshouldn't be doing and we

(57:54):
correct it and we go forward.
And then I get back to thewhole thing about the drag
queens.
How did that happen?
And that's almost like goingback to 1974, 1975 and doing
things that we shouldn't bedoing.
It's all about leadership.
So hopefully we've learned ourlesson.

(58:15):
We've got a new direction fromthe Secretary of Defense that
we're about lethality, we'reabout combat capability and so
forth.
Anything that detracts fromthat we should not be doing.
And also it's about putting ourtax dollars where the tax
dollars should be going andeliminating all the waste.

(58:37):
I just saw a video I think Isent this to you yesterday.
Congress shows a little bag ofbushings.
This little plastic bag ofbushings like this big cost
$90,000, where you can go to ahardware store and buy the same
bag for $10, you know.
And so when you have industrythat are just taking it to our

(59:04):
military and cost an enormousamount of money for things that
just make a tremendous amount ofprofit from, we've got to
change that.
Now our military budget issomewhere around $950 billion,
somewhere around there.
Probably 35% to 40% of that paysfor personnel.
So you've got a tremendous coston personnel.

(59:26):
And then you've got to thinkabout how much money are we
spending on $90,000 bushings andthat's just on bushings.
What are we doing for enginesand everything else and tanks,
and how much is the militaryindustrial complex taking it to
us and how much of that $950billion is just profit for these

(59:51):
companies?
You look at China maybe theirmilitary budget's $300 billion,
but their personnel cost isnowhere near 35% to 40%.
They're probably not payingtheir people very much at all
and if they're buying thebushings they're probably
getting those same bushings for$5 versus $90,000.

(01:00:12):
So their $300 billion on theirmilitary budget is probably
equal to our $950 billion whenyou talk about what is actually
going toward combat capability.
So I think there's a lot thatour country needs to do to get
all that in line and it's notabout the military industrial

(01:00:33):
complex just continuing to getwealthy, but they should be a
part of making our military thebest it possibly can be and give
us the prices of what theactual price is.
I mean, I'm sure there's alwaysgoing to be a little room for
profit, but don't take us to thecleaners, because that is
taxpayer dollars and whentaxpayers are paying for that

(01:00:56):
$950 billion, it should all beaccounted for and hopefully
Secretary of Defense also canget an audit in the Pentagon
where we can actually pass anaudit on what our budget's
actually going for.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
And I think people would be pretty astounded at
some of the things that comefrom that.
For instance, remember whenthey were contracting for the
new Air Force One and it wasgoing to be I don't know five
hundred billion dollars orsomething and but but Trump
opposed that and in Lockheed,right away came back okay, okay

(01:01:33):
okay, if you don't want to haveit for being a billion dollars,
how about we do it for, oh,maybe five hundred, five hundred
million?
Oh yeah, we can do that so wellthey.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So it's just that attitude, right yeah, we, we
need all these companies.
It's not like I want to do away.
We need them.
We need them, we positively doand we need them to produce, we
need them to give us the weaponswe need and so forth.
But don't go a thousand percentoverboard on the prices of

(01:02:05):
things and gouge our military.
Remember, it's just like thevery expensive toilet seats in
the past.
Well, that has not changed, youknow, and I remember back when
I was working on the A-10, Imean, a washer cost a tremendous
amount of bucks and I couldhave gone to Tad's Hardware and
bought the same thing for 10cents.

(01:02:30):
So hopefully, this whole thingfor our military, it's not just
about each military member, it'snot just about each leader,
it's about the whole country,including the military
industrial complex, gettinginvolved to help shape our
military to be the mostcompetent, the fiercest and

(01:02:55):
taking care of taxpayers'dollars possible.
But when we go to war, we don'twant to go win the war 51 to 49
.
We want to win it 100 to 0.
We don't want to lose Americanlives and hopefully that we
don't have to go to war.
But we're so powerful and socompetent and when the public

(01:03:16):
looks at us, when ourcompetitors look at us, they go,
wow, they've got their shittogether.
We do not want to go up againstthem because we know we're
going to get our butts kicked,and that's what we need to do,
and right now.
You know, I looked up last nightour mission capable rates and I
think you know like we're F-35,f-22, probably hovering around

(01:03:39):
50%, you know.
And then you look at our otherolder aircraft, you know tankers
and so forth.
You know we want them up around80 percent or whatever.
So we've got to do things toget our mission capable rates up
higher, you know.
And a lot of that is is alsoit's it's not only the supply

(01:04:03):
system, the spare parts andeverything else, but it's also
competent aircraft mechanics.
And I think we have a shortageof aircraft mechanics out there.
And you say, well, you know,it's not easy to replace.
You know an eight-year staffsergeant, you know who's been
working on a jet.

(01:04:25):
It takes eight years to replacethat staff sergeant with that
experience.
So we've got to make sure thatwe put the right people in the
right positions and we havethose aircraft maintainers and
so forth out there dedicated totheir jobs and they're fully
manned so that we can turn theseaircraft around and get them

(01:04:47):
back to mission capable.
And so it's the big thing.
It's not just the person youput in the cockpit, but it's
that person out there turningthe wrenches to make sure we
take care of them, get themmotivated, get them properly
trained and we retain them.
We can't afford them for themto step out, because when they

(01:05:09):
step out we lose all thatexperience and then it takes a
long time for someone else togain that type of experience.
So getting our Air Force andour mission capable rates back
up and our aircraft ready to gofight and fly and fight, I think
, is a super, super importantpart of what our air force needs

(01:05:30):
to do, and 100 I know ourleadership is is looking to that
and doing it.
But uh, you know, right nowwe've got to do better well,
we've.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
We've tried and part of that has been to find ways to
get realistment bonusesincreased and other pay and
benefits, housing, those otherthings for families better, and
I think that's worked to somedegree.
But it kind of comes right backto what you and I are talking
about earlier.
It's the commitment on a partof the individual to pursue a

(01:06:02):
career, not just a couple ofyears, and to pursue a career
not just a couple of years andgetting trained and then going
off into civilian life.
It's it's the focus on makingsure we retain the best people,
as you say, for as long as wecan, hopefully for a whole
career.
But part of that goes back tothe, the commitment and the
inspiration for them to stayother than just for pay and some

(01:06:24):
benefits, and that's where Ithink we can get some good work
we can do still.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
You know, I had a dental appointment just a couple
of days ago and the young lady,the hygienist, that was
cleaning my teeth, and she wastalking to me and she said, my
husband spent four years in theAir Force, and I thought, wow.
So we had a nice conversationabout his career and they had a
couple of kids and she wassaying that when they got out of

(01:06:50):
the Air Force after four years,you know that they were kind of
shocked at how much things coston the outside and everything
and the things that they weremissing.
Because I think a lot of airmen, you know, and I and Chief
Behnken came out with thebenefits fact sheet, which was
brilliant, which was brilliant.

(01:07:13):
But a lot of airmen choose toget out of the military and they
have no, they don't reallyrealize that it's not just what
they see on their leave andearning statement, the money
there, but all those otherthings that you have the
commissary, the BX, the fitnesscenter, the medical, all these
other things.
There's a lot of money that youdon't realize that's there

(01:07:34):
until you no longer have them.
And I can preach about thisbecause in 1977, when President
Carter was downsizing themilitary, I got out.
I got out for four and a halfyears and I was outside the base
at and at Seymour Johnson andGoldsboro and I'm going like me,

(01:07:56):
and I can't go to the gymanymore, I'm not in the softball
leagues, I can't take my, Idon't have the medical, I can't
go put to the golf course, Imean, and all these things that
I would just I took for grantedthat weren't there.
And so when I came back in theAir Force in 1982, I was

(01:08:17):
dedicated.
I knew I wanted to be an airmanfor life and so, whatever job
they were going to give me, Iwas going to do the best that I
possibly could.
And so we got to make sure that, when an airman and when that
family is deciding on whether ornot to stay in, that we provide
them all the facts you know,face to face of okay, we want

(01:08:39):
you to be successful.
This is your decision, but makean educated decision on all the
benefits that you're no longergoing to have and, if you choose
to go out and do something else, thank you for serving our
nation, thank you for everythingthat you've done, but this is
an educated decision that you'remaking.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
And an important part of that is the spouse, who
probably is going through thesame thing.
Right, if they're married,they're thinking about the same
thing.
Can I still do the same thingsI'm used to doing?
Am I going to have the securitywhen my husband's off doing
something else that I've got inthe military?
I think those are someimportant things we can still
emphasize.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Yeah, I think, when you're talking about the
retention, you want to retainthe family and so you can't
forget about the family, youcan't forget about the kids.
You got to make sure the schoolsystems are good, you got to
make sure the housing is good onoff base or whatever the
opportunities, and you got totake care of the whole family.

(01:09:45):
And when you do events at thesquadron level, I mean include
the family.
You know, and uh, it's the if,the if, the if the wife is not
happy, you know it's, it's not agood thing.
So uh, yeah, exactly right, orthe spouse, because the wife,
the, the female, could be theactive duty member and the male

(01:10:07):
be, so it goes vice versa yesyou got to take care of the
whole family but but that thatjust reinforces the the team
nature of the family involved init.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
If they're in it with the member, yeah, they're a big
part of that same team rightyeah, well, so you know I'm so,
I'm so thankful.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
I'm just a small town boy from Ohio, population of
3000.
And I've been around the world,I've been in the Oval Office,
I've flown on Air Force One.
And to think of being a smalltown country boy from where I
grew up, I grew up poor, but theAir Force has given me

(01:10:53):
opportunities.
If you do the right things, ifyou keep focused and you do the
right things, the only personthat's going to prevent you from
being successful is the personyou see in the mirror.
Now.
You may not go on to be an 06Colonel or Brigadier General or
chief master in the air force,or even a chief, but if you
serve your country for fouryears, eight years, 20 years, 30

(01:11:18):
years, you've done somethingspectacular that you know 95% of
the country has not done.
You know.
So, uh, I'm just so gratefulfor the opportunities and the
friends that I have made and thefriends I still have, the
friends I still communicate inthe military, and I'm just so

(01:11:38):
thankful.
I'm not special, I'm notanything more than any other
airman.
I was just lucky along the waythat I got promoted and I got
put in the position, and once Iwas put into that position as
the chief master of the AirForce put in the position and
once I was put into thatposition as a chief master of
the Air Force, I just tried todo the right thing every day and

(01:12:00):
take care of airmen and work mybutt off, and I did that up
until the last day in the office.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
So as we kind of close out our session here,
chief, if you got a message fora young person out there that
may be searching for somethingin life they want to do, that's
going to make them kind ofspecial and joining the military
, what would you say to them?

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Well, you know, I can just say that one of the things
that I did in my militarycareer I was an observer.
I did in my military career.
I was an observer.
I always watch people and Iwatch people of how they treated
other people.
I watched what they did on offduty and if you think that your

(01:12:46):
airmen aren't watching how manybeers you're having, whatever
they are, if you're telling offcolor jokes that you shouldn't
be doing, they're payingattention.
So I paid, I watched everybodyand I'd look at people leaders
or subordinates that were doinggreat things.
I took a piece of that.
I said, okay, I'm going to putthat in my toolbox.

(01:13:08):
Then I'd watch other people dothings that were negative and I
said that's not part of me, I'mnever going to do that.
So I learned I never had onespecific person that a mentor.
I think everybody was my mentor, from good or bad.
So I think that for youngpeople, so I think that for

(01:13:37):
young people, come out and findsomebody that you admire and try
to follow their track and whatthey did and how they act, how
they treat people.
I think success is all aboutrelationships and it's all about
people and how you take care ofpeople, how you treat them.
I think kindness goes a longway.
You know, I was a firstsergeant for 10 years and I just
absolutely loved being a firstsergeant.
But that's all about people.

(01:13:58):
And and I love being aroundpeople, I love to joke and have
a good time with them uh, goplay sports with them, uh.
But then there's also don'tmiss I always said don't mistake
my smile and my calm demeanoras a sign of weakness.
You know, because I was alwaysabout standards, I was always
about discipline, I was alwaysabout military justice and all

(01:14:20):
those things.
So you can have all thosethings, but still go out and pat
your people on the back and getto know them.
And I think one of the thingsthat was that made me successful
is I got to know my people.
You know I would walk aroundand I'd ask someone, you know,
are you married?

(01:14:41):
What's your wife's name?
How many kids do you have?
Do they play sports?
And then I would come back andtalk to whatever and I'd say,
hey, how's your wife doing?
Or doing, or you know, I and Iwould put down their birthdays,
you know, so I, I'd say, hey,happy birthday, get back to work
.
But it's all about relationships, so that you know, if you have,

(01:15:02):
if you go out there as a leaderand you develop the
relationships with your people,and if that person is having
marriage issues or financialissues or whatever, and they're
having problems, they'll cometalk to you and they'll say, man
, boss, I'm having some issues,and then you get them help,
whether it's going to CHAPA andwhether it's going to financial
counseling or maybe even goingto the emergency room.

(01:15:23):
But you take care of yourpeople and but if you don't know
anything about them and aperson is possibly suicidal,
they're going through problemsand you don't know the first
thing about them.
Only thing you know about isyou want them to come to work,
you want them to show up on time, you want them to pass their PT
test.
That's all you want from them.
If they have a problem, they'renot going to come to you,

(01:15:46):
they're not going to come andsay, hey, I need help, you know.
So all of a sudden, somethingnegative happens to him and you
go wow, I didn't know thesethings were going on with Johnny
.
Of course you didn't, becauseyou never took the time to get
to know your people.
So get to know your people, haverelationships with them, but
they're positive, strongrelationships and you still hold

(01:16:08):
them to high standards.
If you set your standards low,they're going to reach them,
they're going to stay down therelow.
But if you set really highstandards but first you have to
have the high standards foryourself you have to represent
in everything that you do, theway you talk, the way you act,
the way you wear your uniform,your physical fitness you have

(01:16:28):
to have those personal highstandards and when you do that,
you can go out there and you tohave those personal high
standards, and when you do that,you can go out there and you
can hold people to highstandards.
But your goal is to make themsuccessful.
Make them successful and you dothat by caring about them, to
talk to them, to get to knowthem and to teach them.
You know so, um, it's all aboutrelationships.

(01:16:50):
And so for the young people,it's for the young people coming
up man, look at those peoplethat you admire and take those
nuggets from them so that youcan be a better airman, that you
can be a better person.
And those people that you'reout there seeing that you know
that are just doing crazy stuff.
Take those two and say thatwill never be in my toolbox.

(01:17:13):
So that's what I did as a youngairman.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
As.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
I saw people I'm going like there's no way in the
world I'm going to be like that.
But I saw other people that I'mgoing like, wow, I admire that
person so much and even evenwhen I was chief master sergeant
of the air force, I mean Iwould go visit airmen around the
world and I would come acrossairmen first class and I'm going

(01:17:37):
like, oh my God, this person isincredible.
I wish I was as good as that.
I wish I was as good as thatperson.
You know, you know, uh, we havejust incredible airmen out
there.
And uh, you know, and and so,um, you know, we have just
incredible airmen out there.
And you know, and so you know,even though I was the chief, I'm

(01:17:57):
going like, wow, man, that's.
You know, it's very humbling togo out there and see all these
people and these airmen and howgreat they are.
You know, and I'm just me, Idon't know why the hell I'm here
, but you know, I'm thankfulI've got the same question.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
I'm't know why the hell I'm here, but you know I'm
thankful I've got the samequestion.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
I'm going to do the best I can, since I'm here, you
know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
Well, well, chief, listen you're.
You've got such an amazingstory that covers more than 30
years and you've been from thebottom to the top, but it's a
perfect example, as you say, ofworking with people, getting to
know the value and work, and youknow whether it's working on

(01:18:39):
aircraft or flying them, or youknow, working in a personnel
office.
It is all very special work andI want to thank you so much for
being a part of the Air Forcehistory as number 15 Chief
Master, sergeant of the AirForce.
I think that's an amazingaccomplishment, and thanks for
being a part of what we're doinghere at STARS, as well as a

(01:19:02):
member of our board of directors.
It's an important mission and Ithink it just extends, as you
say, what you were doing forthose important years in the Air
Force, and I'm happy to havespent a few years in the Air
Force and then some in the Navy,and we share some of those same
things about how we look atlife here, and I'm happy to have
had you with us.

(01:19:23):
Thank you for being here and toour audience, we'll do some
more of this with some more ofour people, both from STARS and
other people who have beennotable in the military.
I'm still working on gettingSecretary of Defense Pete
Hegseth involved.
We're getting him involved inan effort we're doing in Texas

(01:19:44):
here in June, which is thecelebration of volunteer
military in Texas.
He was going to be here beforehe got appointed as Secretary of
Defense.
I'm still working on finding away to get him out here anyway.
So, rodney, when we have thathappen, I hope to get you out
here for that too.
That's 7th of June this year atthe Alamo and the Menger Hotel.

(01:20:10):
So more of that to come for ouraudience.
Anyway, thanks, sir, for beingwith us today, to our audience,
thank you for being a member or,if you are, or at least a
visitor here to Stars andStripes.
Thanks, and we'll see you onanother day.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Alan, thank you for having me today and thank you
for doing all these podcastshaving me today, and and thank
you for doing all these podcasts.
They're all very important andI wish you and your family and
the audience all the best.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
god bless well, thanks and god bless you, sir,
and to our audience another day.