Preserving Military Excellence through Leadership and Unity with Tom Burbage and Bruce Davey of the Calvert Task Group

Join STARRS & Stripes podcast with host CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret, for an inspiring conversation with leaders of the Calvert Task Group: Naval Academy graduates Captain Tom Burbage, US Navy ret, and Lieutenant Commander Bruce Davey, US Navy ret, as they all share their remarkable journeys shaped by deep-rooted family legacies in military service. 

From Burbage’s childhood dreams sparked by naval officers to his impactful career at Lockheed Martin, and Davey's exhilarating experience flying with the Blue Angels and his transition to a successful aviation consultancy, as well as Palmer's career as a F-4 "Wild Weasel" in the Air Force to becoming a Naval aviator, you'll find their stories and insights interesting. This episode explores the lasting influence of the "Greatest Generation" on military and societal values, and the ever-present need for readiness in the face of evolving domestic and global threats.

Covered in this episode are the pressing issues of today’s military recruitment and retention challenges amidst shifting cultural landscapes. Burbage and Davey discuss the erosion of the elite, motivating culture that once drew recruits into the armed forces, and how financial incentives alone are not enough to maintain a capable and motivated force. Drawing parallels to team sports, they emphasize the importance of fostering a sense of belonging, purpose, and responsibility to a higher cause beyond self. Also highlighted is the critical need for strong leadership and support from organizations such as STARRS and the Calvert Task Group to uphold the standards and effectiveness of our military.

Finally, they reflect on the evolving perspectives of veterans and the move from casual socializing to active engagement working on restoring the military by removing the divisive politicization and ant-American ideology in the armed forces. This is the focus of Calvert Task Group's new book, "Don't Give Up the Ship: Woke Politics are Endangering Our Military and Our Nation," which consists of powerful essays on the topic written by its members.

This episode talks about the collaborative efforts of STARRS, Calvert Task Group and the MacArthur Society, and their impactful actions and influence. With insights into maintaining military strength and unity, this episode reinforces the necessity of strong leadership and the elimination of corrosive elements to ensure operational effectiveness. Tune in to hear the compelling stories and valuable lessons from three naval aviators dedicated to preserving the legacy and integrity of military service.

_______________________________________

For more information about STARRS, go to our website: https://starrs.us which works to eliminate the divisive Marxist-based CRT/DEI/Woke agenda in the Department of Defense and to promote the return to a warfighter ethos of meritocracy, lethality, readiness, accountability, standards and excellence in the military.

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Episode Transcript

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (00:12):
Well, hello America.
This is Commander Al Palmer,nited States Navy retired, and
I'm with you as your host forStars and Stripes.
This is a production that'shere courtesy of Stars, which is
a nonprofit organization whichis formed so that we can stand
against racism and radicalism inthe services.

(00:35):
The idea there is we need to beable to make sure that our
armed forces are properlyprepared, are properly prepared,
have the right attitude and theability to conduct military
operations around the world todefend our country.
So it's good to be back withyou here for another exciting
episode of Stars and Stripes.

(00:58):
I'm really pleased today to havea couple of naval aviators here
to join me, so we've got a castand crew of three Airedales, as
we like to call them in theNavy sometimes, or maybe they
like to call us that out of someother purpose.
But we're here today to talk alittle bit about what it's like

(01:18):
to be able to serve in the Navy,what the challenges are in the
past and in the present.
Serve in the Navy, what thechallenges are in the past and
in the present, and also whatwe're going to be facing as we
go up forward into a new erahere, with some difficult things
in our society.
So with that, I'm going tointroduce first Captain Tom
Burbage.

(01:38):
Captain Burbage was a navalaviator, was then a test pilot
and after a stint in the air inthe Navy, went to work for
Lockheed Martin, and I'll lethim explain the great things
that he did there.
And then Lieutenant CommanderBruce Davey, who was a fighter

(02:00):
pilot and, most notably, a BlueAngel.
So he knows all about flying intight formation, and we'll kind
of keep it that way here today,if we can.
So, tom, first of all, sir,welcome to the program and tell
us a little bit about how yougot roped into joining the Navy.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (02:17):
Well, thanks, Aalan.
Thanks for having us on.
It's great to meet up with youtoday.
Uh, uh, bruce and I haveactually similar backgrounds.
We come from a navy family.
Um, I'm third generation, uh,navy my, my daughter, son-in-law
, brother-in-law all navy, allnavy pilots with the exception
of my daughter.
But that's how it started.

(02:38):
My role models growing up werenaval officers.
They were.
I went to see on uh, uss frank,uss Franklin D Roosevelt, with
my dad when I was in sixth gradefor a week at sea.
Navy pilots and naval officerswere what I grew up around.
I wanted to go to the NavalAcademy, I wanted to be a Navy
pilot and I was lucky enough todo both.
When I left active duty Istayed in the Reserves for

(03:01):
another 14 years and got to flythe A7, the Corsair II and had
an industry career with LockheedMartin and was very fortunate
to be involved with their two5th Gen fighter programs, first
the F-22 and then the F-35.
So I've been around fighteraircraft my entire career, both
military and civilian, and it'sgreat to be part of this effort

(03:23):
now, working with you and theSTARS guys.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (03:27):
Well, it's great, tom, having you with
us, and that kind of backgroundreally does help people
understand why we're doing it.
Often, you know, when we havethings like what STARRS does, we
have a lot of digital andwritten materials that we have,
which are wonderful, and Iencourage anybody who's
interested in that subjectwhat's going on with the

(03:48):
military to go to our websiteand see that.
But it's even better to haveguys like you as the faces of
STARRS, so that people canunderstand not only why we do it
, but who is doing the workbehind the scenes here for
STARRS.
And then Bruce, of course, thatcomes to you, sir, tell us a
little bit about how you gotinto the Navy as well.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (04:12):
Well, I was just like Tom said.
Our backgrounds are so similarit's really peculiar.
My father was a naval officer,a graduate of the Naval Academy,
and my grandfather on his sidewas in the Navy also, and I go
back five or six generations inthe Royal Navy as well from my

(04:34):
mother's side.
So I always wanted to go to theNaval Academy.
I never thought about any otherschool, never applied to any
other place, and from highschool in northern idaho I
applied, and, of course, sincethere aren't that many people
applying for the naval academyfrom idaho, I was selected and

(04:54):
went to the naval academy.
It changed my life as far aswhat sort of man I would become
the uh man I would become.
The trip from there was one ofreal excitement and going
through Navy flight training andthen to a fighter squadron

(05:15):
aboard Saratoga Fighter Squadron31, the Tomcatters, and went to
the Med during the end of theVietnam War.
I did not participate inVietnam, I was in the
Mediterranean at that time andthen from there I went to the
Blue Angels.
And what a job that is.

(05:36):
What a terrific opportunity toget to see all of America and
fly shiny jets in front ofpeople and meet a lot of people
all over America, so just aterrific job.
From there I went to EasternAirlines, was there for nine
years until Eastern wentbankrupt and then went, applied

(05:59):
and was accepted at UnitedAirlines and flew there for 20
years and as a eventually as astandards captain a Czech airman
, and then started my ownbusiness, aviation Efficiency
Group, working with airlines forto make them more efficient and
operate in better fashion, andsince then I've retired from

(06:22):
that as well and and now justinterested in making sure that
America gets on the right trackhere as far as so that my seven
grandchildren and as well as mythree children, one who is also
a Navy pilot can live the sortof life that I've lived.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (06:45):
Well, listen, guys, I'll tell you what
.
There's something spooky goingon here, because you guys have
three generations of aviatorsand Navy in your blood, and I've
got three generations ofaviation in my background too.
My grandfather was an army aircorps pilot from World War I to
World War II in Korea, and thenmy dad was an aviator after

(07:10):
World War II in Korea and thenhere I was coming in in Vietnam
and all.
But that's one of the secrets.
I think in the past We've had aresource of families who are
like ours, who have suppliedtheir children, their
grandchildren, their relativesinto service because they

(07:32):
understood what we were doingfrom our service.
That's something that'sstarting to disappear today,
sadly, and that's one of Star'sconcerns, as you know that we're
now not able to rely on thatresource as much as we used to
in the past, and there are somereasons for that, which I want
to kind of discuss with you.
So, having said that, tom,what's your view of how things

(07:57):
have changed in the military inthe last decade or so that you
can see?

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (08:05):
It's a really complex issue, I think,
al, if you think about the sortof the experiment of developing
a candidate pool that'sadequate for military work and
how that candidate pool is nowgoing through some radical
changes in the K-12 schoolsystems.
The loss of patriotism over theyears.

(08:28):
When's the last time you saw aflag, an American flag, in a
classroom or heard a pledge ofallegiance from a young class,
which we did every day when wewere growing up?
So patriotism in America areconcepts that are somewhat lost
on the current generation.
And that is the candidate poolthat has to come in and refresh
the military, so to speak, on anannual basis.

(08:48):
So you have that issue.
You have the issue of bandwidth, where active duty military are
required to be the tip of thespear.
Readiness is all important,particularly in a world where
the foreign enemies are prettyeasy to point at and spot.
The Founding Fathers werepretty amazing in terms of their

(09:13):
identification of both foreignand domestic enemies.
Domestic is a lot harder topoint to, but it certainly looks
like there's some of that goingon right now.
So how do we, as the retiringgeneration, help influence the
world that we're gonna leavebehind?
Our fathers did that, obviously.
World War II.
My father was a brand newensign out of the Naval Academy

(09:36):
in February of 1941 and he wasthe officer of the deck on the
USS Detroit at Pearl Harbor whenit was bombed eight months
later.
So, jumping right into thebreach.
The greatest generation, as theycalled them, stood up for what
was right and made the worldthat, as Bruce said, that Bruce
and I and you and all get tolive in.
So we need to think about that.

(09:57):
What are we leaving behind?
It's a generationalresponsibility.
That generation that youmentioned was key.
If you look at the heartland ofAmerica, you look at the
Judeo-Christian values andpatriotic values that that group
of society was brought up in,that's disappearing rapidly and

(10:18):
so it's just a big concern.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (10:22):
Well, and Bruce, what are your
thoughts on that?
I mean, we've all gone throughthe same kind of thing, but so
where do you think we standtoday and how do we address that
?

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (10:34):
in the world is something that a
lot of people may have losttrack of.
Just an example when I was inEurope and when I was on an
aircraft carrier there and hadsome vacation, I went up to

(10:57):
Andorra, which is a smallcountry in between Spain and
France, to go skiing and when wewere coming back it was about
one or two in the morning as wecrossed the frontier back into
Spain and the Guardia Civil, thevery powerful military civilian
police segment of the Spanishgovernment, stopped the bus and

(11:22):
there was a lot of smugglingthat took place between Andorra
and and, uh, other countries andthey had everybody off the bus.
Very abrupt sort of thingeverybody pull out your
suitcases, everybody's standingbeside the road at two o'clock
in the morning, cold and uh, andthey start going through
everybody's suitcases and, andit was.

(11:43):
It was a little scary to people.
It was certainly scary to me.
They came to me and they saidpassport and I handed them my
United States of Americapassport and the guy looked at
it and said the status andneedles and I said See, I am a
United States citizen and hehanded me back my passport and

(12:06):
went to the next person.
Nothing, no, no, busting openmy bags, no, hard, hard, assing
me.
And and that really reflectedin my mind about what is the
power of America.
The power of America is that weare the preeminent power in the

(12:28):
world and the citizens ofAmerica need to understand how
important that is.
That when you say I am a UnitedStates citizen, it's like Paul
saying I'm a citizen of Rome tothe, to Fetces, and so we, uh,
we enjoy that right now.

(12:48):
But if we allow our country todegrade, as as we are allowing
it to degrade, into just part ofthe mass, then then trouble is
brewing and there are, there area bunch of wolves sitting on
the outside that are hoping thatwe continue to degrade.
And one of the main sources ofour strength of course, probably

(13:09):
the main, because ourdiplomatic corps seems to be a
little wanting uh is ourmilitary.
And what are we?
What are we getting into ourmilitary?
Well, we've.
We've cut off, as tom said, the, the prime recruiting source,
which is white, male, southernand descendants of military

(13:34):
people.
That's where most of therecruits come from in the
military.
Now, we have exceptions myson-in-law comes from a family
that's never had anybody in themilitary and he's a Marine.
But in general, that's where wecome from, and if you degrade
the importance and status of themilitary, then you wind up with

(13:59):
trouble.
And we're now at the point whererecruiting is a problem.
And we're now at the pointwhere recruiting is a problem,
and I'm sure you're aware thatthey've changed the recruiting
protocols to where people don'thave to meet physical fitness
requirements, they don't have tomeet educational requirements,
they can have legal difficultieson their record and things that

(14:20):
were unheard of a generationago.
So we're in a nasty spot inAmerica.
We need to have a strongmilitary in a very dangerous
world.
We have created a situationwithin the military where that
which that attracts the finesort of people we've had in the

(14:41):
past has been degraded, and Ithink that's a terrible
situation and one that STARS andthe Calvert Group are trying to
address with our leadership inthe military and also in our
elected representatives say thatyou're both members of the

(15:06):
Calvert group, named afterAdmiral Calvert, but it is like
STARS, oriented toward makingsome changes in particularly
things like the Naval Academy,as the Air Force Academy does
sort of with STARS.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (15:14):
But and we'll get to that in a minute
because you guys have got agreat book that's coming out and
I want to talk about that alittle later but this dilemma
that we're facing, where theoutside society has worked in
many ways that have shifted in ahurry, whereas the military, as
we know, growing up in it forgenerations, has pretty much

(15:36):
stayed somewhat the same in theway it approaches the mission
and what it has to do, what Isee is, you know, the challenge
is that most people don'tunderstand the military and how
and why it has to be different.
In many ways.
There's a difference in howpeople have to work as teams,
how they bond together, how theywork under really arduous

(15:59):
conditions like we've seen atsea.
Arduous conditions like we'veseen at sea.
You know, watching an aircraftcarrier in action on a flight
deck is an amazing thing, isn'tit, bruce?
And it is like watching asymphony orchestra playing.
It doesn't start out that wayusually, especially when you're
working up the first time to goout to sea.
But when that is perfected, itis music like in action, and

(16:26):
that's the sort of thing thatyou don't see in the pertinent
corporate world.
I mean, these days, people workat a job for a few months, a
couple years, move on tosomething else.
There's not that corporateknowledge that still exists,
there's not the bonding thatoccurs, there's not the will to
stay because it's difficult, notbecause it's easy.
And so you know, let's talk alittle bit about that, because I

(16:50):
think that's an important thing, that is, people are watching
this program, can understand.
Now we're going to talk alittle bit more about why.
It's not just that we'll payyou more money, we'll give you
Starbucks in your barracks,we'll make things so easy that
you don't have to worry, soyou'll stay here in the military
.
It just doesn't work that way,does it.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (17:13):
No, no, it doesn't at all, and a
perfect example, like you said,is the aircraft carrier.
When you're taxiing around theflight deck of an aircraft
carrier, the guy that'sdirecting you might be a
19-year-old wearing a yellowjersey and he is giving you wand
signals of where he wants yourairplane to go and you follow

(17:35):
them explicitly and you followthem up to the point where your
legs are shaking because youwere so close to the edge of the
, the deck of the flight deck ofthe ship.
And yet you do what he saysbecause you trust him and you
believe in him and he believesin you.
He knows that you're going tofollow his directions explicitly
.
Tom was a was the division umleader, the, the division

(18:00):
officer of the of the flightdeck guys in the green shirts,
and he can attest to that thatthe responsibilities that are
given the young people aboard anaircraft carrier and in a lot
of places in the military isoverwhelming.
It's amazing that you vest a21-year-old with an airplane

(18:22):
that can start World War III andyou put him out to do that, but
you also vest a 19-year-oldwith wands aboard an aircraft
carrier and you're believingthat he's going to do his job
well and because of that, hedoes do his job well, and that's
the charming aspect of thewhole thing.
And if we degrade that andthat's the charming aspect of

(18:43):
the whole thing- and if wedegrade that, we're in trouble.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (18:55):
So, as you have described it so aptly,
everybody on the flight deck iswearing their own color jersey
because that's their job.
You know whether you're apurple shirt refueling, or a
green shirt in maintenance andor a yellow shirt that's
directing and the traffic andlaunching people, everybody has
a job to do and you know what,what.
No matter what color shirt youwere wearing, no one asked you
what color you were.
No one asked you where you werefrom.

(19:16):
No one asked you what yourcultural heritage was or what
kind of music you liked oranything.
Their job was focused on justthat part of war fighting and
part of the military, and it'sbeautiful to watch when people
don't have to worry about theoutside stuff, if you will.

CAPT Tom Burbage, US (19:35):
Absolutely .
Yeah, I can add to Bruce there alittle bit.
I was the V2 division officeron the USS Eisenhower, which is
responsible for the catapult andarresting your operations on
the flight deck, for two years.
It was probably the two bestyears I had.
I went sort of kicking andscreaming because I was a
trained pilot and felt like Ishould be flying airplanes, but

(19:55):
when I look back on it, that wasthe core of leadership
development and understandinghow to work with.
I had 148, 150 young men At thetime.
Ships were all male but theyhad to be molded into a
top-ranked team because it'slife or death, and that's one of
the descriptors that Bruce andI have talked about.

(20:15):
When you're in a life and deathenvironment like the military is
, there's no place for secondrate.
You need to be.
Your performance needs todetermine how good you are and
how high you go, and the youngmen who are looking at the
officer corps particularly needto know that those are people
they can follow.
So when you think about theimpact of some of the

(20:37):
ideological changes that arehappening in our society right
now, there are two areas thatare rejecting that slowly, but
starting to reject it on ahigher level.
One is industry which respondsto financial pressures and those
kind of things they're seeingthere's not a payoff for, and
we've seen probably eight ornine major corporations depart

(20:59):
the fold in terms of teachingthe whole DEI ideology.
The other place that isabsolutely not welcome, I think,
should be the military.
Unfortunately, when you gothrough long stretches of
peacetime operations, incentivesget somewhat changed and it's
incentivized to follow a paththat's not necessarily aligned

(21:22):
with where the military ought tobe going, in our opinion.
So when you talk about one lastcomment and that is that we are
a constitutional republic andthat's what sets us apart we're
not a democracy.
The word democracy doesn't evenshow up in our constitution.
We are a constitutionalrepublic, and is that
constitution strong enough topull this pendulum back where it
needs to be?

(21:42):
And that's what I think we'restarting to see is that that's
starting to pull back.
People are recognizing thesmart forefathers that we had
that put together, thatConstitution.
In some cases, all of usyourself, al Bruce, myself
anybody in the military takesthe oath of office.
Anybody in the government takesthe oath of office.
It says they'll protect anddefend that constitution.

(22:04):
In some cases it's turned intoa ceremonial process where I
okay, I say it, put my hand on aBible and I swear to the
constitution.
But I do my own thing andthat's what's very troubling and
hopefully that constitution isstrong enough as a backbone of
this country to pull it back towhere it needs to be to pull it
back to where it needs to be.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (22:36):
And, al, may I add that the key
element is that there is a placefor insertion of other
principles other than themeritocracy where the best
people rise there, where that,where it's really not that
important and and uh.
But as the consequences offailure become more and more
dire, then we can no longer gowith these odd yardsticks of

(22:57):
what color the person's face isor what their gender is.
We have to say, okay, this issomething where we, we have to
have the absolute best, becausethe consequences of failure are
desperate and and that's whatthe military represents You're,
you're not going to lose athousand dollars or a million
dollars, you're going to lose alife.
It's life and death.

(23:19):
And so you have to have thebest people there.
And and I think the averageamerican understands that the
average american says, hey, wewant, we, we want the best
people in these situations.
We want the best people in thecockpit of an airplane that is
going to either discharge or notdischarge a weapon.
We, we, we want the best peoplethere, we, and we don't care a

(23:41):
lick whether they're a black, awhite, a yellow, a green, an
orange, or or whether they're ablack, a white, a yellow, a
green, an orange, or whetherthey're a male or a female or
any other thing.
If there is any other thing,and so.
But when you allow that sort ofthing to creep into these high
consequence environments, thenyou do it at your peril

(24:03):
environment, then you do it atyour peril.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (24:05):
Well, and young people ask us all the
time and especially you, Bruce,when you're a Blue Angel so what
can I expect?
Can I be a Blue Angel?
Is that something you can doright away when you get into the
military?
The answer is no.
We put our hand up, we swearwe're going to join and then
serve, not knowing a bit aboutwhere we're going to wind up.

(24:27):
I say and these young kids,some of them I was with an F-35
group there at Eglin in Aprilwhen I was there with the Wild
Weasel reunion.
I was part of An amazing groupof people but they said Star,
you've been doing this, you'rein combat.
Did you know you were going todo that?
And I said, hell, no, I didn'tknow that.

(24:47):
Actually I was a draft dodger.
I got out of the draft and gotinto the Air Force thinking I'd
really dodged a bullet, andfound myself getting shot at
every day with bigger thanbullets, with surface-to-air
missiles, and so you don't knowwhere you're going to go.

(25:10):
But my point in saying that isyou know it's a developmental
thing.
When you start out you don'tknow if you're going to be in
the armed forces, part of it, orwhether you be a truck mechanic
or a yeoman or anadministrative assistant, you
just don't know.
And it starts, you know, really, when we get in and in our case
, when we went through trainingas officers, you've got to be

(25:31):
ready for the leadership thatfollows, and that's part of that
as well that I see now startingto diminish a little bit, and
you guys can talk a little bitmore about that from the Naval
Academy side.
But that's where it has tostart.
It has to be based on integrity, commitment, willpower and a
strength of character that youkind of develop and hopefully it

(25:53):
works out well by the time youget out of the Academy, right.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (25:58):
Al, I think to underscore one of your
points that you just made, backin the day, there was a draft
and Jim Webb, former Secretaryof the Navy, had a great comment
during draft days in Vietnam,which is leaders come through a
leadership, development,accession plan, but the war is

(26:18):
generally fought by civilians.
So who do you trust yourchildren to?
Generally fought by civilians,so who do you trust your
children to?
You know, when you look at thediscussion on recruiting and
retention, it sometimes falls ondeaf ears.
But you have to couple thatwith the fact that we're an
all-volunteer force.
Right, we don't have a draft.
We might have to reinstate itif we get to the point where we
can't man ships and mansquadrons and things like that,

(26:41):
but right now we're not.
So how do you incentivizerecruiting and retention?
It's not the way it's beingdone right now.
I think we all kind of agreewith that.
In fact, all you have to do islook at the metrics and see that
we're not performing that wellin either category.
The fallout of both of them isreadiness, and we're not doing

(27:02):
that great in readiness rightnow either, if you look at the
statistics.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (27:06):
So you sort of have to keep coupling
meritocracy best and brightest,particularly in leadership
positions, and all volunteerforce the Pentagon is more

(27:27):
focused on paying people orproviding some sort of comfort
item or some affinity group thatwill get people to stick around
for a little longer, andinstead of recruiting based on
what you're going to do and howyou're going to develop, and not
only that, because it isarduous, it's demanding, it's
special that you're going todevelop, and not only that,
because it is arduous, it'sdemanding, it's special that
you're going to feel betterabout doing that in the end.

(27:48):
There's that dichotomy.
There isn't there.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (27:53):
I think it's a culture.
You're losing the culture thatattracted Bruce and myself and
yourself, al and others, to godo this.
You know, as you lose theculture and you still have
numbers to meet, then you starteroding standards and you start
trying to find other ways toincentivize people to come in.
I've seen a couple ads latelythat said if you're over 70, you

(28:16):
can come into the force now.
Oh, geez, okay.
I mean, there's limitedpositions you can go into, but
the recruiting gates have beenopen to the point where and the
candidate pool to fill it haschanged rather dramatically too.
With the culture that's beenallowed to fester in our K-12

(28:37):
systems and the young folks thatare coming up the chain,
there's still a lot ofoutstanding folks there, yeah,
and I think I just readsomething recently that only 23
coming up the chain.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (28:43):
There's still a lot of outstanding folks
there, yeah, and I think I justread something recently that
only 23% of the population isactually an active part of that
recruiting pool now, and that'spretty low.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (28:55):
And.
Al the yeah where.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (28:56):
Bruce Go ahead.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (28:58):
Bruce .
I was just gonna say whereBruce lives.
In Colorado, I was readingsomething the other day where
there are cities and communitieswhere military recruiters are
not allowed to come into highschool campuses.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (29:11):
Yeah, well, that's left over from the
Vietnam days.
I think perhaps.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (29:17):
You know, there's another aspect,
too, Al that I think isimportant, that we need to think
about too, Al that I think isimportant, that we need to think
about, and the armed forcesneed to think about, and our
civilian administrators need tothink about, and that's that.
You know you can.
I coached basketball on theside for quite a long time and

(29:38):
we didn't have the best uniforms, but we had terrific players
and we were a great team andnobody wanted to get off that
team and everybody wanted to bepart of it.
And the parallel with what yousay about well, they're
increasing pay and they'remaking the chairs better, and so

(29:59):
on.
Those are great and I would haveloved to provided my team with
great uniforms, but we didn'thave the money for that.
But we had great players.
And why did we have greatplayers?
Because they had this teamfeeling of we're the best and we
can wipe anybody out on thebasketball floor, and everybody
wanted to be part of that.

(30:19):
And that's what our militaryhas to understand and I'm sure
the recruiters desperatelyunderstand this that everybody
wants to be part of an eliteforce and if you degrade the
force, people don't want to bepart of it.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The force, people don't want tobe part of it.

(30:40):
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And that's where we it's acycle that and you are to get it
either getting better andbetter and getting better and
better people, or you're goingthe other direction.
Right now, we, this year, wehave 22 000 billets according to
the four-star admiral, 22 000billets of sea-going ships that
are unfilled because we don'thave enough people qualified to

(31:05):
go out on them.
Well, that's a scary situationand one that needs to be dealt
with immediately.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (31:15):
Well, and I was just reading the other
day that there are now 17 navalships that are being tied up
because they can't find thecrews for them.
They're mostly you know, thesupply ships and all, but you
know they're not.
That's the problem is, if youdon't generate the interest and
the ability for people toprosper, grow and do more in the

(31:38):
military, you're not going tohave them to stay around, and
just paying them won't do it.
In fact, I ran the one of mylast jobs in the Navy was
running the Navy's reenlistmentbonus programs, and guys from
OPNAV, the guys in thefive-sided building, would come
over to me and say, look, youknow we need to pay more money

(32:00):
to these guys so they'll stickaround.
I say no, you don't, you know.
What you need to do is inspirethem to want to stay and give
them responsibility and trust.
That's what's going to motivatethem, probably more than the
money.
I mean they'll spend the moneyin a weekend right On a new
motorcycle and a few days at thebar.
But you want to be?

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (32:24):
able to let them stick around to
prosper Absolutely.
The interesting thing, ofcourse, is that if you, as you,
increase benefits and you focuson increased benefits, and
that's financial or comfort ofliving and so forth, those are
nice things.
But when you focus on thatrather than the team, whether

(32:48):
you focus on that instead of you, know, most young men, most
young men, the vast majority, Ibelieve want to do something
hard, something.
Do something hard, perhapssomething violent, something
that is testing you, the manhoodthing, and all you have to do

(33:09):
is dangle that out in front ofpeople.
A perfect example is if you sayonly one person in this group
of 20 gets to do this, then thevast majority are going to want
to do this, regardless.
You can, and selection in navalaviation is a perfect example.

(33:30):
If you say, well, okay, only 1%of these people get to go aboard
a big gray ship and be sit atsea for eight months at a time,
then immediately everybody says,oh, that's what I want to do,
because only one, one guy getsto do it, so I want to do that,
that's this, that's the sort ofscenario that you want to build

(33:50):
into the program.
But if you're building into aprogram that, hey, we, we're
going to give you an extratelevision, hey, we're going to
give you an extra television.
Then that's not what churns upthe butter inside the American
male.
And what churns up the butteris saying I want to do something
, I want to do something hard, Iwant to do something that's
terrific and I want to dosomething that sets me apart.

(34:13):
And that's what we're lookingfor is those sort of people in
our armed forces.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (34:19):
And so I have to tell you that the
people I've had on this podcastso far this year felt exactly
the same way, and there areperfect examples of how that
works, and that's the face thatwe need to put back on the
military, I think.
And it's not about just gettingpromoted for promotion's sake.

(34:40):
It's because you're worthy ofit and we've put trust in you.
You've performed, you've gotthe skill sets that we need and
now we're going to put you up adifferent level.
That's the way it used to workand I see too many times today,
particularly when you get past06 colonels and captains, that's
when it starts to deteriorate alittle bit, because all of a

(35:00):
sudden, people are not becomingor not staying as warriors and
as operators.
They're now transitioning intoa political life, and you guys
probably want to talk a littlebit about that.
Another subject we can get intoa bit we can get into.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN re (35:21):
You're talking about retired senior
leaders that go into theindustry side.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (35:25):
And what are the incentives?

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (35:27):
One of the incentives for completing
a stellar military career isthere's opportunities.
Military retirement is early,relatively speaking, to business
and corporations and thingslike that.
So there's another chapter inyour life that can come after
the military side.
And if you do have an excellentmilitary record or serve in an

(35:47):
elite unit, like Bruce did withthe Blue Angels, there's things
that can happen beyond that.
Sometimes it getsmischaracterized politically, I
think, in Washington, as a badthing.
It's not necessarily bad tohave experienced military folks
working with defense companiesbecause they can keep the
operator's perspective, and Iknow a lot of outstanding, very

(36:09):
senior officers that have beenon boards of directors that I've
been on and I really look up tothem and their opinions when
they do that.
So one of the real challenges wehave is we live in a soundbite
world.
Very few people will peel theonion and try to get to the core
of issues or the impact ofpolicies, or there's too many

(36:30):
people that act on emotions andoptics and don't really get into
what is really driving thecountry down a path that's gonna
come to a fork in the roadpretty soon, and it's the old
Yogi Berra thing's going to cometo a fork in the road pretty
soon, and it's the old YogiBerra thing.
When you come to a fork in theroad, you take it.
It's sort of the analogy thatyou said about your life.
You didn't decide to be a wildweasel when you were in high
school.

(36:50):
You know things happen, youtake risks, your life unfolds
ahead of you and sometimes thatgets very difficult for young
folks to sort their way throughbased on what they're hearing
through other channels, likeschools, like education, like
transgenderism, like all the youknow loss of, in some ways,

(37:10):
loss of the focus on church.
You know, not too many kidscould grow up in a family that's
committed to religion andchurch these days certainly not
as many as when I was growing up.
So there's all kinds of factorsthat are influencing, I think,
the young minds that don't lineup with the culture that we're

(37:30):
talking about.
In terms of maintaining strongdefense, the Constitution is.
I keep referring to it but itrequires three major things it
requires free and fair elections, it requires equal justice
under the law and it requires astrong defense.
And those are three elementsthat, if they're all eroding at

(37:51):
the same time which some couldargue that that's what's
happening today Then bydefinition the nation's becoming
weaker.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (38:02):
So how does someone listening to this
podcast, who's out there todaywondering what to do about this?
What do they do?
How can they help?

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (38:15):
Well, the first thing you do is you
have to get informed and not beoverwhelmed by bumper sticker
mentality.
If it can be written on abumper sticker, it isn't well
thought out.
You need to investigate moredeeply those things that people

(38:47):
are saying, and so the firstthing you do is rip the bumper
stickers off your car and stickwith in-depth analysis of what's
going on.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is think veryseriously about what the people
are, that are, what theirmotivation is, that are talking
to you.
Is there a motivation that isperhaps less than enviable from
a purity standpoint?
And if somebody is profitingand I offer up the Black Lives

(39:11):
Matter movement, which I thinkthere is some genesis of that
that made good sense, somegenesis of that that made good
sense when the leadership windsup very well enriched and not
much going downstream, thatdoesn't play well.
And if somebody investigatesfurther, they discover that this
is not something I want to bepart of.

(39:32):
So that's just one example, andwithin our political system
there are plenty of those sortof examples where people are
enriching themselves by sendingyoung people off to war, when
there, when there isn't a goodreason to send them off to war,
and we need to be as as citizens, our responsibility is to

(39:53):
investigate what thecircumstances are surrounding
our country and try and choosethe best people to be in the
situation to dictate how wecontinue.
And I think that's the keyelement in how we operate, and
I'm not advocating one politicalperson over another.
I'm just saying that you've gotto look at their policies and

(40:15):
what their performance is andthen make decisions based on
that.
And the last thing is we can'tbe subject as citizens.
We can't be subject to thegeneral feeling is this that
somebody communicates to you?
Because the general feeling isthis is what some corporate

(40:36):
moron has passed down to theperson that's broadcasting it on
television and saying this iswhat everybody believes.
I don't think everybodybelieves a lot of this stuff
that is being foisted off on theamerican public.
I think the american citizen,when given an opportunity, does
a pretty good job of decidinghey, let's think about this

(40:58):
clearly and make a decision ofwhat's good for our country,
because there are some realproblems in solutions.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (41:09):
Yeah, can I add something to what
Bruce just kind of struck achord with me when he talks
about the bumper stickermentality?
I think that's a good part ofthe start of the Calvert Group.
To be honest with you, aboutfour years in 2019, 2020, you
know, we were a social group,played golf now and then chased

(41:30):
grandkids, you know, watched TVand we decided to come off the
couch and get involved.
And that's when I first met RodBishop from Stars and others
and we started peeling the onionback a little bit off the couch
and get involved.
That's when I first met RodBishop from STARS and others.
We started peeling the onionback a little bit and we found
ourselves in a world of bumperstickers.
And how do young mindsparticularly, but how do minds
in general, sort that out?
We didn't know what to do.

(41:51):
Are we going to march on thePentagon?
No, we're probably not going todo that.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (41:56):
Are we going to go kinetic?

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN (41:57):
Probably not, although we had some that
wanted to.
But we started writing essaysand we started getting some of
them published and they wereopinion pieces and they were
trying to get that bumpersticker out of the way and start
really diving into what are theissues that are affecting us.
And STARS was a great mentorfor that, and MacArthur Society
at West Point, and we've sort ofcome from a loose formation to

(42:19):
use a Blue Angel term to flyingunder the letter S or whatever
the heads up is.
I think we're in line.
But the essays by themselveswere 48-hour, 96-hour shelf life
.
People read them and say that'sinteresting and then you move
on to whatever.
The next issue of the day iswhen you assemble them into a

(42:40):
book and we spent quite a bit oftime putting this book together
.
It brings you a couple ofthings.
Number one it gives you a timehistory from 2019, basically to
2024, and the tone and thedirection of the essays changes
over time and I find that one ofthe interesting things about
the book is it does show you howopinions change based on the

(43:02):
environmental issues thatsurround us.
The other thing it does is itopens up another genre, like
yourself.
It gives us a chance to talk topeople like you, which we
wouldn't do if we were justwriting an article that showed
up every month or so.
So the book opens anotheraccess point for us to try and
influence opinions, to try andincrease awareness, to try and

(43:25):
dig down get people to seriouslydig down underneath the bumper
stickers.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (43:31):
Well, it sounds like a really great
resource and just readingthrough some of it, you guys hit
on the same issues that we arein STARS and hopefully that
offers, like you say, somesuggestions for people to get
active in doing something aboutit, and that's, I think, the end
result here, hopefully.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (43:52):
It's a charming thing, the interface
of STARS and the Calvert Groupthing, the interface of stars
and and the Calvert group, thatand and I joke about this with
Tom and I think probably withyou too that that the Air Force
stars group is just the perfectexample of an Air Force

(44:14):
operation.
You, everything is structured,you know exactly where you're
going, you've got people incharge of each element.
Um, you've vastly overrecruited.
What anything we'veaccomplished at the calvert
group.
You have resources coming inbecause of that.
Um, it's a perfect air forceoperation and it is

(44:35):
accomplishing a great deal.
And the Calvert group is startedoff as a group of guys and we
have nowhere near the breadththat the Stars group has.
That we're, we're accomplishingthings, but we're not
accomplishing things on thiswide area that that, uh, that

(44:59):
stars is doing it and we, Ithink we benefit from that.
I think we have.
We have the scout patrols thatare, that are the Calvert group,
and we have the, the mass ofarmed forces that is represented
by the, by the stars and, andtogether, along with the
MacArthur group, we're going tochange people's opinions and

(45:24):
change the course of what'sgoing on in our military.
I pray that's true rather thanthe consequences of something
else happening.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (45:33):
Well, bruce, I think it actually is
and there's a lot of evidenceright now that this is starting
to be a major shift.
And I think after the electionI mean elections are elections,
but in this case I think there'sa cultural shift that's going
to be associated with it one wayor another and we'll have to
see how that works out.
But what people are telling me,particularly people who are in

(45:57):
the public relations andfundraising businesses, say that
this has got all the potentialsto explode nationally as a real
resource after the election.
So we're kind of hanging on forthat.
But we saw that this lastweekend when we had this small
rally in Phoenix.

(46:17):
Amazing energy, I mean I'msaying amazing.
And for anybody watching thispodcast, cindy's going to have
that up on our website hereshortly because they streamed it
and in watching it it'll bringtears to your eyes.
It's an absolutely great thingthat we did this last weekend.

(46:38):
But that's the action part ofwhat we're doing at STARS, as I
know you are with the CalvertGroup, and the MacArthur Society
does the same thing on the WestPoint Army side.
So I think that's going to gainamazing traction here very,
very quickly and you guys are animportant part of that, and

(46:58):
this book is a huge step forwardfor you, I know, and I can't
wait to finish reading it.
I just got started on it when Igot my copy here on Saturday,
but I'm looking forward tofinishing it because I know
there's a great deal of wisdomin there.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (47:15):
Well, the interesting thing in that I
know there's a great deal ofwisdom in there.
Well, the interesting thing inthat, you know, people have said
to me oh so you wrote somestuff in the Don't Give Up the
Ship book.
And I say well, you know, thereare some really smart people
that wrote some really intensesort of analyses, Tom being one
of them, and my contributionpales, I'm afraid, somewhat to

(47:41):
the intellectual capabilities ofsome of the other people.
But it is a book that whenpeople read it, they're going to
start understanding thingsoutside of the bumper sticker
mentality.
They're going to say, okay, I,I understand a little bit more
about where we are, where weshould be headed and where we

(48:03):
have been heading and so I didan interview, really important.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (48:11):
Yeah, I'll just kind of add uh.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (48:13):
I I did an interview, uh last week
with a, with a guy that does apretty big podcast out of
Arkansas, and he made a commentthat sort of rang with me.
He said you know what's uniqueabout your book?
And I said what's that?
He said you don't have anyacademics, you don't have any
professional journalists, it'sall written by guys that were
out there and did it, wore theuniform, they're veterans and it

(48:36):
tells a story and how thingshave evolved over the last, you
know, four or five years.
So I thought that was aninteresting way of trying to
capture one of the unique piecesof the book.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (48:49):
Well, it is about being out there at sea
, or in the trenches, or in theair, you know, not knowing
what's going to happen to you,and relying on your own skills
and your own resources in orderto survive and to win.
Because, honestly, one of mysquadron mottos was there's no
points for second place,especially in the fighter

(49:10):
business, right.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (49:15):
Yeah, don't give up the ship by
itself.
It has a interesting ring to me, and my father was a submarine
in uh, world war ii and a careernaval officer.
And um, you, as a civilian andeven as an as a land-based

(49:35):
person, you sometimes it'sdifficult to comprehend what a
ship means, that when you'reaboard a combatant in the out in
the middle of the ocean, thisis your home, but it's also your
life, everything about it isyour life.
You ha, and you and you have tounderstand that if this thing

(49:57):
goes away, I go away, and that'swhat we're trying to
communicate with.
Don't Give Up the Ship.
Is that mentality that we'reaboard the ship America and if
it goes away, we go away?
It's the same sort of thing.
It's desperate out there in theocean when the storms come and

(50:19):
your deck is moving 25, 30 feetup and down and you're trying to
get back aboard the ship.
Um, yeah, you're back aboardthe ship.
That's what it boils down toand if the ship disappears,
that's the end of the hunt andwe're.
That's where america is.
We are the ship that everybodyin the world is counting on and

(50:40):
we don't want to give up theship.
We want to keep that shipoperating and we see holes that
are being drilled in parts ofthe ship and we need to patch
those holes and get them fixedand get on the right track again
.
So don't give up.
The ship is a key element, butit's also a philosophy that says

(51:00):
what you're riding on is yourlife and don't sell it cheaply.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (51:09):
Well, and the other thing, too, is we
need the right people to do thepatching of those holes, do we
not?
And we need the leadership thatcan set the tone and and and
liking it like at sea set thecourse where you need to go,
make sure that everybodyunderstands what their part of
it is.
And, as I was saying earlier,it's beautiful watching that in

(51:30):
action when it really isfine-tuned on on a carrier,
particularly, as you guys fullywell know.
And those young kids, man, I'lltell you, they're getting
smarter all the time.
And I think it's amazing when Iwas down at Eglin talking to
the folks going through the F-35maintenance school there, I

(51:54):
mean these kids were justoutstandingly smart.
I mean, what do we do?
Do we raid MIT for these guysor what?
No, young kids coming out ofthe parts of the country.
And I want to reassure everybodyout there that there's no slack
in that we can still find theright kinds of people.
They're motivated, they'regreat, but it requires the right

(52:15):
kind of leadership and theunderstanding that we can't let
these other corrosive elementsget into the door inside the
military.
When that happens, it destroyscamaraderie, bonding, training
and fighting, which is the heartof what we do you guys just so

(52:35):
illustrously illustrated.
Well, listen, any other lastthoughts here.
We're probably just gettingclose to the end of our podcast
today, but, uh, but I'll leaveit with you to leave some wisdom
on the table here for peoplewho are listening that they can
take home with them and put intoaction.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (52:51):
Maybe I think, if I'll start, I think
, uh, I was taking some noteswhile bruce was talking here.
Talking here because I hadn'tthought about the analogy of the
ship, but I think it's a greatone, and America's ship we're on
right now and I agreecompletely Al that there are
some wonderful young kids outthere, very smart kids.

(53:12):
I think the service academiesare getting the cream of the
crop.
We're not.
You know, we sometimes getmischaracterized as grenade
launchers and outside looking inkind of stuff We've been
careful to try and express tothe leadership of the service
academies and others.

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN re (53:28):
that's not who we are.

CAPT Tom Burbage, USN ret (53:29):
We want to be a force for good.
We're identifying issues and wewant to focus on those and we
want things to get back inbalance.
If we can contribute to thedialogue and the discussion and
increase the awareness of thereal issues that we face as a
nation, that's what we're allabout.
So we appreciate you having uson, and I'll let Bruce pick up

(53:52):
from there.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (53:53):
Well, tom, listen, it's, it's.
It's a pleasure having you on,sir, and thanks for your vision
and your wisdom and what we'vebeen talking about today.
Maybe we'll get a couple ofactual recruits to either
Calvert or the Stars out of this, who knows?
And, bruce, what are yourparting thoughts here?
Are you going to keeptightening up the formation here
a little bit?

LCDR Bruce Davey, USN ret (54:22):
here a little bit.
Uh, that would be a goodanalogy.
Um, you know, it's funny thatin the blues to carry it into
the the concepts that with whichI was familiar in the blues,
there was sometimes a tendencyyou would get in a habit of
doing something in a particularway, and it would not be a
particularly good habit.
It would just be this is theway I've been doing it, and and
uh.
And it would not be aparticularly good habit.
It would just be this is theway I've been doing it, and and
uh.
And it can creep in and slowlyerode what your, what your real

(54:49):
purpose is.
And you have to be, you have tobe careful.
You had to.
As soon as you saw somethingcoming up that was bad, you had
to address it.
And I remember, when I was firstat winter training, a thought
pilot saying to me if you thinkof anything else when you're in

(55:12):
formation, if you think ofanything else, if another
thought crosses your mind otherthan concentrating on exactly
where you are and what you'redoing in the maneuver that's
coming up, that should ring analarm bell.
It should ring an alarm bellthat's so loud and clear that
you probably should clear theformation and and every now and
then, throughout my three yearswith the blues I I would have a

(55:37):
moment where I'd be setting upfor something and another
thought would cross my mind youknow, boy, this is cool Blue sky
, white smoke, or something likethat and it would immediately
slam into my consciousness thatno, don't let this little thing
disrupt you.
Don't let this little thingdisrupt you.

(56:00):
You have a job here and doexactly what you've been
practicing doing and focus 100attention on this thing.
And I think that's where we arein america.
We've we've allowed some of thethe concepts, the primary
concepts, starting with theconstitution, as tom so adroitly
addressed, starting with theConstitution and then going
through the precepts of militaryoperation and how you must

(56:24):
operate this way, and we'veallowed some of that to degrade.
We've allowed ourselves towaver a little bit and we should
look at that immediately andsay, no, I gotta shut that one
off, that's, I'm off track, I'vegot to get back on track.
And that's where we are inamerica.
We got to get back on track andget our military operating and

(56:47):
recruiting appropriately.
We got to have the properframework, we're going to have
the proper leadership and theselittle divergences that can
create catastrophic events willbe eliminated.

CDR Al Palmer, USN ret (57:01):
Well, that's exactly a good analogy,
guys, and I want to thank youfor that wisdom and for being
with us here today.
On STARS, I know you've bothgot a lot of work to do here and
I also know that you're doingthis on a volunteer basis, so
don't expect to check here fromStarz for this today, but I do

(57:23):
want to thank you for being withus, and with that, we'll leave
our viewers with this thought.
There are some more thingscoming.
On this podcast we're going totry to get into some more detail
about what's actually happening.
That's good and where thisfocus will go.
And, as Tom so brilliantlypointed out, we're not a bunch

(57:44):
of complainers, we're not peopletrying to tear anything down.
Quite the reverse we're tryingto build up our military, keep
our warriors strong, keep thefight going and make sure that
we can fight and win withlethality.
And so with that, we'll kind ofsign off here.
Guys, thanks for being with usand for our audience.
Please stay tuned for more fromStars and Stripes Al Palmer

(58:10):
signing off.
Thanks very much for being withus.