On this episode of STARRS & Stripes, host Al Palmer talks with Judge Bruce Tucker Smith, a 21-year veteran JAG officer and former administrative law judge, who reveals how military legal services were compromised by diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) policies that prioritized ideology over combat readiness and the Constitution. Topics they discuss:
• Most JAG officers (70%) enter service directly from law schools that promote leftist ideologies
• Military lawyers failed their duty by allowing illegal racial quota systems to be implemented
• The infamous August 2022 memorandum from Air Force leadership violated anti-discrimination laws
• Military attorneys must remember their client is the service itself, not individual commanders
• Too many career-focused officers lacked courage to oppose policies that undermined readiness
• The Marines' approach of making officers Marines first and lawyers second should be emulated
• Future reforms should include reconnecting JAGs with operational military experience
• Secretary Hegseth was right to fire JAG leaders who had lost the trust of their clients
• Character and integrity in military service means putting mission before personal advancement
Join STARS in strengthening our military, restoring the warrior ethos, and ensuring transparency in national defense.
Read articles by Judge Bruce Tucker Smith:
The Woke Military: A Question of Paternity
https://starrs.us/the-woke-military-a-question-of-paternity/
Of “Independence” and “Guardrails”: The Military Left’s Lamentable Response to SecDef’s Firing of Service TJAGS
https://starrs.us/of-independence-and-guardrails-the-military-lefts-lamentable-response-to-secdefs-firing-of-service-tjags/
_______________________________________
For more information about STARRS, go to our website: https://starrs.us which works to eliminate the divisive Marxist-based CRT/DEI/Woke agenda in the Department of Defense and to promote the return to a warfighter ethos of meritocracy, lethality, readiness, accountability, standards and excellence in the military.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Al Palmer (00:11):
Hello again, America.
Welcome to another specialepisode of STARRS and Stripes.
I'm your host Commander AlPalmer, Navy retired and a
former Air Force F4 Wild Weasel.
If that's not confusing enough,I'm also an old museum director
.
I'm here today to talk to youabout the continuing mission of
(00:34):
STARRS to strengthen ourmilitary, to restore the warrior
ethos to defending our countryand to make sure that we're open
and transparent and honest withour people about how we do all
of that.
And a part of that, as youmight imagine, has to do with
our history in the recent pastof trying to get rid of a
(00:56):
program called Diversity, equityand Inclusion in the military.
Part of that was generated bythe old critical race theories
of the progressives from yearspast.
But we fought that battle, Ithink through this last election
and now that we have a newadministration we're beginning
to attack those problems head on.
(01:18):
And part of that has also beenthe issue of lawfare as it
relates to how those programsare being addressed.
Today.
To talk about that, I've got aspecial and very important guest
with me today.
Bruce Tucker Smith is a retiredAir Force JAG officer, judge
(01:41):
Advocate General.
If you ever saw the old serieson TV JAG.
It's kind of like that's whatit's about.
It's military service to themilitary to help with legal
affairs.
Part of that's the uniform codeof military justice, but also
policy and operations that gowith how the military has to
function and be lawful andresponsible to the people.
(02:06):
So Judge Smith was a 21-yearveteran JAG officer.
He served overseas, he servedin the CONUS.
He was at the command level,working on hard issues and
policies.
He also then went on, when heretired from the Air Force after
nearly 21 years, went on to bean administrative law judge for
(02:29):
the Department of HomelandSecurity, in which he retired
from An amazing record onworking with the law and with
military.
And Judge Smith, sir, it is aprivilege and an honor to have
you with us today to talk alittle bit about how that
affected you, what your view ofit was in your long career and
(02:51):
why it's important today to keeplaw a part of what we do in the
military but also beaccountable for it as well.
So, sir, welcome to the show.
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:02):
Well, I'm honored to be here and very
supportive of the STARRS mission.
It is an amazing group of humanbeings, men and women from
various services.
I'm just honored to be a partof this effort and to help any
way I can.
So thanks for having me.
This is going to be a greatconversation.
Al Palmer (03:19):
Well, it is so, thinking about your history, how
did you get into first of all,how did you get into law, and
then, how did you, by any crookof imagination, get into the
military?
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:33):
Well, it's actually the other way around.
I think it was inevitable thatI would be in the military.
I'm actually a fifth generationmilitary officer.
My father was a naval aviatorin World War II, korea, in the
early parts of Vietnam.
His father served in the sameartillery battery with Harry
Truman.
His father was a Union Cavalryofficer who fought at the Battle
(03:56):
of Chickamauga, and on and onall the way back to the
Revolution.
So I think it's inevitable thatI was going to put on a uniform
, because that's what the men inmy family always did.
Um, I really wanted to be apilot like my father and
unfortunately I got my mother'seyes.
So I was not going to be amilitary aviator, although I am
(04:18):
a pilot.
And because of my argumentativenature, I think it was foretold
that I would become an attorney.
So you know, always thought Iwould be in the military.
The law found me and it was agood suit.
And after law school it wasinevitable that I would, you
know, raise my hand and swearthe oath.
Al Palmer (04:40):
So when you did that, you obviously like I did too I
came from a military family andheld my hand up and said I'll
support the Constitution, notreally understanding where you
were going to go or how you'regoing to end up.
Did that work out about the wayyou thought it was, though,
when you joined?
Bruce Tucker Smith (04:59):
It did.
But I had the benefit of havingseen my father's career and and
I think I had a betterunderstanding of the military
than maybe most people who comein as attorneys through what is
called the direct appointmentroute.
And then we're going to getinto that.
You know, we have the serviceacademies.
That's an obvious way ofcommissioning.
You have people who do ROTC.
I actually audited some ROTCclasses undergrad.
(05:22):
I just didn't want to commit tothe haircut and the uniforms.
When I was in college I was,but the always yeah, yeah.
Jags typically come into theservice through what is called
the direct appointment routeright after law school.
They you know the various Jagcores are the various JAG Corps
(05:45):
are good jobs and a lot ofpeople.
It's a buyer's market forattorney talent, because there
are way too many law schools inAmerica spitting out way too
many young graduates andeverybody's looking for a job,
so it's fairly easy for themilitary branches to find
(06:05):
lawyers they can put in auniform.
That's about 70% of the lawyerforce throughout the Department
of Defense come from the directappointment route.
The other 20% 30% come fromwhat is called the funded legal
education or the excess leaveprograms or the excess leave
(06:29):
programs.
These are people, typically O3s, young O3s, who meet a
competitive board in theirvarious services and if they are
selected they go to law school.
They're still accruing time andgrade.
Law school is their militaryassignment.
When they commission or whenthey graduate from law school,
pass the bar, then they leavewhatever career field they had
behind and now they become judgeadvocates in the service.
(06:49):
So about a 70-30 mix betweendirect appointees and people who
had prior military experience.
Al Palmer (06:57):
So those, though, that had the prior military
experience by the time theybecame a JAG, had the experience
of being in and around theservice and probably, like us,
you know, may have come from amilitary family, so they may
have been more tuned in to themilitary than the guys who just
came in.
Bruce Tucker Smith (07:13):
That's generally true, yes.
Al Palmer (07:15):
Yep, so did you notice that right away when you
started practicing as a JAG?
Bruce Tucker Smith (07:24):
It's pretty clear who had prior service and
who didn't.
And I think yeah, and really oneof the big problems that I
think led to the entire DEI messis you have to understand that
in the main, america's lawschools are bastions of liberal,
(07:45):
left-leaning thought.
It's just, it's not evendebatable.
America's law schools arepretty much run by the political
left.
There are some law schoolsmaybe church-affiliated or maybe
more conservative, but in thevast majority of cases America's
law schools are run by liberalsand in many times very
(08:08):
left-leaning liberals, almost tothe point of Marxism.
So these young folks who comeout of law school with no prior
military experience, they've hadthis what I call soft Marxism
ingrained, perhaps throughouttheir undergraduate, but
certainly in law school, and sothey come to the military with
(08:29):
these leftist notions already inmind.
Al Palmer (08:34):
Preconceived ideas about how things should work.
Bruce Tucker Smith (08:37):
Yep and they're.
You know the vague leftistdiatribe and dogma which they
learn.
These words they utter them inlaw school.
They really don't know whatthey mean or what they're saying
and they think that themilitary is just like Microsoft
or Walmart.
Why can't we all just playnicely together and do diversity
(09:00):
and equity and inclusiveness?
And again in the minds of manynew attorneys who joined the
military.
They really don't understandwhere they are, they don't get
it.
Al Palmer (09:13):
Isn't that really a critical issue, though?
Because you have to know theculture of the military to
understand its mission and therequirements for the discipline
and order that have to go withthat, which, you're right, it's
different than working forAmazon or Boeing or somebody
else, so the culture has got tobe there too.
Bruce Tucker Smith (09:35):
It is.
And look, this is theprofession of arms.
The military is a professionand we have one mission to fight
and win the nation's wars.
In the Air Force we say ourmission is to fly, fight and win
, and don't you forget it.
But it's the same thing.
Anything that is not that isdangerous.
(09:57):
Anything that is not aboutfighting and winning America's
wars is dangerous.
Al Palmer (10:04):
As a famous fighter pilot, adolf Galan, said, all
else is rubbish, and it'sexactly right.
You have to be able to do thejob and focus on that.
So the role of the JAG, then,is to interpret the law for the
commanders or for setting policy, maybe at a little higher level
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (10:26):
Well, it depends on who you are and what
your job is.
I would argue that the primaryreason we have attorneys in the
military going all the way backto Colonel John Tudor in the
Revolutionary Army, who was thefirst judge advocate for George
Washington, who was the firstjudge advocate for George
Washington the role of themilitary attorney is to instill
(10:48):
and maintain assisting thecommanders and instilling and
maintaining discipline in afighting force.
That's the main reason we exist.
The disciplinary tools, whetherit be nonjudicial punishment or
the court martial world that isthe reason we were invented.
Unfortunately, over time thathas gotten fuzzied and there are
(11:15):
people in the various JAG Corpswho frankly don't like the
courtroom, they don't like themessiness of the military
justice system and they wouldrather focus on being careerists
who sit behind their desks andwork on their own resumes.
I'm pretty hard on the JAGCorps here, but as you increase
in rank, you know, just like inthe flying business Al.
(11:40):
Most of the courtroom work isdone by the captains in the Army
, air Force and Marine Corps orthe lieutenants in the Navy.
They do most of the realcourtroom work.
Unfortunately, after that, asyou progress and rank, you find
yourself not really associatedwith the courtroom.
You're more of a policy personwho write legal reviews for your
(12:04):
bosses which somebody reads andsticks in a drawer someplace.
Yeah, yeah, it really is it.
And again, one of the problemsof how we got to this DEI mess
is, frankly, I don't know thenumbers and I hope it's a small
number of attorneys.
Stop forgetting what theirmission was, which is to assist
(12:28):
the commander maintainingdiscipline in the greater
mission of winning America'swars.
And I think the most importantthing of this part of the
conversation, Al, is, whenyou're a military attorney, your
client is the service that youwork for.
If you're a Navy JAG your clientis the United States Navy.
If you're an Army JAG, yourclient is the United States Army
(12:52):
.
Yes, you work with people, yes,people sign your performance
reports, but your client is theservice.
And again, I think one of thereasons we got into this DEI
mess is because we had too manyattorneys who, if they ever
understood it, forgot that theirclient was the armed force
whose uniform they wore.
Al Palmer (13:14):
So that's a really good answer to the question of
who you serve and who you'reworking for.
But in today's world, when weget into things like joint
service operations and thingslike joint basing and those kind
of decisions that are made, itgets a little bit squirrely,
(13:35):
doesn't it?
I remember that happening inHawaii when they started
changing the bases to jointbases.
Who owned the base?
Who works for who?
What traditions do you keep?
Which ones don't you?
Which boss do you work for, orwhich one don't you?
That gets pretty interestingand kind of complex, doesn't it?
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:53):
It does.
But I would say that the answerbecomes and pardon the lawyer
semantics here in the jointenvironment, in the purple
environment, then your client isthe mission.
Al Palmer (14:05):
Which is the joint service part of that.
Yes, it is the mission, whichis the joint service part of
that, yeah, it's the mission,it's the mission.
So as long as you're true tothat, then you're still doing
the job you need to do,absolutely so.
You've written very intenselyabout some of the failures of
the leadership in the JAG Corpswhen it comes to DEI and what's
(14:28):
been happening within thePentagon, and some of that is
the same problem that the restof the service is not just the
JAG's face, but it's standing upand doing the right thing,
being the good leader, makingsure that you do things that are
both lawful as well as makesense from the service
perspective.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Bruce Tucker Smith (14:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And of course, the touchstonefor this conversation is
recently the Secretary ofDefense, Mr Hegseth, fired the
Judge Advocate General of theArmy and the Judge Advocate
General of the Air Force, andthere's been a lot of
post-mortem hand-wringing,mostly from the political left,
(15:10):
you know, wailing that this isthe end of democracy, they've
removed the guardrails and thatthe independent arbiters of the
law have now been stripped away,leaving the military services
to be rogue entities notconstrained by the law.
(15:36):
And that's just hot air.
The fundamental notion is thisAn attorney can and should be
fired by his client if he nolonger enjoys the confidence of
the client.
It happens every day in thecivilian world.
Military attorneys are notnecessarily paragons of virtue,
intellect reasoning.
They're not.
(15:57):
They're human beings just likeanybody else who practices law.
If you're not taking care ofyour client's needs and the
mission, you get fired.
And I'm pretty certain that'swhy Secretary of HEGSF fired the
TJAGs of the Army and the AirForce.
And there were many reasons forthat, but I think the best
(16:18):
example, al, is the now infamous9 August 22 memorandum for the
entire Air Force and Space Forcesigned by then Chief of Staff
of the Air Force, general Brown,and then Chief of Staff of the
Space Operations, generalRaymond.
And this was, I think so manypeople have seen this memorandum
(16:38):
, but it basically calls for themandatory implementation of
racial quotas.
In there it is of militarymembers, which is absolutely
against the law.
You cannot.
You cannot discriminate againstpeople or for people based on
(16:59):
their skin color, and that'sexactly what this did.
It's incomprehensible to methat an attorney with any
experience let this documentever see light of day Now.
I'd like to hope, and I'd liketo believe that there were
attorneys who saw this andjumped up on their client's desk
(17:22):
and yelled and screamed untilthey were purple in the face,
regardless of rank.
Sometimes you have to do thatas an attorney, to tell them
that this is wrong.
I believe if there ever was amoment where you pull out your
saber and fall on it, this wasone of those moments.
But more than the legal aspect,and you have that line right
(17:44):
there.
Who on earth, wearing amilitary uniform, allowed this
language to go out, talkingabout leveraging diversity to
enhance the Air and SpaceForces' ability to deter and, if
necessary, deny our nation'scompetitors, who wrote that Our
(18:04):
competitors.
Al Palmer (18:05):
That is phenomenal, yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:08):
North Korea, China, large portions of the
Middle East, Iran.
They're not our competitors,they are our enemies.
And what do we mean to denythem?
We want to beat them.
What do we need to deny them?
We want to beat them.
Al Palmer (18:27):
Make sure they don't resurface.
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:29):
Yeah, and so you know the piece of paper
that I have on my wall and allattorneys do.
It says attorney and counselorat law.
Well, the attorney part meansstick your nose in the books and
know what the law says.
The counselor part is sometimesyou've got to be the voice of
reason in a group full of peoplehellbent on running off the
(18:50):
edge of a cliff.
And again I have to ask wherewere the attorneys who had the
responsibility to make sure thatthat memorandum?
You've just seen that thatthing was never written and
never saw the light of day.
Where were they?
Al Palmer (19:06):
At the very least, at the very least the question,
the basis for asserting thatthat was something that was
going to increase the lethalityof the force.
How do you, how do you, justifythat?
Bruce Tucker Smith (19:19):
Yeah, I mean again consistent with the
mission, which is to fight andwin our nation's wars, and
anything that isn't that iswrong.
This completely takes, ifyou're an attorney, takes your
service away from the notion ofmeritocracy, which is what we
absolutely must have to be aneffective fighting force and let
(19:42):
me get a little lawyer-ish onyou here.
Force, and let me get a littlelawyerish on you here.
The American Bar Associationhas what it calls its model
rules of professionalresponsibility, and every state
in the union has its rules ofethics, but most of them are
patterned on what the ABA rulessay, and I point to rule of
professional responsibility 2.1,which, in representing a client
(20:04):
, a lawyer, shall exerciseindependent professional
judgment and render candidadvice.
Al Palmer (20:15):
That's wise.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:17):
That's the law.
That is the rule that governsevery attorney who has a license
Rendering independentprofessional judgment.
That means sometimes you've gotto swing against the tide,
sometimes you've got to be theone voice in the room calling
for sanity when everybody elsewants to jump off the cliff.
There's another rule, which isrule one, point three, which
(20:40):
kind of talks about how muchhorsepower you have to put
behind that independentresponsibility, and it says that
a lawyer shall act withreasonable diligence in
representing the client.
Diligence meaning, of course,steady, earnest and energetic
effort.
Well, I don't see any steady,energetic, independent effort in
(21:02):
that document we just put upand everything that we have seen
in the DEI world as it infectedthe military.
It smacks of a completeabrogation of professional
responsibility and military dutyby some I hope not all by some
uniformed attorneys, and that'sprobably what resulted in
(21:23):
Secretary Hegseth, you know,deciding he no longer had trust
and confidence in his lawyers,and so he was absolutely right
to do what he did, just as anycivilian attorney will get fired
by their client if the clientdoesn't have trust in what
they're doing will get fired bytheir client if the client
doesn't have trust in whatthey're doing.
Al Palmer (21:47):
Yeah, and that is the compact between the commander
and the attorney the JAG in thiscase to do the things that need
to be done to enforce themission of the military.
But these folks didn't give up,did they?
Just by being exposed andcaught in that, didn't they kind
of go on to justify what theydid?
Bruce Tucker Smith (22:06):
Well, they're zealots and they're not
going to be deterred by the lawor logic or reason.
They're zealots, they have aworldview.
I think some of them are trulyMarxist in their orientation.
I think some of them are trulyMarxist in their orientation.
I think some of them arewell-meaning but foolish, who
just again don't understand.
(22:26):
And these are people who havebirds and stars on their
uniforms.
They still don't get it.
They're far more interested incurrying favor with people who
can ensure their longevity.
They're people who make suretheir career comes first.
And I, you know those of us whocome from military backgrounds.
It's, it is, it is maddeningbeyond definition.
(22:51):
Uh, there, no, there have alwaysbeen careerists in the military
yes um, if you go back to theBritish duo of Gilbert and
Sullivan, their very famousoperetta of HMS Pinafore,
there's a very famous song inthere that talks just about this
phenomenon of people with nopolitical or with no military
(23:16):
background acumen interest whonevertheless became high ranking
in the british navy.
And of course all that gilbertand sullivan wrote about was all
social critique.
It was sort of the internet ofits day.
But there's a great line in oneof the songs which says stick
close to your desks and never goto sea and you'll all end up
(23:36):
admirals in the queen's navy.
And you'll all end up admiralsin the Queen's Navy.
And that phenomenon exists tothis very day.
I can't tell you the numbers ofpeople I knew on active duty
over their career and nothingelse.
They didn't know a flight linefrom a clothesline, but they
knew how to curry favor with theright people, get promoted.
Al Palmer (23:59):
And if that meant?
Bruce Tucker Smith (24:00):
singing the song of the day to keep the
political people happy.
So be it.
Al Palmer (24:07):
Yeah, I guess that's the result of a large
bureaucracy.
People do get to hide out in it.
Yeah Well, then you know, it wasthat way even in some of the
active forces, when people gotpromoted and then went off to
the desk jobs too.
And that's, I think, one of theroot problems I see today is
you've got a lot of very seniorleaders, three and four stars,
(24:30):
and then SES folks and others inthe civilian side who have no
direct relationship to themilitary, and they're like you
say.
They're the ones that getabstract and focused on
something entirely different,and I don't think it's any
different.
Bruce Tucker Smith (24:46):
Well, and it's an important point to be
made, which is we absolutelyadhere to the notion of civilian
control of the military.
Absolutely the truth, and itmust be.
That way we don't have militaryjuntas.
Al Palmer (25:02):
And yes, you must follow the guidance and the
instruction.
Bruce Tucker Smith (25:05):
So long as you're wearing the uniform, you
got to follow the guidance andinstruction of the commander in
chief.
Okay, I get it, but there is amatter of honor and integrity
which says that sometimes youmust pull out that saber and
fall on it to make a greaterpoint, you know?
Yes, if I were in uniform whenPresident Biden was my commander
(25:29):
in chief, I would have salutedsmartly and said yes, sir, until
I could no longer do it, atwhich time my option was to
leave and then once I was.
I didn't speak my mind, I justI've got to wonder where were
the careerists in the variousservice jags who saw this
(25:49):
disaster being worked on thevarious armed services.
Where were they?
Where was their saber fallingmoment?
Al Palmer (25:58):
Yeah, the two generals that you mentioned
being atop of the class, if youwill, in their respective
services, must have known thatthere was an issue there.
I mean, they must have beenwatching Milley testifying in
Congress about DEI, and all thatat the same time, and yet they
didn't say anything.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:19):
No, because they had lovely three-star jobs
and they were making a nicepaycheck and, you know, they got
a nice parking spot at thePentagon.
Al Palmer (26:27):
So and maybe a follow-on board job someplace
when they return.
Absolutely.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:34):
Absolutely.
Al Palmer (26:34):
Or, and those I mean those are realities that I think
we've had for some time.
But you're right, the personalstandard of loyalty beyond self
has got to be there in ourwarfighters, but also the
leadership too.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you raise your handand you swear the oath you are
swearing to defend with yourvery life.
Not the flag, not baseball, notapple pie, not your mom, not
the girl next door, it's theConstitution.
That's the thing we say we'lldie for.
(27:15):
And we, the professionalmilitary, our job, is to be the
guardians of that document.
And when something happens thatbegins to rot the core values
of that profession, that service, that duty, you've got a choice
to make as an American.
(27:36):
You can either participate init by acquiescing, or you stand
up and be counted, andfrequently you're going to make
yourself very unpopular bysaying that the emperor is
wearing no clothes.
But again, where were thelawyers, the people who know
better, who are in a position inevery element of the command
(28:00):
structure, all the way down fromthe basic unit of whatever
armed service, all the way tothe Pentagon and the Joint
Chiefs level?
There are lawyers there, peoplewho should be wielding
influence and good judgment onbehalf of their client, the
mission and the service.
And I didn't see it.
Al Palmer (28:19):
You know it's interesting the mission and the
service, and I didn't see it.
You know it's interesting.
I remember when I was on thestaff of the commander in chief
of the Pacific Fleet years ago,the airlines were giving away
free stuff when you were afrequent traveler.
And one day the financial guyscame to me and said I was a
financial policy there at thetime policy officer and they
(28:42):
said look, what do we do?
This stuff that the guys aregetting, don't we, the
government, own it Because webought the ticket for them?
Don't we, the government, havethat?
And isn't it wrong to be givingthem something worth money when
we don't allow them to havelunch with a contractor and that
kind of stuff?
So I went over to the JAG officeand I thought this would be
(29:04):
kind of an easy one, right?
And I said so, colonel, what dowe do about this?
And he says well, you know, wegot to go out and seize all this
stuff and we got to make surethat it's accounted for and then
we can figure out how much it'sworth.
And that happens.
Then we'll go out and chargethem for on their travel voucher
.
And I said wait a minute.
You know you're settingsomething off here that's going
(29:26):
to create a real problem for us,and they did they.
They ended up with warehousesfull of umbrellas, golf balls
and teas and stuff like that.
Uh, when they could have justsaid, look, write it off, it's
insignificant, just get rid ofit.
Bruce Tucker Smith (29:40):
Yeah that when they could have just said
look, write it off, it'sinsignificant, just get rid of
it.
Al Palmer (29:45):
That's what they ended up doing early on.
What I was what I was impressedwith was how much time Bruce
took to do it.
It should have been a verysimple decision on the part of
the commander anyway, but but hewas not getting good advice
from the attorneys, who werebeing too literal in what
they're looking at.
Bruce Tucker Smith (30:03):
Yeah, and again, it is one of the
insidious natures.
You know, a good lawyer,frankly, is the lawyer, she or
he who will jump up on thecommander's desk, regardless of
rank, and, figuratively speaking, slap him around a little bit
and say look.
I I know you don't rank me byfour grades, but I'm your lawyer
(30:23):
and I'm here to tell you, I'mhere to protect you.
Damn it, let me take care ofyou.
Uh, even though that's not apopular thing to do and say, and
um oftentimes you get rankintimidation, uh like, and
especially you get young jagswho don't want to make the Jags
above them angry.
So it's better not to do or sayanything, and go along to get
(30:45):
along right.
Well, I'm to get along, and youwhat you?
Then you defeat the notion ofgrowing leadership in the armed
services, which you, what youcreate is followership.
Al Palmer (30:56):
So so has there been an effort to change that
attitude within the JAGs.
Bruce Tucker Smith (31:02):
Well, not to my knowledge, not since I was
first commissioned back in 1984.
No, it's human nature Take careof your career first,
unfortunately, is the pole starfor many people not all, I will
tell you.
I had the honor of serving withsome of the very best military
officers, best attorneys.
(31:23):
I ever had the honor of servingwith great people who
completely understood their jobsand mission.
But there are also thecareerists who live their entire
lives in an effort not tooffend anybody.
They just keep their shoesshine and a smile on their face
and they hope they will.
You know, stick close to theirdesks, never go to sea and make
(31:45):
animal and unfortunately ithappens too much.
And when you get a policy likethis DEI thing come down the
line, they're just not equippedby way of character or
experience to stand up and dowhat the little voice in the
back of their head is tellingthem probably ought to be done,
but they just don't have thecharacter to do it.
Al Palmer (32:05):
Well, especially if they were brought up in the
environment in college, goingthrough law school, socialism,
marxism being related to that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (32:15):
Yeah, and never fully understanding to
that.
Yeah, and never fullyunderstanding exactly who you
are and what it means when youput on that uniform.
I don't need to explain to thisaudience.
It is a profession, it is acalling, it is a subculture in
America with our own set ofvalues, duty, honor, country.
Al Palmer (32:38):
Well, and unfortunately, they wanted to
take that out of the culture allof a sudden, too.
Maybe that's that's coming back.
That's one of the things we'restill fighting for, but when it,
when it comes to being able tostand up and do the right things
, you know, you still have tohave that notion inside that
you're right and you're doingthe things that have to be done
(32:58):
in spite of the fact that youknow someone's telling're doing
the things that have to be donein spite of the fact that you
know someone's telling us to dosomething that's not popular.
So how do you train people todo that?
wow how do you train?
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:10):
people.
How do you train people to havecharacter?
You can teach it to your bluein the and maybe some of it
sinks in, but I think it'sindividual.
It comes with how you're raised, who your family was, what your
(33:32):
values are.
It calls for, frankly, a muchmore rigorous screening at the
beginning of who comes into theservice as a judge, advocate.
And I'll tell you, you knowwe're, we don't.
We don't fly the airplanes.
We are not the pointy end ofthe sword, we're not commanding
(33:52):
the rifle companies or thebattalions.
But the impact that the JAGshave on the service is, I might
add, grossly disproportional tothe numbers of people who
actually are JAGs.
Lawyers have a huge impact onthe military, just as we do
throughout American society,can't?
Al Palmer (34:09):
help it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (34:11):
And that means, you know, that means
we've got to do a much betterjob of finding the right people
and not the ideologues.
As I've written previously, oneof the insidious aspects of all
this is you get people incommand authority in the JAG
Corps who have the stars or thebirds on their uniform.
(34:32):
They're in the position to pickthe new people coming into the
JAG Corps.
They are the people in aposition to make sure the right
people get the right jobs, getthe right assignments, get the
right schools, get the rightendorsements, and so it becomes
a self-fulfilling organization.
And I'm afraid that a littlebit of that has happened, that
the people of a certain ideologyare now so deeply entrenched in
(34:55):
the various JAG Corpsdepartments that it's going to
take a big effort to weed thosepeople out, because I think what
they believe and what they dois destructive.
This is not a difference ofpolitical opinion.
I think it's destructive.
It's antithetical to thenotions of duty, honor, country,
service before self, um.
(35:18):
It's antithetical tomeritocracy, um, and something
drastic is going to have to bedone so it's kind of like takes
two to tango, though, doesn't it?
Al Palmer (35:30):
you've got the attorneys who should be standing
up and doing the right things,as we described, but it's also a
role of the commander not toaccept stuff that they're not
sure of themselves, and they canstand up as well at the same
time, right?
So yeah, so it's that playagainst the, the command
structure, as well as the legaladvice yeah, and, and, and it is
(35:57):
a command responsibility andsometimes you.
Bruce Tucker Smith (36:02):
It's a two-way street.
The commanders need toencourage their attorneys to
show some fortitude.
You know you're in the fighterpilot business right, and there
are rules that you're supposedto follow.
You're not supposed to goflying through the canyon,
you're not supposed to fly underhigh power lines, all those
kinds of things.
Al Palmer (36:23):
That's frowning on us .
Bruce Tucker Smith (36:26):
And yet I don't want an Air Force that
doesn't have those guys in it.
And so part of being anattorney, on the one hand, you
must maintain military decorumand the rank structure and do
regard and respect for yoursuperior officers.
However, doctors and lawyersare unique because it's your
(36:48):
professional knowledge.
Sometimes you've got to shutthe door and it doesn't make any
difference what your rank is.
You've got to make sure yourclient gets it right.
I liken it to the fighter pilotbusiness, as you know better
than I.
Down on the ground, you knowthe captain salutes the guy
wearing stars, but in thebriefing room and once you step
out to the jet, it's the guy whocan fly and fight and lead.
(37:10):
He's the guy that's leading theelement.
I have been in some post-flightdebriefs where I've seen
captains and majors chew out 06sbecause they screwed up, you
know, in an engagement.
Well, sometimes I mean rank isvery important.
I'm not going to say it isn't,but sometimes the person who has
the professional knowledge andthe skill has got to assert
(37:32):
their will for the greater goodof the client and the mission.
Some of the best relationships.
Al Palmer (37:41):
And we do work hard at training people that way or
at least we used to so thatthey'd have that fortitude,
they'd have the sense of beingconfident and right in what they
did, and when they weren'tright they'd admit it and say
you know, all right, we screwedup, we're not going to do that
again.
Bruce Tucker Smith (37:57):
Yeah, If you're going to jump up on the
O6's desk and yell and sayingyou know, all right, we screwed
up, we're not going to do thatagain.
Yeah, if you're going to jumpup on the 06's desk and yell and
scream, I'm all for it.
But you damn well better beright.
Al Palmer (38:05):
Exactly I mean you've got to be right.
So that's where we depend onthat wisdom of the laws and the
lawyers in the service to beable to tell us those things and
to adequately take care of theproblem.
And yeah, it's risky to careersand it's risky to commanders
(38:25):
too if they make the wrongdecision.
But again, getting the bestinformation and best guidance
you can probably is the best youcan do with it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (38:35):
Well, you know.
And let's talk about risk.
Well, you know, let's talkabout risk.
You have flown with people whogave, as Lincoln said, the last
full measure of devotion.
Al Palmer (38:48):
Doing a hard thing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (38:49):
Well, in Jag world, you may get a few paper
cuts and you may lose your job,but you're not going to die.
So my challenge is you knowwhat?
Life is hard and sometimesyou've got to make hard personal
choices.
What's really important to you,your career?
(39:09):
Well, certainly you've got topay the mortgage.
I get that, but it's themission, it's the constitution,
it's the maintenance of ourprofession so that we can do our
jobs.
And if that means you've got totake a few heat rounds, it
might hurt your career.
Well, people have given a hellof a lot more than that in the
(39:29):
defense of the nation.
Al Palmer (39:32):
Well, and that's an important aspect of that,
because if you don't do it thatway, people get hurt and die,
and it's that simple.
And you know we all try toavoid it and we do a pretty good
job with it most of the time.
But I've seen it go the otherway, and particularly with the
DEI.
The Navy had a very tragicexample of that when they tried
(39:56):
to push a female pilot throughtraining and she wasn't able to
do the work on the carrier andshe ended up hitting the round
down, killing herself and theguy she was flying with, because
they pushed out too early.
They wanted to get an exampleof a female that was flying at
sea and they were trying to beatthe air force, I think actually
(40:18):
.
But but those are terribledisplays of judgment.
When those people knew that shewasn't ready, they knew that it
was not going to work, theyshould have gone back and
retrained her and and maybesolved the problem.
But it didn't happen that way.
And maybe solve the problem.
(40:39):
But it didn't happen that way,and I think we still find some
examples.
I just offer that as one casewhen that happens, because
you're right.
You don't just put them backinto a training cycle in a
college class on ethics and law,you put them in a cockpit, or
you put them in a cockpit, oryou put them in a tank, or you
put them in an armored vehiclesomeplace exposed to real danger
(41:03):
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (41:05):
Yeah, and look in my own case.
I soloed when I was 12 yearsold.
There's no doubt in my mind Iwould have been a fine military
pilot, but the military didn'tlet me be a pilot because I
didn't meet the standards.
And the fact that my feelingswere hurt about it is just too
damn bad.
You can't make decisions whichneed to be made on objectively
(41:31):
sound criteria meritocracy youcannot change those because
somebody's feelings are going toget hurt.
You know this is the military.
We have a hard job.
You know I can whine all I wantto about not being a pilot, but
the simple fact is I wasinferior, I couldn't make the
grade, I didn't have the eyesPeriod, End of discussion.
Al Palmer (41:54):
And it would have been wrong to modify a cockpit
or a helmet or whatever just soI could get to play that reminds
me of one of my commanders invietnam, a really great guy, big
bear of a guy, and when he hada problem he put his arm around
your shoulder and he'd say he'dsay al, I hear what you're
saying, but that sounds like apersonal problem to me.
(42:17):
Go work it out at home.
Bruce Tucker Smith (42:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Al Palmer (42:21):
And there you go.
You've got to stick to what thestandards are and you've got to
be exceptional and you've gotto be not perfect, but you've
got to be really good at whatyou do.
Bruce Tucker Smith (42:32):
I promise you, the bad guys are sending
their very best at us.
Al Palmer (42:37):
Yes, and we do have to be ready for that in the
future.
So that gets me to where we gofrom here.
You know we've got a partialhandle on restoring meritocracy,
getting rid of the causticeffects of DEI and Marxism.
Maybe it could come back to usagain.
(42:59):
But what do we do now toinspire a new generation or two
of people like you and me, whogrew up in the military around
it, who really value that Only asmall percentage of the
population actually does serve?
Uh, there's a huge pool ofpeople out there that we used to
(43:20):
be able to rely on who haven'tshown up recently.
Now, all of a sudden, they arecoming back, which I think is
great news.
Yeah, uh, but is there educationinvolved in this somewhere it's
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (43:32):
it's a multi-faceted approach, and I'll
talk about the JAG Corps.
Frankly, I think we need to getrid of some of not people who
come with the leftist baggage,who see the military as a social
petri dish.
We want to affirmatively,through a rigorous process, find
(44:12):
the right people who aresuitable for this profession,
the profession of arms, aslawyers.
Next, you have got to and I tipmy hat to the Marine Corps
their fundamental orientation oftheir attorneys is that they
are Marines first and lawyerssecond.
We need to get completely, atleast in the Air Force, away
(44:34):
from the notion of you're just alawyer in a uniform.
No, you need to get completely,at least in the Air Force, away
from the notion of you're justa lawyer in a uniform.
No, you need to be a militaryofficer whose duty it is to be
that military officer.
And that includes getting ridof the core concept of the JAG
that fitness reports be writtenby line commanders and not
(44:56):
lawyers, fitness reports bewritten by line commanders and
not lawyers.
The promotion boards bepopulated not by lawyers but by
line officers, so that youcompete for promotion with
everybody else who's a lineofficer.
Get out of this.
I'll tell you, interestinglyenough, the very first Air Force
Judge, advocate General GeneralHarmon resisted strongly the
(45:16):
idea that we'd ever have aseparate JAG Corps in the Air
Force.
He warned against the fact thatit would become an insular
group of lawyers looking out forlawyers.
He was so right and we got awayfrom that.
The Marines are very wise aboutthis and they don't have a
separate JAG Corps in the MarineCorps, so yeah.
Al Palmer (45:36):
And that's what struck me as being really, you
know, a good solution there.
You know you're still competingas a line officer, which gets
you more connected with what themission is and responsibility
for being a part of the solution, rather than distant.
Bruce Tucker Smith (45:52):
And go back to.
I could spend hours talkingabout this, but go back to the
fundamental mission of being aJAG, which is assisting the
commander in the maintenance andcreation maintenance of
military justice.
We have too many generations ofyoung attorneys who are not
going to court marshals becausetheir bosses don't like going to
(46:13):
court.
They like the easieradministrative route because,
again, it's easier for them,they make their metrics.
They don't like going to court,they like the easier
administrative route because,again, it's easier for them,
they make their metrics, theydon't upset anybody and they
just slide through the system.
We need to get back in thecourtroom and get our JAG combat
skills honed up.
I think JAGs should haveanother military occupational
(46:34):
skill, whether it be air baseground defense, whether it be
whatever that a JAG can do.
they need to be doing it.
A because they are officers inthe military, like the Marines.
You need to have another combatskill, but, more importantly,
it connects you with the peoplewhom you're there to take care
of as an attorney, If you don'tknow what your client does every
(46:56):
day if I were a wing commanderNavy Air Force, I would insist
that my jags go up in ouraircraft at least once a quarter
, get up there and be doing themission.
You know, not this insular groupof law school graduates who are
wearing polyester.
No, you need to become amilitary officer so that, and
(47:23):
then I would look to recruit andretain those people who
understand that this is acalling.
Who?
Al Palmer (47:43):
have the fortitude to stand up to their bosses and
tell them when they're doing thewrong things and be willing to
suffer the personal consequencesif you know they disagree or
they get it wrong.
I guess the challenge for folkslike us and stars is how do we
go about affecting that change?
You know, I think we all agreewhat change probably is, but how
do you actually make it happen?
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:00):
That's going to be a tough nut to crack.
Perhaps you got to get theright people wearing stars on
their shirts.
You've got to get somelegislative picks, For instance.
For instance, I was unaware ofthis until Pete Hegseth was
nominated to be the SecDF.
Did you know that in the pastthree years the statutory job
(48:22):
description of the Secretary ofDefense by federal statute
created by Congress, made theSecretary of Defense the chief
DEI officer of the Department ofDefense?
It affirmatively gave theSecretary of Defense an
obligation to implement DEI inthe military.
Al Palmer (48:40):
Well that has got to be fixed.
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:42):
That has got to come out in the next Defense
Appropriations Act.
That's got to come out.
Take that statutory languageaway.
Al Palmer (48:54):
And that's taken various other forms over time
too, you know with shades ofgray.
And are they really this, arethey that and that's?
I think our concern is thatthat may sneak back in, even
though the president and thesecretary of defense and their
executive orders have definedpretty well that you can't
(49:15):
rename it, you can't regenerateit, it's gone.
But you know, we know, thatsometimes those things go
undercover somewhere.
Bruce Tucker Smith (49:25):
Well, we're fighting against a highly
determined enemy, the Marxistelement.
You know, we're old enough toremember Nikita Khrushchev
Public's saying they would buryus.
Yeah pounding a shoe on a desk.
Yeah, that's the kind of thingthat the younger folks roll
their eyes at, and I get youknow.
Okay, baby boomer, you know youget this condescending response
(49:47):
.
But the problem is the enemyhas not changed his goal and he
hasn't changed his tactics.
And we Americans too often arejust fat, dumb and intentionally
naive to all of this and theydon't understand what's
happening to us.
Al Palmer (50:06):
But people like us, have to fight back.
Well, and I think we are, and Ithink it is becoming effective,
at least to this point.
People have been listening tosome of the voices about exactly
what you're talking aboutGetting rid of that in religion
and culture and the military andgovernment, and getting rid of
(50:28):
overreaching big government thathas endless resources for
whatever else people want to do.
That's one of the steps.
Steps, too, isn't it?
Getting rid of the putting yournose up to the trough and
sucking all the money out of thesociety.
But there's another issue toothat's come up I wanted to
(50:51):
mention to you, and I knowyou're aware of it Outside of
the military, uh, justice system, uh, within justice in the
country, now, there's theseefforts to put blocks in the way
of getting the government'sbusiness done, uh, and you know
radical judges show up, uh, andyou've got legislators who want
(51:13):
to play like their judgessometimes, and so so how, how do
we get a handle on that?
Because these things are justhamstringing the ability of the
country to operate, and it's notjust the military, it's all
throughout government.
Bruce Tucker Smith (51:30):
It is.
Well, let's start from theConstitution.
We do believe in three separate, co-equal branches of
government, what we call checksand balances.
And yes, the United StatesSupreme Court is the co-equal
partner with the executivebranch and the legislative
branch.
That is true, yep.
(51:51):
Our Constitution does notprovide for the inferior federal
courts.
It doesn't create thesubservient courts of appeal or
the federal district courts.
So you have a federal districtcourt judge in Washington.
One in particular is justobviously reading off the script
and doing the bidding of theDemocrat Party.
There needs to be a legislativefix immediately limiting the
(52:17):
power of a federal districtcourt judge to only that
geographic area contemplated bythat federal district.
It is insane and I don't knowhow we got here the notion that
a federal district court judgein Seattle could stop a national
program that has globalimplication.
(52:39):
So the answer is that theCongress of the United States,
hopefully tomorrow, will passlegislation limiting the
authority of the federaldistrict court judges to only
that geographic region wherethat court sits.
That would be fix number one.
Al Palmer (52:57):
Setting jurisdiction Right, so, but you know that's a
partly political process inCongress.
Can the Department of Justicedo anything about that?
Bruce Tucker Smith (53:13):
No, no, because you know, until see,
Congress by law creates andfunds the various subordinate
judicial functions, not theSupreme Court, but below the
Supreme Court.
So it is Congress's duty, itscheck and its balance on the
(53:35):
judicial.
It would be to that the JusticeDepartment fits within the
executive branch, and so theAttorney General, the nation's
chief prosecutor.
She can't just say, well, I'mnot going to follow what a
federal district court judgesays, can't do that, she doesn't
have that authority.
So what has to happen isCongress has got to do it.
Al Palmer (53:58):
Yeah, I see that.
Yeah, well, that's going to bea tall order here.
Bruce Tucker Smith (54:02):
Or you know in some of these things that and
I'm sure that the Department ofJustice has got some great
lawyers they are probablyposturing these decisions you're
talking about for appeal up tothe DC Circuit and fast track it
to the US Supreme Court.
Talking about for appeal up tothe DC Circuit and fast track it
to the US Supreme Court.
And essentially, to myknowledge, the US Supreme Court
has never spoken to this issueabout whether or not their
(54:25):
inferior federal district courtscan issue rulings of national
implication.
So the other fix if thelegislative branch doesn't fix
it, certainly the AttorneyGeneral Bondi can certainly make
sure her division is gettingthose cases on appeal and up to
the Supreme Court, you know, asquick as possible.
(54:47):
That would be the other way.
Al Palmer (54:49):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of kind of there, I
think, because DOJ has got someinternal regulations about how
jurisdictions work, I guessacross the country, right?
Bruce Tucker Smith (55:01):
And the DOJ is a very detailed regulated
organization.
They're very highly ethicalpeople.
In the main, they're greatlawyers.
They hold themselves toextraordinarily tight standards
and always have been.
Generally speaking, most of theDOJ attorneys are some of the
(55:23):
very finest in the world and,interesting, a lot of Assistant
DOJ attorneys are also JAGreservists.
There's a large community.
Al Palmer (55:31):
I was going to say it may very well be, yeah, that's
good news, yep, Well, I'mhopeful that that situation will
get better in a hurry.
And, like you say, pete Hegsethis not putting up with a lot of
garbage.
They're off and running.
I think they've got a goodhandle on what they're doing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (55:50):
I think they're going to win and I can't
give you the citation off thetop of my head, but there's a
Supreme Court case where thejustices said famous quote
judges were not given the taskof running the army.
And ultimately you know thesechallenges to the transgender
issue in the military which wasstopped by the federal district
(56:11):
court judge in Washington that'snot going to last for 30
seconds once it gets to theSupreme Court, because the
Supreme Court is going to sayyou are invading the province of
the commander in chief, theexecutive branch.
You're a judge and, frankly,we're Supreme Court justices and
we don't get to touch that dutyeither.
So I'm fairly certain insuccess.
You know, eventual, it justtakes time to get there.
Al Palmer (56:34):
You know eventual, it just takes time to get there.
Well, so hopefully, what yourvision of this is, it will come
true, they will have a handle onthis and it'll slowly get back
to what we used to call normalin the past.
But this has been a huge bumpin the road, with fighting DEI.
Bruce Tucker Smith (56:52):
Well it is.
And, frankly, there are sleepercells of DEI proponents who are
in uniform, and we got to findthem and invite them to become
civilians.
Because, look, al, you and I'veseen it in our lifetimes.
Yes, we have a commander inchief now who is favorably
(57:13):
disposed to the way we think.
But politics is a fickle andfunny game.
In four years you might have avery leftist president come back
in and change the game again.
So the only bulwark againstthat is to get people in uniform
now.
Get the youngsters in whounderstand what their mission is
, protect the constitution frompolitics.
(57:36):
And you know the thing is, thethings that we're talking about
here are not political.
This is not political.
Al Palmer (57:43):
Yeah, it's American right.
Bruce Tucker Smith (57:46):
It absolutely is.
I'm not advocating a politicalstance here.
I'm just saying that, at leastin terms of my career field, the
Jags we dropped the ball, and Iwould be saying the same thing
if there were some militaryoperation that clearly violated,
for instance, the GenevaConventions.
We went and started bombingchurches and civilians
(58:06):
intentionally, and if some Jagdidn't stand up to that, I'd be
here making the same noise.
I'd ask where the hell were thelawyers?
Al Palmer (58:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Bruce Tucker Smith (58:16):
This is not a political statement, but we
need to get people of character.
We need to find them, we needto recruit them, we need to
culture them who put the countryahead of their careers.
Those are the people we have tofind and make military service
attractive to.
Al Palmer (58:34):
I love that idea of character and integrity and
putting something bigger thanyourself in front.
I love that.
That's just great.
Well, all we have to do now isgo to work and make sure that
happens.
Amen.
So what's next for you?
Are you going to write somemore about this, or where does
(58:55):
that go for Bruce Smith?
I?
Bruce Tucker Smith (58:58):
you know I'm a standing volunteer.
I will do what STARS or anybodyasked me to do, because I have
enough gray hair.
I've got a little bit ofbenefit of wisdom.
Now I want to help any way Ican.
I've been working extensivelywith Mike Rose at STARS.
Al Palmer (59:17):
Yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (59:18):
Mike is a great guy, several other
attorneys Gordy Hammack, louMichaels, some people who all
who served, who are fineattorneys now in the civilian
world, who are giving every bitof effort they can to work with
them, supporting General Bishop,and you know, just some of the
(59:39):
great people in STARS.
Any way we can be of help,we're going to do it.
Al Palmer (59:44):
Well, as I'm so grateful to you for jumping into
the fray with us here, and yourwritings are extraordinary and
I'd encourage our viewers to gocheck that out on our website
extraordinary, and I'd encourageour viewers to go check that
out on our website, starsus.
We have a great uh inventorythere of your writings and
others as well uh, and this oneis a particular good one the
(01:00:05):
question of paternity.
That's what we're talking abouttoday, uh, but there's more uh,
and the viewers can watch ourown podcasts.
We got a whole library ofpodcasts there now that they can
go back and see some otherviews of this and how that's
affected, things like theConstitution.
There are partners in this,people like the Calvert Task
(01:00:27):
Group and the MacArthur Society,who have written extensively
about some of this too of thistoo.
So, bruce, thank you so muchfor being with us and talking
about your terrific experiencewith the Air Force and DHS and
keeping our country on the rightcourse here.
As we fight some of the causticelements that may still be
(01:00:48):
around.
Our goal is still to make themilitary work, to make our
people proud of our country andto make sure our warfighters
have what they need, and the lawis a big part of that, as we
both know.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:03):
Yep.
Al Palmer (01:01:03):
Well, I'm honored to be here.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:05):
This is an amazing experience with you.
Thank you for this opportunityto share my thoughts, for
whatever they're worth.
You know God bless you and thefolks who make STARS work.
Al Palmer (01:01:20):
And Bruce, thank you for your family offering you up
to help us out throughout theyears.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:26):
Well as I said my wife, both of her
parents were naval officers.
My father was a naval officeraviator.
I don't think there was anychance I wasn't going to be
doing this with you all.
Al Palmer (01:01:40):
Well, that's great.
Thanks so much, and, for ourviewers, thank you for tuning in
to another episode of Stars andStripes.
We'll be back with you nextweek with another great episode.
Until then, adios.
Hello again, America.
Welcome to another specialepisode of STARRS and Stripes.
I'm your host Commander AlPalmer, Navy retired and a
former Air Force F4 Wild Weasel.
If that's not confusing enough,I'm also an old museum director
.
I'm here today to talk to youabout the continuing mission of
(00:34):
STARRS to strengthen ourmilitary, to restore the warrior
ethos to defending our countryand to make sure that we're open
and transparent and honest withour people about how we do all
of that.
And a part of that, as youmight imagine, has to do with
our history in the recent pastof trying to get rid of a
(00:56):
program called Diversity, equityand Inclusion in the military.
Part of that was generated bythe old critical race theories
of the progressives from yearspast.
But we fought that battle, Ithink through this last election
and now that we have a newadministration we're beginning
to attack those problems head on.
(01:18):
And part of that has also beenthe issue of lawfare as it
relates to how those programsare being addressed.
Today.
To talk about that, I've got aspecial and very important guest
with me today.
Bruce Tucker Smith is a retiredAir Force JAG officer, judge
(01:41):
Advocate General.
If you ever saw the old serieson TV JAG.
It's kind of like that's whatit's about.
It's military service to themilitary to help with legal
affairs.
Part of that's the uniform codeof military justice, but also
policy and operations that gowith how the military has to
function and be lawful andresponsible to the people.
(02:06):
So Judge Smith was a 21-yearveteran JAG officer.
He served overseas, he servedin the CONUS.
He was at the command level,working on hard issues and
policies.
He also then went on, when heretired from the Air Force after
nearly 21 years, went on to bean administrative law judge for
(02:29):
the Department of HomelandSecurity, in which he retired
from An amazing record onworking with the law and with
military.
And Judge Smith, sir, it is aprivilege and an honor to have
you with us today to talk alittle bit about how that
affected you, what your view ofit was in your long career and
(02:51):
why it's important today to keeplaw a part of what we do in the
military but also beaccountable for it as well.
So, sir, welcome to the show.
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:02):
Well, I'm honored to be here and very
supportive of the STARRS mission.
It is an amazing group of humanbeings, men and women from
various services.
I'm just honored to be a partof this effort and to help any
way I can.
So thanks for having me.
This is going to be a greatconversation.
Al Palmer (03:19):
Well, it is so, thinking about your history, how
did you get into first of all,how did you get into law, and
then, how did you, by any crookof imagination, get into the
military?
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:33):
Well, it's actually the other way around.
I think it was inevitable thatI would be in the military.
I'm actually a fifth generationmilitary officer.
My father was a naval aviatorin World War II, korea, in the
early parts of Vietnam.
His father served in the sameartillery battery with Harry
Truman.
His father was a Union Cavalryofficer who fought at the Battle
(03:56):
of Chickamauga, and on and onall the way back to the
Revolution.
So I think it's inevitable thatI was going to put on a uniform
, because that's what the men inmy family always did.
Um, I really wanted to be apilot like my father and
unfortunately I got my mother'seyes.
So I was not going to be amilitary aviator, although I am
(04:18):
a pilot.
And because of my argumentativenature, I think it was foretold
that I would become an attorney.
So you know, always thought Iwould be in the military.
The law found me and it was agood suit.
And after law school it wasinevitable that I would, you
know, raise my hand and swearthe oath.
Al Palmer (04:40):
So when you did that, you obviously like I did too I
came from a military family andheld my hand up and said I'll
support the Constitution, notreally understanding where you
were going to go or how you'regoing to end up.
Did that work out about the wayyou thought it was, though,
when you joined?
Bruce Tucker Smith (04:59):
It did.
But I had the benefit of havingseen my father's career and and
I think I had a betterunderstanding of the military
than maybe most people who comein as attorneys through what is
called the direct appointmentroute.
And then we're going to getinto that.
You know, we have the serviceacademies.
That's an obvious way ofcommissioning.
You have people who do ROTC.
I actually audited some ROTCclasses undergrad.
(05:22):
I just didn't want to commit tothe haircut and the uniforms.
When I was in college I was,but the always yeah, yeah.
Jags typically come into theservice through what is called
the direct appointment routeright after law school.
They you know the various Jagcores are the various JAG Corps
(05:45):
are good jobs and a lot ofpeople.
It's a buyer's market forattorney talent, because there
are way too many law schools inAmerica spitting out way too
many young graduates andeverybody's looking for a job,
so it's fairly easy for themilitary branches to find
(06:05):
lawyers they can put in auniform.
That's about 70% of the lawyerforce throughout the Department
of Defense come from the directappointment route.
The other 20% 30% come fromwhat is called the funded legal
education or the excess leaveprograms or the excess leave
(06:29):
programs.
These are people, typically O3s, young O3s, who meet a
competitive board in theirvarious services and if they are
selected they go to law school.
They're still accruing time andgrade.
Law school is their militaryassignment.
When they commission or whenthey graduate from law school,
pass the bar, then they leavewhatever career field they had
behind and now they become judgeadvocates in the service.
(06:49):
So about a 70-30 mix betweendirect appointees and people who
had prior military experience.
Al Palmer (06:57):
So those, though, that had the prior military
experience by the time theybecame a JAG, had the experience
of being in and around theservice and probably, like us,
you know, may have come from amilitary family, so they may
have been more tuned in to themilitary than the guys who just
came in.
Bruce Tucker Smith (07:13):
That's generally true, yes.
Al Palmer (07:15):
Yep, so did you notice that right away when you
started practicing as a JAG?
Bruce Tucker Smith (07:24):
It's pretty clear who had prior service and
who didn't.
And I think yeah, and really oneof the big problems that I
think led to the entire DEI messis you have to understand that
in the main, america's lawschools are bastions of liberal,
(07:45):
left-leaning thought.
It's just, it's not evendebatable.
America's law schools arepretty much run by the political
left.
There are some law schoolsmaybe church-affiliated or maybe
more conservative, but in thevast majority of cases America's
law schools are run by liberalsand in many times very
(08:08):
left-leaning liberals, almost tothe point of Marxism.
So these young folks who comeout of law school with no prior
military experience, they've hadthis what I call soft Marxism
ingrained, perhaps throughouttheir undergraduate, but
certainly in law school, and sothey come to the military with
(08:29):
these leftist notions already inmind.
Al Palmer (08:34):
Preconceived ideas about how things should work.
Bruce Tucker Smith (08:37):
Yep and they're.
You know the vague leftistdiatribe and dogma which they
learn.
These words they utter them inlaw school.
They really don't know whatthey mean or what they're saying
and they think that themilitary is just like Microsoft
or Walmart.
Why can't we all just playnicely together and do diversity
(09:00):
and equity and inclusiveness?
And again in the minds of manynew attorneys who joined the
military.
They really don't understandwhere they are, they don't get
it.
Al Palmer (09:13):
Isn't that really a critical issue, though?
Because you have to know theculture of the military to
understand its mission and therequirements for the discipline
and order that have to go withthat, which, you're right, it's
different than working forAmazon or Boeing or somebody
else, so the culture has got tobe there too.
Bruce Tucker Smith (09:35):
It is.
And look, this is theprofession of arms.
The military is a professionand we have one mission to fight
and win the nation's wars.
In the Air Force we say ourmission is to fly, fight and win
, and don't you forget it.
But it's the same thing.
Anything that is not that isdangerous.
(09:57):
Anything that is not aboutfighting and winning America's
wars is dangerous.
Al Palmer (10:04):
As a famous fighter pilot, adolf Galan, said, all
else is rubbish, and it'sexactly right.
You have to be able to do thejob and focus on that.
So the role of the JAG, then,is to interpret the law for the
commanders or for setting policy, maybe at a little higher level
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (10:26):
Well, it depends on who you are and what
your job is.
I would argue that the primaryreason we have attorneys in the
military going all the way backto Colonel John Tudor in the
Revolutionary Army, who was thefirst judge advocate for George
Washington, who was the firstjudge advocate for George
Washington the role of themilitary attorney is to instill
(10:48):
and maintain assisting thecommanders and instilling and
maintaining discipline in afighting force.
That's the main reason we exist.
The disciplinary tools, whetherit be nonjudicial punishment or
the court martial world that isthe reason we were invented.
Unfortunately, over time thathas gotten fuzzied and there are
(11:15):
people in the various JAG Corpswho frankly don't like the
courtroom, they don't like themessiness of the military
justice system and they wouldrather focus on being careerists
who sit behind their desks andwork on their own resumes.
I'm pretty hard on the JAGCorps here, but as you increase
in rank, you know, just like inthe flying business Al.
(11:40):
Most of the courtroom work isdone by the captains in the Army
, air Force and Marine Corps orthe lieutenants in the Navy.
They do most of the realcourtroom work.
Unfortunately, after that, asyou progress and rank, you find
yourself not really associatedwith the courtroom.
You're more of a policy personwho write legal reviews for your
(12:04):
bosses which somebody reads andsticks in a drawer someplace.
Yeah, yeah, it really is it.
And again, one of the problemsof how we got to this DEI mess
is, frankly, I don't know thenumbers and I hope it's a small
number of attorneys.
Stop forgetting what theirmission was, which is to assist
(12:28):
the commander maintainingdiscipline in the greater
mission of winning America'swars.
And I think the most importantthing of this part of the
conversation, Al, is, whenyou're a military attorney, your
client is the service that youwork for.
If you're a Navy JAG your clientis the United States Navy.
If you're an Army JAG, yourclient is the United States Army
(12:52):
.
Yes, you work with people, yes,people sign your performance
reports, but your client is theservice.
And again, I think one of thereasons we got into this DEI
mess is because we had too manyattorneys who, if they ever
understood it, forgot that theirclient was the armed force
whose uniform they wore.
Al Palmer (13:14):
So that's a really good answer to the question of
who you serve and who you'reworking for.
But in today's world, when weget into things like joint
service operations and thingslike joint basing and those kind
of decisions that are made, itgets a little bit squirrely,
(13:35):
doesn't it?
I remember that happening inHawaii when they started
changing the bases to jointbases.
Who owned the base?
Who works for who?
What traditions do you keep?
Which ones don't you?
Which boss do you work for, orwhich one don't you?
That gets pretty interestingand kind of complex, doesn't it?
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:53):
It does.
But I would say that the answerbecomes and pardon the lawyer
semantics here in the jointenvironment, in the purple
environment, then your client isthe mission.
Al Palmer (14:05):
Which is the joint service part of that.
Yes, it is the mission, whichis the joint service part of
that, yeah, it's the mission,it's the mission.
So as long as you're true tothat, then you're still doing
the job you need to do,absolutely so.
You've written very intenselyabout some of the failures of
the leadership in the JAG Corpswhen it comes to DEI and what's
(14:28):
been happening within thePentagon, and some of that is
the same problem that the restof the service is not just the
JAG's face, but it's standing upand doing the right thing,
being the good leader, makingsure that you do things that are
both lawful as well as makesense from the service
perspective.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Bruce Tucker Smith (14:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And of course, the touchstonefor this conversation is
recently the Secretary ofDefense, Mr Hegseth, fired the
Judge Advocate General of theArmy and the Judge Advocate
General of the Air Force, andthere's been a lot of
post-mortem hand-wringing,mostly from the political left,
(15:10):
you know, wailing that this isthe end of democracy, they've
removed the guardrails and thatthe independent arbiters of the
law have now been stripped away,leaving the military services
to be rogue entities notconstrained by the law.
(15:36):
And that's just hot air.
The fundamental notion is thisAn attorney can and should be
fired by his client if he nolonger enjoys the confidence of
the client.
It happens every day in thecivilian world.
Military attorneys are notnecessarily paragons of virtue,
intellect reasoning.
They're not.
(15:57):
They're human beings just likeanybody else who practices law.
If you're not taking care ofyour client's needs and the
mission, you get fired.
And I'm pretty certain that'swhy Secretary of HEGSF fired the
TJAGs of the Army and the AirForce.
And there were many reasons forthat, but I think the best
(16:18):
example, al, is the now infamous9 August 22 memorandum for the
entire Air Force and Space Forcesigned by then Chief of Staff
of the Air Force, general Brown,and then Chief of Staff of the
Space Operations, generalRaymond.
And this was, I think so manypeople have seen this memorandum
(16:38):
, but it basically calls for themandatory implementation of
racial quotas.
In there it is of militarymembers, which is absolutely
against the law.
You cannot.
You cannot discriminate againstpeople or for people based on
(16:59):
their skin color, and that'sexactly what this did.
It's incomprehensible to methat an attorney with any
experience let this documentever see light of day Now.
I'd like to hope, and I'd liketo believe that there were
attorneys who saw this andjumped up on their client's desk
(17:22):
and yelled and screamed untilthey were purple in the face,
regardless of rank.
Sometimes you have to do thatas an attorney, to tell them
that this is wrong.
I believe if there ever was amoment where you pull out your
saber and fall on it, this wasone of those moments.
But more than the legal aspect,and you have that line right
(17:44):
there.
Who on earth, wearing amilitary uniform, allowed this
language to go out, talkingabout leveraging diversity to
enhance the Air and SpaceForces' ability to deter and, if
necessary, deny our nation'scompetitors, who wrote that Our
(18:04):
competitors.
Al Palmer (18:05):
That is phenomenal, yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:08):
North Korea, China, large portions of the
Middle East, Iran.
They're not our competitors,they are our enemies.
And what do we mean to denythem?
We want to beat them.
What do we need to deny them?
We want to beat them.
Al Palmer (18:27):
Make sure they don't resurface.
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:29):
Yeah, and so you know the piece of paper
that I have on my wall and allattorneys do.
It says attorney and counselorat law.
Well, the attorney part meansstick your nose in the books and
know what the law says.
The counselor part is sometimesyou've got to be the voice of
reason in a group full of peoplehellbent on running off the
(18:50):
edge of a cliff.
And again I have to ask wherewere the attorneys who had the
responsibility to make sure thatthat memorandum?
You've just seen that thatthing was never written and
never saw the light of day.
Where were they?
Al Palmer (19:06):
At the very least, at the very least the question,
the basis for asserting thatthat was something that was
going to increase the lethalityof the force.
How do you, how do you, justifythat?
Bruce Tucker Smith (19:19):
Yeah, I mean again consistent with the
mission, which is to fight andwin our nation's wars, and
anything that isn't that iswrong.
This completely takes, ifyou're an attorney, takes your
service away from the notion ofmeritocracy, which is what we
absolutely must have to be aneffective fighting force and let
(19:42):
me get a little lawyer-ish onyou here.
Force, and let me get a littlelawyerish on you here.
The American Bar Associationhas what it calls its model
rules of professionalresponsibility, and every state
in the union has its rules ofethics, but most of them are
patterned on what the ABA rulessay, and I point to rule of
professional responsibility 2.1,which, in representing a client
(20:04):
, a lawyer, shall exerciseindependent professional
judgment and render candidadvice.
Al Palmer (20:15):
That's wise.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:17):
That's the law.
That is the rule that governsevery attorney who has a license
Rendering independentprofessional judgment.
That means sometimes you've gotto swing against the tide,
sometimes you've got to be theone voice in the room calling
for sanity when everybody elsewants to jump off the cliff.
There's another rule, which isrule one, point three, which
(20:40):
kind of talks about how muchhorsepower you have to put
behind that independentresponsibility, and it says that
a lawyer shall act withreasonable diligence in
representing the client.
Diligence meaning, of course,steady, earnest and energetic
effort.
Well, I don't see any steady,energetic, independent effort in
(21:02):
that document we just put upand everything that we have seen
in the DEI world as it infectedthe military.
It smacks of a completeabrogation of professional
responsibility and military dutyby some I hope not all by some
uniformed attorneys, and that'sprobably what resulted in
(21:23):
Secretary Hegseth, you know,deciding he no longer had trust
and confidence in his lawyers,and so he was absolutely right
to do what he did, just as anycivilian attorney will get fired
by their client if the clientdoesn't have trust in what
they're doing will get fired bytheir client if the client
doesn't have trust in whatthey're doing.
Al Palmer (21:47):
Yeah, and that is the compact between the commander
and the attorney the JAG in thiscase to do the things that need
to be done to enforce themission of the military.
But these folks didn't give up,did they?
Just by being exposed andcaught in that, didn't they kind
of go on to justify what theydid?
Bruce Tucker Smith (22:06):
Well, they're zealots and they're not
going to be deterred by the lawor logic or reason.
They're zealots, they have aworldview.
I think some of them are trulyMarxist in their orientation.
I think some of them are trulyMarxist in their orientation.
I think some of them arewell-meaning but foolish, who
just again don't understand.
(22:26):
And these are people who havebirds and stars on their
uniforms.
They still don't get it.
They're far more interested incurrying favor with people who
can ensure their longevity.
They're people who make suretheir career comes first.
And I, you know those of us whocome from military backgrounds.
It's, it is, it is maddeningbeyond definition.
(22:51):
Uh, there, no, there have alwaysbeen careerists in the military
yes um, if you go back to theBritish duo of Gilbert and
Sullivan, their very famousoperetta of HMS Pinafore,
there's a very famous song inthere that talks just about this
phenomenon of people with nopolitical or with no military
(23:16):
background acumen interest whonevertheless became high ranking
in the british navy.
And of course all that gilbertand sullivan wrote about was all
social critique.
It was sort of the internet ofits day.
But there's a great line in oneof the songs which says stick
close to your desks and never goto sea and you'll all end up
(23:36):
admirals in the queen's navy.
And you'll all end up admiralsin the Queen's Navy.
And that phenomenon exists tothis very day.
I can't tell you the numbers ofpeople I knew on active duty
over their career and nothingelse.
They didn't know a flight linefrom a clothesline, but they
knew how to curry favor with theright people, get promoted.
Al Palmer (23:59):
And if that meant?
Bruce Tucker Smith (24:00):
singing the song of the day to keep the
political people happy.
So be it.
Al Palmer (24:07):
Yeah, I guess that's the result of a large
bureaucracy.
People do get to hide out in it.
Yeah Well, then you know, it wasthat way even in some of the
active forces, when people gotpromoted and then went off to
the desk jobs too.
And that's, I think, one of theroot problems I see today is
you've got a lot of very seniorleaders, three and four stars,
(24:30):
and then SES folks and others inthe civilian side who have no
direct relationship to themilitary, and they're like you
say.
They're the ones that getabstract and focused on
something entirely different,and I don't think it's any
different.
Bruce Tucker Smith (24:46):
Well, and it's an important point to be
made, which is we absolutelyadhere to the notion of civilian
control of the military.
Absolutely the truth, and itmust be.
That way we don't have militaryjuntas.
Al Palmer (25:02):
And yes, you must follow the guidance and the
instruction.
Bruce Tucker Smith (25:05):
So long as you're wearing the uniform, you
got to follow the guidance andinstruction of the commander in
chief.
Okay, I get it, but there is amatter of honor and integrity
which says that sometimes youmust pull out that saber and
fall on it to make a greaterpoint, you know?
Yes, if I were in uniform whenPresident Biden was my commander
(25:29):
in chief, I would have salutedsmartly and said yes, sir, until
I could no longer do it, atwhich time my option was to
leave and then once I was.
I didn't speak my mind, I justI've got to wonder where were
the careerists in the variousservice jags who saw this
(25:49):
disaster being worked on thevarious armed services.
Where were they?
Where was their saber fallingmoment?
Al Palmer (25:58):
Yeah, the two generals that you mentioned
being atop of the class, if youwill, in their respective
services, must have known thatthere was an issue there.
I mean, they must have beenwatching Milley testifying in
Congress about DEI, and all thatat the same time, and yet they
didn't say anything.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:19):
No, because they had lovely three-star jobs
and they were making a nicepaycheck and, you know, they got
a nice parking spot at thePentagon.
Al Palmer (26:27):
So and maybe a follow-on board job someplace
when they return.
Absolutely.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:34):
Absolutely.
Al Palmer (26:34):
Or, and those I mean those are realities that I think
we've had for some time.
But you're right, the personalstandard of loyalty beyond self
has got to be there in ourwarfighters, but also the
leadership too.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you raise your handand you swear the oath you are
swearing to defend with yourvery life.
Not the flag, not baseball, notapple pie, not your mom, not
the girl next door, it's theConstitution.
That's the thing we say we'lldie for.
(27:15):
And we, the professionalmilitary, our job, is to be the
guardians of that document.
And when something happens thatbegins to rot the core values
of that profession, that service, that duty, you've got a choice
to make as an American.
(27:36):
You can either participate init by acquiescing, or you stand
up and be counted, andfrequently you're going to make
yourself very unpopular bysaying that the emperor is
wearing no clothes.
But again, where were thelawyers, the people who know
better, who are in a position inevery element of the command
(28:00):
structure, all the way down fromthe basic unit of whatever
armed service, all the way tothe Pentagon and the Joint
Chiefs level?
There are lawyers there, peoplewho should be wielding
influence and good judgment onbehalf of their client, the
mission and the service.
And I didn't see it.
Al Palmer (28:19):
You know it's interesting the mission and the
service, and I didn't see it.
You know it's interesting.
I remember when I was on thestaff of the commander in chief
of the Pacific Fleet years ago,the airlines were giving away
free stuff when you were afrequent traveler.
And one day the financial guyscame to me and said I was a
financial policy there at thetime policy officer and they
(28:42):
said look, what do we do?
This stuff that the guys aregetting, don't we, the
government, own it Because webought the ticket for them?
Don't we, the government, havethat?
And isn't it wrong to be givingthem something worth money when
we don't allow them to havelunch with a contractor and that
kind of stuff?
So I went over to the JAG officeand I thought this would be
(29:04):
kind of an easy one, right?
And I said so, colonel, what dowe do about this?
And he says well, you know, wegot to go out and seize all this
stuff and we got to make surethat it's accounted for and then
we can figure out how much it'sworth.
And that happens.
Then we'll go out and chargethem for on their travel voucher
.
And I said wait a minute.
You know you're settingsomething off here that's going
(29:26):
to create a real problem for us,and they did they.
They ended up with warehousesfull of umbrellas, golf balls
and teas and stuff like that.
Uh, when they could have justsaid, look, write it off, it's
insignificant, just get rid ofit.
Bruce Tucker Smith (29:40):
Yeah that when they could have just said
look, write it off, it'sinsignificant, just get rid of
it.
Al Palmer (29:45):
That's what they ended up doing early on.
What I was what I was impressedwith was how much time Bruce
took to do it.
It should have been a verysimple decision on the part of
the commander anyway, but but hewas not getting good advice
from the attorneys, who werebeing too literal in what
they're looking at.
Bruce Tucker Smith (30:03):
Yeah, and again, it is one of the
insidious natures.
You know, a good lawyer,frankly, is the lawyer, she or
he who will jump up on thecommander's desk, regardless of
rank, and, figuratively speaking, slap him around a little bit
and say look.
I I know you don't rank me byfour grades, but I'm your lawyer
(30:23):
and I'm here to tell you, I'mhere to protect you.
Damn it, let me take care ofyou.
Uh, even though that's not apopular thing to do and say, and
um oftentimes you get rankintimidation, uh like, and
especially you get young jagswho don't want to make the Jags
above them angry.
So it's better not to do or sayanything, and go along to get
(30:45):
along right.
Well, I'm to get along, and youwhat you?
Then you defeat the notion ofgrowing leadership in the armed
services, which you, what youcreate is followership.
Al Palmer (30:56):
So so has there been an effort to change that
attitude within the JAGs.
Bruce Tucker Smith (31:02):
Well, not to my knowledge, not since I was
first commissioned back in 1984.
No, it's human nature Take careof your career first,
unfortunately, is the pole starfor many people not all, I will
tell you.
I had the honor of serving withsome of the very best military
officers, best attorneys.
(31:23):
I ever had the honor of servingwith great people who
completely understood their jobsand mission.
But there are also thecareerists who live their entire
lives in an effort not tooffend anybody.
They just keep their shoesshine and a smile on their face
and they hope they will.
You know, stick close to theirdesks, never go to sea and make
(31:45):
animal and unfortunately ithappens too much.
And when you get a policy likethis DEI thing come down the
line, they're just not equippedby way of character or
experience to stand up and dowhat the little voice in the
back of their head is tellingthem probably ought to be done,
but they just don't have thecharacter to do it.
Al Palmer (32:05):
Well, especially if they were brought up in the
environment in college, goingthrough law school, socialism,
marxism being related to that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (32:15):
Yeah, and never fully understanding to
that.
Yeah, and never fullyunderstanding exactly who you
are and what it means when youput on that uniform.
I don't need to explain to thisaudience.
It is a profession, it is acalling, it is a subculture in
America with our own set ofvalues, duty, honor, country.
Al Palmer (32:38):
Well, and unfortunately, they wanted to
take that out of the culture allof a sudden, too.
Maybe that's that's coming back.
That's one of the things we'restill fighting for, but when it,
when it comes to being able tostand up and do the right things
, you know, you still have tohave that notion inside that
you're right and you're doingthe things that have to be done
(32:58):
in spite of the fact that youknow someone's telling're doing
the things that have to be donein spite of the fact that you
know someone's telling us to dosomething that's not popular.
So how do you train people todo that?
wow how do you train?
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:10):
people.
How do you train people to havecharacter?
You can teach it to your bluein the and maybe some of it
sinks in, but I think it'sindividual.
It comes with how you're raised, who your family was, what your
(33:32):
values are.
It calls for, frankly, a muchmore rigorous screening at the
beginning of who comes into theservice as a judge, advocate.
And I'll tell you, you knowwe're, we don't.
We don't fly the airplanes.
We are not the pointy end ofthe sword, we're not commanding
(33:52):
the rifle companies or thebattalions.
But the impact that the JAGshave on the service is, I might
add, grossly disproportional tothe numbers of people who
actually are JAGs.
Lawyers have a huge impact onthe military, just as we do
throughout American society,can't?
Al Palmer (34:09):
help it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (34:11):
And that means, you know, that means
we've got to do a much betterjob of finding the right people
and not the ideologues.
As I've written previously, oneof the insidious aspects of all
this is you get people incommand authority in the JAG
Corps who have the stars or thebirds on their uniform.
(34:32):
They're in the position to pickthe new people coming into the
JAG Corps.
They are the people in aposition to make sure the right
people get the right jobs, getthe right assignments, get the
right schools, get the rightendorsements, and so it becomes
a self-fulfilling organization.
And I'm afraid that a littlebit of that has happened, that
the people of a certain ideologyare now so deeply entrenched in
(34:55):
the various JAG Corpsdepartments that it's going to
take a big effort to weed thosepeople out, because I think what
they believe and what they dois destructive.
This is not a difference ofpolitical opinion.
I think it's destructive.
It's antithetical to thenotions of duty, honor, country,
service before self, um.
(35:18):
It's antithetical tomeritocracy, um, and something
drastic is going to have to bedone so it's kind of like takes
two to tango, though, doesn't it?
Al Palmer (35:30):
you've got the attorneys who should be standing
up and doing the right things,as we described, but it's also a
role of the commander not toaccept stuff that they're not
sure of themselves, and they canstand up as well at the same
time, right?
So yeah, so it's that playagainst the, the command
structure, as well as the legaladvice yeah, and, and, and it is
(35:57):
a command responsibility andsometimes you.
Bruce Tucker Smith (36:02):
It's a two-way street.
The commanders need toencourage their attorneys to
show some fortitude.
You know you're in the fighterpilot business right, and there
are rules that you're supposedto follow.
You're not supposed to goflying through the canyon,
you're not supposed to fly underhigh power lines, all those
kinds of things.
Al Palmer (36:23):
That's frowning on us .
Bruce Tucker Smith (36:26):
And yet I don't want an Air Force that
doesn't have those guys in it.
And so part of being anattorney, on the one hand, you
must maintain military decorumand the rank structure and do
regard and respect for yoursuperior officers.
However, doctors and lawyersare unique because it's your
(36:48):
professional knowledge.
Sometimes you've got to shutthe door and it doesn't make any
difference what your rank is.
You've got to make sure yourclient gets it right.
I liken it to the fighter pilotbusiness, as you know better
than I.
Down on the ground, you knowthe captain salutes the guy
wearing stars, but in thebriefing room and once you step
out to the jet, it's the guy whocan fly and fight and lead.
(37:10):
He's the guy that's leading theelement.
I have been in some post-flightdebriefs where I've seen
captains and majors chew out 06sbecause they screwed up, you
know, in an engagement.
Well, sometimes I mean rank isvery important.
I'm not going to say it isn't,but sometimes the person who has
the professional knowledge andthe skill has got to assert
(37:32):
their will for the greater goodof the client and the mission.
Some of the best relationships.
Al Palmer (37:41):
And we do work hard at training people that way or
at least we used to so thatthey'd have that fortitude,
they'd have the sense of beingconfident and right in what they
did, and when they weren'tright they'd admit it and say
you know, all right, we screwedup, we're not going to do that
again.
Bruce Tucker Smith (37:57):
Yeah, If you're going to jump up on the
O6's desk and yell and sayingyou know, all right, we screwed
up, we're not going to do thatagain.
Yeah, if you're going to jumpup on the 06's desk and yell and
scream, I'm all for it.
But you damn well better beright.
Al Palmer (38:05):
Exactly I mean you've got to be right.
So that's where we depend onthat wisdom of the laws and the
lawyers in the service to beable to tell us those things and
to adequately take care of theproblem.
And yeah, it's risky to careersand it's risky to commanders
(38:25):
too if they make the wrongdecision.
But again, getting the bestinformation and best guidance
you can probably is the best youcan do with it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (38:35):
Well, you know.
And let's talk about risk.
Well, you know, let's talkabout risk.
You have flown with people whogave, as Lincoln said, the last
full measure of devotion.
Al Palmer (38:48):
Doing a hard thing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (38:49):
Well, in Jag world, you may get a few paper
cuts and you may lose your job,but you're not going to die.
So my challenge is you knowwhat?
Life is hard and sometimesyou've got to make hard personal
choices.
What's really important to you,your career?
(39:09):
Well, certainly you've got topay the mortgage.
I get that, but it's themission, it's the constitution,
it's the maintenance of ourprofession so that we can do our
jobs.
And if that means you've got totake a few heat rounds, it
might hurt your career.
Well, people have given a hellof a lot more than that in the
(39:29):
defense of the nation.
Al Palmer (39:32):
Well, and that's an important aspect of that,
because if you don't do it thatway, people get hurt and die,
and it's that simple.
And you know we all try toavoid it and we do a pretty good
job with it most of the time.
But I've seen it go the otherway, and particularly with the
DEI.
The Navy had a very tragicexample of that when they tried
(39:56):
to push a female pilot throughtraining and she wasn't able to
do the work on the carrier andshe ended up hitting the round
down, killing herself and theguy she was flying with, because
they pushed out too early.
They wanted to get an exampleof a female that was flying at
sea and they were trying to beatthe air force, I think actually
(40:18):
.
But but those are terribledisplays of judgment.
When those people knew that shewasn't ready, they knew that it
was not going to work, theyshould have gone back and
retrained her and and maybesolved the problem.
But it didn't happen that way.
And maybe solve the problem.
(40:39):
But it didn't happen that way,and I think we still find some
examples.
I just offer that as one casewhen that happens, because
you're right.
You don't just put them backinto a training cycle in a
college class on ethics and law,you put them in a cockpit, or
you put them in a cockpit, oryou put them in a tank, or you
put them in an armored vehiclesomeplace exposed to real danger
(41:03):
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (41:05):
Yeah, and look in my own case.
I soloed when I was 12 yearsold.
There's no doubt in my mind Iwould have been a fine military
pilot, but the military didn'tlet me be a pilot because I
didn't meet the standards.
And the fact that my feelingswere hurt about it is just too
damn bad.
You can't make decisions whichneed to be made on objectively
(41:31):
sound criteria meritocracy youcannot change those because
somebody's feelings are going toget hurt.
You know this is the military.
We have a hard job.
You know I can whine all I wantto about not being a pilot, but
the simple fact is I wasinferior, I couldn't make the
grade, I didn't have the eyesPeriod, End of discussion.
Al Palmer (41:54):
And it would have been wrong to modify a cockpit
or a helmet or whatever just soI could get to play that reminds
me of one of my commanders invietnam, a really great guy, big
bear of a guy, and when he hada problem he put his arm around
your shoulder and he'd say he'dsay al, I hear what you're
saying, but that sounds like apersonal problem to me.
(42:17):
Go work it out at home.
Bruce Tucker Smith (42:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Al Palmer (42:21):
And there you go.
You've got to stick to what thestandards are and you've got to
be exceptional and you've gotto be not perfect, but you've
got to be really good at whatyou do.
Bruce Tucker Smith (42:32):
I promise you, the bad guys are sending
their very best at us.
Al Palmer (42:37):
Yes, and we do have to be ready for that in the
future.
So that gets me to where we gofrom here.
You know we've got a partialhandle on restoring meritocracy,
getting rid of the causticeffects of DEI and Marxism.
Maybe it could come back to usagain.
(42:59):
But what do we do now toinspire a new generation or two
of people like you and me, whogrew up in the military around
it, who really value that Only asmall percentage of the
population actually does serve?
Uh, there's a huge pool ofpeople out there that we used to
(43:20):
be able to rely on who haven'tshown up recently.
Now, all of a sudden, they arecoming back, which I think is
great news.
Yeah, uh, but is there educationinvolved in this somewhere it's
.
Bruce Tucker Smith (43:32):
it's a multi-faceted approach, and I'll
talk about the JAG Corps.
Frankly, I think we need to getrid of some of not people who
come with the leftist baggage,who see the military as a social
petri dish.
We want to affirmatively,through a rigorous process, find
(44:12):
the right people who aresuitable for this profession,
the profession of arms, aslawyers.
Next, you have got to and I tipmy hat to the Marine Corps
their fundamental orientation oftheir attorneys is that they
are Marines first and lawyerssecond.
We need to get completely, atleast in the Air Force, away
(44:34):
from the notion of you're just alawyer in a uniform.
No, you need to get completely,at least in the Air Force, away
from the notion of you're justa lawyer in a uniform.
No, you need to be a militaryofficer whose duty it is to be
that military officer.
And that includes getting ridof the core concept of the JAG
that fitness reports be writtenby line commanders and not
(44:56):
lawyers, fitness reports bewritten by line commanders and
not lawyers.
The promotion boards bepopulated not by lawyers but by
line officers, so that youcompete for promotion with
everybody else who's a lineofficer.
Get out of this.
I'll tell you, interestinglyenough, the very first Air Force
Judge, advocate General GeneralHarmon resisted strongly the
(45:16):
idea that we'd ever have aseparate JAG Corps in the Air
Force.
He warned against the fact thatit would become an insular
group of lawyers looking out forlawyers.
He was so right and we got awayfrom that.
The Marines are very wise aboutthis and they don't have a
separate JAG Corps in the MarineCorps, so yeah.
Al Palmer (45:36):
And that's what struck me as being really, you
know, a good solution there.
You know you're still competingas a line officer, which gets
you more connected with what themission is and responsibility
for being a part of the solution, rather than distant.
Bruce Tucker Smith (45:52):
And go back to.
I could spend hours talkingabout this, but go back to the
fundamental mission of being aJAG, which is assisting the
commander in the maintenance andcreation maintenance of
military justice.
We have too many generations ofyoung attorneys who are not
going to court marshals becausetheir bosses don't like going to
(46:13):
court.
They like the easieradministrative route because,
again, it's easier for them,they make their metrics.
They don't like going to court,they like the easier
administrative route because,again, it's easier for them,
they make their metrics, theydon't upset anybody and they
just slide through the system.
We need to get back in thecourtroom and get our JAG combat
skills honed up.
I think JAGs should haveanother military occupational
(46:34):
skill, whether it be air baseground defense, whether it be
whatever that a JAG can do.
they need to be doing it.
A because they are officers inthe military, like the Marines.
You need to have another combatskill, but, more importantly,
it connects you with the peoplewhom you're there to take care
of as an attorney, If you don'tknow what your client does every
(46:56):
day if I were a wing commanderNavy Air Force, I would insist
that my jags go up in ouraircraft at least once a quarter
, get up there and be doing themission.
You know, not this insular groupof law school graduates who are
wearing polyester.
No, you need to become amilitary officer so that, and
(47:23):
then I would look to recruit andretain those people who
understand that this is acalling.
Who?
Al Palmer (47:43):
have the fortitude to stand up to their bosses and
tell them when they're doing thewrong things and be willing to
suffer the personal consequencesif you know they disagree or
they get it wrong.
I guess the challenge for folkslike us and stars is how do we
go about affecting that change?
You know, I think we all agreewhat change probably is, but how
do you actually make it happen?
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:00):
That's going to be a tough nut to crack.
Perhaps you got to get theright people wearing stars on
their shirts.
You've got to get somelegislative picks, For instance.
For instance, I was unaware ofthis until Pete Hegseth was
nominated to be the SecDF.
Did you know that in the pastthree years the statutory job
(48:22):
description of the Secretary ofDefense by federal statute
created by Congress, made theSecretary of Defense the chief
DEI officer of the Department ofDefense?
It affirmatively gave theSecretary of Defense an
obligation to implement DEI inthe military.
Al Palmer (48:40):
Well that has got to be fixed.
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:42):
That has got to come out in the next Defense
Appropriations Act.
That's got to come out.
Take that statutory languageaway.
Al Palmer (48:54):
And that's taken various other forms over time
too, you know with shades ofgray.
And are they really this, arethey that and that's?
I think our concern is thatthat may sneak back in, even
though the president and thesecretary of defense and their
executive orders have definedpretty well that you can't
(49:15):
rename it, you can't regenerateit, it's gone.
But you know, we know, thatsometimes those things go
undercover somewhere.
Bruce Tucker Smith (49:25):
Well, we're fighting against a highly
determined enemy, the Marxistelement.
You know, we're old enough toremember Nikita Khrushchev
Public's saying they would buryus.
Yeah pounding a shoe on a desk.
Yeah, that's the kind of thingthat the younger folks roll
their eyes at, and I get youknow.
Okay, baby boomer, you know youget this condescending response
(49:47):
.
But the problem is the enemyhas not changed his goal and he
hasn't changed his tactics.
And we Americans too often arejust fat, dumb and intentionally
naive to all of this and theydon't understand what's
happening to us.
Al Palmer (50:06):
But people like us, have to fight back.
Well, and I think we are, and Ithink it is becoming effective,
at least to this point.
People have been listening tosome of the voices about exactly
what you're talking aboutGetting rid of that in religion
and culture and the military andgovernment, and getting rid of
(50:28):
overreaching big government thathas endless resources for
whatever else people want to do.
That's one of the steps.
Steps, too, isn't it?
Getting rid of the putting yournose up to the trough and
sucking all the money out of thesociety.
But there's another issue toothat's come up I wanted to
(50:51):
mention to you, and I knowyou're aware of it Outside of
the military, uh, justice system, uh, within justice in the
country, now, there's theseefforts to put blocks in the way
of getting the government'sbusiness done, uh, and you know
radical judges show up, uh, andyou've got legislators who want
(51:13):
to play like their judgessometimes, and so so how, how do
we get a handle on that?
Because these things are justhamstringing the ability of the
country to operate, and it's notjust the military, it's all
throughout government.
Bruce Tucker Smith (51:30):
It is.
Well, let's start from theConstitution.
We do believe in three separate, co-equal branches of
government, what we call checksand balances.
And yes, the United StatesSupreme Court is the co-equal
partner with the executivebranch and the legislative
branch.
That is true, yep.
(51:51):
Our Constitution does notprovide for the inferior federal
courts.
It doesn't create thesubservient courts of appeal or
the federal district courts.
So you have a federal districtcourt judge in Washington.
One in particular is justobviously reading off the script
and doing the bidding of theDemocrat Party.
There needs to be a legislativefix immediately limiting the
(52:17):
power of a federal districtcourt judge to only that
geographic area contemplated bythat federal district.
It is insane and I don't knowhow we got here the notion that
a federal district court judgein Seattle could stop a national
program that has globalimplication.
(52:39):
So the answer is that theCongress of the United States,
hopefully tomorrow, will passlegislation limiting the
authority of the federaldistrict court judges to only
that geographic region wherethat court sits.
That would be fix number one.
Al Palmer (52:57):
Setting jurisdiction Right, so, but you know that's a
partly political process inCongress.
Can the Department of Justicedo anything about that?
Bruce Tucker Smith (53:13):
No, no, because you know, until see,
Congress by law creates andfunds the various subordinate
judicial functions, not theSupreme Court, but below the
Supreme Court.
So it is Congress's duty, itscheck and its balance on the
(53:35):
judicial.
It would be to that the JusticeDepartment fits within the
executive branch, and so theAttorney General, the nation's
chief prosecutor.
She can't just say, well, I'mnot going to follow what a
federal district court judgesays, can't do that, she doesn't
have that authority.
So what has to happen isCongress has got to do it.
Al Palmer (53:58):
Yeah, I see that.
Yeah, well, that's going to bea tall order here.
Bruce Tucker Smith (54:02):
Or you know in some of these things that and
I'm sure that the Department ofJustice has got some great
lawyers they are probablyposturing these decisions you're
talking about for appeal up tothe DC Circuit and fast track it
to the US Supreme Court.
Talking about for appeal up tothe DC Circuit and fast track it
to the US Supreme Court.
And essentially, to myknowledge, the US Supreme Court
has never spoken to this issueabout whether or not their
(54:25):
inferior federal district courtscan issue rulings of national
implication.
So the other fix if thelegislative branch doesn't fix
it, certainly the AttorneyGeneral Bondi can certainly make
sure her division is gettingthose cases on appeal and up to
the Supreme Court, you know, asquick as possible.
(54:47):
That would be the other way.
Al Palmer (54:49):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of kind of there, I
think, because DOJ has got someinternal regulations about how
jurisdictions work, I guessacross the country, right?
Bruce Tucker Smith (55:01):
And the DOJ is a very detailed regulated
organization.
They're very highly ethicalpeople.
In the main, they're greatlawyers.
They hold themselves toextraordinarily tight standards
and always have been.
Generally speaking, most of theDOJ attorneys are some of the
(55:23):
very finest in the world and,interesting, a lot of Assistant
DOJ attorneys are also JAGreservists.
There's a large community.
Al Palmer (55:31):
I was going to say it may very well be, yeah, that's
good news, yep, Well, I'mhopeful that that situation will
get better in a hurry.
And, like you say, pete Hegsethis not putting up with a lot of
garbage.
They're off and running.
I think they've got a goodhandle on what they're doing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (55:50):
I think they're going to win and I can't
give you the citation off thetop of my head, but there's a
Supreme Court case where thejustices said famous quote
judges were not given the taskof running the army.
And ultimately you know thesechallenges to the transgender
issue in the military which wasstopped by the federal district
(56:11):
court judge in Washington that'snot going to last for 30
seconds once it gets to theSupreme Court, because the
Supreme Court is going to sayyou are invading the province of
the commander in chief, theexecutive branch.
You're a judge and, frankly,we're Supreme Court justices and
we don't get to touch that dutyeither.
So I'm fairly certain insuccess.
You know, eventual, it justtakes time to get there.
Al Palmer (56:34):
You know eventual, it just takes time to get there.
Well, so hopefully, what yourvision of this is, it will come
true, they will have a handle onthis and it'll slowly get back
to what we used to call normalin the past.
But this has been a huge bumpin the road, with fighting DEI.
Bruce Tucker Smith (56:52):
Well it is.
And, frankly, there are sleepercells of DEI proponents who are
in uniform, and we got to findthem and invite them to become
civilians.
Because, look, al, you and I'veseen it in our lifetimes.
Yes, we have a commander inchief now who is favorably
(57:13):
disposed to the way we think.
But politics is a fickle andfunny game.
In four years you might have avery leftist president come back
in and change the game again.
So the only bulwark againstthat is to get people in uniform
now.
Get the youngsters in whounderstand what their mission is
, protect the constitution frompolitics.
(57:36):
And you know the thing is, thethings that we're talking about
here are not political.
This is not political.
Al Palmer (57:43):
Yeah, it's American right.
Bruce Tucker Smith (57:46):
It absolutely is.
I'm not advocating a politicalstance here.
I'm just saying that, at leastin terms of my career field, the
Jags we dropped the ball, and Iwould be saying the same thing
if there were some militaryoperation that clearly violated,
for instance, the GenevaConventions.
We went and started bombingchurches and civilians
(58:06):
intentionally, and if some Jagdidn't stand up to that, I'd be
here making the same noise.
I'd ask where the hell were thelawyers?
Al Palmer (58:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Bruce Tucker Smith (58:16):
This is not a political statement, but we
need to get people of character.
We need to find them, we needto recruit them, we need to
culture them who put the countryahead of their careers.
Those are the people we have tofind and make military service
attractive to.
Al Palmer (58:34):
I love that idea of character and integrity and
putting something bigger thanyourself in front.
I love that.
That's just great.
Well, all we have to do now isgo to work and make sure that
happens.
Amen.
So what's next for you?
Are you going to write somemore about this, or where does
(58:55):
that go for Bruce Smith?
I?
Bruce Tucker Smith (58:58):
you know I'm a standing volunteer.
I will do what STARS or anybodyasked me to do, because I have
enough gray hair.
I've got a little bit ofbenefit of wisdom.
Now I want to help any way Ican.
I've been working extensivelywith Mike Rose at STARS.
Al Palmer (59:17):
Yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (59:18):
Mike is a great guy, several other
attorneys Gordy Hammack, louMichaels, some people who all
who served, who are fineattorneys now in the civilian
world, who are giving every bitof effort they can to work with
them, supporting General Bishop,and you know, just some of the
(59:39):
great people in STARS.
Any way we can be of help,we're going to do it.
Al Palmer (59:44):
Well, as I'm so grateful to you for jumping into
the fray with us here, and yourwritings are extraordinary and
I'd encourage our viewers to gocheck that out on our website
extraordinary, and I'd encourageour viewers to go check that
out on our website, starsus.
We have a great uh inventorythere of your writings and
others as well uh, and this oneis a particular good one the
(01:00:05):
question of paternity.
That's what we're talking abouttoday, uh, but there's more uh,
and the viewers can watch ourown podcasts.
We got a whole library ofpodcasts there now that they can
go back and see some otherviews of this and how that's
affected, things like theConstitution.
There are partners in this,people like the Calvert Task
(01:00:27):
Group and the MacArthur Society,who have written extensively
about some of this too of thistoo.
So, bruce, thank you so muchfor being with us and talking
about your terrific experiencewith the Air Force and DHS and
keeping our country on the rightcourse here.
As we fight some of the causticelements that may still be
(01:00:48):
around.
Our goal is still to make themilitary work, to make our
people proud of our country andto make sure our warfighters
have what they need, and the lawis a big part of that, as we
both know.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:03):
Yep.
Al Palmer (01:01:03):
Well, I'm honored to be here.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:05):
This is an amazing experience with you.
Thank you for this opportunityto share my thoughts, for
whatever they're worth.
You know God bless you and thefolks who make STARS work.
Al Palmer (01:01:20):
And Bruce, thank you for your family offering you up
to help us out throughout theyears.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:01:26):
Well as I said my wife, both of her
parents were naval officers.
My father was a naval officeraviator.
I don't think there was anychance I wasn't going to be
doing this with you all.
Al Palmer (01:01:40):
Well, that's great.
Thanks so much, and, for ourviewers, thank you for tuning in
to another episode of Stars andStripes.
We'll be back with you nextweek with another great episode.
Until then, adios.
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