December 5, 2025 • 50 mins
Hot takes made it sound groundbreaking: elected officials urged service members to “disobey unlawful orders.” Anyone who’s worn the uniform knows that duty already exists—and the harder question is how statements like that ripple through a force that must act fast, trust its chain of command, and still honor the law of armed conflict.
In this episode of STARRS & Stripes, host Al Palmer, retired Navy Commander, sits down with a former Air Force JAG Bruce Tucker Smith to unpack what the Uniform Code of Military Justice actually requires, when orders are presumed lawful, and where the bright red lines are in combat.
Our conversation moves from the headlines to the hard edge of modern conflict: narco-terror networks, blurred battlefields, and how Geneva Convention criteria apply when adversaries don’t wear uniforms or follow the rules.
We dig into maritime law, whether a disabled smuggling boat is “distressed” or still a legitimate target, and why humanitarian missions and National Guard disaster response are essential to public trust.
Along the way, we tackle recruiting, morale, and the quiet power of the NCO corps—the leaders who turn strategy into action and shape the character of the force.
We don’t call for theatrical prosecutions to settle political scores. Instead, we make a case for sunlight: clear language, better civics, and honest dialogue about authorities, constraints, and intent. If critics suggest ongoing operations are unlawful, name the statute, name the order, and bring the debate to the proper venues. Meanwhile, we’ll keep telling the full story of military service—from kinetic strikes to lifesaving airlift—because accuracy beats outrage.
If this conversation sharpened your thinking, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review to help others find it. Your voice keeps the debate honest.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Al Palmer (00:11):
Well, hello America, and welcome back to STARRS and
Stripes.
This is your host, CommanderAl Palmer, United States Navy
retired.
And I have got a very specialguest today.
And we've got a very specialtopic to talk about, too.
This is going to be a bit aboutsome current news and issues
(00:33):
that relate to militaryperformance, uh, law, and ways
that we do war fighting today.
And to help me with that, I'vegot my good friend and fellow uh
STARRS member uh Bruce TuckerSmith.
Uh Bruce, uh the honorableBruce Smith is an attorney, uh a
(00:56):
JAG officer, career JAG officerin the United States Air Force,
and a law uh admin lawprofessor and chief counsel
while I was in the Air Force tocommanders in the field.
So he knows about the way weinterpret the law in the
military.
He also knows how we do itoutside as well.
(01:16):
And uh, Bruce, it's good, sir,to have you back with us again
because you and I have done thisin the past.
So welcome back to STARRS andStripes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:25):
Hello, Alan, and uh it's an honor to be with
you again and the and the goodfolks who listen to your muchly
needed service of this podcast.
So thank you.
It's an opportunity, and I'mhonored to be here with you.
Al Palmer (01:39):
So the interesting thing about your background and
mine is we share a couple ofthings, do we not?
Uh we were both uh servicebrats.
Uh we grew up in uh you and theNavy, me and the Air Force, uh,
but spent all of our youngyears uh around the military.
And then we both uh learned howto fly at an early age.
(02:00):
Uh I think you told me you soldover when you're 13 years old,
uh mine a little bit later.
But uh we have a love foraviation, for the military, for
service, for the law.
Uh, although I'm not anattorney, I'v e dealt with an
awful lot of uh JAG officersover my career, too.
And uh and it's a veryinteresting mix that we have.
(02:22):
So we'll get into some of thosethings today, just so our
audience knows we're notnewcomers to this business of
the military or to the law, uh,and we know how fight goes
because I'm I'm a veryexperienced combat veteran, and
I've seen an awful lot of theways that we do warfare that
work and don't work.
So, with that, uh, let's justget into it a little bit here.
(02:45):
Uh, you and I have beenwatching very carefully the
unfolding of this business withthe famed six politicians who
have started to take on uhlawfare uh and working with the
military, uh, using it in ways Ithink that our general audience
might appreciate, uh, that is alittle bit unusual, we haven't
(03:08):
seen before.
Uh but what we're going to talkabout is how law really works
in war fighting, and that's whatwe're talking about now, uh,
and also how it works uhadministratively, uh, but how
that works with the generalpublic who may not know as much
about the military as uh thesmall percentage of us who do
(03:31):
serve.
So, Bruce, with that, I'm gonnaopen that up to you.
Can you tell me a little bitabout what the issues are with
this today?
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:39):
Absolutely.
So, to reset um and the graphicyou just had, uh in the last
couple of weeks, we've had uhsix people elected
representatives, all Democrats.
Um, Senator Mark Kelly ofArizona, uh Senator Alyssa
Slotkin of Michigan, and thenfour Congress people, uh Jason
(03:59):
Crow of Colorado, MaggieGoodlander of New Hampshire,
Chris Deluzio, and Chrissy Hulanof Pennsylvania.
Um Ms.
Slotkin apparently was with theCIA, everyone else uh with
uniformed service, and as far asI know, uh Captain Mark Kelly
is the only military retiree inthat group.
(04:22):
Let me state the case for theoutrage and the basis for that
outrage.
Uh, over the past couple ofweeks, uh, that group of six,
and I'll focus mostly on onCaptain Kelly because he is both
a United States Senator and aretired Navy 06, to one degree
(04:48):
or another, each of them made apoint rather publicly of saying
that military members shoulddisobey unlawful orders from
their commander-in-chief ortheir chain of command.
And of course, the unknowingmedia who are both biased
against the currentadministration and woefully
(05:10):
poorly educated on the mattersthat we're discussing here
today, seized on this as if theywere articulating some landmark
proposition of constitutionalor military law.
And they jumped all over it,screaming headlines.
There are several points to bemade about what Captain Kelly,
(05:31):
Senator Kelly, and the uh othersdid.
The first is it's almost sillyfor them to declare publicly
that military members have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders, because everybody who'sever worn the uniform, from the
(05:51):
day you're commissioned, fromthe day you swear the oath of
enlistment, everybody knows youhave an affirmative obligation
to disobey unlawful orders.
It's sacrosanct.
Everybody knows it.
So when the six of them wentpublic with what sounded like
this grandiose announcement oflaw, in fact, it was something
(06:14):
so basic and so fundamental itwas almost laughable, but for
the obvious intent.
And now let me uh argue thecase of outrage against them.
Number one, and let me be veryplain about this.
(06:34):
What the six of them did, andparticularly what Captain
Senator Kelly did, wasreprehensible.
It was beneath contempt forthese reasons.
First and foremost, they wereattempting to incite
insurrection, they are clearlyattempting to foment mutiny in
(06:56):
the armed services.
There's no other, there's noother explanation for what
they're doing.
They clearly don't like whatthe president and the secretary
of war are doing in theCaribbean, but then again, they
don't like the president or thesecretary of war personally or
the fact that they're in office.
And so the statements theymake, they're clearly pointing
(07:18):
at our operations in theCaribbean against the
narco-terrorist state, and theyare implying to military members
that what the president hasordered, what the secretary of
war has ordered, is illegal.
This is reprehensible.
First of all, they are, again,I believe they're clearly trying
(07:40):
to incite mutiny.
They are attempting topoliticize the military, which
we, Alan, as you know, have a250-year history and tradition
and law prohibiting the militaryfrom being engaged in partisan
political activities.
(08:01):
And I refer to uh DOD Directiveuh 1344.10.
And again, everybody in themilitary knows this.
You can't be political, butthese six people, and and again,
and they should all knowbetter, but particularly Senator
(08:22):
Captain Kelly, you areattempting to drag the uniform
military into the middle of apolitical controversy.
You are attempting to inciteinsurrection and mutiny, and it
is reprehensible.
Al Palmer (08:36):
Um, and and and a good Captain Kelly knows, or he
should know, since he uh likesto talk about his 39 combat
missions that he flew in theMiddle East and a couple of
medals, he should know aboveanybody else that you can't just
stop every time somebody givesan order and try to figure out
whether it's legal or not.
(08:58):
And and I can picture himsitting on a catapult uh waiting
to get shot and saying, youknow what, I'm not so sure I got
enough fuel because I'm notsure I you know saw them the
board right.
Let's stop here because this isan illegal order.
No, stop.
You can't do that in real life.
Bruce Tucker Smith (09:17):
Yeah, let's talk about the the legality and
illegality of orders.
As a general proposition,orders from your chain of
command are presumed to belegal.
However, you know, as in thecase of you know uh Ernest
Medina and and William Cali fromthe Vietnam uh tragedy, yeah,
there are acts that the at Miliuh that are absolutely on their
(09:42):
face illegal.
But that's not a subject of umuncertainty because those
prohibited actions are listed inthe Geneva Conventions, which
all of us are schooled on.
So it's not a mystery, butapart from a clear facial
violation of the uh law of war,of the uniform of the uh Geneva
(10:03):
Conventions, military orders aredeemed to be uh presumed to be
legal until a court of competentjurisdiction rules otherwise.
And so you are so right, Alan.
We cannot have an armed forcewhich picks and chooses uh which
orders it will obey and won'tobey based on their own
subjective interpretation.
And this is again to my pointabout the reprehensible conduct
(10:28):
of Captain Senator Kelly andothers.
Uh, they are implying to theuniform services that the orders
to engage with thesenarco-terrorist operatives in
the Caribbean are illegal.
Now, uh that's the clearintent, that is the clear
implication of what they'resaying.
(10:49):
And so I would challenge thegood senator and the other
congresspeople.
If you truly believe theseactions are unlawful, then go to
the will of the Senate, go tothe floor of the House of
Representatives, and exerciseyour franchise under the Article
(11:10):
I of our Constitution, thelegislative function, and
restrain the power of thepresident.
Do so under the rules of thatconstitution, which we all swore
to uphold, protect, and defendwith our lives.
So rather than going on theRachel Maddow show or going on
the view and stirring the pot, Isay to you, Captain Kelly, do
(11:35):
your damn job.
If you feel so strongly aboutit, go introduce appropriate
legislative matters.
Now, I'm reading the newstoday, apparently the Congress
Powers Act.
If you want to have thatconversation, then do so in our
appropriate mechanisms set forthin our government, but not on
(11:56):
the Rachel Maddow show and nottrying to incite insurrection,
fomenting mutiny among theforces.
Al Palmer (12:04):
Yep.
Well, and it it seems thatthey're also not fully informed
themselves.
I noticed that uh Crow, when hewas on talking uh with some of
the Fox people one day, um, hestarted making the comment about
this is important because it'sfor my troops, even though I'm
not still in the service, butit's for my troops, and I have
(12:27):
to get it right for them.
No, they're the ones that aregonna be suffering, are they
not?
If if they start defyingorders, they're on their own.
Now they're gonna probably becourt-martialed, thrown in the
brig, court-martialed, and thenthey're gonna have to explain
why they're not in the serviceanymore, and their families, why
they're not supporting them.
(12:47):
Because the if the presumptionis that they're all legal orders
and you're gonna fight that,you better have a damn good case
for doing it.
You can't just knee-jerk andsay, well, I don't like it and
I'm not gonna do it.
We're not talking about Crow isputting his own troops in
jeopardy, in a sense, by byfomenting that.
(13:10):
And I think that's what they'reall doing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:13):
Yeah, and I doubt sincerely that Lieutenant
Captain Crow would have had thecojones to do that in real life
in a combat situation.
Um he would have been a verypoor commander if he would have
done that.
Um so it's easy for him toarmchair quarterback now that
he's out of the service and he'shas the benefit of being a
congressman.
(13:33):
Um, but I doubt that he wouldhave done that in uniform.
Al Palmer (13:37):
Yeah, and I think they rely on the general public,
as you say, that knows verylittle about how we actually
work in the military.
He's relying on them to promotethat for him, and it gives him
extra credibility, I suppose.
But I think it's starting tocome around, do you think?
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:55):
Well, so here's here's something that has
to be considered.
Uh, I understand that I've Ithink I've seen the Secretary of
War, Secretary Hegseth,apparently soliciting
information.
Uh, and there is someconversation in some circles
about uh bringing Captain Kellyback on active duty as a retiree
and subjecting him to trial bycourt martial.
(14:18):
Um let me be very plain hereagain.
I I find what Captain Kellydid, Senator Kelly did to be
utterly reprehensible.
And I know that what he isdoing is attempting to
politicize this, and I thinkhe's even trying to foment
insurrection and mutiny.
However, um it would be a damnmistake to bring him back on
(14:42):
active duty to try to prosecutehim for a variety of reasons.
First of all, we as retireesare always still subject to the
UCMJ.
Alan, you and I could berecalled and court-martialed
tomorrow.
Not likely that it wouldhappen.
And typically it only happenswhen the military discovers
(15:03):
conduct that you committed whileyou were on duty, then you
retired, they can bring you backif it's still within a statute
of limitations.
Or in the rare case, if a if aretiree like you or I, Alan, or
any any other retiree, you know,committed treason, we in fact
incited insurrection, in fact,incited insurrection, took
(15:26):
material steps toward treasonousconduct, then then we could be
brought back.
But here is why it would beutterly folly to attempt to
bring Captain Kelly back onactive duty.
Because strictly speaking,strictly speaking, the words he
spoke and what the otherCongresspeople spoke were in
(15:49):
fact true.
Military members do have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders.
There's no doubt about it.
So he has not committed acrime, according to Judge Smith.
So his defense is first of all,the words he spoke, the actions
he took, were actually legallycorrect.
It is true.
(16:10):
We as military members have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders.
There's no question that'strue.
Al Palmer (16:16):
Yeah.
Bruce Tucker Smith (16:16):
Second of all, as a member of Congress,
uh, he's protected by Article 1,Section 6 of our Constitution,
the speech and debate clause.
We want our politicians to havethe freedom to say whatever
they want to say.
It is the nature of our system,even if they are being damned
fools in what they say, but weprotect that speech.
So, and then you add to thatjust the general proposition of
(16:40):
the First Amendment.
Um, again, as reprehensible aswhat Captain Kelly and the
others did, but we're talkingabout bringing Captain Kelly
back on active duty.
He spoke truthfully, he'sprotected by the First
Amendment, he's protected by thespeech and debate clause.
It would be utter folly tobring him back on duty to court
martial him.
But there's another reason, itwould be a tragic, tragic
(17:03):
mistake.
I think Alan, you and and othersmart people back in the day
debated the wisdom of impeachingBill Clinton.
And a lot of smart people saidif you do this, there's going to
be hell to pay downstream.
Al Palmer (17:20):
And there was gave them a cause.
Bruce Tucker Smith (17:25):
And and and that was part of the reason for
the various attempts to impeachDonald Trump.
You better be damn carefulabout bringing someone back on
active duty to prosecute thembecause there may be a change of
administration in three years,and then Republicans, Republican
retirees like you and I, wecould be drugged back onto
(17:46):
active duty and prosecuted forour civilian political beliefs.
It is a Pandora's box thatnobody should open.
I would strongly urge thepresident and the secretary of
war to absolutely engage inforbearance here.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Al Palmer (18:06):
So that brings up the interesting question, then.
How do you how do youcounteract the effects of the
inst all of a sudden installinguh you know lack of order and
discipline?
How do you now go about youknow fighting that issue if if
if you don't go after them?
And I agree with you, I thinkthat would be folly, because it
(18:28):
would set them up, they'd be onthe view, they'd be everywhere
talking about how mean and nastythe folks are in the military,
and we don't need that.
But the question comes up (18:37):
how do we fight that?
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:41):
You're doing it right now, Alan.
You know, you you get in thepublic square, you you go to
public forums, and you stateyour case.
And you state your case loudly,clearly, and repeatedly.
That is the beauty of ourcountry.
It's the First Amendment.
You know, if if you're notsmarter than the other guy, then
you deserve to lose.
Al Palmer (19:02):
And so Well, as I say, you're always you always
bring your A game to thedispute.
And that's probably what weneed to do here, right?
Bruce Tucker Smith (19:10):
I I absolutely believe it.
And and so Senator CaptainKelly has run his mouth, the
other six of them, the otherfive of them, then we need to
stand up and be a be better atarguing the other position.
We it it is the nature ofpolitical debate and public
speech.
Uh get out there and tell yourtruth.
(19:33):
And you're doing it.
You're doing it right here.
Al Palmer (19:38):
Well, we try.
But but but there's one aspectof this, though, that that as I
think about it, and it's been inthe press, so it's not any
revelation, but there seems notto be any solid case that
they're making for what is theillegal order that they're all
upset about.
When they're asked about it,they say, Well, we don't know.
(19:58):
I mean, that could happen, youknow.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:01):
Yeah, and that's and and and you make a
great point, Alan.
And it's because of that whyare you people running your
mouths?
You no no one has evensuggested a rational basis why
the attacks on thesenarco-terrorists, which are a
clear and present danger to oursecurity, why those attacks are
(20:21):
unlawful.
And you're so right.
Nobody on the other side hasarticulated why those might be
illegal acts.
In fact, they're not illegalacts.
Al Palmer (20:34):
No, and in fact, what they're what they're actually
doing is standing up for it bynot being against it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:42):
Yeah, and here's a very important uh point
to be remembered.
Hamas, a a known globalterrorist organization, trains
and is supported financially andby other means uh by the
Venezuelan government.
(21:04):
They have an island off thecoast where they train, they are
in our hemisphere terrorismtraining to do harm to the
United States and our allies.
They are engaging in warfareagainst us.
Um, we live in an interestingera, and much has been written
(21:25):
on this topic.
What is terrorism?
It lives in a gray legal areabetween crime and classic set
piece warfare.
Yes, and because of that, westruggle with how to interpret
it.
And it was at the soul of theuh debates about Guantanamo.
(21:49):
Um, who who are these people?
You know, do they exactly fitunder the Geneva Conventions?
And do they are they affordedthe protection of the Geneva
Conventions?
So terrorism is is the 21stcentury version of warfare.
Coming to grips with how wedeal with that is important.
(22:10):
I think, from my own point ofview, that it clearly is
warfare.
They are engaging in warfareagainst us because let's face
it, Hamas don't dogfight, theydon't have F-35s, F-16s, F-15s.
You know, they don't have theM1A1As.
So they wage war in theshadows.
(22:31):
But make no mistake, it's awar, nevertheless.
Al Palmer (22:37):
Well, and when you get so when you get so narrow,
too, that you try to definepeople by the the existing
standards like the GenevaConventions that were written
years ago when we didn't havethis focus on terrorism, you
know, oh, they they're the guysthat are wearing uniforms,
they're wearing patches, they'rewearing red crosses, so that
(22:59):
means they're an actualcombatant or they're exempt from
those things.
But they don't do that, dothey?
They're not wearing theuniforms that we always had worn
in combat before.
And uh, in doing the kind ofwork we're doing from 30,000
feet with a camera on a boatskimming across the ocean, you
can't see anyway.
Bruce Tucker Smith (23:20):
No, it I mean it's true.
I I don't believe that thesenarco-terrorists fit the
definition of a lawfulcombatant, which would entitle
them to protections under theGeneva Convention.
And there's a laundry list ofcriteria that mark you as a
lawful combatant, chief amongwhich is that you yourself obey
and follow the law of war.
(23:41):
And then there are othercriteria that you wear
distinctive uniforms, you flyunder a uh recognizable banner,
you have a chain of command,etc.
And when you are a lawfulcombatant, then you are entitled
to protections under the GenevaConvention.
And the United Stateshistorically has been, as you
know, Al, uh incrediblyattentive to paying attention to
(24:02):
the law of war and notviolating the law of war.
But these folks don't adhere toit, they don't follow it.
Ergo, they're not entitled tothe protections of the law of
war, in my opinion.
Um but they are clearly adanger to this nation, the
drugs, the money that they makefrom drugs, what where that
money goes.
(24:23):
Uh and so the president, asboth the commander-in-chief of
the armed forces and thenation's chief law enforcement
officer, would be derelict inhis duties if he did not take on
this clear threat right on ourshores.
Al Palmer (24:41):
So and the and the other issue in this is the
number of people who have diedas a result of this drug traffic
each year in our country, up to100,000 people a year, is about
twice as many as we lost in thewhole Vietnam War.
unknown (24:58):
Yeah.
Al Palmer (24:59):
I mean, that's that's terrible.
Bruce Tucker Smith (25:01):
And and it's not it's not an accident.
This is an intentionally wagedwar against the people of the
United States.
Um and I, for the life of me,do not understand why the some
factions in the Democrat Partyfeel so obliged to protect and
(25:21):
defend these people who areclearly trying to wage war on
us.
I I've never understood whattheir agenda is, why they feel
uh so uh uh emboldened to try toprotect those who would harm
us.
I don't get it.
Al Palmer (25:35):
I don't I don't either, like you, except the
only thing I can think of isit's just because they want to
be against something.
So you know, it's the you know,the the the enemy of my friend
is my friend, you know.
So they are attacking,attaching themselves to this
issue just to fight theadministration and make
political points is prettyclear.
(25:57):
Because there's no othersensible argument about that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:00):
I think you're uh as always, Alan, you
you've nailed it.
That's what what you in the inthe in the flying business would
call a shack.
Um and and that's fine, youknow.
Uh in America, you know,politics is a hardball sport.
I get it.
But when you start to involvethe military, when you try to
intentionally involve themilitary in a political, a
(26:22):
domestic political dispute, man,you have crossed a line that
should never have been crossed.
That is just not what we do inthe United States.
Al Palmer (26:32):
And there's a whole host of unintended consequences,
which would probably springfrom that.
I mean, you know, back in backin Vietnam, we had a problem
with race relations and it gotout of control, and all of a
sudden you had uh whole crews onaircraft carriers going on, you
know, a revolt uh over somesmall issues.
(26:54):
Once you start that, there's nopredicting where it's going to
go, in my humble opinion.
Bruce Tucker Smith (27:00):
It's true, and and I I suspect you you have
done, well, you and STARS havedone some yeoman service
highlighting uh the pastadministration and its social
policies intentionally inflictedon the military, which goes to
your exact point.
It it had the effect ofundermining military discipline,
(27:22):
effectiveness, readiness.
Um and it's it's far worse thaneven the fools on the view
would care to understand.
Um but and that and this isjust another example.
But but I I mean to tell you,when when Mark Kelly, in
essence, is implying to theuniformed service personnel that
(27:45):
the orders given to them by thecommander-in-chiefs of the
Secretary of War are unlawful.
There's only one there's onlyone possible reason he's doing
that, and that's to incitemutiny.
Al Palmer (27:58):
And it's well, and I'm also struck by the fact that
that that they got that farlast week or so.
Uh and and they thought I thinkthey were turning a corner on
this.
Turned out they weren't.
So today the story is, well,this one boat, the last one that
they struck, it was a secondstrike.
Uh and that was bad.
(28:19):
You shouldn't do that to hurtthose people because they're
just shipwrecked people.
Well, first of all, what theywhat they did to that boat was
not a shipwreck.
It was an intentional strike toput them out of business.
If they ran across a sandbar orran aground someplace or had a
fire on board and had to abandonship, that's another matter.
And that's pretty obvious topeople.
(28:40):
But but now they've they'vetaken us to a new direction.
Here they are hanging on to theboat, and somehow that still
makes them a combatant if theyhaven't abandoned their ship.
And if they're trying to talkon the radio to communicate with
other people, as has beenrumored, uh that that's an
intentional way of continuingthe fight.
(29:00):
And in that case, they wouldhave been right to continue
whatever effort they needed todo to put them out of business.
Bruce Tucker Smith (29:07):
Well, again, you've you've nailed it,
Commander.
Um, there is, as you know, anentire, and I mean
centuries-old, body of law inmaritime law that says you come
to the aid of a mariner indistress.
Absolutely.
And there's not a nation in theworld that doesn't adhere to
that law.
But this is war.
They're not shipwrecked.
(29:28):
These are enemy combatants whoare now.
Maybe if you had the capabilityto go grab one of them for
intel purposes, but they'restill targets.
They are still targets, andthey may not have the instant
ability to wage war or returnfire, but they are still
combatants, and as such, theyare legitimate targets.
(29:52):
Period.
Al Palmer (29:54):
What I would tell the good Senator Kelly is so you
want to make up bad guys on thisby going after people like
that.
But haven't we been the onesthat are the first to show up
when there's a tsunami in thePacific or there's a volcano
that's uh you know gone off oranother natural disaster
(30:15):
someplace?
We, particularly the UnitedStates Navy and the Marines and
Coast Guard, are the first onesto show up.
We're there to help people.
But you know what?
There are orders that go withthat too.
There are orders that aredeveloped probably from the
president on down through SECDEFto send troops out of their way
to take care of those things.
(30:36):
Now, are those illegal orders?
Bruce Tucker Smith (30:40):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Even though, strictly speaking,humanitarian work is not the
mission of the military.
Uh absolutely, the sea serviceshave always, always been there.
The Air Force with heavyairlift capability of getting
people, material, suppliesaround the globe.
(31:02):
And our our track record onthis is unparalleled amongst the
nations of the world.
The United States has alwaysbeen incredibly generous with
its resources to help otherhuman beings.
And that's you know, it's ourpride and it's our honor to do
it.
But you make a great point.
Is that strictly speaking themission of the armed forces?
(31:23):
To kill people and breakthings?
No.
Does that so we're going alittle off script when we do
humanitarian stuff?
Yeah, so if someone wanted tocomplain about it.
Al Palmer (31:35):
But it is a story, is it not, that kind of balances
some of this out?
Uh I remember this back duringuh you know the Gulf War.
Uh and I was out in Hawaii andI was working with a PACAF
commander out there building anaviation museum at Pearl Harbor.
And one day he had a meetingand he was trying to defend what
(31:55):
the criticism was of the AirForce and being you know part of
that effort uh in the Mideast.
And they and their method waswe don't want to say much
because we don't want to betargets, so we're not going to
say anything at all.
And I remember putting my handup and saying, General, look, if
you don't say something todefend yourself, who's going to
(32:15):
do that?
Particularly in thisenvironment that we have today.
And I do think that it wouldbehoove uh Heg Seth and
everybody else to start talkingin more positive terms about
things like we do.
I mean, no one no one says yougot to go out there and do
disaster relief and get peopleresettled and drop food to them
(32:36):
and spend your time.
No one says we have to do that.
We do it because it's the rightthing to do.
And that's I think that's anantidote a bit for what this
bunch is trying to do.
Because you're right, they'rejust trying to foment unrest and
uh disobedience in theiranxious, uh, which ain't a good
thing.
But we do good things, andmaybe it's time for us to talk
(32:59):
more about that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:00):
And that goes back to your point you made
it a little earlier about sowhat do we, who are of this
mindset, what do we do tocounteract what the Mark Kellys
and the Senator Slotkins?
The answer is stand up and beheard.
Al Palmer (33:14):
Yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:14):
Yeah.
Raise your voice in the publicsquare and be heard and remind
the world what it is that we dowhen we're not we're not
dropping bombs.
And that's most of the time.
The military, most of the time,we're not fighting.
And a lot of times we're simplyhelping people.
Uh, and then you let's just addto that our our National Guard
(33:34):
brothers and sisters.
The National Guard routinelycalled upon by the state
governors to respond to floods,natural disasters, earthquakes,
tornadoes, hurricanes, and onand on and on.
These are people in uniform whoare giving uh of time and
treasure and and were spendingmoney simply to help people.
(33:57):
So this, and I again, I and youmake again the point, I never
understand why people in ourcompany in our country,
particularly people who haveserved and and the political
left in recent years, feel soobliged to run down the military
and run down this country.
Uh exactly.
(34:18):
I I I it it befuddles me.
And the only answer is you'redoing it for cheap political
points to self-endself-grandize.
And and I say, when you dothat, then you, sir, you ma'am,
are a disgrace to the uniformthat you used to wear.
Al Palmer (34:35):
Well, of course, I my my time was in Vietnam, and
when we came back home, therewere not a lot of people who
were welcoming us coming off anairplane.
And and over and over theyears, uh, of course, that's
changed a bit, which is reallygood.
And people do appreciate whatthe military does.
And often people come out to meif they recognize me if I'm
(34:55):
wearing a t-shirt or hat orsomething, and they'll say,
Well, sir, thanks, thanks verymuch.
We really appreciate yourservice.
Thank you for your service.
And I always go back to themand I say, Well, how'd that work
out for you?
And they go, What?
Well, you're you're nice andsafe.
You're in a nice grocery storewith your kids, they all look
like they're pretty healthy.
(35:16):
Hasn't that worked out well foryou, too?
Oh yeah.
And that's the kind of thing Ithink we might want to start
thinking about.
But uh, this is the purpose, isuh Bruce, as you as a wonderful
member of our board of advisorsand one of our staunch uh legal
minds.
We know how that works with theoutside world.
(35:36):
You just have to convince them,as we're talking about now,
about the things that can workout better for you rather than
just gripe about things thataren't working.
Bruce Tucker Smith (35:46):
Well, and I'll tell you, so there's some
very encouraging signs, and andum I'm very proud of this fact.
I have a grandson who just twoweeks ago graduated from Air
Force Basic Training atLackland, and uh he's now on his
way to his specialty school.
Um, I can report to you thatthe esprit amongst the kids in
(36:06):
his training class going throughLackland, he said these kids
are just fire eaters.
They're just rare in the go.
They're proud of that uniform,their families are proud of that
uniform.
And you know, we we all knowthat during the Biden
administration, uh, recruitingtook a serious nosedive, serious
nosedive.
And and the reason for that, weknow this, you and I are
(36:31):
examples of this.
Military service tends to runin families.
And during the Bidenadministration, you had parents
and grandparents saying to thekids, yeah, I don't think I'd
put on the uniform right now.
I don't think it's a very goodtime to be serving the country.
And I'm uh no politicalcommercial here, but almost
immediately upon Trump'selection, Heg Seth being in
(36:53):
office, recruiting has gonethrough the roof.
They're turning kids away.
People want to serve becausetheir families are saying, now's
the time to go, we've gotleadership now.
So I was I was very encouraged.
And so the downstream effect ofthat is the kids like my
grandson, 19 years old, uh, oneday he's gonna come out of the
(37:15):
service and he's gonna go outinto society, he and the other
people with him, and and he'llhave a story to tell.
Like we do what we do.
And so I put congrats uh in theyoung people that are that are
signing up now because they arethey're our best hope going
forward.
Um they'll they'll tell thestory, but we need to keep
(37:35):
telling the story.
Al Palmer (37:37):
Well, I was uh I was given a speech at a military
ball up in uh Minnesota severalmonths ago, and this lieutenant
colonel came up to me and hewanted to kind of call me in the
in the corner here and talk tome.
And he uh and uh and I said, sowhat's bothering you?
He says, Well, my son is at theAir Force Academy.
He's uh he's in his third year,uh, and he's now saying to me,
(38:02):
I don't want to stick around,Dad.
The the stuff I see isdiscouraging, and I don't think
I'll be happy because all thesethings are happening.
And I said, Look, Colonel, uh,you need to sit him down and
talk to him, and and you cantell him from somebody else
outside that that has been thereand done it, he'll be happy
with that journey.
(38:22):
You know, no one knows wherethey're gonna go.
It's it is an adventure.
Uh you you don't know whatyou're gonna do, where you're
gonna show up.
You write a blank check toUncle Sam, and then you're kind
of on your own.
But I said that's the joy init, is is discovering what you
can do and how people can work.
So I said, you know, tell themto stick with it.
(38:42):
He wrote me back a few weeksago and said, yeah, he decided
to stick it out, uh, and he'llbe uh and he graduated, uh,
which is great.
But without that support andand something to point to,
people are ready to leap intothe the current jargon or
whatever happens to be thepopular point of view.
(39:04):
Unfortunately, sometimes that'sa negative point of view,
right?
So I'm so glad to see your uhyour grandson come out of this.
And uh thanks for sharing himwith the country.
Bruce Tucker Smith (39:16):
Well, he's he's a great kid, and and and
there's but there's a milliongreat kids just like him, and
that's that's the thing that youget.
Yeah, the other thing to beremembered is this we all tend
to um look at our militarycareers with a little bit of
rose-colored glasses.
Man, everything was just great.
Well, no, it wasn't.
There were a lot of days whenit was horrible.
I mean, it was, and and you youfar better than I uh from your
(39:40):
service in Vietnam.
There were a lot of days it wasa Charlie Foxtrot, but on
balance, service above self,dedication to the mission, the
people that you served with,even in the worst of
circumstances, that's what makesthat's what makes our country
and our military great.
Um, you know.
Al Palmer (40:02):
Well, I see some of these these uh uh media folks
and celebrities and politiciansscurrying around trying to dress
themselves up to makethemselves look like they've
done something, and it's kind ofpathetic in a way.
Uh but but you and I knowbecause we've run across them
some true true heroes andremarkable people who've done
(40:26):
exceptional things.
And some of them you you wouldnever have thought about that.
One that comes to mind is ChuckYeager.
You know, Chuck Yeager camefrom West Virginia and barely
got out of grade school, wentinto the Air Force as an
enlisted guy, became a pilot,and and was had an amazing
career.
(40:46):
But Chuck Yeager would sayhimself, he said, if I hadn't
had that opportunity, I wouldhave gone nowhere.
Bruce Tucker Smith (40:55):
You know, the other night my wife and I
were watching Jeopardy, andthere was a question that came
on that had to do with militaryranks, and all three of the
contestants did not know, theythought a sergeant outranked a
major.
Now, in reality, we shouldought to the majors ought to
listen to the sergeant some alot of times, but the the the
(41:16):
percentage of the populationwho've never served don't know a
corporal from you know thechief of staff.
They don't know.
And it's and it's but this isthe price tag we have for an
all-volunteer military.
Um it's too bad that we don'thave a draft.
I think universal service wouldbenefit the entire nation and
(41:37):
would give everybody a bettersense of how the military works.
Even if you peel potatoes inLouisiana and that's all you
ever did, uh it would it wouldbe beneficial to the nation.
And frankly, while we do have anumber of people in Congress,
and we're talking about themhere today, who have served, um,
we don't have enough becauseit's Congress that has the
(42:00):
authority to make war.
And it would certainly be abenefit to our democracy and our
republic if we had moreinformed people making those
decisions had they simplyserved.
So um that's that's thedownstream price tag of an
all-volunteer force, but thereyou have it.
Al Palmer (42:20):
But one of the things that's happened is within the
within the public, the outsideworld, uh academics and
performance in schools has goneright down the tubes.
Uh there the kids are notlearning, they're not digesting
things, and then they go outinto the workplace and they
can't get a job, or when theydo, they can't perform very
(42:42):
well.
The military has always found away to solve that.
You know, we train people well,and even if they don't know a
whole lot, like Chuck Yeager,when he when he first came into
the Air Force as a mechanic,became an amazing fighter pilot,
broke the sound barrier, andand yet he didn't have the
formal education that most ofour kids get going through the
(43:05):
eighth grade.
But he was able to do it.
We in the military can handlethat.
We can train people to dothings, and they'll do amazing
things.
So you're right, it would begood if we had some sort of uh
not compulsory service, butservice where we could we could
say, we'll take you for a fewyears, we'll train you, spend
(43:27):
some time with us, and if youwant to spend a career, that's
great, we'll even do more foryou.
But but I think there's a valuethere to the general public
that a lot of people don't seewith the military.
Bruce Tucker Smith (43:38):
And I'll tell you something that we all
should be very proud of is ourNCO Corps in our service
branches.
Uh our NCOs have and shouldhave always run the military.
You know, officers, we get weget the privilege of leadership,
but but the men and women whoare wearing the stripes, the
NCOs, our NCO corps, they are,as a group, I think, the most
(44:01):
amazing human beings on theplanet.
And boy, when when those folkscome out of military service, go
in at age 18, do 20 years, theycome out age 30, 8, 40, they're
still very young people.
You talk about you talk about agroup of people you want
working in your industries, arethese incredible former NCOs
who've who've had one foot onthe loading dock and one foot in
(44:24):
the boardroom.
Uh, and it's something weshould be extraordinarily proud
of because no other military inthe world uh cultivates and puts
as much strength and and andfaith as we do in our NCOs.
And I, you know, talk about ajust an incredible group of
Americans.
So, you know, they they're anamazing resource, and um, and I
(44:47):
and I suspect so many of them goon and are tremendously
successful in in commercialbusiness life after they get out
of the service.
Al Palmer (44:55):
To our audience, uh, if you want to know how that
works, uh, there was a reallygood mini-series done on
aircraft carriers calledCarrier.
And it it and it talked aboutlife on board, and it focused a
lot on uh the the senior uh uhlead chief petty officer on the
ship, uh, who who had everybodyin line.
(45:17):
He knew how to handle people,he knew what to do to get them
to be uh energized and work.
I also knew he also knew how toget them straightened out when
they didn't do something right.
That is an amazing thing to do.
But that's a really good way oflooking at it.
That was a good series thatdemonstrated that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (45:34):
It was, and and and let's let's face it, um,
you know, I'm certain goodchunks of my career were due in
large part to the outstandingNCOs I worked with when I was a
young captain, young lieutenantand captain.
Um, and and so that again, thatrelationship in the service
when you're a young officer, ifyou have enough good sense and
(45:55):
judgment and can put your ego incheck to listen to what the
NCOs are telling you, man, theyare a storehouse of wisdom if
you just pay attention.
And uh again, you take you takethat out of service and go into
corporate business America.
Wow, you can't meet thosepeople, can't beat them.
Al Palmer (46:14):
Well, Bruce, listen, this has been such a really
interesting discussion becausewe've gone quite a ways away
from just talking about law, aswe wanted to start with here.
But I wanted to thank you somuch for being with us today to
delve into this.
I think there's more to comefrom this, uh, but for anybody
that doesn't know what STARSdoes, we're the people who
(46:35):
aren't partisan.
You know, we don't have a dogin a fight.
Uh, you know, as somebody oncesaid, if you bark at every if
you stop and try to correctevery dog on your journey down
the road, they'll never get towhere you go for fighting
barking.
So we we try to do things in asmart way at STARS, and we've
been successful.
We've we've made changes, we'vedone things that benefit the
(46:58):
troops, their families, and allthat.
And uh I want to thank you forbeing a big part of that uh with
STARS, but not just SARS, youknow, Bruce, you you've had an
amazing career of protecting thetroops and the law, and uh you
know, we all do this in our ownsmall way, I guess, but uh I
want to just thank you again foryour service and what you're
(47:20):
doing.
Maybe I'll be able to do that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (47:24):
Well, for me, it's uh it it's an honor,
and and again, our veryconversation here answers your
opening question.
What do we do to push backagainst those who speak in
opposition to us?
You're doing it.
We're we're we're having thisconversation in public.
(47:46):
We're encouraging others tohave that conversation.
Maybe our words will generateother smarter people to think
different thoughts and go outand speak their truth.
So this is how you do it.
It's freedom of speech, it'sthe first amendment, it's the
constitution, it's that thingyou and I swore to protect with
our very lives.
(48:07):
And so we're doing right hereexactly what the Founding
Fathers wanted us to do.
Exactly.
Al Palmer (48:15):
And as you you uh mentioned to me the other day
when we were talking about someof this, you know, we signed up,
we committed ourselves to a lotof risk, uh, and a lot of not
always good times.
But as you said, we signed up,raised our hands, and we did it
for a piece of paper.
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:35):
Yeah, we didn't we didn't swear to
uphold, protect, defend thenation, the flag, mom, the girl
next door, apple pie, baseball,none of that.
We swore to defend with ourlives an idea, you know, a
document, a piece of paper, thelaw stuff.
Well, you know, and the and theand again, the first amendment,
(48:59):
the most important one, thefreedom of speech part.
So, Captain Kelly, you want tostand in the public square and
be an idiot?
Okay, we're gonna stand up andoppose you, and we're gonna do
it loudly.
That's how America works.
Al Palmer (49:13):
And I and I'm happy to invite him or any of the crew
of six to come on our podcastand we can talk about it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (49:22):
Yeah, I'd like to see that.
Al Palmer (49:25):
I'm sure a lot of people might.
Well, Bruce, listen, thanksagain for for uh reprieves of
our earlier uh thing together,and and you've done a remarkable
job.
To our audience, uh, we hopeyou'll like this.
If you do, you can always dropus a line on stars.
Go to our stars website,stars.us, and you can probably
(49:47):
do that.
Uh but in the meantime, we'llbe back next week with another
episode of Stars, and this timewe'll be talking a little bit
about ideologies that don'twork.
So stay tuned for that.
And with that, good night.
Well, hello America, and welcome back to STARRS and
Stripes.
This is your host, CommanderAl Palmer, United States Navy
retired.
And I have got a very specialguest today.
And we've got a very specialtopic to talk about, too.
This is going to be a bit aboutsome current news and issues
(00:33):
that relate to militaryperformance, uh, law, and ways
that we do war fighting today.
And to help me with that, I'vegot my good friend and fellow uh
STARRS member uh Bruce TuckerSmith.
Uh Bruce, uh the honorableBruce Smith is an attorney, uh a
(00:56):
JAG officer, career JAG officerin the United States Air Force,
and a law uh admin lawprofessor and chief counsel
while I was in the Air Force tocommanders in the field.
So he knows about the way weinterpret the law in the
military.
He also knows how we do itoutside as well.
(01:16):
And uh, Bruce, it's good, sir,to have you back with us again
because you and I have done thisin the past.
So welcome back to STARRS andStripes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (01:25):
Hello, Alan, and uh it's an honor to be with
you again and the and the goodfolks who listen to your muchly
needed service of this podcast.
So thank you.
It's an opportunity, and I'mhonored to be here with you.
Al Palmer (01:39):
So the interesting thing about your background and
mine is we share a couple ofthings, do we not?
Uh we were both uh servicebrats.
Uh we grew up in uh you and theNavy, me and the Air Force, uh,
but spent all of our youngyears uh around the military.
And then we both uh learned howto fly at an early age.
(02:00):
Uh I think you told me you soldover when you're 13 years old,
uh mine a little bit later.
But uh we have a love foraviation, for the military, for
service, for the law.
Uh, although I'm not anattorney, I'v e dealt with an
awful lot of uh JAG officersover my career, too.
And uh and it's a veryinteresting mix that we have.
(02:22):
So we'll get into some of thosethings today, just so our
audience knows we're notnewcomers to this business of
the military or to the law, uh,and we know how fight goes
because I'm I'm a veryexperienced combat veteran, and
I've seen an awful lot of theways that we do warfare that
work and don't work.
So, with that, uh, let's justget into it a little bit here.
(02:45):
Uh, you and I have beenwatching very carefully the
unfolding of this business withthe famed six politicians who
have started to take on uhlawfare uh and working with the
military, uh, using it in ways Ithink that our general audience
might appreciate, uh, that is alittle bit unusual, we haven't
(03:08):
seen before.
Uh but what we're going to talkabout is how law really works
in war fighting, and that's whatwe're talking about now, uh,
and also how it works uhadministratively, uh, but how
that works with the generalpublic who may not know as much
about the military as uh thesmall percentage of us who do
(03:31):
serve.
So, Bruce, with that, I'm gonnaopen that up to you.
Can you tell me a little bitabout what the issues are with
this today?
Bruce Tucker Smith (03:39):
Absolutely.
So, to reset um and the graphicyou just had, uh in the last
couple of weeks, we've had uhsix people elected
representatives, all Democrats.
Um, Senator Mark Kelly ofArizona, uh Senator Alyssa
Slotkin of Michigan, and thenfour Congress people, uh Jason
(03:59):
Crow of Colorado, MaggieGoodlander of New Hampshire,
Chris Deluzio, and Chrissy Hulanof Pennsylvania.
Um Ms.
Slotkin apparently was with theCIA, everyone else uh with
uniformed service, and as far asI know, uh Captain Mark Kelly
is the only military retiree inthat group.
(04:22):
Let me state the case for theoutrage and the basis for that
outrage.
Uh, over the past couple ofweeks, uh, that group of six,
and I'll focus mostly on onCaptain Kelly because he is both
a United States Senator and aretired Navy 06, to one degree
(04:48):
or another, each of them made apoint rather publicly of saying
that military members shoulddisobey unlawful orders from
their commander-in-chief ortheir chain of command.
And of course, the unknowingmedia who are both biased
against the currentadministration and woefully
(05:10):
poorly educated on the mattersthat we're discussing here
today, seized on this as if theywere articulating some landmark
proposition of constitutionalor military law.
And they jumped all over it,screaming headlines.
There are several points to bemade about what Captain Kelly,
(05:31):
Senator Kelly, and the uh othersdid.
The first is it's almost sillyfor them to declare publicly
that military members have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders, because everybody who'sever worn the uniform, from the
(05:51):
day you're commissioned, fromthe day you swear the oath of
enlistment, everybody knows youhave an affirmative obligation
to disobey unlawful orders.
It's sacrosanct.
Everybody knows it.
So when the six of them wentpublic with what sounded like
this grandiose announcement oflaw, in fact, it was something
(06:14):
so basic and so fundamental itwas almost laughable, but for
the obvious intent.
And now let me uh argue thecase of outrage against them.
Number one, and let me be veryplain about this.
(06:34):
What the six of them did, andparticularly what Captain
Senator Kelly did, wasreprehensible.
It was beneath contempt forthese reasons.
First and foremost, they wereattempting to incite
insurrection, they are clearlyattempting to foment mutiny in
(06:56):
the armed services.
There's no other, there's noother explanation for what
they're doing.
They clearly don't like whatthe president and the secretary
of war are doing in theCaribbean, but then again, they
don't like the president or thesecretary of war personally or
the fact that they're in office.
And so the statements theymake, they're clearly pointing
(07:18):
at our operations in theCaribbean against the
narco-terrorist state, and theyare implying to military members
that what the president hasordered, what the secretary of
war has ordered, is illegal.
This is reprehensible.
First of all, they are, again,I believe they're clearly trying
(07:40):
to incite mutiny.
They are attempting topoliticize the military, which
we, Alan, as you know, have a250-year history and tradition
and law prohibiting the militaryfrom being engaged in partisan
political activities.
(08:01):
And I refer to uh DOD Directiveuh 1344.10.
And again, everybody in themilitary knows this.
You can't be political, butthese six people, and and again,
and they should all knowbetter, but particularly Senator
(08:22):
Captain Kelly, you areattempting to drag the uniform
military into the middle of apolitical controversy.
You are attempting to inciteinsurrection and mutiny, and it
is reprehensible.
Al Palmer (08:36):
Um, and and and a good Captain Kelly knows, or he
should know, since he uh likesto talk about his 39 combat
missions that he flew in theMiddle East and a couple of
medals, he should know aboveanybody else that you can't just
stop every time somebody givesan order and try to figure out
whether it's legal or not.
(08:58):
And and I can picture himsitting on a catapult uh waiting
to get shot and saying, youknow what, I'm not so sure I got
enough fuel because I'm notsure I you know saw them the
board right.
Let's stop here because this isan illegal order.
No, stop.
You can't do that in real life.
Bruce Tucker Smith (09:17):
Yeah, let's talk about the the legality and
illegality of orders.
As a general proposition,orders from your chain of
command are presumed to belegal.
However, you know, as in thecase of you know uh Ernest
Medina and and William Cali fromthe Vietnam uh tragedy, yeah,
there are acts that the at Miliuh that are absolutely on their
(09:42):
face illegal.
But that's not a subject of umuncertainty because those
prohibited actions are listed inthe Geneva Conventions, which
all of us are schooled on.
So it's not a mystery, butapart from a clear facial
violation of the uh law of war,of the uniform of the uh Geneva
(10:03):
Conventions, military orders aredeemed to be uh presumed to be
legal until a court of competentjurisdiction rules otherwise.
And so you are so right, Alan.
We cannot have an armed forcewhich picks and chooses uh which
orders it will obey and won'tobey based on their own
subjective interpretation.
And this is again to my pointabout the reprehensible conduct
(10:28):
of Captain Senator Kelly andothers.
Uh, they are implying to theuniform services that the orders
to engage with thesenarco-terrorist operatives in
the Caribbean are illegal.
Now, uh that's the clearintent, that is the clear
implication of what they'resaying.
(10:49):
And so I would challenge thegood senator and the other
congresspeople.
If you truly believe theseactions are unlawful, then go to
the will of the Senate, go tothe floor of the House of
Representatives, and exerciseyour franchise under the Article
(11:10):
I of our Constitution, thelegislative function, and
restrain the power of thepresident.
Do so under the rules of thatconstitution, which we all swore
to uphold, protect, and defendwith our lives.
So rather than going on theRachel Maddow show or going on
the view and stirring the pot, Isay to you, Captain Kelly, do
(11:35):
your damn job.
If you feel so strongly aboutit, go introduce appropriate
legislative matters.
Now, I'm reading the newstoday, apparently the Congress
Powers Act.
If you want to have thatconversation, then do so in our
appropriate mechanisms set forthin our government, but not on
(11:56):
the Rachel Maddow show and nottrying to incite insurrection,
fomenting mutiny among theforces.
Al Palmer (12:04):
Yep.
Well, and it it seems thatthey're also not fully informed
themselves.
I noticed that uh Crow, when hewas on talking uh with some of
the Fox people one day, um, hestarted making the comment about
this is important because it'sfor my troops, even though I'm
not still in the service, butit's for my troops, and I have
(12:27):
to get it right for them.
No, they're the ones that aregonna be suffering, are they
not?
If if they start defyingorders, they're on their own.
Now they're gonna probably becourt-martialed, thrown in the
brig, court-martialed, and thenthey're gonna have to explain
why they're not in the serviceanymore, and their families, why
they're not supporting them.
(12:47):
Because the if the presumptionis that they're all legal orders
and you're gonna fight that,you better have a damn good case
for doing it.
You can't just knee-jerk andsay, well, I don't like it and
I'm not gonna do it.
We're not talking about Crow isputting his own troops in
jeopardy, in a sense, by byfomenting that.
(13:10):
And I think that's what they'reall doing.
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:13):
Yeah, and I doubt sincerely that Lieutenant
Captain Crow would have had thecojones to do that in real life
in a combat situation.
Um he would have been a verypoor commander if he would have
done that.
Um so it's easy for him toarmchair quarterback now that
he's out of the service and he'shas the benefit of being a
congressman.
(13:33):
Um, but I doubt that he wouldhave done that in uniform.
Al Palmer (13:37):
Yeah, and I think they rely on the general public,
as you say, that knows verylittle about how we actually
work in the military.
He's relying on them to promotethat for him, and it gives him
extra credibility, I suppose.
But I think it's starting tocome around, do you think?
Bruce Tucker Smith (13:55):
Well, so here's here's something that has
to be considered.
Uh, I understand that I've Ithink I've seen the Secretary of
War, Secretary Hegseth,apparently soliciting
information.
Uh, and there is someconversation in some circles
about uh bringing Captain Kellyback on active duty as a retiree
and subjecting him to trial bycourt martial.
(14:18):
Um let me be very plain hereagain.
I I find what Captain Kellydid, Senator Kelly did to be
utterly reprehensible.
And I know that what he isdoing is attempting to
politicize this, and I thinkhe's even trying to foment
insurrection and mutiny.
However, um it would be a damnmistake to bring him back on
(14:42):
active duty to try to prosecutehim for a variety of reasons.
First of all, we as retireesare always still subject to the
UCMJ.
Alan, you and I could berecalled and court-martialed
tomorrow.
Not likely that it wouldhappen.
And typically it only happenswhen the military discovers
(15:03):
conduct that you committed whileyou were on duty, then you
retired, they can bring you backif it's still within a statute
of limitations.
Or in the rare case, if a if aretiree like you or I, Alan, or
any any other retiree, you know,committed treason, we in fact
incited insurrection, in fact,incited insurrection, took
(15:26):
material steps toward treasonousconduct, then then we could be
brought back.
But here is why it would beutterly folly to attempt to
bring Captain Kelly back onactive duty.
Because strictly speaking,strictly speaking, the words he
spoke and what the otherCongresspeople spoke were in
(15:49):
fact true.
Military members do have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders.
There's no doubt about it.
So he has not committed acrime, according to Judge Smith.
So his defense is first of all,the words he spoke, the actions
he took, were actually legallycorrect.
It is true.
(16:10):
We as military members have anobligation to disobey unlawful
orders.
There's no question that'strue.
Al Palmer (16:16):
Yeah.
Bruce Tucker Smith (16:16):
Second of all, as a member of Congress,
uh, he's protected by Article 1,Section 6 of our Constitution,
the speech and debate clause.
We want our politicians to havethe freedom to say whatever
they want to say.
It is the nature of our system,even if they are being damned
fools in what they say, but weprotect that speech.
So, and then you add to thatjust the general proposition of
(16:40):
the First Amendment.
Um, again, as reprehensible aswhat Captain Kelly and the
others did, but we're talkingabout bringing Captain Kelly
back on active duty.
He spoke truthfully, he'sprotected by the First
Amendment, he's protected by thespeech and debate clause.
It would be utter folly tobring him back on duty to court
martial him.
But there's another reason, itwould be a tragic, tragic
(17:03):
mistake.
I think Alan, you and and othersmart people back in the day
debated the wisdom of impeachingBill Clinton.
And a lot of smart people saidif you do this, there's going to
be hell to pay downstream.
Al Palmer (17:20):
And there was gave them a cause.
Bruce Tucker Smith (17:25):
And and and that was part of the reason for
the various attempts to impeachDonald Trump.
You better be damn carefulabout bringing someone back on
active duty to prosecute thembecause there may be a change of
administration in three years,and then Republicans, Republican
retirees like you and I, wecould be drugged back onto
(17:46):
active duty and prosecuted forour civilian political beliefs.
It is a Pandora's box thatnobody should open.
I would strongly urge thepresident and the secretary of
war to absolutely engage inforbearance here.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Al Palmer (18:06):
So that brings up the interesting question, then.
How do you how do youcounteract the effects of the
inst all of a sudden installinguh you know lack of order and
discipline?
How do you now go about youknow fighting that issue if if
if you don't go after them?
And I agree with you, I thinkthat would be folly, because it
(18:28):
would set them up, they'd be onthe view, they'd be everywhere
talking about how mean and nastythe folks are in the military,
and we don't need that.
But the question comes up (18:37):
how do we fight that?
Bruce Tucker Smith (18:41):
You're doing it right now, Alan.
You know, you you get in thepublic square, you you go to
public forums, and you stateyour case.
And you state your case loudly,clearly, and repeatedly.
That is the beauty of ourcountry.
It's the First Amendment.
You know, if if you're notsmarter than the other guy, then
you deserve to lose.
Al Palmer (19:02):
And so Well, as I say, you're always you always
bring your A game to thedispute.
And that's probably what weneed to do here, right?
Bruce Tucker Smith (19:10):
I I absolutely believe it.
And and so Senator CaptainKelly has run his mouth, the
other six of them, the otherfive of them, then we need to
stand up and be a be better atarguing the other position.
We it it is the nature ofpolitical debate and public
speech.
Uh get out there and tell yourtruth.
(19:33):
And you're doing it.
You're doing it right here.
Al Palmer (19:38):
Well, we try.
But but but there's one aspectof this, though, that that as I
think about it, and it's been inthe press, so it's not any
revelation, but there seems notto be any solid case that
they're making for what is theillegal order that they're all
upset about.
When they're asked about it,they say, Well, we don't know.
(19:58):
I mean, that could happen, youknow.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:01):
Yeah, and that's and and and you make a
great point, Alan.
And it's because of that whyare you people running your
mouths?
You no no one has evensuggested a rational basis why
the attacks on thesenarco-terrorists, which are a
clear and present danger to oursecurity, why those attacks are
(20:21):
unlawful.
And you're so right.
Nobody on the other side hasarticulated why those might be
illegal acts.
In fact, they're not illegalacts.
Al Palmer (20:34):
No, and in fact, what they're what they're actually
doing is standing up for it bynot being against it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (20:42):
Yeah, and here's a very important uh point
to be remembered.
Hamas, a a known globalterrorist organization, trains
and is supported financially andby other means uh by the
Venezuelan government.
(21:04):
They have an island off thecoast where they train, they are
in our hemisphere terrorismtraining to do harm to the
United States and our allies.
They are engaging in warfareagainst us.
Um, we live in an interestingera, and much has been written
(21:25):
on this topic.
What is terrorism?
It lives in a gray legal areabetween crime and classic set
piece warfare.
Yes, and because of that, westruggle with how to interpret
it.
And it was at the soul of theuh debates about Guantanamo.
(21:49):
Um, who who are these people?
You know, do they exactly fitunder the Geneva Conventions?
And do they are they affordedthe protection of the Geneva
Conventions?
So terrorism is is the 21stcentury version of warfare.
Coming to grips with how wedeal with that is important.
(22:10):
I think, from my own point ofview, that it clearly is
warfare.
They are engaging in warfareagainst us because let's face
it, Hamas don't dogfight, theydon't have F-35s, F-16s, F-15s.
You know, they don't have theM1A1As.
So they wage war in theshadows.
(22:31):
But make no mistake, it's awar, nevertheless.
Al Palmer (22:37):
Well, and when you get so when you get so narrow,
too, that you try to definepeople by the the existing
standards like the GenevaConventions that were written
years ago when we didn't havethis focus on terrorism, you
know, oh, they they're the guysthat are wearing uniforms,
they're wearing patches, they'rewearing red crosses, so that
(22:59):
means they're an actualcombatant or they're exempt from
those things.
But they don't do that, dothey?
They're not wearing theuniforms that we always had worn
in combat before.
And uh, in doing the kind ofwork we're doing from 30,000
feet with a camera on a boatskimming across the ocean, you
can't see anyway.
Bruce Tucker Smith (23:20):
No, it I mean it's true.
I I don't believe that thesenarco-terrorists fit the
definition of a lawfulcombatant, which would entitle
them to protections under theGeneva Convention.
And there's a laundry list ofcriteria that mark you as a
lawful combatant, chief amongwhich is that you yourself obey
and follow the law of war.
(23:41):
And then there are othercriteria that you wear
distinctive uniforms, you flyunder a uh recognizable banner,
you have a chain of command,etc.
And when you are a lawfulcombatant, then you are entitled
to protections under the GenevaConvention.
And the United Stateshistorically has been, as you
know, Al, uh incrediblyattentive to paying attention to
(24:02):
the law of war and notviolating the law of war.
But these folks don't adhere toit, they don't follow it.
Ergo, they're not entitled tothe protections of the law of
war, in my opinion.
Um but they are clearly adanger to this nation, the
drugs, the money that they makefrom drugs, what where that
money goes.
(24:23):
Uh and so the president, asboth the commander-in-chief of
the armed forces and thenation's chief law enforcement
officer, would be derelict inhis duties if he did not take on
this clear threat right on ourshores.
Al Palmer (24:41):
So and the and the other issue in this is the
number of people who have diedas a result of this drug traffic
each year in our country, up to100,000 people a year, is about
twice as many as we lost in thewhole Vietnam War.
unknown (24:58):
Yeah.
Al Palmer (24:59):
I mean, that's that's terrible.
Bruce Tucker Smith (25:01):
And and it's not it's not an accident.
This is an intentionally wagedwar against the people of the
United States.
Um and I, for the life of me,do not understand why the some
factions in the Democrat Partyfeel so obliged to protect and
(25:21):
defend these people who areclearly trying to wage war on
us.
I I've never understood whattheir agenda is, why they feel
uh so uh uh emboldened to try toprotect those who would harm
us.
I don't get it.
Al Palmer (25:35):
I don't I don't either, like you, except the
only thing I can think of isit's just because they want to
be against something.
So you know, it's the you know,the the the enemy of my friend
is my friend, you know.
So they are attacking,attaching themselves to this
issue just to fight theadministration and make
political points is prettyclear.
(25:57):
Because there's no othersensible argument about that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (26:00):
I think you're uh as always, Alan, you
you've nailed it.
That's what what you in the inthe in the flying business would
call a shack.
Um and and that's fine, youknow.
Uh in America, you know,politics is a hardball sport.
I get it.
But when you start to involvethe military, when you try to
intentionally involve themilitary in a political, a
(26:22):
domestic political dispute, man,you have crossed a line that
should never have been crossed.
That is just not what we do inthe United States.
Al Palmer (26:32):
And there's a whole host of unintended consequences,
which would probably springfrom that.
I mean, you know, back in backin Vietnam, we had a problem
with race relations and it gotout of control, and all of a
sudden you had uh whole crews onaircraft carriers going on, you
know, a revolt uh over somesmall issues.
(26:54):
Once you start that, there's nopredicting where it's going to
go, in my humble opinion.
Bruce Tucker Smith (27:00):
It's true, and and I I suspect you you have
done, well, you and STARS havedone some yeoman service
highlighting uh the pastadministration and its social
policies intentionally inflictedon the military, which goes to
your exact point.
It it had the effect ofundermining military discipline,
(27:22):
effectiveness, readiness.
Um and it's it's far worse thaneven the fools on the view
would care to understand.
Um but and that and this isjust another example.
But but I I mean to tell you,when when Mark Kelly, in
essence, is implying to theuniformed service personnel that
(27:45):
the orders given to them by thecommander-in-chiefs of the
Secretary of War are unlawful.
There's only one there's onlyone possible reason he's doing
that, and that's to incitemutiny.
Al Palmer (27:58):
And it's well, and I'm also struck by the fact that
that that they got that farlast week or so.
Uh and and they thought I thinkthey were turning a corner on
this.
Turned out they weren't.
So today the story is, well,this one boat, the last one that
they struck, it was a secondstrike.
Uh and that was bad.
(28:19):
You shouldn't do that to hurtthose people because they're
just shipwrecked people.
Well, first of all, what theywhat they did to that boat was
not a shipwreck.
It was an intentional strike toput them out of business.
If they ran across a sandbar orran aground someplace or had a
fire on board and had to abandonship, that's another matter.
And that's pretty obvious topeople.
(28:40):
But but now they've they'vetaken us to a new direction.
Here they are hanging on to theboat, and somehow that still
makes them a combatant if theyhaven't abandoned their ship.
And if they're trying to talkon the radio to communicate with
other people, as has beenrumored, uh that that's an
intentional way of continuingthe fight.
(29:00):
And in that case, they wouldhave been right to continue
whatever effort they needed todo to put them out of business.
Bruce Tucker Smith (29:07):
Well, again, you've you've nailed it,
Commander.
Um, there is, as you know, anentire, and I mean
centuries-old, body of law inmaritime law that says you come
to the aid of a mariner indistress.
Absolutely.
And there's not a nation in theworld that doesn't adhere to
that law.
But this is war.
They're not shipwrecked.
(29:28):
These are enemy combatants whoare now.
Maybe if you had the capabilityto go grab one of them for
intel purposes, but they'restill targets.
They are still targets, andthey may not have the instant
ability to wage war or returnfire, but they are still
combatants, and as such, theyare legitimate targets.
(29:52):
Period.
Al Palmer (29:54):
What I would tell the good Senator Kelly is so you
want to make up bad guys on thisby going after people like
that.
But haven't we been the onesthat are the first to show up
when there's a tsunami in thePacific or there's a volcano
that's uh you know gone off oranother natural disaster
(30:15):
someplace?
We, particularly the UnitedStates Navy and the Marines and
Coast Guard, are the first onesto show up.
We're there to help people.
But you know what?
There are orders that go withthat too.
There are orders that aredeveloped probably from the
president on down through SECDEFto send troops out of their way
to take care of those things.
(30:36):
Now, are those illegal orders?
Bruce Tucker Smith (30:40):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Even though, strictly speaking,humanitarian work is not the
mission of the military.
Uh absolutely, the sea serviceshave always, always been there.
The Air Force with heavyairlift capability of getting
people, material, suppliesaround the globe.
(31:02):
And our our track record onthis is unparalleled amongst the
nations of the world.
The United States has alwaysbeen incredibly generous with
its resources to help otherhuman beings.
And that's you know, it's ourpride and it's our honor to do
it.
But you make a great point.
Is that strictly speaking themission of the armed forces?
(31:23):
To kill people and breakthings?
No.
Does that so we're going alittle off script when we do
humanitarian stuff?
Yeah, so if someone wanted tocomplain about it.
Al Palmer (31:35):
But it is a story, is it not, that kind of balances
some of this out?
Uh I remember this back duringuh you know the Gulf War.
Uh and I was out in Hawaii andI was working with a PACAF
commander out there building anaviation museum at Pearl Harbor.
And one day he had a meetingand he was trying to defend what
(31:55):
the criticism was of the AirForce and being you know part of
that effort uh in the Mideast.
And they and their method waswe don't want to say much
because we don't want to betargets, so we're not going to
say anything at all.
And I remember putting my handup and saying, General, look, if
you don't say something todefend yourself, who's going to
(32:15):
do that?
Particularly in thisenvironment that we have today.
And I do think that it wouldbehoove uh Heg Seth and
everybody else to start talkingin more positive terms about
things like we do.
I mean, no one no one says yougot to go out there and do
disaster relief and get peopleresettled and drop food to them
(32:36):
and spend your time.
No one says we have to do that.
We do it because it's the rightthing to do.
And that's I think that's anantidote a bit for what this
bunch is trying to do.
Because you're right, they'rejust trying to foment unrest and
uh disobedience in theiranxious, uh, which ain't a good
thing.
But we do good things, andmaybe it's time for us to talk
(32:59):
more about that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:00):
And that goes back to your point you made
it a little earlier about sowhat do we, who are of this
mindset, what do we do tocounteract what the Mark Kellys
and the Senator Slotkins?
The answer is stand up and beheard.
Al Palmer (33:14):
Yes.
Bruce Tucker Smith (33:14):
Yeah.
Raise your voice in the publicsquare and be heard and remind
the world what it is that we dowhen we're not we're not
dropping bombs.
And that's most of the time.
The military, most of the time,we're not fighting.
And a lot of times we're simplyhelping people.
Uh, and then you let's just addto that our our National Guard
(33:34):
brothers and sisters.
The National Guard routinelycalled upon by the state
governors to respond to floods,natural disasters, earthquakes,
tornadoes, hurricanes, and onand on and on.
These are people in uniform whoare giving uh of time and
treasure and and were spendingmoney simply to help people.
(33:57):
So this, and I again, I and youmake again the point, I never
understand why people in ourcompany in our country,
particularly people who haveserved and and the political
left in recent years, feel soobliged to run down the military
and run down this country.
Uh exactly.
(34:18):
I I I it it befuddles me.
And the only answer is you'redoing it for cheap political
points to self-endself-grandize.
And and I say, when you dothat, then you, sir, you ma'am,
are a disgrace to the uniformthat you used to wear.
Al Palmer (34:35):
Well, of course, I my my time was in Vietnam, and
when we came back home, therewere not a lot of people who
were welcoming us coming off anairplane.
And and over and over theyears, uh, of course, that's
changed a bit, which is reallygood.
And people do appreciate whatthe military does.
And often people come out to meif they recognize me if I'm
(34:55):
wearing a t-shirt or hat orsomething, and they'll say,
Well, sir, thanks, thanks verymuch.
We really appreciate yourservice.
Thank you for your service.
And I always go back to themand I say, Well, how'd that work
out for you?
And they go, What?
Well, you're you're nice andsafe.
You're in a nice grocery storewith your kids, they all look
like they're pretty healthy.
(35:16):
Hasn't that worked out well foryou, too?
Oh yeah.
And that's the kind of thing Ithink we might want to start
thinking about.
But uh, this is the purpose, isuh Bruce, as you as a wonderful
member of our board of advisorsand one of our staunch uh legal
minds.
We know how that works with theoutside world.
(35:36):
You just have to convince them,as we're talking about now,
about the things that can workout better for you rather than
just gripe about things thataren't working.
Bruce Tucker Smith (35:46):
Well, and I'll tell you, so there's some
very encouraging signs, and andum I'm very proud of this fact.
I have a grandson who just twoweeks ago graduated from Air
Force Basic Training atLackland, and uh he's now on his
way to his specialty school.
Um, I can report to you thatthe esprit amongst the kids in
(36:06):
his training class going throughLackland, he said these kids
are just fire eaters.
They're just rare in the go.
They're proud of that uniform,their families are proud of that
uniform.
And you know, we we all knowthat during the Biden
administration, uh, recruitingtook a serious nosedive, serious
nosedive.
And and the reason for that, weknow this, you and I are
(36:31):
examples of this.
Military service tends to runin families.
And during the Bidenadministration, you had parents
and grandparents saying to thekids, yeah, I don't think I'd
put on the uniform right now.
I don't think it's a very goodtime to be serving the country.
And I'm uh no politicalcommercial here, but almost
immediately upon Trump'selection, Heg Seth being in
(36:53):
office, recruiting has gonethrough the roof.
They're turning kids away.
People want to serve becausetheir families are saying, now's
the time to go, we've gotleadership now.
So I was I was very encouraged.
And so the downstream effect ofthat is the kids like my
grandson, 19 years old, uh, oneday he's gonna come out of the
(37:15):
service and he's gonna go outinto society, he and the other
people with him, and and he'llhave a story to tell.
Like we do what we do.
And so I put congrats uh in theyoung people that are that are
signing up now because they arethey're our best hope going
forward.
Um they'll they'll tell thestory, but we need to keep
(37:35):
telling the story.
Al Palmer (37:37):
Well, I was uh I was given a speech at a military
ball up in uh Minnesota severalmonths ago, and this lieutenant
colonel came up to me and hewanted to kind of call me in the
in the corner here and talk tome.
And he uh and uh and I said, sowhat's bothering you?
He says, Well, my son is at theAir Force Academy.
He's uh he's in his third year,uh, and he's now saying to me,
(38:02):
I don't want to stick around,Dad.
The the stuff I see isdiscouraging, and I don't think
I'll be happy because all thesethings are happening.
And I said, Look, Colonel, uh,you need to sit him down and
talk to him, and and you cantell him from somebody else
outside that that has been thereand done it, he'll be happy
with that journey.
(38:22):
You know, no one knows wherethey're gonna go.
It's it is an adventure.
Uh you you don't know whatyou're gonna do, where you're
gonna show up.
You write a blank check toUncle Sam, and then you're kind
of on your own.
But I said that's the joy init, is is discovering what you
can do and how people can work.
So I said, you know, tell themto stick with it.
(38:42):
He wrote me back a few weeksago and said, yeah, he decided
to stick it out, uh, and he'llbe uh and he graduated, uh,
which is great.
But without that support andand something to point to,
people are ready to leap intothe the current jargon or
whatever happens to be thepopular point of view.
(39:04):
Unfortunately, sometimes that'sa negative point of view,
right?
So I'm so glad to see your uhyour grandson come out of this.
And uh thanks for sharing himwith the country.
Bruce Tucker Smith (39:16):
Well, he's he's a great kid, and and and
there's but there's a milliongreat kids just like him, and
that's that's the thing that youget.
Yeah, the other thing to beremembered is this we all tend
to um look at our militarycareers with a little bit of
rose-colored glasses.
Man, everything was just great.
Well, no, it wasn't.
There were a lot of days whenit was horrible.
I mean, it was, and and you youfar better than I uh from your
(39:40):
service in Vietnam.
There were a lot of days it wasa Charlie Foxtrot, but on
balance, service above self,dedication to the mission, the
people that you served with,even in the worst of
circumstances, that's what makesthat's what makes our country
and our military great.
Um, you know.
Al Palmer (40:02):
Well, I see some of these these uh uh media folks
and celebrities and politiciansscurrying around trying to dress
themselves up to makethemselves look like they've
done something, and it's kind ofpathetic in a way.
Uh but but you and I knowbecause we've run across them
some true true heroes andremarkable people who've done
(40:26):
exceptional things.
And some of them you you wouldnever have thought about that.
One that comes to mind is ChuckYeager.
You know, Chuck Yeager camefrom West Virginia and barely
got out of grade school, wentinto the Air Force as an
enlisted guy, became a pilot,and and was had an amazing
career.
(40:46):
But Chuck Yeager would sayhimself, he said, if I hadn't
had that opportunity, I wouldhave gone nowhere.
Bruce Tucker Smith (40:55):
You know, the other night my wife and I
were watching Jeopardy, andthere was a question that came
on that had to do with militaryranks, and all three of the
contestants did not know, theythought a sergeant outranked a
major.
Now, in reality, we shouldought to the majors ought to
listen to the sergeant some alot of times, but the the the
(41:16):
percentage of the populationwho've never served don't know a
corporal from you know thechief of staff.
They don't know.
And it's and it's but this isthe price tag we have for an
all-volunteer military.
Um it's too bad that we don'thave a draft.
I think universal service wouldbenefit the entire nation and
(41:37):
would give everybody a bettersense of how the military works.
Even if you peel potatoes inLouisiana and that's all you
ever did, uh it would it wouldbe beneficial to the nation.
And frankly, while we do have anumber of people in Congress,
and we're talking about themhere today, who have served, um,
we don't have enough becauseit's Congress that has the
(42:00):
authority to make war.
And it would certainly be abenefit to our democracy and our
republic if we had moreinformed people making those
decisions had they simplyserved.
So um that's that's thedownstream price tag of an
all-volunteer force, but thereyou have it.
Al Palmer (42:20):
But one of the things that's happened is within the
within the public, the outsideworld, uh academics and
performance in schools has goneright down the tubes.
Uh there the kids are notlearning, they're not digesting
things, and then they go outinto the workplace and they
can't get a job, or when theydo, they can't perform very
(42:42):
well.
The military has always found away to solve that.
You know, we train people well,and even if they don't know a
whole lot, like Chuck Yeager,when he when he first came into
the Air Force as a mechanic,became an amazing fighter pilot,
broke the sound barrier, andand yet he didn't have the
formal education that most ofour kids get going through the
(43:05):
eighth grade.
But he was able to do it.
We in the military can handlethat.
We can train people to dothings, and they'll do amazing
things.
So you're right, it would begood if we had some sort of uh
not compulsory service, butservice where we could we could
say, we'll take you for a fewyears, we'll train you, spend
(43:27):
some time with us, and if youwant to spend a career, that's
great, we'll even do more foryou.
But but I think there's a valuethere to the general public
that a lot of people don't seewith the military.
Bruce Tucker Smith (43:38):
And I'll tell you something that we all
should be very proud of is ourNCO Corps in our service
branches.
Uh our NCOs have and shouldhave always run the military.
You know, officers, we get weget the privilege of leadership,
but but the men and women whoare wearing the stripes, the
NCOs, our NCO corps, they are,as a group, I think, the most
(44:01):
amazing human beings on theplanet.
And boy, when when those folkscome out of military service, go
in at age 18, do 20 years, theycome out age 30, 8, 40, they're
still very young people.
You talk about you talk about agroup of people you want
working in your industries, arethese incredible former NCOs
who've who've had one foot onthe loading dock and one foot in
(44:24):
the boardroom.
Uh, and it's something weshould be extraordinarily proud
of because no other military inthe world uh cultivates and puts
as much strength and and andfaith as we do in our NCOs.
And I, you know, talk about ajust an incredible group of
Americans.
So, you know, they they're anamazing resource, and um, and I
(44:47):
and I suspect so many of them goon and are tremendously
successful in in commercialbusiness life after they get out
of the service.
Al Palmer (44:55):
To our audience, uh, if you want to know how that
works, uh, there was a reallygood mini-series done on
aircraft carriers calledCarrier.
And it it and it talked aboutlife on board, and it focused a
lot on uh the the senior uh uhlead chief petty officer on the
ship, uh, who who had everybodyin line.
(45:17):
He knew how to handle people,he knew what to do to get them
to be uh energized and work.
I also knew he also knew how toget them straightened out when
they didn't do something right.
That is an amazing thing to do.
But that's a really good way oflooking at it.
That was a good series thatdemonstrated that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (45:34):
It was, and and and let's let's face it, um,
you know, I'm certain goodchunks of my career were due in
large part to the outstandingNCOs I worked with when I was a
young captain, young lieutenantand captain.
Um, and and so that again, thatrelationship in the service
when you're a young officer, ifyou have enough good sense and
(45:55):
judgment and can put your ego incheck to listen to what the
NCOs are telling you, man, theyare a storehouse of wisdom if
you just pay attention.
And uh again, you take you takethat out of service and go into
corporate business America.
Wow, you can't meet thosepeople, can't beat them.
Al Palmer (46:14):
Well, Bruce, listen, this has been such a really
interesting discussion becausewe've gone quite a ways away
from just talking about law, aswe wanted to start with here.
But I wanted to thank you somuch for being with us today to
delve into this.
I think there's more to comefrom this, uh, but for anybody
that doesn't know what STARSdoes, we're the people who
(46:35):
aren't partisan.
You know, we don't have a dogin a fight.
Uh, you know, as somebody oncesaid, if you bark at every if
you stop and try to correctevery dog on your journey down
the road, they'll never get towhere you go for fighting
barking.
So we we try to do things in asmart way at STARS, and we've
been successful.
We've we've made changes, we'vedone things that benefit the
(46:58):
troops, their families, and allthat.
And uh I want to thank you forbeing a big part of that uh with
STARS, but not just SARS, youknow, Bruce, you you've had an
amazing career of protecting thetroops and the law, and uh you
know, we all do this in our ownsmall way, I guess, but uh I
want to just thank you again foryour service and what you're
(47:20):
doing.
Maybe I'll be able to do that.
Bruce Tucker Smith (47:24):
Well, for me, it's uh it it's an honor,
and and again, our veryconversation here answers your
opening question.
What do we do to push backagainst those who speak in
opposition to us?
You're doing it.
We're we're we're having thisconversation in public.
(47:46):
We're encouraging others tohave that conversation.
Maybe our words will generateother smarter people to think
different thoughts and go outand speak their truth.
So this is how you do it.
It's freedom of speech, it'sthe first amendment, it's the
constitution, it's that thingyou and I swore to protect with
our very lives.
(48:07):
And so we're doing right hereexactly what the Founding
Fathers wanted us to do.
Exactly.
Al Palmer (48:15):
And as you you uh mentioned to me the other day
when we were talking about someof this, you know, we signed up,
we committed ourselves to a lotof risk, uh, and a lot of not
always good times.
But as you said, we signed up,raised our hands, and we did it
for a piece of paper.
Bruce Tucker Smith (48:35):
Yeah, we didn't we didn't swear to
uphold, protect, defend thenation, the flag, mom, the girl
next door, apple pie, baseball,none of that.
We swore to defend with ourlives an idea, you know, a
document, a piece of paper, thelaw stuff.
Well, you know, and the and theand again, the first amendment,
(48:59):
the most important one, thefreedom of speech part.
So, Captain Kelly, you want tostand in the public square and
be an idiot?
Okay, we're gonna stand up andoppose you, and we're gonna do
it loudly.
That's how America works.
Al Palmer (49:13):
And I and I'm happy to invite him or any of the crew
of six to come on our podcastand we can talk about it.
Bruce Tucker Smith (49:22):
Yeah, I'd like to see that.
Al Palmer (49:25):
I'm sure a lot of people might.
Well, Bruce, listen, thanksagain for for uh reprieves of
our earlier uh thing together,and and you've done a remarkable
job.
To our audience, uh, we hopeyou'll like this.
If you do, you can always dropus a line on stars.
Go to our stars website,stars.us, and you can probably
(49:47):
do that.
Uh but in the meantime, we'llbe back next week with another
episode of Stars, and this timewe'll be talking a little bit
about ideologies that don'twork.
So stay tuned for that.
And with that, good night.
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