What happens when mystery collides with science?
In this episode, Robert Barber and returning guest Dr. Brian Parsons dig deeper into America’s strangest cryptid cases—like the Murfreesboro Mud Monster, black goo evidence, and unexplained footprints.
From haunted forests to local law enforcement transparency, we explore why paranormal stories like Bigfoot endure—and how they fill the same mythic space ancient legends once did.
Whether you’re a believer or a skeptic, this is true folklore in motion.
🎧 Listen now for rare insight into the psychology, symbolism, and stakes of American cryptid folklore.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last time on State of the Unknown, we sat down with
Dr Brian D Parsons, researcher,investigator and author of
Eastern Cryptids.
We explored the roots ofAmerica's strangest legends and
why these creatures refuse tovanish from our folklore.
If you missed part one, go backand start there.
(00:23):
This one picks up right in themiddle of the mystery, and today
we pick up right where we leftoff, diving deeper into the
sightings, the theories and thequestions that might never be
answered.
I'm your host, robert Barber.
This is part two of ourconversation and this is State
(00:46):
of the Unknown.
Welcome back, dr Parsons.
Let's shift from the biggerpicture to the creatures
themselves.
Out of all the cryptids inEastern Cryptidsids, is there
one that stands out to you asyour personal favorite, and not
(01:07):
just the one that you mightbelieve in the most, but the one
that fascinates you?
Maybe it's the weirdest story,the most persistent folklore, or
just the one that refuses tolet go one story that really
jumps out to me that I reallyenjoyed researching.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I didn't realize like all the uh, the ebbs and tides
and the highs and lows was withthe murfreesboro mud monster in
illinois.
So this one.
Several different peopleclaimed they see and hear this
creature.
There were footprints leftbehind that aren't human
footprints.
They're long and thin.
These kids at a park they'dseen it.
And then another kid in hisbackyard saw it.
(01:44):
His parents didn't believe him,but then the they'd seen it.
And then another kid in hisbackyard saw it.
His parents didn't believe him,but then the neighbor had seen
it.
They brought all these police,the whole entire police force,
out there looking for this thing.
They had search dogs thatpicked up on a scent.
They found this black goo thatthey never were able to identify
.
They followed this descent intoa barn and the dog refused to
go in there.
You, you hear that a milliontimes.
But all the weird stuff thathappened, all the interviews and
(02:07):
all the strange stuff.
It sounds just like any othercryptid story.
However, the weird thing aboutit is the Murfreesboro Police
Department.
If you go to their website,they have on a PDF file all of
the interviews, all of thereports, photographs, file, all
of the interviews, all of thereports, photographs a lot of
(02:29):
it's fan mail, but they have allthe information ever gathered
about that case for anyone tolook at.
And that's the only case inthis book that I've ever seen
that the police has madepublicly available for anyone to
go and look at.
And I just found thatfascinating and to just read
through that, which made writingthis a whole heck of a lot
easier, because there it is,there's a whole pile of
information.
If everybody did that, you know, somebody would have already
(02:51):
written this book probably 20times.
But I just found that story Imean the story itself wasn't
overly fascinating.
It was again very similar toyou know, just enough data to
not really find anythingcredible.
And the stories themselves areincredible of seeing this
creature and people fearing fortheir lives and running through
(03:14):
the backyard.
There's a lot of stories thatare very similar to that, but
the fact that all thatinformation is readily available
to the public I find reallyfascinating as a researcher
especially Interesting, so Iwant to shift gears.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So let's talk about Sasquatch.
You brought it up, so I'm goingto bring it up again.
It's almost a cultural icon atthis point America's flagship
cryptid With so many sightings,hoaxes, theories and media
portrayals.
What's your personal take?
Do you think there's somethingreal there and if so, what is?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Sasquatch.
So there's a lot of camps ofthought and it's in the cryptid
field you have with, especially,bigfoot.
I almost wish my dream, if Icould have things any way I
wanted with cryptozoology, wouldbe to actually remove Bigfoot
from cryptozoology and have itsown field called Bigfootology,
(04:10):
because it's so dominating.
Like you said, it's theflagship, he's the big guy.
Bigfoot is so big itovershadows all these no pun
intended all these othercreatures.
But what's cool to me is,granted, we've had schools of
thought for a long time, peopleof the gigantopithecus thing.
That's been around for a longtime, even the interdimensional
(04:31):
folks.
That's been around for about 20, 30 years, since the chaos
theory which was made famous byIan Malcolm in the Jurassic Park
, Michael Crichton novel andsubsequent movies which with
chaos theory, and then we getinto string theory and now we're
in the multiverse theory.
So you know, being in the ghostfield, you kind of have to if
(04:52):
you want to be taken somewhatseriously.
You have to understand physics.
But it's weird to hear, likebigfoot, people talking about
interdimensional creatures andstuff, like you guys know and
and they're all like, they allsay the same thing, like this is
this is, uh, theoretical,there's, there's working models.
I was like no, there's not.
Like this is not, this is notreally happening.
(05:13):
There's no interdimensionalanything like this.
It's all hypotheses, like thisisn't like really happening.
But they they're under thisimpression that we know that
this happens and we're watchingit or whatever.
But it's not.
But that camp has been aroundfor a while and it seems like
it's getting a little strongerand I wonder why, when you have
(05:34):
movies and TV shows that arelazily, hastily written using
intradimensional characters, youcan kill one off and bring one
off from Earth-388, and you'reall set.
But it's lazy writing.
I can't stand movies and showslike that.
It's boring.
Anyway, and I think that's kindof where we're at with
cryptozoology in the Bigfootfield, because hey, these
(05:55):
creatures are coming in and out,these witnesses will see it,
and then it's gone the nextsecond we're following these
tracks and then they're gone.
I mean it's nature, thesetracks and they're gone.
I mean it's nature.
Have you ever followed a deerand a deer disappears?
Does it mean it's goinginterdimensional?
No, they run away and they hide, they camouflage themselves.
Deer prints change as elevationchanges, you get away from um
lakes and rivers, the watertable changes and you're not
(06:16):
going to have this many prints.
The grass changes and the angleof the sun everything affects a
print in different ways.
Prints disappear within days oreven hours.
Sometimes you know if it's inthe grass the grass is going to
pop back up.
Mud dries Mud.
When it rains, it washes out,you know, reanimates.
This isn't like permanent.
This isn't your attic whereeverything's like a museum.
(06:38):
It stays the same for decades.
But you know, then you have theflesh and bullet crew and I
guess I would put myself in that, but I don't know how that
works and I don't claim to knowhow that works.
I'm not a gigantopithecusperson, because I don't think,
knowing what a gigantopithecusis and it wasn't it doesn't make
any sense.
Um, this would have to besomething completely different.
(07:00):
But I can't, there's no way Ican, I can't explain it because
it doesn't make sense.
You know we'd have to find someother thing.
Between neanderthal andholosapien there would have to
be some other missing link foundthat would kind of point us in
that direction.
And so far it hasn't happened.
And with the amount of so andthis is, people get mad when I,
(07:21):
when I play this role, butyou'll hear these people talk
and they'll say well, with thewith a large number of reports
all over the world.
There has to be Bigfoot,because so many people are
seeing them and so many peopleare reporting them.
Drop the mic, look at that.
Then my question is well, ifthere's so many reports, then
where's the evidence?
Where's the evidence?
(07:42):
Where's the lineage, if we haveall of these creatures all over
the place?
First of all, where's the bones?
Where's the evidence?
Where's the fossils?
We'd have to have fossils.
These things just didn't justappear here.
They would have to have evolved.
Second of all, if you have 500different types of Bigfoot all
over the world, yet they're alldifferent.
(08:02):
Some are tall, some are small,some are fat, some are thin,
some have four toes, some havethree toes, some have two toes,
some have five, some have largearms that hang below their knees
, some have hands that aremid-thigh, some, you know,
different colored fur.
If all all these things aretrue, we have such a variation.
(08:26):
That doesn't make sense either.
You know, granted, humans we'revery diverse.
To another creature, we're allthe same thing, but these
creatures are so various whenyou're talking about them, I
just can't make any sense of it.
But if I had to, if I had tosay, I would say that they're
flesh and blood.
However, to quote one of myfavorite scientists, neil
(08:46):
degrasse tyson I he said this onstar talk and it totally made
sense to me.
This is exactly how I felt andI didn't realize it until he
said it that my belief insomething, especially bigfoot
and a lot of these cryptids, isexactly equal to the amount of
data that supports it.
I think I said it pretty closeto how he said it.
I haven't really thought aboutit since.
(09:07):
I heard that about a week ago,but it's true.
People ask me do you believe inBigfoot?
I'm like well, I believe thatpeople believe in Bigfoot.
I believe that there issomething that people feel is
Bigfoot, but do I believe thatI'm going to run out there and
throw a net over a creature anddrag it in?
Then the answer is no.
(09:27):
I don't think we're ever goingto find a flesh and blood
creature.
However, bigfoot exists inculture, exists in folklore,
exists out there because webelieve in it.
It exists because we believe init.
And then, if you're going toask me that way, then absolutely
100%.
I believe, absolutely 100.
I believe it's bigfoot becauseit's.
It's there, it's already there,it's ingrained in our culture.
(09:49):
So I can't not believe in itbecause it's there, but do I do?
I think we're ever going tofind one.
I almost hope we don't, becausethat's going to ruin, it's
going to burst that bubble, it'sgoing to change everything.
And I think a lot of researchersfeel that same way.
The ones that are like I'vebeen looking for a big for my
whole life.
I never had a sighting.
It's like what would you do ifyou did?
Like would that change anything?
(10:10):
I'm like, oh no, and then you.
Then they think about it likeyou gosh, yeah, I don't want to
find one now.
Thanks for telling me that,because it would change
everything.
It would change yourperspective.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's a really interesting way of looking at
things, and I can completely seewhat you're talking about there
.
Now we've been talking abouthow much of this connects to
legend and folklore.
Do you think these stories filla certain void in modern life?
Maybe that's why so many peopleare drawn to believing in
something ancient or primal thatscience or society no longer
(10:43):
provides.
In the past, whether in NativeAmerican traditions or even
further back, a lot of legendsemerged as ways to explain the
unknown.
Now, with modern science and amore advanced society, there's a
lot less mystery.
Do you think that changeaffects how people connect to
(11:04):
these legends today?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you look at the Greeks,you know they had Zeus and they
had.
You know all these gods and youknow, I mean, granted, we have
Thor nowadays, but you know allthese ancient cultures, these,
these stories to pass down ofthese gods which explain things
and gave them perspective on theworld and gave them, um, that
(11:26):
feeling of a place on thisplanet and a reason for existing
and, um, you know that, uh,pathway to, you know, the other
world, depending upon theculture.
You know the egyptians or thegreek or the romans or whom
whomever you know, had all thesedifferent, different ideas.
And of course, you know not tobash religion.
(11:46):
But here comes christianity,riding across the country,
killing in the name of andtrying to spread their word that
we're the best, we're the,we're what you need to believe
in, and unfortunately, like that, dominates the landscape.
Now, you know we have a lot ofdifferent religions, but
Christianity, catholicism,pretty much dominate the
(12:07):
landscape.
But there's other outliers thatkind of believe different
things.
So people are less likely tobelieve in those things, to
change their thoughts and ideas.
But I think now we don't havethose as much stories and of
course, you know, religionsbecome a part of capitalism.
You know they have theirbusiness and it's, uh, taking
(12:28):
the money and it's, you know,having the pastor driving the
ferrari around.
I could say all these things.
I'm a reverend, I belong to achurch, so I could say those
things.
Things have changed when you'retalking about religion and
these stories and the belief.
We don't have those thingsanymore.
And it's like you said, we dohave science to latch onto, but
(12:48):
I think a lot of people thatbelieve in this stuff don't
really have a firm grasp onscience anyway, which is not to
be mean, that's just how it is.
Some people just don't care,like I don't care about math
anymore.
I gotta calculate.
What the heck do I need to knowabout math anymore, except for
statistics, of course, being inresearch.
But you know, we we have tohave something to grasp, we have
(13:09):
to have something to get usthrough our day, we have to have
something to hold our interestor to think that there's
something beyond what we know.
And this is it, this.
You either believe in ghosts,you believe in cryptids or you
believe in ufos.
Some people believe in allthree, but it's.
It's interesting how differentgroups of people believe in
(13:29):
different things like this thatare pseudo-scientific and
scientists don't like that atall, but it's, it's part of
culture, it's part of somethingbeyond what we know, and it's
again it's that you almost hopewe don't find anything, because
then it's going to ruin all thatbelief.
Because, oh, now it's truth,it's not just you know something
(13:50):
that I want to believe in, it'snow it's true.
Which would change it, it wouldchange the concept.
I think, um, but yeah, I, Ithink it's.
It's firmly rooted in you know,the, you know, going back
thousands of years and different, different, uh, beliefs.
You know, the mayans had theirs, the egyptians had theirs, the
(14:10):
greeks and the romans, everybodyhad their belief systems.
And you know, granted, you knowwe give, bigfoot's got
superpowers, you know, just likegods and goddesses of their day
.
You know, mothman can fly.
He's like 300 pounds, but hecan fly around the sky.
I don't know how, but okay, youknow bigfoot can throw trees.
Um, yeah, I think it fills a gap, it fills a void.
(14:31):
Um, people who are people whoare religious aren't necessarily
spiritual, if that makes sense.
So some people fill the gapsagain with the ghost field, I
think with cryptozoology as well.
I meet a lot of people thatbelieve in this stuff so much
that they cry when they talkabout it.
It fills that void, it fillsthat gap of spirituality that
they need something like that toget them through their day and
(14:54):
their life.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
I'm not bashing those people.
I think it's fantastic that youbelieve in something at all,
because some people don'tbelieve in anything.
And it's good to have thatbelief, as long as you don't
take it too far.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You've got a point there.
Throughout history, from eventslike the Crusades to countless
other conflicts, millions ofpeople have lost their lives
because of belief.
Now, as someone who has been inthis field for decades, what do
you think is next forcryptozoology?
Are we moving toward a morescientific, data-driven era, or
(15:35):
is the future more aboutfolklore, cultural storytelling
and reinterpreting the past?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
so, like I, I mentioned before that mid-1940s,
when the term was coined byibert t sanderson not bernard
hoovemans, but he, he also cameup with it.
You know, we had the idea ofexploration, of looking for
these creatures, of documentingthese sightings, but it's it's
kind of become more ofdocumentation, it's become more
of the folklore and I don'treally see us getting out of
(16:06):
that.
I see more of the same, youknow.
And again, when you definecryptozoology through the eyes
of science, they poo-poo it andthey say, oh, it's pseudoscience
, they haven't really come upwith anything new, which is true
.
It's like the ghost field.
It's been the same stuff forover 140 years now.
(16:26):
Cryptozoology hasn't reallyevolved, it hasn't really come
anywhere, and I know there's alot of people that are probably
punching their car radios orthey're throwing their phones
across the room right now.
It's understandable and it'sfrustrating.
Trust me, like I'm I want thisto.
I would like to see this fieldget better and grow and and find
things and discover things, butit's just, it's just not.
(16:48):
It's just not what it does.
Cryptozoology is a belief system.
It's not a scientific field,it's not.
It's not a a segment of zoology, it's not even a part of um,
folklore, you know, uh, folklorestudies or anything like that.
It's, it's, it's on its own,it's a belief system, so it's
not going to evolve.
You know, we can try as wemight, um, and there's going to
(17:10):
be plenty of people that aregoing to put themselves out
there and try to create newtechnology to find bigfoot and,
um, you know, maybe radarsystems to find these
thunderbirds flying around.
You know, I don't know, but Idon't see a lot of that
happening.
We haven't seen a lot of thathappen in the last 20, 30 years.
Uh, there's been some peoplethat have tried, you know,
(17:33):
drones and other tech, butreally it's funny because they
they use this tech to to uh tryto find bigfoot and all these
other creatures.
They ended up trying, theyended up using it more now for
finding missing persons in thewoods, which is fantastic.
It's almost like the spaceprogram.
You know, if we wouldn't, wewouldn't try to go to space, we
(17:53):
wouldn't invent, you know, zerogravity pens and all these other
things that that are fantastic.
But anyway, yeah, I, I don't, Idon't really see the field
growing or evolving.
I think it's just more of thesame, just a more modern version
, if that makes sense.
So things like the montaukmonster, misinterpretation of of
(18:14):
creatures I guess the montaukmonster was one, too, that I
should have mentioned.
I really loved that because itwas one of the most viral
stories of 2008.
It was just, yeah, it was aphotograph of a dead raccoon, of
dead, bloated, burnt raccoonthat people just argued for
hours on, and in the book I saidanybody with a thumb had an
opinion, which was true, and itwas.
(18:37):
To me, that was veryentertaining.
I love that because people areso passionate about that and
opinionated and firm in theirfirm in their grasp and what was
happening.
And then, you know, the truthcame out and by then, everybody
moved on.
Nobody cared that it was was apoor, tortured raccoon that had
been given a Viking funeral,basically, and it was what Jeff
(19:02):
Korn said it was.
He knows what he's talkingabout.
But, yeah, everybody, like allthese famous biologists, came
out of the woodwork and wereasked what do you think?
The Montauk monster is?
Fantastic story and, again, oneof the most viral things, and I
think we're just going to havea rehash of that.
I think the Bigfoot thing, Ithink people are getting tired
of it and currently I haven'theard much word lately, but
(19:27):
rumor has it there's anotherbody that's going to be turning
up in New York State pretty soon.
That's going to be another hoax, don't worry, it's going to be
another hoax, just like theGeorgia Bigfoot hoax back in
2008 turned out to be a hoax.
They had September 1st, theyhad a 2008,.
(19:47):
They had a press conferencethat fell apart very quickly
when they were just kind ofspinning their wheels.
It was just snake oil salesmenand people were walking out of
that press conference.
It was pretty bad and then itjust fell apart right after that
.
And this one's going to be thesame.
But we're I think people aregetting tired of that the hoax.
But people are are will getexcited when these other things
(20:11):
like the montauk monster we havestrange creatures found
somewhere.
Those stories tend to get a lotof traction.
So I think you know we're aboutdue for something like that.
But um me I.
I think people need to look atthe the more of the out of place
creatures like the alligators.
Alligator sightings arehappening all over the east
coast, but they're not findingtheir way on their own.
(20:34):
They're being deposited bypeople.
So that's why people don'treally hardcore cryptozoologists
don't like that.
They won't talk about becausepeople we put them there, but
it's an interesting theory orinteresting story because so
many of them are being found andit's only a matter of time
until somebody gets injured ormaybe even killed by an
alligator let loose by somebody.
I think that deserves someattention or some study.
(20:57):
But as far as the field goinganywhere, I just think it's the
same old thing year in, year out.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Gosh.
I remember when that happened,the hysteria that surrounded
that Montauk monster, so that'sa fascinating story.
And you're right, it had allthe ingredients to go viral.
It wasn't just the mysteryitself.
It also tapped into governmentdistrust, conspiracy theories.
All of it caused it really tosnowball into a larger-than-life
(21:26):
controversy.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yep, all from an article in a local Long Island
newspaper and a black and whitephoto.
And then the body disappearedand the stories changed and, yes
, the conspiracy theory whichwas introduced in the article
about the animal testingfacility.
And, yeah, you're right, animaltesting facility.
And yeah, you're right, itchecked every box and everybody
(21:47):
was, oh my gosh, it was so viral, it was just like you said.
It snowballed out of controland it lasted quite a while and
every time I thought it would goaway, it's ugly head came back
up again.
No pun intended.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Absolutely.
And finally, for thoselistening who are fascinated by
the unknown, who maybe want tochase it the way that you have,
what advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So the thing that I like to tell people and I don't
do as much of it anymore becauseI talk about just cryptids, but
when I had my book Handbook tothe Amateur Cryptid Zoologist, I
talked a lot about what stepsshould you take to get into this
field.
You don't have to follow myfootsteps.
I took the long way to get here, but I tell people.
I think the most importantthing, especially for young
(22:33):
people, is to learn what isnormal.
Learn what's in your backyard,learn what's in the forest,
learn what normal animals soundlike in various conditions.
What does a braying fox soundlike?
What does a coyote sound likeat 10 o'clock, at midnight, at
four in the morning, when theircalls change different times of
(22:54):
the year?
What do these things sound likeout there?
And if you can learn all that,what do barred owls sound like?
What do barn owls sound like?
What do screech owls sound like?
What do all these animals soundlike?
What kind of sign do they leavebehind?
Once you learn what's normal,then you can worry about what's
abnormal or what's potentiallyparanormal, because if you don't
know what you're looking for orlooking at, how can you find
(23:16):
what's different?
You have to know.
You know if you know the shoemanufacturers that make those
foot glove kind of shoes andyou've ever seen those.
But it could be really true.
If you don't understand hownature works, is that the other
(23:36):
thing?
How prints can become larger,especially in wintertime or when
it rains.
A mud track can become largerdue to washout a certain way.
If you don't understand howthat works, that works against
you and it can fool you as aresearcher.
So the more you can understandabout nature, animals and the
way, especially, water works,water is very, very important.
(23:58):
Water shapes everything, um.
So if you can understand whatwater has an effect on the
landscape and prints and tracksand things, you're already on
your way.
And don't worry aboutcryptozoology, study, biology,
study regular animals and you'lleventually get there.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So learn about zoology before you worry about
cryptozoology.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Correct, because if you don't know what's already
out there, how are we going tofigure out these weird ones?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
don't know what's already out there.
How are we going to figure outthese weird ones Before?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
we let you go.
Where can listeners findEastern Cryptids if they want to
dive deeper?
Eastern Cryptids is availableon the Big River website,
amazoncom.
It's also through my website atbriandparsonscom that's Brian
with an I, so Brian D Parsonscom.
You can find all my appearanceinformation there Um my current
projects.
All my links to all my booksare there for to go to Amazon as
(24:54):
well, and through Lulu, whichis my um self-publishing website
as well.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Okay, great, and actually you just covered what I
was just going to follow upwith.
That is that if someone wantedto follow your work or keep up
with any talks or appearancesthat you've got coming, I was
going to ask where should theygo, but it probably your website
or even social media would.
Would be a good place to start,right.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Correct All my social media links.
I usually only hang out onFacebook and Instagram.
Yeah, those links are alsothrough my website,
BrianDParsonscom.
Great.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Great, great.
Dr Parsons, thank you again forthis fascinating conversation.
Your insights into folklore,research and the enduring pull
of the unknown have given us alot to think about.
Really appreciate you takingthe time to speak with us today.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
And I thank you for having me on Again.
I'm a big fan of the show andno pressure in me being the
first guest on here or anything,but hopefully this goes well
and people enjoy this contentand that that fuels you to get
other uh other guests on theshow as well.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well, I really hope so and thank you so much, and,
if you're open to it, I wouldlove to have you back for some
more conversation in the futureas well.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, I think we just scratched the surface, so I'd
be completely up for that.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That's terrific.
Thank you so much.
Well, dr Parsons, once again Ireally appreciate you speaking
with me.
Have a great evening.
Thank you very much, and thatconcludes part two of our
conversation with Dr Brian DParsons.
We've traced the threads fromancient belief to modern mystery
(26:28):
and explored the delicatebalance between science and the
stories we tell.
But remember the world stillholds shadows where the unknown
hides, waiting for those justbrave enough to seek it.
If today's journey into theunexplained sparked your
curiosity, be sure to followState of the Unknown wherever
(26:49):
you listen, and share thisepisode with a fellow explorer.
And if you enjoyed what youheard, your review helps more
truth seekers find their way tous.
Until next time, keep chasingthe stories, questioning the
shadows and following the trailinto the state of the unknown.
Last time on State of the Unknown, we sat down with
Dr Brian D Parsons, researcher,investigator and author of
Eastern Cryptids.
We explored the roots ofAmerica's strangest legends and
why these creatures refuse tovanish from our folklore.
If you missed part one, go backand start there.
(00:23):
This one picks up right in themiddle of the mystery, and today
we pick up right where we leftoff, diving deeper into the
sightings, the theories and thequestions that might never be
answered.
I'm your host, robert Barber.
This is part two of ourconversation and this is State
(00:46):
of the Unknown.
Welcome back, dr Parsons.
Let's shift from the biggerpicture to the creatures
themselves.
Out of all the cryptids inEastern Cryptidsids, is there
one that stands out to you asyour personal favorite, and not
(01:07):
just the one that you mightbelieve in the most, but the one
that fascinates you?
Maybe it's the weirdest story,the most persistent folklore, or
just the one that refuses tolet go one story that really
jumps out to me that I reallyenjoyed researching.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I didn't realize like all the uh, the ebbs and tides
and the highs and lows was withthe murfreesboro mud monster in
illinois.
So this one.
Several different peopleclaimed they see and hear this
creature.
There were footprints leftbehind that aren't human
footprints.
They're long and thin.
These kids at a park they'dseen it.
And then another kid in hisbackyard saw it.
(01:44):
His parents didn't believe him,but then the they'd seen it.
And then another kid in hisbackyard saw it.
His parents didn't believe him,but then the neighbor had seen
it.
They brought all these police,the whole entire police force,
out there looking for this thing.
They had search dogs thatpicked up on a scent.
They found this black goo thatthey never were able to identify
.
They followed this descent intoa barn and the dog refused to
go in there.
You, you hear that a milliontimes.
But all the weird stuff thathappened, all the interviews and
(02:07):
all the strange stuff.
It sounds just like any othercryptid story.
However, the weird thing aboutit is the Murfreesboro Police
Department.
If you go to their website,they have on a PDF file all of
the interviews, all of thereports, photographs, file, all
of the interviews, all of thereports, photographs a lot of
(02:29):
it's fan mail, but they have allthe information ever gathered
about that case for anyone tolook at.
And that's the only case inthis book that I've ever seen
that the police has madepublicly available for anyone to
go and look at.
And I just found thatfascinating and to just read
through that, which made writingthis a whole heck of a lot
easier, because there it is,there's a whole pile of
information.
If everybody did that, you know, somebody would have already
(02:51):
written this book probably 20times.
But I just found that story Imean the story itself wasn't
overly fascinating.
It was again very similar toyou know, just enough data to
not really find anythingcredible.
And the stories themselves areincredible of seeing this
creature and people fearing fortheir lives and running through
(03:14):
the backyard.
There's a lot of stories thatare very similar to that, but
the fact that all thatinformation is readily available
to the public I find reallyfascinating as a researcher
especially Interesting, so Iwant to shift gears.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So let's talk about Sasquatch.
You brought it up, so I'm goingto bring it up again.
It's almost a cultural icon atthis point America's flagship
cryptid With so many sightings,hoaxes, theories and media
portrayals.
What's your personal take?
Do you think there's somethingreal there and if so, what is?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Sasquatch.
So there's a lot of camps ofthought and it's in the cryptid
field you have with, especially,bigfoot.
I almost wish my dream, if Icould have things any way I
wanted with cryptozoology, wouldbe to actually remove Bigfoot
from cryptozoology and have itsown field called Bigfootology,
(04:10):
because it's so dominating.
Like you said, it's theflagship, he's the big guy.
Bigfoot is so big itovershadows all these no pun
intended all these othercreatures.
But what's cool to me is,granted, we've had schools of
thought for a long time, peopleof the gigantopithecus thing.
That's been around for a longtime, even the interdimensional
(04:31):
folks.
That's been around for about 20, 30 years, since the chaos
theory which was made famous byIan Malcolm in the Jurassic Park
, Michael Crichton novel andsubsequent movies which with
chaos theory, and then we getinto string theory and now we're
in the multiverse theory.
So you know, being in the ghostfield, you kind of have to if
(04:52):
you want to be taken somewhatseriously.
You have to understand physics.
But it's weird to hear, likebigfoot, people talking about
interdimensional creatures andstuff, like you guys know and
and they're all like, they allsay the same thing, like this is
this is, uh, theoretical,there's, there's working models.
I was like no, there's not.
Like this is not, this is notreally happening.
(05:13):
There's no interdimensionalanything like this.
It's all hypotheses, like thisisn't like really happening.
But they they're under thisimpression that we know that
this happens and we're watchingit or whatever.
But it's not.
But that camp has been aroundfor a while and it seems like
it's getting a little strongerand I wonder why, when you have
(05:34):
movies and TV shows that arelazily, hastily written using
intradimensional characters, youcan kill one off and bring one
off from Earth-388, and you'reall set.
But it's lazy writing.
I can't stand movies and showslike that.
It's boring.
Anyway, and I think that's kindof where we're at with
cryptozoology in the Bigfootfield, because hey, these
(05:55):
creatures are coming in and out,these witnesses will see it,
and then it's gone the nextsecond we're following these
tracks and then they're gone.
I mean it's nature, thesetracks and they're gone.
I mean it's nature.
Have you ever followed a deerand a deer disappears?
Does it mean it's goinginterdimensional?
No, they run away and they hide, they camouflage themselves.
Deer prints change as elevationchanges, you get away from um
lakes and rivers, the watertable changes and you're not
(06:16):
going to have this many prints.
The grass changes and the angleof the sun everything affects a
print in different ways.
Prints disappear within days oreven hours.
Sometimes you know if it's inthe grass the grass is going to
pop back up.
Mud dries Mud.
When it rains, it washes out,you know, reanimates.
This isn't like permanent.
This isn't your attic whereeverything's like a museum.
(06:38):
It stays the same for decades.
But you know, then you have theflesh and bullet crew and I
guess I would put myself in that, but I don't know how that
works and I don't claim to knowhow that works.
I'm not a gigantopithecusperson, because I don't think,
knowing what a gigantopithecusis and it wasn't it doesn't make
any sense.
Um, this would have to besomething completely different.
(07:00):
But I can't, there's no way Ican, I can't explain it because
it doesn't make sense.
You know we'd have to find someother thing.
Between neanderthal andholosapien there would have to
be some other missing link foundthat would kind of point us in
that direction.
And so far it hasn't happened.
And with the amount of so andthis is, people get mad when I,
(07:21):
when I play this role, butyou'll hear these people talk
and they'll say well, with thewith a large number of reports
all over the world.
There has to be Bigfoot,because so many people are
seeing them and so many peopleare reporting them.
Drop the mic, look at that.
Then my question is well, ifthere's so many reports, then
where's the evidence?
Where's the evidence?
(07:42):
Where's the lineage, if we haveall of these creatures all over
the place?
First of all, where's the bones?
Where's the evidence?
Where's the fossils?
We'd have to have fossils.
These things just didn't justappear here.
They would have to have evolved.
Second of all, if you have 500different types of Bigfoot all
over the world, yet they're alldifferent.
(08:02):
Some are tall, some are small,some are fat, some are thin,
some have four toes, some havethree toes, some have two toes,
some have five, some have largearms that hang below their knees
, some have hands that aremid-thigh, some, you know,
different colored fur.
If all all these things aretrue, we have such a variation.
(08:26):
That doesn't make sense either.
You know, granted, humans we'revery diverse.
To another creature, we're allthe same thing, but these
creatures are so various whenyou're talking about them, I
just can't make any sense of it.
But if I had to, if I had tosay, I would say that they're
flesh and blood.
However, to quote one of myfavorite scientists, neil
(08:46):
degrasse tyson I he said this onstar talk and it totally made
sense to me.
This is exactly how I felt andI didn't realize it until he
said it that my belief insomething, especially bigfoot
and a lot of these cryptids, isexactly equal to the amount of
data that supports it.
I think I said it pretty closeto how he said it.
I haven't really thought aboutit since.
(09:07):
I heard that about a week ago,but it's true.
People ask me do you believe inBigfoot?
I'm like well, I believe thatpeople believe in Bigfoot.
I believe that there issomething that people feel is
Bigfoot, but do I believe thatI'm going to run out there and
throw a net over a creature anddrag it in?
Then the answer is no.
(09:27):
I don't think we're ever goingto find a flesh and blood
creature.
However, bigfoot exists inculture, exists in folklore,
exists out there because webelieve in it.
It exists because we believe init.
And then, if you're going toask me that way, then absolutely
100%.
I believe, absolutely 100.
I believe it's bigfoot becauseit's.
It's there, it's already there,it's ingrained in our culture.
(09:49):
So I can't not believe in itbecause it's there, but do I do?
I think we're ever going tofind one.
I almost hope we don't, becausethat's going to ruin, it's
going to burst that bubble, it'sgoing to change everything.
And I think a lot of researchersfeel that same way.
The ones that are like I'vebeen looking for a big for my
whole life.
I never had a sighting.
It's like what would you do ifyou did?
Like would that change anything?
(10:10):
I'm like, oh no, and then you.
Then they think about it likeyou gosh, yeah, I don't want to
find one now.
Thanks for telling me that,because it would change
everything.
It would change yourperspective.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's a really interesting way of looking at
things, and I can completely seewhat you're talking about there
.
Now we've been talking abouthow much of this connects to
legend and folklore.
Do you think these stories filla certain void in modern life?
Maybe that's why so many peopleare drawn to believing in
something ancient or primal thatscience or society no longer
(10:43):
provides.
In the past, whether in NativeAmerican traditions or even
further back, a lot of legendsemerged as ways to explain the
unknown.
Now, with modern science and amore advanced society, there's a
lot less mystery.
Do you think that changeaffects how people connect to
(11:04):
these legends today?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you look at the Greeks,you know they had Zeus and they
had.
You know all these gods and youknow, I mean, granted, we have
Thor nowadays, but you know allthese ancient cultures, these,
these stories to pass down ofthese gods which explain things
and gave them perspective on theworld and gave them, um, that
(11:26):
feeling of a place on thisplanet and a reason for existing
and, um, you know that, uh,pathway to, you know, the other
world, depending upon theculture.
You know the egyptians or thegreek or the romans or whom
whomever you know, had all thesedifferent, different ideas.
And of course, you know not tobash religion.
(11:46):
But here comes christianity,riding across the country,
killing in the name of andtrying to spread their word that
we're the best, we're the,we're what you need to believe
in, and unfortunately, like that, dominates the landscape.
Now, you know we have a lot ofdifferent religions, but
Christianity, catholicism,pretty much dominate the
(12:07):
landscape.
But there's other outliers thatkind of believe different
things.
So people are less likely tobelieve in those things, to
change their thoughts and ideas.
But I think now we don't havethose as much stories and of
course, you know, religionsbecome a part of capitalism.
You know they have theirbusiness and it's, uh, taking
(12:28):
the money and it's, you know,having the pastor driving the
ferrari around.
I could say all these things.
I'm a reverend, I belong to achurch, so I could say those
things.
Things have changed when you'retalking about religion and
these stories and the belief.
We don't have those thingsanymore.
And it's like you said, we dohave science to latch onto, but
(12:48):
I think a lot of people thatbelieve in this stuff don't
really have a firm grasp onscience anyway, which is not to
be mean, that's just how it is.
Some people just don't care,like I don't care about math
anymore.
I gotta calculate.
What the heck do I need to knowabout math anymore, except for
statistics, of course, being inresearch.
But you know, we we have tohave something to grasp, we have
(13:09):
to have something to get usthrough our day, we have to have
something to hold our interestor to think that there's
something beyond what we know.
And this is it, this.
You either believe in ghosts,you believe in cryptids or you
believe in ufos.
Some people believe in allthree, but it's.
It's interesting how differentgroups of people believe in
(13:29):
different things like this thatare pseudo-scientific and
scientists don't like that atall, but it's, it's part of
culture, it's part of somethingbeyond what we know, and it's
again it's that you almost hopewe don't find anything, because
then it's going to ruin all thatbelief.
Because, oh, now it's truth,it's not just you know something
(13:50):
that I want to believe in, it'snow it's true.
Which would change it, it wouldchange the concept.
I think, um, but yeah, I, Ithink it's.
It's firmly rooted in you know,the, you know, going back
thousands of years and different, different, uh, beliefs.
You know, the mayans had theirs, the egyptians had theirs, the
(14:10):
greeks and the romans, everybodyhad their belief systems.
And you know, granted, you knowwe give, bigfoot's got
superpowers, you know, just likegods and goddesses of their day
.
You know, mothman can fly.
He's like 300 pounds, but hecan fly around the sky.
I don't know how, but okay, youknow bigfoot can throw trees.
Um, yeah, I think it fills a gap, it fills a void.
(14:31):
Um, people who are people whoare religious aren't necessarily
spiritual, if that makes sense.
So some people fill the gapsagain with the ghost field, I
think with cryptozoology as well.
I meet a lot of people thatbelieve in this stuff so much
that they cry when they talkabout it.
It fills that void, it fillsthat gap of spirituality that
they need something like that toget them through their day and
(14:54):
their life.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
I'm not bashing those people.
I think it's fantastic that youbelieve in something at all,
because some people don'tbelieve in anything.
And it's good to have thatbelief, as long as you don't
take it too far.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You've got a point there.
Throughout history, from eventslike the Crusades to countless
other conflicts, millions ofpeople have lost their lives
because of belief.
Now, as someone who has been inthis field for decades, what do
you think is next forcryptozoology?
Are we moving toward a morescientific, data-driven era, or
(15:35):
is the future more aboutfolklore, cultural storytelling
and reinterpreting the past?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
so, like I, I mentioned before that mid-1940s,
when the term was coined byibert t sanderson not bernard
hoovemans, but he, he also cameup with it.
You know, we had the idea ofexploration, of looking for
these creatures, of documentingthese sightings, but it's it's
kind of become more ofdocumentation, it's become more
of the folklore and I don'treally see us getting out of
(16:06):
that.
I see more of the same, youknow.
And again, when you definecryptozoology through the eyes
of science, they poo-poo it andthey say, oh, it's pseudoscience
, they haven't really come upwith anything new, which is true
.
It's like the ghost field.
It's been the same stuff forover 140 years now.
(16:26):
Cryptozoology hasn't reallyevolved, it hasn't really come
anywhere, and I know there's alot of people that are probably
punching their car radios orthey're throwing their phones
across the room right now.
It's understandable and it'sfrustrating.
Trust me, like I'm I want thisto.
I would like to see this fieldget better and grow and and find
things and discover things, butit's just, it's just not.
(16:48):
It's just not what it does.
Cryptozoology is a belief system.
It's not a scientific field,it's not.
It's not a a segment of zoology, it's not even a part of um,
folklore, you know, uh, folklorestudies or anything like that.
It's, it's, it's on its own,it's a belief system, so it's
not going to evolve.
You know, we can try as wemight, um, and there's going to
(17:10):
be plenty of people that aregoing to put themselves out
there and try to create newtechnology to find bigfoot and,
um, you know, maybe radarsystems to find these
thunderbirds flying around.
You know, I don't know, but Idon't see a lot of that
happening.
We haven't seen a lot of thathappen in the last 20, 30 years.
Uh, there's been some peoplethat have tried, you know,
(17:33):
drones and other tech, butreally it's funny because they
they use this tech to to uh tryto find bigfoot and all these
other creatures.
They ended up trying, theyended up using it more now for
finding missing persons in thewoods, which is fantastic.
It's almost like the spaceprogram.
You know, if we wouldn't, wewouldn't try to go to space, we
(17:53):
wouldn't invent, you know, zerogravity pens and all these other
things that that are fantastic.
But anyway, yeah, I, I don't, Idon't really see the field
growing or evolving.
I think it's just more of thesame, just a more modern version
, if that makes sense.
So things like the montaukmonster, misinterpretation of of
(18:14):
creatures I guess the montaukmonster was one, too, that I
should have mentioned.
I really loved that because itwas one of the most viral
stories of 2008.
It was just, yeah, it was aphotograph of a dead raccoon, of
dead, bloated, burnt raccoonthat people just argued for
hours on, and in the book I saidanybody with a thumb had an
opinion, which was true, and itwas.
(18:37):
To me, that was veryentertaining.
I love that because people areso passionate about that and
opinionated and firm in theirfirm in their grasp and what was
happening.
And then, you know, the truthcame out and by then, everybody
moved on.
Nobody cared that it was was apoor, tortured raccoon that had
been given a Viking funeral,basically, and it was what Jeff
(19:02):
Korn said it was.
He knows what he's talkingabout.
But, yeah, everybody, like allthese famous biologists, came
out of the woodwork and wereasked what do you think?
The Montauk monster is?
Fantastic story and, again, oneof the most viral things, and I
think we're just going to havea rehash of that.
I think the Bigfoot thing, Ithink people are getting tired
of it and currently I haven'theard much word lately, but
(19:27):
rumor has it there's anotherbody that's going to be turning
up in New York State pretty soon.
That's going to be another hoax, don't worry, it's going to be
another hoax, just like theGeorgia Bigfoot hoax back in
2008 turned out to be a hoax.
They had September 1st, theyhad a 2008,.
(19:47):
They had a press conferencethat fell apart very quickly
when they were just kind ofspinning their wheels.
It was just snake oil salesmenand people were walking out of
that press conference.
It was pretty bad and then itjust fell apart right after that
.
And this one's going to be thesame.
But we're I think people aregetting tired of that the hoax.
But people are are will getexcited when these other things
(20:11):
like the montauk monster we havestrange creatures found
somewhere.
Those stories tend to get a lotof traction.
So I think you know we're aboutdue for something like that.
But um me I.
I think people need to look atthe the more of the out of place
creatures like the alligators.
Alligator sightings arehappening all over the east
coast, but they're not findingtheir way on their own.
(20:34):
They're being deposited bypeople.
So that's why people don'treally hardcore cryptozoologists
don't like that.
They won't talk about becausepeople we put them there, but
it's an interesting theory orinteresting story because so
many of them are being found andit's only a matter of time
until somebody gets injured ormaybe even killed by an
alligator let loose by somebody.
I think that deserves someattention or some study.
(20:57):
But as far as the field goinganywhere, I just think it's the
same old thing year in, year out.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Gosh.
I remember when that happened,the hysteria that surrounded
that Montauk monster, so that'sa fascinating story.
And you're right, it had allthe ingredients to go viral.
It wasn't just the mysteryitself.
It also tapped into governmentdistrust, conspiracy theories.
All of it caused it really tosnowball into a larger-than-life
(21:26):
controversy.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yep, all from an article in a local Long Island
newspaper and a black and whitephoto.
And then the body disappearedand the stories changed and, yes
, the conspiracy theory whichwas introduced in the article
about the animal testingfacility.
And, yeah, you're right, animaltesting facility.
And yeah, you're right, itchecked every box and everybody
(21:47):
was, oh my gosh, it was so viral, it was just like you said.
It snowballed out of controland it lasted quite a while and
every time I thought it would goaway, it's ugly head came back
up again.
No pun intended.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Absolutely.
And finally, for thoselistening who are fascinated by
the unknown, who maybe want tochase it the way that you have,
what advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So the thing that I like to tell people and I don't
do as much of it anymore becauseI talk about just cryptids, but
when I had my book Handbook tothe Amateur Cryptid Zoologist, I
talked a lot about what stepsshould you take to get into this
field.
You don't have to follow myfootsteps.
I took the long way to get here, but I tell people.
I think the most importantthing, especially for young
(22:33):
people, is to learn what isnormal.
Learn what's in your backyard,learn what's in the forest,
learn what normal animals soundlike in various conditions.
What does a braying fox soundlike?
What does a coyote sound likeat 10 o'clock, at midnight, at
four in the morning, when theircalls change different times of
(22:54):
the year?
What do these things sound likeout there?
And if you can learn all that,what do barred owls sound like?
What do barn owls sound like?
What do screech owls sound like?
What do all these animals soundlike?
What kind of sign do they leavebehind?
Once you learn what's normal,then you can worry about what's
abnormal or what's potentiallyparanormal, because if you don't
know what you're looking for orlooking at, how can you find
(23:16):
what's different?
You have to know.
You know if you know the shoemanufacturers that make those
foot glove kind of shoes andyou've ever seen those.
But it could be really true.
If you don't understand hownature works, is that the other
(23:36):
thing?
How prints can become larger,especially in wintertime or when
it rains.
A mud track can become largerdue to washout a certain way.
If you don't understand howthat works, that works against
you and it can fool you as aresearcher.
So the more you can understandabout nature, animals and the
way, especially, water works,water is very, very important.
(23:58):
Water shapes everything, um.
So if you can understand whatwater has an effect on the
landscape and prints and tracksand things, you're already on
your way.
And don't worry aboutcryptozoology, study, biology,
study regular animals and you'lleventually get there.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So learn about zoology before you worry about
cryptozoology.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Correct, because if you don't know what's already
out there, how are we going tofigure out these weird ones?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
don't know what's already out there.
How are we going to figure outthese weird ones Before?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
we let you go.
Where can listeners findEastern Cryptids if they want to
dive deeper?
Eastern Cryptids is availableon the Big River website,
amazoncom.
It's also through my website atbriandparsonscom that's Brian
with an I, so Brian D Parsonscom.
You can find all my appearanceinformation there Um my current
projects.
All my links to all my booksare there for to go to Amazon as
(24:54):
well, and through Lulu, whichis my um self-publishing website
as well.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Okay, great, and actually you just covered what I
was just going to follow upwith.
That is that if someone wantedto follow your work or keep up
with any talks or appearancesthat you've got coming, I was
going to ask where should theygo, but it probably your website
or even social media would.
Would be a good place to start,right.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Correct All my social media links.
I usually only hang out onFacebook and Instagram.
Yeah, those links are alsothrough my website,
BrianDParsonscom.
Great.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Great, great.
Dr Parsons, thank you again forthis fascinating conversation.
Your insights into folklore,research and the enduring pull
of the unknown have given us alot to think about.
Really appreciate you takingthe time to speak with us today.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
And I thank you for having me on Again.
I'm a big fan of the show andno pressure in me being the
first guest on here or anything,but hopefully this goes well
and people enjoy this contentand that that fuels you to get
other uh other guests on theshow as well.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well, I really hope so and thank you so much, and,
if you're open to it, I wouldlove to have you back for some
more conversation in the futureas well.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, I think we just scratched the surface, so I'd
be completely up for that.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That's terrific.
Thank you so much.
Well, dr Parsons, once again Ireally appreciate you speaking
with me.
Have a great evening.
Thank you very much, and thatconcludes part two of our
conversation with Dr Brian DParsons.
We've traced the threads fromancient belief to modern mystery
(26:28):
and explored the delicatebalance between science and the
stories we tell.
But remember the world stillholds shadows where the unknown
hides, waiting for those justbrave enough to seek it.
If today's journey into theunexplained sparked your
curiosity, be sure to followState of the Unknown wherever
(26:49):
you listen, and share thisepisode with a fellow explorer.
And if you enjoyed what youheard, your review helps more
truth seekers find their way tous.
Until next time, keep chasingthe stories, questioning the
shadows and following the trailinto the state of the unknown.
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