February 13, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode we talk to one of Stocksbridge's greatest ever strikers and most enigmatic figures, Stefan Zoll.
We talk to him not only about his time with Stocksbridge but also the conspiracy theories made about him when he played for Al-Hilal in Sudan, why he felt different to many other footballers and his love for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Steel's Talk with me your host Adam Orfra.
(00:26):
I just want to apologise for the long wait for a new episode, we had a few things we
wanted to improve on from the last few and it just took us some time to get some new
technical details in place but everything is ready now and trust me it has been worth
the wait.
That's because today's guest is Stefan Zoll, one of Stocksburgers best ever strikers and
probably most enigmatic figures.
(00:47):
Today he talks to me not just about his time with the Steel's but also the conspiracy theories
about him when he played in Sudan, why he felt he was different to other footballers
and his love for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
So let's get on with it and welcome Stefan Zoll to the show.
So thank you very much Stefan for joining us today and my first question has to be what
(01:10):
country am I talking to in right now because you seem to always be in some other brilliant
place in the world.
Well I actually recently moved back to England after many years away actually it was almost
15 years I spent in the Middle East in one country or another but the vast majority of
the past, I mean since 2008 it was I was in Saudi Arabia living working over there and
(01:34):
so it was about two years ago I returned back to England.
It's been a long time I'm just getting used to being back in England again.
So what is it like living in Saudi Arabia because it's a place where more and more people
seem to be going now, what is it, is it a huge culture shock if when you move there
or how different is it to live in here in the UK?
Well that's definitely an interesting story because when I first arrived in Saudi it wasn't
(02:00):
actually the first time I was there.
I first went in 2003 as part of a sports exchange program.
It was something I got connected into with my university and I went over as an ambassador
representing football from the UK.
(02:20):
Back then it was a very very different place to how it is now.
It was one of the most isolated countries in the world.
You could put it alongside pretty much North Korea and yeah it was North Korea, Saudi,
Iran they were it was basically like this.
These are pretty much the most isolated countries in the world when it would come to simply
(02:45):
being able to visit them and Saudi Arabia was no different then.
For example there were no tourist visas when I first arrived so you couldn't simply decide
you wanted to visit Saudi Arabia.
You would have to have a work visa or some kind of special invitation visa, business
visa or something like this.
So yeah in that respect you were going into the complete unknown.
(03:12):
So restrictions on the media for example.
There was very little known about what was actually happening inside of Saudi Arabia
other than by accounts from Saudis who had for example left for one reason or another
or had been travelling.
So yeah there was a huge difference in the way the country has changed since the days
(03:38):
that I arrived the early years and then the recent changes that we've seen there now where
you have major sporting events happening, you have massive boxing matches happening.
Just the whole change of society there has been very very rapid within the past 20 years.
So yeah huge changes.
(03:58):
Quite coincidentally before going into this podcast I actually ended up listening to quite
a few interviews with some of the footballers that have gone over there with the Saudi I
think Super League isn't it?
That's been getting bigger and bigger.
What would be your advice to any players that are going to move over there?
I mean obviously knowing what footballers are like and how can they better just do it
(04:20):
Saudi Arabia and make the most of the extra money that's on offer over there?
Yeah well it's as I said the changes that have happened in recent years mean that the
lifestyle there is not inhospitable for example to footballers in certain senses in terms
(04:40):
of the modernity of life, the way that you would go about your daily life.
It's definitely a lot different now than it used to be.
But then at the same time you don't have access to certain lifestyle elements that some footballers
might like to for example nightlife is very different.
(05:01):
There aren't really nightclubs as such you know if that were your thing for example.
Although I don't know it seems quite risky for most modern footballers to go out to nightclubs
these days.
But yeah it really depends on the type of lifestyle that you would be willing to live.
I think that's one of the big things.
If you like a life of luxury though for sure Saudi is a place where you can enjoy a very
(05:27):
luxurious lifestyle.
It isn't just Saudi Arabia that you have been to in your life it seems like you've gone
across the world.
You don't just pick the places that have package holidays from Hayes Travel.
Could you tell about why you go to all these unique places in the world rather than just
the beaten track?
My interest in travel started really from a young age because as you may know my father
(05:49):
was German and I would travel to see him in Germany when I was very young.
I remember going on a plane.
I must have been maybe five or six years old.
I was by myself.
I went as an unaccompanied minor.
I flew over to see my dad in Frankfurt.
So I was used to going to airports from like a very early age traveling by myself.
(06:13):
As strange as that is.
And so it gave me an interest in the world and I saw something a little bit different
than my hometown of Leeds which was where my mum was from.
That pushed on into my adult life when I became very interested in languages after my professional
football career ended.
(06:34):
I was thinking of studying a language so I could have the opportunity to travel to different
countries.
I whittled a choice down between Chinese, Japanese, Russian and Arabic.
I looked at all of those languages before applying to university to study and I ended
up deciding on Arabic.
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It seemed like the most politically relevant because I started that degree in 2002 which
was a year after September the 11th happened which was 2001.
So there was a lot of focus on the Middle East and the politics of the Middle East.
So Arabic seemed like a very pertinent language to study at the time and that effectively
(07:21):
connected me to the Arabic speaking world for the next 20 plus years essentially speaking.
So it took me to different countries.
I lived in Morocco for a year for example, I studied Arabic there.
I did volunteer work in Sudan for a period of time.
(07:41):
I cornered MMA fighters in Jordan.
I competed in Jiu Jitsu in Saudi Arabia.
I also went to Syria before the war so yeah kind of all over random Arabic speaking countries
I ended up visiting for one reason or another.
(08:03):
It was interesting.
I have some stories to tell.
Yes and one of those stories I'm going to press on because otherwise I've got to give
my journalism degree back to the university because what happened in Syria?
Well yeah it was an interesting story.
It was a very very tense time politically in the world because it was the year of the
(08:26):
7-7 bombings in the UK so I think and the ongoing invasion of Iraq.
So there were a lot of global tensions and Syria was again a very isolated country in
the world with the dictatorship that was in place there.
It was a very oppressive country and very few foreigners were really able to live freely
(08:51):
there and go around.
It was more accessible in Saudi Arabia for example as you could get tourist visas but
it was still a country that had dangerous elements and dangerous aspects to it.
I actually went to study Arabic at an institute there where many foreigners were being taught
(09:15):
and the government I'd heard before visiting that the government had a habit of picking
up foreign nationals arresting them without charge holding them for indefinite periods
of time.
But I kind of always assumed that this was mainly the people from Arab countries or not
(09:37):
necessarily European visitors or Western visitors so to speak but unfortunately that wasn't
the case in my case and I was picked up by the secret police from an apartment where
I was studying and they came with Kalashnikovs, plain clothes.
I thought I was being kidnapped to start off with so and at that time I'm not sure how
(10:04):
if you remember these things there were some very difficult times happening in Iraq with
foreign nationals being kidnapped and treated in the most heinous ways so I feared that
I may endure a similar fate.
I was taken to a police station it was actually the home of the secret police they were very
(10:27):
notorious for torturing and disappearing citizens of Syria and many many citizens of other Arab
countries.
This was standard practice and it was always something people understood happened but because
Syria was such an isolated country there was really there was no response from the international
(10:50):
community when these things happened because unless it was a Western and it was often people
would turn a blind eye to these type of things.
So yeah they took me to this secret police the home of the secret police it was in a
suburb of Damascus they held me in a police station for three days.
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I witnessed with my own eyes the torture of Syrian nationals what I presumed were Syrian
nationals from their appearance and the dialect that I heard them speaking.
It was a super traumatic time I was interrogated relentlessly for that period of time but I
(11:34):
think it was my British passport that eventually saved me because they released me unceremoniously
dumping me onto the street after three days of interrogation.
So yeah I think just having my British passport at that time was sufficient enough to just
keep me safe but there are many other people that have disappeared indefinitely after visiting
(11:58):
such places.
So I have to consider myself lucky on that adventure.
Just from when I read about this story before this was in 2005 so were you was this in the
summer in between playing for Stocksbridge Park Steeles?
It was probably yes probably.
So while all the other lads were probably out in Mallorca and stuff you were in Syria
(12:19):
having this awful traumatic experience did you tell any of it when you got back to training?
No no no no there's no these are not I guess these are not changing room stories it's not
the traditional football banter.
I never lived the traditional football banter type of lifestyle you know I was always amazed
(12:39):
at the banter of the guys and the way it was it was a funny thing but I don't know I just
I was always doing something different or engaged in my mind and another place so yeah
it wasn't a story that I shared widely actually.
But when you were in these trips Rod you did play some football I saw you played for Al
(13:01):
Halal in Sudan which for our listeners that is the biggest club in Sudan they play in
the African Champions League and also at Maghreb of Fez in Morocco that stadium's up for consideration
for the World Cup in 2030.
What's it like playing in Africa?
That was an incredible experience actually when I went to Sudan it was just that was
(13:24):
phenomenal.
Well first of all you have to deal with playing in a heat that is the type of heat you can't
possibly imagine but it was I can't even begin to describe the experience it was really wonderful.
Different from Stocksbridge that heat.
Yeah absolutely I'm not like those cold rainy nights up in Stocksbridge it was a different
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ball game for sure.
Of course you have different types of pitches the condition was the condition of the pitches
was less than optimal a lot of the time but there were some incredibly skillful players
there and a love for football is something universal of course you find that in every
part of the world and there was a similar experience in Morocco I actually started playing
(14:06):
street football whilst I was there in Morocco and I would play some incredible like five
a side pick up games and random parts of the city with kids who were just obsessed with
football who played day and night day and night and I had a great time there eventually
jumped in with a another I played there for it was only a few weeks actually because I
(14:31):
was trying to fit it in around my studies but I was playing with a first team had some
training sessions there and they were incredibly skillful as well in Morocco there were some
incredible players there it's yeah of course football is the global language it connects
people and so many different parts of the world so it's great to see and experience
those.
(14:52):
What were the atmospheres like that because I've seen some of the clips of Africa and
that seems to be where Europeans have the most experience and they're brilliant and
Moroccan football in particular I've seen the Casablanca Derby footage and that just
looks insane was it were the atmosphere just brilliant when you were there?
Of course of course yeah football is something huge in those countries it's it unifies people
(15:15):
it gives them something special to focus upon as well and entertainment is very different
there as well there aren't there isn't a huge for example theatre or cinema culture there
people don't really have much to do outside of sporting events and in particular football
so it's easy to see why football gains so much attention in those type of countries
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football is of course huge amazing amazing atmospheres.
And while you were at Al-Hilal what was this conspiracy theory that started about you?
Yeah this was great there was a rival team in so the city I was staying in was called
Khartoum and there was a rival team called Itihad and they wanted to they didn't want
(16:06):
Al-Hilal to have the prestige of having a foreign player playing for them because they
had no European players playing for them at the time so they were trying to find a way
of discrediting me whilst playing for them and they came up with this story because I
spoke some Arabic at the time actually was I think that was 2003 so I was only in the
(16:28):
second year of my Arabic degree so my Arabic was pretty bad at that time you know but they
came up with the story that I was actually an albino Sudanese guy and that I just was
speaking Arabic and they just found me and were trying to pass me off as this European
(16:51):
player whereas you know I wasn't really a European player so that was actually a published
story in the newspaper I wish I still had it I saw it was it was really hilarious.
Did that get any traction did anyone actually believe that or did you have to deal with
that as a problem people coming up to you saying you're not really European?
(17:12):
Well the thing is remember this was 2003 so you didn't have mobile phone there was no
internet there was nothing so like people would read this in the newspaper and you know
they would have some credence right they would think okay maybe he is a Sudanese albino you
know.
It's just absolutely mad this is a personal love of mine all this football that's happening
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in countries you don't think of usually I listen to a lot of podcasts on it and it's
just fascinating to hear all these stories from the countries again you don't hear much
and you're great you can actually watch it on your phone now there's an app for watching
football in Sudan.
Yeah FIFA Plus by the way for anyone who is interested.
But we'll move on to more familiar grounds onto Stocksbridge itself how did the move
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to Stocksbridge come about?
You know it's a little bit hazy to be honest you're talking quite a few years ago I as
I mentioned to you I played professionally I mean I left school at 16 I signed for Barnsley
and the YTS system I had spells at Tottenham Hotspur I was in the reserves at Tottenham
during the time.
(18:17):
Christian Gross was the manager they had Jurgen Klinsman playing up front and so I had six
months spell at Tottenham then I also had a spell at Crystal Palace as a youth in the
reserves Terry Venables was the manager at the time and I felt like I was getting to
the point where I was getting close to making a first team appearance.
(18:40):
I got an opportunity to go out and play in the French second division when I was 19 years
old so I signed a year contract with Dunkirk played a year there it didn't really go how
I planned I came back and back to the UK when I was 20 years old and I couldn't get back
into professional football at that time as there were many players similar to me you
(19:02):
know there are so many players each year that just they kind of end up filtering into non-league
and that's what happened to me I just filtered into non-league football eventually ended
up at Stocksbridge I think I was probably playing at a maybe Pickering before then it
was I played at a few non-league clubs in the Yorkshire area because my mum is from
(19:24):
Leeds I had a small stint at Whitby but I think for sure I did my best work at Stocksbridge
again I can't remember exactly how it came about just Pete got in touch with me said
come on by come and have a look at the ground and sign for us so yes of course when I saw
the ground I was I was actually very impressed because it's quite rare that you find good
(19:49):
quality pitches in non-league at those type of levels and Stocksbridge their pitch was
certainly better than many of the other grounds and in the league at that level so yeah I
thought I would give it a go and see how it was at Stocksbridge and definitely I had some
of the best best years of my non-league life there.
(20:11):
Yeah so we obviously we talked to Peter Rinkevich a bit back and he raves about you says you
were one of his best players. When you went into the dressing room and saw the other team
what would the players that you remember particularly from that time and what did you think of the
rest of the team?
Well Pete had a really great team at that time I think it was even he during my period
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there even it just started to he just made some really amazing signings and he managed
to really gel the group of players that they had I can't actually remember many of the
names but Stephen Hawes honestly I can't recall many names but there were some really really
great players of just so much quality and I know we had a really good team at the time
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and we had a lot of success and the players were really great it's quite rare that you
see that at non-league level such a collection of good players together. I think we could
have just done more we just maybe it's always difficult I think for non-league clubs to
keep players in at a semi-professional level it's difficult to just keep teams together
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I think but Pete did a great job during that time and he got together just a group of really
great players and I had so many great memories playing there.
Well you did play alongside our current management team of Ian Richards and Andy Ring do you
have any particular members of them? I think Andy Ring's copied your style in terms of
your hair and the beard and everything else.
(21:43):
Yes yeah Andy Ring of course yeah I remember Andy of course and Andy was my strike partner
for much of the time as well maybe my final season or one of the seasons I remember yeah
so he was a big strong classic striker so he was quite a good compliment for me to play
with as well I enjoyed playing with him yeah I just like to get the ball and just take
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everybody on and score you know I wanted to score beautiful goals that was my that was
what gave me the most pleasure scoring beautiful goals.
Yeah and on that I've been asking around a lot of the people who were there about their
memories of you and Peter Rinkevich mentioned this particular one as well in the podcast a
(22:29):
few episodes ago there was a goal against Marine this is it's been brought up a few times this one
this is the one where apparently the ball got cleared to you after a corner already down to
10 man because Duncan Richards has been sent off and you've gone past a few plays and scored to
secure to beat Marine in the semi-final of the league cup and get to the final and what
one of the biggest final stocks we've just ever been in what do you what do you remember of that?
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Oh I remember both both goals really well I knew it was a big game those were the type of games
that I wanted to play in because I always believed that I could play at a higher level and
I wanted to obviously I had played professionally I played at a high level and I still believed
that I could could make it at a high level it was just getting the opportunity was always
(23:18):
a challenge for a young player but that that game against Marine it was just a beautiful game
that's the second goal I remember the first goal I remember the second goal I remember the player
being sent off it was it was a great game it was a classic game and the history of Stocksbridge
for sure it was an honor to be part of it and scoring yeah the the second goal was amazing and
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I always made sure when when I scored the big goals I would go and celebrate with Pete you
know because I kind of I like to to make him happy I like to make the team happy I like to
score the goals for the team so yeah there's a beautiful moment I will never forget it for sure
Is there any other particular memories from play of Stockbridge that just you remember very fondly?
Certainly scoring some of the best goals I've ever scored I remember there was a few goals
(24:09):
particularly that I scored in front of my father my father was my my biggest supporter he'd always
helped me throughout my career he'd helped me in many different ways and supported me so
he would come over he was living in France for the remaining part of his life and
he would always make a great effort to come and watch me play so I managed to score some
(24:31):
really amazing goals in front of him I remember there was one against maybe Bishop Auckland I
think but it was them it was it was probably the best goal of my non-league career maybe
arguably better than the marine goal took the ball from inside our own penalty area I think and I
took it all the way and scored and and that was just beautiful to be able to score that in front
of my father and yeah that made me be very happy so but a lot of amazing moments playing different
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games and the highs and the lows of football just just the experience was experiences of a lifetime
for sure one thing also when I've been asking around about you is that one of the things that
came back consistently that you were not the typical footballer you were not the one who'd
be propping up racking more social club until eight o'clock like some of them if not
later what was it like trying to fit in with a lot of lads who did like propping up racking more
(25:22):
social club until eight o'clock if not later and how is it trying to get on with lads who obviously
very different to you I guess I never felt like a typical footballer in many respects I was always
interested in many different things outside of football I was I was a football fan of sorts but
for example I never supported a team certainly not into my not not not I didn't I was neither
(25:47):
really a lead supporter I wasn't a supporter for any team as such my dad my dad liked the German
teams he for example liked Bayern Munich but he was from Frankfurt he he loved to watch any any
German team he would watch but I didn't have a particular bias as such for my father and my
(26:09):
father for any team so it was a learning experience for me really being around footballers and the
mentality involved it was difficult at times because I I guess I didn't feel I was connecting
with with people and as such it was only really when I got into martial arts that I started to
(26:31):
see things a little bit differently about relationships with people and connecting with
people and understanding the human experience but yeah I never had any issues getting on with
the team I loved the humour the football banter was always something amazing and I had some great
(26:52):
experiences because this seemed to be something Peter Ringfitch wanted was this like team morale
boost in which he did do by making sure you couldn't leave the bar it seemed like a great
atmosphere in the team at the time was that the thing you enjoyed the most or was it just playing
on the pitch and scoring those fantastic goals of course the atmosphere was amazing there were some
real comedians in the team the team bus rides were ridiculous stories of all kinds of bizarre
(27:19):
nights out drinking women and so on various x-rated stories were the norm on the team bus
but yeah the the atmosphere was amazing but of course I loved the game I loved to play I
loved to score goals I loved to create kind of like an art from from football so obviously you
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you mentioned you when you moved to Saudi Arabia to teach I believe it was was there any sort of
regret in leaving Stocksbridge at an age where you probably could have given a lot more years
to club and still being at the top of your game or were you quite happy that you were able to try
something completely different by moving out there I did think about that it was I guess it was a
complex thing it was a complex moment in my life because there were so many different things
(28:05):
happening I wasn't sure there was going to be a future for me in football and I had this taste
for adventure so I realized I wasn't living a normal life already I didn't grow up living
really a normal life you know my father was a classical musician he was he wasn't like a
(28:28):
normal person you know so my my childhood felt always a little bit different and I wanted
adventure the opportunity to go work in Saudi and it just took me on a whole new chapter and a whole
new series of adventures and I think it was it was a great great moment in my life actually and it
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took me into another sport professionally so yeah I just I guess that was the way it happened and
I've had some amazing experiences the highs and lows and another one I've got to ask is that when
you are Tottenham like you mentioned you played alongside a young Peter Crouch basically he was
in the same time at Stocksbridge you were just seeing the rise of a certain Mr Jamie Vardy which
(29:14):
which one did you think was would be go on to be the better player because obviously both went on
to be incredible yeah well I remember I remember Jamie very clearly I I don't know what it was that
duck with me about him I think he was actually playing midfield when he was playing at Stocksbridge
if I remember rightly and you could see he had raw talent but in a similar way to to Peter Crouch
(29:37):
when I saw him playing he I just remember Peter Crouch standing on my foot you know in a tackle
once he was he was just so awkward he was kind of like he was so skinny as imagine a 16 year old
seven foot tall guy he was really skinny you could see they were just trying to work with him and
I thought this guy's never going to be a player you know but and then see how wrong we were about
(30:01):
Peter Crouch but I guess I with with Jamie yeah you just saw these little flashes but I didn't
see enough of him to say yeah okay this guy has what it takes I think there were there were so
many non-league players who I played with and who are very very high level and could have easily
played at a high level but it's just the way the game is there are so many young players every year
(30:25):
that get let go by professional teams and they filter into non-league and some may climb get
back eventually some may not and I guess that's one of the sad things about the life of a
footballer if you if you put everything into being a footballer you you may eventually get
nothing out of it and again that was another motivating factor for me when I had the opportunity
(30:49):
to explore work and leave football I had to make that decision you know could I be the Jamie Vardy
could that happen to me but I think there are so many variable factors you never really know
and Jamie just was in the right place at the right time and his talent developed and he he had an
amazing career and that's it's amazing that it was on the pitch with him of course do you think it
(31:14):
had things took a different direction that you could have been playing or in a high division
because it's a common refrain about you that you were too good for Stocksbridge no no I I felt
when I played I felt like I could do anything I felt when I got the ball I felt like I could
beat anybody I felt like I could dribble past anybody I felt I could do things with the ball
(31:36):
that other players couldn't do like I knew that but at the same time I think it's just circumstance
it's being in the right place at the right time it's having the opportunities presented to you
or or even seizing the opportunities and I did have opportunities training every day with the
(31:58):
first team Crystal Palace I was I was very close to pushing through but I just you know I didn't
didn't make the cut so it's just I think that's the way life is it's sliding doors in work it's
just I guess you just have to keep moving forwards it's it is what it is I'm so happy I I got into
(32:20):
another professional sport and I had some amazing experiences in that sport as well so I think if I
did if I did play professional football if I did make it I may not have had those subsequent
experiences that I did have. Actually takes one to our next topic of that it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
you're a black belt in that am I correct? Yeah yeah I'm it's my ninth year actually as a black
(32:43):
belt so I'm yeah technically a third degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu yeah. So just for anyone
who's not aware what is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and yeah what Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is it translates
you know Jiu-Jitsu is actually Japanese and it translates as the gentle art it's actually a cousin
(33:04):
of judo and it can trace its origins back to the times of the samurai when they wanted techniques
that could be lethal on the battlefield when they lost their weapons so at the core of Jiu-Jitsu
we attack all of the major joints in the body so basically you learn how to break arms elbows
(33:28):
shoulders kneecaps ankles that we even have spinal locks and of course we have chokeholds as well
which are meant to be lethal when applied so yeah that's what Jiu-Jitsu is. It became popularized
due to the UFC the actual early I don't of course you're probably aware of the UFC the ultimate
(33:53):
fighting championships this is a billion dollar it's a billion dollar industry now in the US and
back when I started Jiu-Jitsu which was in 2000 the UFC was still just only gaining traction there
was very few people in the UK knew what it was but the UFC became popularized because of Jiu-Jitsu
(34:14):
the early UFCs it was very much more of a style versus style fight and you would have wrestlers
coming and fighting taekwondo black belts or boxers fighting karate black belts and you had these
really interesting fantasy martial art matchups but in the early matchups there was a really
(34:38):
skinny guy called Hoise Gracie and he fought every type of style you can imagine and in a UFC format
i.e. no rules in a cage and he would win every single fight using Jiu-Jitsu submitting his
opponents either with chokeholds or joint locks and at the time I think there was a very there
(35:03):
was still a mystique around martial arts that karate was a form of self-defense for example
nobody really understood what Jiu-Jitsu was it just looked an unusual thing people fighting on
the ground and it wasn't understood in that sense but the UFC we saw the effectiveness of the UFC
against opponents who weren't trained in ground fighting and then after that point really the
(35:30):
popularity of Jiu-Jitsu in the early 2000s started to explode you started to see more academies opening
up in the UK and yeah that's when I started training so my first training in Jiu-Jitsu it was
it was really more MMA that I was training in at the time but I really loved the Jiu-Jitsu aspect
of it so I started training in 2000 it was it was an amazing thing to encounter I really training on
(35:59):
and off during my semi-professional career because I couldn't really put all the the effort into
training because I obviously had to attend my football training sessions but I was still
training fairly often in between so I was I would for example train Jiu-Jitsu on a Monday night and
I would go to a game on a Tuesday or training on a Tuesday or a midweek game and then maybe get
(36:24):
another training session or a Thursday or Friday so I was I was trying to cram everything in as soon
as I found Jiu-Jitsu I just fell in love with it and I felt like this was the sport for me potentially
you know especially because my football career wasn't really going to where I wanted it to go to
so because of that background when you were on the football pitch and we had you have those
(36:47):
coming together where it you know it's a bit of a brawl starts did some of the other guys want you
to get really involved in that because they knew you'd take them all out no I mean the thing is I
was very fortunate to have a really amazing instructor my first instructor he was one of the
most dangerous men you could possibly encounter he was a bouncer at a Bradford nightclub it was
(37:12):
one of the most notorious nightclubs in Bradford but despite being one of the most dangerous men
that you could possibly imagine this man was one of the most nicest humble human beings that I've
that I've ever encountered and he was self-educated as well he wasn't he wasn't formally educated but
(37:33):
he was just an incredibly insightful human being and I was really impressed by that especially
coming from a football background where to be frank there's a lot of ego involved in football
I think it's part of football and I don't want to disparage footballers in general
(37:54):
but you do see that ego plays a huge part in the the elite level of football because
these footballers are multimillionaires they're made into celebrities they're superstars it's
it's a very different direction for your life but what I saw in my instructor was I was an incredible
an incredibly powerful human being a man who could snap you in two literally with his bare hands
(38:22):
he could destroy a person physically but at the same time he was one of the most humble people
you could possibly meet and so you know that idea especially when you see people with particularly
men with such bravado about themselves aggression that you often see on the football pitch for
(38:43):
example often displayed by people who actually have no idea how to actually fight but yet will
insight violence or want to instigate violence of some kind what I came to understand is that
the more you understand the consequences of violence the less you want to become involved in it
(39:08):
so the more I started to train in jujitsu the less I thought of violence as something profitable in
any situation because the ultimate reality especially when we're talking about the idea
of self-defense is to to avoid violence at all costs I think that's the greatest expression
(39:29):
of a martial artist is someone who is able to to be a person of peace a peacemaker in the world and
not to be someone who is pushing for violence or calling for violence and and I think that's really
where the the philosophy of martial arts comes in I think the center the the root philosophy of a
(39:54):
true martial artist is love and that should be the the highest goal for our training so that we can be
powerful we can be strong confident human beings who are able to defend ourselves and our families
but be humble with the power that we have and not be an oppressor not be someone who puts others
(40:18):
down but rather as a person who is supporting societies supporting communities supporting
families these are the beautiful things that martial arts can potentially give to a person and
that's what I found and that's what I gravitated to and and that's how I live my life you know
(40:39):
you do my job for me sometimes because my next question on here was what was is the appeal of
brazilian jujitsu but I think you've just defined it perfectly there what the appeal of that in any
sort of martial artist so what I'm going to ask you next instead is how did you manage to turn that
not into a passion from that and from being a passion into basically a business and teaching
(41:01):
so many youngsters how to do brazilian jujitsu I mean my answer could be connected to that last
question as well in many respects because I think it's once you understand what martial arts can do
for people you view it as it's almost a philanthropy in in a sense because you have the ability to help
(41:22):
people you have the ability to empower people in a way that is very difficult through other means
I personally believe that jujitsu is an incredible vehicle for self-realization it can change people
in ways that you can't possibly imagine you become more confident when you train you become more
(41:45):
confident in yourself you become more confident in who you are the very idea of the power of
jujitsu it encourages a kind of self-reflection that is very difficult to find in other things
because in our training we we have to do what we call tap so you may have seen it if you watch the
(42:07):
UFC where you see the guy tap if he's in a submission hold meaning that well what is the
symbolism of a tap or a submission as the name sounds it means that they give in it means that
they accept defeat so there's a level of humility that you have to employ to accept defeat because
(42:30):
getting beat is not it's not easy people don't like to get defeated right you see the reaction
look at the reaction of defeat and how it's manifest in many different things football fans are
are known to go crazy when their team loses you know the anger the disappointment it's a consuming
thing but imagine getting that type of experience every single day in training multiple times during
(42:58):
your training session you get humbled in this way where your size and your strength means nothing
the amount of money in your bank account means nothing how good-looking you are means nothing
imagine all of those things being taken away from you that's what jujitsu does it it makes you humble
(43:21):
to yourself it makes you bring yourself back to the very essence of what makes you who you are
uh and that's empowering so in that sense once people recognize that power of jujitsu it starts
to sell itself it creates communities and that's what i did with my my business in the particularly
(43:44):
in saudi i created communities within jujitsu groups of people all together on the mats training
with the same similar type of goal not necessarily the same goals but with the same kind of experience
at its core the mutual respect and the love for the fellow human beings this was really the core
(44:08):
of my teaching and this is what i i want within my communities that i'm teaching and first and
foremost it's not for the money you know it's for the love of the game the game of jujitsu so when
you've been competing at this and competing in these championships is that sort of filling
like the competitive hall that you left behind when you left football absolutely absolutely i
(44:31):
i didn't expect that i would compete in jujitsu i didn't expect that i would compete in the world
championships of jujitsu yeah it was essentially going to the world cup of jujitsu i managed to do
that i managed to do it on multiple multiple times into my 30s the experience of competing in
combat sports i think is very different to competing in football i played in some fairly big
(45:00):
big games i played in the fa cup third round once uh for geisley that was televised that was that
was a big game but there's nothing like martial arts the the idea of competing standing across
the mat from another person and in the case of jujitsu i obviously i wasn't worried about
(45:20):
punching or kicking but i have a guy standing in front of me who wanted to break my arms break
my legs and choke me unconscious like his life depended on it because that's what i would be
trying to do to him i think that recognition of what you're undertaking is an incredibly
intense experience you're going you have to view it as battle you have to have that intensity the
(45:46):
mentality to win of course it's a sport it's not life or death just as football is not life or
death but it has obviously a threat of potential injury it has the potential threat of death
although it's a lot less of course than than it is in for example boxing where you're you're
getting a lot of head trauma but you know for example there have been cases of severe paralysis
(46:11):
in jujitsu that's happened on a number of occasions so serious injuries can potentially occur and you
you carry this feeling with you into the the fight you could call it some people don't like to call
it a fight because there's no punching and kicking but dynamic of jujitsu is it's certainly not as
brutal as other combat sports and i i do compare jujitsu to chess i don't know if you know i i did
(46:40):
play competitive chess also so at one point in my life so i consider the game of jujitsu it's the
game of human chess because it's not just about the person who has the biggest muscles or has the
greatest athletic advantage it's about strategy it's about using your mind to create a plan and
(47:04):
a way of attacking your opponent that will be to your advantage so the the whole dynamic of
competing in jujitsu was very different to football being on the pitch with 10 other players you could
you could have the greatest game ever but your team still lose or you could play really bad and
your team still win in football there's you know these dynamics were were always about the team
(47:29):
and the team cohesion but what would have really attracted me to jujitsu was that i knew that
winning and losing was very much in my hands i knew that i could win if i trained hard and i had the
right mental approach each fight and i knew i would lose if i didn't have those things present and
(47:51):
and if i lost it would be because i lost to the better fighter and that dynamic is
really unique to combat sports where you you stand across the mat from another human being
in combat such as that it's a it was a truly profound and life-changing experience to be able
to do that and of course i thankfully competed multiple times i won some i lost some and and
(48:19):
i carry those experiences with me everywhere i go and that's what i say to i say these things to my
students if you can go and do these things in your life you can go and compete in something
you know combat sports everything else becomes easy everything else becomes easy you know the
things at work and you know you have a boss who's treating you poorly you have difficulties in
(48:44):
different parts of your life if you can navigate high intensity high pressure situations such as
such as competing in combat sports i think everything else in life becomes a lot easier so
yeah amazing experiences and i'm so grateful to have lived the different lifetimes that i
that i feel that i have you know having played football and competed in martial arts you know
(49:08):
these are these are things that are are truly incredible experiences the last person we had on
was a footballer called john lemon who also plays cricket at a decent level we asked him the question
of football or cricket and he picked football so we're going to ask the same similar question to
you of jujitsu or football i have jujitsu yeah i mean i thought it was going to be
(49:31):
well it's ironic because like i said i i always felt like i could be competed at the highest
level i i really felt at the time i you know during my peak days i really felt like i could
do anything in football and of course if i did make it in football it would have made me a far
wealthier man than jujitsu has made me but at the same time i just i've had such incredible
(49:57):
experiences through jujitsu i've met such incredible people i think what i've gained from
from that is worth more than money it's worth more than than anything you know these human
experiences are really what defines us and defines the time that we spend on this earth during the
(50:19):
short time that we do have and yeah i'm grateful that i've been able to have these experiences
in in jujitsu in particular we did we got a message from one of your former teammates
jazz coliver oh yeah i remember jazz okay yeah yeah he's issuing you a challenge he wants to
grapple you because he's convinced he'll have you and that's his quote would you accept that challenge
(50:43):
yeah of course yeah it would be an honor it would be a very humbling experience to experience the
the level of jazz as he as he takes me as he says yes i'm open anytime so that's our next
stockspitch park steels fundraiser that's going on pay-per-view live from brackenbore i'm sure we can
(51:06):
organize it and i'm sure we'll find some entertainment for the others for after the 10 seconds after you
take him no no no i'll be nice to jazz he was good he was a good player so i'll i'll let him
beat me i think well i think the last time he managed against stockspitch he beat us so you know
you can maybe one submission that's a bit we'll get one back for stockspitch yeah uh stefan this
(51:31):
has been absolutely brilliant you've lived one of the most incredible lives of anyone i've ever
talked to that's no offense to anyone else who's been on podcast but you just seem to have lived
like 50 lives for all of us it feels like it sometimes yeah but it's been absolutely
fascinating to talk to you thank you very much for giving us a small part of your time and
i'm sure everyone will be getting in touch with us to how incredible this will be to listen to back
(51:55):
yeah i really appreciate it thank you so much for your time much love to everybody at stockspitch
i had such wonderful days there i'll have to visit sometime i'm i'm based in london at the moment so
i'm teaching jiu-jitsu down there that's where my academy is but hopefully next time i'm up north i
will sure try to visit stockspitch and catch up with everybody there i'm waiting for the legends
(52:20):
game apparently there was a legends game scheduled uh maybe a couple of years ago and i actually got
a call about it but it never materialized for some reason but if there ever is a stockspitch legends
game i would again i would love to be involved in it we'll absolutely put that invite out should we
manage to get another legend as much of the way it is you know the end of the 40th anniversary next
(52:42):
year in 2026 so maybe we can get something for that but stephens all thank you so much for this
it's a pleasure adam thanks for having me
i'd like to thank stephens all for spending his time with us and telling us about his incredibly
unique life if you enjoyed this please do check out our other episodes then like this subscribe
(53:07):
to us on whatever platform you're listening to us on and leave a review and a five star rating
that one really helps us Spotify it helps the podcast get seen and heard by more people
and then hopefully that just keeps on growing and growing and growing and it becomes even bigger than
well whatever the biggest podcast is anyway finally from me your host adam orcroft i'd like to
really thank you all for listening and we'll see you for the next one and i promise that
(53:30):
bait's not going to be as long next time i hope goodbye
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Steel's Talk with me your host Adam Orfra.
(00:26):
I just want to apologise for the long wait for a new episode, we had a few things we
wanted to improve on from the last few and it just took us some time to get some new
technical details in place but everything is ready now and trust me it has been worth
the wait.
That's because today's guest is Stefan Zoll, one of Stocksburgers best ever strikers and
probably most enigmatic figures.
(00:47):
Today he talks to me not just about his time with the Steel's but also the conspiracy theories
about him when he played in Sudan, why he felt he was different to other footballers
and his love for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
So let's get on with it and welcome Stefan Zoll to the show.
So thank you very much Stefan for joining us today and my first question has to be what
(01:10):
country am I talking to in right now because you seem to always be in some other brilliant
place in the world.
Well I actually recently moved back to England after many years away actually it was almost
15 years I spent in the Middle East in one country or another but the vast majority of
the past, I mean since 2008 it was I was in Saudi Arabia living working over there and
(01:34):
so it was about two years ago I returned back to England.
It's been a long time I'm just getting used to being back in England again.
So what is it like living in Saudi Arabia because it's a place where more and more people
seem to be going now, what is it, is it a huge culture shock if when you move there
or how different is it to live in here in the UK?
Well that's definitely an interesting story because when I first arrived in Saudi it wasn't
(02:00):
actually the first time I was there.
I first went in 2003 as part of a sports exchange program.
It was something I got connected into with my university and I went over as an ambassador
representing football from the UK.
(02:20):
Back then it was a very very different place to how it is now.
It was one of the most isolated countries in the world.
You could put it alongside pretty much North Korea and yeah it was North Korea, Saudi,
Iran they were it was basically like this.
These are pretty much the most isolated countries in the world when it would come to simply
(02:45):
being able to visit them and Saudi Arabia was no different then.
For example there were no tourist visas when I first arrived so you couldn't simply decide
you wanted to visit Saudi Arabia.
You would have to have a work visa or some kind of special invitation visa, business
visa or something like this.
So yeah in that respect you were going into the complete unknown.
(03:12):
So restrictions on the media for example.
There was very little known about what was actually happening inside of Saudi Arabia
other than by accounts from Saudis who had for example left for one reason or another
or had been travelling.
So yeah there was a huge difference in the way the country has changed since the days
(03:38):
that I arrived the early years and then the recent changes that we've seen there now where
you have major sporting events happening, you have massive boxing matches happening.
Just the whole change of society there has been very very rapid within the past 20 years.
So yeah huge changes.
(03:58):
Quite coincidentally before going into this podcast I actually ended up listening to quite
a few interviews with some of the footballers that have gone over there with the Saudi I
think Super League isn't it?
That's been getting bigger and bigger.
What would be your advice to any players that are going to move over there?
I mean obviously knowing what footballers are like and how can they better just do it
(04:20):
Saudi Arabia and make the most of the extra money that's on offer over there?
Yeah well it's as I said the changes that have happened in recent years mean that the
lifestyle there is not inhospitable for example to footballers in certain senses in terms
(04:40):
of the modernity of life, the way that you would go about your daily life.
It's definitely a lot different now than it used to be.
But then at the same time you don't have access to certain lifestyle elements that some footballers
might like to for example nightlife is very different.
(05:01):
There aren't really nightclubs as such you know if that were your thing for example.
Although I don't know it seems quite risky for most modern footballers to go out to nightclubs
these days.
But yeah it really depends on the type of lifestyle that you would be willing to live.
I think that's one of the big things.
If you like a life of luxury though for sure Saudi is a place where you can enjoy a very
(05:27):
luxurious lifestyle.
It isn't just Saudi Arabia that you have been to in your life it seems like you've gone
across the world.
You don't just pick the places that have package holidays from Hayes Travel.
Could you tell about why you go to all these unique places in the world rather than just
the beaten track?
My interest in travel started really from a young age because as you may know my father
(05:49):
was German and I would travel to see him in Germany when I was very young.
I remember going on a plane.
I must have been maybe five or six years old.
I was by myself.
I went as an unaccompanied minor.
I flew over to see my dad in Frankfurt.
So I was used to going to airports from like a very early age traveling by myself.
(06:13):
As strange as that is.
And so it gave me an interest in the world and I saw something a little bit different
than my hometown of Leeds which was where my mum was from.
That pushed on into my adult life when I became very interested in languages after my professional
football career ended.
(06:34):
I was thinking of studying a language so I could have the opportunity to travel to different
countries.
I whittled a choice down between Chinese, Japanese, Russian and Arabic.
I looked at all of those languages before applying to university to study and I ended
up deciding on Arabic.
(06:55):
It seemed like the most politically relevant because I started that degree in 2002 which
was a year after September the 11th happened which was 2001.
So there was a lot of focus on the Middle East and the politics of the Middle East.
So Arabic seemed like a very pertinent language to study at the time and that effectively
(07:21):
connected me to the Arabic speaking world for the next 20 plus years essentially speaking.
So it took me to different countries.
I lived in Morocco for a year for example, I studied Arabic there.
I did volunteer work in Sudan for a period of time.
(07:41):
I cornered MMA fighters in Jordan.
I competed in Jiu Jitsu in Saudi Arabia.
I also went to Syria before the war so yeah kind of all over random Arabic speaking countries
I ended up visiting for one reason or another.
(08:03):
It was interesting.
I have some stories to tell.
Yes and one of those stories I'm going to press on because otherwise I've got to give
my journalism degree back to the university because what happened in Syria?
Well yeah it was an interesting story.
It was a very very tense time politically in the world because it was the year of the
(08:26):
7-7 bombings in the UK so I think and the ongoing invasion of Iraq.
So there were a lot of global tensions and Syria was again a very isolated country in
the world with the dictatorship that was in place there.
It was a very oppressive country and very few foreigners were really able to live freely
(08:51):
there and go around.
It was more accessible in Saudi Arabia for example as you could get tourist visas but
it was still a country that had dangerous elements and dangerous aspects to it.
I actually went to study Arabic at an institute there where many foreigners were being taught
(09:15):
and the government I'd heard before visiting that the government had a habit of picking
up foreign nationals arresting them without charge holding them for indefinite periods
of time.
But I kind of always assumed that this was mainly the people from Arab countries or not
(09:37):
necessarily European visitors or Western visitors so to speak but unfortunately that wasn't
the case in my case and I was picked up by the secret police from an apartment where
I was studying and they came with Kalashnikovs, plain clothes.
I thought I was being kidnapped to start off with so and at that time I'm not sure how
(10:04):
if you remember these things there were some very difficult times happening in Iraq with
foreign nationals being kidnapped and treated in the most heinous ways so I feared that
I may endure a similar fate.
I was taken to a police station it was actually the home of the secret police they were very
(10:27):
notorious for torturing and disappearing citizens of Syria and many many citizens of other Arab
countries.
This was standard practice and it was always something people understood happened but because
Syria was such an isolated country there was really there was no response from the international
(10:50):
community when these things happened because unless it was a Western and it was often people
would turn a blind eye to these type of things.
So yeah they took me to this secret police the home of the secret police it was in a
suburb of Damascus they held me in a police station for three days.
(11:11):
I witnessed with my own eyes the torture of Syrian nationals what I presumed were Syrian
nationals from their appearance and the dialect that I heard them speaking.
It was a super traumatic time I was interrogated relentlessly for that period of time but I
(11:34):
think it was my British passport that eventually saved me because they released me unceremoniously
dumping me onto the street after three days of interrogation.
So yeah I think just having my British passport at that time was sufficient enough to just
keep me safe but there are many other people that have disappeared indefinitely after visiting
(11:58):
such places.
So I have to consider myself lucky on that adventure.
Just from when I read about this story before this was in 2005 so were you was this in the
summer in between playing for Stocksbridge Park Steeles?
It was probably yes probably.
So while all the other lads were probably out in Mallorca and stuff you were in Syria
(12:19):
having this awful traumatic experience did you tell any of it when you got back to training?
No no no no there's no these are not I guess these are not changing room stories it's not
the traditional football banter.
I never lived the traditional football banter type of lifestyle you know I was always amazed
(12:39):
at the banter of the guys and the way it was it was a funny thing but I don't know I just
I was always doing something different or engaged in my mind and another place so yeah
it wasn't a story that I shared widely actually.
But when you were in these trips Rod you did play some football I saw you played for Al
(13:01):
Halal in Sudan which for our listeners that is the biggest club in Sudan they play in
the African Champions League and also at Maghreb of Fez in Morocco that stadium's up for consideration
for the World Cup in 2030.
What's it like playing in Africa?
That was an incredible experience actually when I went to Sudan it was just that was
(13:24):
phenomenal.
Well first of all you have to deal with playing in a heat that is the type of heat you can't
possibly imagine but it was I can't even begin to describe the experience it was really wonderful.
Different from Stocksbridge that heat.
Yeah absolutely I'm not like those cold rainy nights up in Stocksbridge it was a different
(13:45):
ball game for sure.
Of course you have different types of pitches the condition was the condition of the pitches
was less than optimal a lot of the time but there were some incredibly skillful players
there and a love for football is something universal of course you find that in every
part of the world and there was a similar experience in Morocco I actually started playing
(14:06):
street football whilst I was there in Morocco and I would play some incredible like five
a side pick up games and random parts of the city with kids who were just obsessed with
football who played day and night day and night and I had a great time there eventually
jumped in with a another I played there for it was only a few weeks actually because I
(14:31):
was trying to fit it in around my studies but I was playing with a first team had some
training sessions there and they were incredibly skillful as well in Morocco there were some
incredible players there it's yeah of course football is the global language it connects
people and so many different parts of the world so it's great to see and experience
those.
(14:52):
What were the atmospheres like that because I've seen some of the clips of Africa and
that seems to be where Europeans have the most experience and they're brilliant and
Moroccan football in particular I've seen the Casablanca Derby footage and that just
looks insane was it were the atmosphere just brilliant when you were there?
Of course of course yeah football is something huge in those countries it's it unifies people
(15:15):
it gives them something special to focus upon as well and entertainment is very different
there as well there aren't there isn't a huge for example theatre or cinema culture there
people don't really have much to do outside of sporting events and in particular football
so it's easy to see why football gains so much attention in those type of countries
(15:40):
football is of course huge amazing amazing atmospheres.
And while you were at Al-Hilal what was this conspiracy theory that started about you?
Yeah this was great there was a rival team in so the city I was staying in was called
Khartoum and there was a rival team called Itihad and they wanted to they didn't want
(16:06):
Al-Hilal to have the prestige of having a foreign player playing for them because they
had no European players playing for them at the time so they were trying to find a way
of discrediting me whilst playing for them and they came up with this story because I
spoke some Arabic at the time actually was I think that was 2003 so I was only in the
(16:28):
second year of my Arabic degree so my Arabic was pretty bad at that time you know but they
came up with the story that I was actually an albino Sudanese guy and that I just was
speaking Arabic and they just found me and were trying to pass me off as this European
(16:51):
player whereas you know I wasn't really a European player so that was actually a published
story in the newspaper I wish I still had it I saw it was it was really hilarious.
Did that get any traction did anyone actually believe that or did you have to deal with
that as a problem people coming up to you saying you're not really European?
(17:12):
Well the thing is remember this was 2003 so you didn't have mobile phone there was no
internet there was nothing so like people would read this in the newspaper and you know
they would have some credence right they would think okay maybe he is a Sudanese albino you
know.
It's just absolutely mad this is a personal love of mine all this football that's happening
(17:35):
in countries you don't think of usually I listen to a lot of podcasts on it and it's
just fascinating to hear all these stories from the countries again you don't hear much
and you're great you can actually watch it on your phone now there's an app for watching
football in Sudan.
Yeah FIFA Plus by the way for anyone who is interested.
But we'll move on to more familiar grounds onto Stocksbridge itself how did the move
(17:55):
to Stocksbridge come about?
You know it's a little bit hazy to be honest you're talking quite a few years ago I as
I mentioned to you I played professionally I mean I left school at 16 I signed for Barnsley
and the YTS system I had spells at Tottenham Hotspur I was in the reserves at Tottenham
during the time.
(18:17):
Christian Gross was the manager they had Jurgen Klinsman playing up front and so I had six
months spell at Tottenham then I also had a spell at Crystal Palace as a youth in the
reserves Terry Venables was the manager at the time and I felt like I was getting to
the point where I was getting close to making a first team appearance.
(18:40):
I got an opportunity to go out and play in the French second division when I was 19 years
old so I signed a year contract with Dunkirk played a year there it didn't really go how
I planned I came back and back to the UK when I was 20 years old and I couldn't get back
into professional football at that time as there were many players similar to me you
(19:02):
know there are so many players each year that just they kind of end up filtering into non-league
and that's what happened to me I just filtered into non-league football eventually ended
up at Stocksbridge I think I was probably playing at a maybe Pickering before then it
was I played at a few non-league clubs in the Yorkshire area because my mum is from
(19:24):
Leeds I had a small stint at Whitby but I think for sure I did my best work at Stocksbridge
again I can't remember exactly how it came about just Pete got in touch with me said
come on by come and have a look at the ground and sign for us so yes of course when I saw
the ground I was I was actually very impressed because it's quite rare that you find good
(19:49):
quality pitches in non-league at those type of levels and Stocksbridge their pitch was
certainly better than many of the other grounds and in the league at that level so yeah I
thought I would give it a go and see how it was at Stocksbridge and definitely I had some
of the best best years of my non-league life there.
(20:11):
Yeah so we obviously we talked to Peter Rinkevich a bit back and he raves about you says you
were one of his best players. When you went into the dressing room and saw the other team
what would the players that you remember particularly from that time and what did you think of the
rest of the team?
Well Pete had a really great team at that time I think it was even he during my period
(20:34):
there even it just started to he just made some really amazing signings and he managed
to really gel the group of players that they had I can't actually remember many of the
names but Stephen Hawes honestly I can't recall many names but there were some really really
great players of just so much quality and I know we had a really good team at the time
(20:58):
and we had a lot of success and the players were really great it's quite rare that you
see that at non-league level such a collection of good players together. I think we could
have just done more we just maybe it's always difficult I think for non-league clubs to
keep players in at a semi-professional level it's difficult to just keep teams together
(21:22):
I think but Pete did a great job during that time and he got together just a group of really
great players and I had so many great memories playing there.
Well you did play alongside our current management team of Ian Richards and Andy Ring do you
have any particular members of them? I think Andy Ring's copied your style in terms of
your hair and the beard and everything else.
(21:43):
Yes yeah Andy Ring of course yeah I remember Andy of course and Andy was my strike partner
for much of the time as well maybe my final season or one of the seasons I remember yeah
so he was a big strong classic striker so he was quite a good compliment for me to play
with as well I enjoyed playing with him yeah I just like to get the ball and just take
(22:09):
everybody on and score you know I wanted to score beautiful goals that was my that was
what gave me the most pleasure scoring beautiful goals.
Yeah and on that I've been asking around a lot of the people who were there about their
memories of you and Peter Rinkevich mentioned this particular one as well in the podcast a
(22:29):
few episodes ago there was a goal against Marine this is it's been brought up a few times this one
this is the one where apparently the ball got cleared to you after a corner already down to
10 man because Duncan Richards has been sent off and you've gone past a few plays and scored to
secure to beat Marine in the semi-final of the league cup and get to the final and what
one of the biggest final stocks we've just ever been in what do you what do you remember of that?
(22:53):
Oh I remember both both goals really well I knew it was a big game those were the type of games
that I wanted to play in because I always believed that I could play at a higher level and
I wanted to obviously I had played professionally I played at a high level and I still believed
that I could could make it at a high level it was just getting the opportunity was always
(23:18):
a challenge for a young player but that that game against Marine it was just a beautiful game
that's the second goal I remember the first goal I remember the second goal I remember the player
being sent off it was it was a great game it was a classic game and the history of Stocksbridge
for sure it was an honor to be part of it and scoring yeah the the second goal was amazing and
(23:41):
I always made sure when when I scored the big goals I would go and celebrate with Pete you
know because I kind of I like to to make him happy I like to make the team happy I like to
score the goals for the team so yeah there's a beautiful moment I will never forget it for sure
Is there any other particular memories from play of Stockbridge that just you remember very fondly?
Certainly scoring some of the best goals I've ever scored I remember there was a few goals
(24:09):
particularly that I scored in front of my father my father was my my biggest supporter he'd always
helped me throughout my career he'd helped me in many different ways and supported me so
he would come over he was living in France for the remaining part of his life and
he would always make a great effort to come and watch me play so I managed to score some
(24:31):
really amazing goals in front of him I remember there was one against maybe Bishop Auckland I
think but it was them it was it was probably the best goal of my non-league career maybe
arguably better than the marine goal took the ball from inside our own penalty area I think and I
took it all the way and scored and and that was just beautiful to be able to score that in front
of my father and yeah that made me be very happy so but a lot of amazing moments playing different
(24:58):
games and the highs and the lows of football just just the experience was experiences of a lifetime
for sure one thing also when I've been asking around about you is that one of the things that
came back consistently that you were not the typical footballer you were not the one who'd
be propping up racking more social club until eight o'clock like some of them if not
later what was it like trying to fit in with a lot of lads who did like propping up racking more
(25:22):
social club until eight o'clock if not later and how is it trying to get on with lads who obviously
very different to you I guess I never felt like a typical footballer in many respects I was always
interested in many different things outside of football I was I was a football fan of sorts but
for example I never supported a team certainly not into my not not not I didn't I was neither
(25:47):
really a lead supporter I wasn't a supporter for any team as such my dad my dad liked the German
teams he for example liked Bayern Munich but he was from Frankfurt he he loved to watch any any
German team he would watch but I didn't have a particular bias as such for my father and my
(26:09):
father for any team so it was a learning experience for me really being around footballers and the
mentality involved it was difficult at times because I I guess I didn't feel I was connecting
with with people and as such it was only really when I got into martial arts that I started to
(26:31):
see things a little bit differently about relationships with people and connecting with
people and understanding the human experience but yeah I never had any issues getting on with
the team I loved the humour the football banter was always something amazing and I had some great
(26:52):
experiences because this seemed to be something Peter Ringfitch wanted was this like team morale
boost in which he did do by making sure you couldn't leave the bar it seemed like a great
atmosphere in the team at the time was that the thing you enjoyed the most or was it just playing
on the pitch and scoring those fantastic goals of course the atmosphere was amazing there were some
real comedians in the team the team bus rides were ridiculous stories of all kinds of bizarre
(27:19):
nights out drinking women and so on various x-rated stories were the norm on the team bus
but yeah the the atmosphere was amazing but of course I loved the game I loved to play I
loved to score goals I loved to create kind of like an art from from football so obviously you
(27:41):
you mentioned you when you moved to Saudi Arabia to teach I believe it was was there any sort of
regret in leaving Stocksbridge at an age where you probably could have given a lot more years
to club and still being at the top of your game or were you quite happy that you were able to try
something completely different by moving out there I did think about that it was I guess it was a
complex thing it was a complex moment in my life because there were so many different things
(28:05):
happening I wasn't sure there was going to be a future for me in football and I had this taste
for adventure so I realized I wasn't living a normal life already I didn't grow up living
really a normal life you know my father was a classical musician he was he wasn't like a
(28:28):
normal person you know so my my childhood felt always a little bit different and I wanted
adventure the opportunity to go work in Saudi and it just took me on a whole new chapter and a whole
new series of adventures and I think it was it was a great great moment in my life actually and it
(28:49):
took me into another sport professionally so yeah I just I guess that was the way it happened and
I've had some amazing experiences the highs and lows and another one I've got to ask is that when
you are Tottenham like you mentioned you played alongside a young Peter Crouch basically he was
in the same time at Stocksbridge you were just seeing the rise of a certain Mr Jamie Vardy which
(29:14):
which one did you think was would be go on to be the better player because obviously both went on
to be incredible yeah well I remember I remember Jamie very clearly I I don't know what it was that
duck with me about him I think he was actually playing midfield when he was playing at Stocksbridge
if I remember rightly and you could see he had raw talent but in a similar way to to Peter Crouch
(29:37):
when I saw him playing he I just remember Peter Crouch standing on my foot you know in a tackle
once he was he was just so awkward he was kind of like he was so skinny as imagine a 16 year old
seven foot tall guy he was really skinny you could see they were just trying to work with him and
I thought this guy's never going to be a player you know but and then see how wrong we were about
(30:01):
Peter Crouch but I guess I with with Jamie yeah you just saw these little flashes but I didn't
see enough of him to say yeah okay this guy has what it takes I think there were there were so
many non-league players who I played with and who are very very high level and could have easily
played at a high level but it's just the way the game is there are so many young players every year
(30:25):
that get let go by professional teams and they filter into non-league and some may climb get
back eventually some may not and I guess that's one of the sad things about the life of a
footballer if you if you put everything into being a footballer you you may eventually get
nothing out of it and again that was another motivating factor for me when I had the opportunity
(30:49):
to explore work and leave football I had to make that decision you know could I be the Jamie Vardy
could that happen to me but I think there are so many variable factors you never really know
and Jamie just was in the right place at the right time and his talent developed and he he had an
amazing career and that's it's amazing that it was on the pitch with him of course do you think it
(31:14):
had things took a different direction that you could have been playing or in a high division
because it's a common refrain about you that you were too good for Stocksbridge no no I I felt
when I played I felt like I could do anything I felt when I got the ball I felt like I could
beat anybody I felt like I could dribble past anybody I felt I could do things with the ball
(31:36):
that other players couldn't do like I knew that but at the same time I think it's just circumstance
it's being in the right place at the right time it's having the opportunities presented to you
or or even seizing the opportunities and I did have opportunities training every day with the
(31:58):
first team Crystal Palace I was I was very close to pushing through but I just you know I didn't
didn't make the cut so it's just I think that's the way life is it's sliding doors in work it's
just I guess you just have to keep moving forwards it's it is what it is I'm so happy I I got into
(32:20):
another professional sport and I had some amazing experiences in that sport as well so I think if I
did if I did play professional football if I did make it I may not have had those subsequent
experiences that I did have. Actually takes one to our next topic of that it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
you're a black belt in that am I correct? Yeah yeah I'm it's my ninth year actually as a black
(32:43):
belt so I'm yeah technically a third degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu yeah. So just for anyone
who's not aware what is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and yeah what Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is it translates
you know Jiu-Jitsu is actually Japanese and it translates as the gentle art it's actually a cousin
(33:04):
of judo and it can trace its origins back to the times of the samurai when they wanted techniques
that could be lethal on the battlefield when they lost their weapons so at the core of Jiu-Jitsu
we attack all of the major joints in the body so basically you learn how to break arms elbows
(33:28):
shoulders kneecaps ankles that we even have spinal locks and of course we have chokeholds as well
which are meant to be lethal when applied so yeah that's what Jiu-Jitsu is. It became popularized
due to the UFC the actual early I don't of course you're probably aware of the UFC the ultimate
(33:53):
fighting championships this is a billion dollar it's a billion dollar industry now in the US and
back when I started Jiu-Jitsu which was in 2000 the UFC was still just only gaining traction there
was very few people in the UK knew what it was but the UFC became popularized because of Jiu-Jitsu
(34:14):
the early UFCs it was very much more of a style versus style fight and you would have wrestlers
coming and fighting taekwondo black belts or boxers fighting karate black belts and you had these
really interesting fantasy martial art matchups but in the early matchups there was a really
(34:38):
skinny guy called Hoise Gracie and he fought every type of style you can imagine and in a UFC format
i.e. no rules in a cage and he would win every single fight using Jiu-Jitsu submitting his
opponents either with chokeholds or joint locks and at the time I think there was a very there
(35:03):
was still a mystique around martial arts that karate was a form of self-defense for example
nobody really understood what Jiu-Jitsu was it just looked an unusual thing people fighting on
the ground and it wasn't understood in that sense but the UFC we saw the effectiveness of the UFC
against opponents who weren't trained in ground fighting and then after that point really the
(35:30):
popularity of Jiu-Jitsu in the early 2000s started to explode you started to see more academies opening
up in the UK and yeah that's when I started training so my first training in Jiu-Jitsu it was
it was really more MMA that I was training in at the time but I really loved the Jiu-Jitsu aspect
of it so I started training in 2000 it was it was an amazing thing to encounter I really training on
(35:59):
and off during my semi-professional career because I couldn't really put all the the effort into
training because I obviously had to attend my football training sessions but I was still
training fairly often in between so I was I would for example train Jiu-Jitsu on a Monday night and
I would go to a game on a Tuesday or training on a Tuesday or a midweek game and then maybe get
(36:24):
another training session or a Thursday or Friday so I was I was trying to cram everything in as soon
as I found Jiu-Jitsu I just fell in love with it and I felt like this was the sport for me potentially
you know especially because my football career wasn't really going to where I wanted it to go to
so because of that background when you were on the football pitch and we had you have those
(36:47):
coming together where it you know it's a bit of a brawl starts did some of the other guys want you
to get really involved in that because they knew you'd take them all out no I mean the thing is I
was very fortunate to have a really amazing instructor my first instructor he was one of the
most dangerous men you could possibly encounter he was a bouncer at a Bradford nightclub it was
(37:12):
one of the most notorious nightclubs in Bradford but despite being one of the most dangerous men
that you could possibly imagine this man was one of the most nicest humble human beings that I've
that I've ever encountered and he was self-educated as well he wasn't he wasn't formally educated but
(37:33):
he was just an incredibly insightful human being and I was really impressed by that especially
coming from a football background where to be frank there's a lot of ego involved in football
I think it's part of football and I don't want to disparage footballers in general
(37:54):
but you do see that ego plays a huge part in the the elite level of football because
these footballers are multimillionaires they're made into celebrities they're superstars it's
it's a very different direction for your life but what I saw in my instructor was I was an incredible
an incredibly powerful human being a man who could snap you in two literally with his bare hands
(38:22):
he could destroy a person physically but at the same time he was one of the most humble people
you could possibly meet and so you know that idea especially when you see people with particularly
men with such bravado about themselves aggression that you often see on the football pitch for
(38:43):
example often displayed by people who actually have no idea how to actually fight but yet will
insight violence or want to instigate violence of some kind what I came to understand is that
the more you understand the consequences of violence the less you want to become involved in it
(39:08):
so the more I started to train in jujitsu the less I thought of violence as something profitable in
any situation because the ultimate reality especially when we're talking about the idea
of self-defense is to to avoid violence at all costs I think that's the greatest expression
(39:29):
of a martial artist is someone who is able to to be a person of peace a peacemaker in the world and
not to be someone who is pushing for violence or calling for violence and and I think that's really
where the the philosophy of martial arts comes in I think the center the the root philosophy of a
(39:54):
true martial artist is love and that should be the the highest goal for our training so that we can be
powerful we can be strong confident human beings who are able to defend ourselves and our families
but be humble with the power that we have and not be an oppressor not be someone who puts others
(40:18):
down but rather as a person who is supporting societies supporting communities supporting
families these are the beautiful things that martial arts can potentially give to a person and
that's what I found and that's what I gravitated to and and that's how I live my life you know
(40:39):
you do my job for me sometimes because my next question on here was what was is the appeal of
brazilian jujitsu but I think you've just defined it perfectly there what the appeal of that in any
sort of martial artist so what I'm going to ask you next instead is how did you manage to turn that
not into a passion from that and from being a passion into basically a business and teaching
(41:01):
so many youngsters how to do brazilian jujitsu I mean my answer could be connected to that last
question as well in many respects because I think it's once you understand what martial arts can do
for people you view it as it's almost a philanthropy in in a sense because you have the ability to help
(41:22):
people you have the ability to empower people in a way that is very difficult through other means
I personally believe that jujitsu is an incredible vehicle for self-realization it can change people
in ways that you can't possibly imagine you become more confident when you train you become more
(41:45):
confident in yourself you become more confident in who you are the very idea of the power of
jujitsu it encourages a kind of self-reflection that is very difficult to find in other things
because in our training we we have to do what we call tap so you may have seen it if you watch the
(42:07):
UFC where you see the guy tap if he's in a submission hold meaning that well what is the
symbolism of a tap or a submission as the name sounds it means that they give in it means that
they accept defeat so there's a level of humility that you have to employ to accept defeat because
(42:30):
getting beat is not it's not easy people don't like to get defeated right you see the reaction
look at the reaction of defeat and how it's manifest in many different things football fans are
are known to go crazy when their team loses you know the anger the disappointment it's a consuming
thing but imagine getting that type of experience every single day in training multiple times during
(42:58):
your training session you get humbled in this way where your size and your strength means nothing
the amount of money in your bank account means nothing how good-looking you are means nothing
imagine all of those things being taken away from you that's what jujitsu does it it makes you humble
(43:21):
to yourself it makes you bring yourself back to the very essence of what makes you who you are
uh and that's empowering so in that sense once people recognize that power of jujitsu it starts
to sell itself it creates communities and that's what i did with my my business in the particularly
(43:44):
in saudi i created communities within jujitsu groups of people all together on the mats training
with the same similar type of goal not necessarily the same goals but with the same kind of experience
at its core the mutual respect and the love for the fellow human beings this was really the core
(44:08):
of my teaching and this is what i i want within my communities that i'm teaching and first and
foremost it's not for the money you know it's for the love of the game the game of jujitsu so when
you've been competing at this and competing in these championships is that sort of filling
like the competitive hall that you left behind when you left football absolutely absolutely i
(44:31):
i didn't expect that i would compete in jujitsu i didn't expect that i would compete in the world
championships of jujitsu yeah it was essentially going to the world cup of jujitsu i managed to do
that i managed to do it on multiple multiple times into my 30s the experience of competing in
combat sports i think is very different to competing in football i played in some fairly big
(45:00):
big games i played in the fa cup third round once uh for geisley that was televised that was that
was a big game but there's nothing like martial arts the the idea of competing standing across
the mat from another person and in the case of jujitsu i obviously i wasn't worried about
(45:20):
punching or kicking but i have a guy standing in front of me who wanted to break my arms break
my legs and choke me unconscious like his life depended on it because that's what i would be
trying to do to him i think that recognition of what you're undertaking is an incredibly
intense experience you're going you have to view it as battle you have to have that intensity the
(45:46):
mentality to win of course it's a sport it's not life or death just as football is not life or
death but it has obviously a threat of potential injury it has the potential threat of death
although it's a lot less of course than than it is in for example boxing where you're you're
getting a lot of head trauma but you know for example there have been cases of severe paralysis
(46:11):
in jujitsu that's happened on a number of occasions so serious injuries can potentially occur and you
you carry this feeling with you into the the fight you could call it some people don't like to call
it a fight because there's no punching and kicking but dynamic of jujitsu is it's certainly not as
brutal as other combat sports and i i do compare jujitsu to chess i don't know if you know i i did
(46:40):
play competitive chess also so at one point in my life so i consider the game of jujitsu it's the
game of human chess because it's not just about the person who has the biggest muscles or has the
greatest athletic advantage it's about strategy it's about using your mind to create a plan and
(47:04):
a way of attacking your opponent that will be to your advantage so the the whole dynamic of
competing in jujitsu was very different to football being on the pitch with 10 other players you could
you could have the greatest game ever but your team still lose or you could play really bad and
your team still win in football there's you know these dynamics were were always about the team
(47:29):
and the team cohesion but what would have really attracted me to jujitsu was that i knew that
winning and losing was very much in my hands i knew that i could win if i trained hard and i had the
right mental approach each fight and i knew i would lose if i didn't have those things present and
(47:51):
and if i lost it would be because i lost to the better fighter and that dynamic is
really unique to combat sports where you you stand across the mat from another human being
in combat such as that it's a it was a truly profound and life-changing experience to be able
to do that and of course i thankfully competed multiple times i won some i lost some and and
(48:19):
i carry those experiences with me everywhere i go and that's what i say to i say these things to my
students if you can go and do these things in your life you can go and compete in something
you know combat sports everything else becomes easy everything else becomes easy you know the
things at work and you know you have a boss who's treating you poorly you have difficulties in
(48:44):
different parts of your life if you can navigate high intensity high pressure situations such as
such as competing in combat sports i think everything else in life becomes a lot easier so
yeah amazing experiences and i'm so grateful to have lived the different lifetimes that i
that i feel that i have you know having played football and competed in martial arts you know
(49:08):
these are these are things that are are truly incredible experiences the last person we had on
was a footballer called john lemon who also plays cricket at a decent level we asked him the question
of football or cricket and he picked football so we're going to ask the same similar question to
you of jujitsu or football i have jujitsu yeah i mean i thought it was going to be
(49:31):
well it's ironic because like i said i i always felt like i could be competed at the highest
level i i really felt at the time i you know during my peak days i really felt like i could
do anything in football and of course if i did make it in football it would have made me a far
wealthier man than jujitsu has made me but at the same time i just i've had such incredible
(49:57):
experiences through jujitsu i've met such incredible people i think what i've gained from
from that is worth more than money it's worth more than than anything you know these human
experiences are really what defines us and defines the time that we spend on this earth during the
(50:19):
short time that we do have and yeah i'm grateful that i've been able to have these experiences
in in jujitsu in particular we did we got a message from one of your former teammates
jazz coliver oh yeah i remember jazz okay yeah yeah he's issuing you a challenge he wants to
grapple you because he's convinced he'll have you and that's his quote would you accept that challenge
(50:43):
yeah of course yeah it would be an honor it would be a very humbling experience to experience the
the level of jazz as he as he takes me as he says yes i'm open anytime so that's our next
stockspitch park steels fundraiser that's going on pay-per-view live from brackenbore i'm sure we can
(51:06):
organize it and i'm sure we'll find some entertainment for the others for after the 10 seconds after you
take him no no no i'll be nice to jazz he was good he was a good player so i'll i'll let him
beat me i think well i think the last time he managed against stockspitch he beat us so you know
you can maybe one submission that's a bit we'll get one back for stockspitch yeah uh stefan this
(51:31):
has been absolutely brilliant you've lived one of the most incredible lives of anyone i've ever
talked to that's no offense to anyone else who's been on podcast but you just seem to have lived
like 50 lives for all of us it feels like it sometimes yeah but it's been absolutely
fascinating to talk to you thank you very much for giving us a small part of your time and
i'm sure everyone will be getting in touch with us to how incredible this will be to listen to back
(51:55):
yeah i really appreciate it thank you so much for your time much love to everybody at stockspitch
i had such wonderful days there i'll have to visit sometime i'm i'm based in london at the moment so
i'm teaching jiu-jitsu down there that's where my academy is but hopefully next time i'm up north i
will sure try to visit stockspitch and catch up with everybody there i'm waiting for the legends
(52:20):
game apparently there was a legends game scheduled uh maybe a couple of years ago and i actually got
a call about it but it never materialized for some reason but if there ever is a stockspitch legends
game i would again i would love to be involved in it we'll absolutely put that invite out should we
manage to get another legend as much of the way it is you know the end of the 40th anniversary next
(52:42):
year in 2026 so maybe we can get something for that but stephens all thank you so much for this
it's a pleasure adam thanks for having me
i'd like to thank stephens all for spending his time with us and telling us about his incredibly
unique life if you enjoyed this please do check out our other episodes then like this subscribe
(53:07):
to us on whatever platform you're listening to us on and leave a review and a five star rating
that one really helps us Spotify it helps the podcast get seen and heard by more people
and then hopefully that just keeps on growing and growing and growing and it becomes even bigger than
well whatever the biggest podcast is anyway finally from me your host adam orcroft i'd like to
really thank you all for listening and we'll see you for the next one and i promise that
(53:30):
bait's not going to be as long next time i hope goodbye
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