July 15, 2025 • 38 mins
What if your home or office is silently shaping your health, your mood, and even your future? In this eye-opening episode, Dave sits down with Dr. Mandana Khanie, Lecturer in Health and Wellbeing in Sustainable Buildings at UCL and Deputy Director of the Light and Lighting MSc Program. Together, they explore how the architecture of our indoor lives, where we now spend 90% of our time, profoundly impacts our biological rhythms, mental health, and long-term wellness.
Mandana shares her unique journey from aspiring medical doctor to architectural engineer, and why reconnecting design with natural sunlight is essential to reversing modern public health trends. They discuss cutting-edge research on circadian rhythms, the unintended health risks of LED lighting, and how built environments could be reshaped with real sunlight exposure, shadow mapping, and human-centric design at the core.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone in architecture, urban planning, real estate, or simply passionate about wellness and sustainability. Tune in to hear how we can design buildings and cities that are not only energy-efficient but biologically nourishing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
I thought, oh, okay, being an architect, I will have
more impact because I'm actuallyaffecting where people are
living, which will affect theirhealth, their well-being, their
psychology, everything, becausewe are surrounded by these
buildings.
We live, well, these days asmodern humans, we live 90% of
our time in these buildings.
So it's affecting us from whenwe are born till when we are
(00:21):
passing away.
And no medication would allow usto help all the way through.
So this is a lot more impactfulway of being useful to humankind
and being useful to
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
our health and living.
LED lighting and the fact thatactually LED lighting in
buildings is often suboptimal tothe point where it might be
causing damage to us.
And, you know, I think one ofthe findings was incandescent
light, you know, the old lightbulbs were actually better in
terms of the light that theywere giving off.
(00:53):
And suddenly I'm like, well, inthe race to kind of make us all
much more energy efficient, didanyone think about the law of
Welcome
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us
with the sun.
Join us as we explore the powerand influence of our star, the
force at the heart ofeverything.
Each episode, we speak withleading experts to uncover the
ways sunlight shapes our world.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
By the way, I love the painting behind you, the
picture behind you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
The
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
moon in Louisiana, that is just stunning.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
Yeah, I really love this one.
I wish I had the actualpainting.
This is just the poster that Igot from Louisiana Museum.
Just couldn't help myself.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
It's just...
Quantalism, is it?
So it's just beautiful.
Anyway, let's get started.
Welcome to today's show.
And I am delighted to welcomeDr.
Mandana.
I hope I pronounced that right,from UCL.
And you're a lecturer in healthand well-being in sustainable
(02:06):
buildings and also DeputyDirector of Light and Light
Programme.
So would you like to just giveus a bit of an introduction to
yourself and tell us a bit aboutthe roles that
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
you play?
Yeah, thank you, Dave, for thatintroduction.
Yes, I go by Mondana Connie, butmy full family name is Sari
Connie.
So, yeah, you have all the rightto confuse that a bit.
Somehow, since I moved to UCL, Ihave turned into just the Connie
part.
Okay.
But that's how it is.
Yeah, as you mentioned, I'm alecturer at the moment in health
(02:42):
and well-being and sustainablebuildings at UCL.
My background is architecturalengineering, and I've also
studied design for sustainabledevelopment.
So basically some of the thingsthat I have been really
passionate about, so I have ingeneral followed my passion all
the way through in terms of thetopics that I've studied and
(03:04):
continue to sort of follow up interms of research and education.
And yeah, as you mentioned, I'mat the moment Deputy Director of
Light and Lighting Program.
It's a Master of Science programat Bartlett in Built Environment
and Faculty of BuiltEnvironment.
From next year, I will be thedirector of this program, hoping
(03:26):
to, well, continue what it'sbringing in terms of creativity
and technology, enlightenlighting, but at the same time,
hoping to meet the nextgeneration's needs in terms of
what we actually need ineducation related to this topic.
Of course, we always have tomake things better, and this is
(03:49):
The hope is to have enoughmomentum to create this next
generation platform.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
Fantastic.
Well, I'm immediately struck bythe fact that in terms of what
you're lecturing on, it talksabout well-being and buildings.
And I'm kind of fascinated, likeas an architect, how you kind of
then moved into thinking about,I guess, the more psychological
aspects of people in buildings.
(04:15):
Where do you kind of sort ofstart from in that journey?
SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
It could go back a really longtime, actually.
I see that myself, that you'rebringing back everything to when
I started actually my journey,because initially I wanted to be
a medical doctor.
My mom is a medical doctor and Iwas really interested to follow
up that trajectory of field andwas fascinated by biology, by
(04:42):
physiology of human being, bypsychology and not just human,
like, you know, just nature ingeneral.
My dad is also like, has been isa professor in natural resources
and was always fascinated by howwe are living and how our
habitat is affected by us, howit's affecting us.
But then I was encouraged byactually a sentence my mom told
(05:03):
me to go to architecture ratherthan going to meditation.
And you know what that is.
I guess it's kind of famous.
I don't know who has said this,but it's like...
If you're a medical doctor, ifyou're a doctor, if something
goes wrong, if you do somethingwrong, it goes under the ground.
So it kind of gets forgottensomehow.
But if you're an architect or abuilding or building your
(05:24):
environment, this is stayingunderground.
So it's much more impactful.
It will affect us for years andyears or hundreds of years.
I thought, oh, okay, being anarchitect and a building, being
in the building, that I willhave more impact because I'm
actually affecting where peopleare living, which will affect
their health, their well-being,their psychology, everything,
(05:44):
because we are surrounded bythese buildings.
We live, well, these days asmodern humans, we live 90% of
our time in these buildings.
So it's affecting us from whenwe are born till when we are
passing away.
And no medication would allow usto help all the way through.
So this is a lot more impactfulway of being useful to
humankind, being useful
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
to our health.
I mean, it's fascinating thatbecause I think I haven't really
sort of sat down and thoughtabout that.
But what you're saying is sotrue, you know, and it's the
places we live and the places wework and Whatever we do, they
tend to be inside, don't they?
Particularly, you know, in thenorthern hemispheres.
(06:28):
And I think you said 90% of ourtime is indoors.
And, you know, I'm kind ofinterested because I get this
feeling that architecture andwhen people are thinking about
buildings, they kind of...
you know, will design thebuilding and they'll talk about
things like sunlight anddaylight.
(06:49):
But it will almost be anafterthought to the actual way
that the building will look andwork rather than something which
should be almost the toppriority.
So, you know, is that kind of afair assessment?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
definitely.
I mean, that's basically thewhole point of how...
sort of make the best out ofthis built environment that we
have.
We need this condition.
We have to, I mean, we havestrived for millions of years to
be able to create environmentthat is safe and allows us to
(07:24):
sort of thrive.
And we have to still continueagain, through research and
education to make it better andbetter for us.
And we know that, okay, thisarea that we've created, these
type of buildings, of course,they are safe for many reasons.
They're structurally sound andso on and so forth.
But we have to also be aware andconscious of the fact that all
(07:49):
those millions of years, wedidn't evolve in these
conditions.
We were more outside.
getting a lot of sunlight.
We were getting a lot ofdaylight.
Our body is evolved basically aspeople under the sun rather than
people in 90% indoors.
And we need to understand howthis transition, which has
(08:10):
happened really recent, isaffecting us.
Yeah, and we still don't know alot, actually.
It is only...
perhaps 30, 40 years we know,started knowing about the
circadian rhythm and how thelight is affecting that and
through our ganglion cells, alot we still haven't even
(08:32):
discovered.
So that's kind of by itselfquite scary that we are in this
condition that we don't knowmuch about how it's affecting
us.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
Look, I mean, it's really like, you know, the more
I ponder that, the more I'mlike, God Almighty, you know, we
have...
maybe walked ourselves intosituations where, you know, we
might actually be damaging ourhealth by the way we live.
You know, there's a piece ofresearch, which I think has just
been published by a colleague ofyours at UCL, which is talking
(09:05):
about LED lighting and the factthat actually LED lighting in
buildings is often suboptimal tothe point where it might be
causing damage to us.
And, you know, I think one ofthe findings was incandescent
light, you know, the old lightbulbs were actually better in
(09:25):
terms of the light that theywere giving off.
And suddenly I'm like, well, inthe race to kind of make us all
much more energy efficient, didanyone think about the law of
unforeseen consequences in termsof what this might be doing to
our health?
So to me, it was a great examplewhere people haven't done this
for the wrong reasons but thenet result may be you know
(09:48):
actually terrible for us ashumans
SPEAKER_03 (09:51):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, we are making decisionsas we know more, but of course,
at the same time, we arecreating situations for
ourselves that probably arestill unknown.
And yeah, this is also my wholepoint of emphasizing on research
and education and how importantthey are, even though I think
sometimes in a lot of contexts,their importance are being
(10:15):
neglected or not as clear for alot of people.
Research is a waste of time.
It's a luxury.
Or education.
You don't need education.
You can just better be off.
These kind of things you hear alot from many already because
you can get rich by noteducating yourself.
And just exactly what you'resaying about this example that
(10:38):
you mentioned shows howimportant is to continue having
new insights continuechallenging what we know and
changing the paradigms throughresearch and how important it is
to continue educating people sohave the right capacity to bring
those actually back to thesociety otherwise we will end up
in these loops definitely theenergy saving was an important
(11:02):
part it was a lot research butyeah of course it's not enough
that's why we need to continuethat's why research these new
insight constantly changing whatwe know is very important.
And that's, for me, that's theonly way or these two
trajectories are the only waythat we can shape our future.
(11:23):
And otherwise, we will be stuckin a situation that we might end
up not getting enough of theright light in the right time,
like if we want to talk aboutjust the light, and already that
would create in future later onconditions for us that are will
require medication etc so soit's really like why don't we
(11:46):
prevent it before it gets tobecoming a source of a problem
of obesity or cancer or whateverall these issues that we know
are from lack of proper accessto daylight and it's proven that
there are really highcorrelations with from breast
cancer to obesity to all sortsof disease diabetes to how the
exposure to light or the historyof exposure to light of those
(12:09):
type of patients have been.
So yeah, I mean, research
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
and education...
And it's kind of, if you followthe trajectory of many of these
diseases, they kind ofcorrespond in many ways to some
of the changes in our behaviour.
So, you know, we are spendingmore and more time inside.
Like I read some prettyfrightening research which says
that since COVID, the averageAmerican and Brit I think, is
(12:36):
spending two hours less outsidethan before.
Now, for many of us, we won'teven think about the
consequences of that.
But, you know, as you say, like,we need education.
So we need, you know, and Iguess a question for you is if I
was to be doing an undergraduatecourse in architecture and
building design, how much of itis about like health and
(13:00):
wellness in terms of the peoplewho are going to inhabit the
buildings you're in.
I don't know what the answer tothat is, but I'm presuming it's
not a huge amount.
SPEAKER_03 (13:12):
Yeah, you're totally right.
It's not actually a huge amountthat we have.
I mean, these things also havebeen introduced in recent years.
For example, at UCL, we have aprogram in health and
well-being, which is a result ofsame people thinking the same
issues.
And of course, thatunderstanding is there, which
comes through the research.
(13:32):
We have these insights that weare challenging these existing
paradigms.
So we are creating basis foreducating people more and more
towards this and creating thecapacity that is required to
basically roll the wheel towardsthe right direction and hoping
it will go to well I'm confidentthat it does like when we
(13:52):
started talking aboutsustainability I was a student
then and this was introducedimmediately at Chalmers in all
the modules for example in allthe educational no matter what
kind of discipline what kind ofprogram that they had to be um
In all the programs, there hadto be one module about
(14:14):
sustainability within thatfield.
And I think that already createda huge impact for our generation
to focus and really put aside abig part of what our thinking,
our projects on this topic.
And then it started rolling.
So it's really...
important to have that.
But as you said, I mean, itstill is limited.
(14:36):
It's not that we talk about itin every other program or every
other module.
How does this kind of decisionaffect our health?
And I think that should bethere.
How does this decision, howyou're making this LED, how does
it going to affect people'shealth?
How does it affect energy?
How does it affect?
So all of them have to beconsidered instead of just one
(14:58):
dimensional.
And this multi-dimensional thingThinking about the topics, I
think, is something that I'malso supporting a lot within,
for example, our own field, myfield, which is the built
environment.
There are a lot of newapproaches.
Again, this is sort of what weare...
have started moving towardsunderstanding the
(15:21):
multidimensional aspects ofbuilt environment on us.
So we know, okay, how thethermal conditions are affecting
us.
We know how the air quality isaffecting us.
We know how the light isaffecting us somewhat.
but how all of them together areaffecting us.
What are the interactionsbetween these stimuli?
And how do we have to adjustbetween them to create the right
(15:42):
environment?
And this multisensory ormultidimensional thinking is
something, again, that we aretrying to bring into our
teaching, our education, andalso our research to understand
the humans better within thisbuilt environment.
So basically...
Yeah, constantly going towardsintroducing topics that help.
(16:04):
But again, you're right.
I don't know.
The question that you posed,like, okay, how much do we teach
our students and how much do wedo focused research on this
topic?
Still minimal.
We tend to probably pay andspend a lot more of the research
money into creating medicationthat would later on help us with
(16:29):
the consequences rather thanpreventing to get to those
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
I mean, I guess that's the way the world works
is there's not a lot of money tobe had in prevention, is there?
Yeah.
But, you know, without goingdown that particular rabbit
hole, I was really interestedbecause I spoke to Nico Gentili
from Lund University, who I knowyou know, and he talked about
(16:56):
the balance between environment,financial and social as kind of
when you think about buildings,you've got those three bodies.
And, you know, the social aspecthas not been really kind of
dealt with.
So, you know, environmental, youknow, you talk about
sustainability and rightly,we're all going down a route of
(17:17):
trying to be more sustainable,but nobody's really...
thought about some of the socialimpacts of that and you know
obviously financial is kind oftends to be the one that you
know in terms of building designor whatever tends to be that the
thing which kind of leads inwhich I thought it was just a
really nice kind of way oflooking at the problem because I
(17:41):
think as you say um Yeah, wehaven't really, I mean, from
what I can see and from what I'mhearing from you, we haven't
really thought about, like,people in build, yeah, and just
all of these impacts.
And it's fascinating because itseems that UCL is really kind of
(18:01):
trying to lean into this topicand kind of cover it off.
And, you know, I guess you'vegot...
Everyone from sort ofphysiologists through to
architects who, you know, Idon't know if you all work
together, but there seems to bea very common thread.
So, and, you know, I guess theoutput of that could then bleed
out more into the mainstream,couldn't it?
(18:24):
So, sorry, there was a bunch ofthings I've said in there.
Yeah, kind of thing, you know,throw it all up in the air and
see what you kind of you canmake
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
out of it.
Yeah, I mean, the environmentaland financial aspects of things
is really like driving a lot ofthe pathways that we build, of
course.
So what we try to always say islike, make sure that the human
is in center.
So we are thinking about thehuman needs we are thinking.
So all these financial decisionsthat we are making, is it going
(18:52):
to be good for us or not?
Because That would be a drawbackif it's not, because then you
will basically lose that money.
That's the simple way ofcommunicate with the finance,
you know, so you don't want tolose that money.
We did a really interestingexercise in one of the healthy
building conferences.
It was in Aachen and it was heldby, actually, I forgot the name,
(19:13):
but it was...
Also, the UCL was involved increating this workshop, and it
was creating a setup that wewere all having, it was like a
role game, a role play sort ofgame that, okay, you're an
investor, you're a buildinguser, and you're the researcher,
and the other one is the...
(19:33):
contractor and we had and therewas this building to be built
and we need to convince eachother like what is the most
important thing in building thisbuilding so of course the
investor wanted to just get hismoney back so if he's investing
this much that's all he caredabout and we really got into
those kind of roles i wasactually playing the investor
role and i was like Anything theothers once said, I was like,
(19:56):
no, I don't think that's true.
And, you know, when it becomesmoney, then it's like, okay, I
want my money.
I don't care.
So it's kind of, it's reallyinteresting.
It was really interesting gamethat we played and very
eye-opening in a sense that, ofcourse, as a researcher or an
educator, you want the best for,you know, not that we all want
the best for everything, but,you know, that's the main drive
(20:19):
as being a researcher educator.
You want to create the bestconditions forward.
But then you have to be able tocommunicate that.
So the communication is how muchhealth or performance of a human
would be, how much money it willbring us.
So I guess that's one thing inthat kind of context to be able
(20:40):
to talk about and tocommunicate.
So can we put a price on it?
And that's really, reallydifficult.
And that's, I guess, one of thereasons probably we don't pay as
much attention to it becauseit's difficult to put a price on
it.
It's priceless.
But if we were able to say,okay, this many...
It would have been really...
SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
100%.
I mean, building a business casearound this is essential,
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
isn't it?
Yeah, it is, but it has beenvery difficult to do so because
there's so many parametersinvolved that you cannot say,
okay, I guarantee you that ifyou do this, you will get this
100%.
We cannot do that.
And that's the reason we cannotreally sell this in the same
way, even though we know that,okay, if people are healthy,
(21:23):
this will be beneficial to thatbuilding, to the owner of the
building to the employer that isgoing to basically rent that
building.
So it will all at the end bebeneficial to the investor, but
we cannot say 100% you will.
With the energy we can.
So it's like, okay, if youinstall this, you will save this
much energy, then this will bethe amount that you will be
(21:44):
gaining out of this.
But this is difficult with thehealth.
So yeah, that dilemma is alwaysthere and it's kind of an
interesting challenge.
And if we, the only thing we cansay is that this is important,
we cannot put money number onit.
And it would be really nice tobe able to at least have some
estimation.
And of course, there areresearch on that as well.
(22:05):
But it's a really interesting,for myself, it's a very, and I
hope I could do some researchrelated to that and I have that
always in mind because it's goodto have that business mind and
be able to understand how toactually make this work.
That's the point because if thebottleneck is that financially,
we cannot...
put a number on it, then we needto also address that and see,
(22:26):
okay, we have changed theparadigm.
We know that this is good forpeople.
We are educating people tocreate that capacity.
We are even creating thepolicies.
But as long as there is no moneyinvolved, or nobody wants to
still invest on it, then I guesswe are not getting anywhere.
So it's one part of the wholething.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I mean, it's interesting, because I think
it's the problem with it is thethe return on investment is
probably multi-generationalrather than, you know, one where
you can kind of, it's notsomething you could put on the
stock exchange, basically.
Like I've been doing quite a bitof reading around the subject of
ADHD.
(23:05):
Now, ADHD, 25% of the prisonpopulation in the UK has ADHD.
And, you know, I read thisfascinating research, which was,
You can predict to 96%, and thisis really fresh research from
Japan, 96% accuracy whethersomeone's got ADHD by taking a
(23:30):
picture of their retina.
And, you know, I think picturesof eyes tend to be good markers
for certain neurologicalconditions, and it happens to be
that one of them is ADHD.
Now, then, like, that took medown a little path, which was,
well, is there acorresponding...
you know if it's the eye isthere a correspondence between
adhd and and light turns outthat people with adhd they tend
(23:54):
to suffer from sad more thanjust the general population so
you can see that there's aconnection between circadian
rhythms light and adhd so goingto your question of like the
business case you could say wellactually a prisoner costs us x
amount of pounds or euros orwhatever it is and actually if
(24:15):
we could provide sort ofstimulus you know we know light
impacts people like in educationif we could stabilize some of
these ADHD people by havinglighted classrooms or whatever
it is you know and I'm justbeing so high level and you know
ridiculously simple I'm afraidaround this but You could then
say, well, actually, there is abusiness case, which is, you
(24:38):
know, we need better classroomswith more light access because
we know that that will reducethe prison population.
But the problem with that isyou're then talking about a sort
of 10, 20-year horizon andnobody's kind of interested in
that sort of thing, are they?
Unfortunately, because that is,I guess, the reality, isn't it?
(24:59):
That light has this whole new...
well, emerging topic, you cansee the relationship between us
and light is such a kind ofcrucial one to our health and
wellness.
But the problems don't show upfor years, do they?
SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what you're saying.
I think using the wordmulti-generational is perfect
for this.
That's the fact.
And that's why it's going slowlythrough gradual research that we
are doing.
I mean, research and education,it's not fast.
We need time for that.
(25:36):
It takes time.
And I'm not...
I mean, I don't...
Thank you very much.
(25:58):
the effects of built environmentbecause of the voices that we
create through education,because of the research that we
are doing.
So even though we don't knowenough, even though you hear
like bits and parts fromdifferent research groups, but
we are all, you know, working onthe right track in terms of
thinking about global health, interms of thinking about the
(26:19):
effects of built environment.
So there are some positivethings there.
There are some...
I see the light at the end ofthe tunnel.
No, I mean, that's...
And hopefully, I mean, the hopeis that we are building better
and better buildings, eventhough currently maybe that's
not the case.
And this takes generations to begoing towards what is a little
(26:41):
bit, what is more sustainableand healthier for us as humans.
And creating, and it's not justcreating the buildings, it's
also like creating the behaviorsaround the buildings that are
required.
Like how much should we beinside?
How much should we be outside?
Do we create enough spaces?
that allow us to go outside ornot?
(27:02):
How can we incorporate that inthe architecture?
So that should become sort of aphysical program of the building
that has to accommodate forthat, even though maybe it's not
necessarily cost-efficient nowfor the building investor, but
it is through what we are sayingand through this disseminating,
(27:22):
incepting into the...
newer generations or nextgenerations, I think it will
become true at some point thatwe are creating better and
better building.
The fact that you and I aresitting here and creating this
podcast is also towards that.
And I truly believe in this typeof trying to be heard and trying
(27:44):
to promote this for a largernumber of people.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Well, look, I think I am really encouraged,
actually.
And I think the fact that UCL,which is, you know, one of the
top universities globally is onthis kind of gives me great
encouragement.
Because I guess as I've beenlooking through and doing my
background research, there are alot of people out there who've
(28:14):
decided that this is a greattopic for clicks and, you know,
There's quite a voice on socialmedia around all of this.
And actually, if you go back tothe sources of what they're
saying, it's often a bit flaky,to be honest with you.
But actually being able toreference proper research, which
is peer-reviewed, published, youknow, through places like UCL
(28:39):
and the East Anglian Universityand all.
I'm really proud, actually, thatthe Brits seem to be kind of on
this.
And, you know, it's really,really heartening.
And as you say, I think thenbeing able to kind of bleed that
into the educationalestablishment and creating
courses around this or makingsure it's part of the narrative,
I think is absolutely brilliant.
(29:00):
But it also feels like we'rereally at the start of this
journey.
Like, as you said, I thinksustainability was one aspect.
But if you think aboutsustainability and the way it's
described as ESG or whatever in,the social aspect has just not
been thought about.
And I think it's, or if it'sbeen thought about, it's not
(29:20):
been thought about inrelationship between people and
light effectively.
So I think that's brilliant thatthis sort of movement sort of
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (29:30):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, going back towhat you say about UCL and
Bartlett as well.
I mean, Bartlett is, I think,ranked as the first, has the
first rank or ranked as what youcall it.
Number
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
one position.
SPEAKER_03 (29:47):
Yes, number one position in architecture and
built environment in terms ofeducation.
And you can see like, I mean,for me, I'm still discovering
like many labs and researchersthat are focusing on so many
aspects of it.
They're like, oh, I was thinkingabout that.
It's really amazing that theseguys are already putting it so
(30:07):
much forward.
So it's like really forwardthinking, many groups like
looking at various aspects ofhow the environments are
affecting us, both indoors andoutdoors.
How do we move in the urbanarea?
What are the effects of urbanarea?
And really implementinghigh-tech sensors.
around just to make thisunderstanding and how the effect
(30:30):
of the built environment interms of pollution in terms of
heat etc is on people'swell-being and behavior so we
are really monitoring this sincesince long and talking to each
other with nature discussionsabout biodiversity nature and
people what kind of vegetationshould we have around the city
(30:51):
of how it is evolving i don'tknow so so many so many topics
that you know that you just feelreally really great just to be
part of this and feel that yeahwe are on top of researchers are
really at UCL trying hard andI'm fascinated I mean I've also
joined in two years so I'mreally fascinated by the amount
of enthusiasm ambitions and workthat is being done on this topic
(31:14):
so that's why I'm quite normallyI'm not so pessimistic person
I've just started to being likeoh okay we are actually making
impact and looking you knowfeeling really optimistic that
this is going going the rightdirection and we are really
trying hard, doing verysophisticated research in terms
of understanding how to createthese environments that will
(31:35):
allow us to thrive better,prevent many of those situations
that are consequences that weare facing at the moment.
Yeah, so about UCL, I think thatnetwork is really working well
from what I'm seeing and I'mreally happy to be part of that.
And as you said, we are still atthe beginning of this.
The topic of sunlight, daylight,exposure to to it we have for
(31:58):
various reasons energy drivenmainly try to avoid it as much
as possible and of course thishas shown that it's not optimal
either we have seen theconsequences and now we are
trying to understand thoseconsequences better yeah and
Niche research, as youmentioned, from the effects of
LEDs to interactions ofdifferent exposures to
(32:21):
characterising the response todifferent exposures that we
have.
At least this is something thatI'm focusing on.
It seems really small and veryniche to just characterising the
response to the exposure that wehave.
But I believe that this littleequation could solve a lot of
the problems that we have, likehow we control the building
systems around us to betteraccount for our more natural
(32:46):
responses to the environment.
So from that point of view tohow we move in this...
or how we move outside and whichpaths are we going.
I have a student who's alsoworking on healthier paths
through the city, like how canwe map the healthy pathways.
Health and safety, of course,you want to be safe as well.
That's one part of it.
(33:06):
You don't want to go outside onyour bike and bam.
So there are certain routes, ofcourse, that are safer, that
people actually feel safer inthose because of the traffic,
because of how they are lit.
So how do we kind of promotethose?
How can we rebuild them?
What kind of architecturalelements are there that make
people feel safer there?
(33:27):
And are they healthy or not?
So what kind of exposure do youget?
Maybe it's a really nice path,but it's in the most polluted
area of the city.
Is that healthy enough to bikeor run in that pathway?
So it's both indoor and outdoor.
I mean, outdoor, if it's adensified city, just like
London, as it's this mega citythat we have.
So we have that kind of issue.
So just being outdoor doesn'tnecessarily mean that you're
(33:49):
healthy.
So So you have to pick yourspot.
So we need to kind of identifythose and understand how to
create a sort of mobility withinthis type of city that is
healthy and safe.
So, so many aspects to thinkabout.
And yeah, that makes it veryinteresting to move
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
forward.
It's brilliant.
It's brilliant.
I mean, I go back to like I'm,I'm very struck in terms of, you
know, actually one of our, oneof the solutions to many, you
know, I guess many of ourproblems is actually spending a
bit more time outside.
I mean, it's, you know, that'snot possible for everybody, but
(34:33):
for many of us actually gettingthe discipline of being outside
is, it is challenging.
is relatively simple to do.
And I think if you've then gotpeople who are able to kind of
identify safer places and, youknow, that's that fantastic
marriage of technology and, youknow, this research where, you
know, an app or something whichcan tell you a safer path or
(34:55):
something, I think is bloodybrilliant, to be honest.
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
Yeah, exactly.
That's what it, that one isgoing forward to be an app, as
you said.
At least that's the hope tocreate that kind of information,
like a data-driven informationinformative ways of how we can
be healthier and safer.
Yeah, on another note, you willtalk with Nicholas later.
(35:19):
Of course, he's focusing againon this response
characterization.
towards broader spectralunderstanding of light.
Of course, he will tell you moreabout it.
And that's more of theunderstanding of these
responses.
What are the physiological,psychological responses that we
have?
And there we are also trying toreally understand what is the
(35:42):
exposure at the personal level.
So a lot of times we makeunderstanding...
We have made understanding overyears.
I mean, we are becoming more andmore data capable and sensor
capable.
So we have to take advantage ofthese.
We have, as a researcher atleast, to understand, okay, what
am I exposed really here on mybody, not in the room?
(36:03):
Because, okay, the room is theroom, but what am I being
exposed to?
So we are using a massive amountof wearables in his studies to
understand what actually peopleare exposed to, how is that
going to affect their sleep?
And one part of it, of course,is also on your infrared that
he's really interested in, andhe will talk about it with you
(36:24):
later on.
And yeah, and I think that'sreally fascinating to be able to
lead that kind of study that wecan have a you know
statistically hopefullystatistically enough data to be
able to say something in thatrelation like what are these
impacts that we are talkingabout on the built environment
SPEAKER_01 (36:43):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (36:44):
so
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I think it's been a really really fascinating
conversation I mean every time Ithink about this subject I could
talk all day I mean literallyand I feel very honoured that
people like yourself who arespending a lot of time will
actually take the time to talkabout it I think it's a
fascinating subject though Andone that I think if we can, as
(37:06):
you say, we can get it out therewill make a difference to so
many people's lives, you know.
And I think that's great becausethis is about reconnecting
people with the sun and or, youknow, the outside environments
more generally or, you know,inside and health and well.
So, you know, I think it's beenbrilliant.
But thank you so much for yourtime.
SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure to be ableto be here today and to talk
about these various differenttopics that we talked about.
But yeah, it ismulti-generational,
multi-dimensional,multi-effective, hopefully.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Fantastic.
I'm just going to do one thing,which is, so Mandana Carney, who
is lecturer of health andwell-being in sustainable
buildings and deputy director,light and lighting program.
Sorry, because I just was not...
When I read it out, the Lightand Lighting Programme, it
(38:02):
didn't quite...
The Deputy Director, Light andLighting Programme.
Is that at UCL as well?
Yes.
Okay.
When I read it out, it didn'tquite make sense to me.
So hence I slowed down a bit,but it may sound all right.
But I'm just going to stop now.
UNKNOWN (38:20):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
I thought, oh, okay, being an architect, I will have
more impact because I'm actuallyaffecting where people are
living, which will affect theirhealth, their well-being, their
psychology, everything, becausewe are surrounded by these
buildings.
We live, well, these days asmodern humans, we live 90% of
our time in these buildings.
So it's affecting us from whenwe are born till when we are
(00:21):
passing away.
And no medication would allow usto help all the way through.
So this is a lot more impactfulway of being useful to humankind
and being useful to
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
our health and living.
LED lighting and the fact thatactually LED lighting in
buildings is often suboptimal tothe point where it might be
causing damage to us.
And, you know, I think one ofthe findings was incandescent
light, you know, the old lightbulbs were actually better in
terms of the light that theywere giving off.
(00:53):
And suddenly I'm like, well, inthe race to kind of make us all
much more energy efficient, didanyone think about the law of
Welcome
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us
with the sun.
Join us as we explore the powerand influence of our star, the
force at the heart ofeverything.
Each episode, we speak withleading experts to uncover the
ways sunlight shapes our world.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
By the way, I love the painting behind you, the
picture behind you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
The
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
moon in Louisiana, that is just stunning.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
Yeah, I really love this one.
I wish I had the actualpainting.
This is just the poster that Igot from Louisiana Museum.
Just couldn't help myself.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
It's just...
Quantalism, is it?
So it's just beautiful.
Anyway, let's get started.
Welcome to today's show.
And I am delighted to welcomeDr.
Mandana.
I hope I pronounced that right,from UCL.
And you're a lecturer in healthand well-being in sustainable
(02:06):
buildings and also DeputyDirector of Light and Light
Programme.
So would you like to just giveus a bit of an introduction to
yourself and tell us a bit aboutthe roles that
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
you play?
Yeah, thank you, Dave, for thatintroduction.
Yes, I go by Mondana Connie, butmy full family name is Sari
Connie.
So, yeah, you have all the rightto confuse that a bit.
Somehow, since I moved to UCL, Ihave turned into just the Connie
part.
Okay.
But that's how it is.
Yeah, as you mentioned, I'm alecturer at the moment in health
(02:42):
and well-being and sustainablebuildings at UCL.
My background is architecturalengineering, and I've also
studied design for sustainabledevelopment.
So basically some of the thingsthat I have been really
passionate about, so I have ingeneral followed my passion all
the way through in terms of thetopics that I've studied and
(03:04):
continue to sort of follow up interms of research and education.
And yeah, as you mentioned, I'mat the moment Deputy Director of
Light and Lighting Program.
It's a Master of Science programat Bartlett in Built Environment
and Faculty of BuiltEnvironment.
From next year, I will be thedirector of this program, hoping
(03:26):
to, well, continue what it'sbringing in terms of creativity
and technology, enlightenlighting, but at the same time,
hoping to meet the nextgeneration's needs in terms of
what we actually need ineducation related to this topic.
Of course, we always have tomake things better, and this is
(03:49):
The hope is to have enoughmomentum to create this next
generation platform.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
Fantastic.
Well, I'm immediately struck bythe fact that in terms of what
you're lecturing on, it talksabout well-being and buildings.
And I'm kind of fascinated, likeas an architect, how you kind of
then moved into thinking about,I guess, the more psychological
aspects of people in buildings.
(04:15):
Where do you kind of sort ofstart from in that journey?
SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
It could go back a really longtime, actually.
I see that myself, that you'rebringing back everything to when
I started actually my journey,because initially I wanted to be
a medical doctor.
My mom is a medical doctor and Iwas really interested to follow
up that trajectory of field andwas fascinated by biology, by
(04:42):
physiology of human being, bypsychology and not just human,
like, you know, just nature ingeneral.
My dad is also like, has been isa professor in natural resources
and was always fascinated by howwe are living and how our
habitat is affected by us, howit's affecting us.
But then I was encouraged byactually a sentence my mom told
(05:03):
me to go to architecture ratherthan going to meditation.
And you know what that is.
I guess it's kind of famous.
I don't know who has said this,but it's like...
If you're a medical doctor, ifyou're a doctor, if something
goes wrong, if you do somethingwrong, it goes under the ground.
So it kind of gets forgottensomehow.
But if you're an architect or abuilding or building your
(05:24):
environment, this is stayingunderground.
So it's much more impactful.
It will affect us for years andyears or hundreds of years.
I thought, oh, okay, being anarchitect and a building, being
in the building, that I willhave more impact because I'm
actually affecting where peopleare living, which will affect
their health, their well-being,their psychology, everything,
(05:44):
because we are surrounded bythese buildings.
We live, well, these days asmodern humans, we live 90% of
our time in these buildings.
So it's affecting us from whenwe are born till when we are
passing away.
And no medication would allow usto help all the way through.
So this is a lot more impactfulway of being useful to
humankind, being useful
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
to our health.
I mean, it's fascinating thatbecause I think I haven't really
sort of sat down and thoughtabout that.
But what you're saying is sotrue, you know, and it's the
places we live and the places wework and Whatever we do, they
tend to be inside, don't they?
Particularly, you know, in thenorthern hemispheres.
(06:28):
And I think you said 90% of ourtime is indoors.
And, you know, I'm kind ofinterested because I get this
feeling that architecture andwhen people are thinking about
buildings, they kind of...
you know, will design thebuilding and they'll talk about
things like sunlight anddaylight.
(06:49):
But it will almost be anafterthought to the actual way
that the building will look andwork rather than something which
should be almost the toppriority.
So, you know, is that kind of afair assessment?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
definitely.
I mean, that's basically thewhole point of how...
sort of make the best out ofthis built environment that we
have.
We need this condition.
We have to, I mean, we havestrived for millions of years to
be able to create environmentthat is safe and allows us to
(07:24):
sort of thrive.
And we have to still continueagain, through research and
education to make it better andbetter for us.
And we know that, okay, thisarea that we've created, these
type of buildings, of course,they are safe for many reasons.
They're structurally sound andso on and so forth.
But we have to also be aware andconscious of the fact that all
(07:49):
those millions of years, wedidn't evolve in these
conditions.
We were more outside.
getting a lot of sunlight.
We were getting a lot ofdaylight.
Our body is evolved basically aspeople under the sun rather than
people in 90% indoors.
And we need to understand howthis transition, which has
(08:10):
happened really recent, isaffecting us.
Yeah, and we still don't know alot, actually.
It is only...
perhaps 30, 40 years we know,started knowing about the
circadian rhythm and how thelight is affecting that and
through our ganglion cells, alot we still haven't even
(08:32):
discovered.
So that's kind of by itselfquite scary that we are in this
condition that we don't knowmuch about how it's affecting
us.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
Look, I mean, it's really like, you know, the more
I ponder that, the more I'mlike, God Almighty, you know, we
have...
maybe walked ourselves intosituations where, you know, we
might actually be damaging ourhealth by the way we live.
You know, there's a piece ofresearch, which I think has just
been published by a colleague ofyours at UCL, which is talking
(09:05):
about LED lighting and the factthat actually LED lighting in
buildings is often suboptimal tothe point where it might be
causing damage to us.
And, you know, I think one ofthe findings was incandescent
light, you know, the old lightbulbs were actually better in
(09:25):
terms of the light that theywere giving off.
And suddenly I'm like, well, inthe race to kind of make us all
much more energy efficient, didanyone think about the law of
unforeseen consequences in termsof what this might be doing to
our health?
So to me, it was a great examplewhere people haven't done this
for the wrong reasons but thenet result may be you know
(09:48):
actually terrible for us ashumans
SPEAKER_03 (09:51):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, we are making decisionsas we know more, but of course,
at the same time, we arecreating situations for
ourselves that probably arestill unknown.
And yeah, this is also my wholepoint of emphasizing on research
and education and how importantthey are, even though I think
sometimes in a lot of contexts,their importance are being
(10:15):
neglected or not as clear for alot of people.
Research is a waste of time.
It's a luxury.
Or education.
You don't need education.
You can just better be off.
These kind of things you hear alot from many already because
you can get rich by noteducating yourself.
And just exactly what you'resaying about this example that
(10:38):
you mentioned shows howimportant is to continue having
new insights continuechallenging what we know and
changing the paradigms throughresearch and how important it is
to continue educating people sohave the right capacity to bring
those actually back to thesociety otherwise we will end up
in these loops definitely theenergy saving was an important
(11:02):
part it was a lot research butyeah of course it's not enough
that's why we need to continuethat's why research these new
insight constantly changing whatwe know is very important.
And that's, for me, that's theonly way or these two
trajectories are the only waythat we can shape our future.
(11:23):
And otherwise, we will be stuckin a situation that we might end
up not getting enough of theright light in the right time,
like if we want to talk aboutjust the light, and already that
would create in future later onconditions for us that are will
require medication etc so soit's really like why don't we
(11:46):
prevent it before it gets tobecoming a source of a problem
of obesity or cancer or whateverall these issues that we know
are from lack of proper accessto daylight and it's proven that
there are really highcorrelations with from breast
cancer to obesity to all sortsof disease diabetes to how the
exposure to light or the historyof exposure to light of those
(12:09):
type of patients have been.
So yeah, I mean, research
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
and education...
And it's kind of, if you followthe trajectory of many of these
diseases, they kind ofcorrespond in many ways to some
of the changes in our behaviour.
So, you know, we are spendingmore and more time inside.
Like I read some prettyfrightening research which says
that since COVID, the averageAmerican and Brit I think, is
(12:36):
spending two hours less outsidethan before.
Now, for many of us, we won'teven think about the
consequences of that.
But, you know, as you say, like,we need education.
So we need, you know, and Iguess a question for you is if I
was to be doing an undergraduatecourse in architecture and
building design, how much of itis about like health and
(13:00):
wellness in terms of the peoplewho are going to inhabit the
buildings you're in.
I don't know what the answer tothat is, but I'm presuming it's
not a huge amount.
SPEAKER_03 (13:12):
Yeah, you're totally right.
It's not actually a huge amountthat we have.
I mean, these things also havebeen introduced in recent years.
For example, at UCL, we have aprogram in health and
well-being, which is a result ofsame people thinking the same
issues.
And of course, thatunderstanding is there, which
comes through the research.
(13:32):
We have these insights that weare challenging these existing
paradigms.
So we are creating basis foreducating people more and more
towards this and creating thecapacity that is required to
basically roll the wheel towardsthe right direction and hoping
it will go to well I'm confidentthat it does like when we
(13:52):
started talking aboutsustainability I was a student
then and this was introducedimmediately at Chalmers in all
the modules for example in allthe educational no matter what
kind of discipline what kind ofprogram that they had to be um
In all the programs, there hadto be one module about
(14:14):
sustainability within thatfield.
And I think that already createda huge impact for our generation
to focus and really put aside abig part of what our thinking,
our projects on this topic.
And then it started rolling.
So it's really...
important to have that.
But as you said, I mean, itstill is limited.
(14:36):
It's not that we talk about itin every other program or every
other module.
How does this kind of decisionaffect our health?
And I think that should bethere.
How does this decision, howyou're making this LED, how does
it going to affect people'shealth?
How does it affect energy?
How does it affect?
So all of them have to beconsidered instead of just one
(14:58):
dimensional.
And this multi-dimensional thingThinking about the topics, I
think, is something that I'malso supporting a lot within,
for example, our own field, myfield, which is the built
environment.
There are a lot of newapproaches.
Again, this is sort of what weare...
have started moving towardsunderstanding the
(15:21):
multidimensional aspects ofbuilt environment on us.
So we know, okay, how thethermal conditions are affecting
us.
We know how the air quality isaffecting us.
We know how the light isaffecting us somewhat.
but how all of them together areaffecting us.
What are the interactionsbetween these stimuli?
And how do we have to adjustbetween them to create the right
(15:42):
environment?
And this multisensory ormultidimensional thinking is
something, again, that we aretrying to bring into our
teaching, our education, andalso our research to understand
the humans better within thisbuilt environment.
So basically...
Yeah, constantly going towardsintroducing topics that help.
(16:04):
But again, you're right.
I don't know.
The question that you posed,like, okay, how much do we teach
our students and how much do wedo focused research on this
topic?
Still minimal.
We tend to probably pay andspend a lot more of the research
money into creating medicationthat would later on help us with
(16:29):
the consequences rather thanpreventing to get to those
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
I mean, I guess that's the way the world works
is there's not a lot of money tobe had in prevention, is there?
Yeah.
But, you know, without goingdown that particular rabbit
hole, I was really interestedbecause I spoke to Nico Gentili
from Lund University, who I knowyou know, and he talked about
(16:56):
the balance between environment,financial and social as kind of
when you think about buildings,you've got those three bodies.
And, you know, the social aspecthas not been really kind of
dealt with.
So, you know, environmental, youknow, you talk about
sustainability and rightly,we're all going down a route of
(17:17):
trying to be more sustainable,but nobody's really...
thought about some of the socialimpacts of that and you know
obviously financial is kind oftends to be the one that you
know in terms of building designor whatever tends to be that the
thing which kind of leads inwhich I thought it was just a
really nice kind of way oflooking at the problem because I
(17:41):
think as you say um Yeah, wehaven't really, I mean, from
what I can see and from what I'mhearing from you, we haven't
really thought about, like,people in build, yeah, and just
all of these impacts.
And it's fascinating because itseems that UCL is really kind of
(18:01):
trying to lean into this topicand kind of cover it off.
And, you know, I guess you'vegot...
Everyone from sort ofphysiologists through to
architects who, you know, Idon't know if you all work
together, but there seems to bea very common thread.
So, and, you know, I guess theoutput of that could then bleed
out more into the mainstream,couldn't it?
(18:24):
So, sorry, there was a bunch ofthings I've said in there.
Yeah, kind of thing, you know,throw it all up in the air and
see what you kind of you canmake
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
out of it.
Yeah, I mean, the environmentaland financial aspects of things
is really like driving a lot ofthe pathways that we build, of
course.
So what we try to always say islike, make sure that the human
is in center.
So we are thinking about thehuman needs we are thinking.
So all these financial decisionsthat we are making, is it going
(18:52):
to be good for us or not?
Because That would be a drawbackif it's not, because then you
will basically lose that money.
That's the simple way ofcommunicate with the finance,
you know, so you don't want tolose that money.
We did a really interestingexercise in one of the healthy
building conferences.
It was in Aachen and it was heldby, actually, I forgot the name,
(19:13):
but it was...
Also, the UCL was involved increating this workshop, and it
was creating a setup that wewere all having, it was like a
role game, a role play sort ofgame that, okay, you're an
investor, you're a buildinguser, and you're the researcher,
and the other one is the...
(19:33):
contractor and we had and therewas this building to be built
and we need to convince eachother like what is the most
important thing in building thisbuilding so of course the
investor wanted to just get hismoney back so if he's investing
this much that's all he caredabout and we really got into
those kind of roles i wasactually playing the investor
role and i was like Anything theothers once said, I was like,
(19:56):
no, I don't think that's true.
And, you know, when it becomesmoney, then it's like, okay, I
want my money.
I don't care.
So it's kind of, it's reallyinteresting.
It was really interesting gamethat we played and very
eye-opening in a sense that, ofcourse, as a researcher or an
educator, you want the best for,you know, not that we all want
the best for everything, but,you know, that's the main drive
(20:19):
as being a researcher educator.
You want to create the bestconditions forward.
But then you have to be able tocommunicate that.
So the communication is how muchhealth or performance of a human
would be, how much money it willbring us.
So I guess that's one thing inthat kind of context to be able
(20:40):
to talk about and tocommunicate.
So can we put a price on it?
And that's really, reallydifficult.
And that's, I guess, one of thereasons probably we don't pay as
much attention to it becauseit's difficult to put a price on
it.
It's priceless.
But if we were able to say,okay, this many...
It would have been really...
SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
100%.
I mean, building a business casearound this is essential,
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
isn't it?
Yeah, it is, but it has beenvery difficult to do so because
there's so many parametersinvolved that you cannot say,
okay, I guarantee you that ifyou do this, you will get this
100%.
We cannot do that.
And that's the reason we cannotreally sell this in the same
way, even though we know that,okay, if people are healthy,
(21:23):
this will be beneficial to thatbuilding, to the owner of the
building to the employer that isgoing to basically rent that
building.
So it will all at the end bebeneficial to the investor, but
we cannot say 100% you will.
With the energy we can.
So it's like, okay, if youinstall this, you will save this
much energy, then this will bethe amount that you will be
(21:44):
gaining out of this.
But this is difficult with thehealth.
So yeah, that dilemma is alwaysthere and it's kind of an
interesting challenge.
And if we, the only thing we cansay is that this is important,
we cannot put money number onit.
And it would be really nice tobe able to at least have some
estimation.
And of course, there areresearch on that as well.
(22:05):
But it's a really interesting,for myself, it's a very, and I
hope I could do some researchrelated to that and I have that
always in mind because it's goodto have that business mind and
be able to understand how toactually make this work.
That's the point because if thebottleneck is that financially,
we cannot...
put a number on it, then we needto also address that and see,
(22:26):
okay, we have changed theparadigm.
We know that this is good forpeople.
We are educating people tocreate that capacity.
We are even creating thepolicies.
But as long as there is no moneyinvolved, or nobody wants to
still invest on it, then I guesswe are not getting anywhere.
So it's one part of the wholething.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I mean, it's interesting, because I think
it's the problem with it is thethe return on investment is
probably multi-generationalrather than, you know, one where
you can kind of, it's notsomething you could put on the
stock exchange, basically.
Like I've been doing quite a bitof reading around the subject of
ADHD.
(23:05):
Now, ADHD, 25% of the prisonpopulation in the UK has ADHD.
And, you know, I read thisfascinating research, which was,
You can predict to 96%, and thisis really fresh research from
Japan, 96% accuracy whethersomeone's got ADHD by taking a
(23:30):
picture of their retina.
And, you know, I think picturesof eyes tend to be good markers
for certain neurologicalconditions, and it happens to be
that one of them is ADHD.
Now, then, like, that took medown a little path, which was,
well, is there acorresponding...
you know if it's the eye isthere a correspondence between
adhd and and light turns outthat people with adhd they tend
(23:54):
to suffer from sad more thanjust the general population so
you can see that there's aconnection between circadian
rhythms light and adhd so goingto your question of like the
business case you could say wellactually a prisoner costs us x
amount of pounds or euros orwhatever it is and actually if
(24:15):
we could provide sort ofstimulus you know we know light
impacts people like in educationif we could stabilize some of
these ADHD people by havinglighted classrooms or whatever
it is you know and I'm justbeing so high level and you know
ridiculously simple I'm afraidaround this but You could then
say, well, actually, there is abusiness case, which is, you
(24:38):
know, we need better classroomswith more light access because
we know that that will reducethe prison population.
But the problem with that isyou're then talking about a sort
of 10, 20-year horizon andnobody's kind of interested in
that sort of thing, are they?
Unfortunately, because that is,I guess, the reality, isn't it?
(24:59):
That light has this whole new...
well, emerging topic, you cansee the relationship between us
and light is such a kind ofcrucial one to our health and
wellness.
But the problems don't show upfor years, do they?
SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what you're saying.
I think using the wordmulti-generational is perfect
for this.
That's the fact.
And that's why it's going slowlythrough gradual research that we
are doing.
I mean, research and education,it's not fast.
We need time for that.
(25:36):
It takes time.
And I'm not...
I mean, I don't...
Thank you very much.
(25:58):
the effects of built environmentbecause of the voices that we
create through education,because of the research that we
are doing.
So even though we don't knowenough, even though you hear
like bits and parts fromdifferent research groups, but
we are all, you know, working onthe right track in terms of
thinking about global health, interms of thinking about the
(26:19):
effects of built environment.
So there are some positivethings there.
There are some...
I see the light at the end ofthe tunnel.
No, I mean, that's...
And hopefully, I mean, the hopeis that we are building better
and better buildings, eventhough currently maybe that's
not the case.
And this takes generations to begoing towards what is a little
(26:41):
bit, what is more sustainableand healthier for us as humans.
And creating, and it's not justcreating the buildings, it's
also like creating the behaviorsaround the buildings that are
required.
Like how much should we beinside?
How much should we be outside?
Do we create enough spaces?
that allow us to go outside ornot?
(27:02):
How can we incorporate that inthe architecture?
So that should become sort of aphysical program of the building
that has to accommodate forthat, even though maybe it's not
necessarily cost-efficient nowfor the building investor, but
it is through what we are sayingand through this disseminating,
(27:22):
incepting into the...
newer generations or nextgenerations, I think it will
become true at some point thatwe are creating better and
better building.
The fact that you and I aresitting here and creating this
podcast is also towards that.
And I truly believe in this typeof trying to be heard and trying
(27:44):
to promote this for a largernumber of people.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Well, look, I think I am really encouraged,
actually.
And I think the fact that UCL,which is, you know, one of the
top universities globally is onthis kind of gives me great
encouragement.
Because I guess as I've beenlooking through and doing my
background research, there are alot of people out there who've
(28:14):
decided that this is a greattopic for clicks and, you know,
There's quite a voice on socialmedia around all of this.
And actually, if you go back tothe sources of what they're
saying, it's often a bit flaky,to be honest with you.
But actually being able toreference proper research, which
is peer-reviewed, published, youknow, through places like UCL
(28:39):
and the East Anglian Universityand all.
I'm really proud, actually, thatthe Brits seem to be kind of on
this.
And, you know, it's really,really heartening.
And as you say, I think thenbeing able to kind of bleed that
into the educationalestablishment and creating
courses around this or makingsure it's part of the narrative,
I think is absolutely brilliant.
(29:00):
But it also feels like we'rereally at the start of this
journey.
Like, as you said, I thinksustainability was one aspect.
But if you think aboutsustainability and the way it's
described as ESG or whatever in,the social aspect has just not
been thought about.
And I think it's, or if it'sbeen thought about, it's not
(29:20):
been thought about inrelationship between people and
light effectively.
So I think that's brilliant thatthis sort of movement sort of
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (29:30):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, going back towhat you say about UCL and
Bartlett as well.
I mean, Bartlett is, I think,ranked as the first, has the
first rank or ranked as what youcall it.
Number
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
one position.
SPEAKER_03 (29:47):
Yes, number one position in architecture and
built environment in terms ofeducation.
And you can see like, I mean,for me, I'm still discovering
like many labs and researchersthat are focusing on so many
aspects of it.
They're like, oh, I was thinkingabout that.
It's really amazing that theseguys are already putting it so
(30:07):
much forward.
So it's like really forwardthinking, many groups like
looking at various aspects ofhow the environments are
affecting us, both indoors andoutdoors.
How do we move in the urbanarea?
What are the effects of urbanarea?
And really implementinghigh-tech sensors.
around just to make thisunderstanding and how the effect
(30:30):
of the built environment interms of pollution in terms of
heat etc is on people'swell-being and behavior so we
are really monitoring this sincesince long and talking to each
other with nature discussionsabout biodiversity nature and
people what kind of vegetationshould we have around the city
(30:51):
of how it is evolving i don'tknow so so many so many topics
that you know that you just feelreally really great just to be
part of this and feel that yeahwe are on top of researchers are
really at UCL trying hard andI'm fascinated I mean I've also
joined in two years so I'mreally fascinated by the amount
of enthusiasm ambitions and workthat is being done on this topic
(31:14):
so that's why I'm quite normallyI'm not so pessimistic person
I've just started to being likeoh okay we are actually making
impact and looking you knowfeeling really optimistic that
this is going going the rightdirection and we are really
trying hard, doing verysophisticated research in terms
of understanding how to createthese environments that will
(31:35):
allow us to thrive better,prevent many of those situations
that are consequences that weare facing at the moment.
Yeah, so about UCL, I think thatnetwork is really working well
from what I'm seeing and I'mreally happy to be part of that.
And as you said, we are still atthe beginning of this.
The topic of sunlight, daylight,exposure to to it we have for
(31:58):
various reasons energy drivenmainly try to avoid it as much
as possible and of course thishas shown that it's not optimal
either we have seen theconsequences and now we are
trying to understand thoseconsequences better yeah and
Niche research, as youmentioned, from the effects of
LEDs to interactions ofdifferent exposures to
(32:21):
characterising the response todifferent exposures that we
have.
At least this is something thatI'm focusing on.
It seems really small and veryniche to just characterising the
response to the exposure that wehave.
But I believe that this littleequation could solve a lot of
the problems that we have, likehow we control the building
systems around us to betteraccount for our more natural
(32:46):
responses to the environment.
So from that point of view tohow we move in this...
or how we move outside and whichpaths are we going.
I have a student who's alsoworking on healthier paths
through the city, like how canwe map the healthy pathways.
Health and safety, of course,you want to be safe as well.
That's one part of it.
(33:06):
You don't want to go outside onyour bike and bam.
So there are certain routes, ofcourse, that are safer, that
people actually feel safer inthose because of the traffic,
because of how they are lit.
So how do we kind of promotethose?
How can we rebuild them?
What kind of architecturalelements are there that make
people feel safer there?
(33:27):
And are they healthy or not?
So what kind of exposure do youget?
Maybe it's a really nice path,but it's in the most polluted
area of the city.
Is that healthy enough to bikeor run in that pathway?
So it's both indoor and outdoor.
I mean, outdoor, if it's adensified city, just like
London, as it's this mega citythat we have.
So we have that kind of issue.
So just being outdoor doesn'tnecessarily mean that you're
(33:49):
healthy.
So So you have to pick yourspot.
So we need to kind of identifythose and understand how to
create a sort of mobility withinthis type of city that is
healthy and safe.
So, so many aspects to thinkabout.
And yeah, that makes it veryinteresting to move
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
forward.
It's brilliant.
It's brilliant.
I mean, I go back to like I'm,I'm very struck in terms of, you
know, actually one of our, oneof the solutions to many, you
know, I guess many of ourproblems is actually spending a
bit more time outside.
I mean, it's, you know, that'snot possible for everybody, but
(34:33):
for many of us actually gettingthe discipline of being outside
is, it is challenging.
is relatively simple to do.
And I think if you've then gotpeople who are able to kind of
identify safer places and, youknow, that's that fantastic
marriage of technology and, youknow, this research where, you
know, an app or something whichcan tell you a safer path or
(34:55):
something, I think is bloodybrilliant, to be honest.
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
Yeah, exactly.
That's what it, that one isgoing forward to be an app, as
you said.
At least that's the hope tocreate that kind of information,
like a data-driven informationinformative ways of how we can
be healthier and safer.
Yeah, on another note, you willtalk with Nicholas later.
(35:19):
Of course, he's focusing againon this response
characterization.
towards broader spectralunderstanding of light.
Of course, he will tell you moreabout it.
And that's more of theunderstanding of these
responses.
What are the physiological,psychological responses that we
have?
And there we are also trying toreally understand what is the
(35:42):
exposure at the personal level.
So a lot of times we makeunderstanding...
We have made understanding overyears.
I mean, we are becoming more andmore data capable and sensor
capable.
So we have to take advantage ofthese.
We have, as a researcher atleast, to understand, okay, what
am I exposed really here on mybody, not in the room?
(36:03):
Because, okay, the room is theroom, but what am I being
exposed to?
So we are using a massive amountof wearables in his studies to
understand what actually peopleare exposed to, how is that
going to affect their sleep?
And one part of it, of course,is also on your infrared that
he's really interested in, andhe will talk about it with you
(36:24):
later on.
And yeah, and I think that'sreally fascinating to be able to
lead that kind of study that wecan have a you know
statistically hopefullystatistically enough data to be
able to say something in thatrelation like what are these
impacts that we are talkingabout on the built environment
SPEAKER_01 (36:43):
yeah
SPEAKER_03 (36:44):
so
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I think it's been a really really fascinating
conversation I mean every time Ithink about this subject I could
talk all day I mean literallyand I feel very honoured that
people like yourself who arespending a lot of time will
actually take the time to talkabout it I think it's a
fascinating subject though Andone that I think if we can, as
(37:06):
you say, we can get it out therewill make a difference to so
many people's lives, you know.
And I think that's great becausethis is about reconnecting
people with the sun and or, youknow, the outside environments
more generally or, you know,inside and health and well.
So, you know, I think it's beenbrilliant.
But thank you so much for yourtime.
SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure to be ableto be here today and to talk
about these various differenttopics that we talked about.
But yeah, it ismulti-generational,
multi-dimensional,multi-effective, hopefully.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Fantastic.
I'm just going to do one thing,which is, so Mandana Carney, who
is lecturer of health andwell-being in sustainable
buildings and deputy director,light and lighting program.
Sorry, because I just was not...
When I read it out, the Lightand Lighting Programme, it
(38:02):
didn't quite...
The Deputy Director, Light andLighting Programme.
Is that at UCL as well?
Yes.
Okay.
When I read it out, it didn'tquite make sense to me.
So hence I slowed down a bit,but it may sound all right.
But I'm just going to stop now.
UNKNOWN (38:20):
Thank you.
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