July 24, 2025 • 35 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Irina Alexandra, founder of Brightroom, shares her journey from a corporate tech environment to creating a purpose-driven social learning platform. She discusses the importance of redefining success from external validation to personal fulfillment, the necessity of personal transformation for sustainability, and the shift from shareholder to stakeholder value in organizations. Irina emphasizes the need for intentional choices and the role of individual responsibility in driving change, as well as the evolution of learning and development in the modern workforce.
Guest Bio:
Irina is the founder of Brightroom - social network for learning and development. She's on a mission to enable more fulfilling and inspiring workplaces through tech-empowered but people-led education. Contact:
www.thebrightroom.de
www.linkedin.com/in/irina-alexandra
Takeaways
Irina transitioned from corporate success to focus on personal fulfillment.
Success was previously defined by external validation and recognition.
Personal transformation is crucial for sustainability efforts.
Most people are not intentional about their life choices.
Self-reflection is key to discovering true values and purpose.
The traditional definition of success often clashes with well-being.
Organizations need to shift from shareholder to stakeholder value.
Bossless organizations require personal growth and accountability.
Learning and development must be readily accessible and relevant.
Change starts with individual responsibility and proactive contributions.
Chapters
00:00 From Corporate to Coaching: A Personal Journey
06:29 Discovering Intrinsic Motivation and Purpose
10:19 Intentional Choices in Career Development
15:11 Redefining Success in Leadership and Well-being
20:57 Understanding Self-Managing Organizations
29:52 The Future of Learning and Development
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So most of the companies, they're still changing
shareholder value alone and optimizing, optimizing,
optimizing, optimizing. And that's kind of like the way
that it works. And obviously if this is the
paradigm and, and if we also, the only thing that we care
about is financial profitability, then we don't
care about how we're achieving. That's where it can have a
(00:23):
negative impact on the environment, can have negative
impact on the individual becauseindividual is just part of the
machine that's generating this financial profitability.
And then nature also becomes part of this machine.
So we need to expand our view ofwhat we're actually trying to
achieve. Welcome to Sustainability
(00:50):
Transformations podcast where wediscuss bold ideas to drive
positive change for people, community and business.
And today's guest is people driven, reflective, visionary
and purpose LED arena. Alexandra is the founder of
Bright Room, a social learning platform helping organizations
build resilient, self LED cultures through tech empowered
(01:15):
people first education. And the key goal of our
discussion is exploring, rethinking how we learn, how we
lead and grow inside organizations, and thinking
about work culture for a sustainable future.
Thank you so much for joining us, Irina.
Your story from tech executive to psychologist and Bright Room
(01:36):
founder is powerful. What made you walk away from
that corporate success to build something radically?
Different. Thanks so much for the intro,
Enoch, and thank you for having me here.
Really, really excited for this.I mean, I need to clarify, I
wasn't tech executive. I didn't get that far.
But also the reason why I walkedaway was, well, part of it was
(01:59):
that I realized I actually don'tcare.
I don't care about this whole climbing the ladder, getting the
titles, but I was also intrinsically very competitive.
So I was kind of sucked into thechase and it, it just felt like
a game, to be honest, because it's like I was chasing
promotion of the promotion. I was trying to like lead the
(02:22):
projects the best way possible, be faster, be better and all
this kind of stuff and just camea point where I realized that I,
I don't care about any of that. I don't care about the title.
I don't care about higher salary.
I, I'd like the company. So I don't want to say anything
bad about the company where I worked because it gave me a lot.
But honestly, I didn't care about selling furniture.
(02:44):
There was just, yeah. The moment where I realized that
the parts of my work that reallygave me more meaning and more
fulfillment was helping the people on my team grow and
develop and seeing their success.
And not just like success on paper or promotions or stuff,
but just seeing their personal growth was what was giving me
more satisfaction. And that's, that's when I
(03:07):
realized that I want to step aside of corporate and try and
do more of that in larger, larger scale maybe and outside
of the company where I was doingit.
So that's that's how I came intocoaching, training and then
eventually entrepreneurship. That's great.
(03:28):
Such an interesting story about the discovery process.
So you're spoken about hitting awall with competitive burnout,
which you've teased out earlier.What did success mean to you
then, and how has it changed now?
Yeah, I think success back then was very much externally.
(03:49):
That was the best way to phrase it.
It came from the external definition of success and it
was. It came from external
validation. And I think I was a bit a victim
to external validation, be it bymy manager, be it by just like
recognition within the company. I think a lot of my identity
back then was the just my life within the company.
(04:11):
And I've experienced a bit of a identity crisis when I I stepped
away and then I was just on my own and kind of no company to,
to stand behind me or in front of me, like depending how you,
how you look at it. So it was all kind of cliched
(04:32):
success and not something that had any intrinsic meaning to me
personally. And yeah, I'm glad that I was
able to to reframe that. Although I think it's still a
process, though, I don't think that I'm fully free of the need
for external validation. It's a, it's an ever ongoing
process. But definitely see that now it's
(04:55):
I'm much more conscious, first of all, because I wasn't even
like the stuff that I'm saying right now.
It's not like back then I could really articulate it for myself
on be or be aware of like why like why am I jumping this hoops
when like honestly, I didn't have to Like even within the
company, there was no pressure for me to like do the amount of
(05:15):
work that I was doing or was theintensity that I was doing it.
It was purely my own kind of competition with myself and my
need to prove whatever somethingthat nobody really needs proof.
Yeah, it takes, it takes awareness and it takes time and
it's an ever evolving process I think to do like a more
intrinsic and have your own validation of yourself.
(05:40):
That's interesting. Perhaps I want to dig deeper
into the intrinsic, but perhaps before I do, one of the things
that I've discovered from this podcast talking to different
experts is appreciating that sustainability transformations
where we're looking at, for example, climate change and the
(06:02):
environment needs to be sustained by 2015.
And we need to take care of the environment.
But I've learned that we need people to also be sustained.
We need people to be able to survive, have a good well-being
support to be able to survive there.
So in another way of describing that is the internal
(06:26):
transformation or the people or the person transformation is so
important. So based on that aspect, I'm
curious to know how did you go about discovering that intrinsic
or the internal, what I call a validation or knowing your
purpose, knowing your values, knowing what is important to
(06:50):
you. Can you perhaps help share how
you discovered that? Yeah, I agree with you
completely. I think it all starts from the
person and I think also the reason why we're seeing so much
transformation on the sustainability front, but also
like in terms of how people liverun businesses is due to the
fact that people became more aware.
And for me personally, that happened a little bit by
(07:12):
accident. Although I was always very much
into personal development, into psychology, I didn't really
understand myself as much until I went to do my coaching, a
certification, which like, honestly, I didn't even know
what coaching was and it just Facebook ad popped up.
It was like, you know, like how the algorithm knows you better
than you know yourself. So and there was like, oh, we
(07:34):
have open door event and it looked interesting.
I felt like, OK, I'm just going to go on network, see what is
it. And then by the time it took
place, it was actually the beginning of the pandemic.
It was the kind of the first months maybe of the pandemic.
And then I realized it was actually full day event.
But luckily I didn't have much to do during the pandemic.
So I was like, yeah, sure, why not?
So that's how I discovered coaching and that's how I
(07:57):
thought like, OK, why not? I'm going to do this
certificate. I was early on in my leadership
journey back then, so I was like, OK, it cannot hurt.
It's going to make me a better manager for my team.
And that's as a process of that.I learned much more about
myself, about the values. It felt like I was living with
my eyes shut. And now I'm just opening my eyes
(08:20):
and my book to see everything somuch clearer, seeing myself,
seeing everything around me. So I think that's what's
triggered the process and it's been an ever ongoing process
since then. Just intended self reflection
and also with the support of other people.
I think it's a little bit naive to believe that you can really
(08:42):
do it on your own. I think you can do a lot on your
own. I mean, you can read a lot of
books and there's so there's so much information available out
there. But I think it does take another
human to really shine light on the blindspots and hold the
mirror to you, to the stuff thatmaybe you don't really want to
see at the moment. And that's where I think also
(09:02):
the AI is not going to get, not not going to substitute,
substitute, for example, therapists or coaches or the
things because it's wired to confirm what you already know in
a way. I mean, like, yeah, it's giving
you a lot of new information andit can refrain for you and it's
good for a lot of purposes. But the this real transformation
(09:23):
happens when you're able to lookat the parts of yourself that
you didn't and see before, and it's an ever evolving process.
Is the education system transitioning into the corporate
sector coupled with there is a general belief about how things
work? Are you finishing education or
(09:43):
apprenticeships or skills trade?You go, you start working, you
find out the people who get promoted area or business.
This is the kind of skills that these people are exhibiting.
And so there is the likelihood of just copying what others are
doing. But then probably 10 or 20% of
(10:05):
the people it works, but maybe the 8% or so I'm just coming up
with some random numbers just togive.
But for the majority, it doesn't.
And for that majority where things are not clicking, that's
where perhaps I'm curious to know from your experience, you
know, do you agree that, you know, sometimes people may just
be not intentional about their actions and choices and perhaps
(10:28):
the coaching and other aspects is one of those intentional
choices, understanding how the word really works.
I'm curious to know where your thoughts are on that.
Like if the question is, are people not so intentional about
their choices? I think 100% right.
It's I don't know if I were to put the percentage on that 99%
(10:56):
of people are not intentional about their choices and at least
up until a certain point, because I think it's very human
thing. Like if you think about it, OK,
we are born and we're being babies and I think up until
maybe five years old, this is, Ithink we are in our truest, like
this is our true selves up untilabout 5 years old.
And provided that your conditions are favourable in
(11:19):
terms of like your, your family is good, like you are not in a
like state of war or anything. So provide your conditions are
favorable up until the age of about 5:00 or so.
You are who you are. And that's why it's so useful to
come back to remembering, OK, what did really, what did you
really enjoy when you were a kid?
(11:40):
What gave you excitement? What, how were you?
Because it can give you a lot ofclues, other words, what can be
very fulfilling for you right now.
And then we'll start socializingand then we pick up a lot of
things. We start seeing ourselves
through the lens of other peoplein our lives and we try to
adapt. And it's very natural because
(12:00):
our survival depends on our parents, first of all, and then
on our social circle. So we try to gauge what's
important to them and what they want to see, and we adapt based
on that. So, and that's why like at
certain point, it's really hard to say who we really are because
we've been just trying to meet other people's expectations and
(12:21):
stay safe by doing so. And then there comes a time when
maybe you've like fulfilled those expectations or you just
notice that ultimately you're empty and everything just feels
meaningless. But that's definitely the
feeling that I had, for example,when when I was working in
corporate, everything was going pretty well, like on the
(12:41):
outside, but then I had days when I was just laying on the
couch and I didn't want to get up because it was like, what's
the point? Like everything is, it felt so
needingless. And I think you reach that point
and then you start asking yourself questions, OK, what do
I really want? Who actually am I as a person?
What is the purpose of life for me personally?
And it is a bit of a luxurious thing because you need to 1st
(13:06):
build this foundation of safety.You need to like if we look at
the muscles pyramid, you would need to have already fulfilled
the basic needs. And maybe I achieved something.
So you've also kind of proven yourself, you've, you've gotten
the, the pat on the back from your parents or whoever.
And then you can start thinking,OK, then now I'm actually strong
(13:29):
enough to go against the grain and maybe displease some of the
people in my life or all people in your life and defending what
you want to do. And, and then you start
discovering yourself. So then the process kind of is,
is getting reversed almost. And, and it's a choice.
It's a choice that you need to make.
And it's a very painful process.And I'm saying that my
(13:49):
experience, but also haven't worked.
And I mean, I'm still working asa coach and I help people to go
through this experience. And so I can also observe the
either behind the scenes of thisexperience for other people.
It's very uncomfortable, it's very painful, but also very
liberating. And ultimately we can give a
much more fulfilling and and kind of aligned and purposeful
(14:11):
life as a result of it. How do modern definitions of
success tend to clash with leadership and well-being?
Which is more sustainable? I mean, if we're talking about
like I'm, I'm guessing you're talking about organizational
success. Yeah, Career success, what
people would deem to be a successful career, what people
would deem to be a successful business, what people would deem
(14:33):
to be a successful traits that they are into and how that
clashes with well-being, where the well-being is, is either the
physical well-being, the mental health aspects or the
fulfillment that you talked about.
Are there any clashes of what the society experts in 2025 are
(14:56):
long achieving those goals? I'm curious to know.
Yeah, Yeah. I think there, there are sort of
like parallels if we're thinkingabout it on an individual level
and on organizational level. Because if we start with the
individual level, yeah, the traditional kind of norm of
success is go to school, get good grades, get a job, progress
(15:17):
in your job where student die look important, have a family,
make sure your kids are good andrespectable.
I don't know, get old, travel, die.
You know, like, I don't know, that's kind of the traditional
pathway. I feel like we are living in an
interesting time because it is we are at the point where it's
changing and there are more and more people depending on where
(15:40):
you are because there are also acultural differences there.
And just, yeah, even within one country there's a lot of
differences. But I feel like it is currently
at this this breaking point where a lot of like a
significant number of people arequestioning what this
traditional success pathway. And the more we see that, the
(16:01):
more other people are going to join them because it's it's just
it's bound to reach a critical mass, if it hasn't already.
And obviously the clash is that it's impossible that everybody
on earth wants the same thing. You know, you and I are
different people. And then if we extrapolate that
everybody's different. So clearly this pathway is going
(16:22):
to be satisfying for some people, but it's it's impossible
that everybody wants the same thing.
So then a significant number of people are sacrificing what they
really want in order to fulfill this pathway of success, or they
are pissing people off to pursuewhat they find successful
because that this is the norm that we as a society kind of
(16:43):
have created and established. And then if we look at the
organizational level, I think a similar dynamic exists there in
the sense that, well, traditionally organizations were
all about maximizing shareholdervalue, getting results with as
as much financial success with the most productivity spending
(17:04):
the least resources. That's kind of the traditional
system, which again, it's changing slowly, but this, this
way of working is still the primary way of working.
So most of the companies, they are still chasing shareholder
value alone and optimizing, optimizing, optimizing,
optimizing. And that's kind of like the way
(17:24):
that it works. And obviously, if this is the
paradigm and, and if we also, the only thing that we care
about is financial profitability, then we don't
care about how we're achieving, achieving that.
And that's where it can have a negative impact on the
environment, can have negative impact on the individual,
because individual is just part of the machine that's generating
(17:48):
this financial profitability. And then nature also becomes
part of this machine. So we need to expand our view of
what we're actually trying to achieve.
And there's a lot of great literature on that in terms of
looking at a stakeholder value rather than just shareholder
(18:09):
value. Where the stakeholders are, yes,
they are still the shareholders,but it's also the employees,
it's also the environment. Maybe there's something else
that I'm forgetting, but definitely there's three.
So, and if we define success by how all stakeholders are
feeling, I think the customer isthe first one, then we will also
(18:30):
change how we are pursuing theseobjectives because then the
success is more broadly defined and not so narrow.
And then, yeah, sometimes maybe it means growing a bit slower,
sometimes it maybe means sacrificing some profits.
But it only is a loss if you're looking at the narrow view of
success being just a shareholdervalue.
(18:53):
But if you're looking at all stakeholders value, then you're
actually, you know, you're actually successful by that
measure, even though maybe in the short term you're making
less revenue, you know? One area I've discovered with
this shareholder and stakeholdervalue.
It is a myth where those who think only focusing on
shareholder value is the only way to succeed.
(19:17):
You've studied and written aboutself managing the boss less
organizations. How do they actually work?
Yeah, maybe I'll start by sayinghow they do not work because I
feel like there are a lot of misconceptions in terms of what
they are. And the typical misconceptions
are, it's like it's, it's an anarchy.
There is no bosses. It means like, oh, there is
(19:38):
cows, There is no structure. Everybody's doing whatever they
want. That's not true.
That's not, that's not how they work.
And yes, there are no bosses, but there is leadership.
It's just the leadership is distributed and it's not held
within certain people who have been assigned find a title like
that's I mean, in in the hierarchical organization, that
(19:59):
would be that that's the differentiator.
Like who's making the final decision, right.
So it's like the the big boss isthe one who's taking the the
final shot and also is is carrying the final
responsibility in self managing organizations.
This freedom and also weight of responsibility was that is
distributed. So the leadership is very
(20:19):
contextual, fluid and it's. Yeah, let me leave with that
that just to not overcomplicate.And basically oftentimes people
also choose their own work. So instead of somebody saying
like, OK, you know, you're in the marketing department and
you're going to do this, this and that, the roles are much
more fluid there. There might not be departments
(20:41):
per SE and there are a lot of differences in terms of how each
company operates, but it's it's more like circles of
responsibility. And then people can choose what
they do at this intersection of their personal expertise and
strengths, their personal interests and the company
interests. Leadership is there.
It's just not in the hands of people who have been assigned
(21:05):
it. And it's very fluid.
And if even like an intern who'sbeen who's responsible for a
particular task, they are the ones who are making decisions in
the end of the day. And even if the founder is gonna
come to them and say no, this isnot how you do it, they have the
power to stick to their decisionand also bear the responsibility
(21:27):
of that decision later on. And it's also not unstructured.
If anything, is probably more structured than regular
organizations, because for this model to work, a lot of things
need to be in place. First of all, you need radical
transparency because if everybody can make decision and
they need to know what's happening in the company so that
(21:48):
they need to have access to all the financials, they need to
know the plans of the company. So you cannot hide any
information. And so that needs to be in
place. Obviously there also needs to be
like mechanisms for this knowledge sharing.
Then you you need a way to make decisions effectively.
It's not really like, I think, but also people maybe
(22:11):
misunderstand about these companies.
It's not decision by consensus. So it's not like, OK, now the
whole company is going to meet and we all need to agree on
something. It's it's not like that.
Like, so there are mechanism in place where the person who is
responsible for a certain task, they need to consult with people
who might be affected or who might have the knowledge
(22:31):
relevant for what they're doing,but they don't need to
necessarily listen to their advice.
So they, they, they can take it,but then they, the ones who are
making the decision and they canmake the decision that goes
against the advice as well. So immediately, first of all,
you need the process for those discussions, but you also need
like you can imagine that a lot of interpersonal dynamics show
(22:52):
up because, OK, I'm supposed to ask you for advice and you give
me advice, but then I choose notto listen to it.
So there is a certain like personal growth that needs to
happen for me to be able to, OK,I've listened to the advice and
I'm now going to make my own decision and I'm going to be
responsible for this decision. So that it needs to be personal
growth on my side, but there also needs to be personal growth
(23:14):
on your side to not be, you know, not have this hurt ego.
And oh, I gave her my advice, but she didn't listen to me.
So there are also these organizations, typically they
have processes for tensions and they deal with them much faster
than because normal organizations normally don't
(23:35):
have the process for this. People start to gossip.
There is politics, there is likecoffee, water cooler chats.
There is this passive aggressivee-mail communication where it's
like as per my last e-mail, bestregards.
So in self management, managing organizations, you can't really
afford to have that. You need to have open
(23:55):
conversations. You need to have very clear
roles, clear accountability lines, very effective feedback
mechanisms and a lot of a lot ofpersonal growth.
It's also something that, so theresearch I've done, I was
talking to founders of companieswho either started working in
that way from the get go or theyhave transitioned the company
from the hierarchical structure to self managing structure.
(24:18):
And each one of them said that alot of people are just not ready
for the system because it's not,it's not for everyone.
Like you need to, you need to beready to not just enjoy the
freedom that comes with that. Because in such organizations,
nobody's telling you what to do.Like you're doing what you think
(24:39):
is right and how you think is right.
And when. So nobody's like sitting behind
your shoulder, I'm watching you do it.
And some people might think like, oh, that's what, what a
cool organization. I want to work there.
You often type inside your own salary as well.
So you, you say, like, yes, I'm going to be paid that much.
And it might seem like a really cool place to work in, but then
(25:02):
when people start working there,they realize the amount of
personal growth that needs to happen for this to, to, to
actually work. A lot of people are just not
ready to take the responsibility.
They, they want to have freedom in some parts.
But then when it really comes down to owning the decisions
(25:22):
that you make and being responsible for it, not
everybody's ready to do that. And not everybody's ready to
receive feedback. Not everybody's ready to give
feedback to others. And even with the salary, I
remember one company was sharingthat it's a, it's a very
interesting dynamic in terms of like, OK, now you need to decide
how much you're worse. You actually need to put a
(25:44):
number on how much you think youcontribute to the company.
And you see also how much everybody else is contributed to
the company. And now you need to decide it,
it's not an easy, it's not an easy process.
And it's also not like I wouldn't know if it's a fair
process in the end of the day. Because also, if you count in
the, the fact of the gender dynamics, how traditionally
(26:08):
women and minority minorities ingeneral that like raised well,
women are raised to be humble. But then there is cultural
aspect. Again, like in some cultures,
it's virtues to be humble and you kind of need to go against
yourself to be like, OK, this ishow much are worse and this is
what I want you to pay me. And also like if you are an
(26:30):
immigrant and you come into the new country, you have a
different understanding of like salaries and all that.
There's also potential for it not to be very fair in the end
of the day. But again, there are mechanisms
to then talk about it and and discuss.
But bottom line is that it takesa lot of personal growth on
individual level, both on the employees and also on the
(26:52):
founder who, who decides to operate it that way.
Because they do need to relinquish all of the control
effectively. And they need to be OK with
people making mistakes. And maybe they know that this is
they see the mistake coming, butthey need to let it happen and
they need to let people learn from that on their own.
So there's a lot of growth that needs to happen there.
And then there's a lot of work that needs to happen just on the
(27:15):
system side in terms of like implementing this processes and
also continuous training, continuous learning and
development. Because everybody needs to know
how to provide feedback, how to receive feedback, personal
growth as mentioned. But then also they need to
understand the business because it's not enough to have the
transparency and have the accessto all the data and figures.
(27:36):
You also need to understand whatit means.
So there is this constant development that needs to happen
both on the organizational and individual level.
Traditional leaning and development and training has
been on gatekeeping of contents.It's all about sharing contents.
Before the advent of AI, where the few that had the knowledge
(27:59):
in their mind or companies that are able to have good quality
content was at the forefront. Fast forward to now, where there
is no scarcity of information, there's no scarcity of content.
Why do traditional learning and development models fail to
inspire today's workforce? Yeah, I mean, you mentioned part
of it. It's still a bit gatekeeping and
(28:19):
and a lot of companies it's HR or learning and development
managers who are deciding what people need.
And then there's the whole process behind it, right.
So they are trying to understandthe learning needs.
They are then aligning on that with the leadership.
They are getting the budget. Then they either develop
(28:41):
training internally or they workwith external providers, which
also adds like layers, layers and layers.
And then by the time that this training takes place, it's been
maybe six months easy. Like it can take more, but six
months easy. And now the question is, is it
still relevant? You know, with the, with the
speed of change that's, that's happening, I would say it's
(29:01):
going to be useless. And no, like in general, I don't
believe that learning is ever useless, but it's going to be
less, way less effective. And I've, I've experienced it
myself also. That's the first company that I
want created after leaving corporate.
And on top of to my coaching, freelancing was a leadership
development because I just realized that the leadership
development that it was existingat that time and and still
(29:23):
exists. It's just too slow.
There's a it's, it's either OK, one day, 2 day, all you can eat
buffet or there is this nine months program.
And the first one is just too concentrated and unrealistic to
like apply because it needs to come as you do real life work
and experience issues and there needs to be this supplementation
(29:46):
of structured learning or there is this this nine months
program. But then again, it's like by the
time, like I remember my own training, by the time I got to
some training on how to handle difficult conversations, I've
already had a lot of difficult conversations.
Like I've had to deal with sexual conversations in my first
months or weeks even of being a leader.
(30:09):
So it needs to be readily available.
And I think how it needs to change right now is it's more
about enabling people to make their own decisions and to learn
on their own terms through a variety of tools.
So there is not just one thing that's better than another.
It needs to be employees need tohave the access to the kind of
(30:33):
support that they need when theyneed it, and that means having
some libraries that they can just access on demand.
It also means one-on-one support.
It also means group learning because they all have different
advantages and different way that they support people.
(30:53):
And that's ultimately how it wasthen shifted from pure kind of
more traditional leadership development to Bright room
because Bright room is subscription, but for life
interactive workshop. So it's not videos on demand,
but it's, I figured, I, I thought that there is a gap in
terms of how easily people can access human LED learning.
(31:16):
And that's that's how I ultimately created it because I
thought that it just needs to bemuch more readily available and
it needs to be people driven. It shouldn't be somebody else
deciding what you need. You need to decide what you
need. And also there should be an
opportunity to opportunity for productivity.
What I mean by that is that how learning often happens right now
(31:37):
is that you face a challenge andthen also not immediately, but
sometime later, you understand, OK, training could be a solution
to this challenge. And then you kick off this
process of like looking for something and whatnot.
So there's this huge gap in between challenge happening and,
and you finding out how to solveit.
And I think what needs the buy productivity, I mean, is having
(31:59):
the opportunity to be inspired as in like seeing something that
you didn't even know existed or,or you didn't know you need it,
but you have it available and itpiques your curiosity enough.
Now you're there. So now when this challenge does
come, you actually already have the tools.
So I think this is where the corporate learning needs to go.
(32:21):
What is your final thoughts Arena to the audience who are
listening, whether at the start of their career or their
leaders, what is your final thought?
It's something that has been coming up for me lately is like
what I'm seeing on more on the employee side, what's making me
a little bit frustrated because I mean, leaders, I don't think
I'm going to say much for leaders because they're getting
(32:42):
a lot of shit anyways. Like everybody's giving them
suggestions what to do, how to be there is.
And yeah, sure, there's always alot of, they do hold a lot of
responsibility and there's always room for improvement, but
a lot of advice out there. And I think I'm, I don't have
anything fundamentally differentto offer.
But what's making me a little bit frustrated is that I see a
(33:03):
lack of initiative and leadership from people and from
like from the employees, let's say people who don't hold
official power or not in a yeah,official leadership positions.
And what I see a lot is complaining, a lot of
complaining, a lot of waiting for somebody to solve this,
(33:25):
solve that, build a better workplace.
And yes, that needs to happen. There's like a lot of systemic
needs to change that needs to happen.
There's a lot of responsibility that leaders have.
There is a lot of room for improvement.
But then there's also, I think people underestimate the
internal, the power that they have to influence the situation
(33:46):
and they don't take enough of responsibility on their own.
And I think my message would be that the change starts with you.
So it doesn't matter whether you're a leader, whether you're
just joining the workforce like 10, like it doesn't matter.
There's always your circle of influence.
(34:07):
And if you don't like something,then start by asking yourself
how can you contribute to moving, even if it's just a tiny
bit, but towards your desired outcome.
And so that that would be my unpopular opinion and a bit of
tough love. Yeah, that's a huge thank you to
(34:30):
Irina for your time, but also the incredible insights that
you've shared. Feel like there is more that we
can discuss and no doubt I'm sure we will explore some of the
further topics because we've only scratch the surface of the
key potential topics that we could have talked about Yeah.
(34:53):
Thank you so much for your time.Thank you.
If listeners want to find more of your work, here in our Where
Can they Find You? LinkedIn, I think is the easiest
way to connect with me. So find me on LinkedIn, follow
Bride Room. We have exciting things coming
up in the upcoming months. So, but yeah, but I spend a lot
(35:14):
of time on LinkedIn by virtue ofmy work, so that's probably the
easiest way to find. It I'll share Uranus links in
the description, so you should be able to find it easily
through there. So thanks once again.
Thanks. That's great.
So most of the companies, they're still changing
shareholder value alone and optimizing, optimizing,
optimizing, optimizing. And that's kind of like the way
that it works. And obviously if this is the
paradigm and, and if we also, the only thing that we care
about is financial profitability, then we don't
care about how we're achieving. That's where it can have a
(00:23):
negative impact on the environment, can have negative
impact on the individual becauseindividual is just part of the
machine that's generating this financial profitability.
And then nature also becomes part of this machine.
So we need to expand our view ofwhat we're actually trying to
achieve. Welcome to Sustainability
(00:50):
Transformations podcast where wediscuss bold ideas to drive
positive change for people, community and business.
And today's guest is people driven, reflective, visionary
and purpose LED arena. Alexandra is the founder of
Bright Room, a social learning platform helping organizations
build resilient, self LED cultures through tech empowered
(01:15):
people first education. And the key goal of our
discussion is exploring, rethinking how we learn, how we
lead and grow inside organizations, and thinking
about work culture for a sustainable future.
Thank you so much for joining us, Irina.
Your story from tech executive to psychologist and Bright Room
(01:36):
founder is powerful. What made you walk away from
that corporate success to build something radically?
Different. Thanks so much for the intro,
Enoch, and thank you for having me here.
Really, really excited for this.I mean, I need to clarify, I
wasn't tech executive. I didn't get that far.
But also the reason why I walkedaway was, well, part of it was
(01:59):
that I realized I actually don'tcare.
I don't care about this whole climbing the ladder, getting the
titles, but I was also intrinsically very competitive.
So I was kind of sucked into thechase and it, it just felt like
a game, to be honest, because it's like I was chasing
promotion of the promotion. I was trying to like lead the
(02:22):
projects the best way possible, be faster, be better and all
this kind of stuff and just camea point where I realized that I,
I don't care about any of that. I don't care about the title.
I don't care about higher salary.
I, I'd like the company. So I don't want to say anything
bad about the company where I worked because it gave me a lot.
But honestly, I didn't care about selling furniture.
(02:44):
There was just, yeah. The moment where I realized that
the parts of my work that reallygave me more meaning and more
fulfillment was helping the people on my team grow and
develop and seeing their success.
And not just like success on paper or promotions or stuff,
but just seeing their personal growth was what was giving me
more satisfaction. And that's, that's when I
(03:07):
realized that I want to step aside of corporate and try and
do more of that in larger, larger scale maybe and outside
of the company where I was doingit.
So that's that's how I came intocoaching, training and then
eventually entrepreneurship. That's great.
(03:28):
Such an interesting story about the discovery process.
So you're spoken about hitting awall with competitive burnout,
which you've teased out earlier.What did success mean to you
then, and how has it changed now?
Yeah, I think success back then was very much externally.
(03:49):
That was the best way to phrase it.
It came from the external definition of success and it
was. It came from external
validation. And I think I was a bit a victim
to external validation, be it bymy manager, be it by just like
recognition within the company. I think a lot of my identity
back then was the just my life within the company.
(04:11):
And I've experienced a bit of a identity crisis when I I stepped
away and then I was just on my own and kind of no company to,
to stand behind me or in front of me, like depending how you,
how you look at it. So it was all kind of cliched
(04:32):
success and not something that had any intrinsic meaning to me
personally. And yeah, I'm glad that I was
able to to reframe that. Although I think it's still a
process, though, I don't think that I'm fully free of the need
for external validation. It's a, it's an ever ongoing
process. But definitely see that now it's
(04:55):
I'm much more conscious, first of all, because I wasn't even
like the stuff that I'm saying right now.
It's not like back then I could really articulate it for myself
on be or be aware of like why like why am I jumping this hoops
when like honestly, I didn't have to Like even within the
company, there was no pressure for me to like do the amount of
(05:15):
work that I was doing or was theintensity that I was doing it.
It was purely my own kind of competition with myself and my
need to prove whatever somethingthat nobody really needs proof.
Yeah, it takes, it takes awareness and it takes time and
it's an ever evolving process I think to do like a more
intrinsic and have your own validation of yourself.
(05:40):
That's interesting. Perhaps I want to dig deeper
into the intrinsic, but perhaps before I do, one of the things
that I've discovered from this podcast talking to different
experts is appreciating that sustainability transformations
where we're looking at, for example, climate change and the
(06:02):
environment needs to be sustained by 2015.
And we need to take care of the environment.
But I've learned that we need people to also be sustained.
We need people to be able to survive, have a good well-being
support to be able to survive there.
So in another way of describing that is the internal
(06:26):
transformation or the people or the person transformation is so
important. So based on that aspect, I'm
curious to know how did you go about discovering that intrinsic
or the internal, what I call a validation or knowing your
purpose, knowing your values, knowing what is important to
(06:50):
you. Can you perhaps help share how
you discovered that? Yeah, I agree with you
completely. I think it all starts from the
person and I think also the reason why we're seeing so much
transformation on the sustainability front, but also
like in terms of how people liverun businesses is due to the
fact that people became more aware.
And for me personally, that happened a little bit by
(07:12):
accident. Although I was always very much
into personal development, into psychology, I didn't really
understand myself as much until I went to do my coaching, a
certification, which like, honestly, I didn't even know
what coaching was and it just Facebook ad popped up.
It was like, you know, like how the algorithm knows you better
than you know yourself. So and there was like, oh, we
(07:34):
have open door event and it looked interesting.
I felt like, OK, I'm just going to go on network, see what is
it. And then by the time it took
place, it was actually the beginning of the pandemic.
It was the kind of the first months maybe of the pandemic.
And then I realized it was actually full day event.
But luckily I didn't have much to do during the pandemic.
So I was like, yeah, sure, why not?
So that's how I discovered coaching and that's how I
(07:57):
thought like, OK, why not? I'm going to do this
certificate. I was early on in my leadership
journey back then, so I was like, OK, it cannot hurt.
It's going to make me a better manager for my team.
And that's as a process of that.I learned much more about
myself, about the values. It felt like I was living with
my eyes shut. And now I'm just opening my eyes
(08:20):
and my book to see everything somuch clearer, seeing myself,
seeing everything around me. So I think that's what's
triggered the process and it's been an ever ongoing process
since then. Just intended self reflection
and also with the support of other people.
I think it's a little bit naive to believe that you can really
(08:42):
do it on your own. I think you can do a lot on your
own. I mean, you can read a lot of
books and there's so there's so much information available out
there. But I think it does take another
human to really shine light on the blindspots and hold the
mirror to you, to the stuff thatmaybe you don't really want to
see at the moment. And that's where I think also
(09:02):
the AI is not going to get, not not going to substitute,
substitute, for example, therapists or coaches or the
things because it's wired to confirm what you already know in
a way. I mean, like, yeah, it's giving
you a lot of new information andit can refrain for you and it's
good for a lot of purposes. But the this real transformation
(09:23):
happens when you're able to lookat the parts of yourself that
you didn't and see before, and it's an ever evolving process.
Is the education system transitioning into the corporate
sector coupled with there is a general belief about how things
work? Are you finishing education or
(09:43):
apprenticeships or skills trade?You go, you start working, you
find out the people who get promoted area or business.
This is the kind of skills that these people are exhibiting.
And so there is the likelihood of just copying what others are
doing. But then probably 10 or 20% of
(10:05):
the people it works, but maybe the 8% or so I'm just coming up
with some random numbers just togive.
But for the majority, it doesn't.
And for that majority where things are not clicking, that's
where perhaps I'm curious to know from your experience, you
know, do you agree that, you know, sometimes people may just
be not intentional about their actions and choices and perhaps
(10:28):
the coaching and other aspects is one of those intentional
choices, understanding how the word really works.
I'm curious to know where your thoughts are on that.
Like if the question is, are people not so intentional about
their choices? I think 100% right.
It's I don't know if I were to put the percentage on that 99%
(10:56):
of people are not intentional about their choices and at least
up until a certain point, because I think it's very human
thing. Like if you think about it, OK,
we are born and we're being babies and I think up until
maybe five years old, this is, Ithink we are in our truest, like
this is our true selves up untilabout 5 years old.
And provided that your conditions are favourable in
(11:19):
terms of like your, your family is good, like you are not in a
like state of war or anything. So provide your conditions are
favorable up until the age of about 5:00 or so.
You are who you are. And that's why it's so useful to
come back to remembering, OK, what did really, what did you
really enjoy when you were a kid?
(11:40):
What gave you excitement? What, how were you?
Because it can give you a lot ofclues, other words, what can be
very fulfilling for you right now.
And then we'll start socializingand then we pick up a lot of
things. We start seeing ourselves
through the lens of other peoplein our lives and we try to
adapt. And it's very natural because
(12:00):
our survival depends on our parents, first of all, and then
on our social circle. So we try to gauge what's
important to them and what they want to see, and we adapt based
on that. So, and that's why like at
certain point, it's really hard to say who we really are because
we've been just trying to meet other people's expectations and
(12:21):
stay safe by doing so. And then there comes a time when
maybe you've like fulfilled those expectations or you just
notice that ultimately you're empty and everything just feels
meaningless. But that's definitely the
feeling that I had, for example,when when I was working in
corporate, everything was going pretty well, like on the
(12:41):
outside, but then I had days when I was just laying on the
couch and I didn't want to get up because it was like, what's
the point? Like everything is, it felt so
needingless. And I think you reach that point
and then you start asking yourself questions, OK, what do
I really want? Who actually am I as a person?
What is the purpose of life for me personally?
And it is a bit of a luxurious thing because you need to 1st
(13:06):
build this foundation of safety.You need to like if we look at
the muscles pyramid, you would need to have already fulfilled
the basic needs. And maybe I achieved something.
So you've also kind of proven yourself, you've, you've gotten
the, the pat on the back from your parents or whoever.
And then you can start thinking,OK, then now I'm actually strong
(13:29):
enough to go against the grain and maybe displease some of the
people in my life or all people in your life and defending what
you want to do. And, and then you start
discovering yourself. So then the process kind of is,
is getting reversed almost. And, and it's a choice.
It's a choice that you need to make.
And it's a very painful process.And I'm saying that my
(13:49):
experience, but also haven't worked.
And I mean, I'm still working asa coach and I help people to go
through this experience. And so I can also observe the
either behind the scenes of thisexperience for other people.
It's very uncomfortable, it's very painful, but also very
liberating. And ultimately we can give a
much more fulfilling and and kind of aligned and purposeful
(14:11):
life as a result of it. How do modern definitions of
success tend to clash with leadership and well-being?
Which is more sustainable? I mean, if we're talking about
like I'm, I'm guessing you're talking about organizational
success. Yeah, Career success, what
people would deem to be a successful career, what people
would deem to be a successful business, what people would deem
(14:33):
to be a successful traits that they are into and how that
clashes with well-being, where the well-being is, is either the
physical well-being, the mental health aspects or the
fulfillment that you talked about.
Are there any clashes of what the society experts in 2025 are
(14:56):
long achieving those goals? I'm curious to know.
Yeah, Yeah. I think there, there are sort of
like parallels if we're thinkingabout it on an individual level
and on organizational level. Because if we start with the
individual level, yeah, the traditional kind of norm of
success is go to school, get good grades, get a job, progress
(15:17):
in your job where student die look important, have a family,
make sure your kids are good andrespectable.
I don't know, get old, travel, die.
You know, like, I don't know, that's kind of the traditional
pathway. I feel like we are living in an
interesting time because it is we are at the point where it's
changing and there are more and more people depending on where
(15:40):
you are because there are also acultural differences there.
And just, yeah, even within one country there's a lot of
differences. But I feel like it is currently
at this this breaking point where a lot of like a
significant number of people arequestioning what this
traditional success pathway. And the more we see that, the
(16:01):
more other people are going to join them because it's it's just
it's bound to reach a critical mass, if it hasn't already.
And obviously the clash is that it's impossible that everybody
on earth wants the same thing. You know, you and I are
different people. And then if we extrapolate that
everybody's different. So clearly this pathway is going
(16:22):
to be satisfying for some people, but it's it's impossible
that everybody wants the same thing.
So then a significant number of people are sacrificing what they
really want in order to fulfill this pathway of success, or they
are pissing people off to pursuewhat they find successful
because that this is the norm that we as a society kind of
(16:43):
have created and established. And then if we look at the
organizational level, I think a similar dynamic exists there in
the sense that, well, traditionally organizations were
all about maximizing shareholdervalue, getting results with as
as much financial success with the most productivity spending
(17:04):
the least resources. That's kind of the traditional
system, which again, it's changing slowly, but this, this
way of working is still the primary way of working.
So most of the companies, they are still chasing shareholder
value alone and optimizing, optimizing, optimizing,
optimizing. And that's kind of like the way
(17:24):
that it works. And obviously, if this is the
paradigm and, and if we also, the only thing that we care
about is financial profitability, then we don't
care about how we're achieving, achieving that.
And that's where it can have a negative impact on the
environment, can have negative impact on the individual,
because individual is just part of the machine that's generating
(17:48):
this financial profitability. And then nature also becomes
part of this machine. So we need to expand our view of
what we're actually trying to achieve.
And there's a lot of great literature on that in terms of
looking at a stakeholder value rather than just shareholder
(18:09):
value. Where the stakeholders are, yes,
they are still the shareholders,but it's also the employees,
it's also the environment. Maybe there's something else
that I'm forgetting, but definitely there's three.
So, and if we define success by how all stakeholders are
feeling, I think the customer isthe first one, then we will also
(18:30):
change how we are pursuing theseobjectives because then the
success is more broadly defined and not so narrow.
And then, yeah, sometimes maybe it means growing a bit slower,
sometimes it maybe means sacrificing some profits.
But it only is a loss if you're looking at the narrow view of
success being just a shareholdervalue.
(18:53):
But if you're looking at all stakeholders value, then you're
actually, you know, you're actually successful by that
measure, even though maybe in the short term you're making
less revenue, you know? One area I've discovered with
this shareholder and stakeholdervalue.
It is a myth where those who think only focusing on
shareholder value is the only way to succeed.
(19:17):
You've studied and written aboutself managing the boss less
organizations. How do they actually work?
Yeah, maybe I'll start by sayinghow they do not work because I
feel like there are a lot of misconceptions in terms of what
they are. And the typical misconceptions
are, it's like it's, it's an anarchy.
There is no bosses. It means like, oh, there is
(19:38):
cows, There is no structure. Everybody's doing whatever they
want. That's not true.
That's not, that's not how they work.
And yes, there are no bosses, but there is leadership.
It's just the leadership is distributed and it's not held
within certain people who have been assigned find a title like
that's I mean, in in the hierarchical organization, that
(19:59):
would be that that's the differentiator.
Like who's making the final decision, right.
So it's like the the big boss isthe one who's taking the the
final shot and also is is carrying the final
responsibility in self managing organizations.
This freedom and also weight of responsibility was that is
distributed. So the leadership is very
(20:19):
contextual, fluid and it's. Yeah, let me leave with that
that just to not overcomplicate.And basically oftentimes people
also choose their own work. So instead of somebody saying
like, OK, you know, you're in the marketing department and
you're going to do this, this and that, the roles are much
more fluid there. There might not be departments
(20:41):
per SE and there are a lot of differences in terms of how each
company operates, but it's it's more like circles of
responsibility. And then people can choose what
they do at this intersection of their personal expertise and
strengths, their personal interests and the company
interests. Leadership is there.
It's just not in the hands of people who have been assigned
(21:05):
it. And it's very fluid.
And if even like an intern who'sbeen who's responsible for a
particular task, they are the ones who are making decisions in
the end of the day. And even if the founder is gonna
come to them and say no, this isnot how you do it, they have the
power to stick to their decisionand also bear the responsibility
(21:27):
of that decision later on. And it's also not unstructured.
If anything, is probably more structured than regular
organizations, because for this model to work, a lot of things
need to be in place. First of all, you need radical
transparency because if everybody can make decision and
they need to know what's happening in the company so that
(21:48):
they need to have access to all the financials, they need to
know the plans of the company. So you cannot hide any
information. And so that needs to be in
place. Obviously there also needs to be
like mechanisms for this knowledge sharing.
Then you you need a way to make decisions effectively.
It's not really like, I think, but also people maybe
(22:11):
misunderstand about these companies.
It's not decision by consensus. So it's not like, OK, now the
whole company is going to meet and we all need to agree on
something. It's it's not like that.
Like, so there are mechanism in place where the person who is
responsible for a certain task, they need to consult with people
who might be affected or who might have the knowledge
(22:31):
relevant for what they're doing,but they don't need to
necessarily listen to their advice.
So they, they, they can take it,but then they, the ones who are
making the decision and they canmake the decision that goes
against the advice as well. So immediately, first of all,
you need the process for those discussions, but you also need
like you can imagine that a lot of interpersonal dynamics show
(22:52):
up because, OK, I'm supposed to ask you for advice and you give
me advice, but then I choose notto listen to it.
So there is a certain like personal growth that needs to
happen for me to be able to, OK,I've listened to the advice and
I'm now going to make my own decision and I'm going to be
responsible for this decision. So that it needs to be personal
growth on my side, but there also needs to be personal growth
(23:14):
on your side to not be, you know, not have this hurt ego.
And oh, I gave her my advice, but she didn't listen to me.
So there are also these organizations, typically they
have processes for tensions and they deal with them much faster
than because normal organizations normally don't
(23:35):
have the process for this. People start to gossip.
There is politics, there is likecoffee, water cooler chats.
There is this passive aggressivee-mail communication where it's
like as per my last e-mail, bestregards.
So in self management, managing organizations, you can't really
afford to have that. You need to have open
(23:55):
conversations. You need to have very clear
roles, clear accountability lines, very effective feedback
mechanisms and a lot of a lot ofpersonal growth.
It's also something that, so theresearch I've done, I was
talking to founders of companieswho either started working in
that way from the get go or theyhave transitioned the company
from the hierarchical structure to self managing structure.
(24:18):
And each one of them said that alot of people are just not ready
for the system because it's not,it's not for everyone.
Like you need to, you need to beready to not just enjoy the
freedom that comes with that. Because in such organizations,
nobody's telling you what to do.Like you're doing what you think
(24:39):
is right and how you think is right.
And when. So nobody's like sitting behind
your shoulder, I'm watching you do it.
And some people might think like, oh, that's what, what a
cool organization. I want to work there.
You often type inside your own salary as well.
So you, you say, like, yes, I'm going to be paid that much.
And it might seem like a really cool place to work in, but then
(25:02):
when people start working there,they realize the amount of
personal growth that needs to happen for this to, to, to
actually work. A lot of people are just not
ready to take the responsibility.
They, they want to have freedom in some parts.
But then when it really comes down to owning the decisions
(25:22):
that you make and being responsible for it, not
everybody's ready to do that. And not everybody's ready to
receive feedback. Not everybody's ready to give
feedback to others. And even with the salary, I
remember one company was sharingthat it's a, it's a very
interesting dynamic in terms of like, OK, now you need to decide
how much you're worse. You actually need to put a
(25:44):
number on how much you think youcontribute to the company.
And you see also how much everybody else is contributed to
the company. And now you need to decide it,
it's not an easy, it's not an easy process.
And it's also not like I wouldn't know if it's a fair
process in the end of the day. Because also, if you count in
the, the fact of the gender dynamics, how traditionally
(26:08):
women and minority minorities ingeneral that like raised well,
women are raised to be humble. But then there is cultural
aspect. Again, like in some cultures,
it's virtues to be humble and you kind of need to go against
yourself to be like, OK, this ishow much are worse and this is
what I want you to pay me. And also like if you are an
(26:30):
immigrant and you come into the new country, you have a
different understanding of like salaries and all that.
There's also potential for it not to be very fair in the end
of the day. But again, there are mechanisms
to then talk about it and and discuss.
But bottom line is that it takesa lot of personal growth on
individual level, both on the employees and also on the
(26:52):
founder who, who decides to operate it that way.
Because they do need to relinquish all of the control
effectively. And they need to be OK with
people making mistakes. And maybe they know that this is
they see the mistake coming, butthey need to let it happen and
they need to let people learn from that on their own.
So there's a lot of growth that needs to happen there.
And then there's a lot of work that needs to happen just on the
(27:15):
system side in terms of like implementing this processes and
also continuous training, continuous learning and
development. Because everybody needs to know
how to provide feedback, how to receive feedback, personal
growth as mentioned. But then also they need to
understand the business because it's not enough to have the
transparency and have the accessto all the data and figures.
(27:36):
You also need to understand whatit means.
So there is this constant development that needs to happen
both on the organizational and individual level.
Traditional leaning and development and training has
been on gatekeeping of contents.It's all about sharing contents.
Before the advent of AI, where the few that had the knowledge
(27:59):
in their mind or companies that are able to have good quality
content was at the forefront. Fast forward to now, where there
is no scarcity of information, there's no scarcity of content.
Why do traditional learning and development models fail to
inspire today's workforce? Yeah, I mean, you mentioned part
of it. It's still a bit gatekeeping and
(28:19):
and a lot of companies it's HR or learning and development
managers who are deciding what people need.
And then there's the whole process behind it, right.
So they are trying to understandthe learning needs.
They are then aligning on that with the leadership.
They are getting the budget. Then they either develop
(28:41):
training internally or they workwith external providers, which
also adds like layers, layers and layers.
And then by the time that this training takes place, it's been
maybe six months easy. Like it can take more, but six
months easy. And now the question is, is it
still relevant? You know, with the, with the
speed of change that's, that's happening, I would say it's
(29:01):
going to be useless. And no, like in general, I don't
believe that learning is ever useless, but it's going to be
less, way less effective. And I've, I've experienced it
myself also. That's the first company that I
want created after leaving corporate.
And on top of to my coaching, freelancing was a leadership
development because I just realized that the leadership
development that it was existingat that time and and still
(29:23):
exists. It's just too slow.
There's a it's, it's either OK, one day, 2 day, all you can eat
buffet or there is this nine months program.
And the first one is just too concentrated and unrealistic to
like apply because it needs to come as you do real life work
and experience issues and there needs to be this supplementation
(29:46):
of structured learning or there is this this nine months
program. But then again, it's like by the
time, like I remember my own training, by the time I got to
some training on how to handle difficult conversations, I've
already had a lot of difficult conversations.
Like I've had to deal with sexual conversations in my first
months or weeks even of being a leader.
(30:09):
So it needs to be readily available.
And I think how it needs to change right now is it's more
about enabling people to make their own decisions and to learn
on their own terms through a variety of tools.
So there is not just one thing that's better than another.
It needs to be employees need tohave the access to the kind of
(30:33):
support that they need when theyneed it, and that means having
some libraries that they can just access on demand.
It also means one-on-one support.
It also means group learning because they all have different
advantages and different way that they support people.
(30:53):
And that's ultimately how it wasthen shifted from pure kind of
more traditional leadership development to Bright room
because Bright room is subscription, but for life
interactive workshop. So it's not videos on demand,
but it's, I figured, I, I thought that there is a gap in
terms of how easily people can access human LED learning.
(31:16):
And that's that's how I ultimately created it because I
thought that it just needs to bemuch more readily available and
it needs to be people driven. It shouldn't be somebody else
deciding what you need. You need to decide what you
need. And also there should be an
opportunity to opportunity for productivity.
What I mean by that is that how learning often happens right now
(31:37):
is that you face a challenge andthen also not immediately, but
sometime later, you understand, OK, training could be a solution
to this challenge. And then you kick off this
process of like looking for something and whatnot.
So there's this huge gap in between challenge happening and,
and you finding out how to solveit.
And I think what needs the buy productivity, I mean, is having
(31:59):
the opportunity to be inspired as in like seeing something that
you didn't even know existed or,or you didn't know you need it,
but you have it available and itpiques your curiosity enough.
Now you're there. So now when this challenge does
come, you actually already have the tools.
So I think this is where the corporate learning needs to go.
(32:21):
What is your final thoughts Arena to the audience who are
listening, whether at the start of their career or their
leaders, what is your final thought?
It's something that has been coming up for me lately is like
what I'm seeing on more on the employee side, what's making me
a little bit frustrated because I mean, leaders, I don't think
I'm going to say much for leaders because they're getting
(32:42):
a lot of shit anyways. Like everybody's giving them
suggestions what to do, how to be there is.
And yeah, sure, there's always alot of, they do hold a lot of
responsibility and there's always room for improvement, but
a lot of advice out there. And I think I'm, I don't have
anything fundamentally differentto offer.
But what's making me a little bit frustrated is that I see a
(33:03):
lack of initiative and leadership from people and from
like from the employees, let's say people who don't hold
official power or not in a yeah,official leadership positions.
And what I see a lot is complaining, a lot of
complaining, a lot of waiting for somebody to solve this,
(33:25):
solve that, build a better workplace.
And yes, that needs to happen. There's like a lot of systemic
needs to change that needs to happen.
There's a lot of responsibility that leaders have.
There is a lot of room for improvement.
But then there's also, I think people underestimate the
internal, the power that they have to influence the situation
(33:46):
and they don't take enough of responsibility on their own.
And I think my message would be that the change starts with you.
So it doesn't matter whether you're a leader, whether you're
just joining the workforce like 10, like it doesn't matter.
There's always your circle of influence.
(34:07):
And if you don't like something,then start by asking yourself
how can you contribute to moving, even if it's just a tiny
bit, but towards your desired outcome.
And so that that would be my unpopular opinion and a bit of
tough love. Yeah, that's a huge thank you to
(34:30):
Irina for your time, but also the incredible insights that
you've shared. Feel like there is more that we
can discuss and no doubt I'm sure we will explore some of the
further topics because we've only scratch the surface of the
key potential topics that we could have talked about Yeah.
(34:53):
Thank you so much for your time.Thank you.
If listeners want to find more of your work, here in our Where
Can they Find You? LinkedIn, I think is the easiest
way to connect with me. So find me on LinkedIn, follow
Bride Room. We have exciting things coming
up in the upcoming months. So, but yeah, but I spend a lot
(35:14):
of time on LinkedIn by virtue ofmy work, so that's probably the
easiest way to find. It I'll share Uranus links in
the description, so you should be able to find it easily
through there. So thanks once again.
Thanks. That's great.
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