June 2, 2025 • 30 mins
Julia Bird is a poet whose collections include Hannah and the Monk and Twenty-Four Seven Blossom, and two illustrated pamphlets from The Emma Press: Now You Can Look and Is, Thinks Pearl. Her poetry is known for its cinematic sweep, surreal detail and inventive humour.
Julia has also collaborated with artist Mike Sims on projects including Paper Trail and A Joy Forever: a walk out with John Keats, blending poetry with visual art to reimagine poetic heritage and everyday life.
Find out more juliabird.wordpress.com
Tarot Interviews credits
- Host and producer: Finbarre Snarey
- Theme music composer: Amelia Lawn
- Additional music: Nicola Snarey
- Cover art: Rein G
If you enjoy Tarot Interviews, you may also like Tarot DMs by Finbarre Snarey. a companion series where guests chat entirely by messenger apps and draw three cards to shape the conversation.
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The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Finbarre Snarey (00:19):
Tarot Interviews.
Welcome to Tarot Interviews,where we explore the creative
mind shaping literature, filmand storytelling through the
power of the cards.
Today I'm honoured to welcomeJulia Bird, a writer whose work
(00:41):
brings together memory, placeand imagination in striking ways
.
Today we'll be exploring hercreative journey, the
inspirations behind her work andthe evolving landscape of
contemporary poetry.
Hello, julia, can you hear meokay?
Julia Bird (00:55):
I can yes, yeah, all good.
Finbarre Snarey (00:57):
Oh, I'm Fin Hi.
Julia Bird (00:59):
Nice to meet you.
Finbarre Snarey (01:00):
My wife said Julia Bird, as in Julia Bird the
poet, and I said yes, her workis way above my head.
I don't quite understand it,but I know she mentioned there
was a poem I think it's calledum 14, a text message poem from
2001 that you wrote.
Julia Bird (01:15):
Yes, that is from a very long time ago.
Finbarre Snarey (01:18):
Yes, yeah and it's part of her course material
.
She teaches it on a regularbasis please pass on my thanks
absolutely, absolutely.
But yes, she's currentlydownstairs with the kids.
Hopefully they won't be makingtoo much noise.
Um, it's a day of, um, I thinkit's Minecraft and painting.
Julia Bird (01:36):
That's what they're up to down there we should all
be doing some, some of that oh,yeah, yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (01:40):
How's your sunday?
Julia Bird (01:42):
it's peaceful so far .
I had, um, a busy day yesterday.
I'm working on a micropublishing project uh with a
friend, so we were doing lots ofwork towards that.
And then today so far I have uhlistened to the radcliffe and
mcconnie show and I've read athree week old issue of the tls,
so that's that feels quitestandard for sunday okay, yeah,
(02:04):
um, yeah, what did I do?
Finbarre Snarey (02:06):
It's just been housework for me, because it's
that thing of you get up on aSunday and it's right.
Right, I've got a podcast laterand then I've got another
interview in the evening, soeverything has to get sorted in
the morning, so it's justwashing, scrubbing, cleaning and
, yeah, yeah, my chance to relax.
Okay, so what we do is we pickthree cards.
What I I do is, depending onthe card that comes out, I'll
pose you a question Do you haveany cards yourself?
Julia Bird (02:28):
I do.
Yes, yeah, I've got a full setand then I've got a heart.
You know the set, that's justthe major cards.
That's designed by, I think,sophie Holloway I think I'll
have to check the name of thatperson and then I have an app on
my phone, so I have a dailycard on my phone.
Finbarre Snarey (02:45):
Wow, Okay.
Well, today we're just usingthe.
I say just, you know theclassic Rider Waite, and these
are the teeny, tiny little ones,the centenary deck, Because I
did have, I've had a deck mostof my life since I want to say
1995.
So that was what 10 years ago.
Julia Bird (03:05):
Yes, barely last week, that was.
Finbarre Snarey (03:07):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and the deck that I
have is huge, so while I'm onair, I guarantee I'll drop them,
whereas this teeny, tiny littledeck that I've got is just so.
I don't know if you're the kindof person who sort of sits
there and needs to fiddle withsomething, pick something up,
play with a pencil, whatever.
This deck is the perfect fiddletoy.
So the last couple of weeks,I've just been, you know, in
(03:30):
meetings, probably doingsomething far more important.
I've just been sat hereshuffling cards, so they have
been well shuffled.
For some reason, though, likefor the last four interviews
that I've done, uh, pentaclecards really want to show
themselves right major arcana,not so much.
So to see what you'll get today,okay, yeah, what were your
(03:52):
thoughts when you saw about thepodcast?
Julia Bird (03:53):
Anyway, well, I think I think it's because I'm
quite new to Bluesky and I'mjust trying to sort of rebuild
some sort of social mediacommunity after um backpedaling
from from twitter um, which Iloved, and in the early days I
found it a really sort of cheery, inspiring, slightly madcap
(04:15):
world that I made um sort oflots of inroads into finding
things out that I didn't knowbefore, or just, you know, just
being entertained and I reallymiss that I, I really miss that
sort of little, sort ofwhimsical sight of dopamine.
So, as I was trying to rebuildthis Blues ky community,
following all sorts of peopleand thoughts that sounded
(04:37):
interesting, I came across yourpost and it sort of coincided
post and it sort of coincided.
You know, I'm not I, I don'thave a in-depth tarot practice,
but I am interested in.
I am interested in it as a, asa way to surface opposing
thoughts to, to the way thatyour brain sort of uh wants to
follow its accustomed pathways.
(04:58):
I find it a good way to justlike kick myself out of those
ruts.
So I thought, oh, that's aninteresting combination of a
person.
I don't know practice I'minterested in.
Let's drop an email, see whathappens oh, thank you so much.
Finbarre Snarey (05:10):
Yeah, I must say that I think I joined
twitter twitter in 2007.
It was in the early days.
I know this is kind of like youknow way back when, you know
when, when fields were green andall the rest of it was all
fields yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I must say in the early daysit I made so many friends and
you know kind of weird littlethings came up, like a friend of
(05:30):
mine was doing a study into whotakes biscuits from a staff
room.
If you leave a plate down, whotakes the biscuits and which
biscuits are taken.
This was a scientific study.
That was done, yeah, and I gotpaid to do it.
I got paid to talk about myfavorite biscuits.
I got something like 200 quidfor a few minutes work and
things like that were popping upand it was just this wonderful
(05:51):
place of wonder.
And now it I mean I've said inprevious interviews it's like
looking under a paving slab,it's just, it's grim.
Julia Bird (05:58):
It pains me.
I've stopped posting.
I occasionally lurk and seewhat's happening and it's all
terrible.
My best experience was Iaccidentally founded a global
book club based on the Dark IsRising, the Susan Cooper book.
Robert McFarlane, the writerwith a far greater reach than I,
posted a picture of the coverof the 70s or 80s edition of
(06:22):
this children's novel, which iswhat I had when I was a kid and
was such a rush of uh, sort ofpleasurable familiarity.
I said, oh, we should.
We should form a book club, atwitter book club, around this
book.
And he said, yeah, all right,then how do we do that?
And it just took on a completelife of its own.
Um, it was before the pandemic,so, you know, maybe five years
ago, five, six years ago, andthe book takes place during the
(06:46):
period midwinter to twelfthnight, so it's a very sort of
discrete time that you can readthe book in real time.
And so that's what we did.
We sort of, you know, putprompts and thoughts and
analysis and had thousands andthousands of people all over the
world joining in, peoplejoining in with their kids,
people also making artwork andmusic in response to this novel,
and it was glorious, and thosedays I miss.
Finbarre Snarey (07:11):
You've just reminded me of.
I've not read the story, but Idid hear that I think Radio 4
did a dramatization.
It sounded so good, especiallyin stereo as well, and it did
give me flashbacks of um dayswhen childhood books were a
little more grotesque and alittle harder to read and a
little bit more grim, but somuch more fun.
(07:33):
Um, things like um, you knowthe box of delights which came
out in the 80s as well.
Yeah, it was such a nostalgictrip.
Julia Bird (07:40):
I did love that story yeah well, I recommend
reading uh, the dark is risingbecause it's really scary.
It's a kid's book, but it is.
Finbarre Snarey (07:47):
It's properly life or death scary I have your
cards in my hand, right?
I'm just shuffling away, sohopefully you can see that card
uh, it's reversed looks.
Julia Bird (08:01):
Five of swords, no page of swords page of swords.
Finbarre Snarey (08:05):
What are your impressions from looking at that
?
Julia Bird (08:09):
Isn't a page card, one that sort of tells you to
get ready for something?
What I'm looking at and it'sreversed, so that might have, uh
uh, an effect on myinterpretation.
So it's a figure in a sort ofmedieval outfit, very fetching
yellow tights and red boots.
Got a bit of Shakespeare in hewas a big lover of the yellow
(08:29):
stockings, wasn't he?
Standing with a single swordraised on a sort of a bit of
rolling countryside and when Isee rolling countryside it's
obviously Gloucestershire, whichis where I'm from.
There's a blue hill in thebackground, so that makes me
think of Dennis Potter.
There's a blue hill in thebackground, so that makes me
think of Dennis Potter and BlueRemembered Hills.
It's very literary what'scoming through, and then
standing in front of a big, blue, fluffy cloudscape blue and
(08:53):
white fluffy cloudscape of thesort that we haven't seen for a
good number of weeks and thefigure has got their sword
raised, as if they are about toeither chop somebody or they are
rallying somebody, rallying acrowd, an unseen crowd to follow
them.
That's what I'm thinking.
Yeah, quite like, let's go withthe rallying rather than
chopping well, what we'll do iswe'll use um.
Finbarre Snarey (09:16):
I don't know whereabouts in the world you are
in relation to me, so let's usethe um, the upright definition
for this card.
No, that tends to be morepositive as well.
We we need some of that in 2025, I think.
Julia Bird (09:26):
I'm in South London.
Finbarre Snarey (09:27):
Oh right, this card normally indicates a
message or important news comingyour way, often in the form of
ideas, conversations or writtencommunications.
So you need to stay alert andbe ready to adapt to changing
circumstances.
Oh, change in 2025.
Julia Bird (09:44):
Well, that's probably a standard bit of good
advice, that is, and be ready toadapt to changing circumstances
.
Oh, change in 2025.
Well, that's probably astandard bit of good advice.
Finbarre Snarey (09:50):
That is so.
The question I'll take fromthat is what new ideas or areas
of knowledge are you currentlyexploring?
Julia Bird (09:57):
I mean a relatively new job that is a specific area.
So I'm an arts administrator,that's how I learned my living
and I'm in a relatively new jobthat is exploring a specific
area.
So I'm an arts administrator,that's how I earn my living and
I'm in a relatively new job thatis exploring a specific aspect
of arts administration that Ihaven't really focused in depth
on before.
So there is a lot that you know.
It's been a year of learningthat that's definitely coming
through.
So I think it sort of itdescribes.
(10:20):
It feels like it links to thecurrent state of where I am at
the moment.
Whether it describes, it feelslike it links to the current
state of where I am at themoment, whether it's whether
it's speaking about what thefuture might be, I'm not quite
sure feels like an analysis ofwhere I am right now rather and
this is what you need to takewith you okay, so creatively.
Finbarre Snarey (10:36):
So I mean the card that is is looking at
messages or important newscoming your way, form of ideas,
conversations, rightcommunication telling you that
you need to stay alert, all ofthose things.
Have you been inspired byrecent events creatively and if
so, what's popped up?
Julia Bird (10:53):
What's popped up.
So I'm coming to the end of abig project that I've been
working on for about seven yearsreally, which is a poetry
collection, which is to do withresponding to a set of prompts
or set of questions.
I might talk about that more inmore detail maybe later.
I really feel that there's asort of winding up energy in
(11:16):
that now just telling me youknow, got to finish this, finish
this one, get it out into theworld.
There's the inklings ofsomething new that I mentioned
the publishing project that I'mworking on with a friend.
We're publishing 25 micro booksand I might have one of those
titles to fill and I'm thinkingabout what I might do with the
idea of the bestiary uh, abestiary.
Finbarre Snarey (11:38):
Did you say bestiary?
Julia Bird (11:39):
Yeah, all the animals I write about will be
barely there.
That, if that, if that makessense.
That's the idea.
That's sort of bubbling at themoment.
Just you know, I don't want togo and write a poem about a
hippopotamus or a or anporcupine.
They're going to be somethingthat's much more elusive and
barely perceptible.
(12:00):
Um, so that's that's the idea,that's the new idea that is just
beginning to sort of form outof the clouds, form out of the
clouds that I can see in thepage of swords there so I'm
fascinated by these, um by thehint of these shadow creatures.
Finbarre Snarey (12:13):
Are they real creatures from the physical
realm, or are they slightly morefantastical?
Julia Bird (12:18):
I, when I'm writing, I have like a little poet poem
light that goes on.
So if I come across a subjector an idea or something that is,
that is something that I knowdefinitely will become a poem,
there is like a little lightthat goes on in my head and if
it's not, if the light's notthere, there's no point writing
the poem.
And so I was talking to one ofmy colleagues the other day who
was telling me about this, likeurban myth or a little bit of um
(12:41):
, you know, passed on peculiarwisdom, that wherever you are or
whoever you are, you see anelephant every day.
And uh, and honestly, thelights in my head it just was
like one of those christmashouses that is lit up you see an
elephant every day.
What on earth does that mean?
How can I write about that?
So it'll be that sort of animal, the elephant that you see
(13:04):
every day, and how that happensand what that means I love that
idea of that self-fulfillingprophecy.
Finbarre Snarey (13:09):
It's like, yeah , I don't know.
It's like when you say, forexample, if you're lucky enough
to buy a mini and you're drivingaround, you suddenly notice how
many other minis are on theroad, all the men.
Um, I'm going to be spottingall of the elephants now and you
will, you will.
Julia Bird (13:21):
It is now.
Finbarre Snarey (13:22):
You've been told it, it will come true my
goodness, I'll be haunted um,and I don't know if that's
linked to the phrase of theelephant in the room as well.
That's a good thing for thought.
Julia Bird (13:31):
I like that.
Maybe it is, maybe that'll comein.
Finbarre Snarey (13:34):
Keep looking alright, I've got the deck in my
hand.
Julia Bird (13:38):
I've always been talking, okay let's go a bit of
a longer shuffle this time, sokeep shuffling okay, here we go
oh, The Star this, that's quitea nice one it is one of my very
favorite cards, but what do yousay?
Do you know?
I'm just gonna, that's oh no,well, it was the moon.
(13:59):
I had on my phone, one today,so very celestial, um, the star.
So we have got, uh, one, two,three, four, five, six, seven
little stars in the sky and thenone giant big gold star and
then a very nice bucolic must benighttime scene, because the
(14:20):
stars are out of a nymph, anaked nymph, a naked blonde
nymph, next to a tiny littlepool and she's got two dugs of
water, one of which she appearsto be pouring into the pool and
one of which she appears to bepouring into the ground just to
the side of the pool.
(14:40):
So that speaks to me ofimmediately.
There's something about thewater cycle, the absolutely
irrepressible water cycle thatcannot be, uh, that cannot be
interfered with, that is alwaysgoing to just carry on doing its
evaporation, precipitationthing, whatever dams and
(15:00):
confoundments people try and putin its way.
I don't know, is this a go withthe flow?
This is go with the flow card,because this is a.
There are passions and energiesthat cannot be resisted by mere
human, human form.
Finbarre Snarey (15:15):
Yeah, that, maybe that's what I am getting
from looking at this lovelynymph and her pouring water we
have had the star previously andI wasn't aware that it's the
card immediately after the tower, so it's often right, okay
optimism after disaster.
and, as you say, yes, and, and,to go into something slightly
more woo, it's the card ofembracing your authentic self,
(15:37):
authentic self being a phrasethat sometimes makes me get, but
that's the star and it shinesso proudly.
So it's about sharing yourgifts with the world as well.
So the star, I would say, asit's an optimistic card, what
inspires hope and optimism inyour poetry?
What inspires that?
Julia Bird (15:57):
Hope and optimism in my poetry.
So somebody once told me thatmy poetry has the aesthetics of
the ant in the wine glass, uh.
Which I thought, yeah, I'mhappy with that, I will go with
that, and so I write.
My poems are funny and howevermuch I want to be an absolute
sort of gray-haired, bluestocking intellectual academic,
(16:19):
I am not that person.
I'm somebody whose primary wayof interacting with people in
person and on the page is to isto try and raise a laugh
sometimes.
That's not appropriate and Ijust have to put a lid on it,
but that's my default.
That is my authentic self.
So on the surface they are allsort of jolly and light and
funny and wry and amusing, butthere is an undercutting of
(16:45):
something darker and moreverminous.
Do I think that they arepositive and hopeful?
If they're about, if they'reabout anything, it's about
observation.
I don't.
That's not very profoundanalysis, but when I write from,
from myself, if I write with apersona, it is.
It's a.
It's about taking care of very,very tiny little things that I
(17:07):
have observed and want toprotect, mark out or just make
sure that everybody else knows,or the people who are reading
knows, of their importance, ifthat correlates to anything more
widely.
Perhaps it's to do withindividual action rather than
mass action, individual actionbeing one of the things that's
(17:30):
in our control in theseturbulent times.
So that might be as far as Iwould go in terms of hope.
Even if you're not explicitly apolitical writer, like I'm not,
the very act of spending yourtime and your attention making
something, contributingsomething, is a positive act.
I think I see it as acollective act.
Finbarre Snarey (17:52):
I have to say that I'm always glad to see the
star anyway, because I'll oftenwear it as a pendant around my
neck just to see if it enhancesmy day.
But the other reason why I'mglad to see that is I was
looking through some of theactivities that you've been
involved with online and therewas a mention of origami pigeons
carrying a message of hope.
Is that true?
Julia Bird (18:13):
I did a project at the guys hospital cancer center
a few years ago where the I'mnot sure if they still have it,
but they had an amazing sort ofart program that, uh, ran
throughout the workings of thecenter.
So, in terms of what was on thewalls and in terms of what
happened in the building andthey said, as a poet or a public
(18:35):
poet, what can you come in anddo?
And I wanted to find a way toget the tiniest little bit of
poetry into many, many, many,many interactions with people.
So poetry gives people the fear.
If you're coming at it thefirst time and you've had a bad
experience at school or whateverthe idea that you've gone to
(18:56):
get some horrific chemotherapytreatment and you're confronted
by a poet saying, come down andsit with me and let's talk about
poetry you'd run screaming forthe cafe, screaming for the for
the cafe.
So what I did was I would sitwith people and we would make an
origami pigeon, which is areally, really simple fold.
Um, that anybody can do and andI've done it with two-year-olds
(19:19):
and 90 year olds and people whodon't speak English and people,
you know, with limited mobilityor or physical ability
everybody can do it or getsomebody to help them do it, and
we would talk.
So just have you know who areyou, how's it going?
Let's write a little bit ofsomething lovely on the inside
of this pigeon, and it might besomething to do with their name.
(19:39):
We talk about their name, themeaning of their name, and if
there was any strength to befound in the definition of the
name and we would record a tinylittle thought in the inside of
this pigeon, then we'd fold itup and then we would pin it to a
ribbon and I think over theweek that I was there made 2 000
(20:00):
odd pigeons together, sothey're just like garlands all
around lovely huh.
Finbarre Snarey (20:02):
Yeah, I don't know quite what the um
collective noun of pigeons wouldbe.
I mean, it's probably flock,but it Like a fuffle.
Like a fuffle.
Yes, that's about right.
Yes, yeah, wow, that's anamazing story.
And you mentioned that thesepigeons are easy for me to make,
so if I was to sit down, grabmyself a piece of paper roughly,
how long does it take to makean origami pigeon?
Julia Bird (20:23):
About 45 seconds, I would say I think there's like
seven folds.
I will send you a link and youcan have a go Do it with the
kids.
Finbarre Snarey (20:31):
Thank you so much for that Right.
Julia Bird (20:34):
Third card Knight of Pentacles.
Did you say there was lots ofpentacles showing up?
Finbarre Snarey (20:43):
It seems to defy all probability.
It's as if two thirds of mydeck are composed of pentacles.
Do I ever see The World?
Never.
Do I ever see The Hierophant,never do I see pentacles all of
the time all the time right.
So could you describe in yourown words what you see here?
Julia Bird (21:00):
So what I'm seeing now.
So we're in a differentlandscape to the uh ones that we
have seen before.
So we've had sort of quitebucolic rolling hills.
This seems to be more into anunknown territory, so we've got
like a, an either a plowed fieldor something that's a bit more
desert-y mountains in thebackground, sort of flatter
foreground, and we're seeing aknight in absolute full armor.
(21:23):
He's got his visor up, but heis in full armor.
He is sitting on a verywell-dressed black horse with
all his reins and stirrups andsaddle and bits and pieces, all
in decorative red.
They are looking to the oh wait,a minute, I'm looking at a
reversed version of this card.
(21:44):
So I think they're looking tothe right rather than left.
So they're looking to the rightand if that's the direction
that we read, then that's adirection that looks to the
right rather than left.
So they're looking to the rightand if that's the direction
that we read, then that's adirection that looks to the
future rather than the past.
So that looks sort of quiteunmystical.
It looks quite tough.
It feels like it's quite atough card, but the weird thing
is that the sky is yellow.
(22:05):
The sky is completely yellowcompared to the lovely blue,
fluffly clouds of the first card, the riddick tat, and then the
night sky of the of the secondone that feels very unheimlich
the, the yellow sky likeapocalyptic or you know, the,
the portent of some dramaticstorm.
Yeah, I think it's sort of abold direction from a tough
(22:27):
situation or into a toughsituation is what I'm getting
from that absolutely.
Finbarre Snarey (22:31):
And you're right about the armor, about the
night moving slowly, neverrushing into things without
thinking them through.
It's, yeah, a, an appreciationof stability and reliability.
Um, it's.
This card is classicallyassociated with a commitment to
hard work, whether it's career,finance, personal growth.
And that caution, that dullness, it's a little bit like
personal growth.
And that caution, that dullness, it's a little bit like the
(22:52):
tortoise and the hare, ensuringlasting success.
Yeah, so it encourages you tostay focused, to put in the
effort.
So, knight of Pentacles, how doyou maintain perseverance and
dedication in your creative work?
Julia Bird (23:06):
For me it's I work in a project by project way now.
So the first couple of booksthat I published were
collections of unconnected poems, occasional poems, quite
personal.
But then when I finished thesecond book, I thought I've come
to the end of that way of wayof thinking now, and since then
(23:27):
I've used the establishment of astructure or a project
structure as a as a way togenerate new work.
So it's not like I have to have40 new ideas for 40 poems at a
time.
I just have to have oneoverarching idea for this
structure of the project andthen I I interrogate my
imagination in a different wayto find things to fill that
(23:49):
structure.
I don't, I think this isn't, Idon't think this is an analogy
that I've come up with, butsomebody else said it's like you
know, you mine, you, you minethe top layer first, and that's
your first couple of books, andthen you have to go deeper and
you might need a different tool.
It can't just be the thingsthat pop into your head.
There needs to be somethingthat is helping you excavate
(24:10):
more deeply held thoughts orideas perhaps, and so maybe
that's a bit like reading thetarot cards or ways into
alternative patterns of thoughtthat might not have come to you.
Naturally, I think the way thatI set up writing projects is a
way for me to uncover ideas andthoughts that might not have
occurred to me easily.
Finbarre Snarey (24:30):
A little bit like the elephant in the room.
Julia Bird (24:32):
Yes, my imaginary elephants.
Yeah, that's how I keep itgoing.
And also, it doesn't matter ifyou have five years off.
People aren't champing.
People are not like clappingdown the door.
You do what suits you wheneverit suits you.
I don't.
I've never wanted to besomebody that has.
And now, with her 47thcollection, people can have too
(24:54):
much of one voice, I think.
I think the six inches on theshelf is all I want to go for
that many books, and maybe I'mhalfway there, I don't know.
A little bit further.
I can fit a lot of slimpamphlets in the remaining two
or three inches.
Finbarre Snarey (25:11):
It's a lot of interests.
So, for example, if it's aSunday, like it is and I don't
know, you need to pop out to thegarden centre, or you're off to
a cafe, or however you spendyour Sunday afternoons.
And then you suddenly get,while you're in the middle of
just doing something mundanejust day to day, you're gripped
with an idea for a poem or astory or a fleeting something.
(25:31):
Yeah, how do you, how do youcapture that and then keep it
until you've actually got aplace to write it down?
Julia Bird (25:38):
I think you know like prosaically it would be
like a note on a piece of paperor a note in my phone or
something like that, and butwith the awareness that I don't,
I can't, I can't dropeverything in the garden center,
in the imaginary garden center,and then go off and write is I
don't have that sort of lifereally or that sort of
personality.
(25:58):
But if the notes there and it'sstill flashing its perim light,
um, when I have got some timeto write, when you know have got
a weekend or or a few days, ifit's still, if it's still vital
enough, something will come fromit.
It might not be the originalthought, but it, but but the
process of turning that thoughtaround and playing with that
thought might make somethingvital come from it yeah, I'm
(26:21):
curious about this.
Finbarre Snarey (26:22):
Uh, this poem like so how do you visualize it?
Is it like a lighthouse, is itlike a neon, neon light that you
get in a bar?
Julia Bird (26:30):
Uh, no, it's like it .
It's more like um, it's gotit's on a very quick switch, so
it'd be like an alarm light, Ithink all right, yeah,
somebody's pressed a big redbutton and then a light has gone
on, right well, um, that thatis.
Finbarre Snarey (26:45):
That is a lovely thought.
Do you know what I'm?
You've just caught me therethinking I've tried to write
sort of throughout my life.
Um, and I, perseverance ofwriting my own poetry isn't
something that I buy, buy at all.
I have so many backs of tickets, so many beer mats, so many dog
ends of, uh, notepad.
For some reason, opening anotebook is one of.
(27:07):
I can't write it.
I, I will try, I will getmyself the nicest morskin
notebook that I can afford andI'll write one page and that's
all that stays there.
Yeah, give me, just, just, giveme a massive paper.
Just give me stuff off thefloor, give me, you know, flyers
for a nightclub and I can writeall over that thing and I don't
know quite why that is I don'tknow it's.
Julia Bird (27:27):
I mean you have to.
There's a lot of tricking ofthe brain.
I think that's involved.
I can't write in public.
I can't go to a cafe or agarden.
You can't write in public?
No, no, because the public'stoo interesting.
There's always something goingon that I want to listen to or,
you know, get distracted by the,the buttons in the cafe or the
(27:49):
I don't know the bulbs in a in agarden center.
Um, I have to be undisturbed athome, with no claims on my time
.
I can do a notebook, that'sfine, yeah but no distractions.
Finbarre Snarey (28:02):
How does that controlled environment look?
It's like being in the garden.
Do you have a particular room?
Julia Bird (28:07):
I write in bed, just in bed, oh right, yeah, but I
used to do my homework in bedand I did my degree in bed, just
writing all my essays andeverything, partly because when
I was a student it was reallycold.
I quite like that.
I'm going to write something,then I'm going to have a snooze
(28:30):
and then, who knows what I willdream and then it might get in,
incorporated into what I into,what I write.
Can't write on a laptop becausethere's a little clock going.
Oh, it's been seven minutessince you wrote anything, you
know.
So, yeah, pen notebook bedexcellent, right?
Finbarre Snarey (28:41):
Oh, I need to take a leaf out of that book
then, because I've tried so manytimes.
I I even have a button on theside of my phone, so there's no
excuses.
If I think of something, Ipress that button and a notepad
app appears.
But straight away after thatthey are going to get a
notification from work or get anemail.
Something will interfere withthat thought process.
So I'm going to try, gettinginto bed tonight, get myself a
(29:04):
notebook out and just see whatappears on the page.
I like that idea.
Thank you so much.
Julia Bird (29:09):
My pleasure, my top tip.
Finbarre Snarey (29:11):
Right, Julia, thank you so much for being with
us today.
Julia Bird (29:14):
It's been an enjoyable conversation, thank
you.
Finbarre Snarey (29:17):
That brings us to the end of the conversation
with the brilliant Julia Bird.
From the lyrical landscapes ofHannah and the Monk to her
groundbreaking work in liveliterature, Julia continues to
shape the way we experiencepoetry.
Her insights into storytelling,memory and performance remind
us the enduring power of words.
If you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, leave
(29:38):
a review and share it withfellow poetry lovers.
Thanks for listening to TarotInterviews.
We'll be back soon with moreconversations on creativity and
storytelling.
Tarot Interviews.
Welcome to Tarot Interviews,where we explore the creative
mind shaping literature, filmand storytelling through the
power of the cards.
Today I'm honoured to welcomeJulia Bird, a writer whose work
(00:41):
brings together memory, placeand imagination in striking ways
.
Today we'll be exploring hercreative journey, the
inspirations behind her work andthe evolving landscape of
contemporary poetry.
Hello, julia, can you hear meokay?
Julia Bird (00:55):
I can yes, yeah, all good.
Finbarre Snarey (00:57):
Oh, I'm Fin Hi.
Julia Bird (00:59):
Nice to meet you.
Finbarre Snarey (01:00):
My wife said Julia Bird, as in Julia Bird the
poet, and I said yes, her workis way above my head.
I don't quite understand it,but I know she mentioned there
was a poem I think it's calledum 14, a text message poem from
2001 that you wrote.
Julia Bird (01:15):
Yes, that is from a very long time ago.
Finbarre Snarey (01:18):
Yes, yeah and it's part of her course material
.
She teaches it on a regularbasis please pass on my thanks
absolutely, absolutely.
But yes, she's currentlydownstairs with the kids.
Hopefully they won't be makingtoo much noise.
Um, it's a day of, um, I thinkit's Minecraft and painting.
Julia Bird (01:36):
That's what they're up to down there we should all
be doing some, some of that oh,yeah, yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (01:40):
How's your sunday?
Julia Bird (01:42):
it's peaceful so far .
I had, um, a busy day yesterday.
I'm working on a micropublishing project uh with a
friend, so we were doing lots ofwork towards that.
And then today so far I have uhlistened to the radcliffe and
mcconnie show and I've read athree week old issue of the tls,
so that's that feels quitestandard for sunday okay, yeah,
(02:04):
um, yeah, what did I do?
Finbarre Snarey (02:06):
It's just been housework for me, because it's
that thing of you get up on aSunday and it's right.
Right, I've got a podcast laterand then I've got another
interview in the evening, soeverything has to get sorted in
the morning, so it's justwashing, scrubbing, cleaning and
, yeah, yeah, my chance to relax.
Okay, so what we do is we pickthree cards.
What I I do is, depending onthe card that comes out, I'll
pose you a question Do you haveany cards yourself?
Julia Bird (02:28):
I do.
Yes, yeah, I've got a full setand then I've got a heart.
You know the set, that's justthe major cards.
That's designed by, I think,sophie Holloway I think I'll
have to check the name of thatperson and then I have an app on
my phone, so I have a dailycard on my phone.
Finbarre Snarey (02:45):
Wow, Okay.
Well, today we're just usingthe.
I say just, you know theclassic Rider Waite, and these
are the teeny, tiny little ones,the centenary deck, Because I
did have, I've had a deck mostof my life since I want to say
1995.
So that was what 10 years ago.
Julia Bird (03:05):
Yes, barely last week, that was.
Finbarre Snarey (03:07):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and the deck that I
have is huge, so while I'm onair, I guarantee I'll drop them,
whereas this teeny, tiny littledeck that I've got is just so.
I don't know if you're the kindof person who sort of sits
there and needs to fiddle withsomething, pick something up,
play with a pencil, whatever.
This deck is the perfect fiddletoy.
So the last couple of weeks,I've just been, you know, in
(03:30):
meetings, probably doingsomething far more important.
I've just been sat hereshuffling cards, so they have
been well shuffled.
For some reason, though, likefor the last four interviews
that I've done, uh, pentaclecards really want to show
themselves right major arcana,not so much.
So to see what you'll get today,okay, yeah, what were your
(03:52):
thoughts when you saw about thepodcast?
Julia Bird (03:53):
Anyway, well, I think I think it's because I'm
quite new to Bluesky and I'mjust trying to sort of rebuild
some sort of social mediacommunity after um backpedaling
from from twitter um, which Iloved, and in the early days I
found it a really sort of cheery, inspiring, slightly madcap
(04:15):
world that I made um sort oflots of inroads into finding
things out that I didn't knowbefore, or just, you know, just
being entertained and I reallymiss that I, I really miss that
sort of little, sort ofwhimsical sight of dopamine.
So, as I was trying to rebuildthis Blues ky community,
following all sorts of peopleand thoughts that sounded
(04:37):
interesting, I came across yourpost and it sort of coincided
post and it sort of coincided.
You know, I'm not I, I don'thave a in-depth tarot practice,
but I am interested in.
I am interested in it as a, asa way to surface opposing
thoughts to, to the way thatyour brain sort of uh wants to
follow its accustomed pathways.
(04:58):
I find it a good way to justlike kick myself out of those
ruts.
So I thought, oh, that's aninteresting combination of a
person.
I don't know practice I'minterested in.
Let's drop an email, see whathappens oh, thank you so much.
Finbarre Snarey (05:10):
Yeah, I must say that I think I joined
twitter twitter in 2007.
It was in the early days.
I know this is kind of like youknow way back when, you know
when, when fields were green andall the rest of it was all
fields yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I must say in the early daysit I made so many friends and
you know kind of weird littlethings came up, like a friend of
(05:30):
mine was doing a study into whotakes biscuits from a staff
room.
If you leave a plate down, whotakes the biscuits and which
biscuits are taken.
This was a scientific study.
That was done, yeah, and I gotpaid to do it.
I got paid to talk about myfavorite biscuits.
I got something like 200 quidfor a few minutes work and
things like that were popping upand it was just this wonderful
(05:51):
place of wonder.
And now it I mean I've said inprevious interviews it's like
looking under a paving slab,it's just, it's grim.
Julia Bird (05:58):
It pains me.
I've stopped posting.
I occasionally lurk and seewhat's happening and it's all
terrible.
My best experience was Iaccidentally founded a global
book club based on the Dark IsRising, the Susan Cooper book.
Robert McFarlane, the writerwith a far greater reach than I,
posted a picture of the coverof the 70s or 80s edition of
(06:22):
this children's novel, which iswhat I had when I was a kid and
was such a rush of uh, sort ofpleasurable familiarity.
I said, oh, we should.
We should form a book club, atwitter book club, around this
book.
And he said, yeah, all right,then how do we do that?
And it just took on a completelife of its own.
Um, it was before the pandemic,so, you know, maybe five years
ago, five, six years ago, andthe book takes place during the
(06:46):
period midwinter to twelfthnight, so it's a very sort of
discrete time that you can readthe book in real time.
And so that's what we did.
We sort of, you know, putprompts and thoughts and
analysis and had thousands andthousands of people all over the
world joining in, peoplejoining in with their kids,
people also making artwork andmusic in response to this novel,
and it was glorious, and thosedays I miss.
Finbarre Snarey (07:11):
You've just reminded me of.
I've not read the story, but Idid hear that I think Radio 4
did a dramatization.
It sounded so good, especiallyin stereo as well, and it did
give me flashbacks of um dayswhen childhood books were a
little more grotesque and alittle harder to read and a
little bit more grim, but somuch more fun.
(07:33):
Um, things like um, you knowthe box of delights which came
out in the 80s as well.
Yeah, it was such a nostalgictrip.
Julia Bird (07:40):
I did love that story yeah well, I recommend
reading uh, the dark is risingbecause it's really scary.
It's a kid's book, but it is.
Finbarre Snarey (07:47):
It's properly life or death scary I have your
cards in my hand, right?
I'm just shuffling away, sohopefully you can see that card
uh, it's reversed looks.
Julia Bird (08:01):
Five of swords, no page of swords page of swords.
Finbarre Snarey (08:05):
What are your impressions from looking at that
?
Julia Bird (08:09):
Isn't a page card, one that sort of tells you to
get ready for something?
What I'm looking at and it'sreversed, so that might have, uh
uh, an effect on myinterpretation.
So it's a figure in a sort ofmedieval outfit, very fetching
yellow tights and red boots.
Got a bit of Shakespeare in hewas a big lover of the yellow
(08:29):
stockings, wasn't he?
Standing with a single swordraised on a sort of a bit of
rolling countryside and when Isee rolling countryside it's
obviously Gloucestershire, whichis where I'm from.
There's a blue hill in thebackground, so that makes me
think of Dennis Potter.
There's a blue hill in thebackground, so that makes me
think of Dennis Potter and BlueRemembered Hills.
It's very literary what'scoming through, and then
standing in front of a big, blue, fluffy cloudscape blue and
(08:53):
white fluffy cloudscape of thesort that we haven't seen for a
good number of weeks and thefigure has got their sword
raised, as if they are about toeither chop somebody or they are
rallying somebody, rallying acrowd, an unseen crowd to follow
them.
That's what I'm thinking.
Yeah, quite like, let's go withthe rallying rather than
chopping well, what we'll do iswe'll use um.
Finbarre Snarey (09:16):
I don't know whereabouts in the world you are
in relation to me, so let's usethe um, the upright definition
for this card.
No, that tends to be morepositive as well.
We we need some of that in 2025, I think.
Julia Bird (09:26):
I'm in South London.
Finbarre Snarey (09:27):
Oh right, this card normally indicates a
message or important news comingyour way, often in the form of
ideas, conversations or writtencommunications.
So you need to stay alert andbe ready to adapt to changing
circumstances.
Oh, change in 2025.
Julia Bird (09:44):
Well, that's probably a standard bit of good
advice, that is, and be ready toadapt to changing circumstances
.
Oh, change in 2025.
Well, that's probably astandard bit of good advice.
Finbarre Snarey (09:50):
That is so.
The question I'll take fromthat is what new ideas or areas
of knowledge are you currentlyexploring?
Julia Bird (09:57):
I mean a relatively new job that is a specific area.
So I'm an arts administrator,that's how I learned my living
and I'm in a relatively new jobthat is exploring a specific
area.
So I'm an arts administrator,that's how I earn my living and
I'm in a relatively new job thatis exploring a specific aspect
of arts administration that Ihaven't really focused in depth
on before.
So there is a lot that you know.
It's been a year of learningthat that's definitely coming
through.
So I think it sort of itdescribes.
(10:20):
It feels like it links to thecurrent state of where I am at
the moment.
Whether it describes, it feelslike it links to the current
state of where I am at themoment, whether it's whether
it's speaking about what thefuture might be, I'm not quite
sure feels like an analysis ofwhere I am right now rather and
this is what you need to takewith you okay, so creatively.
Finbarre Snarey (10:36):
So I mean the card that is is looking at
messages or important newscoming your way, form of ideas,
conversations, rightcommunication telling you that
you need to stay alert, all ofthose things.
Have you been inspired byrecent events creatively and if
so, what's popped up?
Julia Bird (10:53):
What's popped up.
So I'm coming to the end of abig project that I've been
working on for about seven yearsreally, which is a poetry
collection, which is to do withresponding to a set of prompts
or set of questions.
I might talk about that more inmore detail maybe later.
I really feel that there's asort of winding up energy in
(11:16):
that now just telling me youknow, got to finish this, finish
this one, get it out into theworld.
There's the inklings ofsomething new that I mentioned
the publishing project that I'mworking on with a friend.
We're publishing 25 micro booksand I might have one of those
titles to fill and I'm thinkingabout what I might do with the
idea of the bestiary uh, abestiary.
Finbarre Snarey (11:38):
Did you say bestiary?
Julia Bird (11:39):
Yeah, all the animals I write about will be
barely there.
That, if that, if that makessense.
That's the idea.
That's sort of bubbling at themoment.
Just you know, I don't want togo and write a poem about a
hippopotamus or a or anporcupine.
They're going to be somethingthat's much more elusive and
barely perceptible.
(12:00):
Um, so that's that's the idea,that's the new idea that is just
beginning to sort of form outof the clouds, form out of the
clouds that I can see in thepage of swords there so I'm
fascinated by these, um by thehint of these shadow creatures.
Finbarre Snarey (12:13):
Are they real creatures from the physical
realm, or are they slightly morefantastical?
Julia Bird (12:18):
I, when I'm writing, I have like a little poet poem
light that goes on.
So if I come across a subjector an idea or something that is,
that is something that I knowdefinitely will become a poem,
there is like a little lightthat goes on in my head and if
it's not, if the light's notthere, there's no point writing
the poem.
And so I was talking to one ofmy colleagues the other day who
was telling me about this, likeurban myth or a little bit of um
(12:41):
, you know, passed on peculiarwisdom, that wherever you are or
whoever you are, you see anelephant every day.
And uh, and honestly, thelights in my head it just was
like one of those christmashouses that is lit up you see an
elephant every day.
What on earth does that mean?
How can I write about that?
So it'll be that sort of animal, the elephant that you see
(13:04):
every day, and how that happensand what that means I love that
idea of that self-fulfillingprophecy.
Finbarre Snarey (13:09):
It's like, yeah , I don't know.
It's like when you say, forexample, if you're lucky enough
to buy a mini and you're drivingaround, you suddenly notice how
many other minis are on theroad, all the men.
Um, I'm going to be spottingall of the elephants now and you
will, you will.
Julia Bird (13:21):
It is now.
Finbarre Snarey (13:22):
You've been told it, it will come true my
goodness, I'll be haunted um,and I don't know if that's
linked to the phrase of theelephant in the room as well.
That's a good thing for thought.
Julia Bird (13:31):
I like that.
Maybe it is, maybe that'll comein.
Finbarre Snarey (13:34):
Keep looking alright, I've got the deck in my
hand.
Julia Bird (13:38):
I've always been talking, okay let's go a bit of
a longer shuffle this time, sokeep shuffling okay, here we go
oh, The Star this, that's quitea nice one it is one of my very
favorite cards, but what do yousay?
Do you know?
I'm just gonna, that's oh no,well, it was the moon.
(13:59):
I had on my phone, one today,so very celestial, um, the star.
So we have got, uh, one, two,three, four, five, six, seven
little stars in the sky and thenone giant big gold star and
then a very nice bucolic must benighttime scene, because the
(14:20):
stars are out of a nymph, anaked nymph, a naked blonde
nymph, next to a tiny littlepool and she's got two dugs of
water, one of which she appearsto be pouring into the pool and
one of which she appears to bepouring into the ground just to
the side of the pool.
(14:40):
So that speaks to me ofimmediately.
There's something about thewater cycle, the absolutely
irrepressible water cycle thatcannot be, uh, that cannot be
interfered with, that is alwaysgoing to just carry on doing its
evaporation, precipitationthing, whatever dams and
(15:00):
confoundments people try and putin its way.
I don't know, is this a go withthe flow?
This is go with the flow card,because this is a.
There are passions and energiesthat cannot be resisted by mere
human, human form.
Finbarre Snarey (15:15):
Yeah, that, maybe that's what I am getting
from looking at this lovelynymph and her pouring water we
have had the star previously andI wasn't aware that it's the
card immediately after the tower, so it's often right, okay
optimism after disaster.
and, as you say, yes, and, and,to go into something slightly
more woo, it's the card ofembracing your authentic self,
(15:37):
authentic self being a phrasethat sometimes makes me get, but
that's the star and it shinesso proudly.
So it's about sharing yourgifts with the world as well.
So the star, I would say, asit's an optimistic card, what
inspires hope and optimism inyour poetry?
What inspires that?
Julia Bird (15:57):
Hope and optimism in my poetry.
So somebody once told me thatmy poetry has the aesthetics of
the ant in the wine glass, uh.
Which I thought, yeah, I'mhappy with that, I will go with
that, and so I write.
My poems are funny and howevermuch I want to be an absolute
sort of gray-haired, bluestocking intellectual academic,
(16:19):
I am not that person.
I'm somebody whose primary wayof interacting with people in
person and on the page is to isto try and raise a laugh
sometimes.
That's not appropriate and Ijust have to put a lid on it,
but that's my default.
That is my authentic self.
So on the surface they are allsort of jolly and light and
funny and wry and amusing, butthere is an undercutting of
(16:45):
something darker and moreverminous.
Do I think that they arepositive and hopeful?
If they're about, if they'reabout anything, it's about
observation.
I don't.
That's not very profoundanalysis, but when I write from,
from myself, if I write with apersona, it is.
It's a.
It's about taking care of very,very tiny little things that I
(17:07):
have observed and want toprotect, mark out or just make
sure that everybody else knows,or the people who are reading
knows, of their importance, ifthat correlates to anything more
widely.
Perhaps it's to do withindividual action rather than
mass action, individual actionbeing one of the things that's
(17:30):
in our control in theseturbulent times.
So that might be as far as Iwould go in terms of hope.
Even if you're not explicitly apolitical writer, like I'm not,
the very act of spending yourtime and your attention making
something, contributingsomething, is a positive act.
I think I see it as acollective act.
Finbarre Snarey (17:52):
I have to say that I'm always glad to see the
star anyway, because I'll oftenwear it as a pendant around my
neck just to see if it enhancesmy day.
But the other reason why I'mglad to see that is I was
looking through some of theactivities that you've been
involved with online and therewas a mention of origami pigeons
carrying a message of hope.
Is that true?
Julia Bird (18:13):
I did a project at the guys hospital cancer center
a few years ago where the I'mnot sure if they still have it,
but they had an amazing sort ofart program that, uh, ran
throughout the workings of thecenter.
So, in terms of what was on thewalls and in terms of what
happened in the building andthey said, as a poet or a public
(18:35):
poet, what can you come in anddo?
And I wanted to find a way toget the tiniest little bit of
poetry into many, many, many,many interactions with people.
So poetry gives people the fear.
If you're coming at it thefirst time and you've had a bad
experience at school or whateverthe idea that you've gone to
(18:56):
get some horrific chemotherapytreatment and you're confronted
by a poet saying, come down andsit with me and let's talk about
poetry you'd run screaming forthe cafe, screaming for the for
the cafe.
So what I did was I would sitwith people and we would make an
origami pigeon, which is areally, really simple fold.
Um, that anybody can do and andI've done it with two-year-olds
(19:19):
and 90 year olds and people whodon't speak English and people,
you know, with limited mobilityor or physical ability
everybody can do it or getsomebody to help them do it, and
we would talk.
So just have you know who areyou, how's it going?
Let's write a little bit ofsomething lovely on the inside
of this pigeon, and it might besomething to do with their name.
(19:39):
We talk about their name, themeaning of their name, and if
there was any strength to befound in the definition of the
name and we would record a tinylittle thought in the inside of
this pigeon, then we'd fold itup and then we would pin it to a
ribbon and I think over theweek that I was there made 2 000
(20:00):
odd pigeons together, sothey're just like garlands all
around lovely huh.
Finbarre Snarey (20:02):
Yeah, I don't know quite what the um
collective noun of pigeons wouldbe.
I mean, it's probably flock,but it Like a fuffle.
Like a fuffle.
Yes, that's about right.
Yes, yeah, wow, that's anamazing story.
And you mentioned that thesepigeons are easy for me to make,
so if I was to sit down, grabmyself a piece of paper roughly,
how long does it take to makean origami pigeon?
Julia Bird (20:23):
About 45 seconds, I would say I think there's like
seven folds.
I will send you a link and youcan have a go Do it with the
kids.
Finbarre Snarey (20:31):
Thank you so much for that Right.
Julia Bird (20:34):
Third card Knight of Pentacles.
Did you say there was lots ofpentacles showing up?
Finbarre Snarey (20:43):
It seems to defy all probability.
It's as if two thirds of mydeck are composed of pentacles.
Do I ever see The World?
Never.
Do I ever see The Hierophant,never do I see pentacles all of
the time all the time right.
So could you describe in yourown words what you see here?
Julia Bird (21:00):
So what I'm seeing now.
So we're in a differentlandscape to the uh ones that we
have seen before.
So we've had sort of quitebucolic rolling hills.
This seems to be more into anunknown territory, so we've got
like a, an either a plowed fieldor something that's a bit more
desert-y mountains in thebackground, sort of flatter
foreground, and we're seeing aknight in absolute full armor.
(21:23):
He's got his visor up, but heis in full armor.
He is sitting on a verywell-dressed black horse with
all his reins and stirrups andsaddle and bits and pieces, all
in decorative red.
They are looking to the oh wait,a minute, I'm looking at a
reversed version of this card.
(21:44):
So I think they're looking tothe right rather than left.
So they're looking to the rightand if that's the direction
that we read, then that's adirection that looks to the
right rather than left.
So they're looking to the rightand if that's the direction
that we read, then that's adirection that looks to the
future rather than the past.
So that looks sort of quiteunmystical.
It looks quite tough.
It feels like it's quite atough card, but the weird thing
is that the sky is yellow.
(22:05):
The sky is completely yellowcompared to the lovely blue,
fluffly clouds of the first card, the riddick tat, and then the
night sky of the of the secondone that feels very unheimlich
the, the yellow sky likeapocalyptic or you know, the,
the portent of some dramaticstorm.
Yeah, I think it's sort of abold direction from a tough
(22:27):
situation or into a toughsituation is what I'm getting
from that absolutely.
Finbarre Snarey (22:31):
And you're right about the armor, about the
night moving slowly, neverrushing into things without
thinking them through.
It's, yeah, a, an appreciationof stability and reliability.
Um, it's.
This card is classicallyassociated with a commitment to
hard work, whether it's career,finance, personal growth.
And that caution, that dullness, it's a little bit like
personal growth.
And that caution, that dullness, it's a little bit like the
(22:52):
tortoise and the hare, ensuringlasting success.
Yeah, so it encourages you tostay focused, to put in the
effort.
So, knight of Pentacles, how doyou maintain perseverance and
dedication in your creative work?
Julia Bird (23:06):
For me it's I work in a project by project way now.
So the first couple of booksthat I published were
collections of unconnected poems, occasional poems, quite
personal.
But then when I finished thesecond book, I thought I've come
to the end of that way of wayof thinking now, and since then
(23:27):
I've used the establishment of astructure or a project
structure as a as a way togenerate new work.
So it's not like I have to have40 new ideas for 40 poems at a
time.
I just have to have oneoverarching idea for this
structure of the project andthen I I interrogate my
imagination in a different wayto find things to fill that
(23:49):
structure.
I don't, I think this isn't, Idon't think this is an analogy
that I've come up with, butsomebody else said it's like you
know, you mine, you, you minethe top layer first, and that's
your first couple of books, andthen you have to go deeper and
you might need a different tool.
It can't just be the thingsthat pop into your head.
There needs to be somethingthat is helping you excavate
(24:10):
more deeply held thoughts orideas perhaps, and so maybe
that's a bit like reading thetarot cards or ways into
alternative patterns of thoughtthat might not have come to you.
Naturally, I think the way thatI set up writing projects is a
way for me to uncover ideas andthoughts that might not have
occurred to me easily.
Finbarre Snarey (24:30):
A little bit like the elephant in the room.
Julia Bird (24:32):
Yes, my imaginary elephants.
Yeah, that's how I keep itgoing.
And also, it doesn't matter ifyou have five years off.
People aren't champing.
People are not like clappingdown the door.
You do what suits you wheneverit suits you.
I don't.
I've never wanted to besomebody that has.
And now, with her 47thcollection, people can have too
(24:54):
much of one voice, I think.
I think the six inches on theshelf is all I want to go for
that many books, and maybe I'mhalfway there, I don't know.
A little bit further.
I can fit a lot of slimpamphlets in the remaining two
or three inches.
Finbarre Snarey (25:11):
It's a lot of interests.
So, for example, if it's aSunday, like it is and I don't
know, you need to pop out to thegarden centre, or you're off to
a cafe, or however you spendyour Sunday afternoons.
And then you suddenly get,while you're in the middle of
just doing something mundanejust day to day, you're gripped
with an idea for a poem or astory or a fleeting something.
(25:31):
Yeah, how do you, how do youcapture that and then keep it
until you've actually got aplace to write it down?
Julia Bird (25:38):
I think you know like prosaically it would be
like a note on a piece of paperor a note in my phone or
something like that, and butwith the awareness that I don't,
I can't, I can't dropeverything in the garden center,
in the imaginary garden center,and then go off and write is I
don't have that sort of lifereally or that sort of
personality.
(25:58):
But if the notes there and it'sstill flashing its perim light,
um, when I have got some timeto write, when you know have got
a weekend or or a few days, ifit's still, if it's still vital
enough, something will come fromit.
It might not be the originalthought, but it, but but the
process of turning that thoughtaround and playing with that
thought might make somethingvital come from it yeah, I'm
(26:21):
curious about this.
Finbarre Snarey (26:22):
Uh, this poem like so how do you visualize it?
Is it like a lighthouse, is itlike a neon, neon light that you
get in a bar?
Julia Bird (26:30):
Uh, no, it's like it .
It's more like um, it's gotit's on a very quick switch, so
it'd be like an alarm light, Ithink all right, yeah,
somebody's pressed a big redbutton and then a light has gone
on, right well, um, that thatis.
Finbarre Snarey (26:45):
That is a lovely thought.
Do you know what I'm?
You've just caught me therethinking I've tried to write
sort of throughout my life.
Um, and I, perseverance ofwriting my own poetry isn't
something that I buy, buy at all.
I have so many backs of tickets, so many beer mats, so many dog
ends of, uh, notepad.
For some reason, opening anotebook is one of.
(27:07):
I can't write it.
I, I will try, I will getmyself the nicest morskin
notebook that I can afford andI'll write one page and that's
all that stays there.
Yeah, give me, just, just, giveme a massive paper.
Just give me stuff off thefloor, give me, you know, flyers
for a nightclub and I can writeall over that thing and I don't
know quite why that is I don'tknow it's.
Julia Bird (27:27):
I mean you have to.
There's a lot of tricking ofthe brain.
I think that's involved.
I can't write in public.
I can't go to a cafe or agarden.
You can't write in public?
No, no, because the public'stoo interesting.
There's always something goingon that I want to listen to or,
you know, get distracted by the,the buttons in the cafe or the
(27:49):
I don't know the bulbs in a in agarden center.
Um, I have to be undisturbed athome, with no claims on my time
.
I can do a notebook, that'sfine, yeah but no distractions.
Finbarre Snarey (28:02):
How does that controlled environment look?
It's like being in the garden.
Do you have a particular room?
Julia Bird (28:07):
I write in bed, just in bed, oh right, yeah, but I
used to do my homework in bedand I did my degree in bed, just
writing all my essays andeverything, partly because when
I was a student it was reallycold.
I quite like that.
I'm going to write something,then I'm going to have a snooze
(28:30):
and then, who knows what I willdream and then it might get in,
incorporated into what I into,what I write.
Can't write on a laptop becausethere's a little clock going.
Oh, it's been seven minutessince you wrote anything, you
know.
So, yeah, pen notebook bedexcellent, right?
Finbarre Snarey (28:41):
Oh, I need to take a leaf out of that book
then, because I've tried so manytimes.
I I even have a button on theside of my phone, so there's no
excuses.
If I think of something, Ipress that button and a notepad
app appears.
But straight away after thatthey are going to get a
notification from work or get anemail.
Something will interfere withthat thought process.
So I'm going to try, gettinginto bed tonight, get myself a
(29:04):
notebook out and just see whatappears on the page.
I like that idea.
Thank you so much.
Julia Bird (29:09):
My pleasure, my top tip.
Finbarre Snarey (29:11):
Right, Julia, thank you so much for being with
us today.
Julia Bird (29:14):
It's been an enjoyable conversation, thank
you.
Finbarre Snarey (29:17):
That brings us to the end of the conversation
with the brilliant Julia Bird.
From the lyrical landscapes ofHannah and the Monk to her
groundbreaking work in liveliterature, Julia continues to
shape the way we experiencepoetry.
Her insights into storytelling,memory and performance remind
us the enduring power of words.
If you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, leave
(29:38):
a review and share it withfellow poetry lovers.
Thanks for listening to TarotInterviews.
We'll be back soon with moreconversations on creativity and
storytelling.
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