May 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Clelia McElroy is a film researcher and the founder/director of Monstrous Flesh, a project dedicated to exploring the representation of women and non-binary people in the horror genre. Since its inception in 2021, Monstrous Flesh has been hosting film courses, events, panel talks, lectures and film seasons in collaboration with community groups and art institutions in the Midlands and the North of England.
Since 2023, Clelia has been collaborating with Dr Megan Kenny on the Monstrous Flesh podcast, and together they have created the Monstrous Flesh Collective to promote their podcast activities, as well as the publication of the Monstrous Flesh Journal.
Find out more www.monstrousflesh.co.uk
NEXT EPISODE: We’re joined by poet Julia Bird, a lover of cahoots and escapades, known for her vivid, witty, and observant poetry that blends everyday life with imaginative twists.
Tarot Interviews credits
- Host and producer: Finbarre Snarey
- Theme music composer: Amelia Lawn
- Additional music: Nicola Snarey
- Cover art: Rein G
If you're curious about the cards we use and want to find out more, visit our Tarot Interviews podcast page.
Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Finbarre Snarey (00:39):
Tarot Interviews plenary community
venture that explores therepresentation of women and
non-binary individuals in horrorthrough curated film courses,
events and thought-provokingpodcasts.
Clearly, alongside co-host drmegan kenny, fearlessly pull
back the shower curtain on theorigins of horror tropes,
offering a fresh and inclusiveperspective on the genre.
Clelia McElroy (00:58):
Let's shuffle the deck and uncover the stories
of, shaped clearly as journeywhen I got message, it was just
so such an amazing, you know,such an amazing thing to receive
, because I've only recently gotinto reading tarot myself,
after years of being completelycynical about it, because my mom
is really into all this and tothe point where I mean, yeah,
(01:20):
she's a very intuitive person,which I love and I've really
learned to love.
But I think, growing up in areally small community, I think
people were very judgmental ofit and it's something that I
really actively rejected for areally long time.
But actually, you know, growingolder and actually that's
something that we bond over alot.
So in the last few months, Igot myself a deck as well and
(01:43):
started doing little readings.
I'm like really absolutelyloving it.
So when I got your message, Igot myself a deck as well and
started doing little readings.
I'm like really absolutelyloving it.
So when I got your message, Iwas just like this is amazing.
It's like a message from theuniverse.
Finbarre Snarey (01:52):
Thank, you so much and thank you for joining
me on the show as well.
Clelia McElroy (01:56):
Delighted to be here.
Finbarre Snarey (01:58):
Excellent.
Now I'm detecting a very slighttrace of an accent that doesn't
sound like it's from Beeston.
Clelia McElroy (02:04):
How rude.
Finbarre Snarey (02:07):
Where else have you lived, apart from Nazim?
Clelia McElroy (02:08):
So I'm originally from France, from a
little place called Carcassonne.
Finbarre Snarey (02:14):
Carcassonne.
I've only been there twice andje parle français un petit peu,
but that's as far as I go, butCarc's beautiful.
Clelia McElroy (02:24):
It is a beautiful place.
So I've been in the UK forabout 20 years now, so you know
I always get really nervous,especially when I tell people
that I'm French and people starttalking back at me in French
because my French is abysmal.
Now, as a result, I know it'slike it's hard to believe.
Obviously, yes, I'm fluent inFrench, but wasn't.
(02:52):
I knew it's like it's hard tobelieve.
Obviously, yes, I'm fluent infrench, but I.
But, yes, it doesn't come asnaturally to me as it used to.
So so, yeah, I left when I was18 and I've always been in the
uk since.
So but yes, it is, it is abeautiful place.
I have conflicted emotionslinked to it because I just
can't.
It kind of never felt like ahome to me, whereas when I
arrived in the uk immediately Iwas like this is my culture,
which, which I know is a weirdthing to say.
Finbarre Snarey (03:10):
One of my great regrets is choosing French for
my GCSEs.
Now, the reason why I pickedFrench was at the time I was in
love with a lady called HeatherBrown and I wanted to impress
her with Baudelaire's poetry andI wanted to be able to recite
it in the original French.
And I mean, I love Baudelaire'spoetry and I'm very glad that I
(03:31):
did that.
But when I went to France I wasthinking this this doesn't feel
right.
I was in Paris and you know,with the graffiti and the smell
and the places that I went to,the only place that I really
liked was Notre Dame.
I visited Sacré-Cœur and itgave me really weird vibes Went
all around Pigalle because ofcourse I'm a tourist and of
(03:51):
course you do.
I must say that Notre Dame,that was the crown jewel.
Hopefully they've rebuilt it ina way that's fitting for the
building.
It was a gorgeous place,especially the gargoyles on the
top and the view over the prisonrooftops.
Clelia McElroy (04:03):
Yes, it's really .
Yeah, it's something that'sreally special, but I can see
you know the disconnect thatyou're talking about.
I mean, I assume that this iswhat you mean.
It's.
Finbarre Snarey (04:11):
Paris syndrome that I'm suffering from?
Clelia McElroy (04:13):
Yes, no, from the poetry of Baudelaire to you
know, to actually visiting Parisis quite a big step, isn't?
Finbarre Snarey (04:22):
Yes, it was a bit of a culture shock.
Clelia McElroy (04:23):
Yes, yes, and may I say, by the way, although,
as I said, I have conflictingemotions about you know my
culture and being French, but sobeing Parisian and being French
, it's two different things.
Finbarre Snarey (04:34):
Oh really yeah right, well, I do believe it's
time for the cards.
So what I'm going to do keepshuffling until you say stop,
okay, and then I'll split thedeck and then I'll shuffle again
, and then you pick either thetop or the bottom card, right,
okay?
Yeah, so you know there's nochicanery, okay, so we're
starting with the seven ofswords.
(04:56):
What vibes do you get from mycard?
Clelia McElroy (04:59):
It looks heavy, looks like a heavy burden.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
I don't really know much aboutthe significance of this card.
I don't know anything about thesignificance card, sorry.
Finbarre Snarey (05:11):
Rather I should be honest about that, okay um
the seven of swords can oftenrepresent um duplicity, it can
represent betrayal, it canrepresent, I think, um etu brute
, know, the whole kind of knivesin the back, inspiring.
Okay, that's the kind of thingthat we're looking at.
So, as you're a lovely personand you would never do such a
(05:33):
thing, maybe it's all coming outnow.
When it comes to your talks,when it comes to the work that
guides you, how do you handlesensitive topics without
compromising your authenticityor integrity?
Clelia McElroy (05:46):
I mean I think then, the reason why I do this,
the reason why I started doingthese talks and these courses
and the reason why I still do it, is because I do love
facilitating conversations, evenif they're difficult
conversations.
So we were talking before and Iwas saying that in every talk,
in every course that I do, therewill be those difficult
(06:06):
questions arising and I mean Idon't see my role as just I'm
not there to justify oneviewpoint or another.
I know what I believe and Ithink it's very clear in the
ideas that I discuss in thosecourses, but by any means I'm
not there to impose my viewpointon people.
(06:28):
I think you know from thosedifficult questions there are so
many interesting conversationsthat arises Sometimes you can
put a, you know you can putpeople's back up, but my role as
a facilitator is just to makepeople comfortable to ask those
questions and therefore peopleto have discussions.
And if it gets a bit heated thenyou know all the better for it.
(06:48):
It's like we're there to shareand you know it's really
difficult to change people'sminds right at the end of the
day.
But I think if people are opento have these conversations then
you know it's a beautiful thing.
Finbarre Snarey (06:58):
Yes, I mean having witnessed one of your
fabulous talks myself.
I did come home and talkedabout what I'd heard, and one of
the first things that I wasasked was well, do they do one
about men?
Are you often faced with that?
But what about men?
Clelia McElroy (07:12):
All the time, all the time, and I guess my you
know.
My answer to this is I can onlytalk about the things that I
know.
Um, so I you know the same waythat you know I touch about a.
You know the same way that youknow I touch about.
You know a lot of topics in thecourse and actually I do talk
about.
You know the role of men inhorror and you know we have
these discussions around this,but you know equally talk about
(07:33):
the role of non-binary people inhorror and you know people of
color in horror and everything.
And you know I can offer theinformation that I have on this
topic.
I can offer the informationthat I have on this topic, but
the idea is really to open it upto people whose experience
relate to those things, and thatis the point of it.
I'm not there to be anauthority on anything.
(07:54):
I'm just there to encouragepeople to look at those films
and look at those texts in a waythat relates to their own
experiences and to hopefullymake you know, make them look at
it, yeah, in an interesting way, and to reflect on how, you
know, that shapes ourexperiences in society and how
we can, you know.
Yeah, learn something and bebetter humans, I guess.
Finbarre Snarey (08:18):
As part of the Seven of Swords, about
countering a pakeness withtransparency.
When you arrive in a venue andyou're talking about monstrous
things, you're talking abouthorror, you're talking about
evil things, obviously throughthe lens of feminism.
Have you had any problems withvenues raising an eyebrow about
(08:38):
your subject matter, asking youare you going to be talking
about blood?
Have you had any challenges inbooking venues?
I?
Have you had any challenges inbooking venues?
Clelia McElroy (08:46):
I haven't had any challenges so much in
booking venues.
I've definitely had thosequestions about you know who is
it suitable for?
You know what are you themesthat I'm covering?
If you know there's an agelimit, and you know my response
is always that I try I make itas inclusive as possible.
You know I put it out therebasically for people to decide.
It's like yes, you know, thoseare the things that we're
(09:07):
covering in the courses that Ido.
I don't show um explicit clipsfrom films, for example, even if
we're talking about veryexplicit themes.
I'm like you know this is outthere for you to to look at if
you, if you're interested inthis.
But equally, my, my aim withyou when I talk about those
things is not to put people off.
It's on the contrary, what Ilove about doing talks and
(09:31):
courses like this is to havepeople who come from a place of.
I hate horror.
I don't understand what horrorhas to do with feminism.
In fact, you know those twothings are completely opposite.
So you know how can you bringthose two things together?
And I always say you know, comealong, let me change your mind
and I do it in a reallyrespectful way.
That you know that means thatpeople all of a sudden engage
(09:52):
with a genre that is, you know,historically, you know has a
very misogynistic label attachedto it, in a way that makes
people think maybe maybe it'sconvenient for some people that
you know that that horror, youknow, appears that way to
mainstream audiences.
You know who does it serve bydoing this?
And actually, when we deep diveinto it, all those themes
(10:13):
they've serving, you know theyshould serve us, as you know, as
, as women, as non-binary people, you know to, um, you know to,
to, yeah, to connect in adifferent you know on a
different level.
Finbarre Snarey (10:23):
Absolutely and I can see because your eyes
blazing as you're telling methis you must be so good at
these talks and events that youhold to be able to connect with
people of a like mind,especially with you.
Know the prevailing culturesthat are increasingly attacking
you.
Know the rights of people whoare non-binary, the people who
(10:47):
are different to the norm.
I was happily watching yourtalk with the collection of
weirdos around me myself, as aself-confessed weirdo.
Right second card hello.
(11:11):
Oh, you've probably got a lotto say about this one.
Clelia McElroy (11:14):
What do we see here?
I don't know.
It's encouraging.
I'm really glad to see thisafter the swords um, I don't
know.
Hopefully, speaking to mypassion for the subject and
being able to communicate thiseffectively into other people,
I'm hoping, or my desire, to beloved by the community.
Finbarre Snarey (11:35):
Maybe it's funny that this card should come
up, because I was discussingjust the other day with a friend
of mine the similaritiesbetween this and the devil card,
which I imagine is somethingthat's probably popped up.
You know the films and themedia that you would normally
look at and how the devil cardcorrupts the image of the lovers
and plants chains around theirnecks and they're kind of, you
(11:57):
know, being yoked by the um.
You know the infernal almightyabove them instead of the
celestial almighty here.
Okay, the lovers is that kindof connection of of true union.
Could you share how yourcollaboration with your co-host,
dr megan kenny, has influencedthe direction and content of
your podcast?
Clelia McElroy (12:17):
yes, uh, so meg and I met because she issued, I
did one of the courses.
I offered it online and shejoined the course and we
immediately there was like sucha strong connection there.
She was so interested, sopassionate about what I was
talking about and immediatelyafter the course ended, she was
(12:38):
very keen for us to be in touchand to work together, to work on
something together, and thepodcast actually was the
Monsters Fresh podcast was heridea, which I was like, yeah,
why not?
You know, that sounds great.
I'm always up for you know,talking about you know, talking
about those themes and women inhorror with other women.
It's like how incredible.
(13:03):
This is the reason why I startedthis.
The community course in thefirst place was to meet people,
like-minded people, and Meg is afolklorist, so she's coming at
it from a really interestingangle because she's very
interested.
She loves horror, she waswriting about horror, she's a
very proficient writer, butshe's also very interested about
the connection between horrorstories and folklore and
mythology, so bringing thosethings together and this is a
(13:24):
thing that I'm interested in aswell, but she's done extensive
research into it.
Finbarre Snarey (13:28):
You mentioned previously that she's a
folklorist.
What is that?
Clelia McElroy (13:33):
Well, it's a drastic.
We have this discussion all thetime.
I think it's kind of it's aterm that Meg has appropriated
basically saying who's going totell me I'm not a folklorist?
I am passionate aboutfolklorists.
I write about folkloricmythology.
I am a specialist in thesubject.
Therefore I am a folklorist.
Finbarre Snarey (13:52):
She's the original.
She's like folklorist zero.
Clelia McElroy (13:54):
She is exactly.
Yeah, she really is, and I dolove this.
I mean, I think Meg gives me somuch confidence into what we're
doing and what we're talkingabout.
And I'm a very anxious personand I very often feel like am I
doing the right thing?
Am I the right person to talkabout those things and bring
people together?
(14:14):
But Meg is very much, like youknow, pushed all those things
aside and you know, if you havesomething that you want to say,
you have to say it and you'llfind the right people.
So I think Meg really bringsthat dimension of this is
important and what we talk aboutis important, and there are
people out there who want totalk about those things and we
(14:34):
want to bring them together andthat's the joy of it.
So, yeah, I just absolutelylove working with and working
together.
Finbarre Snarey (14:43):
And you mentioned, meg is living in
far-flung Manchester.
How often do you get to meet?
Clelia McElroy (14:47):
We don't get to meet very often, to be honest.
I think we've been workingtogether for a couple of years
now and we've met only a coupleof times in person.
You know, that's the beauty ofthe digital age, right in some
respect?
I mean, we're on Zoom, you know, every week, and we respect I
mean, we're on uh zoom, you knowevery week, and we, you know,
we're on whatsapp every day, youknow even voice messages.
(15:08):
So I thought we feel veryconnected, even though we know
we'd love to be able to, to gettogether more often, but yes,
this is the first in-personinterview for tarot interviews.
Finbarre Snarey (15:18):
I have to say thank you so much for coming
here, because we tend to we usea Riverside to talk to people,
mainly sometimes on Zoom as well.
It's quite refreshing toactually have you here in person
, right?
Okay, so your third card.
That was a good one to get.
Now, what I'm doing is I'mkeeping these down here so they
don't go back into the deck, soyou don't get the same ones
(15:39):
twice.
Shame.
Clelia McElroy (15:40):
More love out of that.
Finbarre Snarey (15:45):
I think it's just so people don't get death,
death and death, of course.
Well, let me give these alittle shuffle, and it's funny
how some cards just don't comeup as well like um, yeah, I'm
gonna tempt fate here.
I never get temperance.
Okay, I never get the world twocards that just don't feature
the lovers.
I see a lot, the hanged man alot.
It's one of my favorite cards.
Clelia McElroy (16:01):
That's really interesting, I mean, and we
talked about a little bit beforeand I was saying that I
recently got into tarot anddoing, you know, little readings
, uh, but he had that cardhangman never.
Never comes out for me andthink temperance, maybe once for
for someone else.
But you know, you're right inthere.
Finbarre Snarey (16:20):
Rare cards to uh, they're elusive, it's almost
like they're.
You know, if there were pokemonthey'd be the shinies, you know
.
Do you know what I'm reallytempted one day just to get a
stack of, if they don't cost asmall fortune?
Now?
Uh, sort of gen one pokemoncards and just do a reading.
With that right, you've got.
You've got squirtle.
Talk to me about this now,that's true talent.
Clelia McElroy (16:37):
You're reading around this let's right
Shuffling away.
Finbarre Snarey (16:43):
Stop, Okay, the three of cups.
How's that looking?
Clelia McElroy (16:51):
I mean always when I See cups, I always think,
oh, is it about, you know,filling your cup with hope?
So yeah, and you know, b3 is avery important number in
numerology and in terms of Covenas well.
I mean, I'm getting hints ofwitches in Coven.
(17:11):
Coven's a good word.
Finbarre Snarey (17:13):
I imagine that's something that comes up
in your talks a lot, very muchso.
Clelia McElroy (17:17):
I'm always transposing horror themes on
whatever I'm doing.
Finbarre Snarey (17:21):
I have to ask is Coven specific to groups of
non-binary and female-presentingpeople?
Can men join Covens?
Clelia McElroy (17:31):
I think so, absolutely.
I mean, don't get me wrongagain, I have no authority on
this, but in my view, Coven isanother word for community, in
my opinion, so it should beinclusive and accepting.
Finbarre Snarey (17:49):
Right Three of Cups.
My question for you is how doyou foster that sense of
community and collaboration withyour audience and peers?
Clelia McElroy (17:59):
It's something that I've been thinking about a
lot recently.
I actually attended a paneldiscussion on community building
at the beginning of Februaryand it was so eye-opening and it
was so enlightening in thesense that I think that when I
started Monstrous Flesh I'd justmoved to Nottingham and it was
very much a case of, ok, I wantto meet people who are
(18:19):
interested in the same thingthat I am, want to talk about
the same issues that I'minterested in.
And it was very much.
It was very grassroots and youknow it started with a group of
10 people meeting at a communitycentre and then kind of grew
from there.
And you know, obviously ithasn't.
You know it's not that he'sgrown into something, you know,
enormous or something, but Ikind of feel like along the way
maybe I have lost this a littlebit, and so it was really nice
(18:42):
to, at the start of this year,to put it back to what I wanted
to do when I started MonsterSpecial, which was to grow a
community as much as possible.
But the way that I like tothink that I do this is by
working with other groups from.
You know, in the film scene inNottingham, somebody who I
absolutely love working with isEmma Duncan from Fortune and
(19:04):
Glory Film Club, who's ainclusive queer film club in
Nottingham, and Emma is veryinterested in horror as well.
We met through the course again.
We met through the course againand what we started doing is,
each year, on InternationalWomen's Day, we started running
an event about women in horror,showing short films or feature
films, inviting artists andcreators local artists and
(19:27):
creators to come and talk andsell their wares and, you know,
having this big party basicallycelebrating women and women in
horror.
And we're doing it'll be thefourth iteration this year doing
it so excited, and these arethe things that remind me why I
started, most especially why Iwant to continue doing it.
So, yeah, every activity that Ido, the zine as well, the most
(19:52):
special zine was started as away to, you know, give an outlet
to people who are passionateabout horror and about writing,
who don't necessarily have anyformal training, but to give
them a place to be published andto share all those things that
they're passionate about withthe community, who is always
(20:12):
hungry, always bloodthirsty.
Finbarre Snarey (20:16):
You do mention in your zine the term feral
feminine, which is a wonderfulidea.
Do you think that reflects the?
If you were to I don't know ifyou were to get all of the
people who attend your eventsand pick somebody else at random
do you feel that these arepeople who typically would be
fairly feminine?
Clelia McElroy (20:31):
I really hope so .
Yeah, I mean so the theme theferal feminine, and the first
issue of the journal.
We did it because we did a filmseason in collaboration with
Nottingham Contemporary and itwas about folklore and feminine
and the monstrous feminine, andthen we called it the feral
(20:53):
feminine feminine.
But it's because a lot of thethemes that we talk about when I
do the course, when I do talks,even in the podcast, is about
feminine rage and how, you know,in society, in everyday life,
there's something that we haveto very much keep under wrap,
because that's not what societywant women, how women to behave,
right, I mean, violence as aconcept is very gendered.
(21:17):
It's accepted of men I'm notsaying it's accepted, but it's.
You know it's not acceptable,rather, but it is accepted
widely that you know men areviolent, but that women should
be angry and revolt is somethingthat is very it's an object
still in today's society andthat's really, you know, it's
ridiculous.
Right, 2025, we're stilltalking about you know, are
(21:39):
women allowed to be angry?
Finbarre Snarey (21:41):
Was it the Greeks who had?
Was it the Menaids, women whowere just stampeding?
You know, cavorting, drinking,shredding, all in their path.
Clelia McElroy (21:51):
Exactly like.
Bring that back, Like what werewe scared to be, you know, to
live in our true selves scaredto be, you know to, to leave in
our true selves.
Finbarre Snarey (22:02):
Sorry, I'm just looking through the uh design
here.
Clelia McElroy (22:03):
Um, I'm just caught by the depiction of
medusa here yeah, done by afantastic local nottingham
artist or amina mamoge, and thatwas the the logo for the first
season of the podcast.
We will say medusa is awonderful patron saint.
Finbarre Snarey (22:17):
Yes, are you assembling like a creative super
team here?
You shouldn't know all theillustrators, the people he'd
run film festivals.
Nottingham feels like a very,um, a very small city sometimes
compared to the likes ofmanchester and birmingham, but
it is so rich when it comes to,so it's closer output, what
trades or kind of?
Think of what the word would bewhat um outlets of creativity?
(22:40):
Do people who connect with tendto have?
Clelia McElroy (22:42):
To have literally everything, and that
is I feel like this is my goal.
It's like I want to.
I want to know everyone,everyone who's like, who has a
you know, even the smallestshred of interest in this.
But yeah, writers, illustratorspodcasters, film programmers,
people who own galleries.
(23:02):
Horror is having such a momentand it's wonderful for what I'm
doing that people are like oh,you take a recent success in
terms of box office, of thesubstance, people are talking
about this film and body horror.
And it can be frustrating, Ithink, for horror lovers that
people feel like, oh, this isour thing and you know, actually
(23:25):
it's been around for a reallylong time.
And like now, because it'shaving this moment in mainstream
media, you know people aretaking it seriously.
But I think it's great.
It's like let's talk about itand let's you know, the more
people engage with it, thebetter for everyone, surely?
But yeah, but in terms of theNottingham community, I mean, as
you said, it's a small city butit packs such a powerful punch
(23:48):
in terms of talent, the talentin the city, just it blows my
mind.
I spent 15 years living inCambridge before moving to
Nottingham.
I mean, I was kind of all overthe place Cambridge, london,
bristol but as soon as I arrivedin and I tried in that time to
get film communities off theground, but it just never really
(24:10):
happened as soon as I arrivedin Nottingham it was like people
just welcomed me with open armsand it was just I don't know,
there's something, something inthe water in Nottingham.
I love it.
Finbarre Snarey (24:20):
So if people listening to this have felt
their bloodlust stirring and thenight in their veins, how would
they be able to either getinvolved or come along to any of
these events?
What's the best way?
Clelia McElroy (24:31):
So they can link with me via Instagram or any
social media platform.
They can look at the websitemonstersfleshcouk.
Just send me a message and I'dlove to hear from anyone.
Finbarre Snarey (24:48):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forcoming here today.
Thank you, that was so great.
Thank you so much Thank you forjoining us on this captivating
episode of Tarot Interviews.
Heartfelt thanks to CleliaMcElroy for taking us through
the worlds of horror andrepresentation.
To explore more of Clelia'swork, including upcoming events
for the Monstrous Flesh podcast,visit https://monstrousflesh.
co.
uk.
(25:08):
Stay tuned for our next episode, where we meet more curious
minds.
Tarot Interviews plenary community
venture that explores therepresentation of women and
non-binary individuals in horrorthrough curated film courses,
events and thought-provokingpodcasts.
Clearly, alongside co-host drmegan kenny, fearlessly pull
back the shower curtain on theorigins of horror tropes,
offering a fresh and inclusiveperspective on the genre.
Clelia McElroy (00:58):
Let's shuffle the deck and uncover the stories
of, shaped clearly as journeywhen I got message, it was just
so such an amazing, you know,such an amazing thing to receive
, because I've only recently gotinto reading tarot myself,
after years of being completelycynical about it, because my mom
is really into all this and tothe point where I mean, yeah,
(01:20):
she's a very intuitive person,which I love and I've really
learned to love.
But I think, growing up in areally small community, I think
people were very judgmental ofit and it's something that I
really actively rejected for areally long time.
But actually, you know, growingolder and actually that's
something that we bond over alot.
So in the last few months, Igot myself a deck as well and
(01:43):
started doing little readings.
I'm like really absolutelyloving it.
So when I got your message, Igot myself a deck as well and
started doing little readings.
I'm like really absolutelyloving it.
So when I got your message, Iwas just like this is amazing.
It's like a message from theuniverse.
Finbarre Snarey (01:52):
Thank, you so much and thank you for joining
me on the show as well.
Clelia McElroy (01:56):
Delighted to be here.
Finbarre Snarey (01:58):
Excellent.
Now I'm detecting a very slighttrace of an accent that doesn't
sound like it's from Beeston.
Clelia McElroy (02:04):
How rude.
Finbarre Snarey (02:07):
Where else have you lived, apart from Nazim?
Clelia McElroy (02:08):
So I'm originally from France, from a
little place called Carcassonne.
Finbarre Snarey (02:14):
Carcassonne.
I've only been there twice andje parle français un petit peu,
but that's as far as I go, butCarc's beautiful.
Clelia McElroy (02:24):
It is a beautiful place.
So I've been in the UK forabout 20 years now, so you know
I always get really nervous,especially when I tell people
that I'm French and people starttalking back at me in French
because my French is abysmal.
Now, as a result, I know it'slike it's hard to believe.
Obviously, yes, I'm fluent inFrench, but wasn't.
(02:52):
I knew it's like it's hard tobelieve.
Obviously, yes, I'm fluent infrench, but I.
But, yes, it doesn't come asnaturally to me as it used to.
So so, yeah, I left when I was18 and I've always been in the
uk since.
So but yes, it is, it is abeautiful place.
I have conflicted emotionslinked to it because I just
can't.
It kind of never felt like ahome to me, whereas when I
arrived in the uk immediately Iwas like this is my culture,
which, which I know is a weirdthing to say.
Finbarre Snarey (03:10):
One of my great regrets is choosing French for
my GCSEs.
Now, the reason why I pickedFrench was at the time I was in
love with a lady called HeatherBrown and I wanted to impress
her with Baudelaire's poetry andI wanted to be able to recite
it in the original French.
And I mean, I love Baudelaire'spoetry and I'm very glad that I
(03:31):
did that.
But when I went to France I wasthinking this this doesn't feel
right.
I was in Paris and you know,with the graffiti and the smell
and the places that I went to,the only place that I really
liked was Notre Dame.
I visited Sacré-Cœur and itgave me really weird vibes Went
all around Pigalle because ofcourse I'm a tourist and of
(03:51):
course you do.
I must say that Notre Dame,that was the crown jewel.
Hopefully they've rebuilt it ina way that's fitting for the
building.
It was a gorgeous place,especially the gargoyles on the
top and the view over the prisonrooftops.
Clelia McElroy (04:03):
Yes, it's really .
Yeah, it's something that'sreally special, but I can see
you know the disconnect thatyou're talking about.
I mean, I assume that this iswhat you mean.
It's.
Finbarre Snarey (04:11):
Paris syndrome that I'm suffering from?
Clelia McElroy (04:13):
Yes, no, from the poetry of Baudelaire to you
know, to actually visiting Parisis quite a big step, isn't?
Finbarre Snarey (04:22):
Yes, it was a bit of a culture shock.
Clelia McElroy (04:23):
Yes, yes, and may I say, by the way, although,
as I said, I have conflictingemotions about you know my
culture and being French, but sobeing Parisian and being French
, it's two different things.
Finbarre Snarey (04:34):
Oh really yeah right, well, I do believe it's
time for the cards.
So what I'm going to do keepshuffling until you say stop,
okay, and then I'll split thedeck and then I'll shuffle again
, and then you pick either thetop or the bottom card, right,
okay?
Yeah, so you know there's nochicanery, okay, so we're
starting with the seven ofswords.
(04:56):
What vibes do you get from mycard?
Clelia McElroy (04:59):
It looks heavy, looks like a heavy burden.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
I don't really know much aboutthe significance of this card.
I don't know anything about thesignificance card, sorry.
Finbarre Snarey (05:11):
Rather I should be honest about that, okay um
the seven of swords can oftenrepresent um duplicity, it can
represent betrayal, it canrepresent, I think, um etu brute
, know, the whole kind of knivesin the back, inspiring.
Okay, that's the kind of thingthat we're looking at.
So, as you're a lovely personand you would never do such a
(05:33):
thing, maybe it's all coming outnow.
When it comes to your talks,when it comes to the work that
guides you, how do you handlesensitive topics without
compromising your authenticityor integrity?
Clelia McElroy (05:46):
I mean I think then, the reason why I do this,
the reason why I started doingthese talks and these courses
and the reason why I still do it, is because I do love
facilitating conversations, evenif they're difficult
conversations.
So we were talking before and Iwas saying that in every talk,
in every course that I do, therewill be those difficult
(06:06):
questions arising and I mean Idon't see my role as just I'm
not there to justify oneviewpoint or another.
I know what I believe and Ithink it's very clear in the
ideas that I discuss in thosecourses, but by any means I'm
not there to impose my viewpointon people.
(06:28):
I think you know from thosedifficult questions there are so
many interesting conversationsthat arises Sometimes you can
put a, you know you can putpeople's back up, but my role as
a facilitator is just to makepeople comfortable to ask those
questions and therefore peopleto have discussions.
And if it gets a bit heated thenyou know all the better for it.
(06:48):
It's like we're there to shareand you know it's really
difficult to change people'sminds right at the end of the
day.
But I think if people are opento have these conversations then
you know it's a beautiful thing.
Finbarre Snarey (06:58):
Yes, I mean having witnessed one of your
fabulous talks myself.
I did come home and talkedabout what I'd heard, and one of
the first things that I wasasked was well, do they do one
about men?
Are you often faced with that?
But what about men?
Clelia McElroy (07:12):
All the time, all the time, and I guess my you
know.
My answer to this is I can onlytalk about the things that I
know.
Um, so I you know the same waythat you know I touch about a.
You know the same way that youknow I touch about.
You know a lot of topics in thecourse and actually I do talk
about.
You know the role of men inhorror and you know we have
these discussions around this,but you know equally talk about
(07:33):
the role of non-binary people inhorror and you know people of
color in horror and everything.
And you know I can offer theinformation that I have on this
topic.
I can offer the informationthat I have on this topic, but
the idea is really to open it upto people whose experience
relate to those things, and thatis the point of it.
I'm not there to be anauthority on anything.
(07:54):
I'm just there to encouragepeople to look at those films
and look at those texts in a waythat relates to their own
experiences and to hopefullymake you know, make them look at
it, yeah, in an interesting way, and to reflect on how, you
know, that shapes ourexperiences in society and how
we can, you know.
Yeah, learn something and bebetter humans, I guess.
Finbarre Snarey (08:18):
As part of the Seven of Swords, about
countering a pakeness withtransparency.
When you arrive in a venue andyou're talking about monstrous
things, you're talking abouthorror, you're talking about
evil things, obviously throughthe lens of feminism.
Have you had any problems withvenues raising an eyebrow about
(08:38):
your subject matter, asking youare you going to be talking
about blood?
Have you had any challenges inbooking venues?
I?
Have you had any challenges inbooking venues?
Clelia McElroy (08:46):
I haven't had any challenges so much in
booking venues.
I've definitely had thosequestions about you know who is
it suitable for?
You know what are you themesthat I'm covering?
If you know there's an agelimit, and you know my response
is always that I try I make itas inclusive as possible.
You know I put it out therebasically for people to decide.
It's like yes, you know, thoseare the things that we're
(09:07):
covering in the courses that Ido.
I don't show um explicit clipsfrom films, for example, even if
we're talking about veryexplicit themes.
I'm like you know this is outthere for you to to look at if
you, if you're interested inthis.
But equally, my, my aim withyou when I talk about those
things is not to put people off.
It's on the contrary, what Ilove about doing talks and
(09:31):
courses like this is to havepeople who come from a place of.
I hate horror.
I don't understand what horrorhas to do with feminism.
In fact, you know those twothings are completely opposite.
So you know how can you bringthose two things together?
And I always say you know, comealong, let me change your mind
and I do it in a reallyrespectful way.
That you know that means thatpeople all of a sudden engage
(09:52):
with a genre that is, you know,historically, you know has a
very misogynistic label attachedto it, in a way that makes
people think maybe maybe it'sconvenient for some people that
you know that that horror, youknow, appears that way to
mainstream audiences.
You know who does it serve bydoing this?
And actually, when we deep diveinto it, all those themes
(10:13):
they've serving, you know theyshould serve us, as you know, as
, as women, as non-binary people, you know to, um, you know to,
to, yeah, to connect in adifferent you know on a
different level.
Finbarre Snarey (10:23):
Absolutely and I can see because your eyes
blazing as you're telling methis you must be so good at
these talks and events that youhold to be able to connect with
people of a like mind,especially with you.
Know the prevailing culturesthat are increasingly attacking
you.
Know the rights of people whoare non-binary, the people who
(10:47):
are different to the norm.
I was happily watching yourtalk with the collection of
weirdos around me myself, as aself-confessed weirdo.
Right second card hello.
(11:11):
Oh, you've probably got a lotto say about this one.
Clelia McElroy (11:14):
What do we see here?
I don't know.
It's encouraging.
I'm really glad to see thisafter the swords um, I don't
know.
Hopefully, speaking to mypassion for the subject and
being able to communicate thiseffectively into other people,
I'm hoping, or my desire, to beloved by the community.
Finbarre Snarey (11:35):
Maybe it's funny that this card should come
up, because I was discussingjust the other day with a friend
of mine the similaritiesbetween this and the devil card,
which I imagine is somethingthat's probably popped up.
You know the films and themedia that you would normally
look at and how the devil cardcorrupts the image of the lovers
and plants chains around theirnecks and they're kind of, you
(11:57):
know, being yoked by the um.
You know the infernal almightyabove them instead of the
celestial almighty here.
Okay, the lovers is that kindof connection of of true union.
Could you share how yourcollaboration with your co-host,
dr megan kenny, has influencedthe direction and content of
your podcast?
Clelia McElroy (12:17):
yes, uh, so meg and I met because she issued, I
did one of the courses.
I offered it online and shejoined the course and we
immediately there was like sucha strong connection there.
She was so interested, sopassionate about what I was
talking about and immediatelyafter the course ended, she was
(12:38):
very keen for us to be in touchand to work together, to work on
something together, and thepodcast actually was the
Monsters Fresh podcast was heridea, which I was like, yeah,
why not?
You know, that sounds great.
I'm always up for you know,talking about you know, talking
about those themes and women inhorror with other women.
It's like how incredible.
(13:03):
This is the reason why I startedthis.
The community course in thefirst place was to meet people,
like-minded people, and Meg is afolklorist, so she's coming at
it from a really interestingangle because she's very
interested.
She loves horror, she waswriting about horror, she's a
very proficient writer, butshe's also very interested about
the connection between horrorstories and folklore and
mythology, so bringing thosethings together and this is a
(13:24):
thing that I'm interested in aswell, but she's done extensive
research into it.
Finbarre Snarey (13:28):
You mentioned previously that she's a
folklorist.
What is that?
Clelia McElroy (13:33):
Well, it's a drastic.
We have this discussion all thetime.
I think it's kind of it's aterm that Meg has appropriated
basically saying who's going totell me I'm not a folklorist?
I am passionate aboutfolklorists.
I write about folkloricmythology.
I am a specialist in thesubject.
Therefore I am a folklorist.
Finbarre Snarey (13:52):
She's the original.
She's like folklorist zero.
Clelia McElroy (13:54):
She is exactly.
Yeah, she really is, and I dolove this.
I mean, I think Meg gives me somuch confidence into what we're
doing and what we're talkingabout.
And I'm a very anxious personand I very often feel like am I
doing the right thing?
Am I the right person to talkabout those things and bring
people together?
(14:14):
But Meg is very much, like youknow, pushed all those things
aside and you know, if you havesomething that you want to say,
you have to say it and you'llfind the right people.
So I think Meg really bringsthat dimension of this is
important and what we talk aboutis important, and there are
people out there who want totalk about those things and we
(14:34):
want to bring them together andthat's the joy of it.
So, yeah, I just absolutelylove working with and working
together.
Finbarre Snarey (14:43):
And you mentioned, meg is living in
far-flung Manchester.
How often do you get to meet?
Clelia McElroy (14:47):
We don't get to meet very often, to be honest.
I think we've been workingtogether for a couple of years
now and we've met only a coupleof times in person.
You know, that's the beauty ofthe digital age, right in some
respect?
I mean, we're on Zoom, you know, every week, and we respect I
mean, we're on uh zoom, you knowevery week, and we, you know,
we're on whatsapp every day, youknow even voice messages.
(15:08):
So I thought we feel veryconnected, even though we know
we'd love to be able to, to gettogether more often, but yes,
this is the first in-personinterview for tarot interviews.
Finbarre Snarey (15:18):
I have to say thank you so much for coming
here, because we tend to we usea Riverside to talk to people,
mainly sometimes on Zoom as well.
It's quite refreshing toactually have you here in person
, right?
Okay, so your third card.
That was a good one to get.
Now, what I'm doing is I'mkeeping these down here so they
don't go back into the deck, soyou don't get the same ones
(15:39):
twice.
Shame.
Clelia McElroy (15:40):
More love out of that.
Finbarre Snarey (15:45):
I think it's just so people don't get death,
death and death, of course.
Well, let me give these alittle shuffle, and it's funny
how some cards just don't comeup as well like um, yeah, I'm
gonna tempt fate here.
I never get temperance.
Okay, I never get the world twocards that just don't feature
the lovers.
I see a lot, the hanged man alot.
It's one of my favorite cards.
Clelia McElroy (16:01):
That's really interesting, I mean, and we
talked about a little bit beforeand I was saying that I
recently got into tarot anddoing, you know, little readings
, uh, but he had that cardhangman never.
Never comes out for me andthink temperance, maybe once for
for someone else.
But you know, you're right inthere.
Finbarre Snarey (16:20):
Rare cards to uh, they're elusive, it's almost
like they're.
You know, if there were pokemonthey'd be the shinies, you know
.
Do you know what I'm reallytempted one day just to get a
stack of, if they don't cost asmall fortune?
Now?
Uh, sort of gen one pokemoncards and just do a reading.
With that right, you've got.
You've got squirtle.
Talk to me about this now,that's true talent.
Clelia McElroy (16:37):
You're reading around this let's right
Shuffling away.
Finbarre Snarey (16:43):
Stop, Okay, the three of cups.
How's that looking?
Clelia McElroy (16:51):
I mean always when I See cups, I always think,
oh, is it about, you know,filling your cup with hope?
So yeah, and you know, b3 is avery important number in
numerology and in terms of Covenas well.
I mean, I'm getting hints ofwitches in Coven.
(17:11):
Coven's a good word.
Finbarre Snarey (17:13):
I imagine that's something that comes up
in your talks a lot, very muchso.
Clelia McElroy (17:17):
I'm always transposing horror themes on
whatever I'm doing.
Finbarre Snarey (17:21):
I have to ask is Coven specific to groups of
non-binary and female-presentingpeople?
Can men join Covens?
Clelia McElroy (17:31):
I think so, absolutely.
I mean, don't get me wrongagain, I have no authority on
this, but in my view, Coven isanother word for community, in
my opinion, so it should beinclusive and accepting.
Finbarre Snarey (17:49):
Right Three of Cups.
My question for you is how doyou foster that sense of
community and collaboration withyour audience and peers?
Clelia McElroy (17:59):
It's something that I've been thinking about a
lot recently.
I actually attended a paneldiscussion on community building
at the beginning of Februaryand it was so eye-opening and it
was so enlightening in thesense that I think that when I
started Monstrous Flesh I'd justmoved to Nottingham and it was
very much a case of, ok, I wantto meet people who are
(18:19):
interested in the same thingthat I am, want to talk about
the same issues that I'minterested in.
And it was very much.
It was very grassroots and youknow it started with a group of
10 people meeting at a communitycentre and then kind of grew
from there.
And you know, obviously ithasn't.
You know it's not that he'sgrown into something, you know,
enormous or something, but Ikind of feel like along the way
maybe I have lost this a littlebit, and so it was really nice
(18:42):
to, at the start of this year,to put it back to what I wanted
to do when I started MonsterSpecial, which was to grow a
community as much as possible.
But the way that I like tothink that I do this is by
working with other groups from.
You know, in the film scene inNottingham, somebody who I
absolutely love working with isEmma Duncan from Fortune and
(19:04):
Glory Film Club, who's ainclusive queer film club in
Nottingham, and Emma is veryinterested in horror as well.
We met through the course again.
We met through the course againand what we started doing is,
each year, on InternationalWomen's Day, we started running
an event about women in horror,showing short films or feature
films, inviting artists andcreators local artists and
(19:27):
creators to come and talk andsell their wares and, you know,
having this big party basicallycelebrating women and women in
horror.
And we're doing it'll be thefourth iteration this year doing
it so excited, and these arethe things that remind me why I
started, most especially why Iwant to continue doing it.
So, yeah, every activity that Ido, the zine as well, the most
(19:52):
special zine was started as away to, you know, give an outlet
to people who are passionateabout horror and about writing,
who don't necessarily have anyformal training, but to give
them a place to be published andto share all those things that
they're passionate about withthe community, who is always
(20:12):
hungry, always bloodthirsty.
Finbarre Snarey (20:16):
You do mention in your zine the term feral
feminine, which is a wonderfulidea.
Do you think that reflects the?
If you were to I don't know ifyou were to get all of the
people who attend your eventsand pick somebody else at random
do you feel that these arepeople who typically would be
fairly feminine?
Clelia McElroy (20:31):
I really hope so .
Yeah, I mean so the theme theferal feminine, and the first
issue of the journal.
We did it because we did a filmseason in collaboration with
Nottingham Contemporary and itwas about folklore and feminine
and the monstrous feminine, andthen we called it the feral
(20:53):
feminine feminine.
But it's because a lot of thethemes that we talk about when I
do the course, when I do talks,even in the podcast, is about
feminine rage and how, you know,in society, in everyday life,
there's something that we haveto very much keep under wrap,
because that's not what societywant women, how women to behave,
right, I mean, violence as aconcept is very gendered.
(21:17):
It's accepted of men I'm notsaying it's accepted, but it's.
You know it's not acceptable,rather, but it is accepted
widely that you know men areviolent, but that women should
be angry and revolt is somethingthat is very it's an object
still in today's society andthat's really, you know, it's
ridiculous.
Right, 2025, we're stilltalking about you know, are
(21:39):
women allowed to be angry?
Finbarre Snarey (21:41):
Was it the Greeks who had?
Was it the Menaids, women whowere just stampeding?
You know, cavorting, drinking,shredding, all in their path.
Clelia McElroy (21:51):
Exactly like.
Bring that back, Like what werewe scared to be, you know, to
live in our true selves scaredto be, you know to, to leave in
our true selves.
Finbarre Snarey (22:02):
Sorry, I'm just looking through the uh design
here.
Clelia McElroy (22:03):
Um, I'm just caught by the depiction of
medusa here yeah, done by afantastic local nottingham
artist or amina mamoge, and thatwas the the logo for the first
season of the podcast.
We will say medusa is awonderful patron saint.
Finbarre Snarey (22:17):
Yes, are you assembling like a creative super
team here?
You shouldn't know all theillustrators, the people he'd
run film festivals.
Nottingham feels like a very,um, a very small city sometimes
compared to the likes ofmanchester and birmingham, but
it is so rich when it comes to,so it's closer output, what
trades or kind of?
Think of what the word would bewhat um outlets of creativity?
(22:40):
Do people who connect with tendto have?
Clelia McElroy (22:42):
To have literally everything, and that
is I feel like this is my goal.
It's like I want to.
I want to know everyone,everyone who's like, who has a
you know, even the smallestshred of interest in this.
But yeah, writers, illustratorspodcasters, film programmers,
people who own galleries.
(23:02):
Horror is having such a momentand it's wonderful for what I'm
doing that people are like oh,you take a recent success in
terms of box office, of thesubstance, people are talking
about this film and body horror.
And it can be frustrating, Ithink, for horror lovers that
people feel like, oh, this isour thing and you know, actually
(23:25):
it's been around for a reallylong time.
And like now, because it'shaving this moment in mainstream
media, you know people aretaking it seriously.
But I think it's great.
It's like let's talk about itand let's you know, the more
people engage with it, thebetter for everyone, surely?
But yeah, but in terms of theNottingham community, I mean, as
you said, it's a small city butit packs such a powerful punch
(23:48):
in terms of talent, the talentin the city, just it blows my
mind.
I spent 15 years living inCambridge before moving to
Nottingham.
I mean, I was kind of all overthe place Cambridge, london,
bristol but as soon as I arrivedin and I tried in that time to
get film communities off theground, but it just never really
(24:10):
happened as soon as I arrivedin Nottingham it was like people
just welcomed me with open armsand it was just I don't know,
there's something, something inthe water in Nottingham.
I love it.
Finbarre Snarey (24:20):
So if people listening to this have felt
their bloodlust stirring and thenight in their veins, how would
they be able to either getinvolved or come along to any of
these events?
What's the best way?
Clelia McElroy (24:31):
So they can link with me via Instagram or any
social media platform.
They can look at the websitemonstersfleshcouk.
Just send me a message and I'dlove to hear from anyone.
Finbarre Snarey (24:48):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forcoming here today.
Thank you, that was so great.
Thank you so much Thank you forjoining us on this captivating
episode of Tarot Interviews.
Heartfelt thanks to CleliaMcElroy for taking us through
the worlds of horror andrepresentation.
To explore more of Clelia'swork, including upcoming events
for the Monstrous Flesh podcast,visit https://monstrousflesh.
co.
uk.
(25:08):
Stay tuned for our next episode, where we meet more curious
minds.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.