May 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Kate Gray is a British games writer and journalist with over a decade of experience in the industry. Based in Canada, she specializes in dialogue writing, narrative procedural generation, and storytelling through design. Her notable works include serving as the Narrative Lead for Moonstone Island and Winding Worlds, as well as contributing to Goodbye Volcano High.
Kate's journalism has been featured in publications such as Rock Paper Shotgun, and The Guardian. She is also an experienced public speaker, video presenter, critic, and panelist .
Learn more and explore her work at: https://kategray.me
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Tarot Interviews credits
- Host and producer: Finbarre Snarey
- Theme music composer: Amelia Lawn
- Additional music: Nicola Snarey
- Cover art: Rein G
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Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Finbarre Snarey (00:19):
Tarot Interviews.
Kate Gray is a writer with deeppassion for storytelling,
worldbuilding and interactivenarratives.
With a background in gamesjournalism, she has written for
major publications like RockPaper Shotgun, Kotaku and the
(00:43):
Guardian.
Beyond journalism, Kate hasbrought stories to life through
in-game writing for projectslike the wonderfully wholesome
creature-collecting gameMoonstone Island.
And here she is now Hi, hello.
Kate Gray (00:56):
How are you doing?
Good, I just came back from thegym.
I don't usually go to the gymthis early in the morning, but
yeah, it makes me sound verylike like I have my shit
together but I don't.
I sort of signed up for this,being like I have no idea.
I love tarot stuff, so I justwanted to sort of check it out.
Yeah, I mean I I think thegreat thing about tarot is that
(01:19):
people like to hear aboutthemselves.
You're turning over the cards,you're saying a fact about
someone and they're like yeah,they're like 100 me exactly um.
Finbarre Snarey (01:30):
What decks have you got yourself lovely?
Kate Gray (01:32):
I have a.
I don't know where they areright now, but I have a Major
Arcana one that a friend of minedrew.
Really it's got a lot of likethemes in it, like snakes and
hands are the sort of themes.
It's all black and white andit's very beautiful, and I think
themes in it like snakes andhands are the sort of themes.
It's all black and white andit's very beautiful, and I think
that's the only one I currentlyhave, because I usually let
other people read my tarot forme.
(01:52):
I'm hoping that those have theIkea one.
I have the Ikea tarot.
Sorry, the ikea tarot what oh,you should check it out.
It is usable, um because doesit form into?
A chair it's unofficial, Ishould say uh, but it is based
on ikea products.
Um, I can't remember any ofthem, but, like, every single
(02:13):
one of the major arcana is likea ikea product, um, and I forget
what these suits are, but I'mgonna say it's like lamps and
chairs and things like that.
Finbarre Snarey (02:24):
Soft furnishings yeah.
Kate Gray (02:25):
Yeah, it's not a usable tarot.
It's mostly a joke, but it's agood joke.
Finbarre Snarey (02:31):
Okay, so you've written for major publications
like Rock Paper, shotgun, Kotaku, the Guardian.
Are all of these right?
Kate Gray (02:37):
Yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (02:38):
Yeah, fab, beyond journalism, you've
brought stories to life throughin-game writing for projects
like and I put the wonderfullywholesome creature collecting
game Moonstone Island becauseI'm going to have to buy it
after this interview.
Oh thanks, it looks so sweet.
I mean, my kids have playedsomething that looked kind of
familiar, like I think it'sCassette Beasts.
Kate Gray (03:00):
Yeah, it's the same publisher.
We're friends with the CassetteBeast people as well.
We have we have a crossover inthe game with actually, wow, we
did like a collab event.
Finbarre Snarey (03:10):
So, yeah, yeah, nailed it okay, uh, so on that
topic, just kind of give me anidea of you.
Uh, who is your favoritePokemon of all time?
Kate Gray (03:19):
oh, I have um.
Somewhere in this room I haveart that says what my favorite
ones are, and I can't put it umI'm pretty sure they're first
gen, because I won't know whothey are otherwise no, they're
not.
Oh sorry, the first gen arefine, but I feel like it's it's
it's too obvious.
Um, this, this painting backhere that you absolutely cannot
see because it is blurry, is ofSnom, which is probably my
(03:41):
current favorite Pokemon.
It's a sort of is that thesleepy?
one.
No, oh okay, I don't know whatgeneration Snom is like seventh
or something like that.
He's quite a reason.
One middle he's.
No, I do like a lot of theweasel ones, though I think for.
Uh, for it might be on my list.
(04:02):
Wish I could remember where I'dput my list.
It's a very useful referencedocument, but it's not here,
evidently.
Finbarre Snarey (04:09):
So yeah, I love the fact that you have a list
on hand of favorite Pokemon,just in case somebody asks that
question.
Kate Gray (04:15):
Yeah, my partner made it for me because I have a list
of like maybe 20, 15 to 20favorites and he noticed that
all of them were either round orsoft.
Finbarre Snarey (04:28):
Okay, so the round one that's bristling with
magnets isn't.
Kate Gray (04:33):
No, they have to be sort of a sweet round, like a
Jigglypuff round, sort of lookslike it's.
Finbarre Snarey (04:40):
Oh, you're one of those okay.
Kate Gray (04:43):
Absolutely yes, yeah, I mean, for me it's one of
those.
Okay, absolutely yes, yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (04:46):
I mean, for me it's Gengar.
Gengar is simply the best andmy kids will come to me and say
he's not the best and I was likehe'll be all of your Pokemon,
just bring them on.
Kate Gray (04:58):
Yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (04:59):
The Pokemon of Hubris.
Kate Gray (05:05):
There probably is.
Since first gen they'veprobably released a pokemon that
is called the pokemon of hubris.
Finbarre Snarey (05:07):
At some point, like they'll be given an
imaginative name like hubris oror something yeah, there is a
Pokemon that is canonically godin the Pokemon universe, so I've
got a question.
So do you have, like Pokemon,bishops and rabbis, or?
Kate Gray (05:23):
There's a Pokemon called bishop, so I think he's
chess themed.
So yes, it got really weird.
It's gone places since firstgen, so it's.
Finbarre Snarey (05:38):
Yes, it's evolved in many ways.
Okay, all right, let me have aquick look and let me get card.
So the way this works is I'llgive these a little shuffle and
whenever you feel like you'dlike me to stop, just say stop
and I'll cut the deck Right.
Let me place the card down, andwhen I do, I'd like you to say
(05:58):
what the card is and justdescribe it a little.
Okay, okay.
Kate Gray (06:12):
The Page of Pentacles .
Uh, we've got a guy wearing avery silly red hat.
Um, he's sort of standing onone leg in a beautiful meadow
and holding a big old coin inhis hand have you ever seen this
card before?
I don't usually get pentacles,so no, okay so page pentacles.
Finbarre Snarey (06:29):
You've got the youthful, eager energy of
learning, growth, newopportunities, and obviously
it's a card of materialism, soit's normally in the material or
practical realms.
So it's a new opportunity,often things like a new job.
Hmm, that's what it would be ifI was telling your future.
But I'm here to ask you aquestion.
So question I'm going to askyou is what's a skill you're
(06:55):
looking forward to developing?
Kate Gray (06:57):
This is, I think, uh, quite a soft skill which I
think are more important thanpeople give them credit for.
But I'm looking forward todeveloping, being able to work
with my partner.
We're both game developers ofdifferent sort of trades.
Uh, he's much more on theprogramming, building things,
(07:17):
and I'm much more on like thesort of more creative writing
side of things, and we want tomake things together because
together we have all the skillsyou need to to make a game in
various amounts.
But usually I work with a teamwhere there is a hierarchy and
when you work with your partner,that sort of doesn't slash,
(07:38):
can't exist in the same way.
You sort of have to go back andforth in the same way that you
do in a relationship, where oneday one of you will be giving
80% and the other is 20%, andthen maybe it's 50-50 and then
maybe it switches to the otherway and it's difficult.
It is very difficult to sort ofbring the workplace into a
relationship and I'm sure it'sruined a lot of relationships.
(08:00):
So that's what I would like todevelop this year.
Finbarre Snarey (08:06):
Okay, so, following on from that, are
there any games that you'veplayed recently that you wish
you had developed yourself,because you feel that you could
have done them better?
Kate Gray (08:15):
All of them oh no, not that I could have done them
better, I'm just like latelyI've been playing a lot of games
from like oh my god, this ideawas just out there and I I could
have grabbed it.
Um, I think everybody feelsthat way sometimes about
creative products, likeespecially when you're looking
at, like, let's say, modern art.
People look at it and they go Icould have done that.
It's like, yeah, but you didn't, you didn't, anyone could have,
(08:37):
but but only one person did.
But in terms of games, like, Icould have done that better.
Not because I think the peopledid it badly.
I think they did the best thatthey could under extremely
difficult circumstances verydiplomatic answer.
I like it you have to be, but,uh, I know so many people in the
industry.
Um, I think a lot of peopleplaying dragon age veil guard
(08:58):
looked at it and were just likethis seems like such a missed
opportunity with such anincredible um team of people and
and such a great as much as Ihate saying the phrase ip what,
what a great intellectualproperty this is, and it it
could have been it.
It had some great moments and Ireally think that the writers
(09:18):
and the rest of the team didwhat they could, but it just
feels like it was.
It was a too many cookssituation.
Sometimes it feels like it wasa management changing their mind
about things and makingeveryone's lives and jobs really
difficult, and it just feelslike man, this, this could have
been amazing and instead I Ithink it was only able to half
(09:42):
accomplish a lot of its ideas,um, and it's sad to play a game
like that where it has so muchwasted potential.
Finbarre Snarey (09:50):
Okay, I mean, I haven't played that game myself
.
I've played Dragon Age Origins,which I loved, and I was
curious about, when Baldur'sGate 3 came out, how Larian
Studios will have disruptedother studios where suddenly the
bar has been raised so high.
I quite like the game.
The bar has been raised so highthat you're thinking where do
people go next with it, withthis genre?
Kate Gray (10:12):
Yes, well, I think the problem is that a lot of the
higher ups, the sort ofmarketing and ceo types that
maybe don't understand the gamesindustry very well, are looking
at boulders gate 3 and drawingthe wrong conclusions.
They're going boulders gate 3is multiplayer and that's why it
succeeded.
No, no, it's absolutely thewriting that that drives that
game.
It is the writers, having beengiven, like, a, a lot of freedom
(10:36):
and b, a lot of like specificopposite of freedom, because
they have to work within, uh,the sort of DnD structure.
Um, but writers, like, rulethat company pretty much.
So, um, yeah, I I wish thatthat more studios were taking
that as the lesson to learn, notlike just the wrong, the wrong
(11:00):
lessons.
Finbarre Snarey (11:01):
There's a lot of that okay, right, I think
it's time for your next card.
Again, I've been shuffling, sojust tell me when to split the
day.
Kate Gray (11:13):
We have the Six of Pentacles.
I never get pentacles.
This is crazy.
We have six big old floatingcoins in the sky with pentacles
on them, and then we have threefigures.
Two of them appear to be sortof on the ground covered in
thick blankets and begging, andthen, in the middle, holding a
(11:35):
pair of scales, is a wealthierlooking man in a very nice cape
with another silly hat,distributing much smaller coins
to the beggars how many sillyhats do you earn?
Finbarre Snarey (11:49):
I'm sorry that's not my actual question,
but uh, take it as a bonus Ihave one of those sort of like a
pillar box hats.
Kate Gray (11:56):
I think that's fluffy and whenever I wear it I look
like like a russian oligarchfrom the 1920s.
It's pretty cool I mean.
Finbarre Snarey (12:05):
To me it sounds more like a raver from the
1990s.
Kate Gray (12:08):
Oh, okay, I mean yeah , it's versatile.
Many looks one hat.
Finbarre Snarey (12:15):
So Six of Pentacles, a card of generosity.
Balance giving of resourcesrepresents a flow of wealth,
knowledge, assistance,emphasizing the importance of
fairness.
It's when you're in a positionto help others.
Okay, so six of pentacles.
What I'm going to ask, how doyou give back to the gaming
community?
Kate Gray (12:35):
Oh, to the gaming community.
Um, I was gonna say this yearthat I've gone real hard on
charity, like actual, actualcharity, but in terms of giving
back to the community, um, it'sdifficult because I think you,
the best way to give back is isknowledge.
You, you end up with all thisinstitutional knowledge that um
(12:58):
just isn't there, that isn'tvery accessible to newcomers
because a lot of it is lockedaway, uh, behind, like you have
to pay for this conference oryou have to, like sign up to
this service where talks arestored, and so I don't do a lot
of talks anymore because most ofthem aren't paid and I'm tired.
(13:20):
But I sort of I like to post, Ilike to talk to people.
Um, if people ask me for advice, I like to try and give it.
I got a lot more people askingfor advice when I was more
prominent in journalism.
They'd be like, how do I getinto games, journalism?
(13:42):
And I had to stop myself frombeing like, oh god, why, no,
don't what do you?
There aren't any jobs and in ayear there will be even fewer
because they keep firingeverybody.
Finbarre Snarey (13:53):
is that due to the encroachment of AI into
journalism?
Kate Gray (13:57):
Part of it is.
Part of it is just that peopledon't really value games
journalism.
They see it as kind of thissort of like frivolous, hobbyist
thing that we don't need andthat is like very patently
untrue.
Like the, tech journalism hasbeen some of the best journalism
about politics.
(14:18):
Right now, a lot of otherjournalism outlets are just sort
of like looking the other wayand being like oh, who knows
what's happening, and techjournalists are like what are
you talking about?
This is what's happening, whichis crazy.
You know people think thatwe're just like video games toys
, but actually, for some strangereason, gaming is doing a lot
of the work.
Finbarre Snarey (14:39):
I'm not, but other people are, and that's
great Things, like Rock PaperShotgun where I've discovered
more about, say, nfts or morethan I do still or the
blockchain or something likethat.
Kate Gray (14:56):
And all I wanted to know is more about the next
version of Pac-Man.
Yeah, you go in there beinglike yay toys, and then they're
like no, it's time to learn In agood way.
Finbarre Snarey (15:11):
It's a good thing, okay, right Third card.
So it's been pentacles andpentacles, what you're feeling
for the next car?
What do you think is going tocome along?
Kate Gray (15:17):
I'm kind of hoping for some major arcana.
I usually get a lot and they'relike friends, you know, fun
friends with nice pictures.
Finbarre Snarey (15:25):
Fun friends with nice pictures, like
Temperance.
Kate Gray (15:29):
Everyone loves Temperance.
I always like to see The Star.
That's my favorite card.
Finbarre Snarey (15:39):
I did have a Moon necklace, one that just had
the moon on a small silverpendant, which I lost.
So I got myself online and Ithought I need to replace this,
and I realized that buying theentire major arcana in necklace
form was about a tenner morethan the necklace I was looking
at.
So I did so.
I now pull them out like cardsand wear them, and the star
(16:00):
tends to feature most.
Kate Gray (16:01):
I feel um saying that The Star is my favorite card is
is kind of like on theplayground when someone would
say that they wanted to be aunicorn who was also a princess.
Finbarre Snarey (16:11):
You know, like I'm the specialist uh it'd be an
alicorn, surely, I mean, youwant the wings too, right?
Kate Gray (16:18):
you've watched a lot of my little pony, have you?
Finbarre Snarey (16:20):
yes, my son loves it oh it's great.
Kate Gray (16:26):
Um, okay, am I supposed to tell you to stop
shuffling?
I'm shuffling away just whenhow you fancy it let's stop,
okay, right, well, uh, we havethe knight of pentacles.
He is.
He's on a big, beefy lookingblack horse with a red harness
(16:47):
and like a butt harness.
I don't think that's normal forhorses.
The knight has a lot of metalarmor on but harness is normal
for something.
No, sorry, I won't ask thatquestion, please continue he's
got one of those helmets withlike feathers coming out the
back and he's once again holdinga big old coin and there's like
a river of blood in thebackground.
Finbarre Snarey (17:09):
I think that's meant to be mountains, but it's
red, so yeah okay, so knight ofpentacles classically represents
hard work, dedication, amethodical approach and in
achieving long-term successes,and it normally represents a
disciplined approach when needed.
How do you maintain disciplinein your creative work?
Kate Gray (17:32):
Oh, my god, I don't.
Is the problem?
Um, when, when I was growing up, I was usually the smartest kid
in my class, just naturally andI think a lot of people can
probably relate to this whenyou're like a gifted child,
you're like, oh, then I don'thave to try, I found a loophole,
and then you never learn to try, so that's great.
(17:57):
I think a lot of people that Iknow sort of grew up being like
smart and finding things reallyeasy in school and then stepping
out into the real world andbeing like, oh no, this hasn't
prepared me at all.
Like exams, not that useful.
Being good at exams hasn't comeup in my daily life.
(18:18):
I wish it did, because it's askill that I have that I'm just
never going to use again unlessI go back to school, which I'm
not going to do.
So having to sort of find andbuild discipline in my daily
life has been is very difficult.
I have coping techniques.
For example, I've been going tothe gym and I know that I have
(18:40):
to do personal training becauseI have to have a person there
who knows I'm supposed to bethere and is going to yell at me
if I don't work hard enough.
So if I just like oh, I'm goingto the gym, I'm not, I'm not
going to go to the gym, I haveto have a person there and that
is frustrating because it's muchmore expensive.
(19:02):
But it keeps me accountable andmy Google Calendar is kind of
like a version of that, where ifsomething's in my Google
Calendar I'll do it.
So I use that to sort of forcemyself to do things.
But it's not quite the same asdiscipline.
It is external discipline.
I'm still working on findinginternal discipline, you know.
Finbarre Snarey (19:25):
Okay, it's funny you should mention the
thing about your school friendsgoing out into the real world.
I mean it's funny, you shouldmention the um, the thing about
your school friends going outinto the real world.
I mean it's a cliche, but manyof my school friends who've gone
out into the real world, whowere gifted, realized that
somewhere along the line adiagnosis was missed and it
probably is adhd yeah, I wasgonna mention that I've I've not
been diagnosed because I'm on avery long waiting list, but
(19:47):
like we all know, we all know um.
Do you have any particularpassions or focuses at the
moment that you're going all inon?
Kate Gray (19:55):
I mean I really like my job.
I'm lucky that I'm I'm doingcontract work, so I'm working
three different jobs right now.
Uh, so my time is sorry.
Three different jobs, yeah, butthey're all part-time.
Uh, I write for three differentgames that they each take up
about 10 hours a week.
Uh, so it works out at a prettychill week actually, um, a lot
(20:19):
of that is meetings anyway, orlike playing the game that I'm
writing just to check things andeverything like that.
Um, and I get all my work done,which maybe looks like
discipline.
I forgot what the question was.
What do I like to do?
Okay, um, uh, passions.
I've been doing a lot of gameplaying.
Sometimes it's bad if yourhobby is the same as your job,
(20:43):
but I play very different gamesto the ones I write, so it kind
of works out okay.
And what else have I been doing?
I mean, I like to sew, but Ihaven't sat at the sewing
machine in like three months.
I'm making a quilt.
I've been making a quilt forlike three years.
It'll never be finished.
And I've also been trying toget back into art.
(21:06):
I'm not an artist but I do liketo draw and for the game, me
and my partner are extremelyslowly making.
I've been trying to do thecharacter art and I feel like
there's a bunch of things aboutcharacter art that I just don't
know.
Like, oh, you're supposed touse a color palette, you're
supposed to keep it this manypixels?
I don't know any of that.
(21:28):
Keep it this many pixels.
I don't know any of that andI'm trying to let myself not
have to just sort of drawsomething that I think is cute
and that's been surprisingly funand freeing, I guess.
Finbarre Snarey (21:38):
I find it interesting that you say that
you're not an artist and yetyou've just led me through this,
this thinking that you havethis time, that you spend the
kind of aspirations that yeah, Imean, this sounds pretty much
like an artist at work no one'spaid me for it.
Kate Gray (21:52):
No, that's, I have been paid for my art before, but
I think you've been paid aswell.
Yes, I don't know what is anartist nobody knows.
It's you that?
That's what it is.
Fine, I'll take it right.
Finbarre Snarey (22:07):
So what are you doing for the rest of your day?
Kate Gray (22:09):
uh well, I'm going to Japan on monday, so I'm going
to be packing going to Japan.
Finbarre Snarey (22:14):
Whereabouts?
Kate Gray (22:16):
All over.
Well, not like actually allover.
We're going to tokyo, kyoto,osaka, nara, hakone and another
place I can never remember thename of.
It's just like a small town.
I think we're doing like onsensand looking at mountains
kinosaki, that's it, kinosaki.
Finbarre Snarey (22:32):
I don't know anything about it I, I know even
less than you do, but there'sum, there's a few um, islands,
uh, off Japan, these kind ofthese, um sort of primeval
forests that you get yeah, yeahand I would love, love to go
walking through those.
I mean, obviously in autumnthat would be nice, but at any
point, because they're just.
Everything is just encased inmoss and it looks like something
(22:53):
from another world.
I would love to go.
Kate Gray (22:55):
Oh, my partner loves moss Big moss fan.
I'm also a fan of moss, so like, and old forests.
You know I grew up in sort ofnear the Peak District, lots of
forests.
Finbarre Snarey (23:09):
Sorry, the Peak District In.
Kate Gray (23:11):
England.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm British.
I don't know if I said that.
Finbarre Snarey (23:15):
You didn't and you don't still sound it.
You don't sound like you'refrom Derbyshire.
Put it that way.
Kate Gray (23:20):
No, Well, I'm from Leicestershire.
That'd be why I don't have aregional accent at all, and also
being in Canada for seven yearshas softened it even more.
So people are usually likeyou're from somewhere, but I
don't know where it is.
And I'm like Leicester, Like Idon't know what that is either.
Finbarre Snarey (23:40):
We've got dead kings in car parks.
Kate Gray (23:43):
That is like, yeah, that's the only thing we have is
one guy died once and it wasfine, I guess.
Yeah, it's not a veryinteresting part of the country
turns out.
Finbarre Snarey (23:55):
Yeah, I must say I've driven through it many
times.
I've never really stopped.
Kate Gray (24:04):
The next time I'll look out the window and think
Kate's from here.
Yeah, my hometown made Bell'sbells whiskey.
No, like big bells that go bong.
Oh okay, yeah, there was like abell foundry.
I think there still is a bellfoundry.
Um, there can't be a lot ofwork in that, but it still
(24:26):
exists I mean it's funny.
Finbarre Snarey (24:27):
You should say that there's.
There's a town not too far awayfrom here called Hina, where
I've just discovered justyesterday, they create 98% of
the country's Christmas puddings.
They all come from this oneplace.
It's one of those things youdon't stop and think where do
bells come from?
They go from near your oldplace.
Kate Gray (24:48):
Yeah, and you can't just start up a bell foundry now
like you have to have a bunchof molds, steel, I don't know I
don't know, maybe thecraftspeople as well, you know
yeah, yeah, it's probably reallydifficult to get into.
And, uh, lady jane gray camefrom the place I I grew up in as
well.
She was one of the queens.
Okay, for nine days she was Imean she sounds like she's from
(25:09):
the x-men academy, but she doesyeah, and she didn't have any
cool powers, hence why she onlywas queen for nine days and then
got her head cut off.
Finbarre Snarey (25:16):
So oh, um on that subject.
But before you go um, out ofall of the x-men, whose powers
did you want the most?
Kate Gray (25:25):
Oh, some of them don't seem good yeah right, like
laser eyes.
Not that useful um touchingpeople, killing them, not that
useful, uh I don't know.
It depends on the person yeah,but you can't touch anyone um
you could boop someone on thenose.
Finbarre Snarey (25:45):
It'd be death boop, wouldn't it?
I I mean.
Kate Gray (25:49):
I could.
I mean, is it cheating to saythat I wanted the white stripe
that Rogue has in her hair?
Does that count as a power?
Finbarre Snarey (25:55):
It counts as a power because it does look
formidable.
Kate Gray (25:58):
Yeah, okay, that's my answer.
Excellent Cool hair.
Finbarre Snarey (26:03):
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Kate Gray (26:05):
Thank you.
This is really fun.
I can't believe I got allpentacles.
Hopefully that means I'm goingto be rich this year.
I don't know.
Finbarre Snarey (26:14):
As we turn the final card on today's
conversation with Kate Gray,we're left with a deeper
appreciation for the way storiesshape our lives, whether in
games, writing or even tarotitself.
The cards invite us to explorepossibilities, embrace intuition
and uncover meaning inunexpected places.
If Kate's insights resonatedwith you, be sure to follow her
(26:35):
work link in the show notes andsee where her storytelling magic
leads next.
Until then, we'll meet in thenext episode of Tarot Interviews
.
Tarot Interviews.
Kate Gray is a writer with deeppassion for storytelling,
worldbuilding and interactivenarratives.
With a background in gamesjournalism, she has written for
major publications like RockPaper Shotgun, Kotaku and the
(00:43):
Guardian.
Beyond journalism, Kate hasbrought stories to life through
in-game writing for projectslike the wonderfully wholesome
creature-collecting gameMoonstone Island.
And here she is now Hi, hello.
Kate Gray (00:56):
How are you doing?
Good, I just came back from thegym.
I don't usually go to the gymthis early in the morning, but
yeah, it makes me sound verylike like I have my shit
together but I don't.
I sort of signed up for this,being like I have no idea.
I love tarot stuff, so I justwanted to sort of check it out.
Yeah, I mean I I think thegreat thing about tarot is that
(01:19):
people like to hear aboutthemselves.
You're turning over the cards,you're saying a fact about
someone and they're like yeah,they're like 100 me exactly um.
Finbarre Snarey (01:30):
What decks have you got yourself lovely?
Kate Gray (01:32):
I have a.
I don't know where they areright now, but I have a Major
Arcana one that a friend of minedrew.
Really it's got a lot of likethemes in it, like snakes and
hands are the sort of themes.
It's all black and white andit's very beautiful, and I think
themes in it like snakes andhands are the sort of themes.
It's all black and white andit's very beautiful, and I think
that's the only one I currentlyhave, because I usually let
other people read my tarot forme.
(01:52):
I'm hoping that those have theIkea one.
I have the Ikea tarot.
Sorry, the ikea tarot what oh,you should check it out.
It is usable, um because doesit form into?
A chair it's unofficial, Ishould say uh, but it is based
on ikea products.
Um, I can't remember any ofthem, but, like, every single
(02:13):
one of the major arcana is likea ikea product, um, and I forget
what these suits are, but I'mgonna say it's like lamps and
chairs and things like that.
Finbarre Snarey (02:24):
Soft furnishings yeah.
Kate Gray (02:25):
Yeah, it's not a usable tarot.
It's mostly a joke, but it's agood joke.
Finbarre Snarey (02:31):
Okay, so you've written for major publications
like Rock Paper, shotgun, Kotaku, the Guardian.
Are all of these right?
Kate Gray (02:37):
Yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (02:38):
Yeah, fab, beyond journalism, you've
brought stories to life throughin-game writing for projects
like and I put the wonderfullywholesome creature collecting
game Moonstone Island becauseI'm going to have to buy it
after this interview.
Oh thanks, it looks so sweet.
I mean, my kids have playedsomething that looked kind of
familiar, like I think it'sCassette Beasts.
Kate Gray (03:00):
Yeah, it's the same publisher.
We're friends with the CassetteBeast people as well.
We have we have a crossover inthe game with actually, wow, we
did like a collab event.
Finbarre Snarey (03:10):
So, yeah, yeah, nailed it okay, uh, so on that
topic, just kind of give me anidea of you.
Uh, who is your favoritePokemon of all time?
Kate Gray (03:19):
oh, I have um.
Somewhere in this room I haveart that says what my favorite
ones are, and I can't put it umI'm pretty sure they're first
gen, because I won't know whothey are otherwise no, they're
not.
Oh sorry, the first gen arefine, but I feel like it's it's
it's too obvious.
Um, this, this painting backhere that you absolutely cannot
see because it is blurry, is ofSnom, which is probably my
(03:41):
current favorite Pokemon.
It's a sort of is that thesleepy?
one.
No, oh okay, I don't know whatgeneration Snom is like seventh
or something like that.
He's quite a reason.
One middle he's.
No, I do like a lot of theweasel ones, though I think for.
Uh, for it might be on my list.
(04:02):
Wish I could remember where I'dput my list.
It's a very useful referencedocument, but it's not here,
evidently.
Finbarre Snarey (04:09):
So yeah, I love the fact that you have a list
on hand of favorite Pokemon,just in case somebody asks that
question.
Kate Gray (04:15):
Yeah, my partner made it for me because I have a list
of like maybe 20, 15 to 20favorites and he noticed that
all of them were either round orsoft.
Finbarre Snarey (04:28):
Okay, so the round one that's bristling with
magnets isn't.
Kate Gray (04:33):
No, they have to be sort of a sweet round, like a
Jigglypuff round, sort of lookslike it's.
Finbarre Snarey (04:40):
Oh, you're one of those okay.
Kate Gray (04:43):
Absolutely yes, yeah, I mean, for me it's one of
those.
Okay, absolutely yes, yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (04:46):
I mean, for me it's Gengar.
Gengar is simply the best andmy kids will come to me and say
he's not the best and I was likehe'll be all of your Pokemon,
just bring them on.
Kate Gray (04:58):
Yeah.
Finbarre Snarey (04:59):
The Pokemon of Hubris.
Kate Gray (05:05):
There probably is.
Since first gen they'veprobably released a pokemon that
is called the pokemon of hubris.
Finbarre Snarey (05:07):
At some point, like they'll be given an
imaginative name like hubris oror something yeah, there is a
Pokemon that is canonically godin the Pokemon universe, so I've
got a question.
So do you have, like Pokemon,bishops and rabbis, or?
Kate Gray (05:23):
There's a Pokemon called bishop, so I think he's
chess themed.
So yes, it got really weird.
It's gone places since firstgen, so it's.
Finbarre Snarey (05:38):
Yes, it's evolved in many ways.
Okay, all right, let me have aquick look and let me get card.
So the way this works is I'llgive these a little shuffle and
whenever you feel like you'dlike me to stop, just say stop
and I'll cut the deck Right.
Let me place the card down, andwhen I do, I'd like you to say
(05:58):
what the card is and justdescribe it a little.
Okay, okay.
Kate Gray (06:12):
The Page of Pentacles .
Uh, we've got a guy wearing avery silly red hat.
Um, he's sort of standing onone leg in a beautiful meadow
and holding a big old coin inhis hand have you ever seen this
card before?
I don't usually get pentacles,so no, okay so page pentacles.
Finbarre Snarey (06:29):
You've got the youthful, eager energy of
learning, growth, newopportunities, and obviously
it's a card of materialism, soit's normally in the material or
practical realms.
So it's a new opportunity,often things like a new job.
Hmm, that's what it would be ifI was telling your future.
But I'm here to ask you aquestion.
So question I'm going to askyou is what's a skill you're
(06:55):
looking forward to developing?
Kate Gray (06:57):
This is, I think, uh, quite a soft skill which I
think are more important thanpeople give them credit for.
But I'm looking forward todeveloping, being able to work
with my partner.
We're both game developers ofdifferent sort of trades.
Uh, he's much more on theprogramming, building things,
(07:17):
and I'm much more on like thesort of more creative writing
side of things, and we want tomake things together because
together we have all the skillsyou need to to make a game in
various amounts.
But usually I work with a teamwhere there is a hierarchy and
when you work with your partner,that sort of doesn't slash,
(07:38):
can't exist in the same way.
You sort of have to go back andforth in the same way that you
do in a relationship, where oneday one of you will be giving
80% and the other is 20%, andthen maybe it's 50-50 and then
maybe it switches to the otherway and it's difficult.
It is very difficult to sort ofbring the workplace into a
relationship and I'm sure it'sruined a lot of relationships.
(08:00):
So that's what I would like todevelop this year.
Finbarre Snarey (08:06):
Okay, so, following on from that, are
there any games that you'veplayed recently that you wish
you had developed yourself,because you feel that you could
have done them better?
Kate Gray (08:15):
All of them oh no, not that I could have done them
better, I'm just like latelyI've been playing a lot of games
from like oh my god, this ideawas just out there and I I could
have grabbed it.
Um, I think everybody feelsthat way sometimes about
creative products, likeespecially when you're looking
at, like, let's say, modern art.
People look at it and they go Icould have done that.
It's like, yeah, but you didn't, you didn't, anyone could have,
(08:37):
but but only one person did.
But in terms of games, like, Icould have done that better.
Not because I think the peopledid it badly.
I think they did the best thatthey could under extremely
difficult circumstances verydiplomatic answer.
I like it you have to be, but,uh, I know so many people in the
industry.
Um, I think a lot of peopleplaying dragon age veil guard
(08:58):
looked at it and were just likethis seems like such a missed
opportunity with such anincredible um team of people and
and such a great as much as Ihate saying the phrase ip what,
what a great intellectualproperty this is, and it it
could have been it.
It had some great moments and Ireally think that the writers
(09:18):
and the rest of the team didwhat they could, but it just
feels like it was.
It was a too many cookssituation.
Sometimes it feels like it wasa management changing their mind
about things and makingeveryone's lives and jobs really
difficult, and it just feelslike man, this, this could have
been amazing and instead I Ithink it was only able to half
(09:42):
accomplish a lot of its ideas,um, and it's sad to play a game
like that where it has so muchwasted potential.
Finbarre Snarey (09:50):
Okay, I mean, I haven't played that game myself
.
I've played Dragon Age Origins,which I loved, and I was
curious about, when Baldur'sGate 3 came out, how Larian
Studios will have disruptedother studios where suddenly the
bar has been raised so high.
I quite like the game.
The bar has been raised so highthat you're thinking where do
people go next with it, withthis genre?
Kate Gray (10:12):
Yes, well, I think the problem is that a lot of the
higher ups, the sort ofmarketing and ceo types that
maybe don't understand the gamesindustry very well, are looking
at boulders gate 3 and drawingthe wrong conclusions.
They're going boulders gate 3is multiplayer and that's why it
succeeded.
No, no, it's absolutely thewriting that that drives that
game.
It is the writers, having beengiven, like, a, a lot of freedom
(10:36):
and b, a lot of like specificopposite of freedom, because
they have to work within, uh,the sort of DnD structure.
Um, but writers, like, rulethat company pretty much.
So, um, yeah, I I wish thatthat more studios were taking
that as the lesson to learn, notlike just the wrong, the wrong
(11:00):
lessons.
Finbarre Snarey (11:01):
There's a lot of that okay, right, I think
it's time for your next card.
Again, I've been shuffling, sojust tell me when to split the
day.
Kate Gray (11:13):
We have the Six of Pentacles.
I never get pentacles.
This is crazy.
We have six big old floatingcoins in the sky with pentacles
on them, and then we have threefigures.
Two of them appear to be sortof on the ground covered in
thick blankets and begging, andthen, in the middle, holding a
(11:35):
pair of scales, is a wealthierlooking man in a very nice cape
with another silly hat,distributing much smaller coins
to the beggars how many sillyhats do you earn?
Finbarre Snarey (11:49):
I'm sorry that's not my actual question,
but uh, take it as a bonus Ihave one of those sort of like a
pillar box hats.
Kate Gray (11:56):
I think that's fluffy and whenever I wear it I look
like like a russian oligarchfrom the 1920s.
It's pretty cool I mean.
Finbarre Snarey (12:05):
To me it sounds more like a raver from the
1990s.
Kate Gray (12:08):
Oh, okay, I mean yeah , it's versatile.
Many looks one hat.
Finbarre Snarey (12:15):
So Six of Pentacles, a card of generosity.
Balance giving of resourcesrepresents a flow of wealth,
knowledge, assistance,emphasizing the importance of
fairness.
It's when you're in a positionto help others.
Okay, so six of pentacles.
What I'm going to ask, how doyou give back to the gaming
community?
Kate Gray (12:35):
Oh, to the gaming community.
Um, I was gonna say this yearthat I've gone real hard on
charity, like actual, actualcharity, but in terms of giving
back to the community, um, it'sdifficult because I think you,
the best way to give back is isknowledge.
You, you end up with all thisinstitutional knowledge that um
(12:58):
just isn't there, that isn'tvery accessible to newcomers
because a lot of it is lockedaway, uh, behind, like you have
to pay for this conference oryou have to, like sign up to
this service where talks arestored, and so I don't do a lot
of talks anymore because most ofthem aren't paid and I'm tired.
(13:20):
But I sort of I like to post, Ilike to talk to people.
Um, if people ask me for advice, I like to try and give it.
I got a lot more people askingfor advice when I was more
prominent in journalism.
They'd be like, how do I getinto games, journalism?
(13:42):
And I had to stop myself frombeing like, oh god, why, no,
don't what do you?
There aren't any jobs and in ayear there will be even fewer
because they keep firingeverybody.
Finbarre Snarey (13:53):
is that due to the encroachment of AI into
journalism?
Kate Gray (13:57):
Part of it is.
Part of it is just that peopledon't really value games
journalism.
They see it as kind of thissort of like frivolous, hobbyist
thing that we don't need andthat is like very patently
untrue.
Like the, tech journalism hasbeen some of the best journalism
about politics.
(14:18):
Right now, a lot of otherjournalism outlets are just sort
of like looking the other wayand being like oh, who knows
what's happening, and techjournalists are like what are
you talking about?
This is what's happening, whichis crazy.
You know people think thatwe're just like video games toys
, but actually, for some strangereason, gaming is doing a lot
of the work.
Finbarre Snarey (14:39):
I'm not, but other people are, and that's
great Things, like Rock PaperShotgun where I've discovered
more about, say, nfts or morethan I do still or the
blockchain or something likethat.
Kate Gray (14:56):
And all I wanted to know is more about the next
version of Pac-Man.
Yeah, you go in there beinglike yay toys, and then they're
like no, it's time to learn In agood way.
Finbarre Snarey (15:11):
It's a good thing, okay, right Third card.
So it's been pentacles andpentacles, what you're feeling
for the next car?
What do you think is going tocome along?
Kate Gray (15:17):
I'm kind of hoping for some major arcana.
I usually get a lot and they'relike friends, you know, fun
friends with nice pictures.
Finbarre Snarey (15:25):
Fun friends with nice pictures, like
Temperance.
Kate Gray (15:29):
Everyone loves Temperance.
I always like to see The Star.
That's my favorite card.
Finbarre Snarey (15:39):
I did have a Moon necklace, one that just had
the moon on a small silverpendant, which I lost.
So I got myself online and Ithought I need to replace this,
and I realized that buying theentire major arcana in necklace
form was about a tenner morethan the necklace I was looking
at.
So I did so.
I now pull them out like cardsand wear them, and the star
(16:00):
tends to feature most.
Kate Gray (16:01):
I feel um saying that The Star is my favorite card is
is kind of like on theplayground when someone would
say that they wanted to be aunicorn who was also a princess.
Finbarre Snarey (16:11):
You know, like I'm the specialist uh it'd be an
alicorn, surely, I mean, youwant the wings too, right?
Kate Gray (16:18):
you've watched a lot of my little pony, have you?
Finbarre Snarey (16:20):
yes, my son loves it oh it's great.
Kate Gray (16:26):
Um, okay, am I supposed to tell you to stop
shuffling?
I'm shuffling away just whenhow you fancy it let's stop,
okay, right, well, uh, we havethe knight of pentacles.
He is.
He's on a big, beefy lookingblack horse with a red harness
(16:47):
and like a butt harness.
I don't think that's normal forhorses.
The knight has a lot of metalarmor on but harness is normal
for something.
No, sorry, I won't ask thatquestion, please continue he's
got one of those helmets withlike feathers coming out the
back and he's once again holdinga big old coin and there's like
a river of blood in thebackground.
Finbarre Snarey (17:09):
I think that's meant to be mountains, but it's
red, so yeah okay, so knight ofpentacles classically represents
hard work, dedication, amethodical approach and in
achieving long-term successes,and it normally represents a
disciplined approach when needed.
How do you maintain disciplinein your creative work?
Kate Gray (17:32):
Oh, my god, I don't.
Is the problem?
Um, when, when I was growing up, I was usually the smartest kid
in my class, just naturally andI think a lot of people can
probably relate to this whenyou're like a gifted child,
you're like, oh, then I don'thave to try, I found a loophole,
and then you never learn to try, so that's great.
(17:57):
I think a lot of people that Iknow sort of grew up being like
smart and finding things reallyeasy in school and then stepping
out into the real world andbeing like, oh no, this hasn't
prepared me at all.
Like exams, not that useful.
Being good at exams hasn't comeup in my daily life.
(18:18):
I wish it did, because it's askill that I have that I'm just
never going to use again unlessI go back to school, which I'm
not going to do.
So having to sort of find andbuild discipline in my daily
life has been is very difficult.
I have coping techniques.
For example, I've been going tothe gym and I know that I have
(18:40):
to do personal training becauseI have to have a person there
who knows I'm supposed to bethere and is going to yell at me
if I don't work hard enough.
So if I just like oh, I'm goingto the gym, I'm not, I'm not
going to go to the gym, I haveto have a person there and that
is frustrating because it's muchmore expensive.
(19:02):
But it keeps me accountable andmy Google Calendar is kind of
like a version of that, where ifsomething's in my Google
Calendar I'll do it.
So I use that to sort of forcemyself to do things.
But it's not quite the same asdiscipline.
It is external discipline.
I'm still working on findinginternal discipline, you know.
Finbarre Snarey (19:25):
Okay, it's funny you should mention the
thing about your school friendsgoing out into the real world.
I mean it's funny, you shouldmention the um, the thing about
your school friends going outinto the real world.
I mean it's a cliche, but manyof my school friends who've gone
out into the real world, whowere gifted, realized that
somewhere along the line adiagnosis was missed and it
probably is adhd yeah, I wasgonna mention that I've I've not
been diagnosed because I'm on avery long waiting list, but
(19:47):
like we all know, we all know um.
Do you have any particularpassions or focuses at the
moment that you're going all inon?
Kate Gray (19:55):
I mean I really like my job.
I'm lucky that I'm I'm doingcontract work, so I'm working
three different jobs right now.
Uh, so my time is sorry.
Three different jobs, yeah, butthey're all part-time.
Uh, I write for three differentgames that they each take up
about 10 hours a week.
Uh, so it works out at a prettychill week actually, um, a lot
(20:19):
of that is meetings anyway, orlike playing the game that I'm
writing just to check things andeverything like that.
Um, and I get all my work done,which maybe looks like
discipline.
I forgot what the question was.
What do I like to do?
Okay, um, uh, passions.
I've been doing a lot of gameplaying.
Sometimes it's bad if yourhobby is the same as your job,
(20:43):
but I play very different gamesto the ones I write, so it kind
of works out okay.
And what else have I been doing?
I mean, I like to sew, but Ihaven't sat at the sewing
machine in like three months.
I'm making a quilt.
I've been making a quilt forlike three years.
It'll never be finished.
And I've also been trying toget back into art.
(21:06):
I'm not an artist but I do liketo draw and for the game, me
and my partner are extremelyslowly making.
I've been trying to do thecharacter art and I feel like
there's a bunch of things aboutcharacter art that I just don't
know.
Like, oh, you're supposed touse a color palette, you're
supposed to keep it this manypixels?
I don't know any of that.
(21:28):
Keep it this many pixels.
I don't know any of that andI'm trying to let myself not
have to just sort of drawsomething that I think is cute
and that's been surprisingly funand freeing, I guess.
Finbarre Snarey (21:38):
I find it interesting that you say that
you're not an artist and yetyou've just led me through this,
this thinking that you havethis time, that you spend the
kind of aspirations that yeah, Imean, this sounds pretty much
like an artist at work no one'spaid me for it.
Kate Gray (21:52):
No, that's, I have been paid for my art before, but
I think you've been paid aswell.
Yes, I don't know what is anartist nobody knows.
It's you that?
That's what it is.
Fine, I'll take it right.
Finbarre Snarey (22:07):
So what are you doing for the rest of your day?
Kate Gray (22:09):
uh well, I'm going to Japan on monday, so I'm going
to be packing going to Japan.
Finbarre Snarey (22:14):
Whereabouts?
Kate Gray (22:16):
All over.
Well, not like actually allover.
We're going to tokyo, kyoto,osaka, nara, hakone and another
place I can never remember thename of.
It's just like a small town.
I think we're doing like onsensand looking at mountains
kinosaki, that's it, kinosaki.
Finbarre Snarey (22:32):
I don't know anything about it I, I know even
less than you do, but there'sum, there's a few um, islands,
uh, off Japan, these kind ofthese, um sort of primeval
forests that you get yeah, yeahand I would love, love to go
walking through those.
I mean, obviously in autumnthat would be nice, but at any
point, because they're just.
Everything is just encased inmoss and it looks like something
(22:53):
from another world.
I would love to go.
Kate Gray (22:55):
Oh, my partner loves moss Big moss fan.
I'm also a fan of moss, so like, and old forests.
You know I grew up in sort ofnear the Peak District, lots of
forests.
Finbarre Snarey (23:09):
Sorry, the Peak District In.
Kate Gray (23:11):
England.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm British.
I don't know if I said that.
Finbarre Snarey (23:15):
You didn't and you don't still sound it.
You don't sound like you'refrom Derbyshire.
Put it that way.
Kate Gray (23:20):
No, Well, I'm from Leicestershire.
That'd be why I don't have aregional accent at all, and also
being in Canada for seven yearshas softened it even more.
So people are usually likeyou're from somewhere, but I
don't know where it is.
And I'm like Leicester, Like Idon't know what that is either.
Finbarre Snarey (23:40):
We've got dead kings in car parks.
Kate Gray (23:43):
That is like, yeah, that's the only thing we have is
one guy died once and it wasfine, I guess.
Yeah, it's not a veryinteresting part of the country
turns out.
Finbarre Snarey (23:55):
Yeah, I must say I've driven through it many
times.
I've never really stopped.
Kate Gray (24:04):
The next time I'll look out the window and think
Kate's from here.
Yeah, my hometown made Bell'sbells whiskey.
No, like big bells that go bong.
Oh okay, yeah, there was like abell foundry.
I think there still is a bellfoundry.
Um, there can't be a lot ofwork in that, but it still
(24:26):
exists I mean it's funny.
Finbarre Snarey (24:27):
You should say that there's.
There's a town not too far awayfrom here called Hina, where
I've just discovered justyesterday, they create 98% of
the country's Christmas puddings.
They all come from this oneplace.
It's one of those things youdon't stop and think where do
bells come from?
They go from near your oldplace.
Kate Gray (24:48):
Yeah, and you can't just start up a bell foundry now
like you have to have a bunchof molds, steel, I don't know I
don't know, maybe thecraftspeople as well, you know
yeah, yeah, it's probably reallydifficult to get into.
And, uh, lady jane gray camefrom the place I I grew up in as
well.
She was one of the queens.
Okay, for nine days she was Imean she sounds like she's from
(25:09):
the x-men academy, but she doesyeah, and she didn't have any
cool powers, hence why she onlywas queen for nine days and then
got her head cut off.
Finbarre Snarey (25:16):
So oh, um on that subject.
But before you go um, out ofall of the x-men, whose powers
did you want the most?
Kate Gray (25:25):
Oh, some of them don't seem good yeah right, like
laser eyes.
Not that useful um touchingpeople, killing them, not that
useful, uh I don't know.
It depends on the person yeah,but you can't touch anyone um
you could boop someone on thenose.
Finbarre Snarey (25:45):
It'd be death boop, wouldn't it?
I I mean.
Kate Gray (25:49):
I could.
I mean, is it cheating to saythat I wanted the white stripe
that Rogue has in her hair?
Does that count as a power?
Finbarre Snarey (25:55):
It counts as a power because it does look
formidable.
Kate Gray (25:58):
Yeah, okay, that's my answer.
Excellent Cool hair.
Finbarre Snarey (26:03):
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Kate Gray (26:05):
Thank you.
This is really fun.
I can't believe I got allpentacles.
Hopefully that means I'm goingto be rich this year.
I don't know.
Finbarre Snarey (26:14):
As we turn the final card on today's
conversation with Kate Gray,we're left with a deeper
appreciation for the way storiesshape our lives, whether in
games, writing or even tarotitself.
The cards invite us to explorepossibilities, embrace intuition
and uncover meaning inunexpected places.
If Kate's insights resonatedwith you, be sure to follow her
(26:35):
work link in the show notes andsee where her storytelling magic
leads next.
Until then, we'll meet in thenext episode of Tarot Interviews
.
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