April 14, 2025 • 29 mins
Professor Carrie Jenkins is a philosopher and poet whose work explores the nature of love, identity, and the complexities of the self. She is the author of What Love Is: And What It Could Be and Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning, which challenge traditional ideas of romantic relationships through both philosophical inquiry and personal experience. Her recent book Nonmonogamy and Happiness: A More Than Two Essentials Guide asks how often we hear a non-monogamous love story with a happy ending?
Carrie is a professor at the University of British Columbia, where she teaches philosophy and writes about metaphysics, epistemology, and the philosophy of literature.
Learn more at her official website: carriejenkins.net
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Finbarre Snarey (00:38):
Tarot Interviews.
Carrie is a philosopher, authorand poet whose work explores
the nature of love,relationships and what it means
to be human.
She holds a PhD in philosophyfrom Trinity College, Cambridge,
and is currently a professor ofphilosophy at the University of
British Columbia.
She's the author of what LoveIs and what it Could Be, and Sad
Love, where she challengesconventional ideas about romance
(01:00):
and happiness.
Beyond philosophy, carrie'spoetry explores emotional
landscapes.
Today, we'll let the tarot leadus through a conversation about
love, creativity and the unseenconnections that shape our
lives.
Let's shuffle the deck andbegin.
Hello, my lovely, can you hearme okay?
Is it working?
Yeah, it's working.
There we go.
It's Professor Jenkins.
Carrie Jenkins (01:22):
How are you?
Oh, my God.
Finbarre Snarey (01:24):
I'm very, very well.
I am here shuffling your cards.
What kind of a day are youhaving today?
Carrie Jenkins (01:28):
A day.
Well, I woke up and read thenews and that was a big mistake.
So, being in Canada, you knowwe're kind of just we're very
close to the hub of a lot of thenews and not the good stuff and
not not the good stuff and itkind of felt some someone I saw
compare it to, uh, like you livein the apartment upstairs from
(01:50):
a meth lab, which is which iskind of how we all feel right
now I'm a bit terrified.
Finbarre Snarey (01:52):
Let's uh, let's try and distract ourselves a
little.
I'm currently shuffling myusual rider weight deck and uh,
okay, right, so I'm going tosplit the deck there, put that
to one side, so there's nochicanery or nonsense, and I'm
going to keep shuffling away Iwas looking forward to the
chicanery and nonsense that'sthe lovers the lovers.
(02:18):
Okay, so, from yourunderstanding of the tarot, from
your own experiences andlooking at the card that you can
see on the camera there, whatdo you see?
Carrie Jenkins (02:28):
So the first thing that I tend to think of
these days when I draw thelovers is its visual parallelism
with the devil card.
Finbarre Snarey (02:40):
I have never noticed that, but absolutely.
Carrie Jenkins (02:44):
Yeah, if you put them side by side, both of
these cards have two nakedfigures down in front and they
have a kind of big loomingsupernatural figure behind the
two.
And then on the lover's cardthere's an angel with wings.
On the devil card it's a devilwith horns, but the shapes are
actually really very similar.
(03:06):
That that kind of um, I guessit's a kind of like a duality,
that that between them they theycover what are you typically
viewed as very positive and verynegative things, while being
each other's kind of flip side Iwas going to say.
Finbarre Snarey (03:19):
I mean, a good night out would hopefully
involve both cards.
Carrie Jenkins (03:22):
Yes, ideally.
Finbarre Snarey (03:25):
I mean, my understanding is that it's
authentic desires of love forlife's broader choices,
decisions made from the soul,that type of thing.
But I'm going to have to sitdown after this interview and
put both of those cards next toeach other, because that's
(03:45):
something that I rarely do.
Carrie Jenkins (03:46):
I tend to either look at them in threes or as a
spread, but not one next toanother.
I do like not two.
Yeah, it can.
It can be useful.
I've been doing pulls of twoquite a bit lately.
Actually, my pull for thismorning was also a two and I I I
don't know why, but that thepairings.
I'm a gemini, so maybe it'sjust that I'm like twins and and
the lovers is a card quiteoften associated with Gemini
itself, just because it's thetwo figures on the card.
Finbarre Snarey (04:09):
My question, based on the lovers, is how has
your exploration of love'snature influenced your personal
relationships?
Carrie Jenkins (04:17):
What a good question.
All right, here's the thingI've been thinking about a lot
lately the interconnectedness ofthings, the kind of
inseparability of things that wetrained and taught to separate,
and so one of those is personallife and professional life, or
working life, work life.
People talk about work-lifebalance.
You know this idea that you'vegot to trade off one against the
(04:40):
other, but there's another kindof way of looking at a person
and the things that they dowhich is more holistic, and
that's it's true in spades.
For my, my work on love, um, andI kind of had to acknowledge
this like right from the start,going into it, I I'm going to be
writing from my own personalexperience.
I'm not going to be doing thisin a kind of abstract way, and I
(05:01):
don't.
I actually was trying to makethe point that nobody's doing
this in an abstract way with nopurpose.
Everyone's got baggage, and assoon as you start thinking and
writing, talking about somethinglike love, your baggage is
there, whether you want it ornot, whether you're
acknowledging it or not.
So the two things have justalways been like 100%
intertwined, inextricablyintertwined.
The only kind of littleexception to that is, you know,
(05:24):
I talk in my books about livingin polyamorous relationships,
for example, and I talk aboutwhat that means in terms of you
know my understanding of loveand the baggage I bring to the
table.
You look like you wanted to askme something else there.
Finbarre Snarey (05:38):
I was yeah.
Which book does that feature in?
Carrie Jenkins (05:40):
Both what Love Is and what it Could Be and Bad
love.
Talk about it a little bit.
And then my latest, uh,non-fiction, which is a little
book called non-monogamy andhappiness.
Um, obviously it's, uh, it'stalking about those issues as
well.
So I talk about that in my workbecause I'm kind of interested
in, conceptually, what are theassumptions we make about the
(06:02):
nature of love having to bemonogamous.
For example, if it's romanticlove, that you know, in doing
things like interviews or publictalks or what have you about my
work, people would start askingabout my private life.
So the one little piece ofseparation that I did try to
pull down was like there's partsof my private life that stay
private and they don't show upin the work and they don't show
(06:23):
up in interviews, despite somejournalists actually being
really, really persistent aboutcertain kinds of very personal
questions.
Um, I, I just have to be likeno, there are actually some
things that I I am not going totalk to you about because
they're not related to the workand you don't need to know them.
That said, even things that Itypically think of as being
private, really private, theyinfluence how I think, they
(06:45):
affect how I, how I think aboutlove and how I think about
everything.
Really, yeah, the reverse istrue as well.
So when I've written something,I don't have a very good memory.
Actually, I've always had avery, very bad memory.
So sometimes I've, actuallyI've forgotten pieces of my own
thought process.
And I go back and read one ofmy books, like like, what love
is is now kind of getting on for10 years old and I was working
(07:06):
on it like longer ago than that.
So I go back and read some ofit and I'm like, oh yeah, that's
what I, that's what I think.
And then it turns out that thatpiece of of I don't know, that
piece of conceptual technologyis what I needed to solve a
problem in one of my ownrelationships or one of my own
kind of friendships or familyconnections or whatever it might
be.
So yeah, sometimes thatinterconnectedness works out
(07:28):
really well.
Other times it can be somethinga little bit tricky to navigate
.
Finbarre Snarey (07:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for guiding us through
that, and it's funny.
You should mention the bookwhat Love Is.
I saw it in a local bookshopnot a few weeks ago and had to
pick up a copy, so it's sat onmy to-read pile.
Carrie Jenkins (07:46):
Back at my old hometown and all fantastic card
number two are you ready?
I see a hand grasping a bigstick with leaves, hands coming
out of a cloud.
Finbarre Snarey (08:02):
Okay, I don't know quite how defined a webcam
is, but that, of course, is theAce of Wands.
Is it one that you've comeacross before?
Carrie Jenkins (08:10):
No, yeah, yeah, I've gotten to know my deck
pretty well now.
I read for myself most mostdays and, and more than once if
I have questions, I tend to havethis sort of a bit of running
dialogue with my tarot cardsthroughout the day wow, do you
have like um, I don't know likea, like a pouch or a bag that
(08:31):
you keep them in?
Finbarre Snarey (08:32):
so you've got them like near that.
Carrie Jenkins (08:33):
Oh, there we are I do, yeah, I got.
I actually got this at a localwitch's market in vancouver.
It's a nice little silk on thesatin on the inside and um
purple spiderweb design on theoutside that is gorgeous yeah,
quite cool hey, and it just, itfolds over astral alchemy.
Finbarre Snarey (08:52):
That's the maker wow, okay, right, well,
ace of wands.
So it's a card of creativeenergy, a spark of inspiration
symbolizes raw potential andpassion and enthusiasm.
It's a very positive card tobegin with that, and the lovers
as well.
We keep our fingers crossed fora good third card as well.
Um, so yeah.
So it's a card of embracingyour inner drive and instincts.
(09:15):
So let me think of a questionto ask you what are you drinking
over there?
It's a card of embracing yourinner drive and instincts, so
let me think of a question toask you what are you drinking
over there?
Carrie Jenkins (09:20):
it's a lot later in the day for you than it is
for me oh, this is cold, hardwater, right?
Finbarre Snarey (09:28):
so what sparked your passion for philosophy?
Carrie Jenkins (09:33):
oh boy, my relationship with philosophy is
so complicated now, um, thatthat's a.
That's a really tricky questionbecause it kind of depends what
you mean, what you mean byphilosophy, like back in the day
when I was, um, let's say whenI, what is?
I know, right, I, literally I.
(09:53):
So one of books.
The first line is tell aphilosopher you love her and you
better be ready to define yourterms.
And then again the next line isit's funny because it's true it
is.
We can't switch it off Likeanything.
Love philosophy, any word atall.
But with this one, I mean partof the thing is are we talking
about philosophy like theacademic discipline, the
(10:16):
university subject or theactivity that pretty much
everyone does, like little kidsaround about the age of 18?
Um, because I started readingsome, I got turned on to it by
(10:39):
things like Descartes andBertrand Russell and and some
really, like you know, classicfigures of western philosophy.
I was gonna maybe Sophie'schoice, but yeah, I read that
and I loved it and so I was like, yeah, this is fantastic, you
can think about whatever youwant and like, have a great time
.
I want to do that for my job.
So I was like, yeah, this isfantastic, you can think about
whatever you want and have agreat time.
I want to do that for my job.
(10:59):
So I went to study it and I waslucky enough to get a job
teaching philosophy.
In fact I moved around a lotfor different jobs teaching and
researching philosophy.
But then, you know, over timethe kind of the rose-tinted bets
came off and I realizedactually the formalized concept
of philosophy has some problemsthe way people think about it.
(11:23):
It can be quite narrow,constrained to that particular
tradition of Western analyticthought, not very inclusive of
anything or anyone else andother ways of approaching life
and philosophy, uh, in thebroader sense of just, you know,
thinking hard about stuff.
(11:44):
So, yeah, I I kind of um, theshort answer to like what first
stopped sparked me was this Iit's kind of pure intellectual
love for the kind of questionsand the kind of things, kind of
ways of discussing them, theopen-endedness of it, the fact
that you could seemingly thinkabout anything in these ways and
not be told that it'sirrelevant or stupid.
And yeah, I loved all of that.
(12:06):
Eventually, you know, havinggotten a little bit
disillusioned with the academicdiscipline, was what led me to
start.
I actually went back to schooland I got a Master of Fine Arts
in Creative Writing to kind ofbroaden my horizons a little bit
.
That's why I started writingthe poetry and the fiction as
the way of kind of doing some ofthe work that, as I see it, the
(12:26):
academic discipline doesn'tquite make room for, but other
kinds of writing do.
That's a long, rambly answer toyour question, but it's
complicated.
These things are complicated.
Finbarre Snarey (12:38):
I think my follow-on question would be out
of all of the famousphilosophers that I would have
heard, of which one was yourfirst love?
Carrie Jenkins (12:46):
Bertrand Russell .
Have you heard of BertrandRussell, or do I need to go more
into the greatest hits, guys?
Finbarre Snarey (12:53):
I have, but some people who are listening to
this may not have done so.
Can you uh refresh my memoryabout why?
Carrie Jenkins (12:58):
yeah, and he's, he's not still someone I would
place in the beloved philosophercategory, to be clear.
Uh, he's, he's one of thoseproblematic faves, you know
where.
Sure, they did a lot of reallyinteresting philosophy of
mathematics and and their, theirtheories of logic uh, very cool
, very interesting.
And then mathematics and andtheir, their theories of logic
uh, very cool, very interesting.
(13:18):
And then they go and writebooks about eugenics and stuff
like that and it's like ouch um,so you know again, like
complicated, complicated person,um, but he was, he was at, uh,
trinity college in in cambridgeas a, as a young, and then he
kind of eventually he fellcompletely out of favor with
(13:40):
Cambridge because he was apacifist during the war.
This is early 20th century.
This is when he's around thereand he ends up working in the US
and they don't like him overthere either because he's
arguing for things like freelove and sex outside of marriage
and non-monogamousrelationships, which was unusual
at that time.
Goodness, yeah, fascinating guy.
(14:02):
Fascinating guy.
But also, I mean, none of thatwas what I was reading.
I was just reading hisphilosophy of mind and his
philosophy of mathematics, whichwere things I was super into
Early on.
I got really interested inmathematics.
Just like think about like what, what are numbers?
How do they work?
How do we know about two plustwo equals four?
How do you know that like thatto me is like super fascinating
(14:22):
question.
He had lots to say about stufflike that.
So I'm like this is, this isvery cool.
And then, many years later, Iwas like yeah, and you said this
other very cool stuff and thiscompletely shocking and horrific
stuff and oh, my goodness.
So yeah, that's BertrandRussell for you.
Thank you so much.
Also a member of the Britisharistocracy.
Finbarre Snarey (14:41):
Oh, really, mm-hmm.
Oh, I did not know.
I'm going to have to look himup and a bit of a public
intellectual before it was cool.
Was it ever cool.
Carrie Jenkins (15:02):
No, it's never been cool, let's face it, it's
not.
It wasn't.
But uh, yeah, he was one of theone of the earliest people to
be quite interested in actuallywriting his, his philosophical
stuff out into the world.
And he was an activist too,anti-nuclear, pro um, early
advocate of gay rights for menin the uk, or at least
decriminalization, which waswhere where that discussion was
at at the time okay, I mean fromyour super interesting guy,
(15:25):
from your warm and glowingdescription, it sounds like that
maybe the good outweighed thebad.
Finbarre Snarey (15:29):
But I'll need to look into more about some of
this politics it's very hard toweigh these things.
Carrie Jenkins (15:35):
You know, it's sort of like it's everything all
at once.
There's some very cool stuffand some very, very bad stuff.
Very hard to weigh them againsteach other.
I don't remember exactly thesource for this.
I might need to check it, buthe was involved in the creation
of the CND logo that became apeace sign.
He was involved in these earlyuh campaigns for nuclear disarm,
(15:57):
disarmament that um uh createdthat that logo.
Finbarre Snarey (16:01):
It became, you know, kind of internationally
recognized symbol of peace well,I would have recognized at aged
eight I think I was eight orseven.
I was on the greenham commonmarches with my mum oh yeah, and
it was.
I was there standing outsidethe barbed wire with a pink
balloon that said gaze againstthe bomb.
Carrie Jenkins (16:24):
Okay card number three you got, you got started
early right, I have a pile ofcards.
Finbarre Snarey (16:32):
we have two down down, one to go and I would
cross my fingers for anothergood card, but I would drop them
.
Carrie Jenkins (16:40):
All the cards are good and bad, all of them,
just like all of the people.
There is no.
I've really gotten, I've reallystarted to get into feeling
this more and more over time.
But there aren't good cards.
I don't think the Lovers isnecessarily a good card, for
example, like if you noticethere's, uh, there's chains in
(17:01):
that card, uh, and I, I thinkpeople have a natural tendency
to think of it as uh, something,something they want to see when
they're, when they're doingreadings.
But, um, in, in a lot of ways Iit can be, it can be pretty
scary too.
Sorry, not chain a snake, um,the chains are in the in the
devil card.
So so the, the, the parallelismof the of the devil card and
(17:24):
the and the lover card is thatthere's chains in the devil and
the snake in the lover, um, inthe lovers, and the snake is
kind of twining around the, anapple tree behind the, the, uh,
the, the woman figure, womanfigure in the card and sort of
whispering in her ear.
It's all very biblical.
There's always trouble inparadise, is what I'm saying.
Finbarre Snarey (17:45):
It's funny you're talking about the
possibility of the lovers beinga card of misfortune, because my
children are really into theGreek myths myths.
One of the story, one of thestories they're really enjoying
at the moment, is the judgmentof paris.
So the idea of turning downathene, turning down hera and
then choosing aphrodite, becausewhat could go wrong?
Carrie Jenkins (18:05):
right what could go wrong?
Finbarre Snarey (18:08):
spells an epic disaster and it's always apples.
Carrie Jenkins (18:12):
For some reason people, people like it doesn't
break a good apple, does it.
Finbarre Snarey (18:19):
Do you know what I hate?
Apples.
Carrie Jenkins (18:21):
It's the one thing I can't stand.
But yeah, they're always kindof a fruit.
I guess they're always bound upwith discord and disquiet, even
in what look like heavenlyenvironments, but yeah, the
lovers.
Coming back to the interactionof my work and the other things,
(18:43):
I think my work on love isquite critical, especially of
romance, the idea of romance asa kind of a myth or a narrative
that we live by.
I think it's responsible for alot of BS and causes a lot of
damage to a lot of a myth or anarrative that we live by.
I think it's really it'sresponsible for a lot of BS and
causes a lot of damage to a lotof folks.
And if we have better ways ofunderstanding love that maybe
(19:03):
didn't look as much like whatwe're seeing on the lover's card
but had more flexibility interms of like, well, what could
love look like?
Does it have to be a naked manand a naked woman doing
something sinful with an apple?
No, not really.
There are actually a lot ofother pictures of love.
So it's not love per se that Ithink is to blame, but certain
(19:25):
ways of imagining it and kindsof limitations maybe that we
artificially place on love.
I think that's a problem.
Finbarre Snarey (19:34):
I think you're absolutely right.
I think the figures thereshould be more formless in a way
.
And, as you say, why are therejust two?
Carrie Jenkins (19:42):
Why are there two?
Why is there a male and femalefigure?
Finbarre Snarey (19:47):
What are we?
Carrie Jenkins (19:47):
doing with our myths.
Finbarre Snarey (19:49):
Time to pick one.
Carrie Jenkins (19:51):
All right, let's do it.
Finbarre Snarey (19:52):
Let's do the last one.
Let me know when you're ready.
What do you see?
Carrie Jenkins (20:02):
Well, I don't have like good and bad cards,
but I definitely have favourites, and this is one of my
favourites.
This is the Queen of Wands.
I love her.
I see a lady on a throne inyellow robes with a sunflower
and a black cat, and everythingabout that is awesome and what
she meant to you in the past oh,I mean the kind of thing, the
(20:25):
kind of thing I associate withher are, you know, we're talking
about that creative energy inthe ace of wands card, that
spark of passion, um, I thinkyou know, in the ace of the suit
of wands that that energy isobviously in a beginner form.
It's, it's ready to go and it'sjust, like you know, getting
getting things moving.
It's very motivated, very, verypowerful.
(20:46):
But the queen of wands is, um,she sort of represents, I guess
in some way, the later stage ofthat process.
It's more in control, more incommand.
She's, uh, she's already grownher sunflower and she's very
happy with it and like, here itis, and she's, she's got this
black cat which you know, uh, alot of context would be regarded
(21:08):
as unlucky, or you knowsomething that, uh, that people
are scared of, uh, but she is,it looks like that's her pet cat
, right, or or maybe just a cat,her familiar, right, and this
is the cat who hangs out withher, that she's friends with,
and so she's kind of defiant ofother people's stupid ideas
about what is and isn't a goodkind of cat to have around, and
(21:32):
she's, she's, she's moisturizedand and in her lane and she's
like, you know all of that goodstuff.
So that's that's what I see umpart of why I see part of why
she's one of my favorite cardsand someone who embraces their
inner fire.
Finbarre Snarey (21:45):
Can I ask do you have a cat at the moment?
Carrie Jenkins (21:48):
I do um.
In fact, I have a black cat.
Um, she's also a hairless blackcat, she's a she's a sphinx cat
, so yeah, well moistur.
I have a black dog and alsothat's need to be moisturised,
because you know that hairlesscats.
Actually you have to give thema regular bath, which mine hates
, but it's good for her skin andshe does get a little bit of
(22:10):
dry skin now and again, so youhave to pop the oil.
Finbarre Snarey (22:13):
She still kind of licks herself clean and
things yeah she does, sheherself clean and things.
Carrie Jenkins (22:16):
Yeah, she does, she licks herself and and cleans
herself.
It's just that the the oilbuilds up and then, you know, a
hairy cat hair would sort ofcarry the oil away from the skin
, but she doesn't have any hair,so it just kind of sort of sits
there a little bit and so, yeah, bath bath once every week or
so and a little bit of olive oilif she gets patch of dry skin.
Okay, but she helps me with mytarot readings in exchange.
Finbarre Snarey (22:42):
She sounds like a very good familiar.
I do have.
I've got two.
Carrie Jenkins (22:45):
Her name's Drusilla.
Finbarre Snarey (22:46):
Oh, Drusilla yeah From Buffy.
Carrie Jenkins (22:50):
After yes, yeah, after the vampire in Buffy the
Vampire Slayer, because sheactually looks pretty similar
with the kind of wrinklyforehead.
Finbarre Snarey (23:00):
And the same peculiar accent.
Yeah.
Carrie Jenkins (23:02):
Obviously yeah, and she's obviously a spacey
witch cat, so it's just aperfect name.
Finbarre Snarey (23:10):
You won't be able to see either of my two
because I've got my gingernonsense sleeping on the bed
here who hasn't moved all day.
I've got one of these umstand-up desks and you press a
button and it raises and lowers.
Oh yeah, he was snoozing onthat and I pressed the button,
it moved.
Carrie Jenkins (23:26):
He just did not care why would he, as long as
the bed is still there?
Finbarre Snarey (23:33):
of course.
And my tabby just over hereagain.
I mean she's a very sweet,lovely little creature, but, of
course, and my tabby just overhere again, I mean she's a very
sweet, lovely little creature,but they could snooze as an
Olympic sport, these two, right?
My question for you is how doyou feel that you've inspired
and led people in your field?
Carrie Jenkins (23:57):
Right, this might be aspirational because I
don't know that I've done any ofthat kind of thing, but what
I'm trying to do, what I'd loveto do, it has to do with an idea
about sort of creating andcrafting the work which I feel
like should have a capital W,like I'm an alchemist or
something, the work that I do inways that are not dictated by,
(24:18):
like, my job contract or or amanager or something like that,
right, so?
So I'm paid by a universitywhich, uh, which is, uh, you
know, an institution actually,but the one I work for now it's
very, very big university, biginstitution, run by the
government, british Columbia,well, and funded by the
government of British Columbia.
Well, I'm funded by thegovernment of British Columbia,
(24:39):
and so, you know, it has all thekinds of suite of disadvantages
and advantages that you getalong with that.
You know, in many ways thegoals of the institution are not
well aligned with my own, andso what the institution views as
my job obviously that's thekind of thing I have to do to
get a paycheck Now, does thatmean I have no leeway to kind of
(25:00):
craft and make it work for me,make it cohere with the rest of
my life and the things that areactually meaningful and valuable
to me.
No, I can do that, and so partof what I would love to be able
to do is be part of redefiningor reshaping what an academic
life can be Like.
What can a scholarly life looklike?
(25:22):
Because the kind of model forit that I've inherited I suppose
is the right word inherited, orbeen handed is one where you're
working mostly for otherscholars and writing articles
that then get hidden behindpaywalls and are anyway written
in very inaccessible languageand that concern things that
(25:44):
only a few people in the worldare interested in.
Now I do do that like, and Iactually do think some of that's
valuable activity.
I don't like the paywall part.
I wish that would.
Just people would just get overit and publish things.
Open access that's a wholeseparate rant we could get into.
I think there is somethingreally valuable about doing
these kind of technicalinvestigations of things that
aren't very interesting to manypeople and using the conceptual
(26:06):
vocabulary that goes along withall of that.
It's just.
I don't think that's the onlything that scholarly life can
look like.
So you know, I wanted to be awriter as well.
I want to write fiction andpoetry as well.
I want that to be a writer aswell, I want to write fiction,
poetry as well.
I want that to be understood tobe part of what scholarly life
can look like.
I want reading tarot to be partof what scholarly life can look
(26:26):
like.
I'm not the only one who doesthis.
There's, there's a few, there'squite a few of us, and so I'm
kind of, if there's, if there'sa kind of thing that I would
love for to be able to kind ofmake more possible for other
people later by doing it now,it's that it's being able to
make this kind of job, this kindof life, into something that
coheres with what I think willactually best use my skills and
(26:48):
abilities, um, in ways that Ithink are meaningful and
valuable.
Um, and for me, that that doesinvolve more things than I was
trained to do and more thingsthat are in my job contract, and
I want to make it more okay tohave that kind of approach to
really any kind of job and anykind of role in life.
(27:09):
So this is really very much ofa piece with some of my
arguments about love andrelationships, which are just.
You know, we should be able tocraft these things to fit the
shapes we need and we want, andso you know people who want to
live in non-monogamousrelationships.
You know that's part of what Icall love crafting, which has
(27:31):
nothing to do with Cthulhu butis more like job crafting, which
is a concept that actuallycomes out of business and
management studies of all places.
But this idea that I'm talkingabout, where you can kind of
make the job more of a fit withyour own values and skills and
interests, that's been describedas job crafting and I've tried
(27:52):
to argue yeah, we should be jobcrafting, we should also be love
crafting and we should be lifecrafting and not kind of fitting
ourselves to predefined scriptsor our ideas that are handed to
us and that may actually bevery, very harmful and limited,
in the same way that that kindof picture of what love can be
on the lover's card is limitedand harmful if we think it's the
(28:16):
only picture.
That felt like quite a ramble,but there we go.
That's that's why that's that'sone thing I would love to be
able to to do.
I do so.
This happened yesterday, whichreminded me I.
Sometimes people write to meand they say look, I really
liked your book for some reasonand and a lot yesterday, cause
I'm I've been having a bit of arough, rough ride the last
(28:37):
couple of weeks I read that andI was like oh, that's so lovely.
And I just started crying,because it is nice to be
reminded that there are peopleout there and something you've
done or something you've writtenhas helped them or moved them
in some way.
But I mean, obviously that's abig part of it too, that feeling
that the actual products of mywork and my writing are helping
(28:58):
someone, you know, someonesomewhere.
If I'm able to do that, then itfeels like it's worth it.
Finbarre Snarey (29:05):
A huge thank you to Carrie Jenkins for
sharing her wisdom and insightswith us.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to follow the podcast and
leave a review, because itreally helps.
You can also connect withCarrie and explore her work
through the links in the shownotes.
And until next time, keepexploring, stay curious and let
the cards reveal their magic.
Tarot Interviews.
Carrie is a philosopher, authorand poet whose work explores
the nature of love,relationships and what it means
to be human.
She holds a PhD in philosophyfrom Trinity College, Cambridge,
and is currently a professor ofphilosophy at the University of
British Columbia.
She's the author of what LoveIs and what it Could Be, and Sad
Love, where she challengesconventional ideas about romance
(01:00):
and happiness.
Beyond philosophy, carrie'spoetry explores emotional
landscapes.
Today, we'll let the tarot leadus through a conversation about
love, creativity and the unseenconnections that shape our
lives.
Let's shuffle the deck andbegin.
Hello, my lovely, can you hearme okay?
Is it working?
Yeah, it's working.
There we go.
It's Professor Jenkins.
Carrie Jenkins (01:22):
How are you?
Oh, my God.
Finbarre Snarey (01:24):
I'm very, very well.
I am here shuffling your cards.
What kind of a day are youhaving today?
Carrie Jenkins (01:28):
A day.
Well, I woke up and read thenews and that was a big mistake.
So, being in Canada, you knowwe're kind of just we're very
close to the hub of a lot of thenews and not the good stuff and
not not the good stuff and itkind of felt some someone I saw
compare it to, uh, like you livein the apartment upstairs from
(01:50):
a meth lab, which is which iskind of how we all feel right
now I'm a bit terrified.
Finbarre Snarey (01:52):
Let's uh, let's try and distract ourselves a
little.
I'm currently shuffling myusual rider weight deck and uh,
okay, right, so I'm going tosplit the deck there, put that
to one side, so there's nochicanery or nonsense, and I'm
going to keep shuffling away Iwas looking forward to the
chicanery and nonsense that'sthe lovers the lovers.
(02:18):
Okay, so, from yourunderstanding of the tarot, from
your own experiences andlooking at the card that you can
see on the camera there, whatdo you see?
Carrie Jenkins (02:28):
So the first thing that I tend to think of
these days when I draw thelovers is its visual parallelism
with the devil card.
Finbarre Snarey (02:40):
I have never noticed that, but absolutely.
Carrie Jenkins (02:44):
Yeah, if you put them side by side, both of
these cards have two nakedfigures down in front and they
have a kind of big loomingsupernatural figure behind the
two.
And then on the lover's cardthere's an angel with wings.
On the devil card it's a devilwith horns, but the shapes are
actually really very similar.
(03:06):
That that kind of um, I guessit's a kind of like a duality,
that that between them they theycover what are you typically
viewed as very positive and verynegative things, while being
each other's kind of flip side Iwas going to say.
Finbarre Snarey (03:19):
I mean, a good night out would hopefully
involve both cards.
Carrie Jenkins (03:22):
Yes, ideally.
Finbarre Snarey (03:25):
I mean, my understanding is that it's
authentic desires of love forlife's broader choices,
decisions made from the soul,that type of thing.
But I'm going to have to sitdown after this interview and
put both of those cards next toeach other, because that's
(03:45):
something that I rarely do.
Carrie Jenkins (03:46):
I tend to either look at them in threes or as a
spread, but not one next toanother.
I do like not two.
Yeah, it can.
It can be useful.
I've been doing pulls of twoquite a bit lately.
Actually, my pull for thismorning was also a two and I I I
don't know why, but that thepairings.
I'm a gemini, so maybe it'sjust that I'm like twins and and
the lovers is a card quiteoften associated with Gemini
itself, just because it's thetwo figures on the card.
Finbarre Snarey (04:09):
My question, based on the lovers, is how has
your exploration of love'snature influenced your personal
relationships?
Carrie Jenkins (04:17):
What a good question.
All right, here's the thingI've been thinking about a lot
lately the interconnectedness ofthings, the kind of
inseparability of things that wetrained and taught to separate,
and so one of those is personallife and professional life, or
working life, work life.
People talk about work-lifebalance.
You know this idea that you'vegot to trade off one against the
(04:40):
other, but there's another kindof way of looking at a person
and the things that they dowhich is more holistic, and
that's it's true in spades.
For my, my work on love, um, andI kind of had to acknowledge
this like right from the start,going into it, I I'm going to be
writing from my own personalexperience.
I'm not going to be doing thisin a kind of abstract way, and I
(05:01):
don't.
I actually was trying to makethe point that nobody's doing
this in an abstract way with nopurpose.
Everyone's got baggage, and assoon as you start thinking and
writing, talking about somethinglike love, your baggage is
there, whether you want it ornot, whether you're
acknowledging it or not.
So the two things have justalways been like 100%
intertwined, inextricablyintertwined.
The only kind of littleexception to that is, you know,
(05:24):
I talk in my books about livingin polyamorous relationships,
for example, and I talk aboutwhat that means in terms of you
know my understanding of loveand the baggage I bring to the
table.
You look like you wanted to askme something else there.
Finbarre Snarey (05:38):
I was yeah.
Which book does that feature in?
Carrie Jenkins (05:40):
Both what Love Is and what it Could Be and Bad
love.
Talk about it a little bit.
And then my latest, uh,non-fiction, which is a little
book called non-monogamy andhappiness.
Um, obviously it's, uh, it'stalking about those issues as
well.
So I talk about that in my workbecause I'm kind of interested
in, conceptually, what are theassumptions we make about the
(06:02):
nature of love having to bemonogamous.
For example, if it's romanticlove, that you know, in doing
things like interviews or publictalks or what have you about my
work, people would start askingabout my private life.
So the one little piece ofseparation that I did try to
pull down was like there's partsof my private life that stay
private and they don't show upin the work and they don't show
(06:23):
up in interviews, despite somejournalists actually being
really, really persistent aboutcertain kinds of very personal
questions.
Um, I, I just have to be likeno, there are actually some
things that I I am not going totalk to you about because
they're not related to the workand you don't need to know them.
That said, even things that Itypically think of as being
private, really private, theyinfluence how I think, they
(06:45):
affect how I, how I think aboutlove and how I think about
everything.
Really, yeah, the reverse istrue as well.
So when I've written something,I don't have a very good memory.
Actually, I've always had avery, very bad memory.
So sometimes I've, actuallyI've forgotten pieces of my own
thought process.
And I go back and read one ofmy books, like like, what love
is is now kind of getting on for10 years old and I was working
(07:06):
on it like longer ago than that.
So I go back and read some ofit and I'm like, oh yeah, that's
what I, that's what I think.
And then it turns out that thatpiece of of I don't know, that
piece of conceptual technologyis what I needed to solve a
problem in one of my ownrelationships or one of my own
kind of friendships or familyconnections or whatever it might
be.
So yeah, sometimes thatinterconnectedness works out
(07:28):
really well.
Other times it can be somethinga little bit tricky to navigate
.
Finbarre Snarey (07:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for guiding us through
that, and it's funny.
You should mention the bookwhat Love Is.
I saw it in a local bookshopnot a few weeks ago and had to
pick up a copy, so it's sat onmy to-read pile.
Carrie Jenkins (07:46):
Back at my old hometown and all fantastic card
number two are you ready?
I see a hand grasping a bigstick with leaves, hands coming
out of a cloud.
Finbarre Snarey (08:02):
Okay, I don't know quite how defined a webcam
is, but that, of course, is theAce of Wands.
Is it one that you've comeacross before?
Carrie Jenkins (08:10):
No, yeah, yeah, I've gotten to know my deck
pretty well now.
I read for myself most mostdays and, and more than once if
I have questions, I tend to havethis sort of a bit of running
dialogue with my tarot cardsthroughout the day wow, do you
have like um, I don't know likea, like a pouch or a bag that
(08:31):
you keep them in?
Finbarre Snarey (08:32):
so you've got them like near that.
Carrie Jenkins (08:33):
Oh, there we are I do, yeah, I got.
I actually got this at a localwitch's market in vancouver.
It's a nice little silk on thesatin on the inside and um
purple spiderweb design on theoutside that is gorgeous yeah,
quite cool hey, and it just, itfolds over astral alchemy.
Finbarre Snarey (08:52):
That's the maker wow, okay, right, well,
ace of wands.
So it's a card of creativeenergy, a spark of inspiration
symbolizes raw potential andpassion and enthusiasm.
It's a very positive card tobegin with that, and the lovers
as well.
We keep our fingers crossed fora good third card as well.
Um, so yeah.
So it's a card of embracingyour inner drive and instincts.
(09:15):
So let me think of a questionto ask you what are you drinking
over there?
It's a card of embracing yourinner drive and instincts, so
let me think of a question toask you what are you drinking
over there?
Carrie Jenkins (09:20):
it's a lot later in the day for you than it is
for me oh, this is cold, hardwater, right?
Finbarre Snarey (09:28):
so what sparked your passion for philosophy?
Carrie Jenkins (09:33):
oh boy, my relationship with philosophy is
so complicated now, um, thatthat's a.
That's a really tricky questionbecause it kind of depends what
you mean, what you mean byphilosophy, like back in the day
when I was, um, let's say whenI, what is?
I know, right, I, literally I.
(09:53):
So one of books.
The first line is tell aphilosopher you love her and you
better be ready to define yourterms.
And then again the next line isit's funny because it's true it
is.
We can't switch it off Likeanything.
Love philosophy, any word atall.
But with this one, I mean partof the thing is are we talking
about philosophy like theacademic discipline, the
(10:16):
university subject or theactivity that pretty much
everyone does, like little kidsaround about the age of 18?
Um, because I started readingsome, I got turned on to it by
(10:39):
things like Descartes andBertrand Russell and and some
really, like you know, classicfigures of western philosophy.
I was gonna maybe Sophie'schoice, but yeah, I read that
and I loved it and so I was like, yeah, this is fantastic, you
can think about whatever youwant and like, have a great time
.
I want to do that for my job.
So I was like, yeah, this isfantastic, you can think about
whatever you want and have agreat time.
I want to do that for my job.
(10:59):
So I went to study it and I waslucky enough to get a job
teaching philosophy.
In fact I moved around a lotfor different jobs teaching and
researching philosophy.
But then, you know, over timethe kind of the rose-tinted bets
came off and I realizedactually the formalized concept
of philosophy has some problemsthe way people think about it.
(11:23):
It can be quite narrow,constrained to that particular
tradition of Western analyticthought, not very inclusive of
anything or anyone else andother ways of approaching life
and philosophy, uh, in thebroader sense of just, you know,
thinking hard about stuff.
(11:44):
So, yeah, I I kind of um, theshort answer to like what first
stopped sparked me was this Iit's kind of pure intellectual
love for the kind of questionsand the kind of things, kind of
ways of discussing them, theopen-endedness of it, the fact
that you could seemingly thinkabout anything in these ways and
not be told that it'sirrelevant or stupid.
And yeah, I loved all of that.
(12:06):
Eventually, you know, havinggotten a little bit
disillusioned with the academicdiscipline, was what led me to
start.
I actually went back to schooland I got a Master of Fine Arts
in Creative Writing to kind ofbroaden my horizons a little bit
.
That's why I started writingthe poetry and the fiction as
the way of kind of doing some ofthe work that, as I see it, the
(12:26):
academic discipline doesn'tquite make room for, but other
kinds of writing do.
That's a long, rambly answer toyour question, but it's
complicated.
These things are complicated.
Finbarre Snarey (12:38):
I think my follow-on question would be out
of all of the famousphilosophers that I would have
heard, of which one was yourfirst love?
Carrie Jenkins (12:46):
Bertrand Russell .
Have you heard of BertrandRussell, or do I need to go more
into the greatest hits, guys?
Finbarre Snarey (12:53):
I have, but some people who are listening to
this may not have done so.
Can you uh refresh my memoryabout why?
Carrie Jenkins (12:58):
yeah, and he's, he's not still someone I would
place in the beloved philosophercategory, to be clear.
Uh, he's, he's one of thoseproblematic faves, you know
where.
Sure, they did a lot of reallyinteresting philosophy of
mathematics and and their, theirtheories of logic uh, very cool
, very interesting.
And then mathematics and andtheir, their theories of logic
uh, very cool, very interesting.
(13:18):
And then they go and writebooks about eugenics and stuff
like that and it's like ouch um,so you know again, like
complicated, complicated person,um, but he was, he was at, uh,
trinity college in in cambridgeas a, as a young, and then he
kind of eventually he fellcompletely out of favor with
(13:40):
Cambridge because he was apacifist during the war.
This is early 20th century.
This is when he's around thereand he ends up working in the US
and they don't like him overthere either because he's
arguing for things like freelove and sex outside of marriage
and non-monogamousrelationships, which was unusual
at that time.
Goodness, yeah, fascinating guy.
(14:02):
Fascinating guy.
But also, I mean, none of thatwas what I was reading.
I was just reading hisphilosophy of mind and his
philosophy of mathematics, whichwere things I was super into
Early on.
I got really interested inmathematics.
Just like think about like what, what are numbers?
How do they work?
How do we know about two plustwo equals four?
How do you know that like thatto me is like super fascinating
(14:22):
question.
He had lots to say about stufflike that.
So I'm like this is, this isvery cool.
And then, many years later, Iwas like yeah, and you said this
other very cool stuff and thiscompletely shocking and horrific
stuff and oh, my goodness.
So yeah, that's BertrandRussell for you.
Thank you so much.
Also a member of the Britisharistocracy.
Finbarre Snarey (14:41):
Oh, really, mm-hmm.
Oh, I did not know.
I'm going to have to look himup and a bit of a public
intellectual before it was cool.
Was it ever cool.
Carrie Jenkins (15:02):
No, it's never been cool, let's face it, it's
not.
It wasn't.
But uh, yeah, he was one of theone of the earliest people to
be quite interested in actuallywriting his, his philosophical
stuff out into the world.
And he was an activist too,anti-nuclear, pro um, early
advocate of gay rights for menin the uk, or at least
decriminalization, which waswhere where that discussion was
at at the time okay, I mean fromyour super interesting guy,
(15:25):
from your warm and glowingdescription, it sounds like that
maybe the good outweighed thebad.
Finbarre Snarey (15:29):
But I'll need to look into more about some of
this politics it's very hard toweigh these things.
Carrie Jenkins (15:35):
You know, it's sort of like it's everything all
at once.
There's some very cool stuffand some very, very bad stuff.
Very hard to weigh them againsteach other.
I don't remember exactly thesource for this.
I might need to check it, buthe was involved in the creation
of the CND logo that became apeace sign.
He was involved in these earlyuh campaigns for nuclear disarm,
(15:57):
disarmament that um uh createdthat that logo.
Finbarre Snarey (16:01):
It became, you know, kind of internationally
recognized symbol of peace well,I would have recognized at aged
eight I think I was eight orseven.
I was on the greenham commonmarches with my mum oh yeah, and
it was.
I was there standing outsidethe barbed wire with a pink
balloon that said gaze againstthe bomb.
Carrie Jenkins (16:24):
Okay card number three you got, you got started
early right, I have a pile ofcards.
Finbarre Snarey (16:32):
we have two down down, one to go and I would
cross my fingers for anothergood card, but I would drop them
.
Carrie Jenkins (16:40):
All the cards are good and bad, all of them,
just like all of the people.
There is no.
I've really gotten, I've reallystarted to get into feeling
this more and more over time.
But there aren't good cards.
I don't think the Lovers isnecessarily a good card, for
example, like if you noticethere's, uh, there's chains in
(17:01):
that card, uh, and I, I thinkpeople have a natural tendency
to think of it as uh, something,something they want to see when
they're, when they're doingreadings.
But, um, in, in a lot of ways Iit can be, it can be pretty
scary too.
Sorry, not chain a snake, um,the chains are in the in the
devil card.
So so the, the, the parallelismof the of the devil card and
(17:24):
the and the lover card is thatthere's chains in the devil and
the snake in the lover, um, inthe lovers, and the snake is
kind of twining around the, anapple tree behind the, the, uh,
the, the woman figure, womanfigure in the card and sort of
whispering in her ear.
It's all very biblical.
There's always trouble inparadise, is what I'm saying.
Finbarre Snarey (17:45):
It's funny you're talking about the
possibility of the lovers beinga card of misfortune, because my
children are really into theGreek myths myths.
One of the story, one of thestories they're really enjoying
at the moment, is the judgmentof paris.
So the idea of turning downathene, turning down hera and
then choosing aphrodite, becausewhat could go wrong?
Carrie Jenkins (18:05):
right what could go wrong?
Finbarre Snarey (18:08):
spells an epic disaster and it's always apples.
Carrie Jenkins (18:12):
For some reason people, people like it doesn't
break a good apple, does it.
Finbarre Snarey (18:19):
Do you know what I hate?
Apples.
Carrie Jenkins (18:21):
It's the one thing I can't stand.
But yeah, they're always kindof a fruit.
I guess they're always bound upwith discord and disquiet, even
in what look like heavenlyenvironments, but yeah, the
lovers.
Coming back to the interactionof my work and the other things,
(18:43):
I think my work on love isquite critical, especially of
romance, the idea of romance asa kind of a myth or a narrative
that we live by.
I think it's responsible for alot of BS and causes a lot of
damage to a lot of a myth or anarrative that we live by.
I think it's really it'sresponsible for a lot of BS and
causes a lot of damage to a lotof folks.
And if we have better ways ofunderstanding love that maybe
(19:03):
didn't look as much like whatwe're seeing on the lover's card
but had more flexibility interms of like, well, what could
love look like?
Does it have to be a naked manand a naked woman doing
something sinful with an apple?
No, not really.
There are actually a lot ofother pictures of love.
So it's not love per se that Ithink is to blame, but certain
(19:25):
ways of imagining it and kindsof limitations maybe that we
artificially place on love.
I think that's a problem.
Finbarre Snarey (19:34):
I think you're absolutely right.
I think the figures thereshould be more formless in a way
.
And, as you say, why are therejust two?
Carrie Jenkins (19:42):
Why are there two?
Why is there a male and femalefigure?
Finbarre Snarey (19:47):
What are we?
Carrie Jenkins (19:47):
doing with our myths.
Finbarre Snarey (19:49):
Time to pick one.
Carrie Jenkins (19:51):
All right, let's do it.
Finbarre Snarey (19:52):
Let's do the last one.
Let me know when you're ready.
What do you see?
Carrie Jenkins (20:02):
Well, I don't have like good and bad cards,
but I definitely have favourites, and this is one of my
favourites.
This is the Queen of Wands.
I love her.
I see a lady on a throne inyellow robes with a sunflower
and a black cat, and everythingabout that is awesome and what
she meant to you in the past oh,I mean the kind of thing, the
(20:25):
kind of thing I associate withher are, you know, we're talking
about that creative energy inthe ace of wands card, that
spark of passion, um, I thinkyou know, in the ace of the suit
of wands that that energy isobviously in a beginner form.
It's, it's ready to go and it'sjust, like you know, getting
getting things moving.
It's very motivated, very, verypowerful.
(20:46):
But the queen of wands is, um,she sort of represents, I guess
in some way, the later stage ofthat process.
It's more in control, more incommand.
She's, uh, she's already grownher sunflower and she's very
happy with it and like, here itis, and she's, she's got this
black cat which you know, uh, alot of context would be regarded
(21:08):
as unlucky, or you knowsomething that, uh, that people
are scared of, uh, but she is,it looks like that's her pet cat
, right, or or maybe just a cat,her familiar, right, and this
is the cat who hangs out withher, that she's friends with,
and so she's kind of defiant ofother people's stupid ideas
about what is and isn't a goodkind of cat to have around, and
(21:32):
she's, she's, she's moisturizedand and in her lane and she's
like, you know all of that goodstuff.
So that's that's what I see umpart of why I see part of why
she's one of my favorite cardsand someone who embraces their
inner fire.
Finbarre Snarey (21:45):
Can I ask do you have a cat at the moment?
Carrie Jenkins (21:48):
I do um.
In fact, I have a black cat.
Um, she's also a hairless blackcat, she's a she's a sphinx cat
, so yeah, well moistur.
I have a black dog and alsothat's need to be moisturised,
because you know that hairlesscats.
Actually you have to give thema regular bath, which mine hates
, but it's good for her skin andshe does get a little bit of
(22:10):
dry skin now and again, so youhave to pop the oil.
Finbarre Snarey (22:13):
She still kind of licks herself clean and
things yeah she does, sheherself clean and things.
Carrie Jenkins (22:16):
Yeah, she does, she licks herself and and cleans
herself.
It's just that the the oilbuilds up and then, you know, a
hairy cat hair would sort ofcarry the oil away from the skin
, but she doesn't have any hair,so it just kind of sort of sits
there a little bit and so, yeah, bath bath once every week or
so and a little bit of olive oilif she gets patch of dry skin.
Okay, but she helps me with mytarot readings in exchange.
Finbarre Snarey (22:42):
She sounds like a very good familiar.
I do have.
I've got two.
Carrie Jenkins (22:45):
Her name's Drusilla.
Finbarre Snarey (22:46):
Oh, Drusilla yeah From Buffy.
Carrie Jenkins (22:50):
After yes, yeah, after the vampire in Buffy the
Vampire Slayer, because sheactually looks pretty similar
with the kind of wrinklyforehead.
Finbarre Snarey (23:00):
And the same peculiar accent.
Yeah.
Carrie Jenkins (23:02):
Obviously yeah, and she's obviously a spacey
witch cat, so it's just aperfect name.
Finbarre Snarey (23:10):
You won't be able to see either of my two
because I've got my gingernonsense sleeping on the bed
here who hasn't moved all day.
I've got one of these umstand-up desks and you press a
button and it raises and lowers.
Oh yeah, he was snoozing onthat and I pressed the button,
it moved.
Carrie Jenkins (23:26):
He just did not care why would he, as long as
the bed is still there?
Finbarre Snarey (23:33):
of course.
And my tabby just over hereagain.
I mean she's a very sweet,lovely little creature, but, of
course, and my tabby just overhere again, I mean she's a very
sweet, lovely little creature,but they could snooze as an
Olympic sport, these two, right?
My question for you is how doyou feel that you've inspired
and led people in your field?
Carrie Jenkins (23:57):
Right, this might be aspirational because I
don't know that I've done any ofthat kind of thing, but what
I'm trying to do, what I'd loveto do, it has to do with an idea
about sort of creating andcrafting the work which I feel
like should have a capital W,like I'm an alchemist or
something, the work that I do inways that are not dictated by,
(24:18):
like, my job contract or or amanager or something like that,
right, so?
So I'm paid by a universitywhich, uh, which is, uh, you
know, an institution actually,but the one I work for now it's
very, very big university, biginstitution, run by the
government, british Columbia,well, and funded by the
government of British Columbia.
Well, I'm funded by thegovernment of British Columbia,
(24:39):
and so, you know, it has all thekinds of suite of disadvantages
and advantages that you getalong with that.
You know, in many ways thegoals of the institution are not
well aligned with my own, andso what the institution views as
my job obviously that's thekind of thing I have to do to
get a paycheck Now, does thatmean I have no leeway to kind of
(25:00):
craft and make it work for me,make it cohere with the rest of
my life and the things that areactually meaningful and valuable
to me.
No, I can do that, and so partof what I would love to be able
to do is be part of redefiningor reshaping what an academic
life can be Like.
What can a scholarly life looklike?
(25:22):
Because the kind of model forit that I've inherited I suppose
is the right word inherited, orbeen handed is one where you're
working mostly for otherscholars and writing articles
that then get hidden behindpaywalls and are anyway written
in very inaccessible languageand that concern things that
(25:44):
only a few people in the worldare interested in.
Now I do do that like, and Iactually do think some of that's
valuable activity.
I don't like the paywall part.
I wish that would.
Just people would just get overit and publish things.
Open access that's a wholeseparate rant we could get into.
I think there is somethingreally valuable about doing
these kind of technicalinvestigations of things that
aren't very interesting to manypeople and using the conceptual
(26:06):
vocabulary that goes along withall of that.
It's just.
I don't think that's the onlything that scholarly life can
look like.
So you know, I wanted to be awriter as well.
I want to write fiction andpoetry as well.
I want that to be a writer aswell, I want to write fiction,
poetry as well.
I want that to be understood tobe part of what scholarly life
can look like.
I want reading tarot to be partof what scholarly life can look
(26:26):
like.
I'm not the only one who doesthis.
There's, there's a few, there'squite a few of us, and so I'm
kind of, if there's, if there'sa kind of thing that I would
love for to be able to kind ofmake more possible for other
people later by doing it now,it's that it's being able to
make this kind of job, this kindof life, into something that
coheres with what I think willactually best use my skills and
(26:48):
abilities, um, in ways that Ithink are meaningful and
valuable.
Um, and for me, that that doesinvolve more things than I was
trained to do and more thingsthat are in my job contract, and
I want to make it more okay tohave that kind of approach to
really any kind of job and anykind of role in life.
(27:09):
So this is really very much ofa piece with some of my
arguments about love andrelationships, which are just.
You know, we should be able tocraft these things to fit the
shapes we need and we want, andso you know people who want to
live in non-monogamousrelationships.
You know that's part of what Icall love crafting, which has
(27:31):
nothing to do with Cthulhu butis more like job crafting, which
is a concept that actuallycomes out of business and
management studies of all places.
But this idea that I'm talkingabout, where you can kind of
make the job more of a fit withyour own values and skills and
interests, that's been describedas job crafting and I've tried
(27:52):
to argue yeah, we should be jobcrafting, we should also be love
crafting and we should be lifecrafting and not kind of fitting
ourselves to predefined scriptsor our ideas that are handed to
us and that may actually bevery, very harmful and limited,
in the same way that that kindof picture of what love can be
on the lover's card is limitedand harmful if we think it's the
(28:16):
only picture.
That felt like quite a ramble,but there we go.
That's that's why that's that'sone thing I would love to be
able to to do.
I do so.
This happened yesterday, whichreminded me I.
Sometimes people write to meand they say look, I really
liked your book for some reasonand and a lot yesterday, cause
I'm I've been having a bit of arough, rough ride the last
(28:37):
couple of weeks I read that andI was like oh, that's so lovely.
And I just started crying,because it is nice to be
reminded that there are peopleout there and something you've
done or something you've writtenhas helped them or moved them
in some way.
But I mean, obviously that's abig part of it too, that feeling
that the actual products of mywork and my writing are helping
(28:58):
someone, you know, someonesomewhere.
If I'm able to do that, then itfeels like it's worth it.
Finbarre Snarey (29:05):
A huge thank you to Carrie Jenkins for
sharing her wisdom and insightswith us.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to follow the podcast and
leave a review, because itreally helps.
You can also connect withCarrie and explore her work
through the links in the shownotes.
And until next time, keepexploring, stay curious and let
the cards reveal their magic.
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