June 16, 2025 • 27 mins
Chloe De Lullington is a writer, chronic overthinker, and queen of the chaotic coming-of-age narrative. Her debut novel Cacoethes (Northodox Press, June 2025) is a bold, funny, and unflinching exploration of queer longing, bad decisions, and the mess of early adulthood.
Chloe’s background spans screenwriting and fiction. Whether she’s writing in silence or swapping blurbs in the wild world of indie lit, her work pulses with honesty, humour, and a refusal to tidy up the mess too neatly.
Order Cacoethes now at Northodox Press
Tarot Interviews credits
- Host and producer: Finbarre Snarey
- Theme music composer: Amelia Lawn
- Additional music: Nicola Snarey
- Cover art: Rein G
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amelia Lawn (00:19):
(sings) Tarot Interviews.
Finbarre Snarey (00:30):
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
Today's guest is , a writer andcontent specialist whose work
includes screenwriting andfiction.
Chloe's debut novel, cacowethes, is out in June 2025 from
Northodox Press.
It's a bold, funny and personalcoming-of-age story centred on
a young woman navigating dating,self-worth and the chaos of her
(00:50):
early twenties.
Will Chloe draw from the suitof the cups today the suit of
emotion, love and relationships?
It would be fitting.
In this episode we'll talkabout her path to fiction, the
themes at the heart ofCacowethes and how she
approaches storytelling in allof its forms.
Let's find out which card shegets.
Hi, chloe, to Lellington.
It's an absolute pleasure tomeet you at last.
Chloe De Lullington (01:10):
Lovely to meet you.
I have had a nightmare of aweek and I've been looking
forward to this.
So thank you very much forhaving me.
If you'll indulge me, pleasetell me about the nightmare, go
on.
Oh, so we are my partner and Ilive in a do-a-rupper, which we
bought as a project.
But the thing about ado-a-rupper is you then have to
do it up and if you make DIYmistakes, that's kind of on you.
(01:30):
If you hire professionals tocome in and they make mistakes,
that are then costing you quitea lot to fix, that's a different
story.
So that's where we are at themoment.
So it's been a bit of aneventful week.
Finbarre Snarey (01:41):
What kind of do-it-up are we talking about?
We're looking at a farmhouse,we're looking at a bomb shelter.
Chloe De Lullington (01:50):
It is a lovely little Victorian railway
workers' cottage.
It's very fun but it's quitestuck in the 90s design-wise
Hasn't really been touched sincethen.
Finbarre Snarey (01:57):
Which, as we know from the Matrix, is the
pinnacle of civilisation.
Yes, absolutely yes, sorry,from my age I have exceptional
fondness for the 90s.
Wonderful, mainly, mainly thepartying and the blackouts that
occurred afterwards.
I have to ask what was it thattickled your inspiration to
(02:18):
think I know what?
I'm going to talk to thisrandom guy with some tarot cards
on a Sunday.
Chloe De Lullington (02:23):
I just love the format of this podcast.
I didn't know it existed andthen I saw it.
I thought brilliant.
And so I am not massivelyfamiliar with tarot as well, so
my exposure to it mainly comesfrom the TikTok tarot readers as
all good things.
Very influenced by that, so Istarted seeing them pop up on my
(02:44):
tiktok fyp and it just seemedquite interesting.
So it's not something I'mmassively familiar with at all,
um, but what a great premise fora, for an interview and for a
podcast claudia luddington, hereare your cards, just here.
Finbarre Snarey (02:57):
And of course this is going to be audio only,
so people won't be able to seethe lovely cards I have in my
hands.
But I will trust you todescribe what jumps out on each
card to you, and it doesn'tmatter.
It could be as mundane as youlike, it could be oh, that's a
nice color.
Or it could be a specificdetail.
It could be something like aserpent coiled around a spoke.
So I'll start shuffling.
Chloe De Lullington (03:15):
Here we go oh, we have ourselves the King
of Wands there, looking veryregal, lovely, lovely long sage
green cape, which is very muchmy color of the moment at the
moment, um, so I'm enjoying thestylistic choices it's having a
bit of a renaissance, isn't it?
it is.
I fear it's becoming a littlebit of millennial gray.
(03:37):
That was the, that was thefashion choice before in
people's houses, and now it'skind of um, become sage green,
and I I do love sage green, butI fear it might age quite
quickly.
If it's kind of become sagegreen and I do love sage green,
but I fear it might age quitequickly If it's very in now it
will be very out in a year.
Finbarre Snarey (03:48):
What vibes are you getting from the card?
Chloe De Lullington (03:50):
ibes quite serene, isn't he?
He's a thoughtful young man.
He looks quite young actually.
He's not giving kind of agedking, he's giving quite youthful
sort of Prince HalShakespearean.
Young king vibes there.
Finbarre Snarey (04:03):
Okay, so we have hot king.
I like this.
Chloe De Lullington (04:08):
Yeah, that's what we're going for.
That's the route this podcasthas taken.
That's fine.
Finbarre Snarey (04:13):
Let's go with that.
Yeah, I'm doing this with myhand, like maybe, maybe.
Yeah, he's a good eight, let'ssay Just to let you know.
The classic interpretation ofthe card is someone who's
purposeful, imaginative, readyto tell stories, provoke and
entertain, someone who doesn'twait for permission.
My question to you I quite likethat.
Chloe De Lullington (04:34):
Yeah, all of those are good things when
you've got a book coming out.
Those are things you kind ofwant to hear, so from this, I'll
ask you how do you take chargeof your creative vision and
bring the projects that you workon to fruition?
Finbarre Snarey (04:52):
I think, it really helps to have a very
obsessive personality.
Chloe De Lullington (04:53):
Sorry, obsessive.
Obsessive, yeah, very, veryfixated and very I guess
self-disciplined would be anicer way of phrasing it but I,
so I have a day job which is notwriting, so all of my creative
efforts have to happen kind offrom 5 30 onwards, so it's kind
of the the five to nine, afterthe nine to five, and I think it
(05:15):
takes a lot of.
Nobody else is making you dothis, so you have to if you're
not going to back yourself,nobody is going to um, which
means your projects won't happen, your writing won't happen, it
won't see the light of day, like, and once you've finished it,
it won't see the light of day ifyou don't put it out there as
well, which is something that ittook me quite a long time to.
I kind of I knew ittheoretically, but it took me a
(05:36):
long time to put it intopractice.
It was kind of like well, whyis nothing happening?
I've written this book and thenyou look at your emails and
you've not sent it to anyone andit's kind of this is why you're
putting blocks in your own way,and it took me about 10 years
from starting writing Kakarithisto publishing Kakarithis.
I think it's.
Yeah, I started writing it whenI was 19 and it's coming out a
month before my 30th birthday,so it's been a long slog and I
(06:05):
think every time it's beenspurts of creativity and it's
been spurts of being able tofocus on it.
Around stuff that's happeningin life, a lot changes in 10
years.
You kind of you're not the sameperson that you were.
Um, circumstances, materialcircumstances change a lot.
Relationship circumstanceschange a lot.
Where you are in the worldphysically changes a lot as well
, and you kind of have tomaintain the spark isn't enough.
You kind of have to keep itsimmering on a low heat that
(06:25):
entire time until somebody comesalong and lets you actually
stoke it into a fire thatthey're going to help you bring
to the world, if that makessense.
Finbarre Snarey (06:34):
It does out of interest the characters and the
experiences within the book.
Are these almost crystallizedinto your past, assuming that
there are any resemblances toeither yourself or people that
you know, to characters withinthe story, or is it something
that has grown and aged with you?
Chloe De Lullington (06:51):
s That is a very good question.
I thought about this a lotactually, because what I didn't
want to do is come back to it inthe edit, knowing that I'd
signed this contract for it,come back to it in the edit and
change everything to make itbetter.
I didn't want to be a 30 yearold writing about a 19 year old,
because the character is 18 19at the start of the book and
then it follows her, the maincharacter.
(07:12):
That is a little bit it isexactly, and I did not want that
to happen, because I've alwaysbeen a little bit of an old soul
anyway and I think, like I kindof I say a lot about myself
that I'm sort of like if an oldman was a girl, kind of
culturally.
A lot of my cultural referencesare very much my dad's age and
he's in his 70s now, so he'she's not.
If I'm writing teenagers, I wasnever going to be necessarily a
(07:35):
conventional teenager writingabout teenagers even at the time
.
And you add 10 years onto thatand it is very much.
How do you do fellow kids tothat?
And it is very much.
How do you do fellow kids?
So I haven't done too much toit because I wanted the essence
of it those characters, to bevery much as they were when they
were kind of conceptualized andas they were when they were
written, and it's very muchrooted in the specific time
(07:56):
period as well.
I think it's it's very mucharound the 2017 mark, like 2014
to 2017, and on a really basiclevel, that's when I was at
university.
So these are.
There were kind of memes inthere that I remember from when
I was at university and if I wasgoing to make this an evergreen
young person coming of agestory.
I would have taken thosestraight out because it does age
(08:17):
the piece, but I think that'salso its strength.
I don't think it's meant to be.
I think the experience of ayoung person going to university
now and making bad decisionswould look very different, even
on just a really basic levelpost-covid it's strength.
I don't think it's meant to be.
I think the experience of ayoung person going to university
now and making bad decisionswould look very different, even
on just a really basic level.
Post-covid.
People's relationships aredifferent.
The generation after me aren'tgoing out drinking as much as
well, and you can put down a lotof bad decisions to being drunk
because that's what everybodydoes, whereas when the youth
(08:39):
culture kind of shifts more tosobriety, you can't really blame
your bad decisions on thatanymore.
You just have to take ownershipfor them.
Finbarre Snarey (08:50):
I wish I could go into the bad decisions I made
at university.
My mother-in-law may belistening to this podcast, so I
need to tread very carefully.
But let me say that most of mybad decisions, as you rightly
say, were alcohol-fueled or justthat kind of rambunctiousness
of being away from home for thefirst time and just feeling like
you're invincible.
Chloe De Lullington (09:05):
But the that is exactly it.
That is exactly the word.
I think it's that kind ofYou're in a weird limbo as well,
because if it's the first timethat you've been away from home
or treated even like aquasi-adult ever Nineteen, you
do feel.
Well, I certainly felt like Iknew everything.
And you look back and you think, oh, you were a child, what
were you doing?
Finbarre Snarey (09:21):
I mean, my first step of exploring this
invulnerability was I wentshopping and this is what you do
, and you can basically buywhatever you want, because
you're an adult now.
So I decided to buy this packetof scones and I sat down and I
ate a packet of 10 scones likebiscuits, one after the other,
just because I could.
There was no one there to saythis is a bad idea, finn.
Chloe De Lullington (09:40):
That sounds like a great.
Where were you buying packs often scones?
I think I can only get them insix round here.
That was the 90s for you.
Clearly, Cost of living has hithard.
Some things are better left inthe past, aren't they?
It doesn't mean you regret themhappening, but it's just you
can't really repeat them andhave the same sense of it being
fun even.
Finbarre Snarey (09:59):
Yeah, and it sounds like there's so much
wicked mischief threaded throughthis book.
Chloe De Lullington (10:04):
I hope so.
Yeah, I think quite carefullyabout this as well, because
there's so many.
There are a lot of powerimbalances in this book and
there's a way that you can readit which is quite not po-faced,
but quite like we need toprotect young women, and we do,
because obviously, you know, 19year old girls are vulnerable
and there's a lot of, there's alot of age gap relationships in
(10:25):
this book as well, and so theyyou know that's a tale as old as
time and some of them are a lotbetter than others.
Some of them are very more, alot more obviously exploitative.
Nobody's sleeping with theiruniversity professor, but it's
kind of.
There's not that power dynamicthere, but there is certain
other dynamics.
There's some like money changeshands and people kind of it's
(10:46):
very transactional and there isa way that I think you could
read this book and go gosh,that's awful and it is, but also
it's very funny and I thinkit's important that the I can
say that because I was a 19 yearold girl at the time and it was
kind of everything that you didwould be you do it for the
story, you do it to impressother 19 year old girls, to make
(11:06):
them think you were really cooland really funny and there is a
way of looking at it which ishopefully it entertains people,
hopefully it makes people laugh,but the situations that arise
and the power imbalances thatarise, they are kind of there is
a way of telling this storywhich is very bleak, and there
is a way of telling the storywhich is very bleak, and there
is a way of telling the story,which is the one that I've gone
for, which is gosh, that wasfunny, wasn't it?
Let's not do it again, but itwas funny.
Finbarre Snarey (11:26):
Yeah, and I think all of us who have gone
away from home and who havelived those experiences and made
those mistakes can readsomething like that and have a
better connection to thecharacter.
If this person has made hotmess, disastrous decisions,
either I'm going to go yeah,that was just like me.
Or I can from an objectiveperspective, say, yeah, that was
ridiculous.
I'm glad that I never did that,but you still have that
(11:47):
connection there.
It's.
It's a lot more authentic Ihope so.
Chloe De Lullington (11:50):
Yeah, I, that's what people take from it.
I think the hot mess, baddecisions could also have been
the tagline for I think that's.
That sums it up in one littlesentence.
Finbarre Snarey (12:00):
Okay, right, next card.
Chloe De Lullington (12:05):
Oh, that's snazzy, isn't it?
We've got The Chariot with two.
Looks like sphinxes at thefront there, A very ornate
chariot there with somebody kindof speeding ahead, and I'm not
quite sure what the chariotmeans, but it's intrigued me,
this car, just from looking atit.
Finbarre Snarey (12:21):
Okay, what are the most prominent details?
Chloe De Lullington (12:23):
The Sphinx is at the front and then in the
background.
You've almost got is that kindof towers or buildings in the
back.
I'm not sure how much detail Ican see those in.
Finbarre Snarey (12:32):
In terms of the colour, the framing.
Does it feel like a positivecard to you?
Does it feel threatening?
What are we getting from this?
Chloe De Lullington (12:40):
It's very central, isn't it?
It's on a bright yellowbackground.
It's very striking.
There's a lot of high contrastin this.
You've got the black and thewhite detailing at the front and
the bright yellow at the back.
There's a splash of blue in themiddle there as well, kind of
splashes of red around also.
It's very vibrant.
Finbarre Snarey (13:01):
I'm trying to think of what it would be that
that almost that, that rawness,that sort of vivacity that surge
forwards.
Yeah, it representsdetermination, willpower,
triumph over obstacles andfocused journeys.
It can represent the balancebetween aggression and restraint
.
So can you describe a timewhere determination and focus
have led you to achieve asignificant milestone in your
(13:24):
career?
Chloe De Lullington (13:25):
Yeah, I think it comes back to just I
was talking a bit about havingan obsessive personality and
having to do.
You have to be your owncheerleader, which kind of
doesn't always come verynaturally to me.
I think this extends into thiscard, into this card, um.
So I sent out this book.
(13:45):
I can't remember how many yearsit was out with agents for.
For a couple of years, threeyears maybe, and I had very
nearly I decided to stop sendingout to agents because I was
getting nowhere.
My rejection spreadsheet wasjust um, it was a graveyard, it
was that many ghosts in it, andI submitted it to Northodox
Press, the publisher that it iscoming out with, almost just on
a whim.
(14:06):
I just thought this is they areopen for submissions, they look
great.
I kind of I might have whatthey're looking for.
I'm gonna give it a go and I'mgonna just give it my all,
because at this point I've gotnothing to lose.
I think in the past I've maybebeen either dumbing down in some
of my query letters or some in.
Sometimes, like, sometimes I'vebeen over exuberant about it,
(14:28):
like over forceful possibly, andI think I was trying to be the
author that I thought that agentwanted, whereas with an
orthodox there was almostnothing to lose, it was just
they are an incredible indiepress.
I've written something thatnobody else is really going near
.
I don't know if it is whatthey're looking for, but I think
(14:49):
the best thing to do is just bevery authentic and then also
try not to care too much aboutit.
And I remember getting theemail.
I was in a very boring panel.
I was at the Edinburgh TVFestival because I also do
screenwriting, I'm trying to getinto kind of the screenwriting
world as well and I was on ascheme that the Edinburgh TV
Festival runs called the Network, which is amazing.
(15:11):
It gets people from, like,young people there's not
actually an age gap on this one,so it's people full stop from
underrepresented backgroundsaccess to the TV industry
industry, which is, as we allknow, it's kind of a very closed
shop.
It's who you know, not what youknow, unfortunately.
And so I was there as analumnus of the network and I was
in this panel that I was reallyexcited.
I'm not going to say who it was, but it was a writer that I was
(15:32):
really excited about and theywere just saying the most boring
things imaginable and I justthought this is really, really
disappointing and I startedgoing through my emails on my
phone in the audience verydiscreetly and I got the email
from Norco Docs Press saying welove it, and I really wanted to
get up then and there and justlike run out and phone my
boyfriend and tell him.
And obviously I couldn't.
(15:52):
I had to then sit through thenext half an hour of this
extremely boring panel and Imean that was on me.
I should have just sat thereand listened and not checked my
emails during the panel.
But I remember it being such amilestone and it felt like the
culmination of the last eightyears, seven years and all those
little moments of getting theenergy to send it out and to put
myself forward and, you know,just be out there in the world
(16:15):
and be ready to be perceived.
They'd all added up over aperiod of time and all of a
sudden it had kind of happenedand obviously it hadn't happened
.
The happening is, um, you know,the book hadn't even been
edited, it didn't have a cover,it didn't have anything.
It just had thisacknowledgement, this email,
this kind of yeah,acknowledgement that it existed
and was good and somebody elseliked it, and I think that was
(16:35):
probably the best day of my lifeoh wow, how did you celebrate I
can't remember.
I think I did go out and I Iphoned my boyfriend immediately
as soon as I left the theauditorium.
People were streaming past meand I said they're gonna publish
it.
And he went what?
They're gonna publish it.
And I think I said thatprobably about five or six more
times.
I think that was about as faras my command of language
extended at that point andpresumably your partner got the
(16:56):
message absolutely.
Yes, yeah, it was veryenthusiastic, I think I came
home and like jumped around thehouse for a few days as well.
Just um, just the energy had togo somewhere.
I was really.
I've been saving up for thismoment for years that's
wonderful.
Finbarre Snarey (17:08):
I've got this vision of you, almost like
stepping towards this, thisrocket, and you've got this
large fuse coming out the bottom, you've got the lighter in your
hand and you know that thespark is about to just ignite
your entire future, and I thinkthat must be an amazing feeling
to know that this is the firstday it was Well, it is as well.
Chloe De Lullington (17:24):
Yeah, and it's got even more pronounced in
the next two years since.
So they announced two years inadvance, a lot of publishers
announced two years in advance,and so you have that moment of
you can tell everyone as soon asthe ink is dry on the contract,
can tell everyone.
But then you have to thenmaintain that something big is
coming for the next couple ofyears as well.
So there's been that's when allyou do, all of the um behind
(17:46):
the scenes work, and obviouslythe editing and the kind of
putting together your, yourmarketing plan and everything,
and now it's we're at the nextstage of the big rocket going
off, which is the book comingout into the world.
Finbarre Snarey (17:57):
So yes, I completely agree, fabulous so we
did have a major arcana there.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the difference
between the minor and the major.
The major arcana obviously allthe the famous ones you know
your lovers, your deaths, yourhanged man and the fool, which
is one of my favorite ones.
And of course, you've got theminor arcana cards, which are
more similar to playing cards.
Uh, no less significant, but alot of people will look at them
(18:19):
and go what the hell does thatmean?
So I'm hoping we get one that'sslightly more clear for you
than maybe the chariot whereyou've got a pair of sphinxes
with boobs, from what I can see.
Chloe De Lullington (18:30):
There is a lot going on in that card.
Yeah, visually it's verymaximalist, isn't it?
Finbarre Snarey (18:35):
It really is right, okay, so here we go and
stop.
Okay, this may look a littlefamiliar.
Chloe De Lullington (18:46):
Oh, we've got.
Is that the King of Wands?
We've got there.
Finbarre Snarey (18:50):
No, this is the Queen of Wands.
Chloe De Lullington (18:51):
Oh, the Queen of Wands.
I was going to say I thinkwe've already had the King of
Wands there.
She is Excellent.
She's very glamorous.
Is that a little sunflowershe's got growing out of her?
Finbarre Snarey (18:59):
Well, she's in her hand, possibly there, the
sunflower, the staff and a kindof beautiful golden yellow
flowing dress which I amcoveting quite badly actually I
have so many friends that areinvolved with tarot readings or
tarot interpretation or witchyin some form or fashion, and
(19:22):
this is always, always afavorite card, um, so I don't
know if you can see that I meanyou have the uh, peak cat lady.
She is, you know, moisturized.
She's in her lane.
Chloe De Lullington (19:31):
Everything is worth flourishing yeah,
exactly, exactly, excellent,okay, I have, um, I have a black
cat sat in my window.
Right now, I have two cats, theblack cat and the tabby, and
the black cat is literally satin the sun sunning himself, so I
feel like that's something,isn't it?
Finbarre Snarey (19:45):
May I ask their names?
Chloe De Lullington (19:46):
Yeah, so the black cat is Bodhi and then
the tabby cat is Doyle.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with, in the 70s or 80s
there was a very blokeydetective show called the
Professionals, which I saw itthrough reruns on ITV4 because
my dad would watch it and at thetime I thought this is the most
boring thing in the world.
And then, during the pandemic,because I hadn't seen my parents
(20:07):
for a couple of years, and theprofessionals started showing
reruns on Amazon Prime and Istarted watching it and I got
very, very attached to it.
And then my partner and Iadopted these kittens and we
didn't like the names that theycame with and so we were
thinking of pair names that gotogether.
And he said why don't we callthem Bodie and Doyle, which are
the characters from theProfessionals?
So we call them Bodie and Doyle, the Per-fessionals.
(20:29):
Oh no which is her.
Isn't that horrendous?
But now when I think I knowit's awful, isn't it?
I made them an instagram andeverything.
Um, it was.
It was a weird time.
But now when I think bodie anddoyle, I think my cats.
Finbarre Snarey (20:45):
I don't think um 1970s dad tv yeah, I've got,
um, I've got three cats.
I've got, uh, we've got bexley,who we've called bexley from
red dwarf.
There is a a character calledjim Bexley, who we've called
Bexley from Red Dwarf.
There is a character called JimBexley Speed, who is Lister's
son.
Don't ask me how we got there,it's just one of those stories.
Chloe De Lullington (21:01):
I love that .
Finbarre Snarey (21:03):
We also have two other cats who came as a
pair.
One's called Beigli, which isHungarian, I believe, for sweet
roll or sweet.
Oh nice, and Dios, which isHungarian for walnut flavoured.
Chloe De Lullington (21:15):
That's nice , and diosh, which is hungarian
for walnut flavored.
That's very cute.
You could open a patisseriewith those two couldn't you?
Finbarre Snarey (21:17):
I'm saying what I think you could, but they'll
probably end up sleeping on theshelves and getting fur in the
pastries yeah, I mean my.
Chloe De Lullington (21:22):
My house is very much.
There's carpet and then it's anextra layer and it's just cat
fur.
I'm fighting, losing battlewith these two.
Only one of them is long haired.
Finbarre Snarey (21:29):
I don't know what the other one's playing up,
but there's cat hair everywhereyeah, that's my uh, my
children's uh clothing drawer,like their school uniforms, is
just mainly, mainly ginger atthe moment I've been there.
Chloe De Lullington (21:38):
It's um black, black fur, tabby fur just
everywhere, everywhere you looklet's go back to the uh, the
queen of wands.
Finbarre Snarey (21:44):
It's the card of.
Let me just hold it back up soyou have a visual reference
there she is yeah.
So the queen of wands thriving,thriving, sure.
She's confident, charismatic,she's independent, she's an
epitome of creative leadership.
So someone who is passionate,socially magnetic, unafraid to
take up space.
(22:04):
So it's someone who isunapologetic, it is someone who
is unapologetically themselves.
So, queen of Wands would leadme to ask you who has most
inspired you in the writingcommunity.
Chloe De Lullington (22:16):
Oh, that's a very good question.
So I don't have a somebody thatI aspired to be like in well in
the writing community or ingeneral, and I think partly
that's because so just to throwthings back to when I was a
child, we didn't really havelike tv or modern day books or
anything like.
I grew up quite isolated andthat makes you very, very
(22:39):
independent, also makes you veryweird, but it makes you very
independent you are an old soul,aren't you?
Finbarre Snarey (22:44):
You're described a kind of 1930s
upbringing, you?
Chloe De Lullington (22:47):
it's.
It is very much.
I mean, there was a lot of kindof religious stuff at play
there as well.
So it was, it was that.
And then it was the fact that Iwas um, I was out of school for
seven years because I was illwhen I was a child.
So I kind of grew up likealmost like this tiny maiden
aunt in the mid-2000s very muchout of time, went back to school
for my GCSEs and then had tosort of learn how to be a
(23:10):
teenager and learn how tosocialize with people.
So it was a bit of a learningcurve, but it has meant that
there's not really.
There are people that I admire,but there's not anybody that
I've ever kind of pointed to andgone.
I want to be like them.
But since finding it's, it'skind of happened a bit backwards
for me, because I think whatyou're supposed to do and what I
should have done is you findyour writing community first and
(23:32):
you bed in with them and youshare work with them and you
kind of as a garden, you almostgrow each other like you put
down roots with them.
You grow, you flourish, you seeeach other's successes.
What happened for me is Irefused to show anybody except
the agents that I was sendingthis to this book for several
years, then sent it to anorthodox press who accepted it,
(23:53):
and now I'm realizing I'm goingto have to read it out loud at
events as well, which I was notprepared to do.
When I wrote it it was verymuch written to be read in
silence and laughed at.
It wasn't written to be readout loud, and I've done that to
myself.
It's all self-inflicted.
But since moving into thewriting community a lot more,
there's been people that Ireally admire, and a couple of
them have agreed to do potentialblurb quotes for the book as
(24:15):
well, which is insane.
Like you can just you can slideinto people's dms, say I really
liked your book, would you liketo read mine?
And they'll say yes, which isbonkers, hi, you're a writer.
I'm a writer it is a bit likethat.
Yeah, it is, and I found thatso strange.
I think I got really liketingly hands the first time I
sent a dm to somebody to askthem if they would like to read
my book.
It was like a writer that Iadmired.
(24:36):
I got really kind of tingly andit was all very, oh, this is a
really big deal, what if theydon't like me?
And then the response that theygave was so quick and so casual
that I just thought this isactually really underwhelming in
a really good way.
It's very normal for them and Ifeel like I'm kind of part of
the community and we do justswap book reviews and blurb
quotes and things.
Now, and it's amazing, and I'vebeen asked to do one for
(24:56):
somebody else as well, which wasa really big milestone, but
again, very casually delivered,the message was very, very chill
and I was like, oh, but this isa really big deal for me
because I've never been asked todo a blurb quote for anyone
before.
But, um, yeah, so there'sthere's, there's people now that
I admire, but I don't think ofthem as being aspirational so
much as just like kind of coolwomen doing cool writing things.
If, if that makes sense, Ithink.
(25:18):
Um, so Isabelle Kenyon, who runsFly On The Wall Press.
She's based in Manchester aswell and we became friends
through this book, through thekind of the publishing journey,
even though it's not with herpress and we've now we just go
out for coffee and I think it's.
It's a really nice position tobe in because she's a novelist.
She wrote the Dark Within Them,which is kind of incredible
(25:39):
crime thriller set in a veryreligious community.
It's really good.
And she also runs her ownpublishers, like a small press
that's won awards and she'salways doing incredible things
and it's been really helpful forme to see she almost represents
the entire spectrum ofpublishing now because she is
the writer, she also does allthe marketing.
She also kind of teaches peopleabout publishing, the business
(26:00):
of publishing.
So I guess, distilled into oneperson, it would be her.
But growing up and kind ofwriting the book, it was very
much done.
The growing up was done inisolation, the writing the book
was done in isolation.
It was very much a sort of soloendeavor.
Finbarre Snarey (26:13):
Chloe de Lullington.
Thank you so much for your .
What have you got planned forthe rest of the day?
Chloe De Lullington (26:18):
That is a very good question.
I've got two very sleepy catsaround here and as soon as I
finish this interview Iguarantee they're going to wake
up and want their dinner.
So probably feeding the cats,going for a walk in the sunshine
and then not thinking about thehouse renovations I've got to
do next week.
Finbarre Snarey (26:31):
That was Honest, sharp and unafraid to
write about vulnerability,connection and those messy
truths in between.
Her debut novel,, arrives Junefrom Northodox Press.
You can pre-order now via thelink in our show notes.
And thank you for listening toTarot Interviews with Fin.
Until next time.
Amelia Lawn (26:51):
(sings) Tarot Interviews.
(sings) Tarot Interviews.
Finbarre Snarey (00:30):
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
Today's guest is , a writer andcontent specialist whose work
includes screenwriting andfiction.
Chloe's debut novel, cacowethes, is out in June 2025 from
Northodox Press.
It's a bold, funny and personalcoming-of-age story centred on
a young woman navigating dating,self-worth and the chaos of her
(00:50):
early twenties.
Will Chloe draw from the suitof the cups today the suit of
emotion, love and relationships?
It would be fitting.
In this episode we'll talkabout her path to fiction, the
themes at the heart ofCacowethes and how she
approaches storytelling in allof its forms.
Let's find out which card shegets.
Hi, chloe, to Lellington.
It's an absolute pleasure tomeet you at last.
Chloe De Lullington (01:10):
Lovely to meet you.
I have had a nightmare of aweek and I've been looking
forward to this.
So thank you very much forhaving me.
If you'll indulge me, pleasetell me about the nightmare, go
on.
Oh, so we are my partner and Ilive in a do-a-rupper, which we
bought as a project.
But the thing about ado-a-rupper is you then have to
do it up and if you make DIYmistakes, that's kind of on you.
(01:30):
If you hire professionals tocome in and they make mistakes,
that are then costing you quitea lot to fix, that's a different
story.
So that's where we are at themoment.
So it's been a bit of aneventful week.
Finbarre Snarey (01:41):
What kind of do-it-up are we talking about?
We're looking at a farmhouse,we're looking at a bomb shelter.
Chloe De Lullington (01:50):
It is a lovely little Victorian railway
workers' cottage.
It's very fun but it's quitestuck in the 90s design-wise
Hasn't really been touched sincethen.
Finbarre Snarey (01:57):
Which, as we know from the Matrix, is the
pinnacle of civilisation.
Yes, absolutely yes, sorry,from my age I have exceptional
fondness for the 90s.
Wonderful, mainly, mainly thepartying and the blackouts that
occurred afterwards.
I have to ask what was it thattickled your inspiration to
(02:18):
think I know what?
I'm going to talk to thisrandom guy with some tarot cards
on a Sunday.
Chloe De Lullington (02:23):
I just love the format of this podcast.
I didn't know it existed andthen I saw it.
I thought brilliant.
And so I am not massivelyfamiliar with tarot as well, so
my exposure to it mainly comesfrom the TikTok tarot readers as
all good things.
Very influenced by that, so Istarted seeing them pop up on my
(02:44):
tiktok fyp and it just seemedquite interesting.
So it's not something I'mmassively familiar with at all,
um, but what a great premise fora, for an interview and for a
podcast claudia luddington, hereare your cards, just here.
Finbarre Snarey (02:57):
And of course this is going to be audio only,
so people won't be able to seethe lovely cards I have in my
hands.
But I will trust you todescribe what jumps out on each
card to you, and it doesn'tmatter.
It could be as mundane as youlike, it could be oh, that's a
nice color.
Or it could be a specificdetail.
It could be something like aserpent coiled around a spoke.
So I'll start shuffling.
Chloe De Lullington (03:15):
Here we go oh, we have ourselves the King
of Wands there, looking veryregal, lovely, lovely long sage
green cape, which is very muchmy color of the moment at the
moment, um, so I'm enjoying thestylistic choices it's having a
bit of a renaissance, isn't it?
it is.
I fear it's becoming a littlebit of millennial gray.
(03:37):
That was the, that was thefashion choice before in
people's houses, and now it'skind of um, become sage green,
and I I do love sage green, butI fear it might age quite
quickly.
If it's kind of become sagegreen and I do love sage green,
but I fear it might age quitequickly If it's very in now it
will be very out in a year.
Finbarre Snarey (03:48):
What vibes are you getting from the card?
Chloe De Lullington (03:50):
ibes quite serene, isn't he?
He's a thoughtful young man.
He looks quite young actually.
He's not giving kind of agedking, he's giving quite youthful
sort of Prince HalShakespearean.
Young king vibes there.
Finbarre Snarey (04:03):
Okay, so we have hot king.
I like this.
Chloe De Lullington (04:08):
Yeah, that's what we're going for.
That's the route this podcasthas taken.
That's fine.
Finbarre Snarey (04:13):
Let's go with that.
Yeah, I'm doing this with myhand, like maybe, maybe.
Yeah, he's a good eight, let'ssay Just to let you know.
The classic interpretation ofthe card is someone who's
purposeful, imaginative, readyto tell stories, provoke and
entertain, someone who doesn'twait for permission.
My question to you I quite likethat.
Chloe De Lullington (04:34):
Yeah, all of those are good things when
you've got a book coming out.
Those are things you kind ofwant to hear, so from this, I'll
ask you how do you take chargeof your creative vision and
bring the projects that you workon to fruition?
Finbarre Snarey (04:52):
I think, it really helps to have a very
obsessive personality.
Chloe De Lullington (04:53):
Sorry, obsessive.
Obsessive, yeah, very, veryfixated and very I guess
self-disciplined would be anicer way of phrasing it but I,
so I have a day job which is notwriting, so all of my creative
efforts have to happen kind offrom 5 30 onwards, so it's kind
of the the five to nine, afterthe nine to five, and I think it
(05:15):
takes a lot of.
Nobody else is making you dothis, so you have to if you're
not going to back yourself,nobody is going to um, which
means your projects won't happen, your writing won't happen, it
won't see the light of day, like, and once you've finished it,
it won't see the light of day ifyou don't put it out there as
well, which is something that ittook me quite a long time to.
I kind of I knew ittheoretically, but it took me a
(05:36):
long time to put it intopractice.
It was kind of like well, whyis nothing happening?
I've written this book and thenyou look at your emails and
you've not sent it to anyone andit's kind of this is why you're
putting blocks in your own way,and it took me about 10 years
from starting writing Kakarithisto publishing Kakarithis.
I think it's.
Yeah, I started writing it whenI was 19 and it's coming out a
month before my 30th birthday,so it's been a long slog and I
(06:05):
think every time it's beenspurts of creativity and it's
been spurts of being able tofocus on it.
Around stuff that's happeningin life, a lot changes in 10
years.
You kind of you're not the sameperson that you were.
Um, circumstances, materialcircumstances change a lot.
Relationship circumstanceschange a lot.
Where you are in the worldphysically changes a lot as well
, and you kind of have tomaintain the spark isn't enough.
You kind of have to keep itsimmering on a low heat that
(06:25):
entire time until somebody comesalong and lets you actually
stoke it into a fire thatthey're going to help you bring
to the world, if that makessense.
Finbarre Snarey (06:34):
It does out of interest the characters and the
experiences within the book.
Are these almost crystallizedinto your past, assuming that
there are any resemblances toeither yourself or people that
you know, to characters withinthe story, or is it something
that has grown and aged with you?
Chloe De Lullington (06:51):
s That is a very good question.
I thought about this a lotactually, because what I didn't
want to do is come back to it inthe edit, knowing that I'd
signed this contract for it,come back to it in the edit and
change everything to make itbetter.
I didn't want to be a 30 yearold writing about a 19 year old,
because the character is 18 19at the start of the book and
then it follows her, the maincharacter.
(07:12):
That is a little bit it isexactly, and I did not want that
to happen, because I've alwaysbeen a little bit of an old soul
anyway and I think, like I kindof I say a lot about myself
that I'm sort of like if an oldman was a girl, kind of
culturally.
A lot of my cultural referencesare very much my dad's age and
he's in his 70s now, so he'she's not.
If I'm writing teenagers, I wasnever going to be necessarily a
(07:35):
conventional teenager writingabout teenagers even at the time
.
And you add 10 years onto thatand it is very much.
How do you do fellow kids tothat?
And it is very much.
How do you do fellow kids?
So I haven't done too much toit because I wanted the essence
of it those characters, to bevery much as they were when they
were kind of conceptualized andas they were when they were
written, and it's very muchrooted in the specific time
(07:56):
period as well.
I think it's it's very mucharound the 2017 mark, like 2014
to 2017, and on a really basiclevel, that's when I was at
university.
So these are.
There were kind of memes inthere that I remember from when
I was at university and if I wasgoing to make this an evergreen
young person coming of agestory.
I would have taken thosestraight out because it does age
(08:17):
the piece, but I think that'salso its strength.
I don't think it's meant to be.
I think the experience of ayoung person going to university
now and making bad decisionswould look very different, even
on just a really basic levelpost-covid it's strength.
I don't think it's meant to be.
I think the experience of ayoung person going to university
now and making bad decisionswould look very different, even
on just a really basic level.
Post-covid.
People's relationships aredifferent.
The generation after me aren'tgoing out drinking as much as
well, and you can put down a lotof bad decisions to being drunk
because that's what everybodydoes, whereas when the youth
(08:39):
culture kind of shifts more tosobriety, you can't really blame
your bad decisions on thatanymore.
You just have to take ownershipfor them.
Finbarre Snarey (08:50):
I wish I could go into the bad decisions I made
at university.
My mother-in-law may belistening to this podcast, so I
need to tread very carefully.
But let me say that most of mybad decisions, as you rightly
say, were alcohol-fueled or justthat kind of rambunctiousness
of being away from home for thefirst time and just feeling like
you're invincible.
Chloe De Lullington (09:05):
But the that is exactly it.
That is exactly the word.
I think it's that kind ofYou're in a weird limbo as well,
because if it's the first timethat you've been away from home
or treated even like aquasi-adult ever Nineteen, you
do feel.
Well, I certainly felt like Iknew everything.
And you look back and you think, oh, you were a child, what
were you doing?
Finbarre Snarey (09:21):
I mean, my first step of exploring this
invulnerability was I wentshopping and this is what you do
, and you can basically buywhatever you want, because
you're an adult now.
So I decided to buy this packetof scones and I sat down and I
ate a packet of 10 scones likebiscuits, one after the other,
just because I could.
There was no one there to saythis is a bad idea, finn.
Chloe De Lullington (09:40):
That sounds like a great.
Where were you buying packs often scones?
I think I can only get them insix round here.
That was the 90s for you.
Clearly, Cost of living has hithard.
Some things are better left inthe past, aren't they?
It doesn't mean you regret themhappening, but it's just you
can't really repeat them andhave the same sense of it being
fun even.
Finbarre Snarey (09:59):
Yeah, and it sounds like there's so much
wicked mischief threaded throughthis book.
Chloe De Lullington (10:04):
I hope so.
Yeah, I think quite carefullyabout this as well, because
there's so many.
There are a lot of powerimbalances in this book and
there's a way that you can readit which is quite not po-faced,
but quite like we need toprotect young women, and we do,
because obviously, you know, 19year old girls are vulnerable
and there's a lot of, there's alot of age gap relationships in
(10:25):
this book as well, and so theyyou know that's a tale as old as
time and some of them are a lotbetter than others.
Some of them are very more, alot more obviously exploitative.
Nobody's sleeping with theiruniversity professor, but it's
kind of.
There's not that power dynamicthere, but there is certain
other dynamics.
There's some like money changeshands and people kind of it's
(10:46):
very transactional and there isa way that I think you could
read this book and go gosh,that's awful and it is, but also
it's very funny and I thinkit's important that the I can
say that because I was a 19 yearold girl at the time and it was
kind of everything that you didwould be you do it for the
story, you do it to impressother 19 year old girls, to make
(11:06):
them think you were really cooland really funny and there is a
way of looking at it which ishopefully it entertains people,
hopefully it makes people laugh,but the situations that arise
and the power imbalances thatarise, they are kind of there is
a way of telling this storywhich is very bleak, and there
is a way of telling the storywhich is very bleak, and there
is a way of telling the story,which is the one that I've gone
for, which is gosh, that wasfunny, wasn't it?
Let's not do it again, but itwas funny.
Finbarre Snarey (11:26):
Yeah, and I think all of us who have gone
away from home and who havelived those experiences and made
those mistakes can readsomething like that and have a
better connection to thecharacter.
If this person has made hotmess, disastrous decisions,
either I'm going to go yeah,that was just like me.
Or I can from an objectiveperspective, say, yeah, that was
ridiculous.
I'm glad that I never did that,but you still have that
(11:47):
connection there.
It's.
It's a lot more authentic Ihope so.
Chloe De Lullington (11:50):
Yeah, I, that's what people take from it.
I think the hot mess, baddecisions could also have been
the tagline for I think that's.
That sums it up in one littlesentence.
Finbarre Snarey (12:00):
Okay, right, next card.
Chloe De Lullington (12:05):
Oh, that's snazzy, isn't it?
We've got The Chariot with two.
Looks like sphinxes at thefront there, A very ornate
chariot there with somebody kindof speeding ahead, and I'm not
quite sure what the chariotmeans, but it's intrigued me,
this car, just from looking atit.
Finbarre Snarey (12:21):
Okay, what are the most prominent details?
Chloe De Lullington (12:23):
The Sphinx is at the front and then in the
background.
You've almost got is that kindof towers or buildings in the
back.
I'm not sure how much detail Ican see those in.
Finbarre Snarey (12:32):
In terms of the colour, the framing.
Does it feel like a positivecard to you?
Does it feel threatening?
What are we getting from this?
Chloe De Lullington (12:40):
It's very central, isn't it?
It's on a bright yellowbackground.
It's very striking.
There's a lot of high contrastin this.
You've got the black and thewhite detailing at the front and
the bright yellow at the back.
There's a splash of blue in themiddle there as well, kind of
splashes of red around also.
It's very vibrant.
Finbarre Snarey (13:01):
I'm trying to think of what it would be that
that almost that, that rawness,that sort of vivacity that surge
forwards.
Yeah, it representsdetermination, willpower,
triumph over obstacles andfocused journeys.
It can represent the balancebetween aggression and restraint
.
So can you describe a timewhere determination and focus
have led you to achieve asignificant milestone in your
(13:24):
career?
Chloe De Lullington (13:25):
Yeah, I think it comes back to just I
was talking a bit about havingan obsessive personality and
having to do.
You have to be your owncheerleader, which kind of
doesn't always come verynaturally to me.
I think this extends into thiscard, into this card, um.
So I sent out this book.
(13:45):
I can't remember how many yearsit was out with agents for.
For a couple of years, threeyears maybe, and I had very
nearly I decided to stop sendingout to agents because I was
getting nowhere.
My rejection spreadsheet wasjust um, it was a graveyard, it
was that many ghosts in it, andI submitted it to Northodox
Press, the publisher that it iscoming out with, almost just on
a whim.
(14:06):
I just thought this is they areopen for submissions, they look
great.
I kind of I might have whatthey're looking for.
I'm gonna give it a go and I'mgonna just give it my all,
because at this point I've gotnothing to lose.
I think in the past I've maybebeen either dumbing down in some
of my query letters or some in.
Sometimes, like, sometimes I'vebeen over exuberant about it,
(14:28):
like over forceful possibly, andI think I was trying to be the
author that I thought that agentwanted, whereas with an
orthodox there was almostnothing to lose, it was just
they are an incredible indiepress.
I've written something thatnobody else is really going near
.
I don't know if it is whatthey're looking for, but I think
(14:49):
the best thing to do is just bevery authentic and then also
try not to care too much aboutit.
And I remember getting theemail.
I was in a very boring panel.
I was at the Edinburgh TVFestival because I also do
screenwriting, I'm trying to getinto kind of the screenwriting
world as well and I was on ascheme that the Edinburgh TV
Festival runs called the Network, which is amazing.
(15:11):
It gets people from, like,young people there's not
actually an age gap on this one,so it's people full stop from
underrepresented backgroundsaccess to the TV industry
industry, which is, as we allknow, it's kind of a very closed
shop.
It's who you know, not what youknow, unfortunately.
And so I was there as analumnus of the network and I was
in this panel that I was reallyexcited.
I'm not going to say who it was, but it was a writer that I was
(15:32):
really excited about and theywere just saying the most boring
things imaginable and I justthought this is really, really
disappointing and I startedgoing through my emails on my
phone in the audience verydiscreetly and I got the email
from Norco Docs Press saying welove it, and I really wanted to
get up then and there and justlike run out and phone my
boyfriend and tell him.
And obviously I couldn't.
(15:52):
I had to then sit through thenext half an hour of this
extremely boring panel and Imean that was on me.
I should have just sat thereand listened and not checked my
emails during the panel.
But I remember it being such amilestone and it felt like the
culmination of the last eightyears, seven years and all those
little moments of getting theenergy to send it out and to put
myself forward and, you know,just be out there in the world
(16:15):
and be ready to be perceived.
They'd all added up over aperiod of time and all of a
sudden it had kind of happenedand obviously it hadn't happened
.
The happening is, um, you know,the book hadn't even been
edited, it didn't have a cover,it didn't have anything.
It just had thisacknowledgement, this email,
this kind of yeah,acknowledgement that it existed
and was good and somebody elseliked it, and I think that was
(16:35):
probably the best day of my lifeoh wow, how did you celebrate I
can't remember.
I think I did go out and I Iphoned my boyfriend immediately
as soon as I left the theauditorium.
People were streaming past meand I said they're gonna publish
it.
And he went what?
They're gonna publish it.
And I think I said thatprobably about five or six more
times.
I think that was about as faras my command of language
extended at that point andpresumably your partner got the
(16:56):
message absolutely.
Yes, yeah, it was veryenthusiastic, I think I came
home and like jumped around thehouse for a few days as well.
Just um, just the energy had togo somewhere.
I was really.
I've been saving up for thismoment for years that's
wonderful.
Finbarre Snarey (17:08):
I've got this vision of you, almost like
stepping towards this, thisrocket, and you've got this
large fuse coming out the bottom, you've got the lighter in your
hand and you know that thespark is about to just ignite
your entire future, and I thinkthat must be an amazing feeling
to know that this is the firstday it was Well, it is as well.
Chloe De Lullington (17:24):
Yeah, and it's got even more pronounced in
the next two years since.
So they announced two years inadvance, a lot of publishers
announced two years in advance,and so you have that moment of
you can tell everyone as soon asthe ink is dry on the contract,
can tell everyone.
But then you have to thenmaintain that something big is
coming for the next couple ofyears as well.
So there's been that's when allyou do, all of the um behind
(17:46):
the scenes work, and obviouslythe editing and the kind of
putting together your, yourmarketing plan and everything,
and now it's we're at the nextstage of the big rocket going
off, which is the book comingout into the world.
Finbarre Snarey (17:57):
So yes, I completely agree, fabulous so we
did have a major arcana there.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the difference
between the minor and the major.
The major arcana obviously allthe the famous ones you know
your lovers, your deaths, yourhanged man and the fool, which
is one of my favorite ones.
And of course, you've got theminor arcana cards, which are
more similar to playing cards.
Uh, no less significant, but alot of people will look at them
(18:19):
and go what the hell does thatmean?
So I'm hoping we get one that'sslightly more clear for you
than maybe the chariot whereyou've got a pair of sphinxes
with boobs, from what I can see.
Chloe De Lullington (18:30):
There is a lot going on in that card.
Yeah, visually it's verymaximalist, isn't it?
Finbarre Snarey (18:35):
It really is right, okay, so here we go and
stop.
Okay, this may look a littlefamiliar.
Chloe De Lullington (18:46):
Oh, we've got.
Is that the King of Wands?
We've got there.
Finbarre Snarey (18:50):
No, this is the Queen of Wands.
Chloe De Lullington (18:51):
Oh, the Queen of Wands.
I was going to say I thinkwe've already had the King of
Wands there.
She is Excellent.
She's very glamorous.
Is that a little sunflowershe's got growing out of her?
Finbarre Snarey (18:59):
Well, she's in her hand, possibly there, the
sunflower, the staff and a kindof beautiful golden yellow
flowing dress which I amcoveting quite badly actually I
have so many friends that areinvolved with tarot readings or
tarot interpretation or witchyin some form or fashion, and
(19:22):
this is always, always afavorite card, um, so I don't
know if you can see that I meanyou have the uh, peak cat lady.
She is, you know, moisturized.
She's in her lane.
Chloe De Lullington (19:31):
Everything is worth flourishing yeah,
exactly, exactly, excellent,okay, I have, um, I have a black
cat sat in my window.
Right now, I have two cats, theblack cat and the tabby, and
the black cat is literally satin the sun sunning himself, so I
feel like that's something,isn't it?
Finbarre Snarey (19:45):
May I ask their names?
Chloe De Lullington (19:46):
Yeah, so the black cat is Bodhi and then
the tabby cat is Doyle.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with, in the 70s or 80s
there was a very blokeydetective show called the
Professionals, which I saw itthrough reruns on ITV4 because
my dad would watch it and at thetime I thought this is the most
boring thing in the world.
And then, during the pandemic,because I hadn't seen my parents
(20:07):
for a couple of years, and theprofessionals started showing
reruns on Amazon Prime and Istarted watching it and I got
very, very attached to it.
And then my partner and Iadopted these kittens and we
didn't like the names that theycame with and so we were
thinking of pair names that gotogether.
And he said why don't we callthem Bodie and Doyle, which are
the characters from theProfessionals?
So we call them Bodie and Doyle, the Per-fessionals.
(20:29):
Oh no which is her.
Isn't that horrendous?
But now when I think I knowit's awful, isn't it?
I made them an instagram andeverything.
Um, it was.
It was a weird time.
But now when I think bodie anddoyle, I think my cats.
Finbarre Snarey (20:45):
I don't think um 1970s dad tv yeah, I've got,
um, I've got three cats.
I've got, uh, we've got bexley,who we've called bexley from
red dwarf.
There is a a character calledjim Bexley, who we've called
Bexley from Red Dwarf.
There is a character called JimBexley Speed, who is Lister's
son.
Don't ask me how we got there,it's just one of those stories.
Chloe De Lullington (21:01):
I love that .
Finbarre Snarey (21:03):
We also have two other cats who came as a
pair.
One's called Beigli, which isHungarian, I believe, for sweet
roll or sweet.
Oh nice, and Dios, which isHungarian for walnut flavoured.
Chloe De Lullington (21:15):
That's nice , and diosh, which is hungarian
for walnut flavored.
That's very cute.
You could open a patisseriewith those two couldn't you?
Finbarre Snarey (21:17):
I'm saying what I think you could, but they'll
probably end up sleeping on theshelves and getting fur in the
pastries yeah, I mean my.
Chloe De Lullington (21:22):
My house is very much.
There's carpet and then it's anextra layer and it's just cat
fur.
I'm fighting, losing battlewith these two.
Only one of them is long haired.
Finbarre Snarey (21:29):
I don't know what the other one's playing up,
but there's cat hair everywhereyeah, that's my uh, my
children's uh clothing drawer,like their school uniforms, is
just mainly, mainly ginger atthe moment I've been there.
Chloe De Lullington (21:38):
It's um black, black fur, tabby fur just
everywhere, everywhere you looklet's go back to the uh, the
queen of wands.
Finbarre Snarey (21:44):
It's the card of.
Let me just hold it back up soyou have a visual reference
there she is yeah.
So the queen of wands thriving,thriving, sure.
She's confident, charismatic,she's independent, she's an
epitome of creative leadership.
So someone who is passionate,socially magnetic, unafraid to
take up space.
(22:04):
So it's someone who isunapologetic, it is someone who
is unapologetically themselves.
So, queen of Wands would leadme to ask you who has most
inspired you in the writingcommunity.
Chloe De Lullington (22:16):
Oh, that's a very good question.
So I don't have a somebody thatI aspired to be like in well in
the writing community or ingeneral, and I think partly
that's because so just to throwthings back to when I was a
child, we didn't really havelike tv or modern day books or
anything like.
I grew up quite isolated andthat makes you very, very
(22:39):
independent, also makes you veryweird, but it makes you very
independent you are an old soul,aren't you?
Finbarre Snarey (22:44):
You're described a kind of 1930s
upbringing, you?
Chloe De Lullington (22:47):
it's.
It is very much.
I mean, there was a lot of kindof religious stuff at play
there as well.
So it was, it was that.
And then it was the fact that Iwas um, I was out of school for
seven years because I was illwhen I was a child.
So I kind of grew up likealmost like this tiny maiden
aunt in the mid-2000s very muchout of time, went back to school
for my GCSEs and then had tosort of learn how to be a
(23:10):
teenager and learn how tosocialize with people.
So it was a bit of a learningcurve, but it has meant that
there's not really.
There are people that I admire,but there's not anybody that
I've ever kind of pointed to andgone.
I want to be like them.
But since finding it's, it'skind of happened a bit backwards
for me, because I think whatyou're supposed to do and what I
should have done is you findyour writing community first and
(23:32):
you bed in with them and youshare work with them and you
kind of as a garden, you almostgrow each other like you put
down roots with them.
You grow, you flourish, you seeeach other's successes.
What happened for me is Irefused to show anybody except
the agents that I was sendingthis to this book for several
years, then sent it to anorthodox press who accepted it,
(23:53):
and now I'm realizing I'm goingto have to read it out loud at
events as well, which I was notprepared to do.
When I wrote it it was verymuch written to be read in
silence and laughed at.
It wasn't written to be readout loud, and I've done that to
myself.
It's all self-inflicted.
But since moving into thewriting community a lot more,
there's been people that Ireally admire, and a couple of
them have agreed to do potentialblurb quotes for the book as
(24:15):
well, which is insane.
Like you can just you can slideinto people's dms, say I really
liked your book, would you liketo read mine?
And they'll say yes, which isbonkers, hi, you're a writer.
I'm a writer it is a bit likethat.
Yeah, it is, and I found thatso strange.
I think I got really liketingly hands the first time I
sent a dm to somebody to askthem if they would like to read
my book.
It was like a writer that Iadmired.
(24:36):
I got really kind of tingly andit was all very, oh, this is a
really big deal, what if theydon't like me?
And then the response that theygave was so quick and so casual
that I just thought this isactually really underwhelming in
a really good way.
It's very normal for them and Ifeel like I'm kind of part of
the community and we do justswap book reviews and blurb
quotes and things.
Now, and it's amazing, and I'vebeen asked to do one for
(24:56):
somebody else as well, which wasa really big milestone, but
again, very casually delivered,the message was very, very chill
and I was like, oh, but this isa really big deal for me
because I've never been asked todo a blurb quote for anyone
before.
But, um, yeah, so there'sthere's, there's people now that
I admire, but I don't think ofthem as being aspirational so
much as just like kind of coolwomen doing cool writing things.
If, if that makes sense, Ithink.
(25:18):
Um, so Isabelle Kenyon, who runsFly On The Wall Press.
She's based in Manchester aswell and we became friends
through this book, through thekind of the publishing journey,
even though it's not with herpress and we've now we just go
out for coffee and I think it's.
It's a really nice position tobe in because she's a novelist.
She wrote the Dark Within Them,which is kind of incredible
(25:39):
crime thriller set in a veryreligious community.
It's really good.
And she also runs her ownpublishers, like a small press
that's won awards and she'salways doing incredible things
and it's been really helpful forme to see she almost represents
the entire spectrum ofpublishing now because she is
the writer, she also does allthe marketing.
She also kind of teaches peopleabout publishing, the business
(26:00):
of publishing.
So I guess, distilled into oneperson, it would be her.
But growing up and kind ofwriting the book, it was very
much done.
The growing up was done inisolation, the writing the book
was done in isolation.
It was very much a sort of soloendeavor.
Finbarre Snarey (26:13):
Chloe de Lullington.
Thank you so much for your .
What have you got planned forthe rest of the day?
Chloe De Lullington (26:18):
That is a very good question.
I've got two very sleepy catsaround here and as soon as I
finish this interview Iguarantee they're going to wake
up and want their dinner.
So probably feeding the cats,going for a walk in the sunshine
and then not thinking about thehouse renovations I've got to
do next week.
Finbarre Snarey (26:31):
That was Honest, sharp and unafraid to
write about vulnerability,connection and those messy
truths in between.
Her debut novel,, arrives Junefrom Northodox Press.
You can pre-order now via thelink in our show notes.
And thank you for listening toTarot Interviews with Fin.
Until next time.
Amelia Lawn (26:51):
(sings) Tarot Interviews.
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