July 21, 2025 • 38 mins
Kit Whitfield is an English novelist and essayist based in London. Her debut novel, published in 2006 as Bareback (UK) and Benighted (US), was shortlisted for the Authors’ Club Best First Novel Award, longlisted for the Waverton Good Read Award, and optioned by Warner Bros.
Kit is the author of the Gyrford duology - In the Heart of Hidden Things (2022) and its sequel All the Hollow of the Sky (2023) - both longlisted for the BSFA . These novels are set in a fictional pre‑industrial English village and centre on a family of fairy‑smiths who forge iron to repel spirits.
Beyond fiction, she has written a series of critical essays titled What’s on Shudder?/Essays on Horror for Ginger Nuts of Horror.
In her earlier career, Kit trained as a chef and a masseur, and worked in various roles including website editor, quote‑hunter, toy‑shop assistant, and publisher.
Discover more at https://kitwhitfield.blogspot.com/ and https://gnofhorror.com/whats-on-shudder/
Tarot Interviews credits
- Host and producer: Finbarre Snarey
- Theme music composer: Amelia Lawn
- Additional music: Nicola Snarey
- Cover art: Rein G
If you're curious about the cards we use and want to find out more, visit our Tarot Interviews podcast page.
Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Finbarre Snarey (00:19):
Tarot Interviews Today.
In Tarot Interviews with Finthis week, we welcome a writer
whose work reshapes theboundaries of fantasy, folklore
and the human condition.
Kit Whitfield is the acclaimedauthor of Bareback, published in
(00:42):
the US as Benighted, a novelthat reimagines the werewolf
myth through the lens ofinstitutional power and
marginalisation.
A second novel, in Great Waters, an audacious alternate history
of merfolk and monarchy, earneda shortlist nomination for the
World Fantasy Award.
More recently, kit hasenchanted readers with the
Guyford series, beginning withthe In in the heart of hidden
(01:05):
things and continuing with inall of the hollow of the sky,
weaving tales of changelings,kindness and uncanny Englishness
, with a folkloric warmth that'srare in modern fantasy.
Kit's pulling three cards fromthe deck today.
Let's find out what they are.
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
Kit Whitfield, what kind of aday are you having today?
Kit Whitfield (01:26):
I'm good, thank you.
I'm really interested in howthis is going to go, because
this is my first tarot reading.
I've always been interested andI think it's going to be a lot
of fun, but you may have toexpect some stupid questions
from me.
Finbarre Snarey (01:39):
I'm here to guide you through it and I'm
just grateful that you saw astrange man on I think it was
Bluesky, who has a podcast abouttarot cards who said, do you
want to be on the show?
And you're like, yeah, why not,let's do this like yeah, that
sounds like so much fun well,bless you.
The deck of cards is in my handright now.
We're using the Rider WaiteSmith today, as always, and
(02:01):
before I start pulling cards outone by one, we may get major,
we may get minor arcana, andI'll guide you through what all
of those mean.
Are there any particular cardsthat you have had more of an
interest in than others?
Have you seen anything inpopular culture and gone?
What does that mean?
I'm curious.
Kit Whitfield (02:17):
I know that death is supposed to be a good card,
but beyond that I'm curious andI'm going to admit now that I
don't know what any of the suitsmean okay, again, happy to
guide you through all of this,in fact, if it helps illustrate
the cards a little better.
Finbarre Snarey (02:32):
Of course you'll be able to see the
pictures themselves, but werecently, at tarot interviews,
made a series of playlists foreach and every card major arcana
, minor arcana and married thatto a particular song that we
quite like.
We are rather biased in thosesong choices, so if there's a
particular card that we pull outthat you're not sure about, I'd
be able to tell you oh, I don'tknow the two of swords that is
(02:56):
represented by, under Pressure,by Queen and David Bowie.
And then immediately I get thevibe Okay, so the cards are in
my hand Now.
They have been riffle shuffled10 times to completely randomize
them no chicanery, no nonsense,and I'd like you to tell me
when to stop.
Kit Whitfield (03:18):
Oh, he looks fun.
Finbarre Snarey (03:19):
And you have there the Page of Cups Out of
interest, the Page of Cups.
This may be the first timeyou've seen this.
Kit Whitfield (03:27):
It is actually Okay.
Finbarre Snarey (03:30):
What vibes do you get immediately?
What do the colours say?
What does the pose represent toyou?
Kit Whitfield (03:35):
Intuitively I would say playful, Okay Is this
wildly wrong.
Finbarre Snarey (03:40):
No, no, no.
I mean.
The Page of Cups oftenrepresents hope, inspiration,
possibly immaturity.
This is a card that you want.
Kit Whitfield (03:49):
Well, I'm in the middle of starting a new book,
so inspiration is absolutely agood sign for me.
Finbarre Snarey (03:56):
And cups are always the suit of the heart.
Of course you'd see that in adeck of playing cards
represented by the heartsthemselves, but the Page of Cups
, it brings tender-hearted,imaginative energy.
It's often the arrival of anunexpected message, creative
opportunity, an emotionalopening, that type of thing.
(04:20):
Well creative opportunity soundsbrilliant.
I've got to say I don't know ifyou're familiar with the artist
Dodie, if you've heard any ofDodie's music at all.
In the playlist that we have,the Cups playlist, which is at
tarotinterviewscom forward slashcups.
This card is represented by thesong Human by Dodie.
If you haven't heard it, it isa wonderful, heartfelt, quite
(04:41):
delicate song, but that kind ofgives you an idea of what this
card is about so I will belistening to it shortly right,
let me think of a question Ishould also warn you, I'm really
ignorant about music, so, umnot.
So I may be doing some lookingup after this of course, if you
check out the playlist andthere's one for the major arcana
, one for all of the suits,might give you a slightly better
(05:03):
understanding.
But uh, it's, it's, it's verygood track.
I'm biased because I like allof those songs anyway.
Page of cups.
Okay, what is a surprising ideathat's recently caught your
curiosity that you've come upwith?
Kit Whitfield (05:16):
Recently I have been looking into I'm I'm
starting a new writing projectand I'm playing around with the
idea of spiritualism, so I'vejust uh, finished reading an
enormous long book at thesubject.
So yeah, that's most of thebooks that I've written.
Certainly the books I wrotemost recently, which is the
Guyford series, are set in, Iwould say like once upon a time.
(05:39):
But my rule of thumb there isthat I don't use any language
that you couldn't find inShakespeare, at least in the
dialogue.
I mean, people don't say the andthou, but I'm a big etymology
nerd, so I'm always like lookingup I think this word is not too
modern, but I'm gonna checkSmiths, who live in a village
(06:01):
where it follows a family oftalisman creators, come social
workers who have to support thefolks when they are plagued by
the people, which is to sayhumans, when they're bothered by
fae spirits such as, forexample, fighting bramble bushes
, a pig that thinks it's theGarwain poet, giant spider that
feels extremely sorry for itself, a fiery black dog that eats
(06:26):
landlords who he is a fanfavorite I can't imagine why.
And um, I've got a book, um onsubmission right now, which I I
feel I will jinx if I describe,but that is also set like
several centuries ago.
So for me, looking intosomething that's still
historical but a bit more modernhas been a recent creative idea
(06:48):
.
Finbarre Snarey (06:49):
So when you say spiritualism, are we talking
like the kind of 1920s stylespiritualism, or is the
influence 1860s is what.
I'm looking at Okay, Not anarea I'm familiar with but what
gave you this idea?
Kit Whitfield (07:04):
I honestly can't tell you I I'm a writer who goes
very much by prompts for themost part, like last year, um, I
and a friend, charlotte bond,who's lovely fantasy writer, you
should definitely check her outas well we did this game where
another writer, stephanieburgess, and her, released a
(07:24):
one-word prompt for drawingevery day of Halloween.
So we decided you know whatwe're going to do.
We're going to write a shortstory every day for a month
according to these prompts,which were things like toothy or
moon or bad hair day orwhatever.
So I'm someone who writes verymuch in response to.
(07:45):
There are some writers who havea million ideas lined up in
their head ready to go.
I envy them, but I am somebodywho, if you toss me a ball, I
will run with it, but I kind ofneed the initial prompt.
So spiritualism.
The truth is, I've just beenlike reading books of folklore,
reading books of history, and Ithink I just tripped over this
(08:08):
idea and thought, well, I'mgoing to see what I can come up
with.
And I'm in the stage at themoment, very much where I'm I
call it making mud pies.
I'm just slapping my dearstogether and seeing what happens
.
Finbarre Snarey (08:20):
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush
fan.
The story is going somewhere.
When I was a teenager, I was abig Kate Bush fan.
The story is going somewhere.
She released an album calledthe Dreaming, which, on the
cover of the Dreaming, is apicture of Kate Bush about to
kiss a man who representsHoudini and she's passing a key
to Houdini with her mouth.
That's pretty cool.
(08:45):
Because of this cover, I thenwent on to be quite interested
in Houdini and what he did, andhe spent a good part of his time
outside of doing magic trickstrying to debunk people like
spiritualists, and I seem toremember he was kind of the
James Randi of his era, Exactlyexactly, and I seem to remember
the quote it takes a flimflammer to know.
A flim flammer really broughthis work to me, flim Flammer to
Noah, flim Flammer reallybrought his work to me.
(09:06):
But that's the only side ofspiritualism I've seen has been
the basically the kind of thecharlatanism of it.
But have you been looking intomore of the more spiritual part
of that?
Kit Whitfield (09:15):
What I would say from what I've gathered and
again I do not know what at thispoint would get into a book.
I'd be writing, because theonly way I write books is I
write rubbish until I trip oversomething good, and I'm in the
writing rubbish stage.
But, that said, the read I getis that it was a religion like
(09:35):
many other religions.
It was not unlike, I would say,wicca today, which is to say,
among other things, very much areligion that women could hold a
spiritually authoritative rolein, which was not the case in
most religions.
And I think that there was aspectrum between just straight
(09:56):
up hoaxers who were doing stagemagic, true believers.
At the opposite end of thespectrum and in the middle, I
think you've got people who didbelieve in what they were doing
but felt that, you know, just tohelp the spirits along a bit or
to keep the audience interestedin the real stuff, it's not
really cheating if I just likeregurgitate a bit of muslin and
(10:18):
call it ectoplasm, right?
So I think even in truebelievers there was a certain
amount of stage magic some ofthe time.
But then there was also thingslike automatic writing, which
the people doing it genuinelybelieved in.
And yeah, so there was.
There was, I'd say, quite a widerange of how people believed
(10:40):
what they themselves were sayingand how much their audiences
believed it.
Their audiences would rangefrom true believers to people
who were just kind of goingbecause it seemed like a fun
night out.
To you know, if it was a publicperformance, because middle
class and upper classspiritualists would have private
sittings where the audienceswould be known and part of their
(11:02):
social circle and well behavedWorking class ones who had to do
it for a living could not vettheir audience.
So you could get, you know,drunks heckling you.
You could get what were calledspirit grabbers, people who
would try to like, tackle themanifested spirit to see if it
was actually just the medium ina costume.
Finbarre Snarey (11:21):
It could be quite rowdy if you had public
performances you've just got methinking as well that the, as
far as I'm aware, a lot of thespiritualism when it's been its
most popular tends to be after adisaster or war.
So the people attending thesespiritualist events, it's almost
like a form of therapy beforewe called it therapy.
It's a way of letting yes, or away of releasing that so I can
(11:58):
see the use there.
Kit Whitfield (11:58):
I'd be fascinated to read more.
My grandfather invaded thesession, described as an
irascible old gentleman that shedidn't like very much, who
opined that modern mathematicshad it all very wrong and string
theory was where it was at.
And I mean it may have beencold reading, because I think
many people know an irascibleold gentleman and certainly when
(12:20):
she heard that she said oh oh,that's Cormac.
That's definitely Cormac.
That's the most irascible oldgentleman.
But who knows Certainly ifanybody deceased I ever knew was
the sort to interrupt aspiritualist session, it would
have been my grandfather.
He did like attention.
Finbarre Snarey (12:38):
Okay, well, that's your first card, so
that's one of the minor arcanathat we've just placed down.
We've got two more cards to goStupid, so that's one of the
minor arcana that we've justplaced down.
Kit Whitfield (12:44):
We've got two more cards to go.
Stupid question what's thedifference between the major and
the minor arcana?
Finbarre Snarey (12:48):
The easy way of saying that is, the major
arcana are the famous ones.
The minor arcana are the onesthat look a bit like playing
cards.
I mean, of course, the minorarcana are separated into the
suits that you mentioned.
Each one of those, depending onyour interpretation, can
represent different elements,can represent different kind of
parts of the human experience,with the major arcana being
spirit, for example.
(13:09):
So you might attribute I don'tknow very kind of basic things,
like you might say.
The ones which are representedby fire are the cards of
inspiration.
The cups which represent waterare the cards of deep emotions.
You could take those kind ofreadings from them, but it's all
part of the toolkit.
So the minor arcana are theones that, to be honest, are the
ones I check first when I buy anew deck, because, well, you
(13:30):
get most often for a startbecause there's only 22 major
arcana cards in a 78 card deck.
Kit Whitfield (13:35):
So I like the artwork on the minor arcana to
be good and often people kind ofjust sort of it's the area
where people scamp, because letme guess they will not be the
cards that are shown on themarketing material, right,
Exactly.
Finbarre Snarey (13:51):
The ones that are going to be shown are the
magician, the fool, you know,the famous ones, rarely things
like the hanged man, which isone of my favourite cards, or
death, as you say, for obviousreasons.
That's the difference betweenthe two there.
But after that let's go.
Now, one of them really wantedto say hello.
Let's place that one back.
It's trying to announce itselfthere.
(14:12):
Okay, right, so say stopwhenever you're ready.
Kit Whitfield (14:20):
Queen of Swords.
Finbarre Snarey (14:22):
Another minor arcana there.
Okay, what does the Queen ofSwords say to you?
Kit Whitfield (14:26):
I was talking about Boudicca this morning.
That's what comes to my mindright now.
Finbarre Snarey (14:32):
What were you saying about Boudicca?
Kit Whitfield (14:34):
Bit of crip humour.
I walk with a rollator.
That's like a seat that youwheel along because a few years
ago I decided I was going to getso fit and I injured my back.
So now I walk with a rollatorand I was joking about putting
knives on the wheels and rollingalong like Boudicca, because
when you use a mobility aid youmake a lot of jokes about it.
(14:55):
It's how you get through theday and in fact I have blinged
up my rollator.
It's got like a knitted logwith leaves and a slug across
the bar.
It's got crocheted toadstoolcaps for its cogs.
It's got a velvet seat.
When I'm meeting new people Isay you can find me by I'm the
(15:16):
one with the Goblin Corpsrollator.
So this morning I was thinkingI might Boudica up my rollator.
So history and empowerment andlaughing at yourself would be
the moods I had about that.
Finbarre Snarey (15:30):
The Queen of Swords is a card of clear
perception, of intellect, ofindependence, of taking no
nonsense, suffering no fools.
It represents razor sharpclarity, speaking the truth even
if people don't want to hearthat truth.
It's a card of mature wisdom.
Going back to my songs that Iwas mentioning before, this one
(15:51):
is represented by Paris Paloma'sLabour in our playlist, and if
you haven't heard that one, youreally really do.
It is an incredible one.
I saw Paris Paloma in therescue rooms in.
Not, you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
It is an incredible one.
I saw Paris Paloma in therescue rooms in Nottingham in
the last year and it was one ofthe best gigs that I've been to
for a long time.
It was incredible.
Yes, it's a song that takes onehefty swipe at patriarchy,
(16:11):
queen of Swords.
So the question for you aboutthis one is how do you use
clarity and critique in yourediting process?
Kit Whitfield (16:22):
Well, I would say that the editing process for me
is two things.
There is and I think I can seeboth of them in the light of the
Queen of Swords vibe.
On the one hand, I feel like Ineed to listen to my own ear,
and I'm a writer who I'mphysically very clumsy, but
whenever I talk about editing,suddenly my language gets very
(16:45):
physical.
I talk about rhythm, I talkabout balance, I talk about beat
.
I am a terrible dancer, but Italk about writing like I talk
about choreography, I think,having a clear sense of the
pulse of a sentence, whichprobably I'm the only one who
gets that worked up about, butthat's something that I need to
(17:08):
hear clearly.
On the other hand, when you'rebeing edited, you need to be a
grown-up about it, which meanssomebody may criticize something
and you go, ah no, but then yougo no, hang on a second, hang
on a second.
You know be aggrieved about this, and the rule I have for myself
is if somebody misinterpreted asentence I wrote, they may be
(17:32):
taking away the wrong messagefrom it, but that's on me for
writing a sentence that was notimpossible to misinterpret.
I will go back and I'll changeit, and usually my editors have
had to be quite patient becauseI am very particular in editing.
But my rule of thumb withmyself is if somebody wants a
(17:52):
sentence changed, I will changeit, but I want to be the one who
changes it myself because Iwant to bring it back into a
state of balance.
So if you take out atwo-syllable word and replace it
with a one-syllable word, I'llbe like, okay, we can take that
word out, but I'm choosing adifferent synonym.
Finbarre Snarey (18:12):
Is that because somebody's introduced discord
into your symphony?
Kit Whitfield (18:15):
Essentially, yes, it feels wrong.
It doesn't balance right in myhand, Like I I'm going to call
it a throwing knife, since we'retalking swords, that you know.
If the throwing knife does notbalance right in my hand, I
cannot make it hit the target.
So, yes, I think it's aquestion of maturity and grace,
in that you have to be polite toanybody who's editing you, and
(18:37):
I have edited myself.
It is a difficult job.
I have a tremendous respect foreditors and so, yeah, it's a
question of balancing being nota complete pain in the neck to
work with and at the same time,but I want to make sure that
we're both happy with it.
Finbarre Snarey (18:53):
That makes a lot of sense.
This is not a process that I'veever been through.
Most of my scribblings justonly get to the notepad and I
say notepad generously.
They tend to get onto the backof a bus ticket, onto a beer mat
.
Spontaneous inspiration yeah, Ifind almost any surface other
than your regular blank page tobe the perfect medium, but it
(19:14):
never goes beyond that.
So the idea of somebody lookingat something, refining it,
taking it down to its bestpossible parts to me that is
true magic.
Kit Whitfield (19:24):
I'll tell you, it's an absolute rule of thumb
Never give a writer a beautifulnotebook.
An artist who draws, yeah,they'll use it.
A writer will get blockedbecause they will just feel the
pressure of living up to thisnotebook.
Every good result I've hadusing a notebook has been from a
really tatty, cheap, bashed upone.
You know, the tattier they are,the more sorry I am when they
(19:47):
get filled up because the more Ijust feel oh, that was just
such an unthreatening notebook.
Often these days, my notes, Iwill just email myself something
off a device, not least becauseI have terrible, terrible
handwriting.
I, you know, I am a writer inthe sense that I use language,
(20:07):
in the sense of a fine penman'shand that I lack.
Finbarre Snarey (20:12):
I can imagine you with one of those jewelers,
spy glasses peering at thisarcane script which you jotted
down an hour before pretty much.
Kit Whitfield (20:22):
Yes, I you know give me a moment to forget and I
can't always read my ownhandwriting that I'm a pretty
good typist.
That will have to suffice rightcard number three.
Finbarre Snarey (20:33):
Hey, I will shuffle in the position.
Keep shuffling, yep, and waitfor that universe to boop you.
Kit Whitfield (20:42):
Stop.
Finbarre Snarey (20:46):
Huh, the Knight of Pentacles.
Oh scary, it's one that doesn'tget enough praise, I think.
Now again, what are your vibesfrom this?
From the colour, from what'sgoing on in the picture?
What is it Soti?
Kit Whitfield (20:58):
Oh, I'm getting a very Arthurian vibe because I'm
a fan of the poem Garwain andthe Green Knight.
That's what I think of when Isee a five-pointed star inside
of a circle, but there'ssomething a little doom-laden
about the extremely yellow sky.
He's against.
Finbarre Snarey (21:17):
Can you just remind me about the story of was
it, gawain and the Green KnightVery quickly.
What happens in that story?
Kit Whitfield (21:24):
Oh well, it's Christmas at King Arthur's Court
.
There is festivity, there isfeasting, there is joking, there
is partying.
And just as everybody is reallyinto it, into the hall rides a
gigantic man wreathed in hollyon a massive steed that, like
(21:45):
himself, is green down to thelast pore, and he says to Arthur
, I have a Christmas New Yeargame for you to play.
It's a challenge.
I will kneel and you, or one ofyour knights, whoever feels
brave enough, can take onestroke against me.
I will not resist.
(22:05):
And then, a year from now, Iask that whoever did that to me
comes to me and I will give himback whatever he gave to me.
Everybody is a little nervousabout this, because this is a
green, enormous, gigantic,unsettling, clearly uncanny man
(22:27):
in their midst and there's gotto be a catch here.
Somehow, the Green Knight jeersat their cowardice and Arthur
leaps up and says well, fine,then I will.
But at this point Sir Garwain,who is known as the most
courteous and tactful of all theknights, stands up and says no,
no, my lord uncle, this iscompletely beneath you, I'm
(22:49):
rubbish.
He is not rubbish, he's thebest knight in the court.
But he says you know what?
Everybody knows that I'm onlyhere because I'm your nephew,
I'm expendable, knows that I'monly here because I'm your
nephew, I'm expendable.
My lord, let me do this.
So he goes up and he takes aswing at the green knight and he
knocks his head clear from hisshoulders and it rolls across
the floor.
The green knight stands up,picks it up, tucks it under his
(23:13):
arm and the head says to him Iwill see you in a year then.
And he rides out and thus thetale begins.
Garwain has a pentacle in hisshield which is a five-pointed
star, which is all about how heis devoted to the many five-fold
Christian virtues.
But towards the end of thestory he reveals himself not
(23:36):
quite such a perfect knight ashe aspired to be.
Finbarre Snarey (23:39):
A couple of things.
First of all, I loved yourgreen knight voice.
Thanks.
You had to come from nowhere Inmy imagination as you were
describing that story.
For some reason, gawain in myhead looks just like Mark Owen
from Take that.
He's got that kind of prettyboy vibe, yeah.
Kit Whitfield (23:55):
He's certainly considered a heartthrob.
He gets into trouble laterbecause he is staying at the
manor of a generous knightcalled Ser Bersilak and the lady
of the manor thinks that he'squite the fine fellow, garwain.
And while Garwain is resting,while her husband's off hunting,
she spends three days makingsome very, very serious attempts
(24:16):
to get into that armor, veryserious attempts to get into
that armor.
And uh, garwain does not wishto cuckold his host, especially
since at this point in the tale,another agreement has been made
.
His host has said to him youknow what, mate, you rest up in
bed and I'm gonna go hunting andat the end of the day we will
swap whatever we gained duringthe day.
(24:37):
So so, whatever Garwain getsfrom this lady, according to his
oath he is going to have tohand over to her husband at the
end of the day.
So for more than one reason hefeels he's got to say no.
But she is very determined andturning her down politely
becomes very discreet battle ofits own kind.
Finbarre Snarey (24:57):
Let's see.
I thought that story was goingto end with a and why not both
ending?
Maybe that's the fanfic.
Kit Whitfield (25:04):
Well, there are many queer readings of it.
There's a very good YouTubevideo by, I think, the YouTuber
Kat Rowe, who talks about thequeer history of the Green
Knight story.
It's in Middle English so youmay need to get one with a
parallel translation and it'salso.
It's a rather wonderful form ofverse in which, rather than
(25:26):
rhyming, for the most part thescheme is every line contains
four stressed syllables, atleast three of which alliterate.
So it's lines like three ofwhich alliterate.
So it's lines like the greenercanicht on the prune graderli
him brasses, or the gormer onkringlet under him glide.
And, like I said, I'm a bit ofan etymology geek so I love this
(25:50):
kind of thing which, like inthe second of my two Guyford
books you remember I mentioned,there's a pig that thinks it's
the Gawain poet.
I nicked the I'm going to talkin alliterative verse just
because I thought that wouldjust be really, really fun to
play with and it really was.
Finbarre Snarey (26:06):
I admire that crystalline precision that you
have with language there.
Okay, well, the KnightPentacles he's a steady, loyal,
deeply committed chap, dedicatedto the task at hand.
He represents persistence andhard work, a methodical approach
to building something lasting.
And he's not like the flashierof a knight he doesn't rush, he
(26:27):
plans, he prepares.
He's like Sir Tortoise.
Okay, knight of Pentacles, he'sa mensch.
How do you maintain steadyprogress in a long haul project?
Kit Whitfield (26:40):
How do you maintain steady progress in a
long haul project?
I think?
Well, I would say a life lessonthat I have to live by.
I have a kid with special needsand you do not last in this
life if you can't marathoninstead of sprint, I think.
I mean, I write folk fantasyand anybody who likes fantasy
almost certainly likes the booksof Terry Pratchett.
(27:01):
There is a line in one of them,one of the Witches series, I
think, which I kind offrequently remind myself of,
which is the hard way is prettyhard, but not so hard as the
easy way.
I really agree with that.
Do you know which book that'sfrom?
From Terry Pratchett?
I think it's Lords and Ladies,which is in fact the one that
(27:26):
talks about, where he talksabout the myth of cold iron.
I think it's Lords and Ladies.
I know it's Granny Weatherwaxwho says it.
Finbarre Snarey (27:32):
So you mentioned your child.
How have you managed to workaround?
You know challenges and lowenergy days and anything that
life has had to bring up to bearagainst you when you try to
write.
Kit Whitfield (27:44):
What I would say primarily I mean, apart from the
fact that I mean when he wasvery little, I just didn't have
time, which is why there is abig gap between my second and my
third book hitting the market.
What he has taught me is asense of humor, not just I don't
mean I just sit there and laughat him, because that would be
rotten of me, but he's a veryfunny person.
He's a very playful, energetic,joyful kind of person and
(28:09):
because he's autistic with ADHD,he has a different set of
priorities to me.
So in his toddlerhood was veryimportant, you know, I would be
continually discovering.
Apparently there's a rule thatthe toothpaste has to go on the
left hand side of the sink,which is not a rule that I
thought mattered, but in factthat turned into an inspiration,
(28:32):
because when I started theguyford series, my inspiration
for that was um, there's a taleabout a church in the isle of
man, I believe, which has noroof, and the story goes that
they built it, they added a roof.
Overnight, the fairies knockedthe roof down.
So the next day they builtanother roof.
That night the fairies knockedit down again, and this went
(28:53):
back and forth for some timeuntil they took the point and
now there only stands four wallsand a field and an unfinished
church Because, as the narrator,it was on a kid's program
saying nobody knows why thefairies didn't want it to have a
roof and I thought well,obviously I know why the fairies
didn't want it to have a roof.
It's because the first time theysaw it it had no roof.
(29:15):
So as far as they wereconcerned, it shouldn't have a
roof, because if it was going tohave a roof it would have a
roof, but it didn't have a roof,so it shouldn't have a roof.
And I then started thinking youknow what?
I live in a home where there ismore than one way of thinking
about what's important, and ifyou live together as a loving
(29:35):
family, you have to learn to seethe funny side of each other.
And so that in the end turnsinto an inspiration.
Because I think it took.
I think my writing became morecomical after my son was born,
because sometimes you just haveto acknowledge.
You know what?
(29:56):
Sometimes I think your rulesare silly.
Clearly, sometimes you think myrules are silly.
The two of us banter a lot.
I mean, you cannot persuade anall-DHD child to see things your
way and you will make both ofyou unhappy if you try.
You have to learn to acceptthat we have very different ways
(30:16):
of looking at things and we'regoing to love each other as
different people.
I think that taught me a kindof playfulness and an amusedness
, and I think my more recentbooks have a kind of amused
mother tone to them.
Finbarre Snarey (30:32):
I like that idea of that that slight world
weariness, just with an extrazest of glee.
That sounds wonderful.
Kit Whitfield (30:42):
And an extra zest of you know what the world can
be as silly as you want it to be.
I mean, I hope my books don'tread as completely silly, but
certainly when you're coming upwith ideas, the willingness to
be silly is an absolutely vitalcreative element, because that's
where creative energy comesfrom.
So I think yeah, I think a bigthing I learned from my son is a
(31:05):
willingness to be silly andbeing unselfconscious, because
he is not self-conscious, he isabsolutely himself at all times
and there's a tremendousjoyfulness in that.
Finbarre Snarey (31:22):
And these are the moments where I regret
having an audio podcast, becauseI can see that big beaming
smile that you currently haveright now.
Kit Whitfield (31:30):
Oh, I'm thinking about my son.
Finbarre Snarey (31:34):
Has your son shown any interest in possibly
writing, or is this somethingthat mum does?
Kit Whitfield (31:41):
He has a language disorder, so he certainly has
an interest in, and he has a lotof.
Do you know what echolalia is?
Finbarre Snarey (31:50):
I don't, but it's an amazing word in Scrabble
.
What's it mean?
Kit Whitfield (31:53):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with
echolalia, couldn't you?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you couldreally win with echolalia,
couldn't you?
Echolalia is the impulse torepeat exactly what you have
heard for the satisfaction ofsaying it, or possibly the
compulsion to say it, ratherthan because it conveys any
meaning.
If I say, please stop, that isdriving me crazy.
(32:14):
That doesn't work.
The best I can do is say, couldyou repeat a different phrase
now, please?
Because for him it's a verystrong drive.
So you know he will writethings for the satisfaction, but
it's like CBeebies fan fiction.
I would say he's a very goodartist.
He's a very good paper crafter.
He makes little animations.
I would also say he's a verycreative quoter.
(32:36):
For a long time, because he washaving difficulty learning
language, he would use quotes toexpress himself because he
didn't quite have the phrasehimself.
So, for example, a couple offavorites One time I was making
him put his backpack on, whichhe didn't feel like doing, and
when I insisted he quoted a TVshow about pirates for kids and
(32:58):
said I'll get you back for thisswashbucklers.
He didn't mean he was going toget me back, he was just like
I'm not pleased with you rightnow mummy, I was like, okay,
fair enough.
But my absolute favorite wasthis show called Chuggington,
which is a kind of like latterday Thomas the Tank Engine.
It's about trains who arethey're trainees, they're
learning to do various roles.
(33:20):
He and I were walking down thestreet we ran into a neighbor.
She and I had a friendly chat.
He went shy, he didn't feellike talking to her.
When we finished we walked downthe street and I said to him
that's a very nice lady, youknow.
I think maybe next time youmeet her you might like to say
hello to her, because she's avery nice lady.
And my son, absolutely catchingme at what I was trying to do,
(33:44):
said in the exact Chuggingtonvoice I'm fine, Stop fussing, I
don't want to go to the repairshed.
And I just thought, yeah, yeah,fair cop, I was trying to take
you to the repair shed, I wastrying to change something and
you know what?
I'm going to drop it becauseyou've got me fair and square on
that one, what he's able to do.
But what I would say is thatfor him, language is his second
(34:06):
language.
His first language is visual orsensory, but he's always going
to speak English as if helearned it as an adult, I think,
(34:28):
but you can be very creativewithin that.
Finbarre Snarey (34:31):
It's clear to see where that spark of
inventiveness comes from.
One very quick last thing thatI'm taking from the last card,
the Knight of Pentacles there is.
We're talking about the idea ofgoing at a long project for an
extended period of time.
When do you find the time towrite around your parenting
responsibilities?
Do you write into the middle ofthe night?
(34:52):
Is it something you do here andthere in a cafe, on the bus?
Kit Whitfield (34:56):
I do it when he's at school, basically, and I
mean I also do freelance writingprojects, just, you know, to
make extra money under a penname or under several pen names.
I do it when he's at school.
And I mean in terms oflong-term writing projects,
writing a novel is a long-termwriting project in and of itself
(35:16):
.
It's a big feat of memory pasta certain point.
I think of it as like playingchess against yourself.
In the beginning of it, youhave to set up the pieces such
that you can launch a goodattack on the story and then
finally you get to the end gamewhere suddenly now you are
(35:38):
playing against your former selfand you're trying to beat the
game that you've laid out.
I mean, some people are plannersand some people are improvisers
, and I am absolutely animproviser and this kind of
means there's an enduranceproject in every day not going
(35:59):
okay, I'm just an idiot, I donot know what I'm doing.
Um, because if you are animproviser, the challenge is to
sit down every day, knowing youdon't know what you're doing,
and do it until you finallyfigure it out yeah, that's uh.
Finbarre Snarey (36:17):
I'm just trying to think of what I would do in
your shoes, and hats off to you.
I can't imagine how it must beto maintain an entire world or
the lore that's attached to thatworld, and then the characters
that are attached to that world,and there is just another plane
of existence.
Kit Whitfield (36:34):
How do you do it?
Well, I mean the guy for booksin particular, I would.
It's not very dignified, but Iwould by now describe those
characters as imaginary friends.
You know, I and I think thething is in an imaginary world
you can.
You can give yourself thingsthat the world does not give you
.
So, for example, I believe inwriting happy endings.
(36:57):
I, you know people can, partlybecause it's narratively fun to
contrive, it's an interestingchallenge.
But also I just kind of feelyou know what the world's hard
enough.
You know, when I was young andcarefree I would read sad
endings.
But now I just feel you knowwhat, there is a virtue in
cheering people up, because ifpeople have to go out into the
(37:20):
world and fight for what's right, keeping your strength up with
fiction, and the thing is alsosomething that cheers you up
does not have to be light andinsubstantial, it can be.
And if people like reading Iremember a friend calling a book
that she read like cappuccinofroth and she said this as a
virtue.
And if people like cappuccinofroth and she said this like as
(37:41):
a virtue, and you know peoplelike cappuccino froth, great,
you know, absolutely it.
You know, if it sparks joy,enjoy it.
But happy stories, they don'thave to be less meaningful
because they're not sad.
I feel that there's a certainlike determination not to give
up.
That goes with writing happyendings.
Well, kit whitfield, I willraise a glass of champagne.
Finbarre Snarey (37:55):
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll
raise it anyway to happy endings.
Well, kit Whitfield, I willraise a glass of champagne.
Actually, it's just a mug ofwater, but I'll raise it anyway
to happy endings and have to saythank you.
A bottle of water to you.
Thank you so much for joiningus on Tarot Interviews today.
Absolute pleasure.
Kit Whitfield (38:09):
Thank you for having me.
Finbarre Snarey (38:10):
That was Kit Whitfield in Tarot Interviews,
bringing us into a world wherefantasy doesn't escape reality
but reframes it with clarity,compassion and just the right
hint of strangeness.
You can find her novels wherebooks are sold, including
Bareback in Great Waters and theGuyford series.
Be sure to follow the link inthe episode description for more
of her work.
And, as always, thank you forlistening and join me, Fin, for
(38:33):
the next episode.
Tarot Interviews Today.
In Tarot Interviews with Finthis week, we welcome a writer
whose work reshapes theboundaries of fantasy, folklore
and the human condition.
Kit Whitfield is the acclaimedauthor of Bareback, published in
(00:42):
the US as Benighted, a novelthat reimagines the werewolf
myth through the lens ofinstitutional power and
marginalisation.
A second novel, in Great Waters, an audacious alternate history
of merfolk and monarchy, earneda shortlist nomination for the
World Fantasy Award.
More recently, kit hasenchanted readers with the
Guyford series, beginning withthe In in the heart of hidden
(01:05):
things and continuing with inall of the hollow of the sky,
weaving tales of changelings,kindness and uncanny Englishness
, with a folkloric warmth that'srare in modern fantasy.
Kit's pulling three cards fromthe deck today.
Let's find out what they are.
Welcome to Tarot Interviews.
Kit Whitfield, what kind of aday are you having today?
Kit Whitfield (01:26):
I'm good, thank you.
I'm really interested in howthis is going to go, because
this is my first tarot reading.
I've always been interested andI think it's going to be a lot
of fun, but you may have toexpect some stupid questions
from me.
Finbarre Snarey (01:39):
I'm here to guide you through it and I'm
just grateful that you saw astrange man on I think it was
Bluesky, who has a podcast abouttarot cards who said, do you
want to be on the show?
And you're like, yeah, why not,let's do this like yeah, that
sounds like so much fun well,bless you.
The deck of cards is in my handright now.
We're using the Rider WaiteSmith today, as always, and
(02:01):
before I start pulling cards outone by one, we may get major,
we may get minor arcana, andI'll guide you through what all
of those mean.
Are there any particular cardsthat you have had more of an
interest in than others?
Have you seen anything inpopular culture and gone?
What does that mean?
I'm curious.
Kit Whitfield (02:17):
I know that death is supposed to be a good card,
but beyond that I'm curious andI'm going to admit now that I
don't know what any of the suitsmean okay, again, happy to
guide you through all of this,in fact, if it helps illustrate
the cards a little better.
Finbarre Snarey (02:32):
Of course you'll be able to see the
pictures themselves, but werecently, at tarot interviews,
made a series of playlists foreach and every card major arcana
, minor arcana and married thatto a particular song that we
quite like.
We are rather biased in thosesong choices, so if there's a
particular card that we pull outthat you're not sure about, I'd
be able to tell you oh, I don'tknow the two of swords that is
(02:56):
represented by, under Pressure,by Queen and David Bowie.
And then immediately I get thevibe Okay, so the cards are in
my hand Now.
They have been riffle shuffled10 times to completely randomize
them no chicanery, no nonsense,and I'd like you to tell me
when to stop.
Kit Whitfield (03:18):
Oh, he looks fun.
Finbarre Snarey (03:19):
And you have there the Page of Cups Out of
interest, the Page of Cups.
This may be the first timeyou've seen this.
Kit Whitfield (03:27):
It is actually Okay.
Finbarre Snarey (03:30):
What vibes do you get immediately?
What do the colours say?
What does the pose represent toyou?
Kit Whitfield (03:35):
Intuitively I would say playful, Okay Is this
wildly wrong.
Finbarre Snarey (03:40):
No, no, no.
I mean.
The Page of Cups oftenrepresents hope, inspiration,
possibly immaturity.
This is a card that you want.
Kit Whitfield (03:49):
Well, I'm in the middle of starting a new book,
so inspiration is absolutely agood sign for me.
Finbarre Snarey (03:56):
And cups are always the suit of the heart.
Of course you'd see that in adeck of playing cards
represented by the heartsthemselves, but the Page of Cups
, it brings tender-hearted,imaginative energy.
It's often the arrival of anunexpected message, creative
opportunity, an emotionalopening, that type of thing.
(04:20):
Well creative opportunity soundsbrilliant.
I've got to say I don't know ifyou're familiar with the artist
Dodie, if you've heard any ofDodie's music at all.
In the playlist that we have,the Cups playlist, which is at
tarotinterviewscom forward slashcups.
This card is represented by thesong Human by Dodie.
If you haven't heard it, it isa wonderful, heartfelt, quite
(04:41):
delicate song, but that kind ofgives you an idea of what this
card is about so I will belistening to it shortly right,
let me think of a question Ishould also warn you, I'm really
ignorant about music, so, umnot.
So I may be doing some lookingup after this of course, if you
check out the playlist andthere's one for the major arcana
, one for all of the suits,might give you a slightly better
(05:03):
understanding.
But uh, it's, it's, it's verygood track.
I'm biased because I like allof those songs anyway.
Page of cups.
Okay, what is a surprising ideathat's recently caught your
curiosity that you've come upwith?
Kit Whitfield (05:16):
Recently I have been looking into I'm I'm
starting a new writing projectand I'm playing around with the
idea of spiritualism, so I'vejust uh, finished reading an
enormous long book at thesubject.
So yeah, that's most of thebooks that I've written.
Certainly the books I wrotemost recently, which is the
Guyford series, are set in, Iwould say like once upon a time.
(05:39):
But my rule of thumb there isthat I don't use any language
that you couldn't find inShakespeare, at least in the
dialogue.
I mean, people don't say the andthou, but I'm a big etymology
nerd, so I'm always like lookingup I think this word is not too
modern, but I'm gonna checkSmiths, who live in a village
(06:01):
where it follows a family oftalisman creators, come social
workers who have to support thefolks when they are plagued by
the people, which is to sayhumans, when they're bothered by
fae spirits such as, forexample, fighting bramble bushes
, a pig that thinks it's theGarwain poet, giant spider that
feels extremely sorry for itself, a fiery black dog that eats
(06:26):
landlords who he is a fanfavorite I can't imagine why.
And um, I've got a book, um onsubmission right now, which I I
feel I will jinx if I describe,but that is also set like
several centuries ago.
So for me, looking intosomething that's still
historical but a bit more modernhas been a recent creative idea
(06:48):
.
Finbarre Snarey (06:49):
So when you say spiritualism, are we talking
like the kind of 1920s stylespiritualism, or is the
influence 1860s is what.
I'm looking at Okay, Not anarea I'm familiar with but what
gave you this idea?
Kit Whitfield (07:04):
I honestly can't tell you I I'm a writer who goes
very much by prompts for themost part, like last year, um, I
and a friend, charlotte bond,who's lovely fantasy writer, you
should definitely check her outas well we did this game where
another writer, stephanieburgess, and her, released a
(07:24):
one-word prompt for drawingevery day of Halloween.
So we decided you know whatwe're going to do.
We're going to write a shortstory every day for a month
according to these prompts,which were things like toothy or
moon or bad hair day orwhatever.
So I'm someone who writes verymuch in response to.
(07:45):
There are some writers who havea million ideas lined up in
their head ready to go.
I envy them, but I am somebodywho, if you toss me a ball, I
will run with it, but I kind ofneed the initial prompt.
So spiritualism.
The truth is, I've just beenlike reading books of folklore,
reading books of history, and Ithink I just tripped over this
(08:08):
idea and thought, well, I'mgoing to see what I can come up
with.
And I'm in the stage at themoment, very much where I'm I
call it making mud pies.
I'm just slapping my dearstogether and seeing what happens
.
Finbarre Snarey (08:20):
When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush
fan.
The story is going somewhere.
When I was a teenager, I was abig Kate Bush fan.
The story is going somewhere.
She released an album calledthe Dreaming, which, on the
cover of the Dreaming, is apicture of Kate Bush about to
kiss a man who representsHoudini and she's passing a key
to Houdini with her mouth.
That's pretty cool.
(08:45):
Because of this cover, I thenwent on to be quite interested
in Houdini and what he did, andhe spent a good part of his time
outside of doing magic trickstrying to debunk people like
spiritualists, and I seem toremember he was kind of the
James Randi of his era, Exactlyexactly, and I seem to remember
the quote it takes a flimflammer to know.
A flim flammer really broughthis work to me, flim Flammer to
Noah, flim Flammer reallybrought his work to me.
(09:06):
But that's the only side ofspiritualism I've seen has been
the basically the kind of thecharlatanism of it.
But have you been looking intomore of the more spiritual part
of that?
Kit Whitfield (09:15):
What I would say from what I've gathered and
again I do not know what at thispoint would get into a book.
I'd be writing, because theonly way I write books is I
write rubbish until I trip oversomething good, and I'm in the
writing rubbish stage.
But, that said, the read I getis that it was a religion like
(09:35):
many other religions.
It was not unlike, I would say,wicca today, which is to say,
among other things, very much areligion that women could hold a
spiritually authoritative rolein, which was not the case in
most religions.
And I think that there was aspectrum between just straight
(09:56):
up hoaxers who were doing stagemagic, true believers.
At the opposite end of thespectrum and in the middle, I
think you've got people who didbelieve in what they were doing
but felt that, you know, just tohelp the spirits along a bit or
to keep the audience interestedin the real stuff, it's not
really cheating if I just likeregurgitate a bit of muslin and
(10:18):
call it ectoplasm, right?
So I think even in truebelievers there was a certain
amount of stage magic some ofthe time.
But then there was also thingslike automatic writing, which
the people doing it genuinelybelieved in.
And yeah, so there was.
There was, I'd say, quite a widerange of how people believed
(10:40):
what they themselves were sayingand how much their audiences
believed it.
Their audiences would rangefrom true believers to people
who were just kind of goingbecause it seemed like a fun
night out.
To you know, if it was a publicperformance, because middle
class and upper classspiritualists would have private
sittings where the audienceswould be known and part of their
(11:02):
social circle and well behavedWorking class ones who had to do
it for a living could not vettheir audience.
So you could get, you know,drunks heckling you.
You could get what were calledspirit grabbers, people who
would try to like, tackle themanifested spirit to see if it
was actually just the medium ina costume.
Finbarre Snarey (11:21):
It could be quite rowdy if you had public
performances you've just got methinking as well that the, as
far as I'm aware, a lot of thespiritualism when it's been its
most popular tends to be after adisaster or war.
So the people attending thesespiritualist events, it's almost
like a form of therapy beforewe called it therapy.
It's a way of letting yes, or away of releasing that so I can
(11:58):
see the use there.
Kit Whitfield (11:58):
I'd be fascinated to read more.
My grandfather invaded thesession, described as an
irascible old gentleman that shedidn't like very much, who
opined that modern mathematicshad it all very wrong and string
theory was where it was at.
And I mean it may have beencold reading, because I think
many people know an irascibleold gentleman and certainly when
(12:20):
she heard that she said oh oh,that's Cormac.
That's definitely Cormac.
That's the most irascible oldgentleman.
But who knows Certainly ifanybody deceased I ever knew was
the sort to interrupt aspiritualist session, it would
have been my grandfather.
He did like attention.
Finbarre Snarey (12:38):
Okay, well, that's your first card, so
that's one of the minor arcanathat we've just placed down.
We've got two more cards to goStupid, so that's one of the
minor arcana that we've justplaced down.
Kit Whitfield (12:44):
We've got two more cards to go.
Stupid question what's thedifference between the major and
the minor arcana?
Finbarre Snarey (12:48):
The easy way of saying that is, the major
arcana are the famous ones.
The minor arcana are the onesthat look a bit like playing
cards.
I mean, of course, the minorarcana are separated into the
suits that you mentioned.
Each one of those, depending onyour interpretation, can
represent different elements,can represent different kind of
parts of the human experience,with the major arcana being
spirit, for example.
(13:09):
So you might attribute I don'tknow very kind of basic things,
like you might say.
The ones which are representedby fire are the cards of
inspiration.
The cups which represent waterare the cards of deep emotions.
You could take those kind ofreadings from them, but it's all
part of the toolkit.
So the minor arcana are theones that, to be honest, are the
ones I check first when I buy anew deck, because, well, you
(13:30):
get most often for a startbecause there's only 22 major
arcana cards in a 78 card deck.
Kit Whitfield (13:35):
So I like the artwork on the minor arcana to
be good and often people kind ofjust sort of it's the area
where people scamp, because letme guess they will not be the
cards that are shown on themarketing material, right,
Exactly.
Finbarre Snarey (13:51):
The ones that are going to be shown are the
magician, the fool, you know,the famous ones, rarely things
like the hanged man, which isone of my favourite cards, or
death, as you say, for obviousreasons.
That's the difference betweenthe two there.
But after that let's go.
Now, one of them really wantedto say hello.
Let's place that one back.
It's trying to announce itselfthere.
(14:12):
Okay, right, so say stopwhenever you're ready.
Kit Whitfield (14:20):
Queen of Swords.
Finbarre Snarey (14:22):
Another minor arcana there.
Okay, what does the Queen ofSwords say to you?
Kit Whitfield (14:26):
I was talking about Boudicca this morning.
That's what comes to my mindright now.
Finbarre Snarey (14:32):
What were you saying about Boudicca?
Kit Whitfield (14:34):
Bit of crip humour.
I walk with a rollator.
That's like a seat that youwheel along because a few years
ago I decided I was going to getso fit and I injured my back.
So now I walk with a rollatorand I was joking about putting
knives on the wheels and rollingalong like Boudicca, because
when you use a mobility aid youmake a lot of jokes about it.
(14:55):
It's how you get through theday and in fact I have blinged
up my rollator.
It's got like a knitted logwith leaves and a slug across
the bar.
It's got crocheted toadstoolcaps for its cogs.
It's got a velvet seat.
When I'm meeting new people Isay you can find me by I'm the
(15:16):
one with the Goblin Corpsrollator.
So this morning I was thinkingI might Boudica up my rollator.
So history and empowerment andlaughing at yourself would be
the moods I had about that.
Finbarre Snarey (15:30):
The Queen of Swords is a card of clear
perception, of intellect, ofindependence, of taking no
nonsense, suffering no fools.
It represents razor sharpclarity, speaking the truth even
if people don't want to hearthat truth.
It's a card of mature wisdom.
Going back to my songs that Iwas mentioning before, this one
(15:51):
is represented by Paris Paloma'sLabour in our playlist, and if
you haven't heard that one, youreally really do.
It is an incredible one.
I saw Paris Paloma in therescue rooms in.
Not, you haven't heard that one, you really really do.
It is an incredible one.
I saw Paris Paloma in therescue rooms in Nottingham in
the last year and it was one ofthe best gigs that I've been to
for a long time.
It was incredible.
Yes, it's a song that takes onehefty swipe at patriarchy,
(16:11):
queen of Swords.
So the question for you aboutthis one is how do you use
clarity and critique in yourediting process?
Kit Whitfield (16:22):
Well, I would say that the editing process for me
is two things.
There is and I think I can seeboth of them in the light of the
Queen of Swords vibe.
On the one hand, I feel like Ineed to listen to my own ear,
and I'm a writer who I'mphysically very clumsy, but
whenever I talk about editing,suddenly my language gets very
(16:45):
physical.
I talk about rhythm, I talkabout balance, I talk about beat
.
I am a terrible dancer, but Italk about writing like I talk
about choreography, I think,having a clear sense of the
pulse of a sentence, whichprobably I'm the only one who
gets that worked up about, butthat's something that I need to
(17:08):
hear clearly.
On the other hand, when you'rebeing edited, you need to be a
grown-up about it, which meanssomebody may criticize something
and you go, ah no, but then yougo no, hang on a second, hang
on a second.
You know be aggrieved about this, and the rule I have for myself
is if somebody misinterpreted asentence I wrote, they may be
(17:32):
taking away the wrong messagefrom it, but that's on me for
writing a sentence that was notimpossible to misinterpret.
I will go back and I'll changeit, and usually my editors have
had to be quite patient becauseI am very particular in editing.
But my rule of thumb withmyself is if somebody wants a
(17:52):
sentence changed, I will changeit, but I want to be the one who
changes it myself because Iwant to bring it back into a
state of balance.
So if you take out atwo-syllable word and replace it
with a one-syllable word, I'llbe like, okay, we can take that
word out, but I'm choosing adifferent synonym.
Finbarre Snarey (18:12):
Is that because somebody's introduced discord
into your symphony?
Kit Whitfield (18:15):
Essentially, yes, it feels wrong.
It doesn't balance right in myhand, Like I I'm going to call
it a throwing knife, since we'retalking swords, that you know.
If the throwing knife does notbalance right in my hand, I
cannot make it hit the target.
So, yes, I think it's aquestion of maturity and grace,
in that you have to be polite toanybody who's editing you, and
(18:37):
I have edited myself.
It is a difficult job.
I have a tremendous respect foreditors and so, yeah, it's a
question of balancing being nota complete pain in the neck to
work with and at the same time,but I want to make sure that
we're both happy with it.
Finbarre Snarey (18:53):
That makes a lot of sense.
This is not a process that I'veever been through.
Most of my scribblings justonly get to the notepad and I
say notepad generously.
They tend to get onto the backof a bus ticket, onto a beer mat
.
Spontaneous inspiration yeah, Ifind almost any surface other
than your regular blank page tobe the perfect medium, but it
(19:14):
never goes beyond that.
So the idea of somebody lookingat something, refining it,
taking it down to its bestpossible parts to me that is
true magic.
Kit Whitfield (19:24):
I'll tell you, it's an absolute rule of thumb
Never give a writer a beautifulnotebook.
An artist who draws, yeah,they'll use it.
A writer will get blockedbecause they will just feel the
pressure of living up to thisnotebook.
Every good result I've hadusing a notebook has been from a
really tatty, cheap, bashed upone.
You know, the tattier they are,the more sorry I am when they
(19:47):
get filled up because the more Ijust feel oh, that was just
such an unthreatening notebook.
Often these days, my notes, Iwill just email myself something
off a device, not least becauseI have terrible, terrible
handwriting.
I, you know, I am a writer inthe sense that I use language,
(20:07):
in the sense of a fine penman'shand that I lack.
Finbarre Snarey (20:12):
I can imagine you with one of those jewelers,
spy glasses peering at thisarcane script which you jotted
down an hour before pretty much.
Kit Whitfield (20:22):
Yes, I you know give me a moment to forget and I
can't always read my ownhandwriting that I'm a pretty
good typist.
That will have to suffice rightcard number three.
Finbarre Snarey (20:33):
Hey, I will shuffle in the position.
Keep shuffling, yep, and waitfor that universe to boop you.
Kit Whitfield (20:42):
Stop.
Finbarre Snarey (20:46):
Huh, the Knight of Pentacles.
Oh scary, it's one that doesn'tget enough praise, I think.
Now again, what are your vibesfrom this?
From the colour, from what'sgoing on in the picture?
What is it Soti?
Kit Whitfield (20:58):
Oh, I'm getting a very Arthurian vibe because I'm
a fan of the poem Garwain andthe Green Knight.
That's what I think of when Isee a five-pointed star inside
of a circle, but there'ssomething a little doom-laden
about the extremely yellow sky.
He's against.
Finbarre Snarey (21:17):
Can you just remind me about the story of was
it, gawain and the Green KnightVery quickly.
What happens in that story?
Kit Whitfield (21:24):
Oh well, it's Christmas at King Arthur's Court
.
There is festivity, there isfeasting, there is joking, there
is partying.
And just as everybody is reallyinto it, into the hall rides a
gigantic man wreathed in hollyon a massive steed that, like
(21:45):
himself, is green down to thelast pore, and he says to Arthur
, I have a Christmas New Yeargame for you to play.
It's a challenge.
I will kneel and you, or one ofyour knights, whoever feels
brave enough, can take onestroke against me.
I will not resist.
(22:05):
And then, a year from now, Iask that whoever did that to me
comes to me and I will give himback whatever he gave to me.
Everybody is a little nervousabout this, because this is a
green, enormous, gigantic,unsettling, clearly uncanny man
(22:27):
in their midst and there's gotto be a catch here.
Somehow, the Green Knight jeersat their cowardice and Arthur
leaps up and says well, fine,then I will.
But at this point Sir Garwain,who is known as the most
courteous and tactful of all theknights, stands up and says no,
no, my lord uncle, this iscompletely beneath you, I'm
(22:49):
rubbish.
He is not rubbish, he's thebest knight in the court.
But he says you know what?
Everybody knows that I'm onlyhere because I'm your nephew,
I'm expendable, knows that I'monly here because I'm your
nephew, I'm expendable.
My lord, let me do this.
So he goes up and he takes aswing at the green knight and he
knocks his head clear from hisshoulders and it rolls across
the floor.
The green knight stands up,picks it up, tucks it under his
(23:13):
arm and the head says to him Iwill see you in a year then.
And he rides out and thus thetale begins.
Garwain has a pentacle in hisshield which is a five-pointed
star, which is all about how heis devoted to the many five-fold
Christian virtues.
But towards the end of thestory he reveals himself not
(23:36):
quite such a perfect knight ashe aspired to be.
Finbarre Snarey (23:39):
A couple of things.
First of all, I loved yourgreen knight voice.
Thanks.
You had to come from nowhere Inmy imagination as you were
describing that story.
For some reason, gawain in myhead looks just like Mark Owen
from Take that.
He's got that kind of prettyboy vibe, yeah.
Kit Whitfield (23:55):
He's certainly considered a heartthrob.
He gets into trouble laterbecause he is staying at the
manor of a generous knightcalled Ser Bersilak and the lady
of the manor thinks that he'squite the fine fellow, garwain.
And while Garwain is resting,while her husband's off hunting,
she spends three days makingsome very, very serious attempts
(24:16):
to get into that armor, veryserious attempts to get into
that armor.
And uh, garwain does not wishto cuckold his host, especially
since at this point in the tale,another agreement has been made
.
His host has said to him youknow what, mate, you rest up in
bed and I'm gonna go hunting andat the end of the day we will
swap whatever we gained duringthe day.
(24:37):
So so, whatever Garwain getsfrom this lady, according to his
oath he is going to have tohand over to her husband at the
end of the day.
So for more than one reason hefeels he's got to say no.
But she is very determined andturning her down politely
becomes very discreet battle ofits own kind.
Finbarre Snarey (24:57):
Let's see.
I thought that story was goingto end with a and why not both
ending?
Maybe that's the fanfic.
Kit Whitfield (25:04):
Well, there are many queer readings of it.
There's a very good YouTubevideo by, I think, the YouTuber
Kat Rowe, who talks about thequeer history of the Green
Knight story.
It's in Middle English so youmay need to get one with a
parallel translation and it'salso.
It's a rather wonderful form ofverse in which, rather than
(25:26):
rhyming, for the most part thescheme is every line contains
four stressed syllables, atleast three of which alliterate.
So it's lines like three ofwhich alliterate.
So it's lines like the greenercanicht on the prune graderli
him brasses, or the gormer onkringlet under him glide.
And, like I said, I'm a bit ofan etymology geek so I love this
(25:50):
kind of thing which, like inthe second of my two Guyford
books you remember I mentioned,there's a pig that thinks it's
the Gawain poet.
I nicked the I'm going to talkin alliterative verse just
because I thought that wouldjust be really, really fun to
play with and it really was.
Finbarre Snarey (26:06):
I admire that crystalline precision that you
have with language there.
Okay, well, the KnightPentacles he's a steady, loyal,
deeply committed chap, dedicatedto the task at hand.
He represents persistence andhard work, a methodical approach
to building something lasting.
And he's not like the flashierof a knight he doesn't rush, he
(26:27):
plans, he prepares.
He's like Sir Tortoise.
Okay, knight of Pentacles, he'sa mensch.
How do you maintain steadyprogress in a long haul project?
Kit Whitfield (26:40):
How do you maintain steady progress in a
long haul project?
I think?
Well, I would say a life lessonthat I have to live by.
I have a kid with special needsand you do not last in this
life if you can't marathoninstead of sprint, I think.
I mean, I write folk fantasyand anybody who likes fantasy
almost certainly likes the booksof Terry Pratchett.
(27:01):
There is a line in one of them,one of the Witches series, I
think, which I kind offrequently remind myself of,
which is the hard way is prettyhard, but not so hard as the
easy way.
I really agree with that.
Do you know which book that'sfrom?
From Terry Pratchett?
I think it's Lords and Ladies,which is in fact the one that
(27:26):
talks about, where he talksabout the myth of cold iron.
I think it's Lords and Ladies.
I know it's Granny Weatherwaxwho says it.
Finbarre Snarey (27:32):
So you mentioned your child.
How have you managed to workaround?
You know challenges and lowenergy days and anything that
life has had to bring up to bearagainst you when you try to
write.
Kit Whitfield (27:44):
What I would say primarily I mean, apart from the
fact that I mean when he wasvery little, I just didn't have
time, which is why there is abig gap between my second and my
third book hitting the market.
What he has taught me is asense of humor, not just I don't
mean I just sit there and laughat him, because that would be
rotten of me, but he's a veryfunny person.
He's a very playful, energetic,joyful kind of person and
(28:09):
because he's autistic with ADHD,he has a different set of
priorities to me.
So in his toddlerhood was veryimportant, you know, I would be
continually discovering.
Apparently there's a rule thatthe toothpaste has to go on the
left hand side of the sink,which is not a rule that I
thought mattered, but in factthat turned into an inspiration,
(28:32):
because when I started theguyford series, my inspiration
for that was um, there's a taleabout a church in the isle of
man, I believe, which has noroof, and the story goes that
they built it, they added a roof.
Overnight, the fairies knockedthe roof down.
So the next day they builtanother roof.
That night the fairies knockedit down again, and this went
(28:53):
back and forth for some timeuntil they took the point and
now there only stands four wallsand a field and an unfinished
church Because, as the narrator,it was on a kid's program
saying nobody knows why thefairies didn't want it to have a
roof and I thought well,obviously I know why the fairies
didn't want it to have a roof.
It's because the first time theysaw it it had no roof.
(29:15):
So as far as they wereconcerned, it shouldn't have a
roof, because if it was going tohave a roof it would have a
roof, but it didn't have a roof,so it shouldn't have a roof.
And I then started thinking youknow what?
I live in a home where there ismore than one way of thinking
about what's important, and ifyou live together as a loving
(29:35):
family, you have to learn to seethe funny side of each other.
And so that in the end turnsinto an inspiration.
Because I think it took.
I think my writing became morecomical after my son was born,
because sometimes you just haveto acknowledge.
You know what?
(29:56):
Sometimes I think your rulesare silly.
Clearly, sometimes you think myrules are silly.
The two of us banter a lot.
I mean, you cannot persuade anall-DHD child to see things your
way and you will make both ofyou unhappy if you try.
You have to learn to acceptthat we have very different ways
(30:16):
of looking at things and we'regoing to love each other as
different people.
I think that taught me a kindof playfulness and an amusedness
, and I think my more recentbooks have a kind of amused
mother tone to them.
Finbarre Snarey (30:32):
I like that idea of that that slight world
weariness, just with an extrazest of glee.
That sounds wonderful.
Kit Whitfield (30:42):
And an extra zest of you know what the world can
be as silly as you want it to be.
I mean, I hope my books don'tread as completely silly, but
certainly when you're coming upwith ideas, the willingness to
be silly is an absolutely vitalcreative element, because that's
where creative energy comesfrom.
So I think yeah, I think a bigthing I learned from my son is a
(31:05):
willingness to be silly andbeing unselfconscious, because
he is not self-conscious, he isabsolutely himself at all times
and there's a tremendousjoyfulness in that.
Finbarre Snarey (31:22):
And these are the moments where I regret
having an audio podcast, becauseI can see that big beaming
smile that you currently haveright now.
Kit Whitfield (31:30):
Oh, I'm thinking about my son.
Finbarre Snarey (31:34):
Has your son shown any interest in possibly
writing, or is this somethingthat mum does?
Kit Whitfield (31:41):
He has a language disorder, so he certainly has
an interest in, and he has a lotof.
Do you know what echolalia is?
Finbarre Snarey (31:50):
I don't, but it's an amazing word in Scrabble
.
What's it mean?
Kit Whitfield (31:53):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with
echolalia, couldn't you?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you couldreally win with echolalia,
couldn't you?
Echolalia is the impulse torepeat exactly what you have
heard for the satisfaction ofsaying it, or possibly the
compulsion to say it, ratherthan because it conveys any
meaning.
If I say, please stop, that isdriving me crazy.
(32:14):
That doesn't work.
The best I can do is say, couldyou repeat a different phrase
now, please?
Because for him it's a verystrong drive.
So you know he will writethings for the satisfaction, but
it's like CBeebies fan fiction.
I would say he's a very goodartist.
He's a very good paper crafter.
He makes little animations.
I would also say he's a verycreative quoter.
(32:36):
For a long time, because he washaving difficulty learning
language, he would use quotes toexpress himself because he
didn't quite have the phrasehimself.
So, for example, a couple offavorites One time I was making
him put his backpack on, whichhe didn't feel like doing, and
when I insisted he quoted a TVshow about pirates for kids and
(32:58):
said I'll get you back for thisswashbucklers.
He didn't mean he was going toget me back, he was just like
I'm not pleased with you rightnow mummy, I was like, okay,
fair enough.
But my absolute favorite wasthis show called Chuggington,
which is a kind of like latterday Thomas the Tank Engine.
It's about trains who arethey're trainees, they're
learning to do various roles.
(33:20):
He and I were walking down thestreet we ran into a neighbor.
She and I had a friendly chat.
He went shy, he didn't feellike talking to her.
When we finished we walked downthe street and I said to him
that's a very nice lady, youknow.
I think maybe next time youmeet her you might like to say
hello to her, because she's avery nice lady.
And my son, absolutely catchingme at what I was trying to do,
(33:44):
said in the exact Chuggingtonvoice I'm fine, Stop fussing, I
don't want to go to the repairshed.
And I just thought, yeah, yeah,fair cop, I was trying to take
you to the repair shed, I wastrying to change something and
you know what?
I'm going to drop it becauseyou've got me fair and square on
that one, what he's able to do.
But what I would say is thatfor him, language is his second
(34:06):
language.
His first language is visual orsensory, but he's always going
to speak English as if helearned it as an adult, I think,
(34:28):
but you can be very creativewithin that.
Finbarre Snarey (34:31):
It's clear to see where that spark of
inventiveness comes from.
One very quick last thing thatI'm taking from the last card,
the Knight of Pentacles there is.
We're talking about the idea ofgoing at a long project for an
extended period of time.
When do you find the time towrite around your parenting
responsibilities?
Do you write into the middle ofthe night?
(34:52):
Is it something you do here andthere in a cafe, on the bus?
Kit Whitfield (34:56):
I do it when he's at school, basically, and I
mean I also do freelance writingprojects, just, you know, to
make extra money under a penname or under several pen names.
I do it when he's at school.
And I mean in terms oflong-term writing projects,
writing a novel is a long-termwriting project in and of itself
(35:16):
.
It's a big feat of memory pasta certain point.
I think of it as like playingchess against yourself.
In the beginning of it, youhave to set up the pieces such
that you can launch a goodattack on the story and then
finally you get to the end gamewhere suddenly now you are
(35:38):
playing against your former selfand you're trying to beat the
game that you've laid out.
I mean, some people are plannersand some people are improvisers
, and I am absolutely animproviser and this kind of
means there's an enduranceproject in every day not going
(35:59):
okay, I'm just an idiot, I donot know what I'm doing.
Um, because if you are animproviser, the challenge is to
sit down every day, knowing youdon't know what you're doing,
and do it until you finallyfigure it out yeah, that's uh.
Finbarre Snarey (36:17):
I'm just trying to think of what I would do in
your shoes, and hats off to you.
I can't imagine how it must beto maintain an entire world or
the lore that's attached to thatworld, and then the characters
that are attached to that world,and there is just another plane
of existence.
Kit Whitfield (36:34):
How do you do it?
Well, I mean the guy for booksin particular, I would.
It's not very dignified, but Iwould by now describe those
characters as imaginary friends.
You know, I and I think thething is in an imaginary world
you can.
You can give yourself thingsthat the world does not give you
.
So, for example, I believe inwriting happy endings.
(36:57):
I, you know people can, partlybecause it's narratively fun to
contrive, it's an interestingchallenge.
But also I just kind of feelyou know what the world's hard
enough.
You know, when I was young andcarefree I would read sad
endings.
But now I just feel you knowwhat, there is a virtue in
cheering people up, because ifpeople have to go out into the
(37:20):
world and fight for what's right, keeping your strength up with
fiction, and the thing is alsosomething that cheers you up
does not have to be light andinsubstantial, it can be.
And if people like reading Iremember a friend calling a book
that she read like cappuccinofroth and she said this as a
virtue.
And if people like cappuccinofroth and she said this like as
(37:41):
a virtue, and you know peoplelike cappuccino froth, great,
you know, absolutely it.
You know, if it sparks joy,enjoy it.
But happy stories, they don'thave to be less meaningful
because they're not sad.
I feel that there's a certainlike determination not to give
up.
That goes with writing happyendings.
Well, kit whitfield, I willraise a glass of champagne.
Finbarre Snarey (37:55):
Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll
raise it anyway to happy endings.
Well, kit Whitfield, I willraise a glass of champagne.
Actually, it's just a mug ofwater, but I'll raise it anyway
to happy endings and have to saythank you.
A bottle of water to you.
Thank you so much for joiningus on Tarot Interviews today.
Absolute pleasure.
Kit Whitfield (38:09):
Thank you for having me.
Finbarre Snarey (38:10):
That was Kit Whitfield in Tarot Interviews,
bringing us into a world wherefantasy doesn't escape reality
but reframes it with clarity,compassion and just the right
hint of strangeness.
You can find her novels wherebooks are sold, including
Bareback in Great Waters and theGuyford series.
Be sure to follow the link inthe episode description for more
of her work.
And, as always, thank you forlistening and join me, Fin, for
(38:33):
the next episode.
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