May 10, 2025 • 33 mins
Shame—we all feel it, but few of us understand its profound impact on our lives and relationships. In this eye-opening episode, Dr. Chris introduces us to the critical distinction between healthy shame (a natural emotional boundary) and toxic shame (the devastating belief that we are fundamentally flawed and unworthy of connection).
Drawing from John Bradshaw's groundbreaking work and her own expertise working with teen mothers, Dr. Chris reveals how toxic shame first emerges within the family system through three key dynamics: growing up with a shame-based parent, experiencing abandonment, or enduring repeated violence and abuse. For teen mothers, this pre-existing shame is often intensified by societal judgment during pregnancy, creating layers of emotional wounding that affect their ability to parent effectively.
The statistics Dr. Chris shares are staggering: up to 82% of teen mothers report disturbing memories from stressful past experiences, 79% feel depressed or hopeless, and a heartbreaking 61% have had thoughts about self-harm. These numbers aren't just data points—they reflect the lived reality of thousands of young women carrying the burden of toxic shame.
But there's profound hope in this message. Dr. Chris vulnerably shares her own journey with toxic shame, including her recent realization about how perfectionism has been her hiding place. Through her story of raising her son as a single mother—and the beautiful validation she recently received from a community elder—we glimpse what healing looks like when we confront our shame and find supportive communities where we can be our authentic selves.
This episode is the first in a powerful five-part series designed to help teen mothers and women who were teen mothers recognize, expose, and ultimately heal the toxic shame that has kept them bound. Whether you're a teen mother, someone who works with young parents, or simply someone struggling with feelings of unworthiness, this conversation offers the compassionate understanding and practical wisdom needed to begin the journey toward emotional freedom.
Connect with us at teammomsA.org or on social media @TeenMomsAnonymous to join our supportive community and continue your healing journey.
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Speaker 1 (00:25):
Everyone thanks for tuning into our Teen Moms
Anonymous podcast.
We are a podcast for teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
moms, especially those whosurvived violence and abuse.
Our focus is on emotionalhealth and wellness, because we
know that emotionally healthymothers are better equipped to
nurture the emotionaldevelopment of their children.
(00:46):
I'm your host, Dr.
Chris Stroble, founder of TeenMoms Anonymous, a ministry for
teen moms and adult mothers whowere teen moms, and the
award-winning author of HelpingTeen Moms Graduate Strategies
for Family, schools andCommunity Organizations.
Today is part one of afive-part series entitled
(01:07):
Healing the Shame that Binds you.
Today, I will discuss the twotypes of shame healthy and toxic
shame.
I'll discuss how healthy shameis transformed into toxic shame
and then I'll share my personalexperience with toxic shame.
For this series, I'mreferencing the award-winning
book Helping Teen Moms Graduateand a classic recovery text by
(01:31):
John Bradshaw called Healing theShame that Binds you.
Counselor, motivational speakerand author who hosted a number
of PBS television programs ontopics such as addiction
recovery, codependency andspirituality.
In this series, as with all ourshows, the content is for
(01:56):
informational purposes only.
If you feel you need to talk tosomeone, please consult a
medical doctor or licensedprofessional counselor.
If you are in an emergency,please dial 911 or go to your
nearest emergency room.
So let's get started.
John Bradshaw begins talkingabout healing the shame that
(02:17):
binds you by first explainingthat there are two types of
shame healthy and toxic shame.
Healthy shame is an emotion.
It's a boundary.
Healthy shame is a yellow lightwarning that lets us know our
limits.
It lets us know that we'rehuman, that we have made and
(02:37):
will make mistakes.
Healthy shame assures us thatwe are not good and that we need
help.
Healthy shame is nourishing.
It keeps us grounded.
Shame and vulnerabilityresearcher and author Brene
Brown describes toxic shame asthe intensely painful feeling or
(03:00):
experience, believing that weare flawed and therefore
unworthy of love and belonging.
Something we've experienced,done or failed to do makes us
unworthy of connection.
Toxic shame is dehumanizing.
It is excruciatingly painful.
It feels like a deep cut inside.
(03:23):
It feels like a deep cut inside.
So right now I'm going to talka little bit about the
experiences of teen momscollectively not one teen mom,
but collectively.
And something that would causea teen mom to feel toxic shame
is experiencing a teen pregnancy.
I mean, from my perspective, ateen pregnancy can be a
(03:45):
traumatic experience because youfeel helpless to change your
situation.
And that is what trauma is.
You feel helpless, it's fightor flight.
You freeze, you can't doanything and, in terms of toxic
shame, as a teen mom, if youfelt judged during your
pregnancy, then you felt toxicshame, because judgment and
(04:06):
toxic shame go hand in hand.
I have interacted with teen momsand discovered that so many are
emotionally wounded, and thisis years after their teen
pregnancy.
I will never forget the pain ofthe young mothers I interviewed
for my book Helping Teen MomsGraduate.
They had all experienced a teenpregnancy and graduated from
(04:29):
high school and at the time ofthe interview they were in
college.
Two of them were actual collegegraduates.
I wanted to know theirexperience.
How did they do it?
My goal was to share thefindings, to help more teen moms
graduate, because currentlyonly 50% of teen moms earn high
school diploma, and that isexactly what I did in my
(04:50):
award-winning book Helping TeenMoms Graduate.
The interview was veryemotional for several of them
and I remember two participantsbroke down crying.
I had to pause the interview tocomfort one young mother I mean
, clearly they were emotionallywounded.
Another young mother she hadfinished college and actually
(05:12):
just graduated from pharmacyschool After we finished the
interview I remember we weresitting at the kitchen table.
She said that was good, as ifit was cathartic for her to tell
her story was good, as if itwas cathartic for her to tell
her story.
And part of the journey ofhealing our toxic shame is
telling our story.
But you have to tell your storyto safe people.
(05:32):
That interview was a safe spacefor them to tell what happened
to them and it helped them, Ibelieve, just as much as it
helped their peers who have readthe book Helping Teen Moms
Graduate, because teen moms areconsumed with toxic shame, they
(05:55):
don't feel safe or that theyhave rights to express their
true, real feelings.
Consider this research on thenegative feelings that many teen
moms feel, and these numbersare staggering and very alarming
.
And this is found in the bookHelping Teen Moms Graduate on
page 16.
This data was collected duringa study by the National Women's
(06:15):
Law Center and these are teenmoms who reported negative
feelings and these are theactual feelings.
So 74% felt bad aboutthemselves or were a failure and
let everyone down.
75% is staggering.
79% felt down or depressed orhopeless.
(06:37):
82% had repeated disturbingmemories, thoughts or images of
a stressful experience fromtheir past.
I mean, that's alarming 72%felt afraid, as if something
awful would happen, 82% feltangry about how they were
(06:59):
treated and 61% had thoughtsthat they would be better off
dead or hurting themselves.
Now those numbers arestaggering, and what those
mothers are dealing with istoxic shame, and you know they
don't feel like they're goodenough.
They suppress their emotionsbecause they're having to hide
(07:20):
their real, true self, and soyou may feel like many of these,
the teen mothers in that study,and also, if you want to know
if you're struggling with toxicshame, another handout that I
actually put this on our socialmedia so you can go there.
But these are eight signs thatyou're struggling with toxic
shame.
Number one you think you don'tdeserve good things.
(07:44):
You are too hard on yourselffor small mistakes.
You avoid opening up to others.
You say yes to everyone just toavoid upsetting them.
You feel guilty all the time,even when it's not your fault.
You hide your true self becauseyou fear being judged.
You always feel bad aboutyourself and, finally, you feel
(08:08):
nervous, anxious or on edge.
A lot.
Behind all of these negativeemotions, this pit of anger,
frustration and feeling badabout themselves, teen moms have
repressed their real true self.
What they're experiencing istoxic shame, and to survive
(08:29):
often their very chaotic familyenvironment, they've had to take
on a false, codependent self.
They've had to hide, cover uptheir shame.
For many, this is a survivaltactic.
So then, your first experiencewith toxic shame might have been
your teen pregnancy, and youfelt that.
(08:49):
But John Bradshaw, in his book,argues that toxic shame first
develops in the family system.
He says that toxic shamehappens first in the family
system, and this involves threedynamics A child grows up with a
shame-based parent, child isabandoned by a parent, and a
child is repeatedly exposed to,and has the repeated memory of,
(09:12):
violence and abuse.
So I'll look at each of thesedynamics one at a time.
A child grows up with ashame-based parent.
The first dynamic that inducestoxic shame is when a child
grows up with a shame-basedparent, and this is most often
our mother.
A shame-based mother is likethe teen mothers I interviewed.
(09:35):
She's like the teen mothers whowere part of that survey, who
had suppressed all they trulyfelt and were hiding their toxic
shame.
A shame-based mother is notfree to be her real, true self,
so she is not free to actlovingly with her child.
She's consumed with so muchguilt and shame and shame-based
(09:58):
parents, they transfer the toxicshame to their child, really
not realizing how they do that.
But here's how.
Parenting involves a lot ofmodeling of appropriate
behaviors.
I mean parenting is a lot ofteaching.
Parents must model healthybehaviors for their child so
(10:19):
their child can have healthyrelationships in their future
and go on to thrive in life.
Well, a shame-based mothercan't model healthy behaviors.
She can't model healthybehaviors like healthy
boundaries or healthy shame.
All she knows is toxic shame,so that's what she passes on.
Her toxic shame is hidingunderneath the way she interacts
(10:41):
with her child.
So maybe she lets the child cryand not comfort them.
And this is because she doesn'tfeel open and free enough to be
loving and happy and play withher child.
I mean, she's just trying tosurvive.
And so maybe she lets the babycry a lot and not comfort him,
(11:02):
and that's not good for a child.
But her family may be of thatschool of thought that says just
let the baby cry becausepicking him up will spoil the
child.
Well, you cannot spoil a child.
Also, maybe she shames herchild for having certain
emotions because she can'tregulate her own emotions.
With these unhealthyinteractions the child begins to
(11:25):
internalize toxic shame andbelieves something must be wrong
with them.
Otherwise why would my mothertreat me like this?
This is the beginning ofdeveloping toxic shame.
So then, what's your experiencewith toxic shame in your
childhood?
Did you grow up with ashame-based mother?
Did she model toxic shame infront of you?
(11:48):
It's likely you developed toxicshame.
If that happened and it'slikely is because toxic shame is
multi-generational.
So what this means is yourmother may have been a
shame-based mother.
Her mother may have been ashame-based mother.
(12:11):
Her mother's mother may havebeen shame-based, because toxic
shame is passed down fromgeneration to generation and,
just as Mark Wolynn says in hisNational Book Award winning book
, it didn't start with you.
This is inherited family trauma.
(12:31):
But while you inherited thistoxic shame, this does not have
to be the legacy that you leavefor your children.
You can begin to interrupt thismulti-generational cycle of
toxic shame.
You must heal your ownemotional wounds first so you
can then nurture the healthyemotional development of your
(12:52):
child, and this five-part seriesis all about helping you do
that, and all of our work hereat Teen Moms Anonymous is about
offering you resources,opportunities and information to
heal your own toxic shame first.
So this is the first dynamicwhere a child first develops
toxic shame in the family.
They grow up with a shame-basedparent.
(13:14):
The second dynamic where a childlearns toxic shame in the
family system is when a childexperiences the trauma of being
abandoned by a parent.
Abandonment is truly shamingfor a child and Bradshaw notes
that this abandonment could bethat the parent is physically
(13:35):
absent, or it could be theparent is physically present but
emotionally absent.
And either way physicallypresent but emotionally absent,
and either way abandonment isshaming for a child.
And a child internalizesabandonment and questions their
worth like what's wrong with me?
I must be the reason they left.
(13:55):
They internalize the pain oftheir mother or father leaving
them and this causes toxic shameto develop and they begin to
feel flawed and defective as ahuman being.
You know, something must bewrong with me.
Why am I not good enough?
And they hide the shame in manydestructive ways.
Because no one wants to talkabout shame.
(14:16):
And what toxic shame is doing?
It's killing us, it'sdestroying our children's lives,
and that's what toxic shamedoes.
And that's what it is it's lifedestroying.
So we have to get to a pointwhere, as Brene Brown says,
we're talking about shamebecause it's influencing the way
that we're parenting.
(14:38):
Abandoned by a parent, it's notjust, oh, my father was not in
my life, my mother was not in mylife.
It's what that abandonment doesto a child inside.
They internalize thatabandonment and they can't
figure it out.
So they stuff and suffocatetheir emotions, especially if
there's no one that they canreally share their real, true
(15:00):
feelings with.
So then their real, true selfgoes into hiding and what
emerges is a false self wherebythe child feels that they're
flawed and defective as a humanbeing.
And we have a generation ofyoung people who have been
abandoned, mainly by fathers,but some by mothers, and they
are consumed with toxic shame.
They're lost, they don't knowwho they are, they don't know
(15:23):
where they belong and, as afather, this is not the legacy
you want to leave for yourchildren, parents.
We must break this generationalcycle of abandoning children.
John Bradshaw further notes thatall forms of child abuse are
forms of abandonment.
When parents abuse children,the abuse is about the parents'
(15:46):
own issues, not the child.
This is wise abuse, the samewith abandonment.
When a parent abandons a child,it's the parents' own issues,
not the child.
And John Breckshaw continues towrite that abuse is abandonment
.
Because when a child, whenchildren, are abused, there's no
one there to help them.
They are alone and they beginto feel, as Brene Brown
(16:10):
describes, that intenselypainful feeling or experience of
believing that they are flawedand therefore unworthy of love
and belonging.
Something they have done,experienced or failed to do
makes them unworthy ofconnection, and this intensely
painful feeling of shame feelslike a cut deep within, and
(16:33):
toxic shame is dehumanizing andit destroys lives.
So now, what's your experiencewith abandonment?
Were you abandoned by a parent?
Was your father absent?
Was your mother absent?
Maybe they were physicallypresent, but emotionally absent.
If you were abandoned as achild, that trauma has caused
(16:54):
you to develop toxic shame.
And so this is the seconddynamic that happens first in
the family system that causes achild to develop toxic shame
being abandoned by parents.
The third dynamic where a childbegins to internalize toxic
shame is when a child isrepeatedly exposed to shaming
(17:17):
experiences like violence andabuse.
John Bradshaw writes that allabuse and violence induces shame
.
All abuse contributes to theinternalization of toxic shame.
He says that some kinds ofabuse are more intensely shaming
than others.
Sexual abuse, he says, is themost shaming form of abuse.
(17:37):
It takes less sexual abuse thanany other form of abuse to
induce shame.
This induced shame, as I'vesaid repeatedly, feels like a
deep cut inside the person whohas been abused stops being
their real, true self and afalse self emerges.
They become a frozen state ofbeing whereby they believe that
(18:02):
they're flawed and defective.
And John Bradshaw says thatphysical abuse is second only to
sexual abuse in terms of toxicshame.
So sexual and physical abuseare the most shaming of all
abuse.
So now consider the research onthe experiences of teen moms in
terms of their experience withviolence and abuse.
(18:24):
So let me say, each teen momhas her individual personal
story, but teen momscollectively share a tale of
violence and abuse.
And consider this research thatis noted in the award winning
book Helping Teen Moms, graduategraduate.
(18:46):
Many young women as many astwo-thirds who become pregnant
as teens, were sexually and arephysically abused at some point
in their lives, either aschildren, in their current
relationship or both.
And a substantial number nofewer than one-fourth, and as
many as 50 to 80 percent teenmothers are in violent, abusive
or coercive relationships justbefore, during and after their
(19:07):
teen pregnancy.
And so, as a teen mom or adultmother who was a teen mom,
consider your experience withviolence and abuse.
Is your story part of thatcollective story of a tale of
violence and abuse, the two mostshaming forms of abuse?
If so, that induced toxic shame.
(19:30):
And this kind of abuse is oftenkept secret, you know, keep it
in the family, and this silenceand secrecy is all the more
shaming for the teen mom and forsome teen moms.
The research showed that theyactually have to remain in an
unsafe environment and they areexposed to additional sexual
(19:50):
advances.
And you know this is also thecase because this abuse often
happens in the family, witheither a family member or a
close family friend.
So this is the third dynamicwhere a child develops toxic
shame in the family system bybeing repeatedly exposed to
shaming experiences likeviolence and sexual abuse,
(20:11):
whereby they begin to believethat they are flawed and
defective as a human being.
So now we know all of this howa child develops toxic shame in
the family system.
So now the question is how dowe heal this toxic shame?
Where do we begin?
The first step is awareness.
When listening to this podcast,you have just raised your
(20:32):
awareness of toxic shame.
You now have an awareness thattoxic shame is first developed
in the family system by way ofthree dynamics.
Child grows up with ashame-based parent.
Child is abandoned by a parent.
Child is repeatedly exposed toand has the memory of, shaming
experiences like violence andabuse.
(20:53):
All three of these dynamicscause a child to develop toxic
shame.
And, as John Bradshaw writes,toxic shame is true agony.
So after awareness, the nextstep is to recognize how you
have covered up and hidden yourtoxic shame, what toxic and life
(21:14):
destroying behaviors now aredeep inside of you that are
showing up in your behavior.
And so John Bradshaw identifiesseveral hiding places and
cover-ups of shame.
They include codependency,borderline personality disorder,
narcissism, and he says thatall addictions at the root of
(21:38):
that, of all addictions, isshame.
He argues that the core andfuel of all addiction is toxic
shame.
The addict is driven by thebelief that they are flawed.
Other cover-ups includeperfectionism, striving for
power and control, rage,arrogance, people-pleasing and
(21:59):
more.
And in part two of this seriesI will discuss these many hiding
places and cover-ups of toxicshame.
And once we recognize thehiding places and coverups of
toxic shame, and once werecognize the hiding places and
coverups of shame, we have toexpose shame, pull the covers
back, bring shame out of hidingand this is how we're going to
(22:20):
heal the shame that is bindingus.
And John Bradshaw writes thatthe best way to come out of
hiding is to find non-shamingintimate social networks.
For him it was AlcoholicsAnonymous, which he attributes
to saving his life.
That was his non-shamingintimate network.
In our Teen Moms Anonymousministry, our support groups are
(22:44):
non-shaming intimate networkswhere teen moms and adult
mothers who were teen moms cancome out of hiding and heal
their shame.
Exposing and healing our shamewill be discussed in parts three
, four, five of the series.
So make sure you listen to theentire series Healing the Shame
(23:04):
that Binds you.
So now my experience with toxicshame and how I've covered up my
toxic shame.
I have always felt toxic shame.
I write that in the preface ofmy latest book, quentin Moms
Graduate, that one of the twomost pronounced emotions or
feelings that surface when Ithink of my childhood is toxic
(23:28):
shame.
The other is emotional distress, which the two are connected.
If you feel shame that you'reflawed and defective inside,
that's excruciatingly painfuland that's emotional distress.
But as a child I always feltthat I wasn't good enough.
No one said anything, I justfelt that I was not good enough
(23:50):
and I could not be my real, trueself.
I grew up in a shame-basedfamily system.
That's what I saw.
That was shaming.
I didn't have a father that wasshaming.
I know the repeated violenceand abuse and I know having to
remain in an unsafe environment.
That was shaming.
All these three dynamics areinvolved in a child developing
(24:15):
toxic shame.
And it first happens in thefamily system.
And I'll tell you, I've had towork hard to heal my wounds.
I mean, it's been hard work.
I'm far enough on my journeynow that I can help others.
But even still, as I rereadJohn Bradshaw's book Healing the
Shame that Binds you and I'vehad this book for over 15 years
(24:38):
because that's how long I'vebeen working on my recovery but
even recently, when I read hisbook and preparing for this
podcast, I discovered anotherhiding place of my toxic shame,
and it's perfectionism.
Striving to be perfect, iswhere I have been hiding my
toxic shame.
(24:58):
But I just realized that it'sholding me hostage and that's
why I couldn't get anything done.
And that's why I couldn't getanything done.
And the other day, as I waspreparing this script, I was
sitting on the couch literallyhaving a conversation and I said
Chris, stop, stop trying to getthis script perfect, stop.
What you have is good.
(25:20):
Share what you have.
Someone doesn't know what toxicshame is.
Someone doesn't know what toxicshame is.
They don't understand what'sbehind that internal,
excruciating, painful feelingthat they have inside that feels
like a deep cut.
They don't know what that is.
So, share what you have.
Share what you know.
(25:41):
What you have and know isenough.
So as I'm preparing thesescripts for this series, I'm
just having to remind myself andshow myself some grace.
So, finally, for me, in termsof toxic shame and in terms of
the legacy that we leave for ourchildren, I've worked hard to
give my son the very best of meand it's been hard these last 16
(26:05):
years.
And you know, 16 years ago mygreatest fear was for my son.
I mean, I was frightened forhim, a Black boy growing up in
America without a father.
I didn't know how his lifewould turn out and it frightened
me.
But I told someone this lastyear my son and I are out of the
(26:27):
woods.
We're in a good place.
You know how, if you hadsurgery or something you know,
after surgery it's touch and go.
You're not really sure howthings are going to go.
And then three months, sixmonths later you go to the
doctor and he says you're out ofthe woods, you're good to go.
And that's where my son and Iare.
My son is a good boy.
(26:47):
He's respectful, he's kind, andjust this semester he's back in
public school.
Two of his teachers emailed mesaying what an awesome student
and young man he is.
And also just yesterday I got acard in the mail from my
mother's neighbor.
I mean, we grew up in the samecommunity, she's my elder, she's
(27:16):
a Ph.
D.
from our marginalized communityand she's so proud that I'm a
Ph.
D.
from our marginalized community.
Or recently I was confirmed inthe church that she brought me
to.
And this past Sunday, when myson and I went to take Holy
Eucharist, holy Communion, Inoticed her out of the side of
my eye and she was looking atand beaming with pride.
She was looking at me and myson and beaming with pride.
(27:38):
And just a few days later,yesterday, I got this beautiful
card in the mail from her.
And, granted, she she lives onestreet over, but she's of that
school of thought that lettersand graduation invitations
should be mailed, but this cardshe got me on the front.
It simply says you are amazing.
(27:59):
And inside she addresses me.
She says Christy, you know, inmy community I'm either Chris,
Chrissy or Christy.
But she says every day you showup, do your best and give it
your all, because that's whatgood moms do.
Happy Mother's Day.
And then she wrote You are afabulous mother! Christian will
(28:24):
be all right! And I had to holdback the tears because that's
been my focus to make sure thatmy son is all right and he is
just as she said Christian willbe all right.
So we all have struggles, we alldeal with toxic shame.
And once we recognize where ourtoxic shame is hiding, the next
(28:48):
step in processing is to healour shame, expose it, bring it
out of hiding, and I'll talkabout that through this series.
So, just to wrap things up,there are two types of shame
healthy shame, toxic shame.
Healthy shame is an emotionboundary.
It lets us know our limits.
It's a yellow warning lightthat lets us know we're human,
(29:11):
that we have made and will makemistakes.
It assures us that we're notGod and we need help.
Healthy shame is nourishing.
It keeps us grounded.
Toxic shame, shame andvulnerability researcher and
author Brene Brown describes asthe intensely painful feeling or
experience of believing thatwe're flawed and therefore
(29:33):
unworthy of love and belonging.
Something we've experienced,done or failed to do makes us
unworthy of connection and thattoxic shame is dehumanizing,
it's excruciatingly painful,feels like a cut deep and it is
destroying our lives.
Toxic shame first develops inthe family system and it
(29:54):
involves three dynamics A childgrows up with a shame-based
parent, a child is abandoned bya parent and a child is
repeatedly exposed to shamingexperiences like violence and
abuse.
Exposed to shaming, experienceslike violence and abuse.
All of these experiences in achild's life causes them to
develop toxic shame and theybegin to believe they're flawed
and defective as a human being.
(30:15):
But there is hope.
You can heal your toxic shame.
You have to expose it, bring itout of hiding, and John
Bradshaw says this is best donein a non-shaming intimate
network, and for him it wasAlcoholics Anonymous.
That was his non-shaming,intimate network that he credits
with saving his life.
(30:36):
Our Teen Moms Anonymous supportgroups are a non-shaming,
intimate network where teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
moms can talk about their shameand bring it out of hiding.
So this is our show for today.
Thanks for listening to ourTeen Moms Anonymous podcast.
We are a podcast for teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
(30:58):
moms, especially those whosurvived violence and abuse.
Our focus is on emotionalhealth and wellness, because we
know that emotionally healthymothers are better equipped to
nurture the emotionaldevelopment of their children.
I'm your host, Dr.
Chris Stroble, founder of TeenMoms Anonymous, a ministry for
(31:18):
teen moms and women who wereteen moms, and the award-winning
author of Helping Teen MomsGraduate Strategies for Family,
schools and CommunityOrganizations.
I hope this information hasbeen helpful to you.
If so, send us a message.
We'd love to hear fromlisteners.
Share with us your experiencewith shame.
(31:41):
You can email us at info atteammomsA.
org.
Again, you can email us at infoat teammomsA.
org, or you can visit ourwebsite, teammomsA.
org and fill out the contactform.
If you have questions or topicsyou want me to discuss, send
those to us as well, and I willaddress as many as I can in
(32:02):
future shows.
Finally, we are committed towalking alongside you on your
journey of healing youremotional wounds, so stay
connected to us.
Follow us on social mediaInstagram and Facebook at Team
Moms Anonymous, visit ourwebsite, team Moms A and
subscribe to our blog andpodcast.
(32:23):
If you're in the Greenville/Spartanburg area of South
Carolina, you can sign up forone of our local in-person
non-shaming support groups.
And let me say this right nowwe only offer in-person,
face-to-face support groups.
I have had agencies frommultiple states contact me about
(32:44):
online support groups, but atthis time we don't have the
infrastructure to ensure thesafety of our members, so we
can't offer online supportgroups.
When we have that capacity,that capability, then we will
and we'll be certain to let youknow, and that's another reason
to stay connected to us.
(33:04):
Again, we want to support youon your journey.
Stay connected to us on socialmedia and our website.
So thanks for listening to ourTeen Moms Anonymous podcast.
We'll see the next time.
Everyone thanks for tuning into our Teen Moms
Anonymous podcast.
We are a podcast for teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
moms, especially those whosurvived violence and abuse.
Our focus is on emotionalhealth and wellness, because we
know that emotionally healthymothers are better equipped to
nurture the emotionaldevelopment of their children.
(00:46):
I'm your host, Dr.
Chris Stroble, founder of TeenMoms Anonymous, a ministry for
teen moms and adult mothers whowere teen moms, and the
award-winning author of HelpingTeen Moms Graduate Strategies
for Family, schools andCommunity Organizations.
Today is part one of afive-part series entitled
(01:07):
Healing the Shame that Binds you.
Today, I will discuss the twotypes of shame healthy and toxic
shame.
I'll discuss how healthy shameis transformed into toxic shame
and then I'll share my personalexperience with toxic shame.
For this series, I'mreferencing the award-winning
book Helping Teen Moms Graduateand a classic recovery text by
(01:31):
John Bradshaw called Healing theShame that Binds you.
Counselor, motivational speakerand author who hosted a number
of PBS television programs ontopics such as addiction
recovery, codependency andspirituality.
In this series, as with all ourshows, the content is for
(01:56):
informational purposes only.
If you feel you need to talk tosomeone, please consult a
medical doctor or licensedprofessional counselor.
If you are in an emergency,please dial 911 or go to your
nearest emergency room.
So let's get started.
John Bradshaw begins talkingabout healing the shame that
(02:17):
binds you by first explainingthat there are two types of
shame healthy and toxic shame.
Healthy shame is an emotion.
It's a boundary.
Healthy shame is a yellow lightwarning that lets us know our
limits.
It lets us know that we'rehuman, that we have made and
(02:37):
will make mistakes.
Healthy shame assures us thatwe are not good and that we need
help.
Healthy shame is nourishing.
It keeps us grounded.
Shame and vulnerabilityresearcher and author Brene
Brown describes toxic shame asthe intensely painful feeling or
(03:00):
experience, believing that weare flawed and therefore
unworthy of love and belonging.
Something we've experienced,done or failed to do makes us
unworthy of connection.
Toxic shame is dehumanizing.
It is excruciatingly painful.
It feels like a deep cut inside.
(03:23):
It feels like a deep cut inside.
So right now I'm going to talka little bit about the
experiences of teen momscollectively not one teen mom,
but collectively.
And something that would causea teen mom to feel toxic shame
is experiencing a teen pregnancy.
I mean, from my perspective, ateen pregnancy can be a
(03:45):
traumatic experience because youfeel helpless to change your
situation.
And that is what trauma is.
You feel helpless, it's fightor flight.
You freeze, you can't doanything and, in terms of toxic
shame, as a teen mom, if youfelt judged during your
pregnancy, then you felt toxicshame, because judgment and
(04:06):
toxic shame go hand in hand.
I have interacted with teen momsand discovered that so many are
emotionally wounded, and thisis years after their teen
pregnancy.
I will never forget the pain ofthe young mothers I interviewed
for my book Helping Teen MomsGraduate.
They had all experienced a teenpregnancy and graduated from
(04:29):
high school and at the time ofthe interview they were in
college.
Two of them were actual collegegraduates.
I wanted to know theirexperience.
How did they do it?
My goal was to share thefindings, to help more teen moms
graduate, because currentlyonly 50% of teen moms earn high
school diploma, and that isexactly what I did in my
(04:50):
award-winning book Helping TeenMoms Graduate.
The interview was veryemotional for several of them
and I remember two participantsbroke down crying.
I had to pause the interview tocomfort one young mother I mean
, clearly they were emotionallywounded.
Another young mother she hadfinished college and actually
(05:12):
just graduated from pharmacyschool After we finished the
interview I remember we weresitting at the kitchen table.
She said that was good, as ifit was cathartic for her to tell
her story was good, as if itwas cathartic for her to tell
her story.
And part of the journey ofhealing our toxic shame is
telling our story.
But you have to tell your storyto safe people.
(05:32):
That interview was a safe spacefor them to tell what happened
to them and it helped them, Ibelieve, just as much as it
helped their peers who have readthe book Helping Teen Moms
Graduate, because teen moms areconsumed with toxic shame, they
(05:55):
don't feel safe or that theyhave rights to express their
true, real feelings.
Consider this research on thenegative feelings that many teen
moms feel, and these numbersare staggering and very alarming
.
And this is found in the bookHelping Teen Moms Graduate on
page 16.
This data was collected duringa study by the National Women's
(06:15):
Law Center and these are teenmoms who reported negative
feelings and these are theactual feelings.
So 74% felt bad aboutthemselves or were a failure and
let everyone down.
75% is staggering.
79% felt down or depressed orhopeless.
(06:37):
82% had repeated disturbingmemories, thoughts or images of
a stressful experience fromtheir past.
I mean, that's alarming 72%felt afraid, as if something
awful would happen, 82% feltangry about how they were
(06:59):
treated and 61% had thoughtsthat they would be better off
dead or hurting themselves.
Now those numbers arestaggering, and what those
mothers are dealing with istoxic shame, and you know they
don't feel like they're goodenough.
They suppress their emotionsbecause they're having to hide
(07:20):
their real, true self, and soyou may feel like many of these,
the teen mothers in that study,and also, if you want to know
if you're struggling with toxicshame, another handout that I
actually put this on our socialmedia so you can go there.
But these are eight signs thatyou're struggling with toxic
shame.
Number one you think you don'tdeserve good things.
(07:44):
You are too hard on yourselffor small mistakes.
You avoid opening up to others.
You say yes to everyone just toavoid upsetting them.
You feel guilty all the time,even when it's not your fault.
You hide your true self becauseyou fear being judged.
You always feel bad aboutyourself and, finally, you feel
(08:08):
nervous, anxious or on edge.
A lot.
Behind all of these negativeemotions, this pit of anger,
frustration and feeling badabout themselves, teen moms have
repressed their real true self.
What they're experiencing istoxic shame, and to survive
(08:29):
often their very chaotic familyenvironment, they've had to take
on a false, codependent self.
They've had to hide, cover uptheir shame.
For many, this is a survivaltactic.
So then, your first experiencewith toxic shame might have been
your teen pregnancy, and youfelt that.
(08:49):
But John Bradshaw, in his book,argues that toxic shame first
develops in the family system.
He says that toxic shamehappens first in the family
system, and this involves threedynamics A child grows up with a
shame-based parent, child isabandoned by a parent, and a
child is repeatedly exposed to,and has the repeated memory of,
(09:12):
violence and abuse.
So I'll look at each of thesedynamics one at a time.
A child grows up with ashame-based parent.
The first dynamic that inducestoxic shame is when a child
grows up with a shame-basedparent, and this is most often
our mother.
A shame-based mother is likethe teen mothers I interviewed.
(09:35):
She's like the teen mothers whowere part of that survey, who
had suppressed all they trulyfelt and were hiding their toxic
shame.
A shame-based mother is notfree to be her real, true self,
so she is not free to actlovingly with her child.
She's consumed with so muchguilt and shame and shame-based
(09:58):
parents, they transfer the toxicshame to their child, really
not realizing how they do that.
But here's how.
Parenting involves a lot ofmodeling of appropriate
behaviors.
I mean parenting is a lot ofteaching.
Parents must model healthybehaviors for their child so
(10:19):
their child can have healthyrelationships in their future
and go on to thrive in life.
Well, a shame-based mothercan't model healthy behaviors.
She can't model healthybehaviors like healthy
boundaries or healthy shame.
All she knows is toxic shame,so that's what she passes on.
Her toxic shame is hidingunderneath the way she interacts
(10:41):
with her child.
So maybe she lets the child cryand not comfort them.
And this is because she doesn'tfeel open and free enough to be
loving and happy and play withher child.
I mean, she's just trying tosurvive.
And so maybe she lets the babycry a lot and not comfort him,
(11:02):
and that's not good for a child.
But her family may be of thatschool of thought that says just
let the baby cry becausepicking him up will spoil the
child.
Well, you cannot spoil a child.
Also, maybe she shames herchild for having certain
emotions because she can'tregulate her own emotions.
With these unhealthyinteractions the child begins to
(11:25):
internalize toxic shame andbelieves something must be wrong
with them.
Otherwise why would my mothertreat me like this?
This is the beginning ofdeveloping toxic shame.
So then, what's your experiencewith toxic shame in your
childhood?
Did you grow up with ashame-based mother?
Did she model toxic shame infront of you?
(11:48):
It's likely you developed toxicshame.
If that happened and it'slikely is because toxic shame is
multi-generational.
So what this means is yourmother may have been a
shame-based mother.
Her mother may have been ashame-based mother.
(12:11):
Her mother's mother may havebeen shame-based, because toxic
shame is passed down fromgeneration to generation and,
just as Mark Wolynn says in hisNational Book Award winning book
, it didn't start with you.
This is inherited family trauma.
(12:31):
But while you inherited thistoxic shame, this does not have
to be the legacy that you leavefor your children.
You can begin to interrupt thismulti-generational cycle of
toxic shame.
You must heal your ownemotional wounds first so you
can then nurture the healthyemotional development of your
(12:52):
child, and this five-part seriesis all about helping you do
that, and all of our work hereat Teen Moms Anonymous is about
offering you resources,opportunities and information to
heal your own toxic shame first.
So this is the first dynamicwhere a child first develops
toxic shame in the family.
They grow up with a shame-basedparent.
(13:14):
The second dynamic where a childlearns toxic shame in the
family system is when a childexperiences the trauma of being
abandoned by a parent.
Abandonment is truly shamingfor a child and Bradshaw notes
that this abandonment could bethat the parent is physically
(13:35):
absent, or it could be theparent is physically present but
emotionally absent.
And either way physicallypresent but emotionally absent,
and either way abandonment isshaming for a child.
And a child internalizesabandonment and questions their
worth like what's wrong with me?
I must be the reason they left.
(13:55):
They internalize the pain oftheir mother or father leaving
them and this causes toxic shameto develop and they begin to
feel flawed and defective as ahuman being.
You know, something must bewrong with me.
Why am I not good enough?
And they hide the shame in manydestructive ways.
Because no one wants to talkabout shame.
(14:16):
And what toxic shame is doing?
It's killing us, it'sdestroying our children's lives,
and that's what toxic shamedoes.
And that's what it is it's lifedestroying.
So we have to get to a pointwhere, as Brene Brown says,
we're talking about shamebecause it's influencing the way
that we're parenting.
(14:38):
Abandoned by a parent, it's notjust, oh, my father was not in
my life, my mother was not in mylife.
It's what that abandonment doesto a child inside.
They internalize thatabandonment and they can't
figure it out.
So they stuff and suffocatetheir emotions, especially if
there's no one that they canreally share their real, true
(15:00):
feelings with.
So then their real, true selfgoes into hiding and what
emerges is a false self wherebythe child feels that they're
flawed and defective as a humanbeing.
And we have a generation ofyoung people who have been
abandoned, mainly by fathers,but some by mothers, and they
are consumed with toxic shame.
They're lost, they don't knowwho they are, they don't know
(15:23):
where they belong and, as afather, this is not the legacy
you want to leave for yourchildren, parents.
We must break this generationalcycle of abandoning children.
John Bradshaw further notes thatall forms of child abuse are
forms of abandonment.
When parents abuse children,the abuse is about the parents'
(15:46):
own issues, not the child.
This is wise abuse, the samewith abandonment.
When a parent abandons a child,it's the parents' own issues,
not the child.
And John Breckshaw continues towrite that abuse is abandonment
.
Because when a child, whenchildren, are abused, there's no
one there to help them.
They are alone and they beginto feel, as Brene Brown
(16:10):
describes, that intenselypainful feeling or experience of
believing that they are flawedand therefore unworthy of love
and belonging.
Something they have done,experienced or failed to do
makes them unworthy ofconnection, and this intensely
painful feeling of shame feelslike a cut deep within, and
(16:33):
toxic shame is dehumanizing andit destroys lives.
So now, what's your experiencewith abandonment?
Were you abandoned by a parent?
Was your father absent?
Was your mother absent?
Maybe they were physicallypresent, but emotionally absent.
If you were abandoned as achild, that trauma has caused
(16:54):
you to develop toxic shame.
And so this is the seconddynamic that happens first in
the family system that causes achild to develop toxic shame
being abandoned by parents.
The third dynamic where a childbegins to internalize toxic
shame is when a child isrepeatedly exposed to shaming
(17:17):
experiences like violence andabuse.
John Bradshaw writes that allabuse and violence induces shame
.
All abuse contributes to theinternalization of toxic shame.
He says that some kinds ofabuse are more intensely shaming
than others.
Sexual abuse, he says, is themost shaming form of abuse.
(17:37):
It takes less sexual abuse thanany other form of abuse to
induce shame.
This induced shame, as I'vesaid repeatedly, feels like a
deep cut inside the person whohas been abused stops being
their real, true self and afalse self emerges.
They become a frozen state ofbeing whereby they believe that
(18:02):
they're flawed and defective.
And John Bradshaw says thatphysical abuse is second only to
sexual abuse in terms of toxicshame.
So sexual and physical abuseare the most shaming of all
abuse.
So now consider the research onthe experiences of teen moms in
terms of their experience withviolence and abuse.
(18:24):
So let me say, each teen momhas her individual personal
story, but teen momscollectively share a tale of
violence and abuse.
And consider this research thatis noted in the award winning
book Helping Teen Moms, graduategraduate.
(18:46):
Many young women as many astwo-thirds who become pregnant
as teens, were sexually and arephysically abused at some point
in their lives, either aschildren, in their current
relationship or both.
And a substantial number nofewer than one-fourth, and as
many as 50 to 80 percent teenmothers are in violent, abusive
or coercive relationships justbefore, during and after their
(19:07):
teen pregnancy.
And so, as a teen mom or adultmother who was a teen mom,
consider your experience withviolence and abuse.
Is your story part of thatcollective story of a tale of
violence and abuse, the two mostshaming forms of abuse?
If so, that induced toxic shame.
(19:30):
And this kind of abuse is oftenkept secret, you know, keep it
in the family, and this silenceand secrecy is all the more
shaming for the teen mom and forsome teen moms.
The research showed that theyactually have to remain in an
unsafe environment and they areexposed to additional sexual
(19:50):
advances.
And you know this is also thecase because this abuse often
happens in the family, witheither a family member or a
close family friend.
So this is the third dynamicwhere a child develops toxic
shame in the family system bybeing repeatedly exposed to
shaming experiences likeviolence and sexual abuse,
(20:11):
whereby they begin to believethat they are flawed and
defective as a human being.
So now we know all of this howa child develops toxic shame in
the family system.
So now the question is how dowe heal this toxic shame?
Where do we begin?
The first step is awareness.
When listening to this podcast,you have just raised your
(20:32):
awareness of toxic shame.
You now have an awareness thattoxic shame is first developed
in the family system by way ofthree dynamics.
Child grows up with ashame-based parent.
Child is abandoned by a parent.
Child is repeatedly exposed toand has the memory of, shaming
experiences like violence andabuse.
(20:53):
All three of these dynamicscause a child to develop toxic
shame.
And, as John Bradshaw writes,toxic shame is true agony.
So after awareness, the nextstep is to recognize how you
have covered up and hidden yourtoxic shame, what toxic and life
(21:14):
destroying behaviors now aredeep inside of you that are
showing up in your behavior.
And so John Bradshaw identifiesseveral hiding places and
cover-ups of shame.
They include codependency,borderline personality disorder,
narcissism, and he says thatall addictions at the root of
(21:38):
that, of all addictions, isshame.
He argues that the core andfuel of all addiction is toxic
shame.
The addict is driven by thebelief that they are flawed.
Other cover-ups includeperfectionism, striving for
power and control, rage,arrogance, people-pleasing and
(21:59):
more.
And in part two of this seriesI will discuss these many hiding
places and cover-ups of toxicshame.
And once we recognize thehiding places and coverups of
toxic shame, and once werecognize the hiding places and
coverups of shame, we have toexpose shame, pull the covers
back, bring shame out of hidingand this is how we're going to
(22:20):
heal the shame that is bindingus.
And John Bradshaw writes thatthe best way to come out of
hiding is to find non-shamingintimate social networks.
For him it was AlcoholicsAnonymous, which he attributes
to saving his life.
That was his non-shamingintimate network.
In our Teen Moms Anonymousministry, our support groups are
(22:44):
non-shaming intimate networkswhere teen moms and adult
mothers who were teen moms cancome out of hiding and heal
their shame.
Exposing and healing our shamewill be discussed in parts three
, four, five of the series.
So make sure you listen to theentire series Healing the Shame
(23:04):
that Binds you.
So now my experience with toxicshame and how I've covered up my
toxic shame.
I have always felt toxic shame.
I write that in the preface ofmy latest book, quentin Moms
Graduate, that one of the twomost pronounced emotions or
feelings that surface when Ithink of my childhood is toxic
(23:28):
shame.
The other is emotional distress, which the two are connected.
If you feel shame that you'reflawed and defective inside,
that's excruciatingly painfuland that's emotional distress.
But as a child I always feltthat I wasn't good enough.
No one said anything, I justfelt that I was not good enough
(23:50):
and I could not be my real, trueself.
I grew up in a shame-basedfamily system.
That's what I saw.
That was shaming.
I didn't have a father that wasshaming.
I know the repeated violenceand abuse and I know having to
remain in an unsafe environment.
That was shaming.
All these three dynamics areinvolved in a child developing
(24:15):
toxic shame.
And it first happens in thefamily system.
And I'll tell you, I've had towork hard to heal my wounds.
I mean, it's been hard work.
I'm far enough on my journeynow that I can help others.
But even still, as I rereadJohn Bradshaw's book Healing the
Shame that Binds you and I'vehad this book for over 15 years
(24:38):
because that's how long I'vebeen working on my recovery but
even recently, when I read hisbook and preparing for this
podcast, I discovered anotherhiding place of my toxic shame,
and it's perfectionism.
Striving to be perfect, iswhere I have been hiding my
toxic shame.
(24:58):
But I just realized that it'sholding me hostage and that's
why I couldn't get anything done.
And that's why I couldn't getanything done.
And the other day, as I waspreparing this script, I was
sitting on the couch literallyhaving a conversation and I said
Chris, stop, stop trying to getthis script perfect, stop.
What you have is good.
(25:20):
Share what you have.
Someone doesn't know what toxicshame is.
Someone doesn't know what toxicshame is.
They don't understand what'sbehind that internal,
excruciating, painful feelingthat they have inside that feels
like a deep cut.
They don't know what that is.
So, share what you have.
Share what you know.
(25:41):
What you have and know isenough.
So as I'm preparing thesescripts for this series, I'm
just having to remind myself andshow myself some grace.
So, finally, for me, in termsof toxic shame and in terms of
the legacy that we leave for ourchildren, I've worked hard to
give my son the very best of meand it's been hard these last 16
(26:05):
years.
And you know, 16 years ago mygreatest fear was for my son.
I mean, I was frightened forhim, a Black boy growing up in
America without a father.
I didn't know how his lifewould turn out and it frightened
me.
But I told someone this lastyear my son and I are out of the
(26:27):
woods.
We're in a good place.
You know how, if you hadsurgery or something you know,
after surgery it's touch and go.
You're not really sure howthings are going to go.
And then three months, sixmonths later you go to the
doctor and he says you're out ofthe woods, you're good to go.
And that's where my son and Iare.
My son is a good boy.
(26:47):
He's respectful, he's kind, andjust this semester he's back in
public school.
Two of his teachers emailed mesaying what an awesome student
and young man he is.
And also just yesterday I got acard in the mail from my
mother's neighbor.
I mean, we grew up in the samecommunity, she's my elder, she's
(27:16):
a Ph.
D.
from our marginalized communityand she's so proud that I'm a
Ph.
D.
from our marginalized community.
Or recently I was confirmed inthe church that she brought me
to.
And this past Sunday, when myson and I went to take Holy
Eucharist, holy Communion, Inoticed her out of the side of
my eye and she was looking atand beaming with pride.
She was looking at me and myson and beaming with pride.
(27:38):
And just a few days later,yesterday, I got this beautiful
card in the mail from her.
And, granted, she she lives onestreet over, but she's of that
school of thought that lettersand graduation invitations
should be mailed, but this cardshe got me on the front.
It simply says you are amazing.
(27:59):
And inside she addresses me.
She says Christy, you know, inmy community I'm either Chris,
Chrissy or Christy.
But she says every day you showup, do your best and give it
your all, because that's whatgood moms do.
Happy Mother's Day.
And then she wrote You are afabulous mother! Christian will
(28:24):
be all right! And I had to holdback the tears because that's
been my focus to make sure thatmy son is all right and he is
just as she said Christian willbe all right.
So we all have struggles, we alldeal with toxic shame.
And once we recognize where ourtoxic shame is hiding, the next
(28:48):
step in processing is to healour shame, expose it, bring it
out of hiding, and I'll talkabout that through this series.
So, just to wrap things up,there are two types of shame
healthy shame, toxic shame.
Healthy shame is an emotionboundary.
It lets us know our limits.
It's a yellow warning lightthat lets us know we're human,
(29:11):
that we have made and will makemistakes.
It assures us that we're notGod and we need help.
Healthy shame is nourishing.
It keeps us grounded.
Toxic shame, shame andvulnerability researcher and
author Brene Brown describes asthe intensely painful feeling or
experience of believing thatwe're flawed and therefore
(29:33):
unworthy of love and belonging.
Something we've experienced,done or failed to do makes us
unworthy of connection and thattoxic shame is dehumanizing,
it's excruciatingly painful,feels like a cut deep and it is
destroying our lives.
Toxic shame first develops inthe family system and it
(29:54):
involves three dynamics A childgrows up with a shame-based
parent, a child is abandoned bya parent and a child is
repeatedly exposed to shamingexperiences like violence and
abuse.
Exposed to shaming, experienceslike violence and abuse.
All of these experiences in achild's life causes them to
develop toxic shame and theybegin to believe they're flawed
and defective as a human being.
(30:15):
But there is hope.
You can heal your toxic shame.
You have to expose it, bring itout of hiding, and John
Bradshaw says this is best donein a non-shaming intimate
network, and for him it wasAlcoholics Anonymous.
That was his non-shaming,intimate network that he credits
with saving his life.
(30:36):
Our Teen Moms Anonymous supportgroups are a non-shaming,
intimate network where teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
moms can talk about their shameand bring it out of hiding.
So this is our show for today.
Thanks for listening to ourTeen Moms Anonymous podcast.
We are a podcast for teen momsand adult mothers who were teen
(30:58):
moms, especially those whosurvived violence and abuse.
Our focus is on emotionalhealth and wellness, because we
know that emotionally healthymothers are better equipped to
nurture the emotionaldevelopment of their children.
I'm your host, Dr.
Chris Stroble, founder of TeenMoms Anonymous, a ministry for
(31:18):
teen moms and women who wereteen moms, and the award-winning
author of Helping Teen MomsGraduate Strategies for Family,
schools and CommunityOrganizations.
I hope this information hasbeen helpful to you.
If so, send us a message.
We'd love to hear fromlisteners.
Share with us your experiencewith shame.
(31:41):
You can email us at info atteammomsA.
org.
Again, you can email us at infoat teammomsA.
org, or you can visit ourwebsite, teammomsA.
org and fill out the contactform.
If you have questions or topicsyou want me to discuss, send
those to us as well, and I willaddress as many as I can in
(32:02):
future shows.
Finally, we are committed towalking alongside you on your
journey of healing youremotional wounds, so stay
connected to us.
Follow us on social mediaInstagram and Facebook at Team
Moms Anonymous, visit ourwebsite, team Moms A and
subscribe to our blog andpodcast.
(32:23):
If you're in the Greenville/Spartanburg area of South
Carolina, you can sign up forone of our local in-person
non-shaming support groups.
And let me say this right nowwe only offer in-person,
face-to-face support groups.
I have had agencies frommultiple states contact me about
(32:44):
online support groups, but atthis time we don't have the
infrastructure to ensure thesafety of our members, so we
can't offer online supportgroups.
When we have that capacity,that capability, then we will
and we'll be certain to let youknow, and that's another reason
to stay connected to us.
(33:04):
Again, we want to support youon your journey.
Stay connected to us on socialmedia and our website.
So thanks for listening to ourTeen Moms Anonymous podcast.
We'll see the next time.
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