November 12, 2024 • 47 mins
Gitanjali Sakhuja, Associate General Counsel at AmeriCares, shares her dynamic journey from California to living in multiple countries to Washington, D.C., exploring a diverse legal career path. Gitanjali offers valuable perspectives on the differences between in-house counsel and traditional legal roles, focusing on the critical aspects of compliance and sustainability within a global framework.
She discusses the importance of collaboration, creativity, and lifelong learning in legal practice, and opens up about her mentoring initiatives and strategies for building strong professional networks. The conversation also touches on balancing a fulfilling career with personal passions—highlighted by Gitanjali’s love for Bollywood dancing and exercise—and her dedication to aligning her work objectives with helping others achieve their goals, all while maintaining compliance with legal standards.
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Guest Info:
Gitanjali Sakhuja, Associate General Counsel, Americares
Gitanjali Sakhuja is an accomplished in-house legal counsel and certified Ethics & Compliance leader with a global perspective, known for turning complex challenges into actionable solutions. With expertise spanning governance, risk management, global compliance, and strategic legal direction, she brings a collaborative, creative approach to fostering growth and mindful leadership within international and corporate entities. Outside of work, Gitanjali is passionate about mentoring, teaching Bollywood and Bhangra dance, and supporting community initiatives.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gitanjalisakhuja/
Email: gitanjali.sakhuja@gmail.com
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Organizations referenced where:
Americares: https://www.americares.org/
Streetwise Partners: https://www.streetwisepartners.org
Legal Mentor Network: https://www.legalmentornetwork.org
Eyesea: https://eyesea.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music
(00:27):
And welcome back to the AvidKit Nextdoor.
Today we have a very special AvidKit.
My name is Kelby Balena and I'm here with my co-host today.
Hello everybody, my name is Margarita Arango.
And today, and I apologize in advance if I butcher your name,
(00:48):
Quintanchali Sacucha?
Correct.
Alright, you are currently Associate General Counsel at AmeriCares.
Being in-house is very different than people know when they're watching TV or they're watching some legal drama.
It's usually like big law, you're talking about a court case or something like that.
(01:08):
You are helping a company, you're an advocate for a company and what their mission is.
So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being here.
Are you a Washingtonian, are you coming from a different area of the US or the globe?
I am.
I want to just say thank you again, Kelby and Margarita for this invitation.
(01:31):
I'm super excited to talk with you both and just thrilled about this brand new show and highlighting the journeys that different lawyers have taken to where they are today.
Your question of where I'm from.
I'm originally from California, West Coast, the Silicon Valley, the San Francisco Bay Area.
(01:52):
I've had a long life in between California and DC and my arrival into DC is a bit of a funny story.
So when I say I've had a long life, I've lived in seven countries in between California and DC.
So when I had the opportunity in school to figure out that there were these programs that offered study abroad or internships that you could do, I was like, yep, sign me up.
(02:19):
I'm going.
And every instance took me a little bit further east or west, depending on where that opportunity was.
And then coming to DC, I moved to DC from Denmark.
So I had been living in Denmark for the last about five years or so.
I was thinking it's been about 14 years that I've been abroad and I'm ready to return to my home country.
(02:42):
And where would I like to go?
I had a short list of cities that I wanted to live in that I hadn't already lived in before.
And DC kind of fit that bill, you know, being a big little city and offered me a nice stepping stone coming back from Europe.
I feel like DC has a lot of variety, different cultures, different areas, different foods.
(03:04):
Which cities, which countries did you live in before coming to DC?
Starting from furthest east would be Indonesia, India, the Netherlands, Switzerland, France and Denmark.
And then my home country, the US.
Wow, that's amazing.
That is amazing.
You chose to be in law.
(03:24):
Was that something that you were always targeting as a kid or going through high school?
Was law or law school kind of a target?
I wouldn't say that law school was a target.
I think I kind of knew I wanted to be an advocate of some sorts.
I didn't quite know what shape it was going to take.
I had in mind that I wanted to be a teacher.
(03:46):
I knew that I was always kind of logical.
I was argumentative.
I had this big passion for ethics.
I was that kid that had a lot of opinions on things, right?
Just because everybody was doing something a certain way to me didn't mean that it was right.
I wanted to know what was right, what was not right.
I had this appreciation for rules, but I also was a little bit of that risk taker, right?
(04:11):
I would test things out myself before drawing a conclusion, unless it was something obviously legal or that I'm allergic to, right?
But I was fascinated by wanting to have this career in the UN.
I wanted to be on the world stage of peace and security.
The UN being the United Nations.
(04:31):
Exactly.
So my early career years were spent trying to find what was going to be my purpose in law.
I had worked before going to law school for one of the big four consulting firms, and that kind of gave me exposure to what law firm life would be like.
And I knew that that really wasn't for me.
And I wanted to have this very different path.
(04:52):
So while in law school, I did all my internships at the UN.
I ended up finding a role right after graduation.
And that took me across legal operations, partnerships, really where I had this role to have impact on policies, to build governance frameworks from the ground up,
(05:14):
to find those solutions on that global stage that were multi-stakeholder, and all with this long-term view to improve compliance and sustainability.
For anyone who may not understand what compliance and sustainability are, how is that helpful, I guess, maybe either to a company or an organization?
(05:34):
What does an attorney do in that area for the person on the street who may not be an expert in the legal field?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's a question that I end up answering a lot when I'm in that role.
So it's one that companies, organizations, entities tend to hire for, but then they're not quite sure what they want you to do as well, too.
(05:59):
So kind of like a requirement, but they don't know why they...
It's a requirement. We need to do it.
Are you going to be a box ticker?
Are you going to stop us from doing things?
And so lawyers, compliance professionals tend to have a little bit of this reputation of being a party of no.
And I try to advocate for myself that I'm that party of yes, my objective is to help you fulfill your objective.
(06:27):
My objective is to ensure that what we're going to do is on the right side of the law.
It's really going to be sustainable in the impact that you desire to affect.
Compliance in different organizations means very different things from a subject matter point of view.
And so a lot of it falls on ethics and how we want to truly live and embody those values of the organization to be able to sustain that mission of the organization.
(06:56):
Would the average law student have classes on compliance and sustainability?
Or is that something you learned through your experiences at the UN or other places?
Yeah. So I'll probably date myself by my admissions here.
But when I went to law school, I didn't know compliance was a field, was an avenue.
Even when I started in the UN as well, too, they weren't really a designated field as it exists today.
(07:24):
So it's also evolved, I would say, across sectors and what it actually means for organizations and how compliance really benefits the organization.
I like to think of compliance kind of like being that insurance that is actually going to protect your revenue.
So it's essentially an investment on a return for integrity and not necessarily where leadership management tends to look at, well, prove your return on investment.
(07:51):
Don't be just a COD center. But how are you bringing in the dollars for me?
How does compliance work, for example, between states and companies?
Do they have to comply with the same things?
When we talk about compliance obligations, how does it what does it mean for a state?
And what does it mean for a company?
(08:12):
So companies take their cue from where they operate, right?
And so the laws of the land where they're operating.
So that's going to give guidance to, for example, everything from your employment practices, your operational practices,
depending on sort of what industry that you're in, as well as, you know, the conduct and the behavior of your workforce as well, too.
(08:36):
States are the ones that are sort of legislating and putting forth what those requirements are going to be.
And then companies need to figure out sort of, you know, what does that legislative framework and landscape look like?
Right. How is my organization?
How are my people, my operations going to be impacted by these various laws?
(08:57):
And so in the context that I've worked in globally, that can range from any number of countries,
in addition to having operations in the US where you have to factor in all the state legislature and requirements as well.
So basically, a company needs to comply with each of the laws of the states the company has presence in.
(09:19):
How do you maybe mold or how do we advise a company to to try to build those activities into complying with the law or the obligations of a host country?
Yeah, so a often it's a little bit like you're trying to build a framework as the airplane is flying.
(09:41):
Right. And you need to make sure that the airplane or the boat, whatever it is that is moving, you know, can can continue to keep moving.
Right. So dynamic. It's very dynamic.
Right. And then as as the legislative and regulatory regimes continue to change and evolve,
you know, you always need to you always need to have your tools handy to know where those tweaks need to be made.
(10:05):
Doing so in a manner that is also going to, you know, generate that buy in that's also going to be needed from your workforce.
Right. Everywhere across the line from your board all the way down to those on the front lines as well, too, because any change that you're making is a change.
And when what do we do? What's our immediate reaction when we're confronted with change?
(10:27):
We're like, I don't want to do that. I'm good. I'm fine. Right.
But if the regulatory regime is saying, well, now you got to do this, you got to do this.
You got to figure out a way to integrate a compliance measure or a requirement into your business.
So so much so that you're taking also that risk based approach to how is that actually going to impact my operations?
(10:51):
Is it a large risk? Is it a small risk? What sort of mitigation measures do I need to put in place?
How am I going to keep my business running?
And the compliance realm, it requires a lot of creativity, a lot of problem solving and really trying to get to that place of finding yeses so your business can run smoothly.
And I think that's where the secret really is to get that buy in.
(11:14):
What would be the role of international organizations into this compliance mixture?
Like, for example, in the UN, were you working with compliance obligations as well?
Yeah, so I feel that compliance has always been part and parcel of what I've done.
Right. When you are from a legal oriented department or working with any set of laws, even in spaces that I've occupied, for example, procurement, there are policies,
(11:40):
there are guidance and a framework around how you are actually executing your business.
How are you transacting with partners?
That's compliance, ensuring that there are guardrails around how you are going to conduct your business.
Yeah. So when it comes to the UN, you've got a completely different set of norms.
So it's a little different when you take it and equivocate it now to the private sector.
(12:05):
And that's part of the creativity and the problem solving as well, too, is to figure out what laws are going to impact you.
What's going to impact your business? Where are your people? Where are your products or services going?
It's a bit of a jigsaw puzzle that you're constantly needing to move pieces around.
It really just sounds like there's a lot of different aspects and things to know.
(12:27):
And this is where your experience really does pay off or a company can value someone with this experience.
Because I'm looking through your LinkedIn and I see there are compliance seminars or conferences and you're meeting other people.
And I'm assuming you're also at events where they're talking about new laws and what they've changed.
(12:49):
Is that what if somebody was interested in this field or were to expect that you are just always learning something?
Absolutely. And I think that's actually one of the things that I love about what I do.
I don't have a single day that looks the same as it did yesterday and definitely won't look the same tomorrow.
That sort of evolutionary dynamic of the field is something if you thrive off of that.
(13:14):
And again, depending on sort of what your sphere is and what subjects would be within your particular remit will also inform what that's going to look like.
And if anything, if you're working for an entity that has eyes on growth,
then it's also a matter of staying ahead to be able to guide and navigate the organization towards that objective of reaching growth.
(13:40):
It sounds like networking would be very important to connect with your peers, your colleagues, others.
Is that something that you ended up having to learn in law school or other places?
Is how to network, how to connect there?
Did it just come naturally to you or was it kind of a learning curve?
(14:01):
I think that's a great question.
And I have so many things that I want to tell you about it.
I think a good part of it came from my experience in the UN when you're dealing on that global stage and you are working with stakeholders from very different parts of the world.
It's a matter of trying to find that common ground and to be able to achieve the problem solving that you need to have.
(14:24):
Collaboration is a huge element of the work I've been involved in.
So is relationship building.
To that point, having a network to go into these solutions that are actually going to stick and help you achieve those results has been catalytic for me.
And then from there, it's just been about continuing to find those communities in every land that I have found myself in.
(14:51):
And in fact, one of the things I did upon moving here to DC was coming in and saying, I don't have as robust of a network here in DC.
And I had come also sort of post COVID.
So it was a little quiet on the streets and kind of put out a call that I want to meet people.
Compliance professionals, legal professionals, they're great people and great people to know.
(15:15):
And we didn't have really a community here in DC around compliance.
And I thought, you know, ironically, because we're in DC, right?
And it's actually come up from on the back of then what I did end up starting was DC compliance socials, which are informal networking, sort of happy hours.
(15:35):
We host them every other month.
In fact, I signed up for one. I just saw that.
I need to know more about this area of law.
So they're not academic in any which way.
They're not about knowledge sharing in like a true essence where we are deliberating on a particular, you know, whether it's a new regulation or how you're handling an AI policy internally.
(15:58):
But they're really for compliance professionals to get to know one another outside of their working time.
They get to take their superhero capes off.
They get to, you know, like share and they they get to have a chat with somebody who understands what they're dealing with.
Right. So if you've just come from a really tough board meeting where you've been grilled on a proposal or initiative that you're taking, you're in the company of others who understand that.
(16:27):
And you can have conversations and you make an emotional support group a little bit.
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.
And I think that's the magic of communities.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
And I also noticed that you also mentor.
I do. Is mentoring kind of like we're going to go grab coffee or is it the sort of I'm teaching you how to Bollywood dance?
(16:53):
So so that that kind of falls it the latter falls into a bucket of a different community that I've also started.
Right. So one thing is like truly loving what you do and the other is like, you know, ensuring that you've also got other interests as well.
You played some great music. And the first thing I was thinking about is, oh, this would be fun to dance to.
(17:13):
But mentorship for me has been a means and a way to sort of pay it forward and something that I had wanted to do.
I've kind of informally done a lot of mentoring over my career, building up the teams and the people that I have worked with.
One of the great things is sort of on arriving into D.C., there's so many amazing organizations and they need support.
(17:40):
And so I found one organization by the name of Streetwise Partners that runs a program to service underrepresented communities,
communities that otherwise wouldn't have access to different jobs.
And so it's it's cultivating job skills that one would need to find, for example,
a job in the corporate realm or offering different opportunities.
(18:01):
For me, it's very important because I didn't know that these avenues existed when I was younger.
I didn't have a playbook that told me that, you know, go seek out mentors, have counsel.
I mean, I know, you know, one thing that that's also very important and common to the both of you as well, too.
But I'm a daughter of immigrant parents.
(18:22):
So my parents also didn't give me this this set of rules, their avenues for you to get guidance
and understand what it's like to have a job in corporate America.
And this is how you will succeed. Right.
And so I figure, you know, if I had to go through a number of hard knocks and, you know, fall flat on my face a few times over,
(18:42):
I want to help unpack that for others as well, too.
No. And you bring up an interesting point, because growing up and trying to get into the legal field,
I never knew that I could reach out to somebody and ask them for their time.
I just thought that I had to get to a certain level before I even get to that point.
And now that becomes more common.
(19:04):
I think D.C. is a better networking slash mentorship town.
But, yeah, sometimes you just don't know that networking is important.
Going to webinars is important. Trying to be on speaking events is important.
As I write, you're like on conferences. Absolutely.
You're speaking about different topics.
Absolutely. I think that's something that I've also.
(19:27):
Learned over over my career, right, through some of those missteps that I have a voice.
One thing that stuck with me and some lessons I've had to unlearn over my life is I have a voice.
I can tap into it. I can access it and to not make myself small in a way.
And to say, who wants to hear my point of view?
(19:48):
And so kind of leaning into that more and making sure that others also know that they they have a voice and an important story to tell.
Everyone has a very unique story and those stories should be heard.
So I think that through the power of mentorship, another great organization that I found through
networking is the Legal Mentors Network, which has has sort of kind of shot off in the last few years.
(20:15):
But it's really to to support the newer generations of legal professionals coming to the field.
So whether you're a student or new into the profession, you can also seek counsel from this wide community of lawyers
who are looking to give back and provide those torchlights that can light up your future pathways.
(20:36):
Yeah, that's amazing. Actually, what you were saying, for example, as that come from an immigrant background
for international students is is a cultural shock sometimes to come to the United States and try to build up their professional career in the States.
And this idea of having a mentor is sometimes maybe not well developed in other places of the world.
(21:03):
This idea of having a mentor might come as something new for them.
I was one of them, so I was very interested in how to build a mentor-mentor relationship.
Do you have any advice on how to reach out to someone that you admire or look up to and say, hey, do you want to be my mentor?
Like sometimes students, just young lawyers here in the States or anywhere in the world feel that they don't have anything to offer to a mentor.
(21:31):
So why would a mentor say yes to a mentee?
So I think the greatest advice I can give you is one that was imparted to me by one of my mentors.
And that is you will 100 percent miss all the shots that you don't take.
And that to me, I think when she told me this, I was like, huh, you're absolutely right.
(21:53):
So much of what we want sits on the other side of fear and to students, to younger folks, older folks, whomever is listening.
I think it's about just asking the question and not wondering about what they're going to say.
If they say no, great, fine. Yeah.
Ask them who they might recommend as a mentor.
(22:14):
We tend to kind of stay in places out of fear, and I think so much of the success and the opportunities that I have found in life have been because of just putting myself constantly in a new environment and saying, well, I got to figure it out.
Yeah. And then quickly finding people of who can I start building those communities.
(22:40):
And I think those opportunities to build those communities are everywhere.
They don't need to be achieved by having fancy acronyms of some pedigree that is necessary.
Your network starts when you go to the gym, people who you sit on the rowing machine next to.
I've made friends at my row studio. Networks are everywhere.
(23:02):
That's a great way of thinking about it, because I never thought about the gym being a way to network.
But you're right. Absolutely.
People are everywhere and people come from different backgrounds, different stories.
So it's great to connect.
I'm a little bit more curious because I've been in big law all my life and I haven't had the privilege to be in in-house counsel, besides not having to do time entries.
(23:26):
I mean, what is that like?
A lot of people out there might not know what in-house counsel is really like in comparison to a different law firm.
So I think my answer kind of depends on what's that organization that you're working in-house for, right?
I mean, I've been within the private sector with a company that had a very large legal team, 200 plus lawyers.
(23:54):
And we've got specialty in different subject matters.
And then I've been in organizations where I've been the solo.
So, you know, that's where sort of like the diversity in terms of what you're going to be dealing with will matter a lot.
But you either can be one of a hundred plus in a team.
(24:18):
And when you're on that side of doing everything, you end up becoming somewhat of a generalist, right?
You're dealing with all different types of issues, everything from employment issues to insurance to commercial legal contracts.
You know, no two days, like I said, is going to be the same because you're fielding all sorts of inquiries across your organization.
(24:42):
I need to provide answers.
So that's a little bit of what in-house has meant for me and my experience.
It sounded like even though you're doing compliance, you do get to wear many hats.
And before we got to start the podcast, we were talking about being more active with companies, having more active role.
(25:05):
You get to be on the operational side, whereas a lot of other companies have a lot of different roles that are divided up.
You get to be more active with the company that you work with.
Can you explain a little bit more about that?
Is that dependent on the company or is that just maybe a benefit of being part of that company and having that role?
(25:28):
I think what I would credit to my journey that I've had has been trying to have this interesting career and go where the curiosity is and also where the needs are of the organizations I've been a part of.
So I started in the UN with the legal department and that had opportunity to kind of shift into some operational roles as well, too, which put me out in the field.
(25:54):
When you're out in the field, you're working with the people that you're shouting to from the ivory tower to say, do this or do that or send us these contracts or comply with these measures.
And when you're actually out in the field and you're working alongside your front line, it's a very enlightening experience to understand how your policies that you're trying to affect and what you're trying to push down is landing.
(26:22):
So it's very humbling position.
So I think having had that exposure has led to my ability to work in a very different way with the business because I've been with the business.
So I understand what are the behaviors that are involved, what's pushing the decision making, do they have the tools, the resources, are the solutions that we're suggesting relevant for that particular challenge that they're trying to overcome?
(26:55):
How do we co-create the solutions?
How do they take ownership of compliance so much so that they integrate it in?
And I think the best reward or the best kind of compliment to that is coming back to having the business then say, hey, did anybody talk to Gitanjali about this?
(27:15):
Because if she's cleared it, then we're good to go.
Right.
So that's a benefit of having had that experience and that exposure and that's come from a lot of curiosity.
I'm like, you know, if there are these stretch missions to go out to the field, I'd be like, yep, I'll go.
I'll go see what that's like because I found that that actually makes me better counsel, better able to guide and then, you know, to kind of demystify a lot of it might be commonplace.
(27:45):
You know, oh, well, if we go to legal, they're just going to say no.
And I'm like, no, let's get to that.
Yes. How do we do that together?
I relate to that because earlier in my career, I felt like I made a ton of mistakes.
But when you get your hands dirty, you get to see how work earlier gets applied.
Maybe you're in a trial.
(28:05):
Maybe you're you're working with a client.
You get to see how the work you did previously is actually implemented, applied.
And then you get that chance to say, wait a second, the next time I need to make these corrections or I need to account for these separate different things.
And that opportunity is a great one because I'm assuming that at some point you go back and you realize, wait a second, maybe something that I felt strongly about wasn't correct or I need to modify it somehow.
(28:36):
Is that absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think when I mentioned earlier around collaboration and relationship building, that's the first place where I go to try to ensure that we've got this ability to sit around that table.
Right. So I don't go into a situation kind of hot.
You know, I don't go in like Miley Cyrus is wrecking ball and say, OK, no, no, scrap all of what you're doing.
(28:59):
Stop. We need to you know, you need to do it this way.
I go into brainstorming and then ask a lot of questions.
What's going on? What is it that you're trying to achieve?
Why is it you're trying to achieve?
Because if I can understand what's driving where the motivations are, I can look at, OK, well, maybe it's just a little tweak here or a clause we need to add here or one check that might need to come into being able to deliver on this particular strategy.
(29:24):
And I think in my career, I've only had to say no maybe two times.
We can really get to those places of then finding those guesses fairly quickly.
It feels like you are a team builder.
You solve a lot of problems.
You help people work better.
Any suggestions for anyone who maybe is in a leadership role and they need to figure out how do I get better with my team or how do I get to be a better leader?
(29:53):
Being curious to understand what it is that that you that your stakeholders actually need.
Another good part is taking those big bets on yourself.
I didn't know that I would end up being a leader in the way that I have evolved to be.
I never knew earlier on in my career if the paths I was taking were the right ones, but I just kept moving and I kept evolving.
(30:19):
Part of success and finding your place in leadership is also about failing along the way and failing and learning from those instances.
I'd say, you know, I mean, striving towards progress is where I think that bet is.
And to really chart that course for yourself and to define your own personal style for leadership.
(30:42):
There's so much material and so much content that is out there on, you know, you can take this form or that form.
But so much of it also needs to come from your learned experiences and where your curiosity and your passion drives you and figuring out what is that purpose that's going to drive you.
It's been something that has been that guiding beacon for me.
(31:05):
I didn't want to get to the end of my life and say, oh, what was my purpose?
Or did I, you know, generate impact in my life?
I've been fortunate to work with some amazing organizations that are extremely mission driven.
Yeah, these opportunities to learn.
I've had to be in those places where I've also worked more hours than necessary to prove myself.
(31:28):
And I think it's really about taking those bets on yourself.
Some of us get imposter syndrome at some point and we think we're not good enough here or at least not good enough to be a leader.
And we get either pushed into it or promoted into it.
Yeah. And Americare does great work for new legal professionals coming to this field and even non-lawyers coming to this field.
(31:50):
The beauty of compliance is it really draws upon so much expertise that sits outside of the legal realm as well, too.
Right. And so, you know, whether it is folks that are trained in conversant, in audit, finance or behavioral science or investigations.
I mean, there's so many fields that are actually informing a robust compliance program.
(32:15):
Where you're saying that a non-lawyer can help out as well.
Absolutely. So it's not a field only limited to lawyers.
There tends to be these camps one way or the other that think the profession should be lawyers.
And maybe that's necessary in some particular roles.
But otherwise, I think a compliance team actually benefits from so much of that experience and expertise that comes from other professions as well.
(32:39):
OK. Well, that's inspiring because anyone who thinks, well, I don't know if I want to do law school, but I do want to help.
Or I want to be in this kind of area.
Maybe I can check it out. Absolutely. Try to do it and see if it's right for me.
If I want to do the legal aspect, great.
If I want to do more of the reports, the analytical stuff, that's an option as well.
(33:00):
In your personal life, do you have a method of after a long day of working in this field that you distress hobbies,
things that you recommend of having some kind of work life balance?
Yeah, actually, if we can circle back to that Bollywood dancing, that would be amazing.
(33:20):
Absolutely. A funny story of how that came about when I was in university.
I somehow found myself in competitive dancing.
And it was competitive dancing well before where I think they are today with these very formalized competitions.
I was in the first of some of these competitions that took place in the US in this particular form of Indian folk dancing called Bhagra.
(33:48):
I've always enjoyed it. I left it at that time and I was like, OK, I need to be serious and I need to do something with my life outside of this interest of dancing.
That was a little bit the expectation that I didn't go to a fancy university to become a Bhangra dancer, but something that would pay bills.
Fast forward to landing here in DC.
(34:10):
And a friend of mine said there's this gallery and they're always looking for courses and you know, you dance pretty well.
You can teach a class. I thought that's crazy. I'm not formally trained.
And then I thought about it and I was like, but why couldn't I teach dance? I love it.
I love teaching. And it's a way for me to also share my culture with others.
(34:34):
There's an exercise component as well, too. And I'll be curious about the people who show up to my classes.
And that's kind of how that me being a dancing lawyer here in DC kind of took off.
So right now you're teaching and where can we go to attend one of your classes?
Yeah, absolutely. So I teach classes in Georgetown at a gallery.
(34:55):
We use the space, so it's a nice ambiance and environment to be in where you get to look at beautiful art.
There's no mirrors, so you don't have to worry about your skills.
I'm very open to, you know, everybody just come as they are and do what you want.
I would totally prefer this over the karaoke after the networking meetings.
(35:17):
Yeah. Let's go dance.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think dance is one of those things that's super expressive.
We talked a little bit earlier about finding your voice.
I think it's also finding your voice in your rhythm, right?
Like, how is it that you want to move?
How is it you want to appear?
And how do you want to share in this experience? Right.
(35:39):
It's a really fun courses.
We teach a routine to a particular song and show them then the contrast of like how it's done in Bollywood,
like how it appeared in a Bollywood film.
So then they get to enjoy the music.
They've learned something a little bit different.
Very nice. And then we adjust.
And it's more for play rather than it is performative in any which way.
(36:03):
Because it can be just work, work, work, you know, just 100 percent.
I mean, one of the things that I learned along my career is also prioritizing your well-being, right?
And especially working in the space of like on the international stage or when you are that solo team, right?
You're often carrying this weight.
Literally, it feels like the weight of the world on your shoulders.
(36:27):
And that's not sustainable.
And if you're out there trying to like project sustainability and growth for your organization and you're not able to give that to yourself,
then you're in discord. You don't have that alignment.
So I think it's very important to have outside interest and not wait for that day when you retire or when the kids go off to school.
(36:51):
Find what that is.
Explore.
I also had to kind of rack my brain when we all went into covid lockdown.
And I was like, now what do we do?
Because you were so people worrying in it.
Right. And then when you're cut off from that, it's like, what am I interested in?
What do I do to pass time?
Because you don't want to like work to be consuming all that excess.
(37:14):
It must be very difficult when you're connecting with so many people and then suddenly you can't.
Yes.
Any advice that you could give to say, here's what I would do as a leader to encourage people to come back in.
Besides the pizza Fridays or lunches, there's a lot of leaders who maybe don't know how to inspire their people to want to just work one on one in person.
(37:41):
Because I think you don't really appreciate it until you are in person.
That's one of the reasons why I think this podcast feels a lot better being in person, getting to feel that expression and that passion that you have for your field.
Absolutely.
I appreciate what leaders have been trying to do to bring workforces back to the office.
(38:02):
It's also about meeting your workforce and in what works best for them as well, too.
Right. I think so much of the way that we operated sort of pre covid to now is that having that trust in that ability to
give your workforce the space that they need to operate and to work independently, but also sort of cultivating and finding those opportunities of where you actually can better build rapport with your team across the organization as well.
(38:32):
So I mean, what you just mentioned, you know, the fact of like us recording this podcast and the three of us sitting in a room together is very different from when you do these virtually.
So finding where those opportunities might be to have younger staff come in for networking events, being there as part of it and then showing this is how we operate when we go out to network.
(38:55):
These are very important skills that you need to be able to cultivate and build those relationships.
So not at the sacrifice of having those relationships.
It's a fine balance to kind of operate.
I don't know if I'm making any sense, but it's really about finding, I guess, what is going to work for different people.
And there's not going to be a one size fits all approach.
And I think kind of moving away from that and really trying to then focus on how do we bring that to unison within the team, but also bring that along with your stakeholders, your external partners and across your organization, because there's no I would say like no replacements that have that have stuck.
(39:35):
And if there are, I would really love to know what the what those might be for, you know, those conversations you have around the water cooler to get to to understand.
And I'm not talking about in the gossip sense of things, right.
But like, what's going on?
What are you working on?
What are the challenges that you're facing or just having conversations that can facilitate connection?
(39:58):
Right.
So I think it's striving and looking for where those opportunities might be and then bringing those to your workforce.
In fact, I used to ride the elevator a lot back in my old firm.
One of the reasons why is because I found that sometimes when it was really hard to get a couple of minutes with someone, when I got to catch them in the elevator, it was that opportunity when I was like, hey, by the way, what's the status on this?
(40:26):
Absolutely.
By the way, I'm going to resend you that email and just like just enough time just to be like, OK, let's get it done.
Stop the elevator.
Just to have the chat with a partner.
But sometimes there's that value.
It's trying to adapt and change and trying to remember that there are younger people, junior people who are not at your level.
(40:49):
They also need that opportunity to be mentored, to understand what's going on in the team and to feel like they are part of the team.
Yeah. And I think I mean, that's part of leadership, right?
Modeling the behavior that you're also desiring to impart, right?
So you also being there, being present and being there when there are the networking events or being there to facilitate and making sure that you are facilitating those introductions along the way, finding those points and pointing out those places for connection.
(41:20):
One of the things we talked a little bit about the compliance socials and the way that I host them, I don't have people wearing name tags and saying where they work.
I'm like, that's your job.
You got to talk.
But if you aren't comfortable in that, because I also want it to be a space where people of all different sort of like social types.
Right. I mean, you mentioned me being a people person.
(41:41):
I'm a people person and I'm not people person when I want to be.
Right.
So being able to take a person over and say, hey, you both live in Capitol Hill, maybe you will find that you have you have something in common.
Right. I try to find those places of commonality that can encourage a conversation.
Have you ever feel like your social battery is running low?
(42:06):
Oh, 100 percent.
What do you do to recharge it?
I exercise.
I think that's a nice way to get out of my own head and help me recharge my batteries, spend time in nature when I can.
One of the other organizations that I worked for prior to joining Americare and Still Support is IC, a nonprofit that works in the space of mapping pollution in waterways.
(42:29):
I walk everywhere.
And with IC, it's actually making me walk further.
Every time I'm near the Potomac and spot trash in the river, I'm clicking photos to contribute the data that we are looking to collect so we can find solutions.
That's a way of also recharging, knowing that I'm still doing something meaningful, but I'm also doing something meaningful for myself as well, too.
(42:55):
And that's that's the important part on well-being and taking care of yourself as well.
In this area of compliance, is this an area where there is an opportunity for diversity?
Is there room for others for this area to grow?
Is this a great area that needs more women, more women of color, more people of diverse backgrounds?
(43:17):
I would say yes to everything.
It's a field that benefits tremendously from the diversity that it can have,
not only in terms of the competencies and expertise you would bring to enrich the field of compliance because it covers so much.
But I think that's where women being part of this profession, women of color being part of this profession is so important,
(43:45):
particularly as so much of our work and the world that we live in today we've seen over COVID is so interconnected.
Having this diverse, very sort of inclusive representation of who is sitting there to be your champions around ethics and integrity comes from having that representation of the voices.
(44:08):
I found it by happenstance, a role that I had applied for that had compliance in the title.
Because when I looked at the job description, I was like, but I've done all these things.
Maybe it just didn't have that title associated to it.
You know, policies, investigations, trainings, working with a number of stakeholders.
(44:30):
I've done all of this.
That's where, again, not limiting yourself, not finding those boxes that you need to tick,
but how many of those boxes, like outside of those boxes, can you operate in?
And I think so much of that comes from being adaptable and being able to pivot.
So join this profession.
(44:51):
I think it's one of the greatest.
Well, I hope some people out there have been inspired to join this area of law.
And I thank you for coming in and speaking to us.
But also, I look forward to seeing you at a future social event.
Absolutely.
Or at a Bollywood dance.
Oh, or a Bollywood, yeah.
I would love that.
Absolutely.
I don't know if when people are networking out there, they understand the importance of that middle person who gets to people and connects them.
(45:20):
Because sometimes you have a little bit of a struggle trying to find out who I can connect with.
And what you had said previously about being someone who finds two shared interests and you connect them is really appreciated.
And I've tried to follow suit whenever I find it, but I'm still learning as well.
But I think that's great.
(45:41):
And that's, if anything, hopefully encouraging for someone who might want to go to one of these networking events,
especially if you're there and meet and connect with other people, even if they don't know what this area of law is all about.
Hopefully, they've learned a little bit more to be encouraged to be out there.
So thank you so much for coming in today.
(46:01):
My pleasure. My pleasure.
And I'm just going to end on the fact that I'm still learning, too.
There is so much room for continued growth.
Don't be too quick to close doors.
Keep them open and run through them, skip through them.
Just keep moving.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you so much, Margarita and Kelby.
It's really been a pleasure to talk with you.
(46:23):
Thank you so much.
Music
(00:27):
And welcome back to the AvidKit Nextdoor.
Today we have a very special AvidKit.
My name is Kelby Balena and I'm here with my co-host today.
Hello everybody, my name is Margarita Arango.
And today, and I apologize in advance if I butcher your name,
(00:48):
Quintanchali Sacucha?
Correct.
Alright, you are currently Associate General Counsel at AmeriCares.
Being in-house is very different than people know when they're watching TV or they're watching some legal drama.
It's usually like big law, you're talking about a court case or something like that.
(01:08):
You are helping a company, you're an advocate for a company and what their mission is.
So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being here.
Are you a Washingtonian, are you coming from a different area of the US or the globe?
I am.
I want to just say thank you again, Kelby and Margarita for this invitation.
(01:31):
I'm super excited to talk with you both and just thrilled about this brand new show and highlighting the journeys that different lawyers have taken to where they are today.
Your question of where I'm from.
I'm originally from California, West Coast, the Silicon Valley, the San Francisco Bay Area.
(01:52):
I've had a long life in between California and DC and my arrival into DC is a bit of a funny story.
So when I say I've had a long life, I've lived in seven countries in between California and DC.
So when I had the opportunity in school to figure out that there were these programs that offered study abroad or internships that you could do, I was like, yep, sign me up.
(02:19):
I'm going.
And every instance took me a little bit further east or west, depending on where that opportunity was.
And then coming to DC, I moved to DC from Denmark.
So I had been living in Denmark for the last about five years or so.
I was thinking it's been about 14 years that I've been abroad and I'm ready to return to my home country.
(02:42):
And where would I like to go?
I had a short list of cities that I wanted to live in that I hadn't already lived in before.
And DC kind of fit that bill, you know, being a big little city and offered me a nice stepping stone coming back from Europe.
I feel like DC has a lot of variety, different cultures, different areas, different foods.
(03:04):
Which cities, which countries did you live in before coming to DC?
Starting from furthest east would be Indonesia, India, the Netherlands, Switzerland, France and Denmark.
And then my home country, the US.
Wow, that's amazing.
That is amazing.
You chose to be in law.
(03:24):
Was that something that you were always targeting as a kid or going through high school?
Was law or law school kind of a target?
I wouldn't say that law school was a target.
I think I kind of knew I wanted to be an advocate of some sorts.
I didn't quite know what shape it was going to take.
I had in mind that I wanted to be a teacher.
(03:46):
I knew that I was always kind of logical.
I was argumentative.
I had this big passion for ethics.
I was that kid that had a lot of opinions on things, right?
Just because everybody was doing something a certain way to me didn't mean that it was right.
I wanted to know what was right, what was not right.
I had this appreciation for rules, but I also was a little bit of that risk taker, right?
(04:11):
I would test things out myself before drawing a conclusion, unless it was something obviously legal or that I'm allergic to, right?
But I was fascinated by wanting to have this career in the UN.
I wanted to be on the world stage of peace and security.
The UN being the United Nations.
(04:31):
Exactly.
So my early career years were spent trying to find what was going to be my purpose in law.
I had worked before going to law school for one of the big four consulting firms, and that kind of gave me exposure to what law firm life would be like.
And I knew that that really wasn't for me.
And I wanted to have this very different path.
(04:52):
So while in law school, I did all my internships at the UN.
I ended up finding a role right after graduation.
And that took me across legal operations, partnerships, really where I had this role to have impact on policies, to build governance frameworks from the ground up,
(05:14):
to find those solutions on that global stage that were multi-stakeholder, and all with this long-term view to improve compliance and sustainability.
For anyone who may not understand what compliance and sustainability are, how is that helpful, I guess, maybe either to a company or an organization?
(05:34):
What does an attorney do in that area for the person on the street who may not be an expert in the legal field?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's a question that I end up answering a lot when I'm in that role.
So it's one that companies, organizations, entities tend to hire for, but then they're not quite sure what they want you to do as well, too.
(05:59):
So kind of like a requirement, but they don't know why they...
It's a requirement. We need to do it.
Are you going to be a box ticker?
Are you going to stop us from doing things?
And so lawyers, compliance professionals tend to have a little bit of this reputation of being a party of no.
And I try to advocate for myself that I'm that party of yes, my objective is to help you fulfill your objective.
(06:27):
My objective is to ensure that what we're going to do is on the right side of the law.
It's really going to be sustainable in the impact that you desire to affect.
Compliance in different organizations means very different things from a subject matter point of view.
And so a lot of it falls on ethics and how we want to truly live and embody those values of the organization to be able to sustain that mission of the organization.
(06:56):
Would the average law student have classes on compliance and sustainability?
Or is that something you learned through your experiences at the UN or other places?
Yeah. So I'll probably date myself by my admissions here.
But when I went to law school, I didn't know compliance was a field, was an avenue.
Even when I started in the UN as well, too, they weren't really a designated field as it exists today.
(07:24):
So it's also evolved, I would say, across sectors and what it actually means for organizations and how compliance really benefits the organization.
I like to think of compliance kind of like being that insurance that is actually going to protect your revenue.
So it's essentially an investment on a return for integrity and not necessarily where leadership management tends to look at, well, prove your return on investment.
(07:51):
Don't be just a COD center. But how are you bringing in the dollars for me?
How does compliance work, for example, between states and companies?
Do they have to comply with the same things?
When we talk about compliance obligations, how does it what does it mean for a state?
And what does it mean for a company?
(08:12):
So companies take their cue from where they operate, right?
And so the laws of the land where they're operating.
So that's going to give guidance to, for example, everything from your employment practices, your operational practices,
depending on sort of what industry that you're in, as well as, you know, the conduct and the behavior of your workforce as well, too.
(08:36):
States are the ones that are sort of legislating and putting forth what those requirements are going to be.
And then companies need to figure out sort of, you know, what does that legislative framework and landscape look like?
Right. How is my organization?
How are my people, my operations going to be impacted by these various laws?
(08:57):
And so in the context that I've worked in globally, that can range from any number of countries,
in addition to having operations in the US where you have to factor in all the state legislature and requirements as well.
So basically, a company needs to comply with each of the laws of the states the company has presence in.
(09:19):
How do you maybe mold or how do we advise a company to to try to build those activities into complying with the law or the obligations of a host country?
Yeah, so a often it's a little bit like you're trying to build a framework as the airplane is flying.
(09:41):
Right. And you need to make sure that the airplane or the boat, whatever it is that is moving, you know, can can continue to keep moving.
Right. So dynamic. It's very dynamic.
Right. And then as as the legislative and regulatory regimes continue to change and evolve,
you know, you always need to you always need to have your tools handy to know where those tweaks need to be made.
(10:05):
Doing so in a manner that is also going to, you know, generate that buy in that's also going to be needed from your workforce.
Right. Everywhere across the line from your board all the way down to those on the front lines as well, too, because any change that you're making is a change.
And when what do we do? What's our immediate reaction when we're confronted with change?
(10:27):
We're like, I don't want to do that. I'm good. I'm fine. Right.
But if the regulatory regime is saying, well, now you got to do this, you got to do this.
You got to figure out a way to integrate a compliance measure or a requirement into your business.
So so much so that you're taking also that risk based approach to how is that actually going to impact my operations?
(10:51):
Is it a large risk? Is it a small risk? What sort of mitigation measures do I need to put in place?
How am I going to keep my business running?
And the compliance realm, it requires a lot of creativity, a lot of problem solving and really trying to get to that place of finding yeses so your business can run smoothly.
And I think that's where the secret really is to get that buy in.
(11:14):
What would be the role of international organizations into this compliance mixture?
Like, for example, in the UN, were you working with compliance obligations as well?
Yeah, so I feel that compliance has always been part and parcel of what I've done.
Right. When you are from a legal oriented department or working with any set of laws, even in spaces that I've occupied, for example, procurement, there are policies,
(11:40):
there are guidance and a framework around how you are actually executing your business.
How are you transacting with partners?
That's compliance, ensuring that there are guardrails around how you are going to conduct your business.
Yeah. So when it comes to the UN, you've got a completely different set of norms.
So it's a little different when you take it and equivocate it now to the private sector.
(12:05):
And that's part of the creativity and the problem solving as well, too, is to figure out what laws are going to impact you.
What's going to impact your business? Where are your people? Where are your products or services going?
It's a bit of a jigsaw puzzle that you're constantly needing to move pieces around.
It really just sounds like there's a lot of different aspects and things to know.
(12:27):
And this is where your experience really does pay off or a company can value someone with this experience.
Because I'm looking through your LinkedIn and I see there are compliance seminars or conferences and you're meeting other people.
And I'm assuming you're also at events where they're talking about new laws and what they've changed.
(12:49):
Is that what if somebody was interested in this field or were to expect that you are just always learning something?
Absolutely. And I think that's actually one of the things that I love about what I do.
I don't have a single day that looks the same as it did yesterday and definitely won't look the same tomorrow.
That sort of evolutionary dynamic of the field is something if you thrive off of that.
(13:14):
And again, depending on sort of what your sphere is and what subjects would be within your particular remit will also inform what that's going to look like.
And if anything, if you're working for an entity that has eyes on growth,
then it's also a matter of staying ahead to be able to guide and navigate the organization towards that objective of reaching growth.
(13:40):
It sounds like networking would be very important to connect with your peers, your colleagues, others.
Is that something that you ended up having to learn in law school or other places?
Is how to network, how to connect there?
Did it just come naturally to you or was it kind of a learning curve?
(14:01):
I think that's a great question.
And I have so many things that I want to tell you about it.
I think a good part of it came from my experience in the UN when you're dealing on that global stage and you are working with stakeholders from very different parts of the world.
It's a matter of trying to find that common ground and to be able to achieve the problem solving that you need to have.
(14:24):
Collaboration is a huge element of the work I've been involved in.
So is relationship building.
To that point, having a network to go into these solutions that are actually going to stick and help you achieve those results has been catalytic for me.
And then from there, it's just been about continuing to find those communities in every land that I have found myself in.
(14:51):
And in fact, one of the things I did upon moving here to DC was coming in and saying, I don't have as robust of a network here in DC.
And I had come also sort of post COVID.
So it was a little quiet on the streets and kind of put out a call that I want to meet people.
Compliance professionals, legal professionals, they're great people and great people to know.
(15:15):
And we didn't have really a community here in DC around compliance.
And I thought, you know, ironically, because we're in DC, right?
And it's actually come up from on the back of then what I did end up starting was DC compliance socials, which are informal networking, sort of happy hours.
(15:35):
We host them every other month.
In fact, I signed up for one. I just saw that.
I need to know more about this area of law.
So they're not academic in any which way.
They're not about knowledge sharing in like a true essence where we are deliberating on a particular, you know, whether it's a new regulation or how you're handling an AI policy internally.
(15:58):
But they're really for compliance professionals to get to know one another outside of their working time.
They get to take their superhero capes off.
They get to, you know, like share and they they get to have a chat with somebody who understands what they're dealing with.
Right. So if you've just come from a really tough board meeting where you've been grilled on a proposal or initiative that you're taking, you're in the company of others who understand that.
(16:27):
And you can have conversations and you make an emotional support group a little bit.
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.
And I think that's the magic of communities.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
And I also noticed that you also mentor.
I do. Is mentoring kind of like we're going to go grab coffee or is it the sort of I'm teaching you how to Bollywood dance?
(16:53):
So so that that kind of falls it the latter falls into a bucket of a different community that I've also started.
Right. So one thing is like truly loving what you do and the other is like, you know, ensuring that you've also got other interests as well.
You played some great music. And the first thing I was thinking about is, oh, this would be fun to dance to.
(17:13):
But mentorship for me has been a means and a way to sort of pay it forward and something that I had wanted to do.
I've kind of informally done a lot of mentoring over my career, building up the teams and the people that I have worked with.
One of the great things is sort of on arriving into D.C., there's so many amazing organizations and they need support.
(17:40):
And so I found one organization by the name of Streetwise Partners that runs a program to service underrepresented communities,
communities that otherwise wouldn't have access to different jobs.
And so it's it's cultivating job skills that one would need to find, for example,
a job in the corporate realm or offering different opportunities.
(18:01):
For me, it's very important because I didn't know that these avenues existed when I was younger.
I didn't have a playbook that told me that, you know, go seek out mentors, have counsel.
I mean, I know, you know, one thing that that's also very important and common to the both of you as well, too.
But I'm a daughter of immigrant parents.
(18:22):
So my parents also didn't give me this this set of rules, their avenues for you to get guidance
and understand what it's like to have a job in corporate America.
And this is how you will succeed. Right.
And so I figure, you know, if I had to go through a number of hard knocks and, you know, fall flat on my face a few times over,
(18:42):
I want to help unpack that for others as well, too.
No. And you bring up an interesting point, because growing up and trying to get into the legal field,
I never knew that I could reach out to somebody and ask them for their time.
I just thought that I had to get to a certain level before I even get to that point.
And now that becomes more common.
(19:04):
I think D.C. is a better networking slash mentorship town.
But, yeah, sometimes you just don't know that networking is important.
Going to webinars is important. Trying to be on speaking events is important.
As I write, you're like on conferences. Absolutely.
You're speaking about different topics.
Absolutely. I think that's something that I've also.
(19:27):
Learned over over my career, right, through some of those missteps that I have a voice.
One thing that stuck with me and some lessons I've had to unlearn over my life is I have a voice.
I can tap into it. I can access it and to not make myself small in a way.
And to say, who wants to hear my point of view?
(19:48):
And so kind of leaning into that more and making sure that others also know that they they have a voice and an important story to tell.
Everyone has a very unique story and those stories should be heard.
So I think that through the power of mentorship, another great organization that I found through
networking is the Legal Mentors Network, which has has sort of kind of shot off in the last few years.
(20:15):
But it's really to to support the newer generations of legal professionals coming to the field.
So whether you're a student or new into the profession, you can also seek counsel from this wide community of lawyers
who are looking to give back and provide those torchlights that can light up your future pathways.
(20:36):
Yeah, that's amazing. Actually, what you were saying, for example, as that come from an immigrant background
for international students is is a cultural shock sometimes to come to the United States and try to build up their professional career in the States.
And this idea of having a mentor is sometimes maybe not well developed in other places of the world.
(21:03):
This idea of having a mentor might come as something new for them.
I was one of them, so I was very interested in how to build a mentor-mentor relationship.
Do you have any advice on how to reach out to someone that you admire or look up to and say, hey, do you want to be my mentor?
Like sometimes students, just young lawyers here in the States or anywhere in the world feel that they don't have anything to offer to a mentor.
(21:31):
So why would a mentor say yes to a mentee?
So I think the greatest advice I can give you is one that was imparted to me by one of my mentors.
And that is you will 100 percent miss all the shots that you don't take.
And that to me, I think when she told me this, I was like, huh, you're absolutely right.
(21:53):
So much of what we want sits on the other side of fear and to students, to younger folks, older folks, whomever is listening.
I think it's about just asking the question and not wondering about what they're going to say.
If they say no, great, fine. Yeah.
Ask them who they might recommend as a mentor.
(22:14):
We tend to kind of stay in places out of fear, and I think so much of the success and the opportunities that I have found in life have been because of just putting myself constantly in a new environment and saying, well, I got to figure it out.
Yeah. And then quickly finding people of who can I start building those communities.
(22:40):
And I think those opportunities to build those communities are everywhere.
They don't need to be achieved by having fancy acronyms of some pedigree that is necessary.
Your network starts when you go to the gym, people who you sit on the rowing machine next to.
I've made friends at my row studio. Networks are everywhere.
(23:02):
That's a great way of thinking about it, because I never thought about the gym being a way to network.
But you're right. Absolutely.
People are everywhere and people come from different backgrounds, different stories.
So it's great to connect.
I'm a little bit more curious because I've been in big law all my life and I haven't had the privilege to be in in-house counsel, besides not having to do time entries.
(23:26):
I mean, what is that like?
A lot of people out there might not know what in-house counsel is really like in comparison to a different law firm.
So I think my answer kind of depends on what's that organization that you're working in-house for, right?
I mean, I've been within the private sector with a company that had a very large legal team, 200 plus lawyers.
(23:54):
And we've got specialty in different subject matters.
And then I've been in organizations where I've been the solo.
So, you know, that's where sort of like the diversity in terms of what you're going to be dealing with will matter a lot.
But you either can be one of a hundred plus in a team.
(24:18):
And when you're on that side of doing everything, you end up becoming somewhat of a generalist, right?
You're dealing with all different types of issues, everything from employment issues to insurance to commercial legal contracts.
You know, no two days, like I said, is going to be the same because you're fielding all sorts of inquiries across your organization.
(24:42):
I need to provide answers.
So that's a little bit of what in-house has meant for me and my experience.
It sounded like even though you're doing compliance, you do get to wear many hats.
And before we got to start the podcast, we were talking about being more active with companies, having more active role.
(25:05):
You get to be on the operational side, whereas a lot of other companies have a lot of different roles that are divided up.
You get to be more active with the company that you work with.
Can you explain a little bit more about that?
Is that dependent on the company or is that just maybe a benefit of being part of that company and having that role?
(25:28):
I think what I would credit to my journey that I've had has been trying to have this interesting career and go where the curiosity is and also where the needs are of the organizations I've been a part of.
So I started in the UN with the legal department and that had opportunity to kind of shift into some operational roles as well, too, which put me out in the field.
(25:54):
When you're out in the field, you're working with the people that you're shouting to from the ivory tower to say, do this or do that or send us these contracts or comply with these measures.
And when you're actually out in the field and you're working alongside your front line, it's a very enlightening experience to understand how your policies that you're trying to affect and what you're trying to push down is landing.
(26:22):
So it's very humbling position.
So I think having had that exposure has led to my ability to work in a very different way with the business because I've been with the business.
So I understand what are the behaviors that are involved, what's pushing the decision making, do they have the tools, the resources, are the solutions that we're suggesting relevant for that particular challenge that they're trying to overcome?
(26:55):
How do we co-create the solutions?
How do they take ownership of compliance so much so that they integrate it in?
And I think the best reward or the best kind of compliment to that is coming back to having the business then say, hey, did anybody talk to Gitanjali about this?
(27:15):
Because if she's cleared it, then we're good to go.
Right.
So that's a benefit of having had that experience and that exposure and that's come from a lot of curiosity.
I'm like, you know, if there are these stretch missions to go out to the field, I'd be like, yep, I'll go.
I'll go see what that's like because I found that that actually makes me better counsel, better able to guide and then, you know, to kind of demystify a lot of it might be commonplace.
(27:45):
You know, oh, well, if we go to legal, they're just going to say no.
And I'm like, no, let's get to that.
Yes. How do we do that together?
I relate to that because earlier in my career, I felt like I made a ton of mistakes.
But when you get your hands dirty, you get to see how work earlier gets applied.
Maybe you're in a trial.
(28:05):
Maybe you're you're working with a client.
You get to see how the work you did previously is actually implemented, applied.
And then you get that chance to say, wait a second, the next time I need to make these corrections or I need to account for these separate different things.
And that opportunity is a great one because I'm assuming that at some point you go back and you realize, wait a second, maybe something that I felt strongly about wasn't correct or I need to modify it somehow.
(28:36):
Is that absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think when I mentioned earlier around collaboration and relationship building, that's the first place where I go to try to ensure that we've got this ability to sit around that table.
Right. So I don't go into a situation kind of hot.
You know, I don't go in like Miley Cyrus is wrecking ball and say, OK, no, no, scrap all of what you're doing.
(28:59):
Stop. We need to you know, you need to do it this way.
I go into brainstorming and then ask a lot of questions.
What's going on? What is it that you're trying to achieve?
Why is it you're trying to achieve?
Because if I can understand what's driving where the motivations are, I can look at, OK, well, maybe it's just a little tweak here or a clause we need to add here or one check that might need to come into being able to deliver on this particular strategy.
(29:24):
And I think in my career, I've only had to say no maybe two times.
We can really get to those places of then finding those guesses fairly quickly.
It feels like you are a team builder.
You solve a lot of problems.
You help people work better.
Any suggestions for anyone who maybe is in a leadership role and they need to figure out how do I get better with my team or how do I get to be a better leader?
(29:53):
Being curious to understand what it is that that you that your stakeholders actually need.
Another good part is taking those big bets on yourself.
I didn't know that I would end up being a leader in the way that I have evolved to be.
I never knew earlier on in my career if the paths I was taking were the right ones, but I just kept moving and I kept evolving.
(30:19):
Part of success and finding your place in leadership is also about failing along the way and failing and learning from those instances.
I'd say, you know, I mean, striving towards progress is where I think that bet is.
And to really chart that course for yourself and to define your own personal style for leadership.
(30:42):
There's so much material and so much content that is out there on, you know, you can take this form or that form.
But so much of it also needs to come from your learned experiences and where your curiosity and your passion drives you and figuring out what is that purpose that's going to drive you.
It's been something that has been that guiding beacon for me.
(31:05):
I didn't want to get to the end of my life and say, oh, what was my purpose?
Or did I, you know, generate impact in my life?
I've been fortunate to work with some amazing organizations that are extremely mission driven.
Yeah, these opportunities to learn.
I've had to be in those places where I've also worked more hours than necessary to prove myself.
(31:28):
And I think it's really about taking those bets on yourself.
Some of us get imposter syndrome at some point and we think we're not good enough here or at least not good enough to be a leader.
And we get either pushed into it or promoted into it.
Yeah. And Americare does great work for new legal professionals coming to this field and even non-lawyers coming to this field.
(31:50):
The beauty of compliance is it really draws upon so much expertise that sits outside of the legal realm as well, too.
Right. And so, you know, whether it is folks that are trained in conversant, in audit, finance or behavioral science or investigations.
I mean, there's so many fields that are actually informing a robust compliance program.
(32:15):
Where you're saying that a non-lawyer can help out as well.
Absolutely. So it's not a field only limited to lawyers.
There tends to be these camps one way or the other that think the profession should be lawyers.
And maybe that's necessary in some particular roles.
But otherwise, I think a compliance team actually benefits from so much of that experience and expertise that comes from other professions as well.
(32:39):
OK. Well, that's inspiring because anyone who thinks, well, I don't know if I want to do law school, but I do want to help.
Or I want to be in this kind of area.
Maybe I can check it out. Absolutely. Try to do it and see if it's right for me.
If I want to do the legal aspect, great.
If I want to do more of the reports, the analytical stuff, that's an option as well.
(33:00):
In your personal life, do you have a method of after a long day of working in this field that you distress hobbies,
things that you recommend of having some kind of work life balance?
Yeah, actually, if we can circle back to that Bollywood dancing, that would be amazing.
(33:20):
Absolutely. A funny story of how that came about when I was in university.
I somehow found myself in competitive dancing.
And it was competitive dancing well before where I think they are today with these very formalized competitions.
I was in the first of some of these competitions that took place in the US in this particular form of Indian folk dancing called Bhagra.
(33:48):
I've always enjoyed it. I left it at that time and I was like, OK, I need to be serious and I need to do something with my life outside of this interest of dancing.
That was a little bit the expectation that I didn't go to a fancy university to become a Bhangra dancer, but something that would pay bills.
Fast forward to landing here in DC.
(34:10):
And a friend of mine said there's this gallery and they're always looking for courses and you know, you dance pretty well.
You can teach a class. I thought that's crazy. I'm not formally trained.
And then I thought about it and I was like, but why couldn't I teach dance? I love it.
I love teaching. And it's a way for me to also share my culture with others.
(34:34):
There's an exercise component as well, too. And I'll be curious about the people who show up to my classes.
And that's kind of how that me being a dancing lawyer here in DC kind of took off.
So right now you're teaching and where can we go to attend one of your classes?
Yeah, absolutely. So I teach classes in Georgetown at a gallery.
(34:55):
We use the space, so it's a nice ambiance and environment to be in where you get to look at beautiful art.
There's no mirrors, so you don't have to worry about your skills.
I'm very open to, you know, everybody just come as they are and do what you want.
I would totally prefer this over the karaoke after the networking meetings.
(35:17):
Yeah. Let's go dance.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think dance is one of those things that's super expressive.
We talked a little bit earlier about finding your voice.
I think it's also finding your voice in your rhythm, right?
Like, how is it that you want to move?
How is it you want to appear?
And how do you want to share in this experience? Right.
(35:39):
It's a really fun courses.
We teach a routine to a particular song and show them then the contrast of like how it's done in Bollywood,
like how it appeared in a Bollywood film.
So then they get to enjoy the music.
They've learned something a little bit different.
Very nice. And then we adjust.
And it's more for play rather than it is performative in any which way.
(36:03):
Because it can be just work, work, work, you know, just 100 percent.
I mean, one of the things that I learned along my career is also prioritizing your well-being, right?
And especially working in the space of like on the international stage or when you are that solo team, right?
You're often carrying this weight.
Literally, it feels like the weight of the world on your shoulders.
(36:27):
And that's not sustainable.
And if you're out there trying to like project sustainability and growth for your organization and you're not able to give that to yourself,
then you're in discord. You don't have that alignment.
So I think it's very important to have outside interest and not wait for that day when you retire or when the kids go off to school.
(36:51):
Find what that is.
Explore.
I also had to kind of rack my brain when we all went into covid lockdown.
And I was like, now what do we do?
Because you were so people worrying in it.
Right. And then when you're cut off from that, it's like, what am I interested in?
What do I do to pass time?
Because you don't want to like work to be consuming all that excess.
(37:14):
It must be very difficult when you're connecting with so many people and then suddenly you can't.
Yes.
Any advice that you could give to say, here's what I would do as a leader to encourage people to come back in.
Besides the pizza Fridays or lunches, there's a lot of leaders who maybe don't know how to inspire their people to want to just work one on one in person.
(37:41):
Because I think you don't really appreciate it until you are in person.
That's one of the reasons why I think this podcast feels a lot better being in person, getting to feel that expression and that passion that you have for your field.
Absolutely.
I appreciate what leaders have been trying to do to bring workforces back to the office.
(38:02):
It's also about meeting your workforce and in what works best for them as well, too.
Right. I think so much of the way that we operated sort of pre covid to now is that having that trust in that ability to
give your workforce the space that they need to operate and to work independently, but also sort of cultivating and finding those opportunities of where you actually can better build rapport with your team across the organization as well.
(38:32):
So I mean, what you just mentioned, you know, the fact of like us recording this podcast and the three of us sitting in a room together is very different from when you do these virtually.
So finding where those opportunities might be to have younger staff come in for networking events, being there as part of it and then showing this is how we operate when we go out to network.
(38:55):
These are very important skills that you need to be able to cultivate and build those relationships.
So not at the sacrifice of having those relationships.
It's a fine balance to kind of operate.
I don't know if I'm making any sense, but it's really about finding, I guess, what is going to work for different people.
And there's not going to be a one size fits all approach.
And I think kind of moving away from that and really trying to then focus on how do we bring that to unison within the team, but also bring that along with your stakeholders, your external partners and across your organization, because there's no I would say like no replacements that have that have stuck.
(39:35):
And if there are, I would really love to know what the what those might be for, you know, those conversations you have around the water cooler to get to to understand.
And I'm not talking about in the gossip sense of things, right.
But like, what's going on?
What are you working on?
What are the challenges that you're facing or just having conversations that can facilitate connection?
(39:58):
Right.
So I think it's striving and looking for where those opportunities might be and then bringing those to your workforce.
In fact, I used to ride the elevator a lot back in my old firm.
One of the reasons why is because I found that sometimes when it was really hard to get a couple of minutes with someone, when I got to catch them in the elevator, it was that opportunity when I was like, hey, by the way, what's the status on this?
(40:26):
Absolutely.
By the way, I'm going to resend you that email and just like just enough time just to be like, OK, let's get it done.
Stop the elevator.
Just to have the chat with a partner.
But sometimes there's that value.
It's trying to adapt and change and trying to remember that there are younger people, junior people who are not at your level.
(40:49):
They also need that opportunity to be mentored, to understand what's going on in the team and to feel like they are part of the team.
Yeah. And I think I mean, that's part of leadership, right?
Modeling the behavior that you're also desiring to impart, right?
So you also being there, being present and being there when there are the networking events or being there to facilitate and making sure that you are facilitating those introductions along the way, finding those points and pointing out those places for connection.
(41:20):
One of the things we talked a little bit about the compliance socials and the way that I host them, I don't have people wearing name tags and saying where they work.
I'm like, that's your job.
You got to talk.
But if you aren't comfortable in that, because I also want it to be a space where people of all different sort of like social types.
Right. I mean, you mentioned me being a people person.
(41:41):
I'm a people person and I'm not people person when I want to be.
Right.
So being able to take a person over and say, hey, you both live in Capitol Hill, maybe you will find that you have you have something in common.
Right. I try to find those places of commonality that can encourage a conversation.
Have you ever feel like your social battery is running low?
(42:06):
Oh, 100 percent.
What do you do to recharge it?
I exercise.
I think that's a nice way to get out of my own head and help me recharge my batteries, spend time in nature when I can.
One of the other organizations that I worked for prior to joining Americare and Still Support is IC, a nonprofit that works in the space of mapping pollution in waterways.
(42:29):
I walk everywhere.
And with IC, it's actually making me walk further.
Every time I'm near the Potomac and spot trash in the river, I'm clicking photos to contribute the data that we are looking to collect so we can find solutions.
That's a way of also recharging, knowing that I'm still doing something meaningful, but I'm also doing something meaningful for myself as well, too.
(42:55):
And that's that's the important part on well-being and taking care of yourself as well.
In this area of compliance, is this an area where there is an opportunity for diversity?
Is there room for others for this area to grow?
Is this a great area that needs more women, more women of color, more people of diverse backgrounds?
(43:17):
I would say yes to everything.
It's a field that benefits tremendously from the diversity that it can have,
not only in terms of the competencies and expertise you would bring to enrich the field of compliance because it covers so much.
But I think that's where women being part of this profession, women of color being part of this profession is so important,
(43:45):
particularly as so much of our work and the world that we live in today we've seen over COVID is so interconnected.
Having this diverse, very sort of inclusive representation of who is sitting there to be your champions around ethics and integrity comes from having that representation of the voices.
(44:08):
I found it by happenstance, a role that I had applied for that had compliance in the title.
Because when I looked at the job description, I was like, but I've done all these things.
Maybe it just didn't have that title associated to it.
You know, policies, investigations, trainings, working with a number of stakeholders.
(44:30):
I've done all of this.
That's where, again, not limiting yourself, not finding those boxes that you need to tick,
but how many of those boxes, like outside of those boxes, can you operate in?
And I think so much of that comes from being adaptable and being able to pivot.
So join this profession.
(44:51):
I think it's one of the greatest.
Well, I hope some people out there have been inspired to join this area of law.
And I thank you for coming in and speaking to us.
But also, I look forward to seeing you at a future social event.
Absolutely.
Or at a Bollywood dance.
Oh, or a Bollywood, yeah.
I would love that.
Absolutely.
I don't know if when people are networking out there, they understand the importance of that middle person who gets to people and connects them.
(45:20):
Because sometimes you have a little bit of a struggle trying to find out who I can connect with.
And what you had said previously about being someone who finds two shared interests and you connect them is really appreciated.
And I've tried to follow suit whenever I find it, but I'm still learning as well.
But I think that's great.
(45:41):
And that's, if anything, hopefully encouraging for someone who might want to go to one of these networking events,
especially if you're there and meet and connect with other people, even if they don't know what this area of law is all about.
Hopefully, they've learned a little bit more to be encouraged to be out there.
So thank you so much for coming in today.
(46:01):
My pleasure. My pleasure.
And I'm just going to end on the fact that I'm still learning, too.
There is so much room for continued growth.
Don't be too quick to close doors.
Keep them open and run through them, skip through them.
Just keep moving.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you so much, Margarita and Kelby.
It's really been a pleasure to talk with you.
(46:23):
Thank you so much.
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