December 10, 2024 • 44 mins
Anna D. Aviles-Alfaro discusses her career journey which started as a mom right out of high school finding herself working as a legal secretary for a world-renowned international arbitration arbitrator. The support of those around her encouraged her to get her college degree and pursue a rewarding career as a paralegal first starting at the World Bank's ICSID institution and later in the private sector. Anna also shares her tips on work-life balance and how legal teams can work best with each other.
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Guest Info:
Anna D. Aviles-Alfaro, Senior Paralegal at Dechert LLP
Anna started as a legal secretary and found herself into the world of International Arbitration. She later transitioned as a paralegal at the World Bank's International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID) which is an institution for International Investment Arbitration Disputes. After a few years, she transitioned to the private sector where she is currently a leader in the paralegal sector for international disputes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome
(00:28):
back to the advocate next door. I'm Kewy Balena and I'm here today with my co-host.
Hello everybody my name is Margarita Rango. I know I say every guest is special but this
guest is definitely special to me. Earlier on in my career it was really hard to find anyone who
(00:50):
I could relate to who was in the paralegal sector and especially in the paralegal sector of
international arbitration. That's a very specific niche field. It's always great to have stories
and actually share and compare like what's going on and developing in the firms and in the world
and what cases are going forward. So I'm introducing Ana Aviles Alfaro and you've been in the legal
(01:16):
sector for quite a while. So you're our first I would say legal secretary turned paralegal.
What got you into the legal sector to begin with because you started as a legal secretary.
Was that like just straight out of school? First of all thank you for inviting me. I am so looking
forward to this and I've been looking forward to this for since you invited me. It's so great to
(01:39):
be here and I'm just so amazed that you are in this theater now. It's not surprising because you
are into everything Kelby but I am just so happy to be here. So when I graduated I actually got
married before I graduated high school and had very limited work options. I had taken a course
(02:02):
in high school to be a travel agent and so I wanted to work either for... Where were you in high school?
Herndon. Okay so you're local. Yeah I went to middle school in Ruston, Linestone Hughes middle
school in Ruston and then high school in Herndon. Did you like high school? I've only been in this
(02:26):
country for about three years when I started ninth grade. Oh wow. Where were you before then? I was
in El Salvador. Okay. So we moved here when I was 13. I wanted to get into the travel industry
either as a reservationist at a travel agency or an airline and I took a job with Pan Am and worked
(02:50):
in their reservation desk for a little bit like a few months. I don't remember the sequence of events
but Pan Am 103 happened. Was that a crash? It was a crash. It was bombed down over lacquer read. It
scared me and getting those calls were just heartbreaking. The little I remember is that we
(03:12):
went into this crisis mode and we had been trained on this crisis mode but it doesn't matter how much
strain you get when you are confronted with this catastrophes like that especially if you're not
prepared and especially if you're very young as I was at the time I was 18, 19 I don't remember now.
I went on my turn to leave and I did not go back to Pan Am and I thought all right well I have to
(03:38):
pivot into something here. I was also going through a lot of other personal issues at the time and had
just given birth to my child but in any event I decided to look for secretarial jobs. I had also
taken a secretary course in high school. Like typing? Exactly. I mean they actually used to
(04:03):
teach those things. I took a typewriting class at one point. It was just incredible they don't teach that anymore.
Anyway so I took typing and I was really really good. I mean I used to type really really fast
and so I applied for a job as solo practitioners in Arlington and they were looking for a bilingual
(04:26):
secretary and that was the first time that I thought I could really take advantage of speaking
another language and specifically Spanish. I interviewed and got the job and then from there
I met a lawyer in Georgetown, a law firm in Georgetown and he said to me if you want to do
(04:48):
anything in this business you have to change jobs. Especially if you want to make money in this
business you have to change jobs at least every two to three years and to the form every two to
three years I would always look for something and went from there to larger firms and discovered
that the bigger the firm you want to the better you get paid. So I started doing that. Let's see how big we can go.
(05:17):
I know right. It's like all right then and then I went to work at a law firm at Curtis Malay in DC when they were on K Street.
Started working with Keith Hyatt, a monumental figure in the arbitration world. He was a tribunal member.
Did you know what arbitration was before you got there? No idea what arbitration was.
(05:41):
You were just looking for I need a high-paying job. I don't care what you're doing.
This was a big firm. I was moving to a larger firm so I could get more money. So Keith was such a wonderful man.
And I started working with him. A few months in he said to me you should go to law school.
And I said well I don't even have a college degree. Am I going to go to law school without a college degree?
(06:07):
He said oh we need to fix that. You need to go get a college degree.
And that just stayed with me for years because I left Keith to go work at Wilmore Cutler and Pickering.
Where I work with this wonderful woman but she was such a workaholic and I worked 10-12 hours a day.
(06:27):
And so going to school was just not an option because you need time.
Especially if you are not willing to give up your daytime job.
While I was working with her, Keith moved to McDermid-William-Nemory.
And so Keith called me up and said hey come back and work with me.
(06:52):
And I thought this is my chance. So I spoke to him about what I wanted to do and I expressed my interest and desire to get a college degree.
I'll come work with you but I want to do this and would you be able to accommodate my schedule?
And he was all for it. So he also offered to write a recommendation letter.
(07:14):
No one in high school had encouraged me to pursue a college education so I had not taken any of the prerequisite tests.
So you had to start from scratch. You would have to find who can recommend you taking the SAT.
Which are the prerequisite tests? Because for our international audience it would be interesting for them to know.
(07:37):
Yeah so SATs and for non-English native speakers the TOEFL.
And so he wrote a recommendation letter, sent it directly to the school. I never saw it until later.
And I got a letter or call I don't remember from the Dean of Admissions office at George Mason.
(07:59):
The only school I applied to because it was local, local public and less expensive.
They gave me an interview to come in and tell them why I wanted to go to school and why I should.
You must have been nervous.
I was nervous as hell. It was listen I wanted to make a really good impression and most of all I wanted to convince somebody to give me a chance.
(08:23):
Because I was very aware that not having those required exams was a big thing.
So I went to my interview and long story short although I have told you the long version.
I got in and I was all set you know Keith and I worked a schedule that would allow me to go to school and work.
(08:45):
I started in the fall but about six months after I started school Keith died.
And I didn't know what was going to happen to me because he was sort of my protector at McDermott.
And he really believed in you.
And he believed in me. I mean the whole point of me moving to McDermott and to go back to work with him was that he was going to be flexible with my schedule.
(09:12):
And I wasn't sure I was going to be able to find the flexibility with somebody else.
So after he died HR at McDermott said we will give you a chance to interview for any open positions in the firm.
But obviously they couldn't guarantee that I would get you know the same deal if you would.
(09:33):
Because what it means that you had to switch to a different practice group.
I didn't know who I was going to be working with and one of the flexibilities that I had with Keith was that I could come in really early so that I could leave early.
My first class started at 420 and so I oftentimes left the office like 345 to make it to campus.
(09:56):
I went to work with this woman partner in the IP group and I explained to her that I had already started school and that I really wanted to continue.
And she was so supportive and she said absolutely.
That's great.
Absolutely and so I was able to do school and work at the same time and six years later I graduated.
(10:21):
And when I graduated now by now I had been doing legal secretary work for a long time.
My daughter was two years old when I started working as a legal secretary and she just turned 35.
It's been a while.
During the legal career as a mom is no easy feat.
No, no, add that, you know, trying to get a college degree so you can actually move up in the world.
(10:46):
So you're going to school, you're a mom, you're with a whole new different practice area.
Right.
I know this is probably a dumb question but I think maybe some people out in the audience wouldn't know what a legal secretary actually does.
Like what keeps you busy or just generally, like what does a legal secretary do?
(11:09):
Listen, back in the day when I was a legal secretary, first of all, I had one partner.
Okay.
And in fact when I and maybe one associate and maybe two associates.
And we're talking about a time that there's less technology.
Less technology and secretaries were more involved in the day-to-day work.
(11:31):
This is when lawyers used to handwrite things and give you their handwritten notes for you to type them.
You were getting the dictation recordings?
Yes, yes, this is when they also dictated into the little dictaphone and googled the dictaphone.
So I would transcribe from either dictation tapes or handwritten notes.
(11:54):
In fact, Keith had a typewriter in his office and he would type his stuff.
He had beautiful handwriting and I understood his handwriting perfectly well.
But he would type his stuff and feed me those for his decisions, awards, and memorials when he acted as counsel in cases.
I took dictation and transcribed notes and got coffee for my boss.
(12:17):
I fed lunch many times for my bosses.
I proofread and typed letters.
I reviewed and finalized billing.
I did all the bills.
Wow.
And I get calendars.
I answer their phone.
So you're really close working one-to-one with the attorney?
Oh yes, one-to-one.
(12:39):
I used to answer all of my boss's calls.
He never or she never answered their own line.
It's so weird to think about that now.
I can't.
Now you get the direct or even their cell phone.
I know exactly.
I mean most clients now communicate with their lawyers on their cell phones, WhatsApp,
and I don't know what other applications we have out there.
(13:02):
But yeah, so that was that.
Nowadays, a legal secretary, they have like five, six partners and associates don't even
have their own secretaries now.
And I don't know if you guys at your firm.
Yeah, it seems that it's changed a lot in the last maybe 10 years.
I think with technology, everybody writes their own, or at least expected to write dictating.
(13:26):
Exactly.
Unless they're using Siri or something.
Yeah, dictation.
Yeah, they're long gone.
Nobody uses the fax.
I mean that used to be a thing where you had to wait by the fax.
Yes.
And just make sure that...
Feed the pages and make sure they're in jam so that the pages came across clear at the other end.
When I worked at the bank, we used to get letters via fax.
(13:50):
That's how people file their things.
I remember sending a 200 page document via fax.
And calling ahead to make sure the fax machine had enough paper.
Right.
I remember getting those.
Or making sure it didn't get cut off.
At that point, I'd say, at what page did it get cut off so I can re-send it from there.
I know.
(14:10):
So now the position of legal secretary, I think has changed quite a bit from when I did it.
But when I was at Wilmot Cutler, the woman I worked with was very busy.
And one of the tasks I was responsible for was to look at newspapers and to cut out any news clippings
(14:32):
about industry, the area that she focused on, clients, any news clips that talked about or
mentioned her clients, any of her clients, potential clients.
People that she was actually courting.
So client development and business development.
Right.
All in one.
But back in the day, you're clipping the news article.
(14:55):
Literally cutting and putting in a piece of paper so that she would have those handy.
And now you can subscribe to a newsletter.
I know.
Which is different.
And now you can subscribe and also Google alerts that mention your client.
And then there it is. People have no idea how much work it was to stay on top of everything.
(15:18):
And I think maybe because of technology, but some people forget how to develop their client,
what they need to look for.
They just expect the client's going to tell us when there's a problem.
But sometimes you have to be proactive.
Exactly. And she was very proactive.
I picked up dry cleaning.
I made bank deposits.
I kept secrets.
(15:39):
Because legal secretary, the word secretary.
You know a lot.
Yes, the word secretary.
Well, the word secretary comes from a person that keeps secrets.
It's true.
I had no idea.
I kept a lot of secrets.
I like moments when I can gather with people and start to share our secrets.
What do you know?
(16:00):
Yeah. So I did all of that.
And I mentioned to people now that I used to do banking for my boss.
And they're like, what? You would do that?
You sell their paycheck?
I'm like, oh girl, I sell more than paychecks.
I think some people may not realize that the reason that you're doing all this stuff is
(16:23):
because really you are helping that attorney stay on focus.
Yeah. And free to do work.
To do work, right?
So it's something they need to be on a meeting.
They can't pick up their dry cleaning between nine and five for exactly them.
Exactly.
Or go to the bank before it closes.
And back then, the banking hours...
Banks close at two back in the day.
(16:44):
Yeah. They close.
So you had to go to the bank, you had to get cash and stuff.
And now even hail a cab.
I remember handling a cab and just asking them, paying them extra to just wait.
Stay there.
Right. Exactly.
I used to get cabs for Keith, especially because he was always going, traveling.
And even when I moved to the IP group, they were always going somewhere.
(17:05):
And yeah, I mean, it's like rush, rush, rush.
And I didn't want her to waste any time hailing a cab or just waiting because it...
In the movies, you come out and there's a taxi waiting.
Yeah, that never happened.
Not in real life.
You have to walk up and down.
That doesn't happen with Uber.
That don't let you...
I mean, this is way before Uber time.
(17:26):
But all of those things you do and you did, I did at least for the people that I worked with
so that they would have time and their time was very valuable and very expensive.
So I remember then meeting you.
I'm pretty sure that I was doing some kind of filing, but back in the day, you had to
(17:48):
submit everything by hard copy.
You had to have 10 copies of something.
And they were very large filings.
So I remember hailing cabs.
And at some point I had like five cabs going with an attorney in each cab, all bringing
them to the World Bank, trying to get through security, through the upstairs, all this.
It's a mess.
But at that point you finally get through the door of the World Bank, which is where
(18:13):
I think you were working at the time was Ixn.
Right.
And...
When we met, yes.
Yes.
That was Ixn.
And there you are, I guess, greeting or...
In some cases I would see some of the attorneys that are like, oh, not another one.
And they would see all these just boxes and boxes of stuff.
Of like filing with exhibits and authorities, all this stuff, just because these were massive
(18:35):
filings.
And here you are taking on these cases.
How did you end up getting into the World Bank?
And what was your impression when you started there?
So getting into the World Bank is another story.
When I worked with Keith at Curtis Malay, he introduced me to a bunch of people, including
(18:57):
Naseeb Siyadi, who was the Deputy Secretary General, the first Deputy Secretary General
at Ixn.
Keith introduced me to Naseeb and I kept in touch even after Keith died.
By 2007, when I started at the World Bank at Ixn, Keith had been dead for seven years
(19:20):
now.
So when I met somebody who worked at the bank and they mentioned that Naseeb had been
appointed Deputy Secretary General and that now he was overseeing the day to day activities
of Ixn, I wrote him a note saying, congratulations on your appointment.
(19:43):
And he in response, attracted me down to where I was.
To the firm I was working at and said, yeah, I just got here.
He had been in the post for a few months by then.
He said, let's have coffee.
I want to talk to you about you coming to work with us.
Wow.
And this is before LinkedIn and just connecting.
(20:04):
So he's like, he actually had to track you down.
Yeah, and I wrote him a handwritten note, people.
I wrote him a note.
There's no magic in handwriting.
There is.
There is.
And he got it.
In fact, I wrote it and I gave it to him.
I wrote it and I gave the note to the person I had met at the bank because he was then
going to hand deliver it to Naseeb and he did.
(20:26):
And I'm so thankful to that person.
It was not as easy as I make it sound now because it took some time to actually
go through the process because I had to go through the process like everyone else.
But I remember coming to the exit office and he said, let me introduce you to some people.
(20:47):
And Gonzalo Flores is coming down the hall.
And I know Gonzalo because I had worked with Gonzalo when Keith was arbitrator in cases
where he was secretary of the tribunal.
And I see Gonzalo and of course, we immediately recognize each other and hug each other.
And we hadn't seen each other for a while.
(21:08):
And Naseeb is like, well, see, you know him already.
This is going to be easy.
That you belong here.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly what he said.
He said, well, let me introduce you to Javier Castro, who was then the sort of like the HR person.
Who's also still there.
Who's also still there.
They've been there for years.
Still there.
Listen, yeah, it's hard to leave.
It's hard to leave.
(21:29):
Anyway, a few months later, we made it happen.
And I joined Ixid about a year and a half after I graduated from George Mason.
And you joined Ixid at a time that Ixid were really exploding.
Yeah.
Caseload just started growing and growing.
So you probably saw it also grow in your department.
(21:50):
Yeah.
And you joined as a legal secretary?
No, by then I joined Ixid as a part of legal.
But when I arrived, it was a smaller office. Now there's so many staff members there.
How long were you at Ixid?
At Ixid, I was there for a little over five years, maybe.
(22:11):
Yeah, when I arrived, we had a lot of cases and we had a much smaller staff.
And I think there was only three paralegals.
Wow.
And all of the cases.
No.
All of the cases. We had groups. We had a Spanish group, French group, and English group.
Now there's like subgroups of those groups because they're just so large.
(22:36):
I used to have a list of all the cases where I was assigned the paralegal.
And at one point, I had over 50 cases.
Wow. That's too many.
Insane.
Wow.
But you know, yeah, but remember that at this time, everything was done in paper.
Right.
And everything was done in multiple copies.
(22:59):
I remember in one particular case,
Whiting case was counsel for claimants. It was multiple claimants.
They submitted their memorial and I received 56 boxes.
I think I know what cases is.
That sounds fun.
Because I was on the opposing side.
Poor you now.
And I received, and I guess it was my copy, and I received like maybe 15 boxes.
(23:24):
And I was like, what is this?
So we used to get two copies for the center and one copy for each arbitrator.
Wow.
56 boxes. I mean, that is a lot of boxes.
And I remember then the delivery person, you know, this thing's back in the day,
(23:44):
they would get delivered to our mail center.
I used to go through the front door.
Like I used to make an excuse because I was just like, I'm not going through the mail.
I need to give this to somebody.
Some of us will go up and down just carrying boxes in our hand.
Yeah. Well, you were lucky.
I mean, we never disencourage people from doing that.
(24:05):
Well, but that was actually the magic of trying to befriend the paralegal.
I have your cell phone.
I'm coming up to see you.
Exactly.
I brought some cookies.
I was going to say.
I actually bring some cookies, some donuts or something.
Bring cookies.
Cookies can take you a long way.
A long way.
As long as they're $25 or less, you feel free to bring cookies.
(24:27):
When they deliver the boxes, they had this huge crate and I'm like, just pile them up
right here.
And it took like a hallway and pile them up.
And some parties, some law firms were very nice and they would number.
They would say set one, box one off, whatever.
(24:48):
Some people were just not as nice.
So I would have to open every box.
Right. Just to figure out what's in.
To figure out what was in it.
Yeah.
And then to create the sets to send off to the tribunal.
At some point, I learned that you had some sort of method that wasn't really written.
And of course, everybody's learning at this point.
(25:11):
But we would give the original box that was going to be in your shelf without any kind
of binders.
And so they'll all be in red wells and labeled and stuff.
And then the copy going to the tribunal, we put in binders and then every box would have
a number and put a label on something like that.
Whatever it was.
And that's when I started learning.
It really, really helps to know your audience because if I can make it easy for you and
(25:34):
all you have to do is slap it forward.
Right.
You can make it happen.
Oh my God.
We're always so glad to get those boxes with the red wells, the copies, because I'm doing,
first of all, I'm doing binders, taking documents out of binders to put them into a red well.
Right.
So you accumulate this insane amount of empty binders that nobody knows what to do.
(26:00):
I mean, I can't tell you how many binders, empty binders we had.
I think it took a picture of a massive just create of empty binders at some point.
And it's like, this is the reason why we can't, we have to conform to how you do things.
And I wish it would have been written down.
It wasn't written down until much, much later.
(26:22):
But yeah, you just have to know your audience.
Those things are the result of communicating.
Right.
And also the result of doing a lot of things until you get it right.
Right.
So.
And you were also under the World Bank's rules.
So there are things that even though you didn't want, it was the World Bank's rules.
(26:45):
It was also in exit rules that X amount of copies needed to be sent to the center.
And then the center would then dispatch those to tribunal members.
So this is a great example of
where sometimes your actual practice can affect the legal writing,
whereas the paralegals were finding themselves either unclipping, decrypting USBs and all this stuff
(27:11):
can later affect how things are written because then somebody says, you know what,
we need to rewrite these rules.
Yeah, exactly.
Amend different things.
I'm surprised that it took as long as it did to rewrite those exit rules.
Is it very different to be a paralegal in a law firm than a paralegal in exit?
(27:31):
Yes.
Although the foundation is the same, I think those things don't change.
You still have paralegal skills that carry, but it is very different.
One, as just alluded by Kelby, is that you have a set of rules that the institution,
you just have to follow.
(27:52):
In law firms, it's different because their focus isn't necessarily on mandates,
but rather what's best for our clients and how we can utilize best the funds that they entrust us with
and minimize unnecessary costs because it's expensive, you know, getting documents out of
(28:14):
binders.
I mean, it's time consuming.
I mean, there were days when that's all I did.
It's take things out of binders and put in boxes.
It's also, I mean, a law firm, you get paid better for one thing.
The perks are better.
Right.
The World Bank is a non-profit.
Thanks.
Let's remind everybody.
(28:34):
Even though bank is in the name.
I know.
Oh my God.
When I started working at the World Bank, I told my mom that I had a new job at the World Bank
and she asked me if I was going to be a teller.
That's funny.
Well, funny enough, they never actually, the World Bank never had an actual ATM machine until
maybe five, six years ago.
(28:57):
There wasn't anywhere you could get cash out at the World Bank.
At the bank.
And I thought that was funny because there's a cafeteria there and there's like a little shop
center there.
You didn't see it, but there's always been an ATM.
It was just not visible to the general public because the credit union is in the main complex
(29:19):
and there is an ATM near the credit union.
You had to work there to get access to the actual ATM.
Exactly.
You just had to know where it was.
You had to know where it was.
It's near the cafeteria, the main cafeteria.
And you finally left Ixed, the World Bank, and you came to the private sector, but you get to
have that interaction back with the attorneys, whereas at the World Bank, you were just working
(29:44):
with the institution, not really working with any cases directly.
Is that more of what you wanted to do is work with the actual cases?
When I left Ixed, I really got to the point where I didn't see my career going anywhere.
I mean, I have a lot of respect for everyone that works at Ixed and especially my former
(30:06):
paralegal colleagues at Ixed.
I just wanted more and I had sacrificed so much in six years that it took me to finish
university and I wanted to be stimulated and I felt that repacking boxes was not going to do it.
Now, things may have changed.
(30:27):
I don't know what type of assignments they're doing now, but when I was there,
every once in a while, I got to review a translation.
I also got as much as I was trusted to do and as much as I had proven that I was capable of doing.
I wanted to move up the ladder.
(30:49):
I mean, when you start in a law firm, there's a lot of levels of paralegal and I wanted to move up
and have a senior paralegal title, which I knew I wasn't going to have at Ixed.
And I've been gone for 10 years and I don't think anybody that is still there when I was there
(31:10):
and still there now has their title changed or they're great for that matter in terms of pay.
The pay helps.
The pay helps besides the title.
You don't want just the title.
I know, right? Exactly.
Although if I had gotten the title, I probably would have stayed, who knows.
After I left, I discovered this whole new world and I started traveling
(31:32):
and going places. I mean, I have traveled so much.
For anyone who might be in high school or maybe a college graduate,
a lot of them don't know that there are alternatives.
At this point, do you think going through the legal secretary or a paralegal route
would be rewarding if they're actually trying to get exposure to the law?
I have trained so many young paralegals who are on their way to law school.
(32:00):
And I worked at a firm where they hire paralegals knowing that paralegals would stay for
one or two years and then move on to law school.
It worked for them. It continues to work for them.
I have trained so many paralegals on their way to law school.
They just want to get a taste or feel for what law firm life is like.
(32:23):
But paralegal work is very rewarding and is less expensive.
I will never discourage anyone who wants to be a lawyer from becoming a lawyer and from going to law school.
If I had gone to school much earlier, college that is much earlier,
I probably would have gone to law school myself.
(32:45):
But circumstances, I graduated a year before my daughter was to start school herself.
And I couldn't afford to have law school tuition and college tuition for my child.
But being a paralegal is a great job that gives you the taste of law firm life.
You get paid very well.
(33:07):
Most law firms require a four-year college degree.
When you want to do it, you always find a way of doing it.
There's so much financial aid available now for high school students who want to go to college.
It's a great job.
And you just don't have to work the crazy hours that lawyers do.
(33:30):
I mean, lawyers, their minimum yearly hours is huge.
And they're salary people.
But the time they divide the amount of money they get paid by the hours they work,
they're making less money per hour than paralegal would.
(33:53):
It's fascinating how that, yeah, if you do the math, maybe a first year associate with the debt that they're paying back.
Exactly.
It's incredible.
And now, yeah, eventually...
They're not breaking even until like maybe they're six or seven.
Exactly.
And then eventually you will make a lot of money.
But there's so much...
It's just being a lawyer.
If you're thinking of going to law school because you want to make a lot of money, think twice.
(34:16):
Rethink.
Rethink that because let me tell you, the only way you're going to make a lot of money
if you go to law school is if you graduate at the top of your class,
go to a very expensive law school and get a job in a very, very big law firm or a top law firm.
That is able to pay the salaries that newly graduated law students are demanding.
(34:45):
As a paralegal, you get to experience very similar things.
You are involved in cases, you travel with the team, you work with the team.
And by the way, you get paid overtime and you can make a lot of money.
As far as being a legal secretary, here's the thing.
As far as being a legal secretary, here's what I have to say about that.
(35:08):
Being a legal secretary works if you have a family or if you're planning on starting a family.
Secretaries have very set hours and that is very good if you have a family because you have to get home,
pick up the kids or have dinner on the table for your children.
It's great.
But we always want to aspire to more.
(35:30):
And yeah, go to law school if you want to.
But also consider being a paralegal.
We are in, we're always going to be in demand because there's always going to be work
that cannot be billed at a lawyer rate and needs to be done.
And so law firms will always want to hire a paralegal to do work that
(35:57):
first or second year associates would have to do if you're not there.
Clients don't want to pay for a first or second year lawyer to site check
or to put together binders.
They just don't.
And secretaries have seven partners to tend to.
They don't have time to do binders.
(36:17):
And sometimes the work can get a little bit stressful or overwhelmed.
Do you have ways of dealing with stress?
I learned early on that somebody in the team had to remain calm at all times
because otherwise everything goes to hell.
(36:39):
So I chose to be that person.
The way I see things is like, there's always ways that things can go wrong or bad or what have you.
But it's not the end of the world.
You know, people, it's not worth you getting stressed out over a wrong exhibit number or
(37:01):
wrong document when you can just fix it.
So, you know, avoid the stress and just fix it.
It comes with experience, I guess.
I mean, I'm sure that earlier on in my career, I used to stress over everything.
I don't now.
I just don't because like I said, somebody has to remain calm because
whatever it is that you are in the middle of doing needs to get done.
(37:24):
And so you just have to work through it and get it done, right?
But I do do things for myself that help me de-stress, if you would.
You know, usually after a filing or after a hearing, I take a day off or a day or two off.
And I do nothing.
I've been known to just sit at home and watch TV all day and watch movies or what have you.
(37:48):
Because that's the way I recharge.
I book dates with my grandchildren for the purpose of because when I'm with them,
not only do I forget about the world around me, but they help me be like,
you were doing things that don't need me to think about things.
(38:11):
You know what I mean?
It's like I'm doing, I'm playing with them.
You're just not, you're not thinking.
It doesn't require a lot of thought to do whatever it is that you're doing.
And that is helpful to me.
I get myself on their calendars on days after a filing or a hearing for that purpose.
And they just help me recharge.
(38:31):
You know, book a spa day.
That sounds nice.
Yeah.
Or I mean, it's, you know, you've earned it.
Mistakes will be made.
We're all humans.
We make mistakes.
And as long as you fix them, as long as you own your mistakes,
it's not the end of the world.
If there's a, I guess, maybe a brand new associate starting at a firm and they have no idea,
(38:52):
they've never worked with a paralegal.
Is there any kind of advice you would give them?
So I have been in that situation.
I have been asked to give advice to a brand new associate.
When I was a legal secretary, I used to be part of the welcome week.
It was the first week of their job and I was asked to come in and talk about how
(39:18):
brand new associates can utilize assistance, how they can delegate work and what to expect
and what is okay to ask your secretary to do or not to do.
I recently got tasked in a case.
There were just two brand new associates.
They had no idea what they were doing.
And the first time we met, they said, Anna, what can we do to make this better?
(39:46):
And they said, we've set up this box folder where we're all working.
And I looked at the box folder and it was a hot mess.
And the first thing I said to them was, you need to let somebody organize this,
because if you have a well organized file system here, your life is going to be so much easier.
(40:06):
So working for the first time with a paralegal or legal assistant,
just ask them what works because you're new.
You haven't experienced it yet, especially if you're working with an experienced paralegal.
They know what works and they will tell you what mistakes to avoid.
(40:30):
They will help you save yourself a lot of time.
Going the other way, if somebody is a brand new paralegal going into this world of law firm life,
they have no idea what to expect.
Perhaps they're interviewing the profession to figure out if they want to be a lawyer
or if they want to do something else.
What kind of advice would you tell to a new paralegal entering,
(40:52):
if it never worked with attorneys, what should they expect?
What should they know?
This may sound awful, but the first thing is that
you're not a lawyer.
You may want to be a lawyer, but if you are interviewing for a paralegal job,
you are going to get to do paralegal work.
Don't pretend that you know everything.
(41:13):
Be flexible and be amenable to do whatever it takes to get the job done.
If the job is to do a folder, to do a binder, just do the best damn binder you've ever done.
If the job is to go make copies, make the best copies you've ever produced.
Do your best to do the best work.
(41:35):
People are always watching.
They will remember.
They will remember the quality of work you produce.
Focus on what you're doing.
Read things twice.
The first pass at an email with instructions, I can tell you, you will get 45%
and I'm giving you a lot of credit, 45% of what is going to happen.
45% of what it actually asks you to do.
(41:58):
Because the other 55%, you're going to read in the second time you get to read that email.
Read things twice before you start working on the assignment.
Because you will find, and this happened to me earlier on in my career,
I would read things so quickly and I would get to work.
And then when I finished, I would read the email again and then I realized that the very
(42:19):
last line of the email said, and by the way, this is how I want this done.
And it was completely different than how I had done.
It happens to me still.
So read the instructions twice.
Take good notes.
When you go to a meeting where the tasks are discussed, take notes, get back to your desk,
(42:45):
write an email, summarize what you heard and get confirmation that's what you've been asked to do.
You want to be efficient. You want to do good work.
You want to start making good impression on the people you work with because they will invite you
to be part of the next team, the next case they get.
(43:06):
You will become the go-to person and you're always going to have work.
Well, that's great advice.
I appreciate you being on the show.
I mean, I know we're covering a large range of topics, but it's great to have you here.
Especially on a sober day.
That's right.
Oh my God, this has been so much fun.
(43:28):
Oh, thank you so much for such a great pleasure.
And thanks for the invitation.
It's been great to have you here.
Now it's been wonderful to be here and I can't wait to hear how we all sound at the end.
Welcome
(00:28):
back to the advocate next door. I'm Kewy Balena and I'm here today with my co-host.
Hello everybody my name is Margarita Rango. I know I say every guest is special but this
guest is definitely special to me. Earlier on in my career it was really hard to find anyone who
(00:50):
I could relate to who was in the paralegal sector and especially in the paralegal sector of
international arbitration. That's a very specific niche field. It's always great to have stories
and actually share and compare like what's going on and developing in the firms and in the world
and what cases are going forward. So I'm introducing Ana Aviles Alfaro and you've been in the legal
(01:16):
sector for quite a while. So you're our first I would say legal secretary turned paralegal.
What got you into the legal sector to begin with because you started as a legal secretary.
Was that like just straight out of school? First of all thank you for inviting me. I am so looking
forward to this and I've been looking forward to this for since you invited me. It's so great to
(01:39):
be here and I'm just so amazed that you are in this theater now. It's not surprising because you
are into everything Kelby but I am just so happy to be here. So when I graduated I actually got
married before I graduated high school and had very limited work options. I had taken a course
(02:02):
in high school to be a travel agent and so I wanted to work either for... Where were you in high school?
Herndon. Okay so you're local. Yeah I went to middle school in Ruston, Linestone Hughes middle
school in Ruston and then high school in Herndon. Did you like high school? I've only been in this
(02:26):
country for about three years when I started ninth grade. Oh wow. Where were you before then? I was
in El Salvador. Okay. So we moved here when I was 13. I wanted to get into the travel industry
either as a reservationist at a travel agency or an airline and I took a job with Pan Am and worked
(02:50):
in their reservation desk for a little bit like a few months. I don't remember the sequence of events
but Pan Am 103 happened. Was that a crash? It was a crash. It was bombed down over lacquer read. It
scared me and getting those calls were just heartbreaking. The little I remember is that we
(03:12):
went into this crisis mode and we had been trained on this crisis mode but it doesn't matter how much
strain you get when you are confronted with this catastrophes like that especially if you're not
prepared and especially if you're very young as I was at the time I was 18, 19 I don't remember now.
I went on my turn to leave and I did not go back to Pan Am and I thought all right well I have to
(03:38):
pivot into something here. I was also going through a lot of other personal issues at the time and had
just given birth to my child but in any event I decided to look for secretarial jobs. I had also
taken a secretary course in high school. Like typing? Exactly. I mean they actually used to
(04:03):
teach those things. I took a typewriting class at one point. It was just incredible they don't teach that anymore.
Anyway so I took typing and I was really really good. I mean I used to type really really fast
and so I applied for a job as solo practitioners in Arlington and they were looking for a bilingual
(04:26):
secretary and that was the first time that I thought I could really take advantage of speaking
another language and specifically Spanish. I interviewed and got the job and then from there
I met a lawyer in Georgetown, a law firm in Georgetown and he said to me if you want to do
(04:48):
anything in this business you have to change jobs. Especially if you want to make money in this
business you have to change jobs at least every two to three years and to the form every two to
three years I would always look for something and went from there to larger firms and discovered
that the bigger the firm you want to the better you get paid. So I started doing that. Let's see how big we can go.
(05:17):
I know right. It's like all right then and then I went to work at a law firm at Curtis Malay in DC when they were on K Street.
Started working with Keith Hyatt, a monumental figure in the arbitration world. He was a tribunal member.
Did you know what arbitration was before you got there? No idea what arbitration was.
(05:41):
You were just looking for I need a high-paying job. I don't care what you're doing.
This was a big firm. I was moving to a larger firm so I could get more money. So Keith was such a wonderful man.
And I started working with him. A few months in he said to me you should go to law school.
And I said well I don't even have a college degree. Am I going to go to law school without a college degree?
(06:07):
He said oh we need to fix that. You need to go get a college degree.
And that just stayed with me for years because I left Keith to go work at Wilmore Cutler and Pickering.
Where I work with this wonderful woman but she was such a workaholic and I worked 10-12 hours a day.
(06:27):
And so going to school was just not an option because you need time.
Especially if you are not willing to give up your daytime job.
While I was working with her, Keith moved to McDermid-William-Nemory.
And so Keith called me up and said hey come back and work with me.
(06:52):
And I thought this is my chance. So I spoke to him about what I wanted to do and I expressed my interest and desire to get a college degree.
I'll come work with you but I want to do this and would you be able to accommodate my schedule?
And he was all for it. So he also offered to write a recommendation letter.
(07:14):
No one in high school had encouraged me to pursue a college education so I had not taken any of the prerequisite tests.
So you had to start from scratch. You would have to find who can recommend you taking the SAT.
Which are the prerequisite tests? Because for our international audience it would be interesting for them to know.
(07:37):
Yeah so SATs and for non-English native speakers the TOEFL.
And so he wrote a recommendation letter, sent it directly to the school. I never saw it until later.
And I got a letter or call I don't remember from the Dean of Admissions office at George Mason.
(07:59):
The only school I applied to because it was local, local public and less expensive.
They gave me an interview to come in and tell them why I wanted to go to school and why I should.
You must have been nervous.
I was nervous as hell. It was listen I wanted to make a really good impression and most of all I wanted to convince somebody to give me a chance.
(08:23):
Because I was very aware that not having those required exams was a big thing.
So I went to my interview and long story short although I have told you the long version.
I got in and I was all set you know Keith and I worked a schedule that would allow me to go to school and work.
(08:45):
I started in the fall but about six months after I started school Keith died.
And I didn't know what was going to happen to me because he was sort of my protector at McDermott.
And he really believed in you.
And he believed in me. I mean the whole point of me moving to McDermott and to go back to work with him was that he was going to be flexible with my schedule.
(09:12):
And I wasn't sure I was going to be able to find the flexibility with somebody else.
So after he died HR at McDermott said we will give you a chance to interview for any open positions in the firm.
But obviously they couldn't guarantee that I would get you know the same deal if you would.
(09:33):
Because what it means that you had to switch to a different practice group.
I didn't know who I was going to be working with and one of the flexibilities that I had with Keith was that I could come in really early so that I could leave early.
My first class started at 420 and so I oftentimes left the office like 345 to make it to campus.
(09:56):
I went to work with this woman partner in the IP group and I explained to her that I had already started school and that I really wanted to continue.
And she was so supportive and she said absolutely.
That's great.
Absolutely and so I was able to do school and work at the same time and six years later I graduated.
(10:21):
And when I graduated now by now I had been doing legal secretary work for a long time.
My daughter was two years old when I started working as a legal secretary and she just turned 35.
It's been a while.
During the legal career as a mom is no easy feat.
No, no, add that, you know, trying to get a college degree so you can actually move up in the world.
(10:46):
So you're going to school, you're a mom, you're with a whole new different practice area.
Right.
I know this is probably a dumb question but I think maybe some people out in the audience wouldn't know what a legal secretary actually does.
Like what keeps you busy or just generally, like what does a legal secretary do?
(11:09):
Listen, back in the day when I was a legal secretary, first of all, I had one partner.
Okay.
And in fact when I and maybe one associate and maybe two associates.
And we're talking about a time that there's less technology.
Less technology and secretaries were more involved in the day-to-day work.
(11:31):
This is when lawyers used to handwrite things and give you their handwritten notes for you to type them.
You were getting the dictation recordings?
Yes, yes, this is when they also dictated into the little dictaphone and googled the dictaphone.
So I would transcribe from either dictation tapes or handwritten notes.
(11:54):
In fact, Keith had a typewriter in his office and he would type his stuff.
He had beautiful handwriting and I understood his handwriting perfectly well.
But he would type his stuff and feed me those for his decisions, awards, and memorials when he acted as counsel in cases.
I took dictation and transcribed notes and got coffee for my boss.
(12:17):
I fed lunch many times for my bosses.
I proofread and typed letters.
I reviewed and finalized billing.
I did all the bills.
Wow.
And I get calendars.
I answer their phone.
So you're really close working one-to-one with the attorney?
Oh yes, one-to-one.
(12:39):
I used to answer all of my boss's calls.
He never or she never answered their own line.
It's so weird to think about that now.
I can't.
Now you get the direct or even their cell phone.
I know exactly.
I mean most clients now communicate with their lawyers on their cell phones, WhatsApp,
and I don't know what other applications we have out there.
(13:02):
But yeah, so that was that.
Nowadays, a legal secretary, they have like five, six partners and associates don't even
have their own secretaries now.
And I don't know if you guys at your firm.
Yeah, it seems that it's changed a lot in the last maybe 10 years.
I think with technology, everybody writes their own, or at least expected to write dictating.
(13:26):
Exactly.
Unless they're using Siri or something.
Yeah, dictation.
Yeah, they're long gone.
Nobody uses the fax.
I mean that used to be a thing where you had to wait by the fax.
Yes.
And just make sure that...
Feed the pages and make sure they're in jam so that the pages came across clear at the other end.
When I worked at the bank, we used to get letters via fax.
(13:50):
That's how people file their things.
I remember sending a 200 page document via fax.
And calling ahead to make sure the fax machine had enough paper.
Right.
I remember getting those.
Or making sure it didn't get cut off.
At that point, I'd say, at what page did it get cut off so I can re-send it from there.
I know.
(14:10):
So now the position of legal secretary, I think has changed quite a bit from when I did it.
But when I was at Wilmot Cutler, the woman I worked with was very busy.
And one of the tasks I was responsible for was to look at newspapers and to cut out any news clippings
(14:32):
about industry, the area that she focused on, clients, any news clips that talked about or
mentioned her clients, any of her clients, potential clients.
People that she was actually courting.
So client development and business development.
Right.
All in one.
But back in the day, you're clipping the news article.
(14:55):
Literally cutting and putting in a piece of paper so that she would have those handy.
And now you can subscribe to a newsletter.
I know.
Which is different.
And now you can subscribe and also Google alerts that mention your client.
And then there it is. People have no idea how much work it was to stay on top of everything.
(15:18):
And I think maybe because of technology, but some people forget how to develop their client,
what they need to look for.
They just expect the client's going to tell us when there's a problem.
But sometimes you have to be proactive.
Exactly. And she was very proactive.
I picked up dry cleaning.
I made bank deposits.
I kept secrets.
(15:39):
Because legal secretary, the word secretary.
You know a lot.
Yes, the word secretary.
Well, the word secretary comes from a person that keeps secrets.
It's true.
I had no idea.
I kept a lot of secrets.
I like moments when I can gather with people and start to share our secrets.
What do you know?
(16:00):
Yeah. So I did all of that.
And I mentioned to people now that I used to do banking for my boss.
And they're like, what? You would do that?
You sell their paycheck?
I'm like, oh girl, I sell more than paychecks.
I think some people may not realize that the reason that you're doing all this stuff is
(16:23):
because really you are helping that attorney stay on focus.
Yeah. And free to do work.
To do work, right?
So it's something they need to be on a meeting.
They can't pick up their dry cleaning between nine and five for exactly them.
Exactly.
Or go to the bank before it closes.
And back then, the banking hours...
Banks close at two back in the day.
(16:44):
Yeah. They close.
So you had to go to the bank, you had to get cash and stuff.
And now even hail a cab.
I remember handling a cab and just asking them, paying them extra to just wait.
Stay there.
Right. Exactly.
I used to get cabs for Keith, especially because he was always going, traveling.
And even when I moved to the IP group, they were always going somewhere.
(17:05):
And yeah, I mean, it's like rush, rush, rush.
And I didn't want her to waste any time hailing a cab or just waiting because it...
In the movies, you come out and there's a taxi waiting.
Yeah, that never happened.
Not in real life.
You have to walk up and down.
That doesn't happen with Uber.
That don't let you...
I mean, this is way before Uber time.
(17:26):
But all of those things you do and you did, I did at least for the people that I worked with
so that they would have time and their time was very valuable and very expensive.
So I remember then meeting you.
I'm pretty sure that I was doing some kind of filing, but back in the day, you had to
(17:48):
submit everything by hard copy.
You had to have 10 copies of something.
And they were very large filings.
So I remember hailing cabs.
And at some point I had like five cabs going with an attorney in each cab, all bringing
them to the World Bank, trying to get through security, through the upstairs, all this.
It's a mess.
But at that point you finally get through the door of the World Bank, which is where
(18:13):
I think you were working at the time was Ixn.
Right.
And...
When we met, yes.
Yes.
That was Ixn.
And there you are, I guess, greeting or...
In some cases I would see some of the attorneys that are like, oh, not another one.
And they would see all these just boxes and boxes of stuff.
Of like filing with exhibits and authorities, all this stuff, just because these were massive
(18:35):
filings.
And here you are taking on these cases.
How did you end up getting into the World Bank?
And what was your impression when you started there?
So getting into the World Bank is another story.
When I worked with Keith at Curtis Malay, he introduced me to a bunch of people, including
(18:57):
Naseeb Siyadi, who was the Deputy Secretary General, the first Deputy Secretary General
at Ixn.
Keith introduced me to Naseeb and I kept in touch even after Keith died.
By 2007, when I started at the World Bank at Ixn, Keith had been dead for seven years
(19:20):
now.
So when I met somebody who worked at the bank and they mentioned that Naseeb had been
appointed Deputy Secretary General and that now he was overseeing the day to day activities
of Ixn, I wrote him a note saying, congratulations on your appointment.
(19:43):
And he in response, attracted me down to where I was.
To the firm I was working at and said, yeah, I just got here.
He had been in the post for a few months by then.
He said, let's have coffee.
I want to talk to you about you coming to work with us.
Wow.
And this is before LinkedIn and just connecting.
(20:04):
So he's like, he actually had to track you down.
Yeah, and I wrote him a handwritten note, people.
I wrote him a note.
There's no magic in handwriting.
There is.
There is.
And he got it.
In fact, I wrote it and I gave it to him.
I wrote it and I gave the note to the person I had met at the bank because he was then
going to hand deliver it to Naseeb and he did.
(20:26):
And I'm so thankful to that person.
It was not as easy as I make it sound now because it took some time to actually
go through the process because I had to go through the process like everyone else.
But I remember coming to the exit office and he said, let me introduce you to some people.
(20:47):
And Gonzalo Flores is coming down the hall.
And I know Gonzalo because I had worked with Gonzalo when Keith was arbitrator in cases
where he was secretary of the tribunal.
And I see Gonzalo and of course, we immediately recognize each other and hug each other.
And we hadn't seen each other for a while.
(21:08):
And Naseeb is like, well, see, you know him already.
This is going to be easy.
That you belong here.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly what he said.
He said, well, let me introduce you to Javier Castro, who was then the sort of like the HR person.
Who's also still there.
Who's also still there.
They've been there for years.
Still there.
Listen, yeah, it's hard to leave.
It's hard to leave.
(21:29):
Anyway, a few months later, we made it happen.
And I joined Ixid about a year and a half after I graduated from George Mason.
And you joined Ixid at a time that Ixid were really exploding.
Yeah.
Caseload just started growing and growing.
So you probably saw it also grow in your department.
(21:50):
Yeah.
And you joined as a legal secretary?
No, by then I joined Ixid as a part of legal.
But when I arrived, it was a smaller office. Now there's so many staff members there.
How long were you at Ixid?
At Ixid, I was there for a little over five years, maybe.
(22:11):
Yeah, when I arrived, we had a lot of cases and we had a much smaller staff.
And I think there was only three paralegals.
Wow.
And all of the cases.
No.
All of the cases. We had groups. We had a Spanish group, French group, and English group.
Now there's like subgroups of those groups because they're just so large.
(22:36):
I used to have a list of all the cases where I was assigned the paralegal.
And at one point, I had over 50 cases.
Wow. That's too many.
Insane.
Wow.
But you know, yeah, but remember that at this time, everything was done in paper.
Right.
And everything was done in multiple copies.
(22:59):
I remember in one particular case,
Whiting case was counsel for claimants. It was multiple claimants.
They submitted their memorial and I received 56 boxes.
I think I know what cases is.
That sounds fun.
Because I was on the opposing side.
Poor you now.
And I received, and I guess it was my copy, and I received like maybe 15 boxes.
(23:24):
And I was like, what is this?
So we used to get two copies for the center and one copy for each arbitrator.
Wow.
56 boxes. I mean, that is a lot of boxes.
And I remember then the delivery person, you know, this thing's back in the day,
(23:44):
they would get delivered to our mail center.
I used to go through the front door.
Like I used to make an excuse because I was just like, I'm not going through the mail.
I need to give this to somebody.
Some of us will go up and down just carrying boxes in our hand.
Yeah. Well, you were lucky.
I mean, we never disencourage people from doing that.
(24:05):
Well, but that was actually the magic of trying to befriend the paralegal.
I have your cell phone.
I'm coming up to see you.
Exactly.
I brought some cookies.
I was going to say.
I actually bring some cookies, some donuts or something.
Bring cookies.
Cookies can take you a long way.
A long way.
As long as they're $25 or less, you feel free to bring cookies.
(24:27):
When they deliver the boxes, they had this huge crate and I'm like, just pile them up
right here.
And it took like a hallway and pile them up.
And some parties, some law firms were very nice and they would number.
They would say set one, box one off, whatever.
(24:48):
Some people were just not as nice.
So I would have to open every box.
Right. Just to figure out what's in.
To figure out what was in it.
Yeah.
And then to create the sets to send off to the tribunal.
At some point, I learned that you had some sort of method that wasn't really written.
And of course, everybody's learning at this point.
(25:11):
But we would give the original box that was going to be in your shelf without any kind
of binders.
And so they'll all be in red wells and labeled and stuff.
And then the copy going to the tribunal, we put in binders and then every box would have
a number and put a label on something like that.
Whatever it was.
And that's when I started learning.
It really, really helps to know your audience because if I can make it easy for you and
(25:34):
all you have to do is slap it forward.
Right.
You can make it happen.
Oh my God.
We're always so glad to get those boxes with the red wells, the copies, because I'm doing,
first of all, I'm doing binders, taking documents out of binders to put them into a red well.
Right.
So you accumulate this insane amount of empty binders that nobody knows what to do.
(26:00):
I mean, I can't tell you how many binders, empty binders we had.
I think it took a picture of a massive just create of empty binders at some point.
And it's like, this is the reason why we can't, we have to conform to how you do things.
And I wish it would have been written down.
It wasn't written down until much, much later.
(26:22):
But yeah, you just have to know your audience.
Those things are the result of communicating.
Right.
And also the result of doing a lot of things until you get it right.
Right.
So.
And you were also under the World Bank's rules.
So there are things that even though you didn't want, it was the World Bank's rules.
(26:45):
It was also in exit rules that X amount of copies needed to be sent to the center.
And then the center would then dispatch those to tribunal members.
So this is a great example of
where sometimes your actual practice can affect the legal writing,
whereas the paralegals were finding themselves either unclipping, decrypting USBs and all this stuff
(27:11):
can later affect how things are written because then somebody says, you know what,
we need to rewrite these rules.
Yeah, exactly.
Amend different things.
I'm surprised that it took as long as it did to rewrite those exit rules.
Is it very different to be a paralegal in a law firm than a paralegal in exit?
(27:31):
Yes.
Although the foundation is the same, I think those things don't change.
You still have paralegal skills that carry, but it is very different.
One, as just alluded by Kelby, is that you have a set of rules that the institution,
you just have to follow.
(27:52):
In law firms, it's different because their focus isn't necessarily on mandates,
but rather what's best for our clients and how we can utilize best the funds that they entrust us with
and minimize unnecessary costs because it's expensive, you know, getting documents out of
(28:14):
binders.
I mean, it's time consuming.
I mean, there were days when that's all I did.
It's take things out of binders and put in boxes.
It's also, I mean, a law firm, you get paid better for one thing.
The perks are better.
Right.
The World Bank is a non-profit.
Thanks.
Let's remind everybody.
(28:34):
Even though bank is in the name.
I know.
Oh my God.
When I started working at the World Bank, I told my mom that I had a new job at the World Bank
and she asked me if I was going to be a teller.
That's funny.
Well, funny enough, they never actually, the World Bank never had an actual ATM machine until
maybe five, six years ago.
(28:57):
There wasn't anywhere you could get cash out at the World Bank.
At the bank.
And I thought that was funny because there's a cafeteria there and there's like a little shop
center there.
You didn't see it, but there's always been an ATM.
It was just not visible to the general public because the credit union is in the main complex
(29:19):
and there is an ATM near the credit union.
You had to work there to get access to the actual ATM.
Exactly.
You just had to know where it was.
You had to know where it was.
It's near the cafeteria, the main cafeteria.
And you finally left Ixed, the World Bank, and you came to the private sector, but you get to
have that interaction back with the attorneys, whereas at the World Bank, you were just working
(29:44):
with the institution, not really working with any cases directly.
Is that more of what you wanted to do is work with the actual cases?
When I left Ixed, I really got to the point where I didn't see my career going anywhere.
I mean, I have a lot of respect for everyone that works at Ixed and especially my former
(30:06):
paralegal colleagues at Ixed.
I just wanted more and I had sacrificed so much in six years that it took me to finish
university and I wanted to be stimulated and I felt that repacking boxes was not going to do it.
Now, things may have changed.
(30:27):
I don't know what type of assignments they're doing now, but when I was there,
every once in a while, I got to review a translation.
I also got as much as I was trusted to do and as much as I had proven that I was capable of doing.
I wanted to move up the ladder.
(30:49):
I mean, when you start in a law firm, there's a lot of levels of paralegal and I wanted to move up
and have a senior paralegal title, which I knew I wasn't going to have at Ixed.
And I've been gone for 10 years and I don't think anybody that is still there when I was there
(31:10):
and still there now has their title changed or they're great for that matter in terms of pay.
The pay helps.
The pay helps besides the title.
You don't want just the title.
I know, right? Exactly.
Although if I had gotten the title, I probably would have stayed, who knows.
After I left, I discovered this whole new world and I started traveling
(31:32):
and going places. I mean, I have traveled so much.
For anyone who might be in high school or maybe a college graduate,
a lot of them don't know that there are alternatives.
At this point, do you think going through the legal secretary or a paralegal route
would be rewarding if they're actually trying to get exposure to the law?
I have trained so many young paralegals who are on their way to law school.
(32:00):
And I worked at a firm where they hire paralegals knowing that paralegals would stay for
one or two years and then move on to law school.
It worked for them. It continues to work for them.
I have trained so many paralegals on their way to law school.
They just want to get a taste or feel for what law firm life is like.
(32:23):
But paralegal work is very rewarding and is less expensive.
I will never discourage anyone who wants to be a lawyer from becoming a lawyer and from going to law school.
If I had gone to school much earlier, college that is much earlier,
I probably would have gone to law school myself.
(32:45):
But circumstances, I graduated a year before my daughter was to start school herself.
And I couldn't afford to have law school tuition and college tuition for my child.
But being a paralegal is a great job that gives you the taste of law firm life.
You get paid very well.
(33:07):
Most law firms require a four-year college degree.
When you want to do it, you always find a way of doing it.
There's so much financial aid available now for high school students who want to go to college.
It's a great job.
And you just don't have to work the crazy hours that lawyers do.
(33:30):
I mean, lawyers, their minimum yearly hours is huge.
And they're salary people.
But the time they divide the amount of money they get paid by the hours they work,
they're making less money per hour than paralegal would.
(33:53):
It's fascinating how that, yeah, if you do the math, maybe a first year associate with the debt that they're paying back.
Exactly.
It's incredible.
And now, yeah, eventually...
They're not breaking even until like maybe they're six or seven.
Exactly.
And then eventually you will make a lot of money.
But there's so much...
It's just being a lawyer.
If you're thinking of going to law school because you want to make a lot of money, think twice.
(34:16):
Rethink.
Rethink that because let me tell you, the only way you're going to make a lot of money
if you go to law school is if you graduate at the top of your class,
go to a very expensive law school and get a job in a very, very big law firm or a top law firm.
That is able to pay the salaries that newly graduated law students are demanding.
(34:45):
As a paralegal, you get to experience very similar things.
You are involved in cases, you travel with the team, you work with the team.
And by the way, you get paid overtime and you can make a lot of money.
As far as being a legal secretary, here's the thing.
As far as being a legal secretary, here's what I have to say about that.
(35:08):
Being a legal secretary works if you have a family or if you're planning on starting a family.
Secretaries have very set hours and that is very good if you have a family because you have to get home,
pick up the kids or have dinner on the table for your children.
It's great.
But we always want to aspire to more.
(35:30):
And yeah, go to law school if you want to.
But also consider being a paralegal.
We are in, we're always going to be in demand because there's always going to be work
that cannot be billed at a lawyer rate and needs to be done.
And so law firms will always want to hire a paralegal to do work that
(35:57):
first or second year associates would have to do if you're not there.
Clients don't want to pay for a first or second year lawyer to site check
or to put together binders.
They just don't.
And secretaries have seven partners to tend to.
They don't have time to do binders.
(36:17):
And sometimes the work can get a little bit stressful or overwhelmed.
Do you have ways of dealing with stress?
I learned early on that somebody in the team had to remain calm at all times
because otherwise everything goes to hell.
(36:39):
So I chose to be that person.
The way I see things is like, there's always ways that things can go wrong or bad or what have you.
But it's not the end of the world.
You know, people, it's not worth you getting stressed out over a wrong exhibit number or
(37:01):
wrong document when you can just fix it.
So, you know, avoid the stress and just fix it.
It comes with experience, I guess.
I mean, I'm sure that earlier on in my career, I used to stress over everything.
I don't now.
I just don't because like I said, somebody has to remain calm because
whatever it is that you are in the middle of doing needs to get done.
(37:24):
And so you just have to work through it and get it done, right?
But I do do things for myself that help me de-stress, if you would.
You know, usually after a filing or after a hearing, I take a day off or a day or two off.
And I do nothing.
I've been known to just sit at home and watch TV all day and watch movies or what have you.
(37:48):
Because that's the way I recharge.
I book dates with my grandchildren for the purpose of because when I'm with them,
not only do I forget about the world around me, but they help me be like,
you were doing things that don't need me to think about things.
(38:11):
You know what I mean?
It's like I'm doing, I'm playing with them.
You're just not, you're not thinking.
It doesn't require a lot of thought to do whatever it is that you're doing.
And that is helpful to me.
I get myself on their calendars on days after a filing or a hearing for that purpose.
And they just help me recharge.
(38:31):
You know, book a spa day.
That sounds nice.
Yeah.
Or I mean, it's, you know, you've earned it.
Mistakes will be made.
We're all humans.
We make mistakes.
And as long as you fix them, as long as you own your mistakes,
it's not the end of the world.
If there's a, I guess, maybe a brand new associate starting at a firm and they have no idea,
(38:52):
they've never worked with a paralegal.
Is there any kind of advice you would give them?
So I have been in that situation.
I have been asked to give advice to a brand new associate.
When I was a legal secretary, I used to be part of the welcome week.
It was the first week of their job and I was asked to come in and talk about how
(39:18):
brand new associates can utilize assistance, how they can delegate work and what to expect
and what is okay to ask your secretary to do or not to do.
I recently got tasked in a case.
There were just two brand new associates.
They had no idea what they were doing.
And the first time we met, they said, Anna, what can we do to make this better?
(39:46):
And they said, we've set up this box folder where we're all working.
And I looked at the box folder and it was a hot mess.
And the first thing I said to them was, you need to let somebody organize this,
because if you have a well organized file system here, your life is going to be so much easier.
(40:06):
So working for the first time with a paralegal or legal assistant,
just ask them what works because you're new.
You haven't experienced it yet, especially if you're working with an experienced paralegal.
They know what works and they will tell you what mistakes to avoid.
(40:30):
They will help you save yourself a lot of time.
Going the other way, if somebody is a brand new paralegal going into this world of law firm life,
they have no idea what to expect.
Perhaps they're interviewing the profession to figure out if they want to be a lawyer
or if they want to do something else.
What kind of advice would you tell to a new paralegal entering,
(40:52):
if it never worked with attorneys, what should they expect?
What should they know?
This may sound awful, but the first thing is that
you're not a lawyer.
You may want to be a lawyer, but if you are interviewing for a paralegal job,
you are going to get to do paralegal work.
Don't pretend that you know everything.
(41:13):
Be flexible and be amenable to do whatever it takes to get the job done.
If the job is to do a folder, to do a binder, just do the best damn binder you've ever done.
If the job is to go make copies, make the best copies you've ever produced.
Do your best to do the best work.
(41:35):
People are always watching.
They will remember.
They will remember the quality of work you produce.
Focus on what you're doing.
Read things twice.
The first pass at an email with instructions, I can tell you, you will get 45%
and I'm giving you a lot of credit, 45% of what is going to happen.
45% of what it actually asks you to do.
(41:58):
Because the other 55%, you're going to read in the second time you get to read that email.
Read things twice before you start working on the assignment.
Because you will find, and this happened to me earlier on in my career,
I would read things so quickly and I would get to work.
And then when I finished, I would read the email again and then I realized that the very
(42:19):
last line of the email said, and by the way, this is how I want this done.
And it was completely different than how I had done.
It happens to me still.
So read the instructions twice.
Take good notes.
When you go to a meeting where the tasks are discussed, take notes, get back to your desk,
(42:45):
write an email, summarize what you heard and get confirmation that's what you've been asked to do.
You want to be efficient. You want to do good work.
You want to start making good impression on the people you work with because they will invite you
to be part of the next team, the next case they get.
(43:06):
You will become the go-to person and you're always going to have work.
Well, that's great advice.
I appreciate you being on the show.
I mean, I know we're covering a large range of topics, but it's great to have you here.
Especially on a sober day.
That's right.
Oh my God, this has been so much fun.
(43:28):
Oh, thank you so much for such a great pleasure.
And thanks for the invitation.
It's been great to have you here.
Now it's been wonderful to be here and I can't wait to hear how we all sound at the end.
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