November 19, 2024 • 44 mins
Serena Rwejuna, a partner at White & Case and a distinguished expert in energy law, shares her compelling journey, from her upbringing in North Carolina to her studies in psychology and business, to her eventual pivot to law. She delves into her multifaceted career, discussing her experiences in business school, navigating law school challenges at Duke University, and her work in higher education. Serena offers unique insights into the complexities of energy law, the global impact of energy regulations, and the crucial role of mentorship and community support. Tune in as she explores the significance of the energy transition, regulatory bodies like FERC, and the abundant opportunities awaiting the next generation in this evolving sector—all while exemplifying approachable and authentic leadership.
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Guest Info:
Serena Rwejuna, Partner, White & Case LLP
Serena A. Rwejuna is a partner at White & Case, co-leading the firm’s Energy Markets & Regulatory practice. With a focus on clean energy technologies, regulatory compliance, and global energy policy, Serena combines her legal expertise with a multidisciplinary approach to foster innovation and sustainability. Beyond her practice, she is dedicated to pro bono advocacy and leadership within various industry boards.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And
(00:28):
once again we are back with the Advocate Next Door.
My name is Kelly Balena.
I'm here, I'm back here with my co-host, my very special co-host.
Hello everybody, my name is Margarita Rango.
Today we have a very special guest in the area of energy law.
(00:48):
My special guest is Serena Bijuna.
Yes.
And you are a partner at White in Case.
Seeing it, you're LinkedIn, you do all of this amazing stuff in energy.
And it's seeing that you're so passionate and energetic doing panels, networking, teaching,
(01:08):
and at some point you're winning all of these awards.
I'm like, what is all of this energy about?
So welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
By the way, you are from North Carolina.
Is that where you grew up?
Yes, born and raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Oh, wow.
Yes.
(01:29):
It's actually a military town, although I was not directly tied to the military.
My mother grew up in the country outside of Fayetteville.
My father grew up in Uganda and East Africa.
And after finishing his graduate studies, was a professor at Fayetteville State University
and HBCU there in Fayetteville.
And so my parents met and raised my sister and I there.
Can I ask how your parents met?
(01:50):
They met working at the university.
My father was a professor.
My mom was working in administration.
And that's how a country girl from Eastern North Carolina met an East African.
And they fell in love and the rest was history.
What is it like living in North Carolina?
Because I got stationed there briefly in Jacksonville.
(02:10):
But I'm not sure if there's a lot to do that is inspiring your career.
Yes.
And Fayetteville in particular, having a military base there definitely has a lot of different
career trajectories.
You see people from all over the globe growing up.
I wasn't moving around.
A lot of my friends and family were being stationed various places across the globe.
(02:33):
It definitely provided a global worldview.
I'll be honest, I didn't really realize what energy law was until pretty late into my legal
education.
We can talk about that later.
But definitely having a father who grew up on the African continent and having his relatives
spread out throughout the world gave me a global vision.
(02:53):
Now working in energy, something that touches every community, every aspect of life, every
sector of professional and personal life and every aspect of the globe.
It definitely hits home and I oftentimes reflect on growing up in a very multicultural, globally
focused community, but also within a pretty small town.
(03:14):
But North Carolina was great.
I had the best of all worlds.
I was an hour and a half from the beach, which is my happy place being on the water.
A few hours from the mountains and great educational institutions throughout the state.
I did most of my education right there in North Carolina.
So it was a great foundation for this energy law career that I've dove into.
I never thought I'd be here 12 years later.
(03:36):
That's the things I wanted to talk about because graduating high school and then you go into
an area, you went to Wake Forest University and you were studying psychology.
Was there something that inspired you there?
Was that what you thought would be the next step towards law?
So I actually growing up thought I was going to get a PhD in psychology and be a clinical
psychologist.
(03:57):
Oh wow.
And the summer before my senior year of college, I spent in Boston, actually I was working
in a health and psychophysiology lab at Harvard.
I loved it, but I realized it was not what I was meant to do for the rest of my life.
And since I was-
Why not though?
Because like, was it just not what you were interested in or just not the kind of work
you wanted to do?
It was really interesting, but it didn't feel like my calling, if that makes sense.
(04:21):
I'm very purpose driven and I knew I wanted to be in a helping profession and I thought
that was my avenue to helping.
But since I was yay tall and I know folks can't see, but I'm putting my hand up about
three, you know, less than two, three feet.
Desk level.
Desk level.
Since I was like four, five years old, my father always said, like, you're going to
(04:41):
be an attorney, you're going to be a lawyer.
I did not believe him, but I was also that kid who would come up with my case and have
the trifold board with all of the facts and you know-
So he could see it before you could.
Yes.
He saw it before anyone else did.
I knew I wanted to be in that helping profession and I thought I would find that through psychology,
but I realized that summer that it actually may come through another avenue.
(05:04):
And that's when I realized dad was right and my helping profession would be through the
law.
But you were still fighting it because you went to the school of business.
I did.
So I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I also know I did not want to go straight
through.
I wanted some work experience.
I wanted to live a little, see the world before I dove into that stage of my journey with
(05:24):
a psychology degree.
I realized I may have limited opportunities for practical jobs coming straight out of
undergrad with just a bachelor's in psychology.
So I actually decided to go to business school so that I could get some more kind of just
kind of harder skills.
I did a master's of arts and management, which is the same programming as the first year
of an MBA.
(05:45):
Except you add on an extra summer and the professional experience you would get during
your consulting work, the summer between your first and second year of your MBA, I did year
round as an externship.
And so essentially I have the equivalent of almost a full MBA.
I could go back and do that final year specialization if I had wanted to.
And many people from that program do.
(06:05):
I didn't because-
On your spare time.
My spare time, yes.
My family actually, after I finished law school, made me promise I would not go back for another
degree because I squosed in another one between business school and law school.
But I wanted some skills, some real life experience.
And so I went to business school and then used that to help me get a job so I could
work for a few years between undergrad and going to law school.
(06:28):
So how does your knowledge and experience in psychology and business have helped your
legal career?
Oh, I use it every single day.
Between business school and law school, I did a program for women in politics and public
policy and energy.
Very interesting.
Policy, politics tie into it a thousand percent on a daily basis, whether it's thinking about
organizational behavior, thinking about communication, thinking about aspects of leadership, thinking
(06:54):
about just things like negotiation and decision making, these skills, these experiences that
I gained studying psychology, studying human behavior, studying interactions, going to
business school, working in finance and then in leadership.
It's all come together and it's this perfect package that allows me to really tackle every
(07:15):
aspect of our clients' issues and the issues that communities who we serve face, but in
a very holistic way.
I'm not just parachuting in with my legal mind, but I'm able to see the human aspect
of it, understand the policy, understand the underlying business and corporate motivations
without losing that sense of humanity as well.
(07:36):
After business school, I moved to Boston.
I wanted to challenge myself geographically.
Moved out of the South, had only lived in North Carolina other than study abroad as
an undergrad.
I worked in higher education.
I worked at the Kennedy School in the Center for Public Leadership.
I worked at a nonprofit there, did a lot of leadership work, did a lot of working with
decision makers, with business leaders, but also with pre-collegiate college musicians
(08:01):
and with college musicians and really was able to pull together all these pieces of
my past experiences and interests and broaden my horizon.
With that collective experience, I was ready to dive into what I thought would be the ultimate
educational experience.
I think the timing was perfect.
I didn't know necessarily what type of law I would practice, but I knew that I'd been
(08:23):
to business school.
I had this idea of how corporations operated.
I had worked in the nonprofit sector and understood how that worked.
I thought, I'll figure it out.
I'm ready to dive in.
I've tackled undergrad.
I've tackled various graduate level programs.
So let's see what this is all about.
After all that knowledge and experience, you are more than ready to become a lawyer.
(08:45):
You would think so, but I will tell you law school was the most challenging educational
experience I had.
It put them all to shame.
I love Duke.
I have amazing mentors, champions, members of my personal board of directors who I met
back on campus a decade and a half ago.
It definitely was a challenge, but one that was well worth the investment, pushing myself
and tackling what had been the goal for many years beforehand.
(09:09):
At a place like Duke, do they teach energy law?
So they do.
When I was in law school, I was aware of one energy law class back then.
It was cross-listed between the law school and the Nicholas School of the Environment.
And so I actually ended up taking that class my last year of law school.
I had an internship between my second and third year of law school where I discovered
(09:30):
energy law.
And so I went back and was like, okay, well, let's see if I can learn more about this before
I graduate.
And so I took that class.
Now there are so many courses at the law school, at the business school, at the Nicholas Institute,
Pratt, the Graduate School of Engineering has energy law classes.
There's a student association tied to energy law.
So you were there where there was one class.
Just the one.
(09:51):
There's so many resources now, but I love it.
I mean, I think it really shows the importance of energy in society from a professional perspective,
from an educational perspective.
And I think it also shows just really the importance of the energy transition and how
we are really appreciating academically, professionally, intellectually, how energy really touches
(10:12):
in and ties into every other aspect of life.
I love that students, whether they're undergrads or law students, are learning about energy.
Duke University, the undergraduate school has an energy club and they actually have
reached out and I've mentored some of them and spoken with them.
And so we have just not only law students who are now learning about energy and thinking
about energy law, but we have young, bright, 18, 19 year olds who are just starting out
(10:36):
in their undergraduate careers and are thinking about energy and what careers and energy look
like, whether it's law or finance or through government and policy.
We really have this next generation of energy leaders.
And I love it because it's so critical.
We really need that.
And it reaches so many different areas, not just energy law or something.
We could be talking about technology as well.
(10:58):
And we could be talking energy is in everything.
I challenge folks, I say, come up with one industry or one aspect of life that you don't
think energy touches and I will find a way to connect it.
It ties back to everything.
It is the great connector.
You are currently a partner at White in Case and you have yourself a great positive energy
(11:19):
about you.
I love that right now our audience can't see, but you're wearing this really amazing pink
suit.
You seem to be very open and friendly and energetic and passionate about your industry.
And so approachable and kind because sometimes international students have this vision of
how partners are and they're like, untouchable.
You know, they're so out of reach that you don't know how to talk to them or how to approach.
(11:44):
And sometimes it's not easy, but with you, it was like you make people feel comfortable
around you.
And that's really nice.
Thank you.
I truly appreciate hearing that you said approachable.
And I was going to say my goal really is to be approachable.
I, you know, I'm the only attorney in my family.
What I knew about big law was what I saw on TV.
And I knew that I didn't want to be the worst of that.
(12:04):
I believe in being authentic.
I try to lead authentically.
I try to lead with empathy.
And so I will walk into any room with my bright pink suit on.
I'm a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sword Incorporated.
So I love wearing my pink and green.
I love colors by the way.
So yes, I have a bright wardrobe.
I love bringing positive energy into a room.
(12:27):
Our jobs, no matter what we do, are challenging.
We're tackling some of the world's greatest challenges if we can't do it with a smile
in a collaborative way, then what are we doing?
There's no need to be cold or make things more challenging than they need to be.
So I really focus on trying to be approachable, trying to bridge that gap, trying to make
(12:49):
sure that everyone, whether aspiring law students or co-counsel or colleagues or anyone who
I've met and I'm sitting recording a podcast with, that we can connect and we can find
that common ground.
And so I take it seriously and everything from the way that I dress and walk into a
room to the way that I try to carry myself professionally, it's really important to
(13:12):
me.
I think it's part of my personal brand and it's something that I'm very intentional
about.
Do you have any tips you would give to anyone who is in a high level position when it comes
to mentoring students or the next generation?
Yes.
I think this is one of my favorite topics and I'm so thankful.
Mentorship is so important.
For me, it's about representation.
(13:33):
It's about providing that pathway for the next generation.
It's about pouring into others.
Advice that I have, anyone can be a mentor.
Oftentimes we may not even realize that we're seen as leaders or mentors.
So you don't have to have a title that is partner or practice group leader or anything
like that to mentor and to lead and teach.
(13:55):
I think it's really important that we all give back in the way that we can.
Coming up, I had amazing champions, sponsors, mentors, teachers who really poured into me
and really were invested in my long-term success.
And so it's important to me to pay that forward.
I try to think intentionally about how can I help the next generation and really when
(14:15):
I think about how do I measure my success, it's not necessarily, I love the awards that
I receive, but it's not about the award.
It's about how do I help my team and those who I'm training and who I'm mentoring and
I'm leading, how do I help them accomplish even more?
So if I got award X, how do I make sure that they get X plus so many more?
If I've made it to this level, I want to see them make it three more rungs up the ladder.
(14:36):
From my perspective, it really is about paying it forward and making sure it's support they
need and that they feel that they are championed and that they know that they can accomplish
whatever those goals are.
I think at this point, maybe for black women who are big law partners that specialize in
energy regulatory work, there aren't that many of us.
We need more.
Yes, we need more.
And so when I was coming up, I had champions who I saw who looked like me and now I want
(14:58):
those who are coming up behind me to be able to say the same thing, to say, okay, I see
Serena doing this.
I know that I can too and not for them to just see me, but for me to actually be putting
my hand down and pulling them up and helping them along the way, making sure that they're
able to accomplish that.
I really just encourage people, think about your pathway and what you struggled with and
make it a goal to at least find one person and help them not have to go through that
(15:22):
same challenge so that they're free to tackle whatever the next challenge is because we
know they're going to continue to come.
That would be my advice.
That's such a generous perspective.
On behalf of young lawyers, I really appreciate that perspective.
But also, Serena, what advice can you give to a young lawyer that is trying to build
a mentor-mentor relationship?
(15:43):
How to build that?
So I would say really be intentional.
Think about what you would like to gain from a relationship with a mentor.
Do your homework.
When I meet with mentees, I come prepared.
I ask, can I see your resume?
Can you tell me what it is you want to talk about?
I try to make sure that I've thought about it beforehand, but likewise, I expect the
(16:03):
mentee to do the same.
Come to me with concrete questions.
Let me know, is there something specific?
Is it general advice you want?
And know that as a mentee, you can be just as helpful to me as I can to you and really
embrace that because I think that it's important for each of us, no matter what stage of our
careers we're at, recognize the value that we can give and that we can always be paying
(16:26):
it forward.
And so, yeah, be intentional, be strategic, be prepared, and know that you're adding value
as well.
And I think if you come to walk into a mentor-mentee relationship with that perspective, you'll
get a lot more from it.
So hopefully to help anyone that's out there that has no idea what energy law must be like,
I see that there's a term that's kind of all over your LinkedIn.
(16:48):
It says FERC.
Is that part of energy law?
It is.
So energy law is a big batch of alphabet soup.
There are lots of acronyms.
Don't let them be intimidating.
But the shorthand that I used to describe to colleagues as to what our group does, we're
pipes and wires.
Think about anything that flows through a pipe or if it's conducted through a wire,
(17:10):
you should come to us.
So that's everything from oil, gas, liquids, electricity, all different forms of electricity,
whether it's natural gas fired, solar, wind, hydroelectricity.
There are a lot of different generation sources.
Energy involves the generation via those resources, the transmission distribution.
(17:31):
So moving whatever that generation type is from where it's created to where we need it
to power our lives.
And you mentioned FERC.
FERC stands for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
They are the US energy regulator at the federal level.
So they regulate the wholesale sale of electricity, transmission of electricity and interstate
(17:56):
commerce.
Those who are in law school, you're hearing interstate commerce, you may be having flashbacks.
They also regulate various aspects of the oil and gas industry at various levels.
There are other regulators.
There's the Department of Energy, which sits above FERC.
And then there are state energy regulators, state electric utility commissions, public
(18:20):
utility commissions.
There is NERC, which is the reliability coordinator for the US.
Lots of agencies at the federal, state and local level, but FERC is kind of the highest
and from a kind of regulatory and compliance perspective in the US.
And so shorthand for what I do, some folks often say I'm a FERC attorney, but I really
(18:40):
do even more than that.
How does a company determine what kind of energy they want to use?
I mean, they have a pipe, they want to light a light bulb.
Let's say they have to come through that determination.
Am I going to use nuclear wind or solar?
Are there things that you can help them to determine either the energy they use or once
(19:01):
they determine that, how to use it?
So in the US and most of the US, Texas is a little different.
They have their own grid.
But for non-Texas parts of the continental US, we actually have the majority of the country
organized markets.
We call these regional transmission organizations and they are these regional energy markets
(19:25):
on the electric side and they regulate the various utilities and other energy market
participants within that geographic territory.
So a company may want to, for example, power their operations using renewable energy, depending
on if they're in a particular organized market, seek to, if they have retail choice in their
(19:47):
particular state, they may be able to find a provider that can source their needs using
renewable energy.
But, you know, this is divided between wholesale levels like sales for resale and then the
retail level.
So depending on what level we're looking at, it's very complex, but various mechanisms
that will determine what type of energy source are available to you.
(20:10):
We're lucky in this country, we have a great mix of our grid and it's complex and, you
know, we want to make sure that we constantly have reliable, safe, affordable electricity.
And so there is this generation mix.
You have some resources that can stay on around the clock based on generation like nuclear
that was not going to be turned off necessarily.
You have other resources that can come online quickly if there's a spike and we need something
(20:35):
quickly.
So maybe like a natural gas plant.
And then we have what we might call intermittent resources like wind, solar, you know, the
sun's not going to be shining 24 hours a day here in the US.
The wind may not always be blowing, but we can use those resources when they're available
or with batteries, which are a huge part of energy.
We can maybe capture that and then deploy that energy when it's needed.
(20:56):
But it's a very complex system and, you know, finding that right mix oftentimes is the job
of that regional market operator.
Depending on where you are as individuals, we may decide, for example, to put solar on
our rooftops and then maybe take advantage of that.
A large corporation may be bound to buy from their local utility if there's not retail
choice.
(21:17):
So it's very complex, but we can definitely all educate ourselves.
I think it is important whether we're trying to actively make decisions about how our electricity
is sourced or not.
I think it's important to understand what our system looks like, what our grid looks
like and ensure it remains reliable and resilient so that we are able to power our lives for
the foreseeable future.
(21:38):
Are your clients primarily companies who need advice with regulations and setting up?
I'm assuming there's a lot going on.
So I have a very diverse portfolio in that I work on transactions.
I may be working with companies who are looking to buy and sell energy companies or energy
assets like a power plant or transmission line.
I do bread and butter regulatory and compliance.
(22:00):
So I help companies or sometimes even individuals who have to make filings to various energy
regulators, whether it's FERC with a state utility commission or NERC on the reliability
side.
I also at times represent individuals in investigations enforcement.
So if a regulator has a question about the functioning of a market, they may open an
(22:22):
investigation, I may be representing a company or perhaps an individual energy trader or
someone who is part of the energy industry that is being questioned by a regulatory authority.
I also do litigation.
So I may be representing companies that are regulated by FERC in a hearing at FERC before
(22:42):
an administrative law judge, before an ALJ.
It's a wide range, but companies who invest in the energy industry, actual market participants,
so public utilities or independent power producers, transmission owners and operators, honestly,
companies that don't even look like a traditional energy company.
(23:03):
So for example, financial institutions may be investors in the energy industry.
You have educational systems, universities who may have concessions for their utility
operations on their campuses.
They could be a client.
Anyone focused on procuring clean energy, looking to enter the energy industry or who
(23:26):
has questions about our grid and how it operates could be a client.
So it's a pretty broad base.
Because it's so broad and hopefully that gives a student hope to say, oh, this is an area
that could still have room for me.
Yes, there's tons of room.
There's room for all of you.
If you have an interest in energy law or the energy industry from any perspective, there's
(23:48):
room for you.
Trust me.
We are on the cusp of one of the largest scale transitions and investments in the energy
industry that we've seen in my lifetime and probably in many lifetimes.
We need energy attorneys.
We need folks who specialize in finance.
We need engineers.
(24:10):
We need linemen who are working in the field.
We need folks who specialize in training and teaching.
Any type of skill that you can imagine, we need that specialty within the energy industry.
So yes, there's definitely room.
There is only going to be more and more opportunity as technology evolves, as the regulations
(24:33):
develop, as we're seeing really just historic levels of investment at the federal level,
at the local level in the energy industry.
There's certainly a lot of need.
So we need this next generation to get excited and to get engaged and to lean into the energy
industry.
How to get into the energy industry.
(24:53):
You just graduated law school and you're looking for something to do.
You're interested in energy law.
How do you get into the industry?
So there are a lot of really great resources that are available.
The Energy Bar Association, the EBA, is a great one for law students and recent graduates.
It's a national association of energy professionals.
(25:14):
They have amazing trainings that are available online.
There is a Young Lawyers Council.
It's an amazing group.
Shout out to one of my associates, Jackie Triggs, who is co-chair for the Young Lawyers
Council of the EBA.
They're an amazing resource.
The ABA, the American Bar Association, has a number of committees that focus on energy.
(25:34):
I co-chair the Energy and Environmental Litigation Committee.
So we welcome students who are actually building out a law student advisory council.
And we're working with students and professionals, again, providing those opportunities for training,
for mentorship, to write, to author, to get your name out there.
For members of underrepresented communities, the American Association of Blacks in Energy
(25:58):
is an amazing group, ABE.
We have an amazing chapter here in DC.
I'm a media past president for our ABE DC chapter, but it's a national association of
energy professionals, not just lawyers, but many attorneys as well.
Again, great training, great networking opportunities, great substantive programming.
There are lots of associations.
There are associations for women in energy.
There are associations tied to specific types of resources, women or men in clean energy.
(26:23):
If you can imagine it, it exists.
So I definitely encourage you to do your research, get on the internet, Google these associations,
reach out to energy attorneys, reach out to a lot of law schools right now have great
energy programs, reach out to the faculty there.
But there's a lot of interest on the legal side within the energy bar to really grow
(26:46):
and develop this next generation of leaders.
There are people out here who want to mentor, who want to train.
You can go online, amazing resources.
FERC has amazing resources online.
There's a lot of information out there.
I think just taking the time to sift through it is probably the hardest part.
But we are an industry that is very much looking to invest in the next generation.
(27:06):
That sounds amazing because I'm assuming just hearing you describe so many different aspects
of energy, but also industries.
I imagine that it also becomes an opportunity to expand into other areas like antitrust
or global investigations or different fields.
(27:27):
You're talking about transactions.
Exactly.
There's a lot of overlap, a lot of synergy.
At White in Case, I work with my M&A colleagues.
I sit within the project finance group.
I work with antitrust.
I work with our environmental specialists.
I work with our ESG and sustainability teams.
I work with our investigations teams.
(27:47):
Energy, it touches on all those areas with finance.
You think about banking.
It all ties together.
So yes, having a foundation of energy really allows you to interact with other specialists
across just about every practice area you can imagine.
Because like I was saying, energy, it touches it all.
There's finance involved in energy.
There's construction involved in energy.
(28:10):
There's obviously investigations.
There are other regulatory implications outside of just, for example, in my practice at times,
I practiced before the CFTC, the SEC at times can be involved.
There's just so many ways that energy touches so many other substantive legal areas and
(28:31):
also other areas of business.
Now you primarily work in the United States, but are there other regulatory agencies or
energy law for people who are not in the US?
There are other countries that regulate and do all of this as well?
What's so fascinating is that every country and even within countries here in the US,
(28:51):
every state does it slightly differently.
And so there are energy attorneys across the globe.
I have colleagues, white and case colleagues who practice energy law across the globe.
Actually now we're building out our global green policy regulation and incentives practice.
And so part of that is really looking at the regulatory regimes across the entire globe,
(29:11):
especially as we're thinking about energy transition and green energy and green policy
and changing regulatory landscapes.
It truly is a global practice.
So for the people who doubt when it comes to energy and people who don't follow the
rules, does that also go into maybe white collar crime issues or is it just mostly fines
(29:32):
when it comes to the government?
So there it is more than fines.
And we never want clients who are on the wrong side of things.
But for example, FERC, they have an office of enforcement and they have a pretty severe
penalty authority.
They have almost at this point $1.5 million per violation per day penalty authority on
(29:53):
the civil side.
They can require disgorgement of unjust profits.
They can require civil penalties.
Depending on the type of activity, there can also be criminal liability.
We've seen cases over the past few decades where we've had those instances where there's
been a particularly egregious activity.
And in those instances, there are serious monetary fines, but also potential criminal
(30:18):
liability.
So it is serious business.
So this is an area where you want to have your attorney who deals in energy know what
they're doing.
Yes, you do.
You want amazingly competent energy counsel who will help you stay out of trouble.
And really, as a regulatory and compliance attorney, I really like to focus on making
(30:40):
sure that you have a solid foundation, great compliance programs, a great culture of compliance.
You have the measures in place that you never get in trouble in the first place.
But if you find yourself on the wrong side of an investigation, there are great counsel
out there who can help guide you through that process as well.
So a moment ago, you were talking about watching movies in big law.
Does the day job affect your personal life when you're trying to enjoy a good movie,
(31:04):
read a good book on the law?
I'm sure there's some pretty good energy law cases out there that have been featured
in movies.
Oh, there are, you know, there's so much out there.
And I will tell you sometimes it's a little hard because my brain is like, wait, that's
not real.
That's not how I actually know.
We're like, oh, wait, yes, that is that's spot on.
So it's actually funny sometimes trying to watch TV or movies.
(31:27):
But I think increasingly, we will see this coming up in pop culture even more.
Because like I was saying, this really touches every aspect of life.
I think art oftentimes imitates life, and right now, energy is a huge part of life.
And so we see, you know, those those trends and the prevalence of energy and everything
from TV to culture to entertainment to education.
(31:51):
It's everywhere.
So when we talk about energy transition to maybe alternative energy, green energy, who
needs to do that transition companies or also states?
How does that work?
And how do you see that going right now?
So the energy transition will really involve all of us.
I have this amazing infographic that I love to share that it blows your mind.
(32:13):
And I literally could spend an entire day talking about it, but it really sets out the
energy transition and the various components of it.
And the answer is all of the above.
It's the government, it's the private sector, it's the public sector, it's individuals and
thinking about our impact on our communities, it's going to require an all in collaborative
(32:36):
effort.
I like to focus on the transition part of energy transition.
I think that there can be a misperception or a lack of appreciation for what the energy
transition actually will entail and require.
And you know, we're not at a point where we can snap our fingers and all of a sudden,
we're going to have a change in what our energy markets look like and what our energy use
(33:01):
and consumption looks like.
But when we have all of these actors working together, hopefully in a coordinated fashion,
then we're able to take stock of where we are and where we want to be and work together
collaboratively to aid in that process.
There's a lot of opportunity for traditional energy companies and energy sources to be
(33:22):
combined with new technology, with new frameworks so that we don't end up with stranded assets
and so that we don't end up with companies or communities that are left behind in the
transition.
I truly believe that if we are coordinated, we can navigate a transition in a way that
doesn't leave communities behind and also creates unprecedented amounts of opportunity
(33:47):
for those who are already a part of the industry, but for those who aren't as well.
With so much changing in the area of energy innovation, are we finding new sources of
energy?
I mean, is it entering the area of space or geothermal type of energy?
There's every type of new development that you can imagine.
(34:11):
We think about something like nuclear and there's, you know, small modular reactors
that are being looked at right now.
You think about something like offshore wind and there's like what you might think of
of traditional offshore wind, but then there's this concept of floating offshore wind.
You know, we think about transmission and there are things like underground cables to
help with offshore wind, for example.
(34:34):
There's just an amazing amount of opportunity and the technology is constantly being developed.
And so we have this great opportunity for scientists and engineers and innovators to
come together.
And I truly believe only limit is the bounds of our imaginations.
I wish I could keep up with all of the new developments and new technology.
(34:59):
It's impossible.
I try my best, but it's very exciting.
There's a lot of opportunity.
There's a lot of innovation and, you know, different countries are moving at different
stages.
There are parts of the globe focusing on certain aspects of the energy industry for a long
time.
Others are catching up.
There are opportunities for countries and regions to learn from each other, to collaborate,
(35:21):
but there's a lot of opportunity right now.
It's a really exciting time for the energy industry.
It's amazing.
At some point, I saw an article talking about microbiology as a source of new energies.
I guess we're trying to figure out new ways of doing things and we're all learning from
each other, from new inventions.
At some point, I went to an AI conference and they were talking about using AI to improve
(35:45):
our energy as well.
Yes, technological advances, AI is actually a huge part of the energy industry.
Ways that we can innovate, make operations more efficient, any way that we can streamline
that we can help make energy more affordable for consumers is amazing.
And so we see this tie in and this connection of technology, of research, the chemicals
(36:10):
industry is tied to the energy industry.
It's just so all interconnected.
Do you think that's to improve this development and maybe to help the countries that need
to catch up a little bit in this alternative energy transition, foreign investment is helpful?
It's a huge part of the energy transition.
(36:30):
And we see that.
We see international players looking to invest in US energy markets.
We see US and other multinational based companies investing in other markets.
Their idea is to leave, like I was saying earlier, to leave no one behind.
So we look at various areas of the globe.
And I think part of the goal is to make sure that there is that investment and whether
(36:53):
that's coming from a governmental level or from the private sector to ensure that we
are ensuring a well-managed and thoughtful and strategic transitions that we don't have
regions or communities left behind in the transition.
It seems like so much responsibility to know so many different areas of law.
(37:14):
It's amazing.
Does this area of law then become stressful?
Is this maybe kind of a high-paced, high-energy, in quotes, industry?
It is definitely fast-paced.
Yes.
Yes.
And it can be overwhelming, but it's exciting.
I love what I do.
And it's truly a blessing to love what you do.
But it definitely is not for the faint of heart.
(37:37):
You are constantly learning, which is what I love about it.
I love learning.
I promised my family when I finished law school that I wouldn't go back for another degree.
But my cheat code is that working in energy law, I am constantly learning.
I'm not getting a piece of paper every three to four years to signify another degree.
But I am constantly learning, whether it's changing regulations, new technological developments,
(38:00):
just changes in the way that we finance and develop these projects.
There's always something to learn.
There's always a new development on the horizon.
So if you are inquisitive, if you want to be in a helping profession, if you love learning,
if you are comfortable with the unknown and diving in with challenges, then this is an
(38:23):
amazing industry for you.
So in the end of the day, do you have a secret to de-stress?
Do you have pets and dogs and cats?
Do you like the hike?
Is there something that helps reset you or keep you grounded?
Yes.
The water is my happy place.
Anytime I can be by the water is amazing.
And honestly, here in DC, that can just be going down to the Tidal Basin or to Georgetown.
(38:47):
That's definitely one of my happy places.
I don't have any pets now.
I had a dog.
He passed away.
He was an old man, though.
I'm sorry to hear that.
No, he was great.
He was a huge stress reliever.
I have plant babies now and I garden.
So that's part of my stress relief, taking care of my plant babies.
I wish I was better with plants, but I find them so relaxing as well.
(39:10):
Yes, I enjoy it.
Me too, but I will kill a cactus.
There were some sacrifices before I figured out migrating them.
Yeah, it's not easy, but it's nice.
But no, I enjoy gardening and my house plants.
I love traveling.
(39:30):
It can be hard because I travel a lot for work, but seeing new parts of the world, new
cities, I enjoy that as well.
You have to find your happy place, find your peace.
Make sure that you have that balance.
You want your career to be sustainable, especially for those who are in energy law, the legal
profession.
It can be very stressful.
It can be very challenging.
It's easy to get burnt out, but having a community that is supporting you and that backs you,
(39:56):
figuring out what your happy place looks like and investing and committing to that.
Self-care is huge.
I have my self-care routines that I try to commit to.
It gets hard when life gets busy, but I also have an amazing community of friends and personal
board of directors who remind me when I'm dropping the ball on that and they make me
(40:16):
get back to it.
You rely on your community and you find your way to survive even the most stressful of
professions.
Once you're out there, I guess you're on the road and you're doing speaking engagements,
you're mentoring, you're maybe attending a happy hour, does that also energize you?
It does, yes.
I am definitely one of those people who enjoys being out and about.
(40:38):
I'm not one to shy away from a networking opportunity or an opportunity to mentor, to
train, to teach.
I love speaking.
Speaking at conferences, I just this semester was a guest lecturer back at Duke Law and
got to spend some time on campus with students.
So I'm always happy to be out and about.
(40:58):
Did you find that differently to mentor versus being in a classroom?
You know, it was similar but slightly different.
There's something, a bit of pressure when you're standing in front of a group of students
who are looking to you for wisdom and guidance and knowing that they're also, they're paying
a pretty penny for their tuition to be sitting here listening to you.
(41:21):
But it was great.
I loved it.
Two of my classmates who are amazing attorneys, Al Gilly and Paige Gentry, developed this
course at Duke Law on teamwork and effective communication and leadership for lawyers.
They invited me as guest lecturer on their first module on leadership and it was amazing
to sit down with students and talk through real life scenarios, answer their questions,
(41:44):
really share authentically and openly about what it's like to be a leader and a mentor
and a manager and a trainer.
And to do that in the setting of teacher and professor was amazing.
I imagine imposter syndrome is not a problem for you anymore.
You know what?
I wish it was not.
(42:05):
The only person who I've ever heard say that she does not have imposter syndrome is Supreme
Court Justice Katanji.
She spoke at the Kennedy Center recently and she said that there was no room for imposter
syndrome because she earned it.
She knows she deserves to be where she is.
And I took that message to heart because despite being a partner and leading a team and winning
(42:29):
awards, it can still creep in there.
It's something that I wish wasn't still an issue, but it is.
If you are out there listening and you find yourself letting that doubt or fear creep
in, know that you're not alone, but channel your inner SCOTUS justice and remind yourself
that you've earned it.
You deserve it.
You are where you are because you put in the hard work.
(42:50):
So that's my newest mantra I got to remind myself.
Well, I appreciate you being here with us for the podcast and it's great to hear about
your journey and what energy law looks like because it sounds pretty optimistic in the
future.
There's so many places and I'm sure there are a lot of law students looking for a place
in this field and energy is definitely one of those.
(43:12):
Yes, there is a home for you if you're interested in energy.
Even if you're not, if you're just curious, I definitely encourage you to consider energy
as a professional pathway in law or otherwise, please come out.
I am always open to speaking, to connecting, to building community.
So I hope to see you at a conference or a networking and community building event sometime
(43:34):
soon.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
We've definitely learned a lot today.
It was great being here.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And
(00:28):
once again we are back with the Advocate Next Door.
My name is Kelly Balena.
I'm here, I'm back here with my co-host, my very special co-host.
Hello everybody, my name is Margarita Rango.
Today we have a very special guest in the area of energy law.
(00:48):
My special guest is Serena Bijuna.
Yes.
And you are a partner at White in Case.
Seeing it, you're LinkedIn, you do all of this amazing stuff in energy.
And it's seeing that you're so passionate and energetic doing panels, networking, teaching,
(01:08):
and at some point you're winning all of these awards.
I'm like, what is all of this energy about?
So welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
By the way, you are from North Carolina.
Is that where you grew up?
Yes, born and raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Oh, wow.
Yes.
(01:29):
It's actually a military town, although I was not directly tied to the military.
My mother grew up in the country outside of Fayetteville.
My father grew up in Uganda and East Africa.
And after finishing his graduate studies, was a professor at Fayetteville State University
and HBCU there in Fayetteville.
And so my parents met and raised my sister and I there.
Can I ask how your parents met?
(01:50):
They met working at the university.
My father was a professor.
My mom was working in administration.
And that's how a country girl from Eastern North Carolina met an East African.
And they fell in love and the rest was history.
What is it like living in North Carolina?
Because I got stationed there briefly in Jacksonville.
(02:10):
But I'm not sure if there's a lot to do that is inspiring your career.
Yes.
And Fayetteville in particular, having a military base there definitely has a lot of different
career trajectories.
You see people from all over the globe growing up.
I wasn't moving around.
A lot of my friends and family were being stationed various places across the globe.
(02:33):
It definitely provided a global worldview.
I'll be honest, I didn't really realize what energy law was until pretty late into my legal
education.
We can talk about that later.
But definitely having a father who grew up on the African continent and having his relatives
spread out throughout the world gave me a global vision.
(02:53):
Now working in energy, something that touches every community, every aspect of life, every
sector of professional and personal life and every aspect of the globe.
It definitely hits home and I oftentimes reflect on growing up in a very multicultural, globally
focused community, but also within a pretty small town.
(03:14):
But North Carolina was great.
I had the best of all worlds.
I was an hour and a half from the beach, which is my happy place being on the water.
A few hours from the mountains and great educational institutions throughout the state.
I did most of my education right there in North Carolina.
So it was a great foundation for this energy law career that I've dove into.
I never thought I'd be here 12 years later.
(03:36):
That's the things I wanted to talk about because graduating high school and then you go into
an area, you went to Wake Forest University and you were studying psychology.
Was there something that inspired you there?
Was that what you thought would be the next step towards law?
So I actually growing up thought I was going to get a PhD in psychology and be a clinical
psychologist.
(03:57):
Oh wow.
And the summer before my senior year of college, I spent in Boston, actually I was working
in a health and psychophysiology lab at Harvard.
I loved it, but I realized it was not what I was meant to do for the rest of my life.
And since I was-
Why not though?
Because like, was it just not what you were interested in or just not the kind of work
you wanted to do?
It was really interesting, but it didn't feel like my calling, if that makes sense.
(04:21):
I'm very purpose driven and I knew I wanted to be in a helping profession and I thought
that was my avenue to helping.
But since I was yay tall and I know folks can't see, but I'm putting my hand up about
three, you know, less than two, three feet.
Desk level.
Desk level.
Since I was like four, five years old, my father always said, like, you're going to
(04:41):
be an attorney, you're going to be a lawyer.
I did not believe him, but I was also that kid who would come up with my case and have
the trifold board with all of the facts and you know-
So he could see it before you could.
Yes.
He saw it before anyone else did.
I knew I wanted to be in that helping profession and I thought I would find that through psychology,
but I realized that summer that it actually may come through another avenue.
(05:04):
And that's when I realized dad was right and my helping profession would be through the
law.
But you were still fighting it because you went to the school of business.
I did.
So I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I also know I did not want to go straight
through.
I wanted some work experience.
I wanted to live a little, see the world before I dove into that stage of my journey with
(05:24):
a psychology degree.
I realized I may have limited opportunities for practical jobs coming straight out of
undergrad with just a bachelor's in psychology.
So I actually decided to go to business school so that I could get some more kind of just
kind of harder skills.
I did a master's of arts and management, which is the same programming as the first year
of an MBA.
(05:45):
Except you add on an extra summer and the professional experience you would get during
your consulting work, the summer between your first and second year of your MBA, I did year
round as an externship.
And so essentially I have the equivalent of almost a full MBA.
I could go back and do that final year specialization if I had wanted to.
And many people from that program do.
(06:05):
I didn't because-
On your spare time.
My spare time, yes.
My family actually, after I finished law school, made me promise I would not go back for another
degree because I squosed in another one between business school and law school.
But I wanted some skills, some real life experience.
And so I went to business school and then used that to help me get a job so I could
work for a few years between undergrad and going to law school.
(06:28):
So how does your knowledge and experience in psychology and business have helped your
legal career?
Oh, I use it every single day.
Between business school and law school, I did a program for women in politics and public
policy and energy.
Very interesting.
Policy, politics tie into it a thousand percent on a daily basis, whether it's thinking about
organizational behavior, thinking about communication, thinking about aspects of leadership, thinking
(06:54):
about just things like negotiation and decision making, these skills, these experiences that
I gained studying psychology, studying human behavior, studying interactions, going to
business school, working in finance and then in leadership.
It's all come together and it's this perfect package that allows me to really tackle every
(07:15):
aspect of our clients' issues and the issues that communities who we serve face, but in
a very holistic way.
I'm not just parachuting in with my legal mind, but I'm able to see the human aspect
of it, understand the policy, understand the underlying business and corporate motivations
without losing that sense of humanity as well.
(07:36):
After business school, I moved to Boston.
I wanted to challenge myself geographically.
Moved out of the South, had only lived in North Carolina other than study abroad as
an undergrad.
I worked in higher education.
I worked at the Kennedy School in the Center for Public Leadership.
I worked at a nonprofit there, did a lot of leadership work, did a lot of working with
decision makers, with business leaders, but also with pre-collegiate college musicians
(08:01):
and with college musicians and really was able to pull together all these pieces of
my past experiences and interests and broaden my horizon.
With that collective experience, I was ready to dive into what I thought would be the ultimate
educational experience.
I think the timing was perfect.
I didn't know necessarily what type of law I would practice, but I knew that I'd been
(08:23):
to business school.
I had this idea of how corporations operated.
I had worked in the nonprofit sector and understood how that worked.
I thought, I'll figure it out.
I'm ready to dive in.
I've tackled undergrad.
I've tackled various graduate level programs.
So let's see what this is all about.
After all that knowledge and experience, you are more than ready to become a lawyer.
(08:45):
You would think so, but I will tell you law school was the most challenging educational
experience I had.
It put them all to shame.
I love Duke.
I have amazing mentors, champions, members of my personal board of directors who I met
back on campus a decade and a half ago.
It definitely was a challenge, but one that was well worth the investment, pushing myself
and tackling what had been the goal for many years beforehand.
(09:09):
At a place like Duke, do they teach energy law?
So they do.
When I was in law school, I was aware of one energy law class back then.
It was cross-listed between the law school and the Nicholas School of the Environment.
And so I actually ended up taking that class my last year of law school.
I had an internship between my second and third year of law school where I discovered
(09:30):
energy law.
And so I went back and was like, okay, well, let's see if I can learn more about this before
I graduate.
And so I took that class.
Now there are so many courses at the law school, at the business school, at the Nicholas Institute,
Pratt, the Graduate School of Engineering has energy law classes.
There's a student association tied to energy law.
So you were there where there was one class.
Just the one.
(09:51):
There's so many resources now, but I love it.
I mean, I think it really shows the importance of energy in society from a professional perspective,
from an educational perspective.
And I think it also shows just really the importance of the energy transition and how
we are really appreciating academically, professionally, intellectually, how energy really touches
(10:12):
in and ties into every other aspect of life.
I love that students, whether they're undergrads or law students, are learning about energy.
Duke University, the undergraduate school has an energy club and they actually have
reached out and I've mentored some of them and spoken with them.
And so we have just not only law students who are now learning about energy and thinking
about energy law, but we have young, bright, 18, 19 year olds who are just starting out
(10:36):
in their undergraduate careers and are thinking about energy and what careers and energy look
like, whether it's law or finance or through government and policy.
We really have this next generation of energy leaders.
And I love it because it's so critical.
We really need that.
And it reaches so many different areas, not just energy law or something.
We could be talking about technology as well.
(10:58):
And we could be talking energy is in everything.
I challenge folks, I say, come up with one industry or one aspect of life that you don't
think energy touches and I will find a way to connect it.
It ties back to everything.
It is the great connector.
You are currently a partner at White in Case and you have yourself a great positive energy
(11:19):
about you.
I love that right now our audience can't see, but you're wearing this really amazing pink
suit.
You seem to be very open and friendly and energetic and passionate about your industry.
And so approachable and kind because sometimes international students have this vision of
how partners are and they're like, untouchable.
You know, they're so out of reach that you don't know how to talk to them or how to approach.
(11:44):
And sometimes it's not easy, but with you, it was like you make people feel comfortable
around you.
And that's really nice.
Thank you.
I truly appreciate hearing that you said approachable.
And I was going to say my goal really is to be approachable.
I, you know, I'm the only attorney in my family.
What I knew about big law was what I saw on TV.
And I knew that I didn't want to be the worst of that.
(12:04):
I believe in being authentic.
I try to lead authentically.
I try to lead with empathy.
And so I will walk into any room with my bright pink suit on.
I'm a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sword Incorporated.
So I love wearing my pink and green.
I love colors by the way.
So yes, I have a bright wardrobe.
I love bringing positive energy into a room.
(12:27):
Our jobs, no matter what we do, are challenging.
We're tackling some of the world's greatest challenges if we can't do it with a smile
in a collaborative way, then what are we doing?
There's no need to be cold or make things more challenging than they need to be.
So I really focus on trying to be approachable, trying to bridge that gap, trying to make
(12:49):
sure that everyone, whether aspiring law students or co-counsel or colleagues or anyone who
I've met and I'm sitting recording a podcast with, that we can connect and we can find
that common ground.
And so I take it seriously and everything from the way that I dress and walk into a
room to the way that I try to carry myself professionally, it's really important to
(13:12):
me.
I think it's part of my personal brand and it's something that I'm very intentional
about.
Do you have any tips you would give to anyone who is in a high level position when it comes
to mentoring students or the next generation?
Yes.
I think this is one of my favorite topics and I'm so thankful.
Mentorship is so important.
For me, it's about representation.
(13:33):
It's about providing that pathway for the next generation.
It's about pouring into others.
Advice that I have, anyone can be a mentor.
Oftentimes we may not even realize that we're seen as leaders or mentors.
So you don't have to have a title that is partner or practice group leader or anything
like that to mentor and to lead and teach.
(13:55):
I think it's really important that we all give back in the way that we can.
Coming up, I had amazing champions, sponsors, mentors, teachers who really poured into me
and really were invested in my long-term success.
And so it's important to me to pay that forward.
I try to think intentionally about how can I help the next generation and really when
(14:15):
I think about how do I measure my success, it's not necessarily, I love the awards that
I receive, but it's not about the award.
It's about how do I help my team and those who I'm training and who I'm mentoring and
I'm leading, how do I help them accomplish even more?
So if I got award X, how do I make sure that they get X plus so many more?
If I've made it to this level, I want to see them make it three more rungs up the ladder.
(14:36):
From my perspective, it really is about paying it forward and making sure it's support they
need and that they feel that they are championed and that they know that they can accomplish
whatever those goals are.
I think at this point, maybe for black women who are big law partners that specialize in
energy regulatory work, there aren't that many of us.
We need more.
Yes, we need more.
And so when I was coming up, I had champions who I saw who looked like me and now I want
(14:58):
those who are coming up behind me to be able to say the same thing, to say, okay, I see
Serena doing this.
I know that I can too and not for them to just see me, but for me to actually be putting
my hand down and pulling them up and helping them along the way, making sure that they're
able to accomplish that.
I really just encourage people, think about your pathway and what you struggled with and
make it a goal to at least find one person and help them not have to go through that
(15:22):
same challenge so that they're free to tackle whatever the next challenge is because we
know they're going to continue to come.
That would be my advice.
That's such a generous perspective.
On behalf of young lawyers, I really appreciate that perspective.
But also, Serena, what advice can you give to a young lawyer that is trying to build
a mentor-mentor relationship?
(15:43):
How to build that?
So I would say really be intentional.
Think about what you would like to gain from a relationship with a mentor.
Do your homework.
When I meet with mentees, I come prepared.
I ask, can I see your resume?
Can you tell me what it is you want to talk about?
I try to make sure that I've thought about it beforehand, but likewise, I expect the
(16:03):
mentee to do the same.
Come to me with concrete questions.
Let me know, is there something specific?
Is it general advice you want?
And know that as a mentee, you can be just as helpful to me as I can to you and really
embrace that because I think that it's important for each of us, no matter what stage of our
careers we're at, recognize the value that we can give and that we can always be paying
(16:26):
it forward.
And so, yeah, be intentional, be strategic, be prepared, and know that you're adding value
as well.
And I think if you come to walk into a mentor-mentee relationship with that perspective, you'll
get a lot more from it.
So hopefully to help anyone that's out there that has no idea what energy law must be like,
I see that there's a term that's kind of all over your LinkedIn.
(16:48):
It says FERC.
Is that part of energy law?
It is.
So energy law is a big batch of alphabet soup.
There are lots of acronyms.
Don't let them be intimidating.
But the shorthand that I used to describe to colleagues as to what our group does, we're
pipes and wires.
Think about anything that flows through a pipe or if it's conducted through a wire,
(17:10):
you should come to us.
So that's everything from oil, gas, liquids, electricity, all different forms of electricity,
whether it's natural gas fired, solar, wind, hydroelectricity.
There are a lot of different generation sources.
Energy involves the generation via those resources, the transmission distribution.
(17:31):
So moving whatever that generation type is from where it's created to where we need it
to power our lives.
And you mentioned FERC.
FERC stands for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
They are the US energy regulator at the federal level.
So they regulate the wholesale sale of electricity, transmission of electricity and interstate
(17:56):
commerce.
Those who are in law school, you're hearing interstate commerce, you may be having flashbacks.
They also regulate various aspects of the oil and gas industry at various levels.
There are other regulators.
There's the Department of Energy, which sits above FERC.
And then there are state energy regulators, state electric utility commissions, public
(18:20):
utility commissions.
There is NERC, which is the reliability coordinator for the US.
Lots of agencies at the federal, state and local level, but FERC is kind of the highest
and from a kind of regulatory and compliance perspective in the US.
And so shorthand for what I do, some folks often say I'm a FERC attorney, but I really
(18:40):
do even more than that.
How does a company determine what kind of energy they want to use?
I mean, they have a pipe, they want to light a light bulb.
Let's say they have to come through that determination.
Am I going to use nuclear wind or solar?
Are there things that you can help them to determine either the energy they use or once
(19:01):
they determine that, how to use it?
So in the US and most of the US, Texas is a little different.
They have their own grid.
But for non-Texas parts of the continental US, we actually have the majority of the country
organized markets.
We call these regional transmission organizations and they are these regional energy markets
(19:25):
on the electric side and they regulate the various utilities and other energy market
participants within that geographic territory.
So a company may want to, for example, power their operations using renewable energy, depending
on if they're in a particular organized market, seek to, if they have retail choice in their
(19:47):
particular state, they may be able to find a provider that can source their needs using
renewable energy.
But, you know, this is divided between wholesale levels like sales for resale and then the
retail level.
So depending on what level we're looking at, it's very complex, but various mechanisms
that will determine what type of energy source are available to you.
(20:10):
We're lucky in this country, we have a great mix of our grid and it's complex and, you
know, we want to make sure that we constantly have reliable, safe, affordable electricity.
And so there is this generation mix.
You have some resources that can stay on around the clock based on generation like nuclear
that was not going to be turned off necessarily.
You have other resources that can come online quickly if there's a spike and we need something
(20:35):
quickly.
So maybe like a natural gas plant.
And then we have what we might call intermittent resources like wind, solar, you know, the
sun's not going to be shining 24 hours a day here in the US.
The wind may not always be blowing, but we can use those resources when they're available
or with batteries, which are a huge part of energy.
We can maybe capture that and then deploy that energy when it's needed.
(20:56):
But it's a very complex system and, you know, finding that right mix oftentimes is the job
of that regional market operator.
Depending on where you are as individuals, we may decide, for example, to put solar on
our rooftops and then maybe take advantage of that.
A large corporation may be bound to buy from their local utility if there's not retail
choice.
(21:17):
So it's very complex, but we can definitely all educate ourselves.
I think it is important whether we're trying to actively make decisions about how our electricity
is sourced or not.
I think it's important to understand what our system looks like, what our grid looks
like and ensure it remains reliable and resilient so that we are able to power our lives for
the foreseeable future.
(21:38):
Are your clients primarily companies who need advice with regulations and setting up?
I'm assuming there's a lot going on.
So I have a very diverse portfolio in that I work on transactions.
I may be working with companies who are looking to buy and sell energy companies or energy
assets like a power plant or transmission line.
I do bread and butter regulatory and compliance.
(22:00):
So I help companies or sometimes even individuals who have to make filings to various energy
regulators, whether it's FERC with a state utility commission or NERC on the reliability
side.
I also at times represent individuals in investigations enforcement.
So if a regulator has a question about the functioning of a market, they may open an
(22:22):
investigation, I may be representing a company or perhaps an individual energy trader or
someone who is part of the energy industry that is being questioned by a regulatory authority.
I also do litigation.
So I may be representing companies that are regulated by FERC in a hearing at FERC before
(22:42):
an administrative law judge, before an ALJ.
It's a wide range, but companies who invest in the energy industry, actual market participants,
so public utilities or independent power producers, transmission owners and operators, honestly,
companies that don't even look like a traditional energy company.
(23:03):
So for example, financial institutions may be investors in the energy industry.
You have educational systems, universities who may have concessions for their utility
operations on their campuses.
They could be a client.
Anyone focused on procuring clean energy, looking to enter the energy industry or who
(23:26):
has questions about our grid and how it operates could be a client.
So it's a pretty broad base.
Because it's so broad and hopefully that gives a student hope to say, oh, this is an area
that could still have room for me.
Yes, there's tons of room.
There's room for all of you.
If you have an interest in energy law or the energy industry from any perspective, there's
(23:48):
room for you.
Trust me.
We are on the cusp of one of the largest scale transitions and investments in the energy
industry that we've seen in my lifetime and probably in many lifetimes.
We need energy attorneys.
We need folks who specialize in finance.
We need engineers.
(24:10):
We need linemen who are working in the field.
We need folks who specialize in training and teaching.
Any type of skill that you can imagine, we need that specialty within the energy industry.
So yes, there's definitely room.
There is only going to be more and more opportunity as technology evolves, as the regulations
(24:33):
develop, as we're seeing really just historic levels of investment at the federal level,
at the local level in the energy industry.
There's certainly a lot of need.
So we need this next generation to get excited and to get engaged and to lean into the energy
industry.
How to get into the energy industry.
(24:53):
You just graduated law school and you're looking for something to do.
You're interested in energy law.
How do you get into the industry?
So there are a lot of really great resources that are available.
The Energy Bar Association, the EBA, is a great one for law students and recent graduates.
It's a national association of energy professionals.
(25:14):
They have amazing trainings that are available online.
There is a Young Lawyers Council.
It's an amazing group.
Shout out to one of my associates, Jackie Triggs, who is co-chair for the Young Lawyers
Council of the EBA.
They're an amazing resource.
The ABA, the American Bar Association, has a number of committees that focus on energy.
(25:34):
I co-chair the Energy and Environmental Litigation Committee.
So we welcome students who are actually building out a law student advisory council.
And we're working with students and professionals, again, providing those opportunities for training,
for mentorship, to write, to author, to get your name out there.
For members of underrepresented communities, the American Association of Blacks in Energy
(25:58):
is an amazing group, ABE.
We have an amazing chapter here in DC.
I'm a media past president for our ABE DC chapter, but it's a national association of
energy professionals, not just lawyers, but many attorneys as well.
Again, great training, great networking opportunities, great substantive programming.
There are lots of associations.
There are associations for women in energy.
There are associations tied to specific types of resources, women or men in clean energy.
(26:23):
If you can imagine it, it exists.
So I definitely encourage you to do your research, get on the internet, Google these associations,
reach out to energy attorneys, reach out to a lot of law schools right now have great
energy programs, reach out to the faculty there.
But there's a lot of interest on the legal side within the energy bar to really grow
(26:46):
and develop this next generation of leaders.
There are people out here who want to mentor, who want to train.
You can go online, amazing resources.
FERC has amazing resources online.
There's a lot of information out there.
I think just taking the time to sift through it is probably the hardest part.
But we are an industry that is very much looking to invest in the next generation.
(27:06):
That sounds amazing because I'm assuming just hearing you describe so many different aspects
of energy, but also industries.
I imagine that it also becomes an opportunity to expand into other areas like antitrust
or global investigations or different fields.
(27:27):
You're talking about transactions.
Exactly.
There's a lot of overlap, a lot of synergy.
At White in Case, I work with my M&A colleagues.
I sit within the project finance group.
I work with antitrust.
I work with our environmental specialists.
I work with our ESG and sustainability teams.
I work with our investigations teams.
(27:47):
Energy, it touches on all those areas with finance.
You think about banking.
It all ties together.
So yes, having a foundation of energy really allows you to interact with other specialists
across just about every practice area you can imagine.
Because like I was saying, energy, it touches it all.
There's finance involved in energy.
There's construction involved in energy.
(28:10):
There's obviously investigations.
There are other regulatory implications outside of just, for example, in my practice at times,
I practiced before the CFTC, the SEC at times can be involved.
There's just so many ways that energy touches so many other substantive legal areas and
(28:31):
also other areas of business.
Now you primarily work in the United States, but are there other regulatory agencies or
energy law for people who are not in the US?
There are other countries that regulate and do all of this as well?
What's so fascinating is that every country and even within countries here in the US,
(28:51):
every state does it slightly differently.
And so there are energy attorneys across the globe.
I have colleagues, white and case colleagues who practice energy law across the globe.
Actually now we're building out our global green policy regulation and incentives practice.
And so part of that is really looking at the regulatory regimes across the entire globe,
(29:11):
especially as we're thinking about energy transition and green energy and green policy
and changing regulatory landscapes.
It truly is a global practice.
So for the people who doubt when it comes to energy and people who don't follow the
rules, does that also go into maybe white collar crime issues or is it just mostly fines
(29:32):
when it comes to the government?
So there it is more than fines.
And we never want clients who are on the wrong side of things.
But for example, FERC, they have an office of enforcement and they have a pretty severe
penalty authority.
They have almost at this point $1.5 million per violation per day penalty authority on
(29:53):
the civil side.
They can require disgorgement of unjust profits.
They can require civil penalties.
Depending on the type of activity, there can also be criminal liability.
We've seen cases over the past few decades where we've had those instances where there's
been a particularly egregious activity.
And in those instances, there are serious monetary fines, but also potential criminal
(30:18):
liability.
So it is serious business.
So this is an area where you want to have your attorney who deals in energy know what
they're doing.
Yes, you do.
You want amazingly competent energy counsel who will help you stay out of trouble.
And really, as a regulatory and compliance attorney, I really like to focus on making
(30:40):
sure that you have a solid foundation, great compliance programs, a great culture of compliance.
You have the measures in place that you never get in trouble in the first place.
But if you find yourself on the wrong side of an investigation, there are great counsel
out there who can help guide you through that process as well.
So a moment ago, you were talking about watching movies in big law.
Does the day job affect your personal life when you're trying to enjoy a good movie,
(31:04):
read a good book on the law?
I'm sure there's some pretty good energy law cases out there that have been featured
in movies.
Oh, there are, you know, there's so much out there.
And I will tell you sometimes it's a little hard because my brain is like, wait, that's
not real.
That's not how I actually know.
We're like, oh, wait, yes, that is that's spot on.
So it's actually funny sometimes trying to watch TV or movies.
(31:27):
But I think increasingly, we will see this coming up in pop culture even more.
Because like I was saying, this really touches every aspect of life.
I think art oftentimes imitates life, and right now, energy is a huge part of life.
And so we see, you know, those those trends and the prevalence of energy and everything
from TV to culture to entertainment to education.
(31:51):
It's everywhere.
So when we talk about energy transition to maybe alternative energy, green energy, who
needs to do that transition companies or also states?
How does that work?
And how do you see that going right now?
So the energy transition will really involve all of us.
I have this amazing infographic that I love to share that it blows your mind.
(32:13):
And I literally could spend an entire day talking about it, but it really sets out the
energy transition and the various components of it.
And the answer is all of the above.
It's the government, it's the private sector, it's the public sector, it's individuals and
thinking about our impact on our communities, it's going to require an all in collaborative
(32:36):
effort.
I like to focus on the transition part of energy transition.
I think that there can be a misperception or a lack of appreciation for what the energy
transition actually will entail and require.
And you know, we're not at a point where we can snap our fingers and all of a sudden,
we're going to have a change in what our energy markets look like and what our energy use
(33:01):
and consumption looks like.
But when we have all of these actors working together, hopefully in a coordinated fashion,
then we're able to take stock of where we are and where we want to be and work together
collaboratively to aid in that process.
There's a lot of opportunity for traditional energy companies and energy sources to be
(33:22):
combined with new technology, with new frameworks so that we don't end up with stranded assets
and so that we don't end up with companies or communities that are left behind in the
transition.
I truly believe that if we are coordinated, we can navigate a transition in a way that
doesn't leave communities behind and also creates unprecedented amounts of opportunity
(33:47):
for those who are already a part of the industry, but for those who aren't as well.
With so much changing in the area of energy innovation, are we finding new sources of
energy?
I mean, is it entering the area of space or geothermal type of energy?
There's every type of new development that you can imagine.
(34:11):
We think about something like nuclear and there's, you know, small modular reactors
that are being looked at right now.
You think about something like offshore wind and there's like what you might think of
of traditional offshore wind, but then there's this concept of floating offshore wind.
You know, we think about transmission and there are things like underground cables to
help with offshore wind, for example.
(34:34):
There's just an amazing amount of opportunity and the technology is constantly being developed.
And so we have this great opportunity for scientists and engineers and innovators to
come together.
And I truly believe only limit is the bounds of our imaginations.
I wish I could keep up with all of the new developments and new technology.
(34:59):
It's impossible.
I try my best, but it's very exciting.
There's a lot of opportunity.
There's a lot of innovation and, you know, different countries are moving at different
stages.
There are parts of the globe focusing on certain aspects of the energy industry for a long
time.
Others are catching up.
There are opportunities for countries and regions to learn from each other, to collaborate,
(35:21):
but there's a lot of opportunity right now.
It's a really exciting time for the energy industry.
It's amazing.
At some point, I saw an article talking about microbiology as a source of new energies.
I guess we're trying to figure out new ways of doing things and we're all learning from
each other, from new inventions.
At some point, I went to an AI conference and they were talking about using AI to improve
(35:45):
our energy as well.
Yes, technological advances, AI is actually a huge part of the energy industry.
Ways that we can innovate, make operations more efficient, any way that we can streamline
that we can help make energy more affordable for consumers is amazing.
And so we see this tie in and this connection of technology, of research, the chemicals
(36:10):
industry is tied to the energy industry.
It's just so all interconnected.
Do you think that's to improve this development and maybe to help the countries that need
to catch up a little bit in this alternative energy transition, foreign investment is helpful?
It's a huge part of the energy transition.
(36:30):
And we see that.
We see international players looking to invest in US energy markets.
We see US and other multinational based companies investing in other markets.
Their idea is to leave, like I was saying earlier, to leave no one behind.
So we look at various areas of the globe.
And I think part of the goal is to make sure that there is that investment and whether
(36:53):
that's coming from a governmental level or from the private sector to ensure that we
are ensuring a well-managed and thoughtful and strategic transitions that we don't have
regions or communities left behind in the transition.
It seems like so much responsibility to know so many different areas of law.
(37:14):
It's amazing.
Does this area of law then become stressful?
Is this maybe kind of a high-paced, high-energy, in quotes, industry?
It is definitely fast-paced.
Yes.
Yes.
And it can be overwhelming, but it's exciting.
I love what I do.
And it's truly a blessing to love what you do.
But it definitely is not for the faint of heart.
(37:37):
You are constantly learning, which is what I love about it.
I love learning.
I promised my family when I finished law school that I wouldn't go back for another degree.
But my cheat code is that working in energy law, I am constantly learning.
I'm not getting a piece of paper every three to four years to signify another degree.
But I am constantly learning, whether it's changing regulations, new technological developments,
(38:00):
just changes in the way that we finance and develop these projects.
There's always something to learn.
There's always a new development on the horizon.
So if you are inquisitive, if you want to be in a helping profession, if you love learning,
if you are comfortable with the unknown and diving in with challenges, then this is an
(38:23):
amazing industry for you.
So in the end of the day, do you have a secret to de-stress?
Do you have pets and dogs and cats?
Do you like the hike?
Is there something that helps reset you or keep you grounded?
Yes.
The water is my happy place.
Anytime I can be by the water is amazing.
And honestly, here in DC, that can just be going down to the Tidal Basin or to Georgetown.
(38:47):
That's definitely one of my happy places.
I don't have any pets now.
I had a dog.
He passed away.
He was an old man, though.
I'm sorry to hear that.
No, he was great.
He was a huge stress reliever.
I have plant babies now and I garden.
So that's part of my stress relief, taking care of my plant babies.
I wish I was better with plants, but I find them so relaxing as well.
(39:10):
Yes, I enjoy it.
Me too, but I will kill a cactus.
There were some sacrifices before I figured out migrating them.
Yeah, it's not easy, but it's nice.
But no, I enjoy gardening and my house plants.
I love traveling.
(39:30):
It can be hard because I travel a lot for work, but seeing new parts of the world, new
cities, I enjoy that as well.
You have to find your happy place, find your peace.
Make sure that you have that balance.
You want your career to be sustainable, especially for those who are in energy law, the legal
profession.
It can be very stressful.
It can be very challenging.
It's easy to get burnt out, but having a community that is supporting you and that backs you,
(39:56):
figuring out what your happy place looks like and investing and committing to that.
Self-care is huge.
I have my self-care routines that I try to commit to.
It gets hard when life gets busy, but I also have an amazing community of friends and personal
board of directors who remind me when I'm dropping the ball on that and they make me
(40:16):
get back to it.
You rely on your community and you find your way to survive even the most stressful of
professions.
Once you're out there, I guess you're on the road and you're doing speaking engagements,
you're mentoring, you're maybe attending a happy hour, does that also energize you?
It does, yes.
I am definitely one of those people who enjoys being out and about.
(40:38):
I'm not one to shy away from a networking opportunity or an opportunity to mentor, to
train, to teach.
I love speaking.
Speaking at conferences, I just this semester was a guest lecturer back at Duke Law and
got to spend some time on campus with students.
So I'm always happy to be out and about.
(40:58):
Did you find that differently to mentor versus being in a classroom?
You know, it was similar but slightly different.
There's something, a bit of pressure when you're standing in front of a group of students
who are looking to you for wisdom and guidance and knowing that they're also, they're paying
a pretty penny for their tuition to be sitting here listening to you.
(41:21):
But it was great.
I loved it.
Two of my classmates who are amazing attorneys, Al Gilly and Paige Gentry, developed this
course at Duke Law on teamwork and effective communication and leadership for lawyers.
They invited me as guest lecturer on their first module on leadership and it was amazing
to sit down with students and talk through real life scenarios, answer their questions,
(41:44):
really share authentically and openly about what it's like to be a leader and a mentor
and a manager and a trainer.
And to do that in the setting of teacher and professor was amazing.
I imagine imposter syndrome is not a problem for you anymore.
You know what?
I wish it was not.
(42:05):
The only person who I've ever heard say that she does not have imposter syndrome is Supreme
Court Justice Katanji.
She spoke at the Kennedy Center recently and she said that there was no room for imposter
syndrome because she earned it.
She knows she deserves to be where she is.
And I took that message to heart because despite being a partner and leading a team and winning
(42:29):
awards, it can still creep in there.
It's something that I wish wasn't still an issue, but it is.
If you are out there listening and you find yourself letting that doubt or fear creep
in, know that you're not alone, but channel your inner SCOTUS justice and remind yourself
that you've earned it.
You deserve it.
You are where you are because you put in the hard work.
(42:50):
So that's my newest mantra I got to remind myself.
Well, I appreciate you being here with us for the podcast and it's great to hear about
your journey and what energy law looks like because it sounds pretty optimistic in the
future.
There's so many places and I'm sure there are a lot of law students looking for a place
in this field and energy is definitely one of those.
(43:12):
Yes, there is a home for you if you're interested in energy.
Even if you're not, if you're just curious, I definitely encourage you to consider energy
as a professional pathway in law or otherwise, please come out.
I am always open to speaking, to connecting, to building community.
So I hope to see you at a conference or a networking and community building event sometime
(43:34):
soon.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
We've definitely learned a lot today.
It was great being here.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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