September 17, 2024 • 56 mins
Ayana Johnson, founder and partner at Johnson Legal, began her career as a NY Assistant District Attorney and now specializes in estate planning and elder law.
She shares the importance of having a will, with cautionary tales of what can go wrong without one, including a story about a cat inheriting an entire estate.
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Ayana Johnson from Johnson Legal
Bio:
Ayana Johnson spent the first few years of her career as an Assistant District Attorney in Brooklyn, New York, where she prosecuted and indicted hundreds of cases. She later moved on to an estate planning law firm in Maryland, where she had the privilege of learning about asset and family protection through the use of estate planning documents. Further, Attorney Johnson has interned at the United States House of Representatives, at the Superior Court for the District of Columbia, for the Office of the Federal Public Defender for the District of Delaware, and for the Delaware Department of Justice.
Talking points:
Contact Info:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayana-johnson-esq-173b22126/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnsonlegalpllc
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61555284787382
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@johnson.legal
Website: https://johnson-legal.co
Phone: +1 (929) 322-4006
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, so we're back on the show and today we have Ayanna Johnson from Johnson Legal
(00:29):
and I'm really glad that you're here because we got to meet at a great time.
Like we're both doing TikTok, which is great.
And I really value TikTok a lot because even with like 100, 200 followers, you get to meet
people in your area, in your industry.
And it was great that you were in DC and I'm like, I need to reach out to this person and
(00:54):
get a coffee because one of the first things that I noticed about you, and I don't know
if anybody ever tells you this, you just light up when you're walking in a room.
You like light up and you're just, you seem so energetic about your profession, what you
talk about.
I think a lot of people wouldn't get a chance to get to know you.
So thank you very much for coming on.
(01:15):
And Margarita Rosa is here with me as well.
We wanted to start off because we were talking off the record here, but you grew up in Delaware
and the most I know about Delaware is the great beaches, great places to shop and stuff.
But you grew up there.
What was it like growing up in Delaware?
Maybe there's a lot of tourism.
Is there a lot to do by the way?
There's nothing to do.
(01:36):
There's nothing to do?
The beaches.
Were you mostly like on the farmland, beach land?
So there's really like three ways to think about the state.
It's cut up in three counties.
So there's the North County, which is Wilmington and adjacent to Philadelphia.
Sorry, I know I'm eating this candy.
Oh, what kind of candy are you eating?
Just a mint.
I heard it's like good for if you're on a podcast to like eat a mint.
(01:59):
I have to confess, I had one before starting.
Really?
Yeah, it's really good.
It's supposed to be good.
See, I had the ice water and that wasn't helping me, but you guys were telling me that ice
water is really bad for you.
I told you it's not a good idea.
No, it's great.
I appreciate the hostility.
Occasionally I'll do bubble gum, like minty bubble gum, and it'll help me.
It's with my sinuses as well because the allergies in D.C. are crazy.
(02:22):
Insane.
But OK, so sorry about that.
So Delaware is cut up in three pieces.
I know the audience is really excited to hear about what kind of mint and this is pressing
stuff.
That's the kind of thing that we talk about here.
But yeah, Delaware is a really small state, only three counties.
So the northmost most county is really like almost a Philadelphia suburb.
(02:44):
Definitely has its own charm.
But Wilmington is like the big city in Delaware.
It's the only place that you'll see giant buildings or even big office buildings like
what we have in D.C.
Delaware is actually one of the best states to incorporate a business into.
I've heard that.
So yeah, I see like every corporation that I sometimes represent is incorporated in Delaware.
(03:05):
Is that just because of the taxes?
It's because of the like laws surrounding a corporation.
My mom took the Delaware bar.
My mom is an attorney.
She's a public defender in Delaware.
And she said that when you're studying Delaware law and preparing for the bar there, any like
corporate question, corporate law question is just like screw the shareholders.
Like whatever happens, the company is always going to be able to make it out okay.
(03:27):
Now that's me having like a very limited corporate.
Like I don't really understand corporate life to corporations in law school.
But anyway, the north part of the state is I would say more industrial.
The central part of the state is almost all farmland.
Like it's smaller cities, more so towns and then just a lot of rural.
But stepping back, because this is all about you, by the way, this is all about you.
(03:50):
So you went to law school.
I have here that you went to Howard.
Howard which is one is a very prestigious school.
I love attorneys that come from Howard because they always seem to know what they're doing.
Thank you.
And then you grew up in a family of lawyers.
Your mom was a public defender.
Okay.
And your father?
He was a professor at Delaware State University.
(04:11):
Okay.
So you had a lot of background in legal education.
I mean, was that the reason why you decided to pursue law or is there not much to do in
Delaware other than law on the beach?
Well, there's nothing to do in Delaware, unfortunately.
I mean, if you like the outdoors, it's great.
People go hunting, they go fishing.
You can do all that kind of stuff.
(04:32):
You can't hike.
It's completely flat.
Like we have some hills up north, but like not-
I never thought about that.
Okay.
There's no hiking trails.
You're just running on the beach pretty much or-
Or just like walking through a field.
You were part of like an outing club in your school.
I was.
And that didn't involve hiking.
Was that just going out?
Well, up north Delaware, you can do a little bit of hiking, but we would take trips to
(04:55):
like we took a trip to Great Falls, Virginia, which is-
I love Great Falls.
Yeah.
That's like actual hiking.
Yeah.
Wow.
Kind of.
It feels like it when you look down.
I think that maybe more than in Delaware then.
Yes, for sure.
I want to bring small children to Great Falls though.
There's so many little places for them to fall.
Oh God.
Oh, I'd be so stressed.
Yeah.
Okay, so-
(05:16):
Have you ever seen the people that put their kids on a leash?
Oh, yes.
Yes.
If I went to Great Falls with a child, I might have to put them on a leash.
Kids on a leash.
Or in backpacks.
I put them on my backpack.
I was like, why?
And you realize that dogs can also fall, so-
That's true.
That is true.
Positive notes.
I like the positive notes right now.
The positive notes and-
So you're a very outdoorsy type of person.
(05:37):
I do enjoy the outdoors for sure.
Yeah.
Yup.
Like yoga.
I saw that you had a TikTok where you were biking around the city.
I do love the Capital Bike Shares.
Yeah.
They're a lot of fun and they're pretty cheap.
Oh no, they're great.
There's just so many hills in DC.
It depends on whatever hill you hit.
Depending on your route, biking is great.
I know.
Sometimes I pick the longer route so I don't have to go up a hill.
(05:59):
Probably not this weather.
Oh my gosh.
No, but I would like to go back a little bit and ask you a little bit more.
How did you get to Washington?
That's a great question because Delaware so far, unless you were on a train with Biden-
It's so funny you say that because his son, rest in peace to him, he was very involved
in Delaware politics.
(06:21):
Most of the people I know met his son before he passed away.
Really?
He was really, really involved and really nice guy, salt of the earth kind of guy.
I grew up in Delaware.
There's nothing in Delaware.
You get two types of people in Delaware, which I think is a lot of places.
You have people who grew up there and they're like, I love it here, I'm never leaving.
They buy a house down the street from their parents and they're down the street from
(06:41):
their cousins and they're down the street from their uncles and everybody is there.
Then on the flip side, you have people who are like, oh my God, I'm never coming back
here.
I'm leaving, I'm never looking back.
This is not great.
You build a great community, but you just move out.
Nobody stays in Delaware.
Everybody knows everybody.
I think that's hard.
It is hard.
There's no secrets.
I know, but some people like that.
Some people, they're like, oh, it's a community.
(07:02):
I hate anybody being in my business.
I'm pretty much an open book.
Which is a great reason to come on our podcast.
Let me tell you all my secrets, but on my terms.
But anyway, so growing up in Delaware, not a whole lot of options.
I went to the University of Delaware, which is North, like Northern Delaware, and that's
where I met my husband.
And we graduated from the University of Delaware and I was a criminal justice major and philosophy,
(07:28):
randomly enough.
I wanted to be a police officer.
Why philosophy?
I just like philosophy.
I like pontificating.
I've heard of attorneys who take philosophy.
Yeah.
Apparently philosophy, like almost all of the majors go to law school and like they
do really well.
I'm like, wow, that's interesting.
Have you ever quoted Socrates in a brief or something?
I haven't gone that far.
I have actually seen briefs with quotes.
(07:48):
They'll introduce it with like a quote from Socrates.
I like that.
I actually really like that.
But yeah, so I was going to be a police officer.
I was really interested in criminal justice reform and I was kind of thinking, you know,
I'll go be a police officer and I'll change the system from the inside out.
And then the more I learned about the system, I was like, oh, this is not a like boots on
the ground type of change.
(08:09):
Like this whole thing needs to be thrown out and redone.
Which then I'm thinking.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
But was there like a single event that made you realize like I want to be a cop.
I want to change the system.
Or was it the stories from your mother from her public defender days?
Honestly, I don't know.
It was probably a mix.
(08:29):
My dad taught in the HBCU and it was really important to him, like growing up, that I
understand basically like the plight of black people in this country, the history, how it
shaped everything.
And I'm like five years old and he's showing me pictures of like transatlantic slave trade
ships.
I'm like, what is this?
But you know, learning that early and like being able to appreciate it.
(08:51):
And then him, of course, teaching at an HBCU, which is like rich in history.
I think that was a piece of why I wanted to be involved with criminal justice reform.
And when I was in college was when we were really seeing like this resurgence of black
people being killed on video, like unarmed, running away in some cases, being shot in
the back, being shot for no reason.
(09:13):
I think that was also part of what kind of lit a fire under me.
I won't say I'm not the type of person.
Some people are like, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer from when I was a kid.
I didn't.
I just knew I wanted to make a change somehow.
So I was going to be a police officer.
Then I started learning that I think there would be a better way to go about the reform
piece.
So I decided to apply for law schools.
(09:34):
I wasn't even going to apply to go to Howard, but my mom went to Howard.
So she was like, oh, you should just apply and see.
That's great.
Yeah.
So we went there.
It was so funny.
We were like touring the campus and she's like, that was there when I was here.
That was there.
Okay, mom, please.
Do you want to come here with me?
It was really giving like, maybe I should come back.
I was like, oh gosh.
So checked out the campus.
(09:56):
I never lived in a city ever before.
I wouldn't call where I went to college a city.
It's like a college town.
Right.
But you're in Delaware and suddenly you're in DC, which is a big change.
I mean, it wasn't New York, but DC is still a big change.
There's a lot going on here.
Absolutely.
My first time riding the metro train, I was so scared because it was going side to side
on the red line.
And I'm sitting there looking around like, is anybody else freaking the fuck out right
(10:19):
now?
Just me.
And they were standing, standing with their bikes and stuff.
I was just terrified sitting there like clutching my backpack, but it's fine.
I got used to it.
I love DC a lot.
So yeah, that's how I got here.
That's a really great story.
So you met your husband a long time ago in college and were you in like a class together
(10:41):
or you ended up doing a criminal justice major together as well?
No, no, he was an English major.
He's been into like Shakespeare and like really all of that.
The good literature and things of that nature, which I mean, I like to read, but I'm not
like, oh, we're for art though.
So we actually met, we went to the same high school, but we didn't run in the same circles.
(11:05):
He was like prom king and I was like listening to like Green Day.
I'm like purple hair.
Is that where you compromise and you watch musicals together?
Is that like sort of in the middle?
We do like a good musical.
I'll say that.
Okay.
But you had purple hair.
Oh yeah.
I had like all the colors in my hair.
That's so crazy.
(11:27):
Your friends had purple hair or something.
I try to dye my hair once blonde, but blonde like it was like the sun.
Oh my God.
It was so bad.
I'm going to say your hair is so dark.
I feel like it would be hard to get it blonde.
No, it's so hard.
It looks healthy and beautiful now.
Thank you.
I fought very hard to get it healthy again.
(11:50):
But how did you do?
I mean, I love your hair by the way.
What happened with all the hair dying?
I don't know.
I think I just kind of grew out of it.
I was very like emo kid when I was in high school.
I was just very like, I'm so cool.
Like I need to have all the colors in my hair and do all the things.
But yeah, we ran in different circles.
I think there needs to be more lawyers who have their hair dyed.
(12:12):
I agree with you.
You see that a lot of the Barbie suits, you've got different styles.
I don't know if they allow that in the courtroom.
I don't know if Peking County allows for the pink suit.
Oh my God.
They do?
Yeah.
That's great.
Doing law, being a law student, she still practices in DC.
Her name is Brandi Harden.
She's like legendary criminal defense attorney.
(12:33):
She always taught us as trial ad students, you only wear navy and you only wear black.
She didn't let the men wear colorful socks.
She didn't let them wear colorful tie.
You had to have a panty hose on.
And her whole thing was you are going to learn how to make an argument and make your argument
the most interesting thing about what you're doing in the courtroom.
(12:54):
That's very important.
Mind you, she's coming to our practices in bright emerald green suits.
And I was like, I want to wear what you wear.
But she was like, no, while you're learning to do this.
First you have to master what you say.
I appreciated that.
But even now, DC is full of lawyers.
You walk down the street, there's every different type of lawyer.
If you're ever in a room, chances are there's at least five lawyers.
(13:15):
I think it's like 80% lawyers.
They're not all practicing or past the bar, but they are lawyers.
Yeah, a lot of lawyers and a lot of gray, like a lot of gray and navy and things like
that.
I like only wear bright suits.
Like yesterday I had my fuchsia suit on.
And what color nails do you have here?
I have a nice little coral color today.
(13:37):
Those are very nice.
It's like somewhat muted.
I had like the bright blue last month.
So okay, I have to say that I love that.
Thank you.
I live in Colombia, so color for us is really important.
For me, it's so weird to be wearing black and gray and navy.
I love those colors as well, but I mean, I love red and pink and yellow.
(13:58):
That was hard for me when I get to DC because I mean, it's a whole lot of different culture.
In Colombia, you wear a lot of colors.
In here, that's so weird.
But I love that you have this mentality because...
I wish our office room, we could actually paint a different color.
Every office is white or something.
I want a whole bunch of different colors.
(14:20):
Make it really...
At least a mural or two.
That's inspiring.
I think color is inspiring.
I think a lot of...
A mural sounds great.
That would be fun.
I don't know who would paint it, but that would be really great.
We'd have to outsource that for sure.
But yeah, I think one of the things that I really like as an attorney is having fun with
it.
There are plenty of attorneys that don't like their jobs, don't like what they do or how
(14:43):
they do it, which is any profession.
It's not to dig on attorneys.
But the gray suits, the Navy suits, I have a gray suit and I have a Navy suit.
When the situation calls for it, that's what I'll be wearing.
I may always err on the side of being more conservative when going into a courthouse
for the first time.
If I were to go to a courthouse in a more rural area, I'd be wearing a black suit.
(15:04):
I'd be wearing a gray suit.
But in places that I know, DC, New York, any color suit, as long as it's a suit, it's
not skin tight or ripped or anything like that.
In my opinion, that's professional.
I've seen attorneys, I won't mention the type of attorneys, but I've seen some attorneys
come to court and they have t-shirts on.
(15:24):
No.
Really?
It was notorious in Brooklyn.
Doesn't a judge just throw you out?
No, they don't.
They should.
I mean, but it depends.
It depends on the type of court, the level of the court, every judge is different.
But there, notoriously, we would go to court every day.
We were in court.
People would come in and they would wear a trench coat or a coat that had a collar on
(15:46):
it.
And they would be clearly wearing that over a t-shirt, but they would keep the coat on.
I was like, that's not a suit.
That's not professional at all.
That doesn't count.
So I've seen much worse than a pink suit.
I've seen just highly casual, so inappropriate.
So you work though in, I would say, I assume, like in a conservative area of law.
(16:06):
But going back through your history, because our audience won't know exactly where you're
coming from, you were a judicial intern in DC, also worked in the congressional area
for Delaware, a law clerk, did some work with Howard in a criminal justice clinic.
You have a lot of fascinating background in criminal justice.
(16:29):
And then you work in Brooklyn, in King's County, as an assistant district attorney.
So you've seen a lot of shit.
I've seen a lot of shit.
You've seen a lot.
And then you suddenly make the switch to estate planning and elder law.
I'm fascinated about that switch.
But also, what was the reason for criminal justice?
(16:50):
I'm assuming it's a lot, but maybe it's a lot that you don't want to do for the rest
of your life?
Or is it, there was something enticing about elder law?
I will say, from the time I was an undergrad, all the way through law school, exiting law
school, getting my first job, I always had the blinders on of criminal justice.
I always wanted to do criminal law.
I always wanted to be reform minded.
(17:12):
And my big thing is like, I feel like if you're going to get a degree, if you're going to
be qualified to work in a certain area, you should be working towards making the world
a better place.
And social justice is a big way to do that.
So I was always like, oh, I'm in it.
Push for social justice through criminal justice.
And I did have someone come talk to one of our classes when I was in law school.
(17:37):
And she was an estate planning attorney.
And she was telling us how one of the biggest issues with black and brown communities in
the United States is this lack of wealth.
Individual people and families sometimes become rich or sometimes work hard and make a good
life for themselves.
But it's actually like the transfer and building of wealth itself that doesn't really happen
in black and brown communities.
(17:58):
And she was talking about estate planning as a means for social justice.
So she had done work for people like the Waltons, like the biggest families in the country.
So she was really well versed in the state.
The Walmart family.
Yeah.
Wow.
So she worked for like hard hitters, like the richest people potentially in the world.
She would help them do estate planning.
(18:18):
And she was like, oh, no, this transfer of wealth would like really make a difference
in a lot of impoverished communities if we understood certain things with finance and
we understood how to pass that on and build the wealth.
But I'm confused because being from a family that I didn't get any kind of wealth transferred
to me, we grew up really poor.
What difference does it make if an attorney is involved?
(18:41):
I mean, if my parents had, let's say, ten thousand dollars to give to me under the mattress
and they give it to me, that's how I got my wealth.
Is it because the laws in the country make it difficult to just say here is the keys
to my house?
Here's my car.
Here's my bank account.
If I die, it's yours.
(19:02):
Shouldn't it just be that easy?
It should be that easy, but it's not.
It's not.
So what gets in the way?
Is it just because a bank comes after you?
I think people get in their own way a lot.
I think people get in their own way a lot.
So I think just generally speaking, it's not just from an attorney standpoint.
It's also from being financially literate.
So if your parents saved up ten thousand dollars and once they got to that point, stopped saving,
(19:27):
kept it in a safe place and knew we want to save this ten thousand dollars for you, let's
say they achieved that when you were five and when you were eighteen they gave it to
you.
If you were five and they had that ten thousand dollars and they put it in a high yield savings
account, an investment account, any number of different types of accounts that could
grow, you wouldn't be receiving ten thousand when you were eighteen.
You'd be receiving fifty thousand or whatever.
(19:48):
Do you see what I'm saying?
So there's a way to grow money.
I feel like I should have made more money now.
I know.
I sit here and think.
I feel like I should write down these tips.
Maybe we should be writing some of this down.
I always, whenever we've been thinking about buying a house and looking at what people
bought houses for in 1994, they're like a hundred thousand dollars and now they're
(20:10):
like five hundred thousand easily.
I should have bought a house when I was five.
What was I doing?
It's a waste of opportunity.
My mind gets polluted with Hollywood where always in this scene, some rich person on
your deathbed, you just like you just write on a piece of paper and write.
I give my entire fortune to so and so and then sign and like, well, isn't that what
(20:31):
I'm supposed to be doing?
Just make sure that I live long enough to write it down.
Doesn't it need to be notarized or witnessed or something like that?
What makes a will valid?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, for wills in general, like it is state to state.
It's specific depending on where you are.
And you're in Maryland.
I'm in Maryland and I'm in D.C.
You definitely need witnesses in Maryland.
(20:52):
You do not need a notary.
I don't believe you need one in D.C. either, but you just need the two witnesses for sure.
That's a big thing.
Yep.
But so back to your question about why does it actually matter if I have an attorney?
I would say the attorneys are more so like the protection of the wealth.
So like you built up all this, maybe you work with someone who's like a financial advisor
and they help you grow your 10,000 to 50,000 for your child.
(21:16):
What if you have two children, you leave a total of 100,000 to both of them, and then
one of the children starts arguing about who should get what?
I'm going to use the example of Aretha Franklin.
Her kids weren't necessarily arguing with each other, but she left one will handwritten
and then they found another will in one of her pieces of furniture, like one of her cabinets.
(21:37):
So then they had to figure out if that was real and when it was written.
And then they found another will in her mattress or in her couch cushion, excuse me.
Oh my God.
This woman's writing wills.
She was ready for everything.
But that was her like point of view.
As long as I write it down.
What if it had been music lyrics and the song was the will?
That would be a hit.
I'm telling you that right now.
(21:58):
But yeah, so she ultimately like her estate has spent so much money litigating what was
the final will and how can we prove it?
Can we prove it was her handwriting?
Can we prove that it was actually written when it was dated?
In some cases you're paying like handwriting experts.
You're paying attorneys to litigate with the other attorneys.
You're draining a bunch of money from the estate of what you would get because you're
(22:19):
arguing about it.
But what you would get would have to be worth all of that trouble.
I mean for $10,000 you're not going to do that.
No, you'd be shocked.
You're just going to duke it out.
Really?
I've seen people argue over $200.
Really?
Because it's not usually, sometimes it is about the money, like to be frank.
But it's like I want to get Grandmother's ring and it's just that important to that
person.
(22:40):
Sometimes it's even more insidious.
It's two siblings who never really got along but they didn't hate each other but one sibling
always kind of under the surface thought like, Mom likes her so much better.
I wish I was the favorite child.
And then when Mom leaves the will they're like, No, I disagree about this and this.
I mean you can just sit in the probate court and just listen to the most ridiculous arguments
(23:03):
that people make but a lot of it is really emotional.
You really don't believe certain things or they're hurt.
Yeah.
You know.
Probate court is a court that deals with this stuff.
Yep.
Sometimes it's called orphan court.
They're basically the one who judges who gets the baby or they split the baby.
(23:23):
Maybe.
I don't know.
But so they decide when the kids can't decide.
So ideally you're following the terms of a will.
But if there is no will or if the will is invalid for some reason, there are already
statutes in every state and DC which they say if there's no will here's who gets what.
It depends if you have a spouse that you leave behind or if your kids are minors.
(23:44):
If you have a dependent maybe an adult child with disabilities who is your dependent.
Depending on what your family structure looks like that's who will get what if you leave
things behind just in your name.
Well you're an expert in this field.
It sounds like you really know what you're talking about.
And the only reason I wanted to go down this road is because wearing pink at a court where
(24:05):
the children are fighting and I'm assuming that there's a lot of seniors in this practice
that are your most of your clients might be seniors.
People who are trying to write something down to pass it down to their family estate planning.
I don't know what the difference between estate planning and elder might be is that like when
they're getting admitted to a nursing home and who has the I guess the living will or
(24:30):
who gets to pull the plug.
Yeah.
I mean like by definition is any legal type of system or problem or matter that an elderly
person has.
So a lot of times it is things like nursing homes Medicaid sometimes it's like elder fraud.
So elder law like generally speaking a lot of people think of it like things like guardianship
(24:51):
and things of that nature but it really like can span so many different types of issues
that could come up and affect an elderly person.
But to your question on why I switched it up.
I had this lady who like came to our law school and was telling us this is a good means of
social justice helping people pass on their wealth and build intergenerational wealth
and generational wealth and that's a huge way to help level the playing field.
(25:15):
And I never really thought about I never thought about writing a will as having that type of
effect.
Especially like a systematic effect like that.
Looking back on the history like there was a time where only white men could be landowners
and only landowners could vote.
So when you're thinking about some of the importance to leaving assets behind only white
men could inherit assets.
(25:36):
They can only inherit if I can't inherit land and I don't I can't get the right to vote.
So it has some history there.
And then in some cases like you did have some women especially like back in historical times
who were like inheriting a house or something like that.
But it was usually only if there was no man in the family like it wasn't just the wealth
wouldn't just leave the family but it would go to a woman with the goal that it would
(25:56):
eventually like get back to a man.
Is that still an issue today?
Not as much.
No there used to be certain laws like you can only leave things to your blood descendant
and then if you had like a black parent.
Your father would be who determined what race you were or excuse me your mother would be.
So if you were a raped slave you had a mixed child because the mother was a slave you were
(26:21):
not considered a rightful heir to that person.
And on a lot of the books there were laws only like white men can have land and can
only own land and what parentage actually makes you like things like the one drop rule.
And then you have de jure and de facto racism which is also playing a part which is like
actually codified laws that said only certain races can do certain things or have certain
(26:45):
rights and then you had some things that were just kind of the way of the world at the time
like de facto was more so the community determining what is what.
And anyway let me not digress into that.
I decided to make the switch because I learned that from her and I did a couple free like
clinics.
I guess you could say as a law student neighborhood legal services is an excellent organization
(27:08):
in DC that provides help to indigent folks who can't afford attorneys.
They would do wills for veterans so you would just go dedicate your time make sure that
a veteran could come in get a will written properly witness and yeah keep it pushing
from there.
It's really nice to give back in that way and that kind of got my wheels spinning on
it but I was still like no I want to do criminal law.
(27:29):
So then I went up to New York I did criminal law.
My husband did not want to stay in New York long term so he came back to Maryland and
I was like he loves Maryland.
He loves Delaware if we could live in Delaware he'd want to live in Delaware but I'm the
second.
Is he more of an introvert?
I can't be there.
I don't think he is sometimes he says he is but he's one of those people whose whole family
(27:51):
is in Delaware.
His mom is there his uncle his aunt his cousins his grandma.
My family is from Pittsburgh so I don't have the full tribe how other people have in Delaware
so I just don't feel like there's anything for me there.
My mom lives there but otherwise that's literally my only blood family that lives there so I'm
not interested but I decided when we moved back there would be no time like then to switch
(28:13):
things up before just like fully railroading my life in the criminal law space.
So I got a job randomly it was posted got a job at an estate planning law firm that
was really well known in the kind of like Annapolis area.
Great place to learn how to do elder law and estate planning.
Are you talking about Sinclair?
Yep yep so that was a really good place to learn.
(28:36):
Ultimately it wasn't super aligned with like my social justice minded piece of it so I
decided I wanted to try something else.
Try family law immediately no.
I cannot do family law it is too much for me.
That's a whole other book.
You know anyone in family law?
It's a lot.
Every attorney that I met that I was like I'm gonna try a family law firm they're all
(28:58):
like good luck girl like you're not gonna like this.
So I.
That's not when the children are fighting it's like when everyone is fighting against
each other.
I think some people are confused because they're like well how can you do criminal law but
not family law and I'm like well there's not like a pettiness involved in criminal law
the same way that it is in family law.
Like you want to talk about people wouldn't argue about this.
(29:19):
People argue about everything in family law.
People will argue just to argue because there's again like in the same way that sometimes
in probate and just in the estate planning world sometimes people argue it's almost always
emotionally based.
It's not logical.
Sometimes it's like if you actually set them down and you're like but why do you care?
They couldn't actually give you an answer they just know they care about a certain thing.
(29:42):
Family law is like that times 10 because there's usually a relationship that has broken down
like a romantic relationship.
You get people who are like I don't want their new girlfriend or boyfriend around my kids
and I'm just like but you don't get to determine that.
Like you have a say and it's your child and you should have a say but you just don't like
you don't have a reason not to like them.
Like you ask them but why do you not want them around your kid.
(30:03):
I don't you know I don't I don't like this or this or this.
I'm like but that's not I can't tell a judge you don't like the way that they drive their
car.
Like you need something like tangible to say this person shouldn't be around my child.
But a lot of times it's just hurt feelings and I understand that.
I just can't be involved.
So once you realize this is not for me what was the next step?
(30:25):
Was that where you just decided I'm just gonna do my own thing?
Yep absolutely.
Wow was that scary?
It was and it's still kind of scary.
Yeah like everything depends on you and your clients and who you meet and everything depends
on you.
Yep.
How long have you been doing your own thing?
Since January it's very new.
Wow that's great.
Thanks.
Are you liking it?
I do like it.
(30:46):
I really do.
Like today I was running all around but like everything I was doing I knew was my representation
of my brand and it was for my clients and like I think it's a little different.
I will say the biggest transition for me in doing any private practice like any law firm
work was the payment.
Like the money piece to it because when you work for the government you just get your
paycheck.
(31:06):
It doesn't matter if you mess something up.
Also when you're like a district attorney you don't have a client per se.
Your client is the people.
It's the state you know.
You don't have to sit back and answer to somebody.
You have to answer to victims on victim crimes but even then I don't take direction from
the victims of a crime.
If they tell you like I'll never forget I had like stabbings.
(31:29):
I had like people shooting each other pulling guns on people.
Very violent very scary things and one of the most passionate victims I had was just
a neighbor dispute and they wanted their neighbor arrested for just yelling at them and like
put in jail.
I'm not going to do that.
I know you're upset but I'm not going to ask for jail time because they yelled at you.
(31:51):
That's ridiculous.
I don't have that petty power.
No and I'm not going to.
And I get it you're upset but like me putting this person in jail is not going to fix your
situation you know what I mean.
So anyway I just say that to say like family law has a lot of pettiness that I don't find
in other areas personally.
Then again I haven't done all the different areas of law.
(32:13):
I'm sure there are petty there's pettiness in like any area but family law was just too
much for me.
But I was admiring your LinkedIn and saw that you do a lot of conferences for different
people.
Not only elder communities nursing homes.
Like how do you find clients because I also saw that you speak at high schools and I thought
that was great too.
You know get them early before they think before they accumulate wealth.
(32:38):
Yeah I just like to do things that are like giving back.
You know what I mean.
You have a lot of heart.
I think I think that's the nicest part about you is that you have a lot of heart.
Being where you are growing up and realizing that there's so much to do.
You're out there trying to make real social change and spreading the message and that's
(33:00):
really great.
So I really hope that people reach out to you and get the help that they need because
it sounds like this is an area of law where you want your attorney to care.
Yeah for sure.
I also like I really admire that you have a lot of heart too.
But I want to ask how do you keep that lot of heart.
(33:22):
Oh that's great.
I mean after seeing the shit.
The big thing.
Yeah.
You told us you have seen because it's hard sometimes that light might go might turn off
you know.
But you clearly still have it.
So how do you keep it.
That's not easy.
Like I think a lot of it is doing things that like re light my fire because there are times
(33:45):
it's gotten very dim.
There were times where I was an assistant district attorney where I was like I can't
help people in this situation.
I don't feel like I did a good job.
I just felt down.
I you know imposter syndrome also like creeps in.
And then you go to a speaking event with an attorney who's like no I actually was able
to like I don't know solve an entire systematic issue or even helping one family.
(34:08):
Like having someone who was a complaining witness that was just like I just want to
thank you that you really helped me.
That is like one of those things that just relights your fire right away.
In the like estate planning world going into court and seeing people argue about what I
think is silly being able to sit with my clients and plan ahead of time to make sure that the
(34:29):
opportunity for argument is minimized is really empowering for me because I know that I'm
helping them achieve that final goal.
Nobody wants their family arguing when they're gone.
So that is definitely I would say finding the inspiration through my own clients and
like my clients the peace of mind that they get when they actually sign their will or
their trust or their power of attorney knowing my kids aren't going to argue.
(34:52):
They know what I want like if I'm ever in an end stage of my life they know what I want.
They're not going to feel guilt that they pulled the plug on me because I asked them
to.
So things like that like being able to know I'm empowering people and helping people is
the big thing for me.
And then just being inspired through other people's stories for sure.
And do you do maybe something to keep your energy this clean because I'm a whole lot
(35:14):
of vibes by the way.
I saw that you like to travel.
Is that is that something you like to do a lot to keep your energy of like you were in
Greece at some point.
Oh yeah.
That's when I studied Socrates.
I went where he was teaching and it was so like oh my god.
The best place is philosophy.
Maybe it is.
(35:36):
I think in my personal life I've like really minimized bad friendships and bad relationships.
I think that was this is going to sound so silly but like turning 30 I was like you know
what I don't have time to be drained by people like I just really don't.
If it's in the process of helping a client that's just what it is.
(35:56):
That's work.
But when it comes to like my personal life I protect my peace.
My husband and I have a really strong relationship so we don't have to worry about foolish things
that I've worried about in the past with partners.
I have my dog.
He's like my baby.
So sometimes I just have a bad day and I just like sit next to him on the couch.
What kind of dog do you have?
I sit with him.
I have like I have a Labradoodle.
He just looks like a poodle though.
(36:18):
He looks like he's so funny.
He's just he's oodle.
He's oodle poodle.
I miss New York a lot sometimes because a lot of people will say like oh New York is
such a lonely city like people are so unfriendly.
That was not my experience at all and Brooklyn is its own vibe and every neighborhood is
its own vibe.
But we had the best neighbors.
(36:40):
We lived in an area known as Flatbush which is like a very heavily Caribbean population
and we just had the funniest neighbors.
We had one lady who would always like she'd be across the street down the block and she'd
be like there he is the show dog.
Look at him.
He's such a show dog.
And like people just like announcing like look at that poodle over there like just screaming.
(37:02):
It was always just fun to take him on a walk because I would get to know my neighbors and
but people just love him and they truly think he's like a purebred poodle.
You know shows and they're like is that is he does he compete.
I'm like no he's not your bread.
So are you the kind of dog mom that just takes him to special grooming and get his nails
done and he has a groomer.
(37:23):
Yeah.
She's the best.
She has a purebred poodle and she dyes it like fun colors.
I've seen those.
Yeah.
She's a dog esthetician which I didn't know was even a thing.
It was honestly like luck of the draw too because when we lived when I was in law school
I lived in Silver Spring which is like right north of D.C. and I was able to just drive
(37:44):
down the road like barely into D.C. and that's she has a home like grooming.
So she was his groomer since he was a baby.
Then we moved to Brooklyn then we moved back and we moved to Prince George's County when
we came back to this area and we were like we should look at full up and see if she's
still doing this and she is and she was like 10 minutes from our new house.
That's amazing.
(38:04):
10 minutes from Silver Spring down to Prince George's County.
I was like this it's feels like a sign.
And she remembered him right away.
She was like look at him he looks so good and you know she's she has been through her
own fair share of things.
She started her business with her husband and she lost her husband and I again so much
(38:24):
of what estate planning is is like there is nothing that we know in life.
We're sitting here chit chatting doing our podcasts like and that's awesome.
A freaking like bomb could go off in the middle of the street and you know like that's true
you know what I mean.
You never know and especially in light of covid and all the other things that have happened
in the world in the past few years.
(38:45):
No day is promised but it feels so real when I work with people who I did your trust last
year and you passed away this year.
That must be really hard to see clients just that you're losing a lot of time.
I mean my favorite one of my favorite clients passed away after we did her estate plan and
she was just but she was the best.
(39:05):
Like I she she was like a little old lady.
I can't give you a lot of details about her but she was very quiet.
You may think she doesn't have the capacity to create a legal document for herself but
if you ask everybody else to leave the room which is what you should do as an estate planner
if you have work like a test or something right to see if they're competent you want
to gauge that.
Because if you don't have competency I can't I can't create a binding legal contract if
(39:29):
you don't understand what that means.
So that's part of what you have to do if you have any worries you should clear the room
have it just be you and that person and just sit down and talk to them and see if they're
like actually picking up on what's happening.
She was so funny I had her kids leave the room her adult kids leave the room and I was
like so like what do you want.
She's like I told you what I want.
(39:49):
I want this this and this like she was like spicy.
I was like okay you are good.
She just wakes up.
She but like another part of like what can be hard is like a lot of times adult children
become their parents advocate.
Like you go through life you're a child and your parent is always looking out for you
and then when that switches and you have to look out for your parent you're protective
(40:11):
you're worried about them your heart is in the right place but as the attorney I need
your place to be in the hallway because I need to talk to your parent.
You need to do what you do.
And if they don't have capacity then the children are more involved because it's like we have
to go through guardianship or whatever the alternative is.
You also have to make sure that they're not forcing the parent to say something.
(40:33):
Exactly and that's a huge thing.
Which I imagine is with the state planning.
It's like yeah you promised me all the rings mom.
Yeah exactly and you'll go to like probate sometimes and part of why people are fighting
is they're like I didn't think that my parent had a will and the other child is like I took
them to write this will.
And sometimes like the details start coming out and it's like oh this is problematic.
(40:55):
Like you can't write a will for somebody else and I've seen kids write wills for their parents
and then have them sign them and of course they're insufficient.
Like they're legally not sufficient.
It's a legal document.
You can't just and like it's tough too because I don't want to bash any company in a public
forum but I was in Staples the other day and they have like form wills.
(41:16):
And I was just like huh and they have form power of attorney documents and like for example
like just a little template that you just fill out and then.
For example in both DC and Maryland there are statutory power of attorneys.
So if you have just some random form power of attorney and you need to use it for your
parent you go to Chase in DC or in Maryland they can say I'm not accepting that.
(41:38):
You have to have the DC or Maryland version.
Like and it's a title is.
Specific language for specific situations or where they live.
Yes and I probably should know more about this before I say this in a public manner.
I don't understand how places like Staples can sell legal document templates and it's
not considered a practicing law.
(42:00):
Like I actually that's a great question.
I actually truly don't know.
And that's probably going to be a bigger problem as we get into AI when different companies
offer these kinds of services.
Are they practicing law or not.
Right.
Right.
Maybe because they're a company they're selling something.
That's a great point.
I don't know because some of like the companies like LegalZoom for example if you're an attorney
(42:21):
they have attorneys working for them.
Like when you talk to somebody at LegalZoom it's an attorney.
Like I have friends who have their own law firms and also on the side will do like LegalZoom
or do you know all these different companies now offer these things.
But like as long as it's an attorney telling you this that's fine.
But if it's just and maybe an attorney drafted I know I would never do it because I feel
(42:42):
like the first person assuming I lose my law license.
But just seeing that I was like oh this is kind of problematic.
One sure fits all type of situation when it comes to wills.
Because some people might have property in different jurisdictions.
You might have different family members your family not all families are the same either.
So you have to split it up differently.
Yep.
(43:03):
You may have trust.
Some people may cut out.
Some people you intentionally want to cut out.
Yeah it's very.
Not that bitch in the corner.
Right.
I hated her.
And I love that.
But yeah it's definitely very individualized.
So having like a form that you feel like not the best thing in my opinion.
(43:23):
Because the worst thing that could happen is let's say I have a hundred thousand dollars
to give to my kids and I filled out a form and the court would then reject it and they're
stuck going to probate court.
Is that what.
Can you enforce that.
So there are a couple of things.
Like the requirements of a will are just the requirements of a will.
(43:44):
Like if you wrote your will on a piece of like construction paper in crayon as long
as you have your two witnesses and you have capacity to write your will that's a will.
It doesn't matter really the form.
That's a challenge.
Yeah.
I think I want to do that now.
Right.
And there are like there's something known as a holographic will.
(44:04):
So like what you were mentioning before like watching TV and seeing people like on their
deathbed like let me sign this like last last thought or last will or whatever.
There is something known as a holographic will which is always in movies and TV which
is where like people are in on sinking on the Titanic and they just write on a napkin
give everything to my love or whatever you know the drama.
(44:26):
That is not enforceable in many states.
Some states have that some states you can write your own will.
You don't need a witness.
You don't need two witnesses.
Because they're doing it under duress or some situation.
It's like just at least like if I pulled up the Maryland Code it's like a handwritten
will without the formalities that are required by the law.
And Maryland you can do that in a very specific situation.
(44:49):
If you're a member of the armed forces if you're abroad if it's like I don't remember
the code off the top of my head because I've never ever had a person that met that criteria.
Really what it sounds like is the law is so complex when it comes to this different jurisdictions
different areas different situations that one size fits all form would not work.
And if it if he tried it you're basically testing the waters.
(45:12):
You're testing the water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I mean I was in court the other day and unfortunately a gentleman his daughter
took him to write his will.
I don't know if she took him somewhere just printed off a form or whatever but they didn't
do it right.
And then the wife who is not the mother of the daughter is challenging and she's like
well I want to be the executor of the essay I don't want her to go.
(45:34):
And she didn't even know there was a will because the daughter was the person that took
the dad to go do it and it was before he met new wife.
So then there was like the dynamics of like that's not my mom and you know and it was
like a whole thing.
And by the way these proceedings are public.
So like anybody could have sat in that courtroom and known all of these people's business so
they can take notes and then come back which also like a lot of people are like that's
(45:58):
mortifying.
Like not only would I not want to leave an estate plan that's incorrect I would hate
for my two most loved people my wife and my daughter to be fighting publicly in court
about my situation my situation with my ex-wife my new wife my daughter.
It was a whole thing and at the end of the day like if they choose to argue this out
(46:19):
they're going to waste a bunch of the money.
I think I want to put a clause in my will that says that if my kids fight about this
that they get nothing.
They have that.
It's called a no contest clause.
Oh really?
Yeah.
So I think that's a good way to do it.
So I'm going to leave the documents for that exact reason.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow you're a genius.
Peace of mind.
People want to know that there's not going to be silly arguments over stuff.
I'm going to advise my family to do that.
(46:39):
Yeah.
Now I'm assuming you're not the kind of person that just law is just all your life.
It sounds like you do like to do a lot of other things but on your spare time are you
the kind that likes to watch like these documentaries like with was Brittany like I want to know
if you were just watching you're like wait a second she should have called you.
Brittany you should have called me girl.
(47:00):
No I really well I will say this I can't do the true crime.
I can't do true crime.
I really can't do like.
Is it stressful or you just like you want to give them advice.
Sometimes it's stressful but sometimes it's also like I do this all day.
Like I need a break.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I bet.
But like what was the movie Knives Out that just came out.
Yeah.
That was like really entertaining and funny.
I like that and it's like the will was read and I don't even remember all the context
(47:24):
of the movie but.
So dramatic.
Yeah it was so dramatic.
I mean we don't have formal will readings.
That's not a thing.
I mean maybe if you have like a high powered like family they're doing that but like no
we don't do that.
That's not right.
I've told every ex I've ever had had at a breakup I said I want you at my funeral to
be holding the black umbrella in the background.
(47:45):
In the background.
Right.
One single tissue.
Even if it's not raining you must do this.
This is my last will.
Oh my god.
And if you don't do it I will haunt you.
I will haunt you.
I will haunt you.
Oh gosh yeah.
There's a lot of ins and outs to this area of law that I never thought about until I
started doing it.
And I was like oh this is interesting.
(48:06):
What kind of shows do you watch then to de-stress to like just get your mind off.
I'm watching a lot of cartoons with my kids so.
Bluey I'm guessing.
Bluey yes.
Yeah he's huge.
I love him.
People love Bluey.
It's so nice.
My cousin watches.
She has an Australian Shepherd.
Oh my god he does?
Yeah he's so cute.
Those things are active.
Those are some active dogs.
Oh they are.
What do you do with him to keep him like.
(48:27):
Actually he's really well trained.
I train him myself.
So he's really chill.
He knows when to be active and when not to.
He understands.
He's pretty smart actually.
They're very very smart.
They are.
They're like one of the smartest dog breeds.
Can dogs get whales?
No.
But there are pet truss.
I'm assuming you've seen it all.
Like somebody has asked you this at some point.
(48:49):
I will say the pet truss.
Or can a cat or dog get de-estate really?
There's like a famous famous case of this woman in New York.
New York City.
She had a cat.
Her kids didn't visit her.
She didn't have friends.
She didn't have family.
But she had this cat that she loved.
She left every penny that she had to this cat.
(49:09):
So the way that you would set that up.
I've seen this in TV shows.
I thought it was de-est.
No.
It's based on that lady.
She's iconic for leaving her cat everything.
And her kids were like let's kill this freaking cat.
Which I assume you're not allowed to do?
Yeah.
No.
I can't do that.
I can't do that.
But it's very interesting too because this is ushering in this idea of pets are considered
(49:31):
property.
So even in some people's wills it says I leave my cat or my dog to my sister or my mom or
whatever.
A lot of people don't think about that.
And if you were to die and you have for example a very high energy dog breed and the only
person that you've left behind who's like your loved one is your elderly parent, they're
probably not going to want a high energy dog.
(49:51):
And a lot of them end up at shelters.
If you've gone to a shelter and read the little placard, often times it's like their owner
passed away.
Like it breaks my heart when they're also old dogs.
Oh my god.
But let me not get too sad because the state planning doesn't have to be sad.
But pet trusts are basically set up where you're setting aside this like pot.
When you cross the line.
This is too much.
(50:12):
Well this is when they're actually your child.
Some of us.
Yeah.
I get it.
I get it.
But you would leave this money and you would entrust a certain person to manage the money
for the benefit of the pet.
So I would see more of it like at practicing in Maryland.
A lot of people who have horses and stuff, they need to be specific about where they're
going to go because otherwise it's like well what the F am I going to do with a horse?
(50:34):
Like what would I do if I inherited a horse?
I live in an apartment.
An apartment, right.
I can't just park it at five.
Yeah.
So for the people that don't want to do that.
And sometimes like especially like some areas of Maryland are huge equestrian areas.
Like they have racing horses.
Yeah.
Like in Poolsville I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially down south.
But they have a lot more livestock.
And then people who have farms like you will probably want to be specific about what happens
(50:58):
to your farm animals and equipment and things.
There's other laws and tax issues with some of that stuff too.
But anyway, I digress.
It's not one size fits all for sure.
But a lot of people like to keep their pets involved to an extent.
Oh, and by the way, that cat that inherited all that money is like was it's not alive
anymore was like living its best life.
Like, no, but it had like, I want to say over a million dollars.
(51:20):
It inherited a whole bunch of money though.
Like it.
It doesn't.
It just knows its treats taste really good.
It's like going to like a nice bed and like doing anything it wants literally.
I hope that the food quality went up the moment the cat inherited.
I don't know.
I desperately want to look this up.
Yeah.
This sounds like a great story.
(51:42):
But yeah, it was quite some time ago.
Well, I learned a lot from you.
I mean, thank you for coming on.
Like I've learned a lot.
One of the reasons I reached out to you initially was like, oh, you've got to do my work here.
But I live in Virginia, so I'm fortunate I couldn't use you.
I know.
I know.
Oh man, that bites.
But it really just brings up a fear in me.
Like what happens if like tomorrow I get run over a bus?
(52:04):
Like I haven't even my wife all my passwords to accounts and things.
And even though she might be designated a beneficiary, she might have to go searching
for a lot of this stuff.
My kids might have questions, property, all this stuff.
It's just you assume that you'll get to it when you're older or there'll be something.
(52:27):
Some moment that you realize, OK, I'm going to finally sit down and do all this stuff.
But we really never actually get the time to do that.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's on a lot of people's to do list for many years.
Yeah, for sure.
People come to you.
Are they in a state of I'm ready to do this or are they usually just in a panic state
like somebody either just passed away or is just been diagnosed with stage four cancer?
(52:51):
Is that kind of it all?
You've seen it all.
Some people are like my mom and dad did this and now they're like pressuring me to do it.
I need to do it.
And I'm like, yeah, you do need to do it.
However you get to it is great.
But a lot of the most motivated folks are people who have just lost somebody and gone
through a not so fun situation or they are people who have a diagnosis or yeah.
So you kind of run the gamut.
(53:12):
It's just when are people motivated enough to do it to move it up the to do list to like
number one or number two.
Thinking about assumptions to a lot of people are like, well, if I get sick, my spouse can
just handle everything for me because they're my spouse.
Right.
You'd be amazed at the amount of spouses that call me and they're like, I'm at Chase and
they won't let me access my husband's bank account who is alive and just sick.
(53:33):
And they won't just let me or you can't call him because he maybe has dementia.
If your name is not on a bank account, banks are not going to be like, oh yeah, come in
and spend the money.
It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
To go to.
So sometimes people like think ahead and put authorized users.
So that's like putting a bandaid over a certain situation for a while.
But it's a lot of stuff where we're like assuming like, I'm sure it'll be fine.
(53:54):
And then it is not fine.
And sometimes it is like sometimes people have very simple plans and it works for them.
Like again, it's not one size fits all.
Not everybody needs a trust.
Not everybody needs a pet trust.
By the way, Carl Lagerfield left his cat almost two million dollars.
Oh God.
Chopet.
Two million dollars.
Chopet.
One point five million dollars by the late designer.
(54:17):
So yeah, it's like.
For two million dollars, I will dress up in the cat suit.
Pretend to be his cat.
Well, that's the thing, right?
A lot of people are like, well, now I want to take care of the cat.
But there was a woman in Shanghai who also said her kids never visited her.
So she was going to leave 20 million won to her pet.
Yeah, it's like it's it's a thing.
(54:38):
It's like truly a thing.
There's a one lady who is like iconic about it.
But like even if you I'm just like scrolling Google deceased New York woman leaves three
hundred thousand dollars to her two cats, a wealthy woman from the Bronx, New York.
It's just cat.
OK, that was funny.
Cats inherit enough to fund nine lives was one of the headlines.
I'll give them that.
(54:59):
That's right.
Yeah.
So yeah, you can do like anything you want.
And some people are like, I love my cat more than my kids who don't visit me.
So.
Well, it's been great having you on the podcast.
And if someone actually is interested in protecting themselves from giving all their money to their
cat, how would they reach you?
It's Johnson dash legal dot CEO.
(55:20):
Yes, that's my website.
And they can also just give me a call as well.
My main law firm's phone number is nine to nine three to two four zero zero six.
OK, well, we're sure to put that on the podcast information.
But thank you so much for coming in.
It was a lot of fun.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much.
I've I've definitely learned a lot.
And I wish you know what?
(55:40):
I mean, I'll move back to Maryland just so I can.
I try to make these conversations less morbid because it's not fun to talk about dying or
being sick.
Yeah, it is something we need to talk about.
It's a lot less fun if we have to deal with probate or have no paperwork.
So I think you make dying easier.
Oh, my God.
(56:01):
Sounds like superheroes.
You are a superhero.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thanks for having me, guys.
All right, so we're back on the show and today we have Ayanna Johnson from Johnson Legal
(00:29):
and I'm really glad that you're here because we got to meet at a great time.
Like we're both doing TikTok, which is great.
And I really value TikTok a lot because even with like 100, 200 followers, you get to meet
people in your area, in your industry.
And it was great that you were in DC and I'm like, I need to reach out to this person and
(00:54):
get a coffee because one of the first things that I noticed about you, and I don't know
if anybody ever tells you this, you just light up when you're walking in a room.
You like light up and you're just, you seem so energetic about your profession, what you
talk about.
I think a lot of people wouldn't get a chance to get to know you.
So thank you very much for coming on.
(01:15):
And Margarita Rosa is here with me as well.
We wanted to start off because we were talking off the record here, but you grew up in Delaware
and the most I know about Delaware is the great beaches, great places to shop and stuff.
But you grew up there.
What was it like growing up in Delaware?
Maybe there's a lot of tourism.
Is there a lot to do by the way?
There's nothing to do.
(01:36):
There's nothing to do?
The beaches.
Were you mostly like on the farmland, beach land?
So there's really like three ways to think about the state.
It's cut up in three counties.
So there's the North County, which is Wilmington and adjacent to Philadelphia.
Sorry, I know I'm eating this candy.
Oh, what kind of candy are you eating?
Just a mint.
I heard it's like good for if you're on a podcast to like eat a mint.
(01:59):
I have to confess, I had one before starting.
Really?
Yeah, it's really good.
It's supposed to be good.
See, I had the ice water and that wasn't helping me, but you guys were telling me that ice
water is really bad for you.
I told you it's not a good idea.
No, it's great.
I appreciate the hostility.
Occasionally I'll do bubble gum, like minty bubble gum, and it'll help me.
It's with my sinuses as well because the allergies in D.C. are crazy.
(02:22):
Insane.
But OK, so sorry about that.
So Delaware is cut up in three pieces.
I know the audience is really excited to hear about what kind of mint and this is pressing
stuff.
That's the kind of thing that we talk about here.
But yeah, Delaware is a really small state, only three counties.
So the northmost most county is really like almost a Philadelphia suburb.
(02:44):
Definitely has its own charm.
But Wilmington is like the big city in Delaware.
It's the only place that you'll see giant buildings or even big office buildings like
what we have in D.C.
Delaware is actually one of the best states to incorporate a business into.
I've heard that.
So yeah, I see like every corporation that I sometimes represent is incorporated in Delaware.
(03:05):
Is that just because of the taxes?
It's because of the like laws surrounding a corporation.
My mom took the Delaware bar.
My mom is an attorney.
She's a public defender in Delaware.
And she said that when you're studying Delaware law and preparing for the bar there, any like
corporate question, corporate law question is just like screw the shareholders.
Like whatever happens, the company is always going to be able to make it out okay.
(03:27):
Now that's me having like a very limited corporate.
Like I don't really understand corporate life to corporations in law school.
But anyway, the north part of the state is I would say more industrial.
The central part of the state is almost all farmland.
Like it's smaller cities, more so towns and then just a lot of rural.
But stepping back, because this is all about you, by the way, this is all about you.
(03:50):
So you went to law school.
I have here that you went to Howard.
Howard which is one is a very prestigious school.
I love attorneys that come from Howard because they always seem to know what they're doing.
Thank you.
And then you grew up in a family of lawyers.
Your mom was a public defender.
Okay.
And your father?
He was a professor at Delaware State University.
(04:11):
Okay.
So you had a lot of background in legal education.
I mean, was that the reason why you decided to pursue law or is there not much to do in
Delaware other than law on the beach?
Well, there's nothing to do in Delaware, unfortunately.
I mean, if you like the outdoors, it's great.
People go hunting, they go fishing.
You can do all that kind of stuff.
(04:32):
You can't hike.
It's completely flat.
Like we have some hills up north, but like not-
I never thought about that.
Okay.
There's no hiking trails.
You're just running on the beach pretty much or-
Or just like walking through a field.
You were part of like an outing club in your school.
I was.
And that didn't involve hiking.
Was that just going out?
Well, up north Delaware, you can do a little bit of hiking, but we would take trips to
(04:55):
like we took a trip to Great Falls, Virginia, which is-
I love Great Falls.
Yeah.
That's like actual hiking.
Yeah.
Wow.
Kind of.
It feels like it when you look down.
I think that maybe more than in Delaware then.
Yes, for sure.
I want to bring small children to Great Falls though.
There's so many little places for them to fall.
Oh God.
Oh, I'd be so stressed.
Yeah.
Okay, so-
(05:16):
Have you ever seen the people that put their kids on a leash?
Oh, yes.
Yes.
If I went to Great Falls with a child, I might have to put them on a leash.
Kids on a leash.
Or in backpacks.
I put them on my backpack.
I was like, why?
And you realize that dogs can also fall, so-
That's true.
That is true.
Positive notes.
I like the positive notes right now.
The positive notes and-
So you're a very outdoorsy type of person.
(05:37):
I do enjoy the outdoors for sure.
Yeah.
Yup.
Like yoga.
I saw that you had a TikTok where you were biking around the city.
I do love the Capital Bike Shares.
Yeah.
They're a lot of fun and they're pretty cheap.
Oh no, they're great.
There's just so many hills in DC.
It depends on whatever hill you hit.
Depending on your route, biking is great.
I know.
Sometimes I pick the longer route so I don't have to go up a hill.
(05:59):
Probably not this weather.
Oh my gosh.
No, but I would like to go back a little bit and ask you a little bit more.
How did you get to Washington?
That's a great question because Delaware so far, unless you were on a train with Biden-
It's so funny you say that because his son, rest in peace to him, he was very involved
in Delaware politics.
(06:21):
Most of the people I know met his son before he passed away.
Really?
He was really, really involved and really nice guy, salt of the earth kind of guy.
I grew up in Delaware.
There's nothing in Delaware.
You get two types of people in Delaware, which I think is a lot of places.
You have people who grew up there and they're like, I love it here, I'm never leaving.
They buy a house down the street from their parents and they're down the street from
(06:41):
their cousins and they're down the street from their uncles and everybody is there.
Then on the flip side, you have people who are like, oh my God, I'm never coming back
here.
I'm leaving, I'm never looking back.
This is not great.
You build a great community, but you just move out.
Nobody stays in Delaware.
Everybody knows everybody.
I think that's hard.
It is hard.
There's no secrets.
I know, but some people like that.
Some people, they're like, oh, it's a community.
(07:02):
I hate anybody being in my business.
I'm pretty much an open book.
Which is a great reason to come on our podcast.
Let me tell you all my secrets, but on my terms.
But anyway, so growing up in Delaware, not a whole lot of options.
I went to the University of Delaware, which is North, like Northern Delaware, and that's
where I met my husband.
And we graduated from the University of Delaware and I was a criminal justice major and philosophy,
(07:28):
randomly enough.
I wanted to be a police officer.
Why philosophy?
I just like philosophy.
I like pontificating.
I've heard of attorneys who take philosophy.
Yeah.
Apparently philosophy, like almost all of the majors go to law school and like they
do really well.
I'm like, wow, that's interesting.
Have you ever quoted Socrates in a brief or something?
I haven't gone that far.
I have actually seen briefs with quotes.
(07:48):
They'll introduce it with like a quote from Socrates.
I like that.
I actually really like that.
But yeah, so I was going to be a police officer.
I was really interested in criminal justice reform and I was kind of thinking, you know,
I'll go be a police officer and I'll change the system from the inside out.
And then the more I learned about the system, I was like, oh, this is not a like boots on
the ground type of change.
(08:09):
Like this whole thing needs to be thrown out and redone.
Which then I'm thinking.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
But was there like a single event that made you realize like I want to be a cop.
I want to change the system.
Or was it the stories from your mother from her public defender days?
Honestly, I don't know.
It was probably a mix.
(08:29):
My dad taught in the HBCU and it was really important to him, like growing up, that I
understand basically like the plight of black people in this country, the history, how it
shaped everything.
And I'm like five years old and he's showing me pictures of like transatlantic slave trade
ships.
I'm like, what is this?
But you know, learning that early and like being able to appreciate it.
(08:51):
And then him, of course, teaching at an HBCU, which is like rich in history.
I think that was a piece of why I wanted to be involved with criminal justice reform.
And when I was in college was when we were really seeing like this resurgence of black
people being killed on video, like unarmed, running away in some cases, being shot in
the back, being shot for no reason.
(09:13):
I think that was also part of what kind of lit a fire under me.
I won't say I'm not the type of person.
Some people are like, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer from when I was a kid.
I didn't.
I just knew I wanted to make a change somehow.
So I was going to be a police officer.
Then I started learning that I think there would be a better way to go about the reform
piece.
So I decided to apply for law schools.
(09:34):
I wasn't even going to apply to go to Howard, but my mom went to Howard.
So she was like, oh, you should just apply and see.
That's great.
Yeah.
So we went there.
It was so funny.
We were like touring the campus and she's like, that was there when I was here.
That was there.
Okay, mom, please.
Do you want to come here with me?
It was really giving like, maybe I should come back.
I was like, oh gosh.
So checked out the campus.
(09:56):
I never lived in a city ever before.
I wouldn't call where I went to college a city.
It's like a college town.
Right.
But you're in Delaware and suddenly you're in DC, which is a big change.
I mean, it wasn't New York, but DC is still a big change.
There's a lot going on here.
Absolutely.
My first time riding the metro train, I was so scared because it was going side to side
on the red line.
And I'm sitting there looking around like, is anybody else freaking the fuck out right
(10:19):
now?
Just me.
And they were standing, standing with their bikes and stuff.
I was just terrified sitting there like clutching my backpack, but it's fine.
I got used to it.
I love DC a lot.
So yeah, that's how I got here.
That's a really great story.
So you met your husband a long time ago in college and were you in like a class together
(10:41):
or you ended up doing a criminal justice major together as well?
No, no, he was an English major.
He's been into like Shakespeare and like really all of that.
The good literature and things of that nature, which I mean, I like to read, but I'm not
like, oh, we're for art though.
So we actually met, we went to the same high school, but we didn't run in the same circles.
(11:05):
He was like prom king and I was like listening to like Green Day.
I'm like purple hair.
Is that where you compromise and you watch musicals together?
Is that like sort of in the middle?
We do like a good musical.
I'll say that.
Okay.
But you had purple hair.
Oh yeah.
I had like all the colors in my hair.
That's so crazy.
(11:27):
Your friends had purple hair or something.
I try to dye my hair once blonde, but blonde like it was like the sun.
Oh my God.
It was so bad.
I'm going to say your hair is so dark.
I feel like it would be hard to get it blonde.
No, it's so hard.
It looks healthy and beautiful now.
Thank you.
I fought very hard to get it healthy again.
(11:50):
But how did you do?
I mean, I love your hair by the way.
What happened with all the hair dying?
I don't know.
I think I just kind of grew out of it.
I was very like emo kid when I was in high school.
I was just very like, I'm so cool.
Like I need to have all the colors in my hair and do all the things.
But yeah, we ran in different circles.
I think there needs to be more lawyers who have their hair dyed.
(12:12):
I agree with you.
You see that a lot of the Barbie suits, you've got different styles.
I don't know if they allow that in the courtroom.
I don't know if Peking County allows for the pink suit.
Oh my God.
They do?
Yeah.
That's great.
Doing law, being a law student, she still practices in DC.
Her name is Brandi Harden.
She's like legendary criminal defense attorney.
(12:33):
She always taught us as trial ad students, you only wear navy and you only wear black.
She didn't let the men wear colorful socks.
She didn't let them wear colorful tie.
You had to have a panty hose on.
And her whole thing was you are going to learn how to make an argument and make your argument
the most interesting thing about what you're doing in the courtroom.
(12:54):
That's very important.
Mind you, she's coming to our practices in bright emerald green suits.
And I was like, I want to wear what you wear.
But she was like, no, while you're learning to do this.
First you have to master what you say.
I appreciated that.
But even now, DC is full of lawyers.
You walk down the street, there's every different type of lawyer.
If you're ever in a room, chances are there's at least five lawyers.
(13:15):
I think it's like 80% lawyers.
They're not all practicing or past the bar, but they are lawyers.
Yeah, a lot of lawyers and a lot of gray, like a lot of gray and navy and things like
that.
I like only wear bright suits.
Like yesterday I had my fuchsia suit on.
And what color nails do you have here?
I have a nice little coral color today.
(13:37):
Those are very nice.
It's like somewhat muted.
I had like the bright blue last month.
So okay, I have to say that I love that.
Thank you.
I live in Colombia, so color for us is really important.
For me, it's so weird to be wearing black and gray and navy.
I love those colors as well, but I mean, I love red and pink and yellow.
(13:58):
That was hard for me when I get to DC because I mean, it's a whole lot of different culture.
In Colombia, you wear a lot of colors.
In here, that's so weird.
But I love that you have this mentality because...
I wish our office room, we could actually paint a different color.
Every office is white or something.
I want a whole bunch of different colors.
(14:20):
Make it really...
At least a mural or two.
That's inspiring.
I think color is inspiring.
I think a lot of...
A mural sounds great.
That would be fun.
I don't know who would paint it, but that would be really great.
We'd have to outsource that for sure.
But yeah, I think one of the things that I really like as an attorney is having fun with
it.
There are plenty of attorneys that don't like their jobs, don't like what they do or how
(14:43):
they do it, which is any profession.
It's not to dig on attorneys.
But the gray suits, the Navy suits, I have a gray suit and I have a Navy suit.
When the situation calls for it, that's what I'll be wearing.
I may always err on the side of being more conservative when going into a courthouse
for the first time.
If I were to go to a courthouse in a more rural area, I'd be wearing a black suit.
(15:04):
I'd be wearing a gray suit.
But in places that I know, DC, New York, any color suit, as long as it's a suit, it's
not skin tight or ripped or anything like that.
In my opinion, that's professional.
I've seen attorneys, I won't mention the type of attorneys, but I've seen some attorneys
come to court and they have t-shirts on.
(15:24):
No.
Really?
It was notorious in Brooklyn.
Doesn't a judge just throw you out?
No, they don't.
They should.
I mean, but it depends.
It depends on the type of court, the level of the court, every judge is different.
But there, notoriously, we would go to court every day.
We were in court.
People would come in and they would wear a trench coat or a coat that had a collar on
(15:46):
it.
And they would be clearly wearing that over a t-shirt, but they would keep the coat on.
I was like, that's not a suit.
That's not professional at all.
That doesn't count.
So I've seen much worse than a pink suit.
I've seen just highly casual, so inappropriate.
So you work though in, I would say, I assume, like in a conservative area of law.
(16:06):
But going back through your history, because our audience won't know exactly where you're
coming from, you were a judicial intern in DC, also worked in the congressional area
for Delaware, a law clerk, did some work with Howard in a criminal justice clinic.
You have a lot of fascinating background in criminal justice.
(16:29):
And then you work in Brooklyn, in King's County, as an assistant district attorney.
So you've seen a lot of shit.
I've seen a lot of shit.
You've seen a lot.
And then you suddenly make the switch to estate planning and elder law.
I'm fascinated about that switch.
But also, what was the reason for criminal justice?
(16:50):
I'm assuming it's a lot, but maybe it's a lot that you don't want to do for the rest
of your life?
Or is it, there was something enticing about elder law?
I will say, from the time I was an undergrad, all the way through law school, exiting law
school, getting my first job, I always had the blinders on of criminal justice.
I always wanted to do criminal law.
I always wanted to be reform minded.
(17:12):
And my big thing is like, I feel like if you're going to get a degree, if you're going to
be qualified to work in a certain area, you should be working towards making the world
a better place.
And social justice is a big way to do that.
So I was always like, oh, I'm in it.
Push for social justice through criminal justice.
And I did have someone come talk to one of our classes when I was in law school.
(17:37):
And she was an estate planning attorney.
And she was telling us how one of the biggest issues with black and brown communities in
the United States is this lack of wealth.
Individual people and families sometimes become rich or sometimes work hard and make a good
life for themselves.
But it's actually like the transfer and building of wealth itself that doesn't really happen
in black and brown communities.
(17:58):
And she was talking about estate planning as a means for social justice.
So she had done work for people like the Waltons, like the biggest families in the country.
So she was really well versed in the state.
The Walmart family.
Yeah.
Wow.
So she worked for like hard hitters, like the richest people potentially in the world.
She would help them do estate planning.
(18:18):
And she was like, oh, no, this transfer of wealth would like really make a difference
in a lot of impoverished communities if we understood certain things with finance and
we understood how to pass that on and build the wealth.
But I'm confused because being from a family that I didn't get any kind of wealth transferred
to me, we grew up really poor.
What difference does it make if an attorney is involved?
(18:41):
I mean, if my parents had, let's say, ten thousand dollars to give to me under the mattress
and they give it to me, that's how I got my wealth.
Is it because the laws in the country make it difficult to just say here is the keys
to my house?
Here's my car.
Here's my bank account.
If I die, it's yours.
(19:02):
Shouldn't it just be that easy?
It should be that easy, but it's not.
It's not.
So what gets in the way?
Is it just because a bank comes after you?
I think people get in their own way a lot.
I think people get in their own way a lot.
So I think just generally speaking, it's not just from an attorney standpoint.
It's also from being financially literate.
So if your parents saved up ten thousand dollars and once they got to that point, stopped saving,
(19:27):
kept it in a safe place and knew we want to save this ten thousand dollars for you, let's
say they achieved that when you were five and when you were eighteen they gave it to
you.
If you were five and they had that ten thousand dollars and they put it in a high yield savings
account, an investment account, any number of different types of accounts that could
grow, you wouldn't be receiving ten thousand when you were eighteen.
You'd be receiving fifty thousand or whatever.
(19:48):
Do you see what I'm saying?
So there's a way to grow money.
I feel like I should have made more money now.
I know.
I sit here and think.
I feel like I should write down these tips.
Maybe we should be writing some of this down.
I always, whenever we've been thinking about buying a house and looking at what people
bought houses for in 1994, they're like a hundred thousand dollars and now they're
(20:10):
like five hundred thousand easily.
I should have bought a house when I was five.
What was I doing?
It's a waste of opportunity.
My mind gets polluted with Hollywood where always in this scene, some rich person on
your deathbed, you just like you just write on a piece of paper and write.
I give my entire fortune to so and so and then sign and like, well, isn't that what
(20:31):
I'm supposed to be doing?
Just make sure that I live long enough to write it down.
Doesn't it need to be notarized or witnessed or something like that?
What makes a will valid?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, for wills in general, like it is state to state.
It's specific depending on where you are.
And you're in Maryland.
I'm in Maryland and I'm in D.C.
You definitely need witnesses in Maryland.
(20:52):
You do not need a notary.
I don't believe you need one in D.C. either, but you just need the two witnesses for sure.
That's a big thing.
Yep.
But so back to your question about why does it actually matter if I have an attorney?
I would say the attorneys are more so like the protection of the wealth.
So like you built up all this, maybe you work with someone who's like a financial advisor
and they help you grow your 10,000 to 50,000 for your child.
(21:16):
What if you have two children, you leave a total of 100,000 to both of them, and then
one of the children starts arguing about who should get what?
I'm going to use the example of Aretha Franklin.
Her kids weren't necessarily arguing with each other, but she left one will handwritten
and then they found another will in one of her pieces of furniture, like one of her cabinets.
(21:37):
So then they had to figure out if that was real and when it was written.
And then they found another will in her mattress or in her couch cushion, excuse me.
Oh my God.
This woman's writing wills.
She was ready for everything.
But that was her like point of view.
As long as I write it down.
What if it had been music lyrics and the song was the will?
That would be a hit.
I'm telling you that right now.
(21:58):
But yeah, so she ultimately like her estate has spent so much money litigating what was
the final will and how can we prove it?
Can we prove it was her handwriting?
Can we prove that it was actually written when it was dated?
In some cases you're paying like handwriting experts.
You're paying attorneys to litigate with the other attorneys.
You're draining a bunch of money from the estate of what you would get because you're
(22:19):
arguing about it.
But what you would get would have to be worth all of that trouble.
I mean for $10,000 you're not going to do that.
No, you'd be shocked.
You're just going to duke it out.
Really?
I've seen people argue over $200.
Really?
Because it's not usually, sometimes it is about the money, like to be frank.
But it's like I want to get Grandmother's ring and it's just that important to that
person.
(22:40):
Sometimes it's even more insidious.
It's two siblings who never really got along but they didn't hate each other but one sibling
always kind of under the surface thought like, Mom likes her so much better.
I wish I was the favorite child.
And then when Mom leaves the will they're like, No, I disagree about this and this.
I mean you can just sit in the probate court and just listen to the most ridiculous arguments
(23:03):
that people make but a lot of it is really emotional.
You really don't believe certain things or they're hurt.
Yeah.
You know.
Probate court is a court that deals with this stuff.
Yep.
Sometimes it's called orphan court.
They're basically the one who judges who gets the baby or they split the baby.
(23:23):
Maybe.
I don't know.
But so they decide when the kids can't decide.
So ideally you're following the terms of a will.
But if there is no will or if the will is invalid for some reason, there are already
statutes in every state and DC which they say if there's no will here's who gets what.
It depends if you have a spouse that you leave behind or if your kids are minors.
(23:44):
If you have a dependent maybe an adult child with disabilities who is your dependent.
Depending on what your family structure looks like that's who will get what if you leave
things behind just in your name.
Well you're an expert in this field.
It sounds like you really know what you're talking about.
And the only reason I wanted to go down this road is because wearing pink at a court where
(24:05):
the children are fighting and I'm assuming that there's a lot of seniors in this practice
that are your most of your clients might be seniors.
People who are trying to write something down to pass it down to their family estate planning.
I don't know what the difference between estate planning and elder might be is that like when
they're getting admitted to a nursing home and who has the I guess the living will or
(24:30):
who gets to pull the plug.
Yeah.
I mean like by definition is any legal type of system or problem or matter that an elderly
person has.
So a lot of times it is things like nursing homes Medicaid sometimes it's like elder fraud.
So elder law like generally speaking a lot of people think of it like things like guardianship
(24:51):
and things of that nature but it really like can span so many different types of issues
that could come up and affect an elderly person.
But to your question on why I switched it up.
I had this lady who like came to our law school and was telling us this is a good means of
social justice helping people pass on their wealth and build intergenerational wealth
and generational wealth and that's a huge way to help level the playing field.
(25:15):
And I never really thought about I never thought about writing a will as having that type of
effect.
Especially like a systematic effect like that.
Looking back on the history like there was a time where only white men could be landowners
and only landowners could vote.
So when you're thinking about some of the importance to leaving assets behind only white
men could inherit assets.
(25:36):
They can only inherit if I can't inherit land and I don't I can't get the right to vote.
So it has some history there.
And then in some cases like you did have some women especially like back in historical times
who were like inheriting a house or something like that.
But it was usually only if there was no man in the family like it wasn't just the wealth
wouldn't just leave the family but it would go to a woman with the goal that it would
(25:56):
eventually like get back to a man.
Is that still an issue today?
Not as much.
No there used to be certain laws like you can only leave things to your blood descendant
and then if you had like a black parent.
Your father would be who determined what race you were or excuse me your mother would be.
So if you were a raped slave you had a mixed child because the mother was a slave you were
(26:21):
not considered a rightful heir to that person.
And on a lot of the books there were laws only like white men can have land and can
only own land and what parentage actually makes you like things like the one drop rule.
And then you have de jure and de facto racism which is also playing a part which is like
actually codified laws that said only certain races can do certain things or have certain
(26:45):
rights and then you had some things that were just kind of the way of the world at the time
like de facto was more so the community determining what is what.
And anyway let me not digress into that.
I decided to make the switch because I learned that from her and I did a couple free like
clinics.
I guess you could say as a law student neighborhood legal services is an excellent organization
(27:08):
in DC that provides help to indigent folks who can't afford attorneys.
They would do wills for veterans so you would just go dedicate your time make sure that
a veteran could come in get a will written properly witness and yeah keep it pushing
from there.
It's really nice to give back in that way and that kind of got my wheels spinning on
it but I was still like no I want to do criminal law.
(27:29):
So then I went up to New York I did criminal law.
My husband did not want to stay in New York long term so he came back to Maryland and
I was like he loves Maryland.
He loves Delaware if we could live in Delaware he'd want to live in Delaware but I'm the
second.
Is he more of an introvert?
I can't be there.
I don't think he is sometimes he says he is but he's one of those people whose whole family
(27:51):
is in Delaware.
His mom is there his uncle his aunt his cousins his grandma.
My family is from Pittsburgh so I don't have the full tribe how other people have in Delaware
so I just don't feel like there's anything for me there.
My mom lives there but otherwise that's literally my only blood family that lives there so I'm
not interested but I decided when we moved back there would be no time like then to switch
(28:13):
things up before just like fully railroading my life in the criminal law space.
So I got a job randomly it was posted got a job at an estate planning law firm that
was really well known in the kind of like Annapolis area.
Great place to learn how to do elder law and estate planning.
Are you talking about Sinclair?
Yep yep so that was a really good place to learn.
(28:36):
Ultimately it wasn't super aligned with like my social justice minded piece of it so I
decided I wanted to try something else.
Try family law immediately no.
I cannot do family law it is too much for me.
That's a whole other book.
You know anyone in family law?
It's a lot.
Every attorney that I met that I was like I'm gonna try a family law firm they're all
(28:58):
like good luck girl like you're not gonna like this.
So I.
That's not when the children are fighting it's like when everyone is fighting against
each other.
I think some people are confused because they're like well how can you do criminal law but
not family law and I'm like well there's not like a pettiness involved in criminal law
the same way that it is in family law.
Like you want to talk about people wouldn't argue about this.
(29:19):
People argue about everything in family law.
People will argue just to argue because there's again like in the same way that sometimes
in probate and just in the estate planning world sometimes people argue it's almost always
emotionally based.
It's not logical.
Sometimes it's like if you actually set them down and you're like but why do you care?
They couldn't actually give you an answer they just know they care about a certain thing.
(29:42):
Family law is like that times 10 because there's usually a relationship that has broken down
like a romantic relationship.
You get people who are like I don't want their new girlfriend or boyfriend around my kids
and I'm just like but you don't get to determine that.
Like you have a say and it's your child and you should have a say but you just don't like
you don't have a reason not to like them.
Like you ask them but why do you not want them around your kid.
(30:03):
I don't you know I don't I don't like this or this or this.
I'm like but that's not I can't tell a judge you don't like the way that they drive their
car.
Like you need something like tangible to say this person shouldn't be around my child.
But a lot of times it's just hurt feelings and I understand that.
I just can't be involved.
So once you realize this is not for me what was the next step?
(30:25):
Was that where you just decided I'm just gonna do my own thing?
Yep absolutely.
Wow was that scary?
It was and it's still kind of scary.
Yeah like everything depends on you and your clients and who you meet and everything depends
on you.
Yep.
How long have you been doing your own thing?
Since January it's very new.
Wow that's great.
Thanks.
Are you liking it?
I do like it.
(30:46):
I really do.
Like today I was running all around but like everything I was doing I knew was my representation
of my brand and it was for my clients and like I think it's a little different.
I will say the biggest transition for me in doing any private practice like any law firm
work was the payment.
Like the money piece to it because when you work for the government you just get your
paycheck.
(31:06):
It doesn't matter if you mess something up.
Also when you're like a district attorney you don't have a client per se.
Your client is the people.
It's the state you know.
You don't have to sit back and answer to somebody.
You have to answer to victims on victim crimes but even then I don't take direction from
the victims of a crime.
If they tell you like I'll never forget I had like stabbings.
(31:29):
I had like people shooting each other pulling guns on people.
Very violent very scary things and one of the most passionate victims I had was just
a neighbor dispute and they wanted their neighbor arrested for just yelling at them and like
put in jail.
I'm not going to do that.
I know you're upset but I'm not going to ask for jail time because they yelled at you.
(31:51):
That's ridiculous.
I don't have that petty power.
No and I'm not going to.
And I get it you're upset but like me putting this person in jail is not going to fix your
situation you know what I mean.
So anyway I just say that to say like family law has a lot of pettiness that I don't find
in other areas personally.
Then again I haven't done all the different areas of law.
(32:13):
I'm sure there are petty there's pettiness in like any area but family law was just too
much for me.
But I was admiring your LinkedIn and saw that you do a lot of conferences for different
people.
Not only elder communities nursing homes.
Like how do you find clients because I also saw that you speak at high schools and I thought
that was great too.
You know get them early before they think before they accumulate wealth.
(32:38):
Yeah I just like to do things that are like giving back.
You know what I mean.
You have a lot of heart.
I think I think that's the nicest part about you is that you have a lot of heart.
Being where you are growing up and realizing that there's so much to do.
You're out there trying to make real social change and spreading the message and that's
(33:00):
really great.
So I really hope that people reach out to you and get the help that they need because
it sounds like this is an area of law where you want your attorney to care.
Yeah for sure.
I also like I really admire that you have a lot of heart too.
But I want to ask how do you keep that lot of heart.
(33:22):
Oh that's great.
I mean after seeing the shit.
The big thing.
Yeah.
You told us you have seen because it's hard sometimes that light might go might turn off
you know.
But you clearly still have it.
So how do you keep it.
That's not easy.
Like I think a lot of it is doing things that like re light my fire because there are times
(33:45):
it's gotten very dim.
There were times where I was an assistant district attorney where I was like I can't
help people in this situation.
I don't feel like I did a good job.
I just felt down.
I you know imposter syndrome also like creeps in.
And then you go to a speaking event with an attorney who's like no I actually was able
to like I don't know solve an entire systematic issue or even helping one family.
(34:08):
Like having someone who was a complaining witness that was just like I just want to
thank you that you really helped me.
That is like one of those things that just relights your fire right away.
In the like estate planning world going into court and seeing people argue about what I
think is silly being able to sit with my clients and plan ahead of time to make sure that the
(34:29):
opportunity for argument is minimized is really empowering for me because I know that I'm
helping them achieve that final goal.
Nobody wants their family arguing when they're gone.
So that is definitely I would say finding the inspiration through my own clients and
like my clients the peace of mind that they get when they actually sign their will or
their trust or their power of attorney knowing my kids aren't going to argue.
(34:52):
They know what I want like if I'm ever in an end stage of my life they know what I want.
They're not going to feel guilt that they pulled the plug on me because I asked them
to.
So things like that like being able to know I'm empowering people and helping people is
the big thing for me.
And then just being inspired through other people's stories for sure.
And do you do maybe something to keep your energy this clean because I'm a whole lot
(35:14):
of vibes by the way.
I saw that you like to travel.
Is that is that something you like to do a lot to keep your energy of like you were in
Greece at some point.
Oh yeah.
That's when I studied Socrates.
I went where he was teaching and it was so like oh my god.
The best place is philosophy.
Maybe it is.
(35:36):
I think in my personal life I've like really minimized bad friendships and bad relationships.
I think that was this is going to sound so silly but like turning 30 I was like you know
what I don't have time to be drained by people like I just really don't.
If it's in the process of helping a client that's just what it is.
(35:56):
That's work.
But when it comes to like my personal life I protect my peace.
My husband and I have a really strong relationship so we don't have to worry about foolish things
that I've worried about in the past with partners.
I have my dog.
He's like my baby.
So sometimes I just have a bad day and I just like sit next to him on the couch.
What kind of dog do you have?
I sit with him.
I have like I have a Labradoodle.
He just looks like a poodle though.
(36:18):
He looks like he's so funny.
He's just he's oodle.
He's oodle poodle.
I miss New York a lot sometimes because a lot of people will say like oh New York is
such a lonely city like people are so unfriendly.
That was not my experience at all and Brooklyn is its own vibe and every neighborhood is
its own vibe.
But we had the best neighbors.
(36:40):
We lived in an area known as Flatbush which is like a very heavily Caribbean population
and we just had the funniest neighbors.
We had one lady who would always like she'd be across the street down the block and she'd
be like there he is the show dog.
Look at him.
He's such a show dog.
And like people just like announcing like look at that poodle over there like just screaming.
(37:02):
It was always just fun to take him on a walk because I would get to know my neighbors and
but people just love him and they truly think he's like a purebred poodle.
You know shows and they're like is that is he does he compete.
I'm like no he's not your bread.
So are you the kind of dog mom that just takes him to special grooming and get his nails
done and he has a groomer.
(37:23):
Yeah.
She's the best.
She has a purebred poodle and she dyes it like fun colors.
I've seen those.
Yeah.
She's a dog esthetician which I didn't know was even a thing.
It was honestly like luck of the draw too because when we lived when I was in law school
I lived in Silver Spring which is like right north of D.C. and I was able to just drive
(37:44):
down the road like barely into D.C. and that's she has a home like grooming.
So she was his groomer since he was a baby.
Then we moved to Brooklyn then we moved back and we moved to Prince George's County when
we came back to this area and we were like we should look at full up and see if she's
still doing this and she is and she was like 10 minutes from our new house.
That's amazing.
(38:04):
10 minutes from Silver Spring down to Prince George's County.
I was like this it's feels like a sign.
And she remembered him right away.
She was like look at him he looks so good and you know she's she has been through her
own fair share of things.
She started her business with her husband and she lost her husband and I again so much
(38:24):
of what estate planning is is like there is nothing that we know in life.
We're sitting here chit chatting doing our podcasts like and that's awesome.
A freaking like bomb could go off in the middle of the street and you know like that's true
you know what I mean.
You never know and especially in light of covid and all the other things that have happened
in the world in the past few years.
(38:45):
No day is promised but it feels so real when I work with people who I did your trust last
year and you passed away this year.
That must be really hard to see clients just that you're losing a lot of time.
I mean my favorite one of my favorite clients passed away after we did her estate plan and
she was just but she was the best.
(39:05):
Like I she she was like a little old lady.
I can't give you a lot of details about her but she was very quiet.
You may think she doesn't have the capacity to create a legal document for herself but
if you ask everybody else to leave the room which is what you should do as an estate planner
if you have work like a test or something right to see if they're competent you want
to gauge that.
Because if you don't have competency I can't I can't create a binding legal contract if
(39:29):
you don't understand what that means.
So that's part of what you have to do if you have any worries you should clear the room
have it just be you and that person and just sit down and talk to them and see if they're
like actually picking up on what's happening.
She was so funny I had her kids leave the room her adult kids leave the room and I was
like so like what do you want.
She's like I told you what I want.
(39:49):
I want this this and this like she was like spicy.
I was like okay you are good.
She just wakes up.
She but like another part of like what can be hard is like a lot of times adult children
become their parents advocate.
Like you go through life you're a child and your parent is always looking out for you
and then when that switches and you have to look out for your parent you're protective
(40:11):
you're worried about them your heart is in the right place but as the attorney I need
your place to be in the hallway because I need to talk to your parent.
You need to do what you do.
And if they don't have capacity then the children are more involved because it's like we have
to go through guardianship or whatever the alternative is.
You also have to make sure that they're not forcing the parent to say something.
(40:33):
Exactly and that's a huge thing.
Which I imagine is with the state planning.
It's like yeah you promised me all the rings mom.
Yeah exactly and you'll go to like probate sometimes and part of why people are fighting
is they're like I didn't think that my parent had a will and the other child is like I took
them to write this will.
And sometimes like the details start coming out and it's like oh this is problematic.
(40:55):
Like you can't write a will for somebody else and I've seen kids write wills for their parents
and then have them sign them and of course they're insufficient.
Like they're legally not sufficient.
It's a legal document.
You can't just and like it's tough too because I don't want to bash any company in a public
forum but I was in Staples the other day and they have like form wills.
(41:16):
And I was just like huh and they have form power of attorney documents and like for example
like just a little template that you just fill out and then.
For example in both DC and Maryland there are statutory power of attorneys.
So if you have just some random form power of attorney and you need to use it for your
parent you go to Chase in DC or in Maryland they can say I'm not accepting that.
(41:38):
You have to have the DC or Maryland version.
Like and it's a title is.
Specific language for specific situations or where they live.
Yes and I probably should know more about this before I say this in a public manner.
I don't understand how places like Staples can sell legal document templates and it's
not considered a practicing law.
(42:00):
Like I actually that's a great question.
I actually truly don't know.
And that's probably going to be a bigger problem as we get into AI when different companies
offer these kinds of services.
Are they practicing law or not.
Right.
Right.
Maybe because they're a company they're selling something.
That's a great point.
I don't know because some of like the companies like LegalZoom for example if you're an attorney
(42:21):
they have attorneys working for them.
Like when you talk to somebody at LegalZoom it's an attorney.
Like I have friends who have their own law firms and also on the side will do like LegalZoom
or do you know all these different companies now offer these things.
But like as long as it's an attorney telling you this that's fine.
But if it's just and maybe an attorney drafted I know I would never do it because I feel
(42:42):
like the first person assuming I lose my law license.
But just seeing that I was like oh this is kind of problematic.
One sure fits all type of situation when it comes to wills.
Because some people might have property in different jurisdictions.
You might have different family members your family not all families are the same either.
So you have to split it up differently.
Yep.
(43:03):
You may have trust.
Some people may cut out.
Some people you intentionally want to cut out.
Yeah it's very.
Not that bitch in the corner.
Right.
I hated her.
And I love that.
But yeah it's definitely very individualized.
So having like a form that you feel like not the best thing in my opinion.
(43:23):
Because the worst thing that could happen is let's say I have a hundred thousand dollars
to give to my kids and I filled out a form and the court would then reject it and they're
stuck going to probate court.
Is that what.
Can you enforce that.
So there are a couple of things.
Like the requirements of a will are just the requirements of a will.
(43:44):
Like if you wrote your will on a piece of like construction paper in crayon as long
as you have your two witnesses and you have capacity to write your will that's a will.
It doesn't matter really the form.
That's a challenge.
Yeah.
I think I want to do that now.
Right.
And there are like there's something known as a holographic will.
(44:04):
So like what you were mentioning before like watching TV and seeing people like on their
deathbed like let me sign this like last last thought or last will or whatever.
There is something known as a holographic will which is always in movies and TV which
is where like people are in on sinking on the Titanic and they just write on a napkin
give everything to my love or whatever you know the drama.
(44:26):
That is not enforceable in many states.
Some states have that some states you can write your own will.
You don't need a witness.
You don't need two witnesses.
Because they're doing it under duress or some situation.
It's like just at least like if I pulled up the Maryland Code it's like a handwritten
will without the formalities that are required by the law.
And Maryland you can do that in a very specific situation.
(44:49):
If you're a member of the armed forces if you're abroad if it's like I don't remember
the code off the top of my head because I've never ever had a person that met that criteria.
Really what it sounds like is the law is so complex when it comes to this different jurisdictions
different areas different situations that one size fits all form would not work.
And if it if he tried it you're basically testing the waters.
(45:12):
You're testing the water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I mean I was in court the other day and unfortunately a gentleman his daughter
took him to write his will.
I don't know if she took him somewhere just printed off a form or whatever but they didn't
do it right.
And then the wife who is not the mother of the daughter is challenging and she's like
well I want to be the executor of the essay I don't want her to go.
(45:34):
And she didn't even know there was a will because the daughter was the person that took
the dad to go do it and it was before he met new wife.
So then there was like the dynamics of like that's not my mom and you know and it was
like a whole thing.
And by the way these proceedings are public.
So like anybody could have sat in that courtroom and known all of these people's business so
they can take notes and then come back which also like a lot of people are like that's
(45:58):
mortifying.
Like not only would I not want to leave an estate plan that's incorrect I would hate
for my two most loved people my wife and my daughter to be fighting publicly in court
about my situation my situation with my ex-wife my new wife my daughter.
It was a whole thing and at the end of the day like if they choose to argue this out
(46:19):
they're going to waste a bunch of the money.
I think I want to put a clause in my will that says that if my kids fight about this
that they get nothing.
They have that.
It's called a no contest clause.
Oh really?
Yeah.
So I think that's a good way to do it.
So I'm going to leave the documents for that exact reason.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow you're a genius.
Peace of mind.
People want to know that there's not going to be silly arguments over stuff.
I'm going to advise my family to do that.
(46:39):
Yeah.
Now I'm assuming you're not the kind of person that just law is just all your life.
It sounds like you do like to do a lot of other things but on your spare time are you
the kind that likes to watch like these documentaries like with was Brittany like I want to know
if you were just watching you're like wait a second she should have called you.
Brittany you should have called me girl.
(47:00):
No I really well I will say this I can't do the true crime.
I can't do true crime.
I really can't do like.
Is it stressful or you just like you want to give them advice.
Sometimes it's stressful but sometimes it's also like I do this all day.
Like I need a break.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I bet.
But like what was the movie Knives Out that just came out.
Yeah.
That was like really entertaining and funny.
I like that and it's like the will was read and I don't even remember all the context
(47:24):
of the movie but.
So dramatic.
Yeah it was so dramatic.
I mean we don't have formal will readings.
That's not a thing.
I mean maybe if you have like a high powered like family they're doing that but like no
we don't do that.
That's not right.
I've told every ex I've ever had had at a breakup I said I want you at my funeral to
be holding the black umbrella in the background.
(47:45):
In the background.
Right.
One single tissue.
Even if it's not raining you must do this.
This is my last will.
Oh my god.
And if you don't do it I will haunt you.
I will haunt you.
I will haunt you.
Oh gosh yeah.
There's a lot of ins and outs to this area of law that I never thought about until I
started doing it.
And I was like oh this is interesting.
(48:06):
What kind of shows do you watch then to de-stress to like just get your mind off.
I'm watching a lot of cartoons with my kids so.
Bluey I'm guessing.
Bluey yes.
Yeah he's huge.
I love him.
People love Bluey.
It's so nice.
My cousin watches.
She has an Australian Shepherd.
Oh my god he does?
Yeah he's so cute.
Those things are active.
Those are some active dogs.
Oh they are.
What do you do with him to keep him like.
(48:27):
Actually he's really well trained.
I train him myself.
So he's really chill.
He knows when to be active and when not to.
He understands.
He's pretty smart actually.
They're very very smart.
They are.
They're like one of the smartest dog breeds.
Can dogs get whales?
No.
But there are pet truss.
I'm assuming you've seen it all.
Like somebody has asked you this at some point.
(48:49):
I will say the pet truss.
Or can a cat or dog get de-estate really?
There's like a famous famous case of this woman in New York.
New York City.
She had a cat.
Her kids didn't visit her.
She didn't have friends.
She didn't have family.
But she had this cat that she loved.
She left every penny that she had to this cat.
(49:09):
So the way that you would set that up.
I've seen this in TV shows.
I thought it was de-est.
No.
It's based on that lady.
She's iconic for leaving her cat everything.
And her kids were like let's kill this freaking cat.
Which I assume you're not allowed to do?
Yeah.
No.
I can't do that.
I can't do that.
But it's very interesting too because this is ushering in this idea of pets are considered
(49:31):
property.
So even in some people's wills it says I leave my cat or my dog to my sister or my mom or
whatever.
A lot of people don't think about that.
And if you were to die and you have for example a very high energy dog breed and the only
person that you've left behind who's like your loved one is your elderly parent, they're
probably not going to want a high energy dog.
(49:51):
And a lot of them end up at shelters.
If you've gone to a shelter and read the little placard, often times it's like their owner
passed away.
Like it breaks my heart when they're also old dogs.
Oh my god.
But let me not get too sad because the state planning doesn't have to be sad.
But pet trusts are basically set up where you're setting aside this like pot.
When you cross the line.
This is too much.
(50:12):
Well this is when they're actually your child.
Some of us.
Yeah.
I get it.
I get it.
But you would leave this money and you would entrust a certain person to manage the money
for the benefit of the pet.
So I would see more of it like at practicing in Maryland.
A lot of people who have horses and stuff, they need to be specific about where they're
going to go because otherwise it's like well what the F am I going to do with a horse?
(50:34):
Like what would I do if I inherited a horse?
I live in an apartment.
An apartment, right.
I can't just park it at five.
Yeah.
So for the people that don't want to do that.
And sometimes like especially like some areas of Maryland are huge equestrian areas.
Like they have racing horses.
Yeah.
Like in Poolsville I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially down south.
But they have a lot more livestock.
And then people who have farms like you will probably want to be specific about what happens
(50:58):
to your farm animals and equipment and things.
There's other laws and tax issues with some of that stuff too.
But anyway, I digress.
It's not one size fits all for sure.
But a lot of people like to keep their pets involved to an extent.
Oh, and by the way, that cat that inherited all that money is like was it's not alive
anymore was like living its best life.
Like, no, but it had like, I want to say over a million dollars.
(51:20):
It inherited a whole bunch of money though.
Like it.
It doesn't.
It just knows its treats taste really good.
It's like going to like a nice bed and like doing anything it wants literally.
I hope that the food quality went up the moment the cat inherited.
I don't know.
I desperately want to look this up.
Yeah.
This sounds like a great story.
(51:42):
But yeah, it was quite some time ago.
Well, I learned a lot from you.
I mean, thank you for coming on.
Like I've learned a lot.
One of the reasons I reached out to you initially was like, oh, you've got to do my work here.
But I live in Virginia, so I'm fortunate I couldn't use you.
I know.
I know.
Oh man, that bites.
But it really just brings up a fear in me.
Like what happens if like tomorrow I get run over a bus?
(52:04):
Like I haven't even my wife all my passwords to accounts and things.
And even though she might be designated a beneficiary, she might have to go searching
for a lot of this stuff.
My kids might have questions, property, all this stuff.
It's just you assume that you'll get to it when you're older or there'll be something.
(52:27):
Some moment that you realize, OK, I'm going to finally sit down and do all this stuff.
But we really never actually get the time to do that.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's on a lot of people's to do list for many years.
Yeah, for sure.
People come to you.
Are they in a state of I'm ready to do this or are they usually just in a panic state
like somebody either just passed away or is just been diagnosed with stage four cancer?
(52:51):
Is that kind of it all?
You've seen it all.
Some people are like my mom and dad did this and now they're like pressuring me to do it.
I need to do it.
And I'm like, yeah, you do need to do it.
However you get to it is great.
But a lot of the most motivated folks are people who have just lost somebody and gone
through a not so fun situation or they are people who have a diagnosis or yeah.
So you kind of run the gamut.
(53:12):
It's just when are people motivated enough to do it to move it up the to do list to like
number one or number two.
Thinking about assumptions to a lot of people are like, well, if I get sick, my spouse can
just handle everything for me because they're my spouse.
Right.
You'd be amazed at the amount of spouses that call me and they're like, I'm at Chase and
they won't let me access my husband's bank account who is alive and just sick.
(53:33):
And they won't just let me or you can't call him because he maybe has dementia.
If your name is not on a bank account, banks are not going to be like, oh yeah, come in
and spend the money.
It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
To go to.
So sometimes people like think ahead and put authorized users.
So that's like putting a bandaid over a certain situation for a while.
But it's a lot of stuff where we're like assuming like, I'm sure it'll be fine.
(53:54):
And then it is not fine.
And sometimes it is like sometimes people have very simple plans and it works for them.
Like again, it's not one size fits all.
Not everybody needs a trust.
Not everybody needs a pet trust.
By the way, Carl Lagerfield left his cat almost two million dollars.
Oh God.
Chopet.
Two million dollars.
Chopet.
One point five million dollars by the late designer.
(54:17):
So yeah, it's like.
For two million dollars, I will dress up in the cat suit.
Pretend to be his cat.
Well, that's the thing, right?
A lot of people are like, well, now I want to take care of the cat.
But there was a woman in Shanghai who also said her kids never visited her.
So she was going to leave 20 million won to her pet.
Yeah, it's like it's it's a thing.
(54:38):
It's like truly a thing.
There's a one lady who is like iconic about it.
But like even if you I'm just like scrolling Google deceased New York woman leaves three
hundred thousand dollars to her two cats, a wealthy woman from the Bronx, New York.
It's just cat.
OK, that was funny.
Cats inherit enough to fund nine lives was one of the headlines.
I'll give them that.
(54:59):
That's right.
Yeah.
So yeah, you can do like anything you want.
And some people are like, I love my cat more than my kids who don't visit me.
So.
Well, it's been great having you on the podcast.
And if someone actually is interested in protecting themselves from giving all their money to their
cat, how would they reach you?
It's Johnson dash legal dot CEO.
(55:20):
Yes, that's my website.
And they can also just give me a call as well.
My main law firm's phone number is nine to nine three to two four zero zero six.
OK, well, we're sure to put that on the podcast information.
But thank you so much for coming in.
It was a lot of fun.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much.
I've I've definitely learned a lot.
And I wish you know what?
(55:40):
I mean, I'll move back to Maryland just so I can.
I try to make these conversations less morbid because it's not fun to talk about dying or
being sick.
Yeah, it is something we need to talk about.
It's a lot less fun if we have to deal with probate or have no paperwork.
So I think you make dying easier.
Oh, my God.
(56:01):
Sounds like superheroes.
You are a superhero.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thanks for having me, guys.
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