October 1, 2024 • 49 mins
Kevin Brzozowski, Director of Business Development at Level Legal, specializes in eDiscovery services, from strategy consulting to forensic technology and complex databases, he promotes services crucial to legal practices such as antitrust and competition, audits and internal investigations, regulatory compliance, and high-stakes litigation.
He shares his career journey, insights into effective networking, best practices for business development, and the importance of clear communication between vendors and law firms. Join us for a deep dive into the world of eDiscovery, business development, and the strategies that drive success.
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Guest Info:
Kevin Brzozowski, CEDS at Level Legal
Director of Business Development at Level Legal (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-brzozowski-54094875/)
Level Legal: https://levellegal.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We are back on the show.
(00:29):
And today I have a very special guest.
And hopefully I don't butcher your name.
I actually went on Google to get a better idea of how to say it.
So here we go.
It's Kevin.
Nailed that part.
All right.
And the R is silent in your last name.
Is that correct?
(00:50):
So you're making it hard on yourself because you're going with the Polish.
You're going with the Polish.
Oh, see, that was a problem.
I can't even do it properly.
I was friends with a woman who was English, but of Polish descent, spoke Polish fluently
and she could nail it.
It sounded so foreign to me.
I just say Brzezowski.
That's the English size.
Brzezowski.
Okay.
Brzezowski is a good thing I'm not introducing.
(01:11):
Yeah.
Hey, that's fine.
Actually, I'll give you a quick PSA on Slavic last names.
The ski at the end operates like a D in Spanish.
It indicates.
So what precedes the ski is the area you're from.
Okay.
So Brzezow is a province in Poland.
Okay.
And I think what makes you especially more special is the fact that you are our first
(01:33):
non-lawyer guest.
One of the things we talk about is that how many lawyers there are in DC, but you are
not a lawyer.
You gain all this knowledge because you are on speaking events.
You're on panels.
You're talking to attorneys.
You're learning on the job from e-discovery and all these things.
So to introduce you a little bit better, I think what you do now is you work at a level
(01:56):
legal.
And you have a really great slogan, right?
It's where you make legal human, making legal human.
And that's one of the things actually that really attracts you when you're at a legal
tech event or something like that.
You're like, wait, what does that mean?
Making legal human.
So we'll go into that.
But what do you do for someone who may have no idea there is a legal tech sector yet?
(02:21):
How do you end up getting to know so much about this industry?
You work with attorneys, but what do you help them do?
Sure.
I should probably caveat that it's almost like an antitrust.
If you define a market narrowly enough, you'll find some kind of anticompetitive behavior
there.
I think it's fair to say that I know a good bit on a very discrete set of topics within
(02:43):
law.
And there's an ocean of things that I don't know and probably have never heard of.
So with that out of the way, it's really just experience.
This is entering my 12th year now in the space, in the e-discovery space, and was a litigation
paralegal in the IP discipline for a number of years prior to that.
And so just-
You were like a clerk for four years or something like that, right?
(03:05):
Yeah, they called it, I was like a sub paralegal actually.
Okay.
I'm probably doing a disservice to paralegals by calling what I did paralegal work.
But yeah, it was like your standard sort of post undergrad.
There was a small army.
They actually called them classes of litigation clerks.
We did just general lit support.
But interestingly, we got to go to trial.
And that was the most engaging aspect of the work then.
(03:27):
Firstly, because you could make time and a half over time for several weeks.
But also sitting in the courtroom and seeing how all of the work that you'd been able to
participate in up to that point comes to fruition.
And all of the documents that you've coded and the redactions that you've made and the
deposition designations, like to see them projected on the screen and the lawyers articulating
(03:49):
the argument that those informed was super cool.
And also the connections you make, of course, with the case team, because the folks that
you work with in your office might only be a few of the trial team that's assembled.
So you get to meet partners from other offices, the client, of course, any co counsel.
So that was really cool too.
For anyone who might not know what antitrust is, I think outside of the US, they call it
(04:13):
competition law.
And in other parts, they call it anti monopoly law.
So that's what antitrust is.
And of those three words for it, I think whoever calls it competition, I assume that's Europe.
Yeah.
If we're getting into semantics, I think that's probably right.
Because anti monopoly law and by extension, antitrust seems a little narrow when you consider
(04:34):
that antitrust as it's practiced in the US, of course, includes conduct issues and items
outside of simply monopoly.
Competitive behavior is analyzed by the agencies and competition law seems to be a better umbrella
term.
You're also our first Washingtonian.
There's so many people that come here from other parts or other countries.
(04:55):
It's actually really hard to meet someone from Washington in Washington.
It's crazy, right?
Yeah, you went to Virginia Tech and then you went you got a master's in George Mason.
That's right.
Yeah.
Actually, I was an army brat.
And so we lived all over, moved every few years, which was great, I think, for the fact
that my job, more or less these days, is to build new relationships, it equipped me pretty
(05:18):
well to do that because I had to do it every three years, essentially.
So yeah, settled for the bulk of my young adult life in southeastern Virginia on the
Chesapeake.
And when you grow up there, your options when you graduate are essentially to go south to
like Charlotte, up to Richmond.
But most people come to DC.
And I had family members already working here.
(05:38):
So I had an air mattress to crash on.
And that's how I found myself here and apart from a three year stint overseas, I've been
working here my whole adult life.
And that stint overseas, I guess you were working a bit in Dubai.
That's right.
Yeah, in the UAE.
So yeah, my prior organization, where I was for the better part of a decade, had an opening.
(05:59):
And you know, I was young, single, didn't own a home and thought, hey, now's the time.
That was cool.
Yeah.
So what was your favorite part of that experience?
That's it's pretty interesting that you changed from the US to the UAE.
Sure.
How was that like?
Yeah, I mean, the favorite part of the experience, the just the people that you have the opportunity
to meet because you mentioned it's difficult to meet a Washingtonian in DC.
(06:22):
It's probably as rare, if not more rare to meet somebody who's actually from Dubai, born
and raised.
You're meeting folks from all over the world.
Yeah.
The UAE actual Emirati citizens are distinctly in the minority.
And you have a whole tapestry of folks from across everywhere, really, in the legal sector,
you're primarily dealing with folks in the UK, at least in my personal experience.
(06:43):
But you have folks from like the Indian subcontinent and the surrounding areas.
And so it's cool.
People with all different backgrounds, all different life experiences come together and
exist.
It seems like whatever baggage might exist where they're from was left behind.
And everybody just gets on with the business there.
It's a wheeler dealer environment for sure.
Wow.
So and one of the things we were talking about a little bit offline is how much you're part
(07:07):
of the job is you're like a professional networker.
You are, I guess, maybe learning as an army brat, you know, how to pack, how to keep it
light and you are just going from one event to the other event, meeting people, all sorts
of things.
So,
Oh, Kelby, I kind of blush at that description coming from you.
You might be one of the best networkers I've met.
In fact, hey, if you ever want to get into the discovery space, we should talk.
(07:28):
Oh, man.
One time I thought about it because it's great.
You're meeting people all the time.
But funny enough, like I am, I think, a closeted introvert and I come out of the closet for
special moments, special occasions.
But after these events, I'm just dreaming.
I'm the same way, honestly.
It didn't used to.
I don't know.
Have you found that it's like become that?
(07:50):
It has.
And then I think that's what then makes me appreciate a good networking event is then
you spend less time trying to convince somebody of either your product or what you do, what
it is, and then you're actually asking people like what they do, maybe try to feed off different
energies because there are moments where I'm maybe at a legal tech event or meeting somebody
and I can just tell that they don't either don't believe in their product or they're
(08:13):
just like just cakewalking.
They don't really know what they're talking about.
And sometimes in the vendor experience, at least on this side, I don't know if you see
it on your side, but on this side, we know when someone is trying to offer a service
and they don't really believe in their product.
You can feel that energy.
(08:34):
I don't know if you see that sometimes when you're dealing with lawyers and if they don't
like really know what to do, but maybe their ego gets in the way and they don't want to
share the fact that, Hey, I don't know what to do, but you can normally see it in the
glossy look in the eye.
But yeah, no, that would say, I think you hit the nail on the head.
(08:54):
That was the steepest part of the learning curve.
Excuse me.
For me, having no business background before I got into what I do now is, you know, for
better or worse, my only like experience with salespeople had been like at a car dealership,
figuring out that meetings in which you're speaking maybe 20% of the time are the best
meetings when you're having essentially just receiving a download of people's experiences
(09:18):
and what's important to them.
It's it's just mutually beneficial.
You discover whether your product or services are a good fit and and how they'd be a good
fit.
People buy different things.
A quick anecdote, actually, I was I think about this stuff all the time now.
I'm a little bit obsessive with kind of the discipline of sales and I was outside of my
(09:39):
house last weekend and this kid rocks up and he's with a pest control service.
And so I'm like, all right, here we go.
Came on very professionally and confidently and I was like, all right, okay, let's hear
what he has to say.
But then just started going into features and benefits ad nauseam.
After I told him I had a service I was happy with.
And so he walked away and I'm like, why didn't I give that?
What was it about that?
(09:59):
That he appeared professional.
He was confident in his approach.
He knew his product.
But then I realized, had he said two days prior, I noticed I have these wasps on the
side of my yard.
Yeah, God, those things are really annoying because when I mow the lawn, they're buzzing
all around.
If by some miracle he had said, hey, we specifically treat these ground wasps that we know to be
a problem in this neighborhood.
(10:21):
That would have been a conversation.
Yeah.
It's just so difficult to isolate things like that when you're not listening and when you're
just trying to talk about the features and benefits of your products.
So in your profession, it's really important to get to know people.
And that's something that you wouldn't have, let's say, learned at any school that you
would have gone to.
Or did you?
I mean, there was ever a class on like, how to read people.
(10:43):
Not really.
Yeah, I didn't study the right things.
It's outside of an MBA, which I don't even know if that does the trick.
But okay, this could be the most ignorant thing ever.
Maybe it exists.
But I feel like given how many people get into business development and how important
it's going to be, especially with technology products to differentiate, you'd think there
would be a more formal academic endeavor aligned to that.
(11:05):
But no, it's mostly just anecdotal experience.
This is, I think, a great moment for me to turn to my co-host.
In law school, did you ever have a class?
Not even in Colombia nor here.
I had classes on how to network.
But it's very important.
Although I did notice that people that are from the United States, you guys have that
(11:29):
culture of networking.
Back home, it's more like not a culture of networking, but a culture of socializing.
Not enough.
Not in a business way, which is pretty odd.
I do have some questions for you, Kevin.
(11:49):
If you're into business development and you're new in this field, how would you get there?
Which advice would you give someone that wants to get into business development?
Because nowadays for law firms, it's not just about that you're a good lawyer, a good professional
in law that wants to work with them, but you need to add those other things that might
make you look prominent.
(12:10):
And business development is a great area.
Yeah, no, it's a good question.
I think it's a two-parted question if I'm hearing you.
How to get into it and then basically how to develop your skill set once you're in it.
The first part of the question, how to get into it.
And look, I'm no expert, but my take is to just start doing it.
Don't overthink it, which I know is tough for attorneys sometimes.
I mean, that's the whole point of law school.
(12:33):
You're thinking differently, thinking theory.
You just got to dive in and just start saying yes to things.
Not only when people ask you, but saying yes to things in your own head.
If you see something online, oh, okay, there's this reception for white collar, antitrust,
whatever bar section I belong to.
Just commit to yourself to go.
And if it doesn't go well, then what does that mean really?
(12:55):
Are people going to turn point at you, laugh and heckle you and stone you out of the room?
No, probably not.
Any data point that you collect by going to these things is ultimately useful even if
you can't immediately see how.
So everybody you talk to, if you talk to an IP lawyer, that informs our conversation with
the next IP lawyer.
You just have more empathy for their day to day.
(13:19):
And then how to get good at it is, so this is not like a proprietary FOD or anything,
but it's collect data points as often as you can, whether that's through reading, blogs,
conversations, whatever.
Essentially the more material and content through whatever media you expose yourself
to, the more data points you'll have to port onto other people's data points and find commonalities.
(13:42):
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
No, but I think you're being incredibly modest because you right now are hosting your own
sort of platform, What's Brewing and Antitrust.
And I was lucky enough to attend one of your sessions and I learned so much from just your
guests and what they were talking about.
And so you're right, you absorb that kind of information.
But at the same time, you're not just like anybody else trying to present a product.
(14:07):
You are now collaborating with major firms like Covington, like Jones Day, Fresh Fields,
Whiten Case.
These are major firms that also have an interest.
They want to be on your platform and get to be able to speak.
And that I think is a huge like gold star when it comes to bringing people together,
but also sharing that knowledge.
So I think that's an amazing thing that you do.
(14:29):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
And hey man, you can join them all.
You don't have to limit yourself to one.
And I think just a side point.
I think anyone who doesn't know this stuff, they should just get in there and just listen
to these people because sometimes you can just start to absorb this information.
But when I'm in the legal world and it's crazy hours, the work can be demanding and you're
(14:54):
a single guy and you're meeting all sorts of people.
It can be really hard to date, to get to know someone or have that person even trust that
you're going to be there because I remember when I went through it, it was very difficult
for the person I was dating to be like, wait, why do you have to travel at the drop of a
hat or you're meeting all these people, you're getting all these phone numbers, you've got
(15:17):
business cards all over the place.
You smell like booze all the time.
I don't know if, because you were talking about like you were single in Dubai, but now
you're married.
Was that, did you find it difficult as well?
Like just because of the environment?
Not really.
It's a bit more enabling to anybody in that situation, I would say wait till you have
a four year old and a three week old.
(15:39):
You probably have more time than you may think.
But in a way, not just Dubai, I was single for the first five years of my career doing
this.
And yeah, the hours at least initially for the first several years were crazy, probably
on par with what an associate at a big law firm might do because of the nature of the
work.
(16:00):
You're getting client requests throughout the day, you're developing your agenda for
networking events and the like.
And then of course those networking events by and large tend to be after hours.
And there is travel, of course.
And yeah, the net effect is that you're pretty busy.
I was lucky to meet my wife in grad school and she also has a demanding job with the
(16:20):
federal government with a lot of travel and she's very career oriented.
And so I suppose it wasn't by design, but just natural selection, you end up with somebody
who's like similarly situated, which makes things easy in terms of like expectations
and whatnot.
I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for.
You think that you're working very late hours and with a high stress environment, just do
(16:41):
it with a toddler.
It's so different.
You're being woken up at three in the morning when you didn't want to, you might be having
to change because someone spit up on you.
It's very different, I think, than being spit up at a happy hour.
Yeah, it probably, yeah, not quite as entertaining actually.
I just mentioned we have a three week old now and our first night at home.
(17:02):
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Yeah, our first night at home with him a couple of weeks ago, I'm dealing with him.
It's two o'clock in the morning.
He had a combination of liquids coming from different places that I had to clean up.
And for the first time in like at least six months, my four year old decides that's the
moment that she's also going to have an accident.
So like I've got multiple baby monitors going off, it's 2 a.m. and I'm thinking like, will
(17:26):
life ever be normal again?
Because how many do you have, Kelby?
Well, I have two.
One is nine and the other six.
So you're almost out of it.
Yes, I'm almost out.
Well, you know, they no longer sport liquids on you just in the corner of the bathroom.
That seems like a trainable.
Yeah.
I'm sorry, Marie, I know that you had a whole bunch of questions.
(17:47):
I didn't know if I interrupted you with your train of thought.
That's part of the conversation.
I like where this is heading.
Well, can I say one more thing on your earlier point that I think is really cool?
You mentioned in Colombia, the culture of networking is more a culture of socializing
and socializing implies to me, at least to a certain extent, like some enjoyment and
(18:08):
a removal of some of the pressure that's like incumbent in the word networking for whatever
reason.
So that seems like almost an ideal setting.
And it forces you to, if you're just socializing and not networking, you're probably not going
hard on positioning, whatever it is, your service, your expertise, your product, and
you're instead just getting to know people, which I think is frankly networking at its
best.
(18:29):
That's awesome.
Because every time I go out and my wife thinks I'm about to have a lot of fun, but she has
no idea.
Like when I come home, I'm like drained because we're talking about legal topics and stuff.
And your social battery just goes down.
It does because you're not socializing for yourself.
You're really socializing either your promoting a firm, your product, you're trying to get
somebody to be on a webinar or something like that, or maybe just you might be the only
(18:52):
person representing your company, your firm at an event.
So you need to be there.
It can be really important.
You might be absorbing brand new information at an event as well.
So it's not always a ton of fun.
Hopefully.
Yeah.
But on that point, Kevin, how do you recharge your social battery after this networking
(19:14):
events that take so much?
Oh man, back in the day, I would have said a handful of ice cold IPAs.
You're more a beer guy than a wine guy.
Yeah.
Well, you can't tell.
But no, more recently, I really like the morning.
So I don't think it's a recharge.
It's more of a pre-charge.
I get up pretty early by necessity for reasons we've discussed, but ordinarily, if there's
(19:39):
an immediate thing to be done with the kids, I can get that done very quickly and they
go back to sleep for a bit.
And my wife will stay upstairs with them, hopefully sleeping in.
And so I have an hour to 90 minutes to myself early in the morning, sun's coming up.
That first, I drink a ton of coffee.
So the first three cups of coffee is just is great.
I'll get some reading done or get a head start on if it's a heavy day, the day's work.
(20:00):
But that, at least for me, really helps as like a reset and a focusing exercise.
Oh yeah.
That first cup of coffee in the morning for me is like heaven.
It's like I don't even need breakfast.
I mean, you should obviously eat breakfast, but if I had to choose, it would be coffee.
Oh, totally.
Yeah, I agree.
So I'm sure you get this a lot, but just going back in your background, you did international
(20:24):
global studies and you've done international policy and commerce and things like that.
Was your goal this what you're doing now?
Was that working in legal, working in business development?
Legal a little bit.
Yeah.
I think a lot of folks who practicing law always seemed to me to be like the apex of
(20:45):
a liberal arts education, which I was pursuing.
But then, hey, I took the LSAT.
I was probably a bit ambitious with the schools I applied to and I only applied to three.
And the one that I got into was the most expensive by a wide margin.
And it was 2008 when the ROI on a very pricey law degree from the school you were least
excited about was questionable.
(21:06):
And by now it's like tripled.
Yeah, I'm sure it has.
So yeah, after chatting it through with my parents and whatnot, decided to hold off.
And then I thought about getting out of the legal space entirely.
My sister and one of my older brothers was in the federal government and that work seemed
exciting at least their work in the federal government did with all the things that interested
me international exposure, travel and the like.
(21:28):
So is that why you started working at Homeland Security?
Yeah, that's where my sister was.
So nepotism in the highest order, I got like a menial job in the office that she was in,
but quickly realized that I don't know if it was the role or whatever.
But that when you're coming from the legal industry, which is so dynamic and cool, and
you get the opportunity to do a lot of fun and frankly, kind of fancy things being like
(21:52):
a GS seven.
And I was I was probably too old for that anyway.
So yeah, when I thought about reentering the legal space, it was like the question became,
okay, I don't think law school or being an attorney is on the table at least right now.
But what else can I do that that wouldn't forfeit the at that point, three, four years
(22:13):
of experience working in a law firm that I had.
And actually, this is probably a good point for associates or anybody who may not think
that their current role is like their forever role.
Because yeah, I really struggled.
I was looking around like thinking, okay, what can I you know, so that's why policy
seemed attractive to me, because there's some intersection with law there.
(22:35):
A lot of law firms will have a policy arm or almost like a lobbying arm.
And I never thought about e discovery or outsource litigation support, even though I was engaging
with vendors in my paralegal or litigation clerk role all the time.
And they were always really cool.
And it's that seemed like they were moving, living this kind of fast paced lifestyle.
And the business element was interesting, but it just didn't occur to me.
(22:58):
And so I suppose the lesson there for folks would be to consider all of the components
of your ecosystem and be curious about them and ask people about their role because you
never know something that you might discount or not not even really consider could be the
answer or at least a step towards a path that might ultimately suit you.
(23:19):
But that's a great point going back to what do they teach in law school.
I don't think there is a class on e discovery and data and compliance issues, internal investigations,
all that stuff.
I think that's going to change in the near term.
I really hope we talk about that all the time because it's incumbent in the model rules
on attorneys to be proficient in the technology that's broadly used in their field.
(23:40):
And especially at the pace that things are evolving and changing in the legal tech space,
there's going to have to be some kind of baseline awareness.
But until then, and this isn't a plug necessarily just for level.
I can do it until then they come to you.
Well, a lot of a lot of companies like mine, they'll offer training recognizing that that
training really gap.
Yeah.
So level legal has developed a pretty successful e discovery program targeted associates that
(24:04):
we offer as a marketing strategy.
So it's free of charge.
Yeah, we don't do it for everybody.
Ordinarily, it's folks who we work with a lot and we can really understand what the
training limitations are and what would be useful to help folks develop.
But we'll.
Yeah, yeah, it's been well received.
It sounds like a win win situation to me because the associate doesn't want to admit that they
don't know enough.
(24:24):
And you know, and you want to be able to provide business and get to know the people you're
going to work with.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
So the junior associates especially will come in and they'll get a crash course.
And then of course, we make those connections and hopefully they've derived some value
from the training and we come to mind when they ultimately are asked to go to market
and source some bids.
I think that if everyone's going to work with you, they should work with you like early
(24:49):
on.
I think that's a great point.
If you don't get your advice on how a project should be done, I have a project this way.
What do you recommend?
I think that's if anything, where attorneys should put their ego aside and just say, hey,
I don't know enough about this.
What can you recommend?
Is that do you get calls like that these days now, especially with AI and all this other
stuff that's going on?
(25:09):
Yeah, for sure.
Actually, it's funny when you say that the first person that comes to mind is my colleague
who I'll give a shout out to here.
His name is Daniel Bonner and he is the epitome of what you're talking about.
He gets calls from very senior partners contemplating super serious engagements, very large transactions,
(25:29):
especially the antitrust base.
And they're genuinely interested in his input.
They're not asking him level legal's capabilities are.
They're asking him the person what he thinks about a situation, the scope of which might
exceed what level legal would ultimately support.
And so that's been a great role model on a smaller scale.
Of course, there are instances like that.
But I think what you're getting at is that people say, I read a lot about sales, like
(25:55):
the academics of sales.
And several years ago, when I first got into it back like 2014, 2015, there was this book,
The Challenger Sale, which indicated that relationships are dead and that you have to
go with, you essentially have to make it a mathematical proposition to say that here's
why you should work with me because it makes dollars and cents or whatever the case may
be.
(26:15):
That's an oversimplification of the book.
I disagree.
Of course, you read these things and you have to take all of it with a grain of salt.
But relationships are efficiency if you think about it.
It's not just, oh, Kelby's a nice guy and I like working with him because we're friendly.
It makes logical sense.
There's efficiencies there.
He understands how I work.
I can count on him to discuss an invoice disparity offline to discover who's in the right or
(26:39):
wrong and maybe have it amended before others are brought in.
So it just is a best practice, I think, to select a handful of people that you have relationships
with and barring some service delivery issue, which would prevent you from continuing to
work with them, to continue to rely on them because of all of the kind of read in time
(27:00):
that they have in working with you and understanding your team and how you work.
Working in this industry, I was always afraid of making mistakes.
What you do is very helpful to some people.
You're probably helping them out of a jam.
They probably have the capacity, the resource to do something like e-discovery in-house,
(27:21):
but they don't have that same expertise or experience because I assume that you've gone
through a lot of different scenarios and learned from mistakes because this wasn't what you
initially wanted to do.
This is something that you fell into but also now have gained a lot of experience from.
Yeah, a lot included there.
(27:42):
But to begin with, I'd like to start with the copping to mistakes.
Of course they happen and I understand the bulk of your listeners and your guests or
associates.
There's a great book that came out, I think, last year called Big Law Confidential.
Have you heard of that one?
I haven't, no.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
It's a giant book, so you could almost treat it like a textbook, but it's broken up into
different sections and it is written anonymously by a Rainmaker partner who we understand to
(28:06):
be in an AmLaw, I think 10 or 20 practice in New York City.
Basically describes how he or she rose through the ranks from junior associates.
It actually starts like how to do your interviews for summer associate positions and then all
the way through accepting an offer and rising to partner.
But there's an entire section devoted exactly to mistakes are made and how to deal with
(28:27):
them.
The short answer is admit it early and obviously retain what you did wrong or figure out what
you did wrong so that it just isn't done again.
No harm the first time, usually, unless you do something really bad, I think.
It's the second time that will get you.
So yeah, certainly no ego when it comes to making mistakes.
Now moving on towards asking or receiving outside advice, even absent having explicitly
(28:54):
asked for it, like when you're engaging with a third party service provider.
Yeah, on the third party service provider side, I think there's some nuance to it because
you certainly, I work with clients all the time, especially me, that know a lot more
than I do.
And so you're in this awkward position of providing advice and counsel to folks who
may have double your number of years experience operating in this space, even in a need discovery.
(29:19):
But like I said, at the top of our conversation, if you widow down deep enough, everybody is
an expert in something.
And you have to look for opportunities where somebody might be sort of encroaching into
your zone of expertise.
And that's an opportunity to say proactively like, hey, well, have you considered or watch
out for or something along those lines.
And the beauty of that is that as you grow in your career, especially if you're doing
(29:42):
all the things that we talked about, saying yes to things, reading things, meeting with
people, listening to people, that zone of expertise really grows.
And then a few years or in certain circumstances, a decade or two go by and then you're like
Daniel Bonner who I mentioned where you're offering or being asked for advice by well
known names in a certain field.
If someone was interested in legal tech, how do they really start?
(30:06):
I mean, things are changing, especially with AI, things are changing, hardware changes
all the time as well.
And you recently got your certification as eDiscovery.
How does that make you better?
Is that like you're learning more about lingo or the most current technology?
(30:26):
Probably not the most current technology because I have like an academic course.
It can only be updated every so often, but probably more important than being on the
cutting edge of tech is best practice.
There are some buyers out there who are, especially in the legal tech world at the conference
that you've been to, obviously, you have a lot of people looking for what's new, what's
the latest like kind of beta versions of things.
But our customers are generally interested in defensible best practice.
(30:50):
How do we proceed with this discovery exercise in a manner that will not be challenged and
that will produce the results that we expect?
And the SEDS program does a great job of equipping you to offer counsel on those best practices.
I developed my career by being the middle person, the middle man between the tech and
(31:13):
the legal because a lot of times if I found they don't communicate, like the tech is like
security.
That's seen in office space.
Right.
You know what I'm talking about with the redundancy interviews?
Yes.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's right.
To your, what I understand to be your initial question, which is, what would you say to
maybe an associate who's looking for a different career?
(31:33):
I wouldn't let the tech piece actually factor in too much.
Look at what's behind the tech.
What's the actual activity that you'd be doing?
At my last organization, there was, I think he was a senior associate, like a Magic Circle
law firm is a British guy.
And if he ever hears this, he'll know exactly, he'll know I'm talking about him, but he's
awesome.
He and I became really good friends, but he transitioned from a senior associate in complex
(31:55):
commercial litigation to a consultative role at a new discovery vendor and built a great
career because obviously some familiarity from the user standpoint with the technology,
but more so with how folks interact with not only the tech, but the service generally and
what good basically looks like.
Okay, great.
I've seen it all.
(32:16):
I've been a customer of a few different providers and here's what's good.
Here's what didn't go so well.
And so let's build something based on that experience.
And I guess a quick plug for Level Legal.
Level Legal is interesting because it actually grew from a litigation law firm 15 years ago
down in the Eastern District of Texas.
And so we have throughout our C-suite, throughout our project management teams, exactly that.
(32:41):
Folks who used to be litigating attorneys, not only just drawn from different firms,
but as a cohesive firm are now a new discovery provider.
And then our first stop was in managed review, which is not to get too techy here, but towards
the end of the EDRM.
So we worked backwards.
So we started off offering contract attorneys to do a discovery review and then worked our
(33:04):
way upstream into providing hosted document review platforms and digital forensics.
But the reason that's relevant is that when we were only doing manager view, we were of
course basically customers to all of these third party hosted platforms because somebody
would host the data with whomever on relativity and we would work into it.
So just like my buddy who I mentioned, we saw the good, bad and the ugly and designed
(33:26):
to service based on that experience.
So it's a cool way to do it.
And coming around to my initial point, the experience that an associate would bring to
the table, working with their clients and with their colleagues could certainly inform
and improve a third party vendors offering.
But you're making this sound easy.
(33:46):
Like what makes the job hard or stressful?
Like everything.
Because you made it just sound like, okay, well, it's very systematic.
But if I ever get like a lawsuit and I look at opposing counsel and brief, I immediately
know you guys are in trouble.
There's things that are missing, things that are poorly written here and that.
(34:07):
Like I can already tell that and I already know where direction I should go.
If you get a new case or new client, do you sort of have that sense at this point?
Oh wow, we need to do a lot of work here.
Oh yeah.
It depends.
It depends what they're coming to you for.
Yeah.
It's just really, really tough and it doesn't even align to like the size or sophistication
(34:27):
of the law firm.
We deal with smaller practices that you might not have heard of outside of the M Law 200
that are like super squared away because this is what they do.
And conversely, we've dealt with some folks, some groups inside of M Law practices where
frankly, we've been able to add some helpful expertise, but it's ordinarily, it all our
(34:49):
entire industry is built on data and so you can normally start with how people approach
the concept of data.
Like how well do they understand what they have and what needs to be done with it?
Is there an ESI agreement in place?
Do they know what's in the ESI agreement?
Have they discussed with the other side?
Of course, how things are going to be given and received.
So that's what makes it hard is the fact that those questions are unanswered.
(35:12):
When they're unanswered, it's both a good and bad thing.
In the immediate term, it can lead to some challenges getting everything loaded in a
discovery review platform properly for them because it might've been received in a suboptimal
format.
But the opportunity there is that it provides some scope for you to add expertise and for
you to help.
And when you do that, when you materially improve the way a practice group or an attorney
(35:36):
team operates, that is so much more valuable than just satisfactorily delivering a contracted
service because folks think of you as somebody who helped provide a real solution.
Is it expensive for small law firms to do this transition into using tech and these
kind of platforms?
eDiscovery is a process, only large relative to the size of the data in scope and what
(36:00):
you need to do with it.
So if you have a thumb drive with 5,000 documents on it, sure, you could have an associate who
bills $500 to $700 an hour click through them one by one, or you could plug it into one
of our systems.
It's less than a gigabyte.
It would probably cost you $10 to do.
And for the cost of lunch, you can have removed all of the duplicate files.
You could set date filters, run your keywords over it and bang, boom, there you go.
(36:22):
And that can be the extent of it.
Yes, obviously there are eDiscovery exercises out there that I would like to see more of
that can run into seven figures, but there are many that there's a reason that eDiscovery
vendors have a minimum fee and that's to protect your downside because sometimes you could
be doing an eDiscovery exercise for like 30 bucks.
I would say don't be, especially to international attorneys, don't be put off by perceived cost.
(36:46):
The cost is relative to the need.
I find that a lot, especially internationally.
I mean, the rest of the world isn't as prone to eDiscovery and collecting hard drives and
all this data and roomfuls of documents the way the US is.
So I think it's really hard to convince attorneys from other countries that they should do this
(37:06):
or that this is a solution.
I find white collar work to be interesting for that reason because if the US government
is asking you for documents, they don't really care where you are or what the eDiscovery
familiarity is.
So yeah, you're generally or internal investigations even you've got to get after the evidence
that would ultimately inform your representations to the government.
(37:29):
So that's essentially what you do.
Do you make it easier for me to find what I need to look for, what I need to find by
putting keywords or filtering out stuff that maybe is not necessary?
Maybe somebody has like sent memes to each other or something like that?
Well, yeah, or it could be obviously a litigation strategy.
The other side, a David and Goliath set up large corporation versus a smaller claimant
(37:51):
or something.
Yeah, data dump.
And so we can help to level the playing field.
That's not something that Hollywood invented.
That is an actual thing.
That's an actual thing.
If I request, hey, I would like a memo on this date and here's a million documents,
have fun and find it.
Yeah.
Our experience has been we've supported a number of mass tort type transactions, class
actions, and some of these companies that are frequently subject to class action litigation,
(38:14):
they will have like data dumps like boxed and ready to go.
So it's okay.
Here's an inbound claim.
Boom, here you go.
Here's like whatever a terabyte of data, you know, good luck sifting through it.
So yeah, smart and efficient application of your discovery technology can help to level
the playing field.
That's what it's all about.
You're quickly and efficiently working through large troves of data to get at what's germane
(38:35):
to your case.
But if the government were to pass some law that says that that is no longer allowed,
do you suddenly lose business or you still have a lot to do?
I don't even know if that's a long shot because I think that would require an update to the
FRCP.
Yeah.
Then no, I don't think we would lose business because data volumes are growing daily and
(38:58):
they have been for quite some time, for 15, 20 years.
And so even if folks are doing more front end work to limit what they disclose to the
other side, you know, there are going to be many circumstances in which that's still quite
voluminous and would require technology and people to help work through at a lower billable
rate than, and it's not just the lower billable rate than an associate.
(39:19):
It's because certainly we're by no means accusing law firms of not having their clients.
Like an associate who's like, let's say at a small firm charging a hundred hours an hour,
they shouldn't be off put by this.
They should say, oh, well, no, you're going to help me beyond.
Yeah.
If we can do it for 50 and it's not just the cost reduction to the end client too, it's
the case teams will generally, you can't bill unlimited hours.
(39:42):
I mean, unless it's like a bet the company litigation, oftentimes you cannot bill unlimited
hours as I'm sure it can be to a specific matter.
And so when you look at what is the best application of your associate leverage on a case, which
ultimately informs the profitability to the firm, you want them focused on the merits.
You want them billing time on what they are trained to do.
(40:03):
And so if we can simultaneously get through this data more cost efficiently, but also
in a manner that frees up associate bandwidth to do the work practice at the top of their
license, then that's just a universal benefit.
Right.
So what's next for this legal tech field?
What do you think it's missing?
And are still people like reluctant to it?
(40:26):
How do you perceive that?
Well, it might be self-selecting.
I don't come across a ton of reluctance anymore, but again, it's probably just because of who
I market to.
You know, it used to be that people were reluctant about using the cloud and, you know, there
are like anti-cloud policies here back and forth.
And now we were seeing the same thing with AI, but everyone's on the cloud.
(40:48):
I was wondering if we were going to get through a podcast without mentioning AI.
Well, I think the cloud's a good example because yeah, initially there was some healthy skepticism
when a company is saying, hey, give us all your data.
We got it.
We'll store it for you.
But there's been huge benefits to that.
Not the least of which is good data hygiene.
(41:10):
Companies that host in the cloud typically have a better handle on information governments.
And then of course that has downstream benefits when you move data through the discovery process.
And AI might be the same.
Initially some skepticism, both from users and obviously recently from the courts, but
it's in its infancy still.
I read an article that the rate of development is slower than anticipated.
(41:31):
I think people thought it was going to be exponential because AI can help train itself.
But that's all on the technology side.
My sense is that the gap is between technology and product.
Two different things.
As long as AI is not in any of our marketing events or networking events, it's not learning.
It's learning for itself.
How do you use chat GPT?
I do it randomly, but I also find mistakes here and there.
(41:54):
And I get the mistakes because if anyone were to Google something right now, you're going
to find a mistake.
And this one technology is based yet on another, which is then grabbing information from another
platform like the cloud.
So whatever is out there hasn't been corrected.
So it's going to learn mistakes as much as it's going to learn good information.
(42:15):
Same deal with the bias that they're saying is inherent.
And there are lawsuits that cover subscription based information.
You can't access that, but what if that information is what you really want?
And I talk on AI a lot here and there, whereas we're trying to figure out AI.
Yet people haven't mastered a zoom background or how they should look on a computer.
(42:38):
But you're helping with that.
I've seen your LinkedIn videos.
I'm trying, but I still get attorneys all the time who look ridiculous on the camera
because it's like on the light.
They're either in witness protection on one extreme or they've like harnessed the sun
right in front of them that are so overlit.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
Some people for networking events will spend a lot of time making sure that their outfit
is good.
(42:59):
But yet for an online camera presence that may live forever, not so much.
For companies who claim they're private, like your WhatsApp conversations are totally, they're
private, they're encrypted.
You can't get to them.
Is that true?
So you would need to chat with David Greedham, who is our forensic technician.
(43:20):
My understanding is that WhatsApp is collectible.
I don't know what kind of permissions need to be enabled in order to do that.
But if you're looking to run your dark web empire, my suggestion would be signal.
I use it to communicate with my brother who lives overseas.
It's pretty popular overseas.
So I guess if you're going to run an empire on your phone, we have to be careful of what
(43:42):
we use.
Maybe consult with you.
Right now, yeah, go with signal.
Honestly, the best way to do it, if I were going to be a criminal mastermind and I was
going to go about this and just wanted to communicate like Subrata, I would call, Kelby,
you're in a great position to do it, working at a law firm.
Call any discovery vendor who offers digital forensic services and just ask whether certain
(44:02):
people, oh, hey, I have a cell phone with signal on it.
Can you guys collect that by chance and see what they say and just start crossing things
off your list until you get to one that's like-
A lot of these companies promise that they can collect anything.
If you can see it, it can be collected by-
I don't understand.
Companies that work with lawyers, like lawyers are famous for avoiding like kind of everything,
all, never, none.
(44:23):
So any company in the legal space whose promises they can collect everything should raise a
red flag.
Especially since these things are changing constantly.
Just like lawyers, usually the answer is it depends.
Depends-
I hate that answer.
We're trained for that.
We're trained for that.
Even on the same device.
We both have whatever, iPhone 13s.
(44:44):
It's like, okay, but she ran an update yesterday and I haven't run that update.
That could materially impact what you can collect and what you can't.
I don't know if you saw my LinkedIn post the other day.
I did.
I did.
About the $10 gift card.
The $10, sorry.
Which I don't know if you followed up on that.
So just to clarify what we're talking about is CrowdStrike had an incident.
(45:04):
I guess they were trying to update people's Microsoft computers and I guess they do cyber
security and to apologize for computers and airlines and all this stuff being shut down,
they sent their clients, not everybody, just their clients, a $10 Uber-
Uber Eats.
Uber Eats gift certificate.
Now the follow up from that is that some of these gift certificates were not valid.
(45:27):
They were actually fraudulent or stolen.
Apparently that was actually Uber Eats fault because of the scale or just the sudden influx
of people redeeming them got flagged as fraud by Uber Eats.
That wasn't actually CrowdStrike's fault from what I understand.
Yeah, but that's still like, you picked the worst way to apologize.
Which kind of goes back to, yeah, that's why something like making legal human stands out.
(45:50):
It's like, you kind of have to have some empathy for what the person on the other side of this
thought process would, how they would feel.
Absolutely, yes.
And by the way, that is not my sound effect.
That is the police.
I don't think they're looking for us right here.
You go to a networking event and you're shy and whatever, and you need to do this first
approach, but the product is yourself.
(46:13):
You're selling yourself.
How do you do that?
Okay, rather than like talking generalities, I've got like a super specific practical one.
Try to hunt in teams, right?
So it's always better if you have a wingman, regardless of who that is.
It could not even be someone from your organization.
Kelby, you and I were discussing a gentleman who we both know who's going to be, I think,
on this program later on.
He's great because someone that you know will be like welcoming and happy to kind of include
(46:37):
you in their conversational circle.
If you have one of them, great.
If not, a colleague, a friend, whomever.
And if it's a totally cold room, so you don't know anybody, ordinarily these events are
kind of like standing cocktail, like past appetizers, right?
So there's those like bistro tables that you stand at.
Have one of those as close to the middle of the room as you can with your friend.
(46:58):
And you don't even really have to be talking to them.
But the fact that you're standing there with someone, inevitably somebody will come up
and put their drink on the table or like stand near you.
They'll come to you.
They kind of end up coming to you.
And it's a lot of it's swinging a miss.
Okay.
Some of the ones I go to, the first person that walks up, you talk to them, it's like,
oh, I'm a law student.
But then the next couple of people come by and you've had, again, talking to people,
(47:19):
collecting data points, pushing the horizon of your expertise out a little further.
So yeah, show up, bring a friend, try to grab that table in the room.
Thank you.
Amazing.
I try to grab the bottle of wine or something like that.
And then you pass it around.
That's how you attract people.
One other thing there, don't panic.
Right.
So sometimes you like work up the courage, you're like, I'm going in and you dive into
(47:41):
the middle of the room and then suddenly you're like, oh boy, abort.
And you try to like walk back out, just force yourself to like, just present just, hey,
I'm Kevin.
How are you?
And then if it's slightly awkward, it'll be awkward for like four seconds.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, because everybody is there to do the same thing.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
I really hate it.
And networking events when you get there late and everyone has their circle that you're
(48:02):
trying to like, you're trying to penetrate the circle and trying to get in there and
see if you can make conversation with someone.
Don't do the creepy laps around the circle.
I'll try not to do that.
This has been really fun.
Thank you very much for being on the show.
I've learned a lot and you have so much great information from marketing your product and
networking with people, knowing you're, you've got resources at your company, but it all
(48:27):
comes from experience.
I can't wait to listen to the other guests.
This will certainly be included in my resources.
Yeah, no, I think we had really great guests and they all have their perspective and it's
fascinating how many of them come from a background where they didn't just grow up and say, this
is what I want to do the rest of my life.
This is, it's been a journey.
I think that's a great message and your journey is fascinating how you got here.
(48:51):
And I don't know.
Do you hope to stay in DC?
We're pretty much here.
Yeah.
We bought a house a couple of years ago and it's down the street from my in-laws and my
parents are nearby.
And I think there would be like an insurrection in my family if we tried to move anywhere.
That's great.
I hope to run into you and into future events and I'm sure I will, whether they're here
or whether you want to or not.
(49:12):
It's my job to follow up.
Well, thank you very much for being on the show.
Appreciate it.
Thanks guys.
We are back on the show.
(00:29):
And today I have a very special guest.
And hopefully I don't butcher your name.
I actually went on Google to get a better idea of how to say it.
So here we go.
It's Kevin.
Nailed that part.
All right.
And the R is silent in your last name.
Is that correct?
(00:50):
So you're making it hard on yourself because you're going with the Polish.
You're going with the Polish.
Oh, see, that was a problem.
I can't even do it properly.
I was friends with a woman who was English, but of Polish descent, spoke Polish fluently
and she could nail it.
It sounded so foreign to me.
I just say Brzezowski.
That's the English size.
Brzezowski.
Okay.
Brzezowski is a good thing I'm not introducing.
(01:11):
Yeah.
Hey, that's fine.
Actually, I'll give you a quick PSA on Slavic last names.
The ski at the end operates like a D in Spanish.
It indicates.
So what precedes the ski is the area you're from.
Okay.
So Brzezow is a province in Poland.
Okay.
And I think what makes you especially more special is the fact that you are our first
(01:33):
non-lawyer guest.
One of the things we talk about is that how many lawyers there are in DC, but you are
not a lawyer.
You gain all this knowledge because you are on speaking events.
You're on panels.
You're talking to attorneys.
You're learning on the job from e-discovery and all these things.
So to introduce you a little bit better, I think what you do now is you work at a level
(01:56):
legal.
And you have a really great slogan, right?
It's where you make legal human, making legal human.
And that's one of the things actually that really attracts you when you're at a legal
tech event or something like that.
You're like, wait, what does that mean?
Making legal human.
So we'll go into that.
But what do you do for someone who may have no idea there is a legal tech sector yet?
(02:21):
How do you end up getting to know so much about this industry?
You work with attorneys, but what do you help them do?
Sure.
I should probably caveat that it's almost like an antitrust.
If you define a market narrowly enough, you'll find some kind of anticompetitive behavior
there.
I think it's fair to say that I know a good bit on a very discrete set of topics within
(02:43):
law.
And there's an ocean of things that I don't know and probably have never heard of.
So with that out of the way, it's really just experience.
This is entering my 12th year now in the space, in the e-discovery space, and was a litigation
paralegal in the IP discipline for a number of years prior to that.
And so just-
You were like a clerk for four years or something like that, right?
(03:05):
Yeah, they called it, I was like a sub paralegal actually.
Okay.
I'm probably doing a disservice to paralegals by calling what I did paralegal work.
But yeah, it was like your standard sort of post undergrad.
There was a small army.
They actually called them classes of litigation clerks.
We did just general lit support.
But interestingly, we got to go to trial.
And that was the most engaging aspect of the work then.
(03:27):
Firstly, because you could make time and a half over time for several weeks.
But also sitting in the courtroom and seeing how all of the work that you'd been able to
participate in up to that point comes to fruition.
And all of the documents that you've coded and the redactions that you've made and the
deposition designations, like to see them projected on the screen and the lawyers articulating
(03:49):
the argument that those informed was super cool.
And also the connections you make, of course, with the case team, because the folks that
you work with in your office might only be a few of the trial team that's assembled.
So you get to meet partners from other offices, the client, of course, any co counsel.
So that was really cool too.
For anyone who might not know what antitrust is, I think outside of the US, they call it
(04:13):
competition law.
And in other parts, they call it anti monopoly law.
So that's what antitrust is.
And of those three words for it, I think whoever calls it competition, I assume that's Europe.
Yeah.
If we're getting into semantics, I think that's probably right.
Because anti monopoly law and by extension, antitrust seems a little narrow when you consider
(04:34):
that antitrust as it's practiced in the US, of course, includes conduct issues and items
outside of simply monopoly.
Competitive behavior is analyzed by the agencies and competition law seems to be a better umbrella
term.
You're also our first Washingtonian.
There's so many people that come here from other parts or other countries.
(04:55):
It's actually really hard to meet someone from Washington in Washington.
It's crazy, right?
Yeah, you went to Virginia Tech and then you went you got a master's in George Mason.
That's right.
Yeah.
Actually, I was an army brat.
And so we lived all over, moved every few years, which was great, I think, for the fact
that my job, more or less these days, is to build new relationships, it equipped me pretty
(05:18):
well to do that because I had to do it every three years, essentially.
So yeah, settled for the bulk of my young adult life in southeastern Virginia on the
Chesapeake.
And when you grow up there, your options when you graduate are essentially to go south to
like Charlotte, up to Richmond.
But most people come to DC.
And I had family members already working here.
(05:38):
So I had an air mattress to crash on.
And that's how I found myself here and apart from a three year stint overseas, I've been
working here my whole adult life.
And that stint overseas, I guess you were working a bit in Dubai.
That's right.
Yeah, in the UAE.
So yeah, my prior organization, where I was for the better part of a decade, had an opening.
(05:59):
And you know, I was young, single, didn't own a home and thought, hey, now's the time.
That was cool.
Yeah.
So what was your favorite part of that experience?
That's it's pretty interesting that you changed from the US to the UAE.
Sure.
How was that like?
Yeah, I mean, the favorite part of the experience, the just the people that you have the opportunity
to meet because you mentioned it's difficult to meet a Washingtonian in DC.
(06:22):
It's probably as rare, if not more rare to meet somebody who's actually from Dubai, born
and raised.
You're meeting folks from all over the world.
Yeah.
The UAE actual Emirati citizens are distinctly in the minority.
And you have a whole tapestry of folks from across everywhere, really, in the legal sector,
you're primarily dealing with folks in the UK, at least in my personal experience.
(06:43):
But you have folks from like the Indian subcontinent and the surrounding areas.
And so it's cool.
People with all different backgrounds, all different life experiences come together and
exist.
It seems like whatever baggage might exist where they're from was left behind.
And everybody just gets on with the business there.
It's a wheeler dealer environment for sure.
Wow.
So and one of the things we were talking about a little bit offline is how much you're part
(07:07):
of the job is you're like a professional networker.
You are, I guess, maybe learning as an army brat, you know, how to pack, how to keep it
light and you are just going from one event to the other event, meeting people, all sorts
of things.
So,
Oh, Kelby, I kind of blush at that description coming from you.
You might be one of the best networkers I've met.
In fact, hey, if you ever want to get into the discovery space, we should talk.
(07:28):
Oh, man.
One time I thought about it because it's great.
You're meeting people all the time.
But funny enough, like I am, I think, a closeted introvert and I come out of the closet for
special moments, special occasions.
But after these events, I'm just dreaming.
I'm the same way, honestly.
It didn't used to.
I don't know.
Have you found that it's like become that?
(07:50):
It has.
And then I think that's what then makes me appreciate a good networking event is then
you spend less time trying to convince somebody of either your product or what you do, what
it is, and then you're actually asking people like what they do, maybe try to feed off different
energies because there are moments where I'm maybe at a legal tech event or meeting somebody
and I can just tell that they don't either don't believe in their product or they're
(08:13):
just like just cakewalking.
They don't really know what they're talking about.
And sometimes in the vendor experience, at least on this side, I don't know if you see
it on your side, but on this side, we know when someone is trying to offer a service
and they don't really believe in their product.
You can feel that energy.
(08:34):
I don't know if you see that sometimes when you're dealing with lawyers and if they don't
like really know what to do, but maybe their ego gets in the way and they don't want to
share the fact that, Hey, I don't know what to do, but you can normally see it in the
glossy look in the eye.
But yeah, no, that would say, I think you hit the nail on the head.
(08:54):
That was the steepest part of the learning curve.
Excuse me.
For me, having no business background before I got into what I do now is, you know, for
better or worse, my only like experience with salespeople had been like at a car dealership,
figuring out that meetings in which you're speaking maybe 20% of the time are the best
meetings when you're having essentially just receiving a download of people's experiences
(09:18):
and what's important to them.
It's it's just mutually beneficial.
You discover whether your product or services are a good fit and and how they'd be a good
fit.
People buy different things.
A quick anecdote, actually, I was I think about this stuff all the time now.
I'm a little bit obsessive with kind of the discipline of sales and I was outside of my
(09:39):
house last weekend and this kid rocks up and he's with a pest control service.
And so I'm like, all right, here we go.
Came on very professionally and confidently and I was like, all right, okay, let's hear
what he has to say.
But then just started going into features and benefits ad nauseam.
After I told him I had a service I was happy with.
And so he walked away and I'm like, why didn't I give that?
What was it about that?
(09:59):
That he appeared professional.
He was confident in his approach.
He knew his product.
But then I realized, had he said two days prior, I noticed I have these wasps on the
side of my yard.
Yeah, God, those things are really annoying because when I mow the lawn, they're buzzing
all around.
If by some miracle he had said, hey, we specifically treat these ground wasps that we know to be
a problem in this neighborhood.
(10:21):
That would have been a conversation.
Yeah.
It's just so difficult to isolate things like that when you're not listening and when you're
just trying to talk about the features and benefits of your products.
So in your profession, it's really important to get to know people.
And that's something that you wouldn't have, let's say, learned at any school that you
would have gone to.
Or did you?
I mean, there was ever a class on like, how to read people.
(10:43):
Not really.
Yeah, I didn't study the right things.
It's outside of an MBA, which I don't even know if that does the trick.
But okay, this could be the most ignorant thing ever.
Maybe it exists.
But I feel like given how many people get into business development and how important
it's going to be, especially with technology products to differentiate, you'd think there
would be a more formal academic endeavor aligned to that.
(11:05):
But no, it's mostly just anecdotal experience.
This is, I think, a great moment for me to turn to my co-host.
In law school, did you ever have a class?
Not even in Colombia nor here.
I had classes on how to network.
But it's very important.
Although I did notice that people that are from the United States, you guys have that
(11:29):
culture of networking.
Back home, it's more like not a culture of networking, but a culture of socializing.
Not enough.
Not in a business way, which is pretty odd.
I do have some questions for you, Kevin.
(11:49):
If you're into business development and you're new in this field, how would you get there?
Which advice would you give someone that wants to get into business development?
Because nowadays for law firms, it's not just about that you're a good lawyer, a good professional
in law that wants to work with them, but you need to add those other things that might
make you look prominent.
(12:10):
And business development is a great area.
Yeah, no, it's a good question.
I think it's a two-parted question if I'm hearing you.
How to get into it and then basically how to develop your skill set once you're in it.
The first part of the question, how to get into it.
And look, I'm no expert, but my take is to just start doing it.
Don't overthink it, which I know is tough for attorneys sometimes.
I mean, that's the whole point of law school.
(12:33):
You're thinking differently, thinking theory.
You just got to dive in and just start saying yes to things.
Not only when people ask you, but saying yes to things in your own head.
If you see something online, oh, okay, there's this reception for white collar, antitrust,
whatever bar section I belong to.
Just commit to yourself to go.
And if it doesn't go well, then what does that mean really?
(12:55):
Are people going to turn point at you, laugh and heckle you and stone you out of the room?
No, probably not.
Any data point that you collect by going to these things is ultimately useful even if
you can't immediately see how.
So everybody you talk to, if you talk to an IP lawyer, that informs our conversation with
the next IP lawyer.
You just have more empathy for their day to day.
(13:19):
And then how to get good at it is, so this is not like a proprietary FOD or anything,
but it's collect data points as often as you can, whether that's through reading, blogs,
conversations, whatever.
Essentially the more material and content through whatever media you expose yourself
to, the more data points you'll have to port onto other people's data points and find commonalities.
(13:42):
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
No, but I think you're being incredibly modest because you right now are hosting your own
sort of platform, What's Brewing and Antitrust.
And I was lucky enough to attend one of your sessions and I learned so much from just your
guests and what they were talking about.
And so you're right, you absorb that kind of information.
But at the same time, you're not just like anybody else trying to present a product.
(14:07):
You are now collaborating with major firms like Covington, like Jones Day, Fresh Fields,
Whiten Case.
These are major firms that also have an interest.
They want to be on your platform and get to be able to speak.
And that I think is a huge like gold star when it comes to bringing people together,
but also sharing that knowledge.
So I think that's an amazing thing that you do.
(14:29):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
And hey man, you can join them all.
You don't have to limit yourself to one.
And I think just a side point.
I think anyone who doesn't know this stuff, they should just get in there and just listen
to these people because sometimes you can just start to absorb this information.
But when I'm in the legal world and it's crazy hours, the work can be demanding and you're
(14:54):
a single guy and you're meeting all sorts of people.
It can be really hard to date, to get to know someone or have that person even trust that
you're going to be there because I remember when I went through it, it was very difficult
for the person I was dating to be like, wait, why do you have to travel at the drop of a
hat or you're meeting all these people, you're getting all these phone numbers, you've got
(15:17):
business cards all over the place.
You smell like booze all the time.
I don't know if, because you were talking about like you were single in Dubai, but now
you're married.
Was that, did you find it difficult as well?
Like just because of the environment?
Not really.
It's a bit more enabling to anybody in that situation, I would say wait till you have
a four year old and a three week old.
(15:39):
You probably have more time than you may think.
But in a way, not just Dubai, I was single for the first five years of my career doing
this.
And yeah, the hours at least initially for the first several years were crazy, probably
on par with what an associate at a big law firm might do because of the nature of the
work.
(16:00):
You're getting client requests throughout the day, you're developing your agenda for
networking events and the like.
And then of course those networking events by and large tend to be after hours.
And there is travel, of course.
And yeah, the net effect is that you're pretty busy.
I was lucky to meet my wife in grad school and she also has a demanding job with the
(16:20):
federal government with a lot of travel and she's very career oriented.
And so I suppose it wasn't by design, but just natural selection, you end up with somebody
who's like similarly situated, which makes things easy in terms of like expectations
and whatnot.
I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for.
You think that you're working very late hours and with a high stress environment, just do
(16:41):
it with a toddler.
It's so different.
You're being woken up at three in the morning when you didn't want to, you might be having
to change because someone spit up on you.
It's very different, I think, than being spit up at a happy hour.
Yeah, it probably, yeah, not quite as entertaining actually.
I just mentioned we have a three week old now and our first night at home.
(17:02):
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Yeah, our first night at home with him a couple of weeks ago, I'm dealing with him.
It's two o'clock in the morning.
He had a combination of liquids coming from different places that I had to clean up.
And for the first time in like at least six months, my four year old decides that's the
moment that she's also going to have an accident.
So like I've got multiple baby monitors going off, it's 2 a.m. and I'm thinking like, will
(17:26):
life ever be normal again?
Because how many do you have, Kelby?
Well, I have two.
One is nine and the other six.
So you're almost out of it.
Yes, I'm almost out.
Well, you know, they no longer sport liquids on you just in the corner of the bathroom.
That seems like a trainable.
Yeah.
I'm sorry, Marie, I know that you had a whole bunch of questions.
(17:47):
I didn't know if I interrupted you with your train of thought.
That's part of the conversation.
I like where this is heading.
Well, can I say one more thing on your earlier point that I think is really cool?
You mentioned in Colombia, the culture of networking is more a culture of socializing
and socializing implies to me, at least to a certain extent, like some enjoyment and
(18:08):
a removal of some of the pressure that's like incumbent in the word networking for whatever
reason.
So that seems like almost an ideal setting.
And it forces you to, if you're just socializing and not networking, you're probably not going
hard on positioning, whatever it is, your service, your expertise, your product, and
you're instead just getting to know people, which I think is frankly networking at its
best.
(18:29):
That's awesome.
Because every time I go out and my wife thinks I'm about to have a lot of fun, but she has
no idea.
Like when I come home, I'm like drained because we're talking about legal topics and stuff.
And your social battery just goes down.
It does because you're not socializing for yourself.
You're really socializing either your promoting a firm, your product, you're trying to get
somebody to be on a webinar or something like that, or maybe just you might be the only
(18:52):
person representing your company, your firm at an event.
So you need to be there.
It can be really important.
You might be absorbing brand new information at an event as well.
So it's not always a ton of fun.
Hopefully.
Yeah.
But on that point, Kevin, how do you recharge your social battery after this networking
(19:14):
events that take so much?
Oh man, back in the day, I would have said a handful of ice cold IPAs.
You're more a beer guy than a wine guy.
Yeah.
Well, you can't tell.
But no, more recently, I really like the morning.
So I don't think it's a recharge.
It's more of a pre-charge.
I get up pretty early by necessity for reasons we've discussed, but ordinarily, if there's
(19:39):
an immediate thing to be done with the kids, I can get that done very quickly and they
go back to sleep for a bit.
And my wife will stay upstairs with them, hopefully sleeping in.
And so I have an hour to 90 minutes to myself early in the morning, sun's coming up.
That first, I drink a ton of coffee.
So the first three cups of coffee is just is great.
I'll get some reading done or get a head start on if it's a heavy day, the day's work.
(20:00):
But that, at least for me, really helps as like a reset and a focusing exercise.
Oh yeah.
That first cup of coffee in the morning for me is like heaven.
It's like I don't even need breakfast.
I mean, you should obviously eat breakfast, but if I had to choose, it would be coffee.
Oh, totally.
Yeah, I agree.
So I'm sure you get this a lot, but just going back in your background, you did international
(20:24):
global studies and you've done international policy and commerce and things like that.
Was your goal this what you're doing now?
Was that working in legal, working in business development?
Legal a little bit.
Yeah.
I think a lot of folks who practicing law always seemed to me to be like the apex of
(20:45):
a liberal arts education, which I was pursuing.
But then, hey, I took the LSAT.
I was probably a bit ambitious with the schools I applied to and I only applied to three.
And the one that I got into was the most expensive by a wide margin.
And it was 2008 when the ROI on a very pricey law degree from the school you were least
excited about was questionable.
(21:06):
And by now it's like tripled.
Yeah, I'm sure it has.
So yeah, after chatting it through with my parents and whatnot, decided to hold off.
And then I thought about getting out of the legal space entirely.
My sister and one of my older brothers was in the federal government and that work seemed
exciting at least their work in the federal government did with all the things that interested
me international exposure, travel and the like.
(21:28):
So is that why you started working at Homeland Security?
Yeah, that's where my sister was.
So nepotism in the highest order, I got like a menial job in the office that she was in,
but quickly realized that I don't know if it was the role or whatever.
But that when you're coming from the legal industry, which is so dynamic and cool, and
you get the opportunity to do a lot of fun and frankly, kind of fancy things being like
(21:52):
a GS seven.
And I was I was probably too old for that anyway.
So yeah, when I thought about reentering the legal space, it was like the question became,
okay, I don't think law school or being an attorney is on the table at least right now.
But what else can I do that that wouldn't forfeit the at that point, three, four years
(22:13):
of experience working in a law firm that I had.
And actually, this is probably a good point for associates or anybody who may not think
that their current role is like their forever role.
Because yeah, I really struggled.
I was looking around like thinking, okay, what can I you know, so that's why policy
seemed attractive to me, because there's some intersection with law there.
(22:35):
A lot of law firms will have a policy arm or almost like a lobbying arm.
And I never thought about e discovery or outsource litigation support, even though I was engaging
with vendors in my paralegal or litigation clerk role all the time.
And they were always really cool.
And it's that seemed like they were moving, living this kind of fast paced lifestyle.
And the business element was interesting, but it just didn't occur to me.
(22:58):
And so I suppose the lesson there for folks would be to consider all of the components
of your ecosystem and be curious about them and ask people about their role because you
never know something that you might discount or not not even really consider could be the
answer or at least a step towards a path that might ultimately suit you.
(23:19):
But that's a great point going back to what do they teach in law school.
I don't think there is a class on e discovery and data and compliance issues, internal investigations,
all that stuff.
I think that's going to change in the near term.
I really hope we talk about that all the time because it's incumbent in the model rules
on attorneys to be proficient in the technology that's broadly used in their field.
(23:40):
And especially at the pace that things are evolving and changing in the legal tech space,
there's going to have to be some kind of baseline awareness.
But until then, and this isn't a plug necessarily just for level.
I can do it until then they come to you.
Well, a lot of a lot of companies like mine, they'll offer training recognizing that that
training really gap.
Yeah.
So level legal has developed a pretty successful e discovery program targeted associates that
(24:04):
we offer as a marketing strategy.
So it's free of charge.
Yeah, we don't do it for everybody.
Ordinarily, it's folks who we work with a lot and we can really understand what the
training limitations are and what would be useful to help folks develop.
But we'll.
Yeah, yeah, it's been well received.
It sounds like a win win situation to me because the associate doesn't want to admit that they
don't know enough.
(24:24):
And you know, and you want to be able to provide business and get to know the people you're
going to work with.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
So the junior associates especially will come in and they'll get a crash course.
And then of course, we make those connections and hopefully they've derived some value
from the training and we come to mind when they ultimately are asked to go to market
and source some bids.
I think that if everyone's going to work with you, they should work with you like early
(24:49):
on.
I think that's a great point.
If you don't get your advice on how a project should be done, I have a project this way.
What do you recommend?
I think that's if anything, where attorneys should put their ego aside and just say, hey,
I don't know enough about this.
What can you recommend?
Is that do you get calls like that these days now, especially with AI and all this other
stuff that's going on?
(25:09):
Yeah, for sure.
Actually, it's funny when you say that the first person that comes to mind is my colleague
who I'll give a shout out to here.
His name is Daniel Bonner and he is the epitome of what you're talking about.
He gets calls from very senior partners contemplating super serious engagements, very large transactions,
(25:29):
especially the antitrust base.
And they're genuinely interested in his input.
They're not asking him level legal's capabilities are.
They're asking him the person what he thinks about a situation, the scope of which might
exceed what level legal would ultimately support.
And so that's been a great role model on a smaller scale.
Of course, there are instances like that.
But I think what you're getting at is that people say, I read a lot about sales, like
(25:55):
the academics of sales.
And several years ago, when I first got into it back like 2014, 2015, there was this book,
The Challenger Sale, which indicated that relationships are dead and that you have to
go with, you essentially have to make it a mathematical proposition to say that here's
why you should work with me because it makes dollars and cents or whatever the case may
be.
(26:15):
That's an oversimplification of the book.
I disagree.
Of course, you read these things and you have to take all of it with a grain of salt.
But relationships are efficiency if you think about it.
It's not just, oh, Kelby's a nice guy and I like working with him because we're friendly.
It makes logical sense.
There's efficiencies there.
He understands how I work.
I can count on him to discuss an invoice disparity offline to discover who's in the right or
(26:39):
wrong and maybe have it amended before others are brought in.
So it just is a best practice, I think, to select a handful of people that you have relationships
with and barring some service delivery issue, which would prevent you from continuing to
work with them, to continue to rely on them because of all of the kind of read in time
(27:00):
that they have in working with you and understanding your team and how you work.
Working in this industry, I was always afraid of making mistakes.
What you do is very helpful to some people.
You're probably helping them out of a jam.
They probably have the capacity, the resource to do something like e-discovery in-house,
(27:21):
but they don't have that same expertise or experience because I assume that you've gone
through a lot of different scenarios and learned from mistakes because this wasn't what you
initially wanted to do.
This is something that you fell into but also now have gained a lot of experience from.
Yeah, a lot included there.
(27:42):
But to begin with, I'd like to start with the copping to mistakes.
Of course they happen and I understand the bulk of your listeners and your guests or
associates.
There's a great book that came out, I think, last year called Big Law Confidential.
Have you heard of that one?
I haven't, no.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
It's a giant book, so you could almost treat it like a textbook, but it's broken up into
different sections and it is written anonymously by a Rainmaker partner who we understand to
(28:06):
be in an AmLaw, I think 10 or 20 practice in New York City.
Basically describes how he or she rose through the ranks from junior associates.
It actually starts like how to do your interviews for summer associate positions and then all
the way through accepting an offer and rising to partner.
But there's an entire section devoted exactly to mistakes are made and how to deal with
(28:27):
them.
The short answer is admit it early and obviously retain what you did wrong or figure out what
you did wrong so that it just isn't done again.
No harm the first time, usually, unless you do something really bad, I think.
It's the second time that will get you.
So yeah, certainly no ego when it comes to making mistakes.
Now moving on towards asking or receiving outside advice, even absent having explicitly
(28:54):
asked for it, like when you're engaging with a third party service provider.
Yeah, on the third party service provider side, I think there's some nuance to it because
you certainly, I work with clients all the time, especially me, that know a lot more
than I do.
And so you're in this awkward position of providing advice and counsel to folks who
may have double your number of years experience operating in this space, even in a need discovery.
(29:19):
But like I said, at the top of our conversation, if you widow down deep enough, everybody is
an expert in something.
And you have to look for opportunities where somebody might be sort of encroaching into
your zone of expertise.
And that's an opportunity to say proactively like, hey, well, have you considered or watch
out for or something along those lines.
And the beauty of that is that as you grow in your career, especially if you're doing
(29:42):
all the things that we talked about, saying yes to things, reading things, meeting with
people, listening to people, that zone of expertise really grows.
And then a few years or in certain circumstances, a decade or two go by and then you're like
Daniel Bonner who I mentioned where you're offering or being asked for advice by well
known names in a certain field.
If someone was interested in legal tech, how do they really start?
(30:06):
I mean, things are changing, especially with AI, things are changing, hardware changes
all the time as well.
And you recently got your certification as eDiscovery.
How does that make you better?
Is that like you're learning more about lingo or the most current technology?
(30:26):
Probably not the most current technology because I have like an academic course.
It can only be updated every so often, but probably more important than being on the
cutting edge of tech is best practice.
There are some buyers out there who are, especially in the legal tech world at the conference
that you've been to, obviously, you have a lot of people looking for what's new, what's
the latest like kind of beta versions of things.
But our customers are generally interested in defensible best practice.
(30:50):
How do we proceed with this discovery exercise in a manner that will not be challenged and
that will produce the results that we expect?
And the SEDS program does a great job of equipping you to offer counsel on those best practices.
I developed my career by being the middle person, the middle man between the tech and
(31:13):
the legal because a lot of times if I found they don't communicate, like the tech is like
security.
That's seen in office space.
Right.
You know what I'm talking about with the redundancy interviews?
Yes.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's right.
To your, what I understand to be your initial question, which is, what would you say to
maybe an associate who's looking for a different career?
(31:33):
I wouldn't let the tech piece actually factor in too much.
Look at what's behind the tech.
What's the actual activity that you'd be doing?
At my last organization, there was, I think he was a senior associate, like a Magic Circle
law firm is a British guy.
And if he ever hears this, he'll know exactly, he'll know I'm talking about him, but he's
awesome.
He and I became really good friends, but he transitioned from a senior associate in complex
(31:55):
commercial litigation to a consultative role at a new discovery vendor and built a great
career because obviously some familiarity from the user standpoint with the technology,
but more so with how folks interact with not only the tech, but the service generally and
what good basically looks like.
Okay, great.
I've seen it all.
(32:16):
I've been a customer of a few different providers and here's what's good.
Here's what didn't go so well.
And so let's build something based on that experience.
And I guess a quick plug for Level Legal.
Level Legal is interesting because it actually grew from a litigation law firm 15 years ago
down in the Eastern District of Texas.
And so we have throughout our C-suite, throughout our project management teams, exactly that.
(32:41):
Folks who used to be litigating attorneys, not only just drawn from different firms,
but as a cohesive firm are now a new discovery provider.
And then our first stop was in managed review, which is not to get too techy here, but towards
the end of the EDRM.
So we worked backwards.
So we started off offering contract attorneys to do a discovery review and then worked our
(33:04):
way upstream into providing hosted document review platforms and digital forensics.
But the reason that's relevant is that when we were only doing manager view, we were of
course basically customers to all of these third party hosted platforms because somebody
would host the data with whomever on relativity and we would work into it.
So just like my buddy who I mentioned, we saw the good, bad and the ugly and designed
(33:26):
to service based on that experience.
So it's a cool way to do it.
And coming around to my initial point, the experience that an associate would bring to
the table, working with their clients and with their colleagues could certainly inform
and improve a third party vendors offering.
But you're making this sound easy.
(33:46):
Like what makes the job hard or stressful?
Like everything.
Because you made it just sound like, okay, well, it's very systematic.
But if I ever get like a lawsuit and I look at opposing counsel and brief, I immediately
know you guys are in trouble.
There's things that are missing, things that are poorly written here and that.
(34:07):
Like I can already tell that and I already know where direction I should go.
If you get a new case or new client, do you sort of have that sense at this point?
Oh wow, we need to do a lot of work here.
Oh yeah.
It depends.
It depends what they're coming to you for.
Yeah.
It's just really, really tough and it doesn't even align to like the size or sophistication
(34:27):
of the law firm.
We deal with smaller practices that you might not have heard of outside of the M Law 200
that are like super squared away because this is what they do.
And conversely, we've dealt with some folks, some groups inside of M Law practices where
frankly, we've been able to add some helpful expertise, but it's ordinarily, it all our
(34:49):
entire industry is built on data and so you can normally start with how people approach
the concept of data.
Like how well do they understand what they have and what needs to be done with it?
Is there an ESI agreement in place?
Do they know what's in the ESI agreement?
Have they discussed with the other side?
Of course, how things are going to be given and received.
So that's what makes it hard is the fact that those questions are unanswered.
(35:12):
When they're unanswered, it's both a good and bad thing.
In the immediate term, it can lead to some challenges getting everything loaded in a
discovery review platform properly for them because it might've been received in a suboptimal
format.
But the opportunity there is that it provides some scope for you to add expertise and for
you to help.
And when you do that, when you materially improve the way a practice group or an attorney
(35:36):
team operates, that is so much more valuable than just satisfactorily delivering a contracted
service because folks think of you as somebody who helped provide a real solution.
Is it expensive for small law firms to do this transition into using tech and these
kind of platforms?
eDiscovery is a process, only large relative to the size of the data in scope and what
(36:00):
you need to do with it.
So if you have a thumb drive with 5,000 documents on it, sure, you could have an associate who
bills $500 to $700 an hour click through them one by one, or you could plug it into one
of our systems.
It's less than a gigabyte.
It would probably cost you $10 to do.
And for the cost of lunch, you can have removed all of the duplicate files.
You could set date filters, run your keywords over it and bang, boom, there you go.
(36:22):
And that can be the extent of it.
Yes, obviously there are eDiscovery exercises out there that I would like to see more of
that can run into seven figures, but there are many that there's a reason that eDiscovery
vendors have a minimum fee and that's to protect your downside because sometimes you could
be doing an eDiscovery exercise for like 30 bucks.
I would say don't be, especially to international attorneys, don't be put off by perceived cost.
(36:46):
The cost is relative to the need.
I find that a lot, especially internationally.
I mean, the rest of the world isn't as prone to eDiscovery and collecting hard drives and
all this data and roomfuls of documents the way the US is.
So I think it's really hard to convince attorneys from other countries that they should do this
(37:06):
or that this is a solution.
I find white collar work to be interesting for that reason because if the US government
is asking you for documents, they don't really care where you are or what the eDiscovery
familiarity is.
So yeah, you're generally or internal investigations even you've got to get after the evidence
that would ultimately inform your representations to the government.
(37:29):
So that's essentially what you do.
Do you make it easier for me to find what I need to look for, what I need to find by
putting keywords or filtering out stuff that maybe is not necessary?
Maybe somebody has like sent memes to each other or something like that?
Well, yeah, or it could be obviously a litigation strategy.
The other side, a David and Goliath set up large corporation versus a smaller claimant
(37:51):
or something.
Yeah, data dump.
And so we can help to level the playing field.
That's not something that Hollywood invented.
That is an actual thing.
That's an actual thing.
If I request, hey, I would like a memo on this date and here's a million documents,
have fun and find it.
Yeah.
Our experience has been we've supported a number of mass tort type transactions, class
actions, and some of these companies that are frequently subject to class action litigation,
(38:14):
they will have like data dumps like boxed and ready to go.
So it's okay.
Here's an inbound claim.
Boom, here you go.
Here's like whatever a terabyte of data, you know, good luck sifting through it.
So yeah, smart and efficient application of your discovery technology can help to level
the playing field.
That's what it's all about.
You're quickly and efficiently working through large troves of data to get at what's germane
(38:35):
to your case.
But if the government were to pass some law that says that that is no longer allowed,
do you suddenly lose business or you still have a lot to do?
I don't even know if that's a long shot because I think that would require an update to the
FRCP.
Yeah.
Then no, I don't think we would lose business because data volumes are growing daily and
(38:58):
they have been for quite some time, for 15, 20 years.
And so even if folks are doing more front end work to limit what they disclose to the
other side, you know, there are going to be many circumstances in which that's still quite
voluminous and would require technology and people to help work through at a lower billable
rate than, and it's not just the lower billable rate than an associate.
(39:19):
It's because certainly we're by no means accusing law firms of not having their clients.
Like an associate who's like, let's say at a small firm charging a hundred hours an hour,
they shouldn't be off put by this.
They should say, oh, well, no, you're going to help me beyond.
Yeah.
If we can do it for 50 and it's not just the cost reduction to the end client too, it's
the case teams will generally, you can't bill unlimited hours.
(39:42):
I mean, unless it's like a bet the company litigation, oftentimes you cannot bill unlimited
hours as I'm sure it can be to a specific matter.
And so when you look at what is the best application of your associate leverage on a case, which
ultimately informs the profitability to the firm, you want them focused on the merits.
You want them billing time on what they are trained to do.
(40:03):
And so if we can simultaneously get through this data more cost efficiently, but also
in a manner that frees up associate bandwidth to do the work practice at the top of their
license, then that's just a universal benefit.
Right.
So what's next for this legal tech field?
What do you think it's missing?
And are still people like reluctant to it?
(40:26):
How do you perceive that?
Well, it might be self-selecting.
I don't come across a ton of reluctance anymore, but again, it's probably just because of who
I market to.
You know, it used to be that people were reluctant about using the cloud and, you know, there
are like anti-cloud policies here back and forth.
And now we were seeing the same thing with AI, but everyone's on the cloud.
(40:48):
I was wondering if we were going to get through a podcast without mentioning AI.
Well, I think the cloud's a good example because yeah, initially there was some healthy skepticism
when a company is saying, hey, give us all your data.
We got it.
We'll store it for you.
But there's been huge benefits to that.
Not the least of which is good data hygiene.
(41:10):
Companies that host in the cloud typically have a better handle on information governments.
And then of course that has downstream benefits when you move data through the discovery process.
And AI might be the same.
Initially some skepticism, both from users and obviously recently from the courts, but
it's in its infancy still.
I read an article that the rate of development is slower than anticipated.
(41:31):
I think people thought it was going to be exponential because AI can help train itself.
But that's all on the technology side.
My sense is that the gap is between technology and product.
Two different things.
As long as AI is not in any of our marketing events or networking events, it's not learning.
It's learning for itself.
How do you use chat GPT?
I do it randomly, but I also find mistakes here and there.
(41:54):
And I get the mistakes because if anyone were to Google something right now, you're going
to find a mistake.
And this one technology is based yet on another, which is then grabbing information from another
platform like the cloud.
So whatever is out there hasn't been corrected.
So it's going to learn mistakes as much as it's going to learn good information.
(42:15):
Same deal with the bias that they're saying is inherent.
And there are lawsuits that cover subscription based information.
You can't access that, but what if that information is what you really want?
And I talk on AI a lot here and there, whereas we're trying to figure out AI.
Yet people haven't mastered a zoom background or how they should look on a computer.
(42:38):
But you're helping with that.
I've seen your LinkedIn videos.
I'm trying, but I still get attorneys all the time who look ridiculous on the camera
because it's like on the light.
They're either in witness protection on one extreme or they've like harnessed the sun
right in front of them that are so overlit.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
Some people for networking events will spend a lot of time making sure that their outfit
is good.
(42:59):
But yet for an online camera presence that may live forever, not so much.
For companies who claim they're private, like your WhatsApp conversations are totally, they're
private, they're encrypted.
You can't get to them.
Is that true?
So you would need to chat with David Greedham, who is our forensic technician.
(43:20):
My understanding is that WhatsApp is collectible.
I don't know what kind of permissions need to be enabled in order to do that.
But if you're looking to run your dark web empire, my suggestion would be signal.
I use it to communicate with my brother who lives overseas.
It's pretty popular overseas.
So I guess if you're going to run an empire on your phone, we have to be careful of what
(43:42):
we use.
Maybe consult with you.
Right now, yeah, go with signal.
Honestly, the best way to do it, if I were going to be a criminal mastermind and I was
going to go about this and just wanted to communicate like Subrata, I would call, Kelby,
you're in a great position to do it, working at a law firm.
Call any discovery vendor who offers digital forensic services and just ask whether certain
(44:02):
people, oh, hey, I have a cell phone with signal on it.
Can you guys collect that by chance and see what they say and just start crossing things
off your list until you get to one that's like-
A lot of these companies promise that they can collect anything.
If you can see it, it can be collected by-
I don't understand.
Companies that work with lawyers, like lawyers are famous for avoiding like kind of everything,
all, never, none.
(44:23):
So any company in the legal space whose promises they can collect everything should raise a
red flag.
Especially since these things are changing constantly.
Just like lawyers, usually the answer is it depends.
Depends-
I hate that answer.
We're trained for that.
We're trained for that.
Even on the same device.
We both have whatever, iPhone 13s.
(44:44):
It's like, okay, but she ran an update yesterday and I haven't run that update.
That could materially impact what you can collect and what you can't.
I don't know if you saw my LinkedIn post the other day.
I did.
I did.
About the $10 gift card.
The $10, sorry.
Which I don't know if you followed up on that.
So just to clarify what we're talking about is CrowdStrike had an incident.
(45:04):
I guess they were trying to update people's Microsoft computers and I guess they do cyber
security and to apologize for computers and airlines and all this stuff being shut down,
they sent their clients, not everybody, just their clients, a $10 Uber-
Uber Eats.
Uber Eats gift certificate.
Now the follow up from that is that some of these gift certificates were not valid.
(45:27):
They were actually fraudulent or stolen.
Apparently that was actually Uber Eats fault because of the scale or just the sudden influx
of people redeeming them got flagged as fraud by Uber Eats.
That wasn't actually CrowdStrike's fault from what I understand.
Yeah, but that's still like, you picked the worst way to apologize.
Which kind of goes back to, yeah, that's why something like making legal human stands out.
(45:50):
It's like, you kind of have to have some empathy for what the person on the other side of this
thought process would, how they would feel.
Absolutely, yes.
And by the way, that is not my sound effect.
That is the police.
I don't think they're looking for us right here.
You go to a networking event and you're shy and whatever, and you need to do this first
approach, but the product is yourself.
(46:13):
You're selling yourself.
How do you do that?
Okay, rather than like talking generalities, I've got like a super specific practical one.
Try to hunt in teams, right?
So it's always better if you have a wingman, regardless of who that is.
It could not even be someone from your organization.
Kelby, you and I were discussing a gentleman who we both know who's going to be, I think,
on this program later on.
He's great because someone that you know will be like welcoming and happy to kind of include
(46:37):
you in their conversational circle.
If you have one of them, great.
If not, a colleague, a friend, whomever.
And if it's a totally cold room, so you don't know anybody, ordinarily these events are
kind of like standing cocktail, like past appetizers, right?
So there's those like bistro tables that you stand at.
Have one of those as close to the middle of the room as you can with your friend.
(46:58):
And you don't even really have to be talking to them.
But the fact that you're standing there with someone, inevitably somebody will come up
and put their drink on the table or like stand near you.
They'll come to you.
They kind of end up coming to you.
And it's a lot of it's swinging a miss.
Okay.
Some of the ones I go to, the first person that walks up, you talk to them, it's like,
oh, I'm a law student.
But then the next couple of people come by and you've had, again, talking to people,
(47:19):
collecting data points, pushing the horizon of your expertise out a little further.
So yeah, show up, bring a friend, try to grab that table in the room.
Thank you.
Amazing.
I try to grab the bottle of wine or something like that.
And then you pass it around.
That's how you attract people.
One other thing there, don't panic.
Right.
So sometimes you like work up the courage, you're like, I'm going in and you dive into
(47:41):
the middle of the room and then suddenly you're like, oh boy, abort.
And you try to like walk back out, just force yourself to like, just present just, hey,
I'm Kevin.
How are you?
And then if it's slightly awkward, it'll be awkward for like four seconds.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, because everybody is there to do the same thing.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
I really hate it.
And networking events when you get there late and everyone has their circle that you're
(48:02):
trying to like, you're trying to penetrate the circle and trying to get in there and
see if you can make conversation with someone.
Don't do the creepy laps around the circle.
I'll try not to do that.
This has been really fun.
Thank you very much for being on the show.
I've learned a lot and you have so much great information from marketing your product and
networking with people, knowing you're, you've got resources at your company, but it all
(48:27):
comes from experience.
I can't wait to listen to the other guests.
This will certainly be included in my resources.
Yeah, no, I think we had really great guests and they all have their perspective and it's
fascinating how many of them come from a background where they didn't just grow up and say, this
is what I want to do the rest of my life.
This is, it's been a journey.
I think that's a great message and your journey is fascinating how you got here.
(48:51):
And I don't know.
Do you hope to stay in DC?
We're pretty much here.
Yeah.
We bought a house a couple of years ago and it's down the street from my in-laws and my
parents are nearby.
And I think there would be like an insurrection in my family if we tried to move anywhere.
That's great.
I hope to run into you and into future events and I'm sure I will, whether they're here
or whether you want to or not.
(49:12):
It's my job to follow up.
Well, thank you very much for being on the show.
Appreciate it.
Thanks guys.
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