October 10, 2024 • 47 mins
En este episodio, damos la bienvenida al socio y propietario de una próspera firma de abogados comerciales en Colombia, Santiago Sierra Ospina. Comenzando la firma con un amigo de la escuela de derecho y más tarde unido por su esposa como socia, comparte el inspirador viaje de convertir deseos y aspiraciones personales en una carrera satisfactoria. Apasionado por su trabajo, habla de cómo sus sueños se han unido en el campo del derecho comercial, creando una profesión que mezcla todas sus aspiraciones. Únete a nosotros para una conversación fascinante sobre pasión, colaboración y la realización de sueños en el mundo legal.
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In this episode, we welcome the partner and owner of a thriving commercial law firm in Colombia, Santiago Sierra Ospina. Starting the firm with a friend from law school and later joined by his wife as a partner, he shares the inspiring journey of turning personal wants and desires into a fulfilling career. Passionate about his work, he discusses how his dreams have come together in the field of commercial law, creating a profession that blends all his aspirations. Join us for an engaging conversation about passion, partnership, and the realization of dreams in the legal world.
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Guest Info:
Santiago Sierra Ospina, Partner and Co-Founder of Posada, Sierra & Castaño
Attorney from the Universidad Pontificia Bolivariana, specialist in Public Law from EAFIT University, and holds a master's degree in law with an emphasis on civil liability from the same university. He focuses his practice on administrative law matters, government contracts, public-private partnerships, real estate law, and dispute resolution. He is a university professor and a member of the lists of national and international arbitrators and secretaries of arbitration tribunals, and as an amicable mediator of the Centro de Conciliación, Arbitraje y Amigable Composición de la Cámara de Comercio de Medellín para Antioquia.
Website: https://www.psclegal.co
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/santiago-sierra-ospina-b803b2269/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Aaaannnd the video ends with a
nuanced rendition of how it ends.
Wow, we are back with an sweats婆TH shape!
Yeahhh cool dance moves!
(00:23):
the
and
(00:47):
with my co-host. Hello everyone, welcome back to the show. My name is Margarita Ango.
And today we are with Santiago Sierra Ospina. Am I right? You read it perfectly. Perfect.
For the people who are listening, you are a Colombian lawyer and you have come to the
United States for a course in commercial laws. Yes, yes. You work in the firm Posada, Sierra
(01:14):
Ospina and Castaño. Yes sir. And you are a partner. Yes. Sierra is my Sierra.
How do you decide who arrives first, second and third? In the line of partners? Yes.
In the name of the... Look, that's a curious thing. We are a firm of three partners, Mateo Posada,
(01:36):
Santiago Sierra and Mariana Castaño and that order is not for Twitter and that is a product,
even a consultancy. It is the most curious thing in the world. We were... We used to have
a... When we formed ourselves as a firm, suddenly following some guide at the time,
we did not choose to have a firm with the name of the surnames, but we called ourselves ITO,
(02:00):
legal consultancy. The ITO is a word in Spanish that has, let's say, a double connotation
in the legal field, in the construction field. So we called ourselves ITO, legal consultancy and
once a consultant told us, hey, how can you think of having a name that is not the surnames of the
partners? Then in some consulting process that we did, marketing and others, they said yes,
(02:23):
you are right. I mean, the worldwide trend... I see it changing a bit, but the worldwide trend
always in consulting services, in addition to legal consulting, goes with the surnames and these people
came up with a methodology where they basically made some combinations of the orders of the
surnames and based on a methodology they determined that the Posada should go first, first the Sierra
(02:45):
and finally the Castaño. Scientific. Yes, it is scientific. I mean, at this moment I cannot
realize that it was the same criterion, but at the time that was a firm that we hired and someone
gave us the name of the company, the Posada, Sierra and Castaño. Santi, how long has the firm been around? Look, we started
working together, Mateo and I, in 2013, with the subsequent... so working together,
(03:11):
just graduated, you know, just graduated from university, we started working together. They studied
together. We studied together, I will tell you the story in detail right now. Then we established the
firm as the vehicle, the vehicle in 2015 and in 2016 the third partner entered,
which is Marina Castaño. And yes, in fact, Mateo Posada, one of the partners, I met him at
(03:36):
the university, in the first semester of the university and really Mateo is my friend, my brother, my partner,
really it is... I have a pretty close relationship with him, of friendship that unites me. We started with him,
Mateo and I worked, let's say, in the same area of practice and in 2016, Mariana Castaño entered
(03:57):
to join the partner team. Mariana Castaño, I'm looking at the profile here on your page.
Yes, she is the one who is in red wine. Okay, are they three partners? Yes. And the fourth person in the photo?
She is Diana Posada, she worked with us for seven years, we already met her, she was a student,
(04:20):
I was in the university, we linked her as a trainee and she was with us for almost five years working.
She is no longer with us, she went to work. Ah, okay, yes, well, with all the same last names, I didn't know if it was
a brother or someone else. It was a confusion for Twitter. Okay, so this photo is more than seven years old.
This photo is approximately three years old, from the year 2021. The curiosity that I had, more than anything,
(04:47):
is to understand who the fourth person was, because they look very happy, how they are like brothers here,
more than anything, and this is taken in the signature where they are now. We have always wanted to project,
first, that we are a young signature, of young people and also a little bit of the spirit, a little bit of the
happy spirit. I believe that the three of us are happy people, people who value laughter. I am personally
(05:13):
a person who values laughter spaces deeply and I believe that laughter projects people a lot.
And when we took the photos, one of the points was Santiago, how do you want to see me? I want to go out laughing.
I like to go out laughing in all the photos I can. Well, and how do you handle those spaces that sometimes tend to
be stressful within our legal practice? Because yes, laughter is very cool, very important.
(05:37):
But how do you handle those spaces that can sometimes be stressful between such partners, such friends,
such close friends? I have not told you one thing, a detail that is no less, and that is that I tell you,
Posada Sierra Castaño, Mateo Posada, Santiago Sierra, Mariana Castaño. I did not tell you who Mariana Mariana
is, she also has the particularity that she is my wife. So the question that you also bring is a very relevant
(06:00):
question because of course I work with my best friend, I work with my wife. Yes. I think there are two,
there are several points and that is why I wanted to highlight the issue of joy or good energy,
good vibes that we try to have, to always have, but it is undeniable that the professional
scenario of ours is supremely interesting. What can I tell you? I know my partners as I do not know
(06:22):
any other person in the world. So I am able to travel through stressful moments,
through difficult moments, towards third parties and towards me. And since I know that in the end
there is a person I know behind, that I know who moves her, that I know who is looking for her,
who feeds her, who does not feed her, who projects her, who inhibits her, well, that allows me to
(06:46):
go through very easily through those unpleasant moments. Mariana runs the area of practice of
real estate, of tax law, in general private projects, hotel and others. I have zero
connection with that area. They are working together. Let's say that we are within the firm,
but let's say we have areas of different practice where I do not intervene, I intervene very little
(07:10):
because of the type of specialty. With Mateo I direct the area of retail and arbitration and I can say
that in that area the fluidity with which things are handled is superior precisely because of that,
because Mateo and I studied together, we have worked together, we have trained almost in the same
time, so you would be surprised how you get to have, let's say, the mental connection with the other person
(07:31):
to be thinking that he is, to know that he is thinking at a meeting at a moment. So let's say
that there is a moment of connection and very cool synchronicity that allows me to manage
adequately those moments of stress. Also because if we have had and we have put this on
express, it is that there is an absolute alignment of interests. There are people who will not really understand
what kind of work you do. Why would it be that it is stressful? Is it for time, is it the type of work
(07:58):
or is it a lot of work? One, amount of work, always, that is, the law firms are always
working with an immense amount of work, we are always working against the clock, it does not matter
the area, you are always working against the clock because you have a closure in an M&A, because you have
(08:19):
a contract to deliver in a corporate area, because you have a license to assist in the real estate
area, because you have a term to eradicate a writing, a response, a demand, a request,
and those are terms that are defeated, they do not open again, they are preclusive. So you always
have one, a factor of determined time and two, because finally, I am going to raise it from my
(08:44):
practical area, the litigation and the contractual litigation that we usually have
has a negative, difficult emotional burden, possibly of frustrations, of guilt, of errors,
of imputations, of responsibility, of egos, right? Of egos. So let's say that the work of the lawyer
(09:09):
is not properly, or at least our work, is not in a scenario favorable to happy, happy emotions,
but it always tends to have a difficult burden, although one enjoys so much that in the end
there is a satisfaction with whatever you do.
That kind of work seems to be quite frustrating, quite stressful. How does it come to a lawyer
(09:36):
working in that environment, to be married and working with someone of the same branch,
well, not working together, but the same work, I imagine that she also has her stress,
at one point she brings her home, there is a moment when they simply do not speak of the law,
(09:57):
then they do something else, of diversion or something.
Look, that's the big quiz of the subject, when Mariana became a partner of the firm,
in fact that was an idea of Mateo, my partner, that was not my initiative, but I saw it,
I saw it very well. The first moment was very, very, very useful, because in the office space
(10:23):
I managed to share many spaces with her in a week, go out to eat one day, see each other, talk.
So let's say that takes away too much pressure on the weekend, which is always something that is,
that is, you have to be giving up the office all the time to dedicate yourself to your girlfriend
on the weekend and the plans and that, then let's say that having her on the weekend was,
it allowed the weekends to be a little more peaceful.
(10:44):
We got married relatively young, young, I had, when I got married I was 28 years old,
Mariana was 25 years old, and a little bit like when you get married, I do not think that
28 years is a time to make a decision on a similar issue, but then it is taken,
because society demands it, because there is really an idea of what is right and what is useful,
but there are many things that one does not talk about, and many of the things that Mariana and I did not talk about
(11:10):
was how we were going to behave in our relationship as partners, and at the beginning it is taken,
the subject is ignored, it is the pink elephant in the room that we do not talk about because it is there,
and yes, it is, I mean, I already say it with total, it is difficult, it is complicated.
Especially if they do not agree.
Yes, of course, then that is the point, one thing is not to agree with your partner in something,
(11:35):
and that has a management way, another thing is not to agree with your partner, right?
And more when maybe this has in the background a relationship with this,
I am pointing my hands here as if I were talking to Mariana,
when Mariana partner and Mariana wife come to Santiago taking a decision as a partner that is different from their criteria as a husband,
(12:01):
that is complicated, in the last few years, I can tell you that it is more or less a year and a half,
we have had very serious conversations in relation to the separation of the office and the house,
I had a particular condition, and that is that I was not able in the pandemic to join the work from home,
I am not able to work from home.
(12:22):
Oh, I understand you.
I am not able, Mariana is able, but I am not able,
I mean, the pandemic, the strict moments of lockdown in Colombia were like four months, more or less three months,
I fulfilled them, I was the most careful, the world works from home,
but immediately the law enforcement officers let us go back to the office,
(12:44):
I was the first to pass my permit, I went to the office,
I started to come back because I have found a utility in separating what happens in my house from what happens in my office,
and I can assure you that I work every day under the idea of not having to arrive at the mail,
that I am not able to leave the writing, that I am not able to do the sentence, that I am not able to read,
(13:06):
I prefer to arrive an hour later at my house than to take me to work from home,
that was the first step, and the second was that we had to be very aware that breakfasts,
that meals, that maybe lunch, that the space on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays,
was not a space to solve work issues, that costs, that is difficult,
(13:30):
that is not as easy as making an agreement, that costs a lot,
and also with some flexibility to be able to say, ready, there is an important issue that we have to talk about, yes or yes,
but the issue has been, after several headaches,
to have difficult conversations and to make agreements that are fulfilled,
(13:53):
and that has helped us to improve in that space,
now I repeat, more aligned with impossible interests,
because I know that Mariana is there in the firm working, leaving everything to get a project ahead,
she already knows that I am there, giving everything, fighting to get a project ahead,
(14:14):
and we think of Mateo, our partner,
so when that happens, when I am absolutely sure that my partner and my partner are in the same line as me,
the autonomy flows, that is, ready, you are there,
I do not have to be on top of you, what are you doing there, if you are working, if you are billing, if everything,
you do not arrive at the meetings of partners, you say, oh, well, well, how are you doing, or how is Mateo doing, right?
(14:40):
So one facilitates that issue, but Kelvin, this that I am telling you is with blood, it is a...
But I understand you, because my first wife did not understand my career,
that sometimes I am sleeping in the office, I am traveling from one side to the other,
sometimes I have to respond to messages at midnight,
I think it is very difficult, especially in the law career,
(15:04):
that your partner does not understand your work,
and well, my wife now understood very well, because her brother worked in this field,
and she knew that he traveled, sometimes he took care of his children,
and I think it was very important to have a partner who not only understands that, but accepts it,
(15:26):
understands that this is part of the job, and sometimes one does not have control,
and I do not imagine how a person can have a boyfriend or girlfriend who does not understand the job,
does not support the job.
But what do you think then in that sense, because it is one thing that we were talking about,
Kelvin, before you get to it, if it is us as lawyers,
(15:47):
is it better to have a partner who is also a lawyer or not?
Oh my God, look, without a doubt, when your partner knows what you are dedicated to,
the industry in which you are, and the renunciations that you have to make in favor of another type of earnings,
(16:09):
I think there is a greater capacity to achieve those agreements.
I ask this question a lot with Mariana, I ask myself,
today by today, what profession does not work like we work?
I know that lawyers work a lot, a little bit too, we have a business scheme based on exploitation,
(16:30):
it is a reality, the firm of lawyers, yes, this is a topic that is already being worked on.
Well, it is also a burden that one puts on himself, right?
But also, but also for others, exactly, but also,
the firm would not demand you to work the number of hours that you work per week,
if the people were not willing to do that,
because they believe that they have to go through that because they are young to make a path in the world of lawyers,
(16:52):
that is a vicious circle, and I repeat the initial idea,
that it was not to destroy our industry, and we were missing it,
but I wonder who is not, who can really get home after a day of work and do nothing?
I circumscribe it, I am going to give you examples,
because I say, you have to be the operator of a machine, someone who operates the machine for 8 hours and turns off the machine and leaves,
(17:18):
and another comes and operates, and because the rest, at least in all professions that are at least intellectual,
or of intellectual predominance to the material,
really the work is taken home, if one wants, the whole work is taken home,
but I have no doubt that having your partner aligned in interests, that at the end of the day,
(17:40):
I return to the same, to the alignment of interests,
and I do not know, Margarita, if that is necessarily a matter of professions, as if of personalities,
and at the end of the day I repeat, in the scenario of a couple,
if your interests are not aligned, there is no way to save that,
(18:03):
but I did see it in the Bible when you told me, because even, I am going to tell you something,
with Mariana sometimes we have to make the claim of her,
and she is giving us her hand, she to me and I to her,
there are whole weeks in which one arrives late,
as I chose not to work at home, then I work at home, in the office I arrive late at home,
(18:28):
sometimes the claim arrives, as you see, we are already passing a limit,
there comes the having the things very clear, the ideas very clear,
the alignment very clear, the common goals very clear,
and knowing in advance what the renunciations are,
look, we want to buy the apartment we want, then we have to work more,
(18:53):
I will take longer to arrive, or I can arrive every day at 6 pm at home,
I get a job like that, but I have to live in some conditions,
I think that is to live in consequence with the goals that people are set,
and I am not saying what is the standard of goal,
that is measured case by case, person to person.
(19:15):
Well, and they have activities that they realize separately, that have nothing to do with work,
I mean, I don't know, you like to play tennis, or you have some other hobby that helps you,
maybe also to release a little that energy,
Yes, yes, let's say that I, for health reasons,
for about 5 years I have tried to be very active, sportively,
(19:38):
and specifically jogging, I found in the jogging a very effective physical activity,
I think that is the best way to spend time,
I can dedicate time to a physical activity,
I distribute my time between my work, my house, Mariana, the jogging,
(20:02):
as a physical activity, and my family, talking about my dad, my mom, and my sisters,
usually like the four pillars of my life.
I have been doing this for 5 years and not for 5 years.
But have you always wanted to be a lawyer?
Because it seems that you have had, you have built something great,
I mean, with your partner, with your wife,
(20:24):
but has it always been your dream to be a lawyer, something that you have dreamed of?
No, I remember a lot, because in that time of school I wanted to be a doctor.
A doctor, a doctor, who also has a good career.
I think that is one of the real, I think that is the real profession,
I owe medicine a lot to medicine, and to the doctors,
because I found some wonderful doctors,
(20:46):
who make you feel deep admiration for a person.
If you ask me, people I admire, certain doctors,
not all, not the doctors, but certain doctors, because they are...
Not my dentist.
They are powerful.
I wanted to be a doctor, some issues did not let me make that quiet decision.
In school there was a very particular thing,
(21:08):
that there was the representative of the groups, right?
I always, from very early on,
I was like a representative figure, let's say,
of democratic events within the school, right?
Like the group representations and this.
And in my school something very curious happened,
and that is that in my school there was a disciplinary procedure.
(21:30):
When a student made a mistake, the sanction was not imposed by the rector,
the sanction was imposed by a committee,
a committee of teachers, the psychologist, the school, the rector,
and the representative.
My God.
And the representative of the representatives.
So it was a curious thing, because I, without wanting to,
(21:51):
was the damn lawyer of all the bad guys in the school.
Right? Of all the bad guys who did something,
that was taken from that committee, which was usually the Falstons.
Who were against it?
The psychologist in my school was a thing, it was horrible.
So I started to develop certain,
with a certain sensitivity, by parameters of justice.
(22:13):
Right? I said, here, if this character does this,
and this has this sanction planned,
then let's apply this sanction, and nothing more than this sanction,
and nothing less than this sanction.
But please, before taking into account the sanction,
let's take into account that here too,
this manual of coexistence has some causes there of attenuation,
it was the first time he committed it, asked for a fine, recognized it.
(22:35):
I mean, I tried to really adjust the punishment that it was.
Well, I was talking, I was 11 years old, 12 years old, 13 years old,
and I was already a lawyer.
I was already technically a lawyer,
before an organizational body with power,
so that a person would be processed adequately.
And you came from a family of lawyers?
Zero. It's that I am the first generation of lawyers in my family.
(22:57):
I am the first lawyer.
In fact, in no way, in my lineage,
not for my mother, not for my mother,
from the genealogical tree there is a lawyer.
So I told you, I wanted to be a doctor,
but I started having this story of representing others,
of advocating for others,
and I had a third degree, and it is that for me,
(23:18):
always, I did very well with areas related to architecture.
Architecture, okay.
So in school I always like, not the arts,
but the technical drawing, I liked it.
In school there was a professional path to architecture,
I took those courses,
so I always was, I debated between being an architect,
(23:39):
being a doctor, being a lawyer.
To design buildings, houses, buildings.
Yes, buildings, in general buildings, urbanism,
I liked it, and today I love it.
Today you are a lawyer for the construction convention?
I am a lawyer, basically,
I have a speciality in public law,
(24:00):
another a master's degree in damage law,
and I exercise in litigation, arbitration litigation.
Many of them, the vast majority of them,
in relation to construction issues.
Look at the curious, right?
So I work, my life was organized,
and I started working with architects and civil engineers,
and those are my fundamental clients.
(24:23):
So when you make the decision to list where you are going to,
what you are going to do,
I discarded medicine,
I had architecture there,
but when I went to present,
I only went to the law school.
I did not have a plan B,
law school.
And I went to the law school,
and to a single law school.
(24:45):
I repeat, I did not go without plan B.
And that first year, you loved it,
you saw that this was for you.
That was love at first sight.
And did you have doctors and architects at home?
Yes, we had doctors.
In fact, my uncle was one of the most important figures in my life,
because he was my uncle, my dear uncle.
(25:06):
He was a doctor, I admire him deeply.
And I think he was part of the inspiration.
So my uncle was the one who found out that I was seeing in natural sciences
the circulatory system, and he brought me a cow's heart,
and he opened it with me, and he showed me.
But it's at that level, right?
The one you were training.
And how curious.
(25:27):
And now I'm doing this conversation,
this is for therapy.
Imagine that we at the office
attend many construction issues,
but we also attend many issues of responsibility
derived from medical acts.
So there's another important part of the office that works with doctors.
(25:53):
You have many passions in one.
Yes, it's curious.
I really like what I do.
The fundamental point that allows me
to carry those moments of stress
and deal with the problem of the other
and with the sad emotions of the other,
is that I really like what I do.
And when you went to school,
(26:15):
where you found your partner,
your partner,
and you met him before your girlfriend?
No, I met Mariana a couple of years before.
I was still in school.
And this is when you met Mateo.
Mateo.
We met in the first semester of college.
(26:38):
And it's very particular because
we entered different groups
in the first semester, first year of law.
We were in separate groups.
Of course, because in Colombia,
they divide the classes into groups
when you go to university
so that the classes are not very numerous.
Of course, in Colombia it doesn't happen.
What happens here, for example,
(27:00):
in other parts of the world,
which are these large lectures of 500 people
and a supervisor,
but they are very small groups of a maximum of 30 people.
That is the educational bet
So there were three groups,
each of 30 people.
Mateo was in group 1, I was in group 2.
And we started to cross in the first semester.
But we never had classes in that first semester.
(27:22):
With Mateo it happened that
when we started, I saw him,
I knew who he was.
We were in the same school.
It was in the third semester.
Where I decided to take some materials from group 2
and some materials from group 1.
And the funny thing was that Mateo
decided to take the same materials from group 1
as me and the same materials from group 2 as me.
(27:44):
He made the same decision.
And then we coincided in the first class,
third semester.
We didn't talk much.
Mateo always went ahead, I went behind.
I listened.
I listen.
I like listening a lot.
And Mateo likes to ask a lot.
So he was the one who did the...
I realized when I told him.
(28:06):
He likes to ask, he likes to think,
he likes to say things.
But I saw it and that's it.
But it's great because they complement each other very well.
Yes.
So in the end,
I remember there was a particular subject
where I didn't take notes.
I said no, no.
The class was religions of the world.
So it was the most fantastic class in the world.
(28:28):
A spectacular class.
Because it was a class,
it was an approach.
Not theological,
but cultural.
Spectacular.
I chose to pay attention.
But there was a final exam
and I said, ready, here you have to study.
And I said...
So I told him...
(28:50):
He gave me Mateo's phone number
and I called him and said, listen,
can you lend me your notes?
He said, ready, come to my house for them.
Give me your address.
When he dictates the address of the house,
I say, man,
you live two blocks from my house.
Mateo ended up living
in the block behind my house,
in the house where I lived
(29:12):
for 15, 20 years, and I didn't recognize it.
I hadn't seen it.
And we lived two, and we lived three blocks,
that is, 200 meters.
So that was like,
where do you live?
I live here, no, I live there.
So I spent that day, I took the notes,
and I remember
that from that day
there wasn't a single exam
(29:34):
of my career. We're talking about seven semesters,
eight semesters, in which I didn't
study with Mateo. We became
a good team.
A very good team. A very good team.
And by chance, I lived next door to my house,
so I invited him to have breakfast.
Mateo became a visiting
guest of my house, which my parents
loved because my parents have always been
very fond of inviting my friends to the house.
(29:56):
So,
that's where my
relationship with Mateo began,
in studying together.
I told them right now, I don't have to look at Mateo
to know what Mateo is thinking
about something that is happening, because
it's the same thing that he's thinking, I'm thinking.
We have the same
education.
So that's the story.
(30:18):
And well, we left the university,
we went to
study in London,
study English. It was a time
that I took out and Mateo, in the end,
ended up getting a job.
And when we came back, we started working.
We didn't link up. Mateo
was linked up for a few months
with a firm of lawyers.
And I said, no,
(30:40):
I'm going to play it.
And here we go, 12 years later,
still playing.
A great story and a good
team. And I imagine that when
you get to meet clients
and get to work with you,
you notice the difference.
We have asked
a lot because Mateo and I
have worked together
(31:02):
in everything. I mean, we really
have a team, we are a team of support
and we have a team that
supports us, but we try to
Mateo, this is not the firm
where Mateo is a partner and has some cases
that Mateo manages and where
Santiago has some cases that Mateo manages, but
by general rule, everything that happens
in our firm is thought
by both, with leadership
(31:24):
of course, it's not
different from what happens
in other places, but Mateo and I have
been very successful in being
both present and aware of what
is happening. So I do
know that many of our clients
are given a tremendous security
that in a meeting two people come
Mateo and Santiago come to
attend the issue because first two
(31:46):
partners come and we
don't have much mystery
to talk a lot
Mateo and I inside a meeting with the
client and see what you think about this
I think about this
I mean, it's a constructive process
all the time, all the time
that sometimes
the clients, one begins to see them
and when we think about it, Mateo and I are here
(32:08):
in a tremendous discussion
about the client issue and that has
always been a good sign.
Well, I see that we already talked about Mateo
but I want to know how was the story
with Mariana because you told me you
met her even before you entered
the university. Yes, Mariana
met me and I didn't meet her.
Mariana and I
Mariana and I were
(32:30):
at a party
where
there are photos
where I was clearly, she
remembers me because I don't remember her.
A photographic record and everything.
Yes, it was a party of
fifteen. A party of fifteen
and we had a suite.
Do you still have the photos? Suite 16, there
I can look for it.
(32:52):
So we met there
but only
we became
boyfriend until 2006.
I was in... But how did you get to know each other?
If they never happened?
Ah, because they were like
the group of friends from school
was a friend of the group
of friends from her school and that
So many groups in Colombia. Yes, yes, that's
(33:14):
that's... No, no, especially in Medellin.
That's the dynamics of Medellin.
There are the groups
of friends from San Ignacio
that get to a group of friends from
the school, they become friends and start
this interactive process.
I think that
we need that in the United States because it's very difficult
to get that couple.
Look, if you think
(33:36):
networking is good here,
you have to go to Medellin, it's good.
Yes, it's good. So, of course,
after two years of friendship
we became boyfriend and girlfriend.
Coincidentally, I was already choosing
to be a lawyer and Mariana
wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, from before
Mariana did have it, Mariana had it
absolutely clear. And we went
to the same law school, I was
(33:58):
one year ahead of her. We studied
during the whole career
and
after we graduated
in 2017 we got married.
When we got married we had
11 years of boyfriends.
11 years of boyfriends.
And we were 7 years old.
Well, I see that you have
very big and interesting challenges
(34:20):
but also a very good team.
Yes, very good. Who to beat
because that's the most important thing.
And do you teach at the university?
Yes, I started
to teach classes
at the University of
Pontificio Bolivariano.
Law school.
And in 2016
I started to teach there
(34:42):
two courses,
which are administrative law courses.
And
over time I specialized in one
and only one teacher
of one of them, which is the course
of state contracts.
Contracts with the state
of regulation of public
contracts in Colombia.
So at the University of Pontificio
(35:04):
Bolivariano I teach that course
since, I repeat, since
2016. And recently
I taught a similar course
at a university
also in Medellin called Eafid
in the pre-law school.
And I have also been able
to teach in some post-grad schools
in administrative law
and recently in arbitration
(35:26):
national arbitration.
That is a subject
that moves you
inside. Being a teacher is the
profession that is more
ungrateful, but more
gratifying.
When things go well.
When you pass your passion to another person.
When things go well.
It is possibly
(35:48):
the deepest
professional satisfaction
that I have been able to feel in my life.
When you achieve after a couple
of months or three months of having a group
and at the moment
you ask the question,
the question you have at that moment
in the office that is breaking your
head, right?
And you throw it away
(36:10):
and you start to see how
the ideas start to work.
That is
absolutely satisfactory.
When you meet
a person after the
final exam, he writes to you or says
teacher, thank you.
That is priceless.
That is priceless.
How do you see students
(36:32):
approach you after class
or after the course and tell you, teacher,
share with me a little your professional
experience, it has happened to you,
let's have a coffee.
A lot. I am a teacher
in both universities
in which I teach. I am a
teacher in a classroom. I am one of these teachers
who come, give their class and leave.
So in classes I
(36:54):
have very little
possibility to interact with
students, but I always try
to make the course
take something more.
When I put a proposal on the
table, I try to make it take a
theoretical proposal, possibly a practical proposal,
my personal position and
the positions that other people have heard
about a topic. But always
(37:16):
from day one of my
classes the invitation is, if
you have a question, whatever it is,
do it.
I like it. In fact, it frustrates me
a lot when I have these classes where
that is the most horrible thing, the pandemic,
one in front of a computer,
25 photos,
there
no, no, no, no, no,
(37:38):
that is not the, that is not the,
but when I have a
question in class, that is, when a person
raises his hand and asks you
or when someone
to the administrative law teacher
says, teacher, what a shame, you just
took this topic, which is possibly
another branch of law,
explain it to me,
I take the time to
(38:00):
stop what I have to stop
to explain to a person something
that is an authentic doubt in a class and that
serves to make an articulation.
I mean, I prefer to stop
from, that I do not have time
to finish the subject, if I
solve an immediate question to a student
of whatever it is, and I have
treated, as much as I have
been able to, to share many
(38:22):
things that they never shared with me.
Right? I was very close
to the teachers, I asked
a lot, I learned a lot
outside of class,
I asked for many additional readings,
I, I had a time when
the teacher was a mere academic
reference, and I would have
loved to have been taught
other things, I would have loved
(38:44):
that someone had told me
this is going to be hard,
this, there is that, a client
has to be planted, one cannot
be servile
with a client, the client has to feel
a certain criteria
or someone who would tell me how to charge,
how to charge, that is the great question
of the professional. We need more teachers
like that, that gives the
(39:06):
reality of how things are.
And fortunately, I am seeing how
those, those
questions, the university
is capturing them and is beginning to
land the subject. Still
very shyly, the Colombians
no,
and I am going to lower the subject,
the, the countries
that are our area,
(39:28):
our, our, our
department. That's how we call those of us from the P.E.
Yes, it's like gentile, right?
In informal gentile, it gives us
shame to see
our professions as a business.
So we are too romanticizing
the idea of the lawyer, our
teachers were still in a generation
of lawyers, we call the great lawyer, but
but not the business behind
(39:50):
the lawyer, because the Colombian
doesn't like to talk about money. Well,
Colombians don't like to talk about money.
Money is a subject that cannot be
talked about, for many reasons. Right?
So, of course,
perfect, you file a lawsuit, you show
the lawsuit, but nobody teaches you how to charge.
How are you going to charge that?
How, how, the business behind TARS,
what is the business behind a firm?
(40:12):
That's what you are facturing, that's how
you show your value of hours, how
that was not taught to us.
And on that subject, I am absolutely
open with my students.
My students tell me,
teacher, I'm going to, I have this
subject, I have this other, I tell them
everything, I am an open book with them.
And are you willing to give those
talks or talk with people outside
(40:34):
Colombia? I mean, now that
there is Zoom or
international conferences?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because, because, I repeat,
I mean, that's
what I would have wanted to see when I was
starting. I mean, I left,
I mean, I left, I
left the school, as we say,
(40:56):
I left the
direct university
to exercise
and you can't imagine
the amount of mistakes I made.
I mean, the things I do today,
I don't do them
by theory,
or because a consultant, except for the
issue of me, that is out there,
right? But the things that happen in my
(41:18):
company is because I kill Mariana,
things have happened to us, and we
left, we came back, we tried, and
then, for me, this topic
of discovering the business behind
professional exercise has been
a truly fascinating
and very challenging topic. I mean,
making a demand is one thing,
presenting a proposal to a client is another
thing.
(42:08):
Yes, of course.
(42:38):
Yes.
(43:08):
Yes.
(43:38):
Yes.
(44:08):
Yes.
(44:38):
Yes.
(45:08):
Yes.
(45:38):
Yes.
(46:08):
Uh-huh.
(46:38):
Thank you.
(47:08):
you
Aaaannnd the video ends with a
nuanced rendition of how it ends.
Wow, we are back with an sweats婆TH shape!
Yeahhh cool dance moves!
(00:23):
the
and
(00:47):
with my co-host. Hello everyone, welcome back to the show. My name is Margarita Ango.
And today we are with Santiago Sierra Ospina. Am I right? You read it perfectly. Perfect.
For the people who are listening, you are a Colombian lawyer and you have come to the
United States for a course in commercial laws. Yes, yes. You work in the firm Posada, Sierra
(01:14):
Ospina and Castaño. Yes sir. And you are a partner. Yes. Sierra is my Sierra.
How do you decide who arrives first, second and third? In the line of partners? Yes.
In the name of the... Look, that's a curious thing. We are a firm of three partners, Mateo Posada,
(01:36):
Santiago Sierra and Mariana Castaño and that order is not for Twitter and that is a product,
even a consultancy. It is the most curious thing in the world. We were... We used to have
a... When we formed ourselves as a firm, suddenly following some guide at the time,
we did not choose to have a firm with the name of the surnames, but we called ourselves ITO,
(02:00):
legal consultancy. The ITO is a word in Spanish that has, let's say, a double connotation
in the legal field, in the construction field. So we called ourselves ITO, legal consultancy and
once a consultant told us, hey, how can you think of having a name that is not the surnames of the
partners? Then in some consulting process that we did, marketing and others, they said yes,
(02:23):
you are right. I mean, the worldwide trend... I see it changing a bit, but the worldwide trend
always in consulting services, in addition to legal consulting, goes with the surnames and these people
came up with a methodology where they basically made some combinations of the orders of the
surnames and based on a methodology they determined that the Posada should go first, first the Sierra
(02:45):
and finally the Castaño. Scientific. Yes, it is scientific. I mean, at this moment I cannot
realize that it was the same criterion, but at the time that was a firm that we hired and someone
gave us the name of the company, the Posada, Sierra and Castaño. Santi, how long has the firm been around? Look, we started
working together, Mateo and I, in 2013, with the subsequent... so working together,
(03:11):
just graduated, you know, just graduated from university, we started working together. They studied
together. We studied together, I will tell you the story in detail right now. Then we established the
firm as the vehicle, the vehicle in 2015 and in 2016 the third partner entered,
which is Marina Castaño. And yes, in fact, Mateo Posada, one of the partners, I met him at
(03:36):
the university, in the first semester of the university and really Mateo is my friend, my brother, my partner,
really it is... I have a pretty close relationship with him, of friendship that unites me. We started with him,
Mateo and I worked, let's say, in the same area of practice and in 2016, Mariana Castaño entered
(03:57):
to join the partner team. Mariana Castaño, I'm looking at the profile here on your page.
Yes, she is the one who is in red wine. Okay, are they three partners? Yes. And the fourth person in the photo?
She is Diana Posada, she worked with us for seven years, we already met her, she was a student,
(04:20):
I was in the university, we linked her as a trainee and she was with us for almost five years working.
She is no longer with us, she went to work. Ah, okay, yes, well, with all the same last names, I didn't know if it was
a brother or someone else. It was a confusion for Twitter. Okay, so this photo is more than seven years old.
This photo is approximately three years old, from the year 2021. The curiosity that I had, more than anything,
(04:47):
is to understand who the fourth person was, because they look very happy, how they are like brothers here,
more than anything, and this is taken in the signature where they are now. We have always wanted to project,
first, that we are a young signature, of young people and also a little bit of the spirit, a little bit of the
happy spirit. I believe that the three of us are happy people, people who value laughter. I am personally
(05:13):
a person who values laughter spaces deeply and I believe that laughter projects people a lot.
And when we took the photos, one of the points was Santiago, how do you want to see me? I want to go out laughing.
I like to go out laughing in all the photos I can. Well, and how do you handle those spaces that sometimes tend to
be stressful within our legal practice? Because yes, laughter is very cool, very important.
(05:37):
But how do you handle those spaces that can sometimes be stressful between such partners, such friends,
such close friends? I have not told you one thing, a detail that is no less, and that is that I tell you,
Posada Sierra Castaño, Mateo Posada, Santiago Sierra, Mariana Castaño. I did not tell you who Mariana Mariana
is, she also has the particularity that she is my wife. So the question that you also bring is a very relevant
(06:00):
question because of course I work with my best friend, I work with my wife. Yes. I think there are two,
there are several points and that is why I wanted to highlight the issue of joy or good energy,
good vibes that we try to have, to always have, but it is undeniable that the professional
scenario of ours is supremely interesting. What can I tell you? I know my partners as I do not know
(06:22):
any other person in the world. So I am able to travel through stressful moments,
through difficult moments, towards third parties and towards me. And since I know that in the end
there is a person I know behind, that I know who moves her, that I know who is looking for her,
who feeds her, who does not feed her, who projects her, who inhibits her, well, that allows me to
(06:46):
go through very easily through those unpleasant moments. Mariana runs the area of practice of
real estate, of tax law, in general private projects, hotel and others. I have zero
connection with that area. They are working together. Let's say that we are within the firm,
but let's say we have areas of different practice where I do not intervene, I intervene very little
(07:10):
because of the type of specialty. With Mateo I direct the area of retail and arbitration and I can say
that in that area the fluidity with which things are handled is superior precisely because of that,
because Mateo and I studied together, we have worked together, we have trained almost in the same
time, so you would be surprised how you get to have, let's say, the mental connection with the other person
(07:31):
to be thinking that he is, to know that he is thinking at a meeting at a moment. So let's say
that there is a moment of connection and very cool synchronicity that allows me to manage
adequately those moments of stress. Also because if we have had and we have put this on
express, it is that there is an absolute alignment of interests. There are people who will not really understand
what kind of work you do. Why would it be that it is stressful? Is it for time, is it the type of work
(07:58):
or is it a lot of work? One, amount of work, always, that is, the law firms are always
working with an immense amount of work, we are always working against the clock, it does not matter
the area, you are always working against the clock because you have a closure in an M&A, because you have
(08:19):
a contract to deliver in a corporate area, because you have a license to assist in the real estate
area, because you have a term to eradicate a writing, a response, a demand, a request,
and those are terms that are defeated, they do not open again, they are preclusive. So you always
have one, a factor of determined time and two, because finally, I am going to raise it from my
(08:44):
practical area, the litigation and the contractual litigation that we usually have
has a negative, difficult emotional burden, possibly of frustrations, of guilt, of errors,
of imputations, of responsibility, of egos, right? Of egos. So let's say that the work of the lawyer
(09:09):
is not properly, or at least our work, is not in a scenario favorable to happy, happy emotions,
but it always tends to have a difficult burden, although one enjoys so much that in the end
there is a satisfaction with whatever you do.
That kind of work seems to be quite frustrating, quite stressful. How does it come to a lawyer
(09:36):
working in that environment, to be married and working with someone of the same branch,
well, not working together, but the same work, I imagine that she also has her stress,
at one point she brings her home, there is a moment when they simply do not speak of the law,
(09:57):
then they do something else, of diversion or something.
Look, that's the big quiz of the subject, when Mariana became a partner of the firm,
in fact that was an idea of Mateo, my partner, that was not my initiative, but I saw it,
I saw it very well. The first moment was very, very, very useful, because in the office space
(10:23):
I managed to share many spaces with her in a week, go out to eat one day, see each other, talk.
So let's say that takes away too much pressure on the weekend, which is always something that is,
that is, you have to be giving up the office all the time to dedicate yourself to your girlfriend
on the weekend and the plans and that, then let's say that having her on the weekend was,
it allowed the weekends to be a little more peaceful.
(10:44):
We got married relatively young, young, I had, when I got married I was 28 years old,
Mariana was 25 years old, and a little bit like when you get married, I do not think that
28 years is a time to make a decision on a similar issue, but then it is taken,
because society demands it, because there is really an idea of what is right and what is useful,
but there are many things that one does not talk about, and many of the things that Mariana and I did not talk about
(11:10):
was how we were going to behave in our relationship as partners, and at the beginning it is taken,
the subject is ignored, it is the pink elephant in the room that we do not talk about because it is there,
and yes, it is, I mean, I already say it with total, it is difficult, it is complicated.
Especially if they do not agree.
Yes, of course, then that is the point, one thing is not to agree with your partner in something,
(11:35):
and that has a management way, another thing is not to agree with your partner, right?
And more when maybe this has in the background a relationship with this,
I am pointing my hands here as if I were talking to Mariana,
when Mariana partner and Mariana wife come to Santiago taking a decision as a partner that is different from their criteria as a husband,
(12:01):
that is complicated, in the last few years, I can tell you that it is more or less a year and a half,
we have had very serious conversations in relation to the separation of the office and the house,
I had a particular condition, and that is that I was not able in the pandemic to join the work from home,
I am not able to work from home.
(12:22):
Oh, I understand you.
I am not able, Mariana is able, but I am not able,
I mean, the pandemic, the strict moments of lockdown in Colombia were like four months, more or less three months,
I fulfilled them, I was the most careful, the world works from home,
but immediately the law enforcement officers let us go back to the office,
(12:44):
I was the first to pass my permit, I went to the office,
I started to come back because I have found a utility in separating what happens in my house from what happens in my office,
and I can assure you that I work every day under the idea of not having to arrive at the mail,
that I am not able to leave the writing, that I am not able to do the sentence, that I am not able to read,
(13:06):
I prefer to arrive an hour later at my house than to take me to work from home,
that was the first step, and the second was that we had to be very aware that breakfasts,
that meals, that maybe lunch, that the space on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays,
was not a space to solve work issues, that costs, that is difficult,
(13:30):
that is not as easy as making an agreement, that costs a lot,
and also with some flexibility to be able to say, ready, there is an important issue that we have to talk about, yes or yes,
but the issue has been, after several headaches,
to have difficult conversations and to make agreements that are fulfilled,
(13:53):
and that has helped us to improve in that space,
now I repeat, more aligned with impossible interests,
because I know that Mariana is there in the firm working, leaving everything to get a project ahead,
she already knows that I am there, giving everything, fighting to get a project ahead,
(14:14):
and we think of Mateo, our partner,
so when that happens, when I am absolutely sure that my partner and my partner are in the same line as me,
the autonomy flows, that is, ready, you are there,
I do not have to be on top of you, what are you doing there, if you are working, if you are billing, if everything,
you do not arrive at the meetings of partners, you say, oh, well, well, how are you doing, or how is Mateo doing, right?
(14:40):
So one facilitates that issue, but Kelvin, this that I am telling you is with blood, it is a...
But I understand you, because my first wife did not understand my career,
that sometimes I am sleeping in the office, I am traveling from one side to the other,
sometimes I have to respond to messages at midnight,
I think it is very difficult, especially in the law career,
(15:04):
that your partner does not understand your work,
and well, my wife now understood very well, because her brother worked in this field,
and she knew that he traveled, sometimes he took care of his children,
and I think it was very important to have a partner who not only understands that, but accepts it,
(15:26):
understands that this is part of the job, and sometimes one does not have control,
and I do not imagine how a person can have a boyfriend or girlfriend who does not understand the job,
does not support the job.
But what do you think then in that sense, because it is one thing that we were talking about,
Kelvin, before you get to it, if it is us as lawyers,
(15:47):
is it better to have a partner who is also a lawyer or not?
Oh my God, look, without a doubt, when your partner knows what you are dedicated to,
the industry in which you are, and the renunciations that you have to make in favor of another type of earnings,
(16:09):
I think there is a greater capacity to achieve those agreements.
I ask this question a lot with Mariana, I ask myself,
today by today, what profession does not work like we work?
I know that lawyers work a lot, a little bit too, we have a business scheme based on exploitation,
(16:30):
it is a reality, the firm of lawyers, yes, this is a topic that is already being worked on.
Well, it is also a burden that one puts on himself, right?
But also, but also for others, exactly, but also,
the firm would not demand you to work the number of hours that you work per week,
if the people were not willing to do that,
because they believe that they have to go through that because they are young to make a path in the world of lawyers,
(16:52):
that is a vicious circle, and I repeat the initial idea,
that it was not to destroy our industry, and we were missing it,
but I wonder who is not, who can really get home after a day of work and do nothing?
I circumscribe it, I am going to give you examples,
because I say, you have to be the operator of a machine, someone who operates the machine for 8 hours and turns off the machine and leaves,
(17:18):
and another comes and operates, and because the rest, at least in all professions that are at least intellectual,
or of intellectual predominance to the material,
really the work is taken home, if one wants, the whole work is taken home,
but I have no doubt that having your partner aligned in interests, that at the end of the day,
(17:40):
I return to the same, to the alignment of interests,
and I do not know, Margarita, if that is necessarily a matter of professions, as if of personalities,
and at the end of the day I repeat, in the scenario of a couple,
if your interests are not aligned, there is no way to save that,
(18:03):
but I did see it in the Bible when you told me, because even, I am going to tell you something,
with Mariana sometimes we have to make the claim of her,
and she is giving us her hand, she to me and I to her,
there are whole weeks in which one arrives late,
as I chose not to work at home, then I work at home, in the office I arrive late at home,
(18:28):
sometimes the claim arrives, as you see, we are already passing a limit,
there comes the having the things very clear, the ideas very clear,
the alignment very clear, the common goals very clear,
and knowing in advance what the renunciations are,
look, we want to buy the apartment we want, then we have to work more,
(18:53):
I will take longer to arrive, or I can arrive every day at 6 pm at home,
I get a job like that, but I have to live in some conditions,
I think that is to live in consequence with the goals that people are set,
and I am not saying what is the standard of goal,
that is measured case by case, person to person.
(19:15):
Well, and they have activities that they realize separately, that have nothing to do with work,
I mean, I don't know, you like to play tennis, or you have some other hobby that helps you,
maybe also to release a little that energy,
Yes, yes, let's say that I, for health reasons,
for about 5 years I have tried to be very active, sportively,
(19:38):
and specifically jogging, I found in the jogging a very effective physical activity,
I think that is the best way to spend time,
I can dedicate time to a physical activity,
I distribute my time between my work, my house, Mariana, the jogging,
(20:02):
as a physical activity, and my family, talking about my dad, my mom, and my sisters,
usually like the four pillars of my life.
I have been doing this for 5 years and not for 5 years.
But have you always wanted to be a lawyer?
Because it seems that you have had, you have built something great,
I mean, with your partner, with your wife,
(20:24):
but has it always been your dream to be a lawyer, something that you have dreamed of?
No, I remember a lot, because in that time of school I wanted to be a doctor.
A doctor, a doctor, who also has a good career.
I think that is one of the real, I think that is the real profession,
I owe medicine a lot to medicine, and to the doctors,
because I found some wonderful doctors,
(20:46):
who make you feel deep admiration for a person.
If you ask me, people I admire, certain doctors,
not all, not the doctors, but certain doctors, because they are...
Not my dentist.
They are powerful.
I wanted to be a doctor, some issues did not let me make that quiet decision.
In school there was a very particular thing,
(21:08):
that there was the representative of the groups, right?
I always, from very early on,
I was like a representative figure, let's say,
of democratic events within the school, right?
Like the group representations and this.
And in my school something very curious happened,
and that is that in my school there was a disciplinary procedure.
(21:30):
When a student made a mistake, the sanction was not imposed by the rector,
the sanction was imposed by a committee,
a committee of teachers, the psychologist, the school, the rector,
and the representative.
My God.
And the representative of the representatives.
So it was a curious thing, because I, without wanting to,
(21:51):
was the damn lawyer of all the bad guys in the school.
Right? Of all the bad guys who did something,
that was taken from that committee, which was usually the Falstons.
Who were against it?
The psychologist in my school was a thing, it was horrible.
So I started to develop certain,
with a certain sensitivity, by parameters of justice.
(22:13):
Right? I said, here, if this character does this,
and this has this sanction planned,
then let's apply this sanction, and nothing more than this sanction,
and nothing less than this sanction.
But please, before taking into account the sanction,
let's take into account that here too,
this manual of coexistence has some causes there of attenuation,
it was the first time he committed it, asked for a fine, recognized it.
(22:35):
I mean, I tried to really adjust the punishment that it was.
Well, I was talking, I was 11 years old, 12 years old, 13 years old,
and I was already a lawyer.
I was already technically a lawyer,
before an organizational body with power,
so that a person would be processed adequately.
And you came from a family of lawyers?
Zero. It's that I am the first generation of lawyers in my family.
(22:57):
I am the first lawyer.
In fact, in no way, in my lineage,
not for my mother, not for my mother,
from the genealogical tree there is a lawyer.
So I told you, I wanted to be a doctor,
but I started having this story of representing others,
of advocating for others,
and I had a third degree, and it is that for me,
(23:18):
always, I did very well with areas related to architecture.
Architecture, okay.
So in school I always like, not the arts,
but the technical drawing, I liked it.
In school there was a professional path to architecture,
I took those courses,
so I always was, I debated between being an architect,
(23:39):
being a doctor, being a lawyer.
To design buildings, houses, buildings.
Yes, buildings, in general buildings, urbanism,
I liked it, and today I love it.
Today you are a lawyer for the construction convention?
I am a lawyer, basically,
I have a speciality in public law,
(24:00):
another a master's degree in damage law,
and I exercise in litigation, arbitration litigation.
Many of them, the vast majority of them,
in relation to construction issues.
Look at the curious, right?
So I work, my life was organized,
and I started working with architects and civil engineers,
and those are my fundamental clients.
(24:23):
So when you make the decision to list where you are going to,
what you are going to do,
I discarded medicine,
I had architecture there,
but when I went to present,
I only went to the law school.
I did not have a plan B,
law school.
And I went to the law school,
and to a single law school.
(24:45):
I repeat, I did not go without plan B.
And that first year, you loved it,
you saw that this was for you.
That was love at first sight.
And did you have doctors and architects at home?
Yes, we had doctors.
In fact, my uncle was one of the most important figures in my life,
because he was my uncle, my dear uncle.
(25:06):
He was a doctor, I admire him deeply.
And I think he was part of the inspiration.
So my uncle was the one who found out that I was seeing in natural sciences
the circulatory system, and he brought me a cow's heart,
and he opened it with me, and he showed me.
But it's at that level, right?
The one you were training.
And how curious.
(25:27):
And now I'm doing this conversation,
this is for therapy.
Imagine that we at the office
attend many construction issues,
but we also attend many issues of responsibility
derived from medical acts.
So there's another important part of the office that works with doctors.
(25:53):
You have many passions in one.
Yes, it's curious.
I really like what I do.
The fundamental point that allows me
to carry those moments of stress
and deal with the problem of the other
and with the sad emotions of the other,
is that I really like what I do.
And when you went to school,
(26:15):
where you found your partner,
your partner,
and you met him before your girlfriend?
No, I met Mariana a couple of years before.
I was still in school.
And this is when you met Mateo.
Mateo.
We met in the first semester of college.
(26:38):
And it's very particular because
we entered different groups
in the first semester, first year of law.
We were in separate groups.
Of course, because in Colombia,
they divide the classes into groups
when you go to university
so that the classes are not very numerous.
Of course, in Colombia it doesn't happen.
What happens here, for example,
(27:00):
in other parts of the world,
which are these large lectures of 500 people
and a supervisor,
but they are very small groups of a maximum of 30 people.
That is the educational bet
So there were three groups,
each of 30 people.
Mateo was in group 1, I was in group 2.
And we started to cross in the first semester.
But we never had classes in that first semester.
(27:22):
With Mateo it happened that
when we started, I saw him,
I knew who he was.
We were in the same school.
It was in the third semester.
Where I decided to take some materials from group 2
and some materials from group 1.
And the funny thing was that Mateo
decided to take the same materials from group 1
as me and the same materials from group 2 as me.
(27:44):
He made the same decision.
And then we coincided in the first class,
third semester.
We didn't talk much.
Mateo always went ahead, I went behind.
I listened.
I listen.
I like listening a lot.
And Mateo likes to ask a lot.
So he was the one who did the...
I realized when I told him.
(28:06):
He likes to ask, he likes to think,
he likes to say things.
But I saw it and that's it.
But it's great because they complement each other very well.
Yes.
So in the end,
I remember there was a particular subject
where I didn't take notes.
I said no, no.
The class was religions of the world.
So it was the most fantastic class in the world.
(28:28):
A spectacular class.
Because it was a class,
it was an approach.
Not theological,
but cultural.
Spectacular.
I chose to pay attention.
But there was a final exam
and I said, ready, here you have to study.
And I said...
So I told him...
(28:50):
He gave me Mateo's phone number
and I called him and said, listen,
can you lend me your notes?
He said, ready, come to my house for them.
Give me your address.
When he dictates the address of the house,
I say, man,
you live two blocks from my house.
Mateo ended up living
in the block behind my house,
in the house where I lived
(29:12):
for 15, 20 years, and I didn't recognize it.
I hadn't seen it.
And we lived two, and we lived three blocks,
that is, 200 meters.
So that was like,
where do you live?
I live here, no, I live there.
So I spent that day, I took the notes,
and I remember
that from that day
there wasn't a single exam
(29:34):
of my career. We're talking about seven semesters,
eight semesters, in which I didn't
study with Mateo. We became
a good team.
A very good team. A very good team.
And by chance, I lived next door to my house,
so I invited him to have breakfast.
Mateo became a visiting
guest of my house, which my parents
loved because my parents have always been
very fond of inviting my friends to the house.
(29:56):
So,
that's where my
relationship with Mateo began,
in studying together.
I told them right now, I don't have to look at Mateo
to know what Mateo is thinking
about something that is happening, because
it's the same thing that he's thinking, I'm thinking.
We have the same
education.
So that's the story.
(30:18):
And well, we left the university,
we went to
study in London,
study English. It was a time
that I took out and Mateo, in the end,
ended up getting a job.
And when we came back, we started working.
We didn't link up. Mateo
was linked up for a few months
with a firm of lawyers.
And I said, no,
(30:40):
I'm going to play it.
And here we go, 12 years later,
still playing.
A great story and a good
team. And I imagine that when
you get to meet clients
and get to work with you,
you notice the difference.
We have asked
a lot because Mateo and I
have worked together
(31:02):
in everything. I mean, we really
have a team, we are a team of support
and we have a team that
supports us, but we try to
Mateo, this is not the firm
where Mateo is a partner and has some cases
that Mateo manages and where
Santiago has some cases that Mateo manages, but
by general rule, everything that happens
in our firm is thought
by both, with leadership
(31:24):
of course, it's not
different from what happens
in other places, but Mateo and I have
been very successful in being
both present and aware of what
is happening. So I do
know that many of our clients
are given a tremendous security
that in a meeting two people come
Mateo and Santiago come to
attend the issue because first two
(31:46):
partners come and we
don't have much mystery
to talk a lot
Mateo and I inside a meeting with the
client and see what you think about this
I think about this
I mean, it's a constructive process
all the time, all the time
that sometimes
the clients, one begins to see them
and when we think about it, Mateo and I are here
(32:08):
in a tremendous discussion
about the client issue and that has
always been a good sign.
Well, I see that we already talked about Mateo
but I want to know how was the story
with Mariana because you told me you
met her even before you entered
the university. Yes, Mariana
met me and I didn't meet her.
Mariana and I
Mariana and I were
(32:30):
at a party
where
there are photos
where I was clearly, she
remembers me because I don't remember her.
A photographic record and everything.
Yes, it was a party of
fifteen. A party of fifteen
and we had a suite.
Do you still have the photos? Suite 16, there
I can look for it.
(32:52):
So we met there
but only
we became
boyfriend until 2006.
I was in... But how did you get to know each other?
If they never happened?
Ah, because they were like
the group of friends from school
was a friend of the group
of friends from her school and that
So many groups in Colombia. Yes, yes, that's
(33:14):
that's... No, no, especially in Medellin.
That's the dynamics of Medellin.
There are the groups
of friends from San Ignacio
that get to a group of friends from
the school, they become friends and start
this interactive process.
I think that
we need that in the United States because it's very difficult
to get that couple.
Look, if you think
(33:36):
networking is good here,
you have to go to Medellin, it's good.
Yes, it's good. So, of course,
after two years of friendship
we became boyfriend and girlfriend.
Coincidentally, I was already choosing
to be a lawyer and Mariana
wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, from before
Mariana did have it, Mariana had it
absolutely clear. And we went
to the same law school, I was
(33:58):
one year ahead of her. We studied
during the whole career
and
after we graduated
in 2017 we got married.
When we got married we had
11 years of boyfriends.
11 years of boyfriends.
And we were 7 years old.
Well, I see that you have
very big and interesting challenges
(34:20):
but also a very good team.
Yes, very good. Who to beat
because that's the most important thing.
And do you teach at the university?
Yes, I started
to teach classes
at the University of
Pontificio Bolivariano.
Law school.
And in 2016
I started to teach there
(34:42):
two courses,
which are administrative law courses.
And
over time I specialized in one
and only one teacher
of one of them, which is the course
of state contracts.
Contracts with the state
of regulation of public
contracts in Colombia.
So at the University of Pontificio
(35:04):
Bolivariano I teach that course
since, I repeat, since
2016. And recently
I taught a similar course
at a university
also in Medellin called Eafid
in the pre-law school.
And I have also been able
to teach in some post-grad schools
in administrative law
and recently in arbitration
(35:26):
national arbitration.
That is a subject
that moves you
inside. Being a teacher is the
profession that is more
ungrateful, but more
gratifying.
When things go well.
When you pass your passion to another person.
When things go well.
It is possibly
(35:48):
the deepest
professional satisfaction
that I have been able to feel in my life.
When you achieve after a couple
of months or three months of having a group
and at the moment
you ask the question,
the question you have at that moment
in the office that is breaking your
head, right?
And you throw it away
(36:10):
and you start to see how
the ideas start to work.
That is
absolutely satisfactory.
When you meet
a person after the
final exam, he writes to you or says
teacher, thank you.
That is priceless.
That is priceless.
How do you see students
(36:32):
approach you after class
or after the course and tell you, teacher,
share with me a little your professional
experience, it has happened to you,
let's have a coffee.
A lot. I am a teacher
in both universities
in which I teach. I am a
teacher in a classroom. I am one of these teachers
who come, give their class and leave.
So in classes I
(36:54):
have very little
possibility to interact with
students, but I always try
to make the course
take something more.
When I put a proposal on the
table, I try to make it take a
theoretical proposal, possibly a practical proposal,
my personal position and
the positions that other people have heard
about a topic. But always
(37:16):
from day one of my
classes the invitation is, if
you have a question, whatever it is,
do it.
I like it. In fact, it frustrates me
a lot when I have these classes where
that is the most horrible thing, the pandemic,
one in front of a computer,
25 photos,
there
no, no, no, no, no,
(37:38):
that is not the, that is not the,
but when I have a
question in class, that is, when a person
raises his hand and asks you
or when someone
to the administrative law teacher
says, teacher, what a shame, you just
took this topic, which is possibly
another branch of law,
explain it to me,
I take the time to
(38:00):
stop what I have to stop
to explain to a person something
that is an authentic doubt in a class and that
serves to make an articulation.
I mean, I prefer to stop
from, that I do not have time
to finish the subject, if I
solve an immediate question to a student
of whatever it is, and I have
treated, as much as I have
been able to, to share many
(38:22):
things that they never shared with me.
Right? I was very close
to the teachers, I asked
a lot, I learned a lot
outside of class,
I asked for many additional readings,
I, I had a time when
the teacher was a mere academic
reference, and I would have
loved to have been taught
other things, I would have loved
(38:44):
that someone had told me
this is going to be hard,
this, there is that, a client
has to be planted, one cannot
be servile
with a client, the client has to feel
a certain criteria
or someone who would tell me how to charge,
how to charge, that is the great question
of the professional. We need more teachers
like that, that gives the
(39:06):
reality of how things are.
And fortunately, I am seeing how
those, those
questions, the university
is capturing them and is beginning to
land the subject. Still
very shyly, the Colombians
no,
and I am going to lower the subject,
the, the countries
that are our area,
(39:28):
our, our, our
department. That's how we call those of us from the P.E.
Yes, it's like gentile, right?
In informal gentile, it gives us
shame to see
our professions as a business.
So we are too romanticizing
the idea of the lawyer, our
teachers were still in a generation
of lawyers, we call the great lawyer, but
but not the business behind
(39:50):
the lawyer, because the Colombian
doesn't like to talk about money. Well,
Colombians don't like to talk about money.
Money is a subject that cannot be
talked about, for many reasons. Right?
So, of course,
perfect, you file a lawsuit, you show
the lawsuit, but nobody teaches you how to charge.
How are you going to charge that?
How, how, the business behind TARS,
what is the business behind a firm?
(40:12):
That's what you are facturing, that's how
you show your value of hours, how
that was not taught to us.
And on that subject, I am absolutely
open with my students.
My students tell me,
teacher, I'm going to, I have this
subject, I have this other, I tell them
everything, I am an open book with them.
And are you willing to give those
talks or talk with people outside
(40:34):
Colombia? I mean, now that
there is Zoom or
international conferences?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because, because, I repeat,
I mean, that's
what I would have wanted to see when I was
starting. I mean, I left,
I mean, I left, I
left the school, as we say,
(40:56):
I left the
direct university
to exercise
and you can't imagine
the amount of mistakes I made.
I mean, the things I do today,
I don't do them
by theory,
or because a consultant, except for the
issue of me, that is out there,
right? But the things that happen in my
(41:18):
company is because I kill Mariana,
things have happened to us, and we
left, we came back, we tried, and
then, for me, this topic
of discovering the business behind
professional exercise has been
a truly fascinating
and very challenging topic. I mean,
making a demand is one thing,
presenting a proposal to a client is another
thing.
(42:08):
Yes, of course.
(42:38):
Yes.
(43:08):
Yes.
(43:38):
Yes.
(44:08):
Yes.
(44:38):
Yes.
(45:08):
Yes.
(45:38):
Yes.
(46:08):
Uh-huh.
(46:38):
Thank you.
(47:08):
you
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