October 3, 2024 • 42 mins
SPANISH BONUS EPISODE
En este episodio, charlamos con una apasionada abogada peruana, Caterina Miró Quesada, que trabajó en prestigiosas firmas en Perú y Estados Unidos. Comenzó su carrera con una orientación o tutoría mínima. Ella comparte su inspiradora historia de cómo superó estos desafíos, adoptó nuevos recursos para profundizar su conocimiento y creció en su campo. Inicialmente soñaba con una carrera en comunicaciones, pero nunca imaginó convertirse en abogada, pero su camino ha estado lleno de una pasión y dedicación inesperadas al derecho. Únase a nosotros para una conversación inspiradora sobre la perseverancia, el aprendizaje y los giros y vueltas de las trayectorias profesionales.
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In this episode, we chat with a passionate Peruvian attorney, Caterina Miró Quesada, whose worked at prestigious firms in Peru and in the United States. She started her career with minimal guidance or mentorship. She shares her inspiring story of overcoming these challenges, embracing new resources to deepen her knowledge, and growing in her field. Initially dreaming of a career in communications, she never imagined becoming an attorney, but her journey has been one of unexpected passion and dedication to the law. Join us for an inspiring discussion about perseverance, learning, and the twists and turns of career paths.
Guest Info:
Caterina Miró Quesada Samanez, Attorney in Peru and the U.S.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caterina-miró-quesada-samanez/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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We are returning to the show, the favorite show of the Latinos.
And today we are with a special guest.
My name is Evi Ballena.
And today I am with two very special women.
(00:46):
Hello everyone, again on the show.
My name is Margarita Arango and we are here with our super guest,
extremely special, I must confess,
who is Katerina Miroquesada.
Please, Kate, introduce yourself.
Hello, how are you?
First of all, thank you very much, Kellevi and Margarita, for the invitation.
It's a pleasure to be here.
How good, how good, finally having you on the show.
(01:08):
Well, it was a bit difficult because you live in Peru,
but we picked you up here in Washington and we take advantage of being here.
Well, thank you for participating, really.
It is very important for us to be able to count on you.
No, thank you.
I am happy. Washington is my second home, so I am very happy to be here.
Well, as a lawyer in Peru, you started
(01:29):
a study at Chicopa and from there to some point you went to study at an LLM in Houston.
Yes.
There was a reason for that, because you had been there for a long time in that study.
You took your LLM and it was for the purpose of studying an international branch or another branch.
(01:51):
Yes, well, I worked at Chicopa for almost 12 years,
since I started as a trainee, a graduate student while I was studying at university.
And at that time I worked in the regulatory area,
seeing electricity regulation, which is what I liked at that time.
And that's why I decided to do my master's degree in Houston,
because in fact I did a master's degree in energy law, environmental law.
(02:14):
And already at that time I was lucky that when I finished university,
after a long time, the first case came in the CIDAID against Peru.
It was a case that was from a transmission line.
So I was very lucky because the background of the matter,
being a transmission line, included me in the team.
And that case, the Chicopa study was co-counseling of White and Case.
(02:38):
So that was my first approach with the international arbitrage
and then also with an international signature.
At that time, just finishing university, it opened a new world for me.
And I went to do my master's degree, but always thinking about continuing to devote myself to energy law.
But many cases began to come against Peru,
(02:58):
continuing to work with White and Case.
And there I realized that I liked international arbitrage
and also combining it with energy practice.
I think that now that I think about it, I appreciate that it was like that.
The first to have had a substantial specialty
and that that has led me to work in arbitrage.
(03:19):
Then I have already been able to see other types of infrastructure,
roads, ports, but I always think it is useful to have a specialty
or have had a few years practicing in that.
So that was a bit of the way.
My idea at that time was to have this specialty, to have energy,
but it was given naturally to return to Peru and continue working with White and Case.
(03:44):
And in fact, that's how I ended up working in White and Case a few years later.
But you also lived in Washington for a while, right Kate?
Yes, first of all, in fact, after returning from my master's degree in Peru,
I continued in this job for about three years.
Then I went to Mexico, to the office of Mexico, of White and Case, for two years.
And then I was here in Washington for four more years in White and Case.
(04:09):
A question because not everyone who is listening to this program will know what international arbitrage is.
For a person who does not understand or has never known what international arbitrage is,
especially in the Latino community, what is it about?
Because we are in Peru, in Houston, in Mexico, I see that you have also passed the bar in New York.
(04:33):
I mean, you are everywhere.
What is international arbitrage?
In fact, yes, I know that people from many places listen to us.
There I do believe that being Peruvian I am lucky that in Peru it is quite well known or from the university what arbitrage is.
Because in Peru we have mandatory regulation in contracts with the state of arbitrage.
(04:55):
But let's say that if we want to explain it in simple terms, it is an alternative mechanism for resolving conflicts
or, let's say, a different option to what the judicial power would come to be.
And in this case, instead of resolving the controversy of judges, they resolve it in what we call arbitrage.
In most cases, or in many cases, they have a specialty in the matter that is being resolved.
(05:21):
And well, we can talk about the pros and cons, but as you say, it has a crucial aspect of this international vision
that allows you to work on different topics.
Let's say boring, it will never be, you always see different things.
And that's what caught my attention when I saw and had the opportunity to have this first experience
(05:42):
of working with an international study, to see really how things were done.
Although I worked in a study, one of the best in Peru at that time, there was very little experience in international arbitrage as such.
And not so much in the background, but even the logistics.
For me, everyone opened up and I think that the bitumen will be able to know perfectly what it implies.
(06:04):
For example, from an audience, from filing, all the logistics, the Peruvian studies were not prepared for that at that time.
So that's where I realized and said I want to learn more about this.
And in fact, that's why at one point, already having the master's degree, I said,
I think that if I really want to specialize in this, I want to work the opportunity to work in a study abroad.
(06:27):
That is, a person who works in Peru as a lawyer, it is very different from a person in the United States or in London or something like that,
because there are different branches of law, but also different styles of how to work.
Yes, different styles. Well, first of all, Peru is civil law.
And here it is like a world.
But I think I have evolved, definitely when I was in university, which had been for a while.
(06:53):
And now I see it, for example, in my time, which thing would have delighted me, the M.U.T.s did not exist.
Or they were very, very new. I never had the opportunity to participate in a M.U.T.
Now I think that gives you tools that we did not give at that time.
The teaching has changed.
I mean, I remember my classes at the university in which the teacher simply stopped for three hours to talk.
There was no participation of the students as there is here.
(07:18):
There was not so much debate or so much opinion.
I think that generations are lucky to be exposed to really be like if they were working,
or as if they were really living the cases and it gives them a preparation that we definitely did not have before.
Total. In fact, Kate was accompanying American University in the last M.U.T. court that she did in Spanish as a judge.
(07:46):
No, an incredible experience. I have already participated in M.U.T.s before and I am impressed by the quality of the students.
For me, sometimes I forgot that I was in a M.U.T. and I really said that as if it were a real trial.
It is a good first approximation for students of how a real practice will be in the area that they like,
(08:11):
which in this case is being international arbitration, but there are M.U.T.s in different areas of law.
Definitely. And I think that suddenly I am already moving forward and then we can talk about it.
But I think that one suddenly has an idea of what the right is, what they want to specialize in,
and then when you get to the field, so to speak, you realize that things are different.
(08:32):
And that is not good or bad. I think that each one has their personality.
There will be people who like to do reports, research, other people love to be in the hearing
and make the allegations, other people maybe not so much. And there is no good or bad.
I think that each one discovers what they like to do, what is good, what can be complemented,
(08:54):
and above all, working in a team that I think is fundamental.
It is a good observation because you did not always want to be a lawyer.
No.
What?
No.
That is, when you started, you were in school, what was a dream?
Just in a previous conversation I told you that I remembered when I applied for the master's degree,
(09:19):
what do you have to write in the letter?
I remember that the first line was, I never thought I was going to be a lawyer.
And it was like that. And that's a bit like what you have in your head and what you think you like.
And then you realize what things are like.
Since I have memories of when I was a girl, I thought I wanted to study communications.
Yes, that is communication. At that time I thought I wanted to dedicate myself to advertising and marketing.
(09:44):
I don't know remembering where that came from because nobody in my family at that time or close was dedicated to that.
To represent clients or companies or stars.
Now thinking, no, no, no, as a commercial designer, right?
I mean, the slogan of Coca-Cola or a product, right?
I think I maybe saw television and said, this looks incredible, right?
(10:07):
And well, in fact, I entered university in communications sciences in Lima.
In the university I was in, you had to do a year of general studies, regardless of the degree you took.
And then I entered and I literally took two classes in communications sciences to say, no, this is not for me.
(10:29):
And of course, it was a difficult decision.
I had been thinking for at least five or six years at that time, this is what I want to do, this is what I want to study.
And as I say, two classes were based on me. At that time I said, and now what?
Because it's not that I had a right in my head, there were lawyers in my family.
(10:52):
In fact, my sister, who is also a lawyer today, always said that she wanted to study law.
Also internationally?
Well, now she also lives here in Washington and sees a bit of American law.
In part, yes, I don't see arbitration, but yes.
And then, at that moment, I said, now what? Because I said, I don't want to study anything that has to do with homero.
(11:12):
And then I had psychology or law.
And curiously, at the university they had organized a congress, I think it was a criminal law or civil law, and I signed up.
And I got into the congress without knowing anything, I sat down and said, this is interesting, well, it will be law.
And so it was.
And doing the comparison, literally, I spent a law class, my first law class, and I said, this is what I like.
(11:37):
So, to return a bit to the comparison of saying, I think it's okay to change your opinion on the road, it's okay...
I'm not going to say wrong, because finally one begins to take the decision you have with the information you have at that moment.
But the same is what you want to dedicate to the same right.
I think that, for example, I have always worked in a law firm, national and international, I have worked in a company.
(12:03):
But my sister works in a company, she has worked in a firm.
And I think that sometimes you don't have to close to what you want to do, right?
Suddenly, well, Margarita, suddenly you are closer to that decision of what you wanted to see,
if the state, if private, if company, if firm.
And sometimes we have the idea that we want to work in a firm and we want to make this path.
(12:27):
And it's hard for us to make the decision to say, suddenly this is not for me, suddenly this is not what I like,
and suddenly I would do much better in a company or I would do much better in the state.
So I think that my advice, and looking back, I think you have to be a little more flexible, right?
To adapt and see what is best for me.
(12:48):
And that each one has their own path and that sometimes it is inevitable to compare with the rest,
but I think we must avoid doing it, right?
Because each one is different and the times of each one are different,
and each path is special and equally valuable.
Well, I must confess one thing now in the podcast.
One of the reasons why we decided to start this initiative is precisely to show
(13:14):
the practitioners in law, the people who want to study law,
or those who are currently thinking about what to do with their lives,
that there is not a single path.
And that it is true, we must be flexible, we must be open to opportunities,
but we must not be closed to the fact that things have to happen in a certain way.
(13:36):
That for international students who are currently in situations of looking for work,
to see what is the next step they must take in their professional career,
this is a safe space.
Or for someone who is doing communications, they say, well, I want to be a lawyer.
Or if not, someone who wants to be a lawyer may want to do communications,
(13:59):
because it is also similar, you have to communicate a message to a client.
And it also ends up happening a lot that my colleagues of my generation,
who graduated from law, do not leave, right?
Because it is the same, they still believed that at that time they wanted to be lawyers.
But I do think that the formation of lawyers, sometimes the non-lawyers do not understand,
(14:21):
but I do think that it gives you a different way of thinking, a way of seeing things.
So you do not end up dedicating yourself to that, but definitely, right?
I think the advice would be that.
I mean, finally, I think it is valid to change your opinion,
to see what you want.
Now there are definitely more opportunities than before.
(14:46):
Yes, because when I started at that time there were not so many law schools,
there were not so many firms that were doing this kind of thing.
Exactly, and I think I have been very lucky in that sense,
and it happens to me a lot that they write to me, for example,
students or people who are doing their LLM in Peru,
and they tell me, tell me a little how has been your path,
(15:07):
I also want to work in the United States.
And I tell you the truth, I think that in that sense I was quite lucky,
and at that time, to be in the right place, with the right case,
because I did not have an LLM and then a job as it usually happens.
Let's say that my path was different,
but as I say, there are different options.
Another thing that I remember right now and that I think can be heard by people,
(15:31):
and I think I have commented with you two, is the importance of networking.
At that time I did not see it so clear in the university.
Sometimes you are in university and obviously you are focused on studying,
that you are doing super well, and you say,
well, I will take care of this, you do not give so much importance to those things,
but I looking back and if I had to give myself a piece of advice at that time or now,
(15:55):
I say the importance of making those connections from that moment.
Time inevitably passes, one never knows where it is, and that's how it happened to me.
That's how I know you, you know what I saw,
you always find someone you know in common,
that's also a way to find new opportunities and explore new paths.
So I think that's a point that should not be forgotten.
(16:18):
I admire your story because you have a lot of experience.
For someone who does not know you, you have a lot of experience in international law,
not only arbitration but other branches.
And then you come to the United States to take some classes in arbitration
with people who have never done it, to take MUTE classes, to learn.
(16:42):
I think it is very important for someone who really knows a subject,
to return to the subject to see what I have lost, what other people do.
It's great that you are doing it and that you are learning new things until this moment.
(17:02):
Yes, and I think that, as Margarita said a while ago,
one never knows where the opportunities are.
I appreciate, for example, that my sister continues to live here,
which gives me the opportunity to come here often or to be here.
And well, this city offers you that, right?
Conferences or making connections.
And I think that's important, always being in constant movement, as they say,
(17:25):
learning new styles.
Because of course, when you are in a firm and you work with a lawyer
and you are just starting out, you tend to learn the style and the form of that lawyer.
And later on you will realize that this is not your style and it is not your way.
And the only way is to see how the rest is doing it,
(17:45):
to see what is it that I like, what I can take for myself
and what things are simply not my style of work,
or it is not my style of writing or speaking in general.
I think that there is always an importance in taking a break from work.
I mean, when you come to visit your sister, you have nephews, nieces.
Being a family of laws, they start talking about politics and what is happening.
(18:09):
Not at all. Yes, I have a nephew of almost four years.
I also have another niece in Peru.
So a little bit always the pro and against the world we live in now.
You always feel that you are missing a part, right?
I am here and of course I miss my family in Peru.
And when I am in Peru, I miss my family here.
(18:31):
But yes, as I say, I love it.
And when I am here, I take the most of my family time, which is super important.
And that is another of the things I think that it is important to talk about, right?
That balance of professional life and personal life, which is difficult,
especially when you are just starting out.
And I have also been through it.
I think there are certain moments when you definitely have to put more hours
(18:56):
and when your focus is totally on developing your career.
But I think it is good that now more and more firms are looking for people
to have that balance and, as you said, that you finally do not forget.
And that is something that I wondered at one point in my life.
Who am I besides being Katerina Alahouada?
(19:16):
And many times along the way we forget that we are more than Katerina Alahouada.
And so I wondered what other things I like, what things I have stopped doing.
And in fact it was all a rediscovery of who I am.
But of course, many times that is only what gives you time and experience.
Because of course, at that time when I worked, we all worked very hard,
(19:39):
but there are many times that you do forget certain parts of your life that are also important.
Well, but that's what I like because we do not talk about Katerina, the person.
The person.
And not the lawyer. What do you like to do?
Out of the law.
Something that happened to me is very interesting, that in the end the person who made the communications was your brother.
(20:00):
My brother, yes.
Yes.
In fact, yes, my brother studied communications and now he is dedicated to advertising.
Was it that your passion for 5 or 6 years of wanting to...
I don't know, as an anecdote, I tell you that well, I change to law, my brother starts to study law.
In fact, in some classes we even study together.
(20:22):
And my brother, who we get along very little between the three of us, we only get along for a year or nine months.
Between each one he starts to study communications.
And the fight with my mom was because my mom would tell him,
Eduardo, you don't study, look at your sisters, reading all day.
And of course, my brother trying to explain to my mom, my career is different, right?
His career was to go to the sites and film or do jobs, so of course.
(20:47):
She thinks that she is playing with me.
I don't think that she has inspired him the hours and hours that we spent reading.
But yes, now that you mention it, it is curious that he has finished doing that and now that he is very good at what he does, but at the same time.
I now see what he does and say no, I mean, I don't identify with that, I don't identify with communications.
In other places you have lived, that is, you have worked in Mexico, you have worked in Peru, in Washington.
(21:14):
Has there been a favorite or has there been for someone who is considering, look, I'm going to come to the United States,
how will it be to live in Houston or in Washington?
In Houston the heat, I don't know how to say it.
The heat, it's too much.
The truth is that, let's see, in the topic of Houston, it was a bit because of the university program that he is looking for.
(21:34):
In fact, at that time I was considering between Austin and Houston.
Finally I decided for Houston.
I liked the program more that they had at that time.
It is not my favorite city, Houston.
But that is the center of energy.
Yes, yes, I mean, I loved the experience of being there.
I loved the university, the friends I made, but it is not a city.
(21:56):
I love to visit it, but like that, I don't know, I always say when I arrive in a new city, I don't know if it happens to them,
but sometimes you have a feeling of saying I would live here or not.
No?
I don't think I have a favorite.
Lima will always be my home, there is my family.
Mexico has a special place for me too.
I had very nice moments there, I have great friends.
(22:18):
Every time I come back, I feel the joy of returning.
And as I said before, Washington, yes, for me it is my second home.
And also because I am lucky that my sister lives here.
So really, and it's hard for me until now, it's difficult to explain.
And yesterday I just commented on it and said, every time I return to Washington and I step on Reagan, I say, I go home.
(22:41):
And that feeling is weird because I arrive in Lima and the same thing happens to me.
And I think it happens to all of us who are from one side to the other.
So no, there is no clear favorite, but I think there are little places in my heart for each one.
I also saw that you had an interest in pro bono, in diversity.
But I didn't really understand what has to do with diversity in terms of laws or international branches.
(23:08):
I love this pro bono theme.
In fact, in general, pro bono is more related to law and it is something in which I have been able to apply my knowledge of law to help.
But I have always been involved since high school, since university, in volunteer programs organized by the school.
(23:29):
Later on, on my own, at university.
I have also been a catechist, a pastor.
I mean, it's been everything you can imagine.
And of course, already being in Chocopar and then in Wired in Case, which suddenly had a more established program, pro bono is something that I love a lot.
For example, something that we have not talked about and that definitely helps is the language.
(23:50):
For me, speaking Spanish, well, obviously speaking English has to be done.
But speaking Spanish, for example, gave me the opportunity in Wired in Case to work in pro bono cases that made me feel very good that it was helping.
For example, I saw many cases of refugees, of people who were asking for asylum, who did not speak English.
(24:10):
And it was very nice to combine the human part, which is a bit of what we talk about, with the professional part.
Suddenly, I am not an expert in immigration regulation, asylum or anything, but I was there to facilitate and the power, in many cases, that people feel the confidence to tell their story.
Yes.
So...
(24:31):
Not every lawyer who works in big companies speaks Spanish.
No, and not everyone either has the sensitivity, many times, and that's what you guys were talking about.
I think it's important to never forget the human part.
Finally, we are all people and we are more than lawyers.
Yes, our work is important, but I think that finally in a few years nobody will remember how good or bad a lawyer you were.
(24:56):
But they will remember how good a person or not you were or the impact you caused on people.
So I think that's something that... and I have seen it throughout my career, right?
There are different styles, but I always give myself something.
I always have to be true to myself, right? Remember what values are important to me, what things I am willing to accept, what things I am not.
(25:20):
And I think that's something that you should never forget. Who you are and what is important to you.
For a long time, when I was working in big companies, we were in moments of crisis, every time, from one crisis to another crisis.
And sometimes there are people sleeping in their offices, there are people who are not eating, who are crying in the bathroom.
(25:42):
But sometimes it's inevitable, or is it possible that there is a piece of advice that you would give,
when you get to a point where someone says, look, I don't know if this branch is for me, because it's too difficult.
Sometimes it's that practice of law or it's the environment where one is.
I think it's a combination of things, but I do think it influences a lot the people you work with and feel that support.
(26:08):
It's true that we've all spent the whole night without sleeping, especially when there is an audience.
Interesting moments in which one, as you say, lack of sleep, being hungry, makes everyone more sensitive than usual.
But I think that's where the search for ways to take care of oneself comes in.
(26:31):
Whether it's taking 10 minutes of meditation, writing, or whatever, you say, 10 minutes, I'm going to cry.
And then I continue.
But I think that's the only thing that can find its escape.
I know people who literally put on music for a moment and say, I'm going to take this time and I'm going to continue.
(26:52):
I've been lucky enough to meet great friends in which we've literally cried together.
And then we continued until one moment, until we told a joke or something like that.
In fact, now that you mention it, not only in the signing, but now I remember my experience studying for the New York bar.
I studied it with my sister.
We were lucky enough to study it together.
And of course, we looked for days when she just, as you said, I laughed at myself because it was one day I cried, another day she cried.
(27:19):
And then we said, we have to do something. So we decided that one hour a day we were going to do a series.
We took a series and we forced ourselves to have that moment of disconnection.
I'm not going to lie to you. There were times when I was watching the series and I was thinking and saying, I should be studying.
I'm running out of time, but on the other hand I said, I need this time to forget about studying and just disconnect.
(27:41):
So I think we can apply that to everything, from a professional athlete to a lawyer to any personalist, those moments of disconnection.
What you are studying at the bar right now, is there a series you recommend?
Well, I saw Brothers and Sisters.
Brothers and Sisters?
Which also had many seasons, so they gave me the opportunity to be there.
(28:05):
But yes, good luck.
And you just got admitted to DC?
Yes, DC.
Congratulations.
Like everything on the plane, I think it's one step further. I'm happy, but for the bar, nothing, cheer up.
Yes, and I think it's a good point that at work sometimes you have to support each other.
(28:26):
Because sometimes you feel like you're doing it alone.
Yes, and I think that's where we return to what we didn't forget that we are people before anything else.
And that's what you were saying, and I think we need to cultivate that more, to talk about ourselves.
I remember a long time ago at one of the jobs, they asked us all, tell me the name of the children of your assistant.
(28:49):
And of course, many people didn't know.
That's great, a good question.
So you say, how can it be that you've been working with a person for five years and you don't know the names of their children?
So what you were saying, sometimes people don't talk out of fear, especially when you're starting, the same fact of asking for vacations, what do you think it is?
How are you going to ask for vacations?
(29:11):
And that also reminded me a little, thinking about this conversation that we were going to have.
Many times, yes, work is hard and demanding, but I think that sometimes one puts much more pressure than it should.
I remember family moments when I was with my computer at the table and my family was telling me,
Katharina, can't you wait for that mail? And I said, no, I can't wait.
(29:34):
And now I say, yes, of course I could wait. I mean, I could wait until I finished eating.
So I think that there are stressful moments, but if we don't forget that we are people and we give that environment or that confidence that people tell us,
as you said, I don't know, I need, if I don't know what you're going through, how can I anticipate what you need?
(29:58):
I think you have to be in a team where people have enough confidence to say, I need this support.
Or what I was saying before, I think everyone is seeing what is better than the other, what you can support yourself in.
So for that it is a team, the one who is good at something will help the one who is suddenly not so much.
And so I think it is in the well-being of everyone and the team.
(30:22):
I have never worked with a firm outside the United States.
I don't know what support is like when they have to see when they are going to seminars or doing events.
And nowadays I see that that was very, very important, also as networking was very important.
But when you are so busy, you forget to connect, have talks, take classes.
(30:45):
Did you see it the same when you were in several films?
I think that yes, definitely, but as you say, I think that day by day it definitely wins you.
You don't have time.
No, you don't have time or, as you say, suddenly you give more importance to one thing or another.
And I think that the key is the organization, right?
And see that everything is important.
(31:06):
Now, I also think that you have to be realistic and say, I can't do everything, or I can't do everything at the same time.
And that's why, suddenly, someone, you can't do it today, but someone from your team can.
And yes, I think it's important.
The same with friends, right?
How many friends do you have that suddenly you don't see them for a long time?
(31:27):
With some it will happen that you meet again, if it's as if time had not passed,
but I think that as with any relationship, you have to cultivate it.
The same happens with, especially in the legal environment that changes so much and there are so many new people,
I think it's important to be there in the environment, right?
Now it's difficult, yes.
There will be moments when it's easier to go to events.
(31:48):
Suddenly, now I also definitely believe that there are many more opportunities,
many more seminars, many more conferences, the same contests, the same moods.
So be it, by Zoom, right?
Every week there are things.
It's just to have in mind that that is an important part.
And that it's as important or more important than being in your office writing,
(32:13):
or dedicating your rights, or going to your classes if you're at the university.
That finally that also helps you cultivate your personal part, which is what we were talking about.
I've always seen that there is great importance in lawyers who have LLM, international lawyers,
but not all firms have international lawyers.
And sometimes I think there are firms that think that international lawyers have the same value.
(32:39):
And if someone is listening, even if they are an American partner or a partner who has never worked with an international lawyer,
what would you tell them to bring more?
Because there are several who are looking for work.
First, I think I'm going to talk about Peru, suddenly a little more, because obviously I'm Peruvian,
but Latin America in general is definitely a very attractive market,
(33:01):
if we're talking about disputes and international conflicts, and what we were talking about before.
It's simply starting from civil rights against what I think gives you another vision.
Also the substantive part, right?
Many times the cases, I do think it's not the same,
you can have a local council, but I do think that sometimes you need people who speak the same language.
(33:24):
And it has happened to me, for example, coming from Peru to the United States,
suddenly the way of writing, the way of speaking, sometimes you said, no, they are totally different worlds.
It's silly, but at the beginning, for example, doing things in the United States that we were going to send to Peru,
I said, this text has to be justified.
(33:44):
I mean, if you in Peru send everything to the right, you're going to say, what is this?
I mean, that little thing.
It's still costing me, I have to confess.
A 5, A 4 against a letter. I know that's... I'm saying this to exaggerate, right?
Or for example, in Latin America, and it's something I've learned over time,
and I do think I like it here, it's that everything is much more direct here, right?
(34:08):
In Peru. Or sometimes it also shocked me because here in Peru, or surely in Colombia, it's the same, right?
Someone calls you and you're like, hello, how are you? And I'm going to go.
And here sometimes it's not even a hello, right?
So sometimes it was like that part and understanding that cultural part is also important when you work on cases.
(34:30):
Suddenly, obviously, in the substantive part, I think there is a lot to contribute.
And especially because of the topic of diversity, right?
Learning about new styles, what we talked about a little, not because you are a partner,
because if you have a lot of time in a firm, I think you always have to learn and we have the opportunity to learn from others.
That's something I'm very clear about, right?
(34:50):
I, to this day, as I said, I continue to learn from the MUT students,
as well as, hopefully, they had learned something from me, but I think that's what we're here for.
And yes, I think it's beneficial to have different opinions on the subject of the language, right?
I think it's super important if you're working with cases in other countries,
(35:10):
to have a person who speaks the language in a native way.
For women who are listening and think, well, I don't want to enter an international branch because there is enough machismo.
Is there hope to grow in your life, to have that opportunity to have a voice?
Yes, I think there are opportunities. I think it's changing, fortunately.
(35:33):
Yes, I'm not going to deny it, I've been the only woman on the table many times.
I've been the only lawyer many times, but I think that's what it's for and I think it's possible to have a role model.
I've been lucky enough to work with women who, to this day, are mentors to me,
(35:54):
who I've learned a lot from and who I think it's possible to have a family life and a career.
I'm not going to say it's easy, I don't think it is.
I do think things are changing, I do think that the companies are more focused on the importance of having the same opportunities for men and women.
(36:15):
But I think it's important to talk about what we talked about before.
Now there are many programs of mentors with mentors, especially in women,
that you can share your experience and advise.
And to this day, I still have people, well, not only women, but now that we're talking about women, mainly women,
that I learn from and say this is possible.
(36:37):
But at the end of the day, like anything, it's a choice of which path you have to choose.
For example, not all people want to be partners.
Some say this is my goal and on the way they say no, this is not what I want.
Not all people want to be general counsel of a company, men or women.
So going back to what we talked about at the beginning, I think it's important to set that goal at the beginning,
(37:04):
on the way to say no, suddenly this is not for me.
So I reiterate the importance of looking for those people who inspire you and with whom you can identify.
And I invite all students and people who have a little more experience to look for those opportunities.
(37:25):
I think that when you are in college, you suddenly feel more timid or you don't feel the confidence to describe it.
But I have never heard anyone take the wrong one that a person approaches and asks him
and we look for those spaces to help each other.
I hope there are enough people who will be able to talk to you, who will be able to receive advice, to see you as a romano.
(37:54):
No, I love it and I love to do it.
And yes, sometimes that's where you realize the passage of time, right?
And it has happened to me recently that sometimes one focuses on what I lack, on what I want, on what I lack to achieve
and forgets the path I have traveled and does not value the things that I think are important.
(38:16):
Sometimes time passes so fast, I forget all the things that one does and how it started, but there is a lot of hope.
Yes, I think it is inevitable to feel frustrated, especially as you said, right?
If you are looking for a job, you want something, it is part of the process, in the end we are human.
(38:37):
But I think that at the end of the day one has to first trust that you deserve it, I think that is the main thing, right?
That's what I deserve, that's what I want and one has to have the tranquility that has done everything possible
and there are things that like everything in life escape from one, but I think one should never forget that
we are going to have what is best for us, so at that moment we do not realize.
(39:00):
I love to hear these words because for young lawyers who are starting their professional careers
and personally in the field of international arbitration it is very important to be able to count on people like Kate
who also, as a gossip, Kate has been a great advisor for me along this path, so the truth is super important
(39:23):
and how nice that more and more people who have experience in the field are open to advise young professionals
that at some point we do see them as role models and if we say wow I want to be like this person,
I see myself criticizing like her or I don't know, or a independent judge wow how cool, it is very important to be able to count on this type of help, support
(39:49):
and people who honestly tell you look, over here it is, go on, keep pursuing this or better try something else, open up to other options.
Because one, starting, does not know what path to take.
No, and I think that, as I said, for example, when I did my master's degree, as I told you, after three years, I went to Wailin' Case
(40:13):
and of course, at that moment I returned from my master's degree, surely, or I imagine, I returned very sad saying I wanted to work at this moment,
so I think one should never get discouraged or say because things do not happen at that moment it does not mean that they will not happen,
no, one simply has to follow, as I said, loyal to oneself, saying what I want, who I am, and things will happen sooner or later, so to speak,
(40:36):
or suddenly what you thought you wanted will come something better, I don't know, sometimes it sounds a bit like a book of advice, but that's how it is, I think,
I don't think one has to, as I said, trust in what it is, and yes, I love what you say, thank you for that, but I also thank you, as an uncle,
because I, at the point where I am, I also appreciate having older people than me, as I told you, I think hope, as I said,
(40:59):
is that it not only ends, but I see that really people, I don't know, 10, 15 years older than me continue to fulfill that role,
not only with me, but with people, with younger people, so that also seems nice to me, right?
Finally, I think we are a community, not only the married, but all of us who work around this community,
I do believe that we are a united community, I believe that we are a community that helps each other, of course, there are things that we can definitely improve,
(41:25):
but I believe that we are trying, right?
Thank you very much for coming, I know that it has been a great message, and how good that we have this opportunity to talk to you,
and I believe that it has really inspired me.
No, thank you very much, and as I say, I invite you, and this has not been really just words,
(41:47):
anyone listening to what I can help you, I am happy.
Thank you very much for coming.
Thank you.
(42:23):
Thank you.
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We are returning to the show, the favorite show of the Latinos.
And today we are with a special guest.
My name is Evi Ballena.
And today I am with two very special women.
(00:46):
Hello everyone, again on the show.
My name is Margarita Arango and we are here with our super guest,
extremely special, I must confess,
who is Katerina Miroquesada.
Please, Kate, introduce yourself.
Hello, how are you?
First of all, thank you very much, Kellevi and Margarita, for the invitation.
It's a pleasure to be here.
How good, how good, finally having you on the show.
(01:08):
Well, it was a bit difficult because you live in Peru,
but we picked you up here in Washington and we take advantage of being here.
Well, thank you for participating, really.
It is very important for us to be able to count on you.
No, thank you.
I am happy. Washington is my second home, so I am very happy to be here.
Well, as a lawyer in Peru, you started
(01:29):
a study at Chicopa and from there to some point you went to study at an LLM in Houston.
Yes.
There was a reason for that, because you had been there for a long time in that study.
You took your LLM and it was for the purpose of studying an international branch or another branch.
(01:51):
Yes, well, I worked at Chicopa for almost 12 years,
since I started as a trainee, a graduate student while I was studying at university.
And at that time I worked in the regulatory area,
seeing electricity regulation, which is what I liked at that time.
And that's why I decided to do my master's degree in Houston,
because in fact I did a master's degree in energy law, environmental law.
(02:14):
And already at that time I was lucky that when I finished university,
after a long time, the first case came in the CIDAID against Peru.
It was a case that was from a transmission line.
So I was very lucky because the background of the matter,
being a transmission line, included me in the team.
And that case, the Chicopa study was co-counseling of White and Case.
(02:38):
So that was my first approach with the international arbitrage
and then also with an international signature.
At that time, just finishing university, it opened a new world for me.
And I went to do my master's degree, but always thinking about continuing to devote myself to energy law.
But many cases began to come against Peru,
(02:58):
continuing to work with White and Case.
And there I realized that I liked international arbitrage
and also combining it with energy practice.
I think that now that I think about it, I appreciate that it was like that.
The first to have had a substantial specialty
and that that has led me to work in arbitrage.
(03:19):
Then I have already been able to see other types of infrastructure,
roads, ports, but I always think it is useful to have a specialty
or have had a few years practicing in that.
So that was a bit of the way.
My idea at that time was to have this specialty, to have energy,
but it was given naturally to return to Peru and continue working with White and Case.
(03:44):
And in fact, that's how I ended up working in White and Case a few years later.
But you also lived in Washington for a while, right Kate?
Yes, first of all, in fact, after returning from my master's degree in Peru,
I continued in this job for about three years.
Then I went to Mexico, to the office of Mexico, of White and Case, for two years.
And then I was here in Washington for four more years in White and Case.
(04:09):
A question because not everyone who is listening to this program will know what international arbitrage is.
For a person who does not understand or has never known what international arbitrage is,
especially in the Latino community, what is it about?
Because we are in Peru, in Houston, in Mexico, I see that you have also passed the bar in New York.
(04:33):
I mean, you are everywhere.
What is international arbitrage?
In fact, yes, I know that people from many places listen to us.
There I do believe that being Peruvian I am lucky that in Peru it is quite well known or from the university what arbitrage is.
Because in Peru we have mandatory regulation in contracts with the state of arbitrage.
(04:55):
But let's say that if we want to explain it in simple terms, it is an alternative mechanism for resolving conflicts
or, let's say, a different option to what the judicial power would come to be.
And in this case, instead of resolving the controversy of judges, they resolve it in what we call arbitrage.
In most cases, or in many cases, they have a specialty in the matter that is being resolved.
(05:21):
And well, we can talk about the pros and cons, but as you say, it has a crucial aspect of this international vision
that allows you to work on different topics.
Let's say boring, it will never be, you always see different things.
And that's what caught my attention when I saw and had the opportunity to have this first experience
(05:42):
of working with an international study, to see really how things were done.
Although I worked in a study, one of the best in Peru at that time, there was very little experience in international arbitrage as such.
And not so much in the background, but even the logistics.
For me, everyone opened up and I think that the bitumen will be able to know perfectly what it implies.
(06:04):
For example, from an audience, from filing, all the logistics, the Peruvian studies were not prepared for that at that time.
So that's where I realized and said I want to learn more about this.
And in fact, that's why at one point, already having the master's degree, I said,
I think that if I really want to specialize in this, I want to work the opportunity to work in a study abroad.
(06:27):
That is, a person who works in Peru as a lawyer, it is very different from a person in the United States or in London or something like that,
because there are different branches of law, but also different styles of how to work.
Yes, different styles. Well, first of all, Peru is civil law.
And here it is like a world.
But I think I have evolved, definitely when I was in university, which had been for a while.
(06:53):
And now I see it, for example, in my time, which thing would have delighted me, the M.U.T.s did not exist.
Or they were very, very new. I never had the opportunity to participate in a M.U.T.
Now I think that gives you tools that we did not give at that time.
The teaching has changed.
I mean, I remember my classes at the university in which the teacher simply stopped for three hours to talk.
There was no participation of the students as there is here.
(07:18):
There was not so much debate or so much opinion.
I think that generations are lucky to be exposed to really be like if they were working,
or as if they were really living the cases and it gives them a preparation that we definitely did not have before.
Total. In fact, Kate was accompanying American University in the last M.U.T. court that she did in Spanish as a judge.
(07:46):
No, an incredible experience. I have already participated in M.U.T.s before and I am impressed by the quality of the students.
For me, sometimes I forgot that I was in a M.U.T. and I really said that as if it were a real trial.
It is a good first approximation for students of how a real practice will be in the area that they like,
(08:11):
which in this case is being international arbitration, but there are M.U.T.s in different areas of law.
Definitely. And I think that suddenly I am already moving forward and then we can talk about it.
But I think that one suddenly has an idea of what the right is, what they want to specialize in,
and then when you get to the field, so to speak, you realize that things are different.
(08:32):
And that is not good or bad. I think that each one has their personality.
There will be people who like to do reports, research, other people love to be in the hearing
and make the allegations, other people maybe not so much. And there is no good or bad.
I think that each one discovers what they like to do, what is good, what can be complemented,
(08:54):
and above all, working in a team that I think is fundamental.
It is a good observation because you did not always want to be a lawyer.
No.
What?
No.
That is, when you started, you were in school, what was a dream?
Just in a previous conversation I told you that I remembered when I applied for the master's degree,
(09:19):
what do you have to write in the letter?
I remember that the first line was, I never thought I was going to be a lawyer.
And it was like that. And that's a bit like what you have in your head and what you think you like.
And then you realize what things are like.
Since I have memories of when I was a girl, I thought I wanted to study communications.
Yes, that is communication. At that time I thought I wanted to dedicate myself to advertising and marketing.
(09:44):
I don't know remembering where that came from because nobody in my family at that time or close was dedicated to that.
To represent clients or companies or stars.
Now thinking, no, no, no, as a commercial designer, right?
I mean, the slogan of Coca-Cola or a product, right?
I think I maybe saw television and said, this looks incredible, right?
(10:07):
And well, in fact, I entered university in communications sciences in Lima.
In the university I was in, you had to do a year of general studies, regardless of the degree you took.
And then I entered and I literally took two classes in communications sciences to say, no, this is not for me.
(10:29):
And of course, it was a difficult decision.
I had been thinking for at least five or six years at that time, this is what I want to do, this is what I want to study.
And as I say, two classes were based on me. At that time I said, and now what?
Because it's not that I had a right in my head, there were lawyers in my family.
(10:52):
In fact, my sister, who is also a lawyer today, always said that she wanted to study law.
Also internationally?
Well, now she also lives here in Washington and sees a bit of American law.
In part, yes, I don't see arbitration, but yes.
And then, at that moment, I said, now what? Because I said, I don't want to study anything that has to do with homero.
(11:12):
And then I had psychology or law.
And curiously, at the university they had organized a congress, I think it was a criminal law or civil law, and I signed up.
And I got into the congress without knowing anything, I sat down and said, this is interesting, well, it will be law.
And so it was.
And doing the comparison, literally, I spent a law class, my first law class, and I said, this is what I like.
(11:37):
So, to return a bit to the comparison of saying, I think it's okay to change your opinion on the road, it's okay...
I'm not going to say wrong, because finally one begins to take the decision you have with the information you have at that moment.
But the same is what you want to dedicate to the same right.
I think that, for example, I have always worked in a law firm, national and international, I have worked in a company.
(12:03):
But my sister works in a company, she has worked in a firm.
And I think that sometimes you don't have to close to what you want to do, right?
Suddenly, well, Margarita, suddenly you are closer to that decision of what you wanted to see,
if the state, if private, if company, if firm.
And sometimes we have the idea that we want to work in a firm and we want to make this path.
(12:27):
And it's hard for us to make the decision to say, suddenly this is not for me, suddenly this is not what I like,
and suddenly I would do much better in a company or I would do much better in the state.
So I think that my advice, and looking back, I think you have to be a little more flexible, right?
To adapt and see what is best for me.
(12:48):
And that each one has their own path and that sometimes it is inevitable to compare with the rest,
but I think we must avoid doing it, right?
Because each one is different and the times of each one are different,
and each path is special and equally valuable.
Well, I must confess one thing now in the podcast.
One of the reasons why we decided to start this initiative is precisely to show
(13:14):
the practitioners in law, the people who want to study law,
or those who are currently thinking about what to do with their lives,
that there is not a single path.
And that it is true, we must be flexible, we must be open to opportunities,
but we must not be closed to the fact that things have to happen in a certain way.
(13:36):
That for international students who are currently in situations of looking for work,
to see what is the next step they must take in their professional career,
this is a safe space.
Or for someone who is doing communications, they say, well, I want to be a lawyer.
Or if not, someone who wants to be a lawyer may want to do communications,
(13:59):
because it is also similar, you have to communicate a message to a client.
And it also ends up happening a lot that my colleagues of my generation,
who graduated from law, do not leave, right?
Because it is the same, they still believed that at that time they wanted to be lawyers.
But I do think that the formation of lawyers, sometimes the non-lawyers do not understand,
(14:21):
but I do think that it gives you a different way of thinking, a way of seeing things.
So you do not end up dedicating yourself to that, but definitely, right?
I think the advice would be that.
I mean, finally, I think it is valid to change your opinion,
to see what you want.
Now there are definitely more opportunities than before.
(14:46):
Yes, because when I started at that time there were not so many law schools,
there were not so many firms that were doing this kind of thing.
Exactly, and I think I have been very lucky in that sense,
and it happens to me a lot that they write to me, for example,
students or people who are doing their LLM in Peru,
and they tell me, tell me a little how has been your path,
(15:07):
I also want to work in the United States.
And I tell you the truth, I think that in that sense I was quite lucky,
and at that time, to be in the right place, with the right case,
because I did not have an LLM and then a job as it usually happens.
Let's say that my path was different,
but as I say, there are different options.
Another thing that I remember right now and that I think can be heard by people,
(15:31):
and I think I have commented with you two, is the importance of networking.
At that time I did not see it so clear in the university.
Sometimes you are in university and obviously you are focused on studying,
that you are doing super well, and you say,
well, I will take care of this, you do not give so much importance to those things,
but I looking back and if I had to give myself a piece of advice at that time or now,
(15:55):
I say the importance of making those connections from that moment.
Time inevitably passes, one never knows where it is, and that's how it happened to me.
That's how I know you, you know what I saw,
you always find someone you know in common,
that's also a way to find new opportunities and explore new paths.
So I think that's a point that should not be forgotten.
(16:18):
I admire your story because you have a lot of experience.
For someone who does not know you, you have a lot of experience in international law,
not only arbitration but other branches.
And then you come to the United States to take some classes in arbitration
with people who have never done it, to take MUTE classes, to learn.
(16:42):
I think it is very important for someone who really knows a subject,
to return to the subject to see what I have lost, what other people do.
It's great that you are doing it and that you are learning new things until this moment.
(17:02):
Yes, and I think that, as Margarita said a while ago,
one never knows where the opportunities are.
I appreciate, for example, that my sister continues to live here,
which gives me the opportunity to come here often or to be here.
And well, this city offers you that, right?
Conferences or making connections.
And I think that's important, always being in constant movement, as they say,
(17:25):
learning new styles.
Because of course, when you are in a firm and you work with a lawyer
and you are just starting out, you tend to learn the style and the form of that lawyer.
And later on you will realize that this is not your style and it is not your way.
And the only way is to see how the rest is doing it,
(17:45):
to see what is it that I like, what I can take for myself
and what things are simply not my style of work,
or it is not my style of writing or speaking in general.
I think that there is always an importance in taking a break from work.
I mean, when you come to visit your sister, you have nephews, nieces.
Being a family of laws, they start talking about politics and what is happening.
(18:09):
Not at all. Yes, I have a nephew of almost four years.
I also have another niece in Peru.
So a little bit always the pro and against the world we live in now.
You always feel that you are missing a part, right?
I am here and of course I miss my family in Peru.
And when I am in Peru, I miss my family here.
(18:31):
But yes, as I say, I love it.
And when I am here, I take the most of my family time, which is super important.
And that is another of the things I think that it is important to talk about, right?
That balance of professional life and personal life, which is difficult,
especially when you are just starting out.
And I have also been through it.
I think there are certain moments when you definitely have to put more hours
(18:56):
and when your focus is totally on developing your career.
But I think it is good that now more and more firms are looking for people
to have that balance and, as you said, that you finally do not forget.
And that is something that I wondered at one point in my life.
Who am I besides being Katerina Alahouada?
(19:16):
And many times along the way we forget that we are more than Katerina Alahouada.
And so I wondered what other things I like, what things I have stopped doing.
And in fact it was all a rediscovery of who I am.
But of course, many times that is only what gives you time and experience.
Because of course, at that time when I worked, we all worked very hard,
(19:39):
but there are many times that you do forget certain parts of your life that are also important.
Well, but that's what I like because we do not talk about Katerina, the person.
The person.
And not the lawyer. What do you like to do?
Out of the law.
Something that happened to me is very interesting, that in the end the person who made the communications was your brother.
(20:00):
My brother, yes.
Yes.
In fact, yes, my brother studied communications and now he is dedicated to advertising.
Was it that your passion for 5 or 6 years of wanting to...
I don't know, as an anecdote, I tell you that well, I change to law, my brother starts to study law.
In fact, in some classes we even study together.
(20:22):
And my brother, who we get along very little between the three of us, we only get along for a year or nine months.
Between each one he starts to study communications.
And the fight with my mom was because my mom would tell him,
Eduardo, you don't study, look at your sisters, reading all day.
And of course, my brother trying to explain to my mom, my career is different, right?
His career was to go to the sites and film or do jobs, so of course.
(20:47):
She thinks that she is playing with me.
I don't think that she has inspired him the hours and hours that we spent reading.
But yes, now that you mention it, it is curious that he has finished doing that and now that he is very good at what he does, but at the same time.
I now see what he does and say no, I mean, I don't identify with that, I don't identify with communications.
In other places you have lived, that is, you have worked in Mexico, you have worked in Peru, in Washington.
(21:14):
Has there been a favorite or has there been for someone who is considering, look, I'm going to come to the United States,
how will it be to live in Houston or in Washington?
In Houston the heat, I don't know how to say it.
The heat, it's too much.
The truth is that, let's see, in the topic of Houston, it was a bit because of the university program that he is looking for.
(21:34):
In fact, at that time I was considering between Austin and Houston.
Finally I decided for Houston.
I liked the program more that they had at that time.
It is not my favorite city, Houston.
But that is the center of energy.
Yes, yes, I mean, I loved the experience of being there.
I loved the university, the friends I made, but it is not a city.
(21:56):
I love to visit it, but like that, I don't know, I always say when I arrive in a new city, I don't know if it happens to them,
but sometimes you have a feeling of saying I would live here or not.
No?
I don't think I have a favorite.
Lima will always be my home, there is my family.
Mexico has a special place for me too.
I had very nice moments there, I have great friends.
(22:18):
Every time I come back, I feel the joy of returning.
And as I said before, Washington, yes, for me it is my second home.
And also because I am lucky that my sister lives here.
So really, and it's hard for me until now, it's difficult to explain.
And yesterday I just commented on it and said, every time I return to Washington and I step on Reagan, I say, I go home.
(22:41):
And that feeling is weird because I arrive in Lima and the same thing happens to me.
And I think it happens to all of us who are from one side to the other.
So no, there is no clear favorite, but I think there are little places in my heart for each one.
I also saw that you had an interest in pro bono, in diversity.
But I didn't really understand what has to do with diversity in terms of laws or international branches.
(23:08):
I love this pro bono theme.
In fact, in general, pro bono is more related to law and it is something in which I have been able to apply my knowledge of law to help.
But I have always been involved since high school, since university, in volunteer programs organized by the school.
(23:29):
Later on, on my own, at university.
I have also been a catechist, a pastor.
I mean, it's been everything you can imagine.
And of course, already being in Chocopar and then in Wired in Case, which suddenly had a more established program, pro bono is something that I love a lot.
For example, something that we have not talked about and that definitely helps is the language.
(23:50):
For me, speaking Spanish, well, obviously speaking English has to be done.
But speaking Spanish, for example, gave me the opportunity in Wired in Case to work in pro bono cases that made me feel very good that it was helping.
For example, I saw many cases of refugees, of people who were asking for asylum, who did not speak English.
(24:10):
And it was very nice to combine the human part, which is a bit of what we talk about, with the professional part.
Suddenly, I am not an expert in immigration regulation, asylum or anything, but I was there to facilitate and the power, in many cases, that people feel the confidence to tell their story.
Yes.
So...
(24:31):
Not every lawyer who works in big companies speaks Spanish.
No, and not everyone either has the sensitivity, many times, and that's what you guys were talking about.
I think it's important to never forget the human part.
Finally, we are all people and we are more than lawyers.
Yes, our work is important, but I think that finally in a few years nobody will remember how good or bad a lawyer you were.
(24:56):
But they will remember how good a person or not you were or the impact you caused on people.
So I think that's something that... and I have seen it throughout my career, right?
There are different styles, but I always give myself something.
I always have to be true to myself, right? Remember what values are important to me, what things I am willing to accept, what things I am not.
(25:20):
And I think that's something that you should never forget. Who you are and what is important to you.
For a long time, when I was working in big companies, we were in moments of crisis, every time, from one crisis to another crisis.
And sometimes there are people sleeping in their offices, there are people who are not eating, who are crying in the bathroom.
(25:42):
But sometimes it's inevitable, or is it possible that there is a piece of advice that you would give,
when you get to a point where someone says, look, I don't know if this branch is for me, because it's too difficult.
Sometimes it's that practice of law or it's the environment where one is.
I think it's a combination of things, but I do think it influences a lot the people you work with and feel that support.
(26:08):
It's true that we've all spent the whole night without sleeping, especially when there is an audience.
Interesting moments in which one, as you say, lack of sleep, being hungry, makes everyone more sensitive than usual.
But I think that's where the search for ways to take care of oneself comes in.
(26:31):
Whether it's taking 10 minutes of meditation, writing, or whatever, you say, 10 minutes, I'm going to cry.
And then I continue.
But I think that's the only thing that can find its escape.
I know people who literally put on music for a moment and say, I'm going to take this time and I'm going to continue.
(26:52):
I've been lucky enough to meet great friends in which we've literally cried together.
And then we continued until one moment, until we told a joke or something like that.
In fact, now that you mention it, not only in the signing, but now I remember my experience studying for the New York bar.
I studied it with my sister.
We were lucky enough to study it together.
And of course, we looked for days when she just, as you said, I laughed at myself because it was one day I cried, another day she cried.
(27:19):
And then we said, we have to do something. So we decided that one hour a day we were going to do a series.
We took a series and we forced ourselves to have that moment of disconnection.
I'm not going to lie to you. There were times when I was watching the series and I was thinking and saying, I should be studying.
I'm running out of time, but on the other hand I said, I need this time to forget about studying and just disconnect.
(27:41):
So I think we can apply that to everything, from a professional athlete to a lawyer to any personalist, those moments of disconnection.
What you are studying at the bar right now, is there a series you recommend?
Well, I saw Brothers and Sisters.
Brothers and Sisters?
Which also had many seasons, so they gave me the opportunity to be there.
(28:05):
But yes, good luck.
And you just got admitted to DC?
Yes, DC.
Congratulations.
Like everything on the plane, I think it's one step further. I'm happy, but for the bar, nothing, cheer up.
Yes, and I think it's a good point that at work sometimes you have to support each other.
(28:26):
Because sometimes you feel like you're doing it alone.
Yes, and I think that's where we return to what we didn't forget that we are people before anything else.
And that's what you were saying, and I think we need to cultivate that more, to talk about ourselves.
I remember a long time ago at one of the jobs, they asked us all, tell me the name of the children of your assistant.
(28:49):
And of course, many people didn't know.
That's great, a good question.
So you say, how can it be that you've been working with a person for five years and you don't know the names of their children?
So what you were saying, sometimes people don't talk out of fear, especially when you're starting, the same fact of asking for vacations, what do you think it is?
How are you going to ask for vacations?
(29:11):
And that also reminded me a little, thinking about this conversation that we were going to have.
Many times, yes, work is hard and demanding, but I think that sometimes one puts much more pressure than it should.
I remember family moments when I was with my computer at the table and my family was telling me,
Katharina, can't you wait for that mail? And I said, no, I can't wait.
(29:34):
And now I say, yes, of course I could wait. I mean, I could wait until I finished eating.
So I think that there are stressful moments, but if we don't forget that we are people and we give that environment or that confidence that people tell us,
as you said, I don't know, I need, if I don't know what you're going through, how can I anticipate what you need?
(29:58):
I think you have to be in a team where people have enough confidence to say, I need this support.
Or what I was saying before, I think everyone is seeing what is better than the other, what you can support yourself in.
So for that it is a team, the one who is good at something will help the one who is suddenly not so much.
And so I think it is in the well-being of everyone and the team.
(30:22):
I have never worked with a firm outside the United States.
I don't know what support is like when they have to see when they are going to seminars or doing events.
And nowadays I see that that was very, very important, also as networking was very important.
But when you are so busy, you forget to connect, have talks, take classes.
(30:45):
Did you see it the same when you were in several films?
I think that yes, definitely, but as you say, I think that day by day it definitely wins you.
You don't have time.
No, you don't have time or, as you say, suddenly you give more importance to one thing or another.
And I think that the key is the organization, right?
And see that everything is important.
(31:06):
Now, I also think that you have to be realistic and say, I can't do everything, or I can't do everything at the same time.
And that's why, suddenly, someone, you can't do it today, but someone from your team can.
And yes, I think it's important.
The same with friends, right?
How many friends do you have that suddenly you don't see them for a long time?
(31:27):
With some it will happen that you meet again, if it's as if time had not passed,
but I think that as with any relationship, you have to cultivate it.
The same happens with, especially in the legal environment that changes so much and there are so many new people,
I think it's important to be there in the environment, right?
Now it's difficult, yes.
There will be moments when it's easier to go to events.
(31:48):
Suddenly, now I also definitely believe that there are many more opportunities,
many more seminars, many more conferences, the same contests, the same moods.
So be it, by Zoom, right?
Every week there are things.
It's just to have in mind that that is an important part.
And that it's as important or more important than being in your office writing,
(32:13):
or dedicating your rights, or going to your classes if you're at the university.
That finally that also helps you cultivate your personal part, which is what we were talking about.
I've always seen that there is great importance in lawyers who have LLM, international lawyers,
but not all firms have international lawyers.
And sometimes I think there are firms that think that international lawyers have the same value.
(32:39):
And if someone is listening, even if they are an American partner or a partner who has never worked with an international lawyer,
what would you tell them to bring more?
Because there are several who are looking for work.
First, I think I'm going to talk about Peru, suddenly a little more, because obviously I'm Peruvian,
but Latin America in general is definitely a very attractive market,
(33:01):
if we're talking about disputes and international conflicts, and what we were talking about before.
It's simply starting from civil rights against what I think gives you another vision.
Also the substantive part, right?
Many times the cases, I do think it's not the same,
you can have a local council, but I do think that sometimes you need people who speak the same language.
(33:24):
And it has happened to me, for example, coming from Peru to the United States,
suddenly the way of writing, the way of speaking, sometimes you said, no, they are totally different worlds.
It's silly, but at the beginning, for example, doing things in the United States that we were going to send to Peru,
I said, this text has to be justified.
(33:44):
I mean, if you in Peru send everything to the right, you're going to say, what is this?
I mean, that little thing.
It's still costing me, I have to confess.
A 5, A 4 against a letter. I know that's... I'm saying this to exaggerate, right?
Or for example, in Latin America, and it's something I've learned over time,
and I do think I like it here, it's that everything is much more direct here, right?
(34:08):
In Peru. Or sometimes it also shocked me because here in Peru, or surely in Colombia, it's the same, right?
Someone calls you and you're like, hello, how are you? And I'm going to go.
And here sometimes it's not even a hello, right?
So sometimes it was like that part and understanding that cultural part is also important when you work on cases.
(34:30):
Suddenly, obviously, in the substantive part, I think there is a lot to contribute.
And especially because of the topic of diversity, right?
Learning about new styles, what we talked about a little, not because you are a partner,
because if you have a lot of time in a firm, I think you always have to learn and we have the opportunity to learn from others.
That's something I'm very clear about, right?
(34:50):
I, to this day, as I said, I continue to learn from the MUT students,
as well as, hopefully, they had learned something from me, but I think that's what we're here for.
And yes, I think it's beneficial to have different opinions on the subject of the language, right?
I think it's super important if you're working with cases in other countries,
(35:10):
to have a person who speaks the language in a native way.
For women who are listening and think, well, I don't want to enter an international branch because there is enough machismo.
Is there hope to grow in your life, to have that opportunity to have a voice?
Yes, I think there are opportunities. I think it's changing, fortunately.
(35:33):
Yes, I'm not going to deny it, I've been the only woman on the table many times.
I've been the only lawyer many times, but I think that's what it's for and I think it's possible to have a role model.
I've been lucky enough to work with women who, to this day, are mentors to me,
(35:54):
who I've learned a lot from and who I think it's possible to have a family life and a career.
I'm not going to say it's easy, I don't think it is.
I do think things are changing, I do think that the companies are more focused on the importance of having the same opportunities for men and women.
(36:15):
But I think it's important to talk about what we talked about before.
Now there are many programs of mentors with mentors, especially in women,
that you can share your experience and advise.
And to this day, I still have people, well, not only women, but now that we're talking about women, mainly women,
that I learn from and say this is possible.
(36:37):
But at the end of the day, like anything, it's a choice of which path you have to choose.
For example, not all people want to be partners.
Some say this is my goal and on the way they say no, this is not what I want.
Not all people want to be general counsel of a company, men or women.
So going back to what we talked about at the beginning, I think it's important to set that goal at the beginning,
(37:04):
on the way to say no, suddenly this is not for me.
So I reiterate the importance of looking for those people who inspire you and with whom you can identify.
And I invite all students and people who have a little more experience to look for those opportunities.
(37:25):
I think that when you are in college, you suddenly feel more timid or you don't feel the confidence to describe it.
But I have never heard anyone take the wrong one that a person approaches and asks him
and we look for those spaces to help each other.
I hope there are enough people who will be able to talk to you, who will be able to receive advice, to see you as a romano.
(37:54):
No, I love it and I love to do it.
And yes, sometimes that's where you realize the passage of time, right?
And it has happened to me recently that sometimes one focuses on what I lack, on what I want, on what I lack to achieve
and forgets the path I have traveled and does not value the things that I think are important.
(38:16):
Sometimes time passes so fast, I forget all the things that one does and how it started, but there is a lot of hope.
Yes, I think it is inevitable to feel frustrated, especially as you said, right?
If you are looking for a job, you want something, it is part of the process, in the end we are human.
(38:37):
But I think that at the end of the day one has to first trust that you deserve it, I think that is the main thing, right?
That's what I deserve, that's what I want and one has to have the tranquility that has done everything possible
and there are things that like everything in life escape from one, but I think one should never forget that
we are going to have what is best for us, so at that moment we do not realize.
(39:00):
I love to hear these words because for young lawyers who are starting their professional careers
and personally in the field of international arbitration it is very important to be able to count on people like Kate
who also, as a gossip, Kate has been a great advisor for me along this path, so the truth is super important
(39:23):
and how nice that more and more people who have experience in the field are open to advise young professionals
that at some point we do see them as role models and if we say wow I want to be like this person,
I see myself criticizing like her or I don't know, or a independent judge wow how cool, it is very important to be able to count on this type of help, support
(39:49):
and people who honestly tell you look, over here it is, go on, keep pursuing this or better try something else, open up to other options.
Because one, starting, does not know what path to take.
No, and I think that, as I said, for example, when I did my master's degree, as I told you, after three years, I went to Wailin' Case
(40:13):
and of course, at that moment I returned from my master's degree, surely, or I imagine, I returned very sad saying I wanted to work at this moment,
so I think one should never get discouraged or say because things do not happen at that moment it does not mean that they will not happen,
no, one simply has to follow, as I said, loyal to oneself, saying what I want, who I am, and things will happen sooner or later, so to speak,
(40:36):
or suddenly what you thought you wanted will come something better, I don't know, sometimes it sounds a bit like a book of advice, but that's how it is, I think,
I don't think one has to, as I said, trust in what it is, and yes, I love what you say, thank you for that, but I also thank you, as an uncle,
because I, at the point where I am, I also appreciate having older people than me, as I told you, I think hope, as I said,
(40:59):
is that it not only ends, but I see that really people, I don't know, 10, 15 years older than me continue to fulfill that role,
not only with me, but with people, with younger people, so that also seems nice to me, right?
Finally, I think we are a community, not only the married, but all of us who work around this community,
I do believe that we are a united community, I believe that we are a community that helps each other, of course, there are things that we can definitely improve,
(41:25):
but I believe that we are trying, right?
Thank you very much for coming, I know that it has been a great message, and how good that we have this opportunity to talk to you,
and I believe that it has really inspired me.
No, thank you very much, and as I say, I invite you, and this has not been really just words,
(41:47):
anyone listening to what I can help you, I am happy.
Thank you very much for coming.
Thank you.
(42:23):
Thank you.
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