June 5, 2025 • 37 mins
Is healing supposed to feel this chaotic? In this hilarious and heartfelt episode, Andi & Mich peel back the Instagram filters and get real about the unglamorous side of healing. From screaming in your car to over-apologizing at work, we explore the messy, beautiful truth about growth, boundaries, emotional exhaustion, and the weird (but effective) things we do to feel whole again.
We also dive into:
- Why healing isn’t linear (or aesthetic)
- Weird but real healing methods that actually help
- Friendship breakups, therapy truths, and boundary hangovers
- The pressure of being “palatable” in leadership roles (especially for women)
- The double standards in healing and emotional labor—at home, work, and in our own minds
Whether you’re mid-sob in a Target parking lot or cuddling your feelings away (literally), this one’s for you. You're not alone—and you're not doing it wrong.
Tag your healing homie and hit play.
#HealingIsMessy
#UnfilteredHealing
#ScreamSingingIsTherapy
#BoundariesBeHard
#RealTalkPodcast
#AndiAndMichPodcast
#TherapyTalk
#EmotionalWellness
#HealingJourney
#NotYourInstaHealing
#MessyHealingClub
#SelfCareIsntPretty
#FunnyWomenPodcast
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#BoundariesAreBeautiful
#TherapyLaughCryRepeat
#SpiralWithSnacks
#EmotionalGlowUp
If you liked this episode please like and follow our podcast, leave us a comment, and share it with a friend. Visit us on Youtube for extra content and full episodes https://www.youtube.com/@AndiandMich
Your support helps us to keep the conversations going. <3
-Andi and Mich
The Andi and Mich Podcast: Two Sisters, Two Generations, Unique Perspectives, Lots of Laughs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to Andy and Mitchwhere we get real laugh hard,
and sometimes cry in the carwhile doing it.
I'm Andy, your resident Gen Xelder.
And I'm Mitch, technicallyyounger and proudly spiraling
with intention on this so-calledhealing journey.
In today's episode, we'reunpacking the real unglamorous,
deeply human side of healing.
(00:22):
Let's dive in.
The hot mess express, y'all.
Healing is gritty andtechnically that's where all the
magic happens, but it's in allthe ugly parts.
When you hear the word healingor people talk about healing,
the images that come up for meare like very polished
Instagramable images.
(00:43):
That it's like you go into theyoga class, a hot mess, come out
like on your super glow up.
And you come out a changedperson, but that's not how it
is.
Healing is not glamorous, it'snot polished, and it's not
picture perfect.
Let's talk about the amount ofawkward moments you have when
you're healing.
I didn't realize like when youstart to heal, that the people
(01:04):
that you had in your immediatecircles start to dwindle away.
Which we'll get into later.
And also you gotta face yourselfand your own truths, the good,
the bad, and the ugly.
It's unfiltered, emotionallabor, it's work and it's rarely
talked about in the depth thatit deserves.
And there's like entire podcastsabout healing.
(01:25):
For me personally, I have a hardtime listening to them and
staying with them because theydon't get into the messy, ugly
parts enough.
And I think it creates like afalse sense of what a healing
journey should look like.
It can also make people who areactually going through a healing
journey question if they'reactually healing.
In reality, some of the messiestmoments, are part of you trying
(01:48):
to break outta those cycles orunlearn some of those patterns
and that's why it's so messy.
Even when people are trying tobe raw, honest, and unfiltered,
it is very polished and puttogether.
Like scripted tears, kind of.
And you're like, I just totally,had a mental breakdown in my car
and I look like a crazy assvillain right now.
(02:11):
Like there's no way that whatI'm seeing, this social media
person post is real, or evenremotely close to it.
I always envisioned it was gonnabe this really nice moment, but
then it was like me crying in aparking lot eating french fries
blocking people on my Instagram.
No seriously, regardless of age,if you're being exposed to, a
(02:35):
pop culture theme aroundwellness and healing and self
care but then your journey ofwhat you're going through
doesn't look like that you mightnot even really accept yourself
in the process.
Has that ever happened for you?
Yeah, for a while I thought, I'mlosing myself.
A lot of the times I would behealing, but I would be really
hard on myself and think, it'sgotta just be me, i'm making
(02:58):
things difficult for people,cause I was doing work and I was
becoming a better version ofmyself, change comes with that.
I know personally, for thelongest time I was like on this
bandwagon of I have to have areally good morning routine, I
really bought into this ideathat it had to be this like very
(03:21):
structured, idealized,aesthetically pleasing routine
that you had to have.
And like, I'm not like aconsistent routine kind of
person.
So like, I just kept failing atit, like I gotta journal and I
gotta meditate and I shouldstretch and I should drink tea
with lemon and ginger and honey,and I should do all my
(03:43):
gratitudes.
I felt really overwhelmed bythis idea of this routine, which
was supposed to be, part of thehealing.
Yeah.
And it actually made me feelworse.
And then I had to get to thepoint where I was like, yeah, I
call bullshit on all of this.
I had to like shift my ownmindset and find a way to have a
(04:03):
healthy start to my day thathelped me prepare and feel
better as I move through my day.
That wasn't this kind of pictureperfect, five step morning
routine that would make you feellike the glow up goddess every
day.
I've never been structuredenough to have anything like
that.
Funny enough, I actually foundthat for me, doing something
(04:25):
very simple at night is whereit's at.
Part of like in my emotionalmaturity and growth was learning
how to properly take care ofmyself and my house, which I do
before I go to bed as a routine.
For you, it sounds likeenvironmental, there's so many
different ways to practiceself-care.
That's the part that I wastrying to get to is I didn't
realize that that was part ofself-care.
(04:45):
I thought that was anobligation.
And now I have thisunderstanding of like, no, it's
actually part of like creatingan environment that you wanna
wake up to.
Get yourself ready to be in amore relaxed state.
All right, so we're gonna gothrough a list of
unconventional, creative, andsometimes downright weird, but
it works healing methods thatpeople use to process emotional
(05:08):
pain and reconnect withthemselves.
So for these unconventionalhealing methods.
Have you or would you though?
Screaming therapy, aka primalscream.
You go into the woods or yourcar and you scream your soul
out.
Yeah, like just screaming,letting it out.
It's just a nice way toverbalize emotion and release it
(05:30):
and let it move through you.
It sounds wild, but it literallyhelps release pent up energy and
trauma from your nervous system.
Yes.
And you can feel it too, likewhen you scream.
Really intensely, like youalmost feel like a weight is
lifted.
Along the same lines, smashingplates, rage rooms.
I'm seeing those pop upeverywhere.
These are places like, safelydestroy a bunch of shit like
(05:53):
TVs, dishes, and then you beatthe crap out of it and you just
destroy it into pieces.
Rage rooms are such a greatbusiness model.
Yeah, we should go to one.
It's weirdly cathartic and it'sbetter to destroy stuff in a
safe, intentional environmentthan stuff in your home.
And it's also a metaphor forlike letting go.
(06:13):
Alright, what about ecstaticdance?
So this is dancing freelywithout choreography or
judgment.
We also like to call itinterpretive dance.
It's like therapy with sweat andSpotify, and then a lot of
crying mid song and then joy.
I do this quite often, but Idon't cry.
Yeah.
(06:34):
I also don't cry.
And there's research on this,like moving your body and just
movement.
Aligns with this idea of likemoving energy through you,
stagnant energy that we holdonto.
But it is great for everything,your physical health, your
mental health, your emotionalhealth.
And just to have fun with it.
I like to do it as like a joyfulthing, or sometimes I'll put on
(06:54):
like nineties classics that arereally cringey and I'll sing
while I'm washing the dishes.
It's so much fun and it justbrings like this little life
back into me, especially if I'vehad like a really draining day.
Okay.
What about forest bathing?
This is a Japanese practice ofsimply being in the forest.
No phones, no agenda.
(07:15):
It's meant to reduce your stresshormones and increase your
feelings of connectedness andcalm.
And I can totally see that1000%.
I spent a lot of time in theforest, a lot of time in the
forest alone.
I don't know where this forestis that you've been to.
You mean the mountains?
Yeah, that's a forest.
Sure.
Okay.
Nature.
We are surrounded by threedifferent national forests.
(07:39):
I do love the idea of like, inJapan,'cause they do it in like
these beautiful bamboo forests.
The idea of how peaceful thatis.
There's just something reallygrounding about being in those
spaces.
Cuddle therapy, professionalcuddlers exist.
I did not know this.
It's a platonic consent basedtherapeutic touch to help with
(07:59):
loneliness and emotionalregulation.
Bonus, it releases oxytocin,into our system, which is our
feel good bonding hormone.
So cuddle therapy, have you orwould you though?
I have never, I guess I justfound out what my next job is.
Let's take it down a notch, likejust hugging.
Like when you hug somebody, Ithink it's for 60 seconds, your
(08:21):
brain sends a signal and youstart to release those feel good
hormones that actually calm yoursystem.
So just hugging people you careabout, you know, you love, has
the same impact, so you don'tneed to hire a professional
cuddler.
So I wouldn't hire a personprofessionally to cuddle me,
maybe there's people out therethat really need that.
They do, some experts recommendaiming for at least eight hugs
(08:46):
to maintain mental health andemotional wellbeing a day.
Alright, laughter yoga, socombining laughter exercises
with deep breathing.
I've seen this, I've never doneit, even fake laughing can
trigger real joy, breakingemotional tension.
You and I use a lot of laughteras a healing modality.
I dunno about this, yes,laughter is healing.
(09:08):
Let's see.
No, that just scares me.
I just think villain or likecrackpot, one or the other.
I'm like, this person, they hittheir thresholds.
Oh my god.
So if I'm seeing you and you'resitting there forcing laughter
while you're doing yoga.
I'm leaving that establishment.
(09:29):
Just go to a comedy show, noteverything needs to be combined.
Alright, sound baths this is abig one.
This one's gained a lot oftraction lately.
You're immersed in thevibrations of sound.
So this is usually singingbowls.
People use tuning forks.
They use bells, chimes, gongs,which feels like a lot.
(09:50):
People report emotionalreleases, sometimes visions or a
sense of deep calm.
This has also been studied a lotin like mindful practices and I
personally do like sound baths.
I like the bowls, like singingbowls.
And I have one for my ownpersonal use.
One thing that I learned fromusing it that was unexpected is
that.
You get this, very powerfulsense of clarity.
(10:12):
It's almost like you can thinkthrough these invisible noises
around us that we don't evennotice all the time.
I started listening tofrequencies and there's a lot of
like sound therapeutic researchthat is pretty cool to consider.
Okay, so yay.
Psychedelic assisted therapy,this is very controversial.
(10:33):
So these are, this is like usingsubstances, ketamine, MDMA, like
microdosing, in a guidedtherapeutic setting where it's
legal.
And, what they're saying aboutthis is that it's shown to
reduce symptoms of depression,PTSD and emotional trauma, that
they found in clinical studies.
This is fascinating to mebecause I also, watch this on
(10:55):
reality TV a lot.
They talk about this, peoplegoing to, ketamine therapy.
I have not tried it and I don'tknow that I would though.
For me personally, I really havea hard time the idea of anything
that's psychedelic.
Well, I think the scary part issome of this is like mail order
stuff.
Like you can get this sent toyou.
Nope.
Alright, moving on artdestruction.
(11:15):
So this is the idea where youcreate something like a
sculpture or a painting,something artistic, and then you
destroy it as a ritual release.
I love this, especially if it'ssomething that you're like
creating to symbolize somethingthat was traumatic to you.
It could be great as like amental exercise to put it into a
physical form that then you canthen like, destroy.
(11:39):
Yeah.
'cause then it, it helps you tofeel surprisingly powerful
because then that holds no powerover you.
I feel like we've done versionsof this as children.
Like where you write a letterand you tear it up, or you draw
something on a piece of paperand you burn it or whatever.
So it's just taking that to likethe next level.
Alright,what about screamSinging in the car, putting on
(12:01):
your angsty teen playlist andbelt it out?
A mix of nostalgia, release, andfree therapy via dashboard
acoustics.
Teen playlist.
How dare you?
I still do this every week.
Sometimes it's part of mymorning routine.
It really is.
A little rage against themachine.
"f you, I won't do what you toldme." And then you're like, do,
(12:26):
do, do, do.
Hey, Becca! Along for the restof your day.
Alright, and last but not least,voice note journaling.
So this is talking to yourselfvia voice memo instead of
writing.
It's super helpful for peoplewho process emotions better out
loud and need to talk throughit, but aren't into therapy yet.
(12:46):
I would say even if you are intotherapy, it could be a very
helpful tool.
I do love doing this because Iverbally process things a lot.
I listen back to it to try togain perspective, it's very
helpful.
It's almost like you're your ownfriend in that moment.
It gives you clarity andconscientious understanding of
what needs to be shared inrooms.
(13:08):
Mm-hmm.
I'm a big fan.
Maybe someday I'll turn my voicenotes into a book.
Hey, you never know.
You never know.
Being a woman in the worldtoday.
Yeah.
It takes everything you got.
I don't know, is there, is therea wrong way to heal?
Uh, yeah, don't assaultsomebody?
Well, I mean, yeah, that's agiven.
Yeah.
Don't go smashing up carwindows.
Don't go harming people orputting yourself in jail and
(13:29):
you're good.
There's a lot of genderedmessaging in healing.
I noticed a lot of the timesthat what gets put on women a
lot is like, you should just beable to handle your emotions.
On the other hand, I'll dropthis little nugget for men.
Alright, get ready men, becauseyou're about to get a nugget.
You're about to get a nugget.
I think it's a big disservicethat men are discouraged from
acknowledging that they haveexperienced hardship and they
(13:51):
have pain from that hardship.
Yeah.
And I think it does adisservice, to our societies, to
our cultures.
Men need to be encouraged tolean into doing the work, to
lean in to include emotionalwellness and emotional security
and safety and understandinginto what is considered peak
performance.
(14:11):
For men in particular or maleidentifying, there is, it's like
a sub culture, if you will.
It's like if you have peoplearound you that are also on a
healing journey or have donesome healing or have gone to
therapy, then it's more likelythat you might be encouraged to
(14:32):
do the same because that feelslike a safe conversation that's
happening in your circles.
On second season of Survival ofthe thickest her best friend
needs therapy she's like, yougotta go to therapy.
And all his best girlfriends aretelling him about therapy'cause
it's much more acceptable andtalked about in the female
circles.
And then he's like, we don'ttalk about that in our male
(14:53):
circles.
So when he finally brings it up.
He learns that everybody in hismale circle has gone to therapy
or is going to therapy, and oneof them is even a therapist.
Yeah.
Which is hilarious.
But he, he's like, what thehell?
There's like shame around theconcept that a man needs help
and it's like you're also humanand you're not alone in your
(15:14):
experience.
Yeah.
But there's not a lot that ismarketed to men.
I love that they talk about thatin that show, because especially
for men of color.
It's even harder because you'retalking about it even less
because of all the things aroundlike male machismo and stuff
like that.
Depending on the culturalbackground.
Yeah, it's true.
So let's talk about like thesocial media part, but what does
(15:37):
it actually feel like.
Is there an end point to healingor do you believe that it's
ongoing?
I think it's definitely, not aone size fits all answer.
I have technically been going totherapy off and on since I was
12.
Mm-hmm.
That was court ordered and then.
(15:57):
Yes, it was.
Yes it was and you know what,she was one of my favorite
therapists ever.
She bought me this really littlecute jade elephant that I still
have.
It took me years until I endedup going back to therapy as an
adult.
And then going back to therapyas an adult helped me really
become the person that I amtoday.
So I think healing for me lookslike teetering between needing a
(16:20):
tuneup every once in a while.
Healing is a consistent choice.
You're aware that there arecertain things that can cause
you to make bad decisions ormaybe put you in positions that
make you feel uncomfortable ortrigger things from the past.
I think healing is a consistentchoice.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there's an ebb and flowto it, on different levels, but
(16:43):
I also have experienced it assomething that's ongoing and
continuous.
I think once you open that boxand you build the awareness, it
doesn't stop, it doesn't end,whether you're in therapy or
not.
I've gone to therapysituationally, I will say,
because certain points in mylife where I felt like I needed
(17:04):
that extra support for specificthings, and then I would go to
therapy and I've seen differentkinds of therapists for
different things.
But even being out of therapy,I'm still on the journey of
healing because there's so muchthat goes into, once you have
this awareness.
And like you said, right now,you're making choices and they
(17:25):
conscious choices.
And in order to continue on thatpath and to continue creating
positive change for yourself,you have to put the effort in.
And I think there are certainthings that you may have to heal
from or work through in yourlife that might feel more short
term.
But when I think about like howI want to be in the world.
(17:46):
That's forever, that's like forevery day I'm alive on this
planet and beyond.
I feel like I deserve to putintention into that.
So in all of this, like whatyou're touching on, I think
really speaks to, when you starthealing and recognizing certain
(18:10):
patterns in your life, you alsohave to start thinking about
boundaries and how you set them.
How you have and haven't doneit, but boundaries are messy
too.
Sometimes you set a boundary andthat makes things feel messier
before it feels better.
Have you ever had thatexperience?
Yeah, all the time, everyboundary.
(18:32):
Because the thing aboutboundaries is that we forget
that even though we set them,that doesn't mean that other
people are gonna be happy aboutthem.
No.
In fact, it inconveniences otherpeople who have benefited from
you not having boundaries.
There's a quote that was goingaround for a while that was
like, if people are upset withyou about your boundaries, it's
because your new boundariesdon't benefit them anymore.
But yeah, like people will reactto your boundaries, even the
(18:56):
people who maybe have the bestintentions, because sometimes
they don't even realize how muchthey've been benefiting from
your lack of boundaries.
Let's just drop some knowledgein there: 60% of adults report
having difficulty setting ormaintaining boundaries.
68% of individuals reportfeeling more confident in their
personal boundaries afterattending therapy.
85% of people feel stressed whentheir boundaries are
(19:18):
disregarded.
That's real.
That should be a hundred, thatshould be like 99%.
45% of individuals experienceguilt after establishing
boundaries.
Also, I think, we don't talkabout this enough in familial
relationships, those are thehardest ones.
Most of your healing journey isgonna require you to set some
(19:40):
real boundaries with yourfamily, and people you consider
family.
There's cultures that don'tbelieve in it at all, that like,
don't believe in therapy, thatdon't believe in healing.
It's like, what do you need toheal?
No, no, no, no.
Just keep your head down andkeep, keep going, keep going,
keep moving forward.
When you get to a place whereyou are like ready to set those
boundaries, woo, those can bepainful.
(20:03):
Those are gonna test you so hardand you're gonna feel so guilty
for setting them.
64% of adults say they ignoresetting their boundaries to
please others, including theirfamily.
And then sometimes you setboundaries that you know are
healthy boundaries at work.
Right.
And then those are hard too,because you can set the boundary
and then you doubt yourselfimmediately because you're then
(20:25):
reverting back to this oldpattern of being a people
pleaser.
And I feel like at work, that'sa big thing, is like people want
to be liked.
Yeah, it's part of networkingand being able to climb up the
corporate ladder.
I also think too, the thingabout work dynamics that make it
really hard to set boundaries ismost people start at the bottom.
They're not starting at amid-level or executive position.
(20:48):
And so when you start at anentry level role, their
expectation is that you will dowhat you are told to do.
And you should be able to beflexible and bendable and
malleable, and you should beable to learn everything.
And when you start at thatlevel, it becomes, difficult for
people to start to shift into adifferent kind of mindset, to
have established boundaries.
(21:10):
And it also depends on theenvironment of the company as
well.
Or the language, like how theworkplace uses key words as a
way to try and get around yourboundaries.
Like, oh, but you really need tobe a team player.
Yeah.
And if you're not clear on whatboundaries are and what your
boundaries are.
You're gonna fall right intothat trap and think, oh, okay,
(21:30):
well I'm not giving enough, orI'm not being, quote unquote a
team player but when you startgetting really clear on your
boundaries, you're like, oh hellno.
Like being a team player hasnothing to do with what I'm
saying.
Yeah.
When an executive or hire says,we're like a family here, run.
I feel like when people saythat, they mean the bus, but
what they actually mean is theyhave no boundaries.
(21:50):
What were we just saying?
Like family boundaries are thehardest ones to set.
They're the hardest one to set,and those are the ones that you
most wanna please.
I do think you can, there can behealthy workplace dynamics, and
closeness, close relationshipswith your colleagues if you have
a healthy environment but it'snot familial.
It should never be, you're notrelated to these people.
I just met you today, Barbara,you're not my family.
(22:14):
Have you ever had a boundaryhangover moment, like a time
that maybe you regretted settinga boundary and it's probably a
hard boundary, but you knew itwas the right thing to do and at
some point you felt good aboutit, but when you initially did
it, you had that hangover momentof like, oh shit, I shouldn't
have done that.
All the time, setting boundariesis like the antithesis of my
(22:37):
existence.
It literally goes against thechemical composition of my soul.
I want everyone to be happy.
I think, I'm definitely not inmy people pleasing era.
I don't think you ever were.
Yeah, it's questionable, it'sdefinitely questionable.
I think there probably have beenmoments where I probably leaned
(23:01):
more into being a peoplepleaser, but I don't think it's
my default setting.
No, I don't think so.
No, that's fair.
Yeah, I'm always surprised whenlike I'm having a conversation
with somebody and it kind of istouching on like boundaries and
whatnot, and my instant responseis like.
(23:21):
Just say no.
You don't need to explainyourself.
The answer is no.
And people are like, what?
Yeah, I can't do that.
And I get like a hundred excuseswhy that's too hard or they
can't do it, or they won't doit, or they feel uncomfortable
doing it.
And in my brain I'm like, whatdo you mean?
Like it's just No.
But not everybody thinks likethat.
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
(23:45):
Boundary setting is soessential, though I don't, I've
come to really like myself somuch, i'm the best.
I really like who I am, I loveme.
I do.
And I love that for me.
And I do love that for me.
And it took a lot of freakingwork to get here.
Now that I'm here, I can say nomuch easier but I do still my
(24:07):
people please tendencies.
Well, now that's in vocabularywasn't where It wasn't even,
yeah, it wasn't, didn't evenexist.
And that's another thing aboutpeople pleasing that's
extremely, hard, is that whenyou create that dynamic without
setting healthy boundaries, youare making yourself available at
every moment of your life.
And we're not always at ahundred at every moment of our
lives.
And what that means is thatyou're betraying yourself when
(24:29):
you're showing up for everyoneelse all the time.
And when people are like, oh,but she's so dependable, it's
like, oh, great, at what cost isshe so dependable to you?
And is it also the question ofthat you are also that?
Or the person, right?
And so I think that settingboundaries help me to
acknowledge those particulartraits so that I can then
(24:50):
identify, those in myself andthose in my most valued
relationships.
It's also in the same vein withthis idea of setting boundaries
and learning how to say no.
There's also the unlearning overapologizing for things.
I've had more women have anexpectation of me apologizing
(25:11):
than men.
Which is, which is saying a lot.
'Cause I've had some veryinteresting interactions with
people and, and because I'm okaywith no, I will hold the line.
You're in a position ofleadership, so it's interesting
that you say that women areharder on you.
Yeah.
In a position of leadership,because I feel that I've had it
more from men and I have beenprimarily in like mid-level
(25:35):
roles.
The higher up you get as awoman, the harder people are on
you because they have anexpectation that you are going
to be soft.
And that you're going to bowdown and that you're gonna be
apologetic and that you're gonnabe palatable and that you're
gonna be tame and toned down andall of these things.
But I'm curious to know, in yourexperience, has it been from
(25:58):
more women or from more men?
It's been from both.
And I think that's probably oneof the biggest shockers in the
trajectory of my career is thatas you go through it and you
move up in ranks, the number ofwomen that you weren't expecting
(26:20):
to be that way with you, iswild.
Yeah.
You're like, wow, we're supposedto be lifting each other up,
we're supposed to be empoweringeach other, we're supposed to be
supporting each other.
And that doesn't happen at allbecause they also have these,
ingrained, unrealisticexpectations of what your
behavior should be and how youshould carry yourself.
Everything I've said and done,if I were a man, nobody would've
(26:41):
said anything to me about it.
You'd have like a salary of$450,000.
They would never question myemail.
It would never question my"no"and I, and sometimes no, it's
just no.
It's just not gonna happen.
And there's reason behind it.
Yeah.
I don't just randomly say no.
No, you have data to supportyour reasons.
But just the act of saying no isnot acceptable.
(27:01):
For a long time I reallyremoved, sorry, from my
vocabulary.
I know you told me to do thatand I just couldn't, I tried, I
did my best.
Yeah, I wouldn't, I would usedifferent language, but I would
never say I'm sorry because Irealized how much I was saying
it just out of habit and I waslike, no, I don't wanna do that
(27:22):
anymore.
What about breakups?
Goodbyes and grieving who youused to be?
What do you think has been thehardest goodbye in your healing?
This is gonna be controversial.
Up until my mid twenties, Ithought the hardest goodbyes
were my ex-boyfriends but thenin my work with my most recent
(27:46):
therapist, I realized that someof the hardest goodbyes I've
ever had that caused the mostdistrust were the endings of my
best female friendships.
And that they hurt far more thanany ex-boyfriend.
I've had three different reallygreat friendships with females
(28:11):
that burned out naturally.
But I had one that really hurt,was really harsh, and it ended
pretty terribly.
And then I had another one thatjust didn't end, but shifted in
a way that I didn't anticipate.
And that really hurt too.
How about you?
(28:32):
Wow.
Way to jump right outta that.
I'm like, I ain't gonna go intodetails.
Look at our setting boundaries.
I think I've had many, and I,and this is one of the things
that is part of the messy bits,right?
Is like, there's so many shifts,like saying goodbye to versions
of ourselves.
Saying goodbye to people in ourlives.
Whether it's a mutual choice,like you both agree, or it's a
(28:56):
decision that you have to makefor the relationship, for
yourself to say goodbye tofriendships and colleagues and
like to shift all thesedynamics.
That shit's hard.
One of the hardest, for me waswalking away from people who I
know were not good for me andwere not good for my daughter,
(29:17):
who was a child at the time.
Oh yeah.
And these were some of thepeople that, at one point in my
life would've been like ride ordie, one in particular.
And at one point probablywould've been like, yeah, I
trust my life with this person.
What really got me was at somepoint I was like, our values do
(29:38):
not align.
Yeah.
What I value as family andfriendship and love and support,
you do not.
I had to choose myself and I hadto choose, I.
Who I wanted around my daughter,who was very young at the time,
and how I wanted her to be caredfor and influenced in life.
(29:59):
And I didn't want that for heror for me.
Yeah.
And that sucks because it's verypainful for you.
And sometimes it's more painfulfor you than it is for them.
I don't know what that person'sexperience was, but they became
very bitter, very angry.
They really lashed out at mereally ugly.
They weren't there for me when Iwas like sick and at my worst.
(30:23):
It just showed so many sides ofthem that I didn't know existed.
And it kind of goes back to whatwe were saying earlier, is that
like people will react to yourboundaries based on how they
benefited from them.
Yeah, and sometimes you outgrowthem.
I was very heartbroken by thatfor a long time.
And once I took my ownaccountability in it, I was able
(30:44):
to let it go completely and walkaway 100% without regret.
When it's a kind of relationshipdynamic like this, like Andi's
mentioning where it has run itscourse.
They will 75 to 85% of the timechallenge your boundaries.
And I think that's usually theindicator where it's the
breaking point where you'reseeing, and it's like probably
(31:05):
the most painful part.
You kind of have to wake up tothe, to the reality that this
person, like Andy mentioned, isnot capable of meeting you where
you currently are.
Yeah, and that's the other partof it is like, when you're on a
messy healing journey, you willchange and grow inevitably.
And people are not gonna changeand grow with you.
Not always.
(31:25):
No.
And It might also be thatthey're really comfortable where
they are.
They don't see anything wrongwith their lifestyle and more
power to them, let them livewhere they live.
But if you feel like you'regrowing and you're expanding
past those perimeters thatthey've set for themselves to
feel safe.
Then you gotta do what you gottado.
And I think one of my biggestaha moments, intertwined with
that was also me grieving myselfand me grieving the version of
(31:51):
myself that used to exist.
Because I internalized thatsomehow everything falling apart
was my fault.
And it wasn't.
And so I had to really untanglethose two things.
And look at, I'm changing andgrowing and developing and
learning from all the mistakes Ihave made up until that point in
(32:12):
my life.
I had to grieve myself in theprocess, and then also had to
grieve the loss of this veryimportant relationship.
Yeah.
But they needed to beacknowledged separately.
And going through all that justtakes you right into therapy.
I'm still surprised at how manypeople have never gone to
(32:33):
therapy'cause I feel like, andthis is just because I'm also
surrounded by a lot of peoplewho are very open to many
different modalities of healing.
What's something therapy helpedyou realize that you actually,
that actually made your lifeharder?
Before it got better.
One of the things that therapyhelped me realize that actually
made my life harder before I gotbetter was knowing when to stop
(32:55):
being a giving person.
And I use this terminology,givers and takers, like, people
pleasers, people that wanna giveconsistently be in service of
others versus somebody that seesan opportunity, wants to take
advantage of that opportunity,or sees a way that they can
benefit from another person andloves to lean into benefiting
from that other person.
Learning accountability was thehardest thing for me to grasp as
(33:20):
like you are causing your owndiscomfort.
What about you?
What's something therapy helpedyou realize that actually made
your life harder before it gotbetter?
Nothing, i'm just kidding.
I think similarly, theaccountability piece is really
important.
The idea of exploring your rolein your own life.
(33:42):
If you're trying to accomplishsomething and it's not
happening, then it's not saying,well, what am I doing wrong?
But it's saying.
What role am I playing in this?
Like what decisions am I making,that I keep ending up in this
place?
And understanding that from adifferent perspective that's
(34:03):
more kind and compassionate andcurious than harsh.
Learning how to have that voicesoften a little bit and just to
approach things from curiosity.
I think it was harder at firstbecause that's a hard pattern to
break.
It is very uncomfortable to pullyourself out of those situations
(34:24):
and really look like with theeagle eye, this wider view as to
what's happening.
That's the thing about likegrowth and healing and change is
that like, it's not a like, oh,I did this thing, boom, now it's
fixed.
It's like a constant unlearningof all these things.
And that's the uncomfortablepart.
(34:44):
It's like the next day you goright back to the same pattern
because you've been doing it forhowever many years.
Yeah, it's like a reflex.
Yeah, and it takes time tocreate a new way of doing
something or thinking aboutsomething.
And that makes it reallydifficult, you know?
And then it's like, I think it'sthe back and forth, like when
(35:06):
you go to therapy, if you'venever been, your therapist
should prepare you for the factthat it's going to feel worse
before it feels better.
Yeah.
Because one of the things thatwe forget as human beings is
that a lot of the choices wemake are coping mechanisms so
that we don't have to sit withour feelings.
And so when you go to therapy,you're basically allowing this
(35:26):
person to come into your homeand unpack all your crap and
leave it there, and you're notgonna feel great about it.
And you gotta sit with it.
Yeah.
And it's building yourself-awareness, but it's also
emotionally exhausting.
Yes.
At the same time.
Especially if you've never doneit before.
Going through something in yourlife that you haven't been
through before, you've neverunpacked before.
To add to the emotionalexhausting thing.
(35:48):
For people who are going totherapy for the first time, I do
just wanna say like.
One of the things I experiencedis I didn't wanna go out as
much, I didn't wanna do a bunchof things because I was so
emotionally exhausted.
That unpacking is heavy.
You don't realize it, but it'slike on a subconscious level, it
drains the energy out of you.
That's where the wellness spacedoes kind of thrive, those
(36:08):
little practices do really helpto alleviate some of that
heaviness that you end upfeeling from finally facing
years of repressed emotion.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And for me, I've done a lot ofother things that have been just
as impactful for my healing.
I'm a mystic.
I like to explore and dabble.
(36:28):
Like I've been to psychics, I'vebeen to coaches, I've been to
like energy healers.
Like I've explored a lot ofother things and I've had
experiences that have helped mehave amazing breakthroughs, and
realizations in life, that havealso been really essential to my
(36:49):
healing journey.
We call that adult math.
It's real.
It's real.
So, if you're in the thick ofit, wondering why healing feels
like heartbreak confusion orthat one DIY haircut that went
terribly wrong.
You're not broken babe.
You're just rebootingemotionally with questionable
wifi.
(37:10):
Whether you're scream singing inthe car or you're ghosting your
therapist out of avoidance.
Just know healing is not linear,but it is meme worthy and
probably deserves its own.
Spotify wrapped.
Send this episode to that onefriend who's deep in the healing
trenches.
And remember, if you'respiraling, at least spiral with
snacks and boundaries.
(37:30):
Until next time.
Bye bye.
Welcome back to Andy and Mitchwhere we get real laugh hard,
and sometimes cry in the carwhile doing it.
I'm Andy, your resident Gen Xelder.
And I'm Mitch, technicallyyounger and proudly spiraling
with intention on this so-calledhealing journey.
In today's episode, we'reunpacking the real unglamorous,
deeply human side of healing.
(00:22):
Let's dive in.
The hot mess express, y'all.
Healing is gritty andtechnically that's where all the
magic happens, but it's in allthe ugly parts.
When you hear the word healingor people talk about healing,
the images that come up for meare like very polished
Instagramable images.
(00:43):
That it's like you go into theyoga class, a hot mess, come out
like on your super glow up.
And you come out a changedperson, but that's not how it
is.
Healing is not glamorous, it'snot polished, and it's not
picture perfect.
Let's talk about the amount ofawkward moments you have when
you're healing.
I didn't realize like when youstart to heal, that the people
(01:04):
that you had in your immediatecircles start to dwindle away.
Which we'll get into later.
And also you gotta face yourselfand your own truths, the good,
the bad, and the ugly.
It's unfiltered, emotionallabor, it's work and it's rarely
talked about in the depth thatit deserves.
And there's like entire podcastsabout healing.
(01:25):
For me personally, I have a hardtime listening to them and
staying with them because theydon't get into the messy, ugly
parts enough.
And I think it creates like afalse sense of what a healing
journey should look like.
It can also make people who areactually going through a healing
journey question if they'reactually healing.
In reality, some of the messiestmoments, are part of you trying
(01:48):
to break outta those cycles orunlearn some of those patterns
and that's why it's so messy.
Even when people are trying tobe raw, honest, and unfiltered,
it is very polished and puttogether.
Like scripted tears, kind of.
And you're like, I just totally,had a mental breakdown in my car
and I look like a crazy assvillain right now.
(02:11):
Like there's no way that whatI'm seeing, this social media
person post is real, or evenremotely close to it.
I always envisioned it was gonnabe this really nice moment, but
then it was like me crying in aparking lot eating french fries
blocking people on my Instagram.
No seriously, regardless of age,if you're being exposed to, a
(02:35):
pop culture theme aroundwellness and healing and self
care but then your journey ofwhat you're going through
doesn't look like that you mightnot even really accept yourself
in the process.
Has that ever happened for you?
Yeah, for a while I thought, I'mlosing myself.
A lot of the times I would behealing, but I would be really
hard on myself and think, it'sgotta just be me, i'm making
(02:58):
things difficult for people,cause I was doing work and I was
becoming a better version ofmyself, change comes with that.
I know personally, for thelongest time I was like on this
bandwagon of I have to have areally good morning routine, I
really bought into this ideathat it had to be this like very
(03:21):
structured, idealized,aesthetically pleasing routine
that you had to have.
And like, I'm not like aconsistent routine kind of
person.
So like, I just kept failing atit, like I gotta journal and I
gotta meditate and I shouldstretch and I should drink tea
with lemon and ginger and honey,and I should do all my
(03:43):
gratitudes.
I felt really overwhelmed bythis idea of this routine, which
was supposed to be, part of thehealing.
Yeah.
And it actually made me feelworse.
And then I had to get to thepoint where I was like, yeah, I
call bullshit on all of this.
I had to like shift my ownmindset and find a way to have a
(04:03):
healthy start to my day thathelped me prepare and feel
better as I move through my day.
That wasn't this kind of pictureperfect, five step morning
routine that would make you feellike the glow up goddess every
day.
I've never been structuredenough to have anything like
that.
Funny enough, I actually foundthat for me, doing something
(04:25):
very simple at night is whereit's at.
Part of like in my emotionalmaturity and growth was learning
how to properly take care ofmyself and my house, which I do
before I go to bed as a routine.
For you, it sounds likeenvironmental, there's so many
different ways to practiceself-care.
That's the part that I wastrying to get to is I didn't
realize that that was part ofself-care.
(04:45):
I thought that was anobligation.
And now I have thisunderstanding of like, no, it's
actually part of like creatingan environment that you wanna
wake up to.
Get yourself ready to be in amore relaxed state.
All right, so we're gonna gothrough a list of
unconventional, creative, andsometimes downright weird, but
it works healing methods thatpeople use to process emotional
(05:08):
pain and reconnect withthemselves.
So for these unconventionalhealing methods.
Have you or would you though?
Screaming therapy, aka primalscream.
You go into the woods or yourcar and you scream your soul
out.
Yeah, like just screaming,letting it out.
It's just a nice way toverbalize emotion and release it
(05:30):
and let it move through you.
It sounds wild, but it literallyhelps release pent up energy and
trauma from your nervous system.
Yes.
And you can feel it too, likewhen you scream.
Really intensely, like youalmost feel like a weight is
lifted.
Along the same lines, smashingplates, rage rooms.
I'm seeing those pop upeverywhere.
These are places like, safelydestroy a bunch of shit like
(05:53):
TVs, dishes, and then you beatthe crap out of it and you just
destroy it into pieces.
Rage rooms are such a greatbusiness model.
Yeah, we should go to one.
It's weirdly cathartic and it'sbetter to destroy stuff in a
safe, intentional environmentthan stuff in your home.
And it's also a metaphor forlike letting go.
(06:13):
Alright, what about ecstaticdance?
So this is dancing freelywithout choreography or
judgment.
We also like to call itinterpretive dance.
It's like therapy with sweat andSpotify, and then a lot of
crying mid song and then joy.
I do this quite often, but Idon't cry.
Yeah.
(06:34):
I also don't cry.
And there's research on this,like moving your body and just
movement.
Aligns with this idea of likemoving energy through you,
stagnant energy that we holdonto.
But it is great for everything,your physical health, your
mental health, your emotionalhealth.
And just to have fun with it.
I like to do it as like a joyfulthing, or sometimes I'll put on
(06:54):
like nineties classics that arereally cringey and I'll sing
while I'm washing the dishes.
It's so much fun and it justbrings like this little life
back into me, especially if I'vehad like a really draining day.
Okay.
What about forest bathing?
This is a Japanese practice ofsimply being in the forest.
No phones, no agenda.
(07:15):
It's meant to reduce your stresshormones and increase your
feelings of connectedness andcalm.
And I can totally see that1000%.
I spent a lot of time in theforest, a lot of time in the
forest alone.
I don't know where this forestis that you've been to.
You mean the mountains?
Yeah, that's a forest.
Sure.
Okay.
Nature.
We are surrounded by threedifferent national forests.
(07:39):
I do love the idea of like, inJapan,'cause they do it in like
these beautiful bamboo forests.
The idea of how peaceful thatis.
There's just something reallygrounding about being in those
spaces.
Cuddle therapy, professionalcuddlers exist.
I did not know this.
It's a platonic consent basedtherapeutic touch to help with
(07:59):
loneliness and emotionalregulation.
Bonus, it releases oxytocin,into our system, which is our
feel good bonding hormone.
So cuddle therapy, have you orwould you though?
I have never, I guess I justfound out what my next job is.
Let's take it down a notch, likejust hugging.
Like when you hug somebody, Ithink it's for 60 seconds, your
(08:21):
brain sends a signal and youstart to release those feel good
hormones that actually calm yoursystem.
So just hugging people you careabout, you know, you love, has
the same impact, so you don'tneed to hire a professional
cuddler.
So I wouldn't hire a personprofessionally to cuddle me,
maybe there's people out therethat really need that.
They do, some experts recommendaiming for at least eight hugs
(08:46):
to maintain mental health andemotional wellbeing a day.
Alright, laughter yoga, socombining laughter exercises
with deep breathing.
I've seen this, I've never doneit, even fake laughing can
trigger real joy, breakingemotional tension.
You and I use a lot of laughteras a healing modality.
I dunno about this, yes,laughter is healing.
(09:08):
Let's see.
No, that just scares me.
I just think villain or likecrackpot, one or the other.
I'm like, this person, they hittheir thresholds.
Oh my god.
So if I'm seeing you and you'resitting there forcing laughter
while you're doing yoga.
I'm leaving that establishment.
(09:29):
Just go to a comedy show, noteverything needs to be combined.
Alright, sound baths this is abig one.
This one's gained a lot oftraction lately.
You're immersed in thevibrations of sound.
So this is usually singingbowls.
People use tuning forks.
They use bells, chimes, gongs,which feels like a lot.
(09:50):
People report emotionalreleases, sometimes visions or a
sense of deep calm.
This has also been studied a lotin like mindful practices and I
personally do like sound baths.
I like the bowls, like singingbowls.
And I have one for my ownpersonal use.
One thing that I learned fromusing it that was unexpected is
that.
You get this, very powerfulsense of clarity.
(10:12):
It's almost like you can thinkthrough these invisible noises
around us that we don't evennotice all the time.
I started listening tofrequencies and there's a lot of
like sound therapeutic researchthat is pretty cool to consider.
Okay, so yay.
Psychedelic assisted therapy,this is very controversial.
(10:33):
So these are, this is like usingsubstances, ketamine, MDMA, like
microdosing, in a guidedtherapeutic setting where it's
legal.
And, what they're saying aboutthis is that it's shown to
reduce symptoms of depression,PTSD and emotional trauma, that
they found in clinical studies.
This is fascinating to mebecause I also, watch this on
(10:55):
reality TV a lot.
They talk about this, peoplegoing to, ketamine therapy.
I have not tried it and I don'tknow that I would though.
For me personally, I really havea hard time the idea of anything
that's psychedelic.
Well, I think the scary part issome of this is like mail order
stuff.
Like you can get this sent toyou.
Nope.
Alright, moving on artdestruction.
(11:15):
So this is the idea where youcreate something like a
sculpture or a painting,something artistic, and then you
destroy it as a ritual release.
I love this, especially if it'ssomething that you're like
creating to symbolize somethingthat was traumatic to you.
It could be great as like amental exercise to put it into a
physical form that then you canthen like, destroy.
(11:39):
Yeah.
'cause then it, it helps you tofeel surprisingly powerful
because then that holds no powerover you.
I feel like we've done versionsof this as children.
Like where you write a letterand you tear it up, or you draw
something on a piece of paperand you burn it or whatever.
So it's just taking that to likethe next level.
Alright,what about screamSinging in the car, putting on
(12:01):
your angsty teen playlist andbelt it out?
A mix of nostalgia, release, andfree therapy via dashboard
acoustics.
Teen playlist.
How dare you?
I still do this every week.
Sometimes it's part of mymorning routine.
It really is.
A little rage against themachine.
"f you, I won't do what you toldme." And then you're like, do,
(12:26):
do, do, do.
Hey, Becca! Along for the restof your day.
Alright, and last but not least,voice note journaling.
So this is talking to yourselfvia voice memo instead of
writing.
It's super helpful for peoplewho process emotions better out
loud and need to talk throughit, but aren't into therapy yet.
(12:46):
I would say even if you are intotherapy, it could be a very
helpful tool.
I do love doing this because Iverbally process things a lot.
I listen back to it to try togain perspective, it's very
helpful.
It's almost like you're your ownfriend in that moment.
It gives you clarity andconscientious understanding of
what needs to be shared inrooms.
(13:08):
Mm-hmm.
I'm a big fan.
Maybe someday I'll turn my voicenotes into a book.
Hey, you never know.
You never know.
Being a woman in the worldtoday.
Yeah.
It takes everything you got.
I don't know, is there, is therea wrong way to heal?
Uh, yeah, don't assaultsomebody?
Well, I mean, yeah, that's agiven.
Yeah.
Don't go smashing up carwindows.
Don't go harming people orputting yourself in jail and
(13:29):
you're good.
There's a lot of genderedmessaging in healing.
I noticed a lot of the timesthat what gets put on women a
lot is like, you should just beable to handle your emotions.
On the other hand, I'll dropthis little nugget for men.
Alright, get ready men, becauseyou're about to get a nugget.
You're about to get a nugget.
I think it's a big disservicethat men are discouraged from
acknowledging that they haveexperienced hardship and they
(13:51):
have pain from that hardship.
Yeah.
And I think it does adisservice, to our societies, to
our cultures.
Men need to be encouraged tolean into doing the work, to
lean in to include emotionalwellness and emotional security
and safety and understandinginto what is considered peak
performance.
(14:11):
For men in particular or maleidentifying, there is, it's like
a sub culture, if you will.
It's like if you have peoplearound you that are also on a
healing journey or have donesome healing or have gone to
therapy, then it's more likelythat you might be encouraged to
(14:32):
do the same because that feelslike a safe conversation that's
happening in your circles.
On second season of Survival ofthe thickest her best friend
needs therapy she's like, yougotta go to therapy.
And all his best girlfriends aretelling him about therapy'cause
it's much more acceptable andtalked about in the female
circles.
And then he's like, we don'ttalk about that in our male
(14:53):
circles.
So when he finally brings it up.
He learns that everybody in hismale circle has gone to therapy
or is going to therapy, and oneof them is even a therapist.
Yeah.
Which is hilarious.
But he, he's like, what thehell?
There's like shame around theconcept that a man needs help
and it's like you're also humanand you're not alone in your
(15:14):
experience.
Yeah.
But there's not a lot that ismarketed to men.
I love that they talk about thatin that show, because especially
for men of color.
It's even harder because you'retalking about it even less
because of all the things aroundlike male machismo and stuff
like that.
Depending on the culturalbackground.
Yeah, it's true.
So let's talk about like thesocial media part, but what does
(15:37):
it actually feel like.
Is there an end point to healingor do you believe that it's
ongoing?
I think it's definitely, not aone size fits all answer.
I have technically been going totherapy off and on since I was
12.
Mm-hmm.
That was court ordered and then.
(15:57):
Yes, it was.
Yes it was and you know what,she was one of my favorite
therapists ever.
She bought me this really littlecute jade elephant that I still
have.
It took me years until I endedup going back to therapy as an
adult.
And then going back to therapyas an adult helped me really
become the person that I amtoday.
So I think healing for me lookslike teetering between needing a
(16:20):
tuneup every once in a while.
Healing is a consistent choice.
You're aware that there arecertain things that can cause
you to make bad decisions ormaybe put you in positions that
make you feel uncomfortable ortrigger things from the past.
I think healing is a consistentchoice.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there's an ebb and flowto it, on different levels, but
(16:43):
I also have experienced it assomething that's ongoing and
continuous.
I think once you open that boxand you build the awareness, it
doesn't stop, it doesn't end,whether you're in therapy or
not.
I've gone to therapysituationally, I will say,
because certain points in mylife where I felt like I needed
(17:04):
that extra support for specificthings, and then I would go to
therapy and I've seen differentkinds of therapists for
different things.
But even being out of therapy,I'm still on the journey of
healing because there's so muchthat goes into, once you have
this awareness.
And like you said, right now,you're making choices and they
(17:25):
conscious choices.
And in order to continue on thatpath and to continue creating
positive change for yourself,you have to put the effort in.
And I think there are certainthings that you may have to heal
from or work through in yourlife that might feel more short
term.
But when I think about like howI want to be in the world.
(17:46):
That's forever, that's like forevery day I'm alive on this
planet and beyond.
I feel like I deserve to putintention into that.
So in all of this, like whatyou're touching on, I think
really speaks to, when you starthealing and recognizing certain
(18:10):
patterns in your life, you alsohave to start thinking about
boundaries and how you set them.
How you have and haven't doneit, but boundaries are messy
too.
Sometimes you set a boundary andthat makes things feel messier
before it feels better.
Have you ever had thatexperience?
Yeah, all the time, everyboundary.
(18:32):
Because the thing aboutboundaries is that we forget
that even though we set them,that doesn't mean that other
people are gonna be happy aboutthem.
No.
In fact, it inconveniences otherpeople who have benefited from
you not having boundaries.
There's a quote that was goingaround for a while that was
like, if people are upset withyou about your boundaries, it's
because your new boundariesdon't benefit them anymore.
But yeah, like people will reactto your boundaries, even the
(18:56):
people who maybe have the bestintentions, because sometimes
they don't even realize how muchthey've been benefiting from
your lack of boundaries.
Let's just drop some knowledgein there: 60% of adults report
having difficulty setting ormaintaining boundaries.
68% of individuals reportfeeling more confident in their
personal boundaries afterattending therapy.
85% of people feel stressed whentheir boundaries are
(19:18):
disregarded.
That's real.
That should be a hundred, thatshould be like 99%.
45% of individuals experienceguilt after establishing
boundaries.
Also, I think, we don't talkabout this enough in familial
relationships, those are thehardest ones.
Most of your healing journey isgonna require you to set some
(19:40):
real boundaries with yourfamily, and people you consider
family.
There's cultures that don'tbelieve in it at all, that like,
don't believe in therapy, thatdon't believe in healing.
It's like, what do you need toheal?
No, no, no, no.
Just keep your head down andkeep, keep going, keep going,
keep moving forward.
When you get to a place whereyou are like ready to set those
boundaries, woo, those can bepainful.
(20:03):
Those are gonna test you so hardand you're gonna feel so guilty
for setting them.
64% of adults say they ignoresetting their boundaries to
please others, including theirfamily.
And then sometimes you setboundaries that you know are
healthy boundaries at work.
Right.
And then those are hard too,because you can set the boundary
and then you doubt yourselfimmediately because you're then
(20:25):
reverting back to this oldpattern of being a people
pleaser.
And I feel like at work, that'sa big thing, is like people want
to be liked.
Yeah, it's part of networkingand being able to climb up the
corporate ladder.
I also think too, the thingabout work dynamics that make it
really hard to set boundaries ismost people start at the bottom.
They're not starting at amid-level or executive position.
(20:48):
And so when you start at anentry level role, their
expectation is that you will dowhat you are told to do.
And you should be able to beflexible and bendable and
malleable, and you should beable to learn everything.
And when you start at thatlevel, it becomes, difficult for
people to start to shift into adifferent kind of mindset, to
have established boundaries.
(21:10):
And it also depends on theenvironment of the company as
well.
Or the language, like how theworkplace uses key words as a
way to try and get around yourboundaries.
Like, oh, but you really need tobe a team player.
Yeah.
And if you're not clear on whatboundaries are and what your
boundaries are.
You're gonna fall right intothat trap and think, oh, okay,
(21:30):
well I'm not giving enough, orI'm not being, quote unquote a
team player but when you startgetting really clear on your
boundaries, you're like, oh hellno.
Like being a team player hasnothing to do with what I'm
saying.
Yeah.
When an executive or hire says,we're like a family here, run.
I feel like when people saythat, they mean the bus, but
what they actually mean is theyhave no boundaries.
(21:50):
What were we just saying?
Like family boundaries are thehardest ones to set.
They're the hardest one to set,and those are the ones that you
most wanna please.
I do think you can, there can behealthy workplace dynamics, and
closeness, close relationshipswith your colleagues if you have
a healthy environment but it'snot familial.
It should never be, you're notrelated to these people.
I just met you today, Barbara,you're not my family.
(22:14):
Have you ever had a boundaryhangover moment, like a time
that maybe you regretted settinga boundary and it's probably a
hard boundary, but you knew itwas the right thing to do and at
some point you felt good aboutit, but when you initially did
it, you had that hangover momentof like, oh shit, I shouldn't
have done that.
All the time, setting boundariesis like the antithesis of my
(22:37):
existence.
It literally goes against thechemical composition of my soul.
I want everyone to be happy.
I think, I'm definitely not inmy people pleasing era.
I don't think you ever were.
Yeah, it's questionable, it'sdefinitely questionable.
I think there probably have beenmoments where I probably leaned
(23:01):
more into being a peoplepleaser, but I don't think it's
my default setting.
No, I don't think so.
No, that's fair.
Yeah, I'm always surprised whenlike I'm having a conversation
with somebody and it kind of istouching on like boundaries and
whatnot, and my instant responseis like.
(23:21):
Just say no.
You don't need to explainyourself.
The answer is no.
And people are like, what?
Yeah, I can't do that.
And I get like a hundred excuseswhy that's too hard or they
can't do it, or they won't doit, or they feel uncomfortable
doing it.
And in my brain I'm like, whatdo you mean?
Like it's just No.
But not everybody thinks likethat.
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
(23:45):
Boundary setting is soessential, though I don't, I've
come to really like myself somuch, i'm the best.
I really like who I am, I loveme.
I do.
And I love that for me.
And I do love that for me.
And it took a lot of freakingwork to get here.
Now that I'm here, I can say nomuch easier but I do still my
(24:07):
people please tendencies.
Well, now that's in vocabularywasn't where It wasn't even,
yeah, it wasn't, didn't evenexist.
And that's another thing aboutpeople pleasing that's
extremely, hard, is that whenyou create that dynamic without
setting healthy boundaries, youare making yourself available at
every moment of your life.
And we're not always at ahundred at every moment of our
lives.
And what that means is thatyou're betraying yourself when
(24:29):
you're showing up for everyoneelse all the time.
And when people are like, oh,but she's so dependable, it's
like, oh, great, at what cost isshe so dependable to you?
And is it also the question ofthat you are also that?
Or the person, right?
And so I think that settingboundaries help me to
acknowledge those particulartraits so that I can then
(24:50):
identify, those in myself andthose in my most valued
relationships.
It's also in the same vein withthis idea of setting boundaries
and learning how to say no.
There's also the unlearning overapologizing for things.
I've had more women have anexpectation of me apologizing
(25:11):
than men.
Which is, which is saying a lot.
'Cause I've had some veryinteresting interactions with
people and, and because I'm okaywith no, I will hold the line.
You're in a position ofleadership, so it's interesting
that you say that women areharder on you.
Yeah.
In a position of leadership,because I feel that I've had it
more from men and I have beenprimarily in like mid-level
(25:35):
roles.
The higher up you get as awoman, the harder people are on
you because they have anexpectation that you are going
to be soft.
And that you're going to bowdown and that you're gonna be
apologetic and that you're gonnabe palatable and that you're
gonna be tame and toned down andall of these things.
But I'm curious to know, in yourexperience, has it been from
(25:58):
more women or from more men?
It's been from both.
And I think that's probably oneof the biggest shockers in the
trajectory of my career is thatas you go through it and you
move up in ranks, the number ofwomen that you weren't expecting
(26:20):
to be that way with you, iswild.
Yeah.
You're like, wow, we're supposedto be lifting each other up,
we're supposed to be empoweringeach other, we're supposed to be
supporting each other.
And that doesn't happen at allbecause they also have these,
ingrained, unrealisticexpectations of what your
behavior should be and how youshould carry yourself.
Everything I've said and done,if I were a man, nobody would've
(26:41):
said anything to me about it.
You'd have like a salary of$450,000.
They would never question myemail.
It would never question my"no"and I, and sometimes no, it's
just no.
It's just not gonna happen.
And there's reason behind it.
Yeah.
I don't just randomly say no.
No, you have data to supportyour reasons.
But just the act of saying no isnot acceptable.
(27:01):
For a long time I reallyremoved, sorry, from my
vocabulary.
I know you told me to do thatand I just couldn't, I tried, I
did my best.
Yeah, I wouldn't, I would usedifferent language, but I would
never say I'm sorry because Irealized how much I was saying
it just out of habit and I waslike, no, I don't wanna do that
(27:22):
anymore.
What about breakups?
Goodbyes and grieving who youused to be?
What do you think has been thehardest goodbye in your healing?
This is gonna be controversial.
Up until my mid twenties, Ithought the hardest goodbyes
were my ex-boyfriends but thenin my work with my most recent
(27:46):
therapist, I realized that someof the hardest goodbyes I've
ever had that caused the mostdistrust were the endings of my
best female friendships.
And that they hurt far more thanany ex-boyfriend.
I've had three different reallygreat friendships with females
(28:11):
that burned out naturally.
But I had one that really hurt,was really harsh, and it ended
pretty terribly.
And then I had another one thatjust didn't end, but shifted in
a way that I didn't anticipate.
And that really hurt too.
How about you?
(28:32):
Wow.
Way to jump right outta that.
I'm like, I ain't gonna go intodetails.
Look at our setting boundaries.
I think I've had many, and I,and this is one of the things
that is part of the messy bits,right?
Is like, there's so many shifts,like saying goodbye to versions
of ourselves.
Saying goodbye to people in ourlives.
Whether it's a mutual choice,like you both agree, or it's a
(28:56):
decision that you have to makefor the relationship, for
yourself to say goodbye tofriendships and colleagues and
like to shift all thesedynamics.
That shit's hard.
One of the hardest, for me waswalking away from people who I
know were not good for me andwere not good for my daughter,
(29:17):
who was a child at the time.
Oh yeah.
And these were some of thepeople that, at one point in my
life would've been like ride ordie, one in particular.
And at one point probablywould've been like, yeah, I
trust my life with this person.
What really got me was at somepoint I was like, our values do
(29:38):
not align.
Yeah.
What I value as family andfriendship and love and support,
you do not.
I had to choose myself and I hadto choose, I.
Who I wanted around my daughter,who was very young at the time,
and how I wanted her to be caredfor and influenced in life.
(29:59):
And I didn't want that for heror for me.
Yeah.
And that sucks because it's verypainful for you.
And sometimes it's more painfulfor you than it is for them.
I don't know what that person'sexperience was, but they became
very bitter, very angry.
They really lashed out at mereally ugly.
They weren't there for me when Iwas like sick and at my worst.
(30:23):
It just showed so many sides ofthem that I didn't know existed.
And it kind of goes back to whatwe were saying earlier, is that
like people will react to yourboundaries based on how they
benefited from them.
Yeah, and sometimes you outgrowthem.
I was very heartbroken by thatfor a long time.
And once I took my ownaccountability in it, I was able
(30:44):
to let it go completely and walkaway 100% without regret.
When it's a kind of relationshipdynamic like this, like Andi's
mentioning where it has run itscourse.
They will 75 to 85% of the timechallenge your boundaries.
And I think that's usually theindicator where it's the
breaking point where you'reseeing, and it's like probably
(31:05):
the most painful part.
You kind of have to wake up tothe, to the reality that this
person, like Andy mentioned, isnot capable of meeting you where
you currently are.
Yeah, and that's the other partof it is like, when you're on a
messy healing journey, you willchange and grow inevitably.
And people are not gonna changeand grow with you.
Not always.
(31:25):
No.
And It might also be thatthey're really comfortable where
they are.
They don't see anything wrongwith their lifestyle and more
power to them, let them livewhere they live.
But if you feel like you'regrowing and you're expanding
past those perimeters thatthey've set for themselves to
feel safe.
Then you gotta do what you gottado.
And I think one of my biggestaha moments, intertwined with
that was also me grieving myselfand me grieving the version of
(31:51):
myself that used to exist.
Because I internalized thatsomehow everything falling apart
was my fault.
And it wasn't.
And so I had to really untanglethose two things.
And look at, I'm changing andgrowing and developing and
learning from all the mistakes Ihave made up until that point in
(32:12):
my life.
I had to grieve myself in theprocess, and then also had to
grieve the loss of this veryimportant relationship.
Yeah.
But they needed to beacknowledged separately.
And going through all that justtakes you right into therapy.
I'm still surprised at how manypeople have never gone to
(32:33):
therapy'cause I feel like, andthis is just because I'm also
surrounded by a lot of peoplewho are very open to many
different modalities of healing.
What's something therapy helpedyou realize that you actually,
that actually made your lifeharder?
Before it got better.
One of the things that therapyhelped me realize that actually
made my life harder before I gotbetter was knowing when to stop
(32:55):
being a giving person.
And I use this terminology,givers and takers, like, people
pleasers, people that wanna giveconsistently be in service of
others versus somebody that seesan opportunity, wants to take
advantage of that opportunity,or sees a way that they can
benefit from another person andloves to lean into benefiting
from that other person.
Learning accountability was thehardest thing for me to grasp as
(33:20):
like you are causing your owndiscomfort.
What about you?
What's something therapy helpedyou realize that actually made
your life harder before it gotbetter?
Nothing, i'm just kidding.
I think similarly, theaccountability piece is really
important.
The idea of exploring your rolein your own life.
(33:42):
If you're trying to accomplishsomething and it's not
happening, then it's not saying,well, what am I doing wrong?
But it's saying.
What role am I playing in this?
Like what decisions am I making,that I keep ending up in this
place?
And understanding that from adifferent perspective that's
(34:03):
more kind and compassionate andcurious than harsh.
Learning how to have that voicesoften a little bit and just to
approach things from curiosity.
I think it was harder at firstbecause that's a hard pattern to
break.
It is very uncomfortable to pullyourself out of those situations
(34:24):
and really look like with theeagle eye, this wider view as to
what's happening.
That's the thing about likegrowth and healing and change is
that like, it's not a like, oh,I did this thing, boom, now it's
fixed.
It's like a constant unlearningof all these things.
And that's the uncomfortablepart.
(34:44):
It's like the next day you goright back to the same pattern
because you've been doing it forhowever many years.
Yeah, it's like a reflex.
Yeah, and it takes time tocreate a new way of doing
something or thinking aboutsomething.
And that makes it reallydifficult, you know?
And then it's like, I think it'sthe back and forth, like when
(35:06):
you go to therapy, if you'venever been, your therapist
should prepare you for the factthat it's going to feel worse
before it feels better.
Yeah.
Because one of the things thatwe forget as human beings is
that a lot of the choices wemake are coping mechanisms so
that we don't have to sit withour feelings.
And so when you go to therapy,you're basically allowing this
(35:26):
person to come into your homeand unpack all your crap and
leave it there, and you're notgonna feel great about it.
And you gotta sit with it.
Yeah.
And it's building yourself-awareness, but it's also
emotionally exhausting.
Yes.
At the same time.
Especially if you've never doneit before.
Going through something in yourlife that you haven't been
through before, you've neverunpacked before.
To add to the emotionalexhausting thing.
(35:48):
For people who are going totherapy for the first time, I do
just wanna say like.
One of the things I experiencedis I didn't wanna go out as
much, I didn't wanna do a bunchof things because I was so
emotionally exhausted.
That unpacking is heavy.
You don't realize it, but it'slike on a subconscious level, it
drains the energy out of you.
That's where the wellness spacedoes kind of thrive, those
(36:08):
little practices do really helpto alleviate some of that
heaviness that you end upfeeling from finally facing
years of repressed emotion.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And for me, I've done a lot ofother things that have been just
as impactful for my healing.
I'm a mystic.
I like to explore and dabble.
(36:28):
Like I've been to psychics, I'vebeen to coaches, I've been to
like energy healers.
Like I've explored a lot ofother things and I've had
experiences that have helped mehave amazing breakthroughs, and
realizations in life, that havealso been really essential to my
(36:49):
healing journey.
We call that adult math.
It's real.
It's real.
So, if you're in the thick ofit, wondering why healing feels
like heartbreak confusion orthat one DIY haircut that went
terribly wrong.
You're not broken babe.
You're just rebootingemotionally with questionable
wifi.
(37:10):
Whether you're scream singing inthe car or you're ghosting your
therapist out of avoidance.
Just know healing is not linear,but it is meme worthy and
probably deserves its own.
Spotify wrapped.
Send this episode to that onefriend who's deep in the healing
trenches.
And remember, if you'respiraling, at least spiral with
snacks and boundaries.
(37:30):
Until next time.
Bye bye.
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