November 1, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, Hollie Bellino and Adam Levine (military fighter pilot and DPE) talk about how to prep for your checkride, common mistakes that are made, the checkride appeals process and what happens if you fail a checkride. Listen in to get first hand checkride knowledge from this experienced DPE!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What's up aviators, welcome to the second half of the DPE episode or Designated Pilot
(00:12):
Examiner episode.
I hope you're pumped for this.
Last time of course, you know, we went over the details of Adam Levine's background and
his history in the military.
And today we're going to be covering more topics on the checkride itself, including
of course, things that you can do to prepare for your checkride and some particular topics
that he has experienced in PPL checkrides in particular.
(00:32):
I hope that you like it and feel free to comment or email me any feedback that you have.
If you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube.
It's free and like this video.
And if you're listening on a podcast, go ahead and follow, rate and review my podcast as
well.
And after the second half of the DPE video, I will continue to go into my ways to build
flight hours.
So keep tuning in to figure out all those ways that you can build your flight hours
(00:53):
so that you can get to your aviation goals faster.
Don't forget to send me your guests that you would like to see on my show.
You can do that via email at your aviators guide at gmail.com.
Now that both halves of the DPE episode are complete, I know that you guys are expecting
to have more ways to build flight hours come out next Friday.
However, I will be taking a short break next Friday because I am doing TBM 930 training
and Epic 1000 training simultaneously.
(01:14):
I need a little bit of time to myself to study and make sure I'm fully prepared for that
training so I can knock it out of the park and be the best pilot I can be.
I appreciate your patience and I will have the continuation of ways to build your flight
hours coming out on November 15th.
If for some reason I'm able to miraculously get an episode out on November 8th, I will
do so.
But for now, we're just going to go with the 15th for the next one.
Thanks again for your patience guys and enjoy the second half of the DPE episode.
(01:36):
So what do you think makes a good DPE?
It's easy.
You know, just be humble and approachable.
They're remembering that they're new pilots, right?
100% right.
And that, you know, that took a little bit of time to kind of get used to.
You know, the Mirage, the average person like walking into that cockpit had like 4,000 fighter
hours.
Very, very experienced pilots.
Now you're walking into an examination with a private pilot who's got maybe the bare minimum
(02:00):
40, 45.
I mean, not a lot.
But most kids have more, right?
So be humble and approachable.
But let's peel that back, right?
A bit more.
And it's not just the walking in the room.
You get requests for check-rides.
Some days are 10, some days are 5, some days are 15.
People text, email, social media, reaching out.
Then you got to schools.
One of the biggest things that the FAA has for their DPEs, again, it's all in chapter
(02:22):
three of the 8095, is you have to basically be a good person.
When people reach out, get them scheduled, try to get them done in a reasonable amount
of time.
You know, be fair and equitable.
How do you operationalize that in our area of operations, like in DFW?
You've got dozens of flight schools.
Some of them are pretty big.
And they have a big machine in the ops department that's just going out there and scheduling
DPEs.
(02:43):
And then you've got other really small flight schools.
You've got a flying club or part-time CFI or kids that are just flying on the weekends.
I had an applicant reach out and we scheduled a date.
And to meet with the kid, I always ask the question, how long have you been waiting?
It was months.
And then I said, how many DPEs did you reach out to?
Holly, he took out three pages of handwritten notes.
(03:03):
Every DPE, he just did an arc of like 400 miles around Denton.
And he was going to some small flying school that did not have an ops department, did the
scheduling.
Email, call, no response, email, call, response, not available.
It takes an emotional toll.
I mean, took an emotional toll on him, but you feel terrible.
Every time an applicant reaches out, I try to respond in a reasonable amount of time.
But the answer may be like, dude, I can only get you in and like, you know, extra one out
(03:25):
of time.
And my schedule is dynamic.
So I try not to schedule out more than four to six weeks.
But I have a notepad, I write down the name, the contact information, the date that they
contacted me.
And I then go down that list when I have slots open up and I reach out to them.
And that's the best you can do.
Every examiner is different.
Every applicant is different.
Bigger schools that have a department that does the scheduling, the applicant is just
going through it and they know they're going to get examiners because they have enough
(03:47):
throughput to guarantee that that examiner shows up is going to do a couple of check
rides.
So the experiences varies depending on what school you go to, what your background is.
So before you even get the room, I send them an applicant form.
I think like we worked together when he had a kid at stature or two.
And he saw the applicant form and he probably deal with a bunch of DPEs.
But I'm like, what is going to make that applicant's life easier in the preparation and my life
(04:09):
easier in determining eligibility?
Do you have IACRA?
Do you have an FDN?
Have you even started an application?
And then by that's like, hey, how many hours do you have?
And then we kind of been it by cross country.
This is for maybe the CFI, who's maybe it's like their first kid that they're nominating
or maybe this applicant, you know, it's just their first certification.
And it gives them a chance to go back in the log book.
I'm like, ah, I'm not even anywhere close to being ready.
(04:31):
Nothing is worse than walking into a room, determining eligibility.
You can't even start the evaluation until you determine eligibility.
What if you're missing an endorsement?
What if that cross country that you did does not meet the eligibility requirements?
We're not even doing a check ride today.
So reaching out to that applicant, setting a date and then also having back updates available,
right?
Because you may discontinue eligibility may be an issue.
(04:52):
Maybe the airplane breaks.
Maybe the weather isn't great.
You can't even get to the point where you get to the brief to start it.
I think that initial interaction with the applicant is important.
Just try to be courteous and email.
Hey, thank you so much for reaching out.
Apologies.
I was late to respond.
Been kind of busy.
Here's my applicant form.
I'll email you back.
Get in the waiting list.
As soon as I have a date, I'll let you know.
I try to update them.
Things that you wish some applicants do better.
(05:13):
Once that name comes up on that list, I reach back out.
It's like you hear nothing back for a week or two weeks.
And I update my notes like, hey, you know, initially email was on 10 September.
Contact back on 20 September.
It's now 6 October and I never back.
And then you get this frantic thing of like, when are we meeting?
I need a date.
You're like, dude, did you not see the email?
You're like, oh yeah, I got busy.
I'm like, that spot was taken.
(05:34):
Now you're back in the list.
And that's frustrating.
I can imagine.
For everyone.
But you are really great about responding.
I really appreciate that.
I'm not sitting on the deep issue.
So I don't know what their experience is like or what they do.
I just know what my process is.
It's cumbersome.
It's time consuming, but it works.
And I think it's equitable.
So then you finally set a date.
You're going for a private check ride.
You got everything ready to go.
We need to have a reason to do the event today, right?
(05:55):
Because the applicant needs to prepare and present a NAV log, depending on the type of
certificate they're going for, to the examiner.
So when we set a date, I try to give it, hey man, we're going to go FDW to Austin.
Plan your NAV to have an estimated time departure two hours after a planned meet time, right?
Well now he's got a destination.
He's got a timeline.
He can do his entire PAVE, right?
(06:16):
Which is basic skeleton of the ACS and the oral discussion.
Look at the pilot, look at the aircraft, look at the environment, look at the external factors.
So if you've done all those things, you're ready to walk into that brief, assuming you've
determined eligibility and the kid is ready, right?
Right.
Hopefully that kind of disarms them a little bit like, oh my God, I'm so worried about
this stuff.
Well, he's given me all the only information to study.
And also I think in my applicant notes, I provide quite a bit of context to the applicant
(06:38):
coming forward.
You do.
So it's a good idea of what we're going to be experiencing in the check ride.
Exactly.
Like, hey, your NAV is going to be to this point today.
Plan the departure time here.
You want to do paper?
Great.
You want to have for-flight?
Great.
Just have something that we can use in the brief.
Please bring the appropriate parts of the aircraft maintenance records because we have
to determine eligibility for the aircraft.
Depending on which certificate you're going for, you're going to have to determine airworthiness
(07:00):
of that aircraft so it's actually built into that.
So hopefully they've come in and they've seen an aircraft logbook before, not just the dispatch
form from their flight ops department, all that before you even go into the check ride
is important.
And that goes into planning for the event.
If you don't plan for the event, the probability of you being successful during the execution
is going to be more difficult.
(07:21):
The other part is, again, I don't get to sit with DPs every week and see how Bob, Jim,
or Mary does their evaluations, right?
I know how I do mine.
I've had my FAA managing specialist come down and audit me and he's like, yep, keep doing
what you're doing, doing great.
Or you can, you know, clean up on these couple areas.
So that's the kind of context you're asking.
Like how do you make someone at ease is like it begins with that email interaction.
You build on the planning before you get into the event.
You always say, reach out if you have any questions.
(07:43):
If you've not opened up the ACS until two days prior to the check ride, whose fault
is that?
It's on the instructor.
It's on the instructor.
Everything is on the instructor.
Now, if you open up the, you know, all the FAA regs in terms of like going up for a check
ride, the ACS is mentioned, I don't know, about 69 times in various parts of like, that
is what you're testing on.
(08:03):
The preparation is the DPE kind of imparting, here's this scenario we're going to do today.
Nothing is preventing that applicant from going to their CFI and maybe doing a rehearsal
for that.
Not saying go all the way down to Austin, present that Navlog in whatever format to
your instructor and then kind of look at it.
Does this make sense?
Can you even get there?
What terrain are we going over?
Do all these things.
And then the other part that the CFI does, and I believe you were doing this at your
(08:26):
school was a mock oral, right?
How many of those have you administered?
So many.
So if a mock oral does not go well, do you still push that kid, that applicant towards
an evaluation?
No.
If they can't pass that oral, there's no point to continue with the check ride.
How about this?
What about the knowledge test report?
70 to pass, an applicant takes their private pilot knowledge test and they walk out, they're
(08:49):
like high-fiving you with a 70.
You have to go back with that applicant and review everything.
Review all the missed knowledge.
And you know if they got a 70, but they probably got lucky in a few, and you got to review
everything, right?
The ACS, which I'm doing a private pilot check ride, that is free to download, right?
Absolutely.
So I, in the oral part, broadly speaking, it's one knowledge, one risk, and all skills.
So you can look to see every one of the questions I'm going to ask.
(09:12):
And it ain't that many from a broad question bank perspective.
And if I've told you the nav of where we're going, and you know the scenario is based
on that nav, you can mission plan to answer all the questions along those lines.
And if you know what airplane you're flying for like area operation one, I think it's
section B, which is airworthiness, it asks you the question, is this airplane airworthy?
How do we determine airworthiness?
(09:32):
When we go into the brief, how is an applicant prepared?
Everything we test today is in accordance with the ACS.
Nothing more, nothing less, okay?
The question is not so complex that you need to take, you know, three different books out.
Memory joggers help.
People use acronyms.
I'm not going to grade you on an acronym.
I'm like, oh my God, he knew A tomato flames.
I guess we're good now, you know?
But okay, you know, and then we're going to operationalize it for that aircraft.
(09:53):
Are you flying a 172?
Dave VFR.
Does this airplane have an ML or KOEL?
Like the thing was built in 1972?
No.
Okay.
So what do we need?
What is the required equipment that you need to have in the aircraft in order to conduct
this flight today in the airplane that we're going to fly in?
And it's A tomato flames.
Like great.
Where does that come from?
And they should cite the appropriate 91 series.
(10:14):
People actually tell you A tomato flames and.
100%.
Yeah.
Because that's what their CFI says.
Just say A tomato flames.
Who defines that?
Does the manufacturer or does your CFI decide that?
Or the guy who owns the airplane?
No, none of those.
It's the FAA that has determined based on codified codes.
This is what you need for Dave VFR.
And they look up the 91 series and they go through it.
(10:37):
And I'm like, awesome.
172, carbureted, you know, direct drive.
Whoa, can we go?
It says manifold pressure.
If they just read in the section above, it's like, if equipped, right?
Right.
What about the Cirrus?
Landing gear position indicator.
Is that going to be a problem today?
Is that correlation of like, what is that requirement?
What's the airplane actually have installed today?
Okay.
So acronyms are meaningless without context and you have to kind of know the reference.
(11:00):
But I say you can have it in your brain.
You can write it out.
And also if they're prepared, remember if you have four flight as an example, you've
got the FAA driving there, all the references are in there.
Or you can go to a variety of sources, ASA or some of the other sporties and get all
their books.
I, every day I go to work, I carry my p-hack, flying handbook, FAR-A, but at any rate, having
(11:21):
context as to where that reference is coming from and if you can't remember it, like how
are we going to get there?
I've had applicants walk in with a hundred on the knowledge test report on an instrument
exam.
I'm like, wow.
And fail the oral.
I've had kids walk in there with a 70.
Best check rides I've ever seen.
But broadly speaking, grades are indicative of future performance, just how it is.
Now hopefully if you've not done well, you've prepared.
(11:41):
Organization is key.
And we could just maybe ask kind of a sample question going on a scenario base, all right?
And we're going down to Austin.
It's a private pilot check ride.
It's Dave VFR.
We're down at AUS and the reason we're going is like barbecue, like barbecue.
We're friends.
So we're going to go down to Austin to check out this new barbecue place because we need
to have a reason to go on the flight.
We're down at Austin, get up IT, get back to the airplane and a representative of the
(12:04):
FAA is doing what is commonly referred to as a ramp check.
And he goes up to the airplane and he's like, God, it's a really nice Cirrus.
And he's like, Hey, who's the pilot?
I'm like, she's a pilot.
All right, cool.
He is going to ask you for your documents.
What should you present to him if a representative of the administrator asks you for your pilot
documents?
That's a great question, Adam.
I'm glad you asked.
So of course you have to present your government issued photo ID, your pilot certificate and
(12:27):
your medical, valid medical.
Perfect.
Okay.
So you are maybe carrying your medical certificate.
Top line says a first class medical and maybe you're under 40 and maybe you got that done
a couple of years ago, maybe two or three years ago.
So I'm going to ask you, is that still a good first class medical?
Then what do you start jumping into?
Then you have to think about how many months that medical is good for and what it degrades
to after that first year of being a first class medical.
(12:50):
Cool.
We're getting barbecue, Holly.
It's like really good, but it's like really expensive.
So I'm like, Holly, thanks for flying me down here.
I'm going to buy your lunch.
I am offering to pay you to fly me down there and that form of compensation is I'm going
to buy your meal.
Can you accept that?
No, because if you're going for PPL, then you can't get paid or compensated for a flight.
(13:10):
What do you mean I can't get paid?
You can't get paid to fly?
No.
Can we share any costs?
Yeah, we share all the costs.
Okay.
What costs can we share?
What are the costs that's associated with the aircraft?
Easiest way to do is, hey, I got my own lunch.
I appreciate it, but it's 20 gallons of gas to get down here as a tie down fee, whatever.
Happy to share that so you can talk about pro rata.
Now you're talking about privilege and limitations.
(13:32):
So all that is a scenario.
When we're going through the old discussion on these different areas of operation, I'm
going to sample every part of the required codes, one knowledge, one risk, and all the
skills and the conduct of that discussion.
So we're supposed to take that SR20 and it broke.
Your school though, they're awesome.
They're like, we got a spare aircraft they tow out of Piper Cub.
(13:54):
One thing is, what are you looking for in the pilot log book in the context of aircraft
single-engine land, right?
Is it a tricycle type landing gear or is it a tail-dragger?
If you're flying with aircraft with equipment you're not familiar with or different configurations.
The answer is no, I don't have the endorsements.
I don't have any training in that aircraft.
So anyway, that's kind of an example of kind of weaving through that scenario.
(14:16):
And we haven't even left pilot requirements, right?
We still got the rest of the thing to go.
So hopefully that kind of gives you a sense of how the discussion goes, right?
So is there a point when you feel like the student isn't doing well and so you dive deeper
or ask different questions depending on how it's going?
Let's look at weather for example.
Looking at a Prague chart, right?
I may point to a graphic and I may say, wow, what is that?
(14:38):
That is a trough.
Okay, cool.
What's that L?
It's a low pressure system.
Okay, here's one.
The little lines, the isogenic lines, right?
And there's numbers next to them.
So I'm like, hey, what's that number like?
That's the number of equal pressure.
I'm like, oh, great.
What is that number?
Well, it's a 1015.
I'm like, what does that mean?
Well, they should say that's the pressure expressed in millibars, right?
(14:59):
Cool.
What is standard day in millibar?
And they should be like, oh.
1013.2.
Okay, cool.
So let's just say, so take that.
Let's just say that the applicant upfront is like, oh my God, I don't know.
Like I said in the pre-brief, you can use different references.
So if you are not sure, what reference would you expect the applicant to look for?
You could look at aviation weather, the book.
You could look at aviation weather.
You could look at aviation weather center.
(15:20):
You could look at the aim.
You can also open up the p-hack.
There's an entire section, multiple chapters on weather.
And there's a part in there that they'll see pressure is presented generally in millibars
and, oh, here's a whole discussion of millibar standard day.
So I'm expecting for them, if they don't know it, to just go to the reference.
Exactly, guys.
That's why it's so important to, if you don't know the answer, we don't have to know everything,
okay?
But you have to know where to find it.
(15:41):
So we talked about the airworth.
Let's kind of jump into that a little bit.
That ramp check we just talked about, the representative, you know, you show him the
documents and then he's like, hey, he wants to look at the aircraft documents.
What are the bare minimum documents you have to have in the airplane to show the administrator?
Your airworthiness, your registration.
And where should the airworthiness and registration be?
(16:02):
Should it be shuffled away?
Viewable to the...
Viewable, right?
Yeah, depending if there's magnetic compass, you have to have the magnetic compass car.
You have to have your P.O.H.
P.O.H.
Or your A.F.M.
Or your airplane flight manual, which is specific to the aircraft.
That's a little difference between the P.O.H. and the A.F.M.
All placards about the aircraft have to be on there.
You need your weight and balance.
Weight and balance, right?
So hopefully they should take that, right?
The basic empty weight, the arm and CG, and I'm actually going to drop it into today's
(16:25):
event to be able to determine whether our flight today will be within the weight and
balance balance of the aircraft.
So you can see we just went from determining airworthiness and jumped right into performance
limitations, right?
And now that applicant is actually correlating what we do with that information.
Some schools have like a dispatch sheet.
I'm like, hey, you know, we good today.
Is the aircraft airworthy?
And they're like, they have a printout.
(16:46):
Everything's in the green.
We're good.
I'm like, dude, I can come up with an Excel spreadsheet and put everything in the green
and we're good.
Show me.
You have to have some sort of the maintenance logs for the check back for the brief.
100%.
But you know, some schools, like big schools, like they'll just have their maintenance department.
It's like a living, breathing kind of live feed of the different aircraft timers, right,
for periodicity.
So we should hopefully be able to look at the aircraft engine prop log.
(17:08):
On occasion, you do get a private owner.
So they may not have a hundred hour.
Private owners, please hire a good mechanic.
Keep your log books organized and straightened out.
I would recommend for the CFI before that applicant goes in, just look at the most current
inspections, you know, have them tapped out like a little note on there.
So you can see them kind of dive in from the airworthiness side, make sure we can go one
level deeper and get a context of determining if the aircraft is airworthy for the flight
(17:31):
that we're doing today.
Perfect.
Yes.
What do you think is one of the biggest mistakes people make on their check ride?
Okay, this is an interesting one on a nav plan.
So we're going from Meacham, FTW to GGG.
Okay, can I see, can I see your nav chart?
Again, I don't care if you want to do paper or for a flight, but the applicant presents
the nav plan.
Holly, you've flown around here a bunch.
(17:52):
You want to do a day VFR flight and you want to go from Meacham out to Longview.
Are you going to go south and then you're going to go out to the east to get out of
the Bravo and plan around that?
Yes.
There's no guarantee you'll get through the Bravo, right?
Right.
On request.
So between here and Longview, if you just cut the line across, that Bravo pretty much
goes down to the surface.
So this happens, it's like, ah, I got us a quick flight out there and he puts a line
(18:14):
direct from FTW right to GGG, cutting through like the most complex parts of the Bravo.
I'm like, oh, awesome.
So we then unpack that.
That is an example where that kid did not spend the time doing the planning for that
event.
They consider the air spaces, requirements to find that airspace, all of these things.
(18:36):
So if he wants to stick to that, I'm going to start picking that apart.
What should happen is the applicant should be like, ah, I think it'll be smart to adjust
that and now they're thinking and then maybe they move their steer points out, especially
if they do it in for a flight, it's pretty easy.
And now I get to see them actually do some mission planning, which is totally fine.
So that's an example from a private pilot.
Believe it or not, times are difficult for people.
So Holly, what is the local time right now?
(18:58):
9 58.
In two minutes, what time will it be?
10 o'clock.
What time is that in Zulu?
1500.
Right now, at least.
You're a CFI, you're in the middle of a podcast and I'm just asking you a question about time.
Imagine we are in a brief and you're focused on the mission at hand and you know we've
been talking about departure time, arrival time.
What time is it now?
Oh, it's 10.
Cool.
What time is that in Zulu?
The amount of blank looks that you get from applicants is incredible, right?
(19:20):
Because that's a question.
It's like conversion to UTC.
Are you serious?
I've seen people say 10 o'clock local, it's five o'clock Zulu.
I'm like, are you sure?
I can't teach an applicant, also not going to be so stern as to be like, we're done,
terrible.
That's just a little cueing, right?
I'm not teaching.
Am I teaching?
And I'm like, use whatever resource you want.
So we're high fiving, we got it, it's 15Z.
(19:41):
What time are we departing?
11 o'clock.
What time is that in Zulu?
And we're back like, oh my God.
And they're doing the counting with their fingers and their toes.
I'm like, oh, okay, we're taking off at 16Z.
All right, it's an hour and a half flight down to Austin.
What time are we arriving in Zulu?
These are all questions out of the ACS.
Pretty basic stuff.
But what does four flight do for you?
Everything.
Everything, everything, everything, everything.
(20:02):
It does everything for you.
But you have to know how it gets those numbers.
100%.
And that's the part of doing your nav log.
Yeah, I've seen one applicant for a private pilot.
I'm like, hey, let's see the weight and balance.
Oh, here it is in the aircraft.
Great.
Let's see how it applies to today's flight.
He's like, hey, I used four flight.
I'm like, four flight, great, have at it.
And generally see like the spider chart, right?
Like your weight and your CG, and then it's like takeoff and landing.
(20:23):
I'm looking for a flight.
You have a circle and you have a square, takeoff and landing.
They were coincident.
So basically we took off at a certain plot in the aircraft center of gravity and we landed
in that same spot.
I'm like, show how's this look?
And he's like, man, that doesn't look right.
And like, all right, are you presenting that to me right now?
He's like, can I, can I work on this?
I'm like, yeah.
(20:44):
He starts getting into the looking underneath the hood and four flight.
Next thing you know, the CG is way after lunch and he is totally flustered.
We have to compete to win, but we have to make sure that no getting for our own safety
and for the ACS like they were good.
And for the last 10 years he's been practicing on pen and paper.
And before the evaluation, he decides to get into the 2024 and go do it on four flight
and it's not working out well.
(21:05):
You just have to present to me a suitable weight and balance.
What else could you do?
He's like, I'm going to do it on pen and paper.
I'm like, perfect.
And he sits there five minutes later, perfect weight and balance opens up the POH.
Now we're in the normal category, takeoff landing.
Everything's great.
It kind of shows that technology, it could be really good.
It can also get you in a little bit of trouble there, right?
Absolutely.
So these are basic questions and what I'm getting at is the applicant, if they don't
(21:27):
know it, should be able to go to reference and should be able to get there from here
within a reasonable amount of time.
There is no question in the ACS that it's not otherwise contained in one of the references.
And that's one of the interesting ones I've seen.
And unfortunately this did result in a notice of disapproval.
He had the NAV and said, okay, have you ever done flight following?
(21:47):
And he's like, yes, sir.
All right, cool.
What about a view of our flight plan?
And he's like, what?
If we want to actually file today, how could you file a view for our flight plan?
And he's like, well, I just do flight following.
I'm like, that's not what I asked.
You answered that question, like how do you actually file a view for a flight plan?
The applicant could not, with all the references available, could not figure out how to file
(22:08):
a view for our flight plan.
Guess what?
That is a question.
It's on the ACS.
That's a pretty basic thing.
I can't help him, but I'm like, what are references?
And he's looking at the far end.
Just not even, it was painful.
I'm like, hey, we'll come back to that so we go to some other areas.
Now I'm kind of sampling and I see, well, there's kind of some gaps in basic knowledge,
like looking at a TAFs, right?
(22:30):
At the destination and the applicant could not, like just basic things in a TAF, right?
Couldn't do it.
Okay, let's go back to the file and the view for our flight plan and still couldn't do
it.
We get to the end of the road.
I'm like, all right, we're done.
This event is disapproved.
Go get your CFI and then I'm going to write out the notice of disapproval, right?
And that was in the oral.
It's really hard when you have an applicant that cannot get past the oral.
(22:53):
That's like, that's bad.
So we give the notice of disapproval and then I bring the CFI in.
If we have a notice of disapproval, always try to get the CFI and the applicant.
So knee to knee, like we're talking now and like we're going to talk about what happens
to the CFI understands, the applicant understands.
Then we're going to answer those questions.
I asked the CFI, how are you going to file this view for our flight plan?
(23:13):
And he's like, oh yeah, 100 weather brief.
I can file it on for a flight, pick it up.
I'm like, cool.
What are the elements of view for our flight plan?
And he's like, well, it's on for a flight or I can look in the foreign aim.
You know, there it is opens up my great.
Why did he not know that?
And the light bulb click with the CFI or the kid, if he didn't know off the top of his
head, the foreign aim, eight, 900 pages, open that up filing via far, open up the tap.
(23:35):
Oh, there it is.
This is how you can do it.
Bottom right in on the, in the application for flight is you, would you like to proceed
to file?
And it's going to show you the elements over there.
Anyway, that's an example that did not go well.
Another failure.
We're doing the pre-flight brief.
So the pre-flight brief is rushing and talk about how we're going to go out first, nav
point, and then we're going to divert off and do some maneuvers.
And then we're going to go to some an outlying field.
So I'm going to go over the maneuvers.
(23:56):
I'm going to talk about the ACS standards of that maneuver.
So there's no question in that applicant's mind, especially the landing stuff.
Hey, remember zero plus 400 feet is zero plus 200 feet.
And one of the items there is spin awareness, right?
You are flying power on stall.
So I say, Hey, God forbid we have the wrong input in there and we end up in a spin.
What are you going to do?
So there's some basic concepts from spin awareness for general aviation aircraft.
(24:17):
Well, we have our acronyms for it, depending on the aircraft.
Depending on the aircraft, right?
Depending on the aircraft.
But there's an acronym that people like to use.
And what is that acronym?
Pair.
Pair, right?
Except for if you're flying a Piper Archer, technically it's supposed to be REAP.
REAP.
And I asked the applicant, what is the recovery?
And she says pair.
All right.
What does that mean?
She's like, it means pair.
I was like, wow, okay.
No concept.
(24:38):
Oh, wow.
Like nothing.
There's nothing there.
There is nothing there.
I'm not flying unless you can give me some deeper level of knowledge on spin awareness.
With the reference, could not even, it started then started making things up.
So we're done.
We're done.
And that's kind of frustrating.
We haven't even gotten in the aircraft.
Right.
During the practical, we have to do like a diversion exercise in the private, right?
(25:01):
So in the pre-flight briefing, we say, hey, at some point I'm going to try to get you
lost.
And the way I get them lost is we kind of do maneuver after maneuver after maneuver.
And really what I'm doing is I'm putting them in like a big box in this area that I know
is going to be clear of other aircraft.
And we're always clearing.
In my mind, I'm like, God forbid something happens that I could pitch into any one of
these four places, right?
Because I want to go home as well.
You're flying somewhere, you get lost.
How do you get un-lost, right?
(25:22):
And you have a variety of capabilities.
Now we are operating southwest of Benbrook Lake.
For your listeners, if you look at the southwest corner of a class B, there's Benbrook Lake.
And you kind of outside the Bravo as you get a bit further southwest of that.
And you've got lots of little airports right there.
So anyway, the kid is like getting the aircraft set up, doing all these maneuvers, doing great.
I'm like, cool.
Hey, where is Claybrook Airport?
Where is KCPT, brother?
Where is Claybrook Airport?
(25:43):
How are we going to get there?
How long is the day?
They are looking outside.
They start turning the aircraft.
He's got four-fly with GPS.
I'm not using any of it.
Not is like, ah, and he's like, now he's like zooming in and then he zooms way off aircraft
position, can't figure out how to get back to Arizona.
For the viewers, it's 15 miles just southeast of us.
I mean, you can see the lake.
Now I know because we're operating there.
(26:03):
But to be clear, this applicant has flown in the flight school locally, has flown in
this area a lot.
And that's a very basic question.
I'm going to value after just sit there as we're kind of droning along.
We're doing this for 15 minutes.
Oh, man.
You cannot have that person flying in the National Airspace System when you've got a
GPS equipped aircraft, you've got a GPS enabled EFB, you've got a sectional, you've got your
(26:24):
eyeballs in your backyard.
I say, hey, the rise is proof.
Now to go back, there are three outcomes of an evaluation.
There is issuing a temperament certificate.
There is a letter of discontinuance.
If you have an issue with weather or maintenance or some physio like, okay, we just can't keep
going for whatever reason.
Cool.
So what we've done, you come back, retest and finish up.
That may be in the same day.
Maybe we get back, jump in a spare aircraft, wait for the weather to clear, whatever it
(26:46):
is.
And then you have a notice of disapproval.
We cannot wait until the end of the event.
I got to tell them pretty much right then and there, hey, this oral is disapproved.
We're going to have to retest another day.
You have to go and get retrained.
During the practical, you can't have a maneuver that exceeds an ACS and just like let it go
and wait till you get back two hours later and then be like, you remember that thing?
You can figure it out.
Yeah, that failed.
(27:07):
I'll recite that portion of the ACS and I'll say, hey, the ride is disapproved.
But then we have options like a brief him on it.
He understands what he failed and I'd say, hey, do you want to continue?
You can actually go and do all the other maneuvers.
And that's exactly what we did.
And you know what?
He did great on everything else.
And a week later we went out, tried to get him lost, couldn't get him lost.
I mean, he was like over-prepared.
I went to a wholly different area, like middle of nowhere at a thousand feet.
(27:30):
Every farm and ranch looked like the other one outside of a VOR range.
Shut off his GPS.
Climbed up, looked around.
Oh, here's this, that, the other thing, VOR, cross check, we're good.
I'm like, wow, okay.
Awesome.
Yeah, fixed that.
And that guy is a really good example of whenever you are in a checkride and something didn't
go just like you wanted it to, but you still passed it, don't let it snowball you.
And he failed already, but he didn't let it snowball and he completed the rest of it to
(27:54):
satisfaction.
Just a couple other concepts without getting into too much detail.
Diving into a pattern aggressively without entering one of the kind of the accept-as-ways,
either 45 to downwind.
Really cutting out an aircraft as it's tapering the downwind.
So the applicant is descending so they're not even at TPA a couple miles prior.
And this is the other part, it's like, I cannot allow a violation to occur.
We're not going to hit anyone.
(28:14):
I'm going to watch how this applicant does it.
They're about to cut someone off.
They're going about 30 knots faster than flap speed.
So they're well after the white arc.
And the applicant just starts going into their pre-landing checklist to grab the flap lever.
I had to stop them, right?
Because I'm like, I don't want to break this airplane, not my airplane.
Like I rest the flaps and set up the controls and we maneuver away.
(28:35):
And the applicant was totally surprised.
So that's a condition where a hazard was really kind of appearing over here.
I can only take it a certain amount of time before we start impacting everyone else.
We basically failed on three different things simultaneously, right?
If that kind of makes sense, like pattern entry, communication, and then general flying
the aircraft.
And the applicant broke down in tears.
I'm like, you're the pilot in command, physically unable to fly for a couple minutes.
And she decided to just go back home.
(28:56):
So no continuing on.
And then we were retested another week and did great.
During an emergency, if you have to take controls, is that an automatic failure?
No, let's operationalize it a little bit, right?
When we're doing the commencement check ride, for example, on the safety pilot, because
the applicant has the view limit device on, I try to, in the conduct evaluation, like
steer them away from traffic.
(29:17):
Because everyone else out there is just tilling around VFR.
So I will give them vectors.
But sometimes, I call it the crazy Ivan from another aircraft.
And that is like, they're doing their own maneuvers out there.
I'm trying to give them vectors to final an aircraft.
And they just like turn into us.
I'm like, there is no way.
So I try to give vectors, or then I'll just tell the applicant, like, I need you to turn
left or climb or descend.
My third condition is, I need to get on the controls, right?
(29:39):
Because something just materialized out of nowhere.
Usually around North Texas, what do we see a lot of?
Birds.
Yeah, lots of birds.
Lots of birds.
And the kids on the view limit device, there's no idea, like we're going through a swarm
of buzzards over there.
And like a buzzard just comes in out of nowhere.
And I just got to get on the controls.
One time on a soft field landing commercial certificate, the applicant, we're doing a
wheelie.
A bit of a crosswind, and we are tracking into the runway edge lights.
(30:02):
And he's not recognizing.
So like, I've got my little safety box.
But once you hit the corner of that box, like, I'm going home tonight.
So I'm like, my controls, you know, kind of arrest it.
That's an immediate unsat.
Remember, we both have to agree to continue if we want to do it.
I'm not agreeing to continue after that.
Like, when you trespass that kind of zone, like I was like, we're good.
We're done for the day.
(30:23):
General trends, right, for a private pilot, the landing piece is kind of hard.
And go arounds are free, normal, soft field, short field.
But if you can't make the ACS tolerance, like go around, go around, go around.
We got like, you have so many go arounds.
You can't just keep doing it.
And there's not a number.
There's not a number where you can't get there from here.
And if they don't make the ACS tolerance, you know.
(30:44):
On the instrument, common trends are, hate to say, it's, again, my experience, you know,
non-precision MDA.
They just descend past MDA.
Not good.
Or they get to MDA and they don't even get to the missed a perch point.
Like, we're done.
They, it's like, what, wait, can't help you there.
You know, so that's an example from the instrument.
And then the commercial is, I hate to say, the PowerF 180 is probably one of the more.
(31:06):
Really?
Yeah, PowerF 180.
It's one of the harder maneuvers to do, I think, in the commercial certificate.
And remember, on that one for the ACS, you go around for safety.
That is to say, you got a hazard, like, oh my God, we're going to hit something, a bird,
another airplane.
Or we're going to crash because you did not manage energy properly.
But if you're like, not, like, I'm not going to make the ACS tolerance, you know, you go
around like there's no, because it's a power off.
(31:27):
Exactly.
So you get one shot.
But in the preflight, preflight, go into detail on that.
Right.
So I'm like, hey, you know, maybe the kids are choosing the thousand footers as an example.
And they're like, they don't think they're going to make it.
But I'm like, they're just manage your energy, your performance in the energy management
will decide whether you make it or not.
Right.
But if you are like, I'm not going to make it.
And then you go around, you were kind of done at that point.
(31:47):
Right.
What I've been surprised with is these Cessnas, they will float forever.
And I'm like, oh, there's no way we're going to make it.
And he or she, they're eating every last ounce of energy out of that aircraft.
They're beautifully managing it.
And we just sail right into that desired landing.
So don't give up.
What can you tell us about the appeals process for a checkride?
I've heard about a couple of students, not with you, obviously, but who didn't think
(32:09):
that they were graded fairly.
So it goes back to popular rights.
I brief every applicant on that and actually use a scenario of like, hey, if you think
I messed something up today, you can talk to my managing specialist, give you the contact
information and they can reach out to them.
The 8,000.95 Charlie actually has a whole section there on like what happens if the
applicant is not satisfied with the outcome of the event?
They can advocate and talk to the managing specialist.
Every applicant should know that and that's what they should do.
(32:30):
But anyway, can I ask you a question?
You can advocate in the managing specialist office.
I've never had to go through that experience.
I hope I never do, but there's a process for that.
What is your take on the checkride gouge?
A lot of DPs have them.
So pilots know, oh, they usually cover this.
The gouge is the ACS.
That's the gouge.
If you and your CFI and the mock oral can apply the nav that I'm going to give to you
(32:51):
and have a discussion and use a paved checklist, which is basically the ACS checklist for the
oral and get through that, you shouldn't have an issue and then be able to go look at the
knowledge and the risk and the skills.
Just make sure you can either remember it or know the reference for that.
There's nothing that complex about it.
How do DPs come up with their rates?
Is it just based on like a market value or?
The guidance is charged no more than a reasonable market rate.
(33:13):
So today it's whenever October of 2024, I charge a thousand dollars for private and
commercial multi.
That's my fee.
Context wise, I have to do all my continuing education, stay abreast of everything, checking
your email, getting back with applicants, doing all the scheduling, doing all the de-confliction
I have to do for my schedule to make the time to go me with that applicant.
We have to do pre-activity reporting, post-activity reporting and then be available.
(33:35):
What if the certificate never shows up?
That could be months later.
I have to go back to that applicant, get a hold of them and work that out.
Oh, by the way, the amount of training that we've gone through just to get in the door,
like I didn't get paid to go to that FAA training.
Like we paid and we spent weeks and months getting ready for that event.
It is not an insignificant exercise.
Absolutely.
So, recommendation, right?
What drives you bonkers is you get a text, I need a private check, right?
(34:00):
When?
That's it, you know?
Who, what?
Who is this?
Yeah.
Hey Adam, so and so, I'm at this school, at this airport, I'm working on this certificate,
I'm almost done with my endorsements, I'm looking for a date sometime in the next 60,
90 days.
Are you available?
And then like a contact information.
Or you get the email.
I need an instrument check like tomorrow.
(34:21):
Or I just got canceled.
Like I can't begin to even help you on that part.
How much time do you need to prepare to get ready for a check, right?
You need, so this is important, right?
I need to inform my managing specialist 24 hours prior to an event.
No later than 24 hours prior than the day before.
I go into DMS and I tell them what event I'm doing, where I'm doing it, what type of aircraft
I'm doing it, and who we're doing the evaluation for.
(34:41):
Because they technically can show up and observe any one of those events.
So you always have to be prepared for that.
Yeah.
I'll share something with your listeners.
This happened recently.
It was really kind of a lightning bolt moment for me.
I had done like several back to back to back, like two a day, several days in a row.
And had an applicant fly up here from like another city.
Do the event.
He lands.
He's like, hey, do you mind if I top off the aircraft?
(35:01):
I'm like, yeah, I'll go do the paperwork.
Do the paperwork.
And I go through the thing.
I did not do stalls.
And so flake.
Oh.
The kid comes in.
And at the same moment, he's like, we both say we didn't do stalls.
So what do you do?
We started back up.
We went out.
We did stalls.
What I did do is I called my managing specialist, 07 the next morning.
He's like, what happened?
I'm like, oh my God.
I'm about to lose my DP.
(35:22):
And he's like, you did the right thing.
One, you went out and you finished the event the way you're supposed to.
You didn't skip anything per the ACS.
And then you just told the applicant, like, yeah, I made a mistake.
And you went out and you completed.
And he's like, if the applicant would have failed, you would have failed.
So people make mistakes.
But that was a humbling moment because we're trying to get done a reasonable amount of
time.
Right?
Absolutely.
There is one thing I know a lot of pilots are whenever they fail a checkride, it's detrimental
(35:44):
to some of them.
They think that their careers are going to be hindered so much by it.
So what would you say to those pilots who have failed a checkride?
You're not a bad pilot because you failed a checkride.
I went to fight training.
I had an issue in the T2 Buckeye, the T45, and the Top Gun.
I had multiple reflies.
Probably the most of any candidate that had gone through.
Failing is a part of life.
And that's OK.
You just have a bad day.
Don't let that mark you for the rest of your life.
(36:06):
Yes, it's a logbook entry.
Own up to it.
If you are getting on a private instrument commercial, whatever rating certificate you're
going for, and you're going out for an interview because you want to be a professional pilot
and they'll be like, have you ever failed a thing before?
Be honest.
I've seen it in the interview.
If that comes up even, like, yep.
You know, it was a Power Rf 180 for my commercial pilot certificate.
And I landed long or I landed short of the ACS tolerance.
(36:28):
And it kind of sucked.
But I went out there two days later and knocked it out of the park.
Cool.
Move on.
Like, that's simple.
Don't dwell on it.
It's not the end of the world, guys.
No, no.
It's not the end of the world.
Do you happen to have a checkride that tends to have more failures than other checkrides?
No.
It's funny to say that several months ago, it was like private instrument commercial
will do several different in a week.
And it's a week of like disapproval, disapproval, disapproval, disapproval, like four or five
(36:51):
in a row.
Wow.
I call my managing specialist and he's like, how's that week going for you?
Because he gets to see all the paperwork.
He sees it like immediately almost.
Oh, yeah, because I have to submit the post activity report and DMS to him.
And I'm like, Kendall, this has been terrible.
I'm like, am I doing something wrong?
He's like, dude, no, it's just trend over time.
Are you applying the ACS?
Yes.
(37:11):
Is it pretty obvious what's happening?
It was like an oral, a power off 180, a single engine climb out on something.
It's like totally different things.
He's like, it's fine.
Just note it.
You know, be very professional in those disapproval.
Be available for retest if it works in your schedule.
If you look at a discontinuance, you have 60 days unless knowledge test medical or endorsement
(37:31):
expires.
For disapproval, it is also 60 days unless one of those other events happens.
Don't forget if it's a disapproval, it's a new ACRA application as well.
Here's some advice you have for newer pilots.
Are you doing this as a career or as a hobby?
If you're going to go to a full time flying program, do your research.
There's marketing out there and don't forget they're looking to get numbers up, but really
(37:54):
find a school that fits for your kind of unique circumstance, budget type of aircraft and
location.
I would ask questions if you're applying like, hey, are you basically a 141 or you're a 61?
You know, I don't want to say we got schools that are like puppy mills out there, but they're
just trying to get as many kids as you can through there.
Good luck kid, go find a DPE.
Yeah, they may have gotten through their private pilot training in record time, but they're
(38:17):
waiting months to do a check ride.
That's not good.
So do your research out there.
Read the reviews.
As you're learning to fly the aircraft, this is again, I grew up flying on dials, right?
Like the T2 Buckeye, the T-34, it was basically a six pack up to a supersonic, high subsonic
jet.
Even the Mirage, the one I jumped into for the check ride, it was basically a six pack.
(38:37):
I'll give a vector ticket or just like have them turn and climb.
So we're doing a private check ride, turn left heading 270, descend, maintain 3000.
And they just start turning the aircraft, we descend and maintain.
And all right, do the thing.
Kids flying in a glass cockpit and it's like, hey, turn left heading 270, descend, maintain
3000.
Then they like start twisting everything and getting everything set up.
(38:59):
And then they turn the aircraft.
And I'm like, what are you doing?
Just turn the aircraft.
And they're like, well, we have to dial in everything.
Automation can be a crutch.
It definitely can be.
So think enough.
You're just going to have to just turn the aircraft to send.
So if you're going to fly the system, know the system, but know if it's going to be a
crutch or an enabler.
(39:19):
Technology helps.
It could be a hindrance, right?
And then for the preparation, right?
Because you could train all you want, but you got to get through that evaluation.
What do you do in 141 or 61?
But we're focused on getting right in front of a DPE is apply like the four kind of concepts.
So rote memorization, understanding application correlation, like the kind of four things
and see if I, I'm going to kind of butcher this one a little bit, but I heard it from
(39:39):
a mentor.
You spend a lot of time planning and then you go and you execute.
And then when you're executing, you get to practice those flying skills.
So if you've done a good job planning, you're not going to get challenged at all in that
flying, right?
Because you've already kind of identified and mitigate all those risks on route and
altitude and whatnot.
If you've done a poor job planning, because you've been in a rush, you're trying to push
(40:01):
your own limits.
Now you are getting to the corner of that normal operation, that execution.
Then we have to go to that third bin and that's called skill.
And then you're like, really, you know, you're maybe shooting that approach to minimums or
maybe it's like super dynamic weather.
And how'd you get there?
Because maybe your planning wasn't great and you executed poorly making the decision to
(40:21):
go in the planning dictate.
You shouldn't go.
And now you have to rely on your skills, right?
And you want to use your flying skills very little.
You want to be able to operate in that vanilla like skills to the edge of your flying capabilities
that we're talking about.
Does that kind of make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So if you've done a poor job planning or you made the decision to execute in spite of planning
telling you otherwise, and then you have to at some point rely on your best flying skills
(40:45):
and those run out, what are you stuck with?
Not much.
Luck.
So if you're going out there hoping and using luck as a bin to get a mission done, you shouldn't
be flying.
Goes back to planning.
You know, reflecting back, having the privilege to fly those types of airplanes, you know,
in service to our country and doing that mission and helping to train others and learn from
(41:06):
some of the most amazing pilots who ever had the privilege of knowing not just pilots,
but leaders and mentors has been great.
You want to go fly cool equipment and actually do something truly meaningful in service and
country.
That's a once in a lifetime experience.
And it doesn't matter a guy or a girl, right, need more women in aviation, but we just need
smart capable people.
And I'll leave you this last note, right?
(41:27):
We're like the check valve in the national aerospace system, if that makes sense.
Give the privilege and that certificate to someone who's demonstrated the appropriate
proficiency in the context of the ACS into the national aerospace system.
They're flying over your house and airplanes do crash.
It's like you're not, you're not going to be allowed to go into that national aerospace
system under that certificate until you prove that you can make that, whether it's one task,
(41:49):
whether it's every task in the ACS that you met.
Very good point.
Thank you very much, sir, for joining me today.
And thank you for your service to this country and I really appreciate it.
We'll see you next time on the Aviators Guide.
And don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel.
Follow me on my podcast on every podcast platform that there is out there.
And don't forget to write and review as well.
All right.
Well, y'all have a great one and we'll see you next time.
(42:09):
See you later, aviators.
What's up aviators, welcome to the second half of the DPE episode or Designated Pilot
(00:12):
Examiner episode.
I hope you're pumped for this.
Last time of course, you know, we went over the details of Adam Levine's background and
his history in the military.
And today we're going to be covering more topics on the checkride itself, including
of course, things that you can do to prepare for your checkride and some particular topics
that he has experienced in PPL checkrides in particular.
(00:32):
I hope that you like it and feel free to comment or email me any feedback that you have.
If you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube.
It's free and like this video.
And if you're listening on a podcast, go ahead and follow, rate and review my podcast as
well.
And after the second half of the DPE video, I will continue to go into my ways to build
flight hours.
So keep tuning in to figure out all those ways that you can build your flight hours
(00:53):
so that you can get to your aviation goals faster.
Don't forget to send me your guests that you would like to see on my show.
You can do that via email at your aviators guide at gmail.com.
Now that both halves of the DPE episode are complete, I know that you guys are expecting
to have more ways to build flight hours come out next Friday.
However, I will be taking a short break next Friday because I am doing TBM 930 training
and Epic 1000 training simultaneously.
(01:14):
I need a little bit of time to myself to study and make sure I'm fully prepared for that
training so I can knock it out of the park and be the best pilot I can be.
I appreciate your patience and I will have the continuation of ways to build your flight
hours coming out on November 15th.
If for some reason I'm able to miraculously get an episode out on November 8th, I will
do so.
But for now, we're just going to go with the 15th for the next one.
Thanks again for your patience guys and enjoy the second half of the DPE episode.
(01:36):
So what do you think makes a good DPE?
It's easy.
You know, just be humble and approachable.
They're remembering that they're new pilots, right?
100% right.
And that, you know, that took a little bit of time to kind of get used to.
You know, the Mirage, the average person like walking into that cockpit had like 4,000 fighter
hours.
Very, very experienced pilots.
Now you're walking into an examination with a private pilot who's got maybe the bare minimum
(02:00):
40, 45.
I mean, not a lot.
But most kids have more, right?
So be humble and approachable.
But let's peel that back, right?
A bit more.
And it's not just the walking in the room.
You get requests for check-rides.
Some days are 10, some days are 5, some days are 15.
People text, email, social media, reaching out.
Then you got to schools.
One of the biggest things that the FAA has for their DPEs, again, it's all in chapter
(02:22):
three of the 8095, is you have to basically be a good person.
When people reach out, get them scheduled, try to get them done in a reasonable amount
of time.
You know, be fair and equitable.
How do you operationalize that in our area of operations, like in DFW?
You've got dozens of flight schools.
Some of them are pretty big.
And they have a big machine in the ops department that's just going out there and scheduling
DPEs.
(02:43):
And then you've got other really small flight schools.
You've got a flying club or part-time CFI or kids that are just flying on the weekends.
I had an applicant reach out and we scheduled a date.
And to meet with the kid, I always ask the question, how long have you been waiting?
It was months.
And then I said, how many DPEs did you reach out to?
Holly, he took out three pages of handwritten notes.
(03:03):
Every DPE, he just did an arc of like 400 miles around Denton.
And he was going to some small flying school that did not have an ops department, did the
scheduling.
Email, call, no response, email, call, response, not available.
It takes an emotional toll.
I mean, took an emotional toll on him, but you feel terrible.
Every time an applicant reaches out, I try to respond in a reasonable amount of time.
But the answer may be like, dude, I can only get you in and like, you know, extra one out
(03:25):
of time.
And my schedule is dynamic.
So I try not to schedule out more than four to six weeks.
But I have a notepad, I write down the name, the contact information, the date that they
contacted me.
And I then go down that list when I have slots open up and I reach out to them.
And that's the best you can do.
Every examiner is different.
Every applicant is different.
Bigger schools that have a department that does the scheduling, the applicant is just
going through it and they know they're going to get examiners because they have enough
(03:47):
throughput to guarantee that that examiner shows up is going to do a couple of check
rides.
So the experiences varies depending on what school you go to, what your background is.
So before you even get the room, I send them an applicant form.
I think like we worked together when he had a kid at stature or two.
And he saw the applicant form and he probably deal with a bunch of DPEs.
But I'm like, what is going to make that applicant's life easier in the preparation and my life
(04:09):
easier in determining eligibility?
Do you have IACRA?
Do you have an FDN?
Have you even started an application?
And then by that's like, hey, how many hours do you have?
And then we kind of been it by cross country.
This is for maybe the CFI, who's maybe it's like their first kid that they're nominating
or maybe this applicant, you know, it's just their first certification.
And it gives them a chance to go back in the log book.
I'm like, ah, I'm not even anywhere close to being ready.
(04:31):
Nothing is worse than walking into a room, determining eligibility.
You can't even start the evaluation until you determine eligibility.
What if you're missing an endorsement?
What if that cross country that you did does not meet the eligibility requirements?
We're not even doing a check ride today.
So reaching out to that applicant, setting a date and then also having back updates available,
right?
Because you may discontinue eligibility may be an issue.
(04:52):
Maybe the airplane breaks.
Maybe the weather isn't great.
You can't even get to the point where you get to the brief to start it.
I think that initial interaction with the applicant is important.
Just try to be courteous and email.
Hey, thank you so much for reaching out.
Apologies.
I was late to respond.
Been kind of busy.
Here's my applicant form.
I'll email you back.
Get in the waiting list.
As soon as I have a date, I'll let you know.
I try to update them.
Things that you wish some applicants do better.
(05:13):
Once that name comes up on that list, I reach back out.
It's like you hear nothing back for a week or two weeks.
And I update my notes like, hey, you know, initially email was on 10 September.
Contact back on 20 September.
It's now 6 October and I never back.
And then you get this frantic thing of like, when are we meeting?
I need a date.
You're like, dude, did you not see the email?
You're like, oh yeah, I got busy.
I'm like, that spot was taken.
(05:34):
Now you're back in the list.
And that's frustrating.
I can imagine.
For everyone.
But you are really great about responding.
I really appreciate that.
I'm not sitting on the deep issue.
So I don't know what their experience is like or what they do.
I just know what my process is.
It's cumbersome.
It's time consuming, but it works.
And I think it's equitable.
So then you finally set a date.
You're going for a private check ride.
You got everything ready to go.
We need to have a reason to do the event today, right?
(05:55):
Because the applicant needs to prepare and present a NAV log, depending on the type of
certificate they're going for, to the examiner.
So when we set a date, I try to give it, hey man, we're going to go FDW to Austin.
Plan your NAV to have an estimated time departure two hours after a planned meet time, right?
Well now he's got a destination.
He's got a timeline.
He can do his entire PAVE, right?
(06:16):
Which is basic skeleton of the ACS and the oral discussion.
Look at the pilot, look at the aircraft, look at the environment, look at the external factors.
So if you've done all those things, you're ready to walk into that brief, assuming you've
determined eligibility and the kid is ready, right?
Right.
Hopefully that kind of disarms them a little bit like, oh my God, I'm so worried about
this stuff.
Well, he's given me all the only information to study.
And also I think in my applicant notes, I provide quite a bit of context to the applicant
(06:38):
coming forward.
You do.
So it's a good idea of what we're going to be experiencing in the check ride.
Exactly.
Like, hey, your NAV is going to be to this point today.
Plan the departure time here.
You want to do paper?
Great.
You want to have for-flight?
Great.
Just have something that we can use in the brief.
Please bring the appropriate parts of the aircraft maintenance records because we have
to determine eligibility for the aircraft.
Depending on which certificate you're going for, you're going to have to determine airworthiness
(07:00):
of that aircraft so it's actually built into that.
So hopefully they've come in and they've seen an aircraft logbook before, not just the dispatch
form from their flight ops department, all that before you even go into the check ride
is important.
And that goes into planning for the event.
If you don't plan for the event, the probability of you being successful during the execution
is going to be more difficult.
(07:21):
The other part is, again, I don't get to sit with DPs every week and see how Bob, Jim,
or Mary does their evaluations, right?
I know how I do mine.
I've had my FAA managing specialist come down and audit me and he's like, yep, keep doing
what you're doing, doing great.
Or you can, you know, clean up on these couple areas.
So that's the kind of context you're asking.
Like how do you make someone at ease is like it begins with that email interaction.
You build on the planning before you get into the event.
You always say, reach out if you have any questions.
(07:43):
If you've not opened up the ACS until two days prior to the check ride, whose fault
is that?
It's on the instructor.
It's on the instructor.
Everything is on the instructor.
Now, if you open up the, you know, all the FAA regs in terms of like going up for a check
ride, the ACS is mentioned, I don't know, about 69 times in various parts of like, that
is what you're testing on.
(08:03):
The preparation is the DPE kind of imparting, here's this scenario we're going to do today.
Nothing is preventing that applicant from going to their CFI and maybe doing a rehearsal
for that.
Not saying go all the way down to Austin, present that Navlog in whatever format to
your instructor and then kind of look at it.
Does this make sense?
Can you even get there?
What terrain are we going over?
Do all these things.
And then the other part that the CFI does, and I believe you were doing this at your
(08:26):
school was a mock oral, right?
How many of those have you administered?
So many.
So if a mock oral does not go well, do you still push that kid, that applicant towards
an evaluation?
No.
If they can't pass that oral, there's no point to continue with the check ride.
How about this?
What about the knowledge test report?
70 to pass, an applicant takes their private pilot knowledge test and they walk out, they're
(08:49):
like high-fiving you with a 70.
You have to go back with that applicant and review everything.
Review all the missed knowledge.
And you know if they got a 70, but they probably got lucky in a few, and you got to review
everything, right?
The ACS, which I'm doing a private pilot check ride, that is free to download, right?
Absolutely.
So I, in the oral part, broadly speaking, it's one knowledge, one risk, and all skills.
So you can look to see every one of the questions I'm going to ask.
(09:12):
And it ain't that many from a broad question bank perspective.
And if I've told you the nav of where we're going, and you know the scenario is based
on that nav, you can mission plan to answer all the questions along those lines.
And if you know what airplane you're flying for like area operation one, I think it's
section B, which is airworthiness, it asks you the question, is this airplane airworthy?
How do we determine airworthiness?
(09:32):
When we go into the brief, how is an applicant prepared?
Everything we test today is in accordance with the ACS.
Nothing more, nothing less, okay?
The question is not so complex that you need to take, you know, three different books out.
Memory joggers help.
People use acronyms.
I'm not going to grade you on an acronym.
I'm like, oh my God, he knew A tomato flames.
I guess we're good now, you know?
But okay, you know, and then we're going to operationalize it for that aircraft.
(09:53):
Are you flying a 172?
Dave VFR.
Does this airplane have an ML or KOEL?
Like the thing was built in 1972?
No.
Okay.
So what do we need?
What is the required equipment that you need to have in the aircraft in order to conduct
this flight today in the airplane that we're going to fly in?
And it's A tomato flames.
Like great.
Where does that come from?
And they should cite the appropriate 91 series.
(10:14):
People actually tell you A tomato flames and.
100%.
Yeah.
Because that's what their CFI says.
Just say A tomato flames.
Who defines that?
Does the manufacturer or does your CFI decide that?
Or the guy who owns the airplane?
No, none of those.
It's the FAA that has determined based on codified codes.
This is what you need for Dave VFR.
And they look up the 91 series and they go through it.
(10:37):
And I'm like, awesome.
172, carbureted, you know, direct drive.
Whoa, can we go?
It says manifold pressure.
If they just read in the section above, it's like, if equipped, right?
Right.
What about the Cirrus?
Landing gear position indicator.
Is that going to be a problem today?
Is that correlation of like, what is that requirement?
What's the airplane actually have installed today?
Okay.
So acronyms are meaningless without context and you have to kind of know the reference.
(11:00):
But I say you can have it in your brain.
You can write it out.
And also if they're prepared, remember if you have four flight as an example, you've
got the FAA driving there, all the references are in there.
Or you can go to a variety of sources, ASA or some of the other sporties and get all
their books.
I, every day I go to work, I carry my p-hack, flying handbook, FAR-A, but at any rate, having
(11:21):
context as to where that reference is coming from and if you can't remember it, like how
are we going to get there?
I've had applicants walk in with a hundred on the knowledge test report on an instrument
exam.
I'm like, wow.
And fail the oral.
I've had kids walk in there with a 70.
Best check rides I've ever seen.
But broadly speaking, grades are indicative of future performance, just how it is.
Now hopefully if you've not done well, you've prepared.
(11:41):
Organization is key.
And we could just maybe ask kind of a sample question going on a scenario base, all right?
And we're going down to Austin.
It's a private pilot check ride.
It's Dave VFR.
We're down at AUS and the reason we're going is like barbecue, like barbecue.
We're friends.
So we're going to go down to Austin to check out this new barbecue place because we need
to have a reason to go on the flight.
We're down at Austin, get up IT, get back to the airplane and a representative of the
(12:04):
FAA is doing what is commonly referred to as a ramp check.
And he goes up to the airplane and he's like, God, it's a really nice Cirrus.
And he's like, Hey, who's the pilot?
I'm like, she's a pilot.
All right, cool.
He is going to ask you for your documents.
What should you present to him if a representative of the administrator asks you for your pilot
documents?
That's a great question, Adam.
I'm glad you asked.
So of course you have to present your government issued photo ID, your pilot certificate and
(12:27):
your medical, valid medical.
Perfect.
Okay.
So you are maybe carrying your medical certificate.
Top line says a first class medical and maybe you're under 40 and maybe you got that done
a couple of years ago, maybe two or three years ago.
So I'm going to ask you, is that still a good first class medical?
Then what do you start jumping into?
Then you have to think about how many months that medical is good for and what it degrades
to after that first year of being a first class medical.
(12:50):
Cool.
We're getting barbecue, Holly.
It's like really good, but it's like really expensive.
So I'm like, Holly, thanks for flying me down here.
I'm going to buy your lunch.
I am offering to pay you to fly me down there and that form of compensation is I'm going
to buy your meal.
Can you accept that?
No, because if you're going for PPL, then you can't get paid or compensated for a flight.
(13:10):
What do you mean I can't get paid?
You can't get paid to fly?
No.
Can we share any costs?
Yeah, we share all the costs.
Okay.
What costs can we share?
What are the costs that's associated with the aircraft?
Easiest way to do is, hey, I got my own lunch.
I appreciate it, but it's 20 gallons of gas to get down here as a tie down fee, whatever.
Happy to share that so you can talk about pro rata.
Now you're talking about privilege and limitations.
(13:32):
So all that is a scenario.
When we're going through the old discussion on these different areas of operation, I'm
going to sample every part of the required codes, one knowledge, one risk, and all the
skills and the conduct of that discussion.
So we're supposed to take that SR20 and it broke.
Your school though, they're awesome.
They're like, we got a spare aircraft they tow out of Piper Cub.
(13:54):
One thing is, what are you looking for in the pilot log book in the context of aircraft
single-engine land, right?
Is it a tricycle type landing gear or is it a tail-dragger?
If you're flying with aircraft with equipment you're not familiar with or different configurations.
The answer is no, I don't have the endorsements.
I don't have any training in that aircraft.
So anyway, that's kind of an example of kind of weaving through that scenario.
(14:16):
And we haven't even left pilot requirements, right?
We still got the rest of the thing to go.
So hopefully that kind of gives you a sense of how the discussion goes, right?
So is there a point when you feel like the student isn't doing well and so you dive deeper
or ask different questions depending on how it's going?
Let's look at weather for example.
Looking at a Prague chart, right?
I may point to a graphic and I may say, wow, what is that?
(14:38):
That is a trough.
Okay, cool.
What's that L?
It's a low pressure system.
Okay, here's one.
The little lines, the isogenic lines, right?
And there's numbers next to them.
So I'm like, hey, what's that number like?
That's the number of equal pressure.
I'm like, oh, great.
What is that number?
Well, it's a 1015.
I'm like, what does that mean?
Well, they should say that's the pressure expressed in millibars, right?
(14:59):
Cool.
What is standard day in millibar?
And they should be like, oh.
1013.2.
Okay, cool.
So let's just say, so take that.
Let's just say that the applicant upfront is like, oh my God, I don't know.
Like I said in the pre-brief, you can use different references.
So if you are not sure, what reference would you expect the applicant to look for?
You could look at aviation weather, the book.
You could look at aviation weather.
You could look at aviation weather center.
(15:20):
You could look at the aim.
You can also open up the p-hack.
There's an entire section, multiple chapters on weather.
And there's a part in there that they'll see pressure is presented generally in millibars
and, oh, here's a whole discussion of millibar standard day.
So I'm expecting for them, if they don't know it, to just go to the reference.
Exactly, guys.
That's why it's so important to, if you don't know the answer, we don't have to know everything,
okay?
But you have to know where to find it.
(15:41):
So we talked about the airworth.
Let's kind of jump into that a little bit.
That ramp check we just talked about, the representative, you know, you show him the
documents and then he's like, hey, he wants to look at the aircraft documents.
What are the bare minimum documents you have to have in the airplane to show the administrator?
Your airworthiness, your registration.
And where should the airworthiness and registration be?
(16:02):
Should it be shuffled away?
Viewable to the...
Viewable, right?
Yeah, depending if there's magnetic compass, you have to have the magnetic compass car.
You have to have your P.O.H.
P.O.H.
Or your A.F.M.
Or your airplane flight manual, which is specific to the aircraft.
That's a little difference between the P.O.H. and the A.F.M.
All placards about the aircraft have to be on there.
You need your weight and balance.
Weight and balance, right?
So hopefully they should take that, right?
The basic empty weight, the arm and CG, and I'm actually going to drop it into today's
(16:25):
event to be able to determine whether our flight today will be within the weight and
balance balance of the aircraft.
So you can see we just went from determining airworthiness and jumped right into performance
limitations, right?
And now that applicant is actually correlating what we do with that information.
Some schools have like a dispatch sheet.
I'm like, hey, you know, we good today.
Is the aircraft airworthy?
And they're like, they have a printout.
(16:46):
Everything's in the green.
We're good.
I'm like, dude, I can come up with an Excel spreadsheet and put everything in the green
and we're good.
Show me.
You have to have some sort of the maintenance logs for the check back for the brief.
100%.
But you know, some schools, like big schools, like they'll just have their maintenance department.
It's like a living, breathing kind of live feed of the different aircraft timers, right,
for periodicity.
So we should hopefully be able to look at the aircraft engine prop log.
(17:08):
On occasion, you do get a private owner.
So they may not have a hundred hour.
Private owners, please hire a good mechanic.
Keep your log books organized and straightened out.
I would recommend for the CFI before that applicant goes in, just look at the most current
inspections, you know, have them tapped out like a little note on there.
So you can see them kind of dive in from the airworthiness side, make sure we can go one
level deeper and get a context of determining if the aircraft is airworthy for the flight
(17:31):
that we're doing today.
Perfect.
Yes.
What do you think is one of the biggest mistakes people make on their check ride?
Okay, this is an interesting one on a nav plan.
So we're going from Meacham, FTW to GGG.
Okay, can I see, can I see your nav chart?
Again, I don't care if you want to do paper or for a flight, but the applicant presents
the nav plan.
Holly, you've flown around here a bunch.
(17:52):
You want to do a day VFR flight and you want to go from Meacham out to Longview.
Are you going to go south and then you're going to go out to the east to get out of
the Bravo and plan around that?
Yes.
There's no guarantee you'll get through the Bravo, right?
Right.
On request.
So between here and Longview, if you just cut the line across, that Bravo pretty much
goes down to the surface.
So this happens, it's like, ah, I got us a quick flight out there and he puts a line
(18:14):
direct from FTW right to GGG, cutting through like the most complex parts of the Bravo.
I'm like, oh, awesome.
So we then unpack that.
That is an example where that kid did not spend the time doing the planning for that
event.
They consider the air spaces, requirements to find that airspace, all of these things.
(18:36):
So if he wants to stick to that, I'm going to start picking that apart.
What should happen is the applicant should be like, ah, I think it'll be smart to adjust
that and now they're thinking and then maybe they move their steer points out, especially
if they do it in for a flight, it's pretty easy.
And now I get to see them actually do some mission planning, which is totally fine.
So that's an example from a private pilot.
Believe it or not, times are difficult for people.
So Holly, what is the local time right now?
(18:58):
9 58.
In two minutes, what time will it be?
10 o'clock.
What time is that in Zulu?
1500.
Right now, at least.
You're a CFI, you're in the middle of a podcast and I'm just asking you a question about time.
Imagine we are in a brief and you're focused on the mission at hand and you know we've
been talking about departure time, arrival time.
What time is it now?
Oh, it's 10.
Cool.
What time is that in Zulu?
The amount of blank looks that you get from applicants is incredible, right?
(19:20):
Because that's a question.
It's like conversion to UTC.
Are you serious?
I've seen people say 10 o'clock local, it's five o'clock Zulu.
I'm like, are you sure?
I can't teach an applicant, also not going to be so stern as to be like, we're done,
terrible.
That's just a little cueing, right?
I'm not teaching.
Am I teaching?
And I'm like, use whatever resource you want.
So we're high fiving, we got it, it's 15Z.
(19:41):
What time are we departing?
11 o'clock.
What time is that in Zulu?
And we're back like, oh my God.
And they're doing the counting with their fingers and their toes.
I'm like, oh, okay, we're taking off at 16Z.
All right, it's an hour and a half flight down to Austin.
What time are we arriving in Zulu?
These are all questions out of the ACS.
Pretty basic stuff.
But what does four flight do for you?
Everything.
Everything, everything, everything, everything.
(20:02):
It does everything for you.
But you have to know how it gets those numbers.
100%.
And that's the part of doing your nav log.
Yeah, I've seen one applicant for a private pilot.
I'm like, hey, let's see the weight and balance.
Oh, here it is in the aircraft.
Great.
Let's see how it applies to today's flight.
He's like, hey, I used four flight.
I'm like, four flight, great, have at it.
And generally see like the spider chart, right?
Like your weight and your CG, and then it's like takeoff and landing.
(20:23):
I'm looking for a flight.
You have a circle and you have a square, takeoff and landing.
They were coincident.
So basically we took off at a certain plot in the aircraft center of gravity and we landed
in that same spot.
I'm like, show how's this look?
And he's like, man, that doesn't look right.
And like, all right, are you presenting that to me right now?
He's like, can I, can I work on this?
I'm like, yeah.
(20:44):
He starts getting into the looking underneath the hood and four flight.
Next thing you know, the CG is way after lunch and he is totally flustered.
We have to compete to win, but we have to make sure that no getting for our own safety
and for the ACS like they were good.
And for the last 10 years he's been practicing on pen and paper.
And before the evaluation, he decides to get into the 2024 and go do it on four flight
and it's not working out well.
(21:05):
You just have to present to me a suitable weight and balance.
What else could you do?
He's like, I'm going to do it on pen and paper.
I'm like, perfect.
And he sits there five minutes later, perfect weight and balance opens up the POH.
Now we're in the normal category, takeoff landing.
Everything's great.
It kind of shows that technology, it could be really good.
It can also get you in a little bit of trouble there, right?
Absolutely.
So these are basic questions and what I'm getting at is the applicant, if they don't
(21:27):
know it, should be able to go to reference and should be able to get there from here
within a reasonable amount of time.
There is no question in the ACS that it's not otherwise contained in one of the references.
And that's one of the interesting ones I've seen.
And unfortunately this did result in a notice of disapproval.
He had the NAV and said, okay, have you ever done flight following?
(21:47):
And he's like, yes, sir.
All right, cool.
What about a view of our flight plan?
And he's like, what?
If we want to actually file today, how could you file a view for our flight plan?
And he's like, well, I just do flight following.
I'm like, that's not what I asked.
You answered that question, like how do you actually file a view for a flight plan?
The applicant could not, with all the references available, could not figure out how to file
(22:08):
a view for our flight plan.
Guess what?
That is a question.
It's on the ACS.
That's a pretty basic thing.
I can't help him, but I'm like, what are references?
And he's looking at the far end.
Just not even, it was painful.
I'm like, hey, we'll come back to that so we go to some other areas.
Now I'm kind of sampling and I see, well, there's kind of some gaps in basic knowledge,
like looking at a TAFs, right?
(22:30):
At the destination and the applicant could not, like just basic things in a TAF, right?
Couldn't do it.
Okay, let's go back to the file and the view for our flight plan and still couldn't do
it.
We get to the end of the road.
I'm like, all right, we're done.
This event is disapproved.
Go get your CFI and then I'm going to write out the notice of disapproval, right?
And that was in the oral.
It's really hard when you have an applicant that cannot get past the oral.
(22:53):
That's like, that's bad.
So we give the notice of disapproval and then I bring the CFI in.
If we have a notice of disapproval, always try to get the CFI and the applicant.
So knee to knee, like we're talking now and like we're going to talk about what happens
to the CFI understands, the applicant understands.
Then we're going to answer those questions.
I asked the CFI, how are you going to file this view for our flight plan?
(23:13):
And he's like, oh yeah, 100 weather brief.
I can file it on for a flight, pick it up.
I'm like, cool.
What are the elements of view for our flight plan?
And he's like, well, it's on for a flight or I can look in the foreign aim.
You know, there it is opens up my great.
Why did he not know that?
And the light bulb click with the CFI or the kid, if he didn't know off the top of his
head, the foreign aim, eight, 900 pages, open that up filing via far, open up the tap.
(23:35):
Oh, there it is.
This is how you can do it.
Bottom right in on the, in the application for flight is you, would you like to proceed
to file?
And it's going to show you the elements over there.
Anyway, that's an example that did not go well.
Another failure.
We're doing the pre-flight brief.
So the pre-flight brief is rushing and talk about how we're going to go out first, nav
point, and then we're going to divert off and do some maneuvers.
And then we're going to go to some an outlying field.
So I'm going to go over the maneuvers.
(23:56):
I'm going to talk about the ACS standards of that maneuver.
So there's no question in that applicant's mind, especially the landing stuff.
Hey, remember zero plus 400 feet is zero plus 200 feet.
And one of the items there is spin awareness, right?
You are flying power on stall.
So I say, Hey, God forbid we have the wrong input in there and we end up in a spin.
What are you going to do?
So there's some basic concepts from spin awareness for general aviation aircraft.
(24:17):
Well, we have our acronyms for it, depending on the aircraft.
Depending on the aircraft, right?
Depending on the aircraft.
But there's an acronym that people like to use.
And what is that acronym?
Pair.
Pair, right?
Except for if you're flying a Piper Archer, technically it's supposed to be REAP.
REAP.
And I asked the applicant, what is the recovery?
And she says pair.
All right.
What does that mean?
She's like, it means pair.
I was like, wow, okay.
No concept.
(24:38):
Oh, wow.
Like nothing.
There's nothing there.
There is nothing there.
I'm not flying unless you can give me some deeper level of knowledge on spin awareness.
With the reference, could not even, it started then started making things up.
So we're done.
We're done.
And that's kind of frustrating.
We haven't even gotten in the aircraft.
Right.
During the practical, we have to do like a diversion exercise in the private, right?
(25:01):
So in the pre-flight briefing, we say, hey, at some point I'm going to try to get you
lost.
And the way I get them lost is we kind of do maneuver after maneuver after maneuver.
And really what I'm doing is I'm putting them in like a big box in this area that I know
is going to be clear of other aircraft.
And we're always clearing.
In my mind, I'm like, God forbid something happens that I could pitch into any one of
these four places, right?
Because I want to go home as well.
You're flying somewhere, you get lost.
How do you get un-lost, right?
(25:22):
And you have a variety of capabilities.
Now we are operating southwest of Benbrook Lake.
For your listeners, if you look at the southwest corner of a class B, there's Benbrook Lake.
And you kind of outside the Bravo as you get a bit further southwest of that.
And you've got lots of little airports right there.
So anyway, the kid is like getting the aircraft set up, doing all these maneuvers, doing great.
I'm like, cool.
Hey, where is Claybrook Airport?
Where is KCPT, brother?
Where is Claybrook Airport?
(25:43):
How are we going to get there?
How long is the day?
They are looking outside.
They start turning the aircraft.
He's got four-fly with GPS.
I'm not using any of it.
Not is like, ah, and he's like, now he's like zooming in and then he zooms way off aircraft
position, can't figure out how to get back to Arizona.
For the viewers, it's 15 miles just southeast of us.
I mean, you can see the lake.
Now I know because we're operating there.
(26:03):
But to be clear, this applicant has flown in the flight school locally, has flown in
this area a lot.
And that's a very basic question.
I'm going to value after just sit there as we're kind of droning along.
We're doing this for 15 minutes.
Oh, man.
You cannot have that person flying in the National Airspace System when you've got a
GPS equipped aircraft, you've got a GPS enabled EFB, you've got a sectional, you've got your
(26:24):
eyeballs in your backyard.
I say, hey, the rise is proof.
Now to go back, there are three outcomes of an evaluation.
There is issuing a temperament certificate.
There is a letter of discontinuance.
If you have an issue with weather or maintenance or some physio like, okay, we just can't keep
going for whatever reason.
Cool.
So what we've done, you come back, retest and finish up.
That may be in the same day.
Maybe we get back, jump in a spare aircraft, wait for the weather to clear, whatever it
(26:46):
is.
And then you have a notice of disapproval.
We cannot wait until the end of the event.
I got to tell them pretty much right then and there, hey, this oral is disapproved.
We're going to have to retest another day.
You have to go and get retrained.
During the practical, you can't have a maneuver that exceeds an ACS and just like let it go
and wait till you get back two hours later and then be like, you remember that thing?
You can figure it out.
Yeah, that failed.
(27:07):
I'll recite that portion of the ACS and I'll say, hey, the ride is disapproved.
But then we have options like a brief him on it.
He understands what he failed and I'd say, hey, do you want to continue?
You can actually go and do all the other maneuvers.
And that's exactly what we did.
And you know what?
He did great on everything else.
And a week later we went out, tried to get him lost, couldn't get him lost.
I mean, he was like over-prepared.
I went to a wholly different area, like middle of nowhere at a thousand feet.
(27:30):
Every farm and ranch looked like the other one outside of a VOR range.
Shut off his GPS.
Climbed up, looked around.
Oh, here's this, that, the other thing, VOR, cross check, we're good.
I'm like, wow, okay.
Awesome.
Yeah, fixed that.
And that guy is a really good example of whenever you are in a checkride and something didn't
go just like you wanted it to, but you still passed it, don't let it snowball you.
And he failed already, but he didn't let it snowball and he completed the rest of it to
(27:54):
satisfaction.
Just a couple other concepts without getting into too much detail.
Diving into a pattern aggressively without entering one of the kind of the accept-as-ways,
either 45 to downwind.
Really cutting out an aircraft as it's tapering the downwind.
So the applicant is descending so they're not even at TPA a couple miles prior.
And this is the other part, it's like, I cannot allow a violation to occur.
We're not going to hit anyone.
(28:14):
I'm going to watch how this applicant does it.
They're about to cut someone off.
They're going about 30 knots faster than flap speed.
So they're well after the white arc.
And the applicant just starts going into their pre-landing checklist to grab the flap lever.
I had to stop them, right?
Because I'm like, I don't want to break this airplane, not my airplane.
Like I rest the flaps and set up the controls and we maneuver away.
(28:35):
And the applicant was totally surprised.
So that's a condition where a hazard was really kind of appearing over here.
I can only take it a certain amount of time before we start impacting everyone else.
We basically failed on three different things simultaneously, right?
If that kind of makes sense, like pattern entry, communication, and then general flying
the aircraft.
And the applicant broke down in tears.
I'm like, you're the pilot in command, physically unable to fly for a couple minutes.
And she decided to just go back home.
(28:56):
So no continuing on.
And then we were retested another week and did great.
During an emergency, if you have to take controls, is that an automatic failure?
No, let's operationalize it a little bit, right?
When we're doing the commencement check ride, for example, on the safety pilot, because
the applicant has the view limit device on, I try to, in the conduct evaluation, like
steer them away from traffic.
(29:17):
Because everyone else out there is just tilling around VFR.
So I will give them vectors.
But sometimes, I call it the crazy Ivan from another aircraft.
And that is like, they're doing their own maneuvers out there.
I'm trying to give them vectors to final an aircraft.
And they just like turn into us.
I'm like, there is no way.
So I try to give vectors, or then I'll just tell the applicant, like, I need you to turn
left or climb or descend.
My third condition is, I need to get on the controls, right?
(29:39):
Because something just materialized out of nowhere.
Usually around North Texas, what do we see a lot of?
Birds.
Yeah, lots of birds.
Lots of birds.
And the kids on the view limit device, there's no idea, like we're going through a swarm
of buzzards over there.
And like a buzzard just comes in out of nowhere.
And I just got to get on the controls.
One time on a soft field landing commercial certificate, the applicant, we're doing a
wheelie.
A bit of a crosswind, and we are tracking into the runway edge lights.
(30:02):
And he's not recognizing.
So like, I've got my little safety box.
But once you hit the corner of that box, like, I'm going home tonight.
So I'm like, my controls, you know, kind of arrest it.
That's an immediate unsat.
Remember, we both have to agree to continue if we want to do it.
I'm not agreeing to continue after that.
Like, when you trespass that kind of zone, like I was like, we're good.
We're done for the day.
(30:23):
General trends, right, for a private pilot, the landing piece is kind of hard.
And go arounds are free, normal, soft field, short field.
But if you can't make the ACS tolerance, like go around, go around, go around.
We got like, you have so many go arounds.
You can't just keep doing it.
And there's not a number.
There's not a number where you can't get there from here.
And if they don't make the ACS tolerance, you know.
(30:44):
On the instrument, common trends are, hate to say, it's, again, my experience, you know,
non-precision MDA.
They just descend past MDA.
Not good.
Or they get to MDA and they don't even get to the missed a perch point.
Like, we're done.
They, it's like, what, wait, can't help you there.
You know, so that's an example from the instrument.
And then the commercial is, I hate to say, the PowerF 180 is probably one of the more.
(31:06):
Really?
Yeah, PowerF 180.
It's one of the harder maneuvers to do, I think, in the commercial certificate.
And remember, on that one for the ACS, you go around for safety.
That is to say, you got a hazard, like, oh my God, we're going to hit something, a bird,
another airplane.
Or we're going to crash because you did not manage energy properly.
But if you're like, not, like, I'm not going to make the ACS tolerance, you know, you go
around like there's no, because it's a power off.
(31:27):
Exactly.
So you get one shot.
But in the preflight, preflight, go into detail on that.
Right.
So I'm like, hey, you know, maybe the kids are choosing the thousand footers as an example.
And they're like, they don't think they're going to make it.
But I'm like, they're just manage your energy, your performance in the energy management
will decide whether you make it or not.
Right.
But if you are like, I'm not going to make it.
And then you go around, you were kind of done at that point.
(31:47):
Right.
What I've been surprised with is these Cessnas, they will float forever.
And I'm like, oh, there's no way we're going to make it.
And he or she, they're eating every last ounce of energy out of that aircraft.
They're beautifully managing it.
And we just sail right into that desired landing.
So don't give up.
What can you tell us about the appeals process for a checkride?
I've heard about a couple of students, not with you, obviously, but who didn't think
(32:09):
that they were graded fairly.
So it goes back to popular rights.
I brief every applicant on that and actually use a scenario of like, hey, if you think
I messed something up today, you can talk to my managing specialist, give you the contact
information and they can reach out to them.
The 8,000.95 Charlie actually has a whole section there on like what happens if the
applicant is not satisfied with the outcome of the event?
They can advocate and talk to the managing specialist.
Every applicant should know that and that's what they should do.
(32:30):
But anyway, can I ask you a question?
You can advocate in the managing specialist office.
I've never had to go through that experience.
I hope I never do, but there's a process for that.
What is your take on the checkride gouge?
A lot of DPs have them.
So pilots know, oh, they usually cover this.
The gouge is the ACS.
That's the gouge.
If you and your CFI and the mock oral can apply the nav that I'm going to give to you
(32:51):
and have a discussion and use a paved checklist, which is basically the ACS checklist for the
oral and get through that, you shouldn't have an issue and then be able to go look at the
knowledge and the risk and the skills.
Just make sure you can either remember it or know the reference for that.
There's nothing that complex about it.
How do DPs come up with their rates?
Is it just based on like a market value or?
The guidance is charged no more than a reasonable market rate.
(33:13):
So today it's whenever October of 2024, I charge a thousand dollars for private and
commercial multi.
That's my fee.
Context wise, I have to do all my continuing education, stay abreast of everything, checking
your email, getting back with applicants, doing all the scheduling, doing all the de-confliction
I have to do for my schedule to make the time to go me with that applicant.
We have to do pre-activity reporting, post-activity reporting and then be available.
(33:35):
What if the certificate never shows up?
That could be months later.
I have to go back to that applicant, get a hold of them and work that out.
Oh, by the way, the amount of training that we've gone through just to get in the door,
like I didn't get paid to go to that FAA training.
Like we paid and we spent weeks and months getting ready for that event.
It is not an insignificant exercise.
Absolutely.
So, recommendation, right?
What drives you bonkers is you get a text, I need a private check, right?
(34:00):
When?
That's it, you know?
Who, what?
Who is this?
Yeah.
Hey Adam, so and so, I'm at this school, at this airport, I'm working on this certificate,
I'm almost done with my endorsements, I'm looking for a date sometime in the next 60,
90 days.
Are you available?
And then like a contact information.
Or you get the email.
I need an instrument check like tomorrow.
(34:21):
Or I just got canceled.
Like I can't begin to even help you on that part.
How much time do you need to prepare to get ready for a check, right?
You need, so this is important, right?
I need to inform my managing specialist 24 hours prior to an event.
No later than 24 hours prior than the day before.
I go into DMS and I tell them what event I'm doing, where I'm doing it, what type of aircraft
I'm doing it, and who we're doing the evaluation for.
(34:41):
Because they technically can show up and observe any one of those events.
So you always have to be prepared for that.
Yeah.
I'll share something with your listeners.
This happened recently.
It was really kind of a lightning bolt moment for me.
I had done like several back to back to back, like two a day, several days in a row.
And had an applicant fly up here from like another city.
Do the event.
He lands.
He's like, hey, do you mind if I top off the aircraft?
(35:01):
I'm like, yeah, I'll go do the paperwork.
Do the paperwork.
And I go through the thing.
I did not do stalls.
And so flake.
Oh.
The kid comes in.
And at the same moment, he's like, we both say we didn't do stalls.
So what do you do?
We started back up.
We went out.
We did stalls.
What I did do is I called my managing specialist, 07 the next morning.
He's like, what happened?
I'm like, oh my God.
I'm about to lose my DP.
(35:22):
And he's like, you did the right thing.
One, you went out and you finished the event the way you're supposed to.
You didn't skip anything per the ACS.
And then you just told the applicant, like, yeah, I made a mistake.
And you went out and you completed.
And he's like, if the applicant would have failed, you would have failed.
So people make mistakes.
But that was a humbling moment because we're trying to get done a reasonable amount of
time.
Right?
Absolutely.
There is one thing I know a lot of pilots are whenever they fail a checkride, it's detrimental
(35:44):
to some of them.
They think that their careers are going to be hindered so much by it.
So what would you say to those pilots who have failed a checkride?
You're not a bad pilot because you failed a checkride.
I went to fight training.
I had an issue in the T2 Buckeye, the T45, and the Top Gun.
I had multiple reflies.
Probably the most of any candidate that had gone through.
Failing is a part of life.
And that's OK.
You just have a bad day.
Don't let that mark you for the rest of your life.
(36:06):
Yes, it's a logbook entry.
Own up to it.
If you are getting on a private instrument commercial, whatever rating certificate you're
going for, and you're going out for an interview because you want to be a professional pilot
and they'll be like, have you ever failed a thing before?
Be honest.
I've seen it in the interview.
If that comes up even, like, yep.
You know, it was a Power Rf 180 for my commercial pilot certificate.
And I landed long or I landed short of the ACS tolerance.
(36:28):
And it kind of sucked.
But I went out there two days later and knocked it out of the park.
Cool.
Move on.
Like, that's simple.
Don't dwell on it.
It's not the end of the world, guys.
No, no.
It's not the end of the world.
Do you happen to have a checkride that tends to have more failures than other checkrides?
No.
It's funny to say that several months ago, it was like private instrument commercial
will do several different in a week.
And it's a week of like disapproval, disapproval, disapproval, disapproval, like four or five
(36:51):
in a row.
Wow.
I call my managing specialist and he's like, how's that week going for you?
Because he gets to see all the paperwork.
He sees it like immediately almost.
Oh, yeah, because I have to submit the post activity report and DMS to him.
And I'm like, Kendall, this has been terrible.
I'm like, am I doing something wrong?
He's like, dude, no, it's just trend over time.
Are you applying the ACS?
Yes.
(37:11):
Is it pretty obvious what's happening?
It was like an oral, a power off 180, a single engine climb out on something.
It's like totally different things.
He's like, it's fine.
Just note it.
You know, be very professional in those disapproval.
Be available for retest if it works in your schedule.
If you look at a discontinuance, you have 60 days unless knowledge test medical or endorsement
(37:31):
expires.
For disapproval, it is also 60 days unless one of those other events happens.
Don't forget if it's a disapproval, it's a new ACRA application as well.
Here's some advice you have for newer pilots.
Are you doing this as a career or as a hobby?
If you're going to go to a full time flying program, do your research.
There's marketing out there and don't forget they're looking to get numbers up, but really
(37:54):
find a school that fits for your kind of unique circumstance, budget type of aircraft and
location.
I would ask questions if you're applying like, hey, are you basically a 141 or you're a 61?
You know, I don't want to say we got schools that are like puppy mills out there, but they're
just trying to get as many kids as you can through there.
Good luck kid, go find a DPE.
Yeah, they may have gotten through their private pilot training in record time, but they're
(38:17):
waiting months to do a check ride.
That's not good.
So do your research out there.
Read the reviews.
As you're learning to fly the aircraft, this is again, I grew up flying on dials, right?
Like the T2 Buckeye, the T-34, it was basically a six pack up to a supersonic, high subsonic
jet.
Even the Mirage, the one I jumped into for the check ride, it was basically a six pack.
(38:37):
I'll give a vector ticket or just like have them turn and climb.
So we're doing a private check ride, turn left heading 270, descend, maintain 3000.
And they just start turning the aircraft, we descend and maintain.
And all right, do the thing.
Kids flying in a glass cockpit and it's like, hey, turn left heading 270, descend, maintain
3000.
Then they like start twisting everything and getting everything set up.
(38:59):
And then they turn the aircraft.
And I'm like, what are you doing?
Just turn the aircraft.
And they're like, well, we have to dial in everything.
Automation can be a crutch.
It definitely can be.
So think enough.
You're just going to have to just turn the aircraft to send.
So if you're going to fly the system, know the system, but know if it's going to be a
crutch or an enabler.
(39:19):
Technology helps.
It could be a hindrance, right?
And then for the preparation, right?
Because you could train all you want, but you got to get through that evaluation.
What do you do in 141 or 61?
But we're focused on getting right in front of a DPE is apply like the four kind of concepts.
So rote memorization, understanding application correlation, like the kind of four things
and see if I, I'm going to kind of butcher this one a little bit, but I heard it from
(39:39):
a mentor.
You spend a lot of time planning and then you go and you execute.
And then when you're executing, you get to practice those flying skills.
So if you've done a good job planning, you're not going to get challenged at all in that
flying, right?
Because you've already kind of identified and mitigate all those risks on route and
altitude and whatnot.
If you've done a poor job planning, because you've been in a rush, you're trying to push
(40:01):
your own limits.
Now you are getting to the corner of that normal operation, that execution.
Then we have to go to that third bin and that's called skill.
And then you're like, really, you know, you're maybe shooting that approach to minimums or
maybe it's like super dynamic weather.
And how'd you get there?
Because maybe your planning wasn't great and you executed poorly making the decision to
(40:21):
go in the planning dictate.
You shouldn't go.
And now you have to rely on your skills, right?
And you want to use your flying skills very little.
You want to be able to operate in that vanilla like skills to the edge of your flying capabilities
that we're talking about.
Does that kind of make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So if you've done a poor job planning or you made the decision to execute in spite of planning
telling you otherwise, and then you have to at some point rely on your best flying skills
(40:45):
and those run out, what are you stuck with?
Not much.
Luck.
So if you're going out there hoping and using luck as a bin to get a mission done, you shouldn't
be flying.
Goes back to planning.
You know, reflecting back, having the privilege to fly those types of airplanes, you know,
in service to our country and doing that mission and helping to train others and learn from
(41:06):
some of the most amazing pilots who ever had the privilege of knowing not just pilots,
but leaders and mentors has been great.
You want to go fly cool equipment and actually do something truly meaningful in service and
country.
That's a once in a lifetime experience.
And it doesn't matter a guy or a girl, right, need more women in aviation, but we just need
smart capable people.
And I'll leave you this last note, right?
(41:27):
We're like the check valve in the national aerospace system, if that makes sense.
Give the privilege and that certificate to someone who's demonstrated the appropriate
proficiency in the context of the ACS into the national aerospace system.
They're flying over your house and airplanes do crash.
It's like you're not, you're not going to be allowed to go into that national aerospace
system under that certificate until you prove that you can make that, whether it's one task,
(41:49):
whether it's every task in the ACS that you met.
Very good point.
Thank you very much, sir, for joining me today.
And thank you for your service to this country and I really appreciate it.
We'll see you next time on the Aviators Guide.
And don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel.
Follow me on my podcast on every podcast platform that there is out there.
And don't forget to write and review as well.
All right.
Well, y'all have a great one and we'll see you next time.
(42:09):
See you later, aviators.
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