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June 30, 2025 68 mins

Elsa Razborsek joins The Blunt Dollar for a deep, nuanced conversation on nonlinear careers, women in finance, and the behavioural biases that shape both our portfolios and personal lives. 

From Goldman Sachs analyst to health coach and back to finance, Elsa’s journey is anything but typical, and it’s exactly that winding path that fuels her insights today.

In this episode, we talk about:
🔄 Career pivots and the power of nonlinear paths
👩‍💼 Navigating visibility, ambition, and bias as a woman in finance
🧠 Coaching insights on stress, burnout, and sustainable high performance
📉 Behavioural finance: how sunk cost fallacy and blind spot bias derail decisions
🧠 Why journaling, self-awareness, and dopamine matter more than spreadsheets

If you're into investing, mindset, and the messy truth behind high-achieving careers, this one's for you.

Oh, and if you haven't already... subscribe to The Blunt Dollar for more raw and honest finance conversations.

New episodes drop every other week! Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.

And last, but not least, don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ignacio-ramirez-moreno-cfa/

Enjoy the episode!

Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It does not constitute financial, investment, or legal advice. Listeners should consult a qualified financial professional before making any financial decisions.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
very senior manager.
He was telling me about thechallenges of managing very
skilled portfolio managers whoare still falling prey to
behavioral biases.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Blunt Dollar
.
Today's guest, Elsa Rasmussek,started her finance career at
Goldman Sachs as a sell-sideequity analyst.
Then, after an MBA and a stintin corporate finance at Shell,
she pivoted again, this time tocoaching from Goldman Sachs, JP
Morgan across Europe, the US andAsia.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
The more I read, the more I realized that there were
so many parallels between how webehave in investing and how we
behave in our romanticrelationships and, oftentimes,
how we do.
One thing is how we doeverything.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
What would you advise to someone who's trying to
figure out when the path isn'tlinear?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
You need to be mindful of geography and there
are markets where career pivotsand non-linear backgrounds are
way more accepted and valued.
You need to become reallyintentional about.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
This is the Blonde Dollar with Ignacio Ramírez or
legal advice.
This content is forinformational and educational
purposes only and should not berelied upon as a substitute for
professional advice.
Always do your own research andconsult a qualified advisor
before making any financialdecisions.
All investments involve risk,including the potential loss of
capital.
And now let's get started withthe episode.
Welcome everyone to a newepisode of the Blunt Dollar.

(01:42):
Today's guest brings a uniqueblend of Wall Street grit,
coaching, insight and emotionalintelligence to the table.
Elsa Rasmus Borshek started herfinance career at Goldman Sachs
as a sell-side equity analyst.
Then, after an MBA and a stintin corporate finance at Shell,
she pivoted again, this time tocoaching, and not just anyone.

(02:03):
Elsa has coached high-achievingprofessionals from Goldman
Sachs, jp Morgan across Europe,the US and Asia.
Now she's returning to theworld of finance with fresh
energy and perspective,one-shaded by spreadsheets,
slipknot nights, capital markets, car pivots, equity reports and
real life.
In this episode we'll get intowhat it's really like to

(02:24):
navigate finance as a woman,both from the inside and the
coach's chair, how stress andwellness show up for finance
pros, and how to manage bothbetter and the psychological
traps we all fall into, whetherwe're managing portfolios or
personal relationships.
Elsa's voice is smart, groundedand refreshingly human.

(02:44):
So this isn't just aboutmarkets.
It's about mindset, resilienceand what it means to live with
both intellect and empathy.
Elsa, I'm super excited to haveyou on the show.
Welcome to the Blonde Dollar.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Thank you so much for that raving introduction and
I'm excited for thisconversation too.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
So let's get started.
Tell us a little bit about you.
What is it that you're doingtoday?

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Sure, well, today I'm chatting with you, then I have
a couple more calls and thenobviously the school runs and
all that jazz.
But perhaps, if you want me tostart a little bit with my
background, you already gavequite a nice intro there.
But perhaps for a bit ofcontext, I'm originally from
Portugal, born and raised inLisbon and, unlike perhaps

(03:32):
yourself and certainly myhusband, who always knew he
wanted to work in finance,actually I had other plans when
I was a kid.
I had these lofty goals that Iwould help make humanity
healthier and I wanted to be ascientist and make some
meaningful contribution in themedical field.
So my undergrad degree and mymaster's degree originally were
in biological engineering, andit was only during my master's

(03:53):
in biological engineering that Ibecame acquainted with the
finance world.
We had this subject calledFundaments of Management, and
that's when I heard for thefirst time about the time value
of money and IIIR and PVs,things like that, because we're
being thought uh about how toevaluate engineering projects

(04:14):
and if you want to build afactory, is this a good business
or is it not?
And that's when I really becamefascinated by investing Um and
then ended up at Goldman Sachswhen the firm came to do one of
those campus recruiting eventsto recruit summer interns.
And, long story short, afterinterviews in Madrid and London,
I landed a role as a summerintern in the Global Investment

(04:35):
Research Division in London in2007.
So right when we started seeingheadlines about the subprime
mortgage crisis in the US, andthen, on the back of that, I was
offered a full-time role once Ifinished my degree.
So I started as a sell-sideequity research analyst in

(04:56):
January 2008.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
So I saw all the global financial crisis.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yes, it was a good good induction.
Did that for a few years in thecity, then decided to take a
break from the city of London,enrolled in a full-time MBA
program in the Netherlands, butmy husband in business school
ended up staying here, so I'mcalling in from the Hague today.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Wow, what a story.
Oh my God.
Yeah, like there's a lot ofengineering students that
definitely move, or people to,to the finance industry because
of, yeah, the great technicalskills that you have and that's
obviously very sought after bythe big investment banks and now
, basically, so from theconversations I've had with you,

(05:37):
I understand that you want togo back to the industry, to
something similar to what youwere doing at the beginning,
like equity research.
What is drawing you back to theindustry after a few years on
the sidelines?

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Sure.
So I never really lost touchwith the industry.
First of all, my husband is abanker, so finance conversations
are part of the dinner tablesort of chat.
I also have my closest friendswho still work in the industry
and, unsurprisingly, I'vecoached many finance
professionals over the years inmy coaching practice.
But the reason I stepped offcorporate was in great part

(06:16):
because I became a mother and Iwanted more flexibility and
freedom to be present with myyoung family, and that's when I
also decided to put my corporatecareer on pause and launch my
coaching practice.
Now that my kids are a bit older, more independent, I feel like
it's time for mommy to have abit of a renaissance.
And I'm really going fullcircle, because I never lost my

(06:40):
fascination for business andinvesting and now I'm just going
back to that and bringing backthat element of my interest to
the forefront.
And I'm, like you mentioned,like I would be open to going
back to equity research, butperhaps even more being on the
buy side rather than the sellside.

(07:01):
I always found also privatebanking very fascinating private
wealth management and I'meffectively looking more into
finding a role where I can bringmy knowledge of finance but
also the skills that I developedas a coach that have more to do
with client relationshipmanagement and people skills.

(07:21):
So even investor relations isanother field that always
fascinated me, but in a way itfeels like really going back to
something that I just put alittle bit on the back burner
but I never completely abandoned.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
So probably by the time people are listening to
this, you already have one ofthose jobs in one of those
fields.
So, but yeah, talking aboutcoaching, I have a question
because the finance industry,particularly the IB world, often
glorifies like nonstop hardcoreperformance, While coaching I
have the feeling it's acompletely different world that

(07:54):
emphasizes more like presenceand reflection.
How did switching between thesetwo worlds shift your
perspective on what highperformance in the finance
industry actually looks like?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
I think perhaps what really changed was my
understanding of what highperformance really is as opposed
to peak performance, and Ithink the key here is
sustainability is sustainability.
So when you're thinking about IBor even sell-side research,
which is part of the IB funnel,at the end of the day it's very

(08:31):
fast-paced, it's about makingdecisions quickly, getting
results moving fast, gettingpromotions quite fast, climbing
the ladder.
It's all very, very much abouthitting quick milestones, but
often, like when you have a peak, you can have a crash after
that and it's not necessarilysustainable.
For me, what I've realized withhigh performance is that

(08:52):
ability of sustaining goodresults or great results on a
continuous basis over time, andthat is achieved when you're not
just running on go-go mode allthe time, burning your fumes,
but it's when you're also takinggood care of yourself and being
more intentional about yourlifestyle overall to be able to

(09:16):
hit those milestones and notburn out.
So I think that's really wheremy perspective on high
performance changed.
I also trained later on, asidefrom just general coaching
training.
I trained as a health coach, asa nutrition coach, and those
elements of biology really playsuch a huge role in our ability
to perform over time.
So that's an appreciation thatI gained over the years.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
You used the word there that I love, which is
intentionality.
I feel it's such an underratedconcept Honestly, like a lot of
us, I mean I think this doesn'tapply only for the finance
industry, but really any job orsector sometimes just like start
working and you see how thingsgo and just improvise along the

(10:00):
way.
But I think really the magichappens when you start being
intentional about your time,about what you want to achieve,
set up a plan and really try toyeah, to achieve those goals.
Very clearly, I am obsessedright now with this sentence I
heard in a podcast, which isthat work expands to fill all

(10:22):
available space, a little bitlike gas.
And when you're intentional andyou define some objectives and
say, okay, today, I want toachieve this this week, this
year, and you name it, and thenyou let work take over
everything else, you become alot more productive and you
achieve a lot more than if youjust start working and improvise

(10:44):
along the way.
I mean it's a completelydifferent mindset shift, right.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, and I think also you know it depends on the type
of work you do, but in a lot ofthese roles there's a constant
deal flow.
Or if you're covering a lot ofsmall and mid-cap companies,
like we used to at our team atGS, it's like you have earning
season all year round.
You could stay at the officeevery day until 2 am and still

(11:10):
not do everything that needs tobe done.
So it's about also having thatdiscipline to knowing when
enough is enough.
And now I need aself-preservation break and not
feeling guilty or feeling likeyou're slacking because you're
doing that, because when we'rejust in go-go mode and burning
out and we're sleep deprivedbecause sleep is often the first

(11:32):
thing that goes we don't evenrealize it.
We think we're performing, butour cognitive ability is
declining and, as a result,we're not performing at our best
, which then means that we mightneed to work even longer hours

(11:52):
and it becomes a vicious circle.
So it really requires havingthe discipline and the
self-awareness to realize whenit's time to slow down 100%.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
I want to dig in so many of those things that you
just alluded to, but before wetalk about all of that, and also
particularly the role of sleep,because I think, honestly,
honestly, it's number oneproductivity hack out there
Again, also super underrated.
But maybe to close this firstpart of the conversation where
we're talking about you and thiscareer pivot that you're

(12:19):
considering, what would youadvise to someone who's trying
to figure out how to take theirnext step when the path isn't
linear, like your case has been?

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, I think first of all, we need to normalize
nonlinear paths.
I think that when you look atvery successful people after, in
hindsight, you see how theybecame really successful, but
when they were climbing thatmountain, um, perhaps they were
failing along the way.
I mean, even Jeff Bezos had astint of other businesses before

(12:56):
he became really successfulwith Amazon.
So I think, first of all, weneed to normalize the nonlinear
Um.
But then also, I think peopleneed to think that if they're
feeling lost, they've beenunsure about their next step, it
doesn't mean that they'rebroken or that they're failing.
It means that they're stilliterating.
So think about it as trainingand reframe it.
It's a bit like being ascientist and obviously I come

(13:17):
from a science background and asa scientist you come up with a
hypothesis, you go and test itin the lab, do an experiment and
then, based on the results youget, you iterate.
So I think it's important tothink from that lens when you're
looking to pivot, and then it'sreally about figuring out what
energizes you and then doublingdown on your strengths while

(13:39):
managing all the rest.
That's, I think, where you'regoing to really find a career
path that you can become reallysuccessful at, but can also be
sustainable for yourself, andtry to find what that sweet spot
is for you.
And, to be honest, I think thatdetours are not necessarily

(14:03):
something that should be frownedupon.
It's something that actuallycan give you a leverage that
other people don't have, becausewhen we do a detour, you gain
other transferable skills thatyou can bring to your role later
on and you'll be able toconnect dots between topics in
ways that other people, who hada more linear path, cannot do.
So I think it's really aboutperceiving that has a strength

(14:25):
rather than a weakness and,honestly, when we think about
the age of AI and we keep sayingthat the human skills and being
flexible and emotionalintelligence are actually going
to be key for humans to becomerelevant, I think that's where
these detours also can be reallyseen as a positive, because,

(14:45):
for example, if you take a pausefor caregiving, what best
training can you get ondeveloping emotional
intelligence than caregiving?
I think hardly any.
So I think it's really aboutleveraging those skills Now,
with all these things said, andnow we're talking more in terms
of how we need to reframe how weview pivots, I think you need

(15:07):
to be mindful of geography andthere are markets where career
pivots and non-linearbackgrounds are way more
accepted and valued.
So, for example, when I wasworking in London at Goldman
Sachs so I come from abiological engineering
background and I had colleagueswho had been professional
musicians, who had been TVpresenters, who had majored in
literature, and all thesedifferent skill sets were valued

(15:29):
and it was perceived as thesepeople were bringing different
perspectives.
Now, for example, in continentalEurope and you'll tell me what
your experience is inSwitzerland but I find that this
type of nonlinear paths tend tonot be perceived as positively.
Continental Europe tends to bemore conservative and managers
tend to prefer linear paths.

(15:49):
So I think if somebody islooking to pivot in a market
like this, you need to becomereally intentional about telling
your story and crafting yourstory in a way that highlights
your transferable skills topotential hiring managers, not
just on your CVs and coverletters, but also in
conversations.
And that's where networkingbecomes really, really important

(16:12):
, because in a conversation youcan do what a CV often can't do,
which is connect the dots forpeople on how you can actually
help them in their own goals attheir company.
So, in a nutshell, I would saythat for anyone who's on a
nonlinear path.
It's really about rememberingthat it's not a detour.
It's training, really figuringout what your strengths are,
staying open to iteration andnot be afraid to tell your story

(16:35):
, but in a way that makes otherpeople see the value in your
journey.
So that would be my advice.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Wow, I loved everything you said.
Honestly, I agree basicallywith everything you're saying.
So I might be a bit biased here, but yeah, I'm a big fan also
of nonlinear journeys.
I like people that are a bitdifferent, that think outside
the box, that bring somethingdifferent to the table.
Yeah, and a lot of times Iwonder, like I don't know if

(17:01):
it's a cultural thing, as youwere saying, or something else
but why is it that we as humanbeings, particularly on some
sectors, are so obsessed withthese linear journeys?
Is it because is it rooted inour brain, like?
Is it genetic, in the sensethat we like certainty and we
are not comfortable with, youknow, people doing things

(17:24):
different than us?
Or is it because more peoplewish they had nonlinear journeys
and they're jealous of thosethat do it and then add a bit of
friction when they try to comeback?

Speaker 1 (17:34):
What is it, in your opinion, that really makes
nonlinear journeys a little bituncommon and front upon yeah, I
think I would lean towards thefirst two pillars that you
mentioned the cultural aspectsand the fear of uncertainty.
I think cultural aspectsdefinitely play a big role, and

(17:55):
I'm speaking from my perspectivein the Netherlands, but I've
coached people in othergeographies.
France, I understand, is alsoquite conservative in terms of
the parts that you, that you cantake.
So I think it's it's a littlebit of you need to.
There are certain societieswhere you're more expected to

(18:17):
conform to the norm and I think,for example, the Anglo-Saxon
world, whether that's in the UKor in the US, having a little
bit of a different background isseen as positive and a sign of
creativity and being nimble, andthat's perceived really well.
So I think there's definitely acultural element to that.

(18:37):
And then the element ofuncertainty, and here I'm also
speaking from the perspective ofhiring managers.
I've spoken to clients,including, you know, also more
personally, my husband.
I think there is a fear from theperson who's hiring that indeed
the person won't be able toperform because they don't
necessarily see the experiencewith the skill sets that are

(19:00):
directly relevant to the role ontheir CV, the experience with
the skill sets that are directlyrelevant to the role on their
CV.
But there's also an element ofnot losing face to other people
in the organization, because ifyou take a chance on somebody
who's got a nonlinear backgroundand it doesn't work out, it's
much harder also to justify tothe managers above you why you

(19:21):
made that choice.
And those managers above youmight simply be very reluctant
to hire anybody who's gotmanagers above you why you made
that choice.
And those managers above youmight, you know, simply be very
reluctant to hire anybody who'sgot a different background.
Because then there's also thegenerational aspect of things.
People who are in very, verysenior positions, they are often
also a little bit older andthen again perhaps they're less

(19:41):
used to this idea of people nothaving one career path for life.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, it's a really good answer.
So, it's a mix of things,probably, but, yeah, I'm always
puzzled by this and I feel,though, I have to.
Yeah, I think it's going tochange over the years as younger
generations start getting moresenior roles and, you know, we
get people in managementpositions that are used to
seeing this kind of moredifferent trajectories.

(20:08):
I think it's going to getnormalized and even encouraged
in some organizations, and Ireally look forward for that,
because I think, yeah, peoplethat come from different
backgrounds and have, you know,lived different experiences and
studied different things andseen different things,

(20:29):
definitely always have, uh, adifferent perspective and views
to bring to the table, and I'm abig fan of that.
Um.
So I want to pivot to another,uh vertical of the conversation
now, um, which is woman.
In finance, it's always uh, it's.
You know I'll.
I'll be honest.
It's a topic I'm veryinterested in, like, um, I think
.
I think I need to be talkingabout this a lot more in my
podcast, but, as a man, I'malways, like, a little bit not

(20:52):
uncomfortable, but I feel like Idon't know if I have enough
credibility to talk about thistopic or not.
I'm very glad you're here toshare your perspective as a
woman and I really look forwardto have this conversation in
depth.
So my first question isobviously, you've worked as an
equity analyst in a very highpressure environment, which was

(21:15):
Goldman Sachs, but you alsocoached a woman in a lot of
these big IBs.
What patterns have you noticedin how women in finance navigate
power, navigate visibility andtheir ambition to progress in an
industry that has traditionallybeen very much male dominated?

(21:37):
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(21:58):
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Thanks so much for being hereand let's keep these great
finance conversations going.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Sure, I would say that it's a spectrum.
Like in everything, there'sdifferent people, and also
finance is not just IB, there'salso commercial banking, which
is perhaps slower paced.
And I think, given the spectrum, I would say still there are
three to four main patterns thatI've spotted.

(22:28):
There are some women who arehappy to just play the long game
and they just keep on doinggood work, hope that they will
be noticed.
They're not really trying totake the spotlight.
Sometimes they even shy awayfrom taking more managerial
roles.
It happens, but not just amongwomen.
Men as well can do that, andthis can be either because of

(22:52):
their own personality andambitions or their level of
agreeableness which is thattendency to people please or it
can stem from perhaps someanchored fear that they will be
perceived as arrogant and itwill be frowned upon.
So it can happen because ofthose two reasons as well.
It will be frowned upon.

(23:12):
So it can happen because ofthose two reasons as well.
Then there's another type ofpattern, which is women who are
very ambitious, who perhaps arenaturally more assertive and
confident, but who at times willcode switch because they will
be a little bit afraid to beperceived as arrogant, et cetera
.
So they will take a stepforward and then kind of take a
step back, so that you see too,and then you have the opposite
side of the spectrum.

(23:33):
You have women who are veryconfident, very assertive, who
really go for the top positions,and I think there it's.
I mean, it depends.
Sometimes women in theseenvironments can adopt an almost
hyper-masculine approach intheir leadership style, and

(23:56):
that's, I think, when it startsbeing frowned upon.
But there are women who leadfrom a very assertive, almost
aggressive standpoint, which isnot always conducive to having
very thriving genes, I must say.
So I think what you see less ofis the sweet spot of having

(24:17):
women who are very assertive andvery confident but who don't
seem to be trying to outman themen who are very anchored in who
they are, their own strengths,who lead with empathy and who
would do a great job withbringing their whole self to the
position.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Basically, Okay, I never thought about all those
different profiles.
That's really, reallyinsightful.
Thanks for that.
And have you seen, or do youbelieve there's cultural norms
that hold women back in thefinance industry at all?

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, I do think so.
I think, from an institutionalperspective, a lot has been
already in the Western developedworld, and obviously this
varies from geography togeography, and I'm speaking from
the perspective of whiteheterosexual women in a Western
developed country, of whiteheterosexual women in a Western

(25:14):
developed country.
So, with that caveat in mind, Ithink from an institutional
perspective, a lot has alreadybeen done in terms of DEI, in
terms of thinking aboutpromoting more women to
leadership positions, and that'sall very positive.
I think where there's still alot holding women back are the
cultural norms and specificallywhen it comes to women being
expected to be the primarycaregiver, especially when

(25:37):
children come along or in thecase of aging parents, and
that's when, I think, a lot ofvery bright, talented women take
a step back from their careersand that, ultimately, is going
to be detrimental in the longerrun for the level of income that
they can command and how farthey can progress.
Now I would like to just saythat it's not only women.

(25:59):
It's less common, but I've seenmen being the ones who take a
step back and are more hands-onat home, but it still is
overwhelmingly more common inheterosexual couples to have the
woman do that Now I can'tpretend to speak for queer
couples, but I'm sure that somekind of trade-off may also

(26:22):
happen in those settings,because the truth is, when you
have a career in finance andespecially feels more like IB or
private equity that are sofast-paced and so demanding has
careers, it helps a lot to havesomebody at home who holds the
fort and again, more often thannot that role is played by the
woman rather than the man.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, I mean, you touch upon an interesting
concept there, which is thisinvisible labor dynamic.
So you've raised kids, youbuild a business and you're
still in the game and but, yeah,many, I feel many women like
silently carry that, that load,um, that invisible labor dynamic

(27:05):
which is, as you say, like it's, it's very important, but
professionally speaking, it'smaybe less um less seen let's
put it that way just because youget out of the regular linear
workforce and you take care ofyour family and it's almost like
if you disappeared for sometime, which I believe is

(27:27):
completely unfair.
I believe it's completelyunfair.
What could be done to changethe way this dynamic is taking
place?

Speaker 1 (27:42):
So I think there's really two pillars to it, so to
speak.
I think one thing that isalready being done, in my humble
opinion, not enough, though, isreturnship programs.
Not enough, though, isreturnship programs.
I think returnship programs,where companies create some sort
of structured internship forenabling career returners to go
back to those sorts of careers,are super valuable, and I'm very

(28:03):
pleased to see big weightcompanies in the industry like
Goldman Sachs, jp Morgan,blackrock, amongst others, to
started to roll out this kind ofprograms in some of their
offices Unfortunately, not allof them so I think that's very
positive.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Is it a big thing?
Sorry, just one question.
These returnship programs, isit something that you feel is
growing at the moment, or is itstill something very niche?

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Well, it's definitely grown over the years and I
think with all the DEIinitiatives it has grown, but it
is still quite niche.
And I actually one of my formerclients her name is Angela
Fazzaro.
She founded an organizationcalled Every Mother Knows If
anyone wants to check it out,you can find more about it at

(28:53):
everymotherknowsorg and it's anorganization that helps bridge
that gap between companies andcareer returners and helps
companies create also theseprograms.
It helps candidates get intouch with these companies.
So there are organizationsusually not-for-profit
organizations who help with that.

(29:14):
But unfortunately I still findthat it's quite niche.
Also, the reception of theseprograms depends on geography.
Again, in places wherenonlinear paths are more
accepted and valued, there'smore acceptance for this kind of
programs.
But in continental Europe therecan be still a bit of a push

(29:35):
from these organizations to tryand get their message across.
But whenever they managed tocreate these returnship programs
, also in continental Europe,the feedback from the corporates
was extremely positive.
So I think it's also more aboutrolling more of these
initiatives and showing resultsand positive testimonials.

(29:55):
That will eventually give moreconfidence to managers that it's
not taking a big risk to getsomebody who's highly qualified,
extremely driven, verybrilliant, with emotional
intelligence that many youngerpeople don't have, with extreme
work ethic that sometimesyounger generations, I
understand, can lack a littlebit, and this can be

(30:15):
controversial, but there's somany articles these days talking
about that, so I think it'sabout getting that message
across and that's from thereturnship side of things.
And the other one is changingsocietal norms, which obviously
does not happen overnight.
But I think moving more to asociety that is more egalitarian

(30:37):
, where caregiving, namely forchildren, is divided more
equally between mother andfather, those things in the long
run are what are going toreally move the needle.
Making sure that childcare isaffordable and available and
high quality, that maternity andpaternity leaves are not
minuscule All those things Ithink over time will improve the

(31:00):
situation.
But again, perhaps we need tosee also a bit of a generational
turn for the mindset to changeoverall as well.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
And one depends obviously on corporates, the
other one more on governments.
But talking about thereturnships programs, I'm a bit
like fascinated by this becausefor me it's such a no brainer
Like I feel every corporateshould be doing this, exactly
for the reasons you are alludingto.
I mean, you know someone thatcomes back to the industry after

(31:33):
taking a long break, knowsexactly what he or she wants,
right, like it doesn't happen byaccident.
You've been through a lot ofstuff and if you decide to come
back, it's really because youare convinced that it's what you
want to do.
So you're going to be highlymotivated, you have experience.
You're probably also going tobe super thankful for the

(31:56):
opportunity of being able tocome back towards that employer
to trust you again, because Iunderstand that after some time
out, coming back is not easy andthere's obviously a little bit
of thankfulness for the trust.
I'm sure I mean I only seepositives.
I think everyone should bedoing this honestly.
So I hope we're going to seemore and more of these

(32:18):
return-sheet programs over thecoming years, especially for
women, of course, because, asyou were saying, they've been
the primary caregiver over theyears.
But yeah, I'll keep an eye alsoon on on your friend's website.
I think it's really really cool.
Um.
So I have another question.
Um, um, so you've been coaching, I guess a lot of of women also

(32:42):
, and told them to to stayauthentic.
Uh, but I was wondering how doyou, how do you coach them, or
what do you tell them, when theycould possibly sometimes be
penalized for traits that wouldactually be rewarded in male
counterparts, which I thinkdoesn't make any sense?

Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think it's an interesting question and it's
definitely a question that comesup very often.
However, I don't necessarilysubscribe that women are
inherently penalized for thosetraits, like being confident,
assertive, proactive.
What I have observed is thatthose types of traits bring

(33:22):
about criticism, not because ofthe traits themselves, but how
they are expressed, and I'mgoing to go back to something
that I alluded to earlier.
What I've seen is that when yousee women who almost seem like
they're in a hyper-masculinemode to try to outpace and
out-tough the men, that's whentraits like confidence and

(33:43):
assertiveness get criticized,and I think it has less to do
with the fact that it's a womanexpressing assertiveness and
more to do with the fact thatit's coming from a persona, it's
a performance, it's notsomething authentic, and what
happens when we are acting, whenwe are just performing, is our

(34:03):
attention is in ourselves, it'snot on the other person, it's
not in reading the room.
So emotional intelligence goesdown, and that's when that sort
of trait can come across asabrasive.
So I don't inherently subscribeto the idea that, oh yeah, a
woman who is confident andassertive is going to be
criticized.
So, in terms of coaching womenthrough this, my advice is to

(34:28):
get really clear on who you arein your strengths, stay grounded
in your own body and then, fromthat place, you can express
your views with clarity andassertiveness and with
confidence.
And when you're able to do thatbut that's also true for men,
for that matter when you're ableto really be in your body,

(34:49):
confident in yourself, beingauthentic, when you express
yourself confidently, it's notgoing to be criticized, it's
going to be respected and you'regoing to be listened to.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
So I think it has more to do with authenticity and
rather than trying to shy awayfrom some traits because of
cultural norms, Okay, that's agood one, and I have a question
related to less so with, maybe,authenticity, but more about
leadership, because we've seenmore women entering the finance

(35:21):
industry in this past few years,which is great, but I believe
there's still very few women atthe top, in the top management
positions definitely less womanthan men at the moment.
What's getting in the way ofthat final leap to leadership
for women?

Speaker 1 (35:41):
It's an interesting one and perhaps I would disagree
with you on that, but it canliterally be a geography thing
as well.
At least from where I'm sitting, I'm seeing many women being
promoted to really high-rankedpositions.
Perhaps there are certain areasof finance that tend to promote

(36:02):
women really high compared toothers.
Perhaps things more like middleoffice roles tend to be more
conducive to that.
In positions like risk or legal, for example, we're seeing more
and more women, but I thinkeven more in commercial front

(36:23):
office roles we're seeing moreand more women getting to those
levels.
Many people who I work with bynow they're CFOs, they are CIOs.
So I actually see more and morewomen getting there, and I
think when you point out thefact that there's still less
women in these positions thanmen, I think it is a factor of

(36:46):
the cultural norms, Because alsoto be able to get to those
positions, you need to have acertain number of years in the
industry, you need to have theexperience, the credibility etc.
And if many women took a hiatusin their career, they may
simply not be there at the sameage as men are, simply because

(37:09):
they missed that portion oftheir career in corporate.
So it has more to do again withthese cultural norms that need
to be changed for more women toreally stay fully engaged in
their careers over time and thatcompounds, so I would say it
has more to do with that.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, it might be biased, but my feeling I mean,
if I look at all the CEOs andCIOs of the big investment banks
and the big banks that I havein mind, it's pretty much only
men.
I don't have the stats, though,so I might be wrong here, but I
still have the feeling that, atleast in certain roles, it's

(37:51):
pretty much skewed towards male,and I hope over the upcoming
years that's going to change.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, I think I mean definitely, we've made a lot of
progress, at least in, again,western developed world, and I
think that's very positive.
What makes me a little bituncomfortable and that's where I
think thinking about theseissues, about women in finance,
can become quite tricky andcontroversial is I think to a
certain extent it's been theprogress that has been achieved

(38:17):
has been achieved through quotas, which obviously means that the
society as a whole needs tohave those support structures in
place when it comes tochildcare and parental leave and
things like that, to enablewomen to stay fully engaged over
time and get to those positionsbased on meritocracy.

(38:40):
So, yes, I think I don't knowthe stats exactly For sure there
are still more men in thosepositions than there are women.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
But I would like to see more women getting to those
roles based on meritocracy,rather than just quotas for the
sake of opting, than not havethem.
I guess because it's pushing,you know, more women to the
forefront and so on, and allow,at least on in terms of
percentages, let's put it thatway for the playing ground to

(39:24):
get leveled up faster.
So that's great.
But at the same time, yes,sometimes quotas get criticized,
right, because people are like,oh yeah, she only got promoted
because they had to promote awoman to that position, or
something like that, whichdefeats their purpose.
And, and a hundred percent, Imean the, the.
The ideal world would be onewhere it's just based on

(39:44):
meritocracy.
It doesn't really matter yourif you're a male, female, your
color, your age, nothing I mean,just you know.
Or if you're male, female, yourcolor, your age, nothing I mean
, just who you are and what youdeliver, basically, and what you
bring to the table.
I hope we get there at somepoint.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
But, yeah, quotas, I understand it's a touchy one,
yeah, can I just say on thatpersonally, and that's my view,
I am very much pro-meritocracyand for me, discrimination is
discrimination, whether it'snegative discrimination or
positive discrimination.
So I'm not a huge fan of quotasand, again, I think what we
would need more instead ofhaving quotas is the

(40:23):
open-mindedness from corporatesto engage with returnship
programs to perhaps bring womenwho are still of this generation
where perhaps we didn't havegreat maternity leaves and we
put our careers on the backburner, enabling us to return
and value our contributions,rather than just deciding okay,

(40:44):
we need to hire these many womento show to the board that we
have 50% of women in leadershippositions.
But that's my view.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, no, and it's an excellent point.
Honestly, it's so tricky, yeah,because what about I mean
bouncing on that example ifthose many women that were hired
are actually pretty good too, Imean that's great, you know.
So it's always like the devilis in the details.
It depends on each situation.

(41:14):
But again, like, yeah, I feelwe're making progress.
We're not there yet, but atleast we're going in the right
direction.
We just need to acceleratethings a little bit more.
Probably, and in a few years,hopefully, we will have closed
that invisible gap in some way,or that visible gap actually.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
And I actually do wonder if AI is going to
contribute a little bit to that,because with the emergence of
AI people are going to be forcedto re-skill and pivot.
So, going back to the idea oflinear versus nonlinear parts,
if you normalize nonlinear partsthen hopefully there is also
more openness to hiring peoplewho are career returners.
So hopefully it will move inthe right direction.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
That's cool.
Actually, it won't be maleversus woman, it will be robots
versus humans, you know.
And we'll be like oh my God.
That's where the real issue is.
Now we're going to have to putquotas for humans.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
That's the thing in a few years Like oh my.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
God, they're just hiring robots.
Exactly we need to ensure like5% of the workforce is human.
Absolutely Can you imagine youcould do a TV show about that.
Let's pitch Netflix.
I think we're into somethingthere.
Yeah perhaps so.
You've coached a lot of women.

(42:33):
You've seen a lot of successfulwomen up very, very close
during your coaching sessions.
What's something most peopledon't realize about the mindset
that these very, very successfulwomen in finance have?
Hey there, quick ad break.
Do you work in the financeindustry and have a genuinely

(42:54):
interesting story to share?
I'm always on the hunt forgreat guests who bring raw,
unfiltered insights to the table.
Or maybe you know someone witha story worth telling?
Please put us in touch.
You can reach out to medirectly via LinkedIn.
I'd love to hear from you.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
That is a very good question.
I think one thing that tends tobe more prevalent among women
than men is imposter syndromeand this idea that, oh, they're
going to find out that actuallyI'm not that good, or what if I
don't really measure up and Ineed to keep face, and on top of
it I'm a woman and I might becriticized, et cetera.

(43:39):
So I think there's way morefear of not measuring up than I
see among men, and perhaps itwould be good to have that in
mind whenever you work withwomen, that perhaps a certain

(44:00):
level of reassurance andcelebrating their achievements
is needed.
Again, I think a lot has beendone already, especially in
large corporates, with women'snetworks and events.
I think that has become moremainstream, but I think there is
a distinction, that I would say, between men and women.
Of course men can also feelthat they have a bit of imposter

(44:23):
syndrome, but it's moreprevalent among women.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
So maybe to wrap up this part of the conversation
about women which, by the way,took a lot more than I thought,
but it's very fascinating, so wemight have to do other episodes
for the rest of all the thingsthat I was planning to talk
about with you.
But from your perspective, then, what does meaningful progress
for women in finance look like?

(44:49):
Is it more of those returnshipprograms that you were alluding
to, or something else?

Speaker 1 (44:55):
I think it's actually something that we already
touched upon, which is thatmeaningful progress would be not
having to talk about women infinance, but people in finance,
and reaching a point where thesystem is meritocratic and
egalitarian and your genderbecomes not the most interesting
thing about your career anymore.
So I would say that would bethe biggest progress, but

(45:18):
obviously it entails societalnorms changing, so it's not
going to be an overnight thing.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Okay.
Well, thank you for all thoseperspectives on finance and
women.
I suggest now we pivot toanother part of the conversation
which I had penciled in, whichis biases in decision-making.
So you have a cool blog series,I find, which mixes finance

(45:47):
with coaching, even with alittle bit of dating, and I
think it's pretty brilliant.
So what inspired you to connectthe dots between love and money
?

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Sure.
So actually that connectionhappened quite organically.
So when I first launched mycoaching practice, I was
focusing on high performers andI was helping them with
performance, with career pivotsometimes, with managing stress
and ultimately not burning out.
I started shifting over theyears towards more the executive

(46:19):
health coaching side of things,because I realized that your
health and wellness reallyunderpins your ability to
perform.
But then something veryinteresting started happening,
which is people would often hireme to talk about their career
and stress management, et cetera, and then they won't end up
talking about their dating life,their marriage, their unmet

(46:41):
needs, and we ended up doingquite a bit of more like
relationship coaching in a way,and it's actually not that
surprising If you think aboutthe Harvard study of adult
development, which has beenrunning for decades on.
It shows that the greatestpredictor of your happiness and
longevity is actually thequality of your relationships.

(47:02):
So I started digging more intothat and then, a few months ago
actually, I was having a veryfascinating conversation with a
very senior manager in theinvestment management industry
and he was telling me about thechallenges of managing very
skilled portfolio managers whoare still falling prey to

(47:24):
behavioral biases.
So I started doing some digginginto behavioral finance and
went down that rabbit hole.
And the more I read, the more Irealized that there were so
many parallels between how webehave in investing and how we
behave in our romanticrelationships.
And that's where the blogseries came from, because at the
end of the day, we are humansand oftentimes how we do one

(47:47):
thing is how we do everything.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
So that's how I connected the dots between money
and dating, I guess and onethat I liked is that in both
relationships and investing alot of times, we hold on to bad
decisions for too long.
Either we hold a stock for toolong or we're stuck in a toxic
relationship for too long.
What makes it so hard to walkaway, whether from a bad

(48:10):
investment or a relationship?

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, I think there are two elements to it.
One is the sunk cost fallacy.
We have a very strong aversionto loss so we don't really want
to admit that.
You know it was a failure.
It's time to leave and we keepon investing more, whether it's

(48:35):
in the stock or whether it's ina relationship, because we still
expect it to turn around and wehope for that.
But the other aspect to it isliterally brain chemistry,
because especially when you havevery volatile stocks or very
volatile relationships likesituationships which, for those
who are not looking at thedating world, people are calling

(48:56):
situationships these situationspeople get into where there's
intimacy but they don't labelwhat sort of relationship they
have and they break up, they getback together.
So it's very complicated andwhen you have these peaks and
troughs, whether it's ininvesting or whether in your
personal relationships, dopaminestarts playing a big role.
And dopamine is that hormone inyour brain that is about

(49:18):
wanting and the reward system.
So you get a hit of dopaminewhen things are going well and
then, when things go wrong,dopamine crashes and then you're
expecting another dose ofdopamine to come up.
So you're constantly in thatexpectation mode.
And that's exactly what happenswith gambling when you have
like a variable reward systemthat you don't know when the

(49:42):
next positive hit is going tocome.
It keeps you addicted in thegame and that's why it's so hard
to walk away, even for verysmart data driven people.
Because at the end of the day,we're humans and whether we're
talking about the biases orwe're talking about the brain
chemistry, if we fall prey tothat, it doesn't mean that we're
dumb.

(50:02):
Actually, these things existbecause of evolution.
Even the biases that we displayemotional biases, cognitive
biases they developed becauseover years of evolution,
thousands of years of evolutionit paid off to have mental
shortcuts to make decisions.
Imagine that you were anendertal and you see you kind of

(50:25):
notice some rustling in thebushes.
It's better for you to assumethat it's a threat and to react
immediately rather than pauseand analyze whether that might
be a predator.
So we created these heuristics,these rules of thumb, to make
decisions on the fly.
Created these heuristics, theserules of thumb, to make
decisions on the fly, but yes,in a very complex, dynamic

(50:46):
environment that is quiteabstract, like finance or even
relationships, falling prey tothese biases or just letting our
brain chemistry rule the showmight not be the best thing to
do.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah, 100%.
And another thing that stoodout from your series was this
thing called blind spot bias,which is the idea that we can
see other people's flaws but weare a little bit less aware of
our own.
So how do you confront people,Sorry, how do you help people
confront their own blind spotswithout triggering all sorts of

(51:23):
negative reactions?

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, it's a tricky one, and I think it actually.
People need to be coachable andnot everybody is, for that
matter.
People need to have a certaindegree of growth mindset, which
contrasts with fixed mindset.
The fixed mindset is this ideathat I am the way I am and I'm
not going to change and evolve.
The growth mindset is thisopenness to growing and

(51:47):
developing.
So I think it needs to besomeone who's got that mindset
and then sometimes getting athird party involved, like a
coach, can be helpful Somebodywho's supposed to be neutral,
who's not your boss, that youwill feel threatened if they're
pointing out your blind spotsand actually I recently was
introduced to a company calledEssentia Analytics.

(52:08):
They do exactly that.
So what they do is they workwith PMs and they help track
their behavior and correlatethat with their performance.
Is there a winning streakversus a losing streak?
How their emotions were at thattime, and then, based on those
correlations, they see okay, howdo these types of emotions or

(52:30):
these types of you know streaksin your performance affect your
behaviors?
Are you trading more often?
Are you making bigger trades?
And they point that out topeople and just the fact of
giving them an analysis of okay,these are the patterns that
we've identified for you.
Reportedly, it already helpsthem a lot in checking in with

(52:50):
themselves and, again, becauseit's an external party, it feels
less confrontational to getthat sort of feedback.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
Yeah, I think a lot of times, just being aware of
your bias is already half of thesolution.
Probably not for all of thebiases, but in a lot of cases
it's just yeah, because we sooften tend to, yeah, to be
biased without even noticingthat.

(53:18):
Yeah, if someone comes out andmakes us realize what we're
doing, it's already a big stepforward.
And you also think, sorry.
You also explained in yourseries that one of the most
underrated biases is the curseof knowledge, so can you maybe
tell us more about it, what itis, and also, how does that bias

(53:41):
affect the way we communicatewith teams and with clients and
so on?

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Sure, so the curse of knowledge is really when you
think that other people knowwhat you do, what you know, and
you just assume that everybodyknows what you're talking about
and has the same insights thatyou have.
So it affects how youcommunicate with people in as
much as you may be talking topeople but not really connecting

(54:04):
with people on the level thatthey are and the type of
knowledge and expertise thatthey have.
So I think there was actuallyone of your podcast guests who
touched on that at some point,somebody who worked, I think,
for the Californiaia state, andhe was talking about how, the
fact that when you um, whenyou're trying to explain to

(54:26):
pensioners, like what investmentdecisions you're making, you
need to use quite simplelanguage no jargon, because it
doesn't mean that these peopleare simpletons, it means that
their expertise lies somewhereelse.
So I think when you have thatcurse of knowledge is you need
to think about who your audienceis and adapt the level of

(54:47):
content and your language to whoyour audience actually is,
which in a way, is a bit whatmarketers do.
When you're a marketer, youreally try to first really
understand who your audience is,sometimes even create an ideal
client avatar and then you craftyour message for that
particular avatar.

(55:07):
And I think oftentimes thatgets a little bit lost in the
corporate world, that peopledon't necessarily get very
attuned to who they're talkingto.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Yeah, so you were talking about the episode with
Wiley Tollett, the CIO ofFranklin Templeton Investment
Solutions, when he was workingfor CalPERS, the pension fund of
the state of California.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Yeah, wow, I mean, I love thistopic.
Honestly, I'm a big fan ofbehavioral finance and maybe
coming back to this awareness ofyour biases concept, once
someone knows their bias, howcan they actually change their

(55:53):
behavior?
Is being aware enough, or doyou think there's like some
steps that we can follow inorder to correct it faster or
more efficiently?

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Well, obviously, the first step is awareness.
So that's the starting point isto analyze your patterns, and
keeping a journal, as boring asthat may be, helps a lot in that
.
Whether you do it by yourselfor with a coach, it's up to you.
But figure out exactly whatyour patterns are.
Then what you can do is makeyourself a little cheat sheet

(56:26):
where you literally keep thatnext to your desk.
And okay, when I'm feeling thisemotion or when this sort of
pattern is happening in myperformance, I tend to do this
behavior and next time you'refeeling the same thing.
You just glance at your list andyou think to yourself, you
pause Okay, I was about to goand do this trade, for example.
Am I doing that because it'sthe rational thing to do, or am
I doing that because it's mybias, and just pause.

(56:49):
And that's where the goal is isin the pause.
And then, obviously, supportand accountability help a lot.
So, for example, when I wasworking at Goldman Sachs, any
investment recommendation we had, we had to run it through the
Investment Research Committee itwas called the IRC, which is
basically you would go there andpitch your recommendation to

(57:10):
the directors of research andthey would drill you.
And it wasn't personal,sometimes it wasn't pleasant,
but it was really to stress testyour thinking, but it was
really to stress test yourthinking.
So if you can have those sortsof checkpoints in your teams,
whether it's with the verysenior managers or literally
with your peers, just tochallenge your thinking, that's
very helpful.

(57:30):
So it's also about findingaccountability among the people
you work with.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Yeah, and it takes effort, right, Like it's not
easy to do this exercise, to putyourself out there and really
try to challenge yourself, butdefinitely an exercise worth
doing.
And I also find what you'resaying about journaling so
interesting.
I feel journaling is comingback in fashion like big time,
no matter where you look at.
There's so many you knowdifferent use cases of it, Like

(57:59):
I play golf, for example, andright now I just subscribed to a
mental game program andbasically it's all about
journaling.
I haven't started yet, but theysend me a journal and
apparently it helps too.
There's also this morningreflections thing, which is huge
, where people are journaling inevery morning what they want to

(58:20):
accomplish during the day.
Where people are journaling inevery morning what they want to
accomplish during the day.
What is it about journalingthat makes it so effective, in
your opinion?

Speaker 1 (58:27):
I think and I'm a big fan of writing I think when
you're writing you are forced toorganize your ideas and your
thoughts in a way that if youjust have fleeting ideas in your
head doesn't get so anchored.
So I think that's where themagic is.
Now there's research that showsthat actually if you handwrite
it's way more powerful thantyping.
So perhaps you might want toexperiment with that.

(58:49):
But I do realize that it can bequite time consuming and if
you're on the go you might notwant to sit down every morning
for 10 minutes journaling onyour thoughts etc.
So sometimes, especially whenyou're on the go and you're just
noticing these patterns, evenjust literally picking up your
phone and jotting down somenotes just to keep track is

(59:10):
already very helpful, whetheryou do it through handwriting or
not.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Yeah, and I feel the act of handwriting, instead of
talking or thinking about it,it's a lot more efficient,
honestly, because a lot of timeswe're lazy about it, but yet
the act of sitting down andputting it on paper makes it
stay more ingrained in yourbrain.
Elsa, we've been talking foraround an hour.

(59:36):
It's been amazing, I'll behonest.
We haven't even gone through50% of the questions I had
prepared.
We had another vertical here,which was wellness and stress
management.
We had another one which wascoaching and emotional
intelligence.
So I'm going to ask you, liveon the episode, if you would be
open at some point in a coupleof months to come back and maybe

(59:59):
cover those with us, because Ifeel, I mean, we still have many
, many things to talk about here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Sure, absolutely.
I'm very passionate aboutwellness.
Again, I come from a backgroundin biological engineering and I
was always very interested inbiology and how that impacts us
and our performance.
So very keen to talk about that.
I probably think another hourand a half talking about that,
yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
I don't want to rush it, I don't want to ask you just
two questions and then move on,because I feel there's a lot we
can talk about there.
So we'll put the conversationon pause.
I'll ask you a couple ofwrap-up questions here and then
we'll do a new episode, if youhave time, of course, in a
couple of months.
But, yeah, maybe to wrap upthis first part then of the pod,

(01:00:45):
I always like to ask my guests,if you look back, what's one
piece of advice that you wishsomeone had whispered in your
ear at the start of your financecareer?

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
I think it would be stay the course and in a way it
echoes that book by SherylSandberg Lean In.
I think I was overly optimisticthat I could step away a little
bit from the front lines, likeyou framed it at the beginning,

(01:01:25):
and then go back, and I didn'tappreciate the resistance that I
might face in the industryafter a number of years, and I
know for a fact that thishappens to many women.
I've heard of regretful tonesfrom more than a handful, so I

(01:01:48):
think that would be.
That is, to just stay calm andcarry on and somehow try to make
it work and juggle it all, butstay the course and don't step
back.
but stay the course and don'tstep back.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
That's a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
And trust trust the process, trust the journey yeah
trust the journey and, I guess,also probably ask for help more
because, especially in finance,many of us are age type
personalities and we think wecan do it all and perhaps we
don't like asking for help more.
But especially when it comes toagain managing a full life with

(01:02:29):
family and a career, I thinkyou are bound to ask for help.
Otherwise something's got togive, and either you get that
help from a partner parents paidhelp if you can afford it.
It's still important to thinkthat you can't do it all all the

(01:02:50):
time and have it all at thesame time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah, that's a good one.
And talking about help, I guessa lot of people listening to
this might be quietlyquestioning where they're going,
the stage of their careerthey're at, why they're doing it
, how they're doing it.
So what would you say tosomeone who's silently feeling
stuck or even burning out rightnow?

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Yeah, I think that's where reflection is really
valuable.
I think that's where reflectionis really valuable, and it
doesn't mean that you need tostep away and take a sabbatical
and go to business school like Idid, but it means that perhaps
you need to slow down to againknow when it's time to take a
break.
Prioritize your sleep, becauseI think a lot of times when we

(01:03:38):
are feeling really frazzled andoverwhelmed and feeling lost and
burned out, to be honest, sleepis the basis and actually, if
you want to do an episode atanother point, I can walk you
through a framework that I use,which I call RENEW, and the R in
RENEW stands for rest.
So I would say the first thingis that person needs to
prioritize recovery and thenprobably the fog will clear,

(01:04:01):
they will start thinking moreclearly and then I would
encourage them to try to slowdown but not step out, which is
where I think I made a mistake.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Wow, okay, I mean now you're building up.
I already want to record thatepisode, that's going to be
amazing Teaser for part two guys.
So, elsa, this has beenabsolutely amazing.
I love this conversation.
Thank you so much for your time.
I think you are a brilliantwoman.
I'm very, very excited forwhat's ahead for you.

(01:04:33):
I have no doubt that you'regoing to achieve all your
objectives this year and in notime you're going to be achieve
all your objectives this yearand in no time you're going to
be in the job of your dreamswithin the finance industry.
Count on me to help you in anyway or form to get there.
And yeah, thank you once againfor coming to the show.
I hope our listeners found itas useful as I did.

(01:04:54):
I took plenty of notes and I'mexcited to see you soon for the
next one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Thank you so much for having me, ignacio.
I really appreciate it, andperhaps I would just add one
thing.
I know that a lot of people inyour audience are actually men,
and I would just like to pointthe following out One of the
reasons I'm so motivated togoing back is to set an example
for my daughters.
There's lots of research thatshows that girls who are raised

(01:05:20):
by stay-at-home moms tend to notdo as well as women who are
raised by working mothers.
So if you're a partner and youhave a wife who perhaps wants to
get back to her ambitious goals, if you could be supportive of
that, that would be amazing,because it's not just for the
sake of your partner, but alsofor the sake of your kids, if
you have daughters.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Wow, that's a good one.
So now I have to ask you I mean, I didn't understand that right
.
So there's research that showsthat kids that stay with their
parents or at home tend toperform less well when they
enter the professional laborforce.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
It's specific to girls Okay.
That girls who were raised bystay-at-home mothers myself
included tend to not reach thosehigh leadership positions as
often as women who were raisedby working mothers.
And it does make sense becausewe do tend to mimic a little bit

(01:06:21):
what we see in our families oforigin.
So, I find this particularlyrelevant.
Also, it has a discussion interms of women in finance is
also being role models for thegenerations to come.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Wow, oh my God, I would have never thought about
that.
Because, yeah, maybe, yeah,there's that part of mimicking,
but at the other side, I wouldassume maybe they have maybe
more self-esteem, because beingsurrounded by your parents makes
you probably feel better aboutyourself, and maybe higher
emotional intelligence and so on.
So I'd be curious to.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
You're getting me started on something else.
We're going to go for anotherhalf an hour Because very often,
actually high achievers they'renot necessarily the people with
the highest self-esteem.
You hear many very, verysuccessful people who,
especially these days wherepeople become a bit more
vulnerable online, they do talkabout their insecurities because
oftentimes we push ourselves tobe really high achievers

(01:07:18):
because we don't feel goodenough.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
So there's, that element as well.
We'll start the next episodetalking about that and then we
will move on to the next part ofthe conversation.
Stay tuned, because there'sgoing to be a lot coming about
wellness, stress management,linking biology in there, and
then, of course, a little bitmore on emotional intelligence
from a coaching perspective.
Elsa, it's been absolutelyamazing.
Thank you so much, linkingbiology in there.
And then, of course, a littlebit more on emotional
intelligence from a coachingperspective.
Elsa, it's been absolutelyamazing.

(01:07:44):
Thank you so much, and have awonderful week.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Thank you, you too.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
The Blonde Dollar is written, produced, hosted and
edited by me, ignacio Ramirez.
Everything you hear concept,script, sound design and
production comes straight frommy desk and, occasionally, my
kitchen table.
Thank you so much for listeningand join me in the next episode
of the Blunt Dollar for moreraw, honest finance
conversations.
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