3. Unlock Your Creative Potential (Spoiler: It's a Critical Skill at Work)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alexis (00:05):
Hey, I'm Alexis Booth and welcome to the Breakout
Booth.
I was a senior manager atGoogle.
I'm a wife and a mother, and Ilearned the hard way If you're
not fired up, you're on hold.
I believe success is closerthan you think.
There's a set of skills andhabits you can grow to unlock

(00:26):
unbelievable outcomes.
In this podcast, we'll explorethem through real talk and bold
conversation, because I want tohelp you break out.
Hey, welcome to the BreakoutBooth.
I'm Alexis Booth and we are infor an interesting conversation.

(00:47):
Today we're going to be digginginto the topic of creativity,
which is a superpower that Ibelieve you and everyone around
you already has inside you rightnow.
I also think it's something youcan get better at with practice
.
But most people I know, don'tthink of it as an attribute they
possess, let alone somethingthat could be cultivated or

(01:10):
developed.
When I hear people talk aboutcreativity, it's usually in the
context of "oh, have you metSarah?
She's so creative.
It's like this specialcharacteristic--- almost like a
personality trait, that's eitherpresent in a person or it's not
there at all.
And not only do I think it'swrong, I think it's such a loss

(01:31):
for you, for us and for theworld at large, to think that
way, because creativity containsand embodies the very spark of
novel ideas and innovation, andbecause creativity can provide
you access to deep personalfulfillment.
So, if you want to change theworld, or maybe you've got a job

(01:54):
in marketing, or you're asoftware engineer, you're a
clinical researcher or a projectmanager, whatever it is you do
for work, have you ever beentold to think outside the box?
That is literally your managerasking you to get creative.
That's right.
Even if you don't think aboutcreativity in the context of

(02:16):
your job, it's actually anessential element of so many
jobs.
Not every one, but a lot ofthem.
So creativity is actuallysomething you're probably
already using on the regular,and there are, in fact, proven
ways to get better at it.
If you still don't believe methat creativity is an important

(02:37):
characteristic in the workplace,I'll share a little story from
my past that I hope will helpyou rethink things a bit.
When I applied to Google backin 2009, I'd highlighted my
album on my resume in thepersonal interest section and it
ultimately became part of thepacket that was reviewed by
hiring committees, which is thepacket's essentially a pile of

(02:58):
all the documents about anycandidate.
It gets reviewed by leaders andlongstanding employees.
It's part of the core hiringprocess there and because it was
a long time ago when Google wasstill fairly small, Larry and
Sergey were still reviewingevery single candidate packet
for all the new potential hiresas the last step in the process.

(03:19):
So Larry Page was actually thevery last reviewer of my hiring
packet and he apparently said tothe person helping him review
all these packets.
"Wow, she's super Googley!"It was a statement that was
literally a reaction to thehighlight of my creation of this
music album.

(03:39):
While I can't tell you hisexact thoughts at the time, I
imagine what he saw in my packetwent beyond any technical or
business skills that anyonewould need to have gotten to
that point, but rather Idemonstrated the kind of
intangible skills and habitsthat any startup or fast moving
company is looking for inpotential employees.

(04:01):
It involves developing originalideas, so taking the mere spark
of an idea all the way to afinished product and having an
internally driven motivation andbias for action to create
something that no one else hadasked me to do.
So I deposit here as evidencetoday creativity is part of the

(04:23):
magic you bring with you in yourjob and in your life every day,
and it's something worthgrowing.
Also, Larry Page thinks I'msuper Googley, or I mean he did
at some point in time.
It's pretty cool.
Now, beyond talking about thepractical applications of
creativity and, you know,thinking about how beneficial it

(04:44):
can be to your job, I also wantto highlight an even bigger
idea, which is that creativitycan give you access to something
even greater than adding valuein a work context.
Creativity lies at the heart ofexperiencing some of the purest
moments of joy and satisfactionthat there are to feel in life.

(05:06):
There's something so deeplyfulfilling in witnessing your
brain and your body compose anew idea all by itself, whether
it's doodling on the back of anenvelope, bringing a painting to
life on canvas, screaming atthe top of your lungs when
you're all alone in your car andletting pure anger or heavy

(05:29):
sadness take the form of wordsor sounds that never existed
before in that particular way.
Or maybe it's letting go whileyou're sitting in front of an
instrument like a piano, a cello, a guitar and playing the notes
you've played tens, if nothundreds, of times before, but
with a depth of expression and aphrasing that the world has

(05:52):
never heard.
Or if you're an athlete,whether you practice taekwondo
or yoga, maybe your love issoccer or football.
There are moments where a pose,a play, a formation somehow
comes to life in a way thattranscends any plan or
expectation.
These are all moments that canbecome truly spiritual

(06:16):
experiences, where you let go ofeverything and simply let
something else take over.
All the time you've spentpracticing and preparing it
suddenly comes together in aninspired moment of delight and
creates an experience that canleave you breathless.
But as important as creativitymay be in making leaps in your
job, launching a new startup, orcultivating a greater sense of

(06:36):
personal fulfillment, there'smounting research that we are up
against an increasing number ofbarriers that can stifle or
even prevent creative thoughtall together.
One I struggle with is aconstant state of interruption.

(06:58):
Creativity inherently requiresdeep thought.
In order to come up with anidea you'd never had before.
You need to have a clear mindand have time and space to let
random ideas come up, almost asif out of thin air.
But if you're being pinged byco-workers non-stop and you

(07:19):
aren't preventing the mentalassault that comes from the
endless stream of appnotifications and texts that
your phone is dying to tell youabout, you're holding yourself
back from letting the creativeprocess take you away on a
stream of novel thoughts and youmay be blocking your next big

(07:39):
idea from ever taking shape.
And as a parent of young kids, Ican also attest to the fact
that devices are not the onlythings that can lead to
interruption.
Sometimes one of the mostimportant things you can do if
you're a parent is hire a sitteror take a day off of work so
you can have time and space allto yourself and you can get into

(08:02):
a flow state and flex yourcreative muscles to yourself.
And you can get into a flowstate and flex your creative
muscles.
Another bit of research I findespecially fascinating.
There is a recent study thatlooked at people who had
especially high scores on thesmartphone addiction scale,
known as SAS.
This is a standardizedquestionnaire that evaluates if
you have a phone addiction andthe magnitude of it.

(08:23):
Anyway, the study comparedperformance on a creative task
between people who had high andlow scores on this SAS.
And not only did the folks whoself-reported signs of device
addiction come up with lesscreative solutions to the task,
they did neuroimaging thatshowed these individuals had

(08:47):
less activity in parts of theirbrains that were lighting up
like fireworks in the otherparticipants' heads.
It reminds me of something Iremember a senior leader talking
about like 10 years ago.
He'd seen some research thattaking a different way into work
every day can help develop graymatter in the brain.

(09:08):
Now gray matter is somethingthat is linked to intelligence,
and it basically contains thecells that are responsible for
sending and receiving signalsthroughout your nervous system.
So he started doing this everyday.
He would take random roads intowork and he described it as a
practice that helped him feelmore agile every day at work.

(09:31):
One of the things I know I'vedone recently is I've stopped
using maps when I'm driving inmy car and traveling through
areas that I'm relativelyfamiliar with.
Having turn-by-turn directionsthat are leading me to my
destination doesn't only takeaway from the freeing
opportunity of solving a simplebut enjoyable problem.

(09:52):
You know, thinking about whatpath I want to take and having
to make real-time decisions,avoiding road closures or
driving around backed up traffic.
It also puts me right in themiddle of an interruptive state,
which can rob me from noticingthe beauty of the world around
me, whether it's the leaveschanging in the fall or ice

(10:13):
crystals reflecting the sun'srays.
After a snowstorm, how oftenare you listening to a song and
suddenly you're being told totake a turn, or you're having a
conversation and it getsinterrupted by one of those.
By the way, when I dug intorecommendations around how to
develop more gray matter in thebrain, the primary
recommendation was to meditatedaily, basically letting your

(10:35):
brain have quiet time whererandom thoughts can flutter by.
I see that as a passiveapproach to letting creativity
flourish.
I also think there are moreactive ways to promote it, and
those are the things we're goingto be talking about today.
Now, the dictionary definescreativity as the use of
imagination or original ideas,especially in the production of

(10:59):
an artistic work.
Now, I do agree that creativityand art are inherently
intertwined.
Art is literally amanifestation of creative
thought where it's put to paper,or music, or dance, you know,
whatever the artistic form is.
But I think the definition isincomplete and it's deceptive

(11:20):
and limiting.
I actually came across anotherdefinition as I was researching
for this episode that's closerto what I'm actually exploring
here.
It's called creative cognitionand it's basically the
combination of mental processesthat support the ability to
generate novel ideas.
There's a whole field dedicatedto exploring it.

(11:42):
In a way, creativity actuallyexists in every single moment of
your life.
From the way you move abubbling pat of butter around a

hot pan to make morning eggs (11:52):
Do you poke it with a knife
forward and backward in a circle?
Do you swirl the pan?
Or what about how you listen toand respond to every single
person you come into contactwith.
It's also in the way you endyour day, with lucid and,
eventually, restful dreams atnight, bridging connections

(12:14):
between all the beautifulthoughts racing through your
brain and at its core.
The most important thing you cando to foster creativity is
simply embrace being present inthe moment and making room for
yourself to explore your ownideas, rather than sit in a

(12:36):
reactive state waiting forsomeone else to ask you for
something, or zombying out anddoom scrolling on your phone or
bed rotting and binging on aweekend full of Netflix.
Because, while I do acknowledgethere are times when doing those
things can be restorative and Ilove melting into my couch and

(12:57):
devouring a full season ofBridgerton in one sitting,
spending every moment you arenot at work or asleep in that
state is a loss for you and foreveryone around you.
Because if creativity is aboutimagination and creating new
ideas, there is no other brainjust like yours and no other

(13:21):
person who has experienced thethings you have in your life,
which means that every idea youhave is kind of unique, and that
is something to be celebrated.
So, rather than let yourself getlost in the binary idea that
either you are a creative personor you're not, I want to ground
today's episode in the ideathat you are inherently a

(13:44):
creative person simply becauseyou're human and you have a
special, unique brain and set ofexperiences, and those are the
foundational elements ofcreativity.
And to take it just a bitfurther, not only does
creativity already exist insideyou, you can cultivate it and

(14:06):
tap into it even further,meaning you can expand your
ability to imagine differentfutures, different things or
experiences you can create, andyou can increase your ability to
come up with new and novelideas and develop them even
further.
And with that, I welcome you tojoin me and have a conversation

(14:28):
with a very special guest ofmine, who is not only a friend.
He is an expert in creativity.
He's been a working artist forover 20 years and he also
happens to be the man behind mymic, as in he's the producer of
this podcast.
Welcome, Pablo Signori.

Pablo (14:47):
What's up?
Thanks for having me.

Alexis (14:50):
Yeah, thanks for being here! How are you doing today?
What'd you have for lunch?

Pablo (14:54):
I had leftover Coda di Volpe, which is a restaurant
here on Southport that I likevery much.
They make very good pizzas.

Alexis (15:04):
I thought you were naming a meal.
I was like, what is this?

Pablo (15:08):
No, no, no, it's an Italian restaurant, but they
make great pizza and they havethe official stamp that comes
from the city of Napoli.
That signifies you make legit,truly authentic Neapolitan pizza
.

Alexis (15:20):
Ooh, I know Spocanopoli.

Pablo (15:22):
Yes, that's also-.

Alexis (15:23):
That's one I've gone to.

Pablo (15:25):
Good.

Alexis (15:25):
Yeah, I need to go back there sometime.
Ooh, I'm jealous now.

Pablo (15:29):
It's a classic.
Those are kind of my two go-tosright there.
We've covered pizza, now what?

Alexis (15:36):
Well, before we really dig into this episode, I did
want to share a bit morebackground on you.
I've known you for a long timeand in fact my husband knows you
from even longer.
You were very good friends backin high school and actually
college as well.

Pablo (15:52):
Yeah, he's always been like a significant part of my
life, through every phase.

Alexis (15:56):
Yeah, very cool.
Well, and you were at ourwedding, you were retching.

Pablo (16:02):
Yes, I had the flu.
It wasn't that I drank too much.
I had the flu when I got there.

Alexis (16:06):
I sadly was not at yours .
I had to travel for work.
I don't remember what it was.
I think there was internationaltravel that was going on.
But I did get like 100 picturesfrom Geoff that weekend.

Pablo (16:17):
Yes, we had a good time.
It was a good time.

Alexis (16:19):
Yeah, we've played plenty of dice.
What was the bar that we usedto go to?

Pablo (16:23):
I think it was Guthrie's, wasn't it?
Yes, we couldn't remember whatthe name of it was yeah.
Now I live like two doors downfrom that place and I never go.

Alexis (16:31):
Is it still open?

Pablo (16:32):
Yeah, it reopened.
It closed during the pandemicand then this guy Matt bought it
and now they reopened it.

Alexis (16:47):
Anyway so we actually go pretty far back and we
reconnected last year this ideabecause I was playing around
with this idea, this podcast,although that wasn't why I
reached out to you.
I was actually reaching out toyou because I wanted help on the
intro, but it turns out youactually are a podcaster.
You want to talk about yourpodcast?

Pablo (17:01):
Sure.
So kind of just a little sidething.
I am obsessed with fly fishing.
During the pandemic I realizedthat within the fly fishing
space there's just so muchinformation coming at you that
it's very hard to digest as anew angler, and so I was like I
need to do something about this,because I've only been fly

(17:21):
fishing for seven years, so likecoming into something brand new
, like a hobby.
As an adult, you know how youlearn.
It's like it's much more dialed, and I realized after I'd done
a lot of research that likeeverything's like Swiss cheese,
like there's no chronologicalorder.
So my attempt to fix the brokeneducation system in fly fishing
was to put out a podcast that ischronological it's from from

(17:43):
zero to hero, basically with a,an angler that was the captain
of the U.
S.
fly fishing team.
So he's my cohost, Mr.
Lance Egan, and yeah, so nowwe're on season three and it's
had some very good successwithin the industry and it's
been cool seeing how it changespeople's perspective on fishing,
because we try and tap into alldifferent types of subjects,

(18:07):
not just like technique andspecies, but also like the
philosophical side of things too.

Alexis (18:12):
Super cool.

Pablo (18:13):
It's called the Newb and the Knower.

Alexis (18:14):
Yeah, so I mean, I think in the context of the podcast,
it was a happy, almost accidentthat I actually wound up coming
back to talk to you.
What's been really awesomeabout working with you and
actually the reason that Iwanted you on this creative
episode is you've effectivelylike, yes, you're my producer of
this, but you've actually evenidentified yourself as the

(18:37):
creative director of it, and Ithink one of the things that's
been so helpful in the contextof the podcast is you've
actually helped nurture thecreative process, and I think a
lot of the things that we'regoing to explore here are going
to ultimately tie into a lot ofthe things you you helped me do,
which is awesome.
In terms of who you are, I mean, do you want to give a

(18:59):
background on where, whereyou've been?
I mean you, well, whatever,

Pablo (19:03):
It's not---

Alexis (19:05):
But it's all relevant.
I mean, you've been a workingartist for 20 years.
I guess I'll start off and handback over to you, but I know one
of the big things that you hadwhen you were younger you had
your band, Malbec, which I thinkwas a really big.
Well, actually, even beforethat, though,

Pablo (19:24):
Well, I mean.

Alexis (19:24):
I don't know.

Pablo (19:25):
I've always been working in a creative space on some
level.
I started studying classicalguitar when I was 15.
Then I went to boarding schoolfor it, where I met your husband
Interlochen shout out there andthen I went to music school for
college.
I was a classical guitarperformance major and then
towards the end of that Irealized that I was sort of
disenchanted with the classicalscene because of their penchant

(19:48):
on perfectionism and how they itfelt uncreative actually, which
is why I sort of didn't like itthat much.
Not to bash on classical music,because I love it and I think
that it is very creative, but inthat setting it wasn't.
So anyways, I got intosongwriting and I moved to Los
Angeles after I graduated and Istarted doing some solo work,
like solo sort of album, myfirst EP.

(20:10):
I had the fortune of comingacross some people that were
already sort of set up therethat I had gone to boarding
school with, and so I did it atGraham Nash's house from Crosby,
Stills, Nash, and Young.
He has a studio in his backyardyeah, it was kind of nuts.
He would come in from time totime.

Alexis (20:24):
That's so cool.

Pablo (20:25):
Yeah, and then from there I put a band together and by
2007, I think it was we gotsigned.
We got a publishing deal, andthe interesting thing about it
was that we each got signed asindividual writers, which is
just kind of how they dopublishing.
So what that ended up allowingfor was that once the band broke
up, we were together for sevenyears and then, once we broke up

(20:47):
, I was still able to continuebeing assigned artist and writer
, just because that was thecontract.
Well, also because I wasputting out work that they liked
, but it was pretty cool.
So I went on to do a solo thing.
My focus was mainly likecommercial music and music for
TV and film.
So I had a lot of placements,uh, such as Grey's Anatomy.
And then, you know, I wrote abillboard top.

(21:07):
I can't remember what they thetitle, it was some top five
billboard stat, uh, with AlanStone, his one of his songs
called Unaware, yeah.
Then I started really focusingon the commercial music.
So I've done a bunch ofdifferent commercials.
If it's holiday time and you'rewatching TV, you see a Reese's
commercial, come on with WillArnett's voice.
There's a good chance that Imade that thing.
And then I've been scoringfilms also.

(21:29):
So through that wholetrajectory I sort of in a weird
way, through another podcastthat I produced, got involved
with some biotech people and nowI'm the creative director for a
new startup that basicallyfocuses on building life science
research facilities 2.0, thoughwe're trying to make them very
different from the traditionalmodel.
But that's all I can saywithout an NDA.
So that's where we're at.

(21:52):
Now, we're up to speed.
I try to do it as fast aspossible because it is kind of
a---

Alexis (21:56):
Oh, you also did a movie recently.

Pablo (21:59):
Yes, I did.
I've done a few short films andI also starred in a commercial
that was really bad.
It was really really bad.
That was a long time ago, butI've been scoring movies.
That's kind of been like one ofthe joys I've gotten into
recently is working on scoringshort films.
And then I wrote, directed andstarred in my own short film and

(22:21):
the cool thing is your husbandwas a gracious contributor to
the film.
So it comes full circle and weshot last January in Argentina
at about 14,000 feet.
It's like an epic journey of aindividual who suffers burnout,
actually, and could use yourpodcast.

Alexis (22:38):
Well, nice lead in coming back, uh, today's
conversations.
I mean, this is a podcast.
It's all about hidden andmisunderstood skills and habits.
You know, creativity isactually one of the first ones
that I wanted to explore.

Pablo (22:51):
I love that.

Alexis (22:52):
I mean talking about skills and habits.
What is creativity?
Is it a skill, is it a habit?
Is it something else?
What do you think?

Pablo (22:58):
it's a great question and I agree with everything that
you said in the beginning.
I think it is something thateveryone inherently has.
It's a human trait.
The problem is I think you'reright, I think that it's been
sort of mislabeled.
It's become like somethingthat's only associated with a
very niche demographic, which iscompletely unfair.
You find creativity in allaspects of your life, so to me,

(23:25):
creativity is it's like beingfree and open to create, right.
It doesn't have to be in anyparticular medium, it's just the
idea that you're able to gothere.
I taught music for a long timein the interim there, and one of
the things that people used toalways say was like you know,
like this person has no talent,so they could never learn an
instrument, and I always thoughtthat that was the weirdest
thing.
I think that there's somepeople that will inherently be

(23:45):
better than other people, butthat doesn't mean that you can't
be creative in your own right,even if you suck.
Just the fact that you're doingit means you can do it
creatively.
It doesn't have to be in musiceither.
It can be in anything really.
So to me, creativity is one ofthese things that's free flowing
in all of us, right, we justneed to tap into it, give
ourselves a chance to tap intoit and have that sort of open

(24:08):
mind to it.

Alexis (24:08):
Yeah, so it's funny you talking about talent.
I recently was perusing andlooking at different books.
Adam Grant actually has a bookcalled Hidden Potential.
His argument is actually thepeople who are most successful.
I think he's more talkingperhaps, about you know,
financially successful.
So it's, we're starting tointroduce other variables that

(24:31):
actually are kind of interesting.
But he was actually saying thatthe people who wind up being the
most successful actually arenot necessarily the people with
the most talent.
It's actually the people whoare most willing to stick it out
and they find actuallyproductive ways to stick with it
and actually continue to evolveand get better over time.

Pablo (24:53):
I can tell you, being a working musician, composer,
songwriter in Los Angeles for 14years, the people that I know
now within my network that arethe most successful are exactly
that.
They might not be like theweirdo who just comes up with
the craziest best ideas, andthey're unstoppable, which a lot

(25:14):
of times that comes along withother aspects that are not
really paired well in a businessenvironment, because ultimately
it all ends up being business,for better or for worse.
I don't know.
I'm not going to go down thatroad, for me it's worse, but
then whatever.
But you do notice that it's thepeople that stuck it out, the
ones that just showed up everysingle day and thought of it

(25:37):
more of as like a job than theydid, some sort of just hobby or
thing that they're good at.
You know, and the other side tothat is that the people that
are very talented don't have towork as hard oftentimes, which
works in the beginning, but asyou get further into the
profession it sort of ends uphurting you because you don't
have the skill sets that youneeded to be successful in that

(25:58):
industry.

Alexis (25:59):
I have so many other thoughts there, but I'm going to
come back to the question herewhen I think about creativity,
and even in really prepping forthis episode I've been digging
pretty deep on what creativityhas been and what its actually
becoming.
One of the things that I wasnoticing was that - s o I
recently stopped working.

(26:19):
I had been working at Googlefor 14 years and I think a lot
of what I had been successful atwas I worked for an institution
.
There were goals, there werespecific things that other
people had set out in a framingof what we were trying to do.
I'm really good at solvingproblems.
I'm really good at actuallyasking better questions to make

(26:40):
sure you're solving even thebest problem or even focusing on
the right thing.
But I do think that one of thethings that I didn't wind up
practicing a lot there wasactually me generating truly
novel ideas all my own.
It was always, you know, I'dbeen given assignment or my team

(27:01):
had a responsibility.
In a space I was asking all ofthe other the leaders, the
stakeholders, the people who areresponsible for doing this
stuff on the regular and so thecreative process for me there
was mostly listening to andassembling like kind of the best
of and recommending the mostbeneficial path forward, but

(27:22):
actually most of the things thatI was doing maybe it was
creating a tool or a processthat was inherently creative,
but I wasn't actually doing liketrue raw creation, if that
makes any sense.
And I think what's actuallybeen really fun about this
podcast is it's actually evencomes back into a question we
were texting about of like is apodcast art?

(27:43):
I actually feel like what thispodcast for me is becoming is
almost like philosophical art.

Pablo (27:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that's one of thecomponents to to make what I
consider true art or serious artis there has to be a
philosophical component to ittalk to me about that a little
more okay, so I'm so curious.
I've had a lot of late nightconversations about this, but it
always brings me back to twothings in my life, which one we
might end up talking about later, which is sort of the X factor.

(28:13):
But, the other one is my uncle,my dad's cousin is he was an
Argentine painter that waspretty well known, big enough to
where they do, like you know,exhibitions and stuff like that
in the Palace of Arts andwhatnot in Argentina and Buenos
Aires and Córdoba, wherever.
But so I went to dinner onetime at a friend of my wife's

(28:33):
house and I walk into thisperson's place and it's just
like the most beautifulcollection of art in this old
sort of European style mansiondowntown.
The walls were all marble andthey had paintings and
pre-Columbian art and sculpturesjust everywhere.
Well, it turns out the guy wasan Argentine art collector of

(28:55):
which I owned a bunch of hisprints.
Once he told me his name, I waslike this is just so weird and
serendipitous because I actuallyhave the prints that you've
made of some Argentine artist.
So we ended up kind of goinginto the kitchen while my wife
hung out with all her friendsthat she was reconnecting with.
I went into the kitchen withhim---his name's Giacomo--- and
we just started talking aboutart and what makes art and what

(29:18):
is creativity and talent, andall these things that we're sort
of discussing right now.
Now this man is like one ofthese stoic old school art
people that, like, have acertain vision for what art is.
So there's a lot of famous workthat he wouldn't consider art
and the word that he used wasserious art.
I'm putting that in air quotesfor the people listening that

(29:38):
can't see me.
You know the word I use is trueart, but his whole point was
serious art is something thatcomes from within you.
And we started talking about itbecause I had told him that I
was composing music forcommercials and he's like that's
not art.
And I was like how is that notart?
He started naming all thesepeople, like he's like do you
think John Lennon would do that?
And and he kept on being likeyou know, an artist makes art

(30:00):
because they have to, because itcomes out of them, not because
it's commissioned, and it's likethey're doing it for the money,
which I kind of laughed at,because Rembrandt had a bunch of
ghost painters and Bach waswriting all of his music for the
king.
So I kind of thought that wassilly, but it did bring me down
a couple of notches because Ihad a lot of respect for this

(30:20):
guy and he had a really goodpoints.
The man was very intelligent.
So I wasn't about to get in afight with like a 90 year old
man over art, but it did get alittle spicy in there for a
second.
But what I sort of walked awayfrom with that conversation was
a huge opportunity for me tosort of rethink and recalibrate
what my take on art was formyself and my work.

(30:42):
So I've removed his idea ofserious art and I've turned it
into what I call true art.
And I don't think thatnecessarily has to fall into any
medium.
I think it just requires a fewcomponents, and this is a work
in progress.
So maybe my definition willchange.
I don't even think it's adefinition, I think it's just
key components to what make art.
So one, I think is philosophy.

(31:05):
I think it has to bephilosophical on some level.
Even if you're like making funof something like The Onion, to
me that's art, you know.

Alexis (31:14):
Yeah, sure.

Pablo (31:16):
The next is process.
There has to be a process to it.
Maybe your process is like, youknow, you're like Basquiat and
you just take ketchup and youjust splat it on a page and you
make something of it.
Whatever your process is that'ssomething, right.
It's calculated and it could beshort, it could be long, you
know there's no metric there butI think there has to be that

(31:37):
component to it.
And the last one, and one ofthe more important ones, it has
to make you, and at leastsomeone else, feel something.
So if it's just something thatyou do and no one feels anything
towards it, then I feel likeit's very hard to qualify it,
because that's really theobjective of art is to get some
sort of reaction good, bad, sad,whatever.

(31:59):
And if you take it out of theartistic sort of side of an
industry, you know, like I usedto talk about my old man he's an
oncologist and I used to alwaysthink of him as like an artist,
like what he does, like hecures people's cancer.
You know he has a philosophybehind it, he has a very clear
process and at the end of theday, people feel something from

(32:19):
his work, right.
So I think it qualifies for myperspective, right.
And then where talent fits into, there is sort of arbitrary.
I think that it's a greatcomponent and it oftentimes
creates exceptional art.
But not all art has to beexceptional, right?
That's the thing, that's themistake that I think I see a lot
of people making.

(32:40):
It's like you talk to peoplethat are trying to get into
music or something, they want tobe a songwriter and they expect
their first song to be theirhit album and it's like, no,
that's not how this works.

Alexis (32:52):
It's not the way it works.

Pablo (32:53):
You have to take time and do it.

Alexis (32:54):
Well, it's also.
It's even is a hit album.
Does that mean that it'sactually good art?

Pablo (32:59):
Exactly.

Alexis (33:00):
At all either.

Pablo (33:01):
You know, that's where it gets tricky, but.

Alexis (33:03):
Well, and that's actually one of the things I
think that I have struggled within pursuing art at any point in
my life.
Also, this podcast itself,which is the idea of, like,
internal versus externalvalidation or purpose.
You know, are you doing it foryourself, like or is success, or
you know, deciding it's good?

(33:24):
Is that something you'redeciding on your own or are you
actually looking for externalvalidation?
And I'll tell you, having beenin the corporate world for you
know, over 20 years, like,literally, it is external
validation.
Someone else is paying you todo it.
If you're trying to go up thecareer ladder, you literally
have to have other peoplevouching for you saying that

(33:49):
you've met the criteria.
Yes, you are a person that webelieve in.
Also, any of the kind of likeleadership, growth kind of
things, like you get literallyhandpicked to be part of them.
So I think also when I wasyounger, part of the reason I,
you know, I think also when Iwas younger, part of the reason
I even pursued music in thefirst place was, like people
told me I was good right and youknow I got different awards and

(34:11):
other things that like kept megoing on it.
But I also struggled becauseactually for me and music it was
, I kept I'd do something for awhile and then I just like I hit
this point where I just had itI'd like stop, and then I'd come
back six months, a couple ofyears later or whatever.
One of the interesting thingsabout it too, was that not only

(34:32):
would I come back feelingrefreshed and like no, I'm doing
this for me, like I wanna do it, I think at almost perhaps
every single one of these, Isuddenly had some skill or
talent or something that haddeveloped in the time, even
while I wasn't activelypracticing it, which is really
weird.
I think for music and I thinkfor art in general, I had this

(34:54):
sort of back and forth and it'slike when we are living in a
society again when moneychanging hands is such a
important part of what we needto do to pay bills and to do
stuff, it's hard to turn offthat external validation need.
It's like drilled into us andbeing able to come back and

(35:14):
actually say, no, I'm gonna dothis for my own reasons and even
even if people are giving melike weird looks and stuff, I'm
like I don't care what you think, like I'm doing this for me and
I don't you know for me for thepodcast.
Right now I don't even knowwhat I think and I'm so curious,
like there's so many thingsyou've already put out here that
are fascinating to me and likethis is such a great excuse for

(35:36):
a conversation we wouldn't havehad otherwise.

Pablo (35:39):
It's true.
It's definitely true.
That's what's cool aboutpodcasting also it has that
aspect to it.

Alexis (35:44):
You talked about the X factor before.
Can you talk about that alittle bit more in detail?

Pablo (35:48):
Yes, I've brought it up on my podcast, which is kind of
funny, also because it'ssomething that I've spent a lot
of time thinking about, becausea large part of my life was
spent making what I'm callingart and trying to get paid for
it, and so that forces you tothink of, well, why did this one
work and that one didn't, andwhat's the difference between me

(36:10):
and them in certain situations,right?
So I started thinking a lotabout the X factor, which I use
that phrase sort of before theshow came out, so forgive me for
that, I don't have another realname for it.
There's a colleague of minethat calls it Eureka Metrics,
but it is sort of like thatintangible ingredient that makes

(36:31):
art and whatever medium godlike, for lack of a better word.
I always use this examplebecause it was really the first
time I had seen it in person andit was so visceral.
But when I was studyingclassical guitar, they used to
have these masterclasses everyMonday where people preparing to
do their concerts would go andperform in front of the entire

(36:51):
guitar faculty and the students.
So it's kind of like if you canpicture an amphitheater sort of
style lecture hall in a collegeand down on the floor is a
guitarist and the maestro whowas the head of the department,
and then everyone else sits inthe seats and they listen.
So on this particular day, whenI was there, this classical

(37:12):
guitarist who was deemed thebest in the world was also there
doing an honorary PhD.
Denis Azabagic.
He's this Croatian guy who'sincredible.
He had just won the GuitarFoundation of America
competition, which is the mostprestigious competition in the
US for classical guitarists, andso he was doing his thing.
What was interesting about theschool that I went to was that
because it was a, you know, itwas like third best music school

(37:34):
in the country, but the guitardepartment wasn't that robust in
a way.
So in order to bolster thenumbers, they would just sort of
let a lot of people in thatshouldn't have been in there.
So it was kind of a mixed bag.
You had like the best guy inthe entire world and then
somebody that probably shouldn'thave been studying that
.
So Denis gets up to play.
He's playing the Bach Chaconne.

(37:55):
It's like a 17 minute piece andit's very tricky.
It's technically very difficult, but it also requires a lot of
like mental prowess becausethere's, like these, certain
parts that almost tend to wantto loop themselves, but there'll
be one or two different notesthat change.
That leads you down a differentpath and if you don't hit them,
you can get lost basically inthe piece.
So it's just notoriouslydifficult.

(38:17):
The guy gets up there, hediscusses his piece and he
starts to play.
It's absolutely beautiful.
Perfection.
I'm looking around the roomwhile he's playing and I start
to notice that no one's reallythat locked in.
It's like the first fiveminutes they watch and then, as
the things go on, it's like oneguy's working on his homework,

(38:39):
another person's falling asleep,another person's rifling
through their bag.
This is kind of insane.
We have the best guitar playerin the world right now playing
for us and no one gives a.
What is happening right now?

Alexis (38:52):
Wow.

Pablo (38:52):
So it was kind of interesting.
And then what was crazy was hefinishes, they go over some
notes and then the nextguitarist comes up.
Now this person was like afreshman in college and one of
these like what I like to callnumbers, quote unquote, which is
basically like someone that wasjust there to like put money
into the department.
They get up there and they playLágrima by Tárrega, which is
like one of the most beginnerpieces you could play.

(39:13):
It's beautiful, but it's notvery difficult.
And this poor fellow gets upthere, he puts down his
footstool, puts his guitar onhis knee, starts talking his
voice is shaky, his hands aretrembling, his guitar is like,
looks like it's electrifiedbecause he's like so unstable
and he starts to play and it isjust a train wreck, full-on

(39:37):
train wreck.
I don't think he got more thanlike four or five notes even out
.
It was just not okay.

Alexis (39:43):
Oh God.

Pablo (39:44):
I felt horrible.
I looked at everyone in theroom and there wasn't a single
person that wasn't watching thisperformance.
Right, and I was like what?
This is insane.
How is this possible?
This makes no sense.
And I realized then that for me, again, I can only speak from
my own perspective, but I thinkthat the X factor is actually

(40:07):
the combination of those twoperformances: technically
perfect, but could fall apart atany moment.
Right, it's like riding thatrazor's edge where it's like
controlled chaos basically right.
It's like in the case of aclassical musician.
It would be like they know thepiece so well they would never
get lost in the bachacone andthey wouldn't flub a note.
But they also have the freedomto be so expressive that they

(40:32):
are just like moving with thepiece not just playing the piece
, if that makes sense likethey're literally like puking
their guts out and, yeah, theirheart isn't entangled in every
note.
You know what I mean.

Alexis (40:44):
Yeah, it's making me think of like a singer that
literally they could startcrying or screaming or whatever
the emotion is, like it's thesinging is on the cusp of that.

Pablo (40:57):
Yes, exactly it's that thing, and it doesn't have to be
like loud and boisterous either.
It can be - like, super quiet.
You know it's more about theemotion that's attached to it,
and so I think, for my standards, really good true art has that
component.
You know the best shows I'veever been to of bands or
whatever.
They do that and they alwaysmake you feel something right.

(41:17):
You always walk away just likewith your mind blown and I think
it's that thing.
But I don't think that in orderto be creative, you have to
have the X factor right.
Going back to sort of what wewere talking about, I just think
that in order to make true art,you do you know what I mean.

Alexis (41:32):
Well, and yeah, and I think that's kind of that
philosophical bit.
It's funny that that actuallycomes back Like that's the
things that I'm starting to feelabout this that I hadn't been
feeling about other things thatI've done, at least in a long
time.

Pablo (41:45):
Yeah.
-

Alexis (41:46):
But I was known as someone who was inherently
creative.
I was, in fact, hired.
You know that whole Larry storywas about, that's cool, that
she did this thing.
Like that means that she can becreative in an you know, in an
applied way, and that those arethe types of things that you
need to do for like problemsolving of business problems.

Pablo (42:05):
Yeah, and I think that's true.
You know, I think that's whyit's funny that a lot of people,
like, don't consider themselvescreative.
You know, I think I can't playmusic, I can't draw, you know,
it's always like about how badthey are, but meanwhile they're
like, you know, crazymathematicians, or you know they
are like shipping and receivingstrategists that are just you
know what I mean.
Or whatever your discipline is,or you can make the most

(42:27):
perfect coffee you've ever drank.
It's kind of unfair that itgets pigeonholed to just like
the arts.
I've always said that.

Alexis (42:35):
Yeah, so I want to come back to.
I talked in the opening part ofthe episode that creativity is
something that you can grow, youcan nurture it.
Can you talk to me about?
If someone said Pablo, I wantto get more creative or I want
to pursue this project, whatwould you recommend that they do
?

Pablo (42:55):
That the biggest part to it, I think?
Well, there's two of them.
One is just allowing yourselfto be free in a non-judgmental
environment, and that's mainlyfor yourself, because when you
allow this sort of creativevulnerability, it feels very
unsafe at first, and thishappens to me even.
I've been a creative my wholelife basically, but like not in

(43:17):
all aspects of my work, butcertain ones that are new.
You know, like as of the lastthree years now I'm taking on
more of like a creative directorrole where I'm doing a lot more
things in brand identity andstrategic creative decisioning
and stuff like that.
So for me, I also have thatthing where it's like I have to
allow myself a space to thinkjust through the creative idea

(43:40):
and not how anyone's going toreact to it.
Because, as soon as you startthinking about

Alexis (43:45):
that external validation bit?

Pablo (43:47):
Yes exactly, that's poison.
It's really poison to thecreative space.
And I think that it's importantto have people there sort of
checking your work orexperiencing your work, because
that's what makes it, that'spart of what makes it art for me
, I think, is like someone elsehas seen it right.
It made someone feel somethinglike I had said.
But I think it's also a laterstage of the process, so in the

(44:09):
beginning you don't have toshare it with anyone.
You can just keep it foryourself but allow yourself an
untethered, vulnerable creativespace to just create whatever
the creative thing is right.
And the other thing is to do itas much as you can.
And fly fishing, we say.
You know, you can read all thebooks in the world, but unless
you spend time on the water,you're never going to be a good

(44:31):
angler.
And the same applies to acreative person.
You can read books aboutcreativity, you can listen to
podcasts about creativity, butunless you're actually sitting
down and doing the work, it'snot going to happen.
And there's another story, I'lltell you.
That sort of works perfectlywith this concept.
But I think it was BruceSpringsteen that said I don't
know the exact way he said it,but just to paraphrase.
He basically said that he sitsdown every day to write a song

(44:54):
and he's doing it not to writehis best song, but he has to be
sitting at his desk writing asong so that his best song comes
out of him, and he writes abunch of bad songs to get to
that one great song, and that'sBruce Springsteen, right.

Alexis (45:09):
Well, by the way, also another person who I think of
for that same thing is Prince.
When he died, his vault had,like so many finished videos and
finished songs, and that's onlylike the whole thing that I

(45:45):
remember hearing about him washe wrote a song every single
day, especially in the eighties,that was, like his most
prolific period, you know.
So Prince has something like 41top one hits, and, like, that's
a really high number of themcompared to most artists.
But he probably created 10times that number of songs if
not more, over the course of hislife.
And again, we come back to thequestion also is is a number one
hit actually, actually a signof good art.
That's a totally separatequestion which I'm going to just
park.

Pablo (45:57):
That's a different podcast.
is a totally different.
But I think if you even have a5% hit rate of the things you
produce being good like,.
that's insane.
Yeah, I agree, I agree, I meanit's not it shouldn't be about
the that end goal anyways, likethe process is so important,
Like that's really what you'retrying to do.

(46:17):
You're trying to be creative.
The end result is just theproduct that comes out of it,
you know, and hopefully it'sgood, but if it doesn't all that
sort of arbitrary you know whatI mean, Especially in the
beginning you're just trying tooutput as much as you can.

Alexis (46:29):
I'll say---and I am not a prolific songwriter--- I have
created an album and I do stillwrite songs from time to time
and I'm actually trying to getinto it again right now.
But my thought around why Ineed to produce more is that
it's actually.
I'll get really fixated on someidea.

(46:50):
I'm working thinking like thisis the coolest thing ever and
like it's just not happening,and I need to be able to close
it out enough so I can actuallylike shelve it and see what else
is going to come up.

Pablo (47:02):
Yeah.

Alexis (47:02):
Because oftentimes they'll like stick around long
enough and be like so insidiousof like I just need to fricking
finish this.

Pablo (47:10):
I mean, that's the hardest part.
The first 40% is like gloriousand you're like, oh, this feels
so good and I'm like in lovewith this whole process.
And then, once you've writtenenough to where it's like, okay,
there's something there, right,then Then the back 60 is brutal

(47:31):
.
I totally have one of thoseright now.
Yeah, I got, I got intorecently I'm doing a songwriters
group, with a bunch of moms,which is super cool.
And we're getting weeklyprompts and you're supposed to
submit them.
I'm still stuck on the one fromlast week that I wrote.
I love the lyrics that I wrote,but it's just not working with
the rest of it.
But I can't, like I have foundmyself I'm unable to like move

(47:54):
on to the next.
I'm like, so stuck on it, whichis anyway.
Well, that kind of goes into the idea of what I was
saying, sort of like doing itevery day.
Another thing that goes alongwith doing it every day is
because you're doing it so much,the work becomes much less
sacred.
You're much more free to be likeokay, well, I know, tomorrow
I'm going to write another song,so that's fine.

(48:15):
Or it even allows you to sort ofgrow sort of a bank of ideas
that you can sort of mix andmatch and, like you know, for
any songwriting, as our sort ofexample medium, you know, you
can take lyrics or chordprogressions, or you know even
conceptual ideas and put them ona song that, a new song that
you're doing, and be like I havealways loved this line, this

(48:36):
song is not going anywhere, I'lljust use the line and then
write a whole nother song aroundthat or whatever.
You know, like there's no rulesreally, you know.
That's the whole point is, ifyou can think more macro a lot
of times with these things, thenthings become much less
precious and you're much.
It's much easier for you tojust sort of keep moving, you
know, and not get stuck, causeit's like it's just a fleeting

(48:57):
moment, whereas if you're onlydoing one thing a week, you know
, then it's like well, I have toget this done because this is
like my song, it's not one ofyour millions of songs, right,
right?

Alexis (49:09):
So yeah, all right.
Coming back to therecommendation, so be in a
judgment free place, like giveyourself room to be vulnerable
and do as much as you can.
Is there anything else that youwould put in there?

Pablo (49:21):
Yeah, I think this is one that doesn't get mentioned very
often.
This is why I'm going tomention it.
I think try and get inspiredfrom other things out there, but
not in the same lane.
So if you're songwriting, don'tlisten to I mean, yes, listen
to records if you want to, ofcourse, but I tend to try not to
do that when I'm working, whichis kind of weird, but I'm a bit

(49:43):
of a chameleon.
I mean, I was, I'm a commercialcomposer, so it's, if I
listened to too much of onething, I ended up sounding like
it.
So what I ended up doing isgoing to different art forms
books, movies, blogs, websitedesign, just other things to
sort of inspire me.
You know, if you're songwriting, one thing that I love to do
that is a great example of thisis go to YouTube and type in you

(50:06):
know random city, Budapest,drone footage and put that on
your screen and write to it, andall of a sudden you're writing
like your own music video,without even realizing.
And that's a creative way toapproach creativity, right.
So you can do that in any sortof discipline.
It doesn't have to be justsongwriting.
You know, you can try and solveyour business problem by going

(50:29):
to some website or some creativespace and seeing how they did
something and think of itabstractly and see if you can
apply that solution to yourproblem.
You'd be surprised how manyideas it kicks out and stuff
that you wouldn't normally thinkof right?

Alexis (50:44):
Yeah, what you're describing to me sounds like be
curious about other things andyes.
I do have plans to makeanother episode that explores
very deeply curiosity as its ownthing.

Pablo (50:59):
That's great.

Alexis (51:00):
I do think that that is extremely tied in.
I actually part of what I wasthinking about is, you know, if
the creation of new things is like a wood pellet I'm thinking
about, like a wood pellet fire?
I feel like the pelletsthemselves are actually
curiosity, things that you'recurious about and new ideas, and

(51:21):
the only way to get more newideas is to be open and curious
about the things you don't knowabout just yet.
Yes, and curious about thethings you don't know about just
yet.
Yes, and you can constantlyfeed the fire of creation.
Yes, and being in that creativeplace is there, and then the
output winds up being eithersolving it can be problem

(51:42):
solving, so it can be in abusiness context.
It could also be like yourcabinet door that I gave a weird

(52:04):
example in my lead in.
Or it can be art for the sakeof art, which those are two
related but very different waysof turning the thoughts into
something more than just thethoughts.

Pablo (52:07):
Yeah, harping back to your intro you were talking
about two different people canoutput something different,
right?
There was a moment where youmentioned something along those
lines and I see that withcreativity, all the time you can
give an assignment or a briefto two different people, the
results will be wildly different.
And that's because a huge partof creativity which goes along
with sort of this curiositything is experience.

(52:28):
You're a filter for whateveryou experience.
So you experience something,you process it and then you put
that into your work, right.
So I think experiencing thingsis also really important, which
is a really funny thing because,as you know, this is like a
side note, but as songwritersand producers get older, they

(52:51):
become more sedentary and theyhave less experience than they
did in their 20s.
So it becomes much harder towrite like your opus as you get
older, because you're just notin the wheelhouse as much,
because you've kind of settled,you know, know.
So it's important.
I mean, I always tell people,drive in the car or get out of
your space.

(53:12):
Try and find new places tostill be thinking about
creativity.
There's a book called I can'tremember the name of the book.
There's a book I read, though.

Alexis (53:24):
Congratulations, Pablo.
You can read.

Pablo (53:27):
But it's sort of.
It's all about the creativemind and from a scientific point
of view, and one of the biggesttakeaways from the book that I
found very interesting becauseit totally was true in my own
experience was that the creativemind solves problems when it's
not actually thinking about them.
It's a subconscious mind thatis actually solving the problem,
which is why a lot of times Iwould get ideas for songs or

(53:50):
melodies, for compositions whenI was in the shower or I'm
driving.
Driving has become like myfavorite way to write, like you
can ask my wife.
She wants to punch me becauseI'm constantly tapping voice
memos on my Apple watch andsinging into the thing, whether
it's a beat, a bass line or amelody, but it's funny how just
like a long drive will, just youknow your conscious mind is is

(54:12):
concentrated on steering thevehicle and keeping you alive,
and your subconscious mind justdrifts to some other place.
There's a million ways to dothings like that, so that would
be another another thing that isgood experience.

Alexis (54:25):
Yeah, speaking of books, um, when I, 20 years ago now, I
remember trying to do theArtist's Way.

Pablo (54:31):
Oh yeah.
Julia Cameron, very, very, verypopular book
in creative circles.
I will also admit I neverfinished it.
I don't think I know anyone whohas.
Well.
So actually I love there aretwo weekly practices that she
that it's literally like part ofthe process.
One of them is that you'resupposed to do morning pages, so

(54:53):
you have to write three pages aday and just put your pen to
paper or pencil, whatever, andit's like, even if you don't
have anything to say, whatyou're supposed to write is I
don't have anything to say.
I still don't have anything tosay, and eventually you'll
actually start getting out ofyour way.
I think that was one of thosethings I remember when I started
doing it.
I did do those things like Idon't have anything to say, and

(55:16):
there's times when I actuallyneed to journal, whether it's
I'm protecting my thoughts or Idon't want, like, the really
ugly stuff to get out.
I'll even use that still.
That goes along with thatconcept I told you about last
week, about reaching in the well.
So reaching in the well isbasically the idea that you have
a well of creative ideas insideof you, but it's very hard to

(55:39):
get to them unless you've sortof like dug a channel.
And the only way you can digthe channel is by constantly
sitting down and forcingyourself to do the creative work
, which is totally exactly whatI was saying when I was saying
just do it as much as you canspend time on the water.
Quote unquote.
The more time you spend beingcreative, you would think that
you would use up your creativeideas, but actually the opposite

(56:00):
happens.
You have access to way more andit becomes so much easier to
like write a great line, or youknow come up with a creative
solution, or paint a beautifulpainting.
It's just the way it works.
It's just that you just getbetter at it.
It's like you've practiced itand you're you.
You just keep feeling the wellmore and more and more.

Alexis (56:19):
Yeah, it's like creativity begets creativity.
It's like the law of abundancesort of thought.

Pablo (56:25):
Yes, yes.

Alexis (56:26):
The other thing that the Artist's Way though the book.
The other assignment you haveon every week is to go on a date
with yourself, which I think isa really interesting one too.
I remember when I started doingit it was I felt so awkward and
I was recently talking to oneof my friends so you know mid
40s who.
I was like, oh, you, should youwant to go ice skating?

(56:47):
Like, just go ice skating, youdon't.
And they was like oh, you wantto go ice skating, just go ice
skating.
And they were saying, oh, no,I'll bring my daughter.
And I was like, no, that'sliterally not the purpose.
If this is for you, it's foryou, and as soon as your
daughter's there, it's about her.
I think there's a lot of peoplewho actually this makes very
uncomfortable the idea of goingand eating a meal by yourself

(57:08):
simply for the sake of doing ityourself.
But I also think that part ofwhat it is is it's tapping into
my own actual thoughts.
Again, it's the practice of themore often that you are just
with yourself, you get morecomfortable being with yourself,
and that's the only place whereyou can truly unlock and

(57:29):
unleash your own ideas asopposed to reacting to something
that someone else says and likeoh, now I have an idea no, I
think that's true and it's funnythat you're mentioning this
sort of solo, solo hangout.

Pablo (57:43):
I don't know if it's because I've been living in a
creative sort of workenvironment for so long at this
point, but I crave that.
Every year on my birthday I doa solo camping trip and then
intermittently, whenever I can,I escape to like.
Fly fishing has given me anexcuse.
It's basically just a way to doexactly what you're saying.

(58:04):
It gives me a purpose to do itright, but it's way less about
actually like the fishing aspect.
It's more about being alone innature.
You know I do it with otherpeople also, but like and I
always feel bad saying this andI guess I shouldn't, but I enjoy
being on a river by myself asmuch as I do with other people
if that makes sense and it'sjust.
It's for that exact reason.

(58:25):
There's a certain like breathof fresh air that you get.
It's like hitting the resetbutton when you're just by
yourself for a while.
You know.

Alexis (58:32):
Yeah, well, I mean, it means that you're also doing it
for the benefit of you, you'renot doing it for someone else.
I actually want to come back tothe question of process.
I think I love the tips thatyou're talking about in terms of
the creative process.
When I was thinking about this,I was actually thinking about
the work application of thecreative process and you know,

(58:56):
having come from Google wherethere's, you know, 10x, thinking
that's kind of a whole concept.
There is actually a processthat, like we use, or I'm not
part of Google anymore, am I sothey use once upon a time I used
while I worked there anyway,but it's kind of.

(59:16):
There's a couple steps in it.
The first one is to really getclear on what it is that you're
actually doing.
So, if it's a particularproblem, what is the problem?
But not just like, oh, I needto build a tool.
It's like, no, why are youbuilding the tool?
What's the actual underlyingthing that you're trying to
solve?
And we were talking about thisa little bit too, of if you're

(59:40):
trying to actually do somethingcreative, you're much better off
shooting for like a vibe or avision than you are a particular
thing, because the morespecific that you get in terms
of your goal, the more you'reactually going to prevent
yourself from being able toactually have wildly creative
thoughts that sometimes canoften wind up being the best

(01:00:03):
ideas that you would get.
So that's step one.
Step two is actually schedulingtime for this, and I would
actually say in general, you'remuch better off having time
split over multiple days or evenpotentially having breaks
between them so that you canlike sleep on ideas and let
things develop.

Pablo (01:00:23):
It's a huge part of my process, by the way.

Alexis (01:00:25):
Yeah, cause I think one of the things I my process, by
the way.
Yeah, cause I think one of thethings I, having come from this
world, like I was constantlyhaving just this sense of
massive urgency, need to do ityesterday.
That can also be super, superproblematic around, like if
you're trying to be creative,you gotta let it, you gotta let
it be, and like it's gotta cometogether.

Pablo (01:00:46):
I think so.
You know there's people thatthat disagree with that.
But I had a conversation sortof a little bit about who you're
making the work for and andpart of that process, and
there's certain people thatthink, well, you know, if you're
really good, then you can do itunder pressure and you can.
You can do it for whateverclient asks you for, like

(01:01:09):
towards their taste.
And I have a differentphilosophy around that, because
I think that if you're beingtrue to the art, then you're
doing it in a way that seemsnatural to you and that actually
the art is so true that itdraws the right audience to your
work.
If that makes sense.
Instead of you trying tocapture them, they capture you

(01:01:30):
in a way.
So, and I think that the waitingpart of it everyone's different
, right, but for me personally,that's a huge part of my process
.
Like I will just puke out ideasand then I have something and
then I can't look at it for likea day or two or listen to it
for a day or two, because I needthat perspective.
Then I come back and I'm like awhole new wave of ideas comes

(01:01:52):
through, right, you don't alwayshave the luxury.

Alexis (01:01:54):
Right.

Pablo (01:01:55):
Commercial composing is like really quick turnaround,
you know, you have like 24 hoursto do it, you know.

Alexis (01:01:59):
Well, and if you have a product launch or you're in a
competitive situation,especially, this is where a lot
of these things start cominginto play.
Like there are deadlines, likeI understand there are deadlines
, it's, it's a valid thing ifyour actual, true goal is to
have the most creative andpotential game-changing ideas

(01:02:21):
come out.
Um, putting forcible, you know,stopping points on it, yes,
will inherently limit it, andit's possible you may wind up
having the best idea out of thegate and just you go and that
does happen.

Pablo (01:02:35):
That does happen, yes.

Alexis (01:02:36):
So it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't
do it in the timeframe, buthaving that as like a
requirement of the process doesbecome problematic.
One of the other things I knowat Google that we used to do was
the idea of trying to make itfun.
So it really sort of amplifyingthe idea of it being a playful
experience and, like just youknow, it's sort of actually

(01:02:57):
coming back to Julia Cameron herwhole book is talking about how
you unleash your inner child.
You know the idea of the mostpure, purely creative ideas
coming from a place ofanything's possible.
It's kind of like you knowyou're talking about having a
judgment-free zone.

Pablo (01:03:14):
Yes.

Alexis (01:03:14):
Being able to throw out silly, ridiculous things.
The statement might be silly orridiculous, but it might
actually spawn really cool stuffthat comes out of it.

Pablo (01:03:24):
Yeah, I think play is really important and giving
yourself time for that andyou're coming from a sort of a
specific vibe.
But if you flipped it, let'ssay you're trying to write like
the saddest song you've everwritten in your whole life I can
almost guarantee you the firstline you write you will think is
cheesy and dumb, because it'svery hard to make something like
that feel real.

(01:03:45):
But if you allow yourself timeto play, you'll live in that
space.
You'll start to become that,you will physically become sad
and then that's where the magichappens.
But it's never going to happenif you're not allowing yourself
that sort of vulnerable playspace.

Alexis (01:03:59):
Well, and I think another thing about the timing
of all of it.
If you are in a bad mood forwhatever reason or there's like
really challenging thingshappening in your life this week
or whatever, being able toactually revisit all this stuff
next week once, like okay,things are calmer, I actually am
in a much better space, likethat's another reason we're

(01:04:20):
having more time and space to beable to do this is helpful.
So in sort of this innovationprocess, I'd call that step two
scheduling time to play, and I'dagree with you the more times
like on the mat that you get,the better.
The third step in the processyou know again thinking about

(01:04:41):
this from more of that problemsolving innovation process is to
get out as many idea conceptsas you can.
You actually described this inwhat you were just saying there.
One of the exercises, if youactually do like an innovation
workshop, is everyone gets abunch of post-it notes.
I actually am holding up somepost-it notes here they're hot
pink, I also have yellow, and Ido have blue here too.

Pablo (01:05:01):
Hey, nice.
Depends on the idea category.

Alexis (01:05:04):
Ooh well, or you, if you have a big group, like for an
innovation workshop, you'dactually be throwing like 50
people together in a room whereit's literally you're having a
brainstorming session andeveryone is supposed to put up
at least 10 post-its or whatever, but the more the better.
The ideas just get those ideasflowing and literally the

(01:05:26):
purpose of that day is to throwall of this stuff up on the wall
.
You may wind up doing thisstart of a funneling process
where you start saying yes tothis, no to this, or
categorizing what the differentresponses are.
That may or may not be part ofthat day, but the most core step
is literally to get as manypossible ideas that you have out

(01:05:48):
.
Step four is actually honingdown, having that list to come
from and picking one of them tomove forward with, and you start
making moves.
The goal with this there's theidea of fail fast.
The best thing that you can dois, if you have a crappy idea is
to realize it's a crappy ideaas quickly as you possibly can.
So then you're like, okay,throw it out, move on to the

(01:06:10):
next one.
What's the next one from thelist that we're going to go pick
up?
But basically you start makingthose moves and then, while
you're in that, you'rereevaluating what's going on and
are you going to rejigger it.
Maybe the idea is good, butactually the way that you've
gone after it is not working out.
Play, actually, the way thatyou've gone after it is not
working out.
Play around, try it again.
Like you know, if you'rewriting a song, okay, well,

(01:06:31):
let's keep the chord progression, but let's change the lyrics,
or actually all of it's good,but I don't like where the
melody is going with this.
Sometimes also again that failfast idea.
Maybe just you know what.
We're going to cut our losses,let's try something else that's
different, but also from a placeof not judging yourself over

(01:06:51):
that.
It's fine to fail.
In fact, again like celebratefailure is even a thing that
we--- I'm not there anymore---they try to do you should try to
do.
Let's talk about you listener,right?

Pablo (01:07:06):
I should say I think failure is such a crappy word
for this sort of applicationjust because to me actually
can't really get to the goodstuff unless you get the bad
stuff out of the way.
So for me it's just like apipeline to magic sauce, right,
and so like you got to sort ofclear the pipeline so that the

(01:07:27):
magic can come out, you know.

Alexis (01:07:29):
Yeah.

Pablo (01:07:29):
What we're calling the failures are actually very
important parts of the process.
Right, it's like the rocksbefore the gold.
You know, I love those failures.
I hate them, going through them, but like I know how important
they are, so I forced myself tojust make it.
And then I'm like, okay, I'vegone far enough with this, it's
never going to happen.
Bye.
And then you keep going.

Alexis (01:07:50):
I love.
I love the call out on this.
By the way, there is a questionthat I recall having asked all
sorts of people that Iinterviewed when I was working
at Google that focused on talkabout a failure, and I remember
I actually got it in aninterview for a follow-on job
and I was like I hate thisquestion.
I haven't failed.

(01:08:11):
There's a lot of things I mean.
Arguably yes, you could say,but thinking about the things
that you've done in your pastthat you failed at actually
inherently promotes this idea ofhaving regrets and that you did
bad.

Pablo (01:08:26):
Yeah, exactly.

Alexis (01:08:27):
And at the point that I had this one interview, I was
already at least 10 years intomy job there and was like I had
shifted my thinking so muchbecause of this whole concept of
failing fast and postmortemsand like actually like, looking
at the things that werehappening and basically
blameless postmortems it's noone's particular fault.

(01:08:47):
It was actually the processitself that had issues with it
and there were people involvedin this.
But, like I'm not blaming youfor this outcome that we had.
Anyway, I'm with you as to theidea of, like I'll still call it
fail fast but it's not like you, failed.

Pablo (01:09:02):
I was just trying to clarify.
Oh no, I love the clarification.
Because the failure is like so part of it.
You know it's like so important.

Alexis (01:09:13):
I would actually argue again.
I think I was saying celebratewhen that happens, because you
made a decision and you'reactually moving in another
direction and that's great thatyou're making.
I talk a lot about making moves.
You're just continue to makemore moves.
Anyway, the last step in this isto call it done, which is, in
my opinion, one of the biggestthings that actually doesn't
happen in this process.
There's a lot of times youactually finish it and either

(01:09:36):
you leave it in a somewhatincomplete state or you never
tell people that you did it, oryou know if it.
If it's a song like great, Ifinished the song.
Well, did you ever go to anopen mic night with it?
Or actually get up on a stageat some show and play it?
Or have you recorded it andactually like put it on an album

(01:09:56):
or at least somewhere, you know, on SoundCloud or whatever?
I suppose there are alsoprobably artists out there who
would start yelling at me and belike that doesn't mean but, but
I do think that there issomething that you described it
in your form of true art.

Pablo (01:10:12):
Someone has seen it or heard it or experienced it.
I think that that's animportant part of it, and it's
more about making someone feelsomething.
Whether that's good or baddoesn't matter.
It's the fact that they feelsomething.
A lot of important art.
People either hate it or loveit.
I'm actually going through thisright now with my company
because I'm doing the logo andit's like split.

(01:10:32):
No one's like, yeah, it's okay,they're like I hate that thing,
or they're like this is the mostinsane thing I've ever seen, so
it's been difficult.

Alexis (01:10:36):
I know we're probably running low on time here, so we
should start thinking aboutclosing it up.
I do have one other question Iwant to ask you before we go
there.

Pablo (01:10:37):
Sure.

Alexis (01:10:37):
One of the one of the ideas I've been playing around
with is this idea of power moves.
So the concept of a power moveis it's something that you did

(01:10:57):
in your past that wound upleading to either some form of a
growth spurt or it otherwisechanged your trajectory.
And it needs to be in your past, because what you're doing
every day, like, hopefullyyou're making moves and trying
different things and whatever,but you never, you don't know
what's going to stick untilenough time has passed that you

(01:11:18):
can actually look back andreflect upon oh my gosh, that
was.
I didn't even expect that thingto be anything.
I didn't even know I was doinga thing and look at what that
wound up being, like that couldbe an example.
What would you think of assome of your power moves in the
concept of creativity?

Pablo (01:11:36):
've thing comes glaringly to mind that has been
significant across many mediumsof creative art that I work in,
and that's learning the toolsthat are available out there.
I mean, actually it's kind offunny in high school I was like
I'll never play an electrifiedinstrument.
I was like that's stupid, Ionly want to play acoustic

(01:11:57):
instruments.
And I hated computers, hatedcomputers, like I was just like
these things are so dumb, likethey don't have the human touch.
But now I'm very, veryobviously very different from
that.
I love computers and I use themall the time, and the biggest
thing that I hadn't reallyrealized is just that I ended up
in my early 20s spending a lotof time trying to learn

(01:12:19):
recording software and it waspro tools and then I ended up
switching to a different one,ableton but it was at a time
when I knew pro tools so well,so I didn't really need to do
that, but I felt creativelystifled within the program and
so I moved to a different one.
And, all that said, I think it'svery important to sort of
explore the tools that are outthere because especially now in

(01:12:41):
2024, like there's so manythings that you can do and
learning them really helps yoube creative, like it really just
does.
When you can just like not haveto think about you know how to
use or manipulate something.
You just you're free to sort ofjust create and and and this
goes for like, for sort ofanything.

(01:13:01):
I mean, if you're you know, ifyou're, if you're trying to
write a book or something likeknowing how to properly use Word
, or even like these new AIapplications, which is a subject
we didn't get into, but it'slike sort of taboo within
creativity, which I don't reallyunderstand why I use AI all the
time and I think it's justanother tool for me to use.

(01:13:22):
It's like I'm not relying.

Alexis (01:13:23):
How do you use AI?
I'm curious, oh my gosh.

Pablo (01:13:27):
I use AI a lot of times when I'm writing.
I'll write what I'm writing andthen if I get stuck someplace
I'll be like you know, read whatI've written and suggest other
things that I could talk about.
You know, it's more of like ait's like a junior producer,
where it like kicks out extraideas.
For me it's almost like thepost-it idea where you put a
bunch of ideas on the board.
It helps add to that which isgreat.

(01:13:48):
And then I use it a lot actuallyin photo and video for
upscaling, touching up images.
It's much quicker, I can letthe thing do the thing while I
work on something else, and mostof the time it's pretty solid.
So to me it's just like havingan extra pair of hands working
on what you're working on.
I don't use it so much likesupplement the creativity.

(01:14:08):
I use it to sort of like be acatalyst.
actually love the call out oftools.
Back in my twenties, when I wasplaying around a lot, I had, at
some point, I think I hadSonar---t his was, like, way old
school, but I had, like, apretty basic setup in in my
apartment at the time, so that Icould like record stuff.

(01:14:31):
I don't have anything like thatright now.
Um, and actually I had gotten abonus and I bought pro tools
and I literally can't frickinguse it right now, like I'm
trying to get MIDI in.
But I I finally made a decisionof um learning tools and now
apparently, by saying it on here, I'm going to actually have to
do it crap.

(01:14:52):
I mean, yeah, there's a learning curve.
It sucks, but it's good.

Alexis (01:14:55):
But I do think one of the things that, especially for
like recording software andbeing able to get access to
sound banks and other thingsthat you can use I think we've
talked about this you personallyare able to produce songs all
by yourself.
You do not need another person.
You can choose to work withanother person as an intentional

(01:15:17):
thing.
But one of the things I knowthat has held me back, I think,
needing to go to someone else toactually figure out how to do
the next steps of that.
So I think that's one of thethings.
But this is more of creativityfor the sake of creativity,
where I don't have anyparticular outcome in mind and
it's just more a matter of Ineed to have the time and

(01:15:38):
dedicate the time to it.
But learning an instrument orany of those types of things,
that definitely falls.
I would say that's notnecessarily a tool, but it's
part of the process.
Necessarily a tool, but it's.

Pablo (01:15:49):
It's part of the process.
I think right.

Alexis (01:15:51):
Yeah, if you can't get to that basic level of
capability, I mean you can dointeresting things, but like it
starts being like is that, isthat actually creative or is
that just like a very poorlyexecuted like, whatever?

Pablo (01:16:05):
Doesn't matter.
This is judgment free zone.

Alexis (01:16:08):
All right, I like it.

Pablo (01:16:08):
One thing I will say about the tools too, because we
talked about music and stuff,which is very niche.
But one thing that I've beenusing as a tool for creativity,
more in a business sort of Iguess communications lane, is
Notion.
I'm obsessed with Notion andit's been very powerful for me

(01:16:30):
Notion I'm obsessed with Notionand it's been very powerful for
me, creative, helping me get mycreative ideas out in a place
that feels creative right.
It's like I go into like aGoogle spreadsheet or I go into
a Google doc or Microsoft docand it just feels so flat.
It doesn't have that that sortof like lively, creative feeling
that I want.
And then when I open Notion, Ifeel like the sky's the limit.

(01:16:51):
I can organize my things in amillion different ways and I can
put cover pictures on thingsand I can put emojis where I
want them and I can makedatabases and like.
It feels so open and free to methat it's helped me creatively,
just from like a productivitystandpoint as well.
So it doesn't have to be toolsthat are like only within the

(01:17:13):
creative space.
It can be other things as well.
That's my point.

Alexis (01:17:19):
.
I don't want this conversationto end, but unfortunately the
clock is telling me we probablyshould.
So, anyway, I want to just saythank you so much for your time
here today.
Of course, so many interestingthings that I want to explore so
much deeper, but I'm so gladthat you spent the time so that
my listeners can hear from youand learn from you.

(01:17:40):
So thank you.

Pablo (01:17:41):
Yeah, of course I had a super good time and, of course,
if anyone has questions, I'm allabout paying it forward because
that's what people did with me.
So if you ever have a questionor you want to learn more or
have you know, you're justcurious you can always DM me at
on Instagram, at PabloSong10,and don't be shy.
I love helping people out withcreativity because I think it's

(01:18:02):
it's the one thing that I cangive back to the world.

Alexis (01:18:06):
Very cool.
Well, playing back what wetalked about today, we had quite
a broad exploration on thetopic of creativity.
Actually, we didn't answer.
Is it a skill?
Is it a habit?
What would you label it as?

Pablo (01:18:21):
It feels like a tool.

Alexis (01:18:30):
Here's what I will call it.
I think it is eventually ahabit, but I think it starts as
a commitment, a commitment tofostering and letting creativity
pop up in your life, and themore and more you can practice
and repeat that, you can turn itinto a habit.
I also agree that there areskills that support the ability
to do it, but I think creativityitself.

(01:18:51):
I'm going to put it in thehabit category.

Pablo (01:18:53):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I think it is a habit, and weestablished that in the
beginning because the main thingabout it is to decouple the art
aspect from the creativityaspect, because that's the
mistake everyone always makesthey just assume that it's art.
Let's just separate thosethings once and for all, right.

Alexis (01:19:10):
All right.
So creativity is a commitmentthat can become a habit.
That's the official word heretoday.
That's right.

Pablo (01:19:20):
You heard it here first.

Alexis (01:19:21):
Yes, you did so.
Anyway, we had a really broaddiscussion around creativity and
we in particular dug into somesteps you can take if you want
to nurture and foster morecreativity in your life.
So hope this was helpful foryou.
Again, my name is Alexis Booth.

(01:19:41):
This is the Breakout Booth.
If you have enjoyed what you'veheard here, please subscribe to
the podcast or you can sign upfor my newsletter over at
breakoutbooth.
com.
Thank you again to PabloSignore for being here as our
resident expert on creativity.

Pablo (01:19:58):
Heck, yeah, let's go.

Alexis (01:20:01):
And if you want to be in touch with him @PabloSong10 on
Insta, you can catch him there.
With that, I hope you have anawesome day.

Pablo (01:20:11):
Thanks, take care y'all.

Alexis (01:20:13):
Woohoo Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Host

Alexis Booth

Popular Podcasts

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}3. Unlock Your Creative Potential (Spoiler: It's a Critical Skill at Work)