4. How to Grow Your Career and Build a Path to Professional Success

Alexis and Sara Shookus, a Director at Google, discuss strategies on how to grow your career and share stories about their journeys.

Alexis begins by describing the three stages of career advancement from a talk she developed while she was still at Google, that went viral internally:

1. Do amazing work
2. Elevate others
3. Make others notice

Sara then joins the discussion, and the two share insights and reflections based on their experiences at Google and beyond - addressing the performance review process, career moves, personal branding, and balancing career aspirations with the demands of motherhood.

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In this episode:

• [2:13] 3 elements for high ratings and promotions
• [3:50] Do Amazing Work
• [7:24] Elevate Everyone
• [12:17] Make Others Notice
• [16:26] Alexis' reflections on guiding others in their career
• [17:53] Sara Shookus: welcome & background
• [22:44] Sara’s reflections on career progression
• [28:25] Does Sara’s experience align with Alexis’ model?
• [36:14] How to make horizontal career moves
• [39:01] Skills people over-index on
• [47:50] Balancing motherhood and career aspirations
• [55:38] “Power Moves” - trajectory changing moves
• [1:04:52] Overarching advice from Sara & Alexis

References:

• Brene Brown: The importance of vulnerability
• Tanya Reilly: GLUE work
• Jenny Wood: Wild Courage
• Eduardo Briceño: How to get better at the things you care about

Share your reactions + ideas for future episodes!

Episode Transcript

Alexis (00:00):
Are you struggling with how to move up in your career?
Stick around and I'll sharewith you what I've told
thousands of people at Googleabout navigating the performance
review process, or, as Googleemployees used to call it, Perf.
Plus, you'll hear what my goodfriend, Sara Shookus, a Director
at Google, has to say aboutgrowing your career.

(00:20):
Hey, I'm Alexis Booth andwelcome to the Breakout Booth.
I was a senior manager atGoogle.
I'm a wife and a mother and Ilearned the hard way If you're
not fired up, you're on hold.
I believe success is closerthan you think.

(00:43):
There's a set of skills andhabits you can grow to unlock
unbelievable outcomes.
In this podcast, we'll explorethem through real talk and bold
conversation, because I want tohelp you break out.
Hello, hello, hello and welcometo the Breakout Booth.

(01:03):
I'm Alexis Booth and today weare going to talk about the ins,
the outs and the roundabouts ofclimbing the career ladder.
This is a topic I have discussedat length over the years on
stages, in roundtablediscussions and in one-on-ones,
coaching reports and mentees,and in fact, the talk I
developed on the topic years agowas really the spark that led

(01:25):
me to create my podcastaltogether, my talk on the
subject had two names" how toPrevail at Perf and how to
Catapult your Career.
It's probably worth calling outup front.
It specifically discussescareer progression, not only in
just the corporate sphere, butspecifically at Google.
Now, I do believe that elementsof the mindset and the approach

(01:48):
could be applied to plenty ofother settings, even if the
specifics don't quite match up.
By the end of my time at Google,I'd shared the talk to well
over 5,000 employees, as it tookon a bit of a life of its own.
In the talk, I dialed in towhat it really takes to get good
performance ratings and to getpromoted as a Googler, boiling

(02:12):
it down to three main thingsNumber one do amazing work.
Number two elevate everyone.
And number three, make othersnotice On face value.
These may seem like obviousthings to you, and I wouldn't be
surprised if your firstreaction is one of irritation or

(02:33):
indignation.
It's why I didn't start withthose words.
I framed up the talk from theget-go with some funny memes
that reminded everyone that weall get incredibly anxious when
it's performance review season.
I literally don't know anyonewho doesn't get at least a
little bit nervous at theprospect of receiving not only

(02:55):
official judgment from your boss, but judgment that affects how
much you'll get paid, whetheryou're going to get promoted or,

(03:15):
in a worst case scenario, ifyou're at risk of getting .
I also included one of myfavorite quotes from Brene
Brown, " fired review process asan opportunity to grow and get
better.
You have to let down your guardand be willing to hear and work
through feedback that can bereally difficult to take in.
So, to get us started ontoday's discussion about

(03:37):
climbing the career ladder, I'mgoing to walk you through the
three stages from my talk andthen we'll bring in my
incredible guest for today, SaraShookus, for a broader
discussion on the topic.
The first of my level-up stages,stage number one, is do amazing

(03:57):
work.
If I were to imagine a personwho does this, it's someone who
repeatedly identifies new anduntapped opportunities to make a
real difference.
Catchphrases that woulddescribe them are things like
someone who is a game changer.
They're innovating or doingthings that disrupt the status

(04:18):
quo in a positive way, and ifthe person is in a senior role,
they're doing this with less andless prompting from their
manager or leadership and, bythe point you are at the
executive level, this is reallysomething you are expected to do
on your own, almostinstinctively.
Generally, the work this personis actually doing falls into

(04:40):
two categories.
They are either unlocking brandnew opportunities for growth
and impact, or they're reducingpain in some way, whether it's
with customers or within thecompany.
In a best-case scenario, theyare helping to make more money
faster, save money or people'stime, or make drastic

(05:00):
improvements in customerexperiences.
Oh, and figuring out a way tomeasure any of these things in a
place where it couldn't be donebefore, that would also qualify
.
Now, a trap that I've seenplenty of people run into when
it comes to this stage ofleveling up is they think their
job is to satisfy the list ofresponsibilities in their job

(05:22):
description, and if they candescribe how they've met each
one of those goals in everysingle bullet, it means they are
rocking it and they're going tosee the big bucks soon.
And while, yes, you do need tomake sure you cover all the
basics in your job, the problemwith this kind of thinking is
that if your actual goal is ahigh rating and, even more so, a

(05:45):
promotion, managing yourself tothose expectations will never
get you those outcomes.
You're focusing on the floor ofwhat is expected in your job
rather than the ceiling, whereyou're pushing the boundaries of
what's possible.
Doing amazing work is all aboutyou finding spaces that are

(06:07):
untapped, taking bold steps noone had even thought to take
before, and solving problems ina way that makes a big
difference for other people.
By its very nature, this isoften work that no one could
have even assigned to you in thefirst place.
Part of what makes it amazingis that you're the first to take
any real action on theopportunity, or you're the first

(06:31):
one to come up with a workablesolution.
Many times, you're the firstperson who even realizes that
there is a problem that needs tobe solved and, whether you like
it or not, ratings are almostalways done on some kind of a
bell curve, and you have to beexceptional, making a bigger

(06:51):
impact than your peers, to makeit to the top.
Now, it doesn't mean you're indirect competition with your
peers.
Everyone has differentstrengths and abilities, but the
highest ratings are awarded topeople who are moving the needle
in some way and maximizingtheir strengths in the context
of their job.

(07:12):
If you're doing amazing work,it means, by its very nature,
you are changing the idea ofwhat it is possible to achieve
in your job, what it is possibleto achieve in your job.
The second of my level up stages, stage number two, is Elevate
Everyone.
This is something you can onlytruly do if you've gotten really

(07:34):
good at number one, meaningyou're already in that place
where you're jumping in to solvecomplex and hairy problems with
novel solutions.
In this stage, you make yoursolutions reusable or repeatable
and you lean in to help yourco-workers and sister teams,
maybe even your customers orpartner companies that you work

(07:57):
with, to use them.
What you're doing in this stageis you're scaling solution's
impact through other people totouch a broader range of
customers and teams, and indoing so, you are ultimately
responsible for leading asweeping wave of improvement and
driving even more value, costsavings or customer satisfaction

(08:21):
, or customer satisfaction.
Now, nailing this stage is notjust about going to your next
team meeting and telling yourco-workers about a cool thing
you did.
It's much bigger than that.
It's proactively reaching outto a teammate, offering up a
specific way you think you canhelp them and then scheduling
time with them to see if theycould apply your solution to

(08:43):
their particular situation.
You might even tag along withthem to help put it in motion
with a customer or a sister teamand when that goes well, it's
going and helping moreco-workers to do the same.
And once you get enoughtraction, you start joining team
meetings across the region thatyou work in and eventually

(09:04):
you're joining global team calls.
As you get feedback onlimitations of your solution,
you continue to improve anditerate on it.
You might even build in someautomation or create some
different flavors that apply tosome different situations.
You're effectively treatingyour solution like it's a
product and your goal is to getmore people using what you

(09:28):
created, not because you'reannoying and you're nagging them
, but because it is a genuinelygreat idea and it makes
everyone's lives better.
The ultimate outcome for thisstage is that your solution gets
enough traction that it becomesknown as a sort of new standard
.
You're effectively defining thebest practice for doing

(09:50):
something important, becauseit's a truly awesome idea and
you've made it easy to use andfollow.
If I were to call out a trap forElevate Everyone, it's that
this is a type of work that doesnot occur to many people to do
in the first place.
Most of the people I managed,including some of the highest

(10:11):
performers, needed prompting tothink about taking this step
with their work andencouragement to take it further
than they were comfortable with.
Naturally, I think there's afew reasons for it.
First off, asserting you have asolution in the first place can
feel a bit braggy.
Plenty of people shy away frommaking bold claims like that.
Secondly, it opens you up tochallenge and criticism.

(10:34):
You might hear a lot of no's orreasons why people feel they
can't use it.
You might also hear that peoplehave a better solution they're
already using, which, by the way, is a great opportunity for you
to look on collaboration andtrying to come up with an even
better solution that integratesboth of your ideas.
And third, bringing this back tothe performance review and the

(10:58):
promo space, the way most of uswere trained to learn and work
is that you do things all byyourself or, you know, maybe you
collaborate on things andco-develop them.
In fact, one of the mostimportant aspects of the
performance process is thatyou're truthful about the things
you yourself did and you're notclaiming other people's work.

(11:20):
But what I'm describing in thisstep is not that.
What I've described here is asituation where not only did you
define a solution, you'reinspiring other people to make
use of it and you're giving themtools, materials and support so
that they can do it reallyeasily.

(11:40):
You've done the heavy liftingfor them, and what this is is
you are taking on a trulymeaningful leadership role.
It's not collaboration, it'snot delegation.
This is building scale throughfollowership and adoption of
your solution.
Now, to be clear, this can feellike an incredibly brave and

(12:03):
courageous act, especially thefirst time you're doing it, but
this is most definitelysomething that you can learn to
do.
I have seen plenty of peoplestep up to the challenge.
The last of the level-up stages,stage number three, is Make
Others Notice.
For most people, this is thehardest step of all and, just as

(12:29):
I talked about in stage numbertwo, you can only make headway
on this one once you've achievedthe prior stages, meaning
you're already doing awesomethings and you're already
sharing the love and makingeveryone else's lives better.
This stage is where you turn upthe dial even more and make
sure that everyone knows aboutit, not only because it reflects

(12:53):
very well on you personally Imean, we're talking about
performance reviews andpromotions but beyond that, this
is the step where you areunlocking the full potential of
your solution for the businessas a whole.
Practically speaking, somethings you can do to make it
happen would be schedule timewith your skip-level boss,

(13:16):
schedule time with their bossand their boss.
I mean, go as high as you cantrying to connect with people
who would actually care aboutthe thing that you have
developed.
Also, connect with seniorleaders in the sister
organizations that you work with, as well as connect with
internal forums and communitiesat your company.
See if you can get a 10-minuteslot at one of those next global

(13:38):
meetings.
But don't just talk inside yourcompany.
Think outside of your company.
Offer to write a blog post orhop on a podcast so you can
share your idea with customersand prospects with an even
broader reach.
Put your name in the hat tospeak at one of your company's
big deal events, like a globaldeveloper summit, or think about

(14:01):
a third-party public conferenceor forum that brings a lot of
people together.
This last stage is really theicing on the cake of you taking
your work to the next level.
It's where you actually use thecalling card that you've
already created in the prior twostages and you are grabbing the
attention of the senior leadersin your org.

(14:23):
It's for awareness as well asto unlock even more opportunity
for impact If you do it well.
This is how you can getyourself advocates and sponsors
that speak on your behalf.
If these are people who areoutside of your org, they're
people you can ask for a letterof support if you're going up

(14:44):
for promotion.
Those are things that can workwonders for you.
It's also possible they mightcasually bring up your name with
your manager or your skipmanager, highlighting you in
extraordinarily powerful ways.
If these are people who are inyour org, they are the ones who
are in those promotion andperformance calibration meetings

(15:08):
.
They're the ones who are goingto speak up and say, oh yeah,
they are doing that work,they're so great All because
they know of the work thatyou're doing.
Now, in case this last stage ismaking you break out into hives.
Now, in case this last stage ismaking you break out into hives
, I do want to assure you prettymuch everyone I have ever

(15:30):
managed and the peers that I'veworked alongside for years all
needed help in this space.
Most of them naturally neverthought about doing this kind of
work, and even the ones who did, they needed coaching and
encouragement and to getsuggestions or introductions to
leaders they'd never met so thatthey could start to make
headway.
And in case it's not clear fromwhat I've described here.
The skills that you need forstage three are entirely

(15:55):
different than what you neededin both stages one and stage two
, but what I would call out asthe biggest trap of this stage
make others notice it is thesame as stage two.
This is probably not somethingthat would even occur to you
unless and until you getprompted to work on this kind of

(16:15):
thing.
Even though the work may bedifferent from what you've done
up until this point, it istotally learnable and doable if
you set your mind to it.
And that is my podcast versionof the three stages of leveling
up, which is adapted from my oldPrevail at Perf talk.
I've still never heard anyoneelse outside of this talk

(16:39):
describe this particular path tohigher ratings and promotion,
and I wanted to share it withyou because I got so much
positive feedback from otherpeople who felt that I had
really demystified what itreally took to climb the ladder,
at least within the walls ofGoogle.
But even if you don't work intech, I would argue that much of

(17:01):
what is in here could help youmake an even bigger impact.
In whatever kind of job or workyou do, I believe you have way
more agency than you think youdo to take your career into your
own hands and fast-track a highrating or a promotion.
If that's what you want to do,and if you do decide that

(17:23):
climbing the ladder is your goal, then hopefully this talk has
given you a boost of confidencethat, yes, you can put on your
big curl pants or whateverarticle of clothing you want to
go with and you can make movestoward that goal.
Not only that hopefully I'vegiven you some insight into

(17:45):
different types of moves thatyou could think about making
that will actually help youlevel up.
And with that and with that, Iwould love to welcome to the mic
someone who I have known for avery long time, Sara Shookus.
She is a director at Google,and not only has she helped
other people move up in theircareer as a coach and as a

(18:07):
manager, but she has beentremendously successful in
climbing the ladder herself.
Welcome, Sara Shookus.

Sara (18:15):
Yay, thank you for having me, Alexis.
I'm so happy to be here.

Alexis (18:20):
I am so happy that you are here, yay.

Sara (18:23):
I mean, I've always known this about you, but you have
like the perfect podcast voice.

Alexis (18:27):
Ooh, thank you.
You do you really do?
I appreciate that.
It's very funny because Iremember this was one of my jobs
when I was still living in NewYork, and it's funny this
actually came from a fellowMidwesterner, I think it was
even someone from Wisconsin, andshe made fun of my accent.
I mean, I have a little bit ofa Midwest accent, I'm from

(18:49):
Chicago, right, but anyway, Ijust never thought of myself as
someone who could actuallyreally be a public speaker after
I heard that.
It was just something thatstuck really in a weird way.

Sara (19:02):
No, your voice is very smooth.
It's great.

Alexis (19:05):
Well, thank you so much, and thank you so much for
joining me on this episode.
It's awesome to have you heretoday For our listeners.
I would love to give a littlebit of a background on Sara so
you know more about her.
Generally speaking, Sara is ano-nonsense badass.
She's super, super smart andreally sharp as well.

(19:29):
I just remember from workingwith you for a long time you
were always the person who'sgetting pulled in to do like the
big, big, crazy projects andstuff, and I know so many people
who look up to you, myselfincluded.
Sara is a director at Google,where she has worked for over 11
years now.
You've been in Google Cloud forthe last eight and a half.

(19:51):
That's where we met.
You'd also been in the ad sideof the business before that and
done some other work previously,but I feel like we've been
kindred spirits in a lot of ways.
The first time we reallystarted working together was
when we were assigned to own theDEI projects in our org
obviously, you know, with Divya,so the three women who are

(20:13):
actually in the org got to do itand, by the way, this is also,
of course, a hot topic thesedays but we actually wound up
co-founding a little mini ERGfor our org.
We've watched each other climbthe ladder and we've gotten to
see each other become momsseveral times over, which is
cool.
Anyway, it's always such apleasure whenever I get to

(20:36):
connect with you.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share with
listeners about you?
Work, personal, otherwise.

Sara (20:43):
Well, yeah, I mean, I feel like a majority of my career
has been at Google, so I thinkyou've hit on that well.
Outside of work, I am spendinga lot of time with two little
ones, a four-year-old and an18-month-old.
That take up all the remainingtime I have, but I also am a big
runner and I paint a lot.

(21:05):
That's my fun fact that Irealized nobody really knows
this about me.
I'm I'm a painter and I like topaint all the surfaces in my
house as much as I can.
I haven't yeah, I haven'ttackled this room yet, but maybe
someday.

Alexis (21:19):
So so like like you paint the walls, do you paint
like paintings?

Sara (21:23):
I've done like pseudo murals but also just kind of
like abstract designs, so like Icome up with a design and it's
almost like wallpaper, but it's,it's, it's painted.
So super cool, like stamps andstuff, or like I don't actually
use stamps, I do it all freehand, but that's what it tends to
end up looking like.

(21:43):
Yeah, that's so cool, I knowit's.
It's like I realize peopledon't realize we all have these
bizarre little things we dooutside of work and you just
tend to not end up sharing them.
So yeah, I was mentioning it topeople recently and they were
like what?

Alexis (21:58):
yeah, a kind of funny thing about me that no one
really knows is I.
I guess I haven't done this ina long time, but I'm a quilter.
My mom got me into quilting.
I actually made my first quilt.
Uh, it would have been I thinkit was like the the summer
before my my freshman year ofcollege and I actually made a
bedspread for for my college bed.
That was kind of fun amazing.

Sara (22:20):
I love that.

Alexis (22:22):
I haven't.
It takes too much time, though,and, like the whole setup is a
lot, I haven't done it in awhile, but anyway, thank you for
sharing that.
That's beautiful.
I opened up with a version ofmy Prevail at Perth talk that
I'd created several years ago.

(22:51):
Any reflections, either on thetalk or, just as you're coming
into this episode, what's top ofmind for you?

Sara (22:58):
Yes, first can I just say your talk was amazing.
I remember when you first didit at Google and you know
there's so much we used to callit perf, we now call it grad at
Google, but there's so muchcollateral around the process
and the timelines and you knowthe specific step-by-step ways
to do things and I think whatmade Preval at Perf so amazing

(23:19):
was that it just kind of cutthrough it all and it was really
, you know, real talk about thetopic, which is frankly what
people really need.
I mean, yes, you can followthis step by step and that's
great too, but you kind of wantto know the nitty gritty of it
and what's really going tomatter.
So I've always loved it.
I'm glad to see it resurrectedand to chat about it more today.

(23:41):
Truthfully, it all aligns withmy experience.
A lot of things I was thinkingabout, just you completely
nailed it and, if anything, youknow, as you were saying this,
all I was reflecting a bit on,just you know, working at Google
.
I honestly feel fortunate thatsome of the things you're
outlining are accepted and,frankly, encouraged at Google.

(24:01):
You know, like going above andbeyond your role and seeking out
areas that, as you said, areuntapped or have yet to kind of
be conquered.
It's really part of the DNA ofGoogle, and so I, like I've
worked elsewhere where that'sjust not really the case.
You know you kind of need tostick to what you're expected to
do, you need to do a reallygood job, but no one's really
looking for you to go above andbeyond and create Gmail like

(24:25):
people did back in the day.
So I think that's just amazingthat we've had that experience
to even approach this topic thatway.
But it all certainly resonateswith me, and I think there's a
lot of little tidbits there thatI'm sure we'll talk about more.

Alexis (24:40):
Yeah, actually, just to share with listeners, in case
you didn't know, gmail was notan assignmentmail.
Happened because there were abunch of people who were hanging
out in the micro kitchens andthe google offices.
This is like part of why googlereally has always wanted to
sponsor and encourage and payfor people's food and meals is

(25:03):
because all of this spontaneouskind of conversation and
different ideas come together.
There's a lot of other thingsthat I think in the DNA that all
come together, but you know,literally no one told anyone to
do it.
It was someone saying like hey,let's try this thing, like we
don't, we don't like Yahoo Mailenough, like we can do it better
, which I think, which is kindof what I was trying to get at

(25:24):
in the in the talk.
But, thank you, I appreciatethat Well.
So, Sara, since you're actuallystill at Google I'm not Could
you do us the honors of sharingwith our listeners what PERF is
and what GRAD is?
I think I actually outlinedboth of them up front in my
lead-in.

Sara (25:42):
Yeah, sure, I'm sure GRAD is an acronym for something that
I should know, and I don't knowit off the top of my head.
But you know, at a very highlevel, it's the formal
performance management processthat Google leverages.
So it's the process by which weregularly have check-ins

(26:02):
between managers and theirdirect reports to look at
various different expectationsthat are aligned to both their
role as well as their levelwithin the company.
And you know talk about how arewe tracking?
Are you meeting thoseexpectations?
Is there more you could bedoing?
Is there tweaks on thebehaviors that you're exhibiting
?
We do that throughout the yearand then ultimately culminates

(26:25):
in a final performance rating,which is then directly
correlated to your compensation.
So you may or may not begetting a raise, some additional
equity or a bonus, and so allthose things are kind of tied
together, I guess if I were todescribe PERF and GRAD in the
smallest terms possible.

Alexis (26:47):
Perf is literally short for the performance review
process, and there was a link goslash perf that you went into.
It was actually a tool.
It was colloquially known likethe process and the tool
actually kind of buried it was.
It was replaced in 2022, Ithink, by GRAD, which stands for

(27:09):
Googler Reviews and Development.
That is what Google told me.

Sara (27:14):
There you go.

Alexis (27:14):
Even as an outsider no longer at the company I can find
these things out.
It's amazing.
I think the biggest things werereally.
Perf was twice a year.
Grad is now once a year,although there are quarterly
check-ins that you have withyour manager.
So the big formal process isonly happening once a year.
Grad is now once a year,although there are quarterly
check-ins that you have withyour manager.
So it's the big formal processis only happening once a year,
and it's all about.
It's the performance reviewprocess.

(27:35):
It's a formal process that goesthrough leadership and
everything to get blessed, whichalso is interesting, because in
many different corporations andcompanies, they've actually
even done away with performancereviews entirely, where they
only have real-time promotions,which is a whole topic of its
own as to is that good, Is thatnot good?

(27:57):
I was not the decision maker onany of these things.

Sara (28:02):
It's timely as we are rounding out the grad process
now in the next few weeks.
And you know it's a very ittakes a lot of time, it's a time
consuming process for everybodybut, I think, ultimately a
valuable one.

Alexis (28:18):
It sounds like your experience at Google did align
with.
You know, generally, the thingsthat I was talking about.
How about as a manager or whereyou have been acting as a coach
or a mentor to other folks?
Have you found this to also beuseful or aligned with those
types of conversations?

Sara (28:38):
Totally.
I think you know a few of thethings that you mentioned the
stages, particularly aroundbeing proactive and identifying
untapped areas.
I mean that's like a regulartheme that I feel like I'm
discussing with people.
I think when it comes tocoaching and mentoring folks,
there also tends to be a lotmore.

(29:00):
Frankly, there's just even alot of like pep talk.
There's a lot of pep talks, youknow, just getting people to
see themselves in a differentlight.
People tend to be their ownworst enemy or their own worst
critics, so there's a fairamount of that as well.
But I think really helpingpeople identify what those
opportunities are, even just,you know, bringing the idea to

(29:23):
the forefront but thenultimately helping them to
figure out what thoseopportunities can be is
something that I spend a lot oftime on with folks.
So, and it brings me a lot ofjoy.
To be honest, it's awesome whenyou get to kind of line someone
up with something that's likenew and exciting and shiny and
hopefully aligned to whatthey're good at as well.

(29:43):
I love when that happens.

Alexis (29:46):
So yeah, that was definitely one of the best parts
of being a manager.
It was surprising to me howmuch this talk also not only
that more people wanted to hearit and it seemed to ring true
with them, but also how much joyI got out of it.
Literally, I said up front thisis one of the reasons I

(30:09):
actually started the podcast.
This was like one of thosemoments where I really dug in,
instead of talking about whateveryone else has already said.
It was well, what do I actuallythink?
And it was a fun process to diginto that, actually decide what
I thought and then put ittogether and see what people
reacted with so.

Sara (30:30):
Well, you know, the other thing is you forget.
I mean I forget what thatprocess was like as an IC, to be
honest, because once you're onthe other side, you very quickly
, like I said, you just youstart to forget what it was like
and how frankly hidden a lot ofthe elements of that process
are and unknown.
And so that's why, when I saidyour talk, what I loved about

(30:51):
your talk was how real talk itwas, because I think it just
helps people kind of peek behindthe curtain ever so slightly
and feel like they're gettingjust a little bit more behind
the scenes, and I think that'ssuper helpful.
Makes it a little less scarytoo, you know.

Alexis (31:08):
Yeah Well, thank you.
It's definitely funny comingback to it now.
I figured out.
I think it was five years ago Iactually first gave it and I
kind of put it on the backburner because grad came along
and replaced perf.
The other thing about perf wasyou actually wrote your own
review.
You articulated what youraccomplishments are in grad.

(31:29):
You're doing that throughoutthe course of the year, but at
the end of the year your manageractually pulls it together on
your behalf and is speaking foryou.
And those quarterly check-insthey're not happening
specifically on a date.
They can be much more flexible.
There wasn't the same kind ofcompelling event, I guess, to

(31:51):
bring it together.
But do you think that there isanything that you've experienced
or that you've coached otherpeople on that you think it's
missing?
I mean, obviously it's onlytalking about three things.
It's not covering everything.
What are some of the mostvaluable things that you've come
across?

Sara (32:07):
It's not covering everything.
What are some of the mostvaluable things that you've come
across?
Yeah, I think the biggest onethat I tend to see is conflating
career progression andpromotion.
I mean, those two things can beone and the same, but a lot of
times they are not necessarily.
And specifically at Google andI know we're focusing more on
Google for this you know, atGoogle those are usually two

(32:28):
different things.
So the promotion is kind of onone track where you are up
leveled to a new HR level, ifyou will, that comes with, you
know, likely additional pay andother compensation benefits.
There are other ways to pursuecareer progression that do not
necessarily directly tie to apromotion, and so I think one

(32:51):
thing I get I hear a lot isthere's no opportunity for
career development, especiallyin this current climate.
Right, like there's not a lotof net new headcount, there's
not a lot of more senior roles,and so you get a lot of you know
there's not, there's no careerdevelopment opportunities.
Like I feel like I'm kind ofstagnant and what people are

(33:11):
really saying is I'm not gettingpromoted.
The truth is there are alwaysthese career progression and
career development opportunities.
You just have to, first of all,you have to expand your
aperture a little bit and likewhat?
What do you consider to be acareer progression opportunity,
which for me would be developinga new skill or working with a
new team or starting up a newbig hairy project or whatever,

(33:33):
any of those sorts of things.
And you have to be willing togo and look at those as
opportunities as well, even whenthese opportunities for direct
increase to your salary are notas readily available.
So I think and I get it, Ilisten, it's hard.
I mean people don't want tohear it right, like they'd just
rather be promoted and get thenew opportunity.

(33:55):
But I think you have to lookfor, you have to look for the
silver lining and what you canmake happen given the many other
constraints and the climate andall the other things at play.
So that's one that I try tofind the right way to get people
to see that.
And again, it doesn't land foreverybody.
I think sometimes folks get ina very like tunnel vision

(34:19):
mindset when it comes topromotion.
But that's certainly somethingI hear a lot and talk about a
lot, you know.
The other thing just generallyabout career progression is it's
not always like a straight lineup, and I think you mentioned
this a little bit, but it's inGoogle especially and having
been at Google for a long time,I say this all the time to folks

(34:40):
is Google's about.
I don't even know at this point,15 companies inside of Alphabet
, probably more, I don't know, Ican't keep track of them.
But there are a lot ofdifferent business areas that
you can potentially be a part of.
I'm not saying it's easy rightto go jump to a different part,
but there are a lot of differentareas within the business that

(35:02):
you can pursue completelydifferent domains, completely
new skills, completely newnetworks, and so I really think
horizontal, if you will, movesinto different teams, different
departments, are certainlyanother way of advancing your
career, and I also feel likethere are just moments where

(35:22):
you're not going to necessarily.
You know where things mightjust be, kind of you know,
steady state and that's okay too, like not everything needs to
be full steam ahead straight upthe mountain.
I think there are moments whereyou know your personal life
certainly plays a factor and youhave to balance it all.
So I think those are, you know,a couple of the things that I'd

(35:42):
mention.

Alexis (35:43):
I love what you're talking about there, Sara,
because even as we're talkingabout the name of this episode
of climbing the career ladder,that does imply upward motion,
and I know both of us have takensteps at some point in our
careers where it's either alateral move or it's a move into

(36:03):
an entirely different domain.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you came to the decision?
I know of several obvious ones,but there's probably some
smaller ones.
How did you decide to makethose different moves?
Did they come to you?
Did you chase them?

Sara (36:20):
Yeah, I think probably depends on the time in life and
the particular move.
But I will say, when I've lookedat my career, I've never been
someone that knew exactly what Iwanted to do, and so instead
I've approached it more, as youknow, kind of like checking
boxes of different experiences,and I say that of course, now

(36:43):
I've been in cloud for eightyears, though I will say I've
had many different experiencessince being here.
But so that's kind of how Iapproach things, and it was
really more about finding, youknow, certainly finding things
that I didn't enjoy in eachexperience, but then always
finding, like, at least one ortwo things that I really did and

(37:05):
wanting to carry those forwardas much as possible, and knowing
that there would be you knowtwo things that I really did and
wanting to carry those forwardas much as possible and knowing
that there would be, you know,other things that would come
that I may or may not like aswell.
So for me, you know, I thinktotally in the spirit of this
podcast is it's it's veryexploratory.
I've always wished, I've alwaysprayed and wished that I was
someone that knew exactly what Iwanted to do my whole life.

(37:25):
I envy those people so much,but that, unfortunately, is just
not me.
I'm a little bit more.
Fly by the seat of your pants,take opportunities that come to
you.

Alexis (37:35):
That's interesting to even hear, because I actually
don't wish I was someone whoknew my every step, and while
it's painful or irritating or Imean there's all sorts of messy
emotions that can come with theexploration but ultimately I get
bored when I'm doing the samething all the time and I feel

(37:58):
like if I had a plan that was infront of me that I knew what my
life was supposed to look like,I would come to hate it.
In fact, I remember peopletalking about like hey, what's
your five-year plan?
Have you thought about your 10,15-year plan?
No, and sure I mean you canargue that there is certainly
missed opportunity in this too.

(38:19):
People who are actually goingafter very big things and
signing up for many years ofschooling or whatever it takes
to get there.
They are doing these amazingthings and, yes, it will take
many, many years to get there,but I would rather be on the
journey.
I actually love spontaneity andI don't love discomfort, but I

(38:44):
do love the ability to reflecton the ebbs and flows and the
unexpecteds.
But I feel like that's a lot ofwhat I've been trying to get
more comfortable with in myselfis being flexible, being open to
different things that wouldnever have occurred to me.
Coming back to really thinkingabout, I guess, the performance

(39:05):
review process or careerprogression and growth in
general, are there any skillsthat you have seen people over
index on, or that you can thinkof there being too much of a
good thing that you see in otherpeople?

Sara (39:19):
Yes, the number one for me is focusing on the what without
understanding the why.
And at a place like Google,where everybody I mean I won't
generalize, but let's be realeverybody is like overachievers
and type A and, just like youknow, get their to-do list done

(39:41):
every single day, I think peoplejust churn work out you know,
and it's amazing.
It's amazing to see what peoplecan get done.
But you realize, you knowyou're talking to someone about
what they're working on andyou're like what's it like?
What are we trying toaccomplish here?
What's the goal?
Or how does this tie back toour organization's broader

(40:05):
strategy and priorities?
This tie back to ourorganization's broader strategy
and priorities?
And then you kind of you get ablank stare because you know so
much of the focus just ends upbeing on like I did this work
right and it was great, and so Ithink that's a really big thing
.
You know, when you're starting anew project or working with a
new team or a new manager, Ithink starting with you know the

(40:28):
goals, the why you're there,the why you're focused on
whatever it is you're focused onis really important.
And if you don't get it, likekeep asking questions until you
get it.
That's the other thing is, youknow people are like, oh sure,
that makes sense.
And then it's like wait, Ireally I'm, you'm.
You know, now two months intoworking on this project and I

(40:48):
realized I don't actuallyunderstand why we started it.
So I definitely think that's abig one, that's certainly a big,
you know, um, when it comes tograd, when it comes to perf it's
all that you've heard perfodder, right, all the things
you get to write in yourassessment because you did all
of these activities but really,really focusing on why you're
doing them and then what is theoutcomes that you're actually

(41:11):
driving from doing them is whatultimately matters.

Alexis (41:16):
Yeah, I'm hearing that as a lack of critical thinking
skills.
Ultimately and in fact this iseven one of the things that
Google hires for in the hiringprocess it's GCA general
cognitive ability where thefirst thing that you actually
measure is what is the problemthat we are trying to solve?
There's actually even asecondary one in it, too, which

(41:36):
is should we be solving thisproblem at all?
That I actually found a lot ofpeople who were always
constantly busy because they hadI'm going to use a lot of
irritating phrases for people,but I can't help but do it.
They'd have all this bias toaction, so they'd jump in oh
there's a problem I need tosolve, but it's like a thousand

(41:58):
dollar problem instead of amillion dollar problem, and they
just kept on going after thesesmall bits and, at the end of
the day, no one cares whatyou're doing.
And I love that you have allthis creativity and you want to
do things, but there was thismissing link there that I
definitely hear what you'retalking about with that.

Sara (42:17):
Yeah, and people see it.
You know it's pretty, it'spretty easy to spot, to be
honest.
So, yeah, and I think the otherone I would say is this is also
one of your stages, but I thinkyou have to be careful with it
is over advertising the greatwork you're doing yeah, which,

(42:42):
if you're doing great work anddriving great results, shouldn't
be very hard, to be honest.
But I've certainly seen folkstooting their own horn nonstop
and it starts to rub people thewrong way.

Alexis (42:55):
Oh, totally.

Sara (42:56):
So there's a balance there .

Alexis (42:58):
There are people you don't even want to work with.

Sara (43:00):
They're like ugh Right right, you know when that email
comes out.
That launch email comes outfrom the same.

Alexis (43:08):
You're like, oh my God, not again.
Yeah, one of the things that Ihave come across from there's
actually two people who havebeen talking about this.
It's not quite the same, butit's kind of the same is glue
work, which if you haven't heardit, I will walk you through it.
Or nap work work, which, if youhaven't heard it, I will walk

(43:29):
you through it.
Or NAP work.
Nap is actually the easier oneto talk about.
It's not actually promotablework.
Jenny Wood, who recently leftGoogle she actually has a book
coming out, I think it's calledlike Wild Courage, but she was
talking about this and TanyaRiley she's a principal engineer
, so she's very technical.
She has a blog article about it.
I'll add it to the show notes,but she talks about this thing

(43:51):
of being glue and ultimately, Ithink what both of them are
talking about is really the samekind of thing.
Women in particular, I think,have a higher propensity to do
this kind of stuff, but it's notjust women.
We are generally, I think,socialized to do this kind of
stuff from a young age, but it'sbasically we bring people

(44:11):
together, we help all the peoplealign.
We're like the ones making allthese shared solutions.
We're the ones who arecultivating collaboration.
Solutions were the ones who arecultivating collaboration, and
we even help make these bigdisagreements.
No, no, let's all get on thesame page.
Okay, cool, we make it happen,and then someone else is writing

(44:32):
the code or writing thetemplates and the scripts and
all the stuff.
That's the actual promotablework.
No one officially cares thatyou, especially as an IC, went
and did all of that really hardwork to actually make people
work better together.
That's actually manager work.
It's also even not work thatmanagers are really even truly,

(44:56):
truly measured by in manyregards, because the actual
thing that you would be talkingabout it is work, productivity.
So, yes, those are metrics, butultimately it would be tenure
on your team.
Do you foster a greatenvironment where people want to
work?
And especially with turnoverand all of the org changes and
stuff, you can't even measure it.

(45:17):
I'd also say, in the climatewe're in right now, I don't know
that tenure or preventingattrition I don't think is
actually a thing that is a topline HR goal.
Right now, there is stillregrettable attrition, but at
the end of the day, when there'stough business climate, it's

(45:38):
also less regrettable than itwould have been a couple years
ago.

Sara (45:42):
I would challenge that a little bit because I feel, like
now at Google, the climate thatwe're in, everything requires
about no less than 20 people toget it done, and so the role
that you're talking about, theperson, that kind of pieces
together everybody is the glue.
You know ultimately what thatis and how you articulate that

(46:02):
is, they're leading the project.
Yeah, more or less.
I mean, of course it's contextspecific, but to your point
where it ends up being a woman.
Often we have to find the rightway to articulate that so it
gets the credit that it deserves, because it is incredibly
important.

Alexis (46:21):
So valuable point.
I would actually say TanyaRiley, coming from an
engineering background, thestory she's talking about, that
is a reality.
Engineers get promoted based onlines of code and launches and
all of those types of things.
So if you're spending your timedoing that, you're making less
time to do the other stuff.
I would agree that actually, aprogram manager would have

(46:43):
responsibility for that, orthere may be other roles where
that kind of stuff does matter,but I also do think that there
are a lot of people who are inthose positions who then
delegate the act of writing thestuff and they're effectively
acting as a director, especiallythere.
It would always irritate me whenICs would be doing this

(47:05):
directing and it was like whatare you actually adding to this?
So I do think that there,somewhere in there is you need
to be actively contributing tothe work products.
Yes, making the things cometogether, but what are the
deliverables that you have in it?
Again, this is very, veryGoogle-centric, but at the end

(47:26):
of the day, I do think thatbeing able to point to the
things that you created, inaddition to making the outcomes
happen, both of those are veryimportant things, I would agree.
So one of the things that Iknow has led to a lot of changes
in my life and the things thatI want to do with my time is

(47:48):
becoming a mom.
How have you balancedmotherhood with your career
aspirations, and is balance eventhe right word to be using here
?

Sara (47:58):
It's such a good question.
Well, I think the first thing Iwould say is and you and I have
actually we've also shared alot with each other about
infertility and the process toeven get to this point.
So, you know, I think every dayI first am like I just feel
lucky to be having to strikethis balance.

(48:20):
I feel lucky to have kids, youknow.
So it's really changed myperspective at work.
I'm not sure it changed myperspective as much after the
first one, I think I still.
I still was not ready yet, butwith the second one I came back
feeling really differently and Ikind of kept telling myself

(48:41):
over and over and over again,and this may not even sound good
, but I kept telling myself tojust not take myself so
seriously, for me, anyway, I'dget in meetings or I'd produce
something.
And then you turn around andyou're like, oh, I shouldn't
have said that one word, Ishould have, you know, reframed
that one sentence on the slideand whatever.

(49:02):
And you kind of pick apartthings and I, I really would
take moments to step outside ofmyself and be like no one else
on this call is thinking that Iis even thinking about me.
Frankly, you know, like, firstof all, start with the fact that
everybody's pretty darn selfishand self-centered and they're
mostly only thinking aboutthemselves.
Then, when you put that asidein the you know 5% of their

(49:24):
brain space that they give toyou, they're really not thinking
about all the mistakes you made.
And so I think you know, like Isaid, I think becoming a mother
has really given me a differentperspective.
That's helped me approach workin a much healthier way.
There's definitely ups and downs.
I do feel like balance is theright word.
I don't know, I know peopleprobably argue about that, but I

(49:46):
think it is the right word.
I've certainly had ups anddowns and you know moments where
it's the work is overwhelmingor the personal life is
overwhelming and you can'treally find how to get the two
to marry out.
So I think I've really focusedon my partnership with my
husband.
I mean, that's that's superimportant.

(50:06):
Again, I'm, I'm lucky to havethat partnership and I hear my
friends a group of friends wetalk all the time.
They work, many of them work atGoogle and you know, I hear
them complaining a lot about howwe have to do it all and I'm
and I'm like I don't.
I don't actually agree, andI've kind of given up on that
because I'm just like, first ofall, my husband needs to do a

(50:28):
lot of it and then, second ofall, no one's going to do all of
it, just period, like we're notgoing to have the children in
perfect outfits every day, forthat's not me anyway.
But you know, we're just, we'renot going to hit certain,
certain expectations and I don'treally care.
Yeah, so I think thepartnership with my husband's
been super important.
I also think, you know, makingtime for myself.

(50:51):
I also feel like I've talked toa lot of moms that have a hard
time working, moms that have ahard time getting babysitters or
going away, and I, and first ofall, there's there are hormonal
things there, there's a lot ofthings at play and I certainly
don't mean to overlook that.
But I think really givingyourself space to have a career,

(51:13):
have a family, but also do someother things, you know, once in
a while, that give you yourpeace of mind, you know, give
you a moment to kind of like bea human that doesn't have all
these other responsibilities, soso that's been a big thing for
me and I don't feel bad about iteither.
I certainly feel bad aboutcertain things sometimes, but

(51:34):
but you know, like giving myselftime to go play tennis or have
dinner with my friends is veryimportant to me, you know.
And then of course, there'sjust like setting boundaries,
and I think you know, again,we're fortunate or you were
fortunate I still am to be atGoogle, where setting boundaries
is again encouraged.
It's, it is part of the cultureand the norms and so people are

(51:58):
like you know, you know, at 530, that's roughly when I'm not
really going to take moremeetings and do more work, and I
try to be thoughtful about that, also thoughtful about the way
I interact with my team, so thatI'm not setting examples that I
don't want them to go then feellike are the norm.

(52:20):
So there's a lot of differentthings here.
It's certainly notstraightforward and it also,
again, the balance changes everyday.

Alexis (52:29):
Yeah, I know, for me, when I came back after having my
first kid, it was really hardand I really struggled with that
transition.
When I went out to have mysecond, I actually thought I
might stop, like I might pause,or I might really step back.

(52:49):
When I came back, but Iremember actually I was working
for Patrick at this point he waslike no, no, no, no, no, just
do the time, like see whathappens, see how you're feeling.
And when I came back, Iactually was so excited to jump
back in.
Actually, the talk wassomething that I did.
I wrote it in my first monthbeing back from my second

(53:11):
maternity leave because Iactually had the space to do it
and I was super excited.
After that, that was when Ijumped in and took over
financial services for PSO.
After that, that was when Ijumped in and took over
financial services for PSO and,of course, covid hit.
You know there's all these otherthings that start coming into
play with all of that, but Iwould also say that I had not

(53:33):
expected that at all.
I was surprised by myself andwhat it was that I wanted to do
next, which was reallyinteresting.

Sara (53:39):
I also.
This may be strange, but I alsofeel and I've talked about this
in therapy and some I don'tknow, maybe it's something I
need to work through, but it'slike I kind of feel like I have
two identities, a little bitright Too.
Like I have, I have thisworking identity and people ask
questions about my kids orthey're like, oh, you're really
in it, and I'm like, well, yeah,I'm in it, but like right now

(54:00):
I'm at work.
So that's, that's different,that's separate you know Right.
Yeah, and then I have like the,the personal life identity and
it's so funny because I have somany.
Frankly, half the time I thinkI have more stressors in the
personal life side and not evenbecause of the kids.
There's social stuff and I don'tknow whatever.
Like, my house is a mess andI've got to paint another room

(54:23):
because I just love painting somuch.
But anyway, I feel like I'vegotten very good at
compartmentalizing.
Where it's really, like youknow, I can focus on the work.
And again there's days wherethat's not the case and
someone's sick and blah, blah,blah, but really trying to keep
the two separate to some extent.
Again, maybe that's not healthy, but I feel like it's worked

(54:44):
well for me.

Alexis (54:46):
There's a lot of people who've talked about that
separation, even actually havingmultiple identities, even
beyond that of when you're withcertain groups of people, you're
one way, when you're with othergroups, and I can definitely
relate to that very much when Iwas in work mode.
I was in work mode and in factI remember my husband would come

(55:06):
to ask me a question or I'd getlike I never checked my phone
during working hours becausethat was just like not it, and
he'd get so mad that he's like Isent you this text and I'm like
, yeah, I haven't looked at myphone, like no.
Or he'd like jump in the roomto ask me some question and I
just was not in the state ofmind to be able to answer and

(55:28):
talk with him.

Sara (55:29):
Yeah, it's Google Chat nine to five.
I mean, that's really you needto ping me or you're not really
getting a response.

Alexis (55:35):
So intense.
Yeah, on a bit of a differenttack here, one of the things
that I've been playing aroundwith in this podcast that I
don't know.
I think it's a cool idea.
We'll see if it really goesanywhere but is this concept of
power moves?
So it's a thing that you did inyour past that ultimately
changed the trajectory thatyou're on.

(55:56):
A key part of it is it actuallyhas to be in the past, because,
even though you're doing thingsall the time and making moves
in different ways, you neverknow which ones are actually
going to produce those like bigchange outcomes.
Coming back to thinking aboutsort of your career, can you
think of a power move that youhave made that was really

(56:18):
important in bringing you to theplace where you are today?

Sara (56:21):
I actually have a question for you first.
Sure, when you think aboutpower moves, are they always
intentional?
I'll tell you one.

Alexis (56:29):
Well, I guess this is not necessarily a direct one.
One of mine that I think aboutin the career space was I
actually applied to become amanager.
So I guess there.
But the reason that I appliedwasn't actually because that I
was really really ready to be amanager.
But the reason that I appliedwasn't actually because that I
was really really ready to be amanager.
It was that we were living inCalifornia and I wanted to go
back to Chicago and it was goingto pay for that.
So the primary thing that Iactually wanted out of it wasn't

(56:52):
even the promotion.
I was actually kind of scared,swearless, that what I was going
to need to do as a manager,because I knew I had all these
gaps.
But actually the thing thatlike pushed me over the line
wasn't about being a manager.
It was like I want to go home,got it.
I'd also say that, yeah,conditions changing around you

(57:12):
certainly could.
There's probably plenty ofthings that like, because of
covid, because a parent,something happens to a parent or
a kid, actually I I would saythat I there's things that I
wound up changing because offamily situations for sure.
So, yes, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be because you actively
chose it.

Sara (57:31):
Okay, a power move that I've made, so I think a very
clear one for me was that I knew.
So, again, I talked aboutearlier that I've kind of
approached my career as seekingout new experiences, almost like
a checklist of like okay, I'vedone that, let's move on to, you
know, some different skill.

(57:52):
The one skill I had been verycurious about and thinking I
really wanted to pursue waspeople management.
And when I left Accenture I wasabout to be a manager.
But I made the decision to cometo Google anyway, knowing that
I wouldn't have that immediateopportunity to manage any team.

(58:12):
But from the beginning, when Ijoined Google, I did
intentionally vocalize my goalto be a people manager.
So you know, it wasn'tsomething that was part of every
single one-on-one and every youknow weekly conversation I had,
but it was something that I wasvery intentional about making

(58:32):
sure my managers understood itwas a career goal for me and
ultimately when I joined, cloudstill hadn't happened.
You know I was still trying tomake it happen.
But when I joined cloud Isimilarly vocalized that as a
goal and it got to the pointwhere I at that point I wanted
it so bad that I started lookingat other manager roles as well.

(58:52):
I actually was a, was afinalist for a this is so funny
to say out loud now to me but Iwas a finalist for a sales
manager role, which I'm like Icould never imagine myself.
I never knew this about you,Sara.
Yeah yeah, it was back when wehad ISRs, I don't know, inside
sales, yeah Right, and the rolewas in Austin, so we were going

(59:16):
to move.
I ultimately didn't get it, butthe thing was, I think and my
manager knew I was applying tothat other role- was this when
you were working with Dennis yes, yeah, and he knew I was
applying to that role and heprobably got a little scared.
So ultimately the timing endedup working out.

(59:37):
I didn't get that role butwithin a week or two I was
starting to interview for amanager role on his team and I
ultimately got that one.
So I don't know that I, youknow, brought that opportunity
to fruition totally, but Idefinitely was very intentional
about that being a goal and Ithink I would consider that a

(59:57):
power move, you know.

Alexis (59:59):
Totally.
I would also knowing what Iknow now about how all of those
things happened.
I imagine that Dennis probablywound up having conversations
with Patrick and otherleadership to actually say whoa,
whoa, whoa, wait, we are atrisk of losing this amazing
person.
What can we do?
Because the creation of a rolelike that does not come out of

(01:00:21):
nowhere.
So I actually imagine that thefact that you were getting so
far in that you, I mean, I don'tknow, I was not in the middle
of any of the situation inparticular, but it certainly
couldn't have hurt your chancesto actually wind up with a
manager role there.
I think this is one of thosethings where I think, especially

(01:00:42):
when we're trying so hard or wewant things so hard, we don't
always push and almost press fornegotiation or like really
clear cut stuff that we want,and sometimes the risk of
walking away can actually openup new opportunities.
For sure.
I would call that a power move,and I totally had no idea that

(01:01:06):
you did that.

Sara (01:01:07):
Yeah, oh yeah, I did.
I have another good one.
Can I share another one, ooh.
I want it.
Yes, this one's like juicier,so it's not that juicy I
shouldn't have promised.
So my other one is when I wasat Accenture I was paying New
York rent but then travelingevery week to not live in my

(01:01:32):
ridiculous apartment.
We've all been there travelingconsultants.
I made the super smart decisionto instead give up my New York
City apartment and relocate tomy Marriott Executive Stay
apartment in Gaithersburg,Maryland.

Alexis (01:01:49):
Oh, my God.

Sara (01:01:50):
No, yes, I lived like next to a strip mall and I worked at
Marriott headquarters there andI was like I'm so smart, I'm
saving rent money and justsacrificing my joy in life.
But I did that for five monthsand then I was, as you would
expect, miserable, and so Iliterally remember the moment at

(01:02:13):
Accenture you don't really havea direct boss sort of I don't
even really remember you had acareer counselor and I remember
getting on the phone with mycareer counselor and I said I'm
quitting, I'm done, I can't dothe travel anymore.
Um, I'm leaving Accenture, thankyou so much.
It's, you know, been great, and, as they do at Accenture, they

(01:02:35):
don't want to lose anyone thatthey've, you know, trained and
up leveled.
And so she was like well, whatif we can, what if you can move
back to New York and we'll makesure we get you New York-based
projects.
And that's ultimately whathappened.
I moved back to New York, got anew apartment, got on some New
York-based projects and withinweeks is when I started
interviewing at Google in theNew York office.

(01:02:56):
And so it was just, you know,maybe a little bit more
serendipitous than necessarily apower move.
It's definitely a moreunintentional one, but I think
just recognizing what wasn'tworking and being okay with
making a really scary changeultimately precipitated a very
awesome change.

Alexis (01:03:17):
Yeah, I love it.
Well, you got back to New York.
It was kind of like the Googlepart of it was just like the
icing on top.
That's such a great story.
I'll tell you a quick one.
That was a unintendednegotiation that wound up being
a totally unplanned power movemy very, very first job out of
college.
There are so many stories thatI could go into, but one of them

(01:03:39):
was that I was not happy therein this, maybe three months into
my job there, or whatever.
Anyway, I was making my resumeand printing it out and dumbass
leaves the resume on the printerand I come in the next day in
the morning and my boss is like,hey, alexis, what's this?

(01:04:00):
And I was like, uh, you're notmaking enough money.
Okay, I'll give you a thousandbucks more.
Every month I got a $12,000raise because I left my fricking
resume on the printer.
That's amazing.
I love that also totallyunplanned.
I would actually say my bestnegotiations have been total

(01:04:24):
mishaps.
That wound up going my way andI was like, oh wow, that's
really cool, go me that's justwhen you say you did that on
purpose.

Sara (01:04:34):
You know it was all planned, it was part of your
strategy, totally totally anyway, yeah, um well.

Alexis (01:04:41):
so I think we're probably coming up on time.
But before we wind up having toclose out, I would love to ask
one last question for you.
Let's say someone comes up toyou and says Sara, you know
everything, you're the smartestperson in the world.
I want to move up in the careerladder.

(01:05:01):
What do I need to do to getpromoted?

Sara (01:05:05):
Oh, great question, Definitely one I've been asked a
time or two.
First and foremost is yourmanager cannot read your mind If
you think you're doing the mostamazing work in the world and
that someone is going tomagically know that a career
goal of yours is to be promoted.
It's not necessarily that clear, so you really need to make

(01:05:28):
sure your manager knows thatthis is a goal of yours.
It's super important for youand your manager to be on the
same page and have roughly thesame expectations.
Otherwise you're going to beupset, you're going to get
disappointed at some point.
So that is super important.
And, by the way, I have to addthis that does not mean that you

(01:05:51):
badger your manager about itweekly.
That is bad, do not do thatI've also had that happen.
That is the quickest way to notget promoted.
Okay, so you have to understandhow to be tactful.

Alexis (01:06:04):
Probably you're at risk of starting to go down a couple
pegs in terms of any like greatratings either.
To be honest, Right.

Sara (01:06:11):
Where is this person's self-awareness?
You know so, vocalize the goaland have regular, but not too
frequent, conversations abouthow you're tracking towards that
goal.
So I think, in terms ofpromotion, that's a huge one for
me because, again, especiallyin this climate, we're not

(01:06:32):
slinging promotions.
There's not one for everybody,and so if I think someone's
chilling, doing good work andhappy as is, that may be
sufficient, you know.
So I think that's a reallyimportant piece.
If you talk more aboutpotentially promotion, but also
just potentially moving up thecareer ladder, having career

(01:06:54):
progression, having new careerexperiences, the biggest one for
me and this is actually so wellaligned to your talk but it's
really around thatentrepreneurial spirit, that
ability to proactively identifyan emerging issue, a recurring
problem, something that has notbeen tackled yet, and figuring

(01:07:15):
out a way to try and tackle it.
It's like the whole if you seesomething, say something.
I'm in New York where thesubways we are, but that's huge
for me and I don't want to.
I don't mean to oversimplifythat, because it's not easy.
There's a lot that goes intothat type of mentality and the

(01:07:36):
work that is then required toproduce something that is
promotion worthy.
But you know, you at leastidentifying those opportunities,
having conversations aroundwhere those untapped
opportunities may lie.
I think my point is like tryingto be the first to a problem is
a very good place to be whenyou want to move up the career

(01:07:57):
ladder, when you want to get anew experience or, frankly, when
you want to get promoted and itdoesn't, you know.
The final thing I'll say is itdoesn't need to be some massive
project, it doesn't need to beGmail, alexis, it could be
something like really small, itcould be, you know.

Alexis (01:08:13):
Good, because I can't write Gmail.

Sara (01:08:17):
Yes, certainly that is not why I've ever been promoted,
but it doesn't need to be, likeyou know, solving world hunger.
It can certainly be somethingsmall and you start to build
this reputation reputation in agood way, by the way for being
someone that is proactive andsees a problem before others do,

(01:08:38):
and then someone that actuallygoes to try and solve it.
And typically once you startdoing that kind of thing, it
requires other people, itrequires other teams, and you
start to kind of build thisgroup around you.
Then people start to see yourleadership skills.
So it really snowballs, and Ithink that tends to be the
biggest thing that I've seendrive success, at least at

(01:08:59):
Google at a minimum.

Alexis (01:09:01):
Yeah, I think a lot of what you're describing with that
last part is really aboutcultivating a personal brand,
and it can start with smallthings, but once your manager
and other people around you seeyou doing it, it's also you
become a go to person where whenthe next big, crazy, hairy
thing that you have no ideathat's even being discussed
comes up, they're like oh, Sara,oh, you are perfect for this,

(01:09:25):
so you're also building thepotential for those future
unforeseen things to come yourway.
I will throw in one additionalrecommendations uh,
recommendation, thank you.
Plurality.
It is the idea which really,which really comes back to the
talk itself.
I started with Brene Brown's,her quote on vulnerability.

(01:09:49):
I think one of the things thatis hardest for most of the
people that I've worked with andI know I struggled with this so
much I still do whenever I gethard feedback it's still like
smarts.
It still hurts that you reallyneed to be open to getting the
feedback and taking it in.
But not only that.

(01:10:10):
I think it's also that you needto be able to recognize the
things that you are good at andthe things that you're not good
at, and not actually try to godo work that you're not actually
prepared to do and expectamazing outcomes.
There was actually this reallyfantastic TED talk that I came

(01:10:30):
across by Eduardo Briceño.
Probably butchered that younailed it.
All right, sweet.
I mean this is a very popularone.
It's got like four and a halfmillion views or something.
I'll put the link to it in theshow notes, but it's called how
to Get Better at the Things youCare About, and he really is

(01:10:51):
outlining that there are twozones you can be in.
You can be in a learning zoneand you can be in a performance
zone.
And once you know how to dothings, you can be in this
performance zone and you knowkilling it.
And that's obviously ultimately, when you're thinking about
promotions and performancereviews and all that stuff.
Your performance is the thingthat people are talking about,

(01:11:14):
but the reality is that youdon't know how to do all the
things.
It's not like sudden, you know,your manager suddenly talks
about this new skill or thisthing that you can, the things.
It's not like your managersuddenly talks about this new
skill or this thing that youcan't do.
It's not like you're already inthe performance zone.
It's like no, okay, no, I gotto learn this skill.
There's this thing that I don'tknow how to do yet.
Find safe ways to do it anddon't hold yourself to these

(01:11:36):
expectations that you'resupposed to already know how to
do it.
Don't jump and like, assumethat you can do all these things
and now have other peoplerelying on you for it, because
that also can go really badly.
It's a fantastic TED talk.
It's like 12 minutes long.
I think it's definitely a greatuse of your time to take a look
at it.

Sara (01:11:56):
I love that.
I've always been a play to yourstrengths person.
So resonates with me, I do findthough I was a play to my
strengths person so resonateswith me.

Alexis (01:12:01):
I do find, though, I I was a play to my strengths
person, and then I startedhitting things that I couldn't
do, that I needed to do, and itwas.
It was like a, it was a rudeawakening when I started
realizing some of those thingsand, like that was like what was
holding me back from gettingpromoted, and that was a place
where I struggled for a while.
So, anyway, well, Sara, thankyou so much for being here today

(01:12:28):
.
This has been an awesomediscussion.
I love hearing all of thethings that you had to say, so
many, and thank you for sharingsome new to me stories.
That was awesome.

Sara (01:12:36):
If you want me to paint a wall in your house someday,
Alexis, I will.

Alexis (01:12:40):
Okay, okay, do not offer these things and not expect me
to come back to you to do this.
I'll fly in.

Sara (01:12:48):
I actually probably will be in Chicago more this year, so
Ooh, okay, let's talk, we'lltalk.
Thank you very much.
I'm very honored that youwanted to have me on the podcast
and it's been very fun to chatabout these topics.

Alexis (01:13:04):
I'm so honored that you took the time to do this.
I didn't know that you wouldsign up for it.
I'm so glad that you did.
Thank you For listeners.
Let's play back some of thethings that we dug into today.
I started off talking throughthree stages of leveling up that
I outlined in a talk years ago.
They were number one do amazingwork.
Raise the ceiling, push theboundaries of your job.

(01:13:26):
Number two elevate everyone.
Help other people to do thesame kinds of awesome work that
you are doing.
And number three make othersnotice.
Make sure you let everyone youcan know about it inside outside
your org, with the actual goalof helping other people do
better.
This is not coming from a placeof like I'm the best.

(01:13:48):
That's not cool.
I brought Sara on the show.
Thank you so much, Sara Shookus.
You helped us go even deeper.
I loved all your personalstories as a manager, as an IC,
as a leader, a mentor stories asa manager, as an IC, as a
leader or mentor.
We talked about a bunch ofskills and habits, not only to
move up but also to changedirections, talked about being a

(01:14:08):
mom, and we explored this ideaof power moves, and we shared
some advice on what to focus onif you really want to move up or
just grow in your career.
But with that, it is time forus to sign off for today.
Thank you for joining.
I'm Alexis Booth.
This is the Breakout Booth.

(01:14:30):
If you like what you heard,please subscribe to the podcast
or you can head on over tobreakoutboothcom and sign up for
notifications.
Thank you, Sara, again forbeing here, for being my friend.
I hope you have an awesome day.