June 14, 2025 • 78 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Lara Ayad (00:09):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Cheeky Scholar.
This is the podcast where smartand cheeky scholars share their
knowledge about history, artand culture and bust a whole lot
of myths along the way.
I'm your host, dr Lara Ayad.
If you're new to the show,thanks for joining us today and
(00:31):
if you've listened before,welcome back.
For this episode.
I had a chance to sit down withTamar Avishai.
Tamar is the creator and hostof the Lonely Palette podcast.
Now, if you've listened to theLonely Palette before, you know
that Tamar is the creator andhost of the Lonely Palette
podcast.
Now, if you've listened to theLonely Palette before, you know
that Tamar goes around theBoston Museum of Fine Arts with
a microphone and she interviewsunsuspecting passersby, asking
(00:54):
them what they think of theartworks that are on display,
what the artworks look like andhow it affects them emotionally.
Tamar also goes deep into thehistory of the artworks that are
on display, providing culturalcontext.
She ultimately brings arthistory to the masses.
If you haven't checked out theshow, I highly recommend you go
ahead and search for it in yourpodcast feed.
(01:17):
So I was really excited to sitdown with Tamar and talk about
art and, in particular, to talkabout what the role of the
artist is in society today andwhat the role of art museums
should be.
For instance, we talked aboutquestions like should museums
exhibit art that some peopleconsider offensive, and is
censorship always the answer toart that could be considered
(01:40):
offensive or having offensiveimagery, and when does
censorship go too far?
Coming out of the conversation,I kept thinking about what
Tamar said about artists,because she argues that artists
are journalists with emotions.
She also says that museumsshould steward art as a
reflection of society.
Both the good and the bad parts.
(02:00):
So stay tuned for this one.
I think you're going to reallylike it.
The bad parts so stay tuned forthis one.
I think you're going to reallylike it.
So, tamar, welcome to the CheekyScholar.
How are you doing?
Tamar Avishai (02:22):
Thank you, I'm not bad.
I'm eight months pregnant, soI'm a little achy, but otherwise
the flesh is weak but thespirit is willing.
Lara Ayad (02:27):
That's such a good way of putting it.
Well, congratulations again onyour expecting.
That's incredible, yeah, yeah.
And I know you're growing thefamily too, right?
So this is not your first rodeo.
Tamar Avishai (02:38):
No, this is my third, third and final.
Oh, my goodness, ladders beingpulled up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lara Ayad (02:45):
Well, yeah, yeah, well, that's very exciting.
Congratulations, thank you.
Yeah, so I understand.
So, first of all, I just wantto say to Mar, I want to give a
shout out because when I wasfirst thinking about doing this
podcast, you were one of thefirst people I turned to to ask
for advice on how to create oneand everything, and you gave me
(03:06):
such good advice, including, youknow, a lot of.
You told me a lot of peoplethink that they should make a
podcast based on what they wantto say, but you told me make a
podcast based on what you'd wantto hear as a podcast listener,
and that was one of the bestpieces of advice that I've ever
gotten.
So thank you for that.
Tamar Avishai (03:24):
Oh, I'm so glad.
Lara Ayad (03:25):
It's been really inspirational and it's actually
given me concrete direction andwhere to take this project.
Tamar Avishai (03:32):
So yeah, that's awesome oh.
I'm so glad to hear that thatwas a hard one lesson myself and
I think that's actuallysomething that so many
podcasters it's like like nojudgment, you know, I mean why.
Why make a podcast if you don'tfeel like you have something to
say?
Um, but if you want people tolisten, you gotta know to what
(03:56):
they want to hear.
And I think that's strikingthat balance, because you don't
want to be totally captured byyour audience and you don't.
You don't want to be totallycaptured by your audience and
you don't want to make somethingthat you know like you censor
yourself or you, you know, youkind of take on a persona that
isn't you in order to increaseyour audience.
I mean that's no good either.
(04:17):
You have to find that balance.
Lara Ayad (04:19):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I'm sure that as
things go along, I'll even finda way to kind of carve my place
even more, while also speakingto an audience.
So, yeah, that's great advice.
Tamar Avishai (04:32):
So hopefully we'll be all.
Lara Ayad (04:34):
Yes, yes, hopefully crossing our fingers.
So, tamar, what is really coolabout this conversation is we're
both have backgrounds in arthistory, right, and I know you
are.
You are the host of the LonelyPalette podcast.
I love the name of that podcastand I know that you have kind
of gotten back into launchingsome new episodes, so maybe
(04:56):
first tell us, like what youhave, you know, kind of on the
docket for what's coming up andwhat audiences can expect for
what's coming up and whataudiences can expect.
Tamar Avishai (05:04):
Well, I've been away for a while and so I feel
like I'm kind of simultaneouslykind of to the brim with what I
would love to put out there andreally dive into and episode
ideas that I've had for yearsand years and I've been kind of
gathering tape, you know, justkind of here and there to
(05:26):
someday make the episode, andalso feeling really rusty, like
really out of practice.
I've spent the last year almostand a half like year and a bit
away from the Lonely Palettebecause I've just been really
trying to build up my ownfreelance audio business and
(05:47):
portfolio.
I've been making a lot of audiofor other people and it's been
incredibly educational, bendingand evolving and growing, based
on having worked with so manyother audio producers and and
(06:09):
also kind of being the audioproducer who helps shape someone
else's voice, um, but now I'mI'm kind of taking that back to
my roots and trying to figureout you, you know how best to
make, you know how how muchbetter I can make my show and
and you know how, like, how muchbetter of a producer I can be
(06:36):
in that show.
But I'm also like, like,somewhere in there, I'm also an
art historian and I find myselfan art historian and I find
myself, you know, like, okay, soit's, it's 2025.
I officially graduated fromcollege 20 years ago.
Um, that's a long time to beaway from the field.
(06:58):
Um, I mean, I got a master'safter that.
So I guess I guess I can onlystart the clock at 2008 when I
finished my master's.
But, like I, you know, the lasttime I really, you know, kind
of did the university likebreadth over depth thing.
I think art historians hadreally different priorities and
(07:22):
really different concerns.
Art historians had reallydifferent priorities and really
different concerns.
And you know my, my departmentat uh, the university of Toronto
where I did my undergrad hadreally different professors, you
know, and, and professors whostudied very specific things
that now have been quitediversified.
(07:43):
That it wasn't when I was there.
So I'm starting to recognizethat I don't know, there's like
a little bit of old fart inthere.
In my education I'm tempted tosay puts the art in old fart,
but that's so terrible andcheesy, but there you go.
Lara Ayad (07:59):
No, no, I like it.
I like it.
The Lonely Palate it puts theart in old fart.
But that's so terrible andcheesy, but there you go.
No, no, I like it.
Tamar Avishai (08:04):
I like it, the lonely palette it puts.
It puts the old, the art andold fart, um, but that's.
You know, when I talk toundergrad classes now, I realize
I've been away a long time andthe industry has changed a lot,
like the field, the disciplinehas changed a lot and the way
that art history is taught haschanged a lot.
And you know, maybe I kind ofrepresent a small piece of that
(08:27):
which is cool, but yeah, so soyou know, like in the birdcage
it's like.
So all of that has just comeout through my eyes.
Lara Ayad (08:47):
Tamar, because the way I see your show, the Lonely
Palate, is, even though I knowyou don't necessarily identify
traditionally as a scholar inthe more kind of traditional
sense, I do- I identify as acheeky scholar.
As a cheeky scholar.
Oh my god, I love that.
I love that.
I'm so proud to have you as,like one of the guests on the
show Absolutely a cheeky scholar.
So that's the thing is likeyour show the Lonely Palate
(09:09):
brings.
It is bringing art history tothe masses.
I know that's like one thingyou have really felt very
passionate about and you know,having this kind of I guess you
could almost like a digitalhumanities project of bringing
this art historical analysis toa more public platform on a
podcast.
You don't need to be going tocollege, you don't need to pay
for expensive college classes tolearn in depth about one
(09:30):
artwork or another as you'relistening to the podcast, or be
in the museum, for that matter.
Or to be in the museum, and Iknow when you had started the
podcast, you were going aroundmostly the Boston Museum of Fine
Arts and really focusing on oneartwork there on display and
starting off each episode justasking passersby and people
visiting what do you think ofthe work, what does it look like
(09:52):
, Describe it, what kind ofimpact does it have on you?
And it's such a provocative andalso very thoughtful way to
engage with art that you are notlooking at the artwork by
listening to the episode, butyou are listening to people's
experiences of the artwork andthe way they visually described.
So you have to imagine whatthat looks like and there's
(10:15):
something about that that.
Okay, yeah, you need the formalanalysis of looking at the
visual qualities of an artwork,but there's also this deeply
imaginative and also the kind ofa cultural collective aspect to
art history that comes through,I think, in the Lonely Palette.
Tamar Avishai (10:33):
Thank you.
No, I love thinking about itthat way.
You know I still, I still seethe object in person, you know,
95% of the time, and you knowrecord people's first responses
to it, and you know I say thisall the time but like you don't
(10:55):
hear all the people who say no,I don't want to be recorded,
because they are so worried thatthey're going to be on the hook
to say something reallyprofound when that's exactly.
You know, I can't say it enough, Like it doesn't have to.
You don't have to know anythingabout this artwork, please.
Any interpretation is actuallylike it hurts, it doesn't help,
(11:16):
Like just describe what you see,and uh, and still, people are
very uncomfortable talking aboutart in that kind of um, that
kind of environment, and so thatalways reinforces to me why a
show you know I'm not going tosay why my show needs to exist,
but like why an approach to arthistory that I find so
(11:38):
compelling needs to exist too,in order to get people to
understand how very human theseartworks are and that anybody
telling them that that it's notfor them to understand without a
PhD they're the failures, youknow, like they're the ones who
(11:59):
are kind of misinterpreting thework and.
I speak for all of us arthistorians.
They're like if, if, that, like, if that's the story that
people are getting, it's theincorrect one.
Lara Ayad (12:10):
Yeah, so this is so interesting to Mar because it's
when I think about sciencemuseums, for instance.
You know they often tend to.
If you notice, science museumstend to, in contrast to art
museums.
Science museums tend to attractfamilies with kids and people
going there.
You don't have to be ascientist to go to a science
(12:31):
museum.
Everybody knows that You'regoing there to learn about
things you don't know.
Why do you think that artmuseums seem to have a very
different place in our societythat we're not.
We're not.
A lot of people are notnecessarily going to art museums
to learn in that same way.
What do you think is going onthere?
Tamar Avishai (12:51):
Yeah, now that reminds me of of, uh, I was
talking to an art critic who wassaying that, um, the only other
, the only other place besidesart museums in in kind of
cultural spaces where people areexpected to kind of know the
story going in, is the sportspage of the newspaper and how
(13:13):
it's like we don't you know,people who are into sports don't
realize that somebody who isnot following sports at all like
it.
It's, it's varsity level, likeyou pick up the sports page and
it's like well, I don't, I don'tknow the context of all of this
.
You know it's like this is,this is not for me if you don't
already follow it.
And I always thought that was areally great comparison.
(13:35):
I mean, look, science museums.
I would imagine, if you wouldcompare the missions or the
mission statement of any sciencemuseum as compared to an art
museum, they're going to havesome really fundamentally
different mandates that ascience museum will always put
(13:58):
education first, because that'swhat that space is for.
They're not actually, you know,conducting like, like high
level scientific experiments.
They're breaking it down andturning everything into play,
and that's the purpose of aspace like that.
The mission of most art museumsis to be stewards of these
(14:19):
objects.
It's to collect, preserve, youknow, like and educate.
But that's always, it's likeusually the last one, and it's
only really recently thateducation even was part of the
mission of art museums.
Up until that point it wasabout stewardship and preserving
(14:42):
these objects from generationto generation so for people to
kind of come in and expect like,you know, it's not like they're
gonna touch them or handle theartworks or you know it's like,
oh, that's what a Monet feelslike.
I mean, you know that whateveryou can learn from that, which
actually wouldn't be nothing, I,I think that you know you could
(15:04):
learn a lot from, kind of likefeeling the texture of the paint
.
Can you imagine Totally?
Lara Ayad (15:09):
You know you'd be amazed, tamar.
I've actually.
I remember one time.
I'm trying to remember where Iwas.
I might have been at theWalters Art Museum in Baltimore,
maryland.
This was years ago, back when Iwas like barely even in grad
school, and I saw they had someancient egyptian artworks,
including like a sculpture of a.
I think it was um a portrait ofa pharaoh, but a pharaoh as
(15:30):
like a sort of sphinx figure andit was like I don't know about
small to medium size and one guyjust like was walking by it and
he just like kind of liketouched it and like scratched
the base and then just like keptwalking and I was like and
rubbed its nose for good luck.
Tamar Avishai (15:47):
Yeah, it's like.
Lara Ayad (15:47):
That's why those statues always have, like, shiny
noses and shiny boobs, for somereason, as people are always
rubbing the wrong parts of theor the right parts of the
sculpture.
But it's all just to say.
It's so interesting how ourreaction to that too is oh no,
you're ruining the artwork.
You know like there is thissort of presumption of like
stewarding.
(16:08):
You know being stewards ofthese objects.
Tamar Avishai (16:11):
You know, like again you go into a science
museum, those you know, thosemusical stairs or those you know
those little like balls thatlike all light up with the
electricity from your hand andmake your hair.
You know, those aren'tthousands of years old, those
aren't 500 years old.
You know, those are made for theexperience of play and
(16:32):
education.
And so, you know, in that way Iunderstand why art museums are
just fundamentally differentspaces.
You know, like just becausethey're all museums doesn't mean
that they are doing the samething.
And so you know, that said, itgoes a little far when art
(16:55):
historians take theconnoisseurship piece of their
jobs, you know, know, when theyprioritize it over the education
piece.
And I think that people havejust kind of accepted that, like
, visitors kind of feel like,well, if I'm not the expert here
(17:18):
, it's not for me to.
You know, I, you know how manypeople have you talked to?
It's like, well, I don't knowif it's good.
You know, I, I don't know art,like I like it, but I don't, you
know, it's not for me to say,and, and you know, I am not a
curator, I'm not a connoisseur,I am an educator.
So those are the people I wantto talk to and there are
(17:43):
curators doing their jobs andconservators doing their jobs,
and preparators doing their jobs, and me, you know, and all the
people like me who are reallyinterested in kind of being the
conduit between the you know,the incredibly human story of
(18:03):
the people who made this workand the complicated times that
they lived in, and people whohappen to be on the planet now
experiencing these objects, whoare also living through a really
complicated time, and findingthat point of connection between
the two and giving peoplepermission to relate to them.
Lara Ayad (18:25):
Yeah, you know what's a good example of that that
comes to mind for you, Maybe anartwork.
Say that you think is wow, thisis such a human creation and
this is something that nowadayswe, in our complicated times,
could learn something from orconnect to in some way.
Tamar Avishai (18:46):
I mean, maybe this is front of mind for me
just because of my, my delicatecondition, um, but I love
walking into a Louise Bourgeoisgallery and seeing people be
absolutely repulsed, and seeingpeople be absolutely repulsed
and sharing a certain amount ofthat repulsion, but they don't
(19:13):
know why it's like they feellike, and you know she's not
looking outside of her, you knowshe's not like Katie Kovitz,
you know I mean she's not kindof basing her work on the
context of war.
Andise bourgeois is interestedin her own body.
She's interested in bodies,bodies, bodies, bodies, and and
(19:33):
she has some reallyextraordinary, um, pregnant
bodies.
That my favorite is is one I Iforgot what the actual name is,
it's something goddess, but it'slike meant to be kind of um, uh
, kind of subversive and cheeky.
(19:53):
Um, and the one that she doeswhen she's younger and has a lot
of anxiety around pregnancy isis like made of brass or or
something very, very hard andand unappealing, you know, I
mean it's, it's beautiful, it'ssmooth, but it's like it's very
(20:18):
intentionally not soft.
And then she revisited it whenshe was in her like 80s and it
was, and she made the samesculpture but in in like pink
felt, and I love that evolutionof hers because it's like the
(20:40):
same evolution that anybody youknow anybody goes through
themselves when they have kids.
Like that it goes from thisincredible place of anxiety to
if I had only known that Ididn't have to be so scared.
You know, like that, there's awhich you can't, you can't know,
(21:00):
you know you do it.
There's a which you can't, youcan't know, you know, you, you
do it.
You only do it for the firsttime, once, thank God, and then
any subsequent time it never hasto be for the first time again,
but it's like you can see herown evolution there and suddenly
(21:25):
it makes her work, which againis like like it can be really
revolting.
I feel like that softens, it,humanizes, it, makes it
incredibly accessible.
If you were to see those twosculptures side by side and and
apply it, you know kind ofproject your own life and
experience onto that, if that'ssomething you've experienced.
Lara Ayad (21:45):
That's really interesting too, and just for
some background for thelisteners, louise Bourgeois was
pretty active in the 80s, Ibelieve that's.
She's an American artist, gotreally active in the 80s and she
still is active as an artist.
She went back to this artworkit sounds like in the 80s and so
, yeah, she's coming from a verydifferent context than, say,
someone like Kathy Kolowitz thatyou brought up before, but it
(22:07):
is.
It is kind of incredible howartwork, without using text,
without using words, butactually through the use of
things like texture and colorand things like that, can evoke
such strong reactions based, youknow, depending on, like, where
you are in life and what you'rebringing to the table.
(22:28):
So it's not just about theartist with a capital A, you
know, bringing meaning to the,to the passive vessel, viewer,
it's.
It's more actually aninteresting kind of quiet
dialogue, if you will, betweenthe person encountering the
artwork and then the artworkitself and, in a way, the artist
(22:49):
too, as maybe a third party.
Yeah, yeah, that's reallyfascinating.
So so what then?
You know, kind of stepping backto and looking at museums and
looking at artists.
I mean, those, these, these are, of course, we're talking about
art, museums and where they'reoverlapping, but maybe we can
step back to and I'm curious toask you, tamar, what do you
(23:13):
think the role of the artist isin today's society?
And you mentioned like we livein a complicated world.
I know it's a big question, butwhat do you think should be the
role of an artist in today'ssociety?
Tamar Avishai (23:31):
I think the role of the artist in today's society
is the same as the role of theartist has been for the last 200
years, ever since artists weregiven a kind of intellectual and
philosophical and financialautonomy to to create what they
(23:54):
want, um, and to respond to theworld that they're observing.
Um, you know, that's when youstart to see the artists who my
my grad school advisor.
She always loved the idea ofthe.
I mean she, she focusedspecifically on on mid 19th
century Paris, but the, theSalton bank, like the um or the
(24:17):
Flanner, or you know somebodywho kind of exists on the
outskirts of society andobserves, exists on the
outskirts of society andobserves, and that the, the.
I feel like artists arejournalists with emotions.
(24:39):
I feel like they look at theworld around them and they
create based on how it affectsthem and they tell the story of
their moment.
They can be completelysubjective about it, they can be
(25:02):
activists, but they have aresponsibility to tell that
story correctly and withoutcensoring themselves.
And so it's really importantthat an artist just capture
(25:26):
something very, very authenticabout the moment that they're
living in, even if that's notthe whole story, even if that's
their story, but to be reallytruthful about their own
experience that way and to havesome talent in the application
(25:53):
of materials to, you know, to tonot just have a very profound
insight but to be able toexpress it in a way that will
make people look.
You know that that thatrequires a very specific kind of
gift, artistic gift, but I, youknow, I guess that kind of begs
the question like what anartist shouldn't do Make ugly
(26:20):
art that doesn't make you wantto look.
Well, louise Bourgeois made thatrevolting art and it made you
look right, it doesn't certainlydoesn't have to be pretty, if
anything really pretty artpeople will buy, and that's a
different business model thankind of being, you know, being
(26:44):
the kind of artist who is hailedas the kind of genius who's
able to kind of like put theirfinger on the pulse of the
moment and get you know, likehave museums be interested in
what they do, but like, look,museums are businesses too.
I mean, there's no, nobody haslike super clean hands, and
especially not artists, but likethere's there's no arbiter in
(27:11):
the moment that says, oh okay,you're great, you're shit.
You know, you've said itbrilliantly your derivative.
You know you need some timeaway, you need some distance to
kind of look at what is going tolast, because it's very hard to
kind of know what any societyis going to say okay, this
(27:35):
really was the most importantauthentic moment to capture.
So it's, you know, it's kind ofit's like it duels itself.
You know there's a battle therebetween between the ability to
capture the moment as it's beinglived and take and, like
historians, taking a step backand being like, well, was that
(27:55):
the most important moment tocapture?
and I think that that's what arthistorians and historians
really struggle with.
I think that that's a reallycomplicated part of the job.
Is, you know, determining whoseauthenticity is going to speak
loudest?
You know, for the moment, thatit's representing.
Lara Ayad (28:19):
Right, and there's even this whole issue, too, of
artists that will maybe try toget their works into galleries
and into museums based on whatthey think not just curators but
also directors and donors willwant to see in a museum, and
that can be very complicated and, quite frankly, socially and
(28:42):
politically charged as well,right?
So there's a whole other layerto that as well, and artists
have always been.
I think you're bringing up theemergence of this new role for
an artist 200 years ago isreally interesting, because
artists for thousands of yearshave been making art to make
ends meet, put bread on thetable.
You were, you know.
(29:04):
I know that in parts of Europeprior to the early modern period
, or prior to at least even theearly 1800s, there wasn't really
a common word for artist theway that we use it today.
Right, it was usually acraftsperson or a craftsman, and
they were making art for apatron who paid to make an
artwork that filled a religiousor practical function.
(29:26):
Right?
So this artist the way weunderstand it today, with, like
the capital A, the genius thatmakes an artwork to express
themselves or to speak to a,there's an economic factor still
, even after thousands of years,but that, the, that the, the,
(29:51):
the playground is kind ofshifted Right, is a really good
example of an artist thatperhaps pushes boundaries,
really authentically expressesthemselves and fills that role
in the way you were talkingabout just earlier.
Tamar Avishai (30:23):
I don't have the same experience with living
artists as I do with deadartists, because I am a
modernist um with a capital m.
So you know, kind of 18 like,so like 1950 is my cutoff, but
(30:46):
two artists who I feel like have, I mean I kind of wonder if
it's cheating to say somebodylike Anselm Kiefer, who is
probably one of the most famousand richest living artists today
.
So you know, he has, he has anexperience that is not, you know
(31:07):
, that's like saying likeBeyonce, you know, I mean there
there are a lot of othermusicians out there who are
struggling and are talented andmaybe even more talented, you
know.
But it's like, but I feel likeKiefer, because I personally
have have put so much of my ownkind of scholarly energy into
(31:28):
post-Holocaust representation,like I find that his work as a
German born in 1945, constantlytrying to grapple maybe not as
much anymore, but it certainlywas a huge part of his career,
for kind of the formative partof his career he was really
(31:48):
really trying to understand whatit meant to grow up in a
society filled with shame andatonement and be born into that
and that and take something likethe Nazi salute, you know kind
(32:12):
of be like be born intosomething where just this way
that you can put your hand canget you arrested and you're
you're a kid and you kind of.
You know like we don't, wedon't tend to give a whole lot
of kind of our own mental realestate to the afterlives and the
after generations of theperpetrators, because you know,
(32:33):
that's like not of this.
You know of like doing the Nazisalute in front of like a tree,
like in front of the ocean andand showing how impotent it was
(33:02):
when it's just one person tryingto understand its power.
And he didn't do it to be likehe's, he knew it was outrageous,
but that wasn't the point.
You know he wasn't trying tooffend, he was trying to
(33:22):
understand.
You know, kind of looking backat his own hand, like where is
the offense here?
Because of course it's thereand of course there's this
incredible semiotic power.
I mean, god, we, we are kind ofin that moment right now, how
you know whether or not, whetheror not you know the, the hand,
(33:46):
hand gestures we've seen, um,you know is is meant to do that,
like he was wrestling with thatin in a very, I feel, authentic
way and from there he reallydives into the poetry of the
(34:06):
Holocaust survivor, paul Celan,and trying, trying, trying,
layer, layer, layer, tounderstand what it means to
articulate tragedy.
And so you know that, like Idon't know, I kind of fall into
(34:35):
his work and I'm just sofascinated by how he you know
how his brain works like, how hewraps his brain around these
ideas or maybe doesn't even knowwhere he's going when he starts
.
He just, you know, just justlayers materials upon materials.
And another artist who I thinkis able to really articulate the
(34:57):
moment is Carrie Mae Weems.
I find her photography to be sobeautifully humane and, you
know, like her kitchen tableseries, it, it, it's so
(35:19):
beautiful, it's so like Iremember looking at her work,
especially in 2020.
And in that moment where it wasvery, very important to
delineate, to kind of draw linesand to use very specific
(35:41):
categorizations to determine whois allowed to tell what story,
and I think, in some moreproductive ways, we've moved
past that, like I think peoplehave kind of recognized that
there's there are kind ofstrategic and tactical
limitations to division, eveneven as we recognize the value
(36:07):
of lived experience and notknowing what you don't know.
In a way that that has beenvery important and I hope that's
what, that's what stays in theculture, even as we kind of get
past the, the separateness.
But then I would look at herkitchen table series and I would
see an artist and this is justher take where she was like,
(36:31):
look at how much we all have incommon, you know.
Look at how my family, my Blackfamily, sitting around our
kitchen table is exactly thesame as your white table sitting
around your kitchen table, andwe have all the same complicated
dynamics and you have, like youknow, mothers and daughters and
(36:54):
and you know, like, like she iskind of the sun or you know,
she and the pendant light inthat series is the sun around
which everyone else circles.
And so you see her with, likeher husband and them kind of
(37:14):
having, you know, kind ofmundane interactions and also
very loaded interactions, andyou see that same with her own
children and you see that withher parents and it's just like
she is a human being living herlife.
And granted, you know she'smodeling, like she's.
It's not really her, it's notreally her life.
But I am so moved by the scenesthat she stages in that series
(37:46):
and I feel like I I really,really connect to what she's
trying to say about our sharedhumanity and that was very like
I.
I clung to that like a liferaft in 2020.
Lara Ayad (38:03):
In a life raft in a tumultuous, raging ocean storm.
That it's kind of interestingbecause, although we are, we're
really past the pandemic and yetwe are still in these very
complicated times, and I amreally struck by how we're just
(38:25):
barely coming to terms with theidea that actually, okay, yes,
identity can be important,positionality can be important,
but, just like everything elsein the world, it can have its
limitations, and when you take acertain idea too far, what you
can?
I had one friend of mine whodescribed a certain I guess you
(38:48):
could say sociopolitical sosociocultural political stances
as being like a spectrum, and aspectrum is really like a circle
, right, so you've got like theinfrared and you've got the
ultraviolet.
They're at the opposite ends ofthe spectrum, but it's a circle
that one bleeds into the other,and if you start going too far
in one direction, it's going togo into the other.
(39:09):
And I love that analogy,because here we go with an art,
historical, visual analogy.
I love that analogy, though,because I think it's um, I think
it really does capture in thiscase, where this insistence on
we are different from you, wehave nothing in common with you
(39:29):
or with these other people orthose people over there, starved
for a sense of like.
Well, what are we fighting for?
Like, who can we relate to?
You talked about sharedhumanity, and I really do.
I really do think that.
(39:49):
I really do think that art hasa particular power, like Carrie
Mae Weems' work, in helping usunderstand.
Oh, we have a lot more incommon than we have different
Like.
The differences are important,yes, but we have a lot more in
common, and recognizing theimportance of that commonality
(40:11):
could be the antidote to so manyof the problems that we are
facing today no-transcript.
Tamar Avishai (40:42):
The worst ones are the ones that try to ape Dr
Seuss but can't like.
He is a genius, he is a.
You know the musicality of hisrhymes and the and his cadences
like they're just perfect andit's such a pleasure to read.
You know, not like one fish,two fish, red fish, blue fish,
which is like 50 pages too long.
(41:03):
But you know, the ones that aregreat are genius.
And we just got a whole newbatch, so we got Yertle, the
Turtle and Sneetches and theseare unbelievably progressive
(41:24):
stories.
It's really powerful.
I mean, the Butter Battle bookis a good one, like it's kind of
like thought to be hispolitical one because it's so
clearly about the Cold War, butSneetches is about and like,
stop me if, if, like this isobvious, um, but but Sneetches
(41:47):
is about.
You know these two.
You know these like animalslike, uh, you know like they're,
they're Dr Seuss creations, butone.
You know they all look the same, except half of them have stars
on their bellies and they turnthat into this like caste system
(42:08):
where if you don't have thestar, you're left out.
And you know that the childrenwith the stars won't play with
the children without the stars.
And so it's like justunderstood that the sneetches
without stars without they don'thave a star on our bellies um,
are second-class citizens intheir society.
(42:30):
And this like huckster comes totown with a machine that puts
stars on people's on sneetchbellies and they all pay to get
the stars on.
And then the ones who have thestars are like, well, we can't
have this.
So he's like, oh, it's okay, Ihave another machine that takes
stars off and then the onewithout the stars still kind of
(42:52):
like work their way higher upand they just spend like days
and days going in and out ofmachines until finally nobody
knows who was who, and it bringstheir society together.
And then you have, like Yertlethe turtle.
Where Yertle is?
This like mean turtle king whostacks like a thousand turtles
(43:16):
so that he can see really high,and the one at the bottom who's
been kind of like I don't wantto like make a fuss, but like
this really hurts, like finallyhe's just like over it and he
burps and the whole thing justfalls down and it's like this
incredibly like Marxistwonderful story.
And I was thinking I promisethis all has a point, not just
(43:39):
that art can be, you know, evenart for kids can be, you know,
incredibly powerful.
But I was thinking about how Ifound in my old box of books to
think that I saw it on MulberryStreet, which, during that
really crazy time in 2020, whenyou know know kind of identity
(44:00):
melted people's brains um, thatbook was, uh, taken off the
shelves because it was.
It came out in the 30s and thereare some drawings of like some
caricatured you know, like acaricature of a Chinese guy like
waving chopsticks or somethingI mean, like that's kind of
(44:22):
considered, like that was enoughthat the estate of Dr Seuss was
pressured to stop publishingthat book, and I was really glad
to find my own copy of itbecause you can't really get it
anymore.
And I thought to myself whatworld are we living in, where
(44:43):
you have the same writer whowrites the Lorax and Sneetches
and Yertle, the Turtle and theButter Battle Book and who is
able to take these incrediblycomplex ideas about the
importance of shared humanityand of of, you know,
(45:06):
diversifying your worldview andmaking room for everybody,
because there is space foreverybody and not treating
anybody as though they're morevalid or higher up than anyone
else, and he's fucking canceledbecause of a of a drawing that
he did in the 30s.
When you know, like I I'm notdefending it but like, come on,
(45:32):
that is such a deliberate blindeye to the larger contributions
of this man to the world and hisart and that kind of thinking
really opened my eyes to whatfelt like the real kind of
(45:56):
flattened incoherence of thisactivist movement and that I
couldn't, that it didn't feelserious hmm, it didn't feel
serious in in what sense like isthere something maybe about it,
tamara, that you kind ofinterpreted or experiences maybe
a little inauthentic, or likewhere?
(46:19):
I think it was looking for easywins and okay, nothing that is
being tackled in the identitypolitics game right now is easy,
and to take pleasure in thekind of mob cancellation of a
(46:42):
willful of like, willfulmisinterpretation.
You know, like we, we talked alot, we all thought a lot about,
um, impact versus intention,and I think I would have gone
into 2020 thinking that onlyintention mattered, and in that
(47:07):
way, my thinking was reallycomplicated.
You know like I realizedactually impact matters a lot
too, um, but to only focus onimpact and not intention is just
as, as you know, facile in theother direction.
(47:32):
Um and so that to me felt likeyou're not really taking this
seriously.
Like this is, you know, like ina in succession, when he's just
like you're not serious people,like if you're just looking for
what can fit on a picket sign.
You're not really taking theseincredibly complicated, nuanced
(47:53):
problems all that seriously.
Lara Ayad (47:56):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting because you
mentioned, you know, those,those caricatures of Chinese
people.
I mean, I don't agree with them.
They stink Right, but at thesame time, like what might be?
You know, dr Seuss alsocontributed so many other great
things in literature and didsuch a phenomenal job with just
changing the landscape ofchildren's books and children's
(48:17):
writing, and he really is anartist, was an artist.
What might be a more productiveway of approaching you know,
whether or not you choose topublish a book, like, let's say,
you continue publishing thebooks with these caricatures,
could it, would it be possibleto say, should we just like,
kind of like, put it out there,not say anything about it?
(48:38):
Should we give some context forsome things?
Because he was writing some ofthese in the 1930s and it was a
different time?
What do you think of that?
Like how, in other words, Iguess my question is if somebody
made art that is kind ofoffensive, it is offensive and
was intended to stereotype orcharacter a whole group of
people, how could we look at ittoday in a way where we're not
(49:02):
sterilizing our world of art bytaking it out completely?
But is there perhaps anotherway we could approach it?
Tamar Avishai (49:12):
Look, you know, my son wanted to watch Peter Pan
the other day and so we poppedit on and there was that black
screen at the beginning thatgave that disclaimer about.
You know, what you're about towatch is like deeply racist.
It was wrong then and it'swrong now.
I mean, my husband and I kindof joke about those, like
honestly, because and I don'twant to sound like I'm not
(49:34):
taking this seriously Like Irecognize that that language has
to be incredibly workshoppedand it reads as though it is.
You know there are people whoare going to see stuff that they
weren't expecting.
That is not particularly savoryand, you know, has, like, has
(49:57):
been deemed offensive or is nowbeing seen for how offensive it
really was.
In our contemporary society.
It just happened all at oncethat it's hard to kind of look
at that.
You know we were watching likeMuppet Show episodes that also,
too, are.
You know there's a kind of like.
You know we grew up in the liketomboy free-to-be-you-and-me
(50:22):
world.
Lara Ayad (50:23):
Yeah, like 80s, 90s kind of yeah.
Tamar Avishai (50:26):
Yeah, like we all kind of feel like, you know,
like content of one's characteris what matters anyway, is what
matters anyway.
However, you know, again, thatdoesn't take into account that
that people move through theworld in very different ways
(50:48):
from each other and and youwouldn't know that, you don't
know what you don't know aboutthe way that other people are
experiencing the world, or youknow, I mean, I I kind of
hesitate to like bring up likemicroaggressions, but like it's
true, it's real, you know, and,and I kind of hesitate to like
bring up like microaggressions,but like it's true, it's real,
you know, and things that youdon't realize until you talk to
people, and it's like Jesus, Inever saw that.
(51:10):
And they're like yeah, no, youwouldn't have.
And it's like like that's,that's true, you know, like okay
, yeah.
But you know at the same timethe Muppet Show it, but you know
at the same time the MuppetShow.
It's like you know to have abig black screen in front of it
(51:30):
that says it was wrong then andit's wrong now.
I mean, it was the Muppet Show,it was genius.
So you know like we take itwith a grain of salt.
But anyway, he wants to watchPeter Pan.
Peter Pan is a really like.
Nobody comes out of Peter Pancovered in glory.
um you know, it's true somesuper racist stereotypes in
(51:50):
there and and in a way you cankind of appreciate the, the
childlike perspective of kind ofcategorizing people into groups
and almost seeing the worst ofthem, like what's scariest about
every different group.
You know if you really want tolike dig into the you know the
(52:14):
psychology of Peter Pan, likethat's you know you could do
that.
But if you're a kid and you'rewatching it and you see, you
know the way that NativeAmericans are depicted.
Lara Ayad (52:25):
Right, yes, now I remember that.
Tamar Avishai (52:28):
Yeah, what makes the red man red?
I mean, you know, and no adultis kind of like it's not really
how we talk about people anymore.
You know, like it was wrongthen and it's wrong now.
Lara Ayad (52:41):
You know, like that's .
Tamar Avishai (52:42):
That is a valid conversation, and so what I
think is so important is thatconversation.
And you can't have thatconversation if things are just
removed from Disney Plus quietly, or, you know, if a Dr Seuss
(53:03):
book is taken off the shelf andI again I feel like that black
screen and that workshoplanguage can be a little clumsy
and corporate, but it is farpreferable to taking the art
away.
That is the worst thing you cando and I will say that till my
(53:24):
throat is sore.
You know, you, you can't fightbad ideas with censorship.
You fight bad speech with goodspeech, with better speech.
Um, and I think that that'slike if, if someone is going to
espouse really contemptibleopinions, let them be heard for
(53:47):
them, so that then the world canlook at them and say that was a
really ignorant opinion.
Lara Ayad (53:54):
Yeah, so now we know what we're getting.
Tamar Avishai (53:56):
Yeah, like, like you are reinforcing to me why I
believe, you know why I have mymoral conviction and my moral
center, and you are so far tothe extreme of it that I don't
particularly want to engage withyou.
Like, like, let people showtheir asses that way.
Mm hmm, you know I mean we'rekind of drifting away from art,
(54:22):
but I think that artists have anobligation also to to like play
around with those extremes alsoyeah.
And like challenge people toexpand their thinking.
Lara Ayad (54:39):
Is there?
Tamar Avishai (54:40):
Yeah, no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead, oh no I
just I like I'm not exactly surewhat point I'm making, but I
feel like an artist who is onlymaking what they think is going
to land with their audience orconfirm their audience's priors
(55:02):
or get them booked at a show youknow where the gallery stands
to make a lot of money or youknow kind of be really accepted.
Not only is making somethingthat is not going to last or
kind of stand the test of timeto last or kind of stand the
(55:29):
test of time, but they aren'tencouraging people to expand
their own thinking at all aboutwhat the work can be and what
you know representing somethingthat someone never would have
thought of or intentionallydestabilizes them, you know,
makes them think about somethingdifferently or subverts an idea
(55:49):
.
But it's a risk.
Like as the artist, you have tobe willing to be disliked
because you're making someoneuncomfortable, and I think that
that kind of goes back to thatlike flaneur, you know person
who's like never trying tointegrate into society.
They're just trying to observeand be authentic to their moment
(56:10):
.
Lara Ayad (56:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you think that there's, I guess?
My next question then, tamar,is if an artist wants to make a
work that is very provocativeand that is not just like, for
instance, you and I apologize,I'm now forgetting his name
Throughout the artist who'sdoing like the Nazi salutes is a
(56:33):
way to make a point, anselmKiefer.
Anselm Kiefer, yes, thank you.
So, anselm Kiefer, youmentioned that he wasn't trying
to be offensive.
That wasn't the goal of thework, even though that might
have been like a kind of sideproduct of his work.
Let's say, an artist wants tomake something that is not just
for the made for the sake ofoffense, but is made to like
(56:54):
make a point, and in the processyou could be upsetting quite a
few people, or even just a verysmall, but very vocal, smaller
group of people, because thatdoes happen.
What, how should, how should amuseum approach something like
that?
You know, like, curator wantsto put their artwork on.
And then there's this wholeissue of like do we censor?
(57:16):
Do we not censor?
What?
What?
What do you think people shoulddo in a situation like that?
Tamar Avishai (57:21):
yeah, well, first of all, keifer did offend a ton
of people like he barely cameback from that professionally,
um, and so that was like areally interesting lesson for
him.
But also, I wouldn't besurprised if he was like a
little edgy and like didn't youknow?
Kind of like he knew he wasdoing something that was
technically illegal, um, inGermany and yet you know still
(57:45):
kind of went for it in that waythat artists can be those kinds
of guys, um, or maybe.
Lara Ayad (57:53):
But I have a, by the way.
I have a hierarchy of artistsand like where they are on the
kind of d-bag scale.
Yeah exactly.
Tamar Avishai (58:02):
I would not want to hang out with Anselm Kiefer.
Lara Ayad (58:06):
I think there's like painters occupy a certain level
and then the sculptors aresomewhere else.
And I'm not going to go beyondthat because I'll get in huge
trouble for saying that, butanyway, yeah, and the video
installation artists.
Tamar Avishai (58:17):
My god, um, how do museums deal with it now?
Well, is now 10 years ago, isnow five years ago, is now today
, my goodness.
Um, you know, 10 years agothere was the still.
(58:40):
You know, you still had kind ofthe last gasps of exhibitions
that were really, you know,propping up art that that could
be outrageous, that could bereally subversive.
I have a catalog that my mystepmother, who wrote a lot.
I, I mean, she's a comparativejewish literature professor, but
(59:02):
she also wrote a lot aboutholocaust memory too.
Um, it was an entire exhibitionon nazi imagery in art, very
kefir-esque actually, in orderto kind of corporatized, a very
(59:23):
specific way of looking at theHolocaust became, you know what
Norman Finkelstein calls theHolocaust industry.
So you know stuff that was justlike, oh, you know, you, you go
through this catalog and it'sjust it's so offensive.
You go through this catalog andit's just it's so offensive,
(59:44):
like, like canisters of Zyklon B, but but they've got like
designer labels on them likeHermes and Chanel, and you know
like, yeah, exactly, I'm lookingat her face right now Like it's
, it's very unsettling, veryupsetting, very disturbing, like
(01:00:04):
a Lego set of Auschwitz, likestuff like that, you know, 15
years ago that was a totallyvalid show.
You know, like, like no onewould have canceled that, even
as upsetting as it is, becauseit was like whoa, this is some
(01:00:25):
art man.
You know, like this is talkingto a very specific issue in
Holocaust memory and like, sure,go for it.
Like they invited a lot ofthese artists to create for it
Five years ago, that show wouldnever, would never, ever, ever,
ever, have been mounted today.
(01:00:50):
Um, I think that there's a bitof a, you know, a sea change, a
vibe shift, like away from theimpulse to censor from five
years ago, that I kind of wonderif people, you know, if the
pendulum might be swinging alittle bit back.
(01:01:12):
I still don't think it would bemounted today, but I don't
think it would have been as asclearly verboten as it would
have been, like, five years ago,um, but museums are constantly
trying to figure out how to stayrelevant, how to get people in
(01:01:32):
the door, how to please both thedonors who give them money and
the social media followers whogive them, uh, like, clout, um,
who are very often very oppositesides of the spectrum.
I would not want to run amuseum today.
I feel like I'd be terrifiedall the time.
(01:01:54):
Um, there are some museums Ithink that have, like I was
before we talked tonight.
I was kind of reading up on thePhilip Guston show that was
delayed, I think it originatedat the National Gallery and then
(01:02:15):
was going to tour around thecountry and here was a a you
know white Jewish artist who hada lot of depictions of Klansmen
in his work and for aninterestingly kind of again,
everything comes back to Kiefer,no wonder he's so famous and
(01:02:37):
rich.
Um, but he also kind of wantedto show like the impotence of
something that was so iconic andsemiotically charged.
You know, he would showKlansmen in very mundane
circumstances and as a way of ofreally kind of like like
(01:03:05):
defanging it, you know, kind oftaking the piss out of them like
, you know, taking somethingthat would have been otherwise
very hard to look at andexposing it for again its own
kind of like unseriousness, likeit's farce, and that was going
(01:03:27):
to be very much part of the showbecause that's very much part
of his work.
And instead the show was likeknee-jerk cancelled because they
just had, you know, theseimages had clans, you know
clansmen imagery in it, nevermind what he was trying to say
(01:03:49):
about it.
Um, and that was like you know,that took all the keyboard
warriors, like that took a lotof artists and you know art
adjacent people who signed thisopen letter who was like come
the fuck on, come on, you know,like this just isn't like you're
you're so willfullymisinterpreting his work and so
(01:04:15):
it ended up kind of gettingrevived and I was able to see it
at the MFA in Boston when itwas there.
And I was able to see it at theMFA in Boston when it was there
.
And you know, there was a lot ofkind of like scaffolding around
the show.
There was like signs for, youknow, kind of like trauma.
(01:04:36):
You know, like if you need abreak, here's a space where you
can go.
You know like if you need abreak, here's a space where you
can go.
And, and you know, here aresome images of like actual clans
rallies, which I don't thinkwere really necessary, but they
were like behind, like not riskkind of putting, like imposing
(01:05:01):
harm onto your fellow visitorsby them seeing it too.
And there was kind of a likewhat do they call it?
Like the Streisand effect, likewhere, when you, you know, like
when you go so far out of yourway to like have to like cancel
something that it's all peoplewant to see.
Um, I felt like there was a waythat.
Lara Ayad (01:05:19):
I didn't know there was a name for that, the
Streisand.
Oh yeah, god bless the internet.
Tamar Avishai (01:05:25):
Um, but it, it.
I remember walking through thatshow and being like let people
have their own experience, evenif it's negative, like even if
there is something traumatizingto it which I don't you know.
I think traumatizing is.
You know, that word doesn'tmean what I think people think
(01:05:47):
it means, but like it's just sooverused.
Lara Ayad (01:05:51):
It's so overused and it's actually pretty offensive
for people who have actuallygone through physical violence
or sexual violence and thingsthat are actually traumatic.
I mean, I'm going to just goout on a limb and say that.
I know I'm probably going tooffend some people by saying
that, but it's just I honestlythink it's very offensive how
overused it's been.
Tamar Avishai (01:06:11):
I agree, I agree and and I you know this was I
saw this show in 2021 or 2022.
2021 or 2022, um, and it was inthe same gallery that in 2017
(01:06:33):
there had been a show.
You know, before, like in thebefore times, um, there had been
a show of henrik ross'sphotographs from the loch ghetto
and I led tours in that gallery.
I did a podcast episode in thatgallery.
That show was tremendous, itwas incredible.
But there were some verygraphic photos in that show of
(01:06:55):
dead children, like close-ups ofdead children.
In order to make the point ofwhat he had access to and what
he photographed, it was thiscombination of you know, he was
like one of the handful ofpeople maybe the only one um, he
(01:07:16):
was assigned to take kind ofpassport photos or like ID
photos not passports but like IDphotos in the ghetto, and so he
was issued a camera and he didthis kind of multi, you know he
took, you see, the ID photosthat he took.
You see the propaganda photosthat he was forced to take of
(01:07:40):
Jews in the ghetto, kind of likehappily, kind of like whistling
while they worked, basically sothat that could then be shown
to the world, like look how wellwe're treating.
You know, it's like look howhappy people are to be part of
our kind of manufacturingprocess, and then he would also
take really clandestine photosof of like the hell that that
actually was.
(01:08:02):
The show was incredible.
There were no black screens.
That says it was wrong then andit's wrong now.
I mean they trusted visitors tomove through it and I remember
I got to the really painfulphotos and I was like I was very
(01:08:26):
affected by them and I knewthat there was like a part of
the gallery that like I couldn'tlook at.
I like I couldn't, you know, andI had to be in there a lot and
it was like, you know, I justdrew this line where it was like
don don't go, don't go nearthere, you know, for kind of
your own mental health.
But I did that.
That was my own copingmechanism, that was my own
(01:08:52):
resilience to still go in.
That was me recognizing my ownboundaries, that I couldn't look
at those photos again, go in.
That was me recognizing my ownboundaries, that I couldn't look
at those photos again.
And I, you know, the museumtrusted me to know my own limits
and I think that putting thembehind a black shutter, you know
(01:09:16):
, putting a sign that says, likeyou can call this
trauma-informed counselor if youreally can't handle it not only
is incredibly disruptive to theexhibition, but it's it's
patronizing you know, like I wasabout to say, it sounds like
they're treating visitors likethey're small children.
Lara Ayad (01:09:39):
Yeah, and children sometimes even will go through
some pretty difficult stuff andwe try our best to protect them
from those things.
But it's kind of a part of lifeand then they grow and we trust
that process to a certainextent.
I mean, there's debates abouthow parenting has also changed
over the past couple of decades.
Tamar Avishai (01:09:58):
That's my other job.
Lara Ayad (01:10:00):
Yeah, that's your other job, but I am very struck
by that, by the way you describethis exhibition about the KKK.
I'm just like don't we trustthat mostly grown adults walking
into these exhibitions aregoing to be able to manage if
(01:10:20):
they have a negative emotion?
It seems to me from what you'resaying, tamara is like I kind
of think about.
Like are we so uncomfortablewith having these very strong
reactions and emotions justgoing about our world?
Like we're going to encounterthings that really upset us,
(01:10:40):
that make us so sad and thatmake us cry and make us angry
and make us really happy?
Like I don't think.
I don't think we should besheltered from those things.
Like living here in Los Angeles,for instance, we just went
through these awful wildfiresand there are people who are I
was okay and there are peoplewho are I was okay.
There are people who are stilldealing with the effects of this
(01:11:01):
and it's like I don't as hardas this has been to see other
people suffer like this.
I can just say for myself Idon't want to be protected from
how terrible the news has beenor images of people's homes
burned down or entireneighborhoods just completely
wiped out.
This has changed the course ofLA history Absolutely and, uh,
(01:11:23):
to try to act like, to try tomaybe put a black shutter on
that, as you were saying would,it would almost I don't know how
to put this it would sterilizeand silence a whole aspect of
Angelino's lives.
That is, frankly, very unfairto the people experiencing it.
(01:11:45):
And I'll just say that rightthere.
Maybe people would disagreewith me, but I do think what
you're saying is reallyimportant, particularly when it
comes to this whole issue of artand censorship and particularly
when it comes to this wholeissue of art and censorship.
Tamar Avishai (01:11:59):
Yeah, well, and resilience is a muscle.
It doesn't, you know, you don'tjust come out of the womb with
this muscle fully formed, but wedo have an incredible ability
to grow it and to exercise it it.
(01:12:26):
And I think that looking foropportunities for people to be
spared from knowing their ownresilience, their own boundaries
is just a real disservice.
Lara Ayad (01:12:35):
Yeah, tamar, what do you hope for in terms of where
artists can play a role insociety and what kind of role
museums should be playing insociety?
Is there anything that youreally hope for?
Tamar Avishai (01:13:11):
um, bravery, um, I hope that artists can kind of
get back to offending peopleagain, um, product of offending
people, and that art is notgoing to last.
But there's a way to encouragea subversion of the way you
(01:13:33):
think the world should look.
That says, but what if itlooked completely opposite?
And you can say, ah, I hatethat, but I, but I never would
have thought about it that way.
Um, and people can make theirown decisions.
You know, maybe this is what Imeant by talking about
(01:13:55):
journalists with emotions, likeI see the role of a journalist
to kind of present the facts andask the audience, ask the
reader, to come to their ownconclusions.
I don't think that's ever goingto happen.
You know, like human naturedepends on groupthink.
(01:14:15):
You know, and you know whereyou sit in your own tribe.
That's a very, very hard thingto break out of.
It takes active participationand you know, like I don't think
democracy and liberal valuesare the way that our brains are
(01:14:35):
naturally wired.
I think it's something that youhave to work for every day.
When people talk about theimportance of diversity, I think
that diverse perspectives are ahuge part of that and I can't
understand, like it doesn't makesense to me that that's gotten
lost in this, this like buzzworddiversity climate, um.
(01:15:01):
So I just want museums, youknow, going back to to how we
started.
If, if it's a museum's job tobe the steward of the art that
comes out of a cultural moment,it has to be all of it, all the
(01:15:22):
good art.
And if an artist is going to bebrave enough to recognize that
there are some reallycomplicated problems going on
right now and some reallycomplicated conversations, and
and be encouraged to just kindof like subvert somebody's
(01:15:44):
thinking, it's theresponsibility of the museum if
it's good to show it to people,and I I just think that there's.
I can't imagine any other wayforward than that.
Lara Ayad (01:16:03):
Yeah, yeah, Tamar.
this was such a fantasticconversation with so much depth
and so much honesty, and you'rewilling to go and we're both,
both canceled, oh my god, yeah,um, no, but I really do think
it's so important to be able togo to these places in a way that
(01:16:24):
is respectful and you'relistening and and that's the
thing that's.
So.
That's why this is so differentthan, say, watching like a
talking head segments, because,like we're, you know, people are
actually listening to eachother and I hope that that's
what listeners can get fromlistening to your episode and
listening to this podcast.
So, thank you very much forbeing on the Cheeky Scholar.
(01:16:44):
It's just such a pleasurehaving you on the show.
Tamar Avishai (01:16:48):
Thank you so much for having me and for
encouraging a conversation ofthis magnitude of honesty.
It's definitely not aconversation I could have had
five years ago, so I'm gratefulfor even with everything that's
that's gone on in the last fiveyears and in the last five
(01:17:08):
months.
In the last five minutes, Idon't know, I haven't my my
phone's been on do not disturbfor this whole hour, so who
knows how, like what else is whoknows if there's been another
regime change?
you know yeah exactly, um, but II appreciate that you know I
can talk to somebody like youand and the truth is, most
(01:17:31):
people, when they have aone-on-one opportunity to talk
to each other, there's a lotmore sanity individually in
these conversations than thereare in big group.
Um, you know opinions thatyou're supposed to have and on
social media, and it's like it'svery reassuring to know that,
(01:17:52):
like maybe we can take what'sbeen oversimplified in this time
and like return the complexityto it.
Lara Ayad (01:18:07):
Wonder what professors yak about.
After a couple of beers, pointthat monkey digit at your phone
and hit the subscribe button.
You'll get the newest episodesdelivered right to your favorite
podcast app.
Thanks for joining us on theCheeky Scholar and until next
time, keep it real and keep itcheeky.
Hello everyone, welcome to the Cheeky Scholar.
This is the podcast where smartand cheeky scholars share their
knowledge about history, artand culture and bust a whole lot
of myths along the way.
I'm your host, dr Lara Ayad.
If you're new to the show,thanks for joining us today and
(00:31):
if you've listened before,welcome back.
For this episode.
I had a chance to sit down withTamar Avishai.
Tamar is the creator and hostof the Lonely Palette podcast.
Now, if you've listened to theLonely Palette before, you know
that Tamar is the creator andhost of the Lonely Palette
podcast.
Now, if you've listened to theLonely Palette before, you know
that Tamar goes around theBoston Museum of Fine Arts with
a microphone and she interviewsunsuspecting passersby, asking
(00:54):
them what they think of theartworks that are on display,
what the artworks look like andhow it affects them emotionally.
Tamar also goes deep into thehistory of the artworks that are
on display, providing culturalcontext.
She ultimately brings arthistory to the masses.
If you haven't checked out theshow, I highly recommend you go
ahead and search for it in yourpodcast feed.
(01:17):
So I was really excited to sitdown with Tamar and talk about
art and, in particular, to talkabout what the role of the
artist is in society today andwhat the role of art museums
should be.
For instance, we talked aboutquestions like should museums
exhibit art that some peopleconsider offensive, and is
censorship always the answer toart that could be considered
(01:40):
offensive or having offensiveimagery, and when does
censorship go too far?
Coming out of the conversation,I kept thinking about what
Tamar said about artists,because she argues that artists
are journalists with emotions.
She also says that museumsshould steward art as a
reflection of society.
Both the good and the bad parts.
(02:00):
So stay tuned for this one.
I think you're going to reallylike it.
The bad parts so stay tuned forthis one.
I think you're going to reallylike it.
So, tamar, welcome to the CheekyScholar.
How are you doing?
Tamar Avishai (02:22):
Thank you, I'm not bad.
I'm eight months pregnant, soI'm a little achy, but otherwise
the flesh is weak but thespirit is willing.
Lara Ayad (02:27):
That's such a good way of putting it.
Well, congratulations again onyour expecting.
That's incredible, yeah, yeah.
And I know you're growing thefamily too, right?
So this is not your first rodeo.
Tamar Avishai (02:38):
No, this is my third, third and final.
Oh, my goodness, ladders beingpulled up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lara Ayad (02:45):
Well, yeah, yeah, well, that's very exciting.
Congratulations, thank you.
Yeah, so I understand.
So, first of all, I just wantto say to Mar, I want to give a
shout out because when I wasfirst thinking about doing this
podcast, you were one of thefirst people I turned to to ask
for advice on how to create oneand everything, and you gave me
(03:06):
such good advice, including, youknow, a lot of.
You told me a lot of peoplethink that they should make a
podcast based on what they wantto say, but you told me make a
podcast based on what you'd wantto hear as a podcast listener,
and that was one of the bestpieces of advice that I've ever
gotten.
So thank you for that.
Tamar Avishai (03:24):
Oh, I'm so glad.
Lara Ayad (03:25):
It's been really inspirational and it's actually
given me concrete direction andwhere to take this project.
Tamar Avishai (03:32):
So yeah, that's awesome oh.
I'm so glad to hear that thatwas a hard one lesson myself and
I think that's actuallysomething that so many
podcasters it's like like nojudgment, you know, I mean why.
Why make a podcast if you don'tfeel like you have something to
say?
Um, but if you want people tolisten, you gotta know to what
(03:56):
they want to hear.
And I think that's strikingthat balance, because you don't
want to be totally captured byyour audience and you don't.
You don't want to be totallycaptured by your audience and
you don't want to make somethingthat you know like you censor
yourself or you, you know, youkind of take on a persona that
isn't you in order to increaseyour audience.
I mean that's no good either.
(04:17):
You have to find that balance.
Lara Ayad (04:19):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I'm sure that as
things go along, I'll even finda way to kind of carve my place
even more, while also speakingto an audience.
So, yeah, that's great advice.
Tamar Avishai (04:32):
So hopefully we'll be all.
Lara Ayad (04:34):
Yes, yes, hopefully crossing our fingers.
So, tamar, what is really coolabout this conversation is we're
both have backgrounds in arthistory, right, and I know you
are.
You are the host of the LonelyPalette podcast.
I love the name of that podcastand I know that you have kind
of gotten back into launchingsome new episodes, so maybe
(04:56):
first tell us, like what youhave, you know, kind of on the
docket for what's coming up andwhat audiences can expect for
what's coming up and whataudiences can expect.
Tamar Avishai (05:04):
Well, I've been away for a while and so I feel
like I'm kind of simultaneouslykind of to the brim with what I
would love to put out there andreally dive into and episode
ideas that I've had for yearsand years and I've been kind of
gathering tape, you know, justkind of here and there to
(05:26):
someday make the episode, andalso feeling really rusty, like
really out of practice.
I've spent the last year almostand a half like year and a bit
away from the Lonely Palettebecause I've just been really
trying to build up my ownfreelance audio business and
(05:47):
portfolio.
I've been making a lot of audiofor other people and it's been
incredibly educational, bendingand evolving and growing, based
on having worked with so manyother audio producers and and
(06:09):
also kind of being the audioproducer who helps shape someone
else's voice, um, but now I'mI'm kind of taking that back to
my roots and trying to figureout you, you know how best to
make, you know how how muchbetter I can make my show and
and you know how, like, how muchbetter of a producer I can be
(06:36):
in that show.
But I'm also like, like,somewhere in there, I'm also an
art historian and I find myselfan art historian and I find
myself, you know, like, okay, soit's, it's 2025.
I officially graduated fromcollege 20 years ago.
Um, that's a long time to beaway from the field.
(06:58):
Um, I mean, I got a master'safter that.
So I guess I guess I can onlystart the clock at 2008 when I
finished my master's.
But, like I, you know, the lasttime I really, you know, kind
of did the university likebreadth over depth thing.
I think art historians hadreally different priorities and
(07:22):
really different concerns.
Art historians had reallydifferent priorities and really
different concerns.
And you know my, my departmentat uh, the university of Toronto
where I did my undergrad hadreally different professors, you
know, and, and professors whostudied very specific things
that now have been quitediversified.
(07:43):
That it wasn't when I was there.
So I'm starting to recognizethat I don't know, there's like
a little bit of old fart inthere.
In my education I'm tempted tosay puts the art in old fart,
but that's so terrible andcheesy, but there you go.
Lara Ayad (07:59):
No, no, I like it.
I like it.
The Lonely Palate it puts theart in old fart.
But that's so terrible andcheesy, but there you go.
No, no, I like it.
Tamar Avishai (08:04):
I like it, the lonely palette it puts.
It puts the old, the art andold fart, um, but that's.
You know, when I talk toundergrad classes now, I realize
I've been away a long time andthe industry has changed a lot,
like the field, the disciplinehas changed a lot and the way
that art history is taught haschanged a lot.
And you know, maybe I kind ofrepresent a small piece of that
(08:27):
which is cool, but yeah, so soyou know, like in the birdcage
it's like.
So all of that has just comeout through my eyes.
Lara Ayad (08:47):
Tamar, because the way I see your show, the Lonely
Palate, is, even though I knowyou don't necessarily identify
traditionally as a scholar inthe more kind of traditional
sense, I do- I identify as acheeky scholar.
As a cheeky scholar.
Oh my god, I love that.
I love that.
I'm so proud to have you as,like one of the guests on the
show Absolutely a cheeky scholar.
So that's the thing is likeyour show the Lonely Palate
(09:09):
brings.
It is bringing art history tothe masses.
I know that's like one thingyou have really felt very
passionate about and you know,having this kind of I guess you
could almost like a digitalhumanities project of bringing
this art historical analysis toa more public platform on a
podcast.
You don't need to be going tocollege, you don't need to pay
for expensive college classes tolearn in depth about one
(09:30):
artwork or another as you'relistening to the podcast, or be
in the museum, for that matter.
Or to be in the museum, and Iknow when you had started the
podcast, you were going aroundmostly the Boston Museum of Fine
Arts and really focusing on oneartwork there on display and
starting off each episode justasking passersby and people
visiting what do you think ofthe work, what does it look like
(09:52):
, Describe it, what kind ofimpact does it have on you?
And it's such a provocative andalso very thoughtful way to
engage with art that you are notlooking at the artwork by
listening to the episode, butyou are listening to people's
experiences of the artwork andthe way they visually described.
So you have to imagine whatthat looks like and there's
(10:15):
something about that that.
Okay, yeah, you need the formalanalysis of looking at the
visual qualities of an artwork,but there's also this deeply
imaginative and also the kind ofa cultural collective aspect to
art history that comes through,I think, in the Lonely Palette.
Tamar Avishai (10:33):
Thank you.
No, I love thinking about itthat way.
You know I still, I still seethe object in person, you know,
95% of the time, and you knowrecord people's first responses
to it, and you know I say thisall the time but like you don't
(10:55):
hear all the people who say no,I don't want to be recorded,
because they are so worried thatthey're going to be on the hook
to say something reallyprofound when that's exactly.
You know, I can't say it enough, Like it doesn't have to.
You don't have to know anythingabout this artwork, please.
Any interpretation is actuallylike it hurts, it doesn't help,
(11:16):
Like just describe what you see,and uh, and still, people are
very uncomfortable talking aboutart in that kind of um, that
kind of environment, and so thatalways reinforces to me why a
show you know I'm not going tosay why my show needs to exist,
but like why an approach to arthistory that I find so
(11:38):
compelling needs to exist too,in order to get people to
understand how very human theseartworks are and that anybody
telling them that that it's notfor them to understand without a
PhD they're the failures, youknow, like they're the ones who
(11:59):
are kind of misinterpreting thework and.
I speak for all of us arthistorians.
They're like if, if, that, like, if that's the story that
people are getting, it's theincorrect one.
Lara Ayad (12:10):
Yeah, so this is so interesting to Mar because it's
when I think about sciencemuseums, for instance.
You know they often tend to.
If you notice, science museumstend to, in contrast to art
museums.
Science museums tend to attractfamilies with kids and people
going there.
You don't have to be ascientist to go to a science
(12:31):
museum.
Everybody knows that You'regoing there to learn about
things you don't know.
Why do you think that artmuseums seem to have a very
different place in our societythat we're not.
We're not.
A lot of people are notnecessarily going to art museums
to learn in that same way.
What do you think is going onthere?
Tamar Avishai (12:51):
Yeah, now that reminds me of of, uh, I was
talking to an art critic who wassaying that, um, the only other
, the only other place besidesart museums in in kind of
cultural spaces where people areexpected to kind of know the
story going in, is the sportspage of the newspaper and how
(13:13):
it's like we don't you know,people who are into sports don't
realize that somebody who isnot following sports at all like
it.
It's, it's varsity level, likeyou pick up the sports page and
it's like well, I don't, I don'tknow the context of all of this
.
You know it's like this is,this is not for me if you don't
already follow it.
And I always thought that was areally great comparison.
(13:35):
I mean, look, science museums.
I would imagine, if you wouldcompare the missions or the
mission statement of any sciencemuseum as compared to an art
museum, they're going to havesome really fundamentally
different mandates that ascience museum will always put
(13:58):
education first, because that'swhat that space is for.
They're not actually, you know,conducting like, like high
level scientific experiments.
They're breaking it down andturning everything into play,
and that's the purpose of aspace like that.
The mission of most art museumsis to be stewards of these
(14:19):
objects.
It's to collect, preserve, youknow, like and educate.
But that's always, it's likeusually the last one, and it's
only really recently thateducation even was part of the
mission of art museums.
Up until that point it wasabout stewardship and preserving
(14:42):
these objects from generationto generation so for people to
kind of come in and expect like,you know, it's not like they're
gonna touch them or handle theartworks or you know it's like,
oh, that's what a Monet feelslike.
I mean, you know that whateveryou can learn from that, which
actually wouldn't be nothing, I,I think that you know you could
(15:04):
learn a lot from, kind of likefeeling the texture of the paint
.
Can you imagine Totally?
Lara Ayad (15:09):
You know you'd be amazed, tamar.
I've actually.
I remember one time.
I'm trying to remember where Iwas.
I might have been at theWalters Art Museum in Baltimore,
maryland.
This was years ago, back when Iwas like barely even in grad
school, and I saw they had someancient egyptian artworks,
including like a sculpture of a.
I think it was um a portrait ofa pharaoh, but a pharaoh as
(15:30):
like a sort of sphinx figure andit was like I don't know about
small to medium size and one guyjust like was walking by it and
he just like kind of liketouched it and like scratched
the base and then just like keptwalking and I was like and
rubbed its nose for good luck.
Tamar Avishai (15:47):
Yeah, it's like.
Lara Ayad (15:47):
That's why those statues always have, like, shiny
noses and shiny boobs, for somereason, as people are always
rubbing the wrong parts of theor the right parts of the
sculpture.
But it's all just to say.
It's so interesting how ourreaction to that too is oh no,
you're ruining the artwork.
You know like there is thissort of presumption of like
stewarding.
(16:08):
You know being stewards ofthese objects.
Tamar Avishai (16:11):
You know, like again you go into a science
museum, those you know, thosemusical stairs or those you know
those little like balls thatlike all light up with the
electricity from your hand andmake your hair.
You know, those aren'tthousands of years old, those
aren't 500 years old.
You know, those are made for theexperience of play and
(16:32):
education.
And so, you know, in that way Iunderstand why art museums are
just fundamentally differentspaces.
You know, like just becausethey're all museums doesn't mean
that they are doing the samething.
And so you know, that said, itgoes a little far when art
(16:55):
historians take theconnoisseurship piece of their
jobs, you know, know, when theyprioritize it over the education
piece.
And I think that people havejust kind of accepted that, like
, visitors kind of feel like,well, if I'm not the expert here
(17:18):
, it's not for me to.
You know, I, you know how manypeople have you talked to?
It's like, well, I don't knowif it's good.
You know, I, I don't know art,like I like it, but I don't, you
know, it's not for me to say,and, and you know, I am not a
curator, I'm not a connoisseur,I am an educator.
So those are the people I wantto talk to and there are
(17:43):
curators doing their jobs andconservators doing their jobs,
and preparators doing their jobs, and me, you know, and all the
people like me who are reallyinterested in kind of being the
conduit between the you know,the incredibly human story of
(18:03):
the people who made this workand the complicated times that
they lived in, and people whohappen to be on the planet now
experiencing these objects, whoare also living through a really
complicated time, and findingthat point of connection between
the two and giving peoplepermission to relate to them.
Lara Ayad (18:25):
Yeah, you know what's a good example of that that
comes to mind for you, Maybe anartwork.
Say that you think is wow, thisis such a human creation and
this is something that nowadayswe, in our complicated times,
could learn something from orconnect to in some way.
Tamar Avishai (18:46):
I mean, maybe this is front of mind for me
just because of my, my delicatecondition, um, but I love
walking into a Louise Bourgeoisgallery and seeing people be
absolutely repulsed, and seeingpeople be absolutely repulsed
and sharing a certain amount ofthat repulsion, but they don't
(19:13):
know why it's like they feellike, and you know she's not
looking outside of her, you knowshe's not like Katie Kovitz,
you know I mean she's not kindof basing her work on the
context of war.
Andise bourgeois is interestedin her own body.
She's interested in bodies,bodies, bodies, bodies, and and
(19:33):
she has some reallyextraordinary, um, pregnant
bodies.
That my favorite is is one I Iforgot what the actual name is,
it's something goddess, but it'slike meant to be kind of um, uh
, kind of subversive and cheeky.
(19:53):
Um, and the one that she doeswhen she's younger and has a lot
of anxiety around pregnancy isis like made of brass or or
something very, very hard andand unappealing, you know, I
mean it's, it's beautiful, it'ssmooth, but it's like it's very
(20:18):
intentionally not soft.
And then she revisited it whenshe was in her like 80s and it
was, and she made the samesculpture but in in like pink
felt, and I love that evolutionof hers because it's like the
(20:40):
same evolution that anybody youknow anybody goes through
themselves when they have kids.
Like that it goes from thisincredible place of anxiety to
if I had only known that Ididn't have to be so scared.
You know, like that, there's awhich you can't, you can't know,
(21:00):
you know you do it.
There's a which you can't, youcan't know, you know, you, you
do it.
You only do it for the firsttime, once, thank God, and then
any subsequent time it never hasto be for the first time again,
but it's like you can see herown evolution there and suddenly
(21:25):
it makes her work, which againis like like it can be really
revolting.
I feel like that softens, it,humanizes, it, makes it
incredibly accessible.
If you were to see those twosculptures side by side and and
apply it, you know kind ofproject your own life and
experience onto that, if that'ssomething you've experienced.
Lara Ayad (21:45):
That's really interesting too, and just for
some background for thelisteners, louise Bourgeois was
pretty active in the 80s, Ibelieve that's.
She's an American artist, gotreally active in the 80s and she
still is active as an artist.
She went back to this artworkit sounds like in the 80s and so
, yeah, she's coming from a verydifferent context than, say,
someone like Kathy Kolowitz thatyou brought up before, but it
(22:07):
is.
It is kind of incredible howartwork, without using text,
without using words, butactually through the use of
things like texture and colorand things like that, can evoke
such strong reactions based, youknow, depending on, like, where
you are in life and what you'rebringing to the table.
(22:28):
So it's not just about theartist with a capital A, you
know, bringing meaning to the,to the passive vessel, viewer,
it's.
It's more actually aninteresting kind of quiet
dialogue, if you will, betweenthe person encountering the
artwork and then the artworkitself and, in a way, the artist
(22:49):
too, as maybe a third party.
Yeah, yeah, that's reallyfascinating.
So so what then?
You know, kind of stepping backto and looking at museums and
looking at artists.
I mean, those, these, these are, of course, we're talking about
art, museums and where they'reoverlapping, but maybe we can
step back to and I'm curious toask you, tamar, what do you
(23:13):
think the role of the artist isin today's society?
And you mentioned like we livein a complicated world.
I know it's a big question, butwhat do you think should be the
role of an artist in today'ssociety?
Tamar Avishai (23:31):
I think the role of the artist in today's society
is the same as the role of theartist has been for the last 200
years, ever since artists weregiven a kind of intellectual and
philosophical and financialautonomy to to create what they
(23:54):
want, um, and to respond to theworld that they're observing.
Um, you know, that's when youstart to see the artists who my
my grad school advisor.
She always loved the idea ofthe.
I mean she, she focusedspecifically on on mid 19th
century Paris, but the, theSalton bank, like the um or the
(24:17):
Flanner, or you know somebodywho kind of exists on the
outskirts of society andobserves, exists on the
outskirts of society andobserves, and that the, the.
I feel like artists arejournalists with emotions.
(24:39):
I feel like they look at theworld around them and they
create based on how it affectsthem and they tell the story of
their moment.
They can be completelysubjective about it, they can be
(25:02):
activists, but they have aresponsibility to tell that
story correctly and withoutcensoring themselves.
And so it's really importantthat an artist just capture
(25:26):
something very, very authenticabout the moment that they're
living in, even if that's notthe whole story, even if that's
their story, but to be reallytruthful about their own
experience that way and to havesome talent in the application
(25:53):
of materials to, you know, to tonot just have a very profound
insight but to be able toexpress it in a way that will
make people look.
You know that that thatrequires a very specific kind of
gift, artistic gift, but I, youknow, I guess that kind of begs
the question like what anartist shouldn't do Make ugly
(26:20):
art that doesn't make you wantto look.
Well, louise Bourgeois made thatrevolting art and it made you
look right, it doesn't certainlydoesn't have to be pretty, if
anything really pretty artpeople will buy, and that's a
different business model thankind of being, you know, being
(26:44):
the kind of artist who is hailedas the kind of genius who's
able to kind of like put theirfinger on the pulse of the
moment and get you know, likehave museums be interested in
what they do, but like, look,museums are businesses too.
I mean, there's no, nobody haslike super clean hands, and
especially not artists, but likethere's there's no arbiter in
(27:11):
the moment that says, oh okay,you're great, you're shit.
You know, you've said itbrilliantly your derivative.
You know you need some timeaway, you need some distance to
kind of look at what is going tolast, because it's very hard to
kind of know what any societyis going to say okay, this
(27:35):
really was the most importantauthentic moment to capture.
So it's, you know, it's kind ofit's like it duels itself.
You know there's a battle therebetween between the ability to
capture the moment as it's beinglived and take and, like
historians, taking a step backand being like, well, was that
(27:55):
the most important moment tocapture?
and I think that that's what arthistorians and historians
really struggle with.
I think that that's a reallycomplicated part of the job.
Is, you know, determining whoseauthenticity is going to speak
loudest?
You know, for the moment, thatit's representing.
Lara Ayad (28:19):
Right, and there's even this whole issue, too, of
artists that will maybe try toget their works into galleries
and into museums based on whatthey think not just curators but
also directors and donors willwant to see in a museum, and
that can be very complicated and, quite frankly, socially and
(28:42):
politically charged as well,right?
So there's a whole other layerto that as well, and artists
have always been.
I think you're bringing up theemergence of this new role for
an artist 200 years ago isreally interesting, because
artists for thousands of yearshave been making art to make
ends meet, put bread on thetable.
You were, you know.
(29:04):
I know that in parts of Europeprior to the early modern period
, or prior to at least even theearly 1800s, there wasn't really
a common word for artist theway that we use it today.
Right, it was usually acraftsperson or a craftsman, and
they were making art for apatron who paid to make an
artwork that filled a religiousor practical function.
(29:26):
Right?
So this artist the way weunderstand it today, with, like
the capital A, the genius thatmakes an artwork to express
themselves or to speak to a,there's an economic factor still
, even after thousands of years,but that, the, that the, the,
(29:51):
the playground is kind ofshifted Right, is a really good
example of an artist thatperhaps pushes boundaries,
really authentically expressesthemselves and fills that role
in the way you were talkingabout just earlier.
Tamar Avishai (30:23):
I don't have the same experience with living
artists as I do with deadartists, because I am a
modernist um with a capital m.
So you know, kind of 18 like,so like 1950 is my cutoff, but
(30:46):
two artists who I feel like have, I mean I kind of wonder if
it's cheating to say somebodylike Anselm Kiefer, who is
probably one of the most famousand richest living artists today
.
So you know, he has, he has anexperience that is not, you know
(31:07):
, that's like saying likeBeyonce, you know, I mean there
there are a lot of othermusicians out there who are
struggling and are talented andmaybe even more talented, you
know.
But it's like, but I feel likeKiefer, because I personally
have have put so much of my ownkind of scholarly energy into
(31:28):
post-Holocaust representation,like I find that his work as a
German born in 1945, constantlytrying to grapple maybe not as
much anymore, but it certainlywas a huge part of his career,
for kind of the formative partof his career he was really
(31:48):
really trying to understand whatit meant to grow up in a
society filled with shame andatonement and be born into that
and that and take something likethe Nazi salute, you know kind
(32:12):
of be like be born intosomething where just this way
that you can put your hand canget you arrested and you're
you're a kid and you kind of.
You know like we don't, wedon't tend to give a whole lot
of kind of our own mental realestate to the afterlives and the
after generations of theperpetrators, because you know,
(32:33):
that's like not of this.
You know of like doing the Nazisalute in front of like a tree,
like in front of the ocean andand showing how impotent it was
(33:02):
when it's just one person tryingto understand its power.
And he didn't do it to be likehe's, he knew it was outrageous,
but that wasn't the point.
You know he wasn't trying tooffend, he was trying to
(33:22):
understand.
You know, kind of looking backat his own hand, like where is
the offense here?
Because of course it's thereand of course there's this
incredible semiotic power.
I mean, god, we, we are kind ofin that moment right now, how
you know whether or not, whetheror not you know the, the hand,
(33:46):
hand gestures we've seen, um,you know is is meant to do that,
like he was wrestling with thatin in a very, I feel, authentic
way and from there he reallydives into the poetry of the
(34:06):
Holocaust survivor, paul Celan,and trying, trying, trying,
layer, layer, layer, tounderstand what it means to
articulate tragedy.
And so you know that, like Idon't know, I kind of fall into
(34:35):
his work and I'm just sofascinated by how he you know
how his brain works like, how hewraps his brain around these
ideas or maybe doesn't even knowwhere he's going when he starts
.
He just, you know, just justlayers materials upon materials.
And another artist who I thinkis able to really articulate the
(34:57):
moment is Carrie Mae Weems.
I find her photography to be sobeautifully humane and, you
know, like her kitchen tableseries, it, it, it's so
(35:19):
beautiful, it's so like Iremember looking at her work,
especially in 2020.
And in that moment where it wasvery, very important to
delineate, to kind of draw linesand to use very specific
(35:41):
categorizations to determine whois allowed to tell what story,
and I think, in some moreproductive ways, we've moved
past that, like I think peoplehave kind of recognized that
there's there are kind ofstrategic and tactical
limitations to division, eveneven as we recognize the value
(36:07):
of lived experience and notknowing what you don't know.
In a way that that has beenvery important and I hope that's
what, that's what stays in theculture, even as we kind of get
past the, the separateness.
But then I would look at herkitchen table series and I would
see an artist and this is justher take where she was like,
(36:31):
look at how much we all have incommon, you know.
Look at how my family, my Blackfamily, sitting around our
kitchen table is exactly thesame as your white table sitting
around your kitchen table, andwe have all the same complicated
dynamics and you have, like youknow, mothers and daughters and
(36:54):
and you know, like, like she iskind of the sun or you know,
she and the pendant light inthat series is the sun around
which everyone else circles.
And so you see her with, likeher husband and them kind of
(37:14):
having, you know, kind ofmundane interactions and also
very loaded interactions, andyou see that same with her own
children and you see that withher parents and it's just like
she is a human being living herlife.
And granted, you know she'smodeling, like she's.
It's not really her, it's notreally her life.
But I am so moved by the scenesthat she stages in that series
(37:46):
and I feel like I I really,really connect to what she's
trying to say about our sharedhumanity and that was very like
I.
I clung to that like a liferaft in 2020.
Lara Ayad (38:03):
In a life raft in a tumultuous, raging ocean storm.
That it's kind of interestingbecause, although we are, we're
really past the pandemic and yetwe are still in these very
complicated times, and I amreally struck by how we're just
(38:25):
barely coming to terms with theidea that actually, okay, yes,
identity can be important,positionality can be important,
but, just like everything elsein the world, it can have its
limitations, and when you take acertain idea too far, what you
can?
I had one friend of mine whodescribed a certain I guess you
(38:48):
could say sociopolitical sosociocultural political stances
as being like a spectrum, and aspectrum is really like a circle
, right, so you've got like theinfrared and you've got the
ultraviolet.
They're at the opposite ends ofthe spectrum, but it's a circle
that one bleeds into the other,and if you start going too far
in one direction, it's going togo into the other.
(39:09):
And I love that analogy,because here we go with an art,
historical, visual analogy.
I love that analogy, though,because I think it's um, I think
it really does capture in thiscase, where this insistence on
we are different from you, wehave nothing in common with you
(39:29):
or with these other people orthose people over there, starved
for a sense of like.
Well, what are we fighting for?
Like, who can we relate to?
You talked about sharedhumanity, and I really do.
I really do think that.
(39:49):
I really do think that art hasa particular power, like Carrie
Mae Weems' work, in helping usunderstand.
Oh, we have a lot more incommon than we have different
Like.
The differences are important,yes, but we have a lot more in
common, and recognizing theimportance of that commonality
(40:11):
could be the antidote to so manyof the problems that we are
facing today no-transcript.
Tamar Avishai (40:42):
The worst ones are the ones that try to ape Dr
Seuss but can't like.
He is a genius, he is a.
You know the musicality of hisrhymes and the and his cadences
like they're just perfect andit's such a pleasure to read.
You know, not like one fish,two fish, red fish, blue fish,
which is like 50 pages too long.
(41:03):
But you know, the ones that aregreat are genius.
And we just got a whole newbatch, so we got Yertle, the
Turtle and Sneetches and theseare unbelievably progressive
(41:24):
stories.
It's really powerful.
I mean, the Butter Battle bookis a good one, like it's kind of
like thought to be hispolitical one because it's so
clearly about the Cold War, butSneetches is about and like,
stop me if, if, like this isobvious, um, but but Sneetches
(41:47):
is about.
You know these two.
You know these like animalslike, uh, you know like they're,
they're Dr Seuss creations, butone.
You know they all look the same, except half of them have stars
on their bellies and they turnthat into this like caste system
(42:08):
where if you don't have thestar, you're left out.
And you know that the childrenwith the stars won't play with
the children without the stars.
And so it's like justunderstood that the sneetches
without stars without they don'thave a star on our bellies um,
are second-class citizens intheir society.
(42:30):
And this like huckster comes totown with a machine that puts
stars on people's on sneetchbellies and they all pay to get
the stars on.
And then the ones who have thestars are like, well, we can't
have this.
So he's like, oh, it's okay, Ihave another machine that takes
stars off and then the onewithout the stars still kind of
(42:52):
like work their way higher upand they just spend like days
and days going in and out ofmachines until finally nobody
knows who was who, and it bringstheir society together.
And then you have, like Yertlethe turtle.
Where Yertle is?
This like mean turtle king whostacks like a thousand turtles
(43:16):
so that he can see really high,and the one at the bottom who's
been kind of like I don't wantto like make a fuss, but like
this really hurts, like finallyhe's just like over it and he
burps and the whole thing justfalls down and it's like this
incredibly like Marxistwonderful story.
And I was thinking I promisethis all has a point, not just
(43:39):
that art can be, you know, evenart for kids can be, you know,
incredibly powerful.
But I was thinking about how Ifound in my old box of books to
think that I saw it on MulberryStreet, which, during that
really crazy time in 2020, whenyou know know kind of identity
(44:00):
melted people's brains um, thatbook was, uh, taken off the
shelves because it was.
It came out in the 30s and thereare some drawings of like some
caricatured you know, like acaricature of a Chinese guy like
waving chopsticks or somethingI mean, like that's kind of
(44:22):
considered, like that was enoughthat the estate of Dr Seuss was
pressured to stop publishingthat book, and I was really glad
to find my own copy of itbecause you can't really get it
anymore.
And I thought to myself whatworld are we living in, where
(44:43):
you have the same writer whowrites the Lorax and Sneetches
and Yertle, the Turtle and theButter Battle Book and who is
able to take these incrediblycomplex ideas about the
importance of shared humanityand of of, you know,
(45:06):
diversifying your worldview andmaking room for everybody,
because there is space foreverybody and not treating
anybody as though they're morevalid or higher up than anyone
else, and he's fucking canceledbecause of a of a drawing that
he did in the 30s.
When you know, like I I'm notdefending it but like, come on,
(45:32):
that is such a deliberate blindeye to the larger contributions
of this man to the world and hisart and that kind of thinking
really opened my eyes to whatfelt like the real kind of
(45:56):
flattened incoherence of thisactivist movement and that I
couldn't, that it didn't feelserious hmm, it didn't feel
serious in in what sense like isthere something maybe about it,
tamara, that you kind ofinterpreted or experiences maybe
a little inauthentic, or likewhere?
(46:19):
I think it was looking for easywins and okay, nothing that is
being tackled in the identitypolitics game right now is easy,
and to take pleasure in thekind of mob cancellation of a
(46:42):
willful of like, willfulmisinterpretation.
You know, like we, we talked alot, we all thought a lot about,
um, impact versus intention,and I think I would have gone
into 2020 thinking that onlyintention mattered, and in that
(47:07):
way, my thinking was reallycomplicated.
You know like I realizedactually impact matters a lot
too, um, but to only focus onimpact and not intention is just
as, as you know, facile in theother direction.
(47:32):
Um and so that to me felt likeyou're not really taking this
seriously.
Like this is, you know, like ina in succession, when he's just
like you're not serious people,like if you're just looking for
what can fit on a picket sign.
You're not really taking theseincredibly complicated, nuanced
(47:53):
problems all that seriously.
Lara Ayad (47:56):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting because you
mentioned, you know, those,those caricatures of Chinese
people.
I mean, I don't agree with them.
They stink Right, but at thesame time, like what might be?
You know, dr Seuss alsocontributed so many other great
things in literature and didsuch a phenomenal job with just
changing the landscape ofchildren's books and children's
(48:17):
writing, and he really is anartist, was an artist.
What might be a more productiveway of approaching you know,
whether or not you choose topublish a book, like, let's say,
you continue publishing thebooks with these caricatures,
could it, would it be possibleto say, should we just like,
kind of like, put it out there,not say anything about it?
(48:38):
Should we give some context forsome things?
Because he was writing some ofthese in the 1930s and it was a
different time?
What do you think of that?
Like how, in other words, Iguess my question is if somebody
made art that is kind ofoffensive, it is offensive and
was intended to stereotype orcharacter a whole group of
people, how could we look at ittoday in a way where we're not
(49:02):
sterilizing our world of art bytaking it out completely?
But is there perhaps anotherway we could approach it?
Tamar Avishai (49:12):
Look, you know, my son wanted to watch Peter Pan
the other day and so we poppedit on and there was that black
screen at the beginning thatgave that disclaimer about.
You know, what you're about towatch is like deeply racist.
It was wrong then and it'swrong now.
I mean, my husband and I kindof joke about those, like
honestly, because and I don'twant to sound like I'm not
(49:34):
taking this seriously Like Irecognize that that language has
to be incredibly workshoppedand it reads as though it is.
You know there are people whoare going to see stuff that they
weren't expecting.
That is not particularly savoryand, you know, has, like, has
(49:57):
been deemed offensive or is nowbeing seen for how offensive it
really was.
In our contemporary society.
It just happened all at oncethat it's hard to kind of look
at that.
You know we were watching likeMuppet Show episodes that also,
too, are.
You know there's a kind of like.
You know we grew up in the liketomboy free-to-be-you-and-me
(50:22):
world.
Lara Ayad (50:23):
Yeah, like 80s, 90s kind of yeah.
Tamar Avishai (50:26):
Yeah, like we all kind of feel like, you know,
like content of one's characteris what matters anyway, is what
matters anyway.
However, you know, again, thatdoesn't take into account that
that people move through theworld in very different ways
(50:48):
from each other and and youwouldn't know that, you don't
know what you don't know aboutthe way that other people are
experiencing the world, or youknow, I mean, I I kind of
hesitate to like bring up likemicroaggressions, but like it's
true, it's real, you know, and,and I kind of hesitate to like
bring up like microaggressions,but like it's true, it's real,
you know, and things that youdon't realize until you talk to
people, and it's like Jesus, Inever saw that.
(51:10):
And they're like yeah, no, youwouldn't have.
And it's like like that's,that's true, you know, like okay
, yeah.
But you know at the same timethe Muppet Show it, but you know
at the same time the MuppetShow.
It's like you know to have abig black screen in front of it
(51:30):
that says it was wrong then andit's wrong now.
I mean, it was the Muppet Show,it was genius.
So you know like we take itwith a grain of salt.
But anyway, he wants to watchPeter Pan.
Peter Pan is a really like.
Nobody comes out of Peter Pancovered in glory.
um you know, it's true somesuper racist stereotypes in
(51:50):
there and and in a way you cankind of appreciate the, the
childlike perspective of kind ofcategorizing people into groups
and almost seeing the worst ofthem, like what's scariest about
every different group.
You know if you really want tolike dig into the you know the
(52:14):
psychology of Peter Pan, likethat's you know you could do
that.
But if you're a kid and you'rewatching it and you see, you
know the way that NativeAmericans are depicted.
Lara Ayad (52:25):
Right, yes, now I remember that.
Tamar Avishai (52:28):
Yeah, what makes the red man red?
I mean, you know, and no adultis kind of like it's not really
how we talk about people anymore.
You know, like it was wrongthen and it's wrong now.
Lara Ayad (52:41):
You know, like that's .
Tamar Avishai (52:42):
That is a valid conversation, and so what I
think is so important is thatconversation.
And you can't have thatconversation if things are just
removed from Disney Plus quietly, or, you know, if a Dr Seuss
(53:03):
book is taken off the shelf andI again I feel like that black
screen and that workshoplanguage can be a little clumsy
and corporate, but it is farpreferable to taking the art
away.
That is the worst thing you cando and I will say that till my
(53:24):
throat is sore.
You know, you, you can't fightbad ideas with censorship.
You fight bad speech with goodspeech, with better speech.
Um, and I think that that'slike if, if someone is going to
espouse really contemptibleopinions, let them be heard for
(53:47):
them, so that then the world canlook at them and say that was a
really ignorant opinion.
Lara Ayad (53:54):
Yeah, so now we know what we're getting.
Tamar Avishai (53:56):
Yeah, like, like you are reinforcing to me why I
believe, you know why I have mymoral conviction and my moral
center, and you are so far tothe extreme of it that I don't
particularly want to engage withyou.
Like, like, let people showtheir asses that way.
Mm hmm, you know I mean we'rekind of drifting away from art,
(54:22):
but I think that artists have anobligation also to to like play
around with those extremes alsoyeah.
And like challenge people toexpand their thinking.
Lara Ayad (54:39):
Is there?
Tamar Avishai (54:40):
Yeah, no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead, oh no I
just I like I'm not exactly surewhat point I'm making, but I
feel like an artist who is onlymaking what they think is going
to land with their audience orconfirm their audience's priors
(55:02):
or get them booked at a show youknow where the gallery stands
to make a lot of money or youknow kind of be really accepted.
Not only is making somethingthat is not going to last or
kind of stand the test of timeto last or kind of stand the
(55:29):
test of time, but they aren'tencouraging people to expand
their own thinking at all aboutwhat the work can be and what
you know representing somethingthat someone never would have
thought of or intentionallydestabilizes them, you know,
makes them think about somethingdifferently or subverts an idea
(55:49):
.
But it's a risk.
Like as the artist, you have tobe willing to be disliked
because you're making someoneuncomfortable, and I think that
that kind of goes back to thatlike flaneur, you know person
who's like never trying tointegrate into society.
They're just trying to observeand be authentic to their moment
(56:10):
.
Lara Ayad (56:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you think that there's, I guess?
My next question then, tamar,is if an artist wants to make a
work that is very provocativeand that is not just like, for
instance, you and I apologize,I'm now forgetting his name
Throughout the artist who'sdoing like the Nazi salutes is a
(56:33):
way to make a point, anselmKiefer.
Anselm Kiefer, yes, thank you.
So, anselm Kiefer, youmentioned that he wasn't trying
to be offensive.
That wasn't the goal of thework, even though that might
have been like a kind of sideproduct of his work.
Let's say, an artist wants tomake something that is not just
for the made for the sake ofoffense, but is made to like
(56:54):
make a point, and in the processyou could be upsetting quite a
few people, or even just a verysmall, but very vocal, smaller
group of people, because thatdoes happen.
What, how should, how should amuseum approach something like
that?
You know, like, curator wantsto put their artwork on.
And then there's this wholeissue of like do we censor?
(57:16):
Do we not censor?
What?
What?
What do you think people shoulddo in a situation like that?
Tamar Avishai (57:21):
yeah, well, first of all, keifer did offend a ton
of people like he barely cameback from that professionally,
um, and so that was like areally interesting lesson for
him.
But also, I wouldn't besurprised if he was like a
little edgy and like didn't youknow?
Kind of like he knew he wasdoing something that was
technically illegal, um, inGermany and yet you know still
(57:45):
kind of went for it in that waythat artists can be those kinds
of guys, um, or maybe.
Lara Ayad (57:53):
But I have a, by the way.
I have a hierarchy of artistsand like where they are on the
kind of d-bag scale.
Yeah exactly.
Tamar Avishai (58:02):
I would not want to hang out with Anselm Kiefer.
Lara Ayad (58:06):
I think there's like painters occupy a certain level
and then the sculptors aresomewhere else.
And I'm not going to go beyondthat because I'll get in huge
trouble for saying that, butanyway, yeah, and the video
installation artists.
Tamar Avishai (58:17):
My god, um, how do museums deal with it now?
Well, is now 10 years ago, isnow five years ago, is now today
, my goodness.
Um, you know, 10 years agothere was the still.
(58:40):
You know, you still had kind ofthe last gasps of exhibitions
that were really, you know,propping up art that that could
be outrageous, that could bereally subversive.
I have a catalog that my mystepmother, who wrote a lot.
I, I mean, she's a comparativejewish literature professor, but
(59:02):
she also wrote a lot aboutholocaust memory too.
Um, it was an entire exhibitionon nazi imagery in art, very
kefir-esque actually, in orderto kind of corporatized, a very
(59:23):
specific way of looking at theHolocaust became, you know what
Norman Finkelstein calls theHolocaust industry.
So you know stuff that was justlike, oh, you know, you, you go
through this catalog and it'sjust it's so offensive.
You go through this catalog andit's just it's so offensive,
(59:44):
like, like canisters of Zyklon B, but but they've got like
designer labels on them likeHermes and Chanel, and you know
like, yeah, exactly, I'm lookingat her face right now Like it's
, it's very unsettling, veryupsetting, very disturbing, like
(01:00:04):
a Lego set of Auschwitz, likestuff like that, you know, 15
years ago that was a totallyvalid show.
You know, like, like no onewould have canceled that, even
as upsetting as it is, becauseit was like whoa, this is some
(01:00:25):
art man.
You know, like this is talkingto a very specific issue in
Holocaust memory and like, sure,go for it.
Like they invited a lot ofthese artists to create for it
Five years ago, that show wouldnever, would never, ever, ever,
ever, have been mounted today.
(01:00:50):
Um, I think that there's a bitof a, you know, a sea change, a
vibe shift, like away from theimpulse to censor from five
years ago, that I kind of wonderif people, you know, if the
pendulum might be swinging alittle bit back.
(01:01:12):
I still don't think it would bemounted today, but I don't
think it would have been as asclearly verboten as it would
have been, like, five years ago,um, but museums are constantly
trying to figure out how to stayrelevant, how to get people in
(01:01:32):
the door, how to please both thedonors who give them money and
the social media followers whogive them, uh, like, clout, um,
who are very often very oppositesides of the spectrum.
I would not want to run amuseum today.
I feel like I'd be terrifiedall the time.
(01:01:54):
Um, there are some museums Ithink that have, like I was
before we talked tonight.
I was kind of reading up on thePhilip Guston show that was
delayed, I think it originatedat the National Gallery and then
(01:02:15):
was going to tour around thecountry and here was a a you
know white Jewish artist who hada lot of depictions of Klansmen
in his work and for aninterestingly kind of again,
everything comes back to Kiefer,no wonder he's so famous and
(01:02:37):
rich.
Um, but he also kind of wantedto show like the impotence of
something that was so iconic andsemiotically charged.
You know, he would showKlansmen in very mundane
circumstances and as a way of ofreally kind of like like
(01:03:05):
defanging it, you know, kind oftaking the piss out of them like
, you know, taking somethingthat would have been otherwise
very hard to look at andexposing it for again its own
kind of like unseriousness, likeit's farce, and that was going
(01:03:27):
to be very much part of the showbecause that's very much part
of his work.
And instead the show was likeknee-jerk cancelled because they
just had, you know, theseimages had clans, you know
clansmen imagery in it, nevermind what he was trying to say
(01:03:49):
about it.
Um, and that was like you know,that took all the keyboard
warriors, like that took a lotof artists and you know art
adjacent people who signed thisopen letter who was like come
the fuck on, come on, you know,like this just isn't like you're
you're so willfullymisinterpreting his work and so
(01:04:15):
it ended up kind of gettingrevived and I was able to see it
at the MFA in Boston when itwas there.
And I was able to see it at theMFA in Boston when it was there
.
And you know, there was a lot ofkind of like scaffolding around
the show.
There was like signs for, youknow, kind of like trauma.
(01:04:36):
You know, like if you need abreak, here's a space where you
can go.
You know like if you need abreak, here's a space where you
can go.
And, and you know, here aresome images of like actual clans
rallies, which I don't thinkwere really necessary, but they
were like behind, like not riskkind of putting, like imposing
(01:05:01):
harm onto your fellow visitorsby them seeing it too.
And there was kind of a likewhat do they call it?
Like the Streisand effect, likewhere, when you, you know, like
when you go so far out of yourway to like have to like cancel
something that it's all peoplewant to see.
Um, I felt like there was a waythat.
Lara Ayad (01:05:19):
I didn't know there was a name for that, the
Streisand.
Oh yeah, god bless the internet.
Tamar Avishai (01:05:25):
Um, but it, it.
I remember walking through thatshow and being like let people
have their own experience, evenif it's negative, like even if
there is something traumatizingto it which I don't you know.
I think traumatizing is.
You know, that word doesn'tmean what I think people think
(01:05:47):
it means, but like it's just sooverused.
Lara Ayad (01:05:51):
It's so overused and it's actually pretty offensive
for people who have actuallygone through physical violence
or sexual violence and thingsthat are actually traumatic.
I mean, I'm going to just goout on a limb and say that.
I know I'm probably going tooffend some people by saying
that, but it's just I honestlythink it's very offensive how
overused it's been.
Tamar Avishai (01:06:11):
I agree, I agree and and I you know this was I
saw this show in 2021 or 2022.
2021 or 2022, um, and it was inthe same gallery that in 2017
(01:06:33):
there had been a show.
You know, before, like in thebefore times, um, there had been
a show of henrik ross'sphotographs from the loch ghetto
and I led tours in that gallery.
I did a podcast episode in thatgallery.
That show was tremendous, itwas incredible.
But there were some verygraphic photos in that show of
(01:06:55):
dead children, like close-ups ofdead children.
In order to make the point ofwhat he had access to and what
he photographed, it was thiscombination of you know, he was
like one of the handful ofpeople maybe the only one um, he
(01:07:16):
was assigned to take kind ofpassport photos or like ID
photos not passports but like IDphotos in the ghetto, and so he
was issued a camera and he didthis kind of multi, you know he
took, you see, the ID photosthat he took.
You see the propaganda photosthat he was forced to take of
(01:07:40):
Jews in the ghetto, kind of likehappily, kind of like whistling
while they worked, basically sothat that could then be shown
to the world, like look how wellwe're treating.
You know, it's like look howhappy people are to be part of
our kind of manufacturingprocess, and then he would also
take really clandestine photosof of like the hell that that
actually was.
(01:08:02):
The show was incredible.
There were no black screens.
That says it was wrong then andit's wrong now.
I mean they trusted visitors tomove through it and I remember
I got to the really painfulphotos and I was like I was very
(01:08:26):
affected by them and I knewthat there was like a part of
the gallery that like I couldn'tlook at.
I like I couldn't, you know, andI had to be in there a lot and
it was like, you know, I justdrew this line where it was like
don don't go, don't go nearthere, you know, for kind of
your own mental health.
But I did that.
That was my own copingmechanism, that was my own
(01:08:52):
resilience to still go in.
That was me recognizing my ownboundaries, that I couldn't look
at those photos again, go in.
That was me recognizing my ownboundaries, that I couldn't look
at those photos again.
And I, you know, the museumtrusted me to know my own limits
and I think that putting thembehind a black shutter, you know
(01:09:16):
, putting a sign that says, likeyou can call this
trauma-informed counselor if youreally can't handle it not only
is incredibly disruptive to theexhibition, but it's it's
patronizing you know, like I wasabout to say, it sounds like
they're treating visitors likethey're small children.
Lara Ayad (01:09:39):
Yeah, and children sometimes even will go through
some pretty difficult stuff andwe try our best to protect them
from those things.
But it's kind of a part of lifeand then they grow and we trust
that process to a certainextent.
I mean, there's debates abouthow parenting has also changed
over the past couple of decades.
Tamar Avishai (01:09:58):
That's my other job.
Lara Ayad (01:10:00):
Yeah, that's your other job, but I am very struck
by that, by the way you describethis exhibition about the KKK.
I'm just like don't we trustthat mostly grown adults walking
into these exhibitions aregoing to be able to manage if
(01:10:20):
they have a negative emotion?
It seems to me from what you'resaying, tamara is like I kind
of think about.
Like are we so uncomfortablewith having these very strong
reactions and emotions justgoing about our world?
Like we're going to encounterthings that really upset us,
(01:10:40):
that make us so sad and thatmake us cry and make us angry
and make us really happy?
Like I don't think.
I don't think we should besheltered from those things.
Like living here in Los Angeles,for instance, we just went
through these awful wildfiresand there are people who are I
was okay and there are peoplewho are I was okay.
There are people who are stilldealing with the effects of this
(01:11:01):
and it's like I don't as hardas this has been to see other
people suffer like this.
I can just say for myself Idon't want to be protected from
how terrible the news has beenor images of people's homes
burned down or entireneighborhoods just completely
wiped out.
This has changed the course ofLA history Absolutely and, uh,
(01:11:23):
to try to act like, to try tomaybe put a black shutter on
that, as you were saying would,it would almost I don't know how
to put this it would sterilizeand silence a whole aspect of
Angelino's lives.
That is, frankly, very unfairto the people experiencing it.
(01:11:45):
And I'll just say that rightthere.
Maybe people would disagreewith me, but I do think what
you're saying is reallyimportant, particularly when it
comes to this whole issue of artand censorship and particularly
when it comes to this wholeissue of art and censorship.
Tamar Avishai (01:11:59):
Yeah, well, and resilience is a muscle.
It doesn't, you know, you don'tjust come out of the womb with
this muscle fully formed, but wedo have an incredible ability
to grow it and to exercise it it.
(01:12:26):
And I think that looking foropportunities for people to be
spared from knowing their ownresilience, their own boundaries
is just a real disservice.
Lara Ayad (01:12:35):
Yeah, tamar, what do you hope for in terms of where
artists can play a role insociety and what kind of role
museums should be playing insociety?
Is there anything that youreally hope for?
Tamar Avishai (01:13:11):
um, bravery, um, I hope that artists can kind of
get back to offending peopleagain, um, product of offending
people, and that art is notgoing to last.
But there's a way to encouragea subversion of the way you
(01:13:33):
think the world should look.
That says, but what if itlooked completely opposite?
And you can say, ah, I hatethat, but I, but I never would
have thought about it that way.
Um, and people can make theirown decisions.
You know, maybe this is what Imeant by talking about
(01:13:55):
journalists with emotions, likeI see the role of a journalist
to kind of present the facts andask the audience, ask the
reader, to come to their ownconclusions.
I don't think that's ever goingto happen.
You know, like human naturedepends on groupthink.
(01:14:15):
You know, and you know whereyou sit in your own tribe.
That's a very, very hard thingto break out of.
It takes active participationand you know, like I don't think
democracy and liberal valuesare the way that our brains are
(01:14:35):
naturally wired.
I think it's something that youhave to work for every day.
When people talk about theimportance of diversity, I think
that diverse perspectives are ahuge part of that and I can't
understand, like it doesn't makesense to me that that's gotten
lost in this, this like buzzworddiversity climate, um.
(01:15:01):
So I just want museums, youknow, going back to to how we
started.
If, if it's a museum's job tobe the steward of the art that
comes out of a cultural moment,it has to be all of it, all the
(01:15:22):
good art.
And if an artist is going to bebrave enough to recognize that
there are some reallycomplicated problems going on
right now and some reallycomplicated conversations, and
and be encouraged to just kindof like subvert somebody's
(01:15:44):
thinking, it's theresponsibility of the museum if
it's good to show it to people,and I I just think that there's.
I can't imagine any other wayforward than that.
Lara Ayad (01:16:03):
Yeah, yeah, Tamar.
this was such a fantasticconversation with so much depth
and so much honesty, and you'rewilling to go and we're both,
both canceled, oh my god, yeah,um, no, but I really do think
it's so important to be able togo to these places in a way that
(01:16:24):
is respectful and you'relistening and and that's the
thing that's.
So.
That's why this is so differentthan, say, watching like a
talking head segments, because,like we're, you know, people are
actually listening to eachother and I hope that that's
what listeners can get fromlistening to your episode and
listening to this podcast.
So, thank you very much forbeing on the Cheeky Scholar.
(01:16:44):
It's just such a pleasurehaving you on the show.
Tamar Avishai (01:16:48):
Thank you so much for having me and for
encouraging a conversation ofthis magnitude of honesty.
It's definitely not aconversation I could have had
five years ago, so I'm gratefulfor even with everything that's
that's gone on in the last fiveyears and in the last five
(01:17:08):
months.
In the last five minutes, Idon't know, I haven't my my
phone's been on do not disturbfor this whole hour, so who
knows how, like what else is whoknows if there's been another
regime change?
you know yeah exactly, um, but II appreciate that you know I
can talk to somebody like youand and the truth is, most
(01:17:31):
people, when they have aone-on-one opportunity to talk
to each other, there's a lotmore sanity individually in
these conversations than thereare in big group.
Um, you know opinions thatyou're supposed to have and on
social media, and it's like it'svery reassuring to know that,
(01:17:52):
like maybe we can take what'sbeen oversimplified in this time
and like return the complexityto it.
Lara Ayad (01:18:07):
Wonder what professors yak about.
After a couple of beers, pointthat monkey digit at your phone
and hit the subscribe button.
You'll get the newest episodesdelivered right to your favorite
podcast app.
Thanks for joining us on theCheeky Scholar and until next
time, keep it real and keep itcheeky.
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