October 10, 2024 • 68 mins
Can learning about art and writing change the way we think? Join us as we explore this question with Caitlin Dalton, PhD, a lecturer at Boston University’s CAS Writing Program. Caitlin skillfully blends art history with writing education to inspire critical thinking among first-year students. On this episode, she shares how she uses contemporary art and social justice themes to spark curiosity and encourage students with diverse viewpoints, including those from STEM fields, to engage deeply with public art around Boston. Through this discussion, we uncover the unique ways art can challenge perceptions and stimulate intellectual and academic growth.
Our conversation goes further to investigate the impact of art on society and the methodologies that might capture its influence. How do artists use their work to provide counter-narratives to pressing issues such as gun violence and the refugee crisis? And can we analyze a painting like a scientist? We examine how interdisciplinary dialogue and ethnographic studies can enhance our understanding of art's reach, even when its effects are not easily quantified. This episode also highlights how art encourages multiple perspectives, offering a more nuanced approach to arguments and societal debates usually seen on the news and social media.
Finally, Caitlin and Lara tackle public narratives around higher education and the concept of safe spaces in academia. We address pundits’ claims that universities are brainwashing Gen Z into woke-ism and cancel culture. Caitlin shows, instead, that the college classroom is crucial in fostering an environment where challenging conversations can thrive without stifling viewpoint diversity. This episode promises an enlightening journey through the intersections of art and education, showcasing their power to shape perspectives, foster empathy, and inspire meaningful dialogue. Don't miss this thought-provoking exploration that underscores the importance of art and academia in our rapidly changing world.
About Caitlin Dalton
https://www.bu.edu/newbury-center/profile/caitlin-dalton/
Gun Violence Memorial, Boston
https://www.icaboston.org/exhibitions/gun-violence-memorial-project/
Yto Barrada’s art about refugees
https://smarthistory.org/yto-barrada-ceuta-border-illegally-crossing-the-border-into-the-spanish-enclave-of-ceuta-tangier/
Homeless Vehicle project by Krzysztof Wodiczko
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-exquisitely-designed-cart-homeless-people-inspired-wave-artists-activism-180968519/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lara Ayad (00:09):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Cheeky Scholar.
This is the podcast where smartand cheeky scholars share their
knowledge about history, artand culture and bust a whole lot
of myths along the way.
I'm your host, dr Lara Ayad.
If you're new to the show,thanks for joining us today, and
(00:31):
if you've listened before,welcome back.
I really enjoyed my conversationwith Caitlin Dalton.
Together, we talked about herresearch on the history of art
in the German Republic and hercareer as a writing instructor.
I asked Caitlin how she usesher background in art history to
teach undergraduate collegestudents to write and think
(00:52):
critically.
What we uncovered together wasfascinating, and the
conversation you're about tohear tackled topics like cancel
culture, the role of collegeeducation in the US and why
studying art matters.
Caitlin and I handled someheavy-hitter questions like
should higher education begiving students safe spaces?
(01:13):
Does art give us easy answersto pressing issues, including
gun violence?
And what role shoulduniversities play in our lives
when the world seems to get moreconfusing every day?
Many mainstream pundits claimthat higher ed is brainwashing
Gen Z into adopting extremeleftist views, but Caitlin
(01:33):
argues that the university isone of the last bastions of
American life where people withopposing political views can
disagree publicly, so stay tuned.
I think you're going to likethis one.
Caitlin Dalton is a lecturer atthe College of Arts and Sciences
Writing Program at BostonUniversity.
She got her PhD in the historyof art and architecture from BU
(01:56):
and is originally fromCooperstown in upstate New York.
Caitlin loves running marathons, exploring public parks and
scoping out bakeries for thecity's best pastries.
Caitlin, welcome to the CheekyScholar.
I'm so happy to have you on theshow Me too.
Thank you for having me.
Caitlin, imagine you're walkingaround your favorite park in
(02:19):
Beantown and you run into yourworst enemy.
What is the most despicable icecream flavor you would give to
them?
Caitlin Dalton (02:28):
Well, I have a five-year-old and he eats a lot
of chicken nuggets, so I thinkit's a chicken nugget cream.
Yeah, ice cream.
Lara Ayad (02:38):
That's disgusting.
Do you think your five-year-oldwould eat that chicken nugget
ice cream?
Caitlin Dalton (02:45):
no, no, even nothing can touch.
None of his food can touch,even without ice cream being
involved.
Lara Ayad (02:51):
But oh my goodness, oh my god.
That's so funny because when Iwas a kid, the only thing that
my dad could feed me when I waslike four years old was cake and
ice cream, so I can kind ofidentify with this problem.
Caitlin Dalton (03:03):
Yeah, those are maybe the exception.
Lara Ayad (03:08):
So okay.
So now, caitlin, you are, Iknow you're you're, you're still
have your eyes kind of set onthis research, but you also I
think this is so interestingabout what you do now you teach
a writing class at Bostonuniversity.
So who are your students andwhat are you teaching them?
Are you teaching them arthistory?
Are you teaching them somethingdifferent?
(03:28):
What does the classroomenvironment look like for you?
Caitlin Dalton (03:32):
Yeah, so I work with first-year students in the
College of Arts and Scienceswriting program and we teach
across all the colleges, um, andso that's like, and we're,
we're a bunch ofinterdisciplinary faculty and we
, so we come from, so I comefrom art history with lara, um,
(03:55):
with you and um and we uh, so weall teach thematic courses.
So so we choose the topics, wedesign the topics and themes and
the students mostly take ittheir first year.
Sometimes the second semesterthey delay, but it's, it's meant
(04:15):
as a, you know, first yearsequence required.
No matter if you've got fiveson all your AP lit classes,
everyone has to take it.
And, yeah, the way that ourclasses are designed.
So I teach classes that are oncontemporary art or art and
social justice in Boston.
(04:37):
So my class in particular isvery much like about getting
students outside the classroomlooking at art, public art and
exhibitions in museums in Bostonand then going back into the
classroom and crafting questionsand writing analysis as well as
more popular public facingwriting.
(04:59):
But academic writing probablyis the major focus of my classes
with the second semester is alittle bit more heavy on
research.
So in more crafting, a totallyindependent project.
It does relate to the theme ofart in Boston, but it it's like
based on a little bit lessboundaries for me, more crafting
(05:24):
, like connections from the getgo from them and then building
library research and so on.
So the second semester is a bitmore research heavy.
First semester is a little bitmore talking about audience and
genre and how to talk aboutanalysis and what's the
difference between, like,academic writing and, say, a
(05:49):
podcast or other forms ofexpression.
So we we do a lot of thosekinds of discussions.
It's a lot.
So the class is not an arthistory class in the sense that
I don't teach like a preordainedtimeline or content.
So much like I'm not lecturingto them, but we do definitely
(06:10):
read from art historians.
So my assigned readings arelargely art historians and then
we also will write in thediscipline primary.
So we'll talk about disciplinedifference and why, like, for
example, so many of them who areengineers, like why they've
been taught you know you can'tuse the first person you have to
(06:30):
say this paper will argue andlike why we do things
differently in different areas.
Um, I won't always know fromthe other areas, but um, it's
kind of fun to explore thattogether.
Yeah, yeah.
So it sounds like you have alot of students coming from
(06:51):
different backgrounds.
Sounds like you have a lot ofengineering students.
What has their experience beenlike in your class, where
they're focusing a lot onacademic writing?
They read a lot of stuff fromart historians.
It's a very different type offocus, very different type of
methodology from their ownfields.
What is that what?
What experiences that have beenlike for them and for you too,
as the instructor?
(07:12):
yeah, I really love it.
Um, I think one of the benefitsto liberal arts education is
having this capacity to havecross-discipline conversations.
I think so often we go intolike we want to just like
identify who we are and thatwe're not anything else.
(07:34):
So it's a real tragedy.
We read so many I and I know mycolleagues, we read so many
like reflections from thebeginning of the semester but
say something along the lines ofI am not a writer, or like I am
, I am, I'm more interested inSTEM and I do not write and I
it's to me that's really sadbecause they've been told
(07:54):
probably something that they aregood at one thing and not good
at another.
But in fact, obviously, writingisn't everything and most
people know that, when pushedlike they will say, yeah, of
course, communication writing isin engineering, is in biology,
um and so on.
But I think, to get themtalking about the transfer of um
(08:17):
, what they might do.
So we do stuff that is ultraspecific, right, which everyone
would do in any class, um, butwe do look at artworks.
We do stuff that is ultraspecific, right, which everyone
would do in any class, but we dolook at artworks, we do write
about those artworks, right, butthen what is the observation,
the staying with something,spending time slowly with
(08:38):
something in the space?
What is the conversation aboutit?
And the fact that there mightbe multiple perspectives what is
that?
How does that transfer to aclass where you're doing a lab?
I'm sometimes, I guess, inclass too.
What do you do in lab?
I'm not really sure, but youknow a class where you're
(09:01):
guessing, like, what chemical touse or whatever else you know.
I do think there's there'sdifference, or there's a lot of
um, there is difference, butthere's a lot of commonality, I
think, in the critical thinking,in the like collaboration
skills.
And another exciting thing isstudents often will be able to
(09:23):
kind of offer interdisciplinaryexcitement, like this summer,
for example.
I may have mentioned this toyou in our conversation this
summer, but I was teaching asmaller the class is already
somewhat small, but a smallerclass and almost all of my
students happen to be engineersand we were talking about a text
(09:44):
that has to do with art andpolitics and ethics, in
particular around the issue ofthe refugee in contemporary art,
the like centrality of therefugee, and we're all sort of
like having this dialogue abouthow powerful the works discussed
in this article are.
But also the question that wasso resonant is how are, how, how
(10:09):
can we quantify the efficacy ofthis work right?
How can we quantify how thiswork changes policy?
And it is such a good question,but it is also such a question
that is ignored by arthistorians and it's also really
hard, right, how do we quantifythat?
I'm not really sure, but, likewe don't in the discipline of
(10:29):
our history, do we center thatquestion of like, like
quantifiable data?
Some might, I don't think I do,I don't think a lot of people
do, and certainly in the craftednarratives that most of the
time I'm assigning, that's not ahuge part of the writing, but
it's a.
It's a really importantquestion like are politicians
(10:52):
going to these exhibitions?
Probably not, right.
So the question of relevance isstill key.
I still think I still will pushthe art matters right, even if
we can't, or even if we guessmaybe it doesn't have an
immediate like okay, this isgoing to change the way people
put governments together, youknow, obviously.
But I think I think that kindof bigger thinking and that
(11:16):
comes from interdisciplinary andcollaborative conversations and
that's what we have in thewriting program, classes
probably I don't go to allclasses, but I think, more than
any other department um, I mean,I just think there's gonna
because it's a force, it's arequired class and because we're
teaching across the class, thecolleges it is likely going to
(11:40):
give you the most variety ofdisciplinary like perspectives.
Um, because I mean, quitefrankly, I think most people
choose the classes based ontheir schedule.
So I get just as many peoplethat say they did it for the
schedule versus, like, those whocare about this, and very few
(12:00):
art historians.
Lara Ayad (12:01):
So yeah, you know this is um, this is interesting
because, like so, if Iunderstand correct, this
engineering student was like,well, can we quantify what?
Can we measure by numbers howeffective an artwork is?
And say, impacting someone'sperspective?
Like, like, let's say, you havesomebody standing in front of
this artwork is looking at it,can he, can we quantify how
(12:24):
effective the painting is?
And, and, and I'm wondering,did they, did that student maybe
offer up a potential like testor a some type of way to maybe
test this out?
Like, did they have an idea forhow that could work?
Because that to me, when I hearthat, especially because I'm
trained in art history the wayyou are, I'm like, well, wait a
(12:44):
second.
What do you?
What do mean?
Why would you try to quantifyand measure the impact of
something?
But for someone, maybe comingfrom a STEM field, that's just
sort of like maybe the firstplace they go.
So, yeah, well, how did you,how did you deal with that in
the classroom?
Caitlin Dalton (13:00):
Well, so I think what it did for me is it did
make me appreciate differentmethodologies, and then we ended
up, because it's such a smallclass, we ended up talking about
why that's the go tomethodology, for I think this
was.
I mean, the thing is isactually it was a lot of
students, because there was onestudent who might have brought
(13:20):
it up in discussion, but it wasMost of the students were
curious, and I'm curious aboutthese questions too.
I don't have it is.
It is a how-to, like a kind ofimpossibility, but at the same
time, it it's a question ofaccess that I think we should be
asking, as our historians, like, let's say.
(13:42):
So this is an article the one wewere talking about talks about.
Let's see Ito Barada, out ofMorocco, her work on sort of a
dual French Moroccan citizenship, but with, basically, the
privilege of passport right.
What does that mean?
And it's across, it's globalright.
(14:03):
The article is really about um,multiple case studies across
the globe, but the question of,like, the ultimate humanity that
is questioned, um, that is putin question by statehood, by um,
by privilege of of nothing morethan passport right.
(14:25):
So in this case, like in thesecase studies, and I think, when
these artworks offer, if we buythe arguments, like, if they
offer this kind of counternarrative to a quick like
painting the picture of therefugee crisis that often, so
(14:50):
often is kind of collapsed inmedia, if these artists are kind
of offering a pro-human likemessage around privilege, but
also convicting us, who is goingto be convicted right are, I
think they're asking?
These students were asking likeokay, but are the politicians
(15:11):
from the, in this case, likebeing more EU, you know, based
like um, are the politiciansgoing to these exhibitions?
It was an honest question andit is like oh gosh, I don't know
um, and I think I think.
And then we write about thosethings.
So I didn't write this article.
Obviously TJ Demos writes thisarticle that we're reading and
(15:32):
um, and.
But we, as art historians, wewrite about these things because
we think they're important andmeaningful.
I think that's certainly whyDemos does this, and then then
it becomes um, like more known,and then I mean, yeah, probably
like Biden's not gonna read it,but like the question of of who
(15:54):
is the audience?
I think is.
I mean it was challenging for meto hear, even though I've been
entrenched in this stuff for solong, but it also, I think, is
helpful for them to see my likeworking out with them, out with
them like oh, this isn't themethodology I go to of like
quantifying who goes to theexhibitions and what they do
(16:17):
with that vision of that work,and I don't think that research
is done.
I don't think it's super easyto do, but it doesn't mean the
question falls away.
It's's still a good.
I think it's still a goodquestion and I think it's one in
which we could probably do morelike ethnography and other
kinds of studies and incorporatethat in in all disciplines Like
(16:40):
think about what are what ourother colleagues or our students
are saying that we mightdismiss as like this is.
I mean, I might be, I might tendtoward like that's not a
possibility to kind of get intothe nitty gritty, but also like
it, what you're saying likerepresents your values and your
(17:03):
inquiry and what you mightreally want to develop and that
is worthy, even if it doesn'tyield an easy or possible even
research project.
And this wasn't for theirresearch.
This was more readingdiscussion, right, so it wasn't
like doing that researchimmediately on it.
Lara Ayad (17:23):
It sounds like that student was thinking on very
concrete terms about audienceand impact, right, and I think
this is, this is this issomething that I think the field
of art history could.
I don't know that we would needto necessarily like put things
into numbers all the time, but Ihave to wonder if some more
(17:47):
like humanistic version of thatinquiry or that study could
benefit art history in some way.
Like who is actually seeingthese paintings and then what?
What are they doing in the restof their day-to-day lives?
Are they then coming home from,say, going to the gallery and
writing about it online and thensharing that on Instagram?
Are they like not talking aboutit with anybody at all, unless
(18:09):
they go to a coffee shop andmeet with a friend?
Let's just say Like there'salmost seems like if we were to
look at like people's behaviorsaround and all the spaces in the
time around encountering anartwork, that might give us
something more concrete to holdonto when we say things like Ido
Barada's I don't know just asan example Ito Barada's artwork
(18:33):
has shifted people'sperspectives about, like this
issue, right, like that wouldjust be kind of that would be
kind of an interestingexperiment.
Honestly, it sounds like you'rehaving really interesting
conversations in your classroomwith these students.
Is there?
Are there any sort of myths ormisconceptions about writing or
about art that you bust in theclassroom or that you help your
(18:56):
students?
Kind of unveil and see through?
Caitlin Dalton (18:59):
Yeah yeah, there are a lot of myths, especially
think of the first year.
Like I mean, even I sometimeswill try to remember what I,
what I believed when I aboutwriting.
And the problem is is I don'tknow about your undergrad
experience, but I didn't have.
I feel like I'm I give mystudents so much that I wish I
had because I didn't have.
(19:20):
I just had to figure out whatan argument was like by reading
and hoping for the best, like Ididn't like actual clarity and
instruction on it.
I'm pretty sure I mean I knowthey might not think they're, I
hope I'm clear, but I think oneof the things, one of the myths
and this is like it relates tomaking what an argument is or
(19:43):
what a claim is, and I would saythis is even like a challenge I
have.
And, speaking of theinterdisciplinary aspect of the
writing program, like I haven'tgotten any.
I believe we have differentapproaches to writing, even as
faculty and as our and and whatan argument is.
To a degree we all have acommon ground, but I think in
(20:04):
art history we craft questionsand we often make arguments that
will pose the importance of thequestion, meaning we don't
answer the question immediatelyor like prove points, point
after point after point, and theemphasis might not and this is
(20:24):
my generalization, I'm curiousif you agree on this but in art
history, I think it's about likecrafting a story, which I think
a lot of disciplines have rightCrafting a story around a
question, but also showing howartwork or artist stories, like
how they ask us questions abouthow the world works or how we
relate to things, and kind ofoffer a new lens.
(20:49):
I think a lot of arguments arelike strong arguments, are
essentially like suggesting thatthese works through X, y and Z,
like they allow us to see thisissue differently.
You know, I'm obviouslycollapsing a ton of different
arguments, but I think thatitself is really hard for
(21:09):
students to see as what a claimor an argument is, because they
have been taught.
I'm guessing.
I don't know.
I wish I mean I'll know soonenough with my child's, you know
, in elementary school now.
Um, but what?
The testing structure?
I, I, kind of, I, I am, uh, Ihave a hunch it's like has to do
(21:31):
with teaching to the test.
I definitely don't blameteachers, high school teachers,
for this, but I think there's,there's a sense of like you
prove a point, maybe implicitly,but it's in kind of like you
have an opinion, you put youropinion down, agree, disagree,
(21:55):
and then you prove it One, two,three and then you have a
conclusion, the five paragraphessay and in this kind of and
some of that can be reallyuseful, but when it's
mistranslated I think it'sprobably a more of a
mistranslation than actualteaching on this.
But, as like, come in with youragenda and make an argument for
that agenda and that opinionand then prove it with evidence.
(22:18):
Okay.
So like, not all of that is bad, we do need evidence.
Right, the whole idea, likethis past example, right, the
idea of gathering data, data.
That's, of course, a huge partof our, our work and and our
process and teaching too inthese classes.
But I also think, like when,what we're doing now in the
early parts of the semester,we're like identifying where
(22:40):
does the scholar make anargument and it's so this is so
hard for them to see.
Okay, they, they ask a questionand I'm increasingly it's it
still strikes me as likesurprising that it's so hard,
not because I'm blaming thestudents, but I think it's
because it's they are lookingfor a art should be, like some
line in the essay that says likeart should be this way, or it
(23:04):
art is better when it's this way, or, you know, like something
that's like an easy opinion ofranking, or I don't know,
because I see it.
You know, I do see it sometimesreplicated in drafts and you
know we work to add a little bitmore complexity and nuance, but
, um, I think, I think that'sthe myth that I care most about
breaking is like can we?
(23:27):
And it's it is ultimatelyrelated to like holding
complexity, which relates backto the story of my dissertation,
but like holding that thecomplexity of an argument can
maybe make us more open-mindedand allow for counter arguments
(23:47):
and ideas or counter examples.
I don't even love the wordcounter argument because then it
it has a binary setup andhonestly, I think that's the
issue is like we already operatein, you know, us versus them,
political right versus left,should versus, should not.
You know old, new, all thesebinaries of opposites, and so,
(24:13):
um, we've been taught, andstudents have been taught, how
to speak and write in this kindof like, one way versus another.
And so this also relates tomyth on art right, art already
is debunking that, because it'sart is almost never binary.
Um, because we're allapproaching it in different ways
(24:33):
and when that's happening andthen we're writing about it, it
can be really frustrating forstudents.
But I think it's exciting toget into this framing of an
argument more as an answer, butin a way, the emphasis is on the
question.
So I'm a really I'm reallypassionate about the question
(24:55):
that drives our work and driveswhat we read, and for that to be
thoughtful and layered andoffering multiple perspectives,
and the claim to not be fullybased in your opinion Opinion
matters, of course, but it's not, it shouldn't be, what drives
everything and unfortunately Ithink that is that is what is
(25:21):
prioritized in persuasivewriting prior to my class.
Lara Ayad (25:25):
I hope they leave without that assumption, but of
course I can do so much what'swhat's a what's a really good
example of some type of artworkor case study you covered with
your students that you you sawit as like actually just
tackling the question for itsown sake is more fruitful than
just trying to rush to some typeof a conclusion about like is
(25:48):
this artwork good or bad, orlike art should be this or that
way, like what?
Is there a particular examplethat comes to mind for you of
where you really saw this playout?
Caitlin Dalton (25:59):
Oh, there are so many examples but I can I don't
yet know with essays because Ican just talk about yesterday,
since we were talking in class.
Class talking about um.
We just saw the um, the gunviolence memorial, um, which I
don't know if it's.
It was first in chicago.
It's done by the mass designgroup and with hank willis
(26:22):
thomas um as the creativedirector, but the group designed
this memorial.
I think it started in 2019, butit was in Chicago, then
Washington DC and for six monthsor not even I think it was
August through January, whatever, that is, five months um in
Boston.
And so I'm, you know, we took,I took the students there last
week and we had the discussionyesterday about it.
(26:46):
Um, and this is a memorial thathas.
It's a glass.
There are four houses, they'reall glass houses of, with
shelves, so the they say it'sglass bricks, but they're sort
of shelves that each, each brick, represents a victim of gun
violence and what.
(27:07):
What's in the.
Every week there's 700 peoplein this country killed by gun
violence.
Sorry, this is going to getjust because of the artwork.
It'll get a little bit umdarker, sorry, um, but yeah, so
um, because of that, they have700 spaces.
Not all of them are filledright now, but you can imagine
they could be filled in one weekwith all these with with
(27:29):
memorabilia from the family,donated by families, um, of the
their child or it's often,unfortunately, children of um,
these, these parents who donate.
Anyway, the work is very meaning, like it's, it's for sort of
obvious reasons, it reallyresonates and it's poignant and
it's heartbreaking and you canwalk inside the house.
(27:52):
So the one we we saw one of thefour houses which is located in
city hall in boston right now,um, and the students were
talking about their experienceand even that, um, you know
they're seeing the work asoffering.
So, like I use the word, likecounter narrative.
(28:12):
It offers like a reallydifferent portrayal of gun
violence than likely we hearabout and see in the news person
, the memory for the family, theconnections between us inside
this glass space to those works.
(28:34):
It's quite, it's quite like Idon't know, just really
emotionally moving for a lot ofus and this is also a really
(29:11):
heavy topic to talk about inanywhere.
But this is, I know, we'll talkto about, like the university
and what's the use value of theuniversity now, and this is like
exactly where I feel this spaceis so sacred of the seminar
room because students begin totalk about how they were
connecting to the jersey ondisplay, like the bulls jersey,
or the basketball, um, like thedeflated basketball and it's,
and so you know, even, and thenthey would talk about how it
relates to these scholars whowrite about public art and it a
couple times I did catch so thiswould be like a it's not in
writing yet, but um, they weresaying, like one person said
(29:33):
yesterday, like I think art,like so, and so I think was I
forget which scholar they weresaying, but Shercroft Knight
might be the scholars.
Shercroft Knight says that artshould be this way, like this,
um, populist model, or, and so Isee this because it should be
this, this is better than, and II'm like is, is Knight saying
(29:54):
that it should be, or is sheobserving that we all take our
stories into these spaces ofpublic spaces?
So I'm not trying to like, butso obviously like there's a
space for that correction whichis more related to the scholar
than the person's story, abouttheir connection with, like the
student's connection.
But I think that's where it'slike it can be both productive
(30:18):
in in the sense of like studentsrealize that their story is one
of a really complex, layeredapproach that the art is
prompting us to consider.
So they see that in thediscussion, I think.
I think they saw that.
I think we had a pretty gooddiscussions yesterday.
And then they also see, oh, andwhen art historians are writing
(30:41):
about this maybe it's not thatart should be a certain way
they're recognizing like afunction of what happens when
there's multiple ways ofinteracting with the work.
In this case, that's what thethe message really was.
Um, and I, yeah, I think evenin the summary, for example, of
(31:04):
the scholar, this particularstudent was like quick to say
that the scholar was likeerroneously say that the scholar
was prompting a better thanworse, than kind of message.
But in fact it's when pressed,like we recognize that it might
be a little bit more specificand and in that way also we
(31:28):
might push against that binary,I hope.
Lara Ayad (31:32):
Yeah.
So you're kind of saying then,if I understand right, caitlin,
you're kind of saying that youwent to this art exhibition with
these glass houses.
They have memorabilia of peoplewho have, unfortunately, are
lost to gun violence andfamilies have sent in this
memorabilia.
You're encountering thisartwork and then you come back
into the classroom to reflect onthat and you're basically, if I
(31:54):
understand correct, you'rebasically saying that the
students, in some ways they were.
They were still kind ofmisinterpreting art historical,
like scholarly work as as makinga claim about the value or the
rightness of a certain type ofartwork.
But you're saying that theywere kind of slowly starting to
see the students were startingto see that these scholars are
(32:20):
really more making anobservation about the larger
meaning of something rather thanmaking a stance about like, oh,
artwork should be this way orartwork should do this for
people.
Am I, am I understanding thatright?
Yeah?
Caitlin Dalton (32:33):
I think, cause you asked about, like when we
sort of or I think, when thecontext was that question of
making an argument, and I thinkthat's the most recent example
where it wasn't.
It was more of a summary ofanother person's ideas and
argument.
But I think, yeah, I mean thisscholar is not talking.
It was more of a summary ofanother person's ideas and
argument.
But I think, yeah, I mean thisscholar is not talking.
This was a more dated piece ofwriting, like it wasn't.
(32:57):
I think it's a book, a chapterin a book, but it wasn't about
the artwork.
So it was, the student wasworking, I think, very well and
hard to connect a concept, butjust the language that we, that
we, I think I mean it is like itmight sound like I know so much
more, but I think in otherareas of my life I'm quick to
(33:18):
say, like they're saying or I'msaying we should do this, we
should.
It was like very typical of ourrhetoric to go to binaries and
I think, or just say that, tosay that something should be, or
rankings, and like something'sbetter than another and that's.
I don't see that happening instrong art, historical
(33:39):
scholarship.
I don't see that happening inthe things I've assigned, um,
and yet we still look for it orwe make up that it's actually
happening in the writing.
But then I'm also saying butthe student is very clear on
having this multiplicity andcomplex experience with her
(34:01):
fellow students in the artwork.
So it's really exciting to me tohave teaching about writing,
which itself I hope to be areally complex and layered thing
.
Make sense is contradictions,but this idea of like we're.
It's easier for a lot of us tograsp the capacity for layers
(34:36):
when we have a discussion and wealso encounter artwork with
other people, because we see ithappening in real time.
Right, and that happens, Ithink, in an exhibition like.
And that happens, I think, inan exhibition like.
(35:10):
Fiorlai Baez's work was on viewat the ICA last year.
We all went in my class lastyear and that also offered all
the works are quite complex, thepaintings, mostly paintings,
some installation, I mean.
So then, like they, they areimmersed in the complexity of
the artwork while at the sametime beginning to approach
writing arguments that mightallow for more complexity, but
with clarity and simplicity inlanguage.
(35:31):
I mean, it's so complicated evenexplaining it, but I think the
art essentially offers a accesspoint for really good conceptual
questions that excite us inperson, in our presence, with
the artwork.
And then you know, we don'tit's not a direct translation to
(35:54):
writing, but like when we canhold that um and we also are
making arguments.
Maybe we become a little bitmore open.
I hope it's my philosophy.
Lara Ayad (36:04):
yeah, it sounds like the a lot of the contemporary
artwork in particular thatyou're having your students look
at and write about.
It seems much more concept.
Well, not I don't want to sayliteral, but these depictions
(36:32):
that are meant to be veryrealistic and have some almost
photographic realism, portrayingsay Stalin or Lenin, or the
happy worker, the happy peasant,I mean, what do you?
It kind of seems likecontemporary art now and maybe
this is my because I would focusmore on like modern art from
the very early 20th century thattended to have a little more of
(36:54):
a direct message in the artwork, albeit, you know, you could
interpret those works indifferent ways, and that's
something that I've studied inmy own research in the past.
But it kind of seems likecontemporary art is just very
conceptually heavy and almost abit abstract, not in terms of
style but in terms of like, howthe artwork is demanding the
(37:14):
viewer, the audience, interactwith it.
Would you?
Is that something that youagree or disagree with or like?
What do you think of that?
Caitlin Dalton (37:24):
I do think I do think that's a character of a
lot of contemporary art.
I don't think it defines allcontemporary art, but I think
that's a character of a lot ofcontemporary art.
I don't think it defines allcontemporary art, but I think
that's absolutely the reciprocalrelationship between us as
viewers and the artwork,sometimes also the artist, right
, I mean that's a whole other,probably another podcast, like
what's the role of the artist inthis?
(37:45):
Because I think they'reincreasingly asked to be like a
public figure, which is, I think, unfair to the poor artists.
But, um, but I, but I do thinkthe art, regardless of that
aspect of it, the artwork andthe viewer to kind of make
meaning together, it's, it'slike I, I believe that is
happening a lot.
I think, um, I think art,especially I, public art itself,
(38:09):
is already going to have thislike I mean, we were talking
about public art for the firstpaper in this class, so, and
this kind of this work is alittle bit like I mean I think
it's public art but it's alsoinside a building, so it's a
little bit less the same as likea mural or a memorial outside,
but, um, anyway, it has a anextra resonance of like viewer
(38:35):
involvement because there's somany different kinds of people.
They don't you don't go to amuseum, like you're not, like
you don't have that interface oflike I'm going to see art all
the time, and so it has like anextra resonance of that.
I think a lot of artists arealso, like, very aware of the
multiplicity of people that willinteract with their work and I
(38:58):
think they use that as a tool alot of times.
Like that is a tool foractually adding meaning.
At least that's what I see, atleast that's what I see.
Obviously it can get scary,because the public is not always
, always who you want to beworking with, depending on the
people.
Like you know, you don't alwaysthere's going to be hate and
(39:19):
there's going to be all sorts ofpeople interacting with the
work.
But I think, yeah, I do findthat to be a character I don't
that to be a character I don'twant to say defining of
contemporary art.
I think there were plenty ofmodernists that wanted viewer
involvement.
But, yeah, there is a littlebit more of a at least the way
(39:43):
we frame it as our historians,because I do it too, like it's
more a sort of more directmessage, like you said yeah,
yeah, yeah, you know there's.
Lara Ayad (39:55):
Oh, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead, go ahead I.
Caitlin Dalton (39:59):
I remember we used to use this text that by
Terry Smith on.
It's called like ourcontemporaneity, with a question
mark, um, and I think one ofthe one of the lines in the text
is like because there's nodefining of contemporary art,
there's like a big, big messagethere's no one definition.
That's like itself problematic.
But he does say like art,contemporary art, something
(40:23):
along the lines of likecontemporary art is above all a
question, and I think that's it,like it's, it's this, that's
what we're talking about, right,this like back and forth that I
think a lot of artists kind ofuse to their advantage too.
Lara Ayad (40:39):
That's.
You know, I find myself bothadmiring the idea that
contemporary art is contemporaryart essentially poses a
question and doesn't really giveyou an answer, like, on the one
hand, it's a cool goal, but onthe other hand, there's a part
of me that's thinking, in thisday and age, when people are so
(40:59):
politically polarized and whenpeople are so, I think they're
really like seeking an answer toan answer to big questions and
big problems they're having intheir lives, in part because,
quite frankly, I mean a lot ofour, a lot of our kind of more
established institutions are notalways giving us the things
(41:23):
that we need.
Like, our healthcare system inthe U?
S is broken and politicianscannot always be trusted.
And, of course, the idea thatpoliticians lie is not a new
idea.
It's been around for a while.
But there's just there's been abreakdown of of a lot of public
faith in larger likeinstitutions and government,
(41:46):
even like education anduniversities.
And I'm wondering I I'm goingto just throw this out here to
you, caitlin, which is like I'mwondering how much people might
find themselves frustrated withwhen they encounter contemporary
art, in part because they justwant to have a clear sense of,
like, what is right and what iswrong in this world that is
(42:07):
starting to feel increasinglychaotic, at least in terms of
like?
We can't rely on the samebaseline values or the same
structures that we used to beable to rely on.
At least, that's how people arefeeling, right.
I wonder what you think of that.
Caitlin Dalton (42:31):
No, I think.
I think it's a good question,like, or a good dilemma that I
relate to too, um, and and I Ireally don't want to say like
everything's wishy-washy and allpeople, no matter what their
views, like or like, whateverthey say, and that it's all the
same, like there's two we can gotoo far with this, um, and I
(42:51):
think, but I, but I also wouldsay I have a hard time thinking
somebody would look for, and Imean, we're looking for answers,
but do we look for answers?
We're going to mediate thoseanswers based on our own
(43:15):
experience, right, so like, Ithink art can do that and is
doing that, but it's not in thesame way that like, but it's not
in the same way that like, um,you you should do this this way,
right, or you should feel thisway about this way, or like, and
(43:35):
there is persuasive writingthat is very strong and and
opinion-based, but but very muchrooted in lots of examples and
um data and all of that, andthat is very much an important
part of helping us figure outour beliefs and and approaches
and actual policy change and allthat.
I think.
I think artwork does occupy adifferent space and I think it
(43:59):
can help us connect to ourstories that matter in
negotiating our.
So it's like we could negotiateour beliefs on something and
then we also could like look foran ant like a tangible answer
to something which some artmight do.
(44:20):
But like I'm thinking of theexample of uh.
Do you know christoph vodichko,the?
He was a.
He's a public artist.
Um, he does a lot of work withprojection, like the use of
projection onto monuments, buthe also did this project called
the homeless vehicle project inI don't know, I've heard of this
(44:40):
.
Lara Ayad (44:41):
I might have heard of it, but I'm not that familiar
like an image or you know,whatever it does, yeah yeah, I
think we like did incontemporary art at BU, so that
might be.
Caitlin Dalton (44:50):
Maybe I had to teach it.
Um, I think that's the firsttime I encountered it, but it's
this, it's this project.
It's one of his earlier like.
It's definitely not a superrecent work, but he worked with
the homeless or the unhousedpopulation in New York and
actually asking what do you needLike, what would be a practical
like we're going to design?
(45:10):
We're going to design likethese structures for you,
because he'd see like peoplepushing carts right, collecting
bottles and so on.
So he worked with the unhousedpopulation.
He and a few other artists didthis and so it was like a
collaborative project on likeuse, value of what.
(45:32):
But the whole point and thepublicity of this work was to
say this can only go so far.
Like it is insane that anartist is like I get like chills
thinking about this projectbecause it is insane that an
artist is proposing solutions tosomething that the government
is ignoring, like that is thatand that I think that's what's
(45:56):
happening with Ito Barada's workand other artists who are
actually really working towardlike exposing a problem, because
I don't think art can solveproblems and I don't think that
is a.
I mean, I don't think it'sdoing that directly.
I think what it often can do ishelp us recognize a problem in
(46:20):
a new way and in a more humanway.
And I think with that project,with Wodiczko's project, it's
like to see these, this artist,working and working with the
unhoused population, workingwith these people who have been
so dehumanized but also are notgiven any kind of solution, and
then the solution is so futilebecause it's an artist project
(46:43):
which is like self-consciouslyfutile, right, but then um, but
then what it does is like morepeople are angry that like god,
like an artist is trying tofigure this out because we
haven't done anything, you know,so it does.
I mean, I'm not this would beanother good thing with, back to
the point of like, thisactually might be a project
(47:03):
where you could do some data.
Maybe the research was really,you know, in terms of like, what
actually changed.
But I do see this, as I do seeart as relevant to exposure and
to learning, maybe more thanlike obvious immediate change or
(47:35):
it's all related, right, but Ithink, or answers, um, but I
think we see things anew throughart and I think, I think that's
where I would say like we'regoing to come to that work right
, or we came like in my classesyesterday.
You know I have four classes ina row.
Lara Ayad (47:49):
Oh my gosh, you've got a full load on your plate,
yeah.
Caitlin Dalton (47:53):
But like, so we're all talking about the,
we're all talking about theEmbrace 2, which is the memorial
to Martin Luther King Jr andCoretta Scott King in Boston
Common, and we're also talkingabout gun violence memorial and
like we sort of like we havethis, this sort of understanding
, in new lens and there's not ananswer, but there is a new
(48:14):
perspective on gun violence.
That might be like we're nottalking in class about.
Gun violence is a mental healthissue.
No, it's a gun control issue.
Like that is important to havethose debates, but that's not
the issue at stake with theartwork, right, the artwork is
like these are human beings,these are my, these are my
(48:37):
children, right, like for thesefamilies of um, and this is what
I want to present, and how doesthat offer something different?
And I think we then take that.
So, like me and the 70 studentsI met with yesterday of and
this is what I want to present,and how does that offer
something different?
And I think we then take that.
So, like me and the 70 studentsI met with yesterday, like we
take that and we we are weighingthat against our own stories
and what does that do in termsof our like I think what that
(49:00):
does for a lot of people is, Idon't know, I already have, like
, I do have views on gun control, right, I have very strong
views, right, it doesn't changethose views, but what it does is
make me ultra, like, morecommitted to recognizing the
human underneath the stories,right, and maybe more frustrated
(49:23):
that we don't focus on that inother forms of media.
So I think that's when what artcan do is it like helps us
recognize our own, like theabsences that we can like the
absences in the other forms ofof expression that we consume,
for example, like not seeing thehumanity of the victim of gun
(49:44):
violence, but focusing on thecorpse.
You know, focusing on the likemedia is going to focus on the
killer, the, the corpse, theevent itself, and we're not
doing that in this artwork.
We're focusing on the liveschange, like and I I mean maybe
this is utopian hope, but but Ido think like, if, if people are
(50:07):
really obsessed with pushingtheir agenda um on, for example,
like, I mean I'll take theeasier option of like we don't
need to control guns, it's wehave control.
You know, when people say this,like we just need to um control
people, or it's the people thatkill people.
You know, like this, this, thisrhetoric that goes around and
(50:27):
it's like okay, and these arethe people that are killed,
right, like maybe that maybethis artwork shows shows that,
anyway, that was a long way ofsaying I think.
I think there may be not goingto be answers, but I do think
there's more clarity to thingsthrough art, and that clarity is
(50:48):
always going to be weighedagainst all the other messaging
we have, but it might.
It might line up or shift oractually help us define our
values, and I think that'swhat's really exciting about,
and I I don't think it's onlycontemporary art, but you know,
it's what I work on, so, or whatI I don't teach the work I I
(51:11):
write about.
Lara Ayad (51:14):
So, speaking of messaging Caitlin, um, I've
heard quite a bit on socialmedia, heard quite a bit on
social media, sometimes the newsmedia, different public
narratives about highereducation, and there seems to be
this, this narrative going onthat I've seen like on Twitter
(51:38):
and and and news media andthings like that, that higher
education and universities arethis kind of like toxic space
where young people are gettingbrainwashed, that it's
politically brainwashingstudents or perhaps you know, at
the least it's a waste ofresources.
What do you think of thesetypes of claims?
(51:59):
I mean, I know that that's kindof setting things up because
you teach in the writing programat BU, so obviously you must
believe somehow in the value ofhigher education.
But could you elaborate on,like, what is it about these
public narratives that perhapsgets the truth wrong?
Or what is it about thesemessages about academia being
(52:22):
toxic and brainwashing that youthink are just?
They just are off the mark, andwhy?
Caitlin Dalton (52:28):
Yeah, yeah.
What if I said like, oh no,they're right on the mark.
I do, I do believe.
Yeah, I very much hear abouthigher ed being a waste or toxic
or just political brainwash.
(52:49):
Brainwashing, I think it's.
It's like, I think what it is.
These are also what.
What is completely important forus to remember is who is saying
this?
Have they benefited from highered?
Like, especially if we'relooking at politicians like,
these are people with likely notonly undergraduate degrees but
law degrees or something else,and you know it's like such a
(53:13):
harness for pitching, you know,especially in the political
realm.
And of course, other people sayand some critique I think is
valid, especially the expense ofhigher ed is, and some critique
I think is valid, especiallythe expense of higher ed is.
And BU is no joke, I think it's.
The sticker price is somethinglike $90,000.
It's insane and we get asfaculty everyone should know.
(53:36):
I especially humanities andwriting.
I mean I'm a lecturer, so it'sthe lowest end of any kind of
pay, so we do not get any ofthat money really, but I think
so.
Yeah, I mean I think there is aissue of funding for education.
That is a value system that Ithink should be reassessed in
(53:57):
the United States when,especially like public
universities, even they arecosting a lot of.
I mean, boston University isprivate, but even public
universities are justinaccessible by many too, and so
we have to do something aboutthat.
I do not know the economicsenough to really go into that,
(54:18):
but there is an access pointthat I think is prohibitive for
a lot of families, access pointthat I think is prohibitive for
a lot of families and thatshould just be on everyone's
like.
We should push for more access.
And and then the other questionaround around, like, yeah,
(54:39):
political toxic toxicity.
I just think it's um, yeah, Imean, I think higher ed.
So we've talked a lot aboutthese productive conversations.
I think that I believe I hold, Ibelieve all my colleagues hold.
There are, of course, classesthat are more, that are also
really important, that are morelike practical, skills-based um,
(55:00):
and hugely relevant to variousdisciplines and industries that
students are going to go into.
That might happen in like atrade school, or could happen
maybe in another kind ofenvironment apprenticeship but
the space of the university,maybe, especially the liberal
arts university, where you havemultiple disciplines at play at
(55:21):
the same time.
Students are required to takeclasses across disciplines.
I think what this offers is anopportunity to experiment with
collaboration that is supportive.
It's not always.
I was going to say the wordsafe, and I don't love that word
, either because I don't thinkall people feel safe, or we
(55:45):
should force them the word safe,and I don't love that word,
either because I don't think allpeople feel safe, or we should
force them into feeling safe.
Lara Ayad (55:49):
And I have what do you?
Yeah, can you tell me moreabout that, caitlin?
Because I've heard terms likesafe space thrown around,
especially in like the higher edand university settings a lot,
and I have my own opinions aboutthe utility of that and whether
or not we should even be makingpeople feel safe all the time
in the sense that they mean it.
What do you?
What do you think of that?
Caitlin Dalton (56:10):
so I I do think it's important to recognize, uh
ways in which we are shoring upmarginalizations and uh
ostracizing people, and it'sreally hard to recognize that,
especially if you're in power,especially if you're in a
privileged like as historicallyor currently as privileged group
(56:32):
, which I am as a white woman,right, like not as a woman
necessarily, but as a whiteperson and I think I want to
recognize that I might beignoring, like either dialogue
or issues that could be reallyhard, or re-traumatizing some
issue.
I think that happens and Ithink so we know of cancel
(56:56):
culture.
I think that is that is verymuch present too, and I think
there's a fear of sayinganything.
This is not just among studentsbut among faculty, and I think
(57:21):
that does happen.
So there is like, so this isand I think you know this is
what what the political rightsort of criticizes of the, the
woke culture of the they call itthis, like this fake safe space
or whatever the critiques are.
I I genuinely think there is animportance in fostering a space
(57:45):
in which students feel, I feelas a faculty like, I feel able
to have hard conversations.
It has to be collaborative, andthat's the part where I think
we're not talking about thatenough.
I think it's happening wherethe students are involved in
what kinds of things they wantto do in class in terms of
(58:11):
dialogue, in terms of pushing,you know, hard topics in terms
of what is OK, what's not OK,these kinds of boundaries.
I actually think thoseconversations should happen in
every classroom.
But where the students haveability to add to that those
parameters, then it becomes workobviously for all of us to
(58:32):
actually like implement thoseideas.
And I might also come like youI sounds like I come from a an
encouragement.
I want to encourage hardconversations when those hard
conversations can happen,because where else can they
happen?
I think, in the seminar spacein particular.
(58:55):
This is this, is the this wehave the capacity to push
ourselves and each other toconsider multiple perspectives,
to consider stories that mightnot align with, like everything
that's easy for us and that's, Ithink, crucial to do.
I actually really really wantto encourage that and I
(59:19):
generally see that alsoencouraged among the classes
I've had in recent years.
I think there just as much likethere are ways in which and for
example, yesterday I did say youknow, if this topic of gun
(59:39):
violence is especially personalto you, if it's really hard to
talk about, we're still going totalk about it.
But if you need to mentally toyou, if it's really hard to talk
about, we're still gonna talkabout it.
But if you need to mentallydisengage because it's
overwhelming, if you do need toleave the room, like we can,
like that's fine, right, and Ithink I could, you know, I could
have had a student say it'sinappropriate to even talk about
(01:00:01):
this like, but I don't thinkit's inappropriate to even talk
about this like, but I, I don'tthink it's inappropriate to talk
about right, um, I do think weneed to have those conversations
and I, you know, I hope that wecan push a reasonable um, like
reasonable ideas around safespaces.
I, I don't even, and my classesI say like safe enough, it's
(01:00:22):
safe enough to have.
I think I think it's also just alie, like for us to believe
we're going to be our full safeselves, like the same person we
are in all spaces, in a publicspace where we know, you know,
there's going to be people withvastly differing views who some
(01:00:43):
of them might be reallyopinionated Like I mean, I still
won't feel safe doing that,even as the instructor sometimes
.
So I don't think we need tohave the pretense that everyone
has to be vulnerable, 100%vulnerable at all times and 100%
themselves and exposed and alsooverprot.
(01:01:07):
Protection can go too far and II think I think it's been okay.
Lara Ayad (01:01:13):
but I mean reading news about professors being
totally canceled for showing awork of art, even when they give
a like preface it with, I meanI get frustrated by these things
and by and by canceled you knowwe're talking about cause I've
seen some of these stories too,caitlin by canceled we're
(01:01:33):
talking about like beingsuspended from their job or
maybe even being let go, evensometimes when they have tenure
already, which is supposed to bea form of job security and that
still is not.
It's not a guarantee anymore ofbeing able to stick around,
when it seems like in some ofthese cases, professors are
genuinely trying to like showsomething in order to have the
(01:01:54):
difficult discussion, but itseems like sometimes students
misinterpret that as thisperson's trying to hurt me.
It's like no, actually thisperson has good intentions of
being like hey, we've, our pastis not politically correct.
Our reality is not politicallycorrect.
Caitlin Dalton (01:02:12):
We've got to confront it head on, and so
we're gonna read and see thingsthat are completely like in the
world, like completelyoutlandish and offensive, and
when can we debrief that?
Of course, I think we need someframing.
As instructors and as theuniversity at large, we need to
(01:02:33):
frame things um ahead of timeand after, of course, really
important afterwards, like um tobe able to facilitate
productive discussions.
And I think and this whilewe're talking about this sort of
negative side of um, of cancelculture, which happens in the
(01:02:54):
university just as much as itdoes anywhere else I think I do
think the university is thespace like to your question
about the, the use value of theuniversity, especially the
liberal arts university like Ireally don't see the facilitated
(01:03:14):
convert.
I just can't imagine that sortof facilitated conversation that
respects I mean ideally rightrespects and listens, or like
fosters listening and dialoguerather than like debating all
the time.
I don't see that happeningoutside of that of the
(01:03:36):
university, in that many spacesLike, of course, some dinner
tables, some faith communities,like I believe it happens
somewhere else, but I think,especially in this pivotal time
of moving from, you know, being18 into the world, I think this
is a really important time toactually have like, like have
(01:04:02):
these spaces of of dialogue thatsometimes is uncomfortable, I
think, meaning somebody said itlike if you don't feel
uncomfortable, it's not I'm notdoing my job, right?
There is that sense of like.
We need to be challenged, weneed to think about like all
these artworks are alsochallenging us, right.
(01:04:23):
We also, then, need to bethinking in community with
others, because if we don't,what will happen is we go to the
workplace and we just stay in,stay with people that are
like-minded and possibly moveinto extremism, especially if
we're more and more isolated.
(01:04:44):
I don't, I I think theuniversity is an antidote to
some degree, um, to extremistthought and, um, while it's
claimed, you know, while therhetoric is spewed about it
being one-sided, it probably hasthe, especially if we consider
students and faculty like quitea wide variety of perspectives
(01:05:06):
as opposed to other industries.
Lara Ayad (01:05:08):
So yeah, yeah, that's , yeah, that's a really that's a
really great way of putting it,caitlin, and I think that's a
fascinating perspective and italmost sounds like the
university and its actualpractice brings people together
with different kinds ofperspectives and it's one of the
few places where you can havethese difficult conversations,
(01:05:29):
but in a way that everyoneunderstands like I'm not going
to cancel you, you're totallyfine, no one's going to act
violently, you know things likethat.
At least that's the, that's thehope and, generally speaking,
that tends to be the case.
But, yeah, like you're totallyright.
If you think about it, whatother kinds of places in
people's lives do they have tohave a difficult conversation?
(01:05:50):
That is where they can beexposed to other perspectives in
a way that's relatively secureand stable and there's a mutual
understanding.
Not very much, especially themore and more people.
I think the more and more peopleare on social media on their
phones and like watching newsand there's this like 24 hour
news feed.
Now, man, like it just seemslike universities are actually,
(01:06:12):
ironically enough, are one ofthe last bastions or arenas
where people can actually havethese really productive
conversations and interact withpeople who have very different
perspectives and ways that aremaybe meaningful or life
changing.
So, yeah, I really reallyappreciate that perspective that
(01:06:34):
you're sharing about this andthis has been such a great
conversation and it's been a lotof fun like hearing, kind of
like in a more podcast format,like about your experiences,
your research, what you're doingin the classroom, your students
and like what they're bringingto the table and the meaning of
(01:06:56):
universities and the meaning ofa higher education.
So I want to thank you so muchfor the time and insight that
you've given for this episodeand thank you so much for being
on the Cheeky Scholar.
Caitlin Dalton (01:07:09):
Oh, thank you, Laura, and likewise I'm so
excited for this shedding lightand humanity among the humanity
and various other things.
So thanks for this project thatyou're doing, too, in this
conversation.
Lara Ayad (01:07:26):
Yeah, yeah, awesome, all right, well, thanks a lot,
caitlin, and take care for now.
And yeah, thanks for being here.
Thank you All right, bye,wonder what professors yak about
?
After a couple of beers, pointthat monkey digit at your phone
and hit the subscribe button.
(01:07:47):
You'll get the newest episodesdelivered right to your favorite
podcast app.
Thanks for joining us on theCheeky Scholar and until next
time, keep it real and keep itcheeky.
Hello everyone, welcome to the Cheeky Scholar.
This is the podcast where smartand cheeky scholars share their
knowledge about history, artand culture and bust a whole lot
of myths along the way.
I'm your host, dr Lara Ayad.
If you're new to the show,thanks for joining us today, and
(00:31):
if you've listened before,welcome back.
I really enjoyed my conversationwith Caitlin Dalton.
Together, we talked about herresearch on the history of art
in the German Republic and hercareer as a writing instructor.
I asked Caitlin how she usesher background in art history to
teach undergraduate collegestudents to write and think
(00:52):
critically.
What we uncovered together wasfascinating, and the
conversation you're about tohear tackled topics like cancel
culture, the role of collegeeducation in the US and why
studying art matters.
Caitlin and I handled someheavy-hitter questions like
should higher education begiving students safe spaces?
(01:13):
Does art give us easy answersto pressing issues, including
gun violence?
And what role shoulduniversities play in our lives
when the world seems to get moreconfusing every day?
Many mainstream pundits claimthat higher ed is brainwashing
Gen Z into adopting extremeleftist views, but Caitlin
(01:33):
argues that the university isone of the last bastions of
American life where people withopposing political views can
disagree publicly, so stay tuned.
I think you're going to likethis one.
Caitlin Dalton is a lecturer atthe College of Arts and Sciences
Writing Program at BostonUniversity.
She got her PhD in the historyof art and architecture from BU
(01:56):
and is originally fromCooperstown in upstate New York.
Caitlin loves running marathons, exploring public parks and
scoping out bakeries for thecity's best pastries.
Caitlin, welcome to the CheekyScholar.
I'm so happy to have you on theshow Me too.
Thank you for having me.
Caitlin, imagine you're walkingaround your favorite park in
(02:19):
Beantown and you run into yourworst enemy.
What is the most despicable icecream flavor you would give to
them?
Caitlin Dalton (02:28):
Well, I have a five-year-old and he eats a lot
of chicken nuggets, so I thinkit's a chicken nugget cream.
Yeah, ice cream.
Lara Ayad (02:38):
That's disgusting.
Do you think your five-year-oldwould eat that chicken nugget
ice cream?
Caitlin Dalton (02:45):
no, no, even nothing can touch.
None of his food can touch,even without ice cream being
involved.
Lara Ayad (02:51):
But oh my goodness, oh my god.
That's so funny because when Iwas a kid, the only thing that
my dad could feed me when I waslike four years old was cake and
ice cream, so I can kind ofidentify with this problem.
Caitlin Dalton (03:03):
Yeah, those are maybe the exception.
Lara Ayad (03:08):
So okay.
So now, caitlin, you are, Iknow you're you're, you're still
have your eyes kind of set onthis research, but you also I
think this is so interestingabout what you do now you teach
a writing class at Bostonuniversity.
So who are your students andwhat are you teaching them?
Are you teaching them arthistory?
Are you teaching them somethingdifferent?
(03:28):
What does the classroomenvironment look like for you?
Caitlin Dalton (03:32):
Yeah, so I work with first-year students in the
College of Arts and Scienceswriting program and we teach
across all the colleges, um, andso that's like, and we're,
we're a bunch ofinterdisciplinary faculty and we
, so we come from, so I comefrom art history with lara, um,
(03:55):
with you and um and we uh, so weall teach thematic courses.
So so we choose the topics, wedesign the topics and themes and
the students mostly take ittheir first year.
Sometimes the second semesterthey delay, but it's, it's meant
(04:15):
as a, you know, first yearsequence required.
No matter if you've got fiveson all your AP lit classes,
everyone has to take it.
And, yeah, the way that ourclasses are designed.
So I teach classes that are oncontemporary art or art and
social justice in Boston.
(04:37):
So my class in particular isvery much like about getting
students outside the classroomlooking at art, public art and
exhibitions in museums in Bostonand then going back into the
classroom and crafting questionsand writing analysis as well as
more popular public facingwriting.
(04:59):
But academic writing probablyis the major focus of my classes
with the second semester is alittle bit more heavy on
research.
So in more crafting, a totallyindependent project.
It does relate to the theme ofart in Boston, but it it's like
based on a little bit lessboundaries for me, more crafting
(05:24):
, like connections from the getgo from them and then building
library research and so on.
So the second semester is a bitmore research heavy.
First semester is a little bitmore talking about audience and
genre and how to talk aboutanalysis and what's the
difference between, like,academic writing and, say, a
(05:49):
podcast or other forms ofexpression.
So we we do a lot of thosekinds of discussions.
It's a lot.
So the class is not an arthistory class in the sense that
I don't teach like a preordainedtimeline or content.
So much like I'm not lecturingto them, but we do definitely
(06:10):
read from art historians.
So my assigned readings arelargely art historians and then
we also will write in thediscipline primary.
So we'll talk about disciplinedifference and why, like, for
example, so many of them who areengineers, like why they've
been taught you know you can'tuse the first person you have to
(06:30):
say this paper will argue andlike why we do things
differently in different areas.
Um, I won't always know fromthe other areas, but um, it's
kind of fun to explore thattogether.
Yeah, yeah.
So it sounds like you have alot of students coming from
(06:51):
different backgrounds.
Sounds like you have a lot ofengineering students.
What has their experience beenlike in your class, where
they're focusing a lot onacademic writing?
They read a lot of stuff fromart historians.
It's a very different type offocus, very different type of
methodology from their ownfields.
What is that what?
What experiences that have beenlike for them and for you too,
as the instructor?
(07:12):
yeah, I really love it.
Um, I think one of the benefitsto liberal arts education is
having this capacity to havecross-discipline conversations.
I think so often we go intolike we want to just like
identify who we are and thatwe're not anything else.
(07:34):
So it's a real tragedy.
We read so many I and I know mycolleagues, we read so many
like reflections from thebeginning of the semester but
say something along the lines ofI am not a writer, or like I am
, I am, I'm more interested inSTEM and I do not write and I
it's to me that's really sadbecause they've been told
(07:54):
probably something that they aregood at one thing and not good
at another.
But in fact, obviously, writingisn't everything and most
people know that, when pushedlike they will say, yeah, of
course, communication writing isin engineering, is in biology,
um and so on.
But I think, to get themtalking about the transfer of um
(08:17):
, what they might do.
So we do stuff that is ultraspecific, right, which everyone
would do in any class, um, butwe do look at artworks.
We do stuff that is ultraspecific, right, which everyone
would do in any class, but we dolook at artworks, we do write
about those artworks, right, butthen what is the observation,
the staying with something,spending time slowly with
(08:38):
something in the space?
What is the conversation aboutit?
And the fact that there mightbe multiple perspectives what is
that?
How does that transfer to aclass where you're doing a lab?
I'm sometimes, I guess, inclass too.
What do you do in lab?
I'm not really sure, but youknow a class where you're
(09:01):
guessing, like, what chemical touse or whatever else you know.
I do think there's there'sdifference, or there's a lot of
um, there is difference, butthere's a lot of commonality, I
think, in the critical thinking,in the like collaboration
skills.
And another exciting thing isstudents often will be able to
(09:23):
kind of offer interdisciplinaryexcitement, like this summer,
for example.
I may have mentioned this toyou in our conversation this
summer, but I was teaching asmaller the class is already
somewhat small, but a smallerclass and almost all of my
students happen to be engineersand we were talking about a text
(09:44):
that has to do with art andpolitics and ethics, in
particular around the issue ofthe refugee in contemporary art,
the like centrality of therefugee, and we're all sort of
like having this dialogue abouthow powerful the works discussed
in this article are.
But also the question that wasso resonant is how are, how, how
(10:09):
can we quantify the efficacy ofthis work right?
How can we quantify how thiswork changes policy?
And it is such a good question,but it is also such a question
that is ignored by arthistorians and it's also really
hard, right, how do we quantifythat?
I'm not really sure, but, likewe don't in the discipline of
(10:29):
our history, do we center thatquestion of like, like
quantifiable data?
Some might, I don't think I do,I don't think a lot of people
do, and certainly in the craftednarratives that most of the
time I'm assigning, that's not ahuge part of the writing, but
it's a.
It's a really importantquestion like are politicians
(10:52):
going to these exhibitions?
Probably not, right.
So the question of relevance isstill key.
I still think I still will pushthe art matters right, even if
we can't, or even if we guessmaybe it doesn't have an
immediate like okay, this isgoing to change the way people
put governments together, youknow, obviously.
But I think I think that kindof bigger thinking and that
(11:16):
comes from interdisciplinary andcollaborative conversations and
that's what we have in thewriting program, classes
probably I don't go to allclasses, but I think, more than
any other department um, I mean,I just think there's gonna
because it's a force, it's arequired class and because we're
teaching across the class, thecolleges it is likely going to
(11:40):
give you the most variety ofdisciplinary like perspectives.
Um, because I mean, quitefrankly, I think most people
choose the classes based ontheir schedule.
So I get just as many peoplethat say they did it for the
schedule versus, like, those whocare about this, and very few
(12:00):
art historians.
Lara Ayad (12:01):
So yeah, you know this is um, this is interesting
because, like so, if Iunderstand correct, this
engineering student was like,well, can we quantify what?
Can we measure by numbers howeffective an artwork is?
And say, impacting someone'sperspective?
Like, like, let's say, you havesomebody standing in front of
this artwork is looking at it,can he, can we quantify how
(12:24):
effective the painting is?
And, and, and I'm wondering,did they, did that student maybe
offer up a potential like testor a some type of way to maybe
test this out?
Like, did they have an idea forhow that could work?
Because that to me, when I hearthat, especially because I'm
trained in art history the wayyou are, I'm like, well, wait a
(12:44):
second.
What do you?
What do mean?
Why would you try to quantifyand measure the impact of
something?
But for someone, maybe comingfrom a STEM field, that's just
sort of like maybe the firstplace they go.
So, yeah, well, how did you,how did you deal with that in
the classroom?
Caitlin Dalton (13:00):
Well, so I think what it did for me is it did
make me appreciate differentmethodologies, and then we ended
up, because it's such a smallclass, we ended up talking about
why that's the go tomethodology, for I think this
was.
I mean, the thing is isactually it was a lot of
students, because there was onestudent who might have brought
(13:20):
it up in discussion, but it wasMost of the students were
curious, and I'm curious aboutthese questions too.
I don't have it is.
It is a how-to, like a kind ofimpossibility, but at the same
time, it it's a question ofaccess that I think we should be
asking, as our historians, like, let's say.
(13:42):
So this is an article the one wewere talking about talks about.
Let's see Ito Barada, out ofMorocco, her work on sort of a
dual French Moroccan citizenship, but with, basically, the
privilege of passport right.
What does that mean?
And it's across, it's globalright.
(14:03):
The article is really about um,multiple case studies across
the globe, but the question of,like, the ultimate humanity that
is questioned, um, that is putin question by statehood, by um,
by privilege of of nothing morethan passport right.
(14:25):
So in this case, like in thesecase studies, and I think, when
these artworks offer, if we buythe arguments, like, if they
offer this kind of counternarrative to a quick like
painting the picture of therefugee crisis that often, so
(14:50):
often is kind of collapsed inmedia, if these artists are kind
of offering a pro-human likemessage around privilege, but
also convicting us, who is goingto be convicted right are, I
think they're asking?
These students were asking likeokay, but are the politicians
(15:11):
from the, in this case, likebeing more EU, you know, based
like um, are the politiciansgoing to these exhibitions?
It was an honest question andit is like oh gosh, I don't know
um, and I think I think.
And then we write about thosethings.
So I didn't write this article.
Obviously TJ Demos writes thisarticle that we're reading and
(15:32):
um, and.
But we, as art historians, wewrite about these things because
we think they're important andmeaningful.
I think that's certainly whyDemos does this, and then then
it becomes um, like more known,and then I mean, yeah, probably
like Biden's not gonna read it,but like the question of of who
(15:54):
is the audience?
I think is.
I mean it was challenging for meto hear, even though I've been
entrenched in this stuff for solong, but it also, I think, is
helpful for them to see my likeworking out with them, out with
them like oh, this isn't themethodology I go to of like
quantifying who goes to theexhibitions and what they do
(16:17):
with that vision of that work,and I don't think that research
is done.
I don't think it's super easyto do, but it doesn't mean the
question falls away.
It's's still a good.
I think it's still a goodquestion and I think it's one in
which we could probably do morelike ethnography and other
kinds of studies and incorporatethat in in all disciplines Like
(16:40):
think about what are what ourother colleagues or our students
are saying that we mightdismiss as like this is.
I mean, I might be, I might tendtoward like that's not a
possibility to kind of get intothe nitty gritty, but also like
it, what you're saying likerepresents your values and your
(17:03):
inquiry and what you mightreally want to develop and that
is worthy, even if it doesn'tyield an easy or possible even
research project.
And this wasn't for theirresearch.
This was more readingdiscussion, right, so it wasn't
like doing that researchimmediately on it.
Lara Ayad (17:23):
It sounds like that student was thinking on very
concrete terms about audienceand impact, right, and I think
this is, this is this issomething that I think the field
of art history could.
I don't know that we would needto necessarily like put things
into numbers all the time, but Ihave to wonder if some more
(17:47):
like humanistic version of thatinquiry or that study could
benefit art history in some way.
Like who is actually seeingthese paintings and then what?
What are they doing in the restof their day-to-day lives?
Are they then coming home from,say, going to the gallery and
writing about it online and thensharing that on Instagram?
Are they like not talking aboutit with anybody at all, unless
(18:09):
they go to a coffee shop andmeet with a friend?
Let's just say Like there'salmost seems like if we were to
look at like people's behaviorsaround and all the spaces in the
time around encountering anartwork, that might give us
something more concrete to holdonto when we say things like Ido
Barada's I don't know just asan example Ito Barada's artwork
(18:33):
has shifted people'sperspectives about, like this
issue, right, like that wouldjust be kind of that would be
kind of an interestingexperiment.
Honestly, it sounds like you'rehaving really interesting
conversations in your classroomwith these students.
Is there?
Are there any sort of myths ormisconceptions about writing or
about art that you bust in theclassroom or that you help your
(18:56):
students?
Kind of unveil and see through?
Caitlin Dalton (18:59):
Yeah yeah, there are a lot of myths, especially
think of the first year.
Like I mean, even I sometimeswill try to remember what I,
what I believed when I aboutwriting.
And the problem is is I don'tknow about your undergrad
experience, but I didn't have.
I feel like I'm I give mystudents so much that I wish I
had because I didn't have.
(19:20):
I just had to figure out whatan argument was like by reading
and hoping for the best, like Ididn't like actual clarity and
instruction on it.
I'm pretty sure I mean I knowthey might not think they're, I
hope I'm clear, but I think oneof the things, one of the myths
and this is like it relates tomaking what an argument is or
(19:43):
what a claim is, and I would saythis is even like a challenge I
have.
And, speaking of theinterdisciplinary aspect of the
writing program, like I haven'tgotten any.
I believe we have differentapproaches to writing, even as
faculty and as our and and whatan argument is.
To a degree we all have acommon ground, but I think in
(20:04):
art history we craft questionsand we often make arguments that
will pose the importance of thequestion, meaning we don't
answer the question immediatelyor like prove points, point
after point after point, and theemphasis might not and this is
(20:24):
my generalization, I'm curiousif you agree on this but in art
history, I think it's about likecrafting a story, which I think
a lot of disciplines have rightCrafting a story around a
question, but also showing howartwork or artist stories, like
how they ask us questions abouthow the world works or how we
relate to things, and kind ofoffer a new lens.
(20:49):
I think a lot of arguments arelike strong arguments, are
essentially like suggesting thatthese works through X, y and Z,
like they allow us to see thisissue differently.
You know, I'm obviouslycollapsing a ton of different
arguments, but I think thatitself is really hard for
(21:09):
students to see as what a claimor an argument is, because they
have been taught.
I'm guessing.
I don't know.
I wish I mean I'll know soonenough with my child's, you know
, in elementary school now.
Um, but what?
The testing structure?
I, I, kind of, I, I am, uh, Ihave a hunch it's like has to do
(21:31):
with teaching to the test.
I definitely don't blameteachers, high school teachers,
for this, but I think there's,there's a sense of like you
prove a point, maybe implicitly,but it's in kind of like you
have an opinion, you put youropinion down, agree, disagree,
(21:55):
and then you prove it One, two,three and then you have a
conclusion, the five paragraphessay and in this kind of and
some of that can be reallyuseful, but when it's
mistranslated I think it'sprobably a more of a
mistranslation than actualteaching on this.
But, as like, come in with youragenda and make an argument for
that agenda and that opinionand then prove it with evidence.
(22:18):
Okay.
So like, not all of that is bad, we do need evidence.
Right, the whole idea, likethis past example, right, the
idea of gathering data, data.
That's, of course, a huge partof our, our work and and our
process and teaching too inthese classes.
But I also think, like when,what we're doing now in the
early parts of the semester,we're like identifying where
(22:40):
does the scholar make anargument and it's so this is so
hard for them to see.
Okay, they, they ask a questionand I'm increasingly it's it
still strikes me as likesurprising that it's so hard,
not because I'm blaming thestudents, but I think it's
because it's they are lookingfor a art should be, like some
line in the essay that says likeart should be this way, or it
(23:04):
art is better when it's this way, or, you know, like something
that's like an easy opinion ofranking, or I don't know,
because I see it.
You know, I do see it sometimesreplicated in drafts and you
know we work to add a little bitmore complexity and nuance, but
, um, I think, I think that'sthe myth that I care most about
breaking is like can we?
(23:27):
And it's it is ultimatelyrelated to like holding
complexity, which relates backto the story of my dissertation,
but like holding that thecomplexity of an argument can
maybe make us more open-mindedand allow for counter arguments
(23:47):
and ideas or counter examples.
I don't even love the wordcounter argument because then it
it has a binary setup andhonestly, I think that's the
issue is like we already operatein, you know, us versus them,
political right versus left,should versus, should not.
You know old, new, all thesebinaries of opposites, and so,
(24:13):
um, we've been taught, andstudents have been taught, how
to speak and write in this kindof like, one way versus another.
And so this also relates tomyth on art right, art already
is debunking that, because it'sart is almost never binary.
Um, because we're allapproaching it in different ways
(24:33):
and when that's happening andthen we're writing about it, it
can be really frustrating forstudents.
But I think it's exciting toget into this framing of an
argument more as an answer, butin a way, the emphasis is on the
question.
So I'm a really I'm reallypassionate about the question
(24:55):
that drives our work and driveswhat we read, and for that to be
thoughtful and layered andoffering multiple perspectives,
and the claim to not be fullybased in your opinion Opinion
matters, of course, but it's not, it shouldn't be, what drives
everything and unfortunately Ithink that is that is what is
(25:21):
prioritized in persuasivewriting prior to my class.
Lara Ayad (25:25):
I hope they leave without that assumption, but of
course I can do so much what'swhat's a what's a really good
example of some type of artworkor case study you covered with
your students that you you sawit as like actually just
tackling the question for itsown sake is more fruitful than
just trying to rush to some typeof a conclusion about like is
(25:48):
this artwork good or bad, orlike art should be this or that
way, like what?
Is there a particular examplethat comes to mind for you of
where you really saw this playout?
Caitlin Dalton (25:59):
Oh, there are so many examples but I can I don't
yet know with essays because Ican just talk about yesterday,
since we were talking in class.
Class talking about um.
We just saw the um, the gunviolence memorial, um, which I
don't know if it's.
It was first in chicago.
It's done by the mass designgroup and with hank willis
(26:22):
thomas um as the creativedirector, but the group designed
this memorial.
I think it started in 2019, butit was in Chicago, then
Washington DC and for six monthsor not even I think it was
August through January, whatever, that is, five months um in
Boston.
And so I'm, you know, we took,I took the students there last
week and we had the discussionyesterday about it.
(26:46):
Um, and this is a memorial thathas.
It's a glass.
There are four houses, they'reall glass houses of, with
shelves, so the they say it'sglass bricks, but they're sort
of shelves that each, each brick, represents a victim of gun
violence and what.
(27:07):
What's in the.
Every week there's 700 peoplein this country killed by gun
violence.
Sorry, this is going to getjust because of the artwork.
It'll get a little bit umdarker, sorry, um, but yeah, so
um, because of that, they have700 spaces.
Not all of them are filledright now, but you can imagine
they could be filled in one weekwith all these with with
(27:29):
memorabilia from the family,donated by families, um, of the
their child or it's often,unfortunately, children of um,
these, these parents who donate.
Anyway, the work is very meaning, like it's, it's for sort of
obvious reasons, it reallyresonates and it's poignant and
it's heartbreaking and you canwalk inside the house.
(27:52):
So the one we we saw one of thefour houses which is located in
city hall in boston right now,um, and the students were
talking about their experienceand even that, um, you know
they're seeing the work asoffering.
So, like I use the word, likecounter narrative.
(28:12):
It offers like a reallydifferent portrayal of gun
violence than likely we hearabout and see in the news person
, the memory for the family, theconnections between us inside
this glass space to those works.
(28:34):
It's quite, it's quite like Idon't know, just really
emotionally moving for a lot ofus and this is also a really
(29:11):
heavy topic to talk about inanywhere.
But this is, I know, we'll talkto about, like the university
and what's the use value of theuniversity now, and this is like
exactly where I feel this spaceis so sacred of the seminar
room because students begin totalk about how they were
connecting to the jersey ondisplay, like the bulls jersey,
or the basketball, um, like thedeflated basketball and it's,
and so you know, even, and thenthey would talk about how it
relates to these scholars whowrite about public art and it a
couple times I did catch so thiswould be like a it's not in
writing yet, but um, they weresaying, like one person said
(29:33):
yesterday, like I think art,like so, and so I think was I
forget which scholar they weresaying, but Shercroft Knight
might be the scholars.
Shercroft Knight says that artshould be this way, like this,
um, populist model, or, and so Isee this because it should be
this, this is better than, and II'm like is, is Knight saying
(29:54):
that it should be, or is sheobserving that we all take our
stories into these spaces ofpublic spaces?
So I'm not trying to like, butso obviously like there's a
space for that correction whichis more related to the scholar
than the person's story, abouttheir connection with, like the
student's connection.
But I think that's where it'slike it can be both productive
(30:18):
in in the sense of like studentsrealize that their story is one
of a really complex, layeredapproach that the art is
prompting us to consider.
So they see that in thediscussion, I think.
I think they saw that.
I think we had a pretty gooddiscussions yesterday.
And then they also see, oh, andwhen art historians are writing
(30:41):
about this maybe it's not thatart should be a certain way
they're recognizing like afunction of what happens when
there's multiple ways ofinteracting with the work.
In this case, that's what thethe message really was.
Um, and I, yeah, I think evenin the summary, for example, of
(31:04):
the scholar, this particularstudent was like quick to say
that the scholar was likeerroneously say that the scholar
was prompting a better thanworse, than kind of message.
But in fact it's when pressed,like we recognize that it might
be a little bit more specificand and in that way also we
(31:28):
might push against that binary,I hope.
Lara Ayad (31:32):
Yeah.
So you're kind of saying then,if I understand right, caitlin,
you're kind of saying that youwent to this art exhibition with
these glass houses.
They have memorabilia of peoplewho have, unfortunately, are
lost to gun violence andfamilies have sent in this
memorabilia.
You're encountering thisartwork and then you come back
into the classroom to reflect onthat and you're basically, if I
(31:54):
understand correct, you'rebasically saying that the
students, in some ways they were.
They were still kind ofmisinterpreting art historical,
like scholarly work as as makinga claim about the value or the
rightness of a certain type ofartwork.
But you're saying that theywere kind of slowly starting to
see the students were startingto see that these scholars are
(32:20):
really more making anobservation about the larger
meaning of something rather thanmaking a stance about like, oh,
artwork should be this way orartwork should do this for
people.
Am I, am I understanding thatright?
Yeah?
Caitlin Dalton (32:33):
I think, cause you asked about, like when we
sort of or I think, when thecontext was that question of
making an argument, and I thinkthat's the most recent example
where it wasn't.
It was more of a summary ofanother person's ideas and
argument.
But I think, yeah, I mean thisscholar is not talking.
It was more of a summary ofanother person's ideas and
argument.
But I think, yeah, I mean thisscholar is not talking.
This was a more dated piece ofwriting, like it wasn't.
(32:57):
I think it's a book, a chapterin a book, but it wasn't about
the artwork.
So it was, the student wasworking, I think, very well and
hard to connect a concept, butjust the language that we, that
we, I think I mean it is like itmight sound like I know so much
more, but I think in otherareas of my life I'm quick to
(33:18):
say, like they're saying or I'msaying we should do this, we
should.
It was like very typical of ourrhetoric to go to binaries and
I think, or just say that, tosay that something should be, or
rankings, and like something'sbetter than another and that's.
I don't see that happening instrong art, historical
(33:39):
scholarship.
I don't see that happening inthe things I've assigned, um,
and yet we still look for it orwe make up that it's actually
happening in the writing.
But then I'm also saying butthe student is very clear on
having this multiplicity andcomplex experience with her
(34:01):
fellow students in the artwork.
So it's really exciting to me tohave teaching about writing,
which itself I hope to be areally complex and layered thing
.
Make sense is contradictions,but this idea of like we're.
It's easier for a lot of us tograsp the capacity for layers
(34:36):
when we have a discussion and wealso encounter artwork with
other people, because we see ithappening in real time.
Right, and that happens, Ithink, in an exhibition like.
And that happens, I think, inan exhibition like.
(35:10):
Fiorlai Baez's work was on viewat the ICA last year.
We all went in my class lastyear and that also offered all
the works are quite complex, thepaintings, mostly paintings,
some installation, I mean.
So then, like they, they areimmersed in the complexity of
the artwork while at the sametime beginning to approach
writing arguments that mightallow for more complexity, but
with clarity and simplicity inlanguage.
(35:31):
I mean, it's so complicated evenexplaining it, but I think the
art essentially offers a accesspoint for really good conceptual
questions that excite us inperson, in our presence, with
the artwork.
And then you know, we don'tit's not a direct translation to
(35:54):
writing, but like when we canhold that um and we also are
making arguments.
Maybe we become a little bitmore open.
I hope it's my philosophy.
Lara Ayad (36:04):
yeah, it sounds like the a lot of the contemporary
artwork in particular thatyou're having your students look
at and write about.
It seems much more concept.
Well, not I don't want to sayliteral, but these depictions
(36:32):
that are meant to be veryrealistic and have some almost
photographic realism, portrayingsay Stalin or Lenin, or the
happy worker, the happy peasant,I mean, what do you?
It kind of seems likecontemporary art now and maybe
this is my because I would focusmore on like modern art from
the very early 20th century thattended to have a little more of
(36:54):
a direct message in the artwork, albeit, you know, you could
interpret those works indifferent ways, and that's
something that I've studied inmy own research in the past.
But it kind of seems likecontemporary art is just very
conceptually heavy and almost abit abstract, not in terms of
style but in terms of like, howthe artwork is demanding the
(37:14):
viewer, the audience, interactwith it.
Would you?
Is that something that youagree or disagree with or like?
What do you think of that?
Caitlin Dalton (37:24):
I do think I do think that's a character of a
lot of contemporary art.
I don't think it defines allcontemporary art, but I think
that's a character of a lot ofcontemporary art.
I don't think it defines allcontemporary art, but I think
that's absolutely the reciprocalrelationship between us as
viewers and the artwork,sometimes also the artist, right
, I mean that's a whole other,probably another podcast, like
what's the role of the artist inthis?
(37:45):
Because I think they'reincreasingly asked to be like a
public figure, which is, I think, unfair to the poor artists.
But, um, but I, but I do thinkthe art, regardless of that
aspect of it, the artwork andthe viewer to kind of make
meaning together, it's, it'slike I, I believe that is
happening a lot.
I think, um, I think art,especially I, public art itself,
(38:09):
is already going to have thislike I mean, we were talking
about public art for the firstpaper in this class, so, and
this kind of this work is alittle bit like I mean I think
it's public art but it's alsoinside a building, so it's a
little bit less the same as likea mural or a memorial outside,
but, um, anyway, it has a anextra resonance of like viewer
(38:35):
involvement because there's somany different kinds of people.
They don't you don't go to amuseum, like you're not, like
you don't have that interface oflike I'm going to see art all
the time, and so it has like anextra resonance of that.
I think a lot of artists arealso, like, very aware of the
multiplicity of people that willinteract with their work and I
(38:58):
think they use that as a tool alot of times.
Like that is a tool foractually adding meaning.
At least that's what I see, atleast that's what I see.
Obviously it can get scary,because the public is not always
, always who you want to beworking with, depending on the
people.
Like you know, you don't alwaysthere's going to be hate and
(39:19):
there's going to be all sorts ofpeople interacting with the
work.
But I think, yeah, I do findthat to be a character I don't
that to be a character I don'twant to say defining of
contemporary art.
I think there were plenty ofmodernists that wanted viewer
involvement.
But, yeah, there is a littlebit more of a at least the way
(39:43):
we frame it as our historians,because I do it too, like it's
more a sort of more directmessage, like you said yeah,
yeah, yeah, you know there's.
Lara Ayad (39:55):
Oh, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead, go ahead I.
Caitlin Dalton (39:59):
I remember we used to use this text that by
Terry Smith on.
It's called like ourcontemporaneity, with a question
mark, um, and I think one ofthe one of the lines in the text
is like because there's nodefining of contemporary art,
there's like a big, big messagethere's no one definition.
That's like itself problematic.
But he does say like art,contemporary art, something
(40:23):
along the lines of likecontemporary art is above all a
question, and I think that's it,like it's, it's this, that's
what we're talking about, right,this like back and forth that I
think a lot of artists kind ofuse to their advantage too.
Lara Ayad (40:39):
That's.
You know, I find myself bothadmiring the idea that
contemporary art is contemporaryart essentially poses a
question and doesn't really giveyou an answer, like, on the one
hand, it's a cool goal, but onthe other hand, there's a part
of me that's thinking, in thisday and age, when people are so
(40:59):
politically polarized and whenpeople are so, I think they're
really like seeking an answer toan answer to big questions and
big problems they're having intheir lives, in part because,
quite frankly, I mean a lot ofour, a lot of our kind of more
established institutions are notalways giving us the things
(41:23):
that we need.
Like, our healthcare system inthe U?
S is broken and politicianscannot always be trusted.
And, of course, the idea thatpoliticians lie is not a new
idea.
It's been around for a while.
But there's just there's been abreakdown of of a lot of public
faith in larger likeinstitutions and government,
(41:46):
even like education anduniversities.
And I'm wondering I I'm goingto just throw this out here to
you, caitlin, which is like I'mwondering how much people might
find themselves frustrated withwhen they encounter contemporary
art, in part because they justwant to have a clear sense of,
like, what is right and what iswrong in this world that is
(42:07):
starting to feel increasinglychaotic, at least in terms of
like?
We can't rely on the samebaseline values or the same
structures that we used to beable to rely on.
At least, that's how people arefeeling, right.
I wonder what you think of that.
Caitlin Dalton (42:31):
No, I think.
I think it's a good question,like, or a good dilemma that I
relate to too, um, and and I Ireally don't want to say like
everything's wishy-washy and allpeople, no matter what their
views, like or like, whateverthey say, and that it's all the
same, like there's two we can gotoo far with this, um, and I
(42:51):
think, but I, but I also wouldsay I have a hard time thinking
somebody would look for, and Imean, we're looking for answers,
but do we look for answers?
We're going to mediate thoseanswers based on our own
(43:15):
experience, right, so like, Ithink art can do that and is
doing that, but it's not in thesame way that like, but it's not
in the same way that like, um,you you should do this this way,
right, or you should feel thisway about this way, or like, and
(43:35):
there is persuasive writingthat is very strong and and
opinion-based, but but very muchrooted in lots of examples and
um data and all of that, andthat is very much an important
part of helping us figure outour beliefs and and approaches
and actual policy change and allthat.
I think.
I think artwork does occupy adifferent space and I think it
(43:59):
can help us connect to ourstories that matter in
negotiating our.
So it's like we could negotiateour beliefs on something and
then we also could like look foran ant like a tangible answer
to something which some artmight do.
(44:20):
But like I'm thinking of theexample of uh.
Do you know christoph vodichko,the?
He was a.
He's a public artist.
Um, he does a lot of work withprojection, like the use of
projection onto monuments, buthe also did this project called
the homeless vehicle project inI don't know, I've heard of this
(44:40):
.
Lara Ayad (44:41):
I might have heard of it, but I'm not that familiar
like an image or you know,whatever it does, yeah yeah, I
think we like did incontemporary art at BU, so that
might be.
Caitlin Dalton (44:50):
Maybe I had to teach it.
Um, I think that's the firsttime I encountered it, but it's
this, it's this project.
It's one of his earlier like.
It's definitely not a superrecent work, but he worked with
the homeless or the unhousedpopulation in New York and
actually asking what do you needLike, what would be a practical
like we're going to design?
(45:10):
We're going to design likethese structures for you,
because he'd see like peoplepushing carts right, collecting
bottles and so on.
So he worked with the unhousedpopulation.
He and a few other artists didthis and so it was like a
collaborative project on likeuse, value of what.
(45:32):
But the whole point and thepublicity of this work was to
say this can only go so far.
Like it is insane that anartist is like I get like chills
thinking about this projectbecause it is insane that an
artist is proposing solutions tosomething that the government
is ignoring, like that is thatand that I think that's what's
(45:56):
happening with Ito Barada's workand other artists who are
actually really working towardlike exposing a problem, because
I don't think art can solveproblems and I don't think that
is a.
I mean, I don't think it'sdoing that directly.
I think what it often can do ishelp us recognize a problem in
(46:20):
a new way and in a more humanway.
And I think with that project,with Wodiczko's project, it's
like to see these, this artist,working and working with the
unhoused population, workingwith these people who have been
so dehumanized but also are notgiven any kind of solution, and
then the solution is so futilebecause it's an artist project
(46:43):
which is like self-consciouslyfutile, right, but then um, but
then what it does is like morepeople are angry that like god,
like an artist is trying tofigure this out because we
haven't done anything, you know,so it does.
I mean, I'm not this would beanother good thing with, back to
the point of like, thisactually might be a project
(47:03):
where you could do some data.
Maybe the research was really,you know, in terms of like, what
actually changed.
But I do see this, as I do seeart as relevant to exposure and
to learning, maybe more thanlike obvious immediate change or
(47:35):
it's all related, right, but Ithink, or answers, um, but I
think we see things anew throughart and I think, I think that's
where I would say like we'regoing to come to that work right
, or we came like in my classesyesterday.
You know I have four classes ina row.
Lara Ayad (47:49):
Oh my gosh, you've got a full load on your plate,
yeah.
Caitlin Dalton (47:53):
But like, so we're all talking about the,
we're all talking about theEmbrace 2, which is the memorial
to Martin Luther King Jr andCoretta Scott King in Boston
Common, and we're also talkingabout gun violence memorial and
like we sort of like we havethis, this sort of understanding
, in new lens and there's not ananswer, but there is a new
(48:14):
perspective on gun violence.
That might be like we're nottalking in class about.
Gun violence is a mental healthissue.
No, it's a gun control issue.
Like that is important to havethose debates, but that's not
the issue at stake with theartwork, right, the artwork is
like these are human beings,these are my, these are my
(48:37):
children, right, like for thesefamilies of um, and this is what
I want to present, and how doesthat offer something different?
And I think we then take that.
So, like me and the 70 studentsI met with yesterday of and
this is what I want to present,and how does that offer
something different?
And I think we then take that.
So, like me and the 70 studentsI met with yesterday, like we
take that and we we are weighingthat against our own stories
and what does that do in termsof our like I think what that
(49:00):
does for a lot of people is, Idon't know, I already have, like
, I do have views on gun control, right, I have very strong
views, right, it doesn't changethose views, but what it does is
make me ultra, like, morecommitted to recognizing the
human underneath the stories,right, and maybe more frustrated
(49:23):
that we don't focus on that inother forms of media.
So I think that's when what artcan do is it like helps us
recognize our own, like theabsences that we can like the
absences in the other forms ofof expression that we consume,
for example, like not seeing thehumanity of the victim of gun
(49:44):
violence, but focusing on thecorpse.
You know, focusing on the likemedia is going to focus on the
killer, the, the corpse, theevent itself, and we're not
doing that in this artwork.
We're focusing on the liveschange, like and I I mean maybe
this is utopian hope, but but Ido think like, if, if people are
(50:07):
really obsessed with pushingtheir agenda um on, for example,
like, I mean I'll take theeasier option of like we don't
need to control guns, it's wehave control.
You know, when people say this,like we just need to um control
people, or it's the people thatkill people.
You know, like this, this, thisrhetoric that goes around and
(50:27):
it's like okay, and these arethe people that are killed,
right, like maybe that maybethis artwork shows shows that,
anyway, that was a long way ofsaying I think.
I think there may be not goingto be answers, but I do think
there's more clarity to thingsthrough art, and that clarity is
(50:48):
always going to be weighedagainst all the other messaging
we have, but it might.
It might line up or shift oractually help us define our
values, and I think that'swhat's really exciting about,
and I I don't think it's onlycontemporary art, but you know,
it's what I work on, so, or whatI I don't teach the work I I
(51:11):
write about.
Lara Ayad (51:14):
So, speaking of messaging Caitlin, um, I've
heard quite a bit on socialmedia, heard quite a bit on
social media, sometimes the newsmedia, different public
narratives about highereducation, and there seems to be
this, this narrative going onthat I've seen like on Twitter
(51:38):
and and and news media andthings like that, that higher
education and universities arethis kind of like toxic space
where young people are gettingbrainwashed, that it's
politically brainwashingstudents or perhaps you know, at
the least it's a waste ofresources.
What do you think of thesetypes of claims?
(51:59):
I mean, I know that that's kindof setting things up because
you teach in the writing programat BU, so obviously you must
believe somehow in the value ofhigher education.
But could you elaborate on,like, what is it about these
public narratives that perhapsgets the truth wrong?
Or what is it about thesemessages about academia being
(52:22):
toxic and brainwashing that youthink are just?
They just are off the mark, andwhy?
Caitlin Dalton (52:28):
Yeah, yeah.
What if I said like, oh no,they're right on the mark.
I do, I do believe.
Yeah, I very much hear abouthigher ed being a waste or toxic
or just political brainwash.
(52:49):
Brainwashing, I think it's.
It's like, I think what it is.
These are also what.
What is completely important forus to remember is who is saying
this?
Have they benefited from highered?
Like, especially if we'relooking at politicians like,
these are people with likely notonly undergraduate degrees but
law degrees or something else,and you know it's like such a
(53:13):
harness for pitching, you know,especially in the political
realm.
And of course, other people sayand some critique I think is
valid, especially the expense ofhigher ed is, and some critique
I think is valid, especiallythe expense of higher ed is.
And BU is no joke, I think it's.
The sticker price is somethinglike $90,000.
It's insane and we get asfaculty everyone should know.
(53:36):
I especially humanities andwriting.
I mean I'm a lecturer, so it'sthe lowest end of any kind of
pay, so we do not get any ofthat money really, but I think
so.
Yeah, I mean I think there is aissue of funding for education.
That is a value system that Ithink should be reassessed in
(53:57):
the United States when,especially like public
universities, even they arecosting a lot of.
I mean, boston University isprivate, but even public
universities are justinaccessible by many too, and so
we have to do something aboutthat.
I do not know the economicsenough to really go into that,
(54:18):
but there is an access pointthat I think is prohibitive for
a lot of families, access pointthat I think is prohibitive for
a lot of families and thatshould just be on everyone's
like.
We should push for more access.
And and then the other questionaround around, like, yeah,
(54:39):
political toxic toxicity.
I just think it's um, yeah, Imean, I think higher ed.
So we've talked a lot aboutthese productive conversations.
I think that I believe I hold, Ibelieve all my colleagues hold.
There are, of course, classesthat are more, that are also
really important, that are morelike practical, skills-based um,
(55:00):
and hugely relevant to variousdisciplines and industries that
students are going to go into.
That might happen in like atrade school, or could happen
maybe in another kind ofenvironment apprenticeship but
the space of the university,maybe, especially the liberal
arts university, where you havemultiple disciplines at play at
(55:21):
the same time.
Students are required to takeclasses across disciplines.
I think what this offers is anopportunity to experiment with
collaboration that is supportive.
It's not always.
I was going to say the wordsafe, and I don't love that word
, either because I don't thinkall people feel safe, or we
(55:45):
should force them the word safe,and I don't love that word,
either because I don't think allpeople feel safe, or we should
force them into feeling safe.
Lara Ayad (55:49):
And I have what do you?
Yeah, can you tell me moreabout that, caitlin?
Because I've heard terms likesafe space thrown around,
especially in like the higher edand university settings a lot,
and I have my own opinions aboutthe utility of that and whether
or not we should even be makingpeople feel safe all the time
in the sense that they mean it.
What do you?
What do you think of that?
Caitlin Dalton (56:10):
so I I do think it's important to recognize, uh
ways in which we are shoring upmarginalizations and uh
ostracizing people, and it'sreally hard to recognize that,
especially if you're in power,especially if you're in a
privileged like as historicallyor currently as privileged group
(56:32):
, which I am as a white woman,right, like not as a woman
necessarily, but as a whiteperson and I think I want to
recognize that I might beignoring, like either dialogue
or issues that could be reallyhard, or re-traumatizing some
issue.
I think that happens and Ithink so we know of cancel
(56:56):
culture.
I think that is that is verymuch present too, and I think
there's a fear of sayinganything.
This is not just among studentsbut among faculty, and I think
(57:21):
that does happen.
So there is like, so this isand I think you know this is
what what the political rightsort of criticizes of the, the
woke culture of the they call itthis, like this fake safe space
or whatever the critiques are.
I I genuinely think there is animportance in fostering a space
(57:45):
in which students feel, I feelas a faculty like, I feel able
to have hard conversations.
It has to be collaborative, andthat's the part where I think
we're not talking about thatenough.
I think it's happening wherethe students are involved in
what kinds of things they wantto do in class in terms of
(58:11):
dialogue, in terms of pushing,you know, hard topics in terms
of what is OK, what's not OK,these kinds of boundaries.
I actually think thoseconversations should happen in
every classroom.
But where the students haveability to add to that those
parameters, then it becomes workobviously for all of us to
(58:32):
actually like implement thoseideas.
And I might also come like youI sounds like I come from a an
encouragement.
I want to encourage hardconversations when those hard
conversations can happen,because where else can they
happen?
I think, in the seminar spacein particular.
(58:55):
This is this, is the this wehave the capacity to push
ourselves and each other toconsider multiple perspectives,
to consider stories that mightnot align with, like everything
that's easy for us and that's, Ithink, crucial to do.
I actually really really wantto encourage that and I
(59:19):
generally see that alsoencouraged among the classes
I've had in recent years.
I think there just as much likethere are ways in which and for
example, yesterday I did say youknow, if this topic of gun
(59:39):
violence is especially personalto you, if it's really hard to
talk about, we're still going totalk about it.
But if you need to mentally toyou, if it's really hard to talk
about, we're still gonna talkabout it.
But if you need to mentallydisengage because it's
overwhelming, if you do need toleave the room, like we can,
like that's fine, right, and Ithink I could, you know, I could
have had a student say it'sinappropriate to even talk about
(01:00:01):
this like, but I don't thinkit's inappropriate to even talk
about this like, but I, I don'tthink it's inappropriate to talk
about right, um, I do think weneed to have those conversations
and I, you know, I hope that wecan push a reasonable um, like
reasonable ideas around safespaces.
I, I don't even, and my classesI say like safe enough, it's
(01:00:22):
safe enough to have.
I think I think it's also just alie, like for us to believe
we're going to be our full safeselves, like the same person we
are in all spaces, in a publicspace where we know, you know,
there's going to be people withvastly differing views who some
(01:00:43):
of them might be reallyopinionated Like I mean, I still
won't feel safe doing that,even as the instructor sometimes
.
So I don't think we need tohave the pretense that everyone
has to be vulnerable, 100%vulnerable at all times and 100%
themselves and exposed and alsooverprot.
(01:01:07):
Protection can go too far and II think I think it's been okay.
Lara Ayad (01:01:13):
but I mean reading news about professors being
totally canceled for showing awork of art, even when they give
a like preface it with, I meanI get frustrated by these things
and by and by canceled you knowwe're talking about cause I've
seen some of these stories too,caitlin by canceled we're
(01:01:33):
talking about like beingsuspended from their job or
maybe even being let go, evensometimes when they have tenure
already, which is supposed to bea form of job security and that
still is not.
It's not a guarantee anymore ofbeing able to stick around,
when it seems like in some ofthese cases, professors are
genuinely trying to like showsomething in order to have the
(01:01:54):
difficult discussion, but itseems like sometimes students
misinterpret that as thisperson's trying to hurt me.
It's like no, actually thisperson has good intentions of
being like hey, we've, our pastis not politically correct.
Our reality is not politicallycorrect.
Caitlin Dalton (01:02:12):
We've got to confront it head on, and so
we're gonna read and see thingsthat are completely like in the
world, like completelyoutlandish and offensive, and
when can we debrief that?
Of course, I think we need someframing.
As instructors and as theuniversity at large, we need to
(01:02:33):
frame things um ahead of timeand after, of course, really
important afterwards, like um tobe able to facilitate
productive discussions.
And I think and this whilewe're talking about this sort of
negative side of um, of cancelculture, which happens in the
(01:02:54):
university just as much as itdoes anywhere else I think I do
think the university is thespace like to your question
about the, the use value of theuniversity, especially the
liberal arts university like Ireally don't see the facilitated
(01:03:14):
convert.
I just can't imagine that sortof facilitated conversation that
respects I mean ideally rightrespects and listens, or like
fosters listening and dialoguerather than like debating all
the time.
I don't see that happeningoutside of that of the
(01:03:36):
university, in that many spacesLike, of course, some dinner
tables, some faith communities,like I believe it happens
somewhere else, but I think,especially in this pivotal time
of moving from, you know, being18 into the world, I think this
is a really important time toactually have like, like have
(01:04:02):
these spaces of of dialogue thatsometimes is uncomfortable, I
think, meaning somebody said itlike if you don't feel
uncomfortable, it's not I'm notdoing my job, right?
There is that sense of like.
We need to be challenged, weneed to think about like all
these artworks are alsochallenging us, right.
(01:04:23):
We also, then, need to bethinking in community with
others, because if we don't,what will happen is we go to the
workplace and we just stay in,stay with people that are
like-minded and possibly moveinto extremism, especially if
we're more and more isolated.
(01:04:44):
I don't, I I think theuniversity is an antidote to
some degree, um, to extremistthought and, um, while it's
claimed, you know, while therhetoric is spewed about it
being one-sided, it probably hasthe, especially if we consider
students and faculty like quitea wide variety of perspectives
(01:05:06):
as opposed to other industries.
Lara Ayad (01:05:08):
So yeah, yeah, that's , yeah, that's a really that's a
really great way of putting it,caitlin, and I think that's a
fascinating perspective and italmost sounds like the
university and its actualpractice brings people together
with different kinds ofperspectives and it's one of the
few places where you can havethese difficult conversations,
(01:05:29):
but in a way that everyoneunderstands like I'm not going
to cancel you, you're totallyfine, no one's going to act
violently, you know things likethat.
At least that's the, that's thehope and, generally speaking,
that tends to be the case.
But, yeah, like you're totallyright.
If you think about it, whatother kinds of places in
people's lives do they have tohave a difficult conversation?
(01:05:50):
That is where they can beexposed to other perspectives in
a way that's relatively secureand stable and there's a mutual
understanding.
Not very much, especially themore and more people.
I think the more and more peopleare on social media on their
phones and like watching newsand there's this like 24 hour
news feed.
Now, man, like it just seemslike universities are actually,
(01:06:12):
ironically enough, are one ofthe last bastions or arenas
where people can actually havethese really productive
conversations and interact withpeople who have very different
perspectives and ways that aremaybe meaningful or life
changing.
So, yeah, I really reallyappreciate that perspective that
(01:06:34):
you're sharing about this andthis has been such a great
conversation and it's been a lotof fun like hearing, kind of
like in a more podcast format,like about your experiences,
your research, what you're doingin the classroom, your students
and like what they're bringingto the table and the meaning of
(01:06:56):
universities and the meaning ofa higher education.
So I want to thank you so muchfor the time and insight that
you've given for this episodeand thank you so much for being
on the Cheeky Scholar.
Caitlin Dalton (01:07:09):
Oh, thank you, Laura, and likewise I'm so
excited for this shedding lightand humanity among the humanity
and various other things.
So thanks for this project thatyou're doing, too, in this
conversation.
Lara Ayad (01:07:26):
Yeah, yeah, awesome, all right, well, thanks a lot,
caitlin, and take care for now.
And yeah, thanks for being here.
Thank you All right, bye,wonder what professors yak about
?
After a couple of beers, pointthat monkey digit at your phone
and hit the subscribe button.
(01:07:47):
You'll get the newest episodesdelivered right to your favorite
podcast app.
Thanks for joining us on theCheeky Scholar and until next
time, keep it real and keep itcheeky.
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