May 31, 2024 • 33 mins
Is Heinz Mack the most undervalued artist of the 20th century? Join Nordic Art Partners Jeppe Curth and art expert Nicholas Robinson on The Collector's Edge as we explore this provocative question and the genius of Mack, most known as the founder of the ZERO movement in the late 1950s and a pioneering figure in the experiential properties of light and colour in abstraction .
We take you through Mack's remarkable journey from his early days at the Kunstakademie in Düsseldorf, to co-founding the influential Zero Movement alongside Otto Piene and Günther Uecker. Discover the core philosophies behind the Zero Movement, which emphasized the power of monochrome, the interplay of light, and the spatial effects of colour. We look at the movement's global impact and the reverence with which Mack was regarded by his artist peers around the world, which encompassed many of the greatest and most prominent avant-garde practitioners of the mid C20th, including iconic figures such as Yves Klein, Lucio Fontana and Yayoi Kusama.
From his early sculptural innovations to his recent "chromatic constellations" paintings, we dissect the multifaceted nature of Mack's art. Hear about his critical acclaim, extraordinary and unrivalled exhibition pedigree including the 1970 Venice Biennale, and the puzzle of his varying market recognition and discussions about why his works remain undervalued today. Whether you're an art enthusiast or a collector, this episode offers compelling insights into why Heinz Mack is one of the titans of C20th modernism and why his legacy is likely to be one to watch out for in the future market.
Episode Image: Heinz Mack, Untitled, 2020, Acrylic on canvas, 94 x 72cm (DETAIL) ©️ Heinz Mack, image courtesy Parra & Romero, Madrid
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Episode Transcript
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Jeppe Curth (00:00):
And welcome to the Collector's Edge from Nordic Art
Partners.
In this episode we will discussthe work and career of Heinz
Mack, a distinctive artist knownfor his pioneering contribution
to the abstraction at themidpoint of the 20th century,
for his founding of the ZeroMovement and his innovative
(00:20):
exploration of light and color.
With me today is, as usual, ourart expert, nicholas Robertson,
and me your host, Jeppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:30):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling, here at Christie's $400million is the bid and the
piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:52):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:12):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well-in informed
in your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:37):
Hi Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (01:38):
Hi Jeppe, how are you doing?
I am fine, thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good, thank you I amfine.
Jeppe Curth (01:43):
Thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you, Nicholas Robison.
A contemporary art expert withmore than 25 years of experience
.
Nick has worked in London andwas in New York for 20 years and
more recently in Copenhagen.
He has worked in the auctionindustry and was a gallerist in
(02:03):
Manhattan for many years.
For the last decade, he hasfocused on heavily
resource-based acquisitions forhis family portfolio for private
high net worth clients, familyoffices and fine art investment
funds.
So today, Heinz Mack yes, HeinzMack.
Can we start by you walking usthrough Heinz Mack, beginning in
(02:25):
the art world and hisbackground?
Nicholas Robinson (02:29):
Yes, Heinz Mack is an interesting and in
some ways a strange artist.
He's one of these artists thatyou can mention his name to
people and they will havesomething about him, perhaps
lurking in the recesses of theirmind, but they can't really put
(02:51):
a finger on who he is, what hedoes, what he's noted for.
Almost like there's not aparticular hook that they're
able to hang his work on, his,his work on um, at least in
terms of what they associate himwith Um.
But Heinz Mack is truly one ofthe great pioneers of
(03:16):
mid-century modernist and had areally seminal role in the
explosion of different kinds ofexperimental contemporary art
practices in the post-war period.
He was born in 1931 and isstill working today.
(03:39):
He studied at the Kunstakademiein Düsseldorf from 1950 until
1956.
Um and then, at the end of thisperiod, along with his uh
student, uh colleague friend uhOtto Piener um he formed uh a
movement, uh called the ZeroMovement, which was joined
(04:05):
shortly thereafter by a slightlymore celebrated artist, günther
Uecker.
Jeppe Curth (04:11):
Please elaborate a bit on that.
What is the Zero Movement?
Nicholas Robinson (04:18):
Well, the Zero Movement.
It was a loosely knit group ofartists that emerged in Germany,
initially formed by Mack andPiena whilst they were students,
and called Zero.
Rather like Ground, Zero is thesort of epicenter of a bomb or
(04:38):
an explosion.
Zero was considered to be thestarting point, um, uh, you know
, uh, a place of, of newbeginnings.
Um, uh, Otto Piena, um coined aphrase to describe it as a zone
of silence and of purepossibilities for a new
(05:00):
beginning.
And uh, he and Mac um composeda poem.
Um composed a poem that goeslike this Zero is silence, Zero
is the beginning, Zero is round,Zero spins, Zero is the moon,
the sun is zero, Zero is white.
(05:20):
The desert, zero.
The sky above zero the night.
So, obviously, that's a very, avery lyrical way of describing
their objectives and obviouslyyou know you, you could have a
chuckle at that.
I think it's quite profound andquite beautiful.
But some of the main themeswere really, to begin with,
(05:42):
monochrome, because really itwas the, the purest departure
from the expressive gestural artthat had um gained in primacy,
uh, in both the european andnorth european art, north
american artistic practices inthe post-war period.
And then, further to theemphasis on, on, on, on the
(06:04):
monochrome, the spatial effectsof color and how this main
constituent component could beaffected by things like light
and vibration and movement focuson collaborative happenings,
(06:27):
events, installations and manyof the early cooperative
exhibitions that the variousartists were involved in
involved self-curated groupexhibitions, self-published
catalogs, moving away from thecult of the artist as an
individualist.
So, as their theories spread,the zero movement was to become
(06:49):
actually the most global artmovement of the mid-20th century
, ended up with activeparticipants in many countries.
So Heinz Mack was regardedamongst his peers as its leader,
and the adherents included manyof the great luminaries of this
period, really legends of 20thcentury art.
(07:10):
In France, notable participantswere Yves Klein and Armand.
In Switzerland, jean Tangley,the great kinetic sculptor.
In Italy, lucio Fontana, pieroManzoni, enrico Castellani and
even a group of artists in Japanthat became very interested in
(07:33):
these theories, especially YayoiKusama.
So this, of course, is a sortof a who's who of the
international avant-gardeintelligentsia, with Mac at the
epicenter as the founder andleader.
Jeppe Curth (07:49):
Thank you, nick.
Very interesting so this zeromovement and these specific
themes.
How does Heinz Mack explorethis in his works and why do you
think this resonates sopowerful and well with the
audience and the collectors?
Nicholas Robinson (08:04):
so powerful and well with the audience and
the collectors.
Well, I mean, I think Heinz isreally not as well known as his
achievements deserve, and Ithink that's for a few reasons.
One, his practice was extremelydiverse.
So he was known as a sculptor.
He made various installations.
He made works with unusualmaterials modern and
(08:29):
contemporary materials,different kinds of metals,
acrylic, things that wouldenable light to be reflected and
refracted in interesting ways.
So he was very much interestedin, so he was very much
interested in, experimentingwith the experiential effects of
(08:50):
light and colour.
I mean, he would describehimself as a sculptor and a
painter.
Most of his work sort of beginsas a painter.
In fact his first works fromthe late 1950s, 1957 really,
they're monochromatic works thatare predicated largely on an
(09:10):
exploration of the grid and youknow they explore registers of
light and dark and a sort ofoscillating movement that
results optically from theirjuxtaposition.
So you know he's becomeassociated with minimalist art.
That's sort of flowed from someof these explorations.
(09:32):
He's been associated withkinetic art for the reasons I've
just described.
He's been associated with opart because of the sort of
jangling vibrancy optically thathis paintings have.
So these are some of hisachievements, or some of the
sort of landmarks of hisproduction, if you like.
Jeppe Curth (09:54):
Okay, and which of Heinz Mack's pieces would you
consider like essential forunderstanding his impact?
Nicholas Robinson (10:01):
Well, he's had an extraordinarily long
career.
I mean, he was born in 1931 andhe's still working today.
Um, he lives in uh,mönchengladbach in Germany and
also in Ibiza, where he keeps astudio as well.
Um, but I would say his earlypaintings, his early black,
white, grisaille paintingsillepaintings, are beautiful,
(10:26):
they're very graphic, butthere's also, you know, clearly,
the sort of hand of the artistin them.
I think that his sculpturalworks made in the late 50s, all
the way through the 1970s, Imean even till the present day,
but I suppose the seminalexamples you can pick out a few
(10:47):
different bodies of work fromthe various periods, but
sculptures with the sort ofinteresting textural surfaces
that enable different effects oflight as it hits the surface,
and then a group of works thatreally are the works that have
captivated our interest and ourattention, are a recent body of
(11:10):
works, by which I mean the last20 years or so, um, that are
called in English, uh, thechromatic constellations, and
these are really a?
Um, uh, well, both adistillation and a culmination
of all of these um areas ofstudy that he's been involved
(11:32):
with for the entirety of hiscareer.
Um, so, so, yeah, yeah, thechromatic constellation.
These are paintings on canvasand they are also somewhat
premised on the grid, and theseconsist of contiguous blocks of
colour and sort of often quitestrange colours, if I may say,
(11:57):
sort of dissonant colours orcolours that would appear to be
dissonant when arrayed alongsideeach other but create very
interesting color harmonies.
These blocks of color.
They're very sort of rigid andordered from a distance, but
then when you scrutinize thepainting more closely you see
(12:18):
that these blocks are much moreuneven, much more brushy, lots
of washes of sort of dry colorbuilt up in glazes, and then the
(12:47):
edges of these blocks they sortof overlap tones where the
colors are of the two blocks aremixing together and they, they
have this very um, yeah, theysort of hum a little bit, if
that's not too strange a way todescribe it.
Um, so you have this reallyinteresting, sophisticated, very
beautiful approach toabstraction and to studies um of
color and light and how thesevarious constituent elements
interact with each other.
Jeppe Curth (13:17):
Well, we have.
We have bought Highz Mack Worksfor ourselves, but also when we
advise clients about Heinz MackWorks, how do you place him
within this current markettrends and historical context?
Nicholas Robinson (13:31):
But his place in the market is very difficult
to place, I have to say.
And for me, for us, when we,when we look at an artist, um,
you know, obviously we are,we're trying to understand the,
the value of an artist, you know, and and by that I mean the
(13:51):
sort of inherent, innate valueof their, of their achievement,
their contribution.
We like to see how an artistfits into history, and not just
where did they fit into history?
It's, did they activelyinfluence history and did they
(14:15):
change the course of artisticproduction with the things that
they were saying and doing?
Um, and and obviously, for, forthe case of Heinz Mack, that is
a very uh, obviously, um,resonant, yes, um, so we can see
that he's, he's, he's an artistof of of huge importance.
(14:39):
And often when we look atartists, we try and understand
how they were received at thesort of inception of their
career.
What was the critical receptionlike, what was the
institutional reception like?
But this has been going on solong for Heinz that it's really
much more pertinent to say whathas he not done, what has he not
(15:04):
achieved?
And the answer is reallynothing.
Germany, at the 1970 edition ofthe Venice Biennale, he's had
(15:24):
450 odd exhibitions worldwidesince beginning of his career in
the late 1950s.
Um, he's, um, you know you.
You ask what, what museums, uh,is is he in?
I mean, there are no museumshe's not in.
I mean, he's in more than 150institutions worldwide.
So it's, there's a universalacclaim for Heinz Mack and yet,
(15:48):
to go back to my openingcomments, there are so many
responses that range from yeah,heinz Mack, heinz Mack, to yeah,
yeah, what you know what did hedo again?
And I think it's incrediblyinteresting to try, and you know
, investigate that sort ofphenomenon.
Thank you, nick.
Jeppe Curth (16:07):
But what I also meant was what part of Heinz
Mack's works do you find mostappealing to collectors when
considering them for acquisition?
Is it the visual, is it thehistory, is it the data, or is
it a mix of it?
Nicholas Robinson (16:19):
Well, of course it's a mix of all of
those things.
I mean, you can respond tosomething in a very visceral way
, you can follow up on yourcuriosity and your enthusiasm,
and you can yeah you can verifythe information that I've just
described about his very obviouscredentials.
(16:42):
Um, you know, we we take a lookat the galleries that that show
the work.
We we try and understand whatkind of availability is there,
what kind of demand is there forthe work, what kind of supplies
there for the work?
Um, I mean, heinz has hasreally nice galleries.
He works with um uh uh, paraand Romero in Madrid, which is a
(17:03):
wonderful gallery.
Um, he shows with SperoniWestwater in New York and, of
course, they need nointroduction he shows with Ben
Brown in London, presumably inHong Kong, where Ben also has
exhibition spaces.
Um, he shows with Nara Roslerin Brazil.
Um, which also had a kind ofinteresting relationship with um
(17:28):
the zero movement.
So you know, he's, he's wellrepresented um around the world
with highly credible places thatare very serious in the
championing of their, of theirartists.
Um, so, yeah, uh, we we've gota lot of information that that
gives us a lot of faith that uh,he's, he's well looked after.
(17:53):
But, but, uh, but you knowthere's there's more to it than
that.
I mean, I I don't always gettoo hung up on, you know, if
there's lots of people clamoringfor the work if it's a highly
inelastic supply and far toomany people that want things.
You know, sometimes the bestthings are hidden in plain sight
(18:14):
sight.
And you know there's just thesestrange historical accidents
where the market has not reallycaught up to the art history.
But invariably that's somethingthat gets dismantled over time
and changes.
So you know, if there's peoplenot knocking down the door for
(18:35):
Heinz Mack paintings, that'sfine, that's good.
That means there's moreinteresting things, at least in
the meantime, for us to be ableto look at and choose from and
acquire.
Jeppe Curth (18:45):
Yes, that makes sense.
I believe that his recordauction result is $3.5 million,
for for a large sculpture andlarge-scale painting is around
$900,000.
Could you maybe share a littlebit inside on the primary prices
(19:07):
from galleries?
Nicholas Robinson (19:10):
Sure, I mean, I think that the works that you
mentioned must have been worksfrom the late 1950s.
I mean, all of Heinz Mack'svery biggest prices relate to
the beginning of his sort ofinfluential period.
The paintings that I mentioned,the chromatic constellation
(19:33):
paintings, which I think areextremely interesting things to
look into, paintings which Ithink are extremely interesting
things to look into.
They, for a modest size picture, maybe 50, 60 centimeters
you're looking at maybe 60 to$80,000.
For a big two and a half threemeter painting, you're looking
(19:53):
at five or $600 thousand dollars, most likely.
Um, if you want to buy ahistoric painting from the late
1950s, then you can, dependingon the size and the quality.
Um, you know, important earlyworks can be acquired for
anywhere from 350, 400 000 eurosup to a million more or less.
(20:16):
So this gives a bit of aguideline.
There's some very nice works onpaper from the late 1950s that
aesthetically bear all thehallmarks that you would want,
but the sort of hierarchy of themedium makes them pretty
affordable.
They can be anywhere from sortof 80 to $120,000.
(20:38):
And they're extremely importanthistoric works.
Um, and I think, I think, whenwe, you know, when we, when you
ask about sort of price.
You know there's there's anartist's price relative to uh
himself or herself, differentperiods of importance, different
uh importance, differentoutputs they had made, which are
(21:00):
maybe more or less popular andmore or less expensive as a
result.
But I think we're also reallyinterested in, when we look at
an artist, we look at the costof an artist's work relative to
the industry as a whole.
You know, how does an artist'sprice relate to the cost of the
(21:21):
work of his or her peers?
You know, if we buy work bythis artist, you know what is
the opportunity cost of that.
What are we not able to buyinstead, because we're
committing resources to thisartist and I think for me, heinz
Mack's work is extremely,extremely affordable.
(21:43):
Um, uh, and I think you knowthere's a couple of really,
really nice anecdotes aboutHeinz Mack, uh and his early,
early, early days, um, that tome are very instructive about
his relative importance andthese stories.
(22:07):
They speak to his status andhis reputation amongst his peers
, and these stories were told tome actually by Guillermo in
Madrid, who is an extremelyeloquent advocate for Heinz's
work.
In any event, heinz, I think inthe late 1950s or maybe the
very early 1960s, was travelingto Paris and he was going to
(22:29):
meet with Yves Klein, and whenhe visited Klein, Klein made a
big sort of performative gestureof deference to Mac, the
founder of Xero and, in Klein'sview, this great master.
So Klein gave up his bed sothat Heinz Mac could sleep in it
(22:51):
and then Klein slept on thefloor alongside as a sort of a
gesture of subservience andrespect side, as a sort of a
gesture of subservience and andrespect.
Um, and and the other fun, funstory that I enjoyed very much
Um, when Mac had his firstexhibition, a lot of the works
in it were sculptural works andthere was one piece that was
(23:13):
sold.
And this is, of course, notuncommon in in in an artist's,
uh, the beginning of an artist'scareer, when nobody knows who
they are or what they stand foror what they do, and you have to
get a response and you have toget some momentum.
Um, a couple of years later, macwas traveling to Italy where he
was going to visit, uh, lucioFontana.
(23:35):
And so he goes into Fontana'sstudio and on Fontana's
workbench he sees this sculpture.
So he learns that his firstever patron, the first ever
acquirer of Mac's work from acommercial context, was Lucio
Fontana.
So I mean, you look at, youlook at these two artists' work
(23:59):
and you see how sort of gigantictheir reputation and their the
prices of their works, and you,you hark back to these anecdotes
and you think of the regard inwhich Mack was held by these
guys, and then you see, you knowwhat Heinz Mack's work costs in
relation to their work, and youknow, you know what Heinz Max
work costs in relation to theirwork, and you know, rationally,
(24:21):
it actually makes it actuallymakes no sense.
Um, so, so, so, yeah, so, ofcourse there's many contextual
things that we take into accountwhen we try and ascertain value
and of course, there's a bigsliding scale of criteria, um,
uh, by which we, by which weassess value.
Jeppe Curth (24:59):
Well, Nick, from a putting money into art
perspective, how do you seeHeinz Mack's work fitting into a
well-created art collection?
Nicholas Robinson (25:04):
I see Mack's work as sort of essential,
definitive 20th centuryabstraction.
I think that he is that key andthat important.
You know, when you look at thedevelopment of art in the 20th
century, you know in the in the,the 20th century is
(25:25):
characterized by lots ofdifferent movements that all
have very kind of complicatedtheories, justifications,
philosophies that explain whatthey do and why.
But one of the key things ofthe 20th century is the sort of
dichotomy between figuration andabstraction.
(25:46):
And if you look at theabstraction trajectory, you know
abstraction is primarily aboutthe constituent components of a
painting.
What is a painting?
It's line and color and form ofsome description on a flat
surface, really sort ofpuritanically um, adherent to
(26:13):
this and he did, did it in inreally interesting, innovative
ways.
Um, he made his first black andwhite paintings in 1957.
Um, and for contrast, it wasn'tuntil 1959, fully two years
later, that Frank Stellaannounced himself to the world,
uh, in the museum of modernArt's 16 Americans exhibition,
and it wasn't until 1960 that heexhibited works from this group
(26:36):
in the first show at CastelliGallery.
So you know, these worksrepresent the cornerstone of
Stella's reputation and he, Isuppose, is considered the
absolute sort of master forinnovating this at the midpoint
of the 20th century.
Yet it could so readily beargued that it was Mack who had
already paved the way for suchan achievement.
(26:58):
So that's how key Mack is.
And you know Mack as a Germanartist studying at the
Kunstakademie in Düsseldorf, hewould have been well grounded in
the sort of German intellectualcolor theorists of the earliest
20th century.
I mean, if you look at the, ifyou look at the faculty at the
Bauhaus, and you, you see the,you see the, the lessons, uh,
(27:22):
the theories, um uh, elucidatedby, um, by Kandinsky and Paul
Clay, and then you see, you know, you fast forward 80 years to
painters like Stanley Whitney,for instance, whose work also
costs millions of dollars insome instances.
(27:43):
Heinz Mack is literally andfiguratively the bridge between,
you know, these early um sortof protagonists of color theory,
to, you know, to artistsworking today that have become
enormously celebrated in themarket, um.
So, by any, by any criteria,any historic criteria, any, any
(28:07):
uh achievements, criteria, anyachievements, any critical
appraisal achievements, mack isa titan of the art world, and so
of course it follows, as far aswe're concerned, that at some
point a proper reckoning willtake place whereby he's properly
(28:28):
appreciated in the way that hiswork deserves.
Jeppe Curth (28:30):
So adding Heinz Mack to your collection today
would be a smart acquisition andalso something that's
appreciated over time.
Nicholas Robinson (28:43):
But my opinion is, undoubtedly, my
feeling is how can this nothappen, given what we know and
what I've just described?
But you know, even further tothat, the paintings are
extremely reasonably priced andthey are just sumptuous essays
of light and color.
And you know the, the, the, the, the, the purity of these works
(29:04):
, the joy in these works, thequality of execution in these
works, I mean, they're, they're,they're very, they're very
rigid and programmatic, butthere's also a great deal of
levity and a great deal ofexpression, also within the sort
of rule-based confines of theway that he evolves his
paintings.
So I mean, I just find them tobe just outstanding, outstanding
(29:28):
works unto themselves them tobe just outstanding, outstanding
works unto themselves.
Okay, so could you maybe thensummarize the key points to make
a heinz mack work attractiveaddition to a collection yes, uh
, I guess, um, if we distill thethings that we've, we've
learned and we've talked aboutum, he's, you know, a historic
figure, uh, almost unrivaled ifyou sort of tick off the CV
(29:53):
achievements.
He's actually going to have aretrospective, I believe in 2025
, beginning at the PhiladelphiaArt Museum, which is a fantastic
museum and that hopefully willbring a new audience and new
sets of eyes to his work, um,and, and you know, to, to, to
(30:16):
give new appreciation to whathe's managed to do.
Um, so that's, you know, his,his museological reputation,
institutional reputation,critical reputation, fantastic,
still working, still exhibiting,um, uh, a litany of of great
galleries around the world thatrepresent the work.
Um.
You know, sometimes we getexcited by artists when it's
(30:41):
clear that a revival is alreadyunderway and we feel maybe
vindicated by our choices.
But sometimes we get excitedwhen no revival is underway, no
rumblings of such, and it's justfeels opportune that, you know,
it's sort of an open, openseason for us to get involved in
the work before, before it'stoo late, yes, and we are very
(31:03):
happy with our acquisition ofmac works.
Jeppe Curth (31:06):
But for people that maybe want to get started,
where should they startexploring his works?
Nicholas Robinson (31:12):
well, I mean his works everywhere, even if
you don't realize it.
We were in in a small museum inolborg in northern jutland, um
just a couple of weeks ago andamongst all the local artists
that, with all due respect,nobody anywhere has ever heard
of um, there were three or fourHeinz Mack paintings, sort of
strangely plonked in the middleof this mid-century section, um.
(31:35):
So I mean you can go to anymuseum uh that has you know that
purports to have a survey of20th century works, and you'll
find his work.
Um.
Obviously there's there's manysources that one can look at
online.
I mentioned his, his galleries.
They all have really nicebiographical information, really
(31:55):
nice images that um showtypical works of his Um.
He has a website himself whichis a really nice historic
archive.
Um as well.
I believe the zero art movementhas a foundation, and so you
can see more about his workthere, also how his work relates
(32:17):
to his, his peers um globallyfrom this very important period
in the 20th century.
Um.
It's not difficult to learn alot about him, and in the course
of doing so it becomesastounding that he's not in fact
a household name like basicallyall of his peers.
Jeppe Curth (32:43):
Thank you, Nick.
So I think we are in the end ofthis episode.
Do you have anything more toadd?
Nicholas Robinson (32:54):
No, I mean, that's my homage to Mac.
I'm very passionate about hiswork and I really, really urge
people to go and take a look atit.
Jeppe Curth (33:05):
Great.
Thank you, and if you have anyquestions or you maybe just want
to buy some art, you can alwayscatch us on our email at jeppe
at nordicartpartnerscom.
And thank you, Nick, for thisepisode.
Nicholas Robinson (33:18):
Thank you, jeppe.
Yes, bye, bye.
And welcome to the Collector's Edge from Nordic Art
Partners.
In this episode we will discussthe work and career of Heinz
Mack, a distinctive artist knownfor his pioneering contribution
to the abstraction at themidpoint of the 20th century,
for his founding of the ZeroMovement and his innovative
(00:20):
exploration of light and color.
With me today is, as usual, ourart expert, nicholas Robertson,
and me your host, Jeppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:30):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling, here at Christie's $400million is the bid and the
piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:52):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:12):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well-in informed
in your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:37):
Hi Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (01:38):
Hi Jeppe, how are you doing?
I am fine, thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good, thank you I amfine.
Jeppe Curth (01:43):
Thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you, Nicholas Robison.
A contemporary art expert withmore than 25 years of experience
.
Nick has worked in London andwas in New York for 20 years and
more recently in Copenhagen.
He has worked in the auctionindustry and was a gallerist in
(02:03):
Manhattan for many years.
For the last decade, he hasfocused on heavily
resource-based acquisitions forhis family portfolio for private
high net worth clients, familyoffices and fine art investment
funds.
So today, Heinz Mack yes, HeinzMack.
Can we start by you walking usthrough Heinz Mack, beginning in
(02:25):
the art world and hisbackground?
Nicholas Robinson (02:29):
Yes, Heinz Mack is an interesting and in
some ways a strange artist.
He's one of these artists thatyou can mention his name to
people and they will havesomething about him, perhaps
lurking in the recesses of theirmind, but they can't really put
(02:51):
a finger on who he is, what hedoes, what he's noted for.
Almost like there's not aparticular hook that they're
able to hang his work on, his,his work on um, at least in
terms of what they associate himwith Um.
But Heinz Mack is truly one ofthe great pioneers of
(03:16):
mid-century modernist and had areally seminal role in the
explosion of different kinds ofexperimental contemporary art
practices in the post-war period.
He was born in 1931 and isstill working today.
(03:39):
He studied at the Kunstakademiein Düsseldorf from 1950 until
1956.
Um and then, at the end of thisperiod, along with his uh
student, uh colleague friend uhOtto Piener um he formed uh a
movement, uh called the ZeroMovement, which was joined
(04:05):
shortly thereafter by a slightlymore celebrated artist, günther
Uecker.
Jeppe Curth (04:11):
Please elaborate a bit on that.
What is the Zero Movement?
Nicholas Robinson (04:18):
Well, the Zero Movement.
It was a loosely knit group ofartists that emerged in Germany,
initially formed by Mack andPiena whilst they were students,
and called Zero.
Rather like Ground, Zero is thesort of epicenter of a bomb or
(04:38):
an explosion.
Zero was considered to be thestarting point, um, uh, you know
, uh, a place of, of newbeginnings.
Um, uh, Otto Piena, um coined aphrase to describe it as a zone
of silence and of purepossibilities for a new
(05:00):
beginning.
And uh, he and Mac um composeda poem.
Um composed a poem that goeslike this Zero is silence, Zero
is the beginning, Zero is round,Zero spins, Zero is the moon,
the sun is zero, Zero is white.
(05:20):
The desert, zero.
The sky above zero the night.
So, obviously, that's a very, avery lyrical way of describing
their objectives and obviouslyyou know you, you could have a
chuckle at that.
I think it's quite profound andquite beautiful.
But some of the main themeswere really, to begin with,
(05:42):
monochrome, because really itwas the, the purest departure
from the expressive gestural artthat had um gained in primacy,
uh, in both the european andnorth european art, north
american artistic practices inthe post-war period.
And then, further to theemphasis on, on, on, on the
(06:04):
monochrome, the spatial effectsof color and how this main
constituent component could beaffected by things like light
and vibration and movement focuson collaborative happenings,
(06:27):
events, installations and manyof the early cooperative
exhibitions that the variousartists were involved in
involved self-curated groupexhibitions, self-published
catalogs, moving away from thecult of the artist as an
individualist.
So, as their theories spread,the zero movement was to become
(06:49):
actually the most global artmovement of the mid-20th century
, ended up with activeparticipants in many countries.
So Heinz Mack was regardedamongst his peers as its leader,
and the adherents included manyof the great luminaries of this
period, really legends of 20thcentury art.
(07:10):
In France, notable participantswere Yves Klein and Armand.
In Switzerland, jean Tangley,the great kinetic sculptor.
In Italy, lucio Fontana, pieroManzoni, enrico Castellani and
even a group of artists in Japanthat became very interested in
(07:33):
these theories, especially YayoiKusama.
So this, of course, is a sortof a who's who of the
international avant-gardeintelligentsia, with Mac at the
epicenter as the founder andleader.
Jeppe Curth (07:49):
Thank you, nick.
Very interesting so this zeromovement and these specific
themes.
How does Heinz Mack explorethis in his works and why do you
think this resonates sopowerful and well with the
audience and the collectors?
Nicholas Robinson (08:04):
so powerful and well with the audience and
the collectors.
Well, I mean, I think Heinz isreally not as well known as his
achievements deserve, and Ithink that's for a few reasons.
One, his practice was extremelydiverse.
So he was known as a sculptor.
He made various installations.
He made works with unusualmaterials modern and
(08:29):
contemporary materials,different kinds of metals,
acrylic, things that wouldenable light to be reflected and
refracted in interesting ways.
So he was very much interestedin, so he was very much
interested in, experimentingwith the experiential effects of
(08:50):
light and colour.
I mean, he would describehimself as a sculptor and a
painter.
Most of his work sort of beginsas a painter.
In fact his first works fromthe late 1950s, 1957 really,
they're monochromatic works thatare predicated largely on an
(09:10):
exploration of the grid and youknow they explore registers of
light and dark and a sort ofoscillating movement that
results optically from theirjuxtaposition.
So you know he's becomeassociated with minimalist art.
That's sort of flowed from someof these explorations.
(09:32):
He's been associated withkinetic art for the reasons I've
just described.
He's been associated with opart because of the sort of
jangling vibrancy optically thathis paintings have.
So these are some of hisachievements, or some of the
sort of landmarks of hisproduction, if you like.
Jeppe Curth (09:54):
Okay, and which of Heinz Mack's pieces would you
consider like essential forunderstanding his impact?
Nicholas Robinson (10:01):
Well, he's had an extraordinarily long
career.
I mean, he was born in 1931 andhe's still working today.
Um, he lives in uh,mönchengladbach in Germany and
also in Ibiza, where he keeps astudio as well.
Um, but I would say his earlypaintings, his early black,
white, grisaille paintingsillepaintings, are beautiful,
(10:26):
they're very graphic, butthere's also, you know, clearly,
the sort of hand of the artistin them.
I think that his sculpturalworks made in the late 50s, all
the way through the 1970s, Imean even till the present day,
but I suppose the seminalexamples you can pick out a few
(10:47):
different bodies of work fromthe various periods, but
sculptures with the sort ofinteresting textural surfaces
that enable different effects oflight as it hits the surface,
and then a group of works thatreally are the works that have
captivated our interest and ourattention, are a recent body of
(11:10):
works, by which I mean the last20 years or so, um, that are
called in English, uh, thechromatic constellations, and
these are really a?
Um, uh, well, both adistillation and a culmination
of all of these um areas ofstudy that he's been involved
(11:32):
with for the entirety of hiscareer.
Um, so, so, yeah, yeah, thechromatic constellation.
These are paintings on canvasand they are also somewhat
premised on the grid, and theseconsist of contiguous blocks of
colour and sort of often quitestrange colours, if I may say,
(11:57):
sort of dissonant colours orcolours that would appear to be
dissonant when arrayed alongsideeach other but create very
interesting color harmonies.
These blocks of color.
They're very sort of rigid andordered from a distance, but
then when you scrutinize thepainting more closely you see
(12:18):
that these blocks are much moreuneven, much more brushy, lots
of washes of sort of dry colorbuilt up in glazes, and then the
(12:47):
edges of these blocks they sortof overlap tones where the
colors are of the two blocks aremixing together and they, they
have this very um, yeah, theysort of hum a little bit, if
that's not too strange a way todescribe it.
Um, so you have this reallyinteresting, sophisticated, very
beautiful approach toabstraction and to studies um of
color and light and how thesevarious constituent elements
interact with each other.
Jeppe Curth (13:17):
Well, we have.
We have bought Highz Mack Worksfor ourselves, but also when we
advise clients about Heinz MackWorks, how do you place him
within this current markettrends and historical context?
Nicholas Robinson (13:31):
But his place in the market is very difficult
to place, I have to say.
And for me, for us, when we,when we look at an artist, um,
you know, obviously we are,we're trying to understand the,
the value of an artist, you know, and and by that I mean the
(13:51):
sort of inherent, innate valueof their, of their achievement,
their contribution.
We like to see how an artistfits into history, and not just
where did they fit into history?
It's, did they activelyinfluence history and did they
(14:15):
change the course of artisticproduction with the things that
they were saying and doing?
Um, and and obviously, for, forthe case of Heinz Mack, that is
a very uh, obviously, um,resonant, yes, um, so we can see
that he's, he's, he's an artistof of of huge importance.
(14:39):
And often when we look atartists, we try and understand
how they were received at thesort of inception of their
career.
What was the critical receptionlike, what was the
institutional reception like?
But this has been going on solong for Heinz that it's really
much more pertinent to say whathas he not done, what has he not
(15:04):
achieved?
And the answer is reallynothing.
Germany, at the 1970 edition ofthe Venice Biennale, he's had
(15:24):
450 odd exhibitions worldwidesince beginning of his career in
the late 1950s.
Um, he's, um, you know you.
You ask what, what museums, uh,is is he in?
I mean, there are no museumshe's not in.
I mean, he's in more than 150institutions worldwide.
So it's, there's a universalacclaim for Heinz Mack and yet,
(15:48):
to go back to my openingcomments, there are so many
responses that range from yeah,heinz Mack, heinz Mack, to yeah,
yeah, what you know what did hedo again?
And I think it's incrediblyinteresting to try, and you know
, investigate that sort ofphenomenon.
Thank you, nick.
Jeppe Curth (16:07):
But what I also meant was what part of Heinz
Mack's works do you find mostappealing to collectors when
considering them for acquisition?
Is it the visual, is it thehistory, is it the data, or is
it a mix of it?
Nicholas Robinson (16:19):
Well, of course it's a mix of all of
those things.
I mean, you can respond tosomething in a very visceral way
, you can follow up on yourcuriosity and your enthusiasm,
and you can yeah you can verifythe information that I've just
described about his very obviouscredentials.
(16:42):
Um, you know, we we take a lookat the galleries that that show
the work.
We we try and understand whatkind of availability is there,
what kind of demand is there forthe work, what kind of supplies
there for the work?
Um, I mean, heinz has hasreally nice galleries.
He works with um uh uh, paraand Romero in Madrid, which is a
(17:03):
wonderful gallery.
Um, he shows with SperoniWestwater in New York and, of
course, they need nointroduction he shows with Ben
Brown in London, presumably inHong Kong, where Ben also has
exhibition spaces.
Um, he shows with Nara Roslerin Brazil.
Um, which also had a kind ofinteresting relationship with um
(17:28):
the zero movement.
So you know, he's, he's wellrepresented um around the world
with highly credible places thatare very serious in the
championing of their, of theirartists.
Um, so, yeah, uh, we we've gota lot of information that that
gives us a lot of faith that uh,he's, he's well looked after.
(17:53):
But, but, uh, but you knowthere's there's more to it than
that.
I mean, I I don't always gettoo hung up on, you know, if
there's lots of people clamoringfor the work if it's a highly
inelastic supply and far toomany people that want things.
You know, sometimes the bestthings are hidden in plain sight
(18:14):
sight.
And you know there's just thesestrange historical accidents
where the market has not reallycaught up to the art history.
But invariably that's somethingthat gets dismantled over time
and changes.
So you know, if there's peoplenot knocking down the door for
(18:35):
Heinz Mack paintings, that'sfine, that's good.
That means there's moreinteresting things, at least in
the meantime, for us to be ableto look at and choose from and
acquire.
Jeppe Curth (18:45):
Yes, that makes sense.
I believe that his recordauction result is $3.5 million,
for for a large sculpture andlarge-scale painting is around
$900,000.
Could you maybe share a littlebit inside on the primary prices
(19:07):
from galleries?
Nicholas Robinson (19:10):
Sure, I mean, I think that the works that you
mentioned must have been worksfrom the late 1950s.
I mean, all of Heinz Mack'svery biggest prices relate to
the beginning of his sort ofinfluential period.
The paintings that I mentioned,the chromatic constellation
(19:33):
paintings, which I think areextremely interesting things to
look into, paintings which Ithink are extremely interesting
things to look into.
They, for a modest size picture, maybe 50, 60 centimeters
you're looking at maybe 60 to$80,000.
For a big two and a half threemeter painting, you're looking
(19:53):
at five or $600 thousand dollars, most likely.
Um, if you want to buy ahistoric painting from the late
1950s, then you can, dependingon the size and the quality.
Um, you know, important earlyworks can be acquired for
anywhere from 350, 400 000 eurosup to a million more or less.
(20:16):
So this gives a bit of aguideline.
There's some very nice works onpaper from the late 1950s that
aesthetically bear all thehallmarks that you would want,
but the sort of hierarchy of themedium makes them pretty
affordable.
They can be anywhere from sortof 80 to $120,000.
(20:38):
And they're extremely importanthistoric works.
Um, and I think, I think, whenwe, you know, when we, when you
ask about sort of price.
You know there's there's anartist's price relative to uh
himself or herself, differentperiods of importance, different
uh importance, differentoutputs they had made, which are
(21:00):
maybe more or less popular andmore or less expensive as a
result.
But I think we're also reallyinterested in, when we look at
an artist, we look at the costof an artist's work relative to
the industry as a whole.
You know, how does an artist'sprice relate to the cost of the
(21:21):
work of his or her peers?
You know, if we buy work bythis artist, you know what is
the opportunity cost of that.
What are we not able to buyinstead, because we're
committing resources to thisartist and I think for me, heinz
Mack's work is extremely,extremely affordable.
(21:43):
Um, uh, and I think you knowthere's a couple of really,
really nice anecdotes aboutHeinz Mack, uh and his early,
early, early days, um, that tome are very instructive about
his relative importance andthese stories.
(22:07):
They speak to his status andhis reputation amongst his peers
, and these stories were told tome actually by Guillermo in
Madrid, who is an extremelyeloquent advocate for Heinz's
work.
In any event, heinz, I think inthe late 1950s or maybe the
very early 1960s, was travelingto Paris and he was going to
(22:29):
meet with Yves Klein, and whenhe visited Klein, Klein made a
big sort of performative gestureof deference to Mac, the
founder of Xero and, in Klein'sview, this great master.
So Klein gave up his bed sothat Heinz Mac could sleep in it
(22:51):
and then Klein slept on thefloor alongside as a sort of a
gesture of subservience andrespect side, as a sort of a
gesture of subservience and andrespect.
Um, and and the other fun, funstory that I enjoyed very much
Um, when Mac had his firstexhibition, a lot of the works
in it were sculptural works andthere was one piece that was
(23:13):
sold.
And this is, of course, notuncommon in in in an artist's,
uh, the beginning of an artist'scareer, when nobody knows who
they are or what they stand foror what they do, and you have to
get a response and you have toget some momentum.
Um, a couple of years later, macwas traveling to Italy where he
was going to visit, uh, lucioFontana.
(23:35):
And so he goes into Fontana'sstudio and on Fontana's
workbench he sees this sculpture.
So he learns that his firstever patron, the first ever
acquirer of Mac's work from acommercial context, was Lucio
Fontana.
So I mean, you look at, youlook at these two artists' work
(23:59):
and you see how sort of gigantictheir reputation and their the
prices of their works, and you,you hark back to these anecdotes
and you think of the regard inwhich Mack was held by these
guys, and then you see, you knowwhat Heinz Mack's work costs in
relation to their work, and youknow, you know what Heinz Max
work costs in relation to theirwork, and you know, rationally,
(24:21):
it actually makes it actuallymakes no sense.
Um, so, so, so, yeah, so, ofcourse there's many contextual
things that we take into accountwhen we try and ascertain value
and of course, there's a bigsliding scale of criteria, um,
uh, by which we, by which weassess value.
Jeppe Curth (24:59):
Well, Nick, from a putting money into art
perspective, how do you seeHeinz Mack's work fitting into a
well-created art collection?
Nicholas Robinson (25:04):
I see Mack's work as sort of essential,
definitive 20th centuryabstraction.
I think that he is that key andthat important.
You know, when you look at thedevelopment of art in the 20th
century, you know in the in the,the 20th century is
(25:25):
characterized by lots ofdifferent movements that all
have very kind of complicatedtheories, justifications,
philosophies that explain whatthey do and why.
But one of the key things ofthe 20th century is the sort of
dichotomy between figuration andabstraction.
(25:46):
And if you look at theabstraction trajectory, you know
abstraction is primarily aboutthe constituent components of a
painting.
What is a painting?
It's line and color and form ofsome description on a flat
surface, really sort ofpuritanically um, adherent to
(26:13):
this and he did, did it in inreally interesting, innovative
ways.
Um, he made his first black andwhite paintings in 1957.
Um, and for contrast, it wasn'tuntil 1959, fully two years
later, that Frank Stellaannounced himself to the world,
uh, in the museum of modernArt's 16 Americans exhibition,
and it wasn't until 1960 that heexhibited works from this group
(26:36):
in the first show at CastelliGallery.
So you know, these worksrepresent the cornerstone of
Stella's reputation and he, Isuppose, is considered the
absolute sort of master forinnovating this at the midpoint
of the 20th century.
Yet it could so readily beargued that it was Mack who had
already paved the way for suchan achievement.
(26:58):
So that's how key Mack is.
And you know Mack as a Germanartist studying at the
Kunstakademie in Düsseldorf, hewould have been well grounded in
the sort of German intellectualcolor theorists of the earliest
20th century.
I mean, if you look at the, ifyou look at the faculty at the
Bauhaus, and you, you see the,you see the, the lessons, uh,
(27:22):
the theories, um uh, elucidatedby, um, by Kandinsky and Paul
Clay, and then you see, you know, you fast forward 80 years to
painters like Stanley Whitney,for instance, whose work also
costs millions of dollars insome instances.
(27:43):
Heinz Mack is literally andfiguratively the bridge between,
you know, these early um sortof protagonists of color theory,
to, you know, to artistsworking today that have become
enormously celebrated in themarket, um.
So, by any, by any criteria,any historic criteria, any, any
(28:07):
uh achievements, criteria, anyachievements, any critical
appraisal achievements, mack isa titan of the art world, and so
of course it follows, as far aswe're concerned, that at some
point a proper reckoning willtake place whereby he's properly
(28:28):
appreciated in the way that hiswork deserves.
Jeppe Curth (28:30):
So adding Heinz Mack to your collection today
would be a smart acquisition andalso something that's
appreciated over time.
Nicholas Robinson (28:43):
But my opinion is, undoubtedly, my
feeling is how can this nothappen, given what we know and
what I've just described?
But you know, even further tothat, the paintings are
extremely reasonably priced andthey are just sumptuous essays
of light and color.
And you know the, the, the, the, the, the purity of these works
(29:04):
, the joy in these works, thequality of execution in these
works, I mean, they're, they're,they're very, they're very
rigid and programmatic, butthere's also a great deal of
levity and a great deal ofexpression, also within the sort
of rule-based confines of theway that he evolves his
paintings.
So I mean, I just find them tobe just outstanding, outstanding
(29:28):
works unto themselves them tobe just outstanding, outstanding
works unto themselves.
Okay, so could you maybe thensummarize the key points to make
a heinz mack work attractiveaddition to a collection yes, uh
, I guess, um, if we distill thethings that we've, we've
learned and we've talked aboutum, he's, you know, a historic
figure, uh, almost unrivaled ifyou sort of tick off the CV
(29:53):
achievements.
He's actually going to have aretrospective, I believe in 2025
, beginning at the PhiladelphiaArt Museum, which is a fantastic
museum and that hopefully willbring a new audience and new
sets of eyes to his work, um,and, and you know, to, to, to
(30:16):
give new appreciation to whathe's managed to do.
Um, so that's, you know, his,his museological reputation,
institutional reputation,critical reputation, fantastic,
still working, still exhibiting,um, uh, a litany of of great
galleries around the world thatrepresent the work.
Um.
You know, sometimes we getexcited by artists when it's
(30:41):
clear that a revival is alreadyunderway and we feel maybe
vindicated by our choices.
But sometimes we get excitedwhen no revival is underway, no
rumblings of such, and it's justfeels opportune that, you know,
it's sort of an open, openseason for us to get involved in
the work before, before it'stoo late, yes, and we are very
(31:03):
happy with our acquisition ofmac works.
Jeppe Curth (31:06):
But for people that maybe want to get started,
where should they startexploring his works?
Nicholas Robinson (31:12):
well, I mean his works everywhere, even if
you don't realize it.
We were in in a small museum inolborg in northern jutland, um
just a couple of weeks ago andamongst all the local artists
that, with all due respect,nobody anywhere has ever heard
of um, there were three or fourHeinz Mack paintings, sort of
strangely plonked in the middleof this mid-century section, um.
(31:35):
So I mean you can go to anymuseum uh that has you know that
purports to have a survey of20th century works, and you'll
find his work.
Um.
Obviously there's there's manysources that one can look at
online.
I mentioned his, his galleries.
They all have really nicebiographical information, really
(31:55):
nice images that um showtypical works of his Um.
He has a website himself whichis a really nice historic
archive.
Um as well.
I believe the zero art movementhas a foundation, and so you
can see more about his workthere, also how his work relates
(32:17):
to his, his peers um globallyfrom this very important period
in the 20th century.
Um.
It's not difficult to learn alot about him, and in the course
of doing so it becomesastounding that he's not in fact
a household name like basicallyall of his peers.
Jeppe Curth (32:43):
Thank you, Nick.
So I think we are in the end ofthis episode.
Do you have anything more toadd?
Nicholas Robinson (32:54):
No, I mean, that's my homage to Mac.
I'm very passionate about hiswork and I really, really urge
people to go and take a look atit.
Jeppe Curth (33:05):
Great.
Thank you, and if you have anyquestions or you maybe just want
to buy some art, you can alwayscatch us on our email at jeppe
at nordicartpartnerscom.
And thank you, Nick, for thisepisode.
Nicholas Robinson (33:18):
Thank you, jeppe.
Yes, bye, bye.
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