October 28, 2024 • 42 mins
From the inception of his art career in 1968, Knoebel's work has been consistently driven by a quest to pare painting (and art generally) back to its absolute essentials. From an interest in readily available, humble materials to the manner in which colours can relate to other colours to create works of meditative intensity, his is an art that has always tried to distil and simplify, rather than become more complex.
Our art expert, Nicholas Robinson, and your host Jeppe Curth guide us through Knoebel's life and career, from his family's dramatic exodus from post-war Communist East Germany to the West, to his education at the Werkundschule in Darmstadt where he learned from the legendary 'preliminary class' formulated by Mohly-Nagy at the Bauhaus some 40 years earlier, to his final studies at the legendary Kunstakademie in Dusseldorf. Learn how his art production has retained remarkable consistency, from his very first major work, 1968's Raum 19, made under the mentorship of Joseph Beuys, to today's serial bodies of work that occupy themselves with the very same concerns of material, line, form and colour. Knoebel has influenced several generations of artists in the manner he has developed (and lived up to) these highly personal and literal notions of 'minimalism'. Now one of the senior statesmen amongst the art world's non-objective practitioners, his sheer artistic integrity and consistency enables us to trace his lineage all the way back to the founding antecedents of Mandarin and Malevich.
Further details of this episode focus on how his work has both captivated the art market and cemented his place in art history. We explore the history and trajectory of his place in today's behemoth art market, sampling a large data set to make a case for an altogether different kind of consistency: that of market value and growth over a sustained period of time. Once again, The Collector's Edge enables listeners to gain insights into Knoebel's enduring legacy and the market dynamics that continue to elevate the significance of his contributions to 20th-century abstract art.
Episode Artwork: Imi Knoebel, Anima Mundi 31-5, 2023, Acrylic on Aluminum, In 5 parts (Each: 37 x 29 x 5.8cm), (Detail). Image courtesy, Nordic Art Partners, ©Imi Knoebel
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Episode Transcript
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Jeppe Curth (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge from Nordic
Art Partners.
In this episode, we willexplore the work and career of
Imi Neubel, a German artistknown for his unique forms and
colors.
With me today is, as usual, ourarts expert, niklas Robinson,
and I'm your host, eppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:21):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling here at Christie's 400million dollars is the bid and
the piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:42):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:02):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:27):
Hi, Nick, good morning, .
How are you doing?
Very well, thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good.
It's been a long time since welast sat down and spoke about an
artist.
Nicholas Robinson (01:38):
True, We've been traveling and going to some
art fairs and so on and soforth.
So back in the office I almostsaid back in the studio, but
obviously our office is ourstudio.
Jeppe Curth (01:51):
Yeah, and it's not because we don't have artists to
talk about, we're justsometimes busy.
Yes, that's how it is.
But, as I just mentioned in theintro, we're going to talk
about Immigreable today.
Yes, we are.
Can you, as always, give us alittle tour back in his early
days and how he became an artist?
Nicholas Robinson (02:10):
uh, sure, I think probably we'll.
We should do what, what weusually do, and that's just give
a bit of biographical context.
To start with.
Yes, please, before we talkabout his education and his work
, etc.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Um, and he was born in 1940, uhin Dessau, uh, dessau being
notable as the site of theoriginal Bauhaus, founded in
(02:33):
1918.
Um, so of course that makes him84 years old.
Um.
For all you mathematicsaficionados, um in uh.
When he was five years old, hewas in Dresden, um at the
towards the culmination of thesecond world war, uh, where he
witnessed the fire bombing ofthe um of the city.
(02:57):
Um and uh a few years later, in1950, um his, his, he.
He was one of five children intotal, and at the end of the war
his father abandoned them.
So his mother raising fivechildren, after five years of
(03:17):
the sort of post-war Sovietoccupation, she started to
become extremely concerned as towhat life under a communist
regime would look like, um, andso they fled.
They fled to west germany, um,and he remembers uh running
(03:38):
through the fields in the deadof night with the sound of the
border guard dogs sort ofbarking at their heels, as he
describes it.
So, anyway, he settled in theWest and then, I guess at some
point during his childhood, hisformative years, he decided that
(04:00):
he wanted to become an artist.
Should we talk about what hiswork is like?
Should we talk about his?
I guess we should talk abouthis education, maybe.
Jeppe Curth (04:07):
Yeah, I think if you could tell us a bit about
his art education and whatformative influence he has on
the work we know from him, maybealso a little bit about the
Bauhaus.
Nicholas Robinson (04:18):
Okay, okay, that's fair enough.
I mean, of course he was notattending the Bauhaus, but it's
kind of pertinent, or thephilosophies around the Bauhaus
become pertinent when we thinkof the things that he was taught
at art school.
But I guess, just to summarizehis work generally, he's always
been very dedicated to a purelynon-representational form of art
(04:42):
, purely non-representationalform of art.
He's one of these artists who'sbeen very resolute in his
abstraction concerning form,which in his case is articulated
predominantly by line, by color, but also by material, and
these are themes that he hasexperimented with throughout his
working life in series.
(05:02):
He's always aimed to uncoverthe basic material elements of
art and had been inspired byespecially the work of Mondrian
Malevich, both of whom wereinnovators and proponents of the
very first highly formaltheories of abstraction in the
early 20th century, moretheories of abstraction in the
(05:30):
early 20th century.
So anyway, in 1962, he attendedthe Werkundschule in Darmstadt,
and the key factor here in hiseducation was the course which
was very closely based on thewhat was called the preliminary
course at the Bauhaus, and thiswas formulated by two particular
professors there, one of whomwas Johannes Itten and the other
was Laszlo Moholy-Nagy.
(05:50):
Now, Itten had variousphilosophies surrounding color
and became a bit of a sort of amystical figure.
So he was very interested inthe spiritual properties of
color and so on and so forth.
But in 1922, I believe he wasreplaced by Moholy-Nagy who had
a much more well, who had a muchmore um sort of constructivist
(06:13):
leaning uh towards color andcomposition.
Um, anyway, the foundationcourse uh, the, the preliminary
course, as formulated by Ittenand refined by Moholy-Nagy,
looked at various theories aboutcolor and looked at contrast
(06:35):
amongst color, by hue, by value,by temperature, by saturation.
So they had very specificintellectual theories on
composition and painting andthis highly didactic approach.
Um was the course essentiallythat knobel was taught in
darmstadt.
So he had this founding uh inessentially in in bauhaus way of
(07:00):
thinking about color andcomposition.
So you can trace his educationin this direct lineage.
After this he attended theKunstakademie in Düsseldorf and
this was a little bitinteresting because the teacher
(07:20):
at the Kunstakademie inDüsseldorf was Joseph Beuys and
Joseph Beuys was sort of thismonumental figure in German
post-war art and the way thatKnobel tells it.
He had to persuade Beuys toenroll him in the course.
He had a very close friendKnobel um called uh called reina
(07:45):
gisa um, and they were thissort of two peas in a pod kind
of uh friends.
They called themselves immy andimmy, which was a little bit of
a way that they kind of brandedthemselves or identified
themselves.
Um, and the way they describedit, uh, the way he describes
he's he.
He said that he saw in anewspaper that Boyce had been
(08:06):
attacked, um, at an art opening.
So he read this uh article inthe newspaper, saw the
photograph of the bloodied noseof this artist and was very
fascinated by what had promptedpeople to react so strongly to
his work, to the extent thatthey attacked him.
So he sort of they feltcompelled that they had to sort
(08:29):
of help this man, Although ofcourse what that would mean to
them is unclear.
But so they packed their bags,they hitched hike to Dusseldorf
and they managed to get anaudience somehow with Joseph
Beuys and the way that Knoebeltells it.
He says we had absolutely notalent, but we mustered the
courage to approach him.
(08:50):
When there's two of you youonly need half the courage.
And we told him we didn't wantto show our art, we just wanted
him to give us a room of our own.
He was both taken aback andsold on our cheekiness.
So, basically, Boyce gave thema place to work.
He gave them a room called Raum19, room 19, next door to his
(09:12):
own classroom, in room 20.
He basically gave them a yearto prove themselves.
He said here you go, here's aspace in which to work.
Justify why you should still behere in a year's time, and you
have all this time to formulatesomething to do that would
enable you to deserve to stayhere.
So the first thing that Knoebeldid, or the first major body of
(09:34):
work that he formulated althoughI guess before we talk about
his actual work, we should talkabout his, maybe a little bit
about his struggle to become anartist.
I think that a lot of artists,probably when they're making
very especially, very rigidlyreductive abstract works, it's
(09:59):
very difficult to find a way tomap out new territory.
To find a way to map out newterritory, You're dealing with
very sort of pared back means ofmaking a painting.
So it's a little bit difficultto know where you can take the
medium.
And Knovel was no different.
Initially he was a littletortured by the sense that he
(10:20):
could not find a way to dosomething that had not already
been done.
He noted that Klein had hismonochromes and his
international Klein blue.
He noted that Fontana hadmapped out the slashes as a way
of, you know, interrogating thepictorial surface, and he felt
(10:41):
you know what's left.
If you want to do something tostay alive, you have to think of
something at least as radical.
And he wasn't sure what thatmight look like for him.
And he always but then healways would refer to his
discovery of Malevich's BlackSquare of 1915 as a very seminal
(11:02):
moment in his own understandingof what art could be.
And he always said thatconsidering the painting gave
him an overwhelming feeling thatI could start at nothing.
So when he made his first bodyof work, his first significant
piece, this is what he did.
(11:23):
So Room 19 is the name given tothis piece of work that he
formulated during this 12 monthsof his studenthood in
Dusseldorf, and this piececonsists of 77 elements of wood
and masonite.
So think of all of the thingsthat look like.
(11:46):
They are the sort of rawmaterials of a painting
Stretchers, frames, variousplanar support surfaces.
So Knoebel is assembling thesethings, reducing the core
elements of painting to its veryessence, distilling it into its
basic constituent components ofform, material surface and the
(12:10):
way they coexist in space.
But the interesting thing isthat no actual paint is part of
this work.
So because you have this sortof very obvious physicality to
these elements, he's bringingpainting very close to the
phenomenology of sculpture.
And the interesting thing aboutthis group of paintings which of
(12:32):
course are not really paintingsis that there's no fixed set of
relationships that binds thesecomponents, since room 19 can be
arranged in any kind ofvariation, any kind of
permutation, stacked together,arranged so it can be composed
to sort of fill a certainspecific space, composed within
(12:52):
that space, so to speak, or itcan be densely compacted as if
it were simply stored awaysomewhere.
So it's sort of maybe anautobiographic reference to an
art student's basic materials,but as an installation it's
really a conceptual exercise inreduction, pairing the work of
art back to its most basicphysical elements.
(13:14):
So this is his attitude towardsyou.
Know how can I make a painting?
That is the very essence of apainting and a way of making
something, maybe, that had notbeen made before.
Jeppe Curth (13:28):
Can you say that Knobel's work are often seen as
a dialogue between a paintingand a sculpture?
Nicholas Robinson (13:36):
Yes, they have a very specific sort of
physical property, partly due tohis interest in materials.
Jeppe Curth (13:43):
Could you try?
Nicholas Robinson (13:44):
to describe how they could look like in
terms of yeah, of course, I meananother group of works that he
made in his early days.
Between 1966, which of coursepredates his studies in
Dusseldorf and 1973, he made250,000 A4 drawings, all
executed in pencil, with variousvertical horizontal lines on
(14:08):
them, and this was exhibited insix high, narrow steel cupboards
, all of which are sealed andonly accessible on demand.
So here you have abstract workthat also has a sort of a
performative element in itsphysicality.
It functions as sculpture, itfunctions as installation and it
functions as also a highlyconceptual exercise.
Um, but continuing his, his,his very key concept, concept of
(14:34):
dematerializing the medium ofpainting.
Um, in 1968, uh, knirble was theof Beuys' students to
incorporate photography in hiswork.
So he started using a slideprojector and he would take the
slides and he would just havethese empty slides, whatever the
(14:54):
acetate or acrylic or whateverthe little plastic square is,
and he would put these slides inthe projector and he would
create squares of light thatwere essentially the empty slide
projected onto a wall.
So this is, of course, putting acomposition on a wall which of
course is akin to a painting,but obviously there's this
(15:16):
conceptual, this kind ofsculptural, performative element
to it too, sculptural,performative element to it too.
These later evolved into slidesthat were covered in copy ink,
onto which he carved veryprecise vertical horizontal
lines which were then castthroughout the room.
And this, this very, veryreductive form of exploring form
(15:37):
, line and form, evolved intohis black and white paintings,
and these were very simplepaintings consisting of black
and white abstract works,essentially, that play with
various combinations ofrectangular forms on their
surface.
So extremely simple andextremely pared back.
(15:57):
But our understanding ofKnoebel, of course and of course
this also relates back to thefirst course that he was taught,
the Bauhaus course on colortheory, etc.
We associate his work todaywith very sophisticated
explorations of color right, yes, especially the Anima Mundi
(16:22):
works.
Jeppe Curth (16:23):
But these works you just mentioned, are they
essential for understanding hisartistic vision, or is there
maybe also other group of worksthat's important?
Nicholas Robinson (16:35):
perhaps what we more readily associate with
his work today and you mentionedthe Anima Mundi works which are
, you know, a very kind ofsophisticated essay that perhaps
represents a culmination of allof these different concerns and
considerations that heconsiders relevant to the
(16:57):
practice, to the discipline ofpainting.
But before he made those, wehave to discover his, we have to
understand his discovery andhis use of colour.
Now, he was part of a greatgeneration of German artists
that all kind of came uptogether exploring painting in
(17:18):
somewhat similar, of course alsodifferent ways, similar, of
course, also different ways.
But in 1977, he experienced asignificant trauma with the
death of his very close friend,blinky Palermo.
And after Blinky died he beganto systematically experiment
with colour and he made a verykey work in response to Blinky's
(17:42):
death.
Now Palermo had become known asquite a sophisticated colorist.
His paintings most often are,or his work is most often noted
for these paintings that consistof these three horizontal bands
of color that have some kind ofrelation to each other.
So there's a certain harmony inthem.
(18:03):
So there's a certain harmony inthem, but there's also a
certain awkwardness in the waythese colors, these tones relate
to each other, very sort ofhard edged, flat passages of
color.
So they really just kind oflook like flags, you might say,
and not like paintings at all.
But Palermo had been consideredquite a sophisticated colourist.
(18:24):
So Knoebel's response to thissort of highly significant
moment, he sort of turned aprofound personal loss into a
kind of artistic legacy fromPalermo to him.
And so this body of work thathe made in response to Palermo's
(18:46):
death 24 Colors for Blinkyconsists of 24 irregular sort of
polygon shapes, funny kind ofcutouts that defy a particular
description or categorization,each with a solid color on the
surface, and and, and this, this, this work, only really
(19:07):
functions if you kind of standin the middle and consider all
of these shapes and colors.
Um, resonating together becomesa very sort of experiential way
to perceive color and form.
This is now part of thepermanent collection at dear
beacon so imi is 84 years oldtoday.
Jeppe Curth (19:36):
Yeah, um, and you just walked us through many of
the different series he madethrough his whole career.
Which one do you?
Nicholas Robinson (19:42):
prefer.
Well, I think that for me, thewell.
I guess we I suppose we haven'tgotten to that point yet in our
talk For me, I think that hisessays in colour are my personal
favourites and what I thinkprobably will end up being his
most significant legacy I meanthe early historic works will
(20:04):
always be that probably will endup being his most significant
legacy.
I mean the early historic workswill always be that, just
because of their, you know thesignificance of their importance
to the development of his work.
But I think his work of thelast you know, 20, 30 years is
more significant because itincorporates all of these
elements in a more rounded way.
And I think I mean we can'toverstate the importance of
(20:27):
color to Knoebel.
I mean, today he's got morethan 700 color cards arranged in
his studio.
All of them are highly orderedon these sort of hooks in his
studio, each one on a hookadjacent to the next one, very,
you know, closely related tonesin this spectrum, looking like
(20:47):
the keys on some kind of crazymonumental xylophone.
So so so the nuance of colorand the relationship of tones to
other tones is something thathe obviously thinks about
constantly, and since the 1990swhen he has begun to paint on
(21:08):
aluminium.
I think that the combination ofthis sort of very industrial
material surface support withthe painting that he makes on
top to me make the mostinteresting works, and for me
the works that he's made, a lotof these aluminium works from
the nineties, or that he startedin the nineties.
He still makes them today.
(21:29):
Um, they have a sort of aanthropomorphic or biomorphic
shape to them.
So they're, they're kind of anirregular, um, irregular form,
um.
And then the surface is painted, often in a in a monochrome,
but sometimes with expressivegestural elements in slightly
(21:50):
related or contrasting tones too, um, so you get quite a lot of
variations of the same color incomplimentary shades or tones,
and the these, these marks areapplied in this very sort of
feathered brushy way which has alot of expression in it, um.
So so you have the shapedground that superficially is
(22:11):
reminiscent of minimalist worksby americans such as eltwith
kelly or frank steller, um, butthe surface differs very
markedly in that knurbel's worksmuch more clearly retain the
hand of the artist in thegestural way the paint is
applied to the surface.
So these paintings become aboutthe material and the surface
(22:33):
support, but also very muchabout the configurations of
brushstrokes on the surfacewhich are incredibly subtle but
also still quite expressive andquite visceral.
So I think that these are avery significant body of work
that Knoebel has made.
And then another series that Ithink is highly significant and
(22:57):
I think probably the marketgenerally agrees, are the Anima
Mundi works.
Probably the market generallyagrees are the Anima Mundi works
.
Now, anima Mundi, very looselytranslated, means, or very
literally translated, means,soul of the world.
But for Knoebel I think we caninfer that this is a certain
(23:18):
kind of artistic soul of theworld and the very, you know,
the very sort of pure responseto form and colour and the way
these two elements sort ofinteract with each other.
Um, and each of these AnimaMundi works, very simple,
consists of a rectangularaluminum panel and each one has
a sort of a strip on the topfunctioning as a framing device
(23:40):
around the central rectangle,and each of these panels is
between sort of 35 and 40centimetres tall.
And these works are configuredin groups of one, two, three,
(24:01):
four and five panels and theseare hung in a row, horizontal
row, on the wall so that thesevarious panels relate to their
siblings in any given group.
And a few minutes ago I spokeabout the dimensions of these
individual panels being between,I think, 35 and 40 centimeters,
(24:22):
the reason that there's a smallrange between them with any
individual group of Anima Mundiworks.
So if it's a three-panel workor a two-panel work or a
five-panel work, each of thosepanels within any given work is
the same, are the same size, butthe dimensions vary very
(24:43):
slightly from one group toanother group, and this is so
that none of the individualpanels could ever be sort of
inadvertently mistaken orswitched out for any other that
are part of any specific group.
Knobel has very specificallycomposed the groupings, made
each panel very rigorouslyrelate to the others in its
(25:08):
group and if you have thesesmall variations in size from
one Anima Mundi group to another, then that of course negates
the possibility of differentpanels being erroneously hung
together, forming a group thatwas not intended to be a group.
And what you have?
You have these sort of, you knowthe repetition of the geometric
(25:30):
constructions and of course,the more panels you have, the
more permutations in you can seein the different colors that he
deploys in all of the differentcompositional elements on any
given panel and across all thepanels.
So the interesting thing aboutthem, like with the 24 colors
(25:53):
for Blinky, is that you stand infront of these and also, I
should say, the solid colorsthat are painted on these
elements of the Anima Mundipanels.
They are also quite, they'requite loosely painted.
I mean, when you stand backfrom them, they appear to be a
very solid color, but when youscrutinize them more closely you
(26:14):
can see a lot of nuance,handwork in the way the
brushwork is on the surface.
So you get this, this, thisharmony, and you get this
dissonance between the, the, thecolors, and then you get this
sort of strange sensation that'salmost a vibration, and this is
very much what he intends orintended for the viewer to
(26:36):
perceive can you mention thegarage representing a gnooble
and maybe also some mages havehigh demand of his works than
others.
Yes, I think that I mean I don't.
I would say that maybe a way toput it might be that he's still
quite a European artist.
I would say his main galleriescertainly are in Europe, and we
(27:03):
can get to why that is in asecond.
Perhaps he has three galleries.
I mean, he has many galleriesthat have shown his work, that
do continue to show his work,but I would say three core
galleries that form the bedrockof his representation, and they
would be in no particular order.
They would be Thaddeus, ropacvon Barter and White Cube.
(27:28):
White Cube, predominantly inLondon, ropac, founded in
Salzburg but also in London, butI suppose quite noted for their
spaces in Paris.
And then Vombarta is a verylongstanding gallery with an
impeccable pedigree, based outof Basel, also with an offshoot
(27:53):
actually here in Copenhagen.
And these three galleries have,you know, steadfastly
represented Knovel's work forquite some time and I guess have
been been the ones that youknow invariably take his work to
most of the fairs and and andhave you know, hosted most of
(28:14):
the important exhibitions in thelast 20-30 years between them.
And then I, and then I thinkthat I think that, um, there's
probably a lack of a majorgallery in New York, and I think
this is one of the things thatis sort of interesting to us,
because, you know, we, we, webuy the work because we, we
(28:37):
think it's, you know,extraordinarily important and
influential work of its type.
But we also feel that it isunder appreciated by the market
at large.
And I think if he had a majorNew York gallery pushing the
work in the same way that theseEuropean galleries had done,
(29:00):
then I would say that his statuson the secondary market perhaps
would be, and on the auctionblock would be, higher than it
is now.
You know what his auctionrecord is.
Jeppe Curth (29:13):
Yeah, of course you do.
Yeah, it's $461,000.
Yeah, for a two and a halfmeter, 170.
Nicholas Robinson (29:19):
Yeah, and that painting is a 80s painting.
I think A late 80s paintingmaybe.
Jeppe Curth (29:26):
It was the work.
Well, the auction record was in2016.
Nicholas Robinson (29:29):
Yeah, but the painting that.
Jeppe Curth (29:30):
It is from 1989.
Nicholas Robinson (29:32):
Yeah, okay, yeah, that's what I thought.
Grace Kelly, yes, exactly, andGrace Kelly is.
It looks like a sort of aprecursor to Anima Mundi.
Jeppe Curth (29:43):
Yes, it is, yeah, indeed, yeah, look very much
alike, yeah, um.
Nicholas Robinson (29:47):
So it has the same reductive elements and the
same relationship, internalrelationship, between the form
and the color components of thework, um.
But to go back to his auctionrecord 461 000.
Now, this is a lot of money byany standards, but when you look
at his sort of peers,especially the artist that
(30:11):
perhaps could be considered tohave extremely parallel careers
to him and are no more or noless important than Knirble,
important than than um Knirbal,but Gunther Ferg um is an artist
who has very similar parallelsin terms of how the uh, in terms
of what the consensus isregarding his importance, his
(30:33):
achievements, et cetera.
Certainly, his place in in inmuseums, uh, in institutions is
is very similar, uh.
But Ferg's auction record is$1.7 million and he shows with
Hauser and Wirth, and so Iimagine that there are many
paintings, significant historicpaintings, that they have sold
that are probably significantlyin excess of this $1.7 million.
(30:57):
But Ferg is dead and, as isoften the case when these sort
of elder statesmen and womenartists pass on um, there's a
sort of a reappraisal of theircontribution and a fresh
understanding about what they'veachieved and a spike of
interest um, that tends to driveuh a better understanding of
(31:19):
their value, which of course youknow means many things inherent
value, monetary value but thewhen the inherent value sort of
appreciation goes up, then itthen inevitably the market
prices go goes up too, um, uh.
So, anyway, ferg, his priceshave gone up a lot posthumously,
um, but Blinky Palermo, whodied in 1977, and so there's
(31:43):
been a long time between thenand now, which has allowed a
very powerful mythology legendto develop around him and his
work and his auction record ismore than $6 million.
So you know there's no realreason why and Noble's prices
(32:07):
are the way they are, but wefeel like we can identify
various sort of capriciousreasons in the market as to why
that's the case.
But this obviously suggeststhat this won't endure forever
and that buying his workprobably is a good value
proposition to do today.
Jeppe Curth (32:26):
As a result of this , yeah, makes sense to do today
as a result of this.
Yeah, makes sense.
For this episode, I calculatedthe annual growth rate from
Immigrant Nobles artworks bycomparing price per square
centimetres from early sales onauctions 32 years ago, which was
the first sales, to recent ones.
Nicholas Robinson (32:44):
Okay, so all auction sales over 32 years.
Jeppe Curth (32:46):
Yes, so it's secondary market, not primary
market, and so therefore, itwill be publicly available.
Auction records yes, and usingthis I estimated a average
annual increase on his prices orgrowth, you can say on 4.8
percent over time, showing thatnoble's value has like growing
steadily in the art market.
This is secondary yeah workprices or secondary market right
(33:09):
.
And also the auction result wasin 2016,.
So eight years ago.
What does this tell us abouthis growth?
But also that eight years agohe has his auction record and
what does that tell us comparedto primary prices?
Nicholas Robinson (33:24):
Well, okay, so this methodology of yours
goes back to the first availableauction record 32 years ago.
Yes, and it shows 4.8% growthper year.
Yes, so what is that total sortof growth over the time span?
Jeppe Curth (33:41):
That is 367%.
Okay, so getting on to 400%.
Nicholas Robinson (33:46):
Well, of course, you know we have
inflation, so the price and thevalues of things goes up
inevitably over time.
But we obviously can see,therefore, that his, his
appreciation within the markethas fantastic longevity and has
been certainly nothing otherthan completely stable, showing,
(34:09):
you know, solid, you knowgrowth over that time.
But his primary market prices,I mean his primary market prices
, vary from, you know, sort of50,000 euros or so for a small
panel, these biomorphic worksthat I described, with the
painterly surface.
You can get one that's maybesort of 40, 50 centimeters, um,
(34:32):
for around that price, maybe60,000 euros, Um, and then they
go up to you know, 300,000 orthereabouts for the very large
ones, two and a half odd meterstall, Um, the Anima Mundis are
obviously varying in pricedepending on how many panels are
(34:52):
in any given constellation, Um,so one panel maybe is uh, sort
of you know 50,000, 45,000 euros.
You know there's a small economyof scale for two, which is 75,
80, 000 euros, three, etc.
Etc.
Um, I've seen five panel animamundis, which are actually the
(35:16):
rarest type but of course themost sophisticated type because
of the variation that you get.
You know you get a lot ofpainting in across these five
panels and you get a very highlyelucidated experience of
everything that Nourbel istrying to achieve and trying to
communicate.
So I've seen five panel worksfor as much as 250, 260,000
(35:41):
euros, but probably on theprimary market, you know they're
still going to be under 200,000.
So you know, obviously, theprimary market prices and the
secondary market prices.
There's not a massivediscrepancy between them, but
there are clear signs thatpeople are trying to sort of
(36:02):
future-proof the prices.
You know they're aware thathe's very old, they're aware
that he doesn't make very manyAnnamundi works anymore.
They're aware that maybethere's very many fewer five
panel, four panel works than twoand three whatever.
So you know there's relativescarcity and that's going to
drive demand and price inrelation to that sort of highly
(36:26):
inelastic supply.
So, yeah, people understandsupply.
So, so, yeah, people understandof course as well that they're
that Knoebel's work is aboutcolor and some of the color
harmonies that you get withinthese paintings are more
attractive and more melodic thanothers, than others.
(36:54):
Um, sometimes, when he's lookingto to try and explore
dissonance between the colors sothat you have what feels, um,
rather inharmonious or perhaps acertain awkward juxtaposition
between the tones, it doesn'tfeel as attractive or as obvious
.
Um, now this is.
This is clearly part of hisintentionality for the work, but
(37:15):
you know, people often prizeprettier things over more
uncomfortable things.
And you know, ones that areovertly pretty, with a a nice
range of very harmonious colours, will probably perform better
than one that has almost nocolour or that has very dark or
(37:35):
muddy colours.
Jeppe Curth (37:42):
So how important would you say that Imi Gnubel is
when we're speaking art history?
Did he find his place already?
Nicholas Robinson (37:52):
Of course, without question.
I mean you, you look at the,you, you can trace this, this
lineage of, of, of color theory,all the way through from the
early part of the the 20thcentury.
Of course you've got thesetitans mondrian, malevich, and
then you've got the bauhaus um,which the importance of the
(38:13):
bauhaus, in my view, can't beoverstated just because of the,
the way that it formed thewellspring for so many other
kinds of things to come from itin the 20th century.
And you know, you can traceknobel directly through this um,
through the course that hetaught.
(38:34):
You know, I think when you lookat conceptual painters and
abstract painters coming out ofGermany in the middle of the
20th century, you can't reallylook past.
You know Gerhard Richter as thegreatest of them all.
But if you look at thegeneration, that is, you know
the same age, essentially thatkind of came out of that.
Then you know the same age,essentially that kind of came
out of that.
Then you know, you look at Fergand Palermo and Knobel as the
(38:57):
three great artists.
And I think that you can'treally, you know you can't
really create too much of adistinction between any of those
three as one being of greaterrepute or achievement than
another.
So, you know, you have to saythat Knoebel is an extremely
seminal abstract painter of thisperiod who's still, you know,
(39:22):
working in a very high leveltoday.
So, yes, he's found his placeand he's, you know, performed,
you know, an immeasurablecontribution to abstract
painting in the 20th century.
Jeppe Curth (39:37):
For listeners who want to delve more into
McNeville's works.
Where should they start andwhat should they look for?
Special periods, special works.
Nicholas Robinson (39:49):
Well, I think you know there's clear bodies
of work that Knoebel has made.
I mean, we mentioned that heworks serially, so I think just
understanding these main bodiesof work is a good way to get an
overview of what his objectivesare.
(40:13):
Objectives are, um, if you lookat the, the the deer website, um
, they have really interestingand fantastic holdings of
historic works and a reallyreally nice descriptions that
sort of summarize what each oneis is about.
That's a really good way to geta fundamental understanding of
of of Knoebel's work.
Um, so I would recommend thatas a good source of research.
And then I think, if you lookat the, the gallery websites I
(40:37):
always enjoy ropex website, justbecause they have a really nice
way of of of showing thechronological sequence of
exhibitions so you can kind ofclick into each show in sequence
, see how one body of workevolves out of a preceding one.
And then you've you've gotpress releases that pertain to
(40:57):
each each show and often videocontent where scholars and the
artist indeed also engaged inconversation talking about the
work.
So that's a really nice way ofkind of consuming information
about his work in a somewhatsort of entertaining content
format.
And then von Barter and WhiteCube too, have got really good
(41:21):
overviews on him and hispractice.
Jeppe Curth (41:26):
Great, nick.
Thanks once again for pickingup brain.
Do you think we missed anything?
Anything to add?
Nicholas Robinson (41:32):
I don't.
I mean listen, we could talkabout his work all day.
He's been working for more than50 years, so it'd be easy to
get more of a deep dive.
But I think as an overview, asa way of summarizing, you know
what he's about and what he'sdone and how he's perceived by
the market.
Jeppe Curth (41:51):
I think, yeah, we've ticked.
We've ticked most of the boxestoday.
Good, thank you.
Well, that's it for us yeah, Iguess it is, and then let's hope
there will be a listener forthe next episode.
Yeah, okay, good, thank you bye.
If you have any questions orany requests, you are more than
welcome to write to us at infoat nordicartpartnerscom, and we
will do what we can to help you.
(42:11):
Thanks for listening and wehope to have you back for our
next episode.
Goodbye.
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge from Nordic
Art Partners.
In this episode, we willexplore the work and career of
Imi Neubel, a German artistknown for his unique forms and
colors.
With me today is, as usual, ourarts expert, niklas Robinson,
and I'm your host, eppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:21):
It is with Alex Rotter, at 400 million
Selling here at Christie's 400million dollars is the bid and
the piece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:42):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:02):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be considered,thoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:27):
Hi, Nick, good morning, .
How are you doing?
Very well, thank you you.
Yeah, I'm good.
It's been a long time since welast sat down and spoke about an
artist.
Nicholas Robinson (01:38):
True, We've been traveling and going to some
art fairs and so on and soforth.
So back in the office I almostsaid back in the studio, but
obviously our office is ourstudio.
Jeppe Curth (01:51):
Yeah, and it's not because we don't have artists to
talk about, we're justsometimes busy.
Yes, that's how it is.
But, as I just mentioned in theintro, we're going to talk
about Immigreable today.
Yes, we are.
Can you, as always, give us alittle tour back in his early
days and how he became an artist?
Nicholas Robinson (02:10):
uh, sure, I think probably we'll.
We should do what, what weusually do, and that's just give
a bit of biographical context.
To start with.
Yes, please, before we talkabout his education and his work
, etc.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Um, and he was born in 1940, uhin Dessau, uh, dessau being
notable as the site of theoriginal Bauhaus, founded in
(02:33):
1918.
Um, so of course that makes him84 years old.
Um.
For all you mathematicsaficionados, um in uh.
When he was five years old, hewas in Dresden, um at the
towards the culmination of thesecond world war, uh, where he
witnessed the fire bombing ofthe um of the city.
(02:57):
Um and uh a few years later, in1950, um his, his, he.
He was one of five children intotal, and at the end of the war
his father abandoned them.
So his mother raising fivechildren, after five years of
(03:17):
the sort of post-war Sovietoccupation, she started to
become extremely concerned as towhat life under a communist
regime would look like, um, andso they fled.
They fled to west germany, um,and he remembers uh running
(03:38):
through the fields in the deadof night with the sound of the
border guard dogs sort ofbarking at their heels, as he
describes it.
So, anyway, he settled in theWest and then, I guess at some
point during his childhood, hisformative years, he decided that
(04:00):
he wanted to become an artist.
Should we talk about what hiswork is like?
Should we talk about his?
I guess we should talk abouthis education, maybe.
Jeppe Curth (04:07):
Yeah, I think if you could tell us a bit about
his art education and whatformative influence he has on
the work we know from him, maybealso a little bit about the
Bauhaus.
Nicholas Robinson (04:18):
Okay, okay, that's fair enough.
I mean, of course he was notattending the Bauhaus, but it's
kind of pertinent, or thephilosophies around the Bauhaus
become pertinent when we thinkof the things that he was taught
at art school.
But I guess, just to summarizehis work generally, he's always
been very dedicated to a purelynon-representational form of art
(04:42):
, purely non-representationalform of art.
He's one of these artists who'sbeen very resolute in his
abstraction concerning form,which in his case is articulated
predominantly by line, by color, but also by material, and
these are themes that he hasexperimented with throughout his
working life in series.
(05:02):
He's always aimed to uncoverthe basic material elements of
art and had been inspired byespecially the work of Mondrian
Malevich, both of whom wereinnovators and proponents of the
very first highly formaltheories of abstraction in the
early 20th century, moretheories of abstraction in the
(05:30):
early 20th century.
So anyway, in 1962, he attendedthe Werkundschule in Darmstadt,
and the key factor here in hiseducation was the course which
was very closely based on thewhat was called the preliminary
course at the Bauhaus, and thiswas formulated by two particular
professors there, one of whomwas Johannes Itten and the other
was Laszlo Moholy-Nagy.
(05:50):
Now, Itten had variousphilosophies surrounding color
and became a bit of a sort of amystical figure.
So he was very interested inthe spiritual properties of
color and so on and so forth.
But in 1922, I believe he wasreplaced by Moholy-Nagy who had
a much more well, who had a muchmore um sort of constructivist
(06:13):
leaning uh towards color andcomposition.
Um, anyway, the foundationcourse uh, the, the preliminary
course, as formulated by Ittenand refined by Moholy-Nagy,
looked at various theories aboutcolor and looked at contrast
(06:35):
amongst color, by hue, by value,by temperature, by saturation.
So they had very specificintellectual theories on
composition and painting andthis highly didactic approach.
Um was the course essentiallythat knobel was taught in
darmstadt.
So he had this founding uh inessentially in in bauhaus way of
(07:00):
thinking about color andcomposition.
So you can trace his educationin this direct lineage.
After this he attended theKunstakademie in Düsseldorf and
this was a little bitinteresting because the teacher
(07:20):
at the Kunstakademie inDüsseldorf was Joseph Beuys and
Joseph Beuys was sort of thismonumental figure in German
post-war art and the way thatKnobel tells it.
He had to persuade Beuys toenroll him in the course.
He had a very close friendKnobel um called uh called reina
(07:45):
gisa um, and they were thissort of two peas in a pod kind
of uh friends.
They called themselves immy andimmy, which was a little bit of
a way that they kind of brandedthemselves or identified
themselves.
Um, and the way they describedit, uh, the way he describes
he's he.
He said that he saw in anewspaper that Boyce had been
(08:06):
attacked, um, at an art opening.
So he read this uh article inthe newspaper, saw the
photograph of the bloodied noseof this artist and was very
fascinated by what had promptedpeople to react so strongly to
his work, to the extent thatthey attacked him.
So he sort of they feltcompelled that they had to sort
(08:29):
of help this man, Although ofcourse what that would mean to
them is unclear.
But so they packed their bags,they hitched hike to Dusseldorf
and they managed to get anaudience somehow with Joseph
Beuys and the way that Knoebeltells it.
He says we had absolutely notalent, but we mustered the
courage to approach him.
(08:50):
When there's two of you youonly need half the courage.
And we told him we didn't wantto show our art, we just wanted
him to give us a room of our own.
He was both taken aback andsold on our cheekiness.
So, basically, Boyce gave thema place to work.
He gave them a room called Raum19, room 19, next door to his
(09:12):
own classroom, in room 20.
He basically gave them a yearto prove themselves.
He said here you go, here's aspace in which to work.
Justify why you should still behere in a year's time, and you
have all this time to formulatesomething to do that would
enable you to deserve to stayhere.
So the first thing that Knoebeldid, or the first major body of
(09:34):
work that he formulated althoughI guess before we talk about
his actual work, we should talkabout his, maybe a little bit
about his struggle to become anartist.
I think that a lot of artists,probably when they're making
very especially, very rigidlyreductive abstract works, it's
(09:59):
very difficult to find a way tomap out new territory.
To find a way to map out newterritory, You're dealing with
very sort of pared back means ofmaking a painting.
So it's a little bit difficultto know where you can take the
medium.
And Knovel was no different.
Initially he was a littletortured by the sense that he
(10:20):
could not find a way to dosomething that had not already
been done.
He noted that Klein had hismonochromes and his
international Klein blue.
He noted that Fontana hadmapped out the slashes as a way
of, you know, interrogating thepictorial surface, and he felt
(10:41):
you know what's left.
If you want to do something tostay alive, you have to think of
something at least as radical.
And he wasn't sure what thatmight look like for him.
And he always but then healways would refer to his
discovery of Malevich's BlackSquare of 1915 as a very seminal
(11:02):
moment in his own understandingof what art could be.
And he always said thatconsidering the painting gave
him an overwhelming feeling thatI could start at nothing.
So when he made his first bodyof work, his first significant
piece, this is what he did.
(11:23):
So Room 19 is the name given tothis piece of work that he
formulated during this 12 monthsof his studenthood in
Dusseldorf, and this piececonsists of 77 elements of wood
and masonite.
So think of all of the thingsthat look like.
(11:46):
They are the sort of rawmaterials of a painting
Stretchers, frames, variousplanar support surfaces.
So Knoebel is assembling thesethings, reducing the core
elements of painting to its veryessence, distilling it into its
basic constituent components ofform, material surface and the
(12:10):
way they coexist in space.
But the interesting thing isthat no actual paint is part of
this work.
So because you have this sortof very obvious physicality to
these elements, he's bringingpainting very close to the
phenomenology of sculpture.
And the interesting thing aboutthis group of paintings which of
(12:32):
course are not really paintingsis that there's no fixed set of
relationships that binds thesecomponents, since room 19 can be
arranged in any kind ofvariation, any kind of
permutation, stacked together,arranged so it can be composed
to sort of fill a certainspecific space, composed within
(12:52):
that space, so to speak, or itcan be densely compacted as if
it were simply stored awaysomewhere.
So it's sort of maybe anautobiographic reference to an
art student's basic materials,but as an installation it's
really a conceptual exercise inreduction, pairing the work of
art back to its most basicphysical elements.
(13:14):
So this is his attitude towardsyou.
Know how can I make a painting?
That is the very essence of apainting and a way of making
something, maybe, that had notbeen made before.
Jeppe Curth (13:28):
Can you say that Knobel's work are often seen as
a dialogue between a paintingand a sculpture?
Nicholas Robinson (13:36):
Yes, they have a very specific sort of
physical property, partly due tohis interest in materials.
Jeppe Curth (13:43):
Could you try?
Nicholas Robinson (13:44):
to describe how they could look like in
terms of yeah, of course, I meananother group of works that he
made in his early days.
Between 1966, which of coursepredates his studies in
Dusseldorf and 1973, he made250,000 A4 drawings, all
executed in pencil, with variousvertical horizontal lines on
(14:08):
them, and this was exhibited insix high, narrow steel cupboards
, all of which are sealed andonly accessible on demand.
So here you have abstract workthat also has a sort of a
performative element in itsphysicality.
It functions as sculpture, itfunctions as installation and it
functions as also a highlyconceptual exercise.
Um, but continuing his, his,his very key concept, concept of
(14:34):
dematerializing the medium ofpainting.
Um, in 1968, uh, knirble was theof Beuys' students to
incorporate photography in hiswork.
So he started using a slideprojector and he would take the
slides and he would just havethese empty slides, whatever the
(14:54):
acetate or acrylic or whateverthe little plastic square is,
and he would put these slides inthe projector and he would
create squares of light thatwere essentially the empty slide
projected onto a wall.
So this is, of course, putting acomposition on a wall which of
course is akin to a painting,but obviously there's this
(15:16):
conceptual, this kind ofsculptural, performative element
to it too, sculptural,performative element to it too.
These later evolved into slidesthat were covered in copy ink,
onto which he carved veryprecise vertical horizontal
lines which were then castthroughout the room.
And this, this very, veryreductive form of exploring form
(15:37):
, line and form, evolved intohis black and white paintings,
and these were very simplepaintings consisting of black
and white abstract works,essentially, that play with
various combinations ofrectangular forms on their
surface.
So extremely simple andextremely pared back.
(15:57):
But our understanding ofKnoebel, of course and of course
this also relates back to thefirst course that he was taught,
the Bauhaus course on colortheory, etc.
We associate his work todaywith very sophisticated
explorations of color right, yes, especially the Anima Mundi
(16:22):
works.
Jeppe Curth (16:23):
But these works you just mentioned, are they
essential for understanding hisartistic vision, or is there
maybe also other group of worksthat's important?
Nicholas Robinson (16:35):
perhaps what we more readily associate with
his work today and you mentionedthe Anima Mundi works which are
, you know, a very kind ofsophisticated essay that perhaps
represents a culmination of allof these different concerns and
considerations that heconsiders relevant to the
(16:57):
practice, to the discipline ofpainting.
But before he made those, wehave to discover his, we have to
understand his discovery andhis use of colour.
Now, he was part of a greatgeneration of German artists
that all kind of came uptogether exploring painting in
(17:18):
somewhat similar, of course alsodifferent ways, similar, of
course, also different ways.
But in 1977, he experienced asignificant trauma with the
death of his very close friend,blinky Palermo.
And after Blinky died he beganto systematically experiment
with colour and he made a verykey work in response to Blinky's
(17:42):
death.
Now Palermo had become known asquite a sophisticated colorist.
His paintings most often are,or his work is most often noted
for these paintings that consistof these three horizontal bands
of color that have some kind ofrelation to each other.
So there's a certain harmony inthem.
(18:03):
So there's a certain harmony inthem, but there's also a
certain awkwardness in the waythese colors, these tones relate
to each other, very sort ofhard edged, flat passages of
color.
So they really just kind oflook like flags, you might say,
and not like paintings at all.
But Palermo had been consideredquite a sophisticated colourist.
(18:24):
So Knoebel's response to thissort of highly significant
moment, he sort of turned aprofound personal loss into a
kind of artistic legacy fromPalermo to him.
And so this body of work thathe made in response to Palermo's
(18:46):
death 24 Colors for Blinkyconsists of 24 irregular sort of
polygon shapes, funny kind ofcutouts that defy a particular
description or categorization,each with a solid color on the
surface, and and, and this, this, this work, only really
(19:07):
functions if you kind of standin the middle and consider all
of these shapes and colors.
Um, resonating together becomesa very sort of experiential way
to perceive color and form.
This is now part of thepermanent collection at dear
beacon so imi is 84 years oldtoday.
Jeppe Curth (19:36):
Yeah, um, and you just walked us through many of
the different series he madethrough his whole career.
Which one do you?
Nicholas Robinson (19:42):
prefer.
Well, I think that for me, thewell.
I guess we I suppose we haven'tgotten to that point yet in our
talk For me, I think that hisessays in colour are my personal
favourites and what I thinkprobably will end up being his
most significant legacy I meanthe early historic works will
(20:04):
always be that probably will endup being his most significant
legacy.
I mean the early historic workswill always be that, just
because of their, you know thesignificance of their importance
to the development of his work.
But I think his work of thelast you know, 20, 30 years is
more significant because itincorporates all of these
elements in a more rounded way.
And I think I mean we can'toverstate the importance of
(20:27):
color to Knoebel.
I mean, today he's got morethan 700 color cards arranged in
his studio.
All of them are highly orderedon these sort of hooks in his
studio, each one on a hookadjacent to the next one, very,
you know, closely related tonesin this spectrum, looking like
(20:47):
the keys on some kind of crazymonumental xylophone.
So so so the nuance of colorand the relationship of tones to
other tones is something thathe obviously thinks about
constantly, and since the 1990swhen he has begun to paint on
(21:08):
aluminium.
I think that the combination ofthis sort of very industrial
material surface support withthe painting that he makes on
top to me make the mostinteresting works, and for me
the works that he's made, a lotof these aluminium works from
the nineties, or that he startedin the nineties.
He still makes them today.
(21:29):
Um, they have a sort of aanthropomorphic or biomorphic
shape to them.
So they're, they're kind of anirregular, um, irregular form,
um.
And then the surface is painted, often in a in a monochrome,
but sometimes with expressivegestural elements in slightly
(21:50):
related or contrasting tones too, um, so you get quite a lot of
variations of the same color incomplimentary shades or tones,
and the these, these marks areapplied in this very sort of
feathered brushy way which has alot of expression in it, um.
So so you have the shapedground that superficially is
(22:11):
reminiscent of minimalist worksby americans such as eltwith
kelly or frank steller, um, butthe surface differs very
markedly in that knurbel's worksmuch more clearly retain the
hand of the artist in thegestural way the paint is
applied to the surface.
So these paintings become aboutthe material and the surface
(22:33):
support, but also very muchabout the configurations of
brushstrokes on the surfacewhich are incredibly subtle but
also still quite expressive andquite visceral.
So I think that these are avery significant body of work
that Knoebel has made.
And then another series that Ithink is highly significant and
(22:57):
I think probably the marketgenerally agrees, are the Anima
Mundi works.
Probably the market generallyagrees are the Anima Mundi works
.
Now, anima Mundi, very looselytranslated, means, or very
literally translated, means,soul of the world.
But for Knoebel I think we caninfer that this is a certain
(23:18):
kind of artistic soul of theworld and the very, you know,
the very sort of pure responseto form and colour and the way
these two elements sort ofinteract with each other.
Um, and each of these AnimaMundi works, very simple,
consists of a rectangularaluminum panel and each one has
a sort of a strip on the topfunctioning as a framing device
(23:40):
around the central rectangle,and each of these panels is
between sort of 35 and 40centimetres tall.
And these works are configuredin groups of one, two, three,
(24:01):
four and five panels and theseare hung in a row, horizontal
row, on the wall so that thesevarious panels relate to their
siblings in any given group.
And a few minutes ago I spokeabout the dimensions of these
individual panels being between,I think, 35 and 40 centimeters,
(24:22):
the reason that there's a smallrange between them with any
individual group of Anima Mundiworks.
So if it's a three-panel workor a two-panel work or a
five-panel work, each of thosepanels within any given work is
the same, are the same size, butthe dimensions vary very
(24:43):
slightly from one group toanother group, and this is so
that none of the individualpanels could ever be sort of
inadvertently mistaken orswitched out for any other that
are part of any specific group.
Knobel has very specificallycomposed the groupings, made
each panel very rigorouslyrelate to the others in its
(25:08):
group and if you have thesesmall variations in size from
one Anima Mundi group to another, then that of course negates
the possibility of differentpanels being erroneously hung
together, forming a group thatwas not intended to be a group.
And what you have?
You have these sort of, you knowthe repetition of the geometric
(25:30):
constructions and of course,the more panels you have, the
more permutations in you can seein the different colors that he
deploys in all of the differentcompositional elements on any
given panel and across all thepanels.
So the interesting thing aboutthem, like with the 24 colors
(25:53):
for Blinky, is that you stand infront of these and also, I
should say, the solid colorsthat are painted on these
elements of the Anima Mundipanels.
They are also quite, they'requite loosely painted.
I mean, when you stand backfrom them, they appear to be a
very solid color, but when youscrutinize them more closely you
(26:14):
can see a lot of nuance,handwork in the way the
brushwork is on the surface.
So you get this, this, thisharmony, and you get this
dissonance between the, the, thecolors, and then you get this
sort of strange sensation that'salmost a vibration, and this is
very much what he intends orintended for the viewer to
(26:36):
perceive can you mention thegarage representing a gnooble
and maybe also some mages havehigh demand of his works than
others.
Yes, I think that I mean I don't.
I would say that maybe a way toput it might be that he's still
quite a European artist.
I would say his main galleriescertainly are in Europe, and we
(27:03):
can get to why that is in asecond.
Perhaps he has three galleries.
I mean, he has many galleriesthat have shown his work, that
do continue to show his work,but I would say three core
galleries that form the bedrockof his representation, and they
would be in no particular order.
They would be Thaddeus, ropacvon Barter and White Cube.
(27:28):
White Cube, predominantly inLondon, ropac, founded in
Salzburg but also in London, butI suppose quite noted for their
spaces in Paris.
And then Vombarta is a verylongstanding gallery with an
impeccable pedigree, based outof Basel, also with an offshoot
(27:53):
actually here in Copenhagen.
And these three galleries have,you know, steadfastly
represented Knovel's work forquite some time and I guess have
been been the ones that youknow invariably take his work to
most of the fairs and and andhave you know, hosted most of
(28:14):
the important exhibitions in thelast 20-30 years between them.
And then I, and then I thinkthat I think that, um, there's
probably a lack of a majorgallery in New York, and I think
this is one of the things thatis sort of interesting to us,
because, you know, we, we, webuy the work because we, we
(28:37):
think it's, you know,extraordinarily important and
influential work of its type.
But we also feel that it isunder appreciated by the market
at large.
And I think if he had a majorNew York gallery pushing the
work in the same way that theseEuropean galleries had done,
(29:00):
then I would say that his statuson the secondary market perhaps
would be, and on the auctionblock would be, higher than it
is now.
You know what his auctionrecord is.
Jeppe Curth (29:13):
Yeah, of course you do.
Yeah, it's $461,000.
Yeah, for a two and a halfmeter, 170.
Nicholas Robinson (29:19):
Yeah, and that painting is a 80s painting.
I think A late 80s paintingmaybe.
Jeppe Curth (29:26):
It was the work.
Well, the auction record was in2016.
Nicholas Robinson (29:29):
Yeah, but the painting that.
Jeppe Curth (29:30):
It is from 1989.
Nicholas Robinson (29:32):
Yeah, okay, yeah, that's what I thought.
Grace Kelly, yes, exactly, andGrace Kelly is.
It looks like a sort of aprecursor to Anima Mundi.
Jeppe Curth (29:43):
Yes, it is, yeah, indeed, yeah, look very much
alike, yeah, um.
Nicholas Robinson (29:47):
So it has the same reductive elements and the
same relationship, internalrelationship, between the form
and the color components of thework, um.
But to go back to his auctionrecord 461 000.
Now, this is a lot of money byany standards, but when you look
at his sort of peers,especially the artist that
(30:11):
perhaps could be considered tohave extremely parallel careers
to him and are no more or noless important than Knirble,
important than than um Knirbal,but Gunther Ferg um is an artist
who has very similar parallelsin terms of how the uh, in terms
of what the consensus isregarding his importance, his
(30:33):
achievements, et cetera.
Certainly, his place in in inmuseums, uh, in institutions is
is very similar, uh.
But Ferg's auction record is$1.7 million and he shows with
Hauser and Wirth, and so Iimagine that there are many
paintings, significant historicpaintings, that they have sold
that are probably significantlyin excess of this $1.7 million.
(30:57):
But Ferg is dead and, as isoften the case when these sort
of elder statesmen and womenartists pass on um, there's a
sort of a reappraisal of theircontribution and a fresh
understanding about what they'veachieved and a spike of
interest um, that tends to driveuh a better understanding of
(31:19):
their value, which of course youknow means many things inherent
value, monetary value but thewhen the inherent value sort of
appreciation goes up, then itthen inevitably the market
prices go goes up too, um, uh.
So, anyway, ferg, his priceshave gone up a lot posthumously,
um, but Blinky Palermo, whodied in 1977, and so there's
(31:43):
been a long time between thenand now, which has allowed a
very powerful mythology legendto develop around him and his
work and his auction record ismore than $6 million.
So you know there's no realreason why and Noble's prices
(32:07):
are the way they are, but wefeel like we can identify
various sort of capriciousreasons in the market as to why
that's the case.
But this obviously suggeststhat this won't endure forever
and that buying his workprobably is a good value
proposition to do today.
Jeppe Curth (32:26):
As a result of this , yeah, makes sense to do today
as a result of this.
Yeah, makes sense.
For this episode, I calculatedthe annual growth rate from
Immigrant Nobles artworks bycomparing price per square
centimetres from early sales onauctions 32 years ago, which was
the first sales, to recent ones.
Nicholas Robinson (32:44):
Okay, so all auction sales over 32 years.
Jeppe Curth (32:46):
Yes, so it's secondary market, not primary
market, and so therefore, itwill be publicly available.
Auction records yes, and usingthis I estimated a average
annual increase on his prices orgrowth, you can say on 4.8
percent over time, showing thatnoble's value has like growing
steadily in the art market.
This is secondary yeah workprices or secondary market right
(33:09):
.
And also the auction result wasin 2016,.
So eight years ago.
What does this tell us abouthis growth?
But also that eight years agohe has his auction record and
what does that tell us comparedto primary prices?
Nicholas Robinson (33:24):
Well, okay, so this methodology of yours
goes back to the first availableauction record 32 years ago.
Yes, and it shows 4.8% growthper year.
Yes, so what is that total sortof growth over the time span?
Jeppe Curth (33:41):
That is 367%.
Okay, so getting on to 400%.
Nicholas Robinson (33:46):
Well, of course, you know we have
inflation, so the price and thevalues of things goes up
inevitably over time.
But we obviously can see,therefore, that his, his
appreciation within the markethas fantastic longevity and has
been certainly nothing otherthan completely stable, showing,
(34:09):
you know, solid, you knowgrowth over that time.
But his primary market prices,I mean his primary market prices
, vary from, you know, sort of50,000 euros or so for a small
panel, these biomorphic worksthat I described, with the
painterly surface.
You can get one that's maybesort of 40, 50 centimeters, um,
(34:32):
for around that price, maybe60,000 euros, Um, and then they
go up to you know, 300,000 orthereabouts for the very large
ones, two and a half odd meterstall, Um, the Anima Mundis are
obviously varying in pricedepending on how many panels are
(34:52):
in any given constellation, Um,so one panel maybe is uh, sort
of you know 50,000, 45,000 euros.
You know there's a small economyof scale for two, which is 75,
80, 000 euros, three, etc.
Etc.
Um, I've seen five panel animamundis, which are actually the
(35:16):
rarest type but of course themost sophisticated type because
of the variation that you get.
You know you get a lot ofpainting in across these five
panels and you get a very highlyelucidated experience of
everything that Nourbel istrying to achieve and trying to
communicate.
So I've seen five panel worksfor as much as 250, 260,000
(35:41):
euros, but probably on theprimary market, you know they're
still going to be under 200,000.
So you know, obviously, theprimary market prices and the
secondary market prices.
There's not a massivediscrepancy between them, but
there are clear signs thatpeople are trying to sort of
(36:02):
future-proof the prices.
You know they're aware thathe's very old, they're aware
that he doesn't make very manyAnnamundi works anymore.
They're aware that maybethere's very many fewer five
panel, four panel works than twoand three whatever.
So you know there's relativescarcity and that's going to
drive demand and price inrelation to that sort of highly
(36:26):
inelastic supply.
So, yeah, people understandsupply.
So, so, yeah, people understandof course as well that they're
that Knoebel's work is aboutcolor and some of the color
harmonies that you get withinthese paintings are more
attractive and more melodic thanothers, than others.
(36:54):
Um, sometimes, when he's lookingto to try and explore
dissonance between the colors sothat you have what feels, um,
rather inharmonious or perhaps acertain awkward juxtaposition
between the tones, it doesn'tfeel as attractive or as obvious
.
Um, now this is.
This is clearly part of hisintentionality for the work, but
(37:15):
you know, people often prizeprettier things over more
uncomfortable things.
And you know, ones that areovertly pretty, with a a nice
range of very harmonious colours, will probably perform better
than one that has almost nocolour or that has very dark or
(37:35):
muddy colours.
Jeppe Curth (37:42):
So how important would you say that Imi Gnubel is
when we're speaking art history?
Did he find his place already?
Nicholas Robinson (37:52):
Of course, without question.
I mean you, you look at the,you, you can trace this, this
lineage of, of, of color theory,all the way through from the
early part of the the 20thcentury.
Of course you've got thesetitans mondrian, malevich, and
then you've got the bauhaus um,which the importance of the
(38:13):
bauhaus, in my view, can't beoverstated just because of the,
the way that it formed thewellspring for so many other
kinds of things to come from itin the 20th century.
And you know, you can traceknobel directly through this um,
through the course that hetaught.
(38:34):
You know, I think when you lookat conceptual painters and
abstract painters coming out ofGermany in the middle of the
20th century, you can't reallylook past.
You know Gerhard Richter as thegreatest of them all.
But if you look at thegeneration, that is, you know
the same age, essentially thatkind of came out of that.
Then you know the same age,essentially that kind of came
out of that.
Then you know, you look at Fergand Palermo and Knobel as the
(38:57):
three great artists.
And I think that you can'treally, you know you can't
really create too much of adistinction between any of those
three as one being of greaterrepute or achievement than
another.
So, you know, you have to saythat Knoebel is an extremely
seminal abstract painter of thisperiod who's still, you know,
(39:22):
working in a very high leveltoday.
So, yes, he's found his placeand he's, you know, performed,
you know, an immeasurablecontribution to abstract
painting in the 20th century.
Jeppe Curth (39:37):
For listeners who want to delve more into
McNeville's works.
Where should they start andwhat should they look for?
Special periods, special works.
Nicholas Robinson (39:49):
Well, I think you know there's clear bodies
of work that Knoebel has made.
I mean, we mentioned that heworks serially, so I think just
understanding these main bodiesof work is a good way to get an
overview of what his objectivesare.
(40:13):
Objectives are, um, if you lookat the, the the deer website, um
, they have really interestingand fantastic holdings of
historic works and a reallyreally nice descriptions that
sort of summarize what each oneis is about.
That's a really good way to geta fundamental understanding of
of of Knoebel's work.
Um, so I would recommend thatas a good source of research.
And then I think, if you lookat the, the gallery websites I
(40:37):
always enjoy ropex website, justbecause they have a really nice
way of of of showing thechronological sequence of
exhibitions so you can kind ofclick into each show in sequence
, see how one body of workevolves out of a preceding one.
And then you've you've gotpress releases that pertain to
(40:57):
each each show and often videocontent where scholars and the
artist indeed also engaged inconversation talking about the
work.
So that's a really nice way ofkind of consuming information
about his work in a somewhatsort of entertaining content
format.
And then von Barter and WhiteCube too, have got really good
(41:21):
overviews on him and hispractice.
Jeppe Curth (41:26):
Great, nick.
Thanks once again for pickingup brain.
Do you think we missed anything?
Anything to add?
Nicholas Robinson (41:32):
I don't.
I mean listen, we could talkabout his work all day.
He's been working for more than50 years, so it'd be easy to
get more of a deep dive.
But I think as an overview, asa way of summarizing, you know
what he's about and what he'sdone and how he's perceived by
the market.
Jeppe Curth (41:51):
I think, yeah, we've ticked.
We've ticked most of the boxestoday.
Good, thank you.
Well, that's it for us yeah, Iguess it is, and then let's hope
there will be a listener forthe next episode.
Yeah, okay, good, thank you bye.
If you have any questions orany requests, you are more than
welcome to write to us at infoat nordicartpartnerscom, and we
will do what we can to help you.
(42:11):
Thanks for listening and wehope to have you back for our
next episode.
Goodbye.
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