December 30, 2024 • 34 mins
In this episode of The Collectors’ Edge join us, Nordic Art Partners, for a discussion about the work and career of Miriam Cahn, the audacious Swiss painter whose figurative works are amongst the rawest and most expressive of the entire contemporary art milieu. From her formative years in Basel to her education at the Schule for Gestaltung, Cahn has always been an agent of activism and protest, where her bold and unremitting stance led her to reject traditional painting for decades in protest at the art world's male dominance. When she returned to the canvas in the mid 1990s, she continued to defy fashion, taste and expectations with her powerful and challenging themes, forming a reputation as one of the most uniquely uncompromising figures in the entire art world.
With a body of work consisting of over 45 years of artistic innovation, Cahn's work is now celebrated globally, resonating particularly within the context of the MeToo movement due to its profound engagement with sexual politics. Our episode explores the increase in her renown, her almost unparalleled institutional recognition over the past decade, and how her singularity of vision and aesthetic marks her as amongst the most powerful of voices. No episode would be complete without a discussion about the artist’s place within today’s art market, and how Cahn’s soaring reputation amongst museums and collectors has led to a remarkable and consistently high performing secondary market at auction. Join us as we celebrate the unique and jarringly powerful work of Miriam Cahn.
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Episode Transcript
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Jeppe Curth (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic
Art Partners.
In today's episode, we willdive into the career of Miriam
Cahn, an influential Swissartist whose works has impacted
the contemporary art scene.
Joining me, as always, is ourart expert, Nicholas Robinson,
and I'm your host, Jeppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:21):
It is with Alex Rotter at $400 million
Selling here at Christie's.
$400 million is the bid and thepiece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:43):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, A
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:03):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be consideredthoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:28):
Hi Nick.
, hi Jeppe, how are you doingVery well, thank you you.
Thank you, Nick, I'm doing well.
So today's episode is aboutMiriam Kahn.
Nicholas Robinson (01:37):
Miriam Kahn.
Yes, yes.
Jeppe Curth (01:39):
And, as always, can you take us through her early
days in the art world.
What key influence shaped heryou can say raw expressive style
, and how has it evolved over?
Nicholas Robinson (01:50):
time.
Uh, by all means, yes, I mean Ithink that her work is
obviously subject to the usualchange, development, but but one
thing that that I will say thather work has remained
remarkably consistent and insome senses, certainly, relative
to many artists whose workseems to go through many
(02:12):
iterations, her work of todaybears a very strong similarity
to the works that she made 40odd years ago.
But that's, we'll get to that.
We'll get to talking about herwork and so on, in much more,
much more depth.
In terms of biographicalinformation.
(02:33):
There's not.
There's not that muchinformation about her.
I mean, I'm sure if one were todelve very deeply here and
there, one could drag up moreinformation about her sort of
formative years, but I thinkthat's not that necessary.
She was born in 1949 in Basel,in Switzerland.
Her family, her father, wasGerman but moved to Switzerland
(02:59):
actually in 1948, so shortlybefore she was born 1848, so
shortly before she was born.
He was a very prominentclassical archaeologist, a
numismatist, antiquities dealer.
So they lived in a very eruditeand cultured household as she
was growing up, amongstscholarship, interesting things
(03:20):
etc.
She was interested in art froma young age and she studied at
the Schule for Gestaltung inBasel from 1968 until 1973, at
which point, or perhaps duringher studies, during her student
years, she became very involvedin lots of progressive political
(03:42):
movements, especially feminism,anti-nuclear movements and so
on and so forth.
So this is a bit about her.
And then, if we just give avery brief synopsis of her sort
of attitudinal qualities as anartist, she's a very
uncompromising artist who hasapplied a very stringent
(04:04):
feminist perspective throughouther career.
Now, her first works are fromthe late 1970s, um, but now
she's known as a painter, um,and she's always sort of been
been known as a painter, butfrom the late 1970s to the mid
nineties she actually, sheactually shunned painting.
(04:25):
She rejected painting as amedium because she wanted to, to
, to make an act of resistance,a feminist resistance against
the Western art world's male,abstract, minimalist sort of
zeitgeist, and, and, and, and.
By refraining from painting shewas objecting to the fact that
this was the sort of zeitgeist,and and and, and.
By refraining from painting,she was objecting to the fact
(04:45):
that this was the sort ofdominant medium practiced by men
prevailing in the art world.
Um, so she, she made videoperformances and numerous other
things, but, but, but, like Isaid, rejected painting for a
number of years, until themid-1990s when, at the age of 45
or thereabouts, she picked up abrush again and has not stopped
(05:09):
since.
Jeppe Curth (05:10):
Okay, if we then maybe look at the works as such.
It often explores powerfulthemes around the human body,
emotional and conflicts.
What do you?
What does these things?
Why are these things compellingand what?
What kind of themes areparticularly compelling to, to
(05:32):
you and other collectors?
Nicholas Robinson (05:34):
um.
Well, I think there's two, twoquestions really in in in this
idea of, of you know, thisquestion of what, what you know,
you know, what are, what areher paintings like, um, the, the
?
The first question is is whatthey look like, um, her
aesthetic?
And then the second question,which I guess we can get to in a
(05:55):
moment, is really what they'reabout and why they look like
this Um.
But her work is, is based onimages of the body.
They are figurative works invarying scales, with a very sort
of heavily expressionistic feel.
They're very visceral, they'revery raw.
There's a very heightenedemotional quality to the
(06:18):
expression of the figures, ofthe subjects, displaying various
kinds of psychological tension,psychodrama, you know.
They're confrontational figuresthat themselves are confronting
or contemplating or exhibitingthe complexities of human
existence.
The figures themselves arecharacterized by a very vigorous
(06:41):
drawing style, very strong line, and often the figures
themselves are quite, quitesimplified or a little reductive
.
You might call them sort ofstylized, but not in a, in a
sort of, in a typically sort ofmannered way which one might
often infer is used to create acertain sort of artificial
(07:05):
gracefulness.
These figures are not graceful.
They are uncompromisingly rawin their physicality, in their
appearance, sometimes even intheir grotesqueness.
The colors themselves are oftenvery sort of vivid, sparkling,
jewel-like, and the sort ofgarishness of these figures is
(07:26):
complemented by often sort ofblurred, distorted contours and
features, and sometimes evensort of grotesquely exaggerated
sexual organs.
Um, the bodies themselves areoften a little translucent in
the way they're painted, a veryfragmented or ghostly, um sort
(07:48):
of evanescent and and you youmight say they are.
They're almost sort of fightingagainst their dissolution into
abstraction or or even againsttheir erasure.
Um, the backgrounds of the, the, the paintings are often very
simplified.
There's a, uh, often a, a verykind of rudimentary, uh,
(08:11):
landscape sort of schema behindthe figure, um, which, which,
well, which, which, what, itsort of intimates landscape, but
it's not a, not a a veryattractive landscape.
It's not a, uh, not a, a veryattractive landscape, it's not a
very appealing landscape toinhabit.
The bold colors are often veryjarring and otherworldly, um,
(08:33):
which is, which is, you know,creates a sensibility that is
far from serene, but it's, butit's sometimes even a little
hellish and maybe hostile andcertainly, uh, at the very least
unsettling.
That's the sort of generalfeeling, the general tenor of
the paintings.
So that's what they look likeand I guess, if we're going to
(08:58):
delve into what they're about,why they look like this, we can
describe these figures as sortof emblematic of her interest in
exploring from a feministperspective, where she believes
to be this sort of treachery,brutality and beauty to some
(09:19):
extent, but often quite sort ofnegative things that are
inherent in the human condition.
Often her work is made inresponse to current events, um,
but the imagery sort of reallysubsumes the viewer into these
dreamscapes that evoke violence,uh, and a very sort of jarring,
(09:44):
um, lack of of calm.
And this sensitivity,sensibility, is felt on a bodily
level by the figures in thepaintings and designed to show
how we kind of experience thismore generally on a human level
(10:08):
as a result of global policy,war, oppression and these bodies
.
They wear this very heavily andespecially from a woman's
perspective, the figures areoften wrought with anguish,
perhaps even angry as well.
(10:29):
There's a sort of simmeringenergy in how disturbed the
figures are.
So what we find are verychallenging representations of
women, forceful ways in whichwomen and their bodies are shown
(10:51):
to us.
She herself has said I am angry, women still do not have the
same rights as men, but it's notaggression.
Anger is a very good motor todrive art.
And this is what she's doing.
She's using this feeling as avehicle for these highly
expressive figurative paintingswhere the bodies are not shy or
(11:15):
demure or beautiful.
Now the paintings themselves, Ishould say they are tremendously
beautiful in the raw power, inthe palette, in the execution,
in the raw power, in the palette, in the execution.
But the figures, the subjects,the women, they are not bashful,
their gaze is not averted, theposture is full, frontal and
confrontational.
They're often hung at eye level, so the gaze of the viewer is
(11:43):
very much sort of returned withinterest by the painting, and
this is designed to show a veryserious intent.
To well, she describes it asintegrating the viewer, by which
I believe she means to sort ofconfront the viewer.
So this, these figures withtheir prominent, powerful
sexuality, they give birth tochildren, they age, often in a
(12:10):
somewhat unflattering way.
They show the vicissitudes oflife very plainly writ large
upon them.
Sometimes they're even a littleprimal, where this kind of
maybe almost bestial nature iscoming to the surface.
.
So her paintings are issues,you know, with the body, with
(12:34):
sexual politics, power relations, anguish, conflict, fear, loss,
vulnerability, and this iscommunicated with tremendous
intimacy and tremendous honestyand candor.
There's almost always anundercurrent or a subtext of
some kind of violence, ofconfrontation.
(12:55):
I think that probably sums itup.
Jeppe Curth (13:14):
So Mirin Khan in recent years seems to have
gained some very notableattention.
You can say that her subjectmatter is tough.
Why do you think these paintersresonate so strongly with
today's collectors andinstitutes?
Nicholas Robinson (13:24):
Um, well it's .
It's a little difficult toanswer in one sense, uh, because
you know these paintings,they're not beautiful in a
conventional sense.
They're actually rather harsh,and they can be, they can be
quite difficult to look at, theycan be upsetting, they can be
disturbing, but this, of course,in a way speaks to their power,
and, and so this probably goessome way to answering why they
(13:50):
resonate so strongly withinstitutions, um, you know, and
and of course, when, whenmuseums find something to be
very important, um, and they andthey, you know, collectively
create a consensus aboutsomething's importance, then
oftentimes, you know, the, thesort of the collecting market
invariably, invariably, follows.
(14:11):
But I think that, um, you know,there's a few factors that
perhaps we can point to for therise in her popularity, uh, to
to explain the rise in, umunderstanding of her work and
acknowledgement of how powerfuland important this, this work,
is.
You know, the way women and thefemale nude have been depicted
(14:36):
has been a strong themethroughout art history, but in
recent years there's been astrong interest in sort of
subverting this tendency, and bythat I mean challenging the
fact that this is most often themale gaze looking at women, and
often women, in fact painted bymen.
(14:57):
So the nude woman beingdepicted through that very
specific lens where the woman issort of sexualized, she's an
object, where the woman is sortof sexualized, she is an object.
But Kahn's work does completelythe opposite to this.
So you could say that she hasvery strongly rejected these
(15:20):
unrealistic goals of beauty thatart history has sort of set for
us to try and take for granted.
They refute this kind ofidealization, idealization Um so
so.
In one way she's extremelytopical, um, for the art world
today, because she is reclaimingthe female body, uh, from all
(15:40):
of this uh preceding baggage andexisting connotation baggage
and existing connotation.
Um so so.
Of course, part of that is thatwomen artists are now being
celebrated um, much more fortheir, for their work, and
deservedly so, which hithertowas often not the case.
(16:01):
She, she herself hasacknowledged that this is a big
part of her objective.
She said, she has said, half ofart history doesn't exist
because we weren't part of it,we being women.
Now women artists have to makeup for that missing half of
culture.
So you know her very stridentposition as a sort of a cultural
(16:21):
warrior and a and a politicalwarrior, um is, is, is very much
of of the time.
Um, I think that there are, youknow, numerous artists, uh,
female artists, who have been,you know, celebrated and because
she's been working for a longtime, for you know, 45 years or
(16:42):
so Um, it's been a long timethat that it's taken the the,
the art world to sort ofrecognize that.
But where they've cottoned ontoartists like, as an example,
like Marlene Duma, whose workhas become very successful and
has been for 25 years now.
You know, miriam Khan is is avery obvious contemporary and
(17:05):
peer of Marlene Duma, and yetit's only in the recent past
that she has been recognized assuch and there's still some way
to go, you might say, in thatregard as well.
Jeppe Curth (17:18):
Thanks, nick.
Where can collectors findKahn's works featured
prominently in galleries andmuseums, and what are some of
the recent exhibitions that hadmaybe boosted her profile?
Nicholas Robinson (17:29):
um, well, she's always been very well
regarded by institutions.
I mean, she started working inthe late 1970s with charcoal
works and then made somepaintings before she had this
painting hiatus that I mentioned, um, but her video work and her
performance work was alwayspopular with institutions.
(17:52):
In 1981, the very highlyrenowned art historian and
museum curator, jean-christopheArmand.
He invited her to take part ina group show at the Kunsthalle
in Basel and that was thebeginning.
In 1982, she was included inDocumenta, but actually this may
(18:14):
have worked to her advantage.
There was a little bit of acontroversy with her
participation in Documenta in 82.
Oftentimes, institutionalinstallations of her work
consist of many paintings sortof shoehorned into a relatively
small space, hung quite closetogether, high and low, uh in a,
(18:37):
in a quite intense sort ofsalon style hanging where where
there's a, a, a very large arrayof figures, all of which are,
you know, sort of uh,confronting the viewer in the
space simultaneously.
So this intentionality is verymuch part of how she likes to
install these and in 82, some ofthese paintings were taken down
(19:02):
without her permission, as shetells it, in order to make space
for other artists, and she, asa result, reacted by withdrawing
all of her work from this andI'm sure there was a controversy
of sorts that perhaps evenfueled her reputation.
It certainly didn't harm itbecause in 84, she represented
(19:25):
switzerland at the venicebiennale.
Her work is in moma, tate,reina, sofia, I mean it's, it's
everywhere that she has manyworks in the in the pinot
collection, um.
But in recent years, um, shehas had highly important museum
exhibitions pretty much everyyear.
(19:45):
For the last sort of five orsix years, she showed at the
Charlottenburg Kunsthal inCopenhagen, with a solo show in
2021.
She was involved in the VeniceBiennale in 2022, a solo show in
the Palais de Tokyo in Paris,2023.
(20:06):
She currently has a show at theStedelijk Amsterdam until the
end of January next year.
In 2022, she was in a groupexhibition at the Albertina,
which was the premise of theshow was modern painters in
dialogue with the work of EdvardMunch.
She was included alongsideMarlene Dumas, who I mentioned,
georg Baselitz, andy Warhol,peter Doig, jasper Johns uh,
(20:30):
tracy Emin uh and Miriam Kahn,so seven artists um, all of whom
are extremely eminent uh, andone of which was her Um.
So you know she's, she's reallyhighly regarded.
She was in had a solo show atthe Museum of Modern Art in
Warsaw in 2019, at Haus derKunst Munich, kunsthaus Bregenz
(20:53):
Reina Sophia Kunstmuseum Bern.
She's been involved inDocumenta in Kassel and in
Athens 2017, sydney Biennial2018, and a group show in the
Centre Pompidou 2016.
I mean, this is going backeight years.
Where she is, you know.
I mean she's having significantexposure in the world's leading
(21:13):
museums, everywhere around theworld.
Um so, so that obviously isindicative that you know there's
a, there's a very strongawareness of what an important
painter she, she, really is,awareness of what an important
painter she, she really is.
Jeppe Curth (21:27):
Okay, let's.
Let's talk a little bit aboutprices.
Um, her auction record was madein 2023 and was $700,000.
It was 170 by 80.
Yeah, what can you tell usabout her prices?
I, I think it's both primaryand secondary and and how has it
developed?
Nicholas Robinson (21:47):
Um, well, the prices, the prices have gone up
in the last few years inrelation to this shift in the
market.
You know, this record pricethat you mentioned, that's is a
big price.
Of course it's not an insaneprice and you might say that
it's about time that her workstarts to get the recognition in
(22:08):
a market sense that it deserves.
But that price is a little bitof an outlier because the next
record price, after that 700, isin the 300s.
So half of that, and there areseveral around that level, but
no others in between that evenclosely approach the top price.
(22:29):
So that's the, that's the and.
And just to reference MarleneDuma, again, um, since this is a
, you know, a key contextualthing in, in my opinion, in our
opinion, um, her record price atauction is more than $6 million
.
So that's gives a little bit ofcontextual information.
Um, and if you look at the topprices in the secondary market
(22:53):
and of course, like, like always, we rely on data that's in the
public domain, in the variousauction price uh databases that
that we utilize routinely, um,the top 70 results for her, the
top 70 price results have beenuh, since when, would you say if
(23:15):
you were to guess based on whatI've said.
Jeppe Curth (23:17):
Well, I know that her first auction was in 2004.
Nicholas Robinson (23:20):
Okay, but I'm talking about the top 70 prices
.
Jeppe Curth (23:25):
Well, I would say since 2018.
Nicholas Robinson (23:29):
No, it's not the worst guess, given the
institutional stuff that Imentioned beginning around then,
but the top 70 results have alltaken place since 2023.
So it's very so.
It is quite a recent phenomenonthat her work is consistently
selling for high prices in themarquee auctions around the
world.
So that's the secondary market,now the primary market.
(23:53):
Her work is represented by MayaRigger and Jocelyn Wolfe.
Maya Rigger is a German gallerywith some other branches and
Jocelyn Wolfe is based in Parisand she is very loyal to these
two galleries who have developedher career over many years.
(24:14):
And her, I mean, uh, her primarymarket prices.
You can still buy paintings, um, for 80, a hundred, 120,000.
There's quite a few differentprice, uh, different sizes that
she makes.
So obviously there's a slidingscale of prices.
Um, I actually don't know whatthe cheapest primary market
price would be.
My guess is that it's probablyaround $60,000 euros, but I
(24:37):
would need to actually qualifythat.
We've bought primary marketpaintings by her from these
galleries a number of years agoand subsequently some paintings
on the secondary market.
But, yeah, the secondary marketprices are outstripping the
(24:58):
primary market prices, I think,probably by a factor of two to
one, more or less.
Jeppe Curth (25:03):
Okay, good Thanks, Nick.
I also have a number for you.
The compound annual growth rategoing from 2004, where she had
the first one per squarecentimeters, has been almost 24%
a year.
Nicholas Robinson (25:22):
Yeah, how does this sound Well?
I mean, I think her paintingsprobably cost very little in
2004.
You probably buy a painting for$10,000.
So obviously, when youextrapolate from that, you're
going to have you know whatappear to be attractive
financial numbers.
If you've been acquiring herwork, you know in the past when,
when they, when they cost a lotless.
I think you know, I think in a,in the case of of someone like
(25:45):
Miriam Khan, the paintings areso astonishingly vivid.
I guess you could say and, and,and.
I've taken a long time to comearound to them.
You know it's taken me, youknow, quite some work to sort of
be able to, to, to, to reallylook at them, to be able to
really appreciate them.
There's a harshness in themthat is.
(26:07):
That is really uncomfortable.
I had that feeling sometimes,yeah, and I, and I'm sure that
collectors that have slowly andsteadily embraced them have have
felt the same thing.
Now, some people overcome thatby challenging themselves and
feeling like they have toacquire really important work.
And some people, honestly let'snot be disingenuous Some people
(26:28):
buy them because theyunderstand that she's a really
major painter and it's, you know, the, the, the, the industry
markers are indicative of, ofsomebody who's, of somebody
whose value is really going togo up or continue to go up.
And you know they buy them inspite of their appearance, just
(26:49):
because they understand thatthis is, you know, something
that can represent a reallysubstantial asset.
But I think there's alsoanother.
Really well, I don't know ifit's a reason why her, her, her
sort of market is, is spiked,but I think that you know any,
any good art, any great art,obviously, is often great
(27:12):
because of its relevance tocontemporary culture, because of
the way perhaps it, it sort ofrecognizes or holds a mirror up
to things that are happening,that are topical, and and her
works have become, you know,more successful since the sort
of advent of the, the me toomovement.
(27:33):
In fact, you know, she, she,she is overtly addressed this
notion, she's actually said thather works have become more
sexual even since, um, since theme, the advent of the me too
movement.
So I also think that that justthis, you know, this sort of
heightened awareness of thesekinds of sexual politics that we
(27:54):
see, you know, across allstrata of society, we see this,
this kind of we see this, these,these ideas inflecting people's
attitudes, behavior in theworkplace and in all facets of
the way they live their lives.
And, of course, if the artworld is going to be relevant,
if it's going to reflect thetimes in which we live and in
(28:16):
the times in which the work ismade, then of course it has to
recognize such things and she,above anyone, is, is perhaps
super adept at doing this.
So, in the light of this, this,this me too sensibility, um, uh
, which I which I actually dothink is is quite relevant to
her popularity today, or her, orthe acknowledgement of her
(28:38):
significance as an artist, youknow, this feminist voice that
she has, which which veryclearly explores, uh, what it
means to be a woman, or thephysicality of that, um, you
know, inherent to this, uh, sortof investigation which I think
is the most topical part is, youknow, these questions about the
body, who controls the body?
You know who.
(28:59):
Her body, or women's bodies ina general sense, um, and, and
you know she's, she's very, um,well, she's very interested in,
in, in, in sort of transforminguh, uh, this, and there's a
quote that that she has, that heshe has said, which I think is
very instructive about this.
(29:19):
She said my work has a lot to dowith the complexities of the
whole thing between sex power,aggression.
I'm 70 now.
This was a few years ago.
I'm 70 now and we have all theconstitutions in democratic
countries where men and womenare the same, but they're not.
Why doesn't it work?
Women have to be more likewarriors and fight for it.
(29:40):
I am a fighter.
I hope so.
She has always been like this,but of course the potency of her
work is partly contingent onthe preparedness of people and
audience generally to listen anaudience generally to listen.
Jeppe Curth (30:02):
Okay, so for a collector who is new to her
works, what elements should theylook for to appreciate her
unique style and where can theyfind her works?
Well, her works.
Nicholas Robinson (30:14):
Are, you know , to appreciate her work, or to
get something that one is, youknow, considers to be are.
Are you know, to appreciate her, her work, or to get something
that one is, you know, considersto be a?
You know a really um, stellarexample of of what she does?
You know you want a, you want afigure, and that could be
either a smaller painting, whichprobably would consist of just
a sort of a bust head um withyou, whatever kind of expression
(30:37):
uh, that faces is, is, isexhibiting um, or a larger
painting.
You know would often have oneor more figures in it, set in
this kind of strangely um,dissonant landscape that I
described earlier.
Um, now, of course there's.
You know, if you're going tosort of assess them
(31:00):
qualitatively, you're going tolook at, you know, the quality
of the painting, the, howexpressive, communicative the
figure is or the face is.
You know any painting has abetter or worse demonstration of
how these elements sort ofcohere together in a
compositional sense, in a, in apalette sense, and you know some
(31:22):
of her paintings, I suppose bythese subjective criteria, are
better than others, um, but butyou know this is what you would
look for in in her work.
It would need to contain thesebasic elements in order to be,
you know, a signature thing, asignature painting by her.
And then if you wish to studymore, then, you know, you just
(31:42):
have to resort to, you know,looking online.
There's nice information abouther work on the two gallery
websites I mentioned, maya Rigaand Jocelyn Wolfe.
But if you, if you, you know,look a little more deeply, you
can find some interestinginterviews with little more
deeply, you can find someinteresting interviews with her
on YouTube.
You can find a really nice uhinterview with her on the Cura
(32:04):
magazine website, which is uh,uh, you know, sort of curatorial
um website.
There's a great interview, uh,with Hans Ulrich Obrist uh
website.
And just by, you know, takingthe very basic effort to look
around, you can come across lotsof information where you really
understand what she's about,and you can, of course, see
(32:26):
plenty of examples of herpainting where these themes,
these ideas, are sort of fullyexecuted and obvious.
Jeppe Curth (32:37):
Great, nick.
Well, I think we covered mostanything we forgot, no, I don't
think so.
Nicholas Robinson (32:44):
I think that her work is, you know, I mean we
I can sit here and answer sortof questions all day but it's
the kind of thing that it's thekind of painting that is so
visceral and so raw that youreally just have to look at a
couple of them, and they're socommunicative that it's very
easy to sort of kind ofinstinctively feel where they're
(33:05):
coming from, just from the mostsort of cursory observation of
them.
So I urge people just to dothat and then you know, they
will see that.
You know, this is a very rarekind of painting that very much
comes from this, this, thistrajectory of Munch, uh, that I
mentioned earlier, um, whereshe's really sort of channeling
(33:25):
this very raw psychologicalpower and and absolutely
distilling it and communicatingit as economically and
powerfully as as it's possibleto do in a painting.
Jeppe Curth (33:36):
Thank you, Nick.
Well, I guess that is all forthis time.
I just wanted to once again saythank you, Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (33:43):
Thank you so?
Jeppe Curth (33:43):
much For letting me pick your brain.
Yeah good and thank you to allour listeners.
I think this will be the lastepisode for this year.
Nicholas Robinson (33:53):
Yes.
Jeppe Curth (33:54):
I guess it will, yeah, so all that remains is for
me to wish you all a happyholidays, and I hope you all get
a nice break and enjoy the endof the season, and we are
looking forward to having youback with us early next year bye
.
Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic
Art Partners.
In today's episode, we willdive into the career of Miriam
Cahn, an influential Swissartist whose works has impacted
the contemporary art scene.
Joining me, as always, is ourart expert, Nicholas Robinson,
and I'm your host, Jeppe Curth.
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:21):
It is with Alex Rotter at $400 million
Selling here at Christie's.
$400 million is the bid and thepiece is sold.
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
(00:43):
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, A
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
(01:03):
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be consideredthoughtful and well informed in
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:28):
Hi Nick.
, hi Jeppe, how are you doingVery well, thank you you.
Thank you, Nick, I'm doing well.
So today's episode is aboutMiriam Kahn.
Nicholas Robinson (01:37):
Miriam Kahn.
Yes, yes.
Jeppe Curth (01:39):
And, as always, can you take us through her early
days in the art world.
What key influence shaped heryou can say raw expressive style
, and how has it evolved over?
Nicholas Robinson (01:50):
time.
Uh, by all means, yes, I mean Ithink that her work is
obviously subject to the usualchange, development, but but one
thing that that I will say thather work has remained
remarkably consistent and insome senses, certainly, relative
to many artists whose workseems to go through many
(02:12):
iterations, her work of todaybears a very strong similarity
to the works that she made 40odd years ago.
But that's, we'll get to that.
We'll get to talking about herwork and so on, in much more,
much more depth.
In terms of biographicalinformation.
(02:33):
There's not.
There's not that muchinformation about her.
I mean, I'm sure if one were todelve very deeply here and
there, one could drag up moreinformation about her sort of
formative years, but I thinkthat's not that necessary.
She was born in 1949 in Basel,in Switzerland.
Her family, her father, wasGerman but moved to Switzerland
(02:59):
actually in 1948, so shortlybefore she was born 1848, so
shortly before she was born.
He was a very prominentclassical archaeologist, a
numismatist, antiquities dealer.
So they lived in a very eruditeand cultured household as she
was growing up, amongstscholarship, interesting things
(03:20):
etc.
She was interested in art froma young age and she studied at
the Schule for Gestaltung inBasel from 1968 until 1973, at
which point, or perhaps duringher studies, during her student
years, she became very involvedin lots of progressive political
(03:42):
movements, especially feminism,anti-nuclear movements and so
on and so forth.
So this is a bit about her.
And then, if we just give avery brief synopsis of her sort
of attitudinal qualities as anartist, she's a very
uncompromising artist who hasapplied a very stringent
(04:04):
feminist perspective throughouther career.
Now, her first works are fromthe late 1970s, um, but now
she's known as a painter, um,and she's always sort of been
been known as a painter, butfrom the late 1970s to the mid
nineties she actually, sheactually shunned painting.
(04:25):
She rejected painting as amedium because she wanted to, to
, to make an act of resistance,a feminist resistance against
the Western art world's male,abstract, minimalist sort of
zeitgeist, and, and, and, and.
By refraining from painting shewas objecting to the fact that
this was the sort of zeitgeist,and and and, and.
By refraining from painting,she was objecting to the fact
(04:45):
that this was the sort ofdominant medium practiced by men
prevailing in the art world.
Um, so she, she made videoperformances and numerous other
things, but, but, but, like Isaid, rejected painting for a
number of years, until themid-1990s when, at the age of 45
or thereabouts, she picked up abrush again and has not stopped
(05:09):
since.
Jeppe Curth (05:10):
Okay, if we then maybe look at the works as such.
It often explores powerfulthemes around the human body,
emotional and conflicts.
What do you?
What does these things?
Why are these things compellingand what?
What kind of themes areparticularly compelling to, to
(05:32):
you and other collectors?
Nicholas Robinson (05:34):
um.
Well, I think there's two, twoquestions really in in in this
idea of, of you know, thisquestion of what, what you know,
you know, what are, what areher paintings like, um, the, the
?
The first question is is whatthey look like, um, her
aesthetic?
And then the second question,which I guess we can get to in a
(05:55):
moment, is really what they'reabout and why they look like
this Um.
But her work is, is based onimages of the body.
They are figurative works invarying scales, with a very sort
of heavily expressionistic feel.
They're very visceral, they'revery raw.
There's a very heightenedemotional quality to the
(06:18):
expression of the figures, ofthe subjects, displaying various
kinds of psychological tension,psychodrama, you know.
They're confrontational figuresthat themselves are confronting
or contemplating or exhibitingthe complexities of human
existence.
The figures themselves arecharacterized by a very vigorous
(06:41):
drawing style, very strong line, and often the figures
themselves are quite, quitesimplified or a little reductive
.
You might call them sort ofstylized, but not in a, in a
sort of, in a typically sort ofmannered way which one might
often infer is used to create acertain sort of artificial
(07:05):
gracefulness.
These figures are not graceful.
They are uncompromisingly rawin their physicality, in their
appearance, sometimes even intheir grotesqueness.
The colors themselves are oftenvery sort of vivid, sparkling,
jewel-like, and the sort ofgarishness of these figures is
(07:26):
complemented by often sort ofblurred, distorted contours and
features, and sometimes evensort of grotesquely exaggerated
sexual organs.
Um, the bodies themselves areoften a little translucent in
the way they're painted, a veryfragmented or ghostly, um sort
(07:48):
of evanescent and and you youmight say they are.
They're almost sort of fightingagainst their dissolution into
abstraction or or even againsttheir erasure.
Um, the backgrounds of the, the, the paintings are often very
simplified.
There's a, uh, often a, a verykind of rudimentary, uh,
(08:11):
landscape sort of schema behindthe figure, um, which, which,
well, which, which, what, itsort of intimates landscape, but
it's not a, not a a veryattractive landscape.
It's not a, uh, not a, a veryattractive landscape, it's not a
very appealing landscape toinhabit.
The bold colors are often veryjarring and otherworldly, um,
(08:33):
which is, which is, you know,creates a sensibility that is
far from serene, but it's, butit's sometimes even a little
hellish and maybe hostile andcertainly, uh, at the very least
unsettling.
That's the sort of generalfeeling, the general tenor of
the paintings.
So that's what they look likeand I guess, if we're going to
(08:58):
delve into what they're about,why they look like this, we can
describe these figures as sortof emblematic of her interest in
exploring from a feministperspective, where she believes
to be this sort of treachery,brutality and beauty to some
(09:19):
extent, but often quite sort ofnegative things that are
inherent in the human condition.
Often her work is made inresponse to current events, um,
but the imagery sort of reallysubsumes the viewer into these
dreamscapes that evoke violence,uh, and a very sort of jarring,
(09:44):
um, lack of of calm.
And this sensitivity,sensibility, is felt on a bodily
level by the figures in thepaintings and designed to show
how we kind of experience thismore generally on a human level
(10:08):
as a result of global policy,war, oppression and these bodies
.
They wear this very heavily andespecially from a woman's
perspective, the figures areoften wrought with anguish,
perhaps even angry as well.
(10:29):
There's a sort of simmeringenergy in how disturbed the
figures are.
So what we find are verychallenging representations of
women, forceful ways in whichwomen and their bodies are shown
(10:51):
to us.
She herself has said I am angry, women still do not have the
same rights as men, but it's notaggression.
Anger is a very good motor todrive art.
And this is what she's doing.
She's using this feeling as avehicle for these highly
expressive figurative paintingswhere the bodies are not shy or
(11:15):
demure or beautiful.
Now the paintings themselves, Ishould say they are tremendously
beautiful in the raw power, inthe palette, in the execution,
in the raw power, in the palette, in the execution.
But the figures, the subjects,the women, they are not bashful,
their gaze is not averted, theposture is full, frontal and
confrontational.
They're often hung at eye level, so the gaze of the viewer is
(11:43):
very much sort of returned withinterest by the painting, and
this is designed to show a veryserious intent.
To well, she describes it asintegrating the viewer, by which
I believe she means to sort ofconfront the viewer.
So this, these figures withtheir prominent, powerful
sexuality, they give birth tochildren, they age, often in a
(12:10):
somewhat unflattering way.
They show the vicissitudes oflife very plainly writ large
upon them.
Sometimes they're even a littleprimal, where this kind of
maybe almost bestial nature iscoming to the surface.
.
So her paintings are issues,you know, with the body, with
(12:34):
sexual politics, power relations, anguish, conflict, fear, loss,
vulnerability, and this iscommunicated with tremendous
intimacy and tremendous honestyand candor.
There's almost always anundercurrent or a subtext of
some kind of violence, ofconfrontation.
(12:55):
I think that probably sums itup.
Jeppe Curth (13:14):
So Mirin Khan in recent years seems to have
gained some very notableattention.
You can say that her subjectmatter is tough.
Why do you think these paintersresonate so strongly with
today's collectors andinstitutes?
Nicholas Robinson (13:24):
Um, well it's .
It's a little difficult toanswer in one sense, uh, because
you know these paintings,they're not beautiful in a
conventional sense.
They're actually rather harsh,and they can be, they can be
quite difficult to look at, theycan be upsetting, they can be
disturbing, but this, of course,in a way speaks to their power,
and, and so this probably goessome way to answering why they
(13:50):
resonate so strongly withinstitutions, um, you know, and
and of course, when, whenmuseums find something to be
very important, um, and they andthey, you know, collectively
create a consensus aboutsomething's importance, then
oftentimes, you know, the, thesort of the collecting market
invariably, invariably, follows.
(14:11):
But I think that, um, you know,there's a few factors that
perhaps we can point to for therise in her popularity, uh, to
to explain the rise in, umunderstanding of her work and
acknowledgement of how powerfuland important this, this work,
is.
You know, the way women and thefemale nude have been depicted
(14:36):
has been a strong themethroughout art history, but in
recent years there's been astrong interest in sort of
subverting this tendency, and bythat I mean challenging the
fact that this is most often themale gaze looking at women, and
often women, in fact painted bymen.
(14:57):
So the nude woman beingdepicted through that very
specific lens where the woman issort of sexualized, she's an
object, where the woman is sortof sexualized, she is an object.
But Kahn's work does completelythe opposite to this.
So you could say that she hasvery strongly rejected these
(15:20):
unrealistic goals of beauty thatart history has sort of set for
us to try and take for granted.
They refute this kind ofidealization, idealization Um so
so.
In one way she's extremelytopical, um, for the art world
today, because she is reclaimingthe female body, uh, from all
(15:40):
of this uh preceding baggage andexisting connotation baggage
and existing connotation.
Um so so.
Of course, part of that is thatwomen artists are now being
celebrated um, much more fortheir, for their work, and
deservedly so, which hithertowas often not the case.
(16:01):
She, she herself hasacknowledged that this is a big
part of her objective.
She said, she has said, half ofart history doesn't exist
because we weren't part of it,we being women.
Now women artists have to makeup for that missing half of
culture.
So you know her very stridentposition as a sort of a cultural
(16:21):
warrior and a and a politicalwarrior, um is, is, is very much
of of the time.
Um, I think that there are, youknow, numerous artists, uh,
female artists, who have been,you know, celebrated and because
she's been working for a longtime, for you know, 45 years or
(16:42):
so Um, it's been a long timethat that it's taken the the,
the art world to sort ofrecognize that.
But where they've cottoned ontoartists like, as an example,
like Marlene Duma, whose workhas become very successful and
has been for 25 years now.
You know, miriam Khan is is avery obvious contemporary and
(17:05):
peer of Marlene Duma, and yetit's only in the recent past
that she has been recognized assuch and there's still some way
to go, you might say, in thatregard as well.
Jeppe Curth (17:18):
Thanks, nick.
Where can collectors findKahn's works featured
prominently in galleries andmuseums, and what are some of
the recent exhibitions that hadmaybe boosted her profile?
Nicholas Robinson (17:29):
um, well, she's always been very well
regarded by institutions.
I mean, she started working inthe late 1970s with charcoal
works and then made somepaintings before she had this
painting hiatus that I mentioned, um, but her video work and her
performance work was alwayspopular with institutions.
(17:52):
In 1981, the very highlyrenowned art historian and
museum curator, jean-christopheArmand.
He invited her to take part ina group show at the Kunsthalle
in Basel and that was thebeginning.
In 1982, she was included inDocumenta, but actually this may
(18:14):
have worked to her advantage.
There was a little bit of acontroversy with her
participation in Documenta in 82.
Oftentimes, institutionalinstallations of her work
consist of many paintings sortof shoehorned into a relatively
small space, hung quite closetogether, high and low, uh in a,
(18:37):
in a quite intense sort ofsalon style hanging where where
there's a, a, a very large arrayof figures, all of which are,
you know, sort of uh,confronting the viewer in the
space simultaneously.
So this intentionality is verymuch part of how she likes to
install these and in 82, some ofthese paintings were taken down
(19:02):
without her permission, as shetells it, in order to make space
for other artists, and she, asa result, reacted by withdrawing
all of her work from this andI'm sure there was a controversy
of sorts that perhaps evenfueled her reputation.
It certainly didn't harm itbecause in 84, she represented
(19:25):
switzerland at the venicebiennale.
Her work is in moma, tate,reina, sofia, I mean it's, it's
everywhere that she has manyworks in the in the pinot
collection, um.
But in recent years, um, shehas had highly important museum
exhibitions pretty much everyyear.
(19:45):
For the last sort of five orsix years, she showed at the
Charlottenburg Kunsthal inCopenhagen, with a solo show in
2021.
She was involved in the VeniceBiennale in 2022, a solo show in
the Palais de Tokyo in Paris,2023.
(20:06):
She currently has a show at theStedelijk Amsterdam until the
end of January next year.
In 2022, she was in a groupexhibition at the Albertina,
which was the premise of theshow was modern painters in
dialogue with the work of EdvardMunch.
She was included alongsideMarlene Dumas, who I mentioned,
georg Baselitz, andy Warhol,peter Doig, jasper Johns uh,
(20:30):
tracy Emin uh and Miriam Kahn,so seven artists um, all of whom
are extremely eminent uh, andone of which was her Um.
So you know she's, she's reallyhighly regarded.
She was in had a solo show atthe Museum of Modern Art in
Warsaw in 2019, at Haus derKunst Munich, kunsthaus Bregenz
(20:53):
Reina Sophia Kunstmuseum Bern.
She's been involved inDocumenta in Kassel and in
Athens 2017, sydney Biennial2018, and a group show in the
Centre Pompidou 2016.
I mean, this is going backeight years.
Where she is, you know.
I mean she's having significantexposure in the world's leading
(21:13):
museums, everywhere around theworld.
Um so, so that obviously isindicative that you know there's
a, there's a very strongawareness of what an important
painter she, she, really is,awareness of what an important
painter she, she really is.
Jeppe Curth (21:27):
Okay, let's.
Let's talk a little bit aboutprices.
Um, her auction record was madein 2023 and was $700,000.
It was 170 by 80.
Yeah, what can you tell usabout her prices?
I, I think it's both primaryand secondary and and how has it
developed?
Nicholas Robinson (21:47):
Um, well, the prices, the prices have gone up
in the last few years inrelation to this shift in the
market.
You know, this record pricethat you mentioned, that's is a
big price.
Of course it's not an insaneprice and you might say that
it's about time that her workstarts to get the recognition in
(22:08):
a market sense that it deserves.
But that price is a little bitof an outlier because the next
record price, after that 700, isin the 300s.
So half of that, and there areseveral around that level, but
no others in between that evenclosely approach the top price.
(22:29):
So that's the, that's the and.
And just to reference MarleneDuma, again, um, since this is a
, you know, a key contextualthing in, in my opinion, in our
opinion, um, her record price atauction is more than $6 million
.
So that's gives a little bit ofcontextual information.
Um, and if you look at the topprices in the secondary market
(22:53):
and of course, like, like always, we rely on data that's in the
public domain, in the variousauction price uh databases that
that we utilize routinely, um,the top 70 results for her, the
top 70 price results have beenuh, since when, would you say if
(23:15):
you were to guess based on whatI've said.
Jeppe Curth (23:17):
Well, I know that her first auction was in 2004.
Nicholas Robinson (23:20):
Okay, but I'm talking about the top 70 prices
.
Jeppe Curth (23:25):
Well, I would say since 2018.
Nicholas Robinson (23:29):
No, it's not the worst guess, given the
institutional stuff that Imentioned beginning around then,
but the top 70 results have alltaken place since 2023.
So it's very so.
It is quite a recent phenomenonthat her work is consistently
selling for high prices in themarquee auctions around the
world.
So that's the secondary market,now the primary market.
(23:53):
Her work is represented by MayaRigger and Jocelyn Wolfe.
Maya Rigger is a German gallerywith some other branches and
Jocelyn Wolfe is based in Parisand she is very loyal to these
two galleries who have developedher career over many years.
(24:14):
And her, I mean, uh, her primarymarket prices.
You can still buy paintings, um, for 80, a hundred, 120,000.
There's quite a few differentprice, uh, different sizes that
she makes.
So obviously there's a slidingscale of prices.
Um, I actually don't know whatthe cheapest primary market
price would be.
My guess is that it's probablyaround $60,000 euros, but I
(24:37):
would need to actually qualifythat.
We've bought primary marketpaintings by her from these
galleries a number of years agoand subsequently some paintings
on the secondary market.
But, yeah, the secondary marketprices are outstripping the
(24:58):
primary market prices, I think,probably by a factor of two to
one, more or less.
Jeppe Curth (25:03):
Okay, good Thanks, Nick.
I also have a number for you.
The compound annual growth rategoing from 2004, where she had
the first one per squarecentimeters, has been almost 24%
a year.
Nicholas Robinson (25:22):
Yeah, how does this sound Well?
I mean, I think her paintingsprobably cost very little in
2004.
You probably buy a painting for$10,000.
So obviously, when youextrapolate from that, you're
going to have you know whatappear to be attractive
financial numbers.
If you've been acquiring herwork, you know in the past when,
when they, when they cost a lotless.
I think you know, I think in a,in the case of of someone like
(25:45):
Miriam Khan, the paintings areso astonishingly vivid.
I guess you could say and, and,and.
I've taken a long time to comearound to them.
You know it's taken me, youknow, quite some work to sort of
be able to, to, to, to reallylook at them, to be able to
really appreciate them.
There's a harshness in themthat is.
(26:07):
That is really uncomfortable.
I had that feeling sometimes,yeah, and I, and I'm sure that
collectors that have slowly andsteadily embraced them have have
felt the same thing.
Now, some people overcome thatby challenging themselves and
feeling like they have toacquire really important work.
And some people, honestly let'snot be disingenuous Some people
(26:28):
buy them because theyunderstand that she's a really
major painter and it's, you know, the, the, the, the industry
markers are indicative of, ofsomebody who's, of somebody
whose value is really going togo up or continue to go up.
And you know they buy them inspite of their appearance, just
(26:49):
because they understand thatthis is, you know, something
that can represent a reallysubstantial asset.
But I think there's alsoanother.
Really well, I don't know ifit's a reason why her, her, her
sort of market is, is spiked,but I think that you know any,
any good art, any great art,obviously, is often great
(27:12):
because of its relevance tocontemporary culture, because of
the way perhaps it, it sort ofrecognizes or holds a mirror up
to things that are happening,that are topical, and and her
works have become, you know,more successful since the sort
of advent of the, the me toomovement.
(27:33):
In fact, you know, she, she,she is overtly addressed this
notion, she's actually said thather works have become more
sexual even since, um, since theme, the advent of the me too
movement.
So I also think that that justthis, you know, this sort of
heightened awareness of thesekinds of sexual politics that we
(27:54):
see, you know, across allstrata of society, we see this,
this kind of we see this, these,these ideas inflecting people's
attitudes, behavior in theworkplace and in all facets of
the way they live their lives.
And, of course, if the artworld is going to be relevant,
if it's going to reflect thetimes in which we live and in
(28:16):
the times in which the work ismade, then of course it has to
recognize such things and she,above anyone, is, is perhaps
super adept at doing this.
So, in the light of this, this,this me too sensibility, um, uh
, which I which I actually dothink is is quite relevant to
her popularity today, or her, orthe acknowledgement of her
(28:38):
significance as an artist, youknow, this feminist voice that
she has, which which veryclearly explores, uh, what it
means to be a woman, or thephysicality of that, um, you
know, inherent to this, uh, sortof investigation which I think
is the most topical part is, youknow, these questions about the
body, who controls the body?
You know who.
(28:59):
Her body, or women's bodies ina general sense, um, and, and
you know she's, she's very, um,well, she's very interested in,
in, in, in sort of transforminguh, uh, this, and there's a
quote that that she has, that heshe has said, which I think is
very instructive about this.
(29:19):
She said my work has a lot to dowith the complexities of the
whole thing between sex power,aggression.
I'm 70 now.
This was a few years ago.
I'm 70 now and we have all theconstitutions in democratic
countries where men and womenare the same, but they're not.
Why doesn't it work?
Women have to be more likewarriors and fight for it.
(29:40):
I am a fighter.
I hope so.
She has always been like this,but of course the potency of her
work is partly contingent onthe preparedness of people and
audience generally to listen anaudience generally to listen.
Jeppe Curth (30:02):
Okay, so for a collector who is new to her
works, what elements should theylook for to appreciate her
unique style and where can theyfind her works?
Well, her works.
Nicholas Robinson (30:14):
Are, you know , to appreciate her work, or to
get something that one is, youknow, considers to be are.
Are you know, to appreciate her, her work, or to get something
that one is, you know, considersto be a?
You know a really um, stellarexample of of what she does?
You know you want a, you want afigure, and that could be
either a smaller painting, whichprobably would consist of just
a sort of a bust head um withyou, whatever kind of expression
(30:37):
uh, that faces is, is, isexhibiting um, or a larger
painting.
You know would often have oneor more figures in it, set in
this kind of strangely um,dissonant landscape that I
described earlier.
Um, now, of course there's.
You know, if you're going tosort of assess them
(31:00):
qualitatively, you're going tolook at, you know, the quality
of the painting, the, howexpressive, communicative the
figure is or the face is.
You know any painting has abetter or worse demonstration of
how these elements sort ofcohere together in a
compositional sense, in a, in apalette sense, and you know some
(31:22):
of her paintings, I suppose bythese subjective criteria, are
better than others, um, but butyou know this is what you would
look for in in her work.
It would need to contain thesebasic elements in order to be,
you know, a signature thing, asignature painting by her.
And then if you wish to studymore, then, you know, you just
(31:42):
have to resort to, you know,looking online.
There's nice information abouther work on the two gallery
websites I mentioned, maya Rigaand Jocelyn Wolfe.
But if you, if you, you know,look a little more deeply, you
can find some interestinginterviews with little more
deeply, you can find someinteresting interviews with her
on YouTube.
You can find a really nice uhinterview with her on the Cura
(32:04):
magazine website, which is uh,uh, you know, sort of curatorial
um website.
There's a great interview, uh,with Hans Ulrich Obrist uh
website.
And just by, you know, takingthe very basic effort to look
around, you can come across lotsof information where you really
understand what she's about,and you can, of course, see
(32:26):
plenty of examples of herpainting where these themes,
these ideas, are sort of fullyexecuted and obvious.
Jeppe Curth (32:37):
Great, nick.
Well, I think we covered mostanything we forgot, no, I don't
think so.
Nicholas Robinson (32:44):
I think that her work is, you know, I mean we
I can sit here and answer sortof questions all day but it's
the kind of thing that it's thekind of painting that is so
visceral and so raw that youreally just have to look at a
couple of them, and they're socommunicative that it's very
easy to sort of kind ofinstinctively feel where they're
(33:05):
coming from, just from the mostsort of cursory observation of
them.
So I urge people just to dothat and then you know, they
will see that.
You know, this is a very rarekind of painting that very much
comes from this, this, thistrajectory of Munch, uh, that I
mentioned earlier, um, whereshe's really sort of channeling
(33:25):
this very raw psychologicalpower and and absolutely
distilling it and communicatingit as economically and
powerfully as as it's possibleto do in a painting.
Jeppe Curth (33:36):
Thank you, Nick.
Well, I guess that is all forthis time.
I just wanted to once again saythank you, Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (33:43):
Thank you so?
Jeppe Curth (33:43):
much For letting me pick your brain.
Yeah good and thank you to allour listeners.
I think this will be the lastepisode for this year.
Nicholas Robinson (33:53):
Yes.
Jeppe Curth (33:54):
I guess it will, yeah, so all that remains is for
me to wish you all a happyholidays, and I hope you all get
a nice break and enjoy the endof the season, and we are
looking forward to having youback with us early next year bye
.
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