June 10, 2024 • 52 mins
The greatest artist of the Twentieth century and one of the most iconic figures of all time....what if you could own a piece of Pablo Picasso's unique artistry without breaking the bank? That's exactly what we uncover as we embark on an exploration of Picasso's fascinating journey into ceramics. From his iconic Blue and Rose periods to his groundbreaking work in Cubism, we trace the evolution of his art, arriving at 1946, when a visit to a ceramics festival in the south of France ignited his passion for pottery. Discover how Picasso transformed the traditional Madoura Pottery in Villauris into a playground for his innovative spirit.
We reveal Picasso's relentless experimentation and the refining of his process, his shift from decorating pre-existing forms to sculpting his own pieces and the intriguing tension with his dealer, Daniel Kahnweiler. Despite concerns about mass production devaluing his paintings, Picasso's ceramics captured the public's imagination with their blend of traditional utilitarian forms and his signature motifs. These works became accessible to a broader audience, providing a unique intersection between high art and the everyday object.
Thinking about starting your own Picasso ceramics collection? We delve into the market dynamics, offering insights about this developing field, including methodologies of research, typical pricing and details about the wide range of available works. Learn how ceramics offer an effective way to own a piece of Picasso's unrivalled legacy and an entry point into a growing field of interest for sophisticated collectors.
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Jeppe Curth (00:00):
Welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic Art
Partners.
In today's episode, we willexplore the work of one of the
most iconic artists of all times, P pablo Picasso.
Our focus today will be on oneof his lesser-known elements of
his working life his ceramicsworks.
With me, as always, is our artexpert, N nicholas Robinson.
(00:20):
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:32):
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front-page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
(00:56):
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be consideredthoughtful and well informed in
(01:16):
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:28):
Hi Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (01:29):
Hi Jeppe, how are you doing?
Very well, thank you.
How are you today?
Jeppe Curth (01:33):
I'm good.
I'm good, I'm very excitedwe're going to talk about
Picasso today, one of myall-time favourites, I guess for
me it's the most iconic artistin the world.
Nicholas Robinson (01:44):
Yes, I mean his reputation does rather
precede him.
Jeppe Curth (01:49):
Yeah, and I don't think he needs a big
introduction because I thinkmost people know him, but can
you try anyway ?
Nicholas Robinson (01:58):
Asolutely Well.
As I mentioned, he's reallyconsidered, I suppose, the most
iconic artist of all time,certainly of the 20th century.
He was born in the late 19thcentury and started working
beginning at the very turn ofthe 20th century.
(02:19):
His first well-known workscould be considered what's known
as the Blue Period very sombreworks, portraits infused with a
very profound melancholycoinciding with a significant
depression brought about by thedeath, the suicide death, of a
(02:40):
friend of his.
As he came out of thisdepression, the Rose period,
much more cheerful, vibrant,certainly in palette and in tone
, and a group of workscharacterized by portraits of
harlequins, acrobats and variouscarnival performers.
Already, this is just the firstdecade of the 20th century and
(03:02):
we're already seeing greatvariety in his production and
his output.
Later in this decade, he wentinto what became known as his
African period, inspired byethnographic works, african
sculptures and moving into thesort of proto-Cubist works of
(03:23):
Demoiselle d'Avignon from 1907.
At the end of this decade,along with Georges Braque,
invented Cubism, a veryparticular visual representation
of ways of seeing meaning.
Cubism was designed to show howuh an individual object uh
(03:48):
viewed from multiple vantagepoints, how all of those varying
angles could be represented onthe picture plane simultaneously
.
So very complex, very um,highly theoretical way of
painting, um.
That was extremelymisunderstood in the day and
probably to some extent today aswell.
(04:08):
He went on to evolve cubisminto what became known as
synthetic cubism, incorporatingnewspaper fragments into his
works.
So these are really consideredthe first collage elements in
modern art, in any art generally.
He was the inventor ofconstructed sculpture lots of
(04:32):
found objects being accumulatedtogether, which came to be known
as assemblage.
He was a theatre designer,collaborating with Diaghilev in
his famous Ballet Russe.
1920s, characterized by aclassical period and also a time
where his work overlappedclosely with those of the
(04:55):
surrealists.
You know, his place in popularculture is also largely earned
from his reputation, largelyearned from his reputation, his
outsized reputation as thiscultural force, this creative
genius, a mercurial characterwho became fabulously wealthy
and kind of a law unto himself,his complicated relationships
(05:20):
and romantic entanglements withvarious wives, mistresses, and
romantic entanglements withvarious wives, mistresses,
lovers, muses.
The Marie Therese portraits area very famous example of his
work.
Being inspired by a great lovein his life, he famously painted
(05:48):
Guernica.
So, of course, not averse topainting works of extraordinary
psychological intensity,depicting traumatic events drawn
from current affairs and fromlife around, and then even at
the end of his life, hismusketeer paintings from the
1960s.
So this is an artist who'scontinually reinventing himself,
finding new ways to innovatenew modes of expression, and you
(06:11):
know, almost taken for granted,that some of the seminal modes
of production of the 20thcentury have as their genesis
Picasso.
Jeppe Curth (06:21):
Well, I know you can keep on going, but today
we're going to focus on hisceramics.
Of course, there's manydifferent aspects of his output.
Can you take us through hisearly days of his venture into
ceramics and maybe also whatdrew him into this medium?
Nicholas Robinson (06:38):
Yes, yes, of course, as you say, there's a
lot to say about Picasso, andany given category can be can be
um expanded upon in in enormousdetail Uh, but today, as you
say, we'll focus on on hisceramics?
Um, which is a very interestinguh subset of Picasso's working
life?
Um, in 1946, he was 1946, hewas traveling in the south of
(07:16):
France with his lover, françoiseGillot, and she took him to a
ceramics festival.
This was a festival heldannually in the small town of
Villaurice, close to Antibes andCannes, on the south coast of
France, close to Antibes andCannes, on the south coast of
France.
And this had been a traditionalpottery center, probably even
for 2,000 years, a placeproducing out of the local
terracotta wine amphora for theRoman Empire.
(07:39):
And in Vélorice, there was apottery workshop called the
Madura Pottery, owned by the.
The proprietors, george andSuzanne Ramier and Francoise
Gillot, introduced Picasso tothese, to this couple Um.
So Picasso visited their, their, their workshop, and became
(08:00):
enamored of the types of thingsthat they were making, the
simplicity um, and just thesheer novelty of this very kind
of different, humble medium thatto him, represented a departure
from that which he was moreused to doing painting and
sculpting, et cetera.
So he he um, sort of inspiredby what he was witnessing and in
(08:24):
a very sort of relaxed vacation, um induced frame of mind, he
asked to try um working at this,at this medium, modeling some
clay, and became very delightedby the tactile qualities of the
medium and all of thepossibilities that he recognized
that were inherent to it.
(08:45):
So, um, this was his firstexperience with, with um, with
ceramics, his first encounterwith trying them for himself.
And so in 1947, the followingyear, he returned to Madura, and
at this point he entered into aformal arrangement with the
(09:05):
Ramillers to make pottery, in akind of partnership with them.
Jeppe Curth (09:10):
This formal arrangement is quite interesting
.
How did this fit into hisproduction and work life and
what inspired him to embark onworking in this medium?
Nicholas Robinson (09:19):
Well, what inspired him?
I mean, this is an artist whohas been, uh, even at this point
, um was the greatest artist inthe world, not only in the minds
of the intelligentsia, um andthe avant garde, but also
amongst, uh, amongst the commonman, I mean, in popular culture.
(09:42):
Picasso was a household name,and there were not many artists
who were household names Um.
So so you might say thatPicasso was already um sort of
existing in this rarefiedcapacity and was, um, you know,
used to rubbing shoulders with,with extremely wealthy people
(10:05):
who were his patrons andcollectors, and so the sort of
the very high price and relativerarity of his paintings meant
that most people would never beable to afford one or own one.
And so the artist, with hisvery sort of, you know, picasso,
(10:25):
was very aristocratic in hisbearing, but he was also very
sort of populist in a strangekind of way, too contrary, and
he liked the idea of working ina medium that would be more
accessible to the average person, a medium that would be more
(10:46):
accessible to the average person.
These were things that could beproduced en masse and could be
accessible to a much wideraudience.
And at this point in his life,because of the demands of his
very high level painting career.
You know, painting was taking aphysical and emotional toll on
him, and this was a very welcomedeparture to try something else
(11:07):
, and Picasso invariably spenthis summers in the south of
France.
So, as I alluded to a momentago, he was in a much more
relaxed frame of mind, and sothere are very specific sort of
connotations of leisurelinessand pastime associated with his
(11:28):
embracing of this medium.
To begin with, he had noexperience at all of making
ceramics, and so he wanted tofamiliarize himself with the
methods that were necessary tomake successful works in the
medium.
So, as an example, early on hewas extremely surprised by the
(11:52):
way that the colour of theglazes and the transparency of
the different glazes wouldrespond to being fired in the
kiln and the way these coloursand glazes would change.
But he became extremelycommitted, largely through a
sort of trial and error, toevolving this process and slowly
(12:12):
over time as he practiced, hebecame very adept at selecting
all of these correct glazes andquantities and procedures in
order to achieve the verysingular visions that he had for
each piece.
So that was I guess that's justa small um diversion about his,
his process there, um, but theceramics, fundamentally, were
(12:34):
made in a few differing ways.
Um, to begin with, there were,you know, rows and rows of sort
of standardized forms in theworkshop.
The Ramillers at Madura wereproducing bowls and vases and
pictures and various simple, youknow, folk shapes that had a
(12:55):
largely utilitarian purpose.
So the first thing that hewould do other than practicing a
little bit with molding it inhis hands, he also took these
pre-existing forms and hepainted them, so basically
taking shapes that were therealready and essentially
(13:16):
decorating them.
And then the next thing that hedid after that would be to
model and sculpt something, andthen he would paint and glaze it
.
And then the artisans of Madurawould take this form, which I
suppose ostensibly became aprototype, and they would
(13:38):
painstakingly recreate forproduction, so working from a
unique work and copying it sothat it could be produced en
masse in editions of varyingsizes.
Um and the additions that wereproduced um were uh, well, the
small, the smallest of which wasan edition of 25 and the
(14:01):
largest of which uh was 500,with various increments in
between, including 100, 200, 300, etc.
So this was extremely appealingto him that he could make these
things that could then be sold.
Maybe it's a little bit of astretch to call them sort of
(14:23):
souvenirs for tourists, but henonetheless realized that
pottery could be produced on ascale that his paintings could
not, and in the 1950s and 60sthese pieces typically had a
price of around of what would bethe equivalent of around $100
per piece in today's money, ofwhat would be the equivalent of
(14:46):
around $100 per piece in today'smoney.
So his ceramic series were farmore financially accessible than
all of his other artworks andanything he had made up to this
point.
And he also enjoyed the factthat there was a very
utilitarian nature to thepottery, which he also
understood, that made the artform much more appealing to the
general public, maybe who wouldnot understand the appeal of an
(15:09):
abstract painting or thecomplexities of one of his
portraits or Cubist paintings,but who could nonetheless fully
appreciate the value of abeautifully decorated plate or
picture.
And then the other main methodthat Picasso utilized in Mador
was when he created originalimages in dry clay molds.
(15:30):
So there would be these sort ofpieces of dried clay and
Picasso would engrave or etch orkind of carve out a design in
these, in these um molds, um,and then, uh, they, these
(15:51):
designs would then betransferred onto fresh uh wet
clay um, where it would ofcourse appear as a mirror image
or a very uh precise reversal ofhis marks Um, and these works
uh carry, um uh a specific mark,uh imprint, original to Picasso
.
So, anyway, there's various uhadditions that that he made, and
from starting in 1946 andfinishing in 1971, um, there are
(16:17):
various signatures, stamps,markings that attest to a
particular mold shape, aparticular design, different
serial numbers, et cetera.
It's possible to researchonline to find pretty
comprehensive guides to readingthese marks, so we won't go into
(16:38):
too many details about those.
So, really, to summarize, itwas a thing that Picasso could
do sort of in his holiday sparetime, if you like that he became
very passionate about.
He made many unique works aswell during these years, and the
(16:58):
unique works became keepsakesfor him.
They weren't sort of tradedcommercially like his paintings,
but they had a degree ofpreciousness.
He would retain them forhimself, pieces that he loved.
He would gift them to hisfamily and friends, and also to
the Ramillers, his collaboratorsand who also became his friends
(17:19):
Um.
So so there's this real passionproject with making these Um
and, I think, also a slightlycontrarian attitude to the art
world, um, he became very wellaware that there were some risks
attached to working in ceramics, to making these additions.
(17:39):
His dealer of the time, thefamous Parisian Daniel
Kahnweiler.
He was vehement that Picassoshould not do this and very,
very opposed to this shift inmedium, do this Um, and very,
very opposed to this shift inmedium he was.
He was absolutely convincedthat the prolificacy um of of
(17:59):
these items, these objects,would would completely erode
Picasso's existing market, wouldum sort of debase and devalue
uh the prices, the values thathis um, his paintings, uh
paintings, had already accrued.
So you know, this was somethingthat Picasso was really excited
(18:19):
to do for a number of reasons.
Jeppe Curth (18:24):
Okay, so this is how he made the ceramics and
also the reason for theproduction, but what did he make
exactly, and did his work inthis medium follow or reflect
the kinds of things he is makingin his painting or sculpture
works?
Nicholas Robinson (18:40):
Well, I mean, we have to remember that in
common to all of these thingsproduced by Picasso is Picasso
himself, and obviously therewere a number of motifs that
would recur throughout Picasso'sworking life, irrespective of
the medium in which he wasworking at any given time.
So, with his ceramics, we cansee that they are a really a
(19:05):
fascinating blend of traditionalpottery but also this kind of,
you know, simple, localvernacular, melded to his unique
artistic vision.
Um, some, some of the thingswere inspired by Spanish folk
ceramics, which actuallyactually placed a much higher
emphasis on the decoration ofthe pieces than than actually
(19:29):
the quality of the materials orthe perfection of the finished
object itself, and so the formsand the motifs were, uh,
inspired by folk ceramics, uh,the visual vernacular of Spanish
folk ceramics, and the motifsincluded faces, um, known as the
visage works, uh, bullfighters,fish goats, books, bullfighters
(19:59):
, fish, goats, other animals, Imean.
Picasso was famed for his loveof animals.
I think, as I mentioned, he'sgot to a point where he was
somewhat jaded, and his dealingswith various protagonists of
the art world, wealthycollectors, demanding sort of
entitled people over many yearshad led him to become somewhat
suspicious of people and humannature, and he found a certain
(20:23):
kind of escape and simplicity inhis relationship with animals.
So this recurs a lot A sunmotif, a sun god, and then
oftentimes a sort of free formof paintings and patterns that
resemble sort of feathers,different kinds of brushstrokes,
where he's really just makingabstract compositions with color
(20:43):
and sometimes with incisedforms, um, and then I guess, the
the.
The other very popular categoryum category is owls, and in
addition to his general love ofanimals, picasso had a
particular fondness for owls.
In the mid-1940s, working inMaduro, they came across an owl
(21:08):
who had become injured, its legand its claw was damaged, and
they took it upon themselves toto bandage the owl's injury, to
take care of it, and theyeventually adopted the owl as a
pet.
So the owl is is is perhaps themost recurring motif um in
(21:29):
Picasso's ceramics and and it'salmost a category unto itself.
And so he had these uhdifferent painterly motifs and
they were recreated on um thingsas various as plates and bowls
Um.
But as his um, as his competenceuh progressed, progressed and
(21:51):
developed, developed, he came toproduce much more complex forms
, pictures and vases withdifferent kinds of handles that
added a great deal to their sortof sinuous sculptural qualities
and, at their sort of apogee,these handles became
(22:13):
incorporated in sort ofbiomorphic or zoomorphic forms,
um, so that, let's say, thehandles would be a surrogate for
, uh, the limbs of a figure thathe was depicting with this
vessel, um, maybe the sort ofattenuated neck of a particular
(22:36):
picture form, uh would becomethe neck of a bird, um.
And so as his uh experience withceramics developed, um, he
increasingly experimented,experimented with the way uh,
the three-dimensional surface ofthe form could actually change
the perception of thetwo-dimensional surface of the
form, could actually change theperception of the
two-dimensional, two-dimensionalpatterns and designs that he
(22:59):
was painting on the surface.
So the different shadows,distortions, curvatures, um
would, it would would work, uh,with a particular synergy with
the, with the, with thepaintings on the surface that
became, you know, increasinglydesired features that both sort
of accentuated the form and thepainting itself.
Jeppe Curth (23:22):
So he made many of the same things in ceramics as
he did in the paintings,absolutely.
Nicholas Robinson (23:27):
I mean, like I said, the main sort of thrust,
the main red thread here isPicasso himself.
And Picasso is somebody whoturned his hand to creating in
all its forms all the time.
Um, we've seen his innovationsin painting.
We've seen how he incorporatedcollage into painting for the
(23:49):
first time.
We've seen how he assembledfound objects into sculpture
assemblage.
This is somebody who had aninstinctive understanding for
form and line and was able towork with, you know, extreme
instinct and economy in order tomake something out of anything
(24:12):
or something even out of nothing.
So when we look at Picasso'sceramics, we can see absolutely
the same guiding hand, the sameimpetus, the same instinct,
talent, creativity as we see inany other media that he produced
.
Jeppe Curth (24:30):
Okay, so what was it that prompted us to get
involved with these Picassoceramics works?
Nicholas Robinson (24:35):
looking and so, when you see this, humility
of object, this earthy material,and you see it elevated with
(24:57):
such deft markings.
They're extremely, extremelydesirable, seductive objects
with a incredible inherentbeauty.
And I think that, um, you know,when you, when you consider
that he was combining, sculptingthe form, he was combining this
with etching and engravingdesigns, he was utilising
(25:21):
painting and glazing and fusingall of his ideologies about
making work into this medium, Ithink that it's reasonable to
consider these as a sort of atotal artwork.
Um, where he is, he is, um, youknow, he is fusing all of these
techniques into one object andand simultaneously fostering,
(25:45):
you know, an entirely newdirection for this ancient
medium, for ceramic.
I mean, ceramics have beencommon to humanity for as long
as anything else that humanityhas made for itself to use
hybrid physicality, um, andelevating it so that it is, it's
a picture, but it's also asculpture and it's also a
(26:17):
painting, and it is all of thesethings in one object.
You know nothing, uh, aboutthis, um, uh, these very humble
objects is, in fact, humble, sothey are sort of pleasingly
deceptive in this way.
So that's really the firstthing, and then the second thing
that prompted us to really getinvolved was the fact that they
(26:41):
seemed to be extremelyaffordable relative to other
things that one could acquirefor similar amounts of money,
certainly by Picasso and also byother very noted, highly
regarded, reputable artists ofthe 20th century.
There appeared to be asignificant undervaluing of
(27:06):
Picasso ceramics.
Jeppe Curth (27:12):
Thank you, nick.
So for this episode we havetried to put in some facts
together about Picasso.
Could you please give it a go?
Nicholas Robinson (27:24):
Yes, absolutely.
I guess this sort of speaks toyou know, you asked what
prompted us to get involved andit's very easy for me to say,
you know they seem undervalued,but I guess I guess this uh,
this research uh, and this data,um underscores one of the key
reasons why we believe that tobe the case.
So these are the, these are thestatistics that we have put
(27:48):
together to illustrate thispoint Um.
So during Picasso's lifetime,um illustrate this point Um.
So during Picasso's lifetime,um, and his working life spanned
from 1900 more or less until1973.
So during this lifetime, hemade 13,500 paintings, uh, the
record price for which is$179,500,000.
(28:11):
And he made 12,000 drawings,the record price for which for
one of which is $14 million.
Um, he made 180,000 addition toprints, the record price for
which is $5.2 million.
And um, when we say in additionto prints, we talk about his,
(28:31):
about his lithographs, hisengravings, his etchings.
All of these would beconsidered an edition of print,
any image that he made thatcould be then reproduced.
So these are the numbersattached to.
These are the more commonlyassociated things with Picasso.
(28:53):
But in his ceramic work, picassomade only 4,000 unique ceramic
works, and a unique work meanssomething that Picasso made with
his own hand and of which thereexists only one.
So there's 4,000 of these andthe record price is 3.9 million.
(29:14):
And he made 120,000 editionceramics, the record for which
is 1.9 million, and between 1946and 71, picasso designed 633
(29:39):
different ceramic editions,additions, and that may include,
for example, there's a, there'sa, a, a body form that he
shaped, um, which is a uh, uh,uh.
It's a vase, has a very broadfoot that kind of looks like,
you know, bird feet, or can be asort of a stylized stand in for
bird feet, and the sort ofbulbous body, uh, with a certain
shape, uh, of the neck, um issomething that he used, uh to to
(30:01):
paint on to depict an owl, andhe used this standardized owl
form, if we can call it that,and he painted numerous
different designs on this.
So there are several differentowls, all of which have the same
fundamental body shape, butdifferent, different paintings
to depict the owl.
So so these permutations andcombination combinations would
(30:21):
also be in this 120 000 quantityof addition ceramics so picasso
made 4000 unique ceramic works,which is less than the output
number of his other medias.
Jeppe Curth (30:39):
Right, why is it, do you think, that they gain so
much in popularity?
Nicholas Robinson (30:45):
Well, I think that well, I mean, they're
Picassos and obviously it's.
The Picasso market in all itsits forms is really an industry
unto itself.
There are so many examples thathave been bought and sold
consistently for decades, sothey form a very
(31:08):
well-established market.
They sell certainly as well inthe prints.
Uh, you know, multiple examplesof these works sell all the
time.
So over time it's very possibleto collate a set of data and a
sort of comprehensive overviewas to how any one given example
(31:30):
has traded.
So not only do we have atrajectory of Picasso's price
and value performance as it, asit unfolds over time, um, we see
all of these things um forminga subset of the overall art
market, to the extent that thePicasso market often is
(31:52):
considered somewhat of abellwether or barometer for the
performance of the art market asa whole.
So it's a little bit like, youknow, in an art sense, the gold
standard.
So that's one reason why it's avery sort of sensible, safe,
secure thing to be involved inAll of the data that we can rely
(32:15):
upon to know what it is we'regetting involved with.
And then the the sort of secondmain thing is the fact that his
ceramics have been perceivedrather differently than these
other aspects of his output.
And when you know, you considerall of the points that we've
made up to now in this, in thisbroadcast, it starts to make
(32:40):
less and less sense why theceramics would be sort of
relegated to a lesser tier ofvalue and a lesser tier of
collecting desirability, um.
And that is changing Um,firstly, because of course there
are lots of people thatrecognize the opportunity with
something that has been um, notappreciated and therefore valued
(33:06):
in the way that they think itshould have been.
Um.
But more importantly, there'sbeen a very key shift in the
perception of materiality andhow important materiality is in
artistic production.
You know there used to be a view, a prevailing opinion, that
considered painting to be thevery sort of apogée of artistic
(33:31):
output.
It was the highest rankingthing in all the echelons of art
.
Alongside that you would havesculpture and then you would
have drawings and prints.
And in recent years photographyhas inserted itself into this
canon.
And again, you know, thingslike uniqueness, edition, size,
(33:55):
whatever has a bearing on, onprice and value, um.
But traditionally ceramics wasnot considered as an artistic
medium or a medium of high artat all.
It was something that wasassociated with craft, with
hobbies, with pastimes, withhobbies with pastimes, um, it
was along with ceramics, uh, andtextiles and whatever else, um,
(34:25):
it was something that that youknow, that perhaps women did on
on the weekend, um, and so itsuffered a lot, um, by these
sorts of, um, pejorativeconnotations.
So, as we look at these thingstoday, you know we can see a lot
of work in the modern andcontemporary art field that once
upon a time used to suffer byits association with these
(34:47):
lesser materials.
Nowadays, what we do is weinterrog, interrogate the object
, we interrogate the quality,the originality, the
intentionality of the maker, howthat maker and their work fits
into their, uh, their sort ofmilieu, um, and so the the fact
(35:09):
that something is sort of painton canvas or paint on clay
matters enormously less than itused to, and that also creates
obviously a very interestingthing for us to uh investigate
further, are they today seen asa more stable thing in a blue
chip category?
Well, yes, I mean, I thinkthey're, they're evolving into
(35:30):
that.
Um, I still believe that theirprices are so much less than
some of the other things, uh,and yet, when you you know
objectively, when you assessthem just as pure objects on
their own artistic merits, this,this makes no sense.
Um, we can see, in the last fewyears there have been um some
(35:51):
designated auctions, um solelyfor Picasso ceramics.
It used to be that you wouldhave painting auctions, you
would have a modern art auction,a contemporary art auction, you
would have print auctions.
Now there are entire auctionsuh devoted to to Picasso
ceramics.
So you can see that there is umuh, an increasingly established
(36:12):
subset of the market that isdevoted to this.
So that obviously indicates anevolving category that some of
the major industry protagonistsare devoting time and resources
to.
So there's a reason why they dothat because it's a growth
field, and I think that it's anarea that has a great deal of
(36:37):
appeal because it stillfunctions on multiple levels,
and by that I mean there are.
There's a great variety inprice and aesthetic, which
creates many um different entrypoints financially to for people
to be, to be able to getinvolved in it and to be able to
(36:57):
collect at you know, whateverlevel their budgets allow for.
Jeppe Curth (37:04):
Thank you, Nick.
Well, we have acquired a largenumber of Picasso ceramics over
the recent year and we alsoplaced numbers of important
works in collections.
When we have done that, we havealso presented the collectors
with quite a comprehensive dataset and report.
Could you maybe try to explainthe process to lead us to
(37:26):
recommending sources and buyingthese ceramic works?
Nicholas Robinson (37:30):
Yes, well, obviously, I've just mentioned
the reasons that prompted us tostart looking into this
originally.
The reasons that prompted us tostart looking into this
originally, um, and I, and Ithink a lot of the works that
we've been involved with, Ishould clarify, have been, have
been unique works which, whichyou know for, for the absence of
doubt is, is a is a Picassoartwork, sculpted and painted
(37:54):
artwork, that that just happensto be made from clay.
So so, obviously, that thatjust happens to be made from
clay.
So so, obviously, um, there's acertain preciousness in any
unique thing that comes from thehand of Picasso.
So that was the first thing,that that we understood that to
get a, a unique Picasso, in anyother media, um would be much
(38:19):
more expensive by a factor ofmany times, and so there was a
sense of opportunity, firstly,um that they were so much
cheaper relative to otherPicasso works, um, or indeed
other works by artists of asimilarly high status, um, so,
so the fact that that these werePicasso works was tremendously
(38:42):
attractive to us, of course, um,and when we started to try and
think about them in thiscontextual way, um vis-a-vis
other things in the market, itwas not unreasonable, or at
least we thought it was notunreasonable to assume that
these things would have greaterprice equivalency with similar
(39:05):
or related things in the future.
Um.
So once, once we come to thatconclusion that that we were
comfortable with, confident withum uh, enabling us to sort of
move, move forward with, we lookat other things like the
addition size, which of coursespeaks to scarcity.
(39:28):
It's obviously somewhat of aself-explanatory thing that
something that exists inaddition of 25 would invariably
have greater value thansomething that exists in
addition of 500, where there are499 other examples.
(39:52):
And then we get into things likethe complexity of form.
When Picasso, his methodologyand his technique and his
ability, um, we can seeincreased complexity, we can see
an increased synergy betweenthe sculpted form and the
(40:12):
painted surface working togetherto create an overall design um
of incredible sophistication.
Um.
So something that has thoseattributes would likely um have
greater value than uh.
Simply a plate with a heavilystylized sort of cursory graphic
(40:33):
of a fish.
Um, you know there's one is isa much more developed artwork
than another Um.
And then obviously we start tolook at things like the marks
that I explained, um, the stampsand signature, and various
marks and combinations of marksthat tell us when something was
(40:54):
made um and authenticates it Um,and I think it's.
It's also important to note thatyou know, let's say you have an
, a 500 numbered edition of a ofa Picasso ceramic.
It is not the case that theworkshop simply knocked out 500
of these things and put them ona shelf to gather dust until
(41:15):
somebody stumbled in to buy oneUm, so, uh, it is the case that
number one of 500 can be many,many years older than number 450
of the same design.
So you know, you have, you haveum, different values um, within
(41:36):
, like essentially the same, thesame object, or the same set of
objects Um.
And then, along with that, wehave things like condition,
which you know, where weinvestigate the patina, we
investigate whether the objectis and and, and I should say
that these objects, you knowthere's not a, there's not such
(41:58):
a preciousness to the objectthemselves.
There's a real inherentearthiness in the materiality.
There are naturally occurringflaws and you know sort of
accidents that happen in the, inthe firing.
These are not condition issues,these are sort of innate to the
materiality and to the process.
Um, things that I'm talkingabout are perhaps in unglazed or
(42:19):
biscuit, finished works, maybethere's an accumulation of
patina from uh oil, frompeople's hands and fingers,
handling them over time, whethersome of the glazes have been
rubbed off.
You know, all of these thingscan be inspected and sort of
(42:41):
attested to and have a bearingon the value.
So this is the other thing thatwe look at.
You know, after we examine theform and we decide if the sort,
we can, you know, validate theobject and determine if it's, if
(43:02):
its condition is stable andgood enough to merit the, the
price that's being asked for itit was this that determined our
decision to commit time andresource to get involved in the
piqueso ceramic work.
I mean all of these factorsreally, um, where, where we
could see there was, there was,you know, a real merit to, to,
to, to embracing it as as a partof our practice, um, something
(43:26):
we could be passionate about,and also that we could believe
in um from a very uh rational umset of criteria and perspective
.
Um, but I think, I think reallythere's also a certain you know
, we've been doing this for along time.
We've seen lots of differentthings come and go.
We've seen um trends evolve anddevelop and stay the course,
(43:48):
and you know nothing aboutPicasso is transient or
ephemeral Um and and and and.
When there's an entire field ofPicasso productivity that that
feels like it has a lot ofpotential, then there's there's
a sort of an instinctivecomponent to feeling this and
following this In.
(44:10):
In recent years we've seen youknow I mentioned that Picasso
kept a lot of the uniqueceramics for himself, gave them
to family and friends.
We gave many of them to hisdaughter, marina Picasso.
Um, and there were there havebeen some auction sales of works
from her collection.
So we've got we've got uniquePicasso works and unique Picasso
(44:31):
works that have a uh, aprovenance that includes Pablo
Picasso and then a directlineage to his daughter.
I mean, this is a, this is acompelling object with a
fantastic history.
Um, so it was, you know, thingslike this opportunity or these
opportunities, um, allied withthe other information that we
(44:54):
were evaluating, that thatreally convinced us that, that
this was something that wereally, really wanted to to
become involved with.
Jeppe Curth (45:09):
So, nick, what are the prices on these Picasso
ceramics works?
I know it's a big variety ofsizes and unique and not unique,
but if we take like a bigedition, 500 edition works and
what would the price be on this?
Nicholas Robinson (45:24):
uh, it's a good question.
Uh, it's a little bit likeasking how long is a piece of
string, um, but uh, I'll try andanswer.
Um, there are, there are verymany, as I mentioned, there's
more than 600 different uhceramic 633.
And some of them are relativelyunimpressive, if I may say, and
(45:46):
some of them are magnificent, Isuppose you could say.
If we boil down the question tothe basics, the cheapest
Picasso ceramic that one couldfeasibly buy is a few thousand
dollars, somewhere under $5,000.
Um, it wasn't so long ago thatone could get a very simple
(46:07):
little vase or plate, quitebasic and not hugely exciting,
but one could still get this for1,500, $2,000 euros.
Um, perhaps that's slightlyambitious.
Now.
The prices continue to changeand grow all the time, um, and
you know it's still not a fullymature market, so it's evolving.
(46:30):
Um, so this would be, I suppose, the entry point.
Um, but you know, not alladditions of 500 works were
created equally either, toanswer your other question.
So you know, as an example,there are some of the owls that
were produced in editions of 500, you know, they can be 50,
(46:51):
$60,000, where a small plate,also from an edition of 500
could be maybe $6,000.
So again, it depends on howcaptivating, how enticing the
imagery, how sought after itbecomes.
You know a lot of Picassocollectors ceramic collectors
(47:11):
become very knowledgeable as tothe different.
You know times that he spent inValois and the relationships
that he was in the vagaries ofhis life and some of these works
.
You know times that he spent inValois and the relationships
that he was in the vagaries ofhis life and some of these works
.
You know they have particularanecdotes attached to them that
enhance their legend.
Um so so you know the.
The.
The prices can vary accordingly, um, depending on the renown
(47:35):
that these particular objectshave in the eyes of the market.
You can spend up to.
You know you can spend up tothree or four hundred thousand
dollars on an edition work ifit's one of 25, for instance.
Jeppe Curth (47:51):
So maybe a better question would be what kind of
work would be good to get?
Maybe also, what kind of workwould you get?
Nicholas Robinson (48:00):
Well, that's a really good question.
I think really the guidingprinciple for that kind of
question is, you know, buy thebest thing that you can.
And as sort of throw away acomment as that is, I can
qualify that by saying that ifyou can get something that's
unique, then that, of course,qualitatively is is a meaningful
(48:23):
thing unto itself, almostirrespective of of what it looks
like.
Um, so that's that's the firstthing.
Um, then I think that you know,one should look to the things
that maybe one can feel, uh,picasso's real love in making,
and you know it's easy to to.
To refer back to the owls, Ireally have a strong uh
(48:46):
appreciation for those.
It feels like he, he, there's,there's a very sort of tender,
loving quality in the way thatthey are made and depicted, um,
the sweetness to them, if youlike.
Um, that I think is isfantastic.
Um, and they also, you know,they have that combination of
form and painted surface thatreally works well together.
(49:06):
I would much rather have avessel, um like a vase or a
picture, because it has acertain sculptural
three-dimensionality.
Um, that I suppose is is betterthan a plate, which is just
essentially a flat surface.
So, you know, you can sort ofsee for yourself, which are
(49:27):
perhaps a little more obviouslyappealing than others.
Jeppe Curth (49:32):
Thanks, Nick, and for anybody that maybe are new
to Picasso ceramic works whereto start exploring his work and
where can you buy them?
Nicholas Robinson (49:44):
you can buy them quite easily.
I mean you can look on onlineand you can find them there in
all the usual art marketplacevenues.
Christie's, as I mentioned, hasdesignated Picasso ceramic
auctions with somewhat regularly.
So one just has to log on totheir website and one can look
(50:10):
at all of the catalogs online,the various essays that are
produced to support the moresignificant pieces.
You can type in the name of apiece if you see something you
like, also in the Christie'ssearch box, and it will bring up
other examples that Christie'sthemselves have sold and the
prices that they have achieved.
(50:32):
Sotheby's.
You can also do this forPicasso ceramics or for any
artwork for that matter.
So even if you don't haveexpensive subscriptions to
different search databases, youcan use the online resources of
the auction houses to do some ofthis cursory research yourself.
And I think the other thingthat I think is very interesting
(50:54):
about Picasso's work.
I mean you can maybe buy adrawing let's say for $50,000, a
Picasso drawing.
You can actually get quite anice number of ceramics for that
same amount of money.
So it would actually bepossible to get some diversity
in Picasso's range of motifs sothat you could in fact develop
(51:19):
somewhat of a coherent, cohesivemini collection of Picasso's,
whereby you would end up withmultiple things instead of just
one thing for that same same sumof money.
Jeppe Curth (51:32):
Thank you, nick.
Normally now I will.
I would ask you if you haveanything to add, but I think we
have already given a verycomprehensive insight on the
Picasso ceramics, so I don'twant to.
I want to spare you today andjust thank you for sharing all
your knowledge once again,thanks, jeppe.
Nicholas Robinson (51:50):
It's really a pleasure.
It's a really interesting fieldand I really can't recommend it
highly enough.
Jeppe Curth (51:56):
So if you have any questions, you want to know more
about picasso, you can alwaysreach us on info at nordic art
partnerscom and hope to hear youback soon, thanks bye.
Welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic Art
Partners.
In today's episode, we willexplore the work of one of the
most iconic artists of all times, P pablo Picasso.
Our focus today will be on oneof his lesser-known elements of
his working life his ceramicsworks.
With me, as always, is our artexpert, N nicholas Robinson.
(00:20):
Let's get started.
Nicholas Robinson (00:32):
We've all heard about it.
Sometimes it's front-page newsImportant works of art are being
sold for incredible sums ofmoney.
But can you get involved andbecome a part of the exclusive
club yourself, and how do youget started while avoiding
buying the wrong things?
That's exactly what thispodcast is about.
This is the Collector's Edgefrom Nordic Art Partners, a
(00:56):
podcast for those of youinterested in the mechanics of
the art industry, want adviceabout putting money into art, or
simply want to buy somethingfor your walls, to beautify your
surroundings.
Whatever your objectives, it ispossible to put money into art
wisely, to be consideredthoughtful and well informed in
(01:16):
your choices and actions.
Welcome to the art ofcollecting with an eye for
curated beauty and practicalvalue.
Jeppe Curth (01:28):
Hi Nick.
Nicholas Robinson (01:29):
Hi Jeppe, how are you doing?
Very well, thank you.
How are you today?
Jeppe Curth (01:33):
I'm good.
I'm good, I'm very excitedwe're going to talk about
Picasso today, one of myall-time favourites, I guess for
me it's the most iconic artistin the world.
Nicholas Robinson (01:44):
Yes, I mean his reputation does rather
precede him.
Jeppe Curth (01:49):
Yeah, and I don't think he needs a big
introduction because I thinkmost people know him, but can
you try anyway ?
Nicholas Robinson (01:58):
Asolutely Well.
As I mentioned, he's reallyconsidered, I suppose, the most
iconic artist of all time,certainly of the 20th century.
He was born in the late 19thcentury and started working
beginning at the very turn ofthe 20th century.
(02:19):
His first well-known workscould be considered what's known
as the Blue Period very sombreworks, portraits infused with a
very profound melancholycoinciding with a significant
depression brought about by thedeath, the suicide death, of a
(02:40):
friend of his.
As he came out of thisdepression, the Rose period,
much more cheerful, vibrant,certainly in palette and in tone
, and a group of workscharacterized by portraits of
harlequins, acrobats and variouscarnival performers.
Already, this is just the firstdecade of the 20th century and
(03:02):
we're already seeing greatvariety in his production and
his output.
Later in this decade, he wentinto what became known as his
African period, inspired byethnographic works, african
sculptures and moving into thesort of proto-Cubist works of
(03:23):
Demoiselle d'Avignon from 1907.
At the end of this decade,along with Georges Braque,
invented Cubism, a veryparticular visual representation
of ways of seeing meaning.
Cubism was designed to show howuh an individual object uh
(03:48):
viewed from multiple vantagepoints, how all of those varying
angles could be represented onthe picture plane simultaneously
.
So very complex, very um,highly theoretical way of
painting, um.
That was extremelymisunderstood in the day and
probably to some extent today aswell.
(04:08):
He went on to evolve cubisminto what became known as
synthetic cubism, incorporatingnewspaper fragments into his
works.
So these are really consideredthe first collage elements in
modern art, in any art generally.
He was the inventor ofconstructed sculpture lots of
(04:32):
found objects being accumulatedtogether, which came to be known
as assemblage.
He was a theatre designer,collaborating with Diaghilev in
his famous Ballet Russe.
1920s, characterized by aclassical period and also a time
where his work overlappedclosely with those of the
(04:55):
surrealists.
You know, his place in popularculture is also largely earned
from his reputation, largelyearned from his reputation, his
outsized reputation as thiscultural force, this creative
genius, a mercurial characterwho became fabulously wealthy
and kind of a law unto himself,his complicated relationships
(05:20):
and romantic entanglements withvarious wives, mistresses, and
romantic entanglements withvarious wives, mistresses,
lovers, muses.
The Marie Therese portraits area very famous example of his
work.
Being inspired by a great lovein his life, he famously painted
(05:48):
Guernica.
So, of course, not averse topainting works of extraordinary
psychological intensity,depicting traumatic events drawn
from current affairs and fromlife around, and then even at
the end of his life, hismusketeer paintings from the
1960s.
So this is an artist who'scontinually reinventing himself,
finding new ways to innovatenew modes of expression, and you
(06:11):
know, almost taken for granted,that some of the seminal modes
of production of the 20thcentury have as their genesis
Picasso.
Jeppe Curth (06:21):
Well, I know you can keep on going, but today
we're going to focus on hisceramics.
Of course, there's manydifferent aspects of his output.
Can you take us through hisearly days of his venture into
ceramics and maybe also whatdrew him into this medium?
Nicholas Robinson (06:38):
Yes, yes, of course, as you say, there's a
lot to say about Picasso, andany given category can be can be
um expanded upon in in enormousdetail Uh, but today, as you
say, we'll focus on on hisceramics?
Um, which is a very interestinguh subset of Picasso's working
life?
Um, in 1946, he was 1946, hewas traveling in the south of
(07:16):
France with his lover, françoiseGillot, and she took him to a
ceramics festival.
This was a festival heldannually in the small town of
Villaurice, close to Antibes andCannes, on the south coast of
France, close to Antibes andCannes, on the south coast of
France.
And this had been a traditionalpottery center, probably even
for 2,000 years, a placeproducing out of the local
terracotta wine amphora for theRoman Empire.
(07:39):
And in Vélorice, there was apottery workshop called the
Madura Pottery, owned by the.
The proprietors, george andSuzanne Ramier and Francoise
Gillot, introduced Picasso tothese, to this couple Um.
So Picasso visited their, their, their workshop, and became
(08:00):
enamored of the types of thingsthat they were making, the
simplicity um, and just thesheer novelty of this very kind
of different, humble medium thatto him, represented a departure
from that which he was moreused to doing painting and
sculpting, et cetera.
So he he um, sort of inspiredby what he was witnessing and in
(08:24):
a very sort of relaxed vacation, um induced frame of mind, he
asked to try um working at this,at this medium, modeling some
clay, and became very delightedby the tactile qualities of the
medium and all of thepossibilities that he recognized
that were inherent to it.
(08:45):
So, um, this was his firstexperience with, with um, with
ceramics, his first encounterwith trying them for himself.
And so in 1947, the followingyear, he returned to Madura, and
at this point he entered into aformal arrangement with the
(09:05):
Ramillers to make pottery, in akind of partnership with them.
Jeppe Curth (09:10):
This formal arrangement is quite interesting
.
How did this fit into hisproduction and work life and
what inspired him to embark onworking in this medium?
Nicholas Robinson (09:19):
Well, what inspired him?
I mean, this is an artist whohas been, uh, even at this point
, um was the greatest artist inthe world, not only in the minds
of the intelligentsia, um andthe avant garde, but also
amongst, uh, amongst the commonman, I mean, in popular culture.
(09:42):
Picasso was a household name,and there were not many artists
who were household names Um.
So so you might say thatPicasso was already um sort of
existing in this rarefiedcapacity and was, um, you know,
used to rubbing shoulders with,with extremely wealthy people
(10:05):
who were his patrons andcollectors, and so the sort of
the very high price and relativerarity of his paintings meant
that most people would never beable to afford one or own one.
And so the artist, with hisvery sort of, you know, picasso,
(10:25):
was very aristocratic in hisbearing, but he was also very
sort of populist in a strangekind of way, too contrary, and
he liked the idea of working ina medium that would be more
accessible to the average person, a medium that would be more
(10:46):
accessible to the average person.
These were things that could beproduced en masse and could be
accessible to a much wideraudience.
And at this point in his life,because of the demands of his
very high level painting career.
You know, painting was taking aphysical and emotional toll on
him, and this was a very welcomedeparture to try something else
(11:07):
, and Picasso invariably spenthis summers in the south of
France.
So, as I alluded to a momentago, he was in a much more
relaxed frame of mind, and sothere are very specific sort of
connotations of leisurelinessand pastime associated with his
(11:28):
embracing of this medium.
To begin with, he had noexperience at all of making
ceramics, and so he wanted tofamiliarize himself with the
methods that were necessary tomake successful works in the
medium.
So, as an example, early on hewas extremely surprised by the
(11:52):
way that the colour of theglazes and the transparency of
the different glazes wouldrespond to being fired in the
kiln and the way these coloursand glazes would change.
But he became extremelycommitted, largely through a
sort of trial and error, toevolving this process and slowly
(12:12):
over time as he practiced, hebecame very adept at selecting
all of these correct glazes andquantities and procedures in
order to achieve the verysingular visions that he had for
each piece.
So that was I guess that's justa small um diversion about his,
his process there, um, but theceramics, fundamentally, were
(12:34):
made in a few differing ways.
Um, to begin with, there were,you know, rows and rows of sort
of standardized forms in theworkshop.
The Ramillers at Madura wereproducing bowls and vases and
pictures and various simple, youknow, folk shapes that had a
(12:55):
largely utilitarian purpose.
So the first thing that hewould do other than practicing a
little bit with molding it inhis hands, he also took these
pre-existing forms and hepainted them, so basically
taking shapes that were therealready and essentially
(13:16):
decorating them.
And then the next thing that hedid after that would be to
model and sculpt something, andthen he would paint and glaze it
.
And then the artisans of Madurawould take this form, which I
suppose ostensibly became aprototype, and they would
(13:38):
painstakingly recreate forproduction, so working from a
unique work and copying it sothat it could be produced en
masse in editions of varyingsizes.
Um and the additions that wereproduced um were uh, well, the
small, the smallest of which wasan edition of 25 and the
(14:01):
largest of which uh was 500,with various increments in
between, including 100, 200, 300, etc.
So this was extremely appealingto him that he could make these
things that could then be sold.
Maybe it's a little bit of astretch to call them sort of
(14:23):
souvenirs for tourists, but henonetheless realized that
pottery could be produced on ascale that his paintings could
not, and in the 1950s and 60sthese pieces typically had a
price of around of what would bethe equivalent of around $100
per piece in today's money, ofwhat would be the equivalent of
(14:46):
around $100 per piece in today'smoney.
So his ceramic series were farmore financially accessible than
all of his other artworks andanything he had made up to this
point.
And he also enjoyed the factthat there was a very
utilitarian nature to thepottery, which he also
understood, that made the artform much more appealing to the
general public, maybe who wouldnot understand the appeal of an
(15:09):
abstract painting or thecomplexities of one of his
portraits or Cubist paintings,but who could nonetheless fully
appreciate the value of abeautifully decorated plate or
picture.
And then the other main methodthat Picasso utilized in Mador
was when he created originalimages in dry clay molds.
(15:30):
So there would be these sort ofpieces of dried clay and
Picasso would engrave or etch orkind of carve out a design in
these, in these um molds, um,and then, uh, they, these
(15:51):
designs would then betransferred onto fresh uh wet
clay um, where it would ofcourse appear as a mirror image
or a very uh precise reversal ofhis marks Um, and these works
uh carry, um uh a specific mark,uh imprint, original to Picasso
.
So, anyway, there's various uhadditions that that he made, and
from starting in 1946 andfinishing in 1971, um, there are
(16:17):
various signatures, stamps,markings that attest to a
particular mold shape, aparticular design, different
serial numbers, et cetera.
It's possible to researchonline to find pretty
comprehensive guides to readingthese marks, so we won't go into
(16:38):
too many details about those.
So, really, to summarize, itwas a thing that Picasso could
do sort of in his holiday sparetime, if you like that he became
very passionate about.
He made many unique works aswell during these years, and the
(16:58):
unique works became keepsakesfor him.
They weren't sort of tradedcommercially like his paintings,
but they had a degree ofpreciousness.
He would retain them forhimself, pieces that he loved.
He would gift them to hisfamily and friends, and also to
the Ramillers, his collaboratorsand who also became his friends
(17:19):
Um.
So so there's this real passionproject with making these Um
and, I think, also a slightlycontrarian attitude to the art
world, um, he became very wellaware that there were some risks
attached to working in ceramics, to making these additions.
(17:39):
His dealer of the time, thefamous Parisian Daniel
Kahnweiler.
He was vehement that Picassoshould not do this and very,
very opposed to this shift inmedium, do this Um, and very,
very opposed to this shift inmedium he was.
He was absolutely convincedthat the prolificacy um of of
(17:59):
these items, these objects,would would completely erode
Picasso's existing market, wouldum sort of debase and devalue
uh the prices, the values thathis um, his paintings, uh
paintings, had already accrued.
So you know, this was somethingthat Picasso was really excited
(18:19):
to do for a number of reasons.
Jeppe Curth (18:24):
Okay, so this is how he made the ceramics and
also the reason for theproduction, but what did he make
exactly, and did his work inthis medium follow or reflect
the kinds of things he is makingin his painting or sculpture
works?
Nicholas Robinson (18:40):
Well, I mean, we have to remember that in
common to all of these thingsproduced by Picasso is Picasso
himself, and obviously therewere a number of motifs that
would recur throughout Picasso'sworking life, irrespective of
the medium in which he wasworking at any given time.
So, with his ceramics, we cansee that they are a really a
(19:05):
fascinating blend of traditionalpottery but also this kind of,
you know, simple, localvernacular, melded to his unique
artistic vision.
Um, some, some of the thingswere inspired by Spanish folk
ceramics, which actuallyactually placed a much higher
emphasis on the decoration ofthe pieces than than actually
(19:29):
the quality of the materials orthe perfection of the finished
object itself, and so the formsand the motifs were, uh,
inspired by folk ceramics, uh,the visual vernacular of Spanish
folk ceramics, and the motifsincluded faces, um, known as the
visage works, uh, bullfighters,fish goats, books, bullfighters
(19:59):
, fish, goats, other animals, Imean.
Picasso was famed for his loveof animals.
I think, as I mentioned, he'sgot to a point where he was
somewhat jaded, and his dealingswith various protagonists of
the art world, wealthycollectors, demanding sort of
entitled people over many yearshad led him to become somewhat
suspicious of people and humannature, and he found a certain
(20:23):
kind of escape and simplicity inhis relationship with animals.
So this recurs a lot A sunmotif, a sun god, and then
oftentimes a sort of free formof paintings and patterns that
resemble sort of feathers,different kinds of brushstrokes,
where he's really just makingabstract compositions with color
(20:43):
and sometimes with incisedforms, um, and then I guess, the
the.
The other very popular categoryum category is owls, and in
addition to his general love ofanimals, picasso had a
particular fondness for owls.
In the mid-1940s, working inMaduro, they came across an owl
(21:08):
who had become injured, its legand its claw was damaged, and
they took it upon themselves toto bandage the owl's injury, to
take care of it, and theyeventually adopted the owl as a
pet.
So the owl is is is perhaps themost recurring motif um in
(21:29):
Picasso's ceramics and and it'salmost a category unto itself.
And so he had these uhdifferent painterly motifs and
they were recreated on um thingsas various as plates and bowls
Um.
But as his um, as his competenceuh progressed, progressed and
(21:51):
developed, developed, he came toproduce much more complex forms
, pictures and vases withdifferent kinds of handles that
added a great deal to their sortof sinuous sculptural qualities
and, at their sort of apogee,these handles became
(22:13):
incorporated in sort ofbiomorphic or zoomorphic forms,
um, so that, let's say, thehandles would be a surrogate for
, uh, the limbs of a figure thathe was depicting with this
vessel, um, maybe the sort ofattenuated neck of a particular
(22:36):
picture form, uh would becomethe neck of a bird, um.
And so as his uh experience withceramics developed, um, he
increasingly experimented,experimented with the way uh,
the three-dimensional surface ofthe form could actually change
the perception of thetwo-dimensional surface of the
form, could actually change theperception of the
two-dimensional, two-dimensionalpatterns and designs that he
(22:59):
was painting on the surface.
So the different shadows,distortions, curvatures, um
would, it would would work, uh,with a particular synergy with
the, with the, with thepaintings on the surface that
became, you know, increasinglydesired features that both sort
of accentuated the form and thepainting itself.
Jeppe Curth (23:22):
So he made many of the same things in ceramics as
he did in the paintings,absolutely.
Nicholas Robinson (23:27):
I mean, like I said, the main sort of thrust,
the main red thread here isPicasso himself.
And Picasso is somebody whoturned his hand to creating in
all its forms all the time.
Um, we've seen his innovationsin painting.
We've seen how he incorporatedcollage into painting for the
(23:49):
first time.
We've seen how he assembledfound objects into sculpture
assemblage.
This is somebody who had aninstinctive understanding for
form and line and was able towork with, you know, extreme
instinct and economy in order tomake something out of anything
(24:12):
or something even out of nothing.
So when we look at Picasso'sceramics, we can see absolutely
the same guiding hand, the sameimpetus, the same instinct,
talent, creativity as we see inany other media that he produced
.
Jeppe Curth (24:30):
Okay, so what was it that prompted us to get
involved with these Picassoceramics works?
Nicholas Robinson (24:35):
looking and so, when you see this, humility
of object, this earthy material,and you see it elevated with
(24:57):
such deft markings.
They're extremely, extremelydesirable, seductive objects
with a incredible inherentbeauty.
And I think that, um, you know,when you, when you consider
that he was combining, sculptingthe form, he was combining this
with etching and engravingdesigns, he was utilising
(25:21):
painting and glazing and fusingall of his ideologies about
making work into this medium, Ithink that it's reasonable to
consider these as a sort of atotal artwork.
Um, where he is, he is, um, youknow, he is fusing all of these
techniques into one object andand simultaneously fostering,
(25:45):
you know, an entirely newdirection for this ancient
medium, for ceramic.
I mean, ceramics have beencommon to humanity for as long
as anything else that humanityhas made for itself to use
hybrid physicality, um, andelevating it so that it is, it's
a picture, but it's also asculpture and it's also a
(26:17):
painting, and it is all of thesethings in one object.
You know nothing, uh, aboutthis, um, uh, these very humble
objects is, in fact, humble, sothey are sort of pleasingly
deceptive in this way.
So that's really the firstthing, and then the second thing
that prompted us to really getinvolved was the fact that they
(26:41):
seemed to be extremelyaffordable relative to other
things that one could acquirefor similar amounts of money,
certainly by Picasso and also byother very noted, highly
regarded, reputable artists ofthe 20th century.
There appeared to be asignificant undervaluing of
(27:06):
Picasso ceramics.
Jeppe Curth (27:12):
Thank you, nick.
So for this episode we havetried to put in some facts
together about Picasso.
Could you please give it a go?
Nicholas Robinson (27:24):
Yes, absolutely.
I guess this sort of speaks toyou know, you asked what
prompted us to get involved andit's very easy for me to say,
you know they seem undervalued,but I guess I guess this uh,
this research uh, and this data,um underscores one of the key
reasons why we believe that tobe the case.
So these are the, these are thestatistics that we have put
(27:48):
together to illustrate thispoint Um.
So during Picasso's lifetime,um illustrate this point Um.
So during Picasso's lifetime,um, and his working life spanned
from 1900 more or less until1973.
So during this lifetime, hemade 13,500 paintings, uh, the
record price for which is$179,500,000.
(28:11):
And he made 12,000 drawings,the record price for which for
one of which is $14 million.
Um, he made 180,000 addition toprints, the record price for
which is $5.2 million.
And um, when we say in additionto prints, we talk about his,
(28:31):
about his lithographs, hisengravings, his etchings.
All of these would beconsidered an edition of print,
any image that he made thatcould be then reproduced.
So these are the numbersattached to.
These are the more commonlyassociated things with Picasso.
(28:53):
But in his ceramic work, picassomade only 4,000 unique ceramic
works, and a unique work meanssomething that Picasso made with
his own hand and of which thereexists only one.
So there's 4,000 of these andthe record price is 3.9 million.
(29:14):
And he made 120,000 editionceramics, the record for which
is 1.9 million, and between 1946and 71, picasso designed 633
(29:39):
different ceramic editions,additions, and that may include,
for example, there's a, there'sa, a, a body form that he
shaped, um, which is a uh, uh,uh.
It's a vase, has a very broadfoot that kind of looks like,
you know, bird feet, or can be asort of a stylized stand in for
bird feet, and the sort ofbulbous body, uh, with a certain
shape, uh, of the neck, um issomething that he used, uh to to
(30:01):
paint on to depict an owl, andhe used this standardized owl
form, if we can call it that,and he painted numerous
different designs on this.
So there are several differentowls, all of which have the same
fundamental body shape, butdifferent, different paintings
to depict the owl.
So so these permutations andcombination combinations would
(30:21):
also be in this 120 000 quantityof addition ceramics so picasso
made 4000 unique ceramic works,which is less than the output
number of his other medias.
Jeppe Curth (30:39):
Right, why is it, do you think, that they gain so
much in popularity?
Nicholas Robinson (30:45):
Well, I think that well, I mean, they're
Picassos and obviously it's.
The Picasso market in all itsits forms is really an industry
unto itself.
There are so many examples thathave been bought and sold
consistently for decades, sothey form a very
(31:08):
well-established market.
They sell certainly as well inthe prints.
Uh, you know, multiple examplesof these works sell all the
time.
So over time it's very possibleto collate a set of data and a
sort of comprehensive overviewas to how any one given example
(31:30):
has traded.
So not only do we have atrajectory of Picasso's price
and value performance as it, asit unfolds over time, um, we see
all of these things um forminga subset of the overall art
market, to the extent that thePicasso market often is
(31:52):
considered somewhat of abellwether or barometer for the
performance of the art market asa whole.
So it's a little bit like, youknow, in an art sense, the gold
standard.
So that's one reason why it's avery sort of sensible, safe,
secure thing to be involved inAll of the data that we can rely
(32:15):
upon to know what it is we'regetting involved with.
And then the the sort of secondmain thing is the fact that his
ceramics have been perceivedrather differently than these
other aspects of his output.
And when you know, you considerall of the points that we've
made up to now in this, in thisbroadcast, it starts to make
(32:40):
less and less sense why theceramics would be sort of
relegated to a lesser tier ofvalue and a lesser tier of
collecting desirability, um.
And that is changing Um,firstly, because of course there
are lots of people thatrecognize the opportunity with
something that has been um, notappreciated and therefore valued
(33:06):
in the way that they think itshould have been.
Um.
But more importantly, there'sbeen a very key shift in the
perception of materiality andhow important materiality is in
artistic production.
You know there used to be a view, a prevailing opinion, that
considered painting to be thevery sort of apogée of artistic
(33:31):
output.
It was the highest rankingthing in all the echelons of art
.
Alongside that you would havesculpture and then you would
have drawings and prints.
And in recent years photographyhas inserted itself into this
canon.
And again, you know, thingslike uniqueness, edition, size,
(33:55):
whatever has a bearing on, onprice and value, um.
But traditionally ceramics wasnot considered as an artistic
medium or a medium of high artat all.
It was something that wasassociated with craft, with
hobbies, with pastimes, withhobbies with pastimes, um, it
was along with ceramics, uh, andtextiles and whatever else, um,
(34:25):
it was something that that youknow, that perhaps women did on
on the weekend, um, and so itsuffered a lot, um, by these
sorts of, um, pejorativeconnotations.
So, as we look at these thingstoday, you know we can see a lot
of work in the modern andcontemporary art field that once
upon a time used to suffer byits association with these
(34:47):
lesser materials.
Nowadays, what we do is weinterrog, interrogate the object
, we interrogate the quality,the originality, the
intentionality of the maker, howthat maker and their work fits
into their, uh, their sort ofmilieu, um, and so the the fact
(35:09):
that something is sort of painton canvas or paint on clay
matters enormously less than itused to, and that also creates
obviously a very interestingthing for us to uh investigate
further, are they today seen asa more stable thing in a blue
chip category?
Well, yes, I mean, I thinkthey're, they're evolving into
(35:30):
that.
Um, I still believe that theirprices are so much less than
some of the other things, uh,and yet, when you you know
objectively, when you assessthem just as pure objects on
their own artistic merits, this,this makes no sense.
Um, we can see, in the last fewyears there have been um some
(35:51):
designated auctions, um solelyfor Picasso ceramics.
It used to be that you wouldhave painting auctions, you
would have a modern art auction,a contemporary art auction, you
would have print auctions.
Now there are entire auctionsuh devoted to to Picasso
ceramics.
So you can see that there is umuh, an increasingly established
(36:12):
subset of the market that isdevoted to this.
So that obviously indicates anevolving category that some of
the major industry protagonistsare devoting time and resources
to.
So there's a reason why they dothat because it's a growth
field, and I think that it's anarea that has a great deal of
(36:37):
appeal because it stillfunctions on multiple levels,
and by that I mean there are.
There's a great variety inprice and aesthetic, which
creates many um different entrypoints financially to for people
to be, to be able to getinvolved in it and to be able to
(36:57):
collect at you know, whateverlevel their budgets allow for.
Jeppe Curth (37:04):
Thank you, Nick.
Well, we have acquired a largenumber of Picasso ceramics over
the recent year and we alsoplaced numbers of important
works in collections.
When we have done that, we havealso presented the collectors
with quite a comprehensive dataset and report.
Could you maybe try to explainthe process to lead us to
(37:26):
recommending sources and buyingthese ceramic works?
Nicholas Robinson (37:30):
Yes, well, obviously, I've just mentioned
the reasons that prompted us tostart looking into this
originally.
The reasons that prompted us tostart looking into this
originally, um, and I, and Ithink a lot of the works that
we've been involved with, Ishould clarify, have been, have
been unique works which, whichyou know for, for the absence of
doubt is, is a is a Picassoartwork, sculpted and painted
(37:54):
artwork, that that just happensto be made from clay.
So so, obviously, that thatjust happens to be made from
clay.
So so, obviously, um, there's acertain preciousness in any
unique thing that comes from thehand of Picasso.
So that was the first thing,that that we understood that to
get a, a unique Picasso, in anyother media, um would be much
(38:19):
more expensive by a factor ofmany times, and so there was a
sense of opportunity, firstly,um that they were so much
cheaper relative to otherPicasso works, um, or indeed
other works by artists of asimilarly high status, um, so,
so the fact that that these werePicasso works was tremendously
(38:42):
attractive to us, of course, um,and when we started to try and
think about them in thiscontextual way, um vis-a-vis
other things in the market, itwas not unreasonable, or at
least we thought it was notunreasonable to assume that
these things would have greaterprice equivalency with similar
(39:05):
or related things in the future.
Um.
So once, once we come to thatconclusion that that we were
comfortable with, confident withum uh, enabling us to sort of
move, move forward with, we lookat other things like the
addition size, which of coursespeaks to scarcity.
(39:28):
It's obviously somewhat of aself-explanatory thing that
something that exists inaddition of 25 would invariably
have greater value thansomething that exists in
addition of 500, where there are499 other examples.
(39:52):
And then we get into things likethe complexity of form.
When Picasso, his methodologyand his technique and his
ability, um, we can seeincreased complexity, we can see
an increased synergy betweenthe sculpted form and the
(40:12):
painted surface working togetherto create an overall design um
of incredible sophistication.
Um.
So something that has thoseattributes would likely um have
greater value than uh.
Simply a plate with a heavilystylized sort of cursory graphic
(40:33):
of a fish.
Um, you know there's one is isa much more developed artwork
than another Um.
And then obviously we start tolook at things like the marks
that I explained, um, the stampsand signature, and various
marks and combinations of marksthat tell us when something was
(40:54):
made um and authenticates it Um,and I think it's.
It's also important to note thatyou know, let's say you have an
, a 500 numbered edition of a ofa Picasso ceramic.
It is not the case that theworkshop simply knocked out 500
of these things and put them ona shelf to gather dust until
(41:15):
somebody stumbled in to buy oneUm, so, uh, it is the case that
number one of 500 can be many,many years older than number 450
of the same design.
So you know, you have, you haveum, different values um, within
(41:36):
, like essentially the same, thesame object, or the same set of
objects Um.
And then, along with that, wehave things like condition,
which you know, where weinvestigate the patina, we
investigate whether the objectis and and, and I should say
that these objects, you knowthere's not a, there's not such
(41:58):
a preciousness to the objectthemselves.
There's a real inherentearthiness in the materiality.
There are naturally occurringflaws and you know sort of
accidents that happen in the, inthe firing.
These are not condition issues,these are sort of innate to the
materiality and to the process.
Um, things that I'm talkingabout are perhaps in unglazed or
(42:19):
biscuit, finished works, maybethere's an accumulation of
patina from uh oil, frompeople's hands and fingers,
handling them over time, whethersome of the glazes have been
rubbed off.
You know, all of these thingscan be inspected and sort of
(42:41):
attested to and have a bearingon the value.
So this is the other thing thatwe look at.
You know, after we examine theform and we decide if the sort,
we can, you know, validate theobject and determine if it's, if
(43:02):
its condition is stable andgood enough to merit the, the
price that's being asked for itit was this that determined our
decision to commit time andresource to get involved in the
piqueso ceramic work.
I mean all of these factorsreally, um, where, where we
could see there was, there was,you know, a real merit to, to,
to, to embracing it as as a partof our practice, um, something
(43:26):
we could be passionate about,and also that we could believe
in um from a very uh rational umset of criteria and perspective
.
Um, but I think, I think reallythere's also a certain you know
, we've been doing this for along time.
We've seen lots of differentthings come and go.
We've seen um trends evolve anddevelop and stay the course,
(43:48):
and you know nothing aboutPicasso is transient or
ephemeral Um and and and and.
When there's an entire field ofPicasso productivity that that
feels like it has a lot ofpotential, then there's there's
a sort of an instinctivecomponent to feeling this and
following this In.
(44:10):
In recent years we've seen youknow I mentioned that Picasso
kept a lot of the uniqueceramics for himself, gave them
to family and friends.
We gave many of them to hisdaughter, marina Picasso.
Um, and there were there havebeen some auction sales of works
from her collection.
So we've got we've got uniquePicasso works and unique Picasso
(44:31):
works that have a uh, aprovenance that includes Pablo
Picasso and then a directlineage to his daughter.
I mean, this is a, this is acompelling object with a
fantastic history.
Um, so it was, you know, thingslike this opportunity or these
opportunities, um, allied withthe other information that we
(44:54):
were evaluating, that thatreally convinced us that, that
this was something that wereally, really wanted to to
become involved with.
Jeppe Curth (45:09):
So, nick, what are the prices on these Picasso
ceramics works?
I know it's a big variety ofsizes and unique and not unique,
but if we take like a bigedition, 500 edition works and
what would the price be on this?
Nicholas Robinson (45:24):
uh, it's a good question.
Uh, it's a little bit likeasking how long is a piece of
string, um, but uh, I'll try andanswer.
Um, there are, there are verymany, as I mentioned, there's
more than 600 different uhceramic 633.
And some of them are relativelyunimpressive, if I may say, and
(45:46):
some of them are magnificent, Isuppose you could say.
If we boil down the question tothe basics, the cheapest
Picasso ceramic that one couldfeasibly buy is a few thousand
dollars, somewhere under $5,000.
Um, it wasn't so long ago thatone could get a very simple
(46:07):
little vase or plate, quitebasic and not hugely exciting,
but one could still get this for1,500, $2,000 euros.
Um, perhaps that's slightlyambitious.
Now.
The prices continue to changeand grow all the time, um, and
you know it's still not a fullymature market, so it's evolving.
(46:30):
Um, so this would be, I suppose, the entry point.
Um, but you know, not alladditions of 500 works were
created equally either, toanswer your other question.
So you know, as an example,there are some of the owls that
were produced in editions of 500, you know, they can be 50,
(46:51):
$60,000, where a small plate,also from an edition of 500
could be maybe $6,000.
So again, it depends on howcaptivating, how enticing the
imagery, how sought after itbecomes.
You know a lot of Picassocollectors ceramic collectors
(47:11):
become very knowledgeable as tothe different.
You know times that he spent inValois and the relationships
that he was in the vagaries ofhis life and some of these works
.
You know times that he spent inValois and the relationships
that he was in the vagaries ofhis life and some of these works
.
You know they have particularanecdotes attached to them that
enhance their legend.
Um so so you know the.
The.
The prices can vary accordingly, um, depending on the renown
(47:35):
that these particular objectshave in the eyes of the market.
You can spend up to.
You know you can spend up tothree or four hundred thousand
dollars on an edition work ifit's one of 25, for instance.
Jeppe Curth (47:51):
So maybe a better question would be what kind of
work would be good to get?
Maybe also, what kind of workwould you get?
Nicholas Robinson (48:00):
Well, that's a really good question.
I think really the guidingprinciple for that kind of
question is, you know, buy thebest thing that you can.
And as sort of throw away acomment as that is, I can
qualify that by saying that ifyou can get something that's
unique, then that, of course,qualitatively is is a meaningful
(48:23):
thing unto itself, almostirrespective of of what it looks
like.
Um, so that's that's the firstthing.
Um, then I think that you know,one should look to the things
that maybe one can feel, uh,picasso's real love in making,
and you know it's easy to to.
To refer back to the owls, Ireally have a strong uh
(48:46):
appreciation for those.
It feels like he, he, there's,there's a very sort of tender,
loving quality in the way thatthey are made and depicted, um,
the sweetness to them, if youlike.
Um, that I think is isfantastic.
Um, and they also, you know,they have that combination of
form and painted surface thatreally works well together.
(49:06):
I would much rather have avessel, um like a vase or a
picture, because it has acertain sculptural
three-dimensionality.
Um, that I suppose is is betterthan a plate, which is just
essentially a flat surface.
So, you know, you can sort ofsee for yourself, which are
(49:27):
perhaps a little more obviouslyappealing than others.
Jeppe Curth (49:32):
Thanks, Nick, and for anybody that maybe are new
to Picasso ceramic works whereto start exploring his work and
where can you buy them?
Nicholas Robinson (49:44):
you can buy them quite easily.
I mean you can look on onlineand you can find them there in
all the usual art marketplacevenues.
Christie's, as I mentioned, hasdesignated Picasso ceramic
auctions with somewhat regularly.
So one just has to log on totheir website and one can look
(50:10):
at all of the catalogs online,the various essays that are
produced to support the moresignificant pieces.
You can type in the name of apiece if you see something you
like, also in the Christie'ssearch box, and it will bring up
other examples that Christie'sthemselves have sold and the
prices that they have achieved.
(50:32):
Sotheby's.
You can also do this forPicasso ceramics or for any
artwork for that matter.
So even if you don't haveexpensive subscriptions to
different search databases, youcan use the online resources of
the auction houses to do some ofthis cursory research yourself.
And I think the other thingthat I think is very interesting
(50:54):
about Picasso's work.
I mean you can maybe buy adrawing let's say for $50,000, a
Picasso drawing.
You can actually get quite anice number of ceramics for that
same amount of money.
So it would actually bepossible to get some diversity
in Picasso's range of motifs sothat you could in fact develop
(51:19):
somewhat of a coherent, cohesivemini collection of Picasso's,
whereby you would end up withmultiple things instead of just
one thing for that same same sumof money.
Jeppe Curth (51:32):
Thank you, nick.
Normally now I will.
I would ask you if you haveanything to add, but I think we
have already given a verycomprehensive insight on the
Picasso ceramics, so I don'twant to.
I want to spare you today andjust thank you for sharing all
your knowledge once again,thanks, jeppe.
Nicholas Robinson (51:50):
It's really a pleasure.
It's a really interesting fieldand I really can't recommend it
highly enough.
Jeppe Curth (51:56):
So if you have any questions, you want to know more
about picasso, you can alwaysreach us on info at nordic art
partnerscom and hope to hear youback soon, thanks bye.
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