February 14, 2025 • 57 mins
Learn how the psychedelic training and retreat industry is evolving with Danielle Nova, Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society and co-founder of FlowState.
In this episode we discuss growing demand for professional microdosing facilitation and how practitioners can build ethical, successful businesses in this emerging field.
Danielle shares insights on comprehensive practitioner training, working with diverse populations, and creating sustainable business models. Get an insider's perspective on industry trends, practitioner requirements, and the future of legitimate psychedelic businesses.
#retreat #wellness #businessgrowth #psychedelics #podcast #microdosing #recovery #business #plantmedicine
01:44 Introducing Flow State
03:54 Microdosing Facilitator Training
05:54 Danielle's Personal Journey with Psychedelics
08:12 The Power of Overcoming Addiction
12:30 The Importance of Microdosing Education
24:41 Psilocybin and LSD: The Future of Microdosing
31:49 Who Should Avoid Microdosing?
35:21 Cultural Programming and Psychedelic Medicine
39:14 Mindset and Relationship with Medicine
46:27 Legalization and Accessibility of Psychedelics
About the Guest:
Danielle Nova is the Executive Director of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society and co-founder of FlowState, a company specializing in microdosing practitioner training and retreats. With over 20 years of experience in psychedelics, she has helped educate more than 25,000 people worldwide through her educational programs.
Danielle was instrumental in passing the first resolution to decriminalize entheogenic plants in Oakland, sparking a global movement. Her work focuses on standardizing microdosing protocols and building comprehensive support systems for practitioners, collaborating with leading experts including Dr. Jim Fadiman.
About RetreatHelp:
RetreatHelp is an end-to-end business consulting and marketing systems provider with a mission to simplify the business of retreats, helping conscious leaders sell out their events faster, increase revenue, and have a greater impact with less stress.
We specialize in helping retreat leaders and conscious business owners streamline and scale their businesses through our comprehensive Four Pillar System: marketing, sales, technical systems, and business operations. Using cutting-edge technology, AI integration, and automated solutions, RetreatHelp enables retreat facilitators to focus on creating transformative experiences while reducing manual workload.
Guest Links:
✦ Website: https://flowstatenow.com/mft/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/connectwithd/
✦ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/connectwithd/
Podcast links:
✦ Website: https://retreathelp.com/podcast
✦ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/64GwMQE2QPLqDE9fFxIFR2
✦ ApplePodcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-complete-retreat-podcast/id1784541260
✦ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RetreatHelp
Additional links:
✦ Website: https://retreathelp.com/
✦ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/retreat.help/
✦ RetreatHelp Private Community: https://community.retreathelp.com/login
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2024 (00:00):
I lost my ability to talk, walk,
(00:01):
function.
I had a brain injury andpsychedelics brought me back to
life and over many years, Icompletely transformed out of
the identity of addiction intoliberation of my soul into
purpose.
And realized that, it was.
All a part of my journey.
I believe that our greatestgifts lie in our greatest
(00:24):
struggles.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (00:24):
what do you see for the future of
microdosing as far asaccessibility and doctors being
able to prescribe it and thisbeing a more viable option for
people on a broad scale,
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (00:34):
The revolution will not just be
medicalized.
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Came (00:38):
what is up, and welcome to another
episode of the Complete RetreatPodcast, where we talk to
retreat creators and retreatindustry experts about what it
takes to create a thrivingretreat business.
Did you know that you can make aretreat for just about anything?
In this episode, I talk withDanielle Nova, who is the
Executive Director of the SanFrancisco Psychedelic Society
(01:01):
and one of the co founders ofFlowState, which is a company
that provides training and hostsretreats for microdosing
practitioners.
Danielle and I have a greatconversation.
We talk all things micro dosingand psychedelics and she really
helped open my eyes to thepossibilities for when it might
be appropriate or when a retreatcould really help bolster a
(01:23):
business and help to provideanother layer of value to the
customers of a business.
I love what she's doing and I'mreally excited for you to hear
what she has to say.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (01:34):
what are you excited about?
What's present with you rightnow?
What's going on in Danielle'slife that's, that, that really
lights you up and that you'reexcited to put into the world?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (01:44):
I'm just I'm feeling so excited
about this new business thatI've been starting with my
business partner, Adam Bramlage.
We just started a new companycalled Flow State.
And this company focuses ontraining, mentorship, and
leadership.
and retreats and consultationfor microdosing practitioners.
(02:07):
So it's the parent company ofthe microdosing facilitator
training.
And We have a lot of differentofferings that are underneath
this umbrella.
So primarily we have themicrodosing facilitator training
and then, and I'll go into that.
But after people go through thetraining program, then we
provide ongoing consultation forour facilitators.
(02:28):
We know that the facilitationjourney begins once people take
the training, and so we provideongoing mentorship, guidance,
consultation, both on thebusiness end of their
facilitation practices, but alsoa place where practitioners are
going to process their caseloadswith experts in the facilitation
community.
And then we're doing in personretreats with thought leaders
(02:51):
like Dr.
Jim Fadiman, Manesh Gurn fromUCSF and different individuals
in the psychedelic space wherewe're bringing people together
in Santa Cruz, California tolaunch their microdosing
facilitation businesses, whichis really exciting.
I feel like so much in thepsychedelic space is teaching
people how to facilitate theseexperiences, but it doesn't
(03:13):
focus on Well, what aboutlaunching your own business and
all the energy that it takes toput into that from the marketing
and to, the businessinfrastructure business plan.
So, that's what the retreat'sgoing to focus on.
And then we also provide one onone coaching for practitioners
to help them take their ideasand create an entrepreneurial
(03:35):
journey for them and map outtheir entire facilitation
business.
So.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis new project.
It's lighting me up.
And yeah it's the mostmeaningful project I've ever put
into existence on earth.
So I'm just really grateful forthe opportunity to steward it.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (03:53):
That's super exciting.
And again, one of the reasonsthat I reached out to you
specifically because of themicrodose facilitator training,
I wanted to know more about thatand learn more about that
specific offering that you'redoing.
I think I mentioned to youbefore that I've I've personally
spent three or four yearshelping people on their
(04:15):
microdosing journey,facilitating those journeys for
people, and the information youneed to know and the experience
you need to have to be able toadequately and safely and
effectively guide somebodythrough a microdosing journey,
especially if they're coming toit as somebody who doesn't have
any prior experience withpsychedelics.
(04:36):
There's a lot of.
Knowledge that you need to haveto impart on the people that
you're working with and it's abit of a Sensitive subject or
it's getting somebody startedwith micro dosing can
potentially be requires somefinesse and the ability to
sometimes work with veryvulnerable people or people who
(04:58):
are dealing with certain thingsin their life.
If people are feeling great andtheir life is all in order,
they're probably not coming toyou for microdosing.
So, having the ability to knowhow to deal with different
people in different situations.
Life situations is reallyimportant.
So I'd love to know more aboutthe facilitator training, but I
think first it would be reallyawesome to, to get a little bit
(05:21):
of background and hear how youeven came to this place.
Like what led you to, to wantingto bring this into the world?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (05:29):
Hmm.
I appreciate how you appreciatethe Intention and integrity
behind the complexity ofnavigating microdosing
experiences for other people andthe importance that the training
provides.
Thank you so much that I reallyvalue your appreciation for the
(05:50):
work.
And So what brought me into thisspace?
So I've been using psychedelicsfor over 20 years and I was
actually quite a psychedelicadvocate when I was in high
school, doing MDMA, going toraves, educating my peers about
psychedelics.
Of course, back then it wasentirely stigmatized and I was
not being heard amongst mypeers.
(06:13):
But during that time, I ended upexperiencing a lot of trauma in
high school and my dad is adoctor.
My mom's a counselor.
They sent me to a psychiatrist.
I was put on a litany ofprescription drugs like
antidepressants, moodstabilizers, ADHD medications,
sleeping medications, and thenbecame severely addicted to
(06:36):
Oxycontin was in and out of.
Eight different treatmentcenters throughout my twenties,
I was a complete slave toaddiction.
I believe I had the disease ofaddiction and all these mental
health issues.
And was prescribed hundreds ofpsychiatric drugs and was told I
was going to be, have to be ondrugs for the rest of my life,
that I was going to be an addictfor the rest of my life, that I
(06:57):
had no future, that I, yeah, itwas just completely
Disencouraged to be a humanbeing, really, and to just
believe that I had all theseissues and that I had to take
drugs for the rest of my life.
And then one day I, Ended upjust having a spiritual
awakening and realized that Iwas taking all of these drugs to
(07:19):
help myself and I had beensuicidally depressed for 15
years and realized maybe thedrugs were my problem.
So I slowly pulled myself offall these medications and.
And it completely debilitatedme.
I lost my ability to talk, walk,function.
I had a brain injury andpsychedelics brought me back to
(07:41):
life and snapped me out of thisreally intense withdrawal
syndrome that I had beenexperiencing.
Specifically, ayahuasca, I beganmicrodosing.
With psilocybin and then LSD, Idid sessions with Iboga and over
many years, I completelytransformed out of the identity
of addiction into liberation ofmy soul into purpose.
(08:02):
And realized that, it was.
All a part of my journey.
And I'm so grateful for myaddiction, honestly, because it
brought me to my purpose on thisplanet.
And I'm so grateful for thesuffering that I went through,
because it brought me to thisconversation here with you
today.
I believe that our greatestgifts lie in our greatest
struggles.
And yeah the.
(08:23):
The 15 years that I spent aslave to addiction was my
training program to, whichbrought me to the work that I'm
doing now.
Oh
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (08:30):
Well, that's super powerful.
Thank you for sharing.
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Came (08:34):
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ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955 (09:32):
I know that's a lot to have to
bring up into To bring to thelight and it sounds like you've
done a lot of work to come toterms with that and just your
perspective around that It'svery much in alignment with my
perspective on the things thatwe deal with in life our
challenges those are the thingsthat help make us who we are and
teach us The biggest lessons Ipersonally I nearly died from
(09:56):
prescription medication.
Oh, almost 11 years ago.
And now I was put on amedication that was supposed to
make me better.
And I nearly bled to death frominternal bleeding.
And
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-202 (10:07):
my God.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955 (10:08):
I consider that the.
The worst, best thing that everhappened to me and had a near
death experience essentially andthat was really the start of my
journey and trying to figure outwhat the hell is going on with
life and what's life all aboutand just really seeking from
that point.
(10:29):
And so, yeah, that story is verypowerful.
And I hope that.
People hear that and are in aplace that is really challenging
right now.
Like anybody who hears thatanything is possible.
Like it's, and it's really inhow we perceive and choose to
(10:50):
perceive the situations thatwe're in dictate how we react to
them and how we are able to moveforward.
So much of our.
Our experience in life as humanbeings on this planet is
dictated by our perceptions andwe get to choose whether or not
something is bad or good, bad orgood or just labels that we
(11:13):
place on our experiences or thethings in our experience and
just as we choose to labelsomething as bad, we can so
easily choose to label things asgood and the fact that you've
made that choice, I think isreally inspiring and that
anybody can achieve that and itjust requires work a lot of work
(11:36):
and there's a process toeverything in life, but that's
super beautiful.
Thank you for sharing yourstory.
And I guess what?
So you sound like you tried manydifferent modalities.
Natural medicine, plantmedicine, alternative healing,
whatever you want to call it.
From ayahuasca to iboga andmicrodosing.
So what specifically aboutmicrodosing or psilocybin in
(12:00):
general?
Drew you to, to the path ofwhere you are now helping teach
facilitators that
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (12:09):
Yeah.
Thank you for saying all that.
And I honor you as well for whatyou've been through almost dying
from that medication and thejourney that you've been on to,
to overcome that is incrediblypowerful and yeah, just
receiving that.
Experience from you as well isamazing.
Thank you for all the work thatyou've done on yourself.
(12:30):
So yeah, for the past, let'ssee, after I overcame the, well,
the overcoming addiction wasquite a long process and I feel
like I'm still going through itand it's layers and layers.
It's not just one moment wherewe suddenly overcome addiction.
It's, So many different layersfrom releasing the physical
withdrawals to now it's aroundreleasing the identity of
(12:54):
addiction and the belief offeeling to understanding that we
can feel safe in the worldbeyond needing to take
substances and I think we Aspeople that go through
addiction, we get programmed ata very young age that we have to
be reliant on something for therest of our lives.
So it's a long unlearningprocess there.
(13:16):
And ultimately the place thatI'm at now is healing the
underlying root causes that ledme to my addiction in the first
place.
Cause that's what I understandnow.
It's not about the drugs beingaddictive.
It's not about the, even theaddiction itself.
It's about what leads a personto want to escape themselves.
And to, allow people to, toreconnect with how amazing they
are as human beings and to wantto create a life that we don't
(13:39):
want to run away from.
And that's really what the workhas been for me of like, I've
now created a life that I don'twant to.
I don't want to run away fromit.
I don't want to escape myself.
I want to be here, be in thisexistence because I feel so much
meaning and purpose now when Iwant that for other people.
So for the last five years, I'vebeen creating educational
(13:59):
programs for over 25, 000 peopleworldwide through my work at the
San Francisco PsychedelicSociety.
I also was on the founding teamof Decriminalize Nature Oakland.
We passed the first resolutionto decriminalize all entheogenic
Plants and fungi in the city ofOakland, which spread a global
movement where over a dozencities have adopted our same
(14:20):
language.
And throughout that time, Icreated two microdosing courses
in collaboration with AdamBramlage, Dr.
Jim Fadiman And otherpractitioners that we
collaborated with, and we hadover 3000 people worldwide go
through our programs with microdosing, many of which are
(14:41):
practitioners and doctors andnurses and all different types
of individuals.
And after we created theseprograms.
Programs that were more focusedon teaching people how to
microdose on their own, we saw aneed for more of a professional
training for practitioners to beable to guide their clients
through microdosing protocols.
And so, yeah, that's what led tothis next training, this new
(15:03):
training program that we'vedeveloped.
From all the work that we didteaching people and as well,
I've been working as amicrodosing coach for five
years, working one on one withpeople and have a lot of
experience, navigating differentcomplex scenarios and cases with
individuals, just like yourself.
So I think, That experience thatI've gained as well as that Adam
(15:25):
is gained.
We saw a need to develop thistraining program and also
there's so many incredibleteachers.
We have over 20 guest teachersand faculty on our faculty of
this training program,highlighting all these different
areas.
Because just like you saidearlier, there's a lot of
different complex cases that aregoing to come to microdosing
experiences, and it's verynuanced in our approach.
(15:47):
So, that's why we have so manydifferent teachers from all
these different areas ofexpertise to be able to train
our practitioners to have themost comprehensive and holistic
training on microdosing.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (16:00):
having a support system that is that
robust and extensive, wherethere are different doctors who
with different specialties thatyou could reach out to or lean
on or ask questions to.
And even just the support systemwithin the facilitator training
itself is.
Like, the value in that cannotbe understated.
(16:22):
I mean, People would come to melooking for relief from all
kinds of things.
This was back in the day when Iwas.
Still facilitating microdosingfrom tinnitus, ringing of the
ears, cancer patients, peoplewith different neurological
disorders, people with traumaticbrain injuries, people with
(16:42):
autism, people on the spectrum.
One of the beautiful thingsabout psilocybin is that it's
such a diverse medicine.
It can really help people with aan incredible range of ailments.
And in order to be able to helpa range of people effectively,
there's different protocols anddifferent applications, and even
(17:06):
different strains, differentamounts, different frequencies
of microdosing for differentpeople in different situations.
And, even though.
Somebody may personally have alot of experience.
Like that information is notjust intuitive.
You don't, you're not just goingto know exactly how and what.
Somebody is going to need andhaving that database of
(17:29):
information that you can rely onthrough a training like yours or
being associated with a grouplike yours, if somebody is
listening to this, and they'rethinking about wanting to be a
micro dosing facilitator orprovide this medicine for people
in this way, I cannot underscorethe importance of what Danielle
is doing and the amount ofinformation and knowledge that
(17:50):
she's, gathered as a resource,because there are going to be so
many times where somebody comesto you for help and you're just
going to think, Oh, that, thatis a completely random
situation.
What the hell do I do with that?
How am I going to help thisperson?
Is there a situation wheremicrodosing could help this
(18:11):
person potentially, probably,maybe?
But like you're going to have,you're going to be doing a lot
of your own research, a lot ofreading and just having that
resource again, that you'reproviding with this is, it's
something I never had.
And looking back at it now, it'slike, how different would things
have been?
Like, how much easier would ithave been if I had that kind of
a support system?
(18:32):
So that's an incrediblyvaluable.
thing that you're puttingtogether.
And I just want to thank you foryour work and bringing those
resources together for people ina single space where people can
have access to such a variety ofinformation and people who are
really experts in the field.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (18:51):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for, I reallyappreciate you seeing the value
in it.
And, I feel like our work is tocreate and be the person that we
wish we had.
And that's part of why I createdthis program, is because.
There's not enough ofindividuals that are
(19:12):
understanding how to ethicallyhold these spaces.
And I think people really wantto and aren't resourced to.
And that's why we've covered somany of our bases with this
training from, we have Dr.
Ben Malcolm, who teaches usabout medication
contraindications.
He's a clinical pharmacist andHow to safely support people
that decide to titrate off ofmedications and which
(19:34):
medications are higher risk tocombine with micro dosing.
We, we get to learn about theactual research and the studies
that are being done on microdosing from the researchers
themselves.
And people can ask themquestions.
All of our classes are live.
So people get to access thesepractitioners.
We even have my friend ReggieHarris from from hyphae labs.
(19:55):
He's been doing all of thisresearch on the underground
where people submit samples ofpsilocybin mushroom strains, and
they've identified hundreds ofdifferent strains and which
strains are more suitable formicro dosing, which strains are
more suitable for macro dosing.
And the nuances there, becausejust like you were talking
about, it's important thatpractitioners understand these
differences.
(20:16):
We I have, we just did ourtraining session last night that
taught about navigating complextrauma and microdosing and how
to navigate that as apractitioner and when to refer
out and how to support people intheir sexual liberation process.
I teach about microdosing forinterrupting addiction and
different specific tools tonavigate.
(20:37):
Help people navigate thatprocess.
We have intake forms.
We have a whole process that wetake people through.
And and really our mission withthis is to standardize the
protocol and the support systemsfor microdosing and to have a
community of support wherepeople can bring their complex
cases.
They can bring their complexquestions and they can get them
(20:57):
Answer it in community and wedon't have to just guess
anymore.
And so I'm really, yeah, I feellike it's incredible what we've
developed and we're really atthe infancy phase of it as well.
Like this year, we're bringingon 5 new teachers and our guest
faculty and incredible thoughtleaders into the program.
We have had 55 studentsworldwide join our 1st cohort
(21:19):
and we're launching our 2ndcohort, which starts in January.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (21:23):
That is super exciting.
And I started facilitatingmicrodosing for people back in
2019, so it's been about fiveyears since I was really heavily
involved with that.
And there was next to nothing.
There was a couple of books andnot a lot of research.
And even still today, I mean,there, there's still,
(21:43):
comparatively speaking, There'snot a ton of research
specifically about microdosing,so gathering that information is
a, if you're doing it byyourself, is a very time
consuming task, and it's justreally a labor of love.
And I know there are a lot ofpeople who are really good
intentioned, who want to getinto helping others.
(22:06):
Experience positive benefitsfrom working with psilocybin and
microdosing, but the amount oftime and effort it takes to
become competent in this withoutany sort of external guidance.
It's.
It's really a steep hill toclimb and something that you
mentioned that I thought ofbecause I'm coming up on my 20
(22:29):
year anniversary from startingto, from when I first started
working with psilocybin myself,but it'll be in December.
And that's.
When I was taking people on asmicro dosing clients, I would
tell them, I'd say, okay, inthis 90 minute consultation, I'm
going to condense 20, almost 20years of personal experience
(22:49):
into 90 minutes and give youeverything that you need, like
the things that are reallyimportant and really break it
down so you can understand and,but I never got that talk.
Nobody ever Transcribed saidthat to me or sat me down and
was able to have thatconversation with me.
It was something that I had todevelop on my own and it was, it
(23:10):
just took so much time.
And I'm really again, inspiredby the work that you're doing
and, excited that there arepeople out there who are doing
the thing that I wished other, Iwish somebody would do this.
I would continue to think this.
I wish somebody Would put allthis together in a resource and
train other people to do thisbecause I mean, it's kind of the
wild west.
I would, I would, people wouldcome to me.
(23:31):
They're like, Oh, I was workingwith somebody else, or I tried
something else, or I went onlineand I found this forum and I
tried to follow this protocol orit's like, where do I get the
mushrooms from?
And I tried to order from somesketchy website with Bitcoin.
And there's a lot that goes intoit.
And I heard from the people whowould come to me, I wouldn't say
horror stories, but.
(23:51):
people would come to me in astate of frustration and like
they'd spent a lot of timetrying to figure it out on their
own and they didn't get very faror they had results that were
not satisfactory to them.
And the way that you're doing itand the level of competency of
the people that you're workingwith is pretty, pretty
(24:13):
impressive.
So I want to acknowledge thatand kudos to you and I guess
the.
A question that I always have islike, what specifically about
psilocybin?
Because there's a lot ofdifferent things you can
potentially microdose.
What specifically aboutpsilocybin is attractive to you
(24:33):
and makes you want to work withit and develop this whole
protocol around?
psilocybin specifically.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16 (24:40):
That's a great question.
So, at the centerpiece of thistraining is psilocybin and LSD
microdosing.
I believe that psilocybin is themost accessible.
People can grow it in theirhomes.
It's decriminalized.
I think it's like 2 dozen citiesat this point across the U.
S.
And it's the lower lowest riskprofile of the medicines in
(25:05):
terms of the micro dosing, andit's highly researched, at least
in larger doses.
Like you said, there's verylittle We're really at the
infancy phase of microdosingresearch.
There's very little microdosingresearch.
Within the past year, theresearch has increased by 300%.
Dr.
Connor Murray, who is on ourfaculty, he did the first LSD
(25:28):
microdosing study in the U S andthey proved that microdosing is
not a placebo, which is amazing.
So we now have proof that evenat lower doses, there is a An
increase in the BDNF, which isthe brain nootropic growth
factor, and I'm really excitedto see where microdosing
research goes.
It's very limited becausethere's a prohibition on the
(25:52):
participants in the actualstudy, taking the microdose on
their own.
And so there's a study, Ibelieve it's out of Australia
that was able to do that, wherethey let the participants take
it at home.
But.
The current framework forresearch in the U S prohibits
from participants takingmicrodosing on their own.
They have to come in and theclinic.
And so there's a lot of barriersagainst microdosing research
(26:16):
right now, but I think thatwe're going to see a big changes
in that area.
And yeah, psilocybin microdosingis from the research over, I
think it was like over 3 millionpeople or 4 million, million
people worldwide have researchedmicrodosing primarily with
psilocybin.
And yeah, the profile of highrisk and contraindications is a
(26:37):
lot lower with that.
And people can forage it, peoplecan grow it on their own.
And it's, I think it's one ofthe most accessible substances
for people to microdose.
And in terms of LSD microdosingas well, I think that's Higher
accessibility with that as well.
Definitely lower accessibilityof people to be able to access
(26:58):
LSD.
It can be both easy to dose andchallenging to dose as well as
psilocybin easy to dose andchallenging to dose based on the
type of psilocybin.
Based on the type of LSD, theformat it's coming.
And, liquid is a lot easier tomicrodose with LSD versus tabs
of LSD and with psilocybin.
(27:18):
It's just people seem to havegreater access to it because you
can grow your own.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1419 (27:23):
And in regards to demographics and
types of people who mightbenefit from microdosing, in
your experience and with thework you've been doing, are
there any certain profiles ofpeople that have greater results
with it?
Who are you and, the people thatare going through your training,
(27:44):
what is their, target audienceor who is coming to microdosing
and who might benefit from this.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16 (27:51):
That's such a great question.
There's so many differentpopulations of people that can
benefit from microdosing.
I think a lot of the focus rightnow in the psychedelic space is
on helping people that are.
Sick or addicted get well.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
And we train on that.
And we train to help people thatare already doing well, that are
(28:15):
already healthier to get evenfeel even better in their lives.
So it's on such a spectrum frompeople that are dealing with
chronic mental illnesses andbrain injury and trauma and
addiction and.
A lot of most of the populationsI see are people that are on
psychiatric drugs, wanting toget off psychiatric drugs and
(28:35):
wanting to use microdosing tosupport them getting off of
that.
We're really the only trainingprogram in the world that
teaches practitioners how tosupport people that.
Are either interruptingaddiction with microdosing or
helping them get off ofpsychiatric drugs if they so
choose with microdosing, there'smillions of people that are
stuck on psychiatric drugs anddon't know how to get off of
(28:57):
them.
I was one of those people, soI'm so passionate about helping
people that decide that theywant to get off medications
through the use of microdosingand then a big focus is on
helping people just.
Get well that, there's peoplethat are healthy and, but they
don't feel motivated or theydon't feel like they have access
to their creativity or theydon't feel life purpose or
(29:21):
there's areas that they want toexpand.
And they're just interested inthe personal growth attributes
of microdosing or endurance.
There's a lot of people thathave found microdosing can be
helpful for.
Exercise and motivation.
So, we don't really prevent anyspecific person unless someone
is higher risk.
(29:41):
There's definitely higher riskprofiles like mothers or that
are breastfeeding pregnantwomen.
There is some research that isbeing done on breastfeeding
women, people with mitral valvecancer.
I'm Dr.
Noah Herman.
Buh bye.
Bipolar disorder orschizophrenia or psychosis are
much higher risk and need tohave a lot more care and support
around those populations ofpeople.
(30:02):
But we really, view microdosingcan be accessible is, can be
much more accessible for greaterpopulations of people than
potentially macrodosing,definitely for older people as
well.
People that are in theireighties or even nineties,
people that are dealing withAlzheimer's and different.
mental health type ofconditions.
(30:23):
There's, there's, we're reallyat the infancy phase of
understanding its applicationson so many different populations
of people.
But because it's such lowerdoses the risk potential profile
is a lot lower for certainpopulations of people.
And we also have Dr.
Jim Fadiman, who's my mentor.
He's on the training.
He's on the faculty.
(30:43):
We have multiple sessions withhim.
He's the elder, he's the reasonwhy we do this work.
I just want to honor him for allof the work that he's done in
the psychedelic field.
For those that are new to Dr.
Jim Fadiman, he's one of theoriginal researchers.
He's been researchingpsychedelics since the sixties.
He pioneered the firstcreativity research with
psychedelics.
(31:04):
with LSD as well as the firstresearch study with psychedelics
and addiction, he's been, he'sthe reason why microdosing is
popularized in the modern world.
He stewarded that process.
He wrote the first book about itintroducing microdosing.
He's about to come out with hisnew microdosing book.
He's been.
Gathering experience reportsfrom thousands of people
(31:26):
worldwide.
He's the most knowledgeableperson about micro dosing.
And, he said that this trainingis the most comprehensive
training on micro dosing thatexists.
And he shows up for our facultyand our community and answers
all the questions that peoplehave around micro dosing.
And yeah that's, a little bitabout who this is for.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (31:46):
Thank you.
That was very, yeah, verycomprehensive.
I guess the flip side to thatquestion is, are there any
groups of people or populationsthat microdosing is problematic
for, or it's a hard no?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (32:00):
Yes, I love that question.
I think a hard no is someonethat's just looking to
microdosing to do all the workfor them.
A hard no is someone that's notwanting to put in work on
themselves.
We view microdosing as likeriding an electric bike.
You still have to pedal, and itcan accelerate your process, but
(32:22):
you are a participant in thatprocess.
Someone that's looking tomicrodose to solve all their
problems, take away all theirpain to viewing microdosing as a
magic bullet or a quick fix thatwants to give all their power
away to microdosing is not agood fit for the microdosing
protocol.
And then people that are.
(32:43):
Potentially not ready to haveeither big shifts in their lives
or subtle shifts in their livesare not suitable for micro
dosing.
As you've worked with so manypeople.
Even tiny doses can create hugeshifts and we have to be ready
for that.
And Sometimes people aren'tready for that.
especially people that have beenthrough complex trauma, it's
more comfortable to staytraumatized or to stay stuck
(33:06):
than it is to expand or grow andevolve.
And so people really have to beready to change and transform in
the ways that could potentiallybe stewarded from microdosing.
And the research shows that,microdosing has the potential to
steward neuro neurogenesis andneuroplasticity.
And what We're understandingfrom that is that
(33:26):
neuroplasticity and neurogenesisis the growth of new neurons new
ways of thinking and reacting tothe world, new thought patterns,
but that in and of itself isinherently neutral.
So it can be positivelyinfluenced or negatively
influenced.
We are.
We influence our ownneuroplasticity in our brains.
We change our brains based onwhat we think, based on our
(33:46):
behaviors, based on the actionswe take.
I know that you teach a lotabout this and a lot of the
coaching that you do have seen alot of your work as well, and I
really appreciate you that forthat.
So, we empower people torecognize the role that they
play in their own healingprocess, and if they don't, If
they aren't willing to reallystep up to the altar and take
that accountability and havethat sovereignty and ownership,
(34:08):
then they're not suitable formicrodosing.
And then, of course, these highrisk populations like
schizophrenia, psychosis,bipolar disorder, uh, are much
higher risk and I can't reallyspeak to that.
That's not really my lane ofexpertise, but might not be
suitable for microdosing becausemicrodosing could potentially
exacerbate those symptoms.
(34:28):
I know there are, there is goingto be research in that area.
So I don't want to speak toomuch to that, but there's
certain, populations of peoplethat are much higher risk and
then individuals that are on alitany of psychiatric drugs.
They, it is recommended toslowly taper.
I don't want to say I'mrecommending this, but, from the
risk potential of combiningmicrodosing with so many
(34:51):
different psychiatric drugs, DrBen Malcolm, our clinical
pharmacist, he speaks about it'simportant to not have so many
different drugs.
at play.
So, people that are on five orsix drugs would probably have to
titrate down to maybe one or twoto start microdosing and with
the intention of using themicrodosing to safely come off
of these other medications.
So, yeah, I would say those aresome of the individuals that are
(35:14):
not suitable for microdosingright now.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (35:17):
Thank you, and I appreciate that at
the very end, right now.
Something you touched on And inthe beginning the people who
don't want to takeresponsibility for the results
in their life, or they want themicrodose to do the work for
them.
This is something that I noticedand I came to realize relatively
(35:39):
early on.
And I was seeing this patternwith the people I was working
with.
And at a certain point, Irealized like, okay, what's
going on here is let's zoom onand take a look at this and it's
like, part of this is culturalprogramming from the time when
we're very young, we are taughtif your head hurts, you take the
(36:01):
yellow pill, your stomach hurts,you take the blue pill.
If you're feeling anxious, youtake the red pill.
And.
Our Western system of medicineis almost entirely reactive.
You start to feel bad, and thenyou reach for a medicine to make
you feel better.
You start to feel bad, and thenyou reach for something to
(36:21):
alleviate the symptoms of that.
So we're we're brought up inthis society where medicine
makes us, it's supposed to makeus better.
And again, like you said, wegive our power away to the
thing, the medication, thepharmaceutical, whatever it is.
So for many people, it's verycounterintuitive.
(36:42):
The best way to manage ourhealth our wellbeing, our
physical wellbeing, ourpsychological wellbeing is not a
reactive way of doing things.
It's more proactive.
And with our Western medicalsystem being so.
The flip side to that is moretraditional forms of medicine,
(37:04):
like, traditional Chinesemedicine Amazonian shamanism,
like really more culturallytraditional medicines or forms
of healthcare.
Where it's, they don't wait tillyou're sick to give you
something.
The purpose of traditionalChinese medicine, when you're
working with a traditionalChinese medicine practitioner,
they work with you on a regularbasis to, to try to keep you at
(37:26):
optimal health.
And they monitor you.
If you start to fall off alittle bit they give you
something to bring you back inalignment so that you don't have
those big pitfalls, so that youdon't fall into a deep state of
depression, so that you're notinto in this hole that you have
to dig yourself out of.
Taking responsibility for ourown well being is.
(37:47):
It's not something we're taught,quite frankly.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (37:50):
Yeah.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (37:51):
It's just not.
We're very much taught theopposite.
Take something to make you feelbetter.
It takes a lot for people tobreak out of that, quite
frankly.
In a lot of ways, it's, it ismore comfortable to just say,
Oh, the pill didn't work.
The doctor gave me the wrongpill.
Put the onus on the healthcaresystem for our own well being
(38:11):
and ultimately when people startto take responsibility for the
things we put into our body, theenvironments we put ourselves
in, the amount of sleep we get,the amount of stress we choose
to expose ourselves to.
I think when that starts toshift and For people who micro
dosing is potentially a betterfit are going to be people who
(38:33):
are ready to, it's almost alifestyle.
It's a way of being like you arein control of your well being
and people who recognize thatand live by that will quite
often do exceedingly better.
With getting results from amicrodosing protocol.
So what you said there isincredibly powerful and I think
(38:53):
speaks to a more of our societyat large and the fact that some
people that there are groups ofpeople who for lack of better
word are in that.
Programming or in that mentalenvironment and they choose to
see things that way.
And until some, until theychoose to take ownership of
their own wellbeing, it's.
(39:14):
Even if somebody couldpotentially benefit from
microdose, if they don't havethe right mindset and I'm
curious about the, the screeningprocess and intake process that
you teach to your facilitators,but if somebody is not, they
might check all the boxes, butif they don't have the right
mindset they're still not goingto get the results.
Yeah, with the facilitators andas you start to roll out this
(39:36):
training, how much of anemphasis do you put on the, the
state of like the person'smindset who's coming in and like
the potential microdosingclient?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (39:47):
Yeah.
Thank you for everything thatyou saId.
I really appreciate you speakingto the cultural conditioning and
programming that we're workingwith and how difficult it can be
to help people evolve out ofthat.
And so, we don't expect peopleto come in with the mindset of
That they actually know how toapproach these medicines.
(40:08):
That's why we teach ourpractitioners how to teach
people that as long as someonecomes in with the mindset of
openness and willing to learn, Ithink that's the best mindset
that they can come intosomething that's really
important that I teach about is,so much of what.
Just kind of zooming out thecultural context that we're
(40:28):
working in right now is that,psychedelics are schedule one
drugs.
They're illegal and they've beensuppressed.
And the more that we do thiswork and liberate them, we it's
important that we don't.
Create the relationship withpsychedelics from a colonized
lens, meaning what can I getfrom this medicine?
Or what can it do for me?
(40:49):
And if we approach it in thatway, it's negating the fact that
we're taking in anotherconsciousness into our body.
And so we really teachpractitioners to teach their
clients around that.
This is like a triad or quadratrelationship that people are
working with.
It's the relationship of thefacilitator and the client.
It's a relationship with theclient and the medicine.
The facilitator has arelationship with the medicine
(41:11):
and then there's the spiritworld as well.
So there's so many differentrelationships that are
happening.
And it's important that we bringthat into existence and
acknowledge these differentrelationships that are forming.
And we really teach people Howto form a healthy, loving
relationship with the substanceto speak to the medicine, to
have conversations with it, tounderstand that it's a
(41:33):
reciprocal relationship.
Like how do I give and receiveto this medicine instead of
approaching it from thiscolonizing mindset of what can I
get from this?
What can it do for me?
What can it take away from me?
Like how can I use this to heal?
Give back to community, to giveback to myself, to expand, to
learn, to grow and evolve.
Like I feel like me being onthis podcast today, even you
(41:54):
being here, this is giving backto the medicines for how much
that they've helped us.
I feel the medicine speakingthrough me when I say that.
So it's really about.
Approaching it as a relationshipand we, like you said, we're not
conditioned to approachsubstances and relationship at
all.
We don't bring, we're notconditioned to bring
intentionality to substances orto relationship.
(42:16):
And that's some of what I teachas well, like in the program
around interrupting addictionwith psychedelics.
I literally teach people tobring the same intentionality
and reverence and love to thedrugs that they're addicted to
the drugs that they're wantingto bring into their body.
Like, I think thatintentionality and that
relationship is so healing forpeople.
And so I think, yeah, having themindset of, we have to teach the
(42:39):
mindset, that we want with ourclients.
We have to teach people what itmeans to be in reciprocity with
medicine, what it means to be inrelationship with medicine, what
it means to listen to a medicineand acknowledge that we're
bringing.
another consciousness into ourbodies.
I believe that these plantfungal spirit molecules, they
want to learn from us as much aswe want to learn from them.
(43:02):
So yeah, it's a mutual lovingrelationship that we have with
them.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (43:06):
That's super powerful and, like, really
touched me emotionally becausethat's how I feel about the
mushrooms, it's like that friendwho I don't talk to all that
often, but when I pick up thephone, they're always there.
They're like, Hey, what's up?
It's so good to hear from youagain.
And we pick up the conversationright where we left off.
And it's always beautiful.
(43:27):
Beautiful.
And there is, it is reciprocal,there is a give and take.
It is a relationship.
I remember I would say that tomy clients.
I said, I can give you, based onyour situation, X, Y, Z, like I
can give you the bestrecommendations, but ultimately
you have to create and formulatea relationship with this
(43:48):
medicine.
I never wanted it to be acodependent sort of relationship
between myself or the person themedicine and the person.
Like having that conversationright up front, I think is
really important because we seecodependency in the Western
medical system everywhere.
It's a part of that system.
Like you, you go on a medicationand you're expected to be on it
(44:10):
for the rest of your life.
That is.
Exactly what codependency isdependency on something.
And I think framing therelationship and microdosing
from the very beginning as.
a relationship that has give andtake and making people aware of
(44:30):
the potentials of codependencywhat that looks like when
they're beginning, like, this issomething different.
This can be something that'scompletely different.
This can be, A special likerelationship between you and
this medicine, like I can helpgive you the tools and the
information and even give it toyou, but ultimately the results
(44:50):
that you get in your experiencewith it is going to be dependent
upon how you treat it and
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (44:56):
Yes.
Hmm.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1419 (44:58):
you is going to be a reflection of
how you treat it in yourthoughts, in your actions, and
how you talk about it.
And I even think so far as to,if you're hiding it.
If it's something that's thatyou treat as a dirty little
secret, like that energy is inyour interaction with it.
And, I understand that there aregoing to be situations where
(45:19):
it's maybe not ideal forsomebody to be, broadcasting
Their personal relationship withmushrooms or microdosing, like,
I totally get that.
And I always think back to theTerence McKenna quote, and I'm
going to paraphrase it, butit's, if you're quiet about the
positive experiences you havewith these medicines, You're
(45:40):
doing the man's work for him.
And I remember when I firstheard that it just like, hit me
like a lightning bolt.
If I'm in the closet about myexperiences and I'm scared to
talk about them, I'm doing theman's work for him.
I'm doing the work that likethese oppressive systems and
these old cultural mindsets andthese, just this old way of
(46:02):
being, like I am perpetuating,I'm doing exactly what they want
me to do.
I'm perpetuating this.
the stigma around this medicine.
And I remember when I heardthat, I was like, Oh, I guess I
can never be in the closetagain.
Like, I will.
Okay.
Yeah, I guess I'm just, I'm out,I'm open about it.
(46:24):
And wow, like that's incrediblypowerful.
And, Something you touched on,and I'd like to, I'd like to get
into a little bit more herebefore we wind this down, is
zooming out and looking at thebroader landscape of the
legality and the accessibilityto these medicines.
And I guess, as somebody who'sreally in the space, and
(46:48):
somebody who's kind of leadingthe charge, so to speak, what
are you seeing and what are yourthoughts and what do you see for
the future of microdosing as faras accessibility and doctors
being able to prescribe it andthis being a more viable option
for people on a broad scale,
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (47:03):
The revolution will not just be
medicalized.
I think that medicalization isincredibly important.
And my prayer is that there willbe multiple pathways for access.
I, speaking to this historicalcontext the war on drugs.
primarily impacts marginalizedcommunities and people of color.
(47:25):
And if we just medicalizepsychedelics, this, the people
that have been most impacted bythe war on drugs will never gain
access to these medicines.
And so I'm really passionateabout having the access be
expanded to anyone that wantsto, I want people to have their
own relationship with thesesubstances.
Back when I worked ondecriminalized nature, Oakland,
we talked about, it's similarto.
(47:47):
Growing vegetables or growingfruit.
Like you can buy blueberries atthe farmer's market.
You can grow your ownblueberries, or you can buy
blueberries from, the market atthe store and it's gone through
11 different refrigeratorsbefore it gets to your home.
And I don't grow.
Blueberries.
But and I'm sure that it'snuanced with different, what it
means to be organic versus notand different licenses that you
(48:09):
need to be a mass scaleblueberry grower.
But, there's no regulation on mehaving a blueberry farm.
If I want to do that in mybackyard.
So at least that I'm aware of.
So, I think it's important thatmedicalization exists.
I want there to have, People tohave access to doctors that can
and therapists that canfacilitate these experiences and
(48:30):
I think there should be personaluse.
I think recreational use can bereally healing for people.
I think there should besupported use.
I think it's so important thatas we roll out any type of
legalization that we don'treplicate the same system as
cannabis that came out where, itreally prevented legacy growers
and people from having their ownbusinesses.
(48:51):
And now it's just more of likecorporate licensure.
I think religious use is a partof it.
Ceremonial use.
Like how do we protect the factthat there's a huge lineage
behind psychedelics, that havebeen used for.
Thousands and thousands ofyears, not just by indigenous
communities, but the originalancestors that I learned about
from my business partner, Adam,is, the first ancestors of
(49:13):
psychedelics were animals.
We learned about psychedelicsand microdosing from animals.
So, this is, I think it'simportant that we view this as
more of like a birthright tohave a healthy relationship with
these substances and to notlimit the access to just one
particular Avenue.
And I, I work with differentstatewide initiatives and they
(49:34):
see this too, so I'm reallyexcited that there's going to
hopefully be multiple differentsites.
Lanes of access for individualsand at the centerpiece for me is
education and that's what wepromise City Council in Oakland.
That's what I, my work is allabout education, and really
approaching this.
(49:54):
Third wave of psychedelics isapproaching it with supported
use, with intentionality, witheducation, with harm reduction.
And if we can do that, then Ireally think that we're going to
be able to steward this movementmoving forward in a really great
way.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024 (50:09):
allowing people to have their own
relationship with the medicineon their terms.
along with education, like yousaid, is, I think, the most
reasonable, logical, and ethicalway forward.
And, what you said there about,allowing people to have
recreational experiences with itand not stigmatize it or call it
(50:32):
bad or illegal or criminalizepeople for wanting to have that
experience or non medical, innon medical context, like you
said, you mentioned recreationaland just different contexts,
like personal growth even, orceremonial use.
That's super powerful and Whatyou were saying about allowing
people to have their ownrelationship with the medicine,
(50:54):
whether that's grow itthemselves, get it from somebody
they know, so that they are notrequired to go through some
other system or through a doctoror through some sort of, jump
through a bunch of hoops.
I think it's really importantbecause Like you said, the
(51:14):
mushrooms, they grow wild.
These are like, how do youlegislate something that is a
part of nature on some, in somesense that just.
that is completely makes nosense whatsoever.
I have grown mushrooms prettyextensively myself and just that
experience, like anybody who'sgot a garden knows what that's
(51:36):
like, like, eating the foodthat's out of your garden and
eating mushrooms and usingmushrooms that you've grown
yourself and put your energyinto and your excitement and
gone through the whole processit's a completely different
experience.
There's just no.
Other way to put it, like whenyou take them from spore all the
(51:57):
way to ceremony, it is like theexperience is just different and
it's hard to put a value, anumber of value on that.
It's hard to, it's hard to likereally pinpoint what that
difference is.
But there is a.
An intangible level of depth tothe experience that you have
(52:17):
with your own, with the medicineyou've grown yourself.
That includes cannabis, thatincludes food from your garden,
food is medicine in my belief.
And especially with psilocybintoo, that holds true for
psilocybin.
And if people knew how reallyeasy it is to grow psilocybin, I
think more people would do it.
(52:38):
And if it, for real, it's reallynot that hard.
They grow on cow patties out inthe pasture, in the right, with
the right amount of humidity.
So it's like If people, if morepeople knew how easy it was and
that they could in just a couplebatches grow enough for a year
or two for an entire family.
(52:58):
I mean, it's They're super,prolific.
It doesn't require a lot of timeor money or space or fancy
equipment to grow enoughmushrooms that you can start to
develop that relationship onyour own.
And I super appreciate yourpatience.
Your acknowledgment of that andthe fact that it doesn't need to
be a medicalized thing.
It can just be a regular thingthat people who choose to can
(53:21):
engage with if they want.
And giving people that, thatpersonal freedom and the ability
to develop that relationship ontheir terms.
If they choose to.
And so that's, I love that.
I love that.
And it is my belief too that ata certain point it's just not
going to make sense to, tocontinue to criminalize people
(53:42):
for having these medicines andif we have common sense laws
that allow regular people to doregular things like grow them
that will help alleviate thestigma around it and that's
There will be more people willbe interested in self educating
in that circumstance because youhave to learn a little bit more
(54:02):
about it.
And I think the cornerstone ofwhat you said is education, like
how vitally important educationis.
And, to wrap this up and bringit full circle all the way back
to the microdosing facilitatortraining, which is incredibly
focused on Education educatingthe people so that they can
educate the people that they'reworking with.
(54:23):
That's such a beautifuloffering.
And, I'm going to leave the lastword to you if there's I know
you mentioned the dates, butyeah, could you please let us
know how we can get ahold of youthe website for the facilitator
training your differentofferings.
It sounds like you got a lotgoing on.
So please tell us how people canget Involved in and interact
(54:43):
with the offerings that youpresent
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (54:45):
Thank you so much.
And thank you so much for havingme on the podcast and being, for
the work that you do with yourclients in the field and work
that you have done for so longand for, platforming our work
with the microdosing facilitatortraining and flow state.
I really appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
So the ways that.
(55:06):
People can connect with us.
Our new website is going to belive in just a couple of days.
It's flowstatenow.
com or microdosing.
training ormicrodosingfacilitatortraining.
They all go to the same place,but primarily flowstatenow.
com and I also have, The SanFrancisco Psychedelic Society,
(55:26):
which is a nonprofit that I'mthe director of.
You can find me on Instagram,connect with D and LinkedIn and
Facebook.
And yeah, for anyone that'sinterested in joining our
training, the first Day of ournext cohort is January 19th.
We love to have calls withpeople.
If people are interested injoining the training, we always
(55:46):
give a call for anyone toexplore the training to see if
it's the right fit for them.
We would be honored to haveanyone that's part of your
community join our trainingprogram.
And I'm always available as wellto connect with people and
provide support andconsultation.
And, I.
I live my life in dedication tothis psychedelic work and make
(56:08):
myself very accessible forpeople.
So I'm really honored to dothat.
And thank you again for theopportunity to present today.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_ (56:16):
daniel.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I appreciate you deeply Althoughall the links for your websites
will be in the show notes foranybody who wants to see them We
will have to touch base and dothis again I'm sure you'll have
more offerings coming out andi'd love to hear as this program
evolves and grows i'd love tosee you know, maybe a year from
now year and a half from nowwhere things go And and just
(56:39):
More broadly, with thedecriminalization of
psychedelics on the forefront,like, I appreciate your work,
and thank you for coming on, andyeah, I have a feeling this
won't be the last chat that wehave.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (56:51):
You might see us in other countries.
We just got our first Thailandstudent.
Thailand just legalizedpsilocybin therapy.
I did not know just recently.
Yeah, so we just got a newstudent from Thailand, someone
from the UK.
So we're going global and I'mexcited to.
To expand to, otherjurisdictions that aren't as
(57:12):
psychedelically informed as weare.
So yeah, we'll see where thefractal of expansion takes us.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (57:18):
Can't wait, I can't wait to see, and
I'm looking forward to seeingwhere this all goes to.
Alright everybody, be well andtake care.
I lost my ability to talk, walk,
(00:01):
function.
I had a brain injury andpsychedelics brought me back to
life and over many years, Icompletely transformed out of
the identity of addiction intoliberation of my soul into
purpose.
And realized that, it was.
All a part of my journey.
I believe that our greatestgifts lie in our greatest
(00:24):
struggles.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (00:24):
what do you see for the future of
microdosing as far asaccessibility and doctors being
able to prescribe it and thisbeing a more viable option for
people on a broad scale,
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (00:34):
The revolution will not just be
medicalized.
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Came (00:38):
what is up, and welcome to another
episode of the Complete RetreatPodcast, where we talk to
retreat creators and retreatindustry experts about what it
takes to create a thrivingretreat business.
Did you know that you can make aretreat for just about anything?
In this episode, I talk withDanielle Nova, who is the
Executive Director of the SanFrancisco Psychedelic Society
(01:01):
and one of the co founders ofFlowState, which is a company
that provides training and hostsretreats for microdosing
practitioners.
Danielle and I have a greatconversation.
We talk all things micro dosingand psychedelics and she really
helped open my eyes to thepossibilities for when it might
be appropriate or when a retreatcould really help bolster a
(01:23):
business and help to provideanother layer of value to the
customers of a business.
I love what she's doing and I'mreally excited for you to hear
what she has to say.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (01:34):
what are you excited about?
What's present with you rightnow?
What's going on in Danielle'slife that's, that, that really
lights you up and that you'reexcited to put into the world?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (01:44):
I'm just I'm feeling so excited
about this new business thatI've been starting with my
business partner, Adam Bramlage.
We just started a new companycalled Flow State.
And this company focuses ontraining, mentorship, and
leadership.
and retreats and consultationfor microdosing practitioners.
(02:07):
So it's the parent company ofthe microdosing facilitator
training.
And We have a lot of differentofferings that are underneath
this umbrella.
So primarily we have themicrodosing facilitator training
and then, and I'll go into that.
But after people go through thetraining program, then we
provide ongoing consultation forour facilitators.
(02:28):
We know that the facilitationjourney begins once people take
the training, and so we provideongoing mentorship, guidance,
consultation, both on thebusiness end of their
facilitation practices, but alsoa place where practitioners are
going to process their caseloadswith experts in the facilitation
community.
And then we're doing in personretreats with thought leaders
(02:51):
like Dr.
Jim Fadiman, Manesh Gurn fromUCSF and different individuals
in the psychedelic space wherewe're bringing people together
in Santa Cruz, California tolaunch their microdosing
facilitation businesses, whichis really exciting.
I feel like so much in thepsychedelic space is teaching
people how to facilitate theseexperiences, but it doesn't
(03:13):
focus on Well, what aboutlaunching your own business and
all the energy that it takes toput into that from the marketing
and to, the businessinfrastructure business plan.
So, that's what the retreat'sgoing to focus on.
And then we also provide one onone coaching for practitioners
to help them take their ideasand create an entrepreneurial
(03:35):
journey for them and map outtheir entire facilitation
business.
So.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis new project.
It's lighting me up.
And yeah it's the mostmeaningful project I've ever put
into existence on earth.
So I'm just really grateful forthe opportunity to steward it.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (03:53):
That's super exciting.
And again, one of the reasonsthat I reached out to you
specifically because of themicrodose facilitator training,
I wanted to know more about thatand learn more about that
specific offering that you'redoing.
I think I mentioned to youbefore that I've I've personally
spent three or four yearshelping people on their
(04:15):
microdosing journey,facilitating those journeys for
people, and the information youneed to know and the experience
you need to have to be able toadequately and safely and
effectively guide somebodythrough a microdosing journey,
especially if they're coming toit as somebody who doesn't have
any prior experience withpsychedelics.
(04:36):
There's a lot of.
Knowledge that you need to haveto impart on the people that
you're working with and it's abit of a Sensitive subject or
it's getting somebody startedwith micro dosing can
potentially be requires somefinesse and the ability to
sometimes work with veryvulnerable people or people who
(04:58):
are dealing with certain thingsin their life.
If people are feeling great andtheir life is all in order,
they're probably not coming toyou for microdosing.
So, having the ability to knowhow to deal with different
people in different situations.
Life situations is reallyimportant.
So I'd love to know more aboutthe facilitator training, but I
think first it would be reallyawesome to, to get a little bit
(05:21):
of background and hear how youeven came to this place.
Like what led you to, to wantingto bring this into the world?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (05:29):
Hmm.
I appreciate how you appreciatethe Intention and integrity
behind the complexity ofnavigating microdosing
experiences for other people andthe importance that the training
provides.
Thank you so much that I reallyvalue your appreciation for the
(05:50):
work.
And So what brought me into thisspace?
So I've been using psychedelicsfor over 20 years and I was
actually quite a psychedelicadvocate when I was in high
school, doing MDMA, going toraves, educating my peers about
psychedelics.
Of course, back then it wasentirely stigmatized and I was
not being heard amongst mypeers.
(06:13):
But during that time, I ended upexperiencing a lot of trauma in
high school and my dad is adoctor.
My mom's a counselor.
They sent me to a psychiatrist.
I was put on a litany ofprescription drugs like
antidepressants, moodstabilizers, ADHD medications,
sleeping medications, and thenbecame severely addicted to
(06:36):
Oxycontin was in and out of.
Eight different treatmentcenters throughout my twenties,
I was a complete slave toaddiction.
I believe I had the disease ofaddiction and all these mental
health issues.
And was prescribed hundreds ofpsychiatric drugs and was told I
was going to be, have to be ondrugs for the rest of my life,
that I was going to be an addictfor the rest of my life, that I
(06:57):
had no future, that I, yeah, itwas just completely
Disencouraged to be a humanbeing, really, and to just
believe that I had all theseissues and that I had to take
drugs for the rest of my life.
And then one day I, Ended upjust having a spiritual
awakening and realized that Iwas taking all of these drugs to
(07:19):
help myself and I had beensuicidally depressed for 15
years and realized maybe thedrugs were my problem.
So I slowly pulled myself offall these medications and.
And it completely debilitatedme.
I lost my ability to talk, walk,function.
I had a brain injury andpsychedelics brought me back to
(07:41):
life and snapped me out of thisreally intense withdrawal
syndrome that I had beenexperiencing.
Specifically, ayahuasca, I beganmicrodosing.
With psilocybin and then LSD, Idid sessions with Iboga and over
many years, I completelytransformed out of the identity
of addiction into liberation ofmy soul into purpose.
(08:02):
And realized that, it was.
All a part of my journey.
And I'm so grateful for myaddiction, honestly, because it
brought me to my purpose on thisplanet.
And I'm so grateful for thesuffering that I went through,
because it brought me to thisconversation here with you
today.
I believe that our greatestgifts lie in our greatest
struggles.
And yeah the.
(08:23):
The 15 years that I spent aslave to addiction was my
training program to, whichbrought me to the work that I'm
doing now.
Oh
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (08:30):
Well, that's super powerful.
Thank you for sharing.
HypeMiC & FaceTime HD Came (08:34):
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ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955 (09:32):
I know that's a lot to have to
bring up into To bring to thelight and it sounds like you've
done a lot of work to come toterms with that and just your
perspective around that It'svery much in alignment with my
perspective on the things thatwe deal with in life our
challenges those are the thingsthat help make us who we are and
teach us The biggest lessons Ipersonally I nearly died from
(09:56):
prescription medication.
Oh, almost 11 years ago.
And now I was put on amedication that was supposed to
make me better.
And I nearly bled to death frominternal bleeding.
And
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-202 (10:07):
my God.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141955 (10:08):
I consider that the.
The worst, best thing that everhappened to me and had a near
death experience essentially andthat was really the start of my
journey and trying to figure outwhat the hell is going on with
life and what's life all aboutand just really seeking from
that point.
(10:29):
And so, yeah, that story is verypowerful.
And I hope that.
People hear that and are in aplace that is really challenging
right now.
Like anybody who hears thatanything is possible.
Like it's, and it's really inhow we perceive and choose to
(10:50):
perceive the situations thatwe're in dictate how we react to
them and how we are able to moveforward.
So much of our.
Our experience in life as humanbeings on this planet is
dictated by our perceptions andwe get to choose whether or not
something is bad or good, bad orgood or just labels that we
(11:13):
place on our experiences or thethings in our experience and
just as we choose to labelsomething as bad, we can so
easily choose to label things asgood and the fact that you've
made that choice, I think isreally inspiring and that
anybody can achieve that and itjust requires work a lot of work
(11:36):
and there's a process toeverything in life, but that's
super beautiful.
Thank you for sharing yourstory.
And I guess what?
So you sound like you tried manydifferent modalities.
Natural medicine, plantmedicine, alternative healing,
whatever you want to call it.
From ayahuasca to iboga andmicrodosing.
So what specifically aboutmicrodosing or psilocybin in
(12:00):
general?
Drew you to, to the path ofwhere you are now helping teach
facilitators that
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (12:09):
Yeah.
Thank you for saying all that.
And I honor you as well for whatyou've been through almost dying
from that medication and thejourney that you've been on to,
to overcome that is incrediblypowerful and yeah, just
receiving that.
Experience from you as well isamazing.
Thank you for all the work thatyou've done on yourself.
(12:30):
So yeah, for the past, let'ssee, after I overcame the, well,
the overcoming addiction wasquite a long process and I feel
like I'm still going through itand it's layers and layers.
It's not just one moment wherewe suddenly overcome addiction.
It's, So many different layersfrom releasing the physical
withdrawals to now it's aroundreleasing the identity of
(12:54):
addiction and the belief offeeling to understanding that we
can feel safe in the worldbeyond needing to take
substances and I think we Aspeople that go through
addiction, we get programmed ata very young age that we have to
be reliant on something for therest of our lives.
So it's a long unlearningprocess there.
(13:16):
And ultimately the place thatI'm at now is healing the
underlying root causes that ledme to my addiction in the first
place.
Cause that's what I understandnow.
It's not about the drugs beingaddictive.
It's not about the, even theaddiction itself.
It's about what leads a personto want to escape themselves.
And to, allow people to, toreconnect with how amazing they
are as human beings and to wantto create a life that we don't
(13:39):
want to run away from.
And that's really what the workhas been for me of like, I've
now created a life that I don'twant to.
I don't want to run away fromit.
I don't want to escape myself.
I want to be here, be in thisexistence because I feel so much
meaning and purpose now when Iwant that for other people.
So for the last five years, I'vebeen creating educational
(13:59):
programs for over 25, 000 peopleworldwide through my work at the
San Francisco PsychedelicSociety.
I also was on the founding teamof Decriminalize Nature Oakland.
We passed the first resolutionto decriminalize all entheogenic
Plants and fungi in the city ofOakland, which spread a global
movement where over a dozencities have adopted our same
(14:20):
language.
And throughout that time, Icreated two microdosing courses
in collaboration with AdamBramlage, Dr.
Jim Fadiman And otherpractitioners that we
collaborated with, and we hadover 3000 people worldwide go
through our programs with microdosing, many of which are
(14:41):
practitioners and doctors andnurses and all different types
of individuals.
And after we created theseprograms.
Programs that were more focusedon teaching people how to
microdose on their own, we saw aneed for more of a professional
training for practitioners to beable to guide their clients
through microdosing protocols.
And so, yeah, that's what led tothis next training, this new
(15:03):
training program that we'vedeveloped.
From all the work that we didteaching people and as well,
I've been working as amicrodosing coach for five
years, working one on one withpeople and have a lot of
experience, navigating differentcomplex scenarios and cases with
individuals, just like yourself.
So I think, That experience thatI've gained as well as that Adam
(15:25):
is gained.
We saw a need to develop thistraining program and also
there's so many incredibleteachers.
We have over 20 guest teachersand faculty on our faculty of
this training program,highlighting all these different
areas.
Because just like you saidearlier, there's a lot of
different complex cases that aregoing to come to microdosing
experiences, and it's verynuanced in our approach.
(15:47):
So, that's why we have so manydifferent teachers from all
these different areas ofexpertise to be able to train
our practitioners to have themost comprehensive and holistic
training on microdosing.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (16:00):
having a support system that is that
robust and extensive, wherethere are different doctors who
with different specialties thatyou could reach out to or lean
on or ask questions to.
And even just the support systemwithin the facilitator training
itself is.
Like, the value in that cannotbe understated.
(16:22):
I mean, People would come to melooking for relief from all
kinds of things.
This was back in the day when Iwas.
Still facilitating microdosingfrom tinnitus, ringing of the
ears, cancer patients, peoplewith different neurological
disorders, people with traumaticbrain injuries, people with
(16:42):
autism, people on the spectrum.
One of the beautiful thingsabout psilocybin is that it's
such a diverse medicine.
It can really help people with aan incredible range of ailments.
And in order to be able to helpa range of people effectively,
there's different protocols anddifferent applications, and even
(17:06):
different strains, differentamounts, different frequencies
of microdosing for differentpeople in different situations.
And, even though.
Somebody may personally have alot of experience.
Like that information is notjust intuitive.
You don't, you're not just goingto know exactly how and what.
Somebody is going to need andhaving that database of
(17:29):
information that you can rely onthrough a training like yours or
being associated with a grouplike yours, if somebody is
listening to this, and they'rethinking about wanting to be a
micro dosing facilitator orprovide this medicine for people
in this way, I cannot underscorethe importance of what Danielle
is doing and the amount ofinformation and knowledge that
(17:50):
she's, gathered as a resource,because there are going to be so
many times where somebody comesto you for help and you're just
going to think, Oh, that, thatis a completely random
situation.
What the hell do I do with that?
How am I going to help thisperson?
Is there a situation wheremicrodosing could help this
(18:11):
person potentially, probably,maybe?
But like you're going to have,you're going to be doing a lot
of your own research, a lot ofreading and just having that
resource again, that you'reproviding with this is, it's
something I never had.
And looking back at it now, it'slike, how different would things
have been?
Like, how much easier would ithave been if I had that kind of
a support system?
(18:32):
So that's an incrediblyvaluable.
thing that you're puttingtogether.
And I just want to thank you foryour work and bringing those
resources together for people ina single space where people can
have access to such a variety ofinformation and people who are
really experts in the field.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (18:51):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for, I reallyappreciate you seeing the value
in it.
And, I feel like our work is tocreate and be the person that we
wish we had.
And that's part of why I createdthis program, is because.
There's not enough ofindividuals that are
(19:12):
understanding how to ethicallyhold these spaces.
And I think people really wantto and aren't resourced to.
And that's why we've covered somany of our bases with this
training from, we have Dr.
Ben Malcolm, who teaches usabout medication
contraindications.
He's a clinical pharmacist andHow to safely support people
that decide to titrate off ofmedications and which
(19:34):
medications are higher risk tocombine with micro dosing.
We, we get to learn about theactual research and the studies
that are being done on microdosing from the researchers
themselves.
And people can ask themquestions.
All of our classes are live.
So people get to access thesepractitioners.
We even have my friend ReggieHarris from from hyphae labs.
(19:55):
He's been doing all of thisresearch on the underground
where people submit samples ofpsilocybin mushroom strains, and
they've identified hundreds ofdifferent strains and which
strains are more suitable formicro dosing, which strains are
more suitable for macro dosing.
And the nuances there, becausejust like you were talking
about, it's important thatpractitioners understand these
differences.
(20:16):
We I have, we just did ourtraining session last night that
taught about navigating complextrauma and microdosing and how
to navigate that as apractitioner and when to refer
out and how to support people intheir sexual liberation process.
I teach about microdosing forinterrupting addiction and
different specific tools tonavigate.
(20:37):
Help people navigate thatprocess.
We have intake forms.
We have a whole process that wetake people through.
And and really our mission withthis is to standardize the
protocol and the support systemsfor microdosing and to have a
community of support wherepeople can bring their complex
cases.
They can bring their complexquestions and they can get them
(20:57):
Answer it in community and wedon't have to just guess
anymore.
And so I'm really, yeah, I feellike it's incredible what we've
developed and we're really atthe infancy phase of it as well.
Like this year, we're bringingon 5 new teachers and our guest
faculty and incredible thoughtleaders into the program.
We have had 55 studentsworldwide join our 1st cohort
(21:19):
and we're launching our 2ndcohort, which starts in January.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (21:23):
That is super exciting.
And I started facilitatingmicrodosing for people back in
2019, so it's been about fiveyears since I was really heavily
involved with that.
And there was next to nothing.
There was a couple of books andnot a lot of research.
And even still today, I mean,there, there's still,
(21:43):
comparatively speaking, There'snot a ton of research
specifically about microdosing,so gathering that information is
a, if you're doing it byyourself, is a very time
consuming task, and it's justreally a labor of love.
And I know there are a lot ofpeople who are really good
intentioned, who want to getinto helping others.
(22:06):
Experience positive benefitsfrom working with psilocybin and
microdosing, but the amount oftime and effort it takes to
become competent in this withoutany sort of external guidance.
It's.
It's really a steep hill toclimb and something that you
mentioned that I thought ofbecause I'm coming up on my 20
(22:29):
year anniversary from startingto, from when I first started
working with psilocybin myself,but it'll be in December.
And that's.
When I was taking people on asmicro dosing clients, I would
tell them, I'd say, okay, inthis 90 minute consultation, I'm
going to condense 20, almost 20years of personal experience
(22:49):
into 90 minutes and give youeverything that you need, like
the things that are reallyimportant and really break it
down so you can understand and,but I never got that talk.
Nobody ever Transcribed saidthat to me or sat me down and
was able to have thatconversation with me.
It was something that I had todevelop on my own and it was, it
(23:10):
just took so much time.
And I'm really again, inspiredby the work that you're doing
and, excited that there arepeople out there who are doing
the thing that I wished other, Iwish somebody would do this.
I would continue to think this.
I wish somebody Would put allthis together in a resource and
train other people to do thisbecause I mean, it's kind of the
wild west.
I would, I would, people wouldcome to me.
(23:31):
They're like, Oh, I was workingwith somebody else, or I tried
something else, or I went onlineand I found this forum and I
tried to follow this protocol orit's like, where do I get the
mushrooms from?
And I tried to order from somesketchy website with Bitcoin.
And there's a lot that goes intoit.
And I heard from the people whowould come to me, I wouldn't say
horror stories, but.
(23:51):
people would come to me in astate of frustration and like
they'd spent a lot of timetrying to figure it out on their
own and they didn't get very faror they had results that were
not satisfactory to them.
And the way that you're doing itand the level of competency of
the people that you're workingwith is pretty, pretty
(24:13):
impressive.
So I want to acknowledge thatand kudos to you and I guess
the.
A question that I always have islike, what specifically about
psilocybin?
Because there's a lot ofdifferent things you can
potentially microdose.
What specifically aboutpsilocybin is attractive to you
(24:33):
and makes you want to work withit and develop this whole
protocol around?
psilocybin specifically.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16 (24:40):
That's a great question.
So, at the centerpiece of thistraining is psilocybin and LSD
microdosing.
I believe that psilocybin is themost accessible.
People can grow it in theirhomes.
It's decriminalized.
I think it's like 2 dozen citiesat this point across the U.
S.
And it's the lower lowest riskprofile of the medicines in
(25:05):
terms of the micro dosing, andit's highly researched, at least
in larger doses.
Like you said, there's verylittle We're really at the
infancy phase of microdosingresearch.
There's very little microdosingresearch.
Within the past year, theresearch has increased by 300%.
Dr.
Connor Murray, who is on ourfaculty, he did the first LSD
(25:28):
microdosing study in the U S andthey proved that microdosing is
not a placebo, which is amazing.
So we now have proof that evenat lower doses, there is a An
increase in the BDNF, which isthe brain nootropic growth
factor, and I'm really excitedto see where microdosing
research goes.
It's very limited becausethere's a prohibition on the
(25:52):
participants in the actualstudy, taking the microdose on
their own.
And so there's a study, Ibelieve it's out of Australia
that was able to do that, wherethey let the participants take
it at home.
But.
The current framework forresearch in the U S prohibits
from participants takingmicrodosing on their own.
They have to come in and theclinic.
And so there's a lot of barriersagainst microdosing research
(26:16):
right now, but I think thatwe're going to see a big changes
in that area.
And yeah, psilocybin microdosingis from the research over, I
think it was like over 3 millionpeople or 4 million, million
people worldwide have researchedmicrodosing primarily with
psilocybin.
And yeah, the profile of highrisk and contraindications is a
(26:37):
lot lower with that.
And people can forage it, peoplecan grow it on their own.
And it's, I think it's one ofthe most accessible substances
for people to microdose.
And in terms of LSD microdosingas well, I think that's Higher
accessibility with that as well.
Definitely lower accessibilityof people to be able to access
(26:58):
LSD.
It can be both easy to dose andchallenging to dose as well as
psilocybin easy to dose andchallenging to dose based on the
type of psilocybin.
Based on the type of LSD, theformat it's coming.
And, liquid is a lot easier tomicrodose with LSD versus tabs
of LSD and with psilocybin.
(27:18):
It's just people seem to havegreater access to it because you
can grow your own.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1419 (27:23):
And in regards to demographics and
types of people who mightbenefit from microdosing, in
your experience and with thework you've been doing, are
there any certain profiles ofpeople that have greater results
with it?
Who are you and, the people thatare going through your training,
(27:44):
what is their, target audienceor who is coming to microdosing
and who might benefit from this.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16 (27:51):
That's such a great question.
There's so many differentpopulations of people that can
benefit from microdosing.
I think a lot of the focus rightnow in the psychedelic space is
on helping people that are.
Sick or addicted get well.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
And we train on that.
And we train to help people thatare already doing well, that are
(28:15):
already healthier to get evenfeel even better in their lives.
So it's on such a spectrum frompeople that are dealing with
chronic mental illnesses andbrain injury and trauma and
addiction and.
A lot of most of the populationsI see are people that are on
psychiatric drugs, wanting toget off psychiatric drugs and
(28:35):
wanting to use microdosing tosupport them getting off of
that.
We're really the only trainingprogram in the world that
teaches practitioners how tosupport people that.
Are either interruptingaddiction with microdosing or
helping them get off ofpsychiatric drugs if they so
choose with microdosing, there'smillions of people that are
stuck on psychiatric drugs anddon't know how to get off of
(28:57):
them.
I was one of those people, soI'm so passionate about helping
people that decide that theywant to get off medications
through the use of microdosingand then a big focus is on
helping people just.
Get well that, there's peoplethat are healthy and, but they
don't feel motivated or theydon't feel like they have access
to their creativity or theydon't feel life purpose or
(29:21):
there's areas that they want toexpand.
And they're just interested inthe personal growth attributes
of microdosing or endurance.
There's a lot of people thathave found microdosing can be
helpful for.
Exercise and motivation.
So, we don't really prevent anyspecific person unless someone
is higher risk.
(29:41):
There's definitely higher riskprofiles like mothers or that
are breastfeeding pregnantwomen.
There is some research that isbeing done on breastfeeding
women, people with mitral valvecancer.
I'm Dr.
Noah Herman.
Buh bye.
Bipolar disorder orschizophrenia or psychosis are
much higher risk and need tohave a lot more care and support
around those populations ofpeople.
(30:02):
But we really, view microdosingcan be accessible is, can be
much more accessible for greaterpopulations of people than
potentially macrodosing,definitely for older people as
well.
People that are in theireighties or even nineties,
people that are dealing withAlzheimer's and different.
mental health type ofconditions.
(30:23):
There's, there's, we're reallyat the infancy phase of
understanding its applicationson so many different populations
of people.
But because it's such lowerdoses the risk potential profile
is a lot lower for certainpopulations of people.
And we also have Dr.
Jim Fadiman, who's my mentor.
He's on the training.
He's on the faculty.
(30:43):
We have multiple sessions withhim.
He's the elder, he's the reasonwhy we do this work.
I just want to honor him for allof the work that he's done in
the psychedelic field.
For those that are new to Dr.
Jim Fadiman, he's one of theoriginal researchers.
He's been researchingpsychedelics since the sixties.
He pioneered the firstcreativity research with
psychedelics.
(31:04):
with LSD as well as the firstresearch study with psychedelics
and addiction, he's been, he'sthe reason why microdosing is
popularized in the modern world.
He stewarded that process.
He wrote the first book about itintroducing microdosing.
He's about to come out with hisnew microdosing book.
He's been.
Gathering experience reportsfrom thousands of people
(31:26):
worldwide.
He's the most knowledgeableperson about micro dosing.
And, he said that this trainingis the most comprehensive
training on micro dosing thatexists.
And he shows up for our facultyand our community and answers
all the questions that peoplehave around micro dosing.
And yeah that's, a little bitabout who this is for.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (31:46):
Thank you.
That was very, yeah, verycomprehensive.
I guess the flip side to thatquestion is, are there any
groups of people or populationsthat microdosing is problematic
for, or it's a hard no?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (32:00):
Yes, I love that question.
I think a hard no is someonethat's just looking to
microdosing to do all the workfor them.
A hard no is someone that's notwanting to put in work on
themselves.
We view microdosing as likeriding an electric bike.
You still have to pedal, and itcan accelerate your process, but
(32:22):
you are a participant in thatprocess.
Someone that's looking tomicrodose to solve all their
problems, take away all theirpain to viewing microdosing as a
magic bullet or a quick fix thatwants to give all their power
away to microdosing is not agood fit for the microdosing
protocol.
And then people that are.
(32:43):
Potentially not ready to haveeither big shifts in their lives
or subtle shifts in their livesare not suitable for micro
dosing.
As you've worked with so manypeople.
Even tiny doses can create hugeshifts and we have to be ready
for that.
And Sometimes people aren'tready for that.
especially people that have beenthrough complex trauma, it's
more comfortable to staytraumatized or to stay stuck
(33:06):
than it is to expand or grow andevolve.
And so people really have to beready to change and transform in
the ways that could potentiallybe stewarded from microdosing.
And the research shows that,microdosing has the potential to
steward neuro neurogenesis andneuroplasticity.
And what We're understandingfrom that is that
(33:26):
neuroplasticity and neurogenesisis the growth of new neurons new
ways of thinking and reacting tothe world, new thought patterns,
but that in and of itself isinherently neutral.
So it can be positivelyinfluenced or negatively
influenced.
We are.
We influence our ownneuroplasticity in our brains.
We change our brains based onwhat we think, based on our
(33:46):
behaviors, based on the actionswe take.
I know that you teach a lotabout this and a lot of the
coaching that you do have seen alot of your work as well, and I
really appreciate you that forthat.
So, we empower people torecognize the role that they
play in their own healingprocess, and if they don't, If
they aren't willing to reallystep up to the altar and take
that accountability and havethat sovereignty and ownership,
(34:08):
then they're not suitable formicrodosing.
And then, of course, these highrisk populations like
schizophrenia, psychosis,bipolar disorder, uh, are much
higher risk and I can't reallyspeak to that.
That's not really my lane ofexpertise, but might not be
suitable for microdosing becausemicrodosing could potentially
exacerbate those symptoms.
(34:28):
I know there are, there is goingto be research in that area.
So I don't want to speak toomuch to that, but there's
certain, populations of peoplethat are much higher risk and
then individuals that are on alitany of psychiatric drugs.
They, it is recommended toslowly taper.
I don't want to say I'mrecommending this, but, from the
risk potential of combiningmicrodosing with so many
(34:51):
different psychiatric drugs, DrBen Malcolm, our clinical
pharmacist, he speaks about it'simportant to not have so many
different drugs.
at play.
So, people that are on five orsix drugs would probably have to
titrate down to maybe one or twoto start microdosing and with
the intention of using themicrodosing to safely come off
of these other medications.
So, yeah, I would say those aresome of the individuals that are
(35:14):
not suitable for microdosingright now.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (35:17):
Thank you, and I appreciate that at
the very end, right now.
Something you touched on And inthe beginning the people who
don't want to takeresponsibility for the results
in their life, or they want themicrodose to do the work for
them.
This is something that I noticedand I came to realize relatively
(35:39):
early on.
And I was seeing this patternwith the people I was working
with.
And at a certain point, Irealized like, okay, what's
going on here is let's zoom onand take a look at this and it's
like, part of this is culturalprogramming from the time when
we're very young, we are taughtif your head hurts, you take the
(36:01):
yellow pill, your stomach hurts,you take the blue pill.
If you're feeling anxious, youtake the red pill.
And.
Our Western system of medicineis almost entirely reactive.
You start to feel bad, and thenyou reach for a medicine to make
you feel better.
You start to feel bad, and thenyou reach for something to
(36:21):
alleviate the symptoms of that.
So we're we're brought up inthis society where medicine
makes us, it's supposed to makeus better.
And again, like you said, wegive our power away to the
thing, the medication, thepharmaceutical, whatever it is.
So for many people, it's verycounterintuitive.
(36:42):
The best way to manage ourhealth our wellbeing, our
physical wellbeing, ourpsychological wellbeing is not a
reactive way of doing things.
It's more proactive.
And with our Western medicalsystem being so.
The flip side to that is moretraditional forms of medicine,
(37:04):
like, traditional Chinesemedicine Amazonian shamanism,
like really more culturallytraditional medicines or forms
of healthcare.
Where it's, they don't wait tillyou're sick to give you
something.
The purpose of traditionalChinese medicine, when you're
working with a traditionalChinese medicine practitioner,
they work with you on a regularbasis to, to try to keep you at
(37:26):
optimal health.
And they monitor you.
If you start to fall off alittle bit they give you
something to bring you back inalignment so that you don't have
those big pitfalls, so that youdon't fall into a deep state of
depression, so that you're notinto in this hole that you have
to dig yourself out of.
Taking responsibility for ourown well being is.
(37:47):
It's not something we're taught,quite frankly.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (37:50):
Yeah.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_141 (37:51):
It's just not.
We're very much taught theopposite.
Take something to make you feelbetter.
It takes a lot for people tobreak out of that, quite
frankly.
In a lot of ways, it's, it ismore comfortable to just say,
Oh, the pill didn't work.
The doctor gave me the wrongpill.
Put the onus on the healthcaresystem for our own well being
(38:11):
and ultimately when people startto take responsibility for the
things we put into our body, theenvironments we put ourselves
in, the amount of sleep we get,the amount of stress we choose
to expose ourselves to.
I think when that starts toshift and For people who micro
dosing is potentially a betterfit are going to be people who
(38:33):
are ready to, it's almost alifestyle.
It's a way of being like you arein control of your well being
and people who recognize thatand live by that will quite
often do exceedingly better.
With getting results from amicrodosing protocol.
So what you said there isincredibly powerful and I think
(38:53):
speaks to a more of our societyat large and the fact that some
people that there are groups ofpeople who for lack of better
word are in that.
Programming or in that mentalenvironment and they choose to
see things that way.
And until some, until theychoose to take ownership of
their own wellbeing, it's.
(39:14):
Even if somebody couldpotentially benefit from
microdose, if they don't havethe right mindset and I'm
curious about the, the screeningprocess and intake process that
you teach to your facilitators,but if somebody is not, they
might check all the boxes, butif they don't have the right
mindset they're still not goingto get the results.
Yeah, with the facilitators andas you start to roll out this
(39:36):
training, how much of anemphasis do you put on the, the
state of like the person'smindset who's coming in and like
the potential microdosingclient?
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (39:47):
Yeah.
Thank you for everything thatyou saId.
I really appreciate you speakingto the cultural conditioning and
programming that we're workingwith and how difficult it can be
to help people evolve out ofthat.
And so, we don't expect peopleto come in with the mindset of
That they actually know how toapproach these medicines.
(40:08):
That's why we teach ourpractitioners how to teach
people that as long as someonecomes in with the mindset of
openness and willing to learn, Ithink that's the best mindset
that they can come intosomething that's really
important that I teach about is,so much of what.
Just kind of zooming out thecultural context that we're
(40:28):
working in right now is that,psychedelics are schedule one
drugs.
They're illegal and they've beensuppressed.
And the more that we do thiswork and liberate them, we it's
important that we don't.
Create the relationship withpsychedelics from a colonized
lens, meaning what can I getfrom this medicine?
Or what can it do for me?
(40:49):
And if we approach it in thatway, it's negating the fact that
we're taking in anotherconsciousness into our body.
And so we really teachpractitioners to teach their
clients around that.
This is like a triad or quadratrelationship that people are
working with.
It's the relationship of thefacilitator and the client.
It's a relationship with theclient and the medicine.
The facilitator has arelationship with the medicine
(41:11):
and then there's the spiritworld as well.
So there's so many differentrelationships that are
happening.
And it's important that we bringthat into existence and
acknowledge these differentrelationships that are forming.
And we really teach people Howto form a healthy, loving
relationship with the substanceto speak to the medicine, to
have conversations with it, tounderstand that it's a
(41:33):
reciprocal relationship.
Like how do I give and receiveto this medicine instead of
approaching it from thiscolonizing mindset of what can I
get from this?
What can it do for me?
What can it take away from me?
Like how can I use this to heal?
Give back to community, to giveback to myself, to expand, to
learn, to grow and evolve.
Like I feel like me being onthis podcast today, even you
(41:54):
being here, this is giving backto the medicines for how much
that they've helped us.
I feel the medicine speakingthrough me when I say that.
So it's really about.
Approaching it as a relationshipand we, like you said, we're not
conditioned to approachsubstances and relationship at
all.
We don't bring, we're notconditioned to bring
intentionality to substances orto relationship.
(42:16):
And that's some of what I teachas well, like in the program
around interrupting addictionwith psychedelics.
I literally teach people tobring the same intentionality
and reverence and love to thedrugs that they're addicted to
the drugs that they're wantingto bring into their body.
Like, I think thatintentionality and that
relationship is so healing forpeople.
And so I think, yeah, having themindset of, we have to teach the
(42:39):
mindset, that we want with ourclients.
We have to teach people what itmeans to be in reciprocity with
medicine, what it means to be inrelationship with medicine, what
it means to listen to a medicineand acknowledge that we're
bringing.
another consciousness into ourbodies.
I believe that these plantfungal spirit molecules, they
want to learn from us as much aswe want to learn from them.
(43:02):
So yeah, it's a mutual lovingrelationship that we have with
them.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1 (43:06):
That's super powerful and, like, really
touched me emotionally becausethat's how I feel about the
mushrooms, it's like that friendwho I don't talk to all that
often, but when I pick up thephone, they're always there.
They're like, Hey, what's up?
It's so good to hear from youagain.
And we pick up the conversationright where we left off.
And it's always beautiful.
(43:27):
Beautiful.
And there is, it is reciprocal,there is a give and take.
It is a relationship.
I remember I would say that tomy clients.
I said, I can give you, based onyour situation, X, Y, Z, like I
can give you the bestrecommendations, but ultimately
you have to create and formulatea relationship with this
(43:48):
medicine.
I never wanted it to be acodependent sort of relationship
between myself or the person themedicine and the person.
Like having that conversationright up front, I think is
really important because we seecodependency in the Western
medical system everywhere.
It's a part of that system.
Like you, you go on a medicationand you're expected to be on it
(44:10):
for the rest of your life.
That is.
Exactly what codependency isdependency on something.
And I think framing therelationship and microdosing
from the very beginning as.
a relationship that has give andtake and making people aware of
(44:30):
the potentials of codependencywhat that looks like when
they're beginning, like, this issomething different.
This can be something that'scompletely different.
This can be, A special likerelationship between you and
this medicine, like I can helpgive you the tools and the
information and even give it toyou, but ultimately the results
(44:50):
that you get in your experiencewith it is going to be dependent
upon how you treat it and
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-2 (44:56):
Yes.
Hmm.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_1419 (44:58):
you is going to be a reflection of
how you treat it in yourthoughts, in your actions, and
how you talk about it.
And I even think so far as to,if you're hiding it.
If it's something that's thatyou treat as a dirty little
secret, like that energy is inyour interaction with it.
And, I understand that there aregoing to be situations where
(45:19):
it's maybe not ideal forsomebody to be, broadcasting
Their personal relationship withmushrooms or microdosing, like,
I totally get that.
And I always think back to theTerence McKenna quote, and I'm
going to paraphrase it, butit's, if you're quiet about the
positive experiences you havewith these medicines, You're
(45:40):
doing the man's work for him.
And I remember when I firstheard that it just like, hit me
like a lightning bolt.
If I'm in the closet about myexperiences and I'm scared to
talk about them, I'm doing theman's work for him.
I'm doing the work that likethese oppressive systems and
these old cultural mindsets andthese, just this old way of
(46:02):
being, like I am perpetuating,I'm doing exactly what they want
me to do.
I'm perpetuating this.
the stigma around this medicine.
And I remember when I heardthat, I was like, Oh, I guess I
can never be in the closetagain.
Like, I will.
Okay.
Yeah, I guess I'm just, I'm out,I'm open about it.
(46:24):
And wow, like that's incrediblypowerful.
And, Something you touched on,and I'd like to, I'd like to get
into a little bit more herebefore we wind this down, is
zooming out and looking at thebroader landscape of the
legality and the accessibilityto these medicines.
And I guess, as somebody who'sreally in the space, and
(46:48):
somebody who's kind of leadingthe charge, so to speak, what
are you seeing and what are yourthoughts and what do you see for
the future of microdosing as faras accessibility and doctors
being able to prescribe it andthis being a more viable option
for people on a broad scale,
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (47:03):
The revolution will not just be
medicalized.
I think that medicalization isincredibly important.
And my prayer is that there willbe multiple pathways for access.
I, speaking to this historicalcontext the war on drugs.
primarily impacts marginalizedcommunities and people of color.
(47:25):
And if we just medicalizepsychedelics, this, the people
that have been most impacted bythe war on drugs will never gain
access to these medicines.
And so I'm really passionateabout having the access be
expanded to anyone that wantsto, I want people to have their
own relationship with thesesubstances.
Back when I worked ondecriminalized nature, Oakland,
we talked about, it's similarto.
(47:47):
Growing vegetables or growingfruit.
Like you can buy blueberries atthe farmer's market.
You can grow your ownblueberries, or you can buy
blueberries from, the market atthe store and it's gone through
11 different refrigeratorsbefore it gets to your home.
And I don't grow.
Blueberries.
But and I'm sure that it'snuanced with different, what it
means to be organic versus notand different licenses that you
(48:09):
need to be a mass scaleblueberry grower.
But, there's no regulation on mehaving a blueberry farm.
If I want to do that in mybackyard.
So at least that I'm aware of.
So, I think it's important thatmedicalization exists.
I want there to have, People tohave access to doctors that can
and therapists that canfacilitate these experiences and
(48:30):
I think there should be personaluse.
I think recreational use can bereally healing for people.
I think there should besupported use.
I think it's so important thatas we roll out any type of
legalization that we don'treplicate the same system as
cannabis that came out where, itreally prevented legacy growers
and people from having their ownbusinesses.
(48:51):
And now it's just more of likecorporate licensure.
I think religious use is a partof it.
Ceremonial use.
Like how do we protect the factthat there's a huge lineage
behind psychedelics, that havebeen used for.
Thousands and thousands ofyears, not just by indigenous
communities, but the originalancestors that I learned about
from my business partner, Adam,is, the first ancestors of
(49:13):
psychedelics were animals.
We learned about psychedelicsand microdosing from animals.
So, this is, I think it'simportant that we view this as
more of like a birthright tohave a healthy relationship with
these substances and to notlimit the access to just one
particular Avenue.
And I, I work with differentstatewide initiatives and they
(49:34):
see this too, so I'm reallyexcited that there's going to
hopefully be multiple differentsites.
Lanes of access for individualsand at the centerpiece for me is
education and that's what wepromise City Council in Oakland.
That's what I, my work is allabout education, and really
approaching this.
(49:54):
Third wave of psychedelics isapproaching it with supported
use, with intentionality, witheducation, with harm reduction.
And if we can do that, then Ireally think that we're going to
be able to steward this movementmoving forward in a really great
way.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024 (50:09):
allowing people to have their own
relationship with the medicineon their terms.
along with education, like yousaid, is, I think, the most
reasonable, logical, and ethicalway forward.
And, what you said there about,allowing people to have
recreational experiences with itand not stigmatize it or call it
(50:32):
bad or illegal or criminalizepeople for wanting to have that
experience or non medical, innon medical context, like you
said, you mentioned recreationaland just different contexts,
like personal growth even, orceremonial use.
That's super powerful and Whatyou were saying about allowing
people to have their ownrelationship with the medicine,
(50:54):
whether that's grow itthemselves, get it from somebody
they know, so that they are notrequired to go through some
other system or through a doctoror through some sort of, jump
through a bunch of hoops.
I think it's really importantbecause Like you said, the
(51:14):
mushrooms, they grow wild.
These are like, how do youlegislate something that is a
part of nature on some, in somesense that just.
that is completely makes nosense whatsoever.
I have grown mushrooms prettyextensively myself and just that
experience, like anybody who'sgot a garden knows what that's
(51:36):
like, like, eating the foodthat's out of your garden and
eating mushrooms and usingmushrooms that you've grown
yourself and put your energyinto and your excitement and
gone through the whole processit's a completely different
experience.
There's just no.
Other way to put it, like whenyou take them from spore all the
(51:57):
way to ceremony, it is like theexperience is just different and
it's hard to put a value, anumber of value on that.
It's hard to, it's hard to likereally pinpoint what that
difference is.
But there is a.
An intangible level of depth tothe experience that you have
(52:17):
with your own, with the medicineyou've grown yourself.
That includes cannabis, thatincludes food from your garden,
food is medicine in my belief.
And especially with psilocybintoo, that holds true for
psilocybin.
And if people knew how reallyeasy it is to grow psilocybin, I
think more people would do it.
(52:38):
And if it, for real, it's reallynot that hard.
They grow on cow patties out inthe pasture, in the right, with
the right amount of humidity.
So it's like If people, if morepeople knew how easy it was and
that they could in just a couplebatches grow enough for a year
or two for an entire family.
(52:58):
I mean, it's They're super,prolific.
It doesn't require a lot of timeor money or space or fancy
equipment to grow enoughmushrooms that you can start to
develop that relationship onyour own.
And I super appreciate yourpatience.
Your acknowledgment of that andthe fact that it doesn't need to
be a medicalized thing.
It can just be a regular thingthat people who choose to can
(53:21):
engage with if they want.
And giving people that, thatpersonal freedom and the ability
to develop that relationship ontheir terms.
If they choose to.
And so that's, I love that.
I love that.
And it is my belief too that ata certain point it's just not
going to make sense to, tocontinue to criminalize people
(53:42):
for having these medicines andif we have common sense laws
that allow regular people to doregular things like grow them
that will help alleviate thestigma around it and that's
There will be more people willbe interested in self educating
in that circumstance because youhave to learn a little bit more
(54:02):
about it.
And I think the cornerstone ofwhat you said is education, like
how vitally important educationis.
And, to wrap this up and bringit full circle all the way back
to the microdosing facilitatortraining, which is incredibly
focused on Education educatingthe people so that they can
educate the people that they'reworking with.
(54:23):
That's such a beautifuloffering.
And, I'm going to leave the lastword to you if there's I know
you mentioned the dates, butyeah, could you please let us
know how we can get ahold of youthe website for the facilitator
training your differentofferings.
It sounds like you got a lotgoing on.
So please tell us how people canget Involved in and interact
(54:43):
with the offerings that youpresent
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16- (54:45):
Thank you so much.
And thank you so much for havingme on the podcast and being, for
the work that you do with yourclients in the field and work
that you have done for so longand for, platforming our work
with the microdosing facilitatortraining and flow state.
I really appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
So the ways that.
(55:06):
People can connect with us.
Our new website is going to belive in just a couple of days.
It's flowstatenow.
com or microdosing.
training ormicrodosingfacilitatortraining.
They all go to the same place,but primarily flowstatenow.
com and I also have, The SanFrancisco Psychedelic Society,
(55:26):
which is a nonprofit that I'mthe director of.
You can find me on Instagram,connect with D and LinkedIn and
Facebook.
And yeah, for anyone that'sinterested in joining our
training, the first Day of ournext cohort is January 19th.
We love to have calls withpeople.
If people are interested injoining the training, we always
(55:46):
give a call for anyone toexplore the training to see if
it's the right fit for them.
We would be honored to haveanyone that's part of your
community join our trainingprogram.
And I'm always available as wellto connect with people and
provide support andconsultation.
And, I.
I live my life in dedication tothis psychedelic work and make
(56:08):
myself very accessible forpeople.
So I'm really honored to dothat.
And thank you again for theopportunity to present today.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_ (56:16):
daniel.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I appreciate you deeply Althoughall the links for your websites
will be in the show notes foranybody who wants to see them We
will have to touch base and dothis again I'm sure you'll have
more offerings coming out andi'd love to hear as this program
evolves and grows i'd love tosee you know, maybe a year from
now year and a half from nowwhere things go And and just
(56:39):
More broadly, with thedecriminalization of
psychedelics on the forefront,like, I appreciate your work,
and thank you for coming on, andyeah, I have a feeling this
won't be the last chat that wehave.
squadcaster-c3be_1_09-16-20 (56:51):
You might see us in other countries.
We just got our first Thailandstudent.
Thailand just legalizedpsilocybin therapy.
I did not know just recently.
Yeah, so we just got a newstudent from Thailand, someone
from the UK.
So we're going global and I'mexcited to.
To expand to, otherjurisdictions that aren't as
(57:12):
psychedelically informed as weare.
So yeah, we'll see where thefractal of expansion takes us.
ian-vogel_1_09-16-2024_14 (57:18):
Can't wait, I can't wait to see, and
I'm looking forward to seeingwhere this all goes to.
Alright everybody, be well andtake care.
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