March 4, 2025 • 40 mins
Thanks for tuning in to The Conscious Cut. In this pilot episode, we explore the transformative world of sustainable fashion with Milan-based professor Jane Scaffidi Abbate, an expert in eco-design and circular fashion. From the environmental impact of clothing to tackling waste, greenwashing, and consumer accountability, Jane shares insights on reshaping the industry through education, upcycling, and collaboration. Discover how circular design is more than a trend — it’s a vital shift toward responsible production. Tune in to rethink your relationship with fashion and take steps toward lasting change!
Jane Scaffidi Abbate is a university lecturer from the Istituto Europeo di Design.
Thank you for listening!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hoiki Liu (00:04):
Welcome to the Conscious Cut.
I'm your h ost, Hoiki Liu.
This podcast is all aboutrethinking sustainability across
fashion, lifestyle and everydaypractices.
Through conversations withentrepreneurs, policymakers,
educators and changemakers inHong Kong and beyond, we'll
explore real solutions, fromindustry-wide policies to the
(00:25):
small habits we can all adopt.
Let's cut through the noise andcreate meaningful change
together.
So today we have with us JaneScaffidi Abbate from Milan.
She's a professor at IEDUniversity and you teach
eco-design and circular design.
Is that correct?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (01:20):
happy to be here.
I think it's very important tohave these discussions because
you hear and you reveal a lot ofwhat is going on, and also
about the frustrations and whatis going well within the
industry as well.
Hoiki Liu (01:35):
Yeah, I mean we had a bunch of discussion about all
the problems and jumping allover here and then this morning
about, because there's just somany issues, like we were saying
today, even in one simplesentence.
When we're talking aboutsustainability and fashion,
there's probably like 10 issuesin that sentence that we can
jump into.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (01:54):
Yes.
Hoiki Liu (01:55):
But I guess let's introduce you to our audience a
little bit more and let themknow.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about your background and
maybe how you got intosustainability?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (02:04):
Yes, so I have a bachelor's.
So first, when I lived inDenmark, I had a diploma in
pattern making and tailoring.
Hoiki Liu (02:16):
Sorry, I'm just going to ask you.
I always thought you wereItalian because we met.
No, no, I'm actually notItalian, but I lived there more
than half of my life.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (02:24):
Okay, I see, sort of Italian.
I'm actually not Italian, but Ilive there more than half of my
life.
Okay, I see, sort of I'mactually Danish, all right, yeah
, um, anyways.
Um, so I'm, I have an educationin tailoring and and um, in
pattern making.
And then I moved to Italy and Iwas studying um in Istituto
Marangoni, where I did abachelor in fashion design and a
master degree in fashionstyling, so everything very
(02:46):
fashion in you know, the oldschool way.
Now, okay, um, and I've beenworking in different areas.
I've been doing costumes when Iwas in the united states for
houston ballet.
I worked in different ways withfashion throughout the years and
then, when I came back to Italyeight years ago, I started to
(03:07):
work for universities sodifferent universities in Italy,
within the fashion industry,and it was, I think, was like
two years ago, three years agomaybe.
I felt like something was wrong, the way that you know, like I
was teaching, obviously, whatshould be taught, but I didn't
feel like I was contributing tosomething better.
(03:29):
Okay, so I I actually decidedone day either I totally quit
the fashion industry or Istarted teaching something where
I can make a difference.
Yeah, and this is basically howI arrived at a point where, for
me, it was just wait, theindustry is just too much.
And this is how it actuallystarted with the sustainability.
(03:52):
I've always been interested inin the sustainability and how to
make it better, obviously, but,but this is where I really
started also to study by myselfto be able to, you know, provide
a better education also yeah, Ithink it's similar.
Hoiki Liu (04:07):
For me it's eventually you get to a tipping
point when you've been in theindustry for a certain amount of
time and you see all theproblems that that we haven't
ironed out and it's growing andit's just piling up and you just
see it, you just see yourselfgetting into it, you know.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:25):
So I think that's exactly where where I
arrived, at a point where Ididn't feel that there was
either.
Or, you know, I cannot stay inthis anymore.
Hoiki Liu (04:33):
Yeah, I didn't want to be part of, I didn't want to
continuously contribute to thisproblem.
Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:38):
Exactly, exactly, and I didn't feel it
was correct.
You know, like direct way I wasdoing stuff before.
Hoiki Liu (04:45):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:46):
So that was the tipping point.
Hoiki Liu (04:49):
Yeah, so I think let's also talk a little bit
more about eco-design.
How do you teach the kidseco-design?
How is it different from thefashion design that we know?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (05:06):
That we've been so used to all clips,
right, right, so.
So in eco design goes a lot ofdifferent topic, obviously, but
but the most important thinghere is that we start to design
a product where you have notjust eco design but where the
whole product turns circular,meaning you have the loop closed
, where the beginning of life ofa product also has an end and
(05:30):
has a new purpose in the circle.
So I think it's very importantthat for new designers, they're
taught to know the whole supplychain, but also to know that
when you start designing aproduct, you need to know what
is going to happen with it inthe end of life.
So when the consumer doesn'twant it anymore, what, where is
(05:52):
it going?
Are you going to recycle it?
Are you going to turn it intonew upcycled products?
What, what is going to happen?
And I think this is where, um,where it's getting really let's
put it like that difficult,because you have to create new
designers which are creative ina new way it's not just if
you're good at drawing somethingglamorous, but but in the
(06:15):
future you would need to.
You would need to design basedon what is already existing, and
I think that's going to be themost difficult part of it, but
it's also where you really seethe creative designers coming
out I, I totally agree.
Hoiki Liu (06:30):
I think, um what we've seen in the science so far
, that all the very extravagantthings it's great, but it's just
it can't last through time.
Exactly like it can sit.
Maybe it can sit there for alot and last through time, but
it's not something that you canrepeatedly bring out and wear
again and have it last two timesand.
I do agree.
I think maybe in like, maybenot in the short future where
(06:53):
we're still working, but maybeeventually, like when our kids
grow up, they're not going to bewearing things that's like this
Everyone's going to be wearingsomething that's redesigned from
something else, Right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (07:04):
right, yeah, Right.
And I think that's you know,when you're talking about
upcycling, often you think about, you know, something you stitch
together in your domesticsewing machine at home and looks
a bit homemade.
But I think where it's going tobe very interesting when the
big, both manufacturers but alsothe brands start coming
together and they're designingit together.
(07:26):
So the manufacturer is sayingto the brands look, I have 300
t-shirts which are purple,design something based on that,
and then so they can reuse whatthey already have.
You know, maybe it's just amatter of changing something and
then you can sell it in anotherway.
And I think that's where thereally creative part is coming
(07:48):
in, because it's also a verydifferent way to be creative,
but it's also very difficult.
Hoiki Liu (07:54):
I think people don't realize.
But just like it's actuallyeasier to create virgin
materials, it's easier to makevirgin polyester and virgin
nylon than it is to recycle andto reproduce it so same with
design.
If you're starting on a blankcanvas, it's actually much
easier than taking what you haveexisting and to recreate
(08:15):
something with that exactly,yeah, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (08:17):
And sometimes it's also difficult
because then you have like aweird color or a fit or
materials which are verydifficult to make work together,
yeah exactly so.
So I think it's, it's uh, Ithink it's going to be very
interesting, but but it shouldbe the way to go, because we
have um large productions whichare, you know, having a huge
(08:38):
stock.
They cannot do anything aboutan instrument, perfectly working
garment which is alreadyproduced.
So I think it's important thatthat.
But it's a matter of brands and, you know, manufacturers
working together I think.
Hoiki Liu (08:52):
As for consumers, they have to think about.
It's not even what they'redonating or they're getting rid
of or throwing out, but actuallya lot of the waste comes from.
I was asking the kids at myschool last week about this.
You know, what do you thinkhappens to all the clothes that
you see on the shop floors?
Let's forget even what's in thewarehouse for inventory online
(09:12):
just what's on the shop floor.
And then I mean, obviously yousee it's a new season, they're
all laid out beautiful, and thenthey go into sale and you know
there's still a lot ofeverything left.
But I mean I asked them there'slike 20 kids.
Do you think all like when we,when when uh brands go on sale,
do they think they selleverything?
Like everything is gone afterthis week of sales and we're all
(09:34):
we're done?
And I mean even the childrenknow they're like no, I'm sure a
lot of things are left over,right.
So that's the question what dowe do with all the leftover
things?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (09:43):
where does it go?
Hoiki Liu (09:43):
yeah, because I mean we know nowadays they don't go
to the outlets.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (09:47):
Outlets get their own outlet life
exactly, yeah, right, yeah, andthat's absolutely also
complicated.
You know you have outletshaving a specific collection
made for outlets, not like 15years ago where you could
actually find you went in anoutlet store where you would
actually have a lot, a big mixof all sort of stuff.
Now today it's like going intoa regular store.
Hoiki Liu (10:10):
It's going into a discount shop, basically like
for sub-level, subpar goods.
I almost want to say.
The second-hand store isbecoming more of what the
outlets used to be.
We know it when we're young.
It's like people are actuallytrying to treasure hunt Right.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (10:26):
In their now Okay.
Hoiki Liu (10:29):
I think this probably ties in really well with the
next thing that we can bring up,which is the upcycling workshop
you did with the kids.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (10:35):
Yes, so I think, as for me, the education
part is very important.
I think it's all which we'regoing to do in the future has to
do with information andeducation on so many different
levels.
So not too long ago he hadorganized a workshop on
(10:56):
upcycling different items.
It could be socks, it could bet-shirts, it could be already,
you know, like cutouts that theyhad from you know, the lab that
we have in the school, and theyinvited kids from four to ten
to come and do that, preparedsome small, you know, dolls and
octopus and stuff like that thatthey could make by hand really
(11:17):
fast.
But this opened the minds tothese kids that you can actually
take some stuff and you makesomething new out of it.
Okay, and this whole upcyclingconcept I think should be
introduced in many differentlevels for kids that's beautiful
.
Hoiki Liu (11:34):
Actually, one of the ideas I was talking to you about
the all the wastage I have leftfrom a bad production.
Maybe I should be thinkingabout the same thing.
Instead of just makingsomething else for sale, I
should involve the kids to makesomething that they can take
home, and they will so, sopurpose.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (11:50):
So it was fun because the workshop was one
and a half hour and obviously Ialready prepare a bit what they
could make.
Okay, so, but they made likelike bracelets, or they made
like small octopus or you know,like different things that they
could bring home and say like Iactually made this.
And I think just the fact thatyou actually make something
(12:10):
yourself already is a big result, especially if you're four or
five.
You know, like, I made this one, yeah, and I think that's what
we want to promote.
Also, when they get a bitbigger.
You know, I actually I rememberI did this because these things
are something that theyactually remember Right Without
going to.
It's not necessary that youhave to.
(12:31):
You know, make big events.
You know that you have to go toa roller coaster park or
something like this If you haveevents like this where they
actually feel like they'recreating something.
I am not saying it's going todo the same as a roller coaster
park, but you will know.
Hoiki Liu (12:46):
But you will have, like it's, building beautiful
small habits that they will havewith them, that they are now
able to see that, hey, I'm ableto make something.
I'm able to accomplish this IfI just give it a little bit more
thought, a lot of my thingsdon't have to be garbage.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (13:01):
But also, if you have that one sock, which
never has any, you know like nopartner Exactly.
You can actually use it forsomething.
Yes, yes, yes.
You know, I'm not saying thatyou have to make a hundred small
octopus out of a sock, right,but if you know that you can
actually use what you have forsomething else.
Yes, you know, it's a way forthem to start thinking if I have
(13:24):
a jacket that I don't useanymore because maybe it's too
short on the sleeve, could wemake it sleeveless?
Yes yes, yes.
So just for them to startthinking about how can I use
whatever I already have, but notonly with clothes, with
everything.
Hoiki Liu (13:47):
Yeah.
So it's a great way to triggerand kickstart a habit, like a
good habit of just thinking ofreusing it and stuff.
I mean because recycling isactually not the best?
No, absolutely not, I thinkeven even just the the thing
about fixing stuff.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (13:55):
Yes, so if you have a sock with a hole on
and I know it's cheap to go outand buy a new sock yes, and we
probably everybody got money fora new pair of socks but it's
just the fact that you'reactually fixing something yeah,
you know, you make the lifelonger.
The lifespan of that singleproduct is going to be so much
longer I've heard so manyreasoning from the.
Hoiki Liu (14:20):
I mean, I'm not going to specific any, but I just
heard so much reasoning frompeople in general saying oh, I
have to shop fast fashionbecause it's just affordable for
me, yeah because I don't havemoney for luxury.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (14:32):
Yes yes, yes, no, but in theory you don't
have to have because probablyyou don't need anything,
probably your closet is alreadyfull.
Yes, go and see if you havesomething in the closet, and if
you don't buy 10 of you know,like not even 10, maybe you can
buy five less of something andthen buy a really good quality
item you can keep for a longlong time, or I think the
(14:54):
extreme for me is I've actuallyseen this guy who was wearing a
uniclothes sweater with patches.
Hoiki Liu (15:00):
He's just been patching them up.
So I also want to say sometimesit's not so much a problem of
the quality of fast fashion, buthow do you care for your things
.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (15:09):
Right, right, and that's actually
another thing.
I also believe that a lot ofpeople do not know how to take
care of their clothes, I agree,so they wash it wrong.
Maybe they put stuff in thedryer which is not supposed to
go into the dryer.
I'm not saying you should dryclean too much, because that's
(15:31):
not good for the environmenteither, but try to see if you
can care for your clothes.
Maybe wear it one more timebefore you wash it or so I think
it's.
It's a matter also of how youtake care of the clothes.
Okay, you don't wash it toomany times and and again you buy
natural materials, because whenyou then wash all the plastic,
microplastic doesn't go out inthe water streams.
And that's another discussionas we talked about this.
(15:55):
It's a large topic and you knowwhen you start on one you start
on to another, you jump on toanother.
And that's also why I thinkit's's I'm not saying it's
difficult to discuss this topic,but there's so much, yeah, to
discuss.
So so, no matter in whatdirection you're going, I think
I believe that that we alwaysend up in different directions
(16:16):
there's always ways to do betterand there's all different ways
to do it, and um certain waysmight work for some people and
not for others.
Hoiki Liu (16:25):
I mean, but yeah, one of the things that you just
brought up about washing yourclothes and polyester clothes.
So, with recycled plastic andrecycled polyester, specifically
, that's one of the issues thatI always have.
I hate recycled polyestert-shirts.
Right, because those aret-shirts are something that you
have to wash all the time.
(16:45):
Right, and every time you wash,um, we have to realize, as
great as our technology has gonethrough, right now, the
recycled materials are alwaysgoing to be shorter filaments
than the, than the virgin ones,and it's just easier for more
microplastics to wash shop.
So one of the things I alwayssuggest to customers is put your
(17:05):
recycled polyester inside yourgarments, do the recycled
polyester filling, or even dothe recycled polyester outerwear
that you're washing unlimitedtimes, exactly, yeah.
So I think when we try to dogood, it's just if you have a
partnership and cooperation,people can remind you where you
can still do better, exactly,and where some things that you
(17:28):
know your intention is good butyou can't help it sometimes the
execution doesn't always comethrough, right, yeah so, yeah,
exactly, and I also think it's amatter of you know for the
designers.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (17:40):
You know designers with our you know
generation, yeah, they might noteven think about these small
ways, and I think here we aremissing an education span for
our generation, which designerswith a lot of you know, a lot of
experience, yeah, but they'renot taught to design in this way
.
Yes, so when you tell adesigner in our you know age
(18:04):
about this and they're like itmakes sense, yeah, but it's just
a matter of knowing it.
Like if you have a guts, youknow a cotton t-shirt, yeah, and
and you and you, you stitch itwith a polyester thread.
You know already, there it'sdifficult because then you
cannot recycle it, because thenyou have like a mixed product,
(18:25):
so it's a matter of you knowinglike you make a hundred percent
cotton t-shirt but you need tostitch it with cotton threads,
otherwise you cannot recycle it.
Hoiki Liu (18:35):
So that's actually one of the topics I know we're
jumping around again, but one ofthe things that I was just
telling people about I wasexplaining to the kids about
last week when I went in to givethem a briefing before Fashion
Summit.
They were asking me why can'twe just recycle our clothes,
like, why can't we just recycleit Like we would recycle the
plastic bottle or the cardboardbox?
(18:57):
You know, and I'm like it'sbecause most fabrics come in
mixed qualities and also a lotof the things, so, so, like they
.
I mean, after explaining, ifyou have a polyester cotton
fabric, you just can't separatethose filaments anymore.
It makes it hard to recycle.
But also one of the things thatthey were asking me how, like
(19:18):
you know, I might have a 50cotton, 50 polyester shirt, so
that's why I cannot recycle.
It could be 98 cotton and twopercent polyester and so that's
why I cannot recycle it.
It could be 98% cotton and 2%polyester and I still can't
recycle it because it's allmixed in.
And this is when we brought upthe other topic, greenwashing.
When they see a lot of thingslike on the hand tag, it was
tell them made of organic cottonor recycled polyester.
(19:40):
But when you actually becausethey're asking how come I can't
recycle the recycled polyestert-shirt?
Right, when I bought it it saidit's made with recycled
polyester, so in their heads Ican recycle it again.
Right, like something that camefrom recycling can also be
recycled again.
And I was like no, because ifyou actually look at the tag,
there is 5% of recycledpolyester, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (20:04):
And it's only 5%.
Yes, and I think that's alsoone of the big issues that
obviously brands want to sellsomething which is not.
I saw a pair of socks the otherday cashmere wool socks, where
you have 80% nylon acrylic, andthen you have 5% cashmere and
(20:26):
five percent wool, yeah, orsomething like that, and then in
the end it's you know, yeah,the percentage.
So you know it should be likenylon socks, yeah, with a bit of
cash exactly, yeah and I thinkthat's also why it's so
important that we start havingsome, some rules and
legislations, because noteverybody's reading what is on
(20:48):
it and if you're saying it's acash, you know if it's a
cashmere sweater, but there isonly 5% cashmere, it's not a
cashmere sweater it's whateverother cashmere, it's another
sweater.
Hoiki Liu (21:00):
Yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (21:01):
And I think that's very problematic.
But we're back to the greenwasthen.
Yes, then it's a completelydifferent topic again we're
never gonna end the never ending.
Hoiki Liu (21:13):
all right, okay, I think we've kind of mentioned
about um, upcycling and circularfashion and business, but let's
dig into it a little bit more.
Do you think, think this worksas a business?
Upcycling and I mean for myself, I have.
When I was asked this question,maybe around five, six years
ago, I had a very like come fromno, it doesn't work.
(21:38):
Like making individual piecesdoesn't work as a business, it
can only work in your own home.
But I'm having second thoughts.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (21:46):
So I think that if you make like, but not
like as a big corporation, mightnot work, but not not like as a
big corporation might not work.
But but if you're having alittle brand and if you make
your whole model around this,this upcycling, so maybe you
source your jeans.
If you want to make upcyclingjean stuff, you source your
(22:07):
jeans, the right you know from aplace you you get your
materials from a place where youyou know you can source X
amount a month.
Yeah, I think it's veryimportant to have like.
If you can sell X amount, it'svery important that you know
that you can have an incoming aswell.
Yeah, so that's a part of it.
(22:28):
Do I believe upcycling?
Upcycling could also be, ifyou're a big manufacturer and
you're having 100 coats that youcannot sell for some reason,
being able to have your designercutting off the sleeves and sew
something on instead, orchanging it so you can sell it
(22:48):
again, or collaborating againwith the brand saying I have
these coats, can you please comeup what do you think?
Hoiki Liu (22:55):
we make a collaboration that you design
something and we will fix it andwe can sell them without being
throwing out a hundred codes Ithink with brands collaboration
will be great, because that'sone of the things we're
mentioning is actually mostbrands when they, even after
they go on discounted sales,they have so much surplus left
leftover, exactly, um, as amanufacturer, I thought about
(23:15):
that because sometimes I haveleftovers but I can at this
moment only use on my dead stockbecause I'm quite worried about
customers branding and whatthey don't sell.
But, um, yeah, definitelyworking with the brand to let
them know.
Why don't we do this projecttogether?
Exactly, but it could also betheir leftovers yes, I think
most likely it would be likethat.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (23:35):
Yes, so if they have their branding and
stuff inside it as well, youknow it's not going to be an
issue.
Hoiki Liu (23:41):
Yes, in fact, you use it as a highlight.
Attribute Like this brand isupcycling what they didn't sell
yet Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (23:48):
So there is actually a good example that
Miu Miu, they upcycled some ofthe old denim jeans right, and
they made some unique pieces andthey're selling it, obviously
for an extreme amount of money,in their flagship stores.
Yes, yes, okay, and I thinkthat's a very good example
because I think it's veryimportant that brands like like
Prada and Miu Miu are giving anexample that it's actually
(24:09):
possible.
Hoiki Liu (24:10):
I think that's a great example, because there was
also, I think, just in the lastfashion week in Paris.
I'm not going to mention thebrand name, but there was also
another terrible example of oneof the brands using all the
wastage to create their fashionshow stage.
Okay, where, you know, thewastage is literally just going
to become garbage at the end ofthe show.
(24:30):
Yeah, yeah, but I think whatMiu Miu did with that is much
better and they also made acollaboration with, I think,
with levi's where they.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (24:38):
So I think it's very important.
Well, it's very important hereto make the distinction between
upcycling stuff like that, alsoin collaboration with other
brands, and then the you knowlike just collaborations and I
just want to say, the otherthing that I brought up is more
like it's not even upcycling,it's downcycling right.
Hoiki Liu (24:58):
You're ruining what could have been recycled.
Exactly yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (25:02):
Yeah, yeah , no, absolutely.
So I think it's very importantthat you know famous, big,
famous brand does make someexamples, Set the examples.
We can see it a bit.
It was a bit like when thebigger brands stopped using real
fur.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and it was likesmall rings in the water very
(25:22):
fast.
All fur went off the market andnow you basically don't.
It's almost bad.
Yes, exactly.
Hoiki Liu (25:32):
And no one really wants it.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (25:32):
So I think it's a matter of giving an
example, but it probably has tobe some of the big luxury brands
doing that, and I think themore they push it, probably the
further they can also go with it.
Hoiki Liu (25:46):
Yeah, I guess it's just with the bigger brands we
know that you assume that theyhave the finances to push
forward with a change, whereaswith smaller brands I always say
it's it, it's also feasible,but in a different way.
We have to look at it, not fromso much a financial way, but
how you can change your justdaily practices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (26:05):
right, maybe starting small but
continuously growing, exactlybut I also think it's a matter
of now that at least in europe,you need to start, you know, be
responsible for what you'rethrowing out.
Yes, so I think, at least forsmaller brands, it might benefit
you if you find a way to usewhat you already, first of all,
have produced and not have to,you know, keep going back to you
(26:27):
because you have to pay to getrid of this stuff.
Hoiki Liu (26:29):
You know, and it's just not right throwing out
stuff which is perfectly working, which is actually one of the
things I have two-sided views onthe product passports, digital
passport Only that thing,because you know, with my own
brand, right now I'm using a lotof dead stock, yeah, but it's
very hard for me to find backout.
(26:50):
Like, where is the stock fromexactly?
Like, the lab test that I willdo on it is the content test to
ensure that I have the rightcontent.
But besides that, you know, alab test of 20 times standard,
that's not even good enough forme.
So I do my personal test, whichis I just kind of test the
fabric myself.
I make a simple mock-up of asample and I just try wearing
that fabric day to day in theoffice at home and see how it
(27:15):
feels and how it washes.
You know if it fades, if itshrinks or if it's got some
chemicals in it.
That's making my skin itchy,which has actually happened once
, you know.
But so, like all these things Ibelieve in, so right now, for
my own collection, all myclothes, I expect it to go
through 200 washes, no problem,okay, yeah because, it's what's
I've tested out and I know so.
I think with small brands, whereit's difficult, it's also an
(27:39):
opportunity oh yeah, they justkind of have to find their
footing and ways around you knowwhat?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (27:43):
I think it's all a matter of you know
developing ways of doing thesethings, because if you make it
normal to your brand yeah, youknow making sure that you don't
throw out stuff yes, I think youcan.
If, if it's a habit, I thinkit's just the way that you can
make it work in the in thefuture and and if you want to
(28:07):
start up a brand, especially ifyou're a new startup, I think
it's very important to implementall these things from beginning
.
Hoiki Liu (28:12):
You know, basically create a circular brand from the
beginning, so you don't have togo back and need to change
these things and with the, thenew, um, I don't know if it's a
legislation, but like the newpassports, digital passports and
stuff, I think what it would begood is, in a way it will
stifle the competition.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (28:32):
That just can't make it exactly if they
can't give you the data.
They can't be transparent, theyyeah, and you cannot sell, that
you know and I and I hope thatalso it's going to help on the
market that we don't have somuch stuff yes, exactly that's
the other thing having if youhave to test everything like
t-shirts.
Yeah, maybe they will say like,okay, but we need to test them,
we need to have this and maybethat they cannot even provide.
(28:55):
Yeah, you know all theinformation.
Yeah, so like maybe we're justgonna have five.
Hoiki Liu (29:00):
Yeah same with the fabric supplier too, because if
they cannot figure out what thisyarn is exactly, then they
would just have to step away anddecide not to use it instead of
going forward, which mighthappen, what they do in the past
and just make something anyways, hoping that it would sell
Right, okay.
So, back and forth, we've kindof brought it back and forth
about well, you know, big brands, small brands, how do we make
(29:21):
circularity work for everybody,because you have worked with
different size brands, I alsowant to hear what is something
that you've seen that has worked?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (29:33):
That has worked, yeah, so yeah, so I
think it's very important tounderstand.
I was working when I just cameout of university.
I worked for a big fashioncompany and I learned a lot, but
this topic wasn't even you knowan issue, so obviously it was
(29:53):
not even to be implemented atthat time yeah, so.
So I think where we see it'sworking and where it's very
important is, um, when I havebeen working with smaller
companies, I think it's easierto implement it from the
beginning, obviously when youstart up okay right.
(30:15):
And it's easier to implementalso for smaller companies
because they're more agile.
You know they're produced.
They don't produce so manypieces, so also for the
production line they're they'rea bit faster to adapt.
Yes, obviously, being a smallercompany, you will have probably
less funds to invest in allthese, and that's obviously
(30:37):
difficult because sometimes youhave to do investments where you
don't see any returns yes atleast you don't see any returns
for the first, maybe five years,three, five years, yeah.
So if you have to change torenewable energy in your
factories or in your offices,that might not be a cost which
is coming back to you, yeah.
(30:57):
So a lot of these newinvestments might not be
something where you see a directbenefit, and that's obviously
difficult for smaller companies,but it will benefit from the
world, for the world, obviouslyon the long run.
For the bigger companies, theymight have much bigger fundings
for these things and they canmake departments.
(31:19):
But but at the same time, ifyou're producing in different
countries, if you have, like, alot of products, different
regulations, exactly you havedifferent regulations, you have
different markets and ofproducts, different regulations,
exactly you have differentregulations, you have different
markets and and you need toapply all these new rules to a
lot of different markets.
Obviously with a biggerproduction you would also have,
like you will not be as fast asmaking a turnover or a chain
(31:43):
make this change as a smallercompany might have, okay, so I
think I think it's a matter ofyou know like you see, and
obviously you won't see thebenefits as well as fast.
Okay, also, because for largercompanies, the investments are
obviously also bigger.
You might have to hire the wholeyou know like department of
sustainability and you might tohire um marketing as well.
(32:08):
So so obviously it's on another,it's just on another level.
That said, I still believe I'mnot saying that everybody have
to change 100% from one day toanother.
But what is important is thatif you just maybe you make, it
doesn't matter if you're a smallcompany or a big company, but
if you make, like, start outwith three goals, you know one,
(32:28):
something you can change rightaway.
Right, something you can changewithin the next half a year, a
year, and then something it willbe changing within the next
five years, and then you stickto them instead of saying like,
no, we need to change a hundredpercent everything, and then
you're gonna fail, you knowexactly.
So I think it's important thatmaybe you make uh, you make a
(32:49):
plan and then you start workingfor this plan.
Then now they're coming out, youknow, like laws that you have
to follow.
So obviously we have to followthose laws.
But for the other things, Ithink it's important that you
start doing the investments andthe you know like to, to do the
things that you are able to do,and then make a plan for it,
because I think that's the waythat you are able to do and then
(33:10):
make a plan for it, because Ithink that's the way that you
can come to success.
But also for the bigger companyand smaller companies I think
it's the same, but I thinkthat's very important that you
make a plan and try to stick toit.
I think it's also importantthat everybody is trying to do
just one little thing, thendoing it 100% and failing, so I
think I do agree with you.
Hoiki Liu (33:30):
I think for the smaller brands, because most of
the time, if they have this inmind, they might have started
from the beginning, exactly.
So everyone on their team kindof has this understanding and
they know this is the goal thatthey're working towards.
With a lot of the bigger brandsthat I've been working with, I
think most of the biggest issueis they've usually hired a team,
a sustainability team, that hasgreat understanding and this is
(33:53):
what they want to do.
But when it comes down to theprices or even the rest of the
company understanding thismission, when they don't
understand it, the finance teamdon't want to pay for it, right?
And so it's always like acircle that turns into a line,
right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:10):
And, obviously, what it comes down to
.
As it is business usually, whatit comes down to is a matter of
bottom line.
And often with these circularmethods in the beginning.
Obviously it's just more costly.
Hoiki Liu (34:28):
It is.
It just costs more.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:30):
And that's the investment as well.
I think we should see more asan investment in in the big
picture.
Hoiki Liu (34:36):
It's an investment, you know, not just a cost, and
also, I almost want to say Ifeel like I know the
government's doing a lot more tohelp with transparency, but for
those companies that'sobviously not being responsible
on their environment, I almostfeel like they need to have some
environmental tax slap onexactly, yes, exactly, or fines
(34:58):
and something.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:58):
I totally agree with that.
Hoiki Liu (35:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and maybe like their incentives for
businesses that are infestinginto this to ensure that they
have a circular future.
That doesn't.
Maybe there needs to be taxincentives on the other exactly,
exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (35:13):
But I think there is a lot of ways
that you know like you could,you, you could as governments,
help in this way also, becauseit's easy to make rules.
Yes, if you then don't help,yeah, you know, I mean, it's
very, it's a very fine line.
Hoiki Liu (35:26):
there's sometimes, uh , rules that kind of just it's
almost a line to keep newcomersfrom entering, but then there's
also rules that actually helpthe whole economy and the
environment.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (35:40):
But I also think it's maybe for some
companies which are working justfine you know they're selling,
they're doing their stuff it'svery difficult to understand
that they need to change asystem which has actually been
working really well for themuntil now.
Yes, you know, and now we haveto put in money in something
that we don't know where we'regoing to end up with, right,
(36:03):
yeah, so obviously incentivewould be, would be helping.
Hoiki Liu (36:08):
So obviously incentive would be helping, but
I guess at the end of the dayit's the whole world, including
the consumers, that mustunderstand, so the consumers can
first make better choices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (36:18):
Exactly so .
I think we're all responsiblefor this, both the brands and
the manufacturers, and also,especially also, the the
consumers, because you know thebrands are creating the need.
Of you know like they'rethey're saying.
They're telling us you need tohave a new shirt each time you
(36:38):
go into the store but it's notthe consumer stopping up saying
like two seconds yeah, yeah,yeah, I actually don't need that
one.
Yeah, okay, so and, and, and,then again for the brands
they're ordering, ordering fromthe suppliers, which they just
have to fit in Because thedemand the consumers are having,
this demand that we justcreated.
(37:00):
So it's a vicious cycle and Ithink we are all responsible.
I think everybody which iswearing clothes are responsible
for also knowing what is goingto happen with it afterwards and
where it's coming from.
Hoiki Liu (37:13):
You know, we need to be more involved in what we're
wearing and what is going tohappen with it, because, no
matter how much of a blind eyewe turn today, this problem is
going to show up at our doorstep.
Oh yeah, it's already in there.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (37:26):
Yeah, this is not going to disappear.
Hoiki Liu (37:28):
Yeah yeah, yeah, people are saying you can send
it out in space or you can sendit to Africa, south America, but
the problem is not going away,it's just moved.
Yes, yes, yes, you're justshifting it from one area to
another.
Sooner or later it will comeafter us.
Yes, I think so.
Well, I'm so happy to have youhere today with me to have this
(37:48):
discussion.
Is there anything that we wantto add before we?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (37:55):
conclude.
No, I'm very happy that youinvited me, because I think it's
such an important topic todiscuss and to also have just a
conversation on this level,because it's on so many levels
that you can discuss it and Ithink it needs to be discussed
it should definitely absolutely.
Hoiki Liu (38:14):
Thank you so much for inviting me and I'm so happy to
hear that this is now a coursebeing taught in the universities
.
It's not just a another fashiondesign or pattern making or
stylist course, but literallyreally being mindful about what
you're producing into this.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (38:30):
But and I also think like it's important,
it's important that it's beingtaught.
Hoiki Liu (38:35):
Yes, I think so because this is.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (38:37):
This is really something which is going
into the future generations, andthis is the only way we can
help this, this topic, out, youknow?
Hoiki Liu (38:45):
yeah, absolutely yeah .
So I mean the kids nowadays.
Like I said, it's not that theydon't know, but we have so many
bad habits from the previousgenerations that we've kind of
just brought them up with thatwe do need to make this change.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (39:00):
Yes, absolutely, and I think the
younger they are, the the thethe younger that you make these
things to a habit.
I think that's where we canmake a big change because I mean
a lot of it is habits.
Hoiki Liu (39:14):
I mean before the 80s or 70s.
No one would be going to aconvenience store to buy a
bottle drink when you're thirsty, you just have your water
bottle these are just habits,you know, yeah, this whole can
feel in or the modern world isnew habits that we've only built
in the last 20, 30 years,exactly yeah.
So, yeah, time to undo them.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (39:36):
Convenient had to go.
Yes, all right.
Hoiki Liu (39:40):
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Thank you, thank you, you.
Welcome to the Conscious Cut.
I'm your h ost, Hoiki Liu.
This podcast is all aboutrethinking sustainability across
fashion, lifestyle and everydaypractices.
Through conversations withentrepreneurs, policymakers,
educators and changemakers inHong Kong and beyond, we'll
explore real solutions, fromindustry-wide policies to the
(00:25):
small habits we can all adopt.
Let's cut through the noise andcreate meaningful change
together.
So today we have with us JaneScaffidi Abbate from Milan.
She's a professor at IEDUniversity and you teach
eco-design and circular design.
Is that correct?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (01:20):
happy to be here.
I think it's very important tohave these discussions because
you hear and you reveal a lot ofwhat is going on, and also
about the frustrations and whatis going well within the
industry as well.
Hoiki Liu (01:35):
Yeah, I mean we had a bunch of discussion about all
the problems and jumping allover here and then this morning
about, because there's just somany issues, like we were saying
today, even in one simplesentence.
When we're talking aboutsustainability and fashion,
there's probably like 10 issuesin that sentence that we can
jump into.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (01:54):
Yes.
Hoiki Liu (01:55):
But I guess let's introduce you to our audience a
little bit more and let themknow.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about your background and
maybe how you got intosustainability?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (02:04):
Yes, so I have a bachelor's.
So first, when I lived inDenmark, I had a diploma in
pattern making and tailoring.
Hoiki Liu (02:16):
Sorry, I'm just going to ask you.
I always thought you wereItalian because we met.
No, no, I'm actually notItalian, but I lived there more
than half of my life.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (02:24):
Okay, I see, sort of Italian.
I'm actually not Italian, but Ilive there more than half of my
life.
Okay, I see, sort of I'mactually Danish, all right, yeah
, um, anyways.
Um, so I'm, I have an educationin tailoring and and um, in
pattern making.
And then I moved to Italy and Iwas studying um in Istituto
Marangoni, where I did abachelor in fashion design and a
master degree in fashionstyling, so everything very
(02:46):
fashion in you know, the oldschool way.
Now, okay, um, and I've beenworking in different areas.
I've been doing costumes when Iwas in the united states for
houston ballet.
I worked in different ways withfashion throughout the years and
then, when I came back to Italyeight years ago, I started to
(03:07):
work for universities sodifferent universities in Italy,
within the fashion industry,and it was, I think, was like
two years ago, three years agomaybe.
I felt like something was wrong, the way that you know, like I
was teaching, obviously, whatshould be taught, but I didn't
feel like I was contributing tosomething better.
(03:29):
Okay, so I I actually decidedone day either I totally quit
the fashion industry or Istarted teaching something where
I can make a difference.
Yeah, and this is basically howI arrived at a point where, for
me, it was just wait, theindustry is just too much.
And this is how it actuallystarted with the sustainability.
(03:52):
I've always been interested inin the sustainability and how to
make it better, obviously, but,but this is where I really
started also to study by myselfto be able to, you know, provide
a better education also yeah, Ithink it's similar.
Hoiki Liu (04:07):
For me it's eventually you get to a tipping
point when you've been in theindustry for a certain amount of
time and you see all theproblems that that we haven't
ironed out and it's growing andit's just piling up and you just
see it, you just see yourselfgetting into it, you know.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:25):
So I think that's exactly where where I
arrived, at a point where Ididn't feel that there was
either.
Or, you know, I cannot stay inthis anymore.
Hoiki Liu (04:33):
Yeah, I didn't want to be part of, I didn't want to
continuously contribute to thisproblem.
Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:38):
Exactly, exactly, and I didn't feel it
was correct.
You know, like direct way I wasdoing stuff before.
Hoiki Liu (04:45):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (04:46):
So that was the tipping point.
Hoiki Liu (04:49):
Yeah, so I think let's also talk a little bit
more about eco-design.
How do you teach the kidseco-design?
How is it different from thefashion design that we know?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (05:06):
That we've been so used to all clips,
right, right, so.
So in eco design goes a lot ofdifferent topic, obviously, but
but the most important thinghere is that we start to design
a product where you have notjust eco design but where the
whole product turns circular,meaning you have the loop closed
, where the beginning of life ofa product also has an end and
(05:30):
has a new purpose in the circle.
So I think it's very importantthat for new designers, they're
taught to know the whole supplychain, but also to know that
when you start designing aproduct, you need to know what
is going to happen with it inthe end of life.
So when the consumer doesn'twant it anymore, what, where is
(05:52):
it going?
Are you going to recycle it?
Are you going to turn it intonew upcycled products?
What, what is going to happen?
And I think this is where, um,where it's getting really let's
put it like that difficult,because you have to create new
designers which are creative ina new way it's not just if
you're good at drawing somethingglamorous, but but in the
(06:15):
future you would need to.
You would need to design basedon what is already existing, and
I think that's going to be themost difficult part of it, but
it's also where you really seethe creative designers coming
out I, I totally agree.
Hoiki Liu (06:30):
I think, um what we've seen in the science so far
, that all the very extravagantthings it's great, but it's just
it can't last through time.
Exactly like it can sit.
Maybe it can sit there for alot and last through time, but
it's not something that you canrepeatedly bring out and wear
again and have it last two timesand.
I do agree.
I think maybe in like, maybenot in the short future where
(06:53):
we're still working, but maybeeventually, like when our kids
grow up, they're not going to bewearing things that's like this
Everyone's going to be wearingsomething that's redesigned from
something else, Right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (07:04):
right, yeah, Right.
And I think that's you know,when you're talking about
upcycling, often you think about, you know, something you stitch
together in your domesticsewing machine at home and looks
a bit homemade.
But I think where it's going tobe very interesting when the
big, both manufacturers but alsothe brands start coming
together and they're designingit together.
(07:26):
So the manufacturer is sayingto the brands look, I have 300
t-shirts which are purple,design something based on that,
and then so they can reuse whatthey already have.
You know, maybe it's just amatter of changing something and
then you can sell it in anotherway.
And I think that's where thereally creative part is coming
(07:48):
in, because it's also a verydifferent way to be creative,
but it's also very difficult.
Hoiki Liu (07:54):
I think people don't realize.
But just like it's actuallyeasier to create virgin
materials, it's easier to makevirgin polyester and virgin
nylon than it is to recycle andto reproduce it so same with
design.
If you're starting on a blankcanvas, it's actually much
easier than taking what you haveexisting and to recreate
(08:15):
something with that exactly,yeah, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (08:17):
And sometimes it's also difficult
because then you have like aweird color or a fit or
materials which are verydifficult to make work together,
yeah exactly so.
So I think it's, it's uh, Ithink it's going to be very
interesting, but but it shouldbe the way to go, because we
have um large productions whichare, you know, having a huge
(08:38):
stock.
They cannot do anything aboutan instrument, perfectly working
garment which is alreadyproduced.
So I think it's important thatthat.
But it's a matter of brands and, you know, manufacturers
working together I think.
Hoiki Liu (08:52):
As for consumers, they have to think about.
It's not even what they'redonating or they're getting rid
of or throwing out, but actuallya lot of the waste comes from.
I was asking the kids at myschool last week about this.
You know, what do you thinkhappens to all the clothes that
you see on the shop floors?
Let's forget even what's in thewarehouse for inventory online
(09:12):
just what's on the shop floor.
And then I mean, obviously yousee it's a new season, they're
all laid out beautiful, and thenthey go into sale and you know
there's still a lot ofeverything left.
But I mean I asked them there'slike 20 kids.
Do you think all like when we,when when uh brands go on sale,
do they think they selleverything?
Like everything is gone afterthis week of sales and we're all
(09:34):
we're done?
And I mean even the childrenknow they're like no, I'm sure a
lot of things are left over,right.
So that's the question what dowe do with all the leftover
things?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (09:43):
where does it go?
Hoiki Liu (09:43):
yeah, because I mean we know nowadays they don't go
to the outlets.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (09:47):
Outlets get their own outlet life
exactly, yeah, right, yeah, andthat's absolutely also
complicated.
You know you have outletshaving a specific collection
made for outlets, not like 15years ago where you could
actually find you went in anoutlet store where you would
actually have a lot, a big mixof all sort of stuff.
Now today it's like going intoa regular store.
Hoiki Liu (10:10):
It's going into a discount shop, basically like
for sub-level, subpar goods.
I almost want to say.
The second-hand store isbecoming more of what the
outlets used to be.
We know it when we're young.
It's like people are actuallytrying to treasure hunt Right.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (10:26):
In their now Okay.
Hoiki Liu (10:29):
I think this probably ties in really well with the
next thing that we can bring up,which is the upcycling workshop
you did with the kids.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (10:35):
Yes, so I think, as for me, the education
part is very important.
I think it's all which we'regoing to do in the future has to
do with information andeducation on so many different
levels.
So not too long ago he hadorganized a workshop on
(10:56):
upcycling different items.
It could be socks, it could bet-shirts, it could be already,
you know, like cutouts that theyhad from you know, the lab that
we have in the school, and theyinvited kids from four to ten
to come and do that, preparedsome small, you know, dolls and
octopus and stuff like that thatthey could make by hand really
(11:17):
fast.
But this opened the minds tothese kids that you can actually
take some stuff and you makesomething new out of it.
Okay, and this whole upcyclingconcept I think should be
introduced in many differentlevels for kids that's beautiful
.
Hoiki Liu (11:34):
Actually, one of the ideas I was talking to you about
the all the wastage I have leftfrom a bad production.
Maybe I should be thinkingabout the same thing.
Instead of just makingsomething else for sale, I
should involve the kids to makesomething that they can take
home, and they will so, sopurpose.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (11:50):
So it was fun because the workshop was one
and a half hour and obviously Ialready prepare a bit what they
could make.
Okay, so, but they made likelike bracelets, or they made
like small octopus or you know,like different things that they
could bring home and say like Iactually made this.
And I think just the fact thatyou actually make something
(12:10):
yourself already is a big result, especially if you're four or
five.
You know, like, I made this one, yeah, and I think that's what
we want to promote.
Also, when they get a bitbigger.
You know, I actually I rememberI did this because these things
are something that theyactually remember Right Without
going to.
It's not necessary that youhave to.
(12:31):
You know, make big events.
You know that you have to go toa roller coaster park or
something like this If you haveevents like this where they
actually feel like they'recreating something.
I am not saying it's going todo the same as a roller coaster
park, but you will know.
Hoiki Liu (12:46):
But you will have, like it's, building beautiful
small habits that they will havewith them, that they are now
able to see that, hey, I'm ableto make something.
I'm able to accomplish this IfI just give it a little bit more
thought, a lot of my thingsdon't have to be garbage.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (13:01):
But also, if you have that one sock, which
never has any, you know like nopartner Exactly.
You can actually use it forsomething.
Yes, yes, yes.
You know, I'm not saying thatyou have to make a hundred small
octopus out of a sock, right,but if you know that you can
actually use what you have forsomething else.
Yes, you know, it's a way forthem to start thinking if I have
(13:24):
a jacket that I don't useanymore because maybe it's too
short on the sleeve, could wemake it sleeveless?
Yes yes, yes.
So just for them to startthinking about how can I use
whatever I already have, but notonly with clothes, with
everything.
Hoiki Liu (13:47):
Yeah.
So it's a great way to triggerand kickstart a habit, like a
good habit of just thinking ofreusing it and stuff.
I mean because recycling isactually not the best?
No, absolutely not, I thinkeven even just the the thing
about fixing stuff.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (13:55):
Yes, so if you have a sock with a hole on
and I know it's cheap to go outand buy a new sock yes, and we
probably everybody got money fora new pair of socks but it's
just the fact that you'reactually fixing something yeah,
you know, you make the lifelonger.
The lifespan of that singleproduct is going to be so much
longer I've heard so manyreasoning from the.
Hoiki Liu (14:20):
I mean, I'm not going to specific any, but I just
heard so much reasoning frompeople in general saying oh, I
have to shop fast fashionbecause it's just affordable for
me, yeah because I don't havemoney for luxury.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (14:32):
Yes yes, yes, no, but in theory you don't
have to have because probablyyou don't need anything,
probably your closet is alreadyfull.
Yes, go and see if you havesomething in the closet, and if
you don't buy 10 of you know,like not even 10, maybe you can
buy five less of something andthen buy a really good quality
item you can keep for a longlong time, or I think the
(14:54):
extreme for me is I've actuallyseen this guy who was wearing a
uniclothes sweater with patches.
Hoiki Liu (15:00):
He's just been patching them up.
So I also want to say sometimesit's not so much a problem of
the quality of fast fashion, buthow do you care for your things
.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (15:09):
Right, right, and that's actually
another thing.
I also believe that a lot ofpeople do not know how to take
care of their clothes, I agree,so they wash it wrong.
Maybe they put stuff in thedryer which is not supposed to
go into the dryer.
I'm not saying you should dryclean too much, because that's
(15:31):
not good for the environmenteither, but try to see if you
can care for your clothes.
Maybe wear it one more timebefore you wash it or so I think
it's.
It's a matter also of how youtake care of the clothes.
Okay, you don't wash it toomany times and and again you buy
natural materials, because whenyou then wash all the plastic,
microplastic doesn't go out inthe water streams.
And that's another discussionas we talked about this.
(15:55):
It's a large topic and you knowwhen you start on one you start
on to another, you jump on toanother.
And that's also why I thinkit's's I'm not saying it's
difficult to discuss this topic,but there's so much, yeah, to
discuss.
So so, no matter in whatdirection you're going, I think
I believe that that we alwaysend up in different directions
(16:16):
there's always ways to do betterand there's all different ways
to do it, and um certain waysmight work for some people and
not for others.
Hoiki Liu (16:25):
I mean, but yeah, one of the things that you just
brought up about washing yourclothes and polyester clothes.
So, with recycled plastic andrecycled polyester, specifically
, that's one of the issues thatI always have.
I hate recycled polyestert-shirts.
Right, because those aret-shirts are something that you
have to wash all the time.
(16:45):
Right, and every time you wash,um, we have to realize, as
great as our technology has gonethrough, right now, the
recycled materials are alwaysgoing to be shorter filaments
than the, than the virgin ones,and it's just easier for more
microplastics to wash shop.
So one of the things I alwayssuggest to customers is put your
(17:05):
recycled polyester inside yourgarments, do the recycled
polyester filling, or even dothe recycled polyester outerwear
that you're washing unlimitedtimes, exactly, yeah.
So I think when we try to dogood, it's just if you have a
partnership and cooperation,people can remind you where you
can still do better, exactly,and where some things that you
(17:28):
know your intention is good butyou can't help it sometimes the
execution doesn't always comethrough, right, yeah so, yeah,
exactly, and I also think it's amatter of you know for the
designers.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (17:40):
You know designers with our you know
generation, yeah, they might noteven think about these small
ways, and I think here we aremissing an education span for
our generation, which designerswith a lot of you know, a lot of
experience, yeah, but they'renot taught to design in this way
.
Yes, so when you tell adesigner in our you know age
(18:04):
about this and they're like itmakes sense, yeah, but it's just
a matter of knowing it.
Like if you have a guts, youknow a cotton t-shirt, yeah, and
and you and you, you stitch itwith a polyester thread.
You know already, there it'sdifficult because then you
cannot recycle it, because thenyou have like a mixed product,
(18:25):
so it's a matter of you knowinglike you make a hundred percent
cotton t-shirt but you need tostitch it with cotton threads,
otherwise you cannot recycle it.
Hoiki Liu (18:35):
So that's actually one of the topics I know we're
jumping around again, but one ofthe things that I was just
telling people about I wasexplaining to the kids about
last week when I went in to givethem a briefing before Fashion
Summit.
They were asking me why can'twe just recycle our clothes,
like, why can't we just recycleit Like we would recycle the
plastic bottle or the cardboardbox?
(18:57):
You know, and I'm like it'sbecause most fabrics come in
mixed qualities and also a lotof the things, so, so, like they
.
I mean, after explaining, ifyou have a polyester cotton
fabric, you just can't separatethose filaments anymore.
It makes it hard to recycle.
But also one of the things thatthey were asking me how, like
(19:18):
you know, I might have a 50cotton, 50 polyester shirt, so
that's why I cannot recycle.
It could be 98 cotton and twopercent polyester and so that's
why I cannot recycle it.
It could be 98% cotton and 2%polyester and I still can't
recycle it because it's allmixed in.
And this is when we brought upthe other topic, greenwashing.
When they see a lot of thingslike on the hand tag, it was
tell them made of organic cottonor recycled polyester.
(19:40):
But when you actually becausethey're asking how come I can't
recycle the recycled polyestert-shirt?
Right, when I bought it it saidit's made with recycled
polyester, so in their heads Ican recycle it again.
Right, like something that camefrom recycling can also be
recycled again.
And I was like no, because ifyou actually look at the tag,
there is 5% of recycledpolyester, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (20:04):
And it's only 5%.
Yes, and I think that's alsoone of the big issues that
obviously brands want to sellsomething which is not.
I saw a pair of socks the otherday cashmere wool socks, where
you have 80% nylon acrylic, andthen you have 5% cashmere and
(20:26):
five percent wool, yeah, orsomething like that, and then in
the end it's you know, yeah,the percentage.
So you know it should be likenylon socks, yeah, with a bit of
cash exactly, yeah and I thinkthat's also why it's so
important that we start havingsome, some rules and
legislations, because noteverybody's reading what is on
(20:48):
it and if you're saying it's acash, you know if it's a
cashmere sweater, but there isonly 5% cashmere, it's not a
cashmere sweater it's whateverother cashmere, it's another
sweater.
Hoiki Liu (21:00):
Yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (21:01):
And I think that's very problematic.
But we're back to the greenwasthen.
Yes, then it's a completelydifferent topic again we're
never gonna end the never ending.
Hoiki Liu (21:13):
all right, okay, I think we've kind of mentioned
about um, upcycling and circularfashion and business, but let's
dig into it a little bit more.
Do you think, think this worksas a business?
Upcycling and I mean for myself, I have.
When I was asked this question,maybe around five, six years
ago, I had a very like come fromno, it doesn't work.
(21:38):
Like making individual piecesdoesn't work as a business, it
can only work in your own home.
But I'm having second thoughts.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (21:46):
So I think that if you make like, but not
like as a big corporation, mightnot work, but not not like as a
big corporation might not work.
But but if you're having alittle brand and if you make
your whole model around this,this upcycling, so maybe you
source your jeans.
If you want to make upcyclingjean stuff, you source your
(22:07):
jeans, the right you know from aplace you you get your
materials from a place where youyou know you can source X
amount a month.
Yeah, I think it's veryimportant to have like.
If you can sell X amount, it'svery important that you know
that you can have an incoming aswell.
Yeah, so that's a part of it.
(22:28):
Do I believe upcycling?
Upcycling could also be, ifyou're a big manufacturer and
you're having 100 coats that youcannot sell for some reason,
being able to have your designercutting off the sleeves and sew
something on instead, orchanging it so you can sell it
(22:48):
again, or collaborating againwith the brand saying I have
these coats, can you please comeup what do you think?
Hoiki Liu (22:55):
we make a collaboration that you design
something and we will fix it andwe can sell them without being
throwing out a hundred codes Ithink with brands collaboration
will be great, because that'sone of the things we're
mentioning is actually mostbrands when they, even after
they go on discounted sales,they have so much surplus left
leftover, exactly, um, as amanufacturer, I thought about
(23:15):
that because sometimes I haveleftovers but I can at this
moment only use on my dead stockbecause I'm quite worried about
customers branding and whatthey don't sell.
But, um, yeah, definitelyworking with the brand to let
them know.
Why don't we do this projecttogether?
Exactly, but it could also betheir leftovers yes, I think
most likely it would be likethat.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (23:35):
Yes, so if they have their branding and
stuff inside it as well, youknow it's not going to be an
issue.
Hoiki Liu (23:41):
Yes, in fact, you use it as a highlight.
Attribute Like this brand isupcycling what they didn't sell
yet Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (23:48):
So there is actually a good example that
Miu Miu, they upcycled some ofthe old denim jeans right, and
they made some unique pieces andthey're selling it, obviously
for an extreme amount of money,in their flagship stores.
Yes, yes, okay, and I thinkthat's a very good example
because I think it's veryimportant that brands like like
Prada and Miu Miu are giving anexample that it's actually
(24:09):
possible.
Hoiki Liu (24:10):
I think that's a great example, because there was
also, I think, just in the lastfashion week in Paris.
I'm not going to mention thebrand name, but there was also
another terrible example of oneof the brands using all the
wastage to create their fashionshow stage.
Okay, where, you know, thewastage is literally just going
to become garbage at the end ofthe show.
(24:30):
Yeah, yeah, but I think whatMiu Miu did with that is much
better and they also made acollaboration with, I think,
with levi's where they.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (24:38):
So I think it's very important.
Well, it's very important hereto make the distinction between
upcycling stuff like that, alsoin collaboration with other
brands, and then the you knowlike just collaborations and I
just want to say, the otherthing that I brought up is more
like it's not even upcycling,it's downcycling right.
Hoiki Liu (24:58):
You're ruining what could have been recycled.
Exactly yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (25:02):
Yeah, yeah , no, absolutely.
So I think it's very importantthat you know famous, big,
famous brand does make someexamples, Set the examples.
We can see it a bit.
It was a bit like when thebigger brands stopped using real
fur.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and it was likesmall rings in the water very
(25:22):
fast.
All fur went off the market andnow you basically don't.
It's almost bad.
Yes, exactly.
Hoiki Liu (25:32):
And no one really wants it.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (25:32):
So I think it's a matter of giving an
example, but it probably has tobe some of the big luxury brands
doing that, and I think themore they push it, probably the
further they can also go with it.
Hoiki Liu (25:46):
Yeah, I guess it's just with the bigger brands we
know that you assume that theyhave the finances to push
forward with a change, whereaswith smaller brands I always say
it's it, it's also feasible,but in a different way.
We have to look at it, not fromso much a financial way, but
how you can change your justdaily practices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (26:05):
right, maybe starting small but
continuously growing, exactlybut I also think it's a matter
of now that at least in europe,you need to start, you know, be
responsible for what you'rethrowing out.
Yes, so I think, at least forsmaller brands, it might benefit
you if you find a way to usewhat you already, first of all,
have produced and not have to,you know, keep going back to you
(26:27):
because you have to pay to getrid of this stuff.
Hoiki Liu (26:29):
You know, and it's just not right throwing out
stuff which is perfectly working, which is actually one of the
things I have two-sided views onthe product passports, digital
passport Only that thing,because you know, with my own
brand, right now I'm using a lotof dead stock, yeah, but it's
very hard for me to find backout.
(26:50):
Like, where is the stock fromexactly?
Like, the lab test that I willdo on it is the content test to
ensure that I have the rightcontent.
But besides that, you know, alab test of 20 times standard,
that's not even good enough forme.
So I do my personal test, whichis I just kind of test the
fabric myself.
I make a simple mock-up of asample and I just try wearing
that fabric day to day in theoffice at home and see how it
(27:15):
feels and how it washes.
You know if it fades, if itshrinks or if it's got some
chemicals in it.
That's making my skin itchy,which has actually happened once
, you know.
But so, like all these things Ibelieve in, so right now, for
my own collection, all myclothes, I expect it to go
through 200 washes, no problem,okay, yeah because, it's what's
I've tested out and I know so.
I think with small brands, whereit's difficult, it's also an
(27:39):
opportunity oh yeah, they justkind of have to find their
footing and ways around you knowwhat?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (27:43):
I think it's all a matter of you know
developing ways of doing thesethings, because if you make it
normal to your brand yeah, youknow making sure that you don't
throw out stuff yes, I think youcan.
If, if it's a habit, I thinkit's just the way that you can
make it work in the in thefuture and and if you want to
(28:07):
start up a brand, especially ifyou're a new startup, I think
it's very important to implementall these things from beginning
.
Hoiki Liu (28:12):
You know, basically create a circular brand from the
beginning, so you don't have togo back and need to change
these things and with the, thenew, um, I don't know if it's a
legislation, but like the newpassports, digital passports and
stuff, I think what it would begood is, in a way it will
stifle the competition.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (28:32):
That just can't make it exactly if they
can't give you the data.
They can't be transparent, theyyeah, and you cannot sell, that
you know and I and I hope thatalso it's going to help on the
market that we don't have somuch stuff yes, exactly that's
the other thing having if youhave to test everything like
t-shirts.
Yeah, maybe they will say like,okay, but we need to test them,
we need to have this and maybethat they cannot even provide.
(28:55):
Yeah, you know all theinformation.
Yeah, so like maybe we're justgonna have five.
Hoiki Liu (29:00):
Yeah same with the fabric supplier too, because if
they cannot figure out what thisyarn is exactly, then they
would just have to step away anddecide not to use it instead of
going forward, which mighthappen, what they do in the past
and just make something anyways, hoping that it would sell
Right, okay.
So, back and forth, we've kindof brought it back and forth
about well, you know, big brands, small brands, how do we make
(29:21):
circularity work for everybody,because you have worked with
different size brands, I alsowant to hear what is something
that you've seen that has worked?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (29:33):
That has worked, yeah, so yeah, so I
think it's very important tounderstand.
I was working when I just cameout of university.
I worked for a big fashioncompany and I learned a lot, but
this topic wasn't even you knowan issue, so obviously it was
(29:53):
not even to be implemented atthat time yeah, so.
So I think where we see it'sworking and where it's very
important is, um, when I havebeen working with smaller
companies, I think it's easierto implement it from the
beginning, obviously when youstart up okay right.
(30:15):
And it's easier to implementalso for smaller companies
because they're more agile.
You know they're produced.
They don't produce so manypieces, so also for the
production line they're they'rea bit faster to adapt.
Yes, obviously, being a smallercompany, you will have probably
less funds to invest in allthese, and that's obviously
(30:37):
difficult because sometimes youhave to do investments where you
don't see any returns yes atleast you don't see any returns
for the first, maybe five years,three, five years, yeah.
So if you have to change torenewable energy in your
factories or in your offices,that might not be a cost which
is coming back to you, yeah.
(30:57):
So a lot of these newinvestments might not be
something where you see a directbenefit, and that's obviously
difficult for smaller companies,but it will benefit from the
world, for the world, obviouslyon the long run.
For the bigger companies, theymight have much bigger fundings
for these things and they canmake departments.
(31:19):
But but at the same time, ifyou're producing in different
countries, if you have, like, alot of products, different
regulations, exactly you havedifferent regulations, you have
different markets and ofproducts, different regulations,
exactly you have differentregulations, you have different
markets and and you need toapply all these new rules to a
lot of different markets.
Obviously with a biggerproduction you would also have,
like you will not be as fast asmaking a turnover or a chain
(31:43):
make this change as a smallercompany might have, okay, so I
think I think it's a matter ofyou know like you see, and
obviously you won't see thebenefits as well as fast.
Okay, also, because for largercompanies, the investments are
obviously also bigger.
You might have to hire the wholeyou know like department of
sustainability and you might tohire um marketing as well.
(32:08):
So so obviously it's on another,it's just on another level.
That said, I still believe I'mnot saying that everybody have
to change 100% from one day toanother.
But what is important is thatif you just maybe you make, it
doesn't matter if you're a smallcompany or a big company, but
if you make, like, start outwith three goals, you know one,
(32:28):
something you can change rightaway.
Right, something you can changewithin the next half a year, a
year, and then something it willbe changing within the next
five years, and then you stickto them instead of saying like,
no, we need to change a hundredpercent everything, and then
you're gonna fail, you knowexactly.
So I think it's important thatmaybe you make uh, you make a
(32:49):
plan and then you start workingfor this plan.
Then now they're coming out, youknow, like laws that you have
to follow.
So obviously we have to followthose laws.
But for the other things, Ithink it's important that you
start doing the investments andthe you know like to, to do the
things that you are able to do,and then make a plan for it,
because I think that's the waythat you are able to do and then
(33:10):
make a plan for it, because Ithink that's the way that you
can come to success.
But also for the bigger companyand smaller companies I think
it's the same, but I thinkthat's very important that you
make a plan and try to stick toit.
I think it's also importantthat everybody is trying to do
just one little thing, thendoing it 100% and failing, so I
think I do agree with you.
Hoiki Liu (33:30):
I think for the smaller brands, because most of
the time, if they have this inmind, they might have started
from the beginning, exactly.
So everyone on their team kindof has this understanding and
they know this is the goal thatthey're working towards.
With a lot of the bigger brandsthat I've been working with, I
think most of the biggest issueis they've usually hired a team,
a sustainability team, that hasgreat understanding and this is
(33:53):
what they want to do.
But when it comes down to theprices or even the rest of the
company understanding thismission, when they don't
understand it, the finance teamdon't want to pay for it, right?
And so it's always like acircle that turns into a line,
right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:10):
And, obviously, what it comes down to
.
As it is business usually, whatit comes down to is a matter of
bottom line.
And often with these circularmethods in the beginning.
Obviously it's just more costly.
Hoiki Liu (34:28):
It is.
It just costs more.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:30):
And that's the investment as well.
I think we should see more asan investment in in the big
picture.
Hoiki Liu (34:36):
It's an investment, you know, not just a cost, and
also, I almost want to say Ifeel like I know the
government's doing a lot more tohelp with transparency, but for
those companies that'sobviously not being responsible
on their environment, I almostfeel like they need to have some
environmental tax slap onexactly, yes, exactly, or fines
(34:58):
and something.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (34:58):
I totally agree with that.
Hoiki Liu (35:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and maybe like their incentives for
businesses that are infestinginto this to ensure that they
have a circular future.
That doesn't.
Maybe there needs to be taxincentives on the other exactly,
exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (35:13):
But I think there is a lot of ways
that you know like you could,you, you could as governments,
help in this way also, becauseit's easy to make rules.
Yes, if you then don't help,yeah, you know, I mean, it's
very, it's a very fine line.
Hoiki Liu (35:26):
there's sometimes, uh , rules that kind of just it's
almost a line to keep newcomersfrom entering, but then there's
also rules that actually helpthe whole economy and the
environment.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (35:40):
But I also think it's maybe for some
companies which are working justfine you know they're selling,
they're doing their stuff it'svery difficult to understand
that they need to change asystem which has actually been
working really well for themuntil now.
Yes, you know, and now we haveto put in money in something
that we don't know where we'regoing to end up with, right,
(36:03):
yeah, so obviously incentivewould be, would be helping.
Hoiki Liu (36:08):
So obviously incentive would be helping, but
I guess at the end of the dayit's the whole world, including
the consumers, that mustunderstand, so the consumers can
first make better choices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (36:18):
Exactly so .
I think we're all responsiblefor this, both the brands and
the manufacturers, and also,especially also, the the
consumers, because you know thebrands are creating the need.
Of you know like they'rethey're saying.
They're telling us you need tohave a new shirt each time you
(36:38):
go into the store but it's notthe consumer stopping up saying
like two seconds yeah, yeah,yeah, I actually don't need that
one.
Yeah, okay, so and, and, and,then again for the brands
they're ordering, ordering fromthe suppliers, which they just
have to fit in Because thedemand the consumers are having,
this demand that we justcreated.
(37:00):
So it's a vicious cycle and Ithink we are all responsible.
I think everybody which iswearing clothes are responsible
for also knowing what is goingto happen with it afterwards and
where it's coming from.
Hoiki Liu (37:13):
You know, we need to be more involved in what we're
wearing and what is going tohappen with it, because, no
matter how much of a blind eyewe turn today, this problem is
going to show up at our doorstep.
Oh yeah, it's already in there.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (37:26):
Yeah, this is not going to disappear.
Hoiki Liu (37:28):
Yeah yeah, yeah, people are saying you can send
it out in space or you can sendit to Africa, south America, but
the problem is not going away,it's just moved.
Yes, yes, yes, you're justshifting it from one area to
another.
Sooner or later it will comeafter us.
Yes, I think so.
Well, I'm so happy to have youhere today with me to have this
(37:48):
discussion.
Is there anything that we wantto add before we?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (37:55):
conclude.
No, I'm very happy that youinvited me, because I think it's
such an important topic todiscuss and to also have just a
conversation on this level,because it's on so many levels
that you can discuss it and Ithink it needs to be discussed
it should definitely absolutely.
Hoiki Liu (38:14):
Thank you so much for inviting me and I'm so happy to
hear that this is now a coursebeing taught in the universities
.
It's not just a another fashiondesign or pattern making or
stylist course, but literallyreally being mindful about what
you're producing into this.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (38:30):
But and I also think like it's important,
it's important that it's beingtaught.
Hoiki Liu (38:35):
Yes, I think so because this is.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (38:37):
This is really something which is going
into the future generations, andthis is the only way we can
help this, this topic, out, youknow?
Hoiki Liu (38:45):
yeah, absolutely yeah .
So I mean the kids nowadays.
Like I said, it's not that theydon't know, but we have so many
bad habits from the previousgenerations that we've kind of
just brought them up with thatwe do need to make this change.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (39:00):
Yes, absolutely, and I think the
younger they are, the the thethe younger that you make these
things to a habit.
I think that's where we canmake a big change because I mean
a lot of it is habits.
Hoiki Liu (39:14):
I mean before the 80s or 70s.
No one would be going to aconvenience store to buy a
bottle drink when you're thirsty, you just have your water
bottle these are just habits,you know, yeah, this whole can
feel in or the modern world isnew habits that we've only built
in the last 20, 30 years,exactly yeah.
So, yeah, time to undo them.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate (39:36):
Convenient had to go.
Yes, all right.
Hoiki Liu (39:40):
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Thank you, thank you, you.
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