May 21, 2025 • 56 mins
Joining the co-hosts for THE Conversation’s premiere are guest panelists Robert Antonucci, Adam Subhas, and Olivia Masih White. Also appearing on the program are Sue O'Brien, Diane Jemmott, and Henry St. Julien. The inaugural program focuses on two topics, “When you hear Black Lives Matter, what does that mean to you?” and “How and why is this moment different from other periods of change?”
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Episode Transcript
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Rev. Will Mebane (00:05):
Hello. My name is Will Mebane. Welcome to the
conversation. This is a new showbrought to you by FCTV here in
Falmouth, Massachusetts on CapeCod. It's a new show that came
about because of incidentshappening in the aftermath of
(00:27):
the murder of George Floyd, ofthe rallies, protests, vigils
that have been held, but moreimportantly, perhaps the
conversations that have startedand that are ongoing.
And so with our good friendshere at FCTV, we have come
together to offer this venue ofwhich you are gonna be a part.
(00:52):
We're gonna ask you to join usin sharing your thoughts about a
myriad of issues and questionsthat have come up about race and
racism around the country,around the state and
Commonwealth of Massachusetts,and even here, or maybe
(01:12):
particularly here in our home,Falmouth. I'm delighted to have
as cohost of this new show, thisnew offering, Onjalé Scott
Price. Onjale is gonna introduceherself now and let let you know
a little bit more about what wehope to accomplish with the
(01:35):
show.
Onjalé Scott Price (01:36):
Thanks, Rev. I'm very excited about this
show. I think the best way forus to move forward as a
community, as a culture, as anation is to have difficult
conversations, to talk aboutthings that are uncomfortable,
to have significant discourseabout various topics. And I
(01:57):
think the topics around race andracism in light of recent events
is incredibly important. It'sthe elephant in the room.
It's the the thing that's alwaysthere, but doesn't always get
talked about. It influences usin ways that we don't even
realize. And I think it'simportant for us to have these
conversations so we can makeFalmouth and our nation and the
(02:19):
world a better place for all ofus to live and enjoy. So I'm
really looking forward to havingsome conversations with you,
Rev, and with our guests, andwith the community.
Rev. Will Mebane (02:32):
Thanks, Onjalé. So neither Onjalé nor I
profess to have the answers. Infact, we are quick to admit that
we don't have the answers. We'vegot lots of questions, though.
And so we're gonna pose somequestions to you, members of
Robert Antonucci (02:47):
the
Rev. Will Mebane (02:48):
community, and you'll be hearing some answers
to the questions we have forthis first show. And who knows,
in future shows, you might havea chance to be on camera as well
and answer one of the questionsthat we're gonna pose. So
without further ado, why don'twe go now to the first question
(03:09):
that we've asked some peoplehere in Falmouth to address?
Henry St. Julien (03:13):
What does Black Lives Matter mean to you?
Diane Jemmott (03:18):
Black Lives Matter means to me different
things. It mostly means to methat there's a validation that
my life is important as a blackwoman in this country or in this
world, actually. At the sametime, it is very disheartening
(03:38):
that in 2020, we have toproclaim that our lives matter.
Well, to
Susan O'Brien (03:44):
me, Black Lives Matter makes me think of the
four hundred years of oppressionthat folks in this country have
experienced, continueddiscriminatory behaviors. It
also helps me to remember thatchange will only happen for
humanity, when we see people asparts of humanity rather than
defining them by race.
Henry St. Julien (04:04):
It's it's for me, it's it's trying to get
people not to be defensive. Youknow, when we talk about Black
History Month and people say,hey, why is there a white
history? Well, there's aproblem. There is a problem. And
so we focus on black history.
We focus on, gender issue. Wefocus on different things when
(04:26):
there's a problem. And so rightnow, there's always been this
problem, but we're focused on itand we're like saying, let's do
something. Let's not just cryout, but let's take positive
steps.
Diane Jemmott (04:38):
It makes me feel good when I ride around and I
see signs. It makes me feel likepeople are paying attention and
they care, but it also makes mesad that we have to put out
signs. My belief is we're allhuman beings. We come into this
(04:59):
world equal. We have createdinequality, and it's time that
it gets fixed.
Henry St. Julien (05:06):
Our attention right now is on Black Lives
Matter. I think it's a humanright issue. I don't think it's
politics, and that's what theproblem is right now is we're
all divided, but it's a humanright issue. It doesn't matter
whether you're right or left,there's suffering going on, and
we should all be having ourminds set on Black Lives Matter.
(05:28):
So that's that's me.
I I I really feel that that'sit's a human condition. It's a
human issue, and we should alljump in and say, yes. I agree
with that.
Rev. Will Mebane (05:41):
Welcome back. Wow. And those were some
powerful responses we receivedfrom those who participated in
our sort of on the street, butmore like in the park interviews
there. Lots for us to considerand to discuss, and Anji and I
(06:03):
are privileged, delighted to bejoined by three individuals who
are who have joined theconversation and are gonna help
us unpack some of what you havejust heard. I first want to
introduce and welcome BobAntonucci, well known Falmouth
resident, superintendent ofschools, formerly here in
(06:25):
Falmouth, MassachusettsEducation Commissioner, and now
president emeritus of FitchburgCollege.
And we thank you for for beingwith us today. Adam Shubash is
also with us and grateful toAnji for making the connection
(06:47):
with Adam to get him to be partof the conversation today. And
we will be hearing a lot fromhim, and he has a very
interesting background as all ofall of our guests do. And there
is a common thread between Adam,is a scientist in Witchhole, and
(07:09):
the next person I'm gonnaintroduce, is Olivia Massey
White and with Indian rootsherself. So Adam and she share
that in common.
And I'll say a little bit moreabout each of you as we get into
the conversation. So why don'twe begin with asking you,
(07:30):
Olivia, to give us your reactionto what you just saw and to give
us what what do you think ofwhen you hear the phrase black
lives matter?
Olivia Masih White (07:47):
You know, it's interesting having come
from India some fifty plus yearsago. So I have seen lots of
racial discrimination from thesixties till now. So having seen
this sign here and knowing thatwe will be taking part in
conversation, I had time tothink about what do I think
(08:10):
about what lives matter. One ofthe thing that my first thing
that comes to my mind and notonly that when I see the sign, I
have put signs in my own yard.So first I see the sign is I
acknowledge that black livesreally do matter.
(08:32):
There's something to be said byputting the sign. They haven't
been treated equally. They havenot been given the kind of
education or respect orprivileges like everybody else
did. So I put that sign up justto acknowledge that they have
(08:54):
not been treated. And then I putthe sign up because I want to
take some responsibility,Responsibility that maybe
somehow directly or indirectly,have not done enough so the
black lives could matter.
And last, I will say my thirdreason is that if I acknowledge
(09:17):
it, if I take responsibility,then it's time for me personally
to take some action take someaction so justice could be done
for all individuals who areblacks, who have not been given
the privileges that others had.
Rev. Will Mebane (09:37):
Well, we know that some signs, once they've
been put up, have been takendown by vandals. And I'm gonna
give Anja a chance to talk withAdam a little bit about that
because I think she's familiarwith an experience he may have
had with that himself. But letme go to Bob first, and and
(10:01):
first of all, I apologize. Ireferred to it as Fitchburg
College. It showed you how old Iam.
Fitchburg State University.Grateful again for your presence
with us today. So what comes tomind for you when you hear that
phrase? When you hear whensomeone chanting, shouting,
(10:21):
black lives matter. So what doesthat mean?
Robert Antonucci (10:25):
First of all, I graduated from Pittsburgh
State College when I was acollege, so I accept your
introduction. That was fine.What it means to me is a call to
action. That phrase where I seeit on signs, when I read about
it in the newspaper, when I hearus talking about it today, it
says to me, it's a call toaction. We need to do something.
(10:45):
You can say that we've done itin the past twenty, thirty,
forty, fifty, hundred years. Idon't think we've done as much
as we should have done. Andwe're at a critical junction now
in this country and in thisworld. As we heard in the
videos, you know, we're talkingabout human beings. Human being,
whether they're white, black,gay, transgender, whatever, is a
human being.
(11:05):
And so when we see that sign, wehave to respect that. There has
to be a respectful attitudetoward people today. And I think
that's what that sign brings tome when I see it. I'm glad we're
seeing so many of it. I don'tthink it's sign that has
anything derogatory about it,and and if anything, it has a
positive ring to it.
(11:27):
And so hopefully, as we seethose signs, as we get out of
this pandemic, we can begin totake more active action. I think
now we're talking a lot aboutit. We'll continue to talk about
that. This conversation is aperfect example. But at some
point, we're going to have totake some aggressive steps.
It's more than about the police.It's more than about government.
(11:47):
It's about all of us. All of ushave a critical role to play. We
have to step up to the plate.
I hate to use the baseballanalogy. We have to hit that
ball, and we have to make surewe hit some home runs.
Rev. Will Mebane (12:01):
Anji, let me now I'm hand off to you and have
you engage Adam in thisconversation.
Onjalé Scott Price (12:08):
Yeah. So I've been recently getting to
know Adam, and one of our firstconversations was actually about
his Black Lives Matter signsthat were stolen from his yard.
And I know he lives over thereoff 28 right now, and I thought
to myself, how how much do youreally want to take a sign that
you are willing to stop or pullover on such a busy road to take
(12:31):
the sign out of someone's yard?So not only are you putting
yourself in danger with withwhere the house actually is
located. I I drove by itrecently.
And to go on to someone'sproperty and take a sign. And so
that made me really think, okay,when I think of Black Lives
Matter, I think of like like Robsaid Rob said, just not just
(12:52):
about the police or about themilitary, about our government.
It's it's about people. And sowe need to respect that people's
lives have not mattered in thepast and now. And that's what
we're promoting is that blacklives do matter.
And so when someone wants totake that sign, they want to
remove that, what are they whatare they trying to say? Are they
(13:13):
trying to say that black livesdon't matter? Are they trying to
say that they don't want blacklives to be equal? And so I know
we can't necessarily speak towhat that may what people may be
meaning when they take thosesigns. But I wanted to talk to
you, Adam, a little bit abouthow it how it made you feel to
have your signs continuallystolen.
And you've told me about thethings that you've done to try
(13:34):
to deter people from stealingthem. I hope you can share some
of those things. But just what'sit been like to to have those
stolen and and knowing thatsomeone is is taking them from
you on purpose?
Adam Subhas (13:46):
Yeah. Thanks, Anji. And thanks for including me in
this conversation. It's reallyI'm I'm really happy to be here.
Yeah.
It's it's been an interesting,process. You know, I I I feel
like I, first put up a signright after, hearing about
(14:10):
George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.And I I feel like I felt very
similarly to, to you, Bob, andand you, Olivia, that, you know,
it's a statement. It's somethingthat that, is is, projected out
into the community and kind ofaffirms that black lives matter
because they do matter. And likeyou said, Olivia, it's also, you
(14:35):
know, a reminder to me everytime I come home that I see it,
and it's a reminder of, youknow, this what am I gonna do
personally to to to make surethat that black lives matter?
And so I I put out this sign,and, initially, it lasted about
(14:55):
a week before it got taken. Letme let me rephrase that. It
lasted about a week beforesomeone took it and put some
very racist kind of flyers in mymailbox along alongside them
taking the sign. And, you know,I I then had kind of went
(15:23):
through the channels ofreporting it to the police.
Turns out putting something insomeone's mailbox is a federal
crime.
And so they you know, they'rereal kind of repercussions for
someone taking this action. It'sillegal. But, also, just from a
from a, you know, standpoint ofme taking action, I said I
(15:46):
couldn't let this stand. So Iwent out and got two more signs
and put them out. Those lastedall of, I think, twenty four
hours, before they got takenagain.
The next thing I did was putsome up in the tree so that they
couldn't be taken from the road.And then the last thing I did
(16:08):
was put I actually had a friendof mine weld a a metal sign that
I put into the ground with apost hole digger and put
concrete footings on it. And itturns out, Anji, I I don't know
if I told you this, but thatsign got stolen just a couple of
(16:29):
days ago. So they managed to sitthere, and I don't I don't know
how long it took them to digthis thing out. But they dug it
out, and it's gone now.
So, this is real effort thatthat people are putting into us,
you know, silencing this these,these voices that I think all of
(16:49):
us are are we wanna lend ourvoice in support of black lives
in in the ways that we think wecan. This has been framed by the
media or some some people in themedia as a free speech issue,
and I just think that's that'snot the right way to think about
this. I mean, this is a it's ahuman rights issue. It's it's a
(17:12):
personal issue, an issue of of,you know, humanity and and
respecting everyone in theirlives, and not just their lives,
but their voices and theircontributions to society and
their minds and their thoughtsand all that that goes with a
life. And the fact of thatmatter is that these black lives
(17:39):
and and everything that comesalong with that has been have
been repressed and not listenedto and sidelined for so long.
And, you know, taking this signand silencing this voice is
just, I think, one more exampleof how this this happens in all
sorts of ways in our community.And it's just it's really
(18:03):
frustrating to see that happen,but I won't stop putting signs
out. So I gotta think of thenext thing to do to to prevent
this sign from getting stolen.
Onjalé Scott Price (18:12):
I think I'll
Rev. Will Mebane (18:13):
give you an go ahead, Anji.
Onjalé Scott Price (18:16):
I'm sorry. I just wanted to say I I think it
like you said, it goes to showhow voices have been stifled in
the past. Is that if you justput a sign out and people don't
wanna see the signs, they takethe signs. I I think that really
speaks to this movement and howstrong this movement is that
people are trying to silence itin that way is that they don't
even want to see it because theyknow that it means something and
(18:38):
they probably don't necessarilyagree with it. So it is
frustrating to know that you putconcrete footing down and it's
it's still being taken.
That means that people whoeverthese people are, they are
working very hard to silence,which I think is a reflection of
what we've been going through aspeople working hard to keep
(19:00):
black people silenced. And andso it's a interesting dichotomy
there.
Rev. Will Mebane (19:08):
I was gonna give you one suggestion, Adam. I
I think I think you've you'veyou've made heroic efforts to
make sure your your signremained in place there. We
actually put ours on the roof.We we live we live on Main
Street in Falmouth, a very busyarea, heavily trafficked area
(19:30):
trafficked area. And I knewthere was a risk of the sign
being stolen if we simply put itin the front yard.
And so we had someone come andbolt it to the roof line. I'm
still waiting, you know, forsomeone to make an effort to to
(19:52):
access it or vandalize it insome way, but that may be your
may maybe the next option foryou to put it upon the roof. But
that I wanna go back, though.Wanna challenge each of you to
go a little deeper on this. Eachof you has probably heard people
(20:12):
say when you wear a button thatsays black lives matter or you
carry a sign, you know, theretort from folks usually is,
don't all lives matter?
So how do you how do you respondto that? What do you say to
someone who takes that posture?Whichever one of you would like
(20:33):
to speak. Go ahead, Olivia.
Olivia Masih White (20:35):
You know, it's interesting. As Adam was
talking, I remember that lastyear, I put up a sign when some
shooting had taken place. And Iwas con confronted by somebody
in my church and says, don't alllives matter? Why did you put
(21:01):
that sign? It just so happenedthat that person not only
belongs to my church, but healso lives in my neighborhood.
So I said, of course, all livesmatter. But the sign I put there
is because it's the blacks thathave been marginalized. They are
the one that the police havebeen going after. They are the
one that lives is endangered.They are the one they haven't
(21:24):
been treated, and that's why Ihad put my sign.
Well shortly after that the signdisappeared. I'm not sure as to
who took it. So mydaughter-in-law happened to have
another sign and so I put thesecond sign. It stayed there and
I still have a sign and it hadnot been taken. But I the more I
(21:47):
think about it that it is havingthat sign now, it gives people
when they see it.
And, you know, we're talkingabout living here in Falmouth.
And I have seen the signs quiteoften in the houses that are not
(22:10):
owned by African Americans, butthese are people that is the
white community. So it gives mehope that the community is
getting behind in recognizingthis is not fair, that the
blacks' lives do matter, andthere is some action that needs
to be taken.
Rev. Will Mebane (22:32):
Yeah. Thank you. You know,
Robert Antonucci (22:34):
similar when people say that, you know, all
lives do matter. There's noquestion about that. But here,
we're talking about the issuesof equity and discrimination. If
everybody was equal in terms ofwhat we're addressing, we
wouldn't need that sign thatsaid black lives matter. But
black lives do matter becausethere has been discriminatory
(22:55):
practices.
There has not been equity amongthe races. And so though all
lives do matter, we're rising tothe top here about issues where
it's not working. So lives ofthe blacks and lives of certain
minority communities have to beaddressed. And I come from the
education world, both k to 12and and higher ed. And we
(23:17):
forever are talking aboutequity, in what we do, both in
terms of students we admit, interms of our curricula, but we
haven't gone far enough.
Times have changing. Times havechanged. And as I said earlier,
the call of action says we justwe have to do more than we're
doing now. And I think if wefocus on the human aspect, if we
focus on the issue of equity,and we focus on the issue of
(23:40):
discrimination among and betweenraces and genders, we'll make
some progress. It's gonna takesome long time.
It's gonna take some hard effortby a lot of people. The sign as
and the damage done to signs isone small issue. But if you look
across this country in varioussegments of this country, the
discrimination practices are fargreater than we see here. That
(24:03):
doesn't mean that we can't domore here in the community of
Falmouth than our surroundingcommunities, but we need to look
at it as the national priority.And I'm not sure the leadership
at times see it as a nationalpriority.
So it takes people like ushaving a conversation about it
and hopefully that will spreadand people will begin to take it
serious and make a difference.
Rev. Will Mebane (24:26):
Adam, you have a a thought about retort? Yeah.
Adam Subhas (24:34):
I guess, you know, that this the that retort, it it
it's it's interesting becauseall of these things are you
know, they're reactionary.Right? Their their reaction to
seeing this statement and andalmost you know, I feel like a
lot of this and and I'm I'mguilty of this. I think all of
(24:57):
us are that we get we getdefensive about our own notions
of what, you know, our values,what we what we feel. And and
something like this, it's so itruns so deep in our culture that
it's really hard for us to dealwith, I think, as as a society.
(25:17):
And so this this reaction of alllives matter, I think, is it's
it's the immediate, you know,defensive, like, well, fine,
but, you know, all lives matter.And you're saying, you know, of
course, all lives matter. Butthe fact of the matter is there
has been this discrepancy in inbetween black lives and white
(25:42):
lives for for centuries now. Andthis is a this statement, black
lives matter, is a recognition,I think, of that. And the fact
that it runs so deep, I feellike, makes it so much harder
for people to kind ofinternalize and and deal with
and and reconcile.
Rev. Will Mebane (26:00):
And
Adam Subhas (26:02):
that's that's just a hard thing to know what to do
with. But the, you know, theother thing is that it's it is a
reaction and a a defense to theBlack Lives Matter movement. And
I think that's an importantthing to to to recognize for us
too in terms of moving theconversation forward.
Rev. Will Mebane (26:27):
I wanna ask my cohost, Anji, what do you say
when people respond, well, don'tall lives matter? Why why draw
attention to black lives?
Onjalé Scott Price (26:41):
It's it's interesting. I I was thinking
about that this morning when Isaw what happened in Lebanon
with the the explosion inLebanon and people are, you
know, doing hashtag pray forLebanon and send help to
Lebanon. And I thought, in a wayis this similar to the Black
Lives Matter movement wherewe're saying in this moment
(27:01):
right now something is happeningin this country and they need
help and they need prayers. Arethere other countries who are
saying, well don't all countriesneed prayer? Don't all countries
need help?
And I realized this is not aapples to apples comparison. It
kind of made me think, is thiswhen people ask that, I'm
thinking, are you focused on thefact that this is a current
(27:26):
movement for what has beenhappening like we've said for
centuries? Or are you seeingthis as as a a momentary thing
that is going to be passing andit's just about right now and
what we're seeing on TV withwith police brutality? And if
you're only focusing it on thismoment right now and not
realizing the history behindthis movement or what this
(27:48):
movement really stands for, thenthen you're missing the whole
point. And so by saying alllives matter, you're you're
telling me that you're missingthe whole point.
You're not understanding thatwe're seeing this movement right
now. Yes. But this movement hasbeen coming and it it needs to
keep going. I'm not sure if if Iarticulated that in the best
(28:09):
way.
Robert Antonucci (28:10):
You did.
Onjalé Scott Price (28:12):
Okay. Thanks. So when people say it to
me, I do say, well, of course,all lives matter, but we're just
focusing on the ones that havenot always mattered. Can we at
least agree that at some point,whether you wanna believe that
was in recent years or hundredsof years ago, that black lives
(28:32):
did not matter. At one point, Iwould would have been considered
three fifths of a person.
I think we can agree that thatmeant that my life as a whole
did not matter. So could you atleast understand why we feel the
need to say that? Andconversation doesn't always go
well, but it starts somewhat ofa conversation.
Rev. Will Mebane (28:52):
Well, thank you each for sharing that
because I'm I'm still grappling,frankly, for how to respond to
that. And maybe I'm I'mgrappling because it touches me
in a very deep and an emotionalway when someone asks that. And
I I guess I'm just notunderstanding why it's so hard
(29:14):
for them to understand why suchstatement such a statement is
necessary. So I've been tryingout a a few responses. I'm
curious as to what you mightthink about them.
So I had a young girl ask mejust a few weeks ago. Her mom
came to me and said, I'm tryingto teach her, you know, why
(29:36):
these people why people aresaying black lives matter, why
we see these signs and all. Andshe said, can you help her? So
one of the things you do as apriest and people come to you
and look for guidance andcounsel and what have you. And
so I I spoke with the with thelittle girl, and I said, well,
think of it like this.
(29:57):
You live in a house, and everyhouse in your community, every
house in your street matters.Right? It's important to
everybody. And but if your housecatches on fire, your house
needs to matter more than theallergist at that moment because
(30:20):
we need to put out the fire. Thefire has to be put out.
And she seemed to grasp that andand and and agree with that. I
was talking with an older persona few weeks ago and was trying
to have the same conversationwith them. So and I said, well,
(30:41):
let's think about it like thinkabout it like this. So when we
if you and I show up in theemergency room at Falmouth
Hospital at the same time, andI've got a sprained ankle from
jogging around the block, andyou come in and you've just been
(31:01):
in a serious car accident, andyou've got broken bones, and you
are bleeding, which patient isgoing to get the attention
patient should get attention atthat time? I would think you
would be incredulous if theyattended to my sprained ankle
(31:26):
while they left you bleeding onthe emergency room floor.
So I don't know if that washelpful or not, but I'm just
looking for ways, real, lightways, so people are trying to
understand why at thisparticular moment, it's so
important to embrace the factthat black lives matter. Anyone
(31:47):
have a a comment or response to,you know Yeah. I I
Robert Antonucci (31:51):
Oh, go ahead.
Rev. Will Mebane (31:52):
And I'll come to you, Bob. Yes.
Robert Antonucci (31:53):
Yeah. No. Go ahead.
Olivia Masih White (31:57):
I I feel like it it's interesting since
when I came from India, itreally shocked to me how African
Americans were treated. Theywere not treated like they were
equal human. I went on tocollege and I studied and my
(32:19):
field is genetics and I taughtat a university for twenty
years. And one of the thing thatI always big lecture in every
class, I will talk about thatevery individual, every human
being exactly alike, geneticallyspeaking. We have now
(32:44):
identified.
We have completed the wholehuman genome. We have about
200,000 to 25,000 genes in ourbody. So let's assume we have
20,000. 90 nine point ninepercent of genes are exactly
alike in every human being.99.9.
(33:10):
Almost hundred just point 1%different. So if you're looking
at 20,000 genes you have out of28,000 only 20 genes are
different than all the other. Soif anybody needs to go to the
hospital for blood transfusionor organ transplant, you don't
(33:32):
look at the skin color, youdon't look at the color of the
eyes, you don't look at thetexture of their hair. Those 20
genes that make you differentfrom other human beings are
simply the ones that give youeither color of the eyes or your
(33:52):
skin color. That domain,genetically speaking, we are
exactly all alive.
So the question shouldn't evencome to be asked whether all
lives matter or not because weare we are all human beings, and
it has been way too long wherepeople have not recognized the
(34:14):
fact that everyone, every singlehuman being is exactly alike. We
are all made similarly. So sothat's that's my genetics
lesson.
Rev. Will Mebane (34:27):
Thank you, professor. Thank you. Bob, let's
hear hear hear Yeah.
Robert Antonucci (34:33):
No. I was just responding. And that was that
was great, by the way. Wasresponding to your comments
about, you know, the examplesthat you used. I thought they
were perfect.
What did those two examples do?It heightened the awareness of
the issue. And I think that'sall we can do at this point. We
heighten it, and we need tobegin to show respect for what
this movement is all about. Butthe more difficult part will be
(34:55):
the action that we need to takemoving on.
But if we don't heighten theawareness, and and it's good to
feel uncomfortable about it.When people question us, so we
question them. You know? I don'tmind being uncomfortable. I
don't mind making other peopleuncomfortable.
That doesn't mean it's in in anantagonistic way. It's a matter
of an issue that we need todiscuss and be open about it. I
(35:17):
think on a college campus, wesee that openness. Whole
differences of opinion exist. Ifwe could take that and just make
that part of society wherepeople don't feel threatened
because we talk about it.
And so this is not a threateningmovement. It's more a movement
to respect humans as you justheard and to ensure that
everyone is treated equally.
Rev. Will Mebane (35:41):
So we are living in a different time. Some
people are saying that this is atipping point, that this is
unlike any other period in thisyoung nation's history in terms
of people coalescing around theneed to demand justice for all
(36:06):
of its residents. And so weasked some people in the
community to respond to aquestion. So how is this moment
different from other momentswhen there were demands for
(36:27):
civil and human rights in thiscountry. So join me.
We're gonna take a listen towhat some of those responses
were, and we'll come back to thestudio and ask you to weigh in
as well.
Henry St. Julien (36:44):
How is this moment different?
Diane Jemmott (36:47):
This moment in time is different, I think,
first and foremost, because it'sglobal. The timing of it during
a global pandemic hascontributed to the press
coverage and media coverage andsocial media and the attention
of people from all over theworld. This is different because
(37:10):
people are engaging from allwalks of life. We have come to a
realization that this life justisn't equal and on a lot of
different fronts. Therefore, weneed to band together to make
this a better place to live.
And I
Susan O'Brien (37:28):
think that with the murder of George Floyd, that
has been used as a catalystthrough social media, to not
only have the systems thatcontinue to work against many in
this country also catapulted itinto a an international
spotlight. So I think thatthat's really different than
what we've had in the past,least in this country.
Henry St. Julien (37:50):
So right now, the difference is, there is a
heightened, acknowledgment. Wesee Travon Martin, and then
we're seeing, George Floyd, andthen we actually saw it on TV
and we're like, there issomething wrong. And I think the
whole world can see it, thatthere was something wrong. You
(38:11):
saw human suffering right there.You couldn't deny it.
Diane Jemmott (38:15):
So people are asking questions. People are
getting involved. They'reexpressing an interest in trying
to understand how we've allowedthis country to grow into a
place where there is noequality. If we have equality,
because of the fight that hasgone on for years and years and
(38:39):
years, if we develop a systemthat has equality, we could live
in a much more harmonious place.People need to embrace
difference.
They need to understand we don'tall have to be alike. We're
never gonna be alike. We don'tall have to think alike, but we
do need to be respectful. And weneed to understand that you are
(38:59):
not privileged because of thecolor of your skin or how much
money you make or what yourparents' last name is. It's
because you're a human being,and we're all human beings in
this together.
Onjalé Scott Price (39:16):
So we we heard people say a little bit
about why they feel like thismoment is different. There's the
aspects of social media, thisbeing more of a global issue
now, getting more awareness inin not just our community here
in The United States, butworldwide. We've seen that there
have been Black Lives Matterprotests on pretty much every
(39:38):
continent. I don't maybe notAntarctica, but all all the
inhabited ones. You know, so wewe're seeing a lot of support.
And I have my own opinions onwhy there's so much support, but
I'd like to hear from from ourguests. What do you all think?
Why do you think that thismovement is so different, and
why is it so different thistime? Start with Olivia.
Olivia Masih White (40:01):
I I think that you framed it what you said
is really true that there issocial media now, you know,
information from one minute tothe other. You can mobilize
everybody within seconds, andeverybody can put a sign up. So
it's the social media. Also, Iwill say that this pandemic have
(40:30):
something to do with it. We areunder so much stress, And I will
also say that there is somethingto be said about this
generation, not the people fromthe other generation and not
your generation will either.
But this generation, theactivism, I think that is really
(40:53):
very contagious. I think theseyoung people had some benefit
that the blacks did not havehundred years ago, fifty years
ago. They are giving opportunityfor education. There have been
role models for them like MartinLuther King and John Lewis. But
(41:13):
I think that this is theactivism is the young generation
that I think is really flamingthe fire of activism.
Onjalé Scott Price (41:25):
Were you talking about my generation?
Because I I would I'm hopingthat you're including me.
Olivia Masih White (41:29):
Yes. I I'm talking about this generation of
the twenties and thirties andforties, you know, younger than
me. My
Robert Antonucci (41:37):
And younger than me.
Onjalé Scott Price (41:38):
Alright. That's us, Adam. That's us.
Adam Subhas (41:40):
Alright. Adam
Onjalé Scott Price (41:43):
or Bhagavad, do you guys wanna comment on
that?
Adam Subhas (41:45):
Yeah. I can I'll jump in here. Well, thanks for
your your vote of encouragementand support, Olivia, for our
generation. And, you know, thereare people younger than us too.
I mean, I'm I'm considered amillennial, and we're already
old compared to Gen z or I thinkit's Gen z is the the the ones
(42:09):
who love it.
Right? So That
Onjalé Scott Price (42:10):
that sounds right.
Adam Subhas (42:11):
And and, you know, they're doing they're doing
amazing things too. I mean, justthink about the the way that
high schoolers were able tomobilize after all the school
shootings that happened
Olivia Masih White (42:26):
Mhmm.
Adam Subhas (42:26):
Last year. I mean, it's just it's just incredible
to watch. And but I think you'reright that we've we've built on
so much activism that hasalready happened in this country
and all over the world. I mean,I think the the example that I
come back to, you know, I feellike our generation has made
some some progress in racialissues, also LGBTQ issues, but
(42:49):
we can't deny the influencethat, you know, Stonewall and
the Stonewall riots had on onreally framing the issues for us
and setting things out in inthis really stark way. And and
this time we're living in rightnow, I feel like is this is
another moment where everythingis kinda getting framed in this
(43:10):
way and just lays it out.
Right? And maybe it's that we'reall stuck at home and so this is
this is all we see. There's nosports. There's no you know,
live TV isn't really a thinganymore. And so this is this is
what we're seeing.
Right? And we're we're stuckwith it. And I think at a more
philosophical level, at leastfor me, it's you know, I
(43:33):
particularly with Black LivesMatter and and civil rights in
general in this country, youknow, we we're feeling stuck and
we're feeling like we're notmoving, we're not progressing.
And I see that, you know, now Ithink it's it's become even more
clear that that is reflected ina lot of the you know, some of
(43:54):
the progress with the BlackLives Matter movement that it
you know, there is there areconstant barriers to progress in
terms of systemic racism and allthese things. And I think it
maybe has taken a globalpandemic to really frame those
issues in a way where all of asudden people like me and, you
(44:19):
know, other white people andpeople who are not black are
actually starting to see thatand really internalize it for
for for the the systemic issuesthat are that are in front of in
in facing the black community inThe US.
Robert Antonucci (44:36):
Let me just jump in, I think, and just pick
up on that because I think bothcomments both people making
positive comments. This is a a aon a side, I think everyone
being at home during thispandemic and having to talk to
each other and not going to workor working from home, and I'm
talking singles, married,anybody, we spent a lot of time
(45:00):
together. And we're usingtelevision as we're doing right
now and social media much morethan we ever have. So I think
the issue came to light a lotquicker than if we had been in
normal times when we're allrushing to catch a subway or
rushing to work or rushingaround shopping. The whole
country slowed down.
The whole world slowed down. Andmaybe that's a lesson to all of
(45:22):
us. We were able to slow downand finally focus on an issue
that's important to us. And ifwe use this issue as the
foundation to be better, then Ithink we'll be in good shape.
I'm not discouraged.
I'm pretty positive. I'moptimistic. It's not gonna be
easy, but I think we're gonnaget there.
Henry St. Julien (45:41):
What do you think, Reverend Will?
Rev. Will Mebane (45:45):
Well, I've been saying to to folks that
I've seen this movie before. Youknow, I've lived through the
period of the civil rightsmovement in the sixties,
fifties, sixties, and during theJim Crow period in the South.
(46:08):
And and we were we took to thestreets, we marched and
protested. And some of us didother things to get the
attention of the authorities,the powers, and principalities.
And Adam mentioned the Stonewallriots and the what a catalyst
(46:35):
that was for moving to advancecivil rights, human rights for
the LGBTQ community.
And so there's just been so manytimes in the six decades I've
lived where I've seen periodswhen I thought this is gonna
(46:58):
make the difference, you know,after Rodney King was so
brutally beaten and that wascaptured on camera. It's one of
the first times I remember abrutality being captured on
camera, and it didn't change. Itdidn't change anything. And
then, you know, we've livedthrough so many other instances
(47:21):
of brutality and treating otherpeople with dismissing other
people and and all. So Iappreciate it, Bob, that your
expression of of hope because ofthe vocation that I chose or
(47:42):
that was chosen for me, I haveto hold on to hope as well.
And I don't have a lot of hopein our systems. My hope is not
in whoever is in the White Houseor whoever's on the Supreme
Court or whoever's in congress.I think all those things are
possible and all those thingscan be helpful and help move the
(48:06):
agenda forward. But as apersonal faith, you know, my
hope is in a higher power. Myhope is in God.
And and so I'm glad to see theyoung folks out there doing what
I was doing forty, fifty yearsago. I hope that if we're
blessed with grandchildren andour grandchildren won't have to
(48:27):
be out there forty, fifty yearsfrom now doing the same thing.
So that's where my that's whereI am right now.
Olivia Masih White (48:35):
Yeah. You know, I I'll I'll jump in. I I I
came to United States in 1962,and I lived in Dallas, Texas. I
was in Southern MethodistUniversity. I was going to
seminary.
And there was a seminary studentfrom Alabama, and we became very
(49:00):
good friends. And his parentsinvited me to come and visit him
in Alabama. Reverend Kellogg,never forget the name. So, of
course, back in 1962, I had justarrived in this country, my
first year. So there was anotherIndian girl, and she and I rode
Greyhound bus, and we went toAlabama and stopped, bus stop,
(49:26):
and there were sign, coloredonly.
And the cops stopped us becausewe were just headed to the
bathroom, and and at that time,I did not know anything about
America. Pointed us to thecolored bathroom and the water
fountain. So I had theexperience of drinking from the
colored bath faucet and going tousing the bathroom. Of course,
(49:49):
you have to go. You have to go.
You drink the water. Didn't seemany different. And I came back.
In many ways, I had theprivilege even though that I'm a
person of color, but I had theprivilege that the other blacks
didn't have. I was living with awhite professor's family.
I am in academic field. Later, Imarried a white man. And so I
(50:14):
did not go through all of thosethings. So in many way, I had
the privilege what I now manycall it as white privilege. I
had all those privilege.
And when you have thoseprivileges, you don't realize
others who don't have that. So Isee the hope now, Will, that lot
(50:37):
of allies are coming up, andthese are the white allies that
are now realizing that they havelived through privilege. They
had the privilege which is notbeing fair to the African
American. So I see the hope inthe movement is not just this
young generation that's comingup, but also the older
(50:59):
generation that have realizedtheir privileges and are now are
the allies in supporting thismovement.
Onjalé Scott Price (51:08):
That's an excellent point, Olivia. That
was that leads into somethingthat I was thinking when I think
about why this moment isdifferent. There's there's so
many aspects. There's there's asocial media aspect of I
personally have not watched thevideo of George Floyd's murder.
I couldn't bring myself to doit.
And I and I toiled with that,like, do I watch this and know
(51:29):
what happened to this man and beable to to feel that? Or do I do
I know in myself that I can'twatch that video and sleep at
night? And so I still have notwatched it. But I know that the
Ron Rodney King's beating wastaped. But I think in in this
(51:51):
day and age, you could save thatvideo for yourself and you can
play that for others and forfuture generations and and we
can share that.
So I while I don't think that weforgot about what happened to
Rodney King, the the country andother people did because it was
like, oh, yeah. That was thatbad thing that happened, like,
back then and I've never seen itand never will see it. But now
(52:12):
that we have so many videos andwe have such access to it, it's
it's going to be, I think, moredifficult for people to forget.
And unfortunately, these thingsare still happening. I've seen
more videos, you know, come outof police using, in particular
the same kneeling approach thatkilled George Floyd.
I've seen that in other videos.And again, it's not just about
(52:33):
police brutality. It's aboutsystemic racism, what we're
seeing in our academiccommunities. But I what I also
see is, as Olivia said, a lot ofallies. When I look at videos
from the sixties and seventiesand marches and my mom tells me
about what it was like myfamily's from Los Angeles.
So when she tells me what it waslike and I see pictures and it's
described to me, it's almostalways just black people. It's
(52:56):
almost always just us standingup for ourselves. And so now
when I look at a crowd, it'sit's a mix of people, older
people, younger people, youknow, people of of different
colors. And so I think that ishow the movement is is different
is that there are differentpeople involved. And and that to
me is encouraging.
(53:17):
It's cautious optimism, ofcourse, because there is a lot
of work to do and there are somepeople who are gonna be here for
the moment and not for themovement. But what I am seeing
now with so many differentallies, people saying, I don't
know if I'm if I've not been anally, but I want to be an ally.
How do I how do I become anally? I was trying to order some
(53:37):
books for myself from differentblack owned businesses and even
our local bookstore here and Icouldn't get them. They were
sold out because so many peopleare trying to educate
themselves.
So those are the kinds of thingsthat that keep me cautiously
optimistic about how this howthis movement is different than
than other ones.
Rev. Will Mebane (53:56):
Well, I thank you all for contributing. Bob,
did you want to make a commentthere?
Robert Antonucci (54:04):
No. No. This is good. I just this
conversation has been wonderful.
Rev. Will Mebane (54:07):
I am very grateful. One thing I would say
to in response to both Oliviaand Angie's comments, the
movement, this current movementneeds allies, but we also need
accomplices. And that's adistinction for me. Yes. We need
(54:29):
people cheering over from thesides and saying, I'm with you,
and I'm gonna send some money,or I'm gonna be supportive in
some other ways.
But we need people to beaccomplices and to stand with
black folks shoulder to shoulderand be willing to endure
whatever pain, suffering, lossmight come as a result of being
(54:51):
part of part of the this BlackLives Matter movement. And I
think you've given us an ideafor another for next month's
show. The subject of whiteprivilege has arisen and is on
the table, and so maybe we willhave the conversation next month
about white privilege. We'regrateful to the good folks at
(55:16):
FCTV, particularly Debra Rogersand Allen Russell for their
assistance in making thisplatform possible and helping to
produce this show. And there isa commitment from FCTV that
Angie and I will be back on aregular basis for more
(55:36):
conversations about what ishappening in the world, but
particularly with a focus onrace and racism.
So please make sure you continueto check the schedule for FCTV.
And who knows? We may catch youon the street one day asking you
to respond to to one of thequestions we raised. So my
(55:59):
thanks today on behalf of OnjaleScott Price, the cohost and
coproducer of this this show.Thanks to Bob Antonucci, to Adam
Shubash, and to Olivia MasihWhite for your participation,
your presence with us.
Until we meet next time for theconversation. I'm Will Mebane.
Hello. My name is Will Mebane. Welcome to the
conversation. This is a new showbrought to you by FCTV here in
Falmouth, Massachusetts on CapeCod. It's a new show that came
about because of incidentshappening in the aftermath of
(00:27):
the murder of George Floyd, ofthe rallies, protests, vigils
that have been held, but moreimportantly, perhaps the
conversations that have startedand that are ongoing.
And so with our good friendshere at FCTV, we have come
together to offer this venue ofwhich you are gonna be a part.
(00:52):
We're gonna ask you to join usin sharing your thoughts about a
myriad of issues and questionsthat have come up about race and
racism around the country,around the state and
Commonwealth of Massachusetts,and even here, or maybe
(01:12):
particularly here in our home,Falmouth. I'm delighted to have
as cohost of this new show, thisnew offering, Onjalé Scott
Price. Onjale is gonna introduceherself now and let let you know
a little bit more about what wehope to accomplish with the
(01:35):
show.
Onjalé Scott Price (01:36):
Thanks, Rev. I'm very excited about this
show. I think the best way forus to move forward as a
community, as a culture, as anation is to have difficult
conversations, to talk aboutthings that are uncomfortable,
to have significant discourseabout various topics. And I
(01:57):
think the topics around race andracism in light of recent events
is incredibly important. It'sthe elephant in the room.
It's the the thing that's alwaysthere, but doesn't always get
talked about. It influences usin ways that we don't even
realize. And I think it'simportant for us to have these
conversations so we can makeFalmouth and our nation and the
(02:19):
world a better place for all ofus to live and enjoy. So I'm
really looking forward to havingsome conversations with you,
Rev, and with our guests, andwith the community.
Rev. Will Mebane (02:32):
Thanks, Onjalé. So neither Onjalé nor I
profess to have the answers. Infact, we are quick to admit that
we don't have the answers. We'vegot lots of questions, though.
And so we're gonna pose somequestions to you, members of
Robert Antonucci (02:47):
the
Rev. Will Mebane (02:48):
community, and you'll be hearing some answers
to the questions we have forthis first show. And who knows,
in future shows, you might havea chance to be on camera as well
and answer one of the questionsthat we're gonna pose. So
without further ado, why don'twe go now to the first question
(03:09):
that we've asked some peoplehere in Falmouth to address?
Henry St. Julien (03:13):
What does Black Lives Matter mean to you?
Diane Jemmott (03:18):
Black Lives Matter means to me different
things. It mostly means to methat there's a validation that
my life is important as a blackwoman in this country or in this
world, actually. At the sametime, it is very disheartening
(03:38):
that in 2020, we have toproclaim that our lives matter.
Well, to
Susan O'Brien (03:44):
me, Black Lives Matter makes me think of the
four hundred years of oppressionthat folks in this country have
experienced, continueddiscriminatory behaviors. It
also helps me to remember thatchange will only happen for
humanity, when we see people asparts of humanity rather than
defining them by race.
Henry St. Julien (04:04):
It's it's for me, it's it's trying to get
people not to be defensive. Youknow, when we talk about Black
History Month and people say,hey, why is there a white
history? Well, there's aproblem. There is a problem. And
so we focus on black history.
We focus on, gender issue. Wefocus on different things when
(04:26):
there's a problem. And so rightnow, there's always been this
problem, but we're focused on itand we're like saying, let's do
something. Let's not just cryout, but let's take positive
steps.
Diane Jemmott (04:38):
It makes me feel good when I ride around and I
see signs. It makes me feel likepeople are paying attention and
they care, but it also makes mesad that we have to put out
signs. My belief is we're allhuman beings. We come into this
(04:59):
world equal. We have createdinequality, and it's time that
it gets fixed.
Henry St. Julien (05:06):
Our attention right now is on Black Lives
Matter. I think it's a humanright issue. I don't think it's
politics, and that's what theproblem is right now is we're
all divided, but it's a humanright issue. It doesn't matter
whether you're right or left,there's suffering going on, and
we should all be having ourminds set on Black Lives Matter.
(05:28):
So that's that's me.
I I I really feel that that'sit's a human condition. It's a
human issue, and we should alljump in and say, yes. I agree
with that.
Rev. Will Mebane (05:41):
Welcome back. Wow. And those were some
powerful responses we receivedfrom those who participated in
our sort of on the street, butmore like in the park interviews
there. Lots for us to considerand to discuss, and Anji and I
(06:03):
are privileged, delighted to bejoined by three individuals who
are who have joined theconversation and are gonna help
us unpack some of what you havejust heard. I first want to
introduce and welcome BobAntonucci, well known Falmouth
resident, superintendent ofschools, formerly here in
(06:25):
Falmouth, MassachusettsEducation Commissioner, and now
president emeritus of FitchburgCollege.
And we thank you for for beingwith us today. Adam Shubash is
also with us and grateful toAnji for making the connection
(06:47):
with Adam to get him to be partof the conversation today. And
we will be hearing a lot fromhim, and he has a very
interesting background as all ofall of our guests do. And there
is a common thread between Adam,is a scientist in Witchhole, and
(07:09):
the next person I'm gonnaintroduce, is Olivia Massey
White and with Indian rootsherself. So Adam and she share
that in common.
And I'll say a little bit moreabout each of you as we get into
the conversation. So why don'twe begin with asking you,
(07:30):
Olivia, to give us your reactionto what you just saw and to give
us what what do you think ofwhen you hear the phrase black
lives matter?
Olivia Masih White (07:47):
You know, it's interesting having come
from India some fifty plus yearsago. So I have seen lots of
racial discrimination from thesixties till now. So having seen
this sign here and knowing thatwe will be taking part in
conversation, I had time tothink about what do I think
(08:10):
about what lives matter. One ofthe thing that my first thing
that comes to my mind and notonly that when I see the sign, I
have put signs in my own yard.So first I see the sign is I
acknowledge that black livesreally do matter.
(08:32):
There's something to be said byputting the sign. They haven't
been treated equally. They havenot been given the kind of
education or respect orprivileges like everybody else
did. So I put that sign up justto acknowledge that they have
(08:54):
not been treated. And then I putthe sign up because I want to
take some responsibility,Responsibility that maybe
somehow directly or indirectly,have not done enough so the
black lives could matter.
And last, I will say my thirdreason is that if I acknowledge
(09:17):
it, if I take responsibility,then it's time for me personally
to take some action take someaction so justice could be done
for all individuals who areblacks, who have not been given
the privileges that others had.
Rev. Will Mebane (09:37):
Well, we know that some signs, once they've
been put up, have been takendown by vandals. And I'm gonna
give Anja a chance to talk withAdam a little bit about that
because I think she's familiarwith an experience he may have
had with that himself. But letme go to Bob first, and and
(10:01):
first of all, I apologize. Ireferred to it as Fitchburg
College. It showed you how old Iam.
Fitchburg State University.Grateful again for your presence
with us today. So what comes tomind for you when you hear that
phrase? When you hear whensomeone chanting, shouting,
(10:21):
black lives matter. So what doesthat mean?
Robert Antonucci (10:25):
First of all, I graduated from Pittsburgh
State College when I was acollege, so I accept your
introduction. That was fine.What it means to me is a call to
action. That phrase where I seeit on signs, when I read about
it in the newspaper, when I hearus talking about it today, it
says to me, it's a call toaction. We need to do something.
(10:45):
You can say that we've done itin the past twenty, thirty,
forty, fifty, hundred years. Idon't think we've done as much
as we should have done. Andwe're at a critical junction now
in this country and in thisworld. As we heard in the
videos, you know, we're talkingabout human beings. Human being,
whether they're white, black,gay, transgender, whatever, is a
human being.
(11:05):
And so when we see that sign, wehave to respect that. There has
to be a respectful attitudetoward people today. And I think
that's what that sign brings tome when I see it. I'm glad we're
seeing so many of it. I don'tthink it's sign that has
anything derogatory about it,and and if anything, it has a
positive ring to it.
(11:27):
And so hopefully, as we seethose signs, as we get out of
this pandemic, we can begin totake more active action. I think
now we're talking a lot aboutit. We'll continue to talk about
that. This conversation is aperfect example. But at some
point, we're going to have totake some aggressive steps.
It's more than about the police.It's more than about government.
(11:47):
It's about all of us. All of ushave a critical role to play. We
have to step up to the plate.
I hate to use the baseballanalogy. We have to hit that
ball, and we have to make surewe hit some home runs.
Rev. Will Mebane (12:01):
Anji, let me now I'm hand off to you and have
you engage Adam in thisconversation.
Onjalé Scott Price (12:08):
Yeah. So I've been recently getting to
know Adam, and one of our firstconversations was actually about
his Black Lives Matter signsthat were stolen from his yard.
And I know he lives over thereoff 28 right now, and I thought
to myself, how how much do youreally want to take a sign that
you are willing to stop or pullover on such a busy road to take
(12:31):
the sign out of someone's yard?So not only are you putting
yourself in danger with withwhere the house actually is
located. I I drove by itrecently.
And to go on to someone'sproperty and take a sign. And so
that made me really think, okay,when I think of Black Lives
Matter, I think of like like Robsaid Rob said, just not just
(12:52):
about the police or about themilitary, about our government.
It's it's about people. And sowe need to respect that people's
lives have not mattered in thepast and now. And that's what
we're promoting is that blacklives do matter.
And so when someone wants totake that sign, they want to
remove that, what are they whatare they trying to say? Are they
(13:13):
trying to say that black livesdon't matter? Are they trying to
say that they don't want blacklives to be equal? And so I know
we can't necessarily speak towhat that may what people may be
meaning when they take thosesigns. But I wanted to talk to
you, Adam, a little bit abouthow it how it made you feel to
have your signs continuallystolen.
And you've told me about thethings that you've done to try
(13:34):
to deter people from stealingthem. I hope you can share some
of those things. But just what'sit been like to to have those
stolen and and knowing thatsomeone is is taking them from
you on purpose?
Adam Subhas (13:46):
Yeah. Thanks, Anji. And thanks for including me in
this conversation. It's reallyI'm I'm really happy to be here.
Yeah.
It's it's been an interesting,process. You know, I I I feel
like I, first put up a signright after, hearing about
(14:10):
George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.And I I feel like I felt very
similarly to, to you, Bob, andand you, Olivia, that, you know,
it's a statement. It's somethingthat that, is is, projected out
into the community and kind ofaffirms that black lives matter
because they do matter. And likeyou said, Olivia, it's also, you
(14:35):
know, a reminder to me everytime I come home that I see it,
and it's a reminder of, youknow, this what am I gonna do
personally to to to make surethat that black lives matter?
And so I I put out this sign,and, initially, it lasted about
(14:55):
a week before it got taken. Letme let me rephrase that. It
lasted about a week beforesomeone took it and put some
very racist kind of flyers in mymailbox along alongside them
taking the sign. And, you know,I I then had kind of went
(15:23):
through the channels ofreporting it to the police.
Turns out putting something insomeone's mailbox is a federal
crime.
And so they you know, they'rereal kind of repercussions for
someone taking this action. It'sillegal. But, also, just from a
from a, you know, standpoint ofme taking action, I said I
(15:46):
couldn't let this stand. So Iwent out and got two more signs
and put them out. Those lastedall of, I think, twenty four
hours, before they got takenagain.
The next thing I did was putsome up in the tree so that they
couldn't be taken from the road.And then the last thing I did
(16:08):
was put I actually had a friendof mine weld a a metal sign that
I put into the ground with apost hole digger and put
concrete footings on it. And itturns out, Anji, I I don't know
if I told you this, but thatsign got stolen just a couple of
(16:29):
days ago. So they managed to sitthere, and I don't I don't know
how long it took them to digthis thing out. But they dug it
out, and it's gone now.
So, this is real effort thatthat people are putting into us,
you know, silencing this these,these voices that I think all of
(16:49):
us are are we wanna lend ourvoice in support of black lives
in in the ways that we think wecan. This has been framed by the
media or some some people in themedia as a free speech issue,
and I just think that's that'snot the right way to think about
this. I mean, this is a it's ahuman rights issue. It's it's a
(17:12):
personal issue, an issue of of,you know, humanity and and
respecting everyone in theirlives, and not just their lives,
but their voices and theircontributions to society and
their minds and their thoughtsand all that that goes with a
life. And the fact of thatmatter is that these black lives
(17:39):
and and everything that comesalong with that has been have
been repressed and not listenedto and sidelined for so long.
And, you know, taking this signand silencing this voice is
just, I think, one more exampleof how this this happens in all
sorts of ways in our community.And it's just it's really
(18:03):
frustrating to see that happen,but I won't stop putting signs
out. So I gotta think of thenext thing to do to to prevent
this sign from getting stolen.
Onjalé Scott Price (18:12):
I think I'll
Rev. Will Mebane (18:13):
give you an go ahead, Anji.
Onjalé Scott Price (18:16):
I'm sorry. I just wanted to say I I think it
like you said, it goes to showhow voices have been stifled in
the past. Is that if you justput a sign out and people don't
wanna see the signs, they takethe signs. I I think that really
speaks to this movement and howstrong this movement is that
people are trying to silence itin that way is that they don't
even want to see it because theyknow that it means something and
(18:38):
they probably don't necessarilyagree with it. So it is
frustrating to know that you putconcrete footing down and it's
it's still being taken.
That means that people whoeverthese people are, they are
working very hard to silence,which I think is a reflection of
what we've been going through aspeople working hard to keep
(19:00):
black people silenced. And andso it's a interesting dichotomy
there.
Rev. Will Mebane (19:08):
I was gonna give you one suggestion, Adam. I
I think I think you've you'veyou've made heroic efforts to
make sure your your signremained in place there. We
actually put ours on the roof.We we live we live on Main
Street in Falmouth, a very busyarea, heavily trafficked area
(19:30):
trafficked area. And I knewthere was a risk of the sign
being stolen if we simply put itin the front yard.
And so we had someone come andbolt it to the roof line. I'm
still waiting, you know, forsomeone to make an effort to to
(19:52):
access it or vandalize it insome way, but that may be your
may maybe the next option foryou to put it upon the roof. But
that I wanna go back, though.Wanna challenge each of you to
go a little deeper on this. Eachof you has probably heard people
(20:12):
say when you wear a button thatsays black lives matter or you
carry a sign, you know, theretort from folks usually is,
don't all lives matter?
So how do you how do you respondto that? What do you say to
someone who takes that posture?Whichever one of you would like
(20:33):
to speak. Go ahead, Olivia.
Olivia Masih White (20:35):
You know, it's interesting. As Adam was
talking, I remember that lastyear, I put up a sign when some
shooting had taken place. And Iwas con confronted by somebody
in my church and says, don't alllives matter? Why did you put
(21:01):
that sign? It just so happenedthat that person not only
belongs to my church, but healso lives in my neighborhood.
So I said, of course, all livesmatter. But the sign I put there
is because it's the blacks thathave been marginalized. They are
the one that the police havebeen going after. They are the
one that lives is endangered.They are the one they haven't
(21:24):
been treated, and that's why Ihad put my sign.
Well shortly after that the signdisappeared. I'm not sure as to
who took it. So mydaughter-in-law happened to have
another sign and so I put thesecond sign. It stayed there and
I still have a sign and it hadnot been taken. But I the more I
(21:47):
think about it that it is havingthat sign now, it gives people
when they see it.
And, you know, we're talkingabout living here in Falmouth.
And I have seen the signs quiteoften in the houses that are not
(22:10):
owned by African Americans, butthese are people that is the
white community. So it gives mehope that the community is
getting behind in recognizingthis is not fair, that the
blacks' lives do matter, andthere is some action that needs
to be taken.
Rev. Will Mebane (22:32):
Yeah. Thank you. You know,
Robert Antonucci (22:34):
similar when people say that, you know, all
lives do matter. There's noquestion about that. But here,
we're talking about the issuesof equity and discrimination. If
everybody was equal in terms ofwhat we're addressing, we
wouldn't need that sign thatsaid black lives matter. But
black lives do matter becausethere has been discriminatory
(22:55):
practices.
There has not been equity amongthe races. And so though all
lives do matter, we're rising tothe top here about issues where
it's not working. So lives ofthe blacks and lives of certain
minority communities have to beaddressed. And I come from the
education world, both k to 12and and higher ed. And we
(23:17):
forever are talking aboutequity, in what we do, both in
terms of students we admit, interms of our curricula, but we
haven't gone far enough.
Times have changing. Times havechanged. And as I said earlier,
the call of action says we justwe have to do more than we're
doing now. And I think if wefocus on the human aspect, if we
focus on the issue of equity,and we focus on the issue of
(23:40):
discrimination among and betweenraces and genders, we'll make
some progress. It's gonna takesome long time.
It's gonna take some hard effortby a lot of people. The sign as
and the damage done to signs isone small issue. But if you look
across this country in varioussegments of this country, the
discrimination practices are fargreater than we see here. That
(24:03):
doesn't mean that we can't domore here in the community of
Falmouth than our surroundingcommunities, but we need to look
at it as the national priority.And I'm not sure the leadership
at times see it as a nationalpriority.
So it takes people like ushaving a conversation about it
and hopefully that will spreadand people will begin to take it
serious and make a difference.
Rev. Will Mebane (24:26):
Adam, you have a a thought about retort? Yeah.
Adam Subhas (24:34):
I guess, you know, that this the that retort, it it
it's it's interesting becauseall of these things are you
know, they're reactionary.Right? Their their reaction to
seeing this statement and andalmost you know, I feel like a
lot of this and and I'm I'mguilty of this. I think all of
(24:57):
us are that we get we getdefensive about our own notions
of what, you know, our values,what we what we feel. And and
something like this, it's so itruns so deep in our culture that
it's really hard for us to dealwith, I think, as as a society.
(25:17):
And so this this reaction of alllives matter, I think, is it's
it's the immediate, you know,defensive, like, well, fine,
but, you know, all lives matter.And you're saying, you know, of
course, all lives matter. Butthe fact of the matter is there
has been this discrepancy in inbetween black lives and white
(25:42):
lives for for centuries now. Andthis is a this statement, black
lives matter, is a recognition,I think, of that. And the fact
that it runs so deep, I feellike, makes it so much harder
for people to kind ofinternalize and and deal with
and and reconcile.
Rev. Will Mebane (26:00):
And
Adam Subhas (26:02):
that's that's just a hard thing to know what to do
with. But the, you know, theother thing is that it's it is a
reaction and a a defense to theBlack Lives Matter movement. And
I think that's an importantthing to to to recognize for us
too in terms of moving theconversation forward.
Rev. Will Mebane (26:27):
I wanna ask my cohost, Anji, what do you say
when people respond, well, don'tall lives matter? Why why draw
attention to black lives?
Onjalé Scott Price (26:41):
It's it's interesting. I I was thinking
about that this morning when Isaw what happened in Lebanon
with the the explosion inLebanon and people are, you
know, doing hashtag pray forLebanon and send help to
Lebanon. And I thought, in a wayis this similar to the Black
Lives Matter movement wherewe're saying in this moment
(27:01):
right now something is happeningin this country and they need
help and they need prayers. Arethere other countries who are
saying, well don't all countriesneed prayer? Don't all countries
need help?
And I realized this is not aapples to apples comparison. It
kind of made me think, is thiswhen people ask that, I'm
thinking, are you focused on thefact that this is a current
(27:26):
movement for what has beenhappening like we've said for
centuries? Or are you seeingthis as as a a momentary thing
that is going to be passing andit's just about right now and
what we're seeing on TV withwith police brutality? And if
you're only focusing it on thismoment right now and not
realizing the history behindthis movement or what this
(27:48):
movement really stands for, thenthen you're missing the whole
point. And so by saying alllives matter, you're you're
telling me that you're missingthe whole point.
You're not understanding thatwe're seeing this movement right
now. Yes. But this movement hasbeen coming and it it needs to
keep going. I'm not sure if if Iarticulated that in the best
(28:09):
way.
Robert Antonucci (28:10):
You did.
Onjalé Scott Price (28:12):
Okay. Thanks. So when people say it to
me, I do say, well, of course,all lives matter, but we're just
focusing on the ones that havenot always mattered. Can we at
least agree that at some point,whether you wanna believe that
was in recent years or hundredsof years ago, that black lives
(28:32):
did not matter. At one point, Iwould would have been considered
three fifths of a person.
I think we can agree that thatmeant that my life as a whole
did not matter. So could you atleast understand why we feel the
need to say that? Andconversation doesn't always go
well, but it starts somewhat ofa conversation.
Rev. Will Mebane (28:52):
Well, thank you each for sharing that
because I'm I'm still grappling,frankly, for how to respond to
that. And maybe I'm I'mgrappling because it touches me
in a very deep and an emotionalway when someone asks that. And
I I guess I'm just notunderstanding why it's so hard
(29:14):
for them to understand why suchstatement such a statement is
necessary. So I've been tryingout a a few responses. I'm
curious as to what you mightthink about them.
So I had a young girl ask mejust a few weeks ago. Her mom
came to me and said, I'm tryingto teach her, you know, why
(29:36):
these people why people aresaying black lives matter, why
we see these signs and all. Andshe said, can you help her? So
one of the things you do as apriest and people come to you
and look for guidance andcounsel and what have you. And
so I I spoke with the with thelittle girl, and I said, well,
think of it like this.
(29:57):
You live in a house, and everyhouse in your community, every
house in your street matters.Right? It's important to
everybody. And but if your housecatches on fire, your house
needs to matter more than theallergist at that moment because
(30:20):
we need to put out the fire. Thefire has to be put out.
And she seemed to grasp that andand and and agree with that. I
was talking with an older persona few weeks ago and was trying
to have the same conversationwith them. So and I said, well,
(30:41):
let's think about it like thinkabout it like this. So when we
if you and I show up in theemergency room at Falmouth
Hospital at the same time, andI've got a sprained ankle from
jogging around the block, andyou come in and you've just been
(31:01):
in a serious car accident, andyou've got broken bones, and you
are bleeding, which patient isgoing to get the attention
patient should get attention atthat time? I would think you
would be incredulous if theyattended to my sprained ankle
(31:26):
while they left you bleeding onthe emergency room floor.
So I don't know if that washelpful or not, but I'm just
looking for ways, real, lightways, so people are trying to
understand why at thisparticular moment, it's so
important to embrace the factthat black lives matter. Anyone
(31:47):
have a a comment or response to,you know Yeah. I I
Robert Antonucci (31:51):
Oh, go ahead.
Rev. Will Mebane (31:52):
And I'll come to you, Bob. Yes.
Robert Antonucci (31:53):
Yeah. No. Go ahead.
Olivia Masih White (31:57):
I I feel like it it's interesting since
when I came from India, itreally shocked to me how African
Americans were treated. Theywere not treated like they were
equal human. I went on tocollege and I studied and my
(32:19):
field is genetics and I taughtat a university for twenty
years. And one of the thing thatI always big lecture in every
class, I will talk about thatevery individual, every human
being exactly alike, geneticallyspeaking. We have now
(32:44):
identified.
We have completed the wholehuman genome. We have about
200,000 to 25,000 genes in ourbody. So let's assume we have
20,000. 90 nine point ninepercent of genes are exactly
alike in every human being.99.9.
(33:10):
Almost hundred just point 1%different. So if you're looking
at 20,000 genes you have out of28,000 only 20 genes are
different than all the other. Soif anybody needs to go to the
hospital for blood transfusionor organ transplant, you don't
(33:32):
look at the skin color, youdon't look at the color of the
eyes, you don't look at thetexture of their hair. Those 20
genes that make you differentfrom other human beings are
simply the ones that give youeither color of the eyes or your
(33:52):
skin color. That domain,genetically speaking, we are
exactly all alive.
So the question shouldn't evencome to be asked whether all
lives matter or not because weare we are all human beings, and
it has been way too long wherepeople have not recognized the
(34:14):
fact that everyone, every singlehuman being is exactly alike. We
are all made similarly. So sothat's that's my genetics
lesson.
Rev. Will Mebane (34:27):
Thank you, professor. Thank you. Bob, let's
hear hear hear Yeah.
Robert Antonucci (34:33):
No. I was just responding. And that was that
was great, by the way. Wasresponding to your comments
about, you know, the examplesthat you used. I thought they
were perfect.
What did those two examples do?It heightened the awareness of
the issue. And I think that'sall we can do at this point. We
heighten it, and we need tobegin to show respect for what
this movement is all about. Butthe more difficult part will be
(34:55):
the action that we need to takemoving on.
But if we don't heighten theawareness, and and it's good to
feel uncomfortable about it.When people question us, so we
question them. You know? I don'tmind being uncomfortable. I
don't mind making other peopleuncomfortable.
That doesn't mean it's in in anantagonistic way. It's a matter
of an issue that we need todiscuss and be open about it. I
(35:17):
think on a college campus, wesee that openness. Whole
differences of opinion exist. Ifwe could take that and just make
that part of society wherepeople don't feel threatened
because we talk about it.
And so this is not a threateningmovement. It's more a movement
to respect humans as you justheard and to ensure that
everyone is treated equally.
Rev. Will Mebane (35:41):
So we are living in a different time. Some
people are saying that this is atipping point, that this is
unlike any other period in thisyoung nation's history in terms
of people coalescing around theneed to demand justice for all
(36:06):
of its residents. And so weasked some people in the
community to respond to aquestion. So how is this moment
different from other momentswhen there were demands for
(36:27):
civil and human rights in thiscountry. So join me.
We're gonna take a listen towhat some of those responses
were, and we'll come back to thestudio and ask you to weigh in
as well.
Henry St. Julien (36:44):
How is this moment different?
Diane Jemmott (36:47):
This moment in time is different, I think,
first and foremost, because it'sglobal. The timing of it during
a global pandemic hascontributed to the press
coverage and media coverage andsocial media and the attention
of people from all over theworld. This is different because
(37:10):
people are engaging from allwalks of life. We have come to a
realization that this life justisn't equal and on a lot of
different fronts. Therefore, weneed to band together to make
this a better place to live.
And I
Susan O'Brien (37:28):
think that with the murder of George Floyd, that
has been used as a catalystthrough social media, to not
only have the systems thatcontinue to work against many in
this country also catapulted itinto a an international
spotlight. So I think thatthat's really different than
what we've had in the past,least in this country.
Henry St. Julien (37:50):
So right now, the difference is, there is a
heightened, acknowledgment. Wesee Travon Martin, and then
we're seeing, George Floyd, andthen we actually saw it on TV
and we're like, there issomething wrong. And I think the
whole world can see it, thatthere was something wrong. You
(38:11):
saw human suffering right there.You couldn't deny it.
Diane Jemmott (38:15):
So people are asking questions. People are
getting involved. They'reexpressing an interest in trying
to understand how we've allowedthis country to grow into a
place where there is noequality. If we have equality,
because of the fight that hasgone on for years and years and
(38:39):
years, if we develop a systemthat has equality, we could live
in a much more harmonious place.People need to embrace
difference.
They need to understand we don'tall have to be alike. We're
never gonna be alike. We don'tall have to think alike, but we
do need to be respectful. And weneed to understand that you are
(38:59):
not privileged because of thecolor of your skin or how much
money you make or what yourparents' last name is. It's
because you're a human being,and we're all human beings in
this together.
Onjalé Scott Price (39:16):
So we we heard people say a little bit
about why they feel like thismoment is different. There's the
aspects of social media, thisbeing more of a global issue
now, getting more awareness inin not just our community here
in The United States, butworldwide. We've seen that there
have been Black Lives Matterprotests on pretty much every
(39:38):
continent. I don't maybe notAntarctica, but all all the
inhabited ones. You know, so wewe're seeing a lot of support.
And I have my own opinions onwhy there's so much support, but
I'd like to hear from from ourguests. What do you all think?
Why do you think that thismovement is so different, and
why is it so different thistime? Start with Olivia.
Olivia Masih White (40:01):
I I think that you framed it what you said
is really true that there issocial media now, you know,
information from one minute tothe other. You can mobilize
everybody within seconds, andeverybody can put a sign up. So
it's the social media. Also, Iwill say that this pandemic have
(40:30):
something to do with it. We areunder so much stress, And I will
also say that there is somethingto be said about this
generation, not the people fromthe other generation and not
your generation will either.
But this generation, theactivism, I think that is really
(40:53):
very contagious. I think theseyoung people had some benefit
that the blacks did not havehundred years ago, fifty years
ago. They are giving opportunityfor education. There have been
role models for them like MartinLuther King and John Lewis. But
(41:13):
I think that this is theactivism is the young generation
that I think is really flamingthe fire of activism.
Onjalé Scott Price (41:25):
Were you talking about my generation?
Because I I would I'm hopingthat you're including me.
Olivia Masih White (41:29):
Yes. I I'm talking about this generation of
the twenties and thirties andforties, you know, younger than
me. My
Robert Antonucci (41:37):
And younger than me.
Onjalé Scott Price (41:38):
Alright. That's us, Adam. That's us.
Adam Subhas (41:40):
Alright. Adam
Onjalé Scott Price (41:43):
or Bhagavad, do you guys wanna comment on
that?
Adam Subhas (41:45):
Yeah. I can I'll jump in here. Well, thanks for
your your vote of encouragementand support, Olivia, for our
generation. And, you know, thereare people younger than us too.
I mean, I'm I'm considered amillennial, and we're already
old compared to Gen z or I thinkit's Gen z is the the the ones
(42:09):
who love it.
Right? So That
Onjalé Scott Price (42:10):
that sounds right.
Adam Subhas (42:11):
And and, you know, they're doing they're doing
amazing things too. I mean, justthink about the the way that
high schoolers were able tomobilize after all the school
shootings that happened
Olivia Masih White (42:26):
Mhmm.
Adam Subhas (42:26):
Last year. I mean, it's just it's just incredible
to watch. And but I think you'reright that we've we've built on
so much activism that hasalready happened in this country
and all over the world. I mean,I think the the example that I
come back to, you know, I feellike our generation has made
some some progress in racialissues, also LGBTQ issues, but
(42:49):
we can't deny the influencethat, you know, Stonewall and
the Stonewall riots had on onreally framing the issues for us
and setting things out in inthis really stark way. And and
this time we're living in rightnow, I feel like is this is
another moment where everythingis kinda getting framed in this
(43:10):
way and just lays it out.
Right? And maybe it's that we'reall stuck at home and so this is
this is all we see. There's nosports. There's no you know,
live TV isn't really a thinganymore. And so this is this is
what we're seeing.
Right? And we're we're stuckwith it. And I think at a more
philosophical level, at leastfor me, it's you know, I
(43:33):
particularly with Black LivesMatter and and civil rights in
general in this country, youknow, we we're feeling stuck and
we're feeling like we're notmoving, we're not progressing.
And I see that, you know, now Ithink it's it's become even more
clear that that is reflected ina lot of the you know, some of
(43:54):
the progress with the BlackLives Matter movement that it
you know, there is there areconstant barriers to progress in
terms of systemic racism and allthese things. And I think it
maybe has taken a globalpandemic to really frame those
issues in a way where all of asudden people like me and, you
(44:19):
know, other white people andpeople who are not black are
actually starting to see thatand really internalize it for
for for the the systemic issuesthat are that are in front of in
in facing the black community inThe US.
Robert Antonucci (44:36):
Let me just jump in, I think, and just pick
up on that because I think bothcomments both people making
positive comments. This is a a aon a side, I think everyone
being at home during thispandemic and having to talk to
each other and not going to workor working from home, and I'm
talking singles, married,anybody, we spent a lot of time
(45:00):
together. And we're usingtelevision as we're doing right
now and social media much morethan we ever have. So I think
the issue came to light a lotquicker than if we had been in
normal times when we're allrushing to catch a subway or
rushing to work or rushingaround shopping. The whole
country slowed down.
The whole world slowed down. Andmaybe that's a lesson to all of
(45:22):
us. We were able to slow downand finally focus on an issue
that's important to us. And ifwe use this issue as the
foundation to be better, then Ithink we'll be in good shape.
I'm not discouraged.
I'm pretty positive. I'moptimistic. It's not gonna be
easy, but I think we're gonnaget there.
Henry St. Julien (45:41):
What do you think, Reverend Will?
Rev. Will Mebane (45:45):
Well, I've been saying to to folks that
I've seen this movie before. Youknow, I've lived through the
period of the civil rightsmovement in the sixties,
fifties, sixties, and during theJim Crow period in the South.
(46:08):
And and we were we took to thestreets, we marched and
protested. And some of us didother things to get the
attention of the authorities,the powers, and principalities.
And Adam mentioned the Stonewallriots and the what a catalyst
(46:35):
that was for moving to advancecivil rights, human rights for
the LGBTQ community.
And so there's just been so manytimes in the six decades I've
lived where I've seen periodswhen I thought this is gonna
(46:58):
make the difference, you know,after Rodney King was so
brutally beaten and that wascaptured on camera. It's one of
the first times I remember abrutality being captured on
camera, and it didn't change. Itdidn't change anything. And
then, you know, we've livedthrough so many other instances
(47:21):
of brutality and treating otherpeople with dismissing other
people and and all. So Iappreciate it, Bob, that your
expression of of hope because ofthe vocation that I chose or
(47:42):
that was chosen for me, I haveto hold on to hope as well.
And I don't have a lot of hopein our systems. My hope is not
in whoever is in the White Houseor whoever's on the Supreme
Court or whoever's in congress.I think all those things are
possible and all those thingscan be helpful and help move the
(48:06):
agenda forward. But as apersonal faith, you know, my
hope is in a higher power. Myhope is in God.
And and so I'm glad to see theyoung folks out there doing what
I was doing forty, fifty yearsago. I hope that if we're
blessed with grandchildren andour grandchildren won't have to
(48:27):
be out there forty, fifty yearsfrom now doing the same thing.
So that's where my that's whereI am right now.
Olivia Masih White (48:35):
Yeah. You know, I I'll I'll jump in. I I I
came to United States in 1962,and I lived in Dallas, Texas. I
was in Southern MethodistUniversity. I was going to
seminary.
And there was a seminary studentfrom Alabama, and we became very
(49:00):
good friends. And his parentsinvited me to come and visit him
in Alabama. Reverend Kellogg,never forget the name. So, of
course, back in 1962, I had justarrived in this country, my
first year. So there was anotherIndian girl, and she and I rode
Greyhound bus, and we went toAlabama and stopped, bus stop,
(49:26):
and there were sign, coloredonly.
And the cops stopped us becausewe were just headed to the
bathroom, and and at that time,I did not know anything about
America. Pointed us to thecolored bathroom and the water
fountain. So I had theexperience of drinking from the
colored bath faucet and going tousing the bathroom. Of course,
(49:49):
you have to go. You have to go.
You drink the water. Didn't seemany different. And I came back.
In many ways, I had theprivilege even though that I'm a
person of color, but I had theprivilege that the other blacks
didn't have. I was living with awhite professor's family.
I am in academic field. Later, Imarried a white man. And so I
(50:14):
did not go through all of thosethings. So in many way, I had
the privilege what I now manycall it as white privilege. I
had all those privilege.
And when you have thoseprivileges, you don't realize
others who don't have that. So Isee the hope now, Will, that lot
(50:37):
of allies are coming up, andthese are the white allies that
are now realizing that they havelived through privilege. They
had the privilege which is notbeing fair to the African
American. So I see the hope inthe movement is not just this
young generation that's comingup, but also the older
(50:59):
generation that have realizedtheir privileges and are now are
the allies in supporting thismovement.
Onjalé Scott Price (51:08):
That's an excellent point, Olivia. That
was that leads into somethingthat I was thinking when I think
about why this moment isdifferent. There's there's so
many aspects. There's there's asocial media aspect of I
personally have not watched thevideo of George Floyd's murder.
I couldn't bring myself to doit.
And I and I toiled with that,like, do I watch this and know
(51:29):
what happened to this man and beable to to feel that? Or do I do
I know in myself that I can'twatch that video and sleep at
night? And so I still have notwatched it. But I know that the
Ron Rodney King's beating wastaped. But I think in in this
(51:51):
day and age, you could save thatvideo for yourself and you can
play that for others and forfuture generations and and we
can share that.
So I while I don't think that weforgot about what happened to
Rodney King, the the country andother people did because it was
like, oh, yeah. That was thatbad thing that happened, like,
back then and I've never seen itand never will see it. But now
(52:12):
that we have so many videos andwe have such access to it, it's
it's going to be, I think, moredifficult for people to forget.
And unfortunately, these thingsare still happening. I've seen
more videos, you know, come outof police using, in particular
the same kneeling approach thatkilled George Floyd.
I've seen that in other videos.And again, it's not just about
(52:33):
police brutality. It's aboutsystemic racism, what we're
seeing in our academiccommunities. But I what I also
see is, as Olivia said, a lot ofallies. When I look at videos
from the sixties and seventiesand marches and my mom tells me
about what it was like myfamily's from Los Angeles.
So when she tells me what it waslike and I see pictures and it's
described to me, it's almostalways just black people. It's
(52:56):
almost always just us standingup for ourselves. And so now
when I look at a crowd, it'sit's a mix of people, older
people, younger people, youknow, people of of different
colors. And so I think that ishow the movement is is different
is that there are differentpeople involved. And and that to
me is encouraging.
(53:17):
It's cautious optimism, ofcourse, because there is a lot
of work to do and there are somepeople who are gonna be here for
the moment and not for themovement. But what I am seeing
now with so many differentallies, people saying, I don't
know if I'm if I've not been anally, but I want to be an ally.
How do I how do I become anally? I was trying to order some
(53:37):
books for myself from differentblack owned businesses and even
our local bookstore here and Icouldn't get them. They were
sold out because so many peopleare trying to educate
themselves.
So those are the kinds of thingsthat that keep me cautiously
optimistic about how this howthis movement is different than
than other ones.
Rev. Will Mebane (53:56):
Well, I thank you all for contributing. Bob,
did you want to make a commentthere?
Robert Antonucci (54:04):
No. No. This is good. I just this
conversation has been wonderful.
Rev. Will Mebane (54:07):
I am very grateful. One thing I would say
to in response to both Oliviaand Angie's comments, the
movement, this current movementneeds allies, but we also need
accomplices. And that's adistinction for me. Yes. We need
(54:29):
people cheering over from thesides and saying, I'm with you,
and I'm gonna send some money,or I'm gonna be supportive in
some other ways.
But we need people to beaccomplices and to stand with
black folks shoulder to shoulderand be willing to endure
whatever pain, suffering, lossmight come as a result of being
(54:51):
part of part of the this BlackLives Matter movement. And I
think you've given us an ideafor another for next month's
show. The subject of whiteprivilege has arisen and is on
the table, and so maybe we willhave the conversation next month
about white privilege. We'regrateful to the good folks at
(55:16):
FCTV, particularly Debra Rogersand Allen Russell for their
assistance in making thisplatform possible and helping to
produce this show. And there isa commitment from FCTV that
Angie and I will be back on aregular basis for more
(55:36):
conversations about what ishappening in the world, but
particularly with a focus onrace and racism.
So please make sure you continueto check the schedule for FCTV.
And who knows? We may catch youon the street one day asking you
to respond to to one of thequestions we raised. So my
(55:59):
thanks today on behalf of OnjaleScott Price, the cohost and
coproducer of this this show.Thanks to Bob Antonucci, to Adam
Shubash, and to Olivia MasihWhite for your participation,
your presence with us.
Until we meet next time for theconversation. I'm Will Mebane.
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