How Oscar Winner John Patrick Shanley Went From Nothing To Everything And Won His Life

Episode Transcript
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Robyn Cohen (00:40):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Daily
Joyride.
I am so excited for today'sconversation with the
magnificent, the incomparable,John Patrick Shanley.
He won the Academy Award for hisiconic and beloved film,
Moonstruck.
He won the Pulitzer Prize andthe Tony Award for his
incredible Broadway play,"Doubt," and he's really

(01:02):
reshaped our understanding ofwhat storytelling even is, and
what it can be.
John's mastery in depicting thehuman soul, in dissecting the
human spirit, and our hopes anddreams and passions and ethical
dilemmas It really invites us toponder the deeper questions of
"What is life?

(01:24):
What is art?
And what is happening in thishuman existence?
And how do we get at thealiveness of life while we're
here?" So as we unpack John'screative approach, his
philosophy on life and art andcraft, let's draw inspiration
for our own creative journeys.
Toward that end, I'm so excitedto invite you to our next round

(01:46):
of acting classes.
They're going to begin January28th, and it's going to be a six
week workshop, both online andin person, whatever works for
you, where we are going toexplore and explode what you can
do as actors, as artists and ashuman beings in the hands of the
great writers like John PatrickShanley.

(02:07):
So don't let another year passwithout pushing the creative
boundaries of your magnificentpotential.
Just email me atRobyn@cohenactingstudio.com or
find out more about the classesat www.
cohenactingstudio.com.
And let's transform all of ourartistic visions into absolute

(02:30):
reality.
Join me in making 2025 the mostdynamic, beautiful, enthralling,
and explosive adventure rideever.
So here we go into thisconversation and let's just soak
in the juice of all of thisinspiration with John Patrick
Shanley.

(02:50):
Here we go.
Hello, hello, everyone.
and welcome back to the DailyJoyride Podcast.
Today, we have the absoluteprivilege and honor and joy of
getting to sit down with anamazing friend and my creative

(03:12):
north star, John PatrickShanley, one of the most
celebrated writers of our time,and of all time, really.
John is an award winningplaywright.
He's an acclaimed screenwriterand director whose works have
profoundly impacted both stageand screen.

(03:34):
His journey began in the Bronx,where his upbringing in a
working class Irish Americanfamily, his Catholic school
experiences, and his time in theMarine Corps seems to have
planted some seeds for the deepand complex themes he explores
in his work.
With a career spanning decadesand decades, And decades, John

(03:58):
has left an indelible mark inboth the theater world and with
his movies, and in the world ofarts and crafts, as I like to
call it, in general.
Over a storied career, he haswritten over 25 plays and dozens
and dozens of one acts.
Some of his plays include thePulitzer Prize winning and Tony

(04:20):
Award winning play, Doubt, AParable.
which grapples with questions offaith and morality.
Danny and the Deep Blue Sea,Brooklyn Laundry, all three of
which, all three of which wereon Broadway in the 2024 New York
theater season.

(04:41):
Outside Mullinger, Which was onBroadway in 2014.
A wildly touching story of loveset in rural Ireland.
Women of Manhattan.
Savage and limbo.
Beggars in the house of plenty.
It's amazing because I'veactually had the absolute thrill

(05:02):
of and joy of working on many ofthese plays, performing in them,
or scene study classes, as haveactors and artists all over the
world.
And I'm so grateful that I cansay that.
And generally speaking, the listof your contributions to the
theater, John alone, that wouldfill this entire podcast

(05:22):
episode.
That said, John's contributionsin film are equally
extraordinary, with hisscreenplay for the indelible
Moonstruck earning him anAcademy Award for Best Original
Screenplay and his directorialdebut, Joe vs.
the Volcano, becoming a cultclassic.
Other of John's films includeCongo, Five Corners.

(05:43):
which I just saw, oh mygoodness, and Wild Mountain
Time, one of the most magicallydelicious films.
ever made.
And, um, so, well, John, here'swhat AI, who passed the bar
exam, had to say about you.
Okay.
This is from the robots, John.
Shanley's, uh, Shanley's workcontinues to resonate.

(06:09):
Because of its fearlessexploration of life's
uncertainties and his ability tocapture the universal truths
within deeply personal stories.
Shanley is a master ofambiguity, inviting audiences to
wrestle to the ground, I mightadd, with life's uncertainties

(06:29):
and find meaning in the grayareas of existence.
I think a lot of that lines up.
Uh, today, today we're gonnaexplore John's epic career, his
creative inspirations, as wellas his unending curiosity about
human nature, and how it'sinformed his dynamic artistry,

(06:54):
and the ways his art haschallenged and ignited audiences
worldwide.
So, Folks, get ready for aconversation with one of the
most thought provoking andfearless voices in contemporary
storytelling, Mr.
John Patrick Shanley.
Welcome to The Daily Joyride.

(07:16):
Thanks.
Nice to be here.
It's wonderful to have you here.
I'll just, if we can go behindthe scenes for a minute, we both
just did a wardrobe changebecause we had a little Monday
afternoon dance party before westarted.
So for those who are listening,um, he, he, we are now, um, in

(07:40):
totally different outfits thanwhen we began chatting this
morning and it's, and it'salready wonderful.
So.
Okay, John.
there's so much.
And today, it's just such adelight to be with you.
And I'm also here on behalf ofmany of the people that I work
with, my students, who alsohave, you know, questions about

(08:02):
you, your life.
The journey, your creativetrajectory, your personal path.
And, um, so I'm sort of speakingon behalf of them as well.
Uh, my first question to youwould be, what do you want to be
when you grow up?

(08:22):
No, that's not the question.
but it does have to do with thequestion, which is that.
and in asking this, we might goback a little bit.
We might, sort of walk ourselvesback on the timeline.
I am so curious if, the, themagnitude of your work, the
breadth, the depth, the glory ofit.

(08:43):
Were you growing up and like,was, is this a nature nurture
situation?
Like, were you exposed to Greatworks of art.
Was that something that was likegenetic?
Was it in your DNA to be oncreative fire?
Was that something that was likeingrained in your cells?

(09:04):
Or was it the nurture aspect?
Was this something that yourbrothers and sisters, your
parents, your family members,brought into your world that
molded and shaped such acreative life?
Creative career.
Was this something that you werekind of born with?
Or, yeah, again, the natureversus nurture or combination of

(09:24):
both?

John PS (09:25):
Well, um, as you might have mentioned, I'm from the
Bronx.
I grew up in a working classfamily.
My father was a meatpacker.
My mother was a telephoneoperator.
And, and mother, she was motherof five children.
I was the youngest.
And, you know, I mean, somethingthat I've learned experientially

(09:48):
in life is that we're bornsomebody, you know, because I
adopted two boys at birth a longtime ago.
And, uh, I quickly realized theywere born somebody.
Uh, that they had, uh, a nature,that they had a personality,
that they had something, um,beyond words that makes, made

(10:13):
each of them, them, uh, and Icould, by extrapolation, realize
that I was the same that I havebeen born somebody and then
there's what happened, that'swhat happens to you, you know,
and I certainly one of thethings I was born is I was born
Irish, uh, and there is a, um,and I did have a natural bent

(10:37):
towards poetry and towards thetheater, uh, which I discovered
Uh, along the way, you know,mean I was writing poetry and
stuff, certainly by the time Iwas 10.
Uh, and, uh, the theater came alittle later.
But, uh, when I started writingdialogue, I recognized this is
what I do.

(10:58):
Mm.
Um, so, you know, by all mysiblings are, uh, are, or were
one of my sisters had passedaway.
All of them are very bigreaders.
They just read.
anything.
Uh, and my father only read, uh,the daily news.

(11:18):
That's it.
And my mother was a big reader.
So she was a Kelly.
So that probably comes from theKelly side.
Uh, and, uh, um, but I had aforget The idea of, you know,
were you born a writer or anartist or something that I had

(11:40):
an experience from a very earlyage, a couple of things.
One, I found it really odd thatother people thought that this
thing, being alive, was normal.
I was just like, Don't you seethis is, this is wild.

(12:03):
It's wild that we're alive.
And I had that from a very earlyage, much before writing came
into it at all.
And I also had Organizationalabilities to bring into
existence ideas in my head.
So, I, for instance, had doublepneumonia, was hospitalized, and

(12:26):
I thought, uh, uh, what we coulddo, I was in the children's
ward, is I could arm everyonewith water pistols, And we could
all simultaneously Ring for ournurses and when they came in and
we could ambush and so Iorganized that whole uh and

(12:46):
other Things like that certainlyby the time I was four Uh that I
just I would get ideas And thenbring those ideas into
existence.
Uh, and that was, uh, aforerunner of the idea of

(13:07):
putting on a show.
Uh, but it's more than puttingon a show, because it's really
about real life.
It's about, we don't have tojust go through this day by the
numbers.
We can come up with a plan tomake this, uh, exciting, unusual
day.
To match what I think is reallygoing on in life, that it's an

(13:31):
exciting, unusual thing to bealive.
Uh, and I've never stepped awayfrom it.
I continue to be very, verysurprised that I'm here.
Uh, and I'm very also, maybeeven more surprised that other
people, many other people, arenot surprised.
And, uh, are invested in theidea of this is ordinary, and

(13:53):
this is normal.
Uh, when nothing is normal, andcertainly nothing is ordinary.
Um, so, uh, when I writesomething, one of the things I'm
doing is I'm applying thatsensibility to whatever happens
to be of interest to me at themoment.
That's

so beautiful.
It is so exotic to be alive.
It is.
Scientifically, I think, um, thescientific research says that
the chances of you being hereare Existing at all is about one
in four hundred trillion thatyour ancestors ancestors

(14:38):
ancestors made it through theice ages and the wars and the
famines and procreated andthere's, you know, and they had
a legacy and you're it, thechances of all of that coming
together.
It's like, It's impossible.
I mean, the whole thing isimpossible.

John PS (14:55):
Well, it kind of shows actually the, uh, uh, craziness
of statistics.
Uh, uh, you know, I mean, CarlJung made the observation that
if you look at the pebbles inthe stream and you average out
their size and you come up withthe average size of a pebble in

(15:16):
that stream, no pebble in thatstream has to be that size at
all.
Um, you know, the birth ofstatistics came out of France.
There was a guy in the 19thcentury, I believe, who, uh,
noticed that approximately thesame number of people fell or
jumped into the Seine each year.

(15:38):
And, uh, he, uh, so he started,well, you know, then we can
predict about how many will fallor jump into the Seine next
year.
Uh, and I had this explained tome in some introductory to
statistics college course a longtime ago.
And my reaction to that wouldseem to be completely different

(15:59):
than the professors or anybodyelse in the class.
I was just like, well, that'sfreaking crazy.
That's the wildest thing I'veever heard in my life.
Yeah.
I don't know why and, and thatthe professor and the guy who
invented statistics were notinterested in that that is

(16:21):
bizarre.
They were just like, oh, howuseful, that you can predict.
So now we can use that to, wecan apply that, maybe to
mathematics, to a variety ofsituations to come up with
meaningful predictions.
And I'm like, yeah, but thatsort of skips over the fact that
why the hell do approximatelythe same number of people fall

(16:43):
or jump into this age?
That's the wild part.
That's the wild part.
Uh, and why I probably neverwould have given birth to the
science of statistics, because Iwould have been too busy reeling
from the news.

I get that.
And, in your, in the body ofyour work, are you trying to
talk about these ideas in yourplays, in your movies, in your
poetry?
Are you trying to, like, Is partof that an aim to wake people up
to the unbelievability of thecosmos and you in it?

(17:24):
Is it, do you have, do you havea sort of in the background
already always intention whenyou set forth to like share
these ideas with the world?
Because you really are talkingto the world when you're When
you are putting on plays andshows and movies, is there
something about that in thebackground in terms of your

(17:46):
inspiration for doing it?
Or what is, what is?
why do you, what has you keepgiving these gifts to people?
What are you wanting them tosee, feel, do?

John PS (17:58):
Uh, I don't know what they're gonna do.
I, you know, my job is to be me,their job is to be them, and I
can't leap over my job to theirjob.
Um, that's when you start.
writing stuff that's prettyboring.
Uh, it, my, my job is to noticemy own preoccupations.

(18:18):
Um, and, uh, uh, like forinstance, I've just written a
new play that I'm stilltinkering with and I had
noticed, I noticed that I amVery drawn to, concerned with,
sort of wandering in a circlearound the idea of good and bad

(18:41):
and evil.
Okay, so good is good, right?
Good is good.
Uh, and, uh, bad is not really,because good is like, good
contains bad, you know?
So you said like a person isbasically good.
They got some bad stuff too.
They just do.

(19:02):
And then, you know, you get, uh,the, uh, bad people, they got
some good stuff.
This is for the yin yang, alittle bit of the other, always
going on, and then evil.
That's a quintessence.
So I'm like, Oh, so like evil isactually the only purity.

(19:23):
These other things are alloys.
They are, uh, uh, a bit of onething and the other.
And the balance goes one way orthe other.
It goes towards being bad orgoes towards being good.
But they contain a lot of fudge.
They contain a lot of the other.
And I thought, well, that'sinteresting.

(19:43):
And then it started to expand toweak and strong.
Like, and some people are weakand some people are strong.
And they'll say, well, this is aweak person.
This is a strong person.
And then I got interested in theidea of attraction.
That you'll notice, forinstance, that there are women

(20:03):
who will say, I like bad boys.
And And I'm like, okay, but thesame, I'm not a bad, I'm not a
bad girl.
But I do like bad boys and I'mlike, well, that's interesting,
you know, so in other words,you, so then kind of what maybe
you're saying is I want what Idon't got.
I want, you know, I'm out ofbalance and I need to balance

(20:27):
myself with some of thisdifferent energy.
Uh, and, uh, that started tolead me into play about people
who have, uh, a relationshipthat's based on that.
Uh, and then to really explorethat projection of parts of

(20:51):
yourself onto another personbecause you can't own them.
And that, because that I thinkextends to almost every human on
earth.
Uh, and we've just been througha time where there's been a lot
of demonizing of the other,certainly in this country.
Uh, but you know, Also in thisworld.

(21:14):
And, uh, uh, you know, ofcourse, that's, uh, remedied by
looking in the mirror and goinglike, Oh, there's a comic from a
long time ago called Pogo.
And it had, uh, uh, thing thatsort of became him.
Um, and, uh, yeah.
Uh, a meme before there werememes and it was the characters

(21:37):
looking for somebody who didsomething wrong and finally
realized at the end that it'shim and he said, I have seen the
enemy and he is us.
Uh, and that is, you know, ofcourse in acting or in writing
or any of that, you know, theownership of all of the sides of

(22:00):
yourself, it's really tough forpeople, really tough.

Yeah.

John PS (22:06):
And they can, and yet that's where the gold is.
Uh, the gold is always, the realgold, is always covered with
excrement.
It's in the most unlikely place,and it feels unwholesome.
And that is fascinating.

(22:28):
So then imagine that adding thethat to the idea of of
relationships.
Um, and the one, you know, I wastalking to somebody a couple of
days ago, and, uh, I said, Theywere talking about shame.
I had said that I was ashamedabout something, uh, and I had

(22:50):
said that in a public forumabout some plays that I had just
done a reading of, uh, and Isaid, you know, you know, what
are you, why would you feelshame about that?
And I said, I think that shameis our final protection against
that which in us is the mostvaluable.

(23:12):
Because in other words, if giventhe opportunity.
We, each person will betraythemselves and they will give
away what is most precious aboutthem.
So how do you prevent that fromhappening?
How does the psyche do it?
It's because making you feellike it's the worst thing about
you, then you won't give itaway.
And then when that protectionextends into art, then you

(23:36):
become a liar.
Uh, you can't go to that finalplace.
You can't get to the sort ofcentral truth because you're
ashamed of it.
And that's because, let's say,let's say you're on like some
lousy, uh, sitcom that's beenwritten by idiots and you are,

(23:59):
you, and you have the, have amoment there where in
desperation you would give themyour soul.
You would give them the thingthat, that makes you, you and,
uh, but the thing that saves youis your shame that you think
it's horrible and the worstthing about you.

(24:21):
So you're never going to showthat.
And that protects it.

Do you think there's a time when shame is the
final protector, the last standagainst evil, as you mentioned?
It can also, the flip side ofthat, because there are times
when, listen, if I went out andyou know, went drinking, I
smashed my car and I hurtsomeone and I feel shame, then,

(24:54):
maybe and only then, 1 percentof the time, maybe then and only
then, it can be useful in thatway.

John PS (25:03):
Everything is

Yeah,

John PS (25:05):
every part of you is useful.
That's what I'm basicallysaying, though.
It may seem I'm saying theopposite.
Your shame is useful.

Yeah.

John PS (25:13):
Everything about you is useful.
Every, every part of you is oneof the jewels in your treasure
chest.
It just is.
And then you have to decide, youknow, when you're going to take
this stuff out and how you'regonna, Use it.
Yeah.
When somebody, when somebody,they're, you know, like I'm

(25:36):
writing something and Andthere's a question in it about
murder, that someone in the,that may either have murdered
somebody, or may be willing tomurder somebody, uh, and, uh, I
struggle with that.
I'm like, well, you know, I knowthere's situations in which I

(25:57):
would kill somebody, but youknow, they usually revolve
around some kind of, uh, uh,defending something.
Um, but, um, you look at, and soyou look at that and you go, so
you kill somebody and then you,you continue, you can continue

(26:19):
to function, you can find aplace for that.
And of course, throughouthistory, so many people have
found a place for it in the, intheir psyche that they can
continue to function and maybebe of social use.
Um.
Uh, but then I was like, well,you know, these guys who like
con old people out of their lifesavings, which happens

(26:44):
constantly.
It's happening constantly.
It's like, well, now, who are,who are those people?
And how are they evil?
You know, obviously, it'd bevery difficult for me to look at
that and say they're not evil.
They're not evil.

(27:05):
Uh, uh, because you know,they'll take the person's let's
say they got 200, 000 to comeback and take the last 10, 000.
They'll take the last dime thatperson that they will never stop
until they're drained.
Um, and I think about that.

(27:25):
I thought about, you know, whatit would be like to sit down and
have that person explain to me.
Why they, if they find itacceptable, uh, and would they
be willing, would they bewilling to have that
conversation?
I'd be very interested to havethat conversation, not to judge

(27:47):
them, but to understand.
I like to understand.
So, I started thinking aboutgood, bad, evil, and weak, and
strong, uh, and other words thatall are words that come into
play Having to do with judgment,um, where people talk about,

(28:10):
well, he's a bad person, he's agood person, he's a weak person,
he's a strong person, uh, and,uh, I just knew I could get a
flashlight and go in that caveand endlessly explore the
labyrinth of what that, thosethings mean.
So that's, you know, my latest,uh, area of intrigue is to think

(28:35):
about that and, and do that in aplay.

Which occurs to me as part of every single one of
your plays and films on somelevel.
Well, in so much as, as, as yousaid, there is no, there's no
access to creativity or theimagination or understanding
with judgment.
Judgment is like the kryptonite.
And if you're writingcharacters, so we just watched

(28:59):
Five Corners.
I did with my partner Billy andhis jaw was on the floor.
I was gobsmacked.
I didn't, I didn't expect it.
And it's um, it's so fascinatingbecause of the intersection of

(29:19):
love and passion and violenceand probably two other things
which make up the Five Corners.
And it's fascinating that westarted, you know, you were
saying that the one pure thingthat we can kind of identify at
times is like, that is evil.
Like, for sure, 100 percent thatis evil.
But everything else, andillustrated in this movie, it's,

(29:40):
It's all seems to be in the graymatter that we are a morass of
energies and emotions and are isdo love and violence.
Is that something that becauseit's so prevalent in this movie
and it's such a powerful storyand it explodes what you were

(30:01):
just talking about like in onehuman being or just in one
character, the polarities.
The abandoned little boy who isnow a murderer, you know, the,
it's, it's the whole spectrumand, you know, do, does, well,

(30:23):
I'll ask this question, doeslove and passion always have to
include, is there unconditionallove?
Is there unconditional love?
And if so, what is it for you?
And how do you access it?
When you need to?

John PS (30:39):
Well, well, you know, uh, uh, first of all, nothing
removed from everything else.
is human.
So, uh, unconditional love is aconcept a lot like evil, uh, in

(31:03):
that it is unadulterated.
Uh, and those ideas thatcertainly the Greeks wrestled
with, uh, uh, but of thisquintessence, that quintessence,
I think are very, um, this,they're useful.

(31:27):
In terms of dialectics, they,uh, and they help us, they help
us to sort of clarify ourthinking, but they do not exist,
first of all.
Uh, nothing exists, first ofall, utterly separate from
everything else.
Everything, I think, is onething, and I think all of us are

(31:48):
one person.

Agreed.

John PS (31:50):
And even more than one person, you know, something
larger than the species that werun around in, uh, we are so and
but also, again, though, thatmakes you sort of go in the
direction of, uh, Quintessence,unity, which I always think ends

(32:13):
up being useless because itdoesn't have anything to do with
what's really going on in thehuman psyche.
The human psyche's got it all.
The human psyche eats itsbabies.
And would, uh, step in front ofa car to save the life of a

(32:34):
stranger.
Uh, it's got it all, isn't it?
You know, and you can't have onewithout another.
It's just, uh, uh, uh, a packagedeal.
We are a package deal.
And, uh, anytime you reduceyourself or us to a singularity

(32:57):
of any kind, it's You're missingthe boat, you're not human
anymore, you're not thinking inhuman terms anymore.
And that's all we got.
So then it just sort of becomesa little bullshitty.
But it's interesting.
I mean, it's interesting for meto start with good, bad, and

(33:18):
evil, and then start to bydegrees, and I envy the Greeks
so much.
because of their doggedness insticking with, following through
on ideas and philosophicalquestions that, uh, we too often

(33:38):
give up way early in the, in therace.
We get winded very easily.
Uh, when dealing, especiallywith abstractions, uh, of any
kind, uh, but they are, the moredeeply you go into it, finally,
on the other side, you come backto specifics.
You come back to what it is tobe human, but now you can sort

(34:02):
of label little parts of whatyou're doing.
By the, so let's say a colorcode or something and until you
have the whole rainbow.
Uh,

yeah, my, the whole rainbow is, um, something.
So one of my acting teachers,Larry Moss, who you've met, he,
he always, um, insisted that webring in to class for scene
study and acting techniqueclasses.
You can only work on the bestplays.

(34:35):
Like, don't bring in your twopages of copy from the sitcom.
We're only going to work onEugene O'Neill and John Patrick
Shanley.
We're only going to delve intothe world of Arthur Miller
because his edict was that youcan only grow as an actor in the

(34:56):
hands of a great writer.
And I think it has so much to dowith what you're talking about.
Um, your plays.
explore on a level that I hadnever seen or experienced before
meeting you in your writing thatis so dynamic, so diversified,
so everything.
It is like what you weresharing, like there's a oneness

(35:20):
and it contains all theenergies, all the things, the,
The complexities of the humanbeing mirror and match the
violence and complexities andwonder of the cosmos.
I mean, it's all this oneexplosive energy, which is
undeniable and can't bedescribed all at once.
And that I found to be in yourwriting.

(35:43):
That is in your writing, andit's in your characters, and um,
I've just, I've been in so manyclasses, whether I'm taking the
class or teaching the class, andI just, I give them your, your
plays, because they can't notgrow, because what I've learned
is that writers that are willingenough, daring enough, committed

(36:07):
enough, brilliant enough to beable to write these kinds of
situations and characters, um,If I, the actor, am going to be
in a scene or a play of yours,your play, let's take Danny and
the Deep Blue Sea, your playtells me, as an actor, what I

(36:32):
have to address in my actingtechnique so that I can grow to
a point where I can meet thewriter, you, in the case of
Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, tofulfill upon telling this story.
and it also is something thatteaches people about commitment,

(36:53):
because if you're gonna work onone of your plays or be in your
world, I remember I was in, um,the workshop in 2017, I think it
was, we were in Los Angeles and,um, you were, we were being
assigned full length plays andor one acts sort of on the fly

(37:15):
to workshop.
And I was assigned the role ofthe elephant girl in The
Elephant Girl.
And that is, that's the title,it's called The Elephant Girl.
And, or what was it called?
It's called

John PS (37:31):
The Elephant Girl, and you were assigned The Elephant
Girl.

I was the elephant.
Yes, thank you.
And, uh, I remember there was adescription and we had basically
like a night or two to just sortof go through it and we were
going to come back and just putit on its feet in front of, you
know, the audience of studentsand auditors.
And I remember reading throughit.
I sat myself down before I leftthe theater.

(37:55):
I'd gotten the assignment and itsaid, this is a.
This elephant is in a, like a, ahuge white dress and she's
carrying a red umbrella.
And I left the theater, this waslike the third day of the
workshop, and I went to Melrosein Los Angeles and I raided,

(38:15):
like, to three different thriftstores.
Like, I just started, like,looking for a Vic like, a
Victorian white dress.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I really didn't.
I knew that this was more like,this was a class.
This was a workshop.
This is not a performance class.
I knew we were all just inthere, like, just, you know,
getting together to put stuff upand see what happens.

(38:37):
But I was on this, like, missionto find I just read it in the
character description.
I was like, I'm playing anelephant.
It's a white dress.
So I, I couldn't, you know, I'mfor hours.
I'm like looking through theseracks, you know, and finally I
see this dress and it's like 27bucks and it weighs like 20
pounds and it has its white andit's Victorian and lace and

(38:58):
tulle all the things and I'mlike, I'll take it and I run out
and I go home and the nextmorning.
Or maybe two mornings later, I'mpacking my bag to come in, we're
gonna do now the reading of thefull length play, The Elephant
Girl.
And I pack my bag, and in mybag, John, I put this huge white
dress, I put the red umbrella,and then I put, just like,

(39:21):
another kind of dress that Ihave in my closet.
Just like, a normal white dress.
You know, kind of contemporary,classical dress, black, simple.
And then I also put in my bag,um, just like clothes that you
would wear if you're going to bephysical.
If you're going to go to thegym, just like workout clothes.
Like you might, you might wearthat in an acting class or an

(39:41):
acting workshop.
And so I have this panoply ofcostume items, clothes, items in
this bag.
And I go to the theater, and um,and we're up.
And so I'm backstage gettingready.
We had some time to preparebefore we went on stage to do
this first time ever reading.
With scripts in our hands, butwe're gonna do it on our feet.
We're just gonna stage it on thefly.
And I'm backstage, and I'm withthe other actors in the group.

(40:04):
And I'm going through my bag,and I think it's We'll call him
Ryan.
And I was like, Ryan, come here.
Come here.
And I, and I said, you know, I,I, I found this dress, um, on
Melrose and it seemed to belike, and I know and I know
this, but, but look at this.
What do you think of just thissimple dress?
And, and I was like, or youknow, maybe I'll just wear what

(40:24):
I'm wearing.
I'll wear my, I'll wear my wearoutfit, you know,'cause we're
gonna be active.
And he looks at me and he says,put on the white dress.
I was like, what?
He's like, get in that dress.
I was like, why are you lovinglyshouting at me?
And he's like, why are youafraid to show them how

(40:49):
committed you are?
And that really shook me to thecore.
Cause it's, it's who, it's whoyou are for me.
And it's who you are for so manyactors that we get to meet our
talent and meet our commitment.

(41:11):
When someone dares.
Dares.
On some level to bypass theshame, turn the lights on, stop
hiding, come out and play as youdo with that kind of
authenticity and passion andviolence and rigor and

(41:33):
explosiveness.
It gives us permission john tobe all that we are.
And

John PS (41:41):
I remember your commitment.
I remember your commitment,like, something you could
actually see.

Thank you.
Thank you for reflecting that.
And, you know, a few monthslater, we were in New York City,
and I was able to do your, theFrench Waitress.
At the, um, the theater on the,on the West side.
And, um, and it hasn't stopped,you know, when I'm not with you,

(42:16):
we're still all day every day.
I mean, because we all as actorsthat are as artists.
Who are interested in growingand developing forever.
We all want to know, like, howdo you, what's the best thing
that I can do?
Like, and this is a questionthat I will put to you, like,
what's the most effective thing?

(42:37):
What's the best thing I can do?
My students ask me, mycolleagues, you know, what, what
can I do?
Physically, spiritually,psychologically, practically,
what is the best thing that Ican do to move the needle?
The needle forward on everythingthat I want to do and create and
say, so what would, what wouldyou say to them, John, what is,

(42:59):
what is the thing that they cando?

John PS (43:01):
Oh, you got to declare yourself.
You got to say, I'm here, I'mhere and I'm not going away and
I'm going to be me.
And you're going to have toaccept that.
You claim the space.
You claim whatever's going on,you recognize you're basically

(43:27):
God like nature, that you're notsimply in control of yourself or
something, you're in control ofthe air around you.
Everything you touch toucheseverything in the world.
You're that powerful.
Uh, and which you don't evenhave to, in other words, when

(43:48):
somebody's that powerful, theydon't have to demonstrate it.
They just have to be it.
So, like, I'm sitting here, andwhen I move my hand, I can feel
the air touching my head,touching my fingers.
And then I realize that thisocean, this single body of

(44:09):
thing, what we call the air,that encompasses this entire
planet.
I am manipulating that.
I am in touch with that, andnobody can take that away from
me, and nobody can take away myplace in things.
I was placed here, like youplace a chess piece, at the day

(44:33):
of my birth, and I will be here,moving through the world, and
touching everything, and beingtouched by everything, until my
piece is taken off the board.

That's epic.
What do you tell people?
What do you tell yourself?
When you say, I'm here, Ideclare myself, this is me,
let's go.
And the world says, no, no, no.
Right?
With actors, for instance.

(45:08):
And they say, no, no, no.

John PS (45:09):
I am the world.
I am the world.
I am.
How the can the world tell meno?
I am the world.
I am the center of everything.
And so are you.
And so, you know, a bunch of,like, tiny little people who
don't know that they're anybody,who don't recognize their own

(45:31):
stature and things, their ownpower, their own dignity and
things, who are sitting behindsome table, those are people to
have compassion for.
They are, they are looking forsomebody to remind them that
they're alive.

Mic drop.
Mic drop.
The whole, the wholeconversation.
So, how did you gain access tothe keys to that kingdom of
knowing who you are?
How do we get access to that?
Like, Were you born knowing?
Did you, did you do somewonderful hoodoo magic?

(46:17):
Was this something that youdecided?
Mindset?
Did you?
Okay.
It

John PS (46:22):
wasn't

a

John PS (46:24):
decision, but, uh, you know, first of all, I was born
somebody.
Then at a certain point I becamea writer and everything I wrote
didn't quite work.
And that went on.
For probably 14 years, uh, andthen I wrote, I gave up and I,

(46:50):
and what I had been doing isI've been writing plays to show
how smart I was, uh, and nobodycares how smart I am.
Uh, and then finally I gave upand I wrote a one act play.
I'm like, I'm just gonna, I'mjust gonna write about, you
know, what I think and what Ifeel.
And I wrote this play, Welcometo the Moon, and I did a reading

(47:14):
of it with an audience, and Isaw something happen in the
audience that I had never seenbefore.
And they were saying, this isit.
This is you.

What are they responding to?

John PS (47:30):
And I didn't know.
I didn't know that that, that,and I, my feeling, my response
was, I'll never forget it.
I felt mildly disappointed.
I thought, oh, that's what theywant, the truth.

Ah! I didn't see that coming, folks! Okay, okay.

John PS (47:55):
And I valued, and I valued the truth at very little.
Uh, and, uh, I felt a littledefeated that that's what they
wanted.
Uh, and, but I was like, okay,okay.
And then I started to write fromthat place, and the world

(48:16):
changed.
for me.
And, uh, uh, I wrote Danny andthe Deep Blue Sea, Savage and
Limbo, and Welcome to the Moonall at the same time, back to
back to back.
And when I finished Savage andLimbo, which was the last of the
three, I stood up from my deskand left my wife that day,

(48:38):
because that's what you gottado.
In other words, you can't just,these things aren't in a vacuum.
This is your life.
You know, when you act, when youwrite.
When you do whatever the heck itis you're doing, that's your
life.
And it's precious and it's briefand you gotta live it.

(48:59):
You know, I didn't want to liveit.
I would have done anything notto live it.
I tried every other thing Icould think of besides living my
life.
And then finally I'm like, okay,I got, you know, I had a dream,
uh, the night before I left.
And the dream was, I was in myapartment, uh, and, uh, uh,

(49:22):
there was nothing there.
And, uh, I was naked and I wentto the door and I opened the
door and I thought about goingout and there was, the wind came
up and I caught the door.
And I thought.

(49:44):
If I go back in there, there'snothing.
It's dark.
If I come out here, I'm, I havenothing and I'm naked.
And then I thought, I'm going,I'm going out and it let the
door slam and then my lifebegan.

It, um, it sounds like a moment where your life
came into a kind of.
congruency,

John PS (50:19):
you reach a certain focal points.
But I just, you know, basically,I've come to the end of my life,
right, that that I could notcontinue to do the things that I
had been doing.
Yeah, and continue to live.
Yeah, I wanted to live one moreday.
I was going to have to go.
Wow.

(50:39):
And I went.

How do you muster, how does one muster their life
force like you do to share onthe level that you do?

John PS (50:51):
Clarity.
Clarity.
To really take the time to facewhat you already know.

Ha! To

John PS (51:03):
put it to the test.
Into words and say, okay, Idon't like this and I do like
this and say, if I don't likethis and my life is built on
this, I don't want to liveanymore.

(51:23):
So I'm going to go over herewhere I have nothing because
that's where life is.
You don't have anything.
It's all an illusion.
You don't really have anything.
All you got is you, uh, and assoon as you start to cling to
people and things and, uh, triedand true formulas, uh, you've

(51:47):
left your life.
Like you, you went into, youwent into, uh, uh, a holding
room.
Yeah.
I know somebody who I know verywell who had terrible addiction
and, um, he would call me andtalk to me about it.
And, uh, I would say, you knowwhat I call where you are?

(52:12):
The room where nothing happens.
And, um, there, there's a, heleft that room.
He left that room.

There's a, a song quite popular these days and
it's called The Room Where ItHappens.
The Room Where It Happens.
The Room Where It Happens.
Oh, I

John PS (52:33):
know.
I know that song very well.

But this was the prequel.
This is the prequel.

John PS (52:41):
This was apparently, you know, if I had been out of
musical comedy gifts or musicalgifts, maybe I would have.
If that's not, you know, myfriend still talks about the
room where nothing happens, uh,he's still that made it tangible
for him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it also left it a place thathe could conceive of leaving.

(53:09):
That's important, you know, thatyou, because people feel trapped
because they don't really seeany way out.
So sometimes it can be reallyimportant to recognize you are
in a very specific room or houseand you can leave that room or
house and go someplace elsecompletely.

Yeah.
That's what your creative magicsort of, that's the fairy dust
of you too.
Like when I'm intertwined andtangled with your work, seeing
it, performing it, I'm in thealiveness of life.
I'm just in the aliveness oflife.

(53:49):
And that room where I can go tois, it's really just the space
between my ears.
It's a tiny little room where Ihave one, usually one little
threadbare story that's shoutingreally loud about the way life
is.

(54:10):
But then when I get that eventhe word is, is made up, that
there is no is, there is no isof anything, the word is is made
up, there's the universe, then Ihave access to a portal, and

(54:32):
It's like, then I can gooutside, metaphorically or
physically, of that little roomwhere there's this tiny voice
screaming about the way life is.
And it, and the thing thatreally actually catapults me
into the creative cosmos, isother people.

(54:53):
Like, getting out there in lifeis, is oft times about getting
over there in someone else'sworld.
Being with another.
Cause that's where life, or atleast part of life, is at.
It's at, life is actually out,it's out there.
It's not in here, between myears.
Life itself, and the electricityand magic, And the liveness of

(55:17):
life is actually out.
It's out there.
It is out there.
And, you know, as an actor, partof the technique is stop focus,
stop focus.
Where's your attention?
It's got to be on the otherperson because no one cares when
it's on you.
No one cares.
It's the phenomena of youactually come out.

(55:40):
and become mesmerizing when yourfocus is out there on the
aliveness of life.
It's what brings the artist out.
I think I'm thinking about, Iknow this is quite a toggle, but
your, your Instagram feed, John,it's so delightful.
Like it brings me such joy.
And I know like a lot of peopleare like, ah, social media.

(56:02):
But I just want to say there's ayummy corner of the sky in
social media, and it is withJohn Patrick Shanley's account
and the sort of like, it's suchlike a yummy, I just want to
like cozy up with like my hotchocolate and, and take in drink
in what it is that you might bethinking about musing about in

(56:25):
that moment the other greatthinkers and philosophers and
artists and works of art or aphotograph and um it seems to be
all about that and that's Inyour plays too, I mean, I don't
know if we can compare socialmedia as a platform to the
stage, to the film, but thatseems to be global in your, in

(56:46):
your life, and in your work,like, hey, look at that pond out
there, it's impossible, it'simpossible that that pond even
exists and that we're alive tosee it, that wonder, you know, I

(57:08):
remember in one of our classes,one of our workshops together,
you were talking about, Thedifference between, oh, and this
has to do actually with your,your mom, your source of life,
who I think I also want toremember a story you told me
about your mom and Five Corners.
But before that, I remember yousharing like, there was a

(57:31):
fundamental difference inperception about life.
itself as a phenomenon.
And you said, you know, otherpeople in my life, maybe it was
your mom or someone in yourfamily thought that like life
just was, it was just like a, itwas a blanket statement.
And that for you, life wasmagical.

(57:56):
You used that word, you saidmagical.
And that that has made aprofound difference in the way
life shows up for you in yourworld.
And then for the worlds of thepeople that you touch, we get
that magic.
So I just, I always love thatbecause it has to do with like,

(58:20):
I don't know if you would callthat a filter through which, but
what is your filter?
Like how, how does life occur?
Does it occur through aparticular filter?
Like life is magical?

John PS (58:32):
Uh, no, I don't think so.
I mean, it's just, um,everything reminds me of
something else.
Um, you know, we're metaphoricalbeings.
That's all we do.
We make metaphors all the time.
The way that we perceive, uh,this physical world is

(58:52):
metaphorical.
Uh, we have models in our headand we compare them to what
we're seeing, and that makes ita third factor.
And, uh, but I, I have, uh, I'ma metaphor making machine, so
everything reminds me ofsomething else.

(59:13):
And I'm always working onprobably at least two or more
creative projects, uh, in myhead.
So whenever I'm at rest for amoment.
I wake up during the night, I'mwalking down, I go to one of
them, one of the other, or otherof them gets a hold of me.

(59:34):
I go back, I open work on thingsthat I did 30 years ago, and one
moment that didn't work, andI'll find myself working on it
again.
You know, so that part of my,um, uh, psyche is, it's a
workshop and it's constantly,uh, going from one project to
another that's in that workshop,um, and holds my, uh, interest.

(59:59):
And then, like I said, you get apreoccupation, good, bad, and
evil, you know, and you alsothen you have to notice that.
There's an old folk saying that.
Uh, God speaks in a very lowvoice.
You have to really get quiet ifyou want to hear what he's
saying.

(01:00:19):
And you'll have voices in yourhead that shout, that's not God.
And then the one that you canbarely hear, that's God.

Robyn Cohen (01:00:30):
You can only hear it though, when you stop
talking.

John PS (01:00:37):
That's

definitely.
And listen.
Like your life depends on it,because it.
It may just depend on it.
You listening to that low voicethat can only be heard in the
silence of your soul.
What does that look like for youwhen you're writing?
You just said like, you'll be,you're constantly workshopping,

(01:01:03):
crafting, um, in the question ofany given day.
Yeah.
Like in the course of any givenday, do you have, what is, what
does that process look like?
Very

John PS (01:01:13):
often what I'm doing is I'm wrestling with the question.
Uh, and, uh, uh, the, like,somebody says something in a
play of mine, and then there'sthe other character hears that,
and they say something back, andI may be, I may work on that for

(01:01:42):
weeks, or I just keep, is thatthe really the, is that really
the sort of truthful Next thing.
What's the truthful next thingin this scene?
Uh, not, you know, what would beNeat or whatever.
But what would be, what would bethe truth?

(01:02:03):
And then sometimes, once in ablue moon, uh, uh, I'll be
walking down the street and I'llsuddenly bust out laughing
because I just got an idea thatI did not see coming and I'm
like, okay, well.
All right, then.
All right, then.
You know, and those I live forthose.

(01:02:24):
Yeah.
And they come, they come withsome regularity, not every day.
Yeah.
But with some regularity, justin other words, I've been
writing something, and I get tothis moment, and I suddenly have
this uh entirely different nextmoment comes to me and I'm like,
Oh that is so much better thananything that I've thought of

(01:02:47):
and partially just living withit, you know, just like
continuing to contemplate thewall.
You're staring at a brick wall,you know, like in that movie,
uh, Children of the Damned, Ithink it was called.
Uh, it was about a bunch of kidswho are born with blonde hair
and they have psychic abilitiesand they're evil.

(01:03:09):
Uh, and there's George Sandersis, uh, they, they can read
minds and he has done somethingthat's going to destroy them.
But if they can read his mind intime.
They'll be able to stop thatfrom happening.
So, what he has done is, he isstaring at a brick wall, and he
just concentrates on the brickwall.

(01:03:32):
And so, when they read his mind,all they see is a brick wall.
And then, the time is runningout.
with them to save themselves andtime is running out for him.
Is he going to be able towithstand his psychic onslaught?
And you see bricks starting tofall out of the wall as they
start to get through.

(01:03:53):
And at the last moment theyrealized what was behind that
wall, which is very destructive.
And they like go, ah, but it'stoo late.
And he's one.
So I've turned that around formyself.
And I think about the brick walland I'm like, I'm the children
of the damned.
I'm those little blonde kids.

(01:04:14):
And I'm determined to get pastthat wall.
And the wall is predictable.
The wall is, that's what youknow, you'd think the next
moment would be.
That's what makes sense.
But then if you have anepiphany, then you go like,
actually, this makes like,endlessly more sensitive than
anything I've thought of.

(01:04:35):
And on top of that, it makes melaugh out loud.

Cause the truth is funny.

John PS (01:04:41):
You got something.
Then you got something.

Wow.
What does that actually looklike on the daily?
Are you staring at a brick wallliterally?
Or is that, I mean, how doesthat translate to your world?
Are you just, do you wake up andjust do you have time for
yourself?
You, but

John PS (01:04:56):
I stay in that moment.
I'm writing, you know, I'm, Idon't, I can go in and sit at
the keyboard at any time, uh,and start writing.
That I can always do, but inother words, should I?
Uh, and I'll put off, uh,writing stuff because writing
for me is the treat.
Everything else I do is work.

And

John PS (01:05:19):
writing, so I can just, uh, So I, these days I tend to
write like after lunch and takecare of a lot of other stuff,
but I'm just waiting for thatand I'm thinking about it.
I'm thinking about it the wholetime about what I'm going to
write or what the problem is orwhat I'm dissatisfied with.

(01:05:42):
Like, I just wrote this play,and I found that I really liked
the whole play until threequarters of the way through this
play, a guy walks in.
And every time I get to thatmoment, and I rewrite it and I
rewrite it, I go like, I justhate it when he walks in.
I hate it.
I hate it.
I need it.

(01:06:02):
I see why it could be a goodthing, but I'm in hell.
I hate that guy walking in thedoor.
And so, and I know.
No matter how many times Irewrite this, as long as that
guy walks in the door the waythat he's walking in the door,
the whole thing's ruined.
Uh, and I'm very depressed aboutthat.

(01:06:25):
I never can pass that guywalking in the door.
And then I'll have talks withmyself.
I'm like, John, you know, youdon't have that.
You don't want him to come inthe door.
He didn't have to come in thedoor.
He's like, no, you got to comein the door.
And that'll go on for weeks,sometimes for a year.
Uh, and, but, and then Isuddenly experienced that

(01:06:48):
differently and I go like, howlucky am I that I'm not sitting
here bored.
I'm sitting here tormented bythis guy walking, this imaginary
guy walking in this door.
I mean, most people wouldn'teven begin to understand why I
was upset about that.

(01:07:08):
But

it doesn't matter.

John PS (01:07:12):
It's been real.
That's been an experience thatI've been having for some time
now with this guy walking inthis door

oh, I, I love that so much.
And, and yeah, like who cares ifthey understand why that's so
meaningful or not, because theproof's in the pudding.
And I love what you just saidthat, oh, for everyone listening
out there, the, the writing isthe treat.
That's the treat part.
The thing in and of itself, thething in and of itself.

(01:07:42):
And I think, you know, andthat's what I'd love to, for
everyone listening, like, whatare the myths that are out there
driving us about what life isreally about and, and, and what
are the truths?
Like, in terms of, um, in termsof, you know, creating a life
that you love, like where youget to sit and grapple with this

(01:08:04):
guy coming through the door, thetreat of writing, like in terms
of creating a life by designthat you love being in, what are
the myths about getting thereand what are the truths?
And I suppose it's sort of asidebar of, like, the treat
being the thing in and ofitself.
Because I'm just noticing, andI, you know, I currently live in

(01:08:27):
Hollywood, and there's, there'sjust so much lying about what's
gonna make you happy andfulfilled.
There's, the lies are runningrampant, and it's hurting
people.
It's killing people.
Emotionally.
Spiritually.
Um, because we did not come herefor a pile of things, though we

(01:08:47):
are told when we land fromwherever we come from that, uh,
the holy grail is, is the carand the house and the awards and
the accolades and, and all ofthese things.
So what are the, what are thetruths?
If those are the lies, what arethe truths?
And what do we need to focus onthat really does make a

(01:09:07):
difference toward catapulting usto a created life on our terms
that we love living?

John PS (01:09:16):
Well, I mean, I remember I suffered some.
massive reversal in showbusiness at some point.
I don't remember what it wasanymore, but I was pretty down.
Maybe my love life was not goingwell either.
Uh, whatever.
I'm walking down the street andI'm walking through NYU, the NYU

(01:09:43):
area, Washington square.
And there's a guy with a foldingtable outside the library.
And he's selling used books andI would stop and look and see
what he had.
And I saw this one beat up bookand taped to the front of it

(01:10:06):
because the title had worn awayso you didn't know what it was.
It was a piece of white paperwith lines from a notebook that
he or somebody had scotch tapedto the front of the book that
said, all of Shakespeare'scomedies.
3 dollars.

(01:10:28):
And I looked at that and Ithought, what do I got to worry
about?
If I can buy all ofShakespeare's comedies for 3
dollars, which I immediatelydid, uh, life is great, you
know?

And

John PS (01:10:48):
all my concerns are bull.
They're just bull.
You know,

I got that.
Ah, ah.
Getting over the wall though,you know, like seeing, seeing
life for what it is and what itcan be.

John PS (01:11:07):
Actors, actors, actors.
And you know, the, the, youknow, I go to plays, you know,
and I'll go with somebody, youknow, I go with different
people.
And most of the time I go withactors.
I just know a lot of actors.
And, um, I, uh, but I, uh, andthen afterwards, you know, you

(01:11:31):
have the inevitable conversationlike, well, what'd you think
like it or, and, uh, invariablythe actor will say, or not
always invariably, but a lot, anawful lot, they'll say, well,
everybody was great except thatone person.

(01:11:52):
And it's always the part.
It's always the part they wereright for.

I get that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

John PS (01:12:05):
See, I'm a playwright.
So I'm like, yeah, but what didyou think of the play?
I'm like, what if, I'm like,what bizarre focus?
Yeah.
You're focused on that oneperson and also that it makes
you frown.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, so in a way, eventhough they're more conscious

(01:12:27):
thought is probably, I could doso much better than that person
in that part.
They're unconscious thoughts.
is they're seeing themselves upthere and they're failing.
There are, you know, becausethat is the part they identify
with and they're not happy aboutit.

Recently, there are a lot of people that are not
happy with a lot of things intheir families and the
communities.
in the world at large, in thepolitical sphere.
A lot of people aren't happy.
Recently you shared something ona video you made, and at the end
of it you said, but you know, Istill have hope.

(01:13:09):
And then you said, significanthope.
How do we hold on to that?
How do we hold on to that?
How does that actor hold on tothat?
Who's watching someone on stagehe wishes he was?
How do we hold on to our

John PS (01:13:24):
significant hope?
Your relationship, myrelationship is not with other
people as an artist.
My relationship is with the sky.
My relationship is I am vyingfor a place in the sky.

(01:13:47):
I am free of my earthly bonds.
I don't really, I'm notcompeting with other playwrights
or actors or Movie directors, Ithink I am competing with an
idea of excellence, an idea ofbeauty, and I am going as far as

(01:14:10):
I can to connect with that.
And that is always there.
No one can take that away fromyou.
You On one level alone in life,there are no other people.
You are on your path.
No one else is on that path.

(01:14:30):
Only you and only you can walkthat path.
If you always have this thoughtabout dreams, you know that I
have a dream and I wake up andI'm trying to remember the
dream.
And then I think, you know, if Ican't remember this dream, it
will be lost for all time.

(01:14:51):
I'm the only person who had thisdream.
And that's true of theexperience of life in general,
that if you let it slip throughyour fingers, the very specific
qualities, experiences that addup to Your life.

(01:15:13):
No one else can do that.
No one else can share that, cancapture that, uh, can
memorialize that, or justcelebrate that.
Only you.
So, when I am, for instance,like, writing a play and
failing, and come completely upagainst the fact that I have

(01:15:34):
failed and I probably will neverbe able to get this play right
the way I want, Then I go toanother place and I see me doing
this and I'm by just like, lookat you having this big angst
about this thing.

(01:15:54):
It's imaginary thing that you'redoing.
And other people would besitting here and they're bored
because nothing's going on.
And you're tormented becausesomething is just out of reach
that's great and you want it.
Well, that's struggle.

(01:16:15):
Then you're alive, man.
Then you're doing it.

Oh, so many mic drops.
Yeah.
It's solid gold.
Yeah.
Because the alternative.
Is not bothering because of theshame because of the fear
because of the because becausebecause fill in the blank How do

(01:16:44):
we learn to love the grapple?
Because it's hard.
It's hard, but it's all you got.

John PS (01:16:51):
Yeah.
It's all you got.
But I know, you know, that goingto, you know, when I was talking
about going to the theater and Igradually came to realize the
personality type of an actor isfundamentally different than a
playwright.
It is not the same thing at all.

(01:17:13):
And so It's not enough to say,you know, uh, it's like, uh, one
of my early plays, Women inManhattan, uh, a character comes
to real life.
Thank you.
She comes to a realization whereshe says, it's not enough to
say, be like me.

(01:17:33):
You know, you can't just inviteanother person into your
paradise.
They have to find their own and,you know, a compassion that I
experience a lot with actors isI can see they feel helpless.

(01:17:54):
And I never feel helpless.
I feel yes momentarily or a fewdays or whatever, but I can't
live with it.
But my nature, I can't live withjust feeling helpless, and also
then all I have to do is dosomething.
I can walk over to a keyboard,and I can do something about the

(01:18:15):
feeling of helplessness.
And then I think, well what canan actor do?
What can an actor do?
Uh, and then I talked to afriend of mine who's, uh, um, a
former actor who then, you know,what became a business person.
Um, but, and, but she also was aconcert pianist.

(01:18:37):
She was in a lot of differentthings.
And she, um, Has started, uh, athing in her home in LA, uh,
where she does readings ofplays, uh, with a group of
people and that group has grown,uh, and then they talk about
them after they do.
So she chooses to play and shecasts the play.

(01:19:01):
Uh, and, uh, then, and veryoften, not always she's in the
play, uh, and she's experiencinggreat.
joy and rediscovery of her ownagency, taking matters into her
own hands.
It's three bucks to get all thecomedies of Shakespeare and

(01:19:25):
actually free.
to read them out loud.

Oh, that is so rife with just the truth of, well,
two things about that.
You said the fund, there's afundamental difference between
actor and writer.
So I would just want to earmark,what is that?
What is that in a, in a sentenceor two?
And then, um, what you justshared about cause yeah, I'm

(01:19:53):
gonna, I'll just tell one onmyself that.
For probably the majority of my,I've been acting professionally
for 30 years, and the majorityof it, I have had this
experience of helplessness.
More recently, it hasunequivocally shifted over my

(01:20:13):
helplessness to the category offull blown myth.
It is the biggest lie that Iever told myself, and the
loudest lie.

John PS (01:20:24):
And

reckoning with that.
and dismantling bogus force fedidea from any number of sources
that I paid attention to.
Dismembering and dismantlingthat lie has been the

(01:20:50):
transformation of my experienceon this planet.

John PS (01:20:57):
Well, wherever, you know, people who feel like they
can't find their power, I wouldsay the very simple thing, and
that is You want to know whereyour power is?
Go to the place that makes youfeel like you don't have any,

(01:21:20):
because that's where it is.

Can you say more about that?

John PS (01:21:25):
So, when you're like, oh, I feel helpless, I'm in the
hands of others, everybody elsehas all the power.
Then go to that place thatfeeling of helplessness because
that turned inside out will getyou everything you want you to
be able to, you just, in otherwords, you don't wait for

(01:21:45):
anybody for anything you juststart doing.
Uh, and what you do readings,you produce a film, you put
whatever it is, there's no onecan stop you and what's more,
most people desperate forsomeone to tell them what to do.

(01:22:05):
Huh?
Yeah.
They just want somebody to tellthem what to do.
I'm here.
I've got all the energy.
I've got all these abilities.
Somebody please tell me what todo.
Become that person.
Yeah.
Tell them what to do.
Don't worry about yourself.
Don't like sit there and go likewhy won't anybody?
Do it for somebody else.

(01:22:26):
And everything will start tochange right away.

The sort of the wise man, the wise woman in you
talks to you and says, Hey, it'stime.
Let's go.
And you stop listening to thevoice of the scared infantilized
little girl.

John PS (01:22:45):
Put on a show.
Make a movie.
You can do it.
No one is standing in your way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had, I did a interview a yearand a half ago or something here
in my apartment and the cameraperson.
Um, said something, uh,basically about feeling hampered

(01:23:05):
by the limited choices.
And I said, make a movie.
And, uh, uh, I said, give youthe rights to one act play.
I gave her the rights to one actplay and, uh, she went out and
she raised the money and shedirected the play into a film.

(01:23:25):
Uh, and she just was shown it acouple of festivals and, um, she
broke out of the thing that shehad created for the prison that
she had built for herself.

Yeah.
And that could do it,

John PS (01:23:41):
you know.

Yeah, that's extraordinary.
And it can become the everydayof your existence.
By, you know, take one, oneright minded action at a time,
or something that might trip youup for a while, but you know,
dusting yourself off.
So, okay, so this is a, let mesee how to say this.

(01:24:07):
When I, when I think about yourplays, when I see your plays,
when I'm performing in yourplays.
I feel like you're always, um, Idon't know how to say this, but
you, you fight for people.
You fight for people.

(01:24:29):
All different kinds of people.
There is a commitment behindthese plays that I experience,
anyway, about, like, youstanding up for human beings,
sometimes a certain kind ofhuman being, a certain

(01:24:49):
character, and being in theaudience of, let's say,"Doubt" I
had the experience of JohnPatrick Shanley is fighting for
me right now.
I mean, it was literally like avoice in my head, like someone,
someone is on my side.
I, I mean, I didn't really knowyou at that time, but I knew you

(01:25:11):
like, I've like, I know my ownname in that moment.
Cause it was like, He's, he'sgot me.
That really,

John PS (01:25:19):
that really touched me.
Thank you.

It is, it's the truth of what it is to be lucky
enough to be the recipient ofyour work and your passion and
your love.
And I had never had theexperience of that kind of thing
in a, in a room full ofthousands of strangers and it's

(01:25:46):
seeing a play.
I was like held and it was goingto be okay.
And someone was.
on my side and I kept going backto the play.
I had to, I was like, you know,studying and so I would like
second act it like five nightsin a row.
I did buy two, three fullfledged tickets and then I

(01:26:08):
second-acted it.
So I owe you, I know I do oweyou for the...
But um, when you are writing,because you had mentioned that
You're not trying to make peopledo anything.
You're not trying to make peopledo anything.
That's not your job.
You had discovered that it wasmore about The Truth.

(01:26:31):
But, and, are you fighting, Imean, when you are, let's say,
with"Doubt,", are you like, I amgoing to speak on behalf of
people in this play that don'thave a chance to because they're
children, because they're nolonger on the planet, because,

(01:26:53):
because, because, I, do you havethat in you?
Are you like, part of, Theengine that makes your genius go
is like, I am going to, I'mgoing to, I'm fighting for this,
I'm fighting for these kinds ofpeople.
I am loving on, I want toprotect, I want to defend, is

(01:27:14):
that in there in the alchemy ofyour creativity?

John PS (01:27:18):
Probably.
I think that I, I, Iintentionally and, uh, with a
lot of sweat, create a place, anopen place for the audience, for
them to be able to do whateverthey want, but push back the

(01:27:39):
dialectics on all the sides ofsomething to create a space for
you.
So like, so you're someplace inthe play for you to be you.

Yeah.
Do you just, Love, like, areyou, the love, you love people,
you love, you love, yeah,

John PS (01:28:05):
I really like people, I really like people, yeah, that's
true.
Uh, and, uh, the, in a way, theworse they are, the better.

Okay, now we can talk about Five Corners.
For a moment, or not, but Sure,sure.
Uh, the worst that, can you say,um, a little more about that?
The worse they are, the better,because

John PS (01:28:30):
I've always been attracted to the villainous
colors of, uh, people.
So if I like see somebody, likeI remember I worked with this
guy one time, long time ago.
Uh, he was an administrator at auniversity and, um, he was the

(01:28:53):
closest thing I came to find hewas a villain.
Uh, and, uh, and I couldn't getenough of him.
It was like ice cream.
Uh, and uh, uh

What are you saying?
And

John PS (01:29:09):
then because He was on one level so predictable and on
another I'm like, I just neverhave seen somebody like you.
Uh, and so he delighted me.
And then finally, one day, hecame scurrying out of his
office.

(01:29:30):
And I'm like, what's the matter?
And he's like, there's a spider.
And I was like, this is thecherry on the cake.
He's afraid of spiders.
He can, he walks on water as faras I'm concerned.
That he's got it all.

Is he a character in a play now?
Or is he going to be?
No, no, no, no,

John PS (01:29:54):
no.
But I, I, I have some, I'm veryfond of some incredibly
difficult people.
Very fond.
And I can take a pretty highlevel of abuse in order to get
their company, because thesepeople that I would describe
them as difficult, I have, Ihave just cause for describing

(01:30:17):
them as difficult.
Uh, and so I was sort of keep myhead down a little bit while
they beat me about the head withwhatever's available, just so I
can see a little more.
Just let me give me five moreminutes of this.
It's so good.

Material.
Uh, I

John PS (01:30:37):
I mean, most of the time I don't use it as material.
It's something stranger thanthat.
I just get a kick out of them.

It's it's somehow nourishes, nourishes you..

John PS (01:30:51):
Yes.
Definitely.
It definitely does.
It gives me more nourishmentthan many people who are
supposedly much nicer, muchgooder.
Uh, these other people, I mean,God help me if I was ever in a
room with Trump, I'd probablynever leave.
I'd be eating popcorn and justasking him like, what's your

(01:31:14):
favorite number?
You know, what's your favorite?
Anything I could get, any pieceof information.

Well, that, uh, that's great.
That's make, that makes methink.
Um, one of the things, so I'vebeen working on a show, What the
Constitution Means to Me, byHeidi Schreck.
I don't know if you know Heidi,you saw it.
And, um, and, uh, yeah,wonderful play, and it's her,

(01:31:46):
real story.
The women.

John PS (01:31:48):
I know.
I saw it when she performed it.

Wow.
Wow.
Wow.

John PS (01:31:53):
It was very clearly her story.

Yes.
And, um, Interestingly,originally, the version you saw
when it was on Broadway, youknow, she workshopped it for
many years.
Maybe more than that.
The better part of a decade.
And she didn't know, of course,we never, we can, how can we
tell we don't have crystalballs, but it did a lot.
She never imagined, you know,necessarily that it would do

(01:32:17):
everything that it ended updoing.

John PS (01:32:20):
And

the run closed in 2019 on Broadway, the show that
you saw and in 2019 before thepandemic, she realized that
although she had been terrifiedto tell this story because it's
her story and the legacy of theviolence in her family and how

(01:32:41):
her grandmother ended thatlegacy of, you know, it's, it's
deeply, it's gutting andhilarious and wonderful, but she
had been terrified to put it outthere.
But then when it closed, shesaid, you know, more people,
more people are gonna wanna hearthis story because of the
response she got.
And the men and women who wouldcome to her and say, ah, that's

(01:33:01):
my mother, that's mygrandmother, that's my
great-grandmother.
And so the, the play closes onBroadway, and she goes back to
work with her director, OliverButler.

John PS (01:33:13):
Mm-hmm

And she says, we have to figure out a way to make
it so that someone else couldperform the role of Heidi Schrek
in this play because right nowno one else can perform the
play.
So they, they created, uh,another kind of a play.
They got their friend MariaDizzia, wonderful actress, to
come in and workshop a newversion of this play whereby

(01:33:35):
somebody else could, couldperform the show.
And, um, they created some sortof interstitial dialogue and a
kind of a meta thing where at acertain point the actor says,
Okay, I'm gonna actually playmyself now.
I'm not gonna play Heidianymore.
I'm gonna be myself, Maria, ormyself, Robyn.
And so in doing that andcreating these extra little

(01:33:56):
scene tidbits and dialogue, nowthe show is, you know, it's
being produced everywhere.
And, um, the, one of the thingsthat I I've loved performing in
the show and you know, and thebiggest piece is, of course,
when a seventy year old womancomes up to me after the show
and says,"You know, mycommunity, my family, they

(01:34:19):
banished me when I had anabortion.
And, um, but it wasn't the righttime for me, I could not.
I was a teenager.
But I am so glad I waited." Andthen she'll turn to her right
and she'll say,"Because this ismy 32 year old boy who came at
the perfect time in a miraclemoment, and this is how it was

(01:34:41):
meant to be..." And I just wouldhear, you know, stories like
this all the time.
And so, uh, we're doing it andI'm performing it here in
California in various theaters.
And, um, but the best part ofthe show, and the most
interactive, during the show issomething that Heidi created
that you saw when you, um, whenyou watched the production in

(01:35:03):
New York, which is that shebasically does like this little
kind of Q& A with, between HeidiSchreck and the debater.
And they're questions that anaudience has come up with and
sort of submitted.
Uh, they have these index cardsand the audience can ask
questions of Heidi and thedebater and I met with Heidi and

(01:35:25):
she shared that the reason shemade the last the last piece of
her play like a five minuteconversation where two people
were just sitting and askingquestions of each other is, she
said, because, you know when youdrill it down and when you know
when you strip everything elseaway the world the politics the

(01:35:45):
environment the political scenelike people just want to like,
be in their living rooms,sharing stories, talking to each
other, getting to know oneanother.
Like, just be, be with one, bewith one another and feel the
wholeness of that connection andthe wholeness of themselves.

(01:36:09):
And so she put this in the lastpart of her play.
And as I was thinking about, youknow, our conversation today, I
was like, ah, maybe I just dolike a little Q and A with John.
Just some kind of randomquestions that I would be
interested in, which are all insome ways connected to what

(01:36:32):
we've been talking about.
But, um, would you be up for alittle, I've never done this
before, but I have a couplequestions on index cards that I
have for you, if you'reinterested.

John PS (01:36:45):
I've got to buy some index cards.
What a great

thing.

John PS (01:36:48):
Index

cards are the best.
Do you like the colored indexcard or do you like, I mean, the
size, the five by sevens?
I'm

John PS (01:36:58):
so early in my index card fantasies that I can't
answer that question.

The index cards fantasies.
Ah, I got that.
I got that.
Um, so we joke that the playwe're putting on is called What
the Constitution Means to Me, orThe Play About the Index Cards.
Okay.
So, all right, here's one.
What piece of art has had thebiggest impact on your life?

John PS (01:37:31):
Cyrano de Bergerac.
I was on stage crew for SerenotaBergerac when I was 13, 12, 13.
And, uh, uh, and it was a verygood production student
production that became, uh, alegend at the high school where

(01:37:53):
it was done, uh, to this veryday.
I went, I've gone back to thehigh school.
They threw me out.
Uh, and, uh, but then theyinvited me back as their honored
guest.

All

John PS (01:38:05):
right.
Poetic

justice.

John PS (01:38:08):
I mentioned that play and they said people were still
talking about it.
So the play was performed in1964 and people are still
talking about that production.

Brilliant.

John PS (01:38:19):
And you were on the crew.
I was backstage and I would hearit from the wings and that
relationship to the materialbeing neither part of the
audience nor part of the actingtroupe, but a third thing.
It turned out to be I was aplaywright.

That's so oh, I heard a cell phone come in.
I did.
You're back, you're back.
I love that blending of Cyranode Bergeac and modern technology
and then there we were, and herewe are, we're back.

(01:39:01):
We're back.
Oh, what is the biggest riskyou've ever taken?

John PS (01:39:16):
Oh, man, I've taken a lot of risks.
Yeah.

It's hard to name just one.
A series of risks is your life.

John PS (01:39:29):
It's an interesting thing because I think
objectively, in other words,from other people's point of
view, there's several thingsthat they would point at as, as,
uh, hair raising, uh, risks.
But for me, not so much.
For me, leaving my first wife,because I had nothing.

(01:39:50):
I had no idea of anything pastthe door closing behind me.
I had nothing.
I owned nothing.
I had no money.
I had no place to go.
I just was walking out the doorand I never came back.

Wow.

John PS (01:40:06):
So that was big...

May I just ask as a side, a sidebar, when you walked
out, did you already have thevision?
You said clarity, but when youwalked out, did it include a
vision of the life, your life tocome?

John PS (01:40:27):
No.
It had, no.
It had clarity about the life Ididn't want.
Got it.
And all that was in the otherlife was nothing.
It was me.
It was just the first day of therest of my life and there was
nothing there yet.
But the alternative was all ofthe stuff that I had been
calling my life and that's whatI had to leave.

(01:40:48):
You

Courage! I think of the Wizard of Oz all the time.
It's a big

John PS (01:40:56):
one.
Courage is a big one.

Courage! Uch.
It's in every syllable of John'splays.
Um, what quality do you valuemost in other people?

John PS (01:41:16):
True eccentricity.
Uh, stuff that is just part ofwho they are, that, um, I get to
see, yeah, I mean, most of thestuff that I've done in my life
has been so that I won't bebored, uh, you know, uh, and

(01:41:41):
that has been since the verybeginning.
And the thing that, uh, thedanger is always other people,
because other people want tobore me.
It's an active, it's an act ofaggression.
Wow.
Because what they're doing isthey're trying to control the

(01:42:05):
experience of being alive.
And since I'm having one, theywant to put that fire out before
it burns down their house.
Um,

Ah, okay.
Would you rather know all themysteries of the future or all
the mysteries of the past?

John PS (01:42:36):
There's no difference.
You know, the past and thefuture don't exist.
Uh, all times are now.
Uh, and so it's not simply likethe past is irrelevant and the
future unknown, no.
It's time itself is, I think, anillusion and that all times are

(01:43:01):
taking place right now.
I've already died, I haven'tbeen born.
That's happening right now, andit will continue to happen.
Uh, and so, you know, when youexperience, let's say, the death
of a loved one, they're alsostill alive, um, and you're
dead.
Everything's happening,everything's happening all the
time.

And there's science and quantum mechanics, quantum
physics that speaks to the factof what you just said.
I find it comforting.
As best they

John PS (01:43:37):
understand

it.
They don't understand

John PS (01:43:39):
it, you know, they're barely, you know, kind of
describing out of the side oftheir mouth something that
doesn't make any sense to them.

Yeah, yeah.
Well, how, how could it?
But there's that, that knowing,there is that knowing.
Yeah.
And they are trying to prove itscientifically.

John PS (01:43:58):
Yeah, I don't feel like, you know, when you talk
about, you know, wanting to knowthe mysteries of the past or the
future or now.

Yeah.

John PS (01:44:09):
Uh, I don't really know that there are any.
I don't know that maybe thatthat's the right way of the most
productive way of thinking aboutit.
Mm hmm.

What would be a more productive way?

John PS (01:44:27):
Uh, I don't know.
I think that you just got tokeep showing up and notice your
current preoccupations and howthey change, that they're not
always the same.
Uh, and and what you and whatyou do with that, um,

so I find that so comforting because somehow it
makes it all a little lessmysterious and somehow the
universe more accessible.
So this is a penultimate, apenultimate question from a
student.

(01:45:10):
And then I have one morequestion before we complete.
So the world is ending tomorrow.
What's the last line of theplay?

John PS (01:45:23):
I'll tell you tomorrow.
My, my, my greatest fear, Iexpressed to a friend of mine,
uh, a while back was, I'm on aplane and the plane is crashing,
it's starting to crash, uh, andI think of something really

(01:45:48):
funny and I say it and no onewill survive to tell what I
thought of.
I can't die like this.
This is too good.
Just, somehow, get it out of theplane.
Get it out of the plane.

Ah! Okay.
We should probably finish onthat.
But, uh, I'll just ask you thisas a I mean, that sort of said
it all.
That says it all.
But, as a boon.
How would you, John, describeyourself in three words?

John PS (01:46:30):
Um, oh gosh, I don't know.

That's a good one.
I don't know.
I, yeah.

John PS (01:46:36):
Do we need, do we need so, do we need so many words?
Three's a pretty high number.

There's the answer, folks.
Folks!

John PS (01:46:46):
I am, I am, I am.
I am, I am.
That's all I got.

John, you are.
You are.
You are.
You are.

John PS (01:47:04):
So are you, baby.

This is, uh, this is beyond beyond.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing thisunbelievable time and cyberspace
with me and the many who will beprivy to hear this and so
excited and encouraged to hearthis.
You are, um, And you've really,um, you really make the world go

(01:47:42):
round for a lot of people,creatives and non creatives.
And, um, so on behalf of, onbehalf of the creatives, the non
creatives and the, the worldcommunity, Thank you for your I
amness and thank you for yourcourage and your brazenness and

(01:48:03):
your humor and poetry, andpassion and life.
You just, you make people wantto live.
And every time I, yeah.
And every time I think of you,or I, I, you make me want to,

(01:48:24):
every time I see something, I'mlike, you make me want to be
everything.
You make me want to be an actor.
And then I remember, Oh, good.
I am.
It's okay.
I am an actor, but you make mewant to be, you know, be
everything.
And I just can't tell you whatthat does for me and for the
people around me and for theworld at large.

(01:48:45):
So thank you.
And God bless you.
And, um, this is going to, thisis going to be out there for
people to hear in the new year.
And, um, I'm just going to saythat, you know, for all of you
folks listening, will you comeback for a Part two, sequel.

John PS (01:49:08):
Well, maybe in a year.

That's the right answer.
That's the right answer, folks.
Uh, okay, well, uh, uh, I justwanna, I just wanna, I don't
know, pinch your, not pinch yourcheeks, but you know, mwah,
mwah.
All that stuff.
Thank you also for the danceparty leading into this.

(01:49:34):
That was a total blast.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You're the best.
So appreciate you.
You too.
God bless you.
Ciao.
Ciao.
Ciao.
Ciao.
Grazie.
Amore.
Gelato.
That's all I got.
Thank you, John.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I love you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.

John PS (01:49:54):
I can't turn this off.

He's stuck.
Oh, let's see.
Let's see.
Let's go.
Thank you so much for joining uson today's Daily Joyride.
Wow.
Well, wow.
Oh my goodness.
That was, uh, ah, sometimes Idon't use words to express the

(01:50:21):
feeling.
I just make noises.
So that's what's happening rightnow.
hope today's conversation hasadded some magic and wonder and
passion and inspiration to yourday.
And remember the journey to alife filled with joy and
authenticity and this kind ofexpression, it's always ongoing
and we're here to explore ittogether for sure.

(01:50:44):
So if you're inspired to divedeep, deeper into your own
creative expression, don't missour upcoming acting classes
starting January 28th at thestudio.
It's an incredibly vibrantcommunity where magic
authenticity and power andpresence and creative miracles
are happening right and left andare just coming at us from every

(01:51:06):
direction and with everyinteraction.
So visitwww.cohenactingstudio.com to
sign yourself up and to getyourself in.
And I can't wait to see youthere starting January 28th.
Also, I have a special gift foryou.
It's an audio recording.
It's in the show notes.
It's called 5 PROVEN WAYS TOPEACE AND POWER.

(01:51:29):
It's designed to help youharness your inner strength and
find real tranquility andequanimity in your daily life.
So download it from the link inour show notes or visit the
website, www.
cohenactingstudio.
com for more details.
And lastly, if you've enjoyedtoday's episode as much as I

(01:51:51):
have, or even, even half as muchas I have, please subscribe.
Please share this show with yourfriends and family and leave us
a review if you can.
Your support helps us so much.
It helps us to reach morepeople, more listeners, more
eyeballs and earballs, so thatwe can create even more

(01:52:12):
transformative content with moreincredible guests and so on and
so forth.
So stay tuned, keep shining yourlight, and let's all just ride
the waves of life together withsome grace and joy and power and
presence, and let's keepembracing the art of living and
the art of loving your life.

(01:52:35):
Ha! Sounds like a plan.
Okay.
See you next time.
Mwah!

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