How To Heal Past Trauma And Live A Liberated Life with Childhood Bestie/Psychologist Dusty Persels Menick

Episode Transcript
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Robyn Cohen (00:39):
hello, fabulous friends.
Welcome back to The DailyJoyride Podcast.
I'm Robyn Cohen.
And today's episode is meant torock your world just like it did
mine.
Kind of like the first time Isaw Back to the Future with
Michael J.
Fox because we're going to do alittle time travel as I
reconnect with one of my longlost.

(00:59):
Best childhood friends, DustyPersels Menick, an incredible
mom and psychologist and familytherapist in the Maryland area
where we're from.
And we're going to venture intosome untold E true Maryland
stories from our ute as we openup.
A can of worms, really, or akind of time capsule into our

(01:20):
shared past to reveal somenewfound revelations and
connections in what proved to bea truly healing and profound
conversation Dusty'sperspectives on compassion and
empathy and letting go ofresistance.
It's going to ignite somethingin you.
Speaking of lighting up yourlife, I've opened up all of my

(01:43):
online and in person actingclasses to all auditors for free
through March 4th.
And that, my friends, is theplace where you're going to get
not only a massive infusion ofinspiration, but make powerful
and long lasting connections,Just like I was so lucky to make
with Dusty Persels lo' thosefour decades ago.

(02:05):
So reach out to me on Instagramat Robyncohenactingstudio or by
email atRobyn@cohenactingstudio.
com And find out all the detailsin the show notes so you can
jump in just like we're about todo right now.
Let's go.
Hello, hello, everyone.
Welcome back to the dailyjoyride.

(02:27):
I am so excited.
honored, titillated, to have my,dear friend since the dawn of
time, Dusty Persels Menick onthe show today.
Dusty is, a friend of mine fromelementary school and we're not

(02:48):
going to get into the year.
We're not going to get into theactual years that we met the
dates of when we were in school,but a long, long time ago, and
from the time that I met her,you just always, Dusty, remain
someone that in my heart is likejust one of the yummiest, most

(03:09):
delicious humans that I've everknown.
So a little bit about Dusty.
Dusty is a licensed clinicalprofessional counselor based in
Bethesda, Maryland.
I was actually born at theBethesda Naval Hospital and my
parents recently told me, Dusty,that The receipt for my being
born at the Bethesda Naval is14.

(03:32):
99.
Like, apparently it was on saleand then my mom later says to
me, she says, you know what?
It was worth every penny, all1499 on sale for my being born
in Bethesda.
uh, your focus is on supportingnew mothers, children.

(03:55):
Adolescents and adults who arefacing various mental health
challenges.
Dusty has over 15 years ofexperience in the mental health
field.
She specializes in assisting newmothers with the transition to
parenthood and addressingpostpartum stress and
depression.
Her practice also encompassesworking with children,

(04:19):
adolescents, and adults who aredealing with anxiety,
depression, trauma, Relationshipissues and life transitions and
your therapeutic approach.
You emphasized, Dusty, theimportance of understanding how
personal dysfunctions caninfluence parenting and
relationships.

(04:39):
And you believe that recognizingmaladaptive patterns often
shaped by early experiences iscrucial for facilitating change.
I love that.
Your approach is clientcentered, focusing on building a
strong therapeutic connection topromote awareness and
transformation.
You earned a degree from John'sHopkins University in 2004, uh,

(05:02):
and I love this, quote that youhave on your site.
It says, Our connection is ofutmost importance.
Together, we must recognize themaladaptive patterns in your
life that are causing distress.
Oftentimes, these patterns areshaped by our early experiences.
With increased awareness ofthese patterns and why they

(05:24):
exist, change is possible.
When you say it, Dusty, Ibelieve it.
I believe it! Like, I justbelieved it for the first time.
So the Dusty that I first metand loved instantly, is doing
back handsprings, backflips,we're at recess, we're at summer
camp, we're playing, we're like,When I'm just around you and

(05:49):
we're just having so much fun,whatever we're doing, your
spirit and your life spark is soeffervescent and emanating, so
that whenever I think of you, Ijust, it's like thinking about
Tinkerbell, you know, like PeterPan, you know, like Tinkerbell.
It's just like, it's just likethis ball of light, like

(06:10):
flipping around the cosmos.
Like that's you for me.
And, I'd love to hear how, andWhen did it become clear for you
that you were gonna, embark uponthis incredible trajectory to
becoming a therapist and doingwhat you do in the world?
where do you think that idea wasborn?

(06:32):
You know, what was theinspiration for that?
I mean, it's been such anincredible journey.
I these amazing institutions andpeople you've worked with.
And, so if you can take us backa little bit, and it can be, you
know, we can go back toelementary school.
We can start wherever sure.
Sure.

Dusty (06:50):
First of all, thank you so much for having me on.
I love seeing your face.
I wish we were in person, butwe're going to get there.
Yeah.
I, you know, before I even talkabout kind of how that journey
began, I have to say, you know,I have similar memories of us as
little girls.
Um, I'm sure I was doing backhandsprings and backflips
everywhere, everywhere I went.

(07:12):
But I also remember, uh,sleepovers with you where we
would, we always made pizzabagels.
Um, and in the evening I hadtrouble sleeping.
I was, you know, I just hadtrouble sleeping and I used to
make you sing to me before bed.
and I would always have you singa song from Les Miserables.

(07:32):
I don't know if you rememberthat or not, but that is how I
would lay in bed and listen toyou sing until I could fall
asleep.
and I love that memory.
I love that memory of the two ofus.
well, so anyhow, I thinkhonestly, elementary school as I
I feel really lucky that I knewmy passion really, really early
on.
I can remember being at recesstalking about how I was going to

(07:55):
be a therapist one day.
And

you're like eight years old.
Wow.
And you just had a sense ofthat.
Probably.

Dusty (08:03):
Yeah.
And I think I didn't understandwhy yet.
I knew it's what I wanted to do.
I didn't understand why I wantedto do it.
I think as I got older.
High school and college is whenI recognized that, the
dysfunction that I had grown upin, I wanted to understand, and
I needed to understand it formyself, I needed to understand

(08:26):
how it affected me in the world,and I was terrified of repeating
the dysfunction.
but I think it was mainly like Iwant, I wanted people to
understand me.
And so I kind of turned itoutward, like, Well, then I
better understand other people,and that was a large part, I
think, of my interest inpsychology in like the helping

(08:48):
profession.
and I think, you know, when wetalk about maladaptive,
patterns, they start as actuallyreally adaptive.
They just, at some point losepurpose and then they don't work
for you anymore.
Right.
As a kid.
My main, way of adapting to thefamily I grew up in was to

(09:13):
really seamlessly be able tofall in line with other people,
you know, meet people's needs.
Understand what made themcomfortable because I wanted to
get out of my house.
And so in order to, have yourmom want me to sleep over three
nights a week, and take me onfamily vacations and, you know,

(09:35):
buy groceries at your house thatI wanted to eat.
I had to be pretty perfect.
I couldn't risk imperfection andthem not, those families around
me not wanting me.
Um, and that was very

adaptive and useful at the time to get those needs
met.

Dusty (09:56):
Absolutely.
And that's what happens withpeople.
there are these skills that theycreate for themselves that
become habitual, becomepatterns.
But at some point.
Perfectionism, for example,

it's, and the disease to please, which I've
suffered from, uh, I'm arecovering, Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am too.

Dusty (10:16):
So you, you look over time.
Oh, wow.
This is not working anymore, buttrying to change those patterns
is really difficult.
So, yeah, I think, all of thoserevelations for me were sort of,
It wasn't like I just all of asudden hit me.
I think it was just sort of thislike tidal wave of one thing
after another happening and thenslowly understanding, okay, this
is, this is why I behave the wayI do.

(10:38):
this is how it's affecting menow and this is how I can change
it.

Yeah.
There's a brilliance in the wayyou figured out a path forward
where you could get your needsmet as a young person.
and I think.
we all come up with survivalmechanisms, defense mechanisms
to help get us through the day.

(11:01):
I mean, one of the reasons Ineeded to have you on this show
is because in my experience,growing up, um, more in high
school I felt so, um, alone andisolated at the time.
You know, on the one hand, I wasin the performing arts community

(11:22):
there.
Like as a freshman, I wassuddenly with like the
upperclassmen and I was doingtheir shows and the West side
stories.
And I had just gotten there.
and there was a rift where Ifelt like I was no longer, you
know, I, suddenly I was sort oflike floating away from my

(11:43):
actual classmates, from myfriends from childhood, from you
and Rachel and like just peoplethat I had we had had countless
sleepovers and done these we'dhad these amazing adventures
together.
And I was suddenly in this otherworld.
and there was a lot in thatworld being with people that
were not in my grade, notactually my peers, that I felt I

(12:09):
had to survive.
and I have, over the years, Ihave, I've, like, missed, I have
missed so deeply the friendshipsthat I had before that rift
happened.
I've, like, longed for, I dreamabout, I dream about being,

(12:29):
like, ten years old again.
Aww.
Quite a bit.
And it's a dream about like justplaying and being with my
childhood friends that at acertain point I had to separate
from and isolate myself tosurvive some things that were
going on at that time in ourhigh school.

(12:52):
that, left me feeling like therewas a real in my adulthood.
I just have I felt this hugemissing like a missing of that.
And so I just bring that up tosay like, yeah, the ways that we
try to get through the day andsurvive life, end up in

(13:16):
adulthood becoming things thatno longer work for you.
Like, I'm now engaged to alovely man who's like, feeding
the cats and he's incredible, awonderful, yummy, loving human
being who you'll meet when youcome to live in California.
Um, but until four years ago, Ihad never lived with another

(13:40):
human being.
Yeah.
and part of that is, of course,you can't just live with
anybody.
right?
And I'm in my right mind not topartner up like that's actually
a positive, healthy, goodchoice.
But part of that was anisolation that had to do with
survival.

(14:01):
That was sort of dripping intomy whole life and into adulthood
that wasn't useful.
And that was built upon, tryingto survive something that was no
longer happening in my everydayexistence.
But I was still like a highschooler trying to survive.
And, you know, sidebar.

(14:22):
You know that, so I'm very muchinvested in the performing arts
programs and the music programs.
And, you know, six years after Igraduated, the person that ran
the music program was in prison.
Okay.
So that's a lot Yeah.
Um,

Dusty (14:39):
it's interesting.
Let's go back a little bit.
you, you may not recall this,but in ninth grade.
So when we went into ourfreshman year, I didn't go to
our high school, our freshmanyear, because my mom had moved.
away.
And I had to go to school wherewe had bought a new house, which
was 20 minutes away.
So my freshman year, I startedover at a brand new school,

(15:01):
which had its own impact.
so what's interesting is when Icame back to our high school, a
whole year had happened.
I would not have seen theprogression of you sort of
rifting away from the group ofgirls that we had all grown up
with because I came back almostlike, I didn't know what had
happened the whole year.
And from an outsiderperspective, you know, these are

(15:22):
before the days of social media,but you know, you were the
superstar and, you know, youwere the, the lead of every, you
know, play.
Every musical, every, you know,you were the star.
And so I don't think it wouldhave dawned on a young me to
think that you would have beenlonely or something was going on

(15:43):
because in my mind, you know,you were the highlight reel,
right?
I was seeing you on stage.
I was watching you perform tome.
That was your element.
and you know, all in we'reworried about ourselves in high
school.
we're focused on what we'regoing through and we think
everybody can see what we'regoing through.

(16:03):
Um, you know, everybody wastalking about the dysfunction
that was in my family or the,how I was different than
everyone else.
Um, it's interesting that yousay you felt alone because I, I
think I did too, even though Iwas surrounded by high levels of
social, you know, I had thefriends, I had the parties.

(16:25):
I was the cheerleader.
I did all the things.

Why do we feel, what is this lie of separation
that, that is so insidious?
It's so pervasive.
Like, how do we get people toget that they're not alone?
And your life's work has so muchto do with that.
But it's like, we've boughtinto, Two lies, I think.

(16:52):
I think there's two lies that wehave bought into that existed
before we got here and it's thelie of separation that we're
somehow alone and disconnectedin the cosmos, which is a very,
very scary notion, and the lieof scarcity.

(17:16):
on a planet that is capable offeeding the globe if we were to
rearrange our resources.
and I think it creates a lot ofdis-ease when we believe that we
are.
alone when we believe thatthings are scarce.
Yeah, so then

Dusty (17:36):
we look, you know, confirmation bias at its best.
We look for all the times thatwe are left, that we are alone,
that somebody did not show upfor us.
which only makes us, we then tryto be less vulnerable and, you
know, I think in my journey oftrying to, when you talk about
joy or happiness, my journey hasbeen recognizing that connection

(17:58):
is everything, literally,whether it's connection to my
own personal, physical body.
Connection to nature, and thenmost importantly, connection in
relationships.
I mean, as a society, wesurvived as a species because we
were social beings that helpedone another.

(18:19):
We cannot survive if we isolate.
yeah.
And COVID was an example of,ways in which we isolated that
had such a profound impact.
profound effect on our mentalhealth.

Yeah.

Dusty (18:33):
Because the one thing that is most necessary for us to
survive, we, you know, it wastaken from us.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Your amazing family, twochildren, your husband, Mark.
I love that.
Like, that's not something thatI could have seen coming in high
school because Mark was like,Right?
Like, how?
What?
Like, how?
Your husband, like, he was anupperclassman and we're like,
and he's like a tall drink ofwater, right?

(19:05):
Tall, dark all the things.
But he was like, not in ourgrade.
And at that time, at that time,and by the way, we are going to
have to go back and just revisitthat we did date the same boy.
His name starts with a G.
We'll just call him G.
G.
Lovely.

(19:25):
The lovely G.
Um, we'll get into all of that,but you know, when I think about
the fact that we dated for along time, like I dated, we got
the best couple of the yearaward in eighth grade.
Remember they would have thosesuperlatives in like the
yearbook.
We were, we were donned.
Best couple of the year ineighth grade.

(19:48):
And after eighth grade, we datedfor like over a year.
Like this

Dusty (19:52):
was like a, this was like one of the long break up right
before, You started dating,which I think was

in ninth, what

Dusty (20:03):
grade?
I started dating him in 10thgrade.
We didn't

overlap, but what's so funny about that Dusty is
like at the time.
And he, even when I think about

Dusty (20:15):
it, that was like, no problem for me.
Cause it was you.
No, it was like,

There's like a warm glow about it, I'm like, yes, of
course, we have the same taste,we always, of course, like, and
it's such a unique thing becausenowadays, as a grown up, if you
go and you start dating ormarrying one of your best
friend's spouses, immediately,like, it doesn't work in, like,

(20:44):
the world now, as I know it, butwhat's so spectacular is, like,
I love that we both had, like,deep, loving relationships with
the same boy in tandem.
For some reason, that just makesme so happy.
And I'm like, why can't theworld just, like, always get

(21:05):
along like that?
Like, yeah, you're meant to bewith someone for the time you're
meant to be with them, and thenyou move on, and then share,
Share the, share the love,

Dusty (21:14):
share the love.
I don't rem, I, I knew that youguys had dated.
I don't remember like activelythinking about that when him and
I started dating in my defense.
However, this is not the only,you know, Mark, my husband, my
high school sweetheart wasMark's best friend.

(21:35):
So apparently we have a pattern.
Wait, Mark's best friend, Mark'sbest friend starts with a J, was
my boyfriend all through myjunior and senior year of high
school into college.
So when Mark and I starteddating, it was a little

(21:56):
scandalous, even though we, theex had not been together for
several years, several Andobviously we've moved past that
and we're all good friendsagain.
So, you know, the possibilitystill exists.
I think maybe, I wonder if itdepends on, how successful the
relationship ship was.
I mean, G, um, was a good guy,right?

(22:19):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't know if that makes adifference.
You know?
Yes.
Hopefully.

I think it does, because it's a sum of its parts.
And I agree, there were a lot ofjust good moving parts.
And so it's so interesting lifelike.
this idea of, it's all ahologram on some level, you
know, like it's a moment bymoment creation, depending on

(22:45):
what we're focusing on, whereour focus goes, our energy
flows.
I mean, we've heard these kindsof things.
but these days I'm starting toreally look at this idea of
being.
a receiver, like a, almost likea radio receiver.
And depending on like wherewe're tuning in, that's the

(23:07):
music we're going to hear.
and in the same way that aradio.
You remember old fashionedradios?
I used to listen.
We used to listen to radios,folks.
And in the same way that, youwould tune the radio to 103.
5, 107.
3, and depending on where youtuned the radio, you would be

(23:30):
listening to hard rock or reggaeor classical music.
But what's so fascinating isthat all that music is actually
always there.
Right.
It's literally all, yeah, all ofthat music and every station in
the universe, all those soundvibrations are literally there

(23:55):
all the time.
It's just, they're hidden inplain sight.
It's literally like hidden inplain sight.
And that's kind of a roundaboutway, long way to a ham sandwich.
I just heard that phraserecently, long way to a ham
sandwich.
I don't eat ham, I'm a vegan for25 years, but, um,

Dusty (24:12):
I feel like you make a ham sandwich pretty quick.

Well, maybe, maybe.
Yeah, I don't know how long ittakes.
I don't cook.
And I want the listeners toknow, it's not that I don't love
food and love arranging things,I'm a good arranger, but just to
give you an idea my oven is avery good place to store extra
shoes because it makes a greatshoe rack.
If it's not being used as anoven, your oven is great.

(24:38):
Extra storage but to toggle backto this idea of like, what's all
always already there, but hiddenin plain sight, it's almost
like, there's something aboutMark being someone that you knew
that was like in yourconsciousness, in your
awareness.
But then there was a moment.
There was a moment or manymoments where you started to

(25:00):
tune your receiver to be likeWhat's this station playing?
Was there like some sort ofawakening like, ah, that's great
music or how did that come intoexistence?
you just started to see thisperson in a different way or
newly or for the first time orWhat, and what was it about him

(25:23):
that was like, that's the musicI want to listen to?

Dusty (25:28):
that's, it's a great question.
I don't, I don't really knowother than that.
He pursued me for a long time.
Of course.
We've all been chasing Dustydown for years Yes.
Yes.
So I, you know, he was in myawareness for a long time as
like a suitor, if you want tocall him that.
And then there was just a pointin my life where I think I was

(25:52):
ready to receive what he wasoffering and, uh, and it opened
myself up to it.
we started dating when I was 24,turning 25.
I don't think prior to that Iwas ready.
and so, you know, and he couldhave given up at any point.
Place along the way, uh, but hedidn't.

(26:15):
So I think eventually I just wasopen to it like you said and I
believe that to be true about alot of different aspects of life
that you know in the same waythat you're talking about like
that it's there's always thechatter is always there and it's
sort of what you're tuning intoit's really important to pay
attention to where you are.

(26:36):
Constantly putting your focusbecause you will go in that
direction.
You know, I remember in driver'sed, the, the instructor is
saying, if there's an accidenton the side of the road and
there's like, you know, thecones on the side of the road,
don't look at the cones becauseyou will steer towards the
cones.
Look at where you want to go.
Yeah.
Not at what's happening off tothe side.

(26:59):
Yeah.
And that's sort of the way Ilook at a lot of this.
Like, you know, do I wanna be ahateful person?
Do I wanna be You know, theperson that wallows in
victimhood.
and that, that's not to say thatall those things don't have it's
place sometimes and I wanna ventand, you know, be catty or I
wanna, you know, feel why meevery once in a while.
But for the most part, I wouldlike to tune into the things.

(27:21):
That put me in the direction ofthe person I want to be, not the
thing I'm trying to avoid.

Yeah, that's beautiful.
And.
When I think about, as you weresharing, the dysfunction when
you were growing up and thechallenges in your house and
with your, family and trying toget away from all that, and also
carving out a life where youcould ensure that you wouldn't

(27:47):
repeat those things.
Um, what was the big mess?
that you were able to turn intoa message that is your life?
I like

Dusty (27:57):
that question.
Um, you know, my parentsdivorced or separated when I was
three.
So my father had moved out whenI was really young.
my mom was diagnosed bipolar,um, majority of my childhood
unmedicated or under medicatedor on and off.
and was an alcoholic.

(28:18):
so I spent a lot of my childhooddoing a few things.
Number one, trying to, hide thatfrom other people because that
felt embarrassing to me.
and also getting really good atreading the room, right?
What was I walking into in theafternoon?
Was she going to be manic?
Was she going to be, depressed,angry, agitated, sad, drunk,

(28:42):
sober, you know, so you, you getreally good.
I got really good atunderstanding where she was.
And then depending upon that,you know, going to my room,
going to gymnastics, going to mygirlfriend's houses, hanging out
with her, right?
Like I needed to be able to readwhat was going on for her.
And then, you know, adjust myneeds based on that, which often

(29:06):
meant cut your needs off becausethey're not going to get met.
and I say this all at the sametime as saying my mother had
traits that I absolutely admireto the core.
You know, my mother, she was anartist.
you know, she died only sixweeks ago.
so that's really fresh for me.
She was an artist.
She was, she talked aboutTinkerbell and living life.

(29:28):
She was the quintessential PeterPan, I guess.
Right.
She was the one that, that, youknow, jumped up in the middle of
the party and started to dance.
She was the one that stood inline at the diving board at the
pool with us.
she never shied away fromliving.
And, and I loved that, you know,sometimes embarrassed the hell

(29:50):
out of me, but, but in many waysI have taken that into the way I
parent my own kids.
So mess to message, she was, shewas very lively in that way and
not embarrassed to be who shewas.
and although it was embarrassingas a kid, as an adult, I'm in
line at the diving board.

And doing the most amazing handstands all around
the world.
And on these vacation spots, youcan rock a handstand like nobody
I've ever seen at any age, atany time ever.

Dusty (30:20):
It's funny.
Every year I get back on thediving board and I think, Oh, is
this going to be the year that Ican't do a one and a half, you
know, deep morning on that day.
It hasn't happened yet.
Every year I've still been ableto do it.
and the handstands actually cameout of, My diagnosis of colon
cancer six years ago.
I'm totally fine.
and, I was very, very lucky, butafter my diagnosis and surgery,

(30:45):
I decided that I was going tolike grasp life with a little
bit more joy, and I wanted totravel.
It was something I always wantedto do this travel more.
So I said, You know what?
I love messing around.
I love doing handstands andflips.
And I'm the mom at theneighborhood trampoline, jumping
with the kids.
And so I wanted to just, youknow, You know, have fun with
it.

(31:05):
and it's funny, people will sayto me, like, like various
questions.
How do you get away with that?
Or, the questions that make itseem like they want to do it
too, but they're too embarrassedor afraid.

Yeah.

Dusty (31:19):
You know, like, I can't believe you'll get on the diving
board, you know, and like withall the kids in line,

What gives you the courage, the gumption to be you
and to live full out and to takeevery day and do handstands and
flips no matter what the age.
And I see you doing it whenyou're 105, by the way.
but how do we get, how do we getover that wall?
I think it has to do with caringso much about what other people
think and trying to look good.
Um

Dusty (31:43):
Yeah.
I had to stop that.
Yeah.
I spent so many years hiding,hiding myself because of my
embarrassment and it was very,you know, the community we grew
up in, it's very, marriedcouples, the, professionals,
highly educated, not that myparents weren't highly educated
professionals, but you know, it,there were, I didn't have a
friend who had divorced parentswhen we were growing up.

(32:07):
I certainly didn't have a friendwho had a parent who was openly,
you know, addict or diagnosed,mental illness.
I mean, if that was happening,that was very hidden, whereas
mine really wasn't.
It was sort of out there andpeople knew.
So I spent so many yearscurating, hiding that and

(32:27):
showing outward perfection andnot embarrassing myself.
I mean.
I don't even like blowing mynose in public.

God forbid, God forbid.
I'm going to blow my nose.
When

Dusty (32:41):
I tell you if I'm in class or somewhere in public and
I see someone blow their noseout in the open, I am like.
Jealous almost.
I'm like, I can't believe theycan just do that without being
totally ashamed at this likebodily noise.

Oh, what is this shame piece?
This shame that gets lodged thattakes over like an alien monster
and Right.
And kills us, and then we justbecome the walking dead because
of this shame which is, Ah, Ijust, I've started to, I've

(33:16):
started to graft shame ontothings that I just don't do,
like, So it's sort of this,practice where I'm so clear
about things that I don't do,like, I don't do heroin.
Like, I don't, I, I don't doguns.
I don't do, like, there's justthings that it's just like so
obvious, like, there's nonegotiation.

(33:36):
It's just like, it's just solike, core of my like, identity
And I've started grafting, like,I don't do heroin.
I don't do, I don't do shooting.
I don't do, I don't do meat.
I don't do shame.
I don't do heroin.
I don't do shame.
I don't do guilt.
I don't do guilt.
I don't do heroin.

(33:57):
I don't do like, I've started tosort of group these things
together to create some kind of,you know, with all the
neuroplasticity just to createthese pathways of like, I just
don't like, don't do it.
It's, it's not.
And it's a practice.

Dusty (34:14):
Yes.
So I think my way of doing thatwas to do the things that I, you
know, not embarrassing thingsthat I would deem as bad, but,
you know, doing the handstanddoing that.
I, you know, I love clothing andI could probably trace that back
to, one of my insecuritiesgrowing up was that all my
girlfriends had all thesebeautiful designer clothing and,

(34:35):
you know, these huge walk inclosets with, a different outfit
every day of the week.
And I would carefully craft, Ihad a Wall, calendar, and every
day I would write down what Iwore because I didn't want to
repeat the outfit too quicklybecause I thought people would
notice that I just didn't have,I was poor and didn't have a lot
of clothing.

(34:56):
And then I would figure out howto, you know, put a different
pair of pants with a differenttop.
So even though I wore that topalready that week.
It would look different andmaybe people wouldn't notice
anyway, So, so one day I, andpeople as an adult would always
would start to comment, Oh, youknow, I like what you're
wearing, where'd you get it?
And, and so finally one day Ithought, you know what, I'm

(35:17):
going to start an Instagram siteand start posting my daily
outfits for people.
I was terrified to do that.
I'm terrified because I thoughtpeople are going to judge me.
They're going to say, why doesshe, you know, she's posting
pictures of herself and soegotistical, you know, nobody
cares.
and again, it was right after mycancer diagnosis that I was kind

(35:38):
of like, F it, you know, like,yeah.
People are asking me, I love it.
It's fun.
I don't care what they thinkanymore.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
I will post my outfit every dayand you can like it or judge it.
And that's not, you know, that'son you.
That's on you.

That's been such a learning that that's on you
piece of like, it's actually notmy business.
it is about you, your reactionto me is about you and and you
get to be responsible for yourreaction for so long.
And for so many years, I'm like,I'm responsible for everyone's
reaction to everything and Ihave to manage it and control

(36:15):
it.
Which is hell.
It's literally living hell totry to control other people's
reactions.
And also being an actor inHollywood, week after week, day
after day, like pick me, pickme.
Pick me.
I can't control any of that.
But thinking I can, you know,the, the suffering that goes in,
into that, and also sort of justoutsourcing my love and joy and

(36:41):
power and freedom, justoutsourcing it to anyone on the
street, you know, And so That'sbeen a roller coaster of
divorcing myself from thisdisease to please and the
approval.
And it is amazing.
Like we have these moments inlife we're, we're looking at our
mortality, you know, I, I had anaccident.

(37:03):
Um, I fell into an orchestra pitopening night of a production
that was happening on the Eastcoast of a Sam Shepard play.
And, um, it was right beforethe, uh, 600 people were about
to come in to see the show.
We were having our finalrehearsal and someone called my
name.
I jumped.
And next thing I knew there wasa hole in the stage that I.

(37:26):
that shouldn't have been there.
But I fell into the pit and, um,I broke my back and my arms and
I was in a wheelchair, and Iwent back, this is, um, July
4th, 2013.
And I went back home to Marylandto live in my father's home.
mom and dad's bed because I wasin a wheelchair and my back was

(37:49):
broken.
I couldn't sit up or doanything.
So I'm living in my, parentsbed, which is on the first
floor.
I had to move home because Icouldn't, you know, All the
things.
And so, and it was in thatmoment that I had to, I was
pulled to get in to true,authentic contact with

(38:12):
everything I was that hadnothing to do with what I showed
the world.
Like I had to literally Icouldn't move, let alone sing or
dance or act or be on a TV showlike I could right so I was
like, What is the everythingelse that I am that is?

(38:32):
you know, has nothing to do withwhat I do in the world.
And, since that time, I've beenon this sort of journey but it
ain't, it ain't easy.
And it's a daily procedure.
And sometimes it's verysurgical, right?
to go forth living the authenticversion of yourself with joy and

(38:54):
creativity and fun.
And if they don't like it, Noproblem.
But that's sometimes harder todo, on certain days than other
days.
And, you know, when you weresharing about your mom, just to
go back for a minute.
and we talked about this at ourreunion, but, um, Your mom is

(39:14):
one of the people thatinfluenced me to go out and live
my dream as an artist, as anactor, in Los Angeles, when
nobody at the time was doingthat.
Very few, right?
We're from the East Coast and wewere gonna, I'm an East Coast
girl, all the things.
But being around you and yourmom who, me, that you could go

(39:39):
into the refrigerator and eatraw meat, that you could, we
were talking about, you know, atthe, at the reunion, it was
your, your mom was, um, she'sthe first person.
Feminist that I was in realcontact with and I didn't know
that word at the time I didn'tknow what that term even meant
and that was what was beingtransmuted being in your mom's

(40:01):
presence.
I miss her so much I miss herdancing and her joie de vivre
and I borrowed it I borrowed it.
I didn't know that that washappening and that was
transpiring at the time, but itwas like, um, just being around
her opened up, uh, worlds ofpossibility.
Um, even though, you know, shewas, uh, we were different kinds

(40:23):
of artists, we were doingdifferent kinds of arts and
crafts, but It was so excitingto to be around and and the
dancing that she would, youknow, I was a, I was a
professional dancer.
That was my first career.
I I remember also being at yourdad's.
And yes, I remember his.

(40:43):
Grace, I remember your dad'selegance.
You know, I didn't have the sameamount of interaction, but I, I
do, I just remember and treasureboth your parents.

Dusty (40:56):
You know, My mom, uh, she, it's like she did not have
a choice with art, right?
It literally like came out ofher pores.

Wow.

Dusty (41:06):
Um, that was just her.
And so I don't think it wasever, you know, there wasn't
anything that she was going tobe able to tamp down.

Yeah.
You

Dusty (41:16):
know, whether the good, the bad and the ugly.
Um, and, and as a kid, ofcourse, you just want to fit in
and you don't want to stand out.
And I can remember my friendswanting to hang out with my mom
and being so annoyed, like, likeshe's weird or she's, you know,
like crazy and like, it'sembarrassing, but my friends
loving it because it gave themfreedom.

(41:39):
They could say whatever theywant.
They could curse in front of mymom.
They could talk to her aboutsex,

you

Dusty (41:44):
know, all the things that they weren't going to be able to
talk to their own parent about.
My father was much quieter.
Um, you know, he was a farm boyfrom Iowa.
He

was a farm boy with Nordic ancestors.
Very Nordic.
Very Nordic ancestors.
Viking blood.
For sure.
Full on Viking blood.
Game of Thrones bloodlines, butborn in a farm in Iowa.

Dusty (42:12):
Right.
Totally.
Yeah.
He tells the funniest story.
He played football forDartmouth.
And when the recruiters forDartmouth came to Iowa to watch
him play, they said, you know,we're from Dartmouth.
And he said, where's that?
And they said out East.
And he thought that meant EastIowa.

(42:33):
He started the conversations ofbeing recruited to play at
Dartmouth, thinking that it wasa school in Iowa, just on the
East side.
It's like, yeah, I'll take it.
Perfect.
Uh, but you know, I will saythat that's another thing,
sports, you know, when we talkabout ways in which sports and
coaches, and, I did not knowthat about the, the, the music

(42:56):
director ended up in prison.
Um, I actually, I don't know ifyou know this.
I, one of my gymnastics coachesactually.
Well, I don't think he actuallywent to jail.
He killed himself before he wentto jail.
He worked very tightly withLarry Nassar.
John Ketter, and I can say hisname because, he is all over.
He was in the documentariesabout the gymnast and, and he

(43:17):
was my coach.
And then he went on and he's, hecoached at the Bella Caroli
ranch after he left my gym.
and he knew what was going onwith Larry Nassar and all the
gymnasts and he hid it.
and he was arrested and, and Ithink he killed, I know he
killed himself, but I think hedid it right before he knew he
was about to go to prison.

(43:39):
but those coaches have such animpact on your life.
And, you know, some of them notin a great way, but sports also
kind of saved me at the sametime, right?
Like, I was, A gymnast, that wasone of my, I held onto that
title.
From gymnastics I was reallyable to do any sport I wanted
because once you're a gymnastyou can kind of do anything.

(44:02):
You could do,

and you really could.
Dusty would just defy gravity.
Have you seen Wicked like fivetimes?
You know the song defy gravity.
Yeah.
See wicked like five times in arow.
they talk about like people thatjust defy gravity.
And that was you every day atrecess.
And then wherever we would go,it was like, it was the
highlight of my childhood.
Just watching you crush it atrecess, practicing.

(44:26):
You would practice.
Yeah.

Dusty (44:28):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
My mother would, we would go tothe mall and my mother would
announce down the hallway of, ofthe mall.
Everybody clear out.
And then I would run down thecenter and do round up back
handspring back flips.
And again, it's this weirdthing, this dichotomy between
that's so like embarrassing,right?

(44:50):
like, I can't believe that mymother would like do that and
encourage me to do that.
And then on the other hand, itgave me such freedom to do what
I wanted to do, which was flipeverywhere.
I went,

which to me is a spiritual practice.
You had mentioned that, there'ssomething about.
Dancing, flipping, a spiritualexperience, through embodiment,
through being in your body andconnecting with, the world,
through your body, through yourmovement, through sports,

(45:24):
through handstands and backhandsprings the metaphor I mean,
We want to dance in life.
We want to dance inconversations.
We want to, we want to dance,right?
Like the partnership, the waythat we connect with people, it
is a dance.
it is movement based.
And so, you talk about howsports and gymnastics, like it

(45:45):
was a saving grace for you.
And I do think that it is, it isin the Bible too.
Singing and dancing before theLord is in the Bible.
They talk about it in Footloose,the movie with Kevin Bacon.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And the interesting thing

Dusty (46:00):
about the dancing is that I talk about this with my
clients sometimes when we'retalking about boundary setting,
the dancing is such a metaphorfor that too, that if you don't
like the dance you're doing andyou stop or you change the
dance, the other person has nochoice but to change with you or
walk away.

(46:21):
But you don't have to be stuckin that same dance.
Um, and a lot of the times theymight fight against it at first,
the person that you're settingboundaries with, but eventually
if they want to be inrelationship with you, if they
want to keep dancing with you,they will alter what they're
doing to meet your needs or toappreciate and respect your

(46:44):
boundaries and they will changethe dance too.
And all it takes is you just notdoing the same dance you always
did, which seems easy and ofcourse it's not.
But yes, it is.
Dance is definitely very much ametaphor.
for life in a lot of differentways.

100%.
And it's, and it's similar toturning the station to another,
you know, on the radio, well, Idon't like this music.
All right, let's change thestation.
The courage though, to changethe station, Well,

Dusty (47:10):
how do you but I think that you, I, I, for so long was
stuck in, why do I deserve toask mine for my needs to be met
or to change a station?
I can just suck it up.
Cause I know I can handle it.
I know I'm tough enough.
I know I can handle it.
I'll just stick with thestation.
Everybody else is listening toright.

And

Dusty (47:27):
when I would see somebody else like say, no, I'm, I need
this.
Or I want in the beginning, Iremember thinking like the
nerve, how dare.
Right.
And now, finally coming into anage in my life where, no, like
I, this is a need of mine and Ihave every right to speak to it

(47:49):
I don't feel the need toapologize for it anymore.
And I am working towards,feeling like, you know, if my
needs aren't being met, it'sokay to stop trying, you know?
Yeah.
you don't have to sit indiscomfort forever.

How do you infuse people with the 20 seconds of
courage it takes to say no, orto say, I'm turning the station.
how do we muster the courage?
Do we just keep what's on theother side of that wall in mind?
because it can be so hard, Ithink maybe it gets easier as it
becomes a practice, but it'slike, transformation is so

(48:30):
available and also it seemsimpossible until it's happening.
Faith, I mean,

Dusty (48:39):
I think sometimes it's just realizing that you know,
there was a lot of talk rightnow about like the emotional
load that women often hold inrelationships.
And, what starts out as I canjust handle it, right, because,
you know, I can do all thethings I can work full time and
I can handle all the, you know,ins and outs of my family's life

(49:00):
and the emotional, load of howto handle my kids and my husband
and whatever I can do all that,but eventually that becomes
resentment.

Yeah.

Dusty (49:11):
And resentment is the cancer that will kill it
completely.
So I think sometimes it's justrealizing, you know what?
I could keep doing what I'mdoing, but it's not just going
to kill me.
It's going to kill us alleventually.

You know,

Dusty (49:26):
it's worth just trying another way.
But a lot of it, is one of themost difficult parts is feeling
like the self esteem is there.
The self worth is there enoughthat like.
Yeah,

and when I hear you share about what was going on in
your closets and picking out theclothes and, and me I felt so
alone and like I didn't know howto get through the day.
without disease you know, I, youknow, from the outside, I'm
like, you're, you're everything.
Like I look at you and like, welook at people and our

(49:59):
experience of them is like,you're the best, like literally.
And there's such a chasm betweenand I'm reckoning with how.
for so long and for decades, howI have been so mean to myself,

(50:21):
so mean, so unforgiving.
I would never treat a friend, Iwould never talk to a friend the
way I talk to myself.
Like, I owe myself an apology iswhat I'm starting to come up
with.
Like, an apology for being somean, cruel at times, and um,

(50:42):
and forgiveness.
and I love that you said we haveto start to let go because there
is so much over functioning,overdoing.
The codependency, it is rampant,and it is doing a violence to us
all, so I love the bringing inthe awareness of like, rather
than trying to Hold everythingcan we let go so that we can

(51:07):
have the capacity that capacityisn't about putting more in I
can hold this I can overfunction I can do everything for
everyone.
And we think that's us atcapacity, but it becomes disease
and overwhelm.
So maybe rather it's like, howmuch can I let go?

(51:27):
How much can I actually let goof?
you know, my favorite word thesedays is is ease.
I just love this idea in themorning of just tuning the radio
station.
Like in a meditation Do youmeditate?
Do you have a practice?
a meditation practice of anykind.
Yes.

Dusty (51:48):
I have a yoga practice.
I do a lot of walking and that'smy kind of thinking time.
A lot of walking, just me too,walking, we're going

to, we're, I, we're going to walk for 10 miles a
day.
When you're out here I do have ameditation practice, but similar
to the walking meditation, youknow, These days it's like,
remembering.
to remember that it's all right,it's all right, it's all right.
And I don't have to hold theworld.

(52:19):
I don't have to try to controlit.
You know,

Dusty (52:20):
this is where for me, having kids was so healing.
I have two boys, they're 18 and15 and, it's so easy to love
them.
It's just the easiest thing inthe world, which is so freeing.
There's it's to have that typeof unconditional love and like,
Really like your kids is justthe coolest.

(52:42):
But if I'm losing patience forthem or I'm annoyed, or I get
that level of resentment, I havelearned that I, uh, it's time
for me to let something go,right?
Like this is not on them ifthey're asking and I'm feeling
like they're needing too muchor.
You know, or I'm like resentfulabout something that is on me.

(53:04):
I have to figure out what else Ineed to let go of rather than
to, force that feeling to goaway.
Right?
Like it's my own practice.
I, there's a term that I love,love, love that sort of comes
into play.
A lot of this time, a time,which is.
if it's hysterical, it'shistorical.

(53:26):
Ooh, that's so when you reallyhave those moments where you
lose it over something, you'reso triggered, you know, and you
can feel it in your body, thatgoes way back.
And you can usually figure thatout.
when I get triggered, when I getthat, to that point with my kids
or my husband, where I'm feelinglike they're asking too much,

(53:48):
right.
Or I'm, feeling trapped by it.
it's that feeling of being alittle girl trapped in the
situation I was in and not beingable to do anything about it
because it was a kid, you know,but we're not, kids anymore and
I can do something about it.

And it's amazing that it sounds so simple when
you say it, and yet, and yet, Itain't easy to live that.
so, okay, before we say goodbye,the world is worlding, life is
lifing.
There's so much that ishappening right now.

(54:31):
and.
at a very divided time, what doyou want to give to your
patients?
What do you want to give to yourfamily?
What do you want to give thewhole world

Dusty (54:41):
Oh, man.
that's a question.
I think the compassion, that'swhat I want to give.
And in order to becompassionate, I have to be
willing to try to put myself inthose people's shoes, even the
ones that I, to the core,fundamentally disagree with.

(55:04):
You have to put yourself in theshoes of the other person, even
a sliver of, compassion.
You almost always can findcompassion for that person.
and I think, yeah, that's what Iwant to give.

That's so beautiful.
It's amazing.
I'm always talking to my actors,my students.
you can't be an actor withoutcompassion.
You can't be an actor withoutempathy because the job is to
literally step into someoneelse's shoes.
Yeah.
And to, and to walk a mile.
It's literally to walk a mile inthe character's shoes, which is

(55:41):
why if you don't have access toempathy and compassion, There's
no access to to the world ofacting, because you're work is
to literally embody to Head totoe, another human being and
what that, person loves, hates,where they grew up, what their

(56:01):
education was, what theirreligious practice was, uh, who
they fell in love with, whobroke their heart, what they
live for, and what they woulddie for.
It's your job as an actor to goand sort of map that out.
And, regardless of whetheryou're playing a person that
you.
You know, in the everyday,would, not spend two seconds

(56:22):
with.
would actively avoid.
Yeah.
It, it becomes the work to, seewhat's going on with them but.
nowadays, like as soon as, youknow, whatever, someone flips me
off, I'm like, I don't know whatthis person is dealing with.
Like I don't know.

(56:44):
It's my assertion that if I wasjust to go around, like on, the
block where I live, knock onpeople's doors and be like, tell
me your story.
Like I would just fall in lovewith the world.
You would fall in love with theworld if you heard their stories
they do love

Dusty (56:58):
every single client because of that same thing.

I believe it.
And I'm clear that they have thesame love for you.
Yes.
because that empathy, thatcompassion is fully felt by
every single person that youcome into contact with.

Dusty (57:14):
it's easier to hate from afar.

Ah, brilliantly said.

Dusty (57:19):
Very hard to hate somebody.

And what about love?
What's the flip side of that?

Dusty (57:25):
Well, I don't, I don't know what the flip side is in
terms of love, but I think it'svery difficult to hate close up.

Yeah.
Much easier to love When you'redancing.

Dusty (57:36):
Right.
And you're understanding themovement of the other person.

Yeah.

Dusty (57:41):
That is something that is actually a studied science.
this idea that when we areemotionally in the same place
with one another is a verypowerful relationship to be in
with anybody.
You know, it's why people feelsuch power during musicals and
concerts when everyone isfeeling the same thing, sporting

(58:02):
event for some people, you know,Like yoga practice when you're
in a studio.

Yeah.
It's the energetics because weare in an energetic.
Universe.
It's all energetics.
And, that's when I think youstart to wave your magic wand
when we're tuning into those,call them high vibes, call them
good feels, whatever, call itspinach.

(58:27):
But the difference it makes whenyou're operating from a place,
where you're tuned in to.
The most beautiful, deliciousmusic and how life starts to
occur and show up based on thesignals that you're putting out
there, And I think amazingmystical things.

(58:50):
can start to happen.
like miracles.
And at the same time, it reallyjust started when you started to
feel your own wholeness.
And when you started to enjoyyour own company, and when you
started to feel the magic andthe love that's innately you,

(59:10):
the once in a universe you, andthen yeah, things start to just,
appear that, weren't going tohappen anyway, unless we took
the time to actually look atlike, What is the vibe I'm
putting out there?
what is the music?
What is the vibration?
Because it's being felt.

(59:31):
So thank you for, working withpeople to reconstitute
themselves and heal themselvesso that they can do that, so
that we can all, like,individually, and as a
community, like, your patients,so that they can pour more love
into the world, so that they canpour more of those good vibes,

(59:53):
to themselves and to the peoplein their lives.
And I just think, the fact thatyou work, I guess one on one for
the most part.
it's interesting because I know,it's this idea that like, I want
to save the world.
Like I want to feed everybodyand I want to save the world.
And I'm like, how do we save theplanet?

(01:00:14):
But I really do think that it'sabout like one person.
It's about like, when you savewhen you help, when you love on
one person, that's how youchange the world.
It's one person at a time.
It's just one person at a time.

Dusty (01:00:30):
Yeah, making eye contact, smiling, saying hello to
somebody on the street, you haveno idea what then that person is
going to go do, versus if youhad never made eye contact.
a ripple effect one way or theother.

Robyn Cohen (01:00:43):
And you can't know your legacy, which is why it
makes a difference to start tocurate.
Well, what am I going to leavepeople with?
What am I going to leave themwith?
So I'm so lucky that we get toleave the people, the listeners
with you, Dusty.
This is, so magical.
And, let's do a Sleepover partypodcasting event in California

(01:01:05):
and come over and I will singyou to sleep.
It's, it's gonna happen.
I remember I think it would be,um, there is a castle on a
cloud.
We would sing on my own from LesMiserables.
On my

Dusty (01:01:25):
own.

We didn't even know what we were singing about, like
this woman in a war torncountry, and she's about to be
killed in the French Revolution,and we would just be singing,
and it would just lull us tosleep, you know, but, uh, uh,
thank you.
Thank you so much for this timeand this cyberspace.
how, how can people find you orget into your world or, um, book

(01:01:50):
a session?
a place where people can go tostay in touch?

Dusty (01:01:55):
my work website, I'm only licensed in Maryland, so I
cannot see people out of state,but the.
The work website isMoCoCounseling,
mococounseling.com.
and, and I post daily outfits onRetailRelated RetailRelated, is
the Instagram site.
Yes.
It was my sister and I thatoriginally did a lot of the

(01:02:16):
stuff together, hence the RetailRelated, but I sort of slowly
took over.
because I'm much more of aclothing whore than she is
apparently.
Uh, but yeah, the two places youcan find me Retail Related and
MoCoCounseling.
com.

Amazing.
Well, we will find you there.
I can't wait.
your whole family.
Tanya and I used to go to balletclasses together, Maryland
Ballet.
I'm going to have to have her onthe podcast too at some point.
but, uh, this was just so,yummy.
Thank you, Dusty.
This is like, this is literallylike, it's a dream come true.
To just, you know, to, be withyou, to sit with you and to

(01:02:52):
connect.
And, um, it feels like it's justalways been that way.
It is now, and it will always bewith you.
So thank you for yourfriendship.
I feel like I'm going to hug mycomputer.
I think my computer probablythinks I'm in a relationship
with it.
Cause I'm like, always, like,I'm always hugging my computer.
And I think this AI companion islike, we're in a relationship.

(01:03:14):
Careful.
Right.
Be careful.
I'll take that advice.
Thank you.
Um, okay.
Well, thank you so much.
Such a joy.
You're such a treasure and, um,more to come, more to come.
Thank you.

Dusty (01:03:30):
Okay.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.

Ah, I got

Dusty (01:03:34):
it.

Well, thank you, beloved community, for joining
my childhood bestie Dusty and meon this fascinating dream come
true of a conversation ofreconnection and reunion.
What a healing gift to spendtime in space With the forever
fabulous Dusty Persels.
She's such an amazing spirit.
I'm just knocked back by howimportant and how meaningful

(01:04:00):
childhood friendships are, aswell as by the beauty of
transformation and positiveevolution that can transpire
over time.
So let's keep the energy fromtoday's episode alive and
growing.
If you're enjoying the juicefrom these conversations,
subscribe and leave a review.

(01:04:21):
Turns out reviews, on Applepodcasts, are the golden ticket
to reaching more awesome peoplelike yourself.
to further make the world abetter place for all of us.
Speaking of the magicallydelicious.
my online and in person actingclasses are open and ready for
you to jump in.

(01:04:42):
Tuesdays, you can forge ahead inyour purpose, on purpose,
creating a life you love andmeeting some incredible
collaborative comrades along theway I also work with people one
on one.
Anyone and everyone excited togrow and develop is welcome.
Until next time.
let's keep the good vibesrolling.

(01:05:03):
Let's go and let's flow withcompassion, letting go of our
resistance through breath andgrounding and working with good
therapists.
and remember, roller coasterswere designed to be a total
blast, so let's enjoy the ride.
Much love and cannot wait to seeyou next time.

(01:05:24):
All the best.

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