January 18, 2025 • 13 mins
Welcome to The Deep Dive, where we plunge into the depths of human potential and the mysteries that challenge our understanding of the natural world. In this episode, we explore the controversial and fascinating world of telekinesis. We'll delve into the CIA's FOIA document detailing experiments with the renowned Uri Geller, including insights from physicists at the University of London. Discover the myths and scientific facts behind telekinesis and how it has captured the imagination in popular culture. Finally, we'll examine a scientific study that attempts to quantify telekinetic effects on a spinning mobile in an open environment. Join us as we separate fact from fiction and embark on a journey through the unexplored territories of the mind. Tune in, and let the wonder unfold!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, get ready because today we're gonna die deep
(00:03):
into telekinesis.
Telekinesis.
Yeah, you know, moving stuff with just your mind,
like that classic sci-fi thing.
Right, right.
We've got a really cool mix of sources for this one.
Oh yeah.
We've got some how-to guides.
Interesting.
Some pretty serious scientific articles.
Okay.
And even a declassified government file.
Wow, someone's been doing their research.
(00:25):
That's right.
Yeah.
It seems like someone's really curious about whether
this is all just fantasy or maybe something more.
Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
But the idea of telekinesis has, you know,
it's been around for a while.
It's captured people's imagination.
Yeah.
And speaking of those how-to guides,
we've got this wiki-how article here.
It actually lays out steps for, you know,
(00:46):
for developing telekinesis.
Really?
Yeah.
It's written like it's a real skill you can learn.
Meditation and visualization are like the big things.
Okay.
You know, like really focusing your thoughts
and like connecting with the object's energy.
It even talks about trying to spin a Psy wheel,
which is, I guess, like a little paper pyramid.
(01:06):
I've heard of those.
Yeah.
Or even conjuring up a Psy ball,
which I think is like this ball of energy
you create in your mind.
Right, right.
I mean, it sounds kind of fun
even if it's just using your imagination, you know?
Yeah.
It's got a certain, I don't know, appeal to it, right?
But we should probably bring in a little bit of reality here.
Okay.
(01:27):
So, we're going to talk about the world of physics.
As much as we might want it to be true.
Right.
Scientists have their doubts for a reason.
Yeah.
And it all comes down to some pretty basic laws of,
well, of how the universe works.
Okay.
So, walk me through this.
What kind of laws are we talking about?
That's right.
And how would telekinesis, like if it were real,
(01:47):
how would it mess with physics?
Okay.
Well, let's take the inverse square law, for instance.
Inverse square law.
Yeah, this basically says that the strength of a force
decreases the further away you get from the source,
like gravity or electromagnetism.
Think about a magnet.
Like, it's going to have a much stronger pull
on something right next to it than something a foot away.
(02:08):
That's good.
So, if you were really moving an object with just your mind
from across the room, let's say,
it would mean that force isn't getting weaker with distance
and it should.
Right.
Then there's the second law of thermodynamics.
This one gets a little complicated.
Oh boy.
But basically, things tend to move towards disorder,
(02:29):
like randomness, not the other way around.
Okay.
So, like using your mental energy to move something,
that seems to go against this whole idea of,
you know, natural disorder.
Oh, okay.
So, telekinesis would be like swimming upstream
against some pretty strong currents of physics.
Exactly.
And then you've got the conservation of momentum.
Conservation of momentum.
Which says that the total momentum in a system
(02:52):
has to stay the same.
Right.
So, basically, you know, if you push something forward,
something else has to move backward.
Okay.
But with telekinesis, you wouldn't have that,
that equal and opposite reaction.
I see.
It'd be like, I don't know,
moving a chess piece without touching it,
nothing else on the board would move.
That's actually a really helpful way to think about it.
So, no wonder scientists want, you know,
(03:14):
some real proof before they start rewriting
the physics textbooks.
Right.
And if you look at the Wikipedia article on telekinesis,
you'll find some pretty strong opinions from, you know,
some big name scientists.
Like Richard Feynman, he won a Nobel Prize.
Wow.
He argued that if telekinesis was real,
we'd be seeing it everywhere,
(03:34):
not just in, you know, controlled experiments.
Right.
He said like people would be winning at casinos,
objects would be flying around randomly.
Yeah.
It'd be impossible to miss.
It would be pretty hard to ignore
if my coffee cup suddenly started like dancing
across my desk.
Yeah.
So the idea of telekinesis is really cool.
Definitely.
But the bar for proving it scientifically is super high.
(03:57):
And so far, no one's really cleared it.
So we've got these laws of physics
that like telekinesis seems to break.
But then you've got all these people throughout history
who claim to have these powers.
Right.
Like Yuri Geller.
Oh yeah, the spoon bender.
Yeah.
Or Nina Kulagina.
She was filmed moving stuff on a table without touching it.
(04:17):
I think I've seen that footage.
It's pretty wild.
There's also Stanis O'tompsik.
Stanis O'tompsik.
Yeah.
She levitated objects supposedly.
But with the help of get this,
an entity called Little Stasia.
Little Stasia.
I know, right?
Like straight out of a ghost story.
(04:38):
There's even a photo of her from like 1909
where these scissors are just floating between her hands.
Hmm.
Interesting.
Can't deny.
It's a really captivating story.
Yeah, it really grabs your attention, doesn't it?
It's like our brains are just like wired
to be fascinated by stuff we can't explain.
Totally.
But when you look at these stories,
you know, with a bit more of a scientific eye,
(04:59):
you often find that, well, the impossible actually
has a pretty normal explanation.
Like smoke and mirrors instead of actual mind over matter.
Exactly.
So how have some of these like telekinetic feats been debunked?
Well, take a sleight of hand, for example.
Oh, like magicians.
Yeah.
A good magician can make things look like
they're defying gravity or like they're moving
without being touched.
(05:20):
Magnets, hidden wires, air currents,
like they can all create that illusion of telekinesis.
So it's all tricks.
Well, a lot of it can be.
What about like those famous cases?
Yeah.
Have any of those been debunked?
Oh, absolutely.
Remember James Randy?
The magician and skeptic.
Yeah.
He spent a lot of his career exposing these kinds of hoaxes.
He even offered a million dollars to anyone who could prove
(05:43):
they had paranormal powers under controlled conditions.
Really?
A million dollars.
Yeah.
And no one ever claimed it, which kind of says something.
I guess so.
But now we're getting to a source that I found really,
really interesting, a declassified CIA document
about telekinesis research.
OK, now we're getting into some ex files territory.
(06:03):
I know, right?
So it talks about research they did with Yuri Geller
back in the 70s at some universities.
They had him try to influence a Geiger counter.
A Geiger counter.
Like for radiation.
Yeah.
Or even make part of a crystal disappear.
Yeah.
And some of the stuff they described is pretty crazy.
Like Geller supposedly made the Geiger counter jump
(06:26):
to 500 times the normal background radiation.
That's a lot.
I know.
And get this, the document also says he was bending keys.
Bending keys.
Including, and this is my favorite part, a skeptic's
own keys, like while they were still in his pocket.
That's a pretty wild story.
Right.
But I guess we got to be careful about taking this all
at face value.
(06:47):
Yeah, you're right.
Especially with documents like this.
From that time period when all this research was shrouded
in secrecy, it's really important to understand the context.
OK, so what kind of context are we talking about?
Well, like what were the exact conditions
of these experiments?
What kind of controls were in place
to make sure there wasn't any trickery going on?
Right.
And maybe most importantly, what was the whole point
(07:07):
of this research program?
Good point.
We can't just like assume everything's true.
Exactly.
But it does make you wonder why the CIA of all organizations
would be so interested in telekinesis.
That's true.
It's like this push and pull between what feels possible
intuitively, what science can actually explain.
Yeah, that tension is definitely there.
(07:29):
And speaking of pushing the boundaries of science,
you mentioned some sources that talked about research
using something called a scan flow mobile.
Oh, yeah.
This was so cool.
The name itself sounds like it's from a sci-fi movie.
Right.
But it's basically this really smart way
to figure out if something's actually telekinesis or just
(07:50):
like the air moving things around.
OK, I'm intrigued.
How does it work?
They use this mobile that's super easy to spin.
And they measure the airflow really carefully
and how the mobile moves.
So they're trying to see if the mobile is being
moved by something other than just the air around it.
Exactly.
Clever.
And did they find anything interesting?
Yes.
(08:11):
In some of their experiments, the mobile
was moving way faster than the air around it.
Really?
Yeah.
Like way faster than could be explained
by just normal air currents.
That's fascinating.
Right.
It definitely raises some questions.
Like is this proof of telekinesis?
Well, hold on.
Before we jump to any conclusions,
it's important to remember that this was just a pilot study.
OK.
It was a small scale investigation
(08:32):
to see if this kind of research was even possible.
So while the results are really interesting,
they need to do a lot more research to be sure
and to rule out any other explanations.
It really makes you wonder what else is out there.
You know, like hiding on the edge of what science can explain.
Right.
We found so many cool things in this deep dive.
The how-to guides, the skepticism from scientists,
(08:54):
all those stories, and even the government's interest.
It's a lot.
It is.
What stands out to you from all this?
What gets me is how powerful the human mind is
to believe things, but also to question them.
It's like we want to understand everything around us,
especially the strange stuff.
(09:14):
But at the same time, we also want proof.
We want to test those explanations
and even be open to, well, being wrong.
I like that.
That back and forth between belief and skepticism,
like two sides at the same coin.
But speaking of skepticism, we haven't really
talked about other ways to explain these telekinesis
things, like explanations that don't involve
(09:35):
actually moving things with your mind.
Oh, you mean like alternative explanation?
Yeah.
Well, there's this really interesting thing
called the ideomotor effect that might be important here.
OK, I've heard of that.
But to be honest, I don't really know what it means.
So basically, the ideomotor effect
is how our thoughts and beliefs can
affect what we do physically, often without us realizing it.
(09:58):
Like our subconscious is kind of running the show.
Oh, OK.
Guiding our movements based on what we expect
or what people suggest to us.
So could this explain some of the telekinesis stuff
we've been talking about?
Maybe.
It's worth thinking about.
Like, could people be moving stuff
without knowing it through really small movements?
(10:18):
It's possible.
Think about things like dousing.
Dousing?
Yeah, you know when people use those forklifts sticks
or a pendulum?
Find water.
Exactly.
They think they're using some kind of special power.
Right.
But a lot of scientists think it's actually
this ideomotor effect happening.
Really?
Yeah, really small muscle movements
without the person realizing can make the stick move
(10:40):
or the pendulum swing.
So they're not faking it?
Not necessarily.
But their belief in dousing is making their body react.
Yeah, it's like their mind is tricking their muscles.
Wow.
And you see similar explanations for things like weedy boards
or facilitated communication where someone
helps a person who can't talk by guiding their hand
(11:01):
on a keyboard.
Right, right.
It looks paranormal, but the ideomotor effect
could be the real explanation.
So it's all about the mind.
In a way, yeah.
It shows how powerful the mind is.
It can affect not just our thoughts and feelings,
but our actions and what we experience physically too.
That's pretty mind blowing.
It is.
And it reminds us that even when we think we're in control,
(11:24):
our subconscious could be affecting things
without us even knowing it.
This is where things get really interesting.
Because it's like, how do we know what's real
and what's just our mind messing with us?
Right.
It's a tough question.
Scientists and researchers are still
trying to figure it out.
It's like that balance between what we want to believe
and what we can actually prove.
Exactly.
(11:45):
We need to do really careful experiments,
rule out all the normal explanations,
and then see if we can get the same results again and again.
That makes sense.
But isn't there something exciting about the possibility?
Like the idea that there might be so much more
to the universe than we know.
Absolutely.
That feeling of wonder, of wanting to know more,
(12:05):
is what drives science forward.
It's what makes us keep asking questions,
keep searching for answers, even when they're hard to find.
I like that.
So it sounds like we're ending our telekinesis deep dive
with more questions than answers.
It may be.
But maybe that's OK.
Yeah.
It's about sparking that curiosity, encouraging people
to explore more, and remember that the journey is just
(12:25):
as important as the destination.
I love that.
What a ride this has been.
It has.
We went from those hopeful how-to guides
to the serious world of science, those crazy stories
from the past, and even how our own minds can play tricks on us.
It's a lot to think about.
It is.
What about you?
What's the biggest takeaway for you from all this?
I think it's that even weird ideas like telekinesis
(12:48):
can help us understand things better.
Yeah.
By looking at the science, the history, and the psychology,
we get a better picture of how complex the human mind is,
and how vast the universe is.
I couldn't agree more.
And to everyone listening, if this has gotten you curious,
go explore.
Learn more about the ideomotor effect.
Check out some of the research we talked about.
Maybe even try spinning a side wheel yourself.
(13:09):
You never know what you might find.
Until next time, keep your minds open
and keep those questions coming.
All right, get ready because today we're gonna die deep
(00:03):
into telekinesis.
Telekinesis.
Yeah, you know, moving stuff with just your mind,
like that classic sci-fi thing.
Right, right.
We've got a really cool mix of sources for this one.
Oh yeah.
We've got some how-to guides.
Interesting.
Some pretty serious scientific articles.
Okay.
And even a declassified government file.
Wow, someone's been doing their research.
(00:25):
That's right.
Yeah.
It seems like someone's really curious about whether
this is all just fantasy or maybe something more.
Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
But the idea of telekinesis has, you know,
it's been around for a while.
It's captured people's imagination.
Yeah.
And speaking of those how-to guides,
we've got this wiki-how article here.
It actually lays out steps for, you know,
(00:46):
for developing telekinesis.
Really?
Yeah.
It's written like it's a real skill you can learn.
Meditation and visualization are like the big things.
Okay.
You know, like really focusing your thoughts
and like connecting with the object's energy.
It even talks about trying to spin a Psy wheel,
which is, I guess, like a little paper pyramid.
(01:06):
I've heard of those.
Yeah.
Or even conjuring up a Psy ball,
which I think is like this ball of energy
you create in your mind.
Right, right.
I mean, it sounds kind of fun
even if it's just using your imagination, you know?
Yeah.
It's got a certain, I don't know, appeal to it, right?
But we should probably bring in a little bit of reality here.
Okay.
(01:27):
So, we're going to talk about the world of physics.
As much as we might want it to be true.
Right.
Scientists have their doubts for a reason.
Yeah.
And it all comes down to some pretty basic laws of,
well, of how the universe works.
Okay.
So, walk me through this.
What kind of laws are we talking about?
That's right.
And how would telekinesis, like if it were real,
(01:47):
how would it mess with physics?
Okay.
Well, let's take the inverse square law, for instance.
Inverse square law.
Yeah, this basically says that the strength of a force
decreases the further away you get from the source,
like gravity or electromagnetism.
Think about a magnet.
Like, it's going to have a much stronger pull
on something right next to it than something a foot away.
(02:08):
That's good.
So, if you were really moving an object with just your mind
from across the room, let's say,
it would mean that force isn't getting weaker with distance
and it should.
Right.
Then there's the second law of thermodynamics.
This one gets a little complicated.
Oh boy.
But basically, things tend to move towards disorder,
(02:29):
like randomness, not the other way around.
Okay.
So, like using your mental energy to move something,
that seems to go against this whole idea of,
you know, natural disorder.
Oh, okay.
So, telekinesis would be like swimming upstream
against some pretty strong currents of physics.
Exactly.
And then you've got the conservation of momentum.
Conservation of momentum.
Which says that the total momentum in a system
(02:52):
has to stay the same.
Right.
So, basically, you know, if you push something forward,
something else has to move backward.
Okay.
But with telekinesis, you wouldn't have that,
that equal and opposite reaction.
I see.
It'd be like, I don't know,
moving a chess piece without touching it,
nothing else on the board would move.
That's actually a really helpful way to think about it.
So, no wonder scientists want, you know,
(03:14):
some real proof before they start rewriting
the physics textbooks.
Right.
And if you look at the Wikipedia article on telekinesis,
you'll find some pretty strong opinions from, you know,
some big name scientists.
Like Richard Feynman, he won a Nobel Prize.
Wow.
He argued that if telekinesis was real,
we'd be seeing it everywhere,
(03:34):
not just in, you know, controlled experiments.
Right.
He said like people would be winning at casinos,
objects would be flying around randomly.
Yeah.
It'd be impossible to miss.
It would be pretty hard to ignore
if my coffee cup suddenly started like dancing
across my desk.
Yeah.
So the idea of telekinesis is really cool.
Definitely.
But the bar for proving it scientifically is super high.
(03:57):
And so far, no one's really cleared it.
So we've got these laws of physics
that like telekinesis seems to break.
But then you've got all these people throughout history
who claim to have these powers.
Right.
Like Yuri Geller.
Oh yeah, the spoon bender.
Yeah.
Or Nina Kulagina.
She was filmed moving stuff on a table without touching it.
(04:17):
I think I've seen that footage.
It's pretty wild.
There's also Stanis O'tompsik.
Stanis O'tompsik.
Yeah.
She levitated objects supposedly.
But with the help of get this,
an entity called Little Stasia.
Little Stasia.
I know, right?
Like straight out of a ghost story.
(04:38):
There's even a photo of her from like 1909
where these scissors are just floating between her hands.
Hmm.
Interesting.
Can't deny.
It's a really captivating story.
Yeah, it really grabs your attention, doesn't it?
It's like our brains are just like wired
to be fascinated by stuff we can't explain.
Totally.
But when you look at these stories,
you know, with a bit more of a scientific eye,
(04:59):
you often find that, well, the impossible actually
has a pretty normal explanation.
Like smoke and mirrors instead of actual mind over matter.
Exactly.
So how have some of these like telekinetic feats been debunked?
Well, take a sleight of hand, for example.
Oh, like magicians.
Yeah.
A good magician can make things look like
they're defying gravity or like they're moving
without being touched.
(05:20):
Magnets, hidden wires, air currents,
like they can all create that illusion of telekinesis.
So it's all tricks.
Well, a lot of it can be.
What about like those famous cases?
Yeah.
Have any of those been debunked?
Oh, absolutely.
Remember James Randy?
The magician and skeptic.
Yeah.
He spent a lot of his career exposing these kinds of hoaxes.
He even offered a million dollars to anyone who could prove
(05:43):
they had paranormal powers under controlled conditions.
Really?
A million dollars.
Yeah.
And no one ever claimed it, which kind of says something.
I guess so.
But now we're getting to a source that I found really,
really interesting, a declassified CIA document
about telekinesis research.
OK, now we're getting into some ex files territory.
(06:03):
I know, right?
So it talks about research they did with Yuri Geller
back in the 70s at some universities.
They had him try to influence a Geiger counter.
A Geiger counter.
Like for radiation.
Yeah.
Or even make part of a crystal disappear.
Yeah.
And some of the stuff they described is pretty crazy.
Like Geller supposedly made the Geiger counter jump
(06:26):
to 500 times the normal background radiation.
That's a lot.
I know.
And get this, the document also says he was bending keys.
Bending keys.
Including, and this is my favorite part, a skeptic's
own keys, like while they were still in his pocket.
That's a pretty wild story.
Right.
But I guess we got to be careful about taking this all
at face value.
(06:47):
Yeah, you're right.
Especially with documents like this.
From that time period when all this research was shrouded
in secrecy, it's really important to understand the context.
OK, so what kind of context are we talking about?
Well, like what were the exact conditions
of these experiments?
What kind of controls were in place
to make sure there wasn't any trickery going on?
Right.
And maybe most importantly, what was the whole point
(07:07):
of this research program?
Good point.
We can't just like assume everything's true.
Exactly.
But it does make you wonder why the CIA of all organizations
would be so interested in telekinesis.
That's true.
It's like this push and pull between what feels possible
intuitively, what science can actually explain.
Yeah, that tension is definitely there.
(07:29):
And speaking of pushing the boundaries of science,
you mentioned some sources that talked about research
using something called a scan flow mobile.
Oh, yeah.
This was so cool.
The name itself sounds like it's from a sci-fi movie.
Right.
But it's basically this really smart way
to figure out if something's actually telekinesis or just
(07:50):
like the air moving things around.
OK, I'm intrigued.
How does it work?
They use this mobile that's super easy to spin.
And they measure the airflow really carefully
and how the mobile moves.
So they're trying to see if the mobile is being
moved by something other than just the air around it.
Exactly.
Clever.
And did they find anything interesting?
Yes.
(08:11):
In some of their experiments, the mobile
was moving way faster than the air around it.
Really?
Yeah.
Like way faster than could be explained
by just normal air currents.
That's fascinating.
Right.
It definitely raises some questions.
Like is this proof of telekinesis?
Well, hold on.
Before we jump to any conclusions,
it's important to remember that this was just a pilot study.
OK.
It was a small scale investigation
(08:32):
to see if this kind of research was even possible.
So while the results are really interesting,
they need to do a lot more research to be sure
and to rule out any other explanations.
It really makes you wonder what else is out there.
You know, like hiding on the edge of what science can explain.
Right.
We found so many cool things in this deep dive.
The how-to guides, the skepticism from scientists,
(08:54):
all those stories, and even the government's interest.
It's a lot.
It is.
What stands out to you from all this?
What gets me is how powerful the human mind is
to believe things, but also to question them.
It's like we want to understand everything around us,
especially the strange stuff.
(09:14):
But at the same time, we also want proof.
We want to test those explanations
and even be open to, well, being wrong.
I like that.
That back and forth between belief and skepticism,
like two sides at the same coin.
But speaking of skepticism, we haven't really
talked about other ways to explain these telekinesis
things, like explanations that don't involve
(09:35):
actually moving things with your mind.
Oh, you mean like alternative explanation?
Yeah.
Well, there's this really interesting thing
called the ideomotor effect that might be important here.
OK, I've heard of that.
But to be honest, I don't really know what it means.
So basically, the ideomotor effect
is how our thoughts and beliefs can
affect what we do physically, often without us realizing it.
(09:58):
Like our subconscious is kind of running the show.
Oh, OK.
Guiding our movements based on what we expect
or what people suggest to us.
So could this explain some of the telekinesis stuff
we've been talking about?
Maybe.
It's worth thinking about.
Like, could people be moving stuff
without knowing it through really small movements?
(10:18):
It's possible.
Think about things like dousing.
Dousing?
Yeah, you know when people use those forklifts sticks
or a pendulum?
Find water.
Exactly.
They think they're using some kind of special power.
Right.
But a lot of scientists think it's actually
this ideomotor effect happening.
Really?
Yeah, really small muscle movements
without the person realizing can make the stick move
(10:40):
or the pendulum swing.
So they're not faking it?
Not necessarily.
But their belief in dousing is making their body react.
Yeah, it's like their mind is tricking their muscles.
Wow.
And you see similar explanations for things like weedy boards
or facilitated communication where someone
helps a person who can't talk by guiding their hand
(11:01):
on a keyboard.
Right, right.
It looks paranormal, but the ideomotor effect
could be the real explanation.
So it's all about the mind.
In a way, yeah.
It shows how powerful the mind is.
It can affect not just our thoughts and feelings,
but our actions and what we experience physically too.
That's pretty mind blowing.
It is.
And it reminds us that even when we think we're in control,
(11:24):
our subconscious could be affecting things
without us even knowing it.
This is where things get really interesting.
Because it's like, how do we know what's real
and what's just our mind messing with us?
Right.
It's a tough question.
Scientists and researchers are still
trying to figure it out.
It's like that balance between what we want to believe
and what we can actually prove.
Exactly.
(11:45):
We need to do really careful experiments,
rule out all the normal explanations,
and then see if we can get the same results again and again.
That makes sense.
But isn't there something exciting about the possibility?
Like the idea that there might be so much more
to the universe than we know.
Absolutely.
That feeling of wonder, of wanting to know more,
(12:05):
is what drives science forward.
It's what makes us keep asking questions,
keep searching for answers, even when they're hard to find.
I like that.
So it sounds like we're ending our telekinesis deep dive
with more questions than answers.
It may be.
But maybe that's OK.
Yeah.
It's about sparking that curiosity, encouraging people
to explore more, and remember that the journey is just
(12:25):
as important as the destination.
I love that.
What a ride this has been.
It has.
We went from those hopeful how-to guides
to the serious world of science, those crazy stories
from the past, and even how our own minds can play tricks on us.
It's a lot to think about.
It is.
What about you?
What's the biggest takeaway for you from all this?
I think it's that even weird ideas like telekinesis
(12:48):
can help us understand things better.
Yeah.
By looking at the science, the history, and the psychology,
we get a better picture of how complex the human mind is,
and how vast the universe is.
I couldn't agree more.
And to everyone listening, if this has gotten you curious,
go explore.
Learn more about the ideomotor effect.
Check out some of the research we talked about.
Maybe even try spinning a side wheel yourself.
(13:09):
You never know what you might find.
Until next time, keep your minds open
and keep those questions coming.
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