November 10, 2024 • 43 mins
Join Dave Smith, a former major in the Canadian Armed Forces, fighting alongside Belarusian Partisans for Ukraine. From the intense battlegrounds North of Kharkiv to the life-saving professional efforts within its hospitals, Dave offers a raw and authentic soldier's viewpoint of what it is to fight up close on the line of engagement - the Zero Line.
The conversation sheds light on the grim realities of capturing Russian conscripts and subsequent efforts at prisoner exchanges, exploring the stark differences in how Ukrainian and Russian forces handle detainees. Dave provides insights on how compromised platforms like Telegram play a crucial role in the information war. He offers a fascinating look at the North Atlantic Fella Organization (NAFO), an internet meme movement that supports Ukraine. Dave's candid reflections, paint a vivid picture of the way in which humor enables both young and old to cope with the stresses of war.
J. Alex Tarquinio and Frank Radford, our hosts in The Delegates Lounge, spoke from New York, while Dave spoke from Ukraine via web conference. Part 1 of this conversation began in July with Dave's account of his journey and his insights into the war up until that point. This took place before his regiment was deployed to fight North of Kharkiv. For Part 2, we spoke with Dave in October, after intense combat with Russian conscripts on the Zero Line and his recent stay in a hospital in Kharkiv. He also described how soldiers use social media on the frontlines. As he relates his battlefield experiences, listeners will catch a rare glimpse into how international policies directly impact those on the front lines.
References:
Alex mentioned an essay that she wrote for Foreign Policy about soft power which included the NAFO fellas Internet meme.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/06/russia-ukraine-soft-power-culture-diplomacy-fellas-nafo/
Dave related a story about standing in a trench and watching a video of that same position being hit two days earlier in a social media video. He graciously shared a video of that experience with us, and here are the links on Instagram and X.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DCKDdJLJql4/
https://x.com/alextarquinio/status/1855287497288266063
Dave joined the Kastuś Kalinoŭski Regiment of Belarusian volunteers fighting in support of Ukraine.
Credits:
Music: Adobe Stock
Photo: Dave Smith
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J. Alex Tarquinio (00:08):
Welcome to the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Welcome back to the second partof our extended interview with
(00:41):
Dave Smith, a former major inthe Canadian Armed Forces who
resigned to fight for Ukraine ina battalion of foreign fighters
, primarily from Belarus, knownas the Kalinowski Regiment.
We introduced you to Dave inpart one, which you can find in
our playlist For that episode.
We spoke with him in July whenhe was rotating back into the
(01:03):
battle for eastern Ukraine thissummer.
He talked with us again inOctober and gave a first-hand
account from the Zero Line, orthe point of contact between the
Ukrainian and Russian forces innorthern Kharkiv, very close to
where Ukrainian troops tookRussian territory in Kursk.
That was before someconsequential geopolitical
developments Confirmation thatNorth Korean troops have come to
(01:26):
fight Ukrainians for Russia andTrump's political comeback.
So although we originallyplanned to finish with the
second episode about Dave'simpression after the battle, we
now plan to publish a thirdepisode that focuses more on the
battlefield developments andbrings listeners up to date.
In this episode, dave focuses onthe human aspects of warfare.
(01:50):
He spent some time in hospitalin Kharkiv and relates what life
is like for the doctors, nursesand patients in, as he calls it
, the last stop before Mordor.
He talks about the treatment ofPOWs and conscripts on both
sides and he explains how socialmedia is used at the front.
He described watching a videoof the trench that he was in
(02:13):
being hit by Russians two daysearlier on the social media app
Telegram.
He graciously shared that videowith us and we added that to
our Instagram and X accounts.
We'll share those links withyou in the show notes.
Also in the show notes you'llfind a link to an essay that I
wrote for Foreign Policy aboutsoft power that mentions the
(02:33):
North Atlantic Fela Organization, an internet meme that bases
its name on NATO.
They call themselves Felas andidentify their accounts with
cartoon avatars of Shiba Inu,dogs or, occasionally, cats.
Dave sheds light on how theNAFO fellas are viewed on the
front lines.
So, without further ado, here'sDave.
(02:54):
Dave, we're so glad to be ableto hear that you are safe and to
be able to speak with you againat the end of your latest tour
on the eastern front of Ukraineand hear how things are going.
Dave Smith (03:14):
Thank you so much.
I'm honored to be on.
Frank Radford (03:19):
It's awesome that you've deigned to be on our our
program, considering whatyou've been through.
Dave Smith (03:26):
okay, I'm just, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna stop
it right there because you'remaking me blush here, uh.
But as long as we're, uh,having the mutual appreciation
society right now, I will tellyou, you guys are the only ones
that have, like really reachedout and consistently asked me
(03:46):
for my thoughts and observationsof what's going on here.
So credit to the DelegatesLounge for, you know, trying to
get to the truth of what'sactually happening on the
battlefield and what all ofthese big picture, you know,
geopolitical developments meanfor the guys that are actually
(04:07):
fighting on the front.
Wars are not won on thebattlefield, they're won in the
information environment.
And just the fact that you sawthis time to have a podcast like
this where you talk about theseissues, like it is super
important.
It's just as important asrunning around like an idiot in
(04:28):
the woods and getting blown up.
Frank Radford (04:30):
No it's not.
Dave Smith (04:32):
If I could have explained this to my chain of
command back in the Canadianmilitary or, more importantly,
the Minister of Defense and thepoliticians, if they listened, I
wouldn't be here.
I would be doing that work.
But after the first year of thewar where I was deployed,
working with the Ukrainians andtrying to just plead with the
(04:53):
decision makers in Ottawa, DC,London, guys, we got to take
this seriously.
After a year of it I just gaveup.
I was like you know what?
I'll go around, run around inthe woods.
Maybe I can do more good thatway.
J. Alex Tarquinio (05:06):
We know that you were in hospital.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how you were injured and
in the hospital this tour.
Dave Smith (05:12):
It was not a horrible injury.
I actually had complete impostersyndrome because I was in the
hospital room with fiveUkrainians who were like
legitimately injured, and I wasjust lying there, you know,
getting monitored for aconcussion.
So I don't want to make it soundlike it was super serious, but
what happened was imagine thatyou know a big long tree line
(05:35):
that is running kind ofnorth-south and it's about a
kilometer wide.
I was on the far east side ofit when there was some M113s
doing casualty evacuations allday, because we were taking a
lot of casualties that day andall that happened was that the
M113 was like racing in, racingout.
There was one with a Ukrainiandriver, one with a Belarusian
(05:58):
driver and these guys are likeabsolute unsung heroes of the
war.
Anyone that is an M113 driverin eastern Ukraine is just crazy
Like they're crazy and heroic,and they were racing up and down
the side of the tree line thatI was on taking out injured guys
, and the Russians, you know,after they made a few trips,
(06:20):
were just like pummeling thattrack that they were on with.
Uh, I believe it was artilleryrounds and they were just hoping
to either disrupt the the m113s, maybe hit an m113 maybe injure
people getting in and out andfor our listeners.
J. Alex Tarquinio (06:36):
Can you define an m113?
Dave Smith (06:38):
sorry, it's a.
Sorry, I was just saying itbecause you guys are Americans.
It's a.
It's an American armoredvehicle that was donated to
Ukraine.
It's generally, I think, forevacuations they use them for
all kinds of things.
Where I was that particular day, they had two of them that were
being used for medicalevacuations because we had we,
(06:59):
we were taking casualties.
Yeah, they, like these guyswere just, you know, like these
drivers or as soon as someonewas injured at the, at the zero
line where I was, a vehicleshowed up within minutes and
they were getting these guys outof here.
So I really want to make thestory kind of about them and
what they were doing.
I just happened to be on theside of the tree line where the
(07:22):
Russians were bombing them andwe were in like little slit
trenches me and one of myBelarusian comrades and a round
landed like right outside of itand I was actually in the trench
.
I was lying down.
It was like we call them shellscrapes.
It's like maybe a couple feetdeep.
It's not like a trench system,it's more like a little fighting
trench, and we knew the roundswere coming.
(07:45):
It had been happening all dayand one landed.
It was extremely close becauseit rolled me out, like the force
of it rolled my body over andthey classified it as a shrapnel
wound, but I didn't actuallyget hit by any shrapnel from the
round.
What happened was there werethese little trees in between
(08:05):
each of the trenches that wereactually holding up the overhead
, uh, cover that I was talkingabout, and those trees exploded
from the force of the, of theblast, and a whole bunch of uh
you know wood chunks just flewat me so I basically got like
giant splinters in my neck and
J. Alex Tarquinio (08:23):
But it is classified as a shrapnel wound
to the neck
Dave Smith (08:27):
yeah, yeah but don't tell my mom, I haven't, I
haven't used those words, uh, tomy mom or my wife or anybody.
yeah, that's like how theyclassify, but
anything to the neck ispotentially life-threatening, so
it was potentially verydangerous and it sounds like the
kind of wound you were lucky towalk away from.
(08:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I did literally walk awayfrom it, Because what happened
was after that round landed.
You know my my fire teampartner and I were like Okay, we
can't stay here.
This is obviously untenable.
So he was looking at me and Iwas like Dude, am I bleeding?
And he's like, yeah, man, Ithink under your beard you're
bleeding.
So I actually walked myselfback about 300 meters.
There was a medic behind us.
She's a Ukrainian medic that iswith one of the units that we
(09:12):
were working with.
She's very identifiable, shehas blue hair and a bunch of
tattoos.
And I can't believe how closeshe had her casualty collection
point to where we were, becauseliterally we packed our stuff up
and walked not even like noteven 300 meters behind us, uh,
(09:34):
and to the ukrainian controlpoint where they were running
their show, and she was standingright there and she saw that
you know, I was holding my neckand there was blood coming down
my glove and, uh, she justimmediately threw me into the
trench, uh, and started doing awhole assessment and then, in
(09:56):
true like, uh I don't know howmuch you guys have talked to
ukrainians, especially ukrainianwomen.
They don't tend to overreact tostuff.
So she, basically it was justlike, yeah, it's an injury, you
got shrapnel in your neck butyou're probably going to be fine
.
Uh, just take your gear off.
And so she did the wholeinspection on me and then was
(10:18):
like, okay, be honest, do youneed to be evacuated right now
because these m113s are drawinga lot of fire?
And I was like, no, I canprobably wait till tomorrow.
I'm okay, because it wasnighttime at this point.
So they just kept me thereuntil the next morning.
And then at like five or six amthe next morning, we walked to
uh, a safer route out of the, uh, the zero line, because I'm in
(10:42):
a belarus in a unit.
Our own medics picked me up andI was in an ambulance and they
did it was like being in anactual ambulance with paramedics
who did like a full assessment,everything on the road.
And then I got to the hospitalin Kharkiv and then I chilled
there for a week and the doctoryour doctors, because I saw a
whole bunch of them they weren'treally panicking about my
(11:02):
injury at all.
They did one real assessmentand sent me for some diagnostics
.
They were mostly concernedabout concussions because we've
had so many we, the whole forcehere, the foreigners, the
Ukrainians, everybody.
We've had a lot of incidentsthis summer where guys were
(11:23):
coming back from these blastinjuries.
But the thing about blastinjuries is like we have so much
, like our gear is so good now,like our helmets are level four,
our ear pro are even the, thestraps on your helmet,
everything like protect you fromstuff that they're looking at
dudes and being like hey, hisinjuries aren't actually that
(11:45):
bad and he seems to be okay.
You just gave him a week off,he'd recover and everything.
But then they have like delayedconcussion syndromes you know I
mean so from what you'redescribing with the gear.
The neck is probably one of thefew vulnerable yeah, there are
guys wearing neck protection too, like if they know they're
going to be in an area where youwere not.
J. Alex Tarquinio (12:06):
Why were you not wearing neck protection?
Dave Smith (12:08):
You can only wear so much kevlar, right, like
eventually you're so heavy youcan't move.
Drivers are a perfect example,right, who are wearing more
protection on their arms, legs,neck, uh, face guards and stuff
like that, and they know they'remore exposed to those kind of
wounds.
I'm out like running around inthe woods, so every ounce of
kevlar that you put on you meansyou're moving slower and then
(12:30):
the drones find you faster.
I would say my, the, the, mygear really did protect me quite
a bit like I had my helmet andear pro on, and even I wish I
had taken a picture of it hadn'toccurred to me at the time.
But there was little.
There was even little splinter,you know, pieces of wood
sticking out of the chin strapof my helmet, blocking stuff
(12:53):
from penetrating my
J. Alex Tarquinio (12:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Frank Radford (13:12):
Dave, presumably you understood the mission and
what your purpose was.
You're defending, presumably, atree line.
Dave Smith (13:19):
Sorry, I should clarify number one we weren't
defending we were on theoffensive for that one.
I know to the average personthat doesn't mean much, but it's
dramatically different.
Like offensive is way harder.
Like Klausowitz said, defenseis the stronger form of warfare
and I agree with that guybecause offense sucks.
So that's why that particularsituation was so dangerous.
What I would say is wedefinitely were taking it to
(13:44):
them and they felt it.
And I should contextualize alittle bit.
It was about a month after Kurskstarted and in that time the
Russians were really panicking.
Where we were, we were theportion of the front closest to
Kursk, obviously north ofKharkiv.
We took a whole schwack ofprisoners this summer and
(14:12):
captured a bunch of radios andwe were listening to them freak
out after Kursk started.
Every week that went by youcould tell the Russian chain of
command was really putting thepressure on them to take back
territory from us that we hadtaken right Because we were
having a pretty successfulsummer.
We took huge swaths of thisparticular wooded area, so they
were quite panicky.
Frank Radford (14:33):
Was your unit identified by them.
Dave Smith (14:35):
I'm sure we're identified.
I'm sure they know who we are.
Everybody knows everybody onceyou're at the front.
We know which Russian units arethere and they know who it is
they're fighting against.
J. Alex Tarquinio (14:49):
So the doctors and nurses?
Do they seem just pureprofessionalism?
Do they seem a little burnt outat this stage of the war?
Have most of them been therefor the last two and a half
years?
Dave Smith (15:04):
No, it was very professional.
I do think they're resourcestrapped.
You definitely feel likethey're doing what they can with
what they got.
There's not a lot of amenitiesin the hospital.
You know what I mean.
You would have to hunt aroundto find a washroom with toilet
paper and soap and stuff likethat.
(15:26):
So first of all, I will say thelevel of care is really
impressive, like when I, if youshow up and you're an injured
soldier coming from the front, Ihad MRIs, fmri, every scan.
They really do take care of theguys that are coming from the
front.
But I did kind of feel like ifyou were to go open like the
(15:47):
storage rooms and whatever, Idon't think they're like
bursting with resources because,like kharkiv is is it's the
last stop before mordor.
You get to kharkiv, it's likethe last outpost of civilization
.
After that it's fighting.
So you're in like the last realhospitals, like the, like these
hospitals were real hospitalsbefore the war.
(16:08):
The staff I definitely got theimpression like all the doctors,
nurses, everybody worked there.
It's obvious that they've beenthere the whole time.
Like you can you can even justtell, by the way they, the way
they talk, that like day-to-daylike they, they see a soldier
with third-degree burns onone-third of his body and
they're like, yeah, this ispretty normal.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:29):
And you mentioned this was a hospital
before the full-scale war.
No, no, no, it's just astraight-up.
Dave Smith (16:36):
The first I went to the Kharkiv Regional Hospital,
which is like in the downtown,in the middle of the city.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:42):
And that's with civilians, you mean.
Dave Smith (16:44):
They like in the downtown in the middle of the
city and that's with civilians.
You mean, they're both.
I was.
Neither of them was a militaryhospital now.
Granted, it's mostly militarydudes walking around with
serious injuries, but it's thereal hospital you would go to if
you phone 9-1-1.
And then they sent me to ahospital, had more specialists
it's where they had the machine,the one where they monitor
everybody for concussions and myhead doctor I don't know what
(17:08):
you call them.
I'm sorry, but the guy thatworries about concussions, he
spoke perfect English.
He was clearly an expert in hisfield.
He could tell that I was likehey, yeah, I got blown up and we
had six other dudes evacuatedthat day for injuries.
But I think I'm okay, and he'slike okay, I think you're okay
(17:28):
too.
But every time somebody sayssomebody, they're okay, and then
five days later they fallasleep at the wheel and get a
car accident because they had aconcussion and we didn't
diagnose it correctly, I get introuble.
So you're staying here for aweek.
So I stayed there for a week.
J. Alex Tarquinio (17:48):
Can you describe just a little bit more
about the people you met inhospital?
So you said you were beingobserved for about a week, and
who did you meet during thatweek and what kinds of injuries
did you see there?
Dave Smith (17:56):
So the dude in the bed right across from me had
like third degree burns onprobably about like 20 or 30% of
his body.
J. Alex Tarquinio (18:04):
How did he get those?
Do you know?
Dave Smith (18:06):
I'm not really sure.
He did not speak a word ofEnglish.
Well, for the first couple ofdays we didn't talk at all.
He was just lying there in abig pile of pain and then over
time he got a lot better.
People were coming and going.
There was another guy from oneof the more elite units in the
(18:28):
Ukrainian special forces worldwho I had worked with his unit
in the past and when he foundout that I was in the Legion you
know Gore Legion he like made adeliberate effort to take his
phone out and we tried to GoogleTranslate some conversations at
least once or twice a day.
He had just come fromChasseviard and I don't know if
(18:50):
you guys have been trackingwhat's going on in Chasseviard
all summer, but that is theworst fight.
It's like the way Bachmut was ayear and a half ago.
It is just just absolutenightmare.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:06):
And he Is, he able to share anything with
doing.
via Google Translate on whathe's doing.
Dave Smith (19:13):
We talked quite a bit.
And then you got to rememberyou're in a hospital, not
everybody is feelingconversational.
The nurse would come in andthat would kind of rile
everybody up and there would bea lot of conversations that I
didn't understand, because youknow, everybody wants to talk
about food or medicine orsomething and then they all
start changing stories orwhatever.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:31):
Um, what language were they mostly?
I don't know if you could tellthe difference, but where
they're mostly speakingUkrainian, russian, uh it's kind
of a mixture of languages.
Dave Smith (19:39):
I would definitely say the hospital staff who are
older generally speak Russian orSergik, which is like a Sergik,
it's like a pidgin language.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:51):
It's a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian
.
Dave Smith (19:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The thing about language andnavigating these kind of like
Byzantine institutions whenyou're an English speaker it's
not like it's new to anybodyelse, right?
There's a lot of foreignfighters walking around.
There's Chechens, georgians,russians, like there's a lot of
Russian fighters here, andthere's a lot of Westerners from
(20:15):
many different countries andlanguages.
So if you show up and you speakFrench or Italian or Spanish or
something, it's not like it isa huge stumbling block to the
nurses, to the average person.
If you said, hey, you gotconcussed in a foreign country
where you don't speak thelanguage.
It's a fairly frighteningexperience to go into a hospital
like that.
But I would say here you'rejust another one that doesn't
(20:40):
speak the language, another onethat doesn't speak the language.
The younger Ukrainians canreally switch back and forth
between Russian and Ukrainianquite easily.
It's noticeable too.
I've listened to so much of it.
You can tell when they're doingone or the other.
The further west you go, themore the language becomes a part
(21:01):
of Ukrainian identity.
A good friend of mine is astand-up comedian.
He's Belarusian in my unit, buthe was a stand-up comedian
before the war and he said hecould not get work in Kyiv
because his Ukrainian justwasn't good enough and they
didn't want to hear him speakingRussian.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:23):
I'm wondering what you're hearing about
videos circulating, and some ofthem.
It's difficult for us,certainly sitting here in New
York, to gauge the accuracybecause so much of it is
circulating in online media,allegedly depicting Russians
hunting civilians in Kherson.
It's being dubbed as almostsafari style.
(21:44):
There have been a few videoscirculating, I think, on
Telegram.
Dave Smith (21:49):
I mean, yeah, I've heard that it's happening, but
mostly just through the news aswell.
Like, are they huntingcivilians in Kherson?
I wouldn't put it past them.
I wouldn't put it past them.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:01):
Another thing is the videos of captured
Ukrainian POWs being killed, youknow, after being disarmed.
What are you hearing there ineastern Ukraine?
Dave Smith (22:14):
Murdering Ukrainian POWs.
Yeah, I'm sure that's happening.
I'm sure it's happened insectors of the front that I was
on.
I know guys, ukrainian dudes intheir units, who have just
straight up said that thathappened.
Their colleagues got capturedand were murdered, and they know
because they tried to arrange aprisoner exchange to get them
back and the russians were likenah, they're dead, you're not
(22:36):
gonna get those guys, we gotother guys but, those guys are
dead, um, but I would say theUkrainians treat the detainees
that they take very well, for abunch of reasons.
Number one they are a hugesource of intelligence.
Like I can't tell you how muchinformation we get from
(22:57):
actionable stuff that we useright away.
Number two they really do wantto exchange them back for their
own guys.
Right, so they don't.
I don't want to say they treatthem nicely or whatever, but
like I've definitely seen, likethey on the line, they question
them right away, they have awhole process to take them off
the line, they give them medicalattention right away, they give
(23:19):
them tea, they give them food,they make sure like they're
they're not freaking out andthey're like, hey, we're not
going to torture you, we're notgoing to kill you.
Like we you know what I meanLike we're going to treat you
well because we really, reallythey call it the exchange fund,
like on the radio they actuallysay, hey, we got two more for
the exchange fund, cause theyreally do want to exchange them
back for their own guys.
(23:40):
And I would like to think, basedon the amount of these prisoner
exchanges that go on, I don'tthink the Russians are as
hospitable as the Ukrainians,but I do think they have a
strong deterrent to murder POWsand I do think the crazy,
(24:02):
bloodthirsty, horrible peoplethat did shit like Bucha and,
you know, wagner with thesledgehammers a lot of them are
dead right, like we've killed alot of those guys, like the
really generally the morehorrific, psychopathic dudes
they're not actually goodfighters Like we they're.
A lot of them are dead.
So I think you have a lot morerational calculators at the
(24:23):
tactical level who are like weneed our troops back just for
pragmatic purposes, like wecan't send these meat waves out
if they keep getting captured.
So I do think the exchange fundnot to say that it makes the
Russians more humane or whateverbut I do think it makes them a
lot more calculating aboutpreserving human life.
And you know, and I've met, youknow I've met Ukrainians that
(24:45):
were in captivity, like I've metguys that were captured for
months and then, you know,exchanged back and they're and
they're still in the militaryfighting.
So I think there's a whole worldof that stuff that we don't
hear about in the news,westerners know nothing about,
because when those negotiationsgo on, man, it's like literally
a Ukrainian talking to a Russianon a radio at the that we don't
hear about in the news,westerners know nothing about,
because when those negotiationsgo on, man, it's like literally
(25:08):
a Ukrainian talking to a Russianon a radio at the front where
they're like, hey, we got 17dudes, how many you got?
They organize an exchange point, they secure the roads and
everything and they go do adrop-off.
So, the goal is to exchange themas quickly as possible.
No, I wouldn't say it's quickly.
I mean I don't know, I'm notsure how it works, but it's not
always quick, Like some of thesedudes are in captivity for
(25:31):
weeks or months, because I thinkthere's like a lot of.
When I say negotiation, I meanit's like a pressure cooker of a
negotiation.
J. Alex Tarquinio (25:40):
Right, it sounded casual on a video but
yeah Now, but getting back tothese videos, I mean they're
obviously horrible videos andimages of allegedly of POWs
who've either been killed orstarved and they circulate on
telegram channels.
We can't gauge the accuracy.
Does this impact morale on thebattlefield?
(26:06):
It really, really impacts theUkrainian morale when guys get
captured.
I would actually say it impactsit more than when they get
killed.
When dudes get detained,because for someone to get
detained they have to be severedfrom their unit right, which
means either people fell backwhen they shouldn't have fallen
back or a position got overrunor something.
(26:28):
Uh, so like it is absolutelyhorrible and the unit you know
I've been attached to units thatlost guys in the sector that we
were at and like their missionin life is not to win the war,
their mission in life is to gettheir friends back.
Literally when they go out onthe offensive right like they're
going to take back that russianposition because they want
their friends back.
(26:49):
So they negatively influencesthe morale is is the fact that
their buddies have been detainedand they have to get them back
yeah but the social media aroundthe pows on telegram, the
social media itself is is notaffecting the battlefield morale
the thing to remember is towesterners, right like when
you're what you're watchingsocial media almost like a grad
(27:11):
student, right like you're doingresearch and looking at stuff
and and you're kind of likeconsuming this content and
that's very other to you.
That content, on the other end,is very from a.
It's from a completelydifferent world right like these
guys, just message each other.
You know.
I mean, like when theukrainians figure out which unit
(27:33):
, which russian unit, is intheir sector, they will go on
their telegram channel and trashtalk them or be like, hey, you
captured my friend, I want himback.
It's not this one-wayconsumption of social media no,
you're right outside of theconflict.
It is a grad student is a perfect example.
You no, you're right Outside ofthe conflict.
It is a grad student is aperfect example.
You're studying it.
You're wondering what tobelieve when you're there.
First of all, they probablyhave a very good idea on what to
(27:53):
believe and what's propaganda.
Dave Smith (27:56):
I have stood in a trench while a Ukrainian
sergeant or whatever whoever wasthe commander at that
particular position showed mevideo of that trench being hit
by mortars the day before on aRussian telegram channel, Like
they filmed it with their droneand put it on telegram.
And he was like look, this iswhere we're standing now, two
days ago.
(28:16):
It's not just out there in theexpansive internet to them.
The same way, like I look upstuff on YouTube, they're like
it's you, you know and they knewwhich unit it was you could say
that much better what's realand what's not in in real time,
on a day-to-day basis, becauseyou're actually there I
definitely feel like if youasked around for a day or two,
(28:37):
you could find out like yeah,that was yeah, that happened or
no, that's complete russianpropaganda.
That didn't happen.
I saw in your email you had aquestion about Telegram or
whatever.
Like Telegram to mine.
I can't.
I couldn't believe how much itwas still used here in Eastern
Europe when I when it got here,because it's well known to be
penetrated by the FSB Back inthe in the Canadian military,
(29:00):
like when I was working withsome of the three letter
agencies from the US and stuff.
They even said like Telegram isthe FSB's app.
J. Alex Tarquinio (29:07):
You mentioned that the Russian POWs many of
the POWs that you were takingwere conscripts.
Is that right, because that'ssomewhat controversial inside
Russia.
By that do you mean a lot ofthem were 18 or 19-year-olds
with no military experience.
That sounds a little bit liketrying to pull out of the stops
(29:46):
has just accepted they're atpermanent war now.
Dave Smith (29:47):
And that's how it is .
Nato is pretending they're notat war.
Russians have psychologicallyaccepted they are at permanent
war.
That is the problem.
J. Alex Tarquinio (29:52):
I understand the different psychology.
I'm just curious can youdescribe a little bit about the
russian uh pw's?
You said were conscripts?
I can say I only personally sawlike single digits of them, but
they were all like they're notsuper young, they're not kids.
Uh, they were like 20s, 30s andthe dead bodies were all older.
(30:16):
Because there's there's deadbodies everywhere now like the
whole front smells because thisfighting, especially in the
areas where it's been going backand forth for two and a half
years now, there's just bodieseverywhere.
They're older.
It's not like a Hollywood moviewhere everybody looks like
they're Lawrence Fishburne inApocalypse.
Now you know what I mean.
They're not that young.
(30:37):
You can tell they're conscriptsbecause they don't know what
the hell they're doing.
They shoot at you and then youshoot back and they run away.
They don't know what the hellthey're doing.
They shoot at you and then youshoot back and they run away.
A lot of times we just send aRussian speaker up to their
trench and in Russian he justsays, hey, what unit are you
from?
And they tell him the unit andhe's like okay, you're captured.
(30:59):
Now they're noobs.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey're 17 years old.
They could be 25, 30, 35.
But I will say on averagethey're younger than a lot of
the Ukrainians you see at thefront.
The Ukrainian line units.
There's a lot of old dudeswalking around, because a lot of
them are like I got to go fightfor my country, I have to go do
(31:21):
it.
So, even though they are alsonot as professional and trained,
they're more motivated.
They want to be professional onthe Ukrainian side, whereas on
the Russian side, sometimes whenthey took the prisoner because
we always hand them over to theUkrainians, the foreign fighters
it's their war.
We're always like, as soon aswe have a detainee, it's like
over to Ukraine to handle it.
(31:41):
When you hand them toUkrainians, it's almost like
they're joking.
You're saying some of the conscripts are
actually glad to get out of thefight.
Dave Smith (31:50):
You can tell, dude, I've seen their faces.
A lot of them are like I amjust so glad the shooting's over
.
They're not happy about beingcaught, but being caught is way
better than being shot in theface.
So, yeah, I would say many ofthem are obviously relieved.
(32:11):
When you take a detainee, thefirst thing you want to know is
how many more of you guys arethere here?
Are we about to get swarmed?
What's going on?
So you immediately sit themdown and be like what unit are
you from?
How big is your team?
How many casualties have youtaken?
Are there more people coming?
It's not like an interrogationwhere you're trying to figure
(32:33):
out higher level intelligence.
You're trying to figure out thestuff that's going on.
Right then and there and I'vebeen there when they're being
questioned in this way and it isso obvious that they don't know
what's going on.
They have.
They don't even know how to usetheir radios.
They don't know what thepasswords are.
They're just they're fodderMeat wave is is almost a
(32:55):
compliment for them, because itimplies that they have some sort
of agency like they could runat us as a wave.
They don't know what they'redoing.
It's very different than when Igot to Ukraine is when Bakhmut
was falling and we were inDonbass and it's way different
than fighting there.
You know when it was 3rdAssault Brigade fighting Wagner,
(33:18):
you knew that the guys on theother side of the battlefield
knew what they were doing.
You know when you're fightingWagner or VDV or one of the more
elite guards units, you cantell by the weight of the fire
shooting at you like they trymaneuvers, like you can tell
they're trying to flank you.
It's very obvious that you arefighting professionals.
(33:40):
If you stopped paying attentionfor a second they were going to
get the upper hand on you, andit does not feel that way when
you're fighting conscripts.
J. Alex Tarquinio (33:52):
So it's not that the conscripts are
especially young, they're justinexperienced in the ways of war
.
Dave Smith (34:01):
And you know, sorry, I'm just going to sidetrack
here for a second, because thereis this documentary called
Russians at War that I thinkmight have played at the Toronto
International Film Festival.
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:12):
That was a huge controversy on social media
.
Dave Smith (34:15):
Yeah, yeah, you as a .
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:16):
Canadian and then you're actually, I think, a
native of Toronto, Is thatright?
Dave Smith (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's where I'm from.
Yeah,
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:24):
you feel about that being scheduled with
the Toronto Film Festival?
Dave Smith (34:36):
Well, I mean, I didn't really have any feelings
about that, although now thatyou've said it I am thinking
about it more but it's a hugemistake to censor or silence or
protest or boycott that, becauseI think you can't do defensive
psychological operations.
So if you are suppressingsomeone else's free speech in
Canada, you're playing rightinto Putin's hands.
(34:57):
And what I would say is, afterhaving done this rotation here
this summer, I would say youcould absolutely make a good
documentary about Russiansoldiers fighting in Ukraine,
and I would say you knowfilmmakers in the West should
make the same movies aboutUkrainians.
I mean, like, get a strongernarrative out there.
(35:19):
Don't suppress free speech infree countries, like that's,
that's the mistake.
One day I will watch that moviewhen I get the chance to sit
down and see it.
Because, you know, if you wantto show a movie about a bunch of
ignorant Russian conscriptsthat don't know what the hell
they gotten themselves into, Ilike I'm there for that I would
believe it.
I would like to see it.
J. Alex Tarquinio (35:41):
Last year I wrote an essay on soft power
where I wrote about the day forfellas.
They were seen as a little bitof an instrument of soft power
and social media and that theyare supporters of Ukraine.
But the mood has certainlydarkened since then.
How are the NAFO fellas viewedby actual fighters in eastern
Ukraine, or is it sort of tootrivial for them to think?
Dave Smith (36:02):
about.
No, it's's quite positive.
There's stickers and posterseverywhere.
The ukrainians have them ontheir trucks.
They have nafo patches.
Like nafo is, I would say,generally positively viewed.
I don't think they're viewed asdiminishing what's going on
here.
I think they're viewed as kindof um, it's also very western.
(36:22):
I would just say NAFO is a veryWestern thing.
It's not super well understoodin Ukraine.
The young English speakers fromWestern Ukraine get it, but
it's not widespread.
But they have their ownhilarious stuff too, you know a
(36:47):
few times.
They're well known for beingwhat we in the west would call
casualty tolerant.
They basically have arecruiting campaign going on
right now.
If you understand who they areand if you understand ukrainians
, it's actually quite funny.
It's basically like a bunch ofhot women on billboards being
like oh, he's in third assaultbrigade that's,
J. Alex Tarquinio (37:05):
Oh
Dave Smith (37:08):
Yeah, um, than the posters.
Other than the fact if youcan't read ukrainian, you
wouldn't even know it's amilitary recruiting poster.
It is basically like a beercommercial from the 90s.
He's in third assault brigadehot, and it's all these
beautiful women and's like.
If you've ever met anyone from3rd Assault Brigade, it is
hilarious.
I think I've seen some articlesin Western English language
(37:32):
outlets that take huge offenseto it and I could see how you
would be offended if you didn'tunderstand what was going on
here.
3rd Assault Brigade they are sohighly regarded.
They were fighting Wagner andBachmut before.
It was cool.
They just have this kind ofreal ironic sense of humor about
(37:55):
themselves.
When you're around it, you'relike that is funny.
You've almost found a way tomake a joke out of how serious
the situation is because they'reconstantly getting killed,
because they're constantly doingthe most dangerous stuff,
because they're constantlytrying to be the the best unit
(38:15):
in in ukraine and they can alsosomehow turn it into a joke
J. Alex Tarquinio (38:22):
The use of humor and definitely the the
pin-up girls and actually franktalks sometimes about how the
opposite also was done in worldwar one in britain, shaming men
who weren't there
Dave Smith (38:33):
that's a
My grandmother used to walkaround handing out white
feathers in Australia
I was at.
I was at a dinner party or notdinner party, but I was like
having dinner at a friend'shouse once where I was with one
of my Belarusian friends.
(38:53):
He's dating a Ukrainian girland we were having dinner at her
family's house.
I don't know if it was herbrother or uncle, I'm not sure
who it was.
He didn't speak any English,but he was talking to my
Belarusian friend and he wasbasically saying why are you
(39:14):
here doing this?
And my Belarusian friend wassaying hey, man, we're fighting
the same enemy the Sovietreligion is occupying my country
.
We got to save your country sothat I can go back and free
Belarus.
And then the Ukrainian guy waslike why are you fighting here?
(39:34):
Like, pointing at me, he waslike why is this Canadian
fighting here?
And the girl's dad, who waslike well into his 60s, just
launched on this dude, he, hewas like he's fighting because
you're not.
He's at the front linedefending our country because
you won't go do it.
So that that issue ofconscription and the guys not
(39:59):
volunteering and these squadsthat are going around basically
forcing people to register forconscription, it's getting
really tense.
It's getting a lot more tensethan when I got here a year and
a half ago.
You can see the cops stoppingpeople.
I saw it today.
The cops are stopping men onthe street.
They're just literallycornering them and they can't
(40:21):
get away and saying why haven'tyou registered?
Frank Radford (40:42):
It also begs the question, too, about the number
of Ukrainian young men who areterrified of going into
something that they are not atall able to adjust to, have
absolutely no idea,
Dave Smith (40:46):
and I so I would say sorry.
I think that a lot of theseguys don't want to go fight
because they're like dude, wedon't even have weapons.
Like we don't have ammunition.
You know, like, if you want to,if you want to increase
ukrainian recruitment, give them, attack them and let them
strike targets in russia, likerecruitment will go through the
roof
Frank Radford (41:02):
Nevertheless, there is a pessimism.
How do do Ukrainians overcomethat?
Dave Smith (41:08):
Ukrainians have, like there's an appreciation for
humor here that is unique tothem and there is like this
weird sort of cult of humor thatgoes on in Ukraine.
You can feel it when you'rearound them, especially when
you're around their soldiers andtheir old people.
The old people have this kindof gruff exterior that once you
(41:32):
go to dinner with them yourealize like, oh, they're just
making jokes all the time.
You can't sense it until you'resort of in the middle of it.
I think that it is serious anddark here and horrible.
But there is an angle to thiswar that it's really hard to
explain but it's absolutelyhilarious.
(41:54):
The internet generation peopleyou know slightly younger than
me, that have grown up with theinternet.
They don't really take anythingthat seriously and they are
quite funny about everything,and everything is a potential
meme to them, and that's true inUkraine as it is anywhere else.
(42:14):
Some of the young Belarusianguys that I work with that are
like 25, 26 years old.
They almost get killed and thenthey send you a gif of them
almost getting killed.
They almost get killed and thenthey send you a gif of them
almost getting killed.
There's just kind of a gallowshumor to this war.
That I think isunderappreciated and it's
(42:36):
definitely palpable.
Frank Radford (42:39):
And that's it from the Delegates Lounge.
We'd like to thank our esteemedguests, who graciously allowed
us to share their hard-earnedinsights into what really
matters.
And then there's you, ourlisteners, who we hope are
sufficiently edified to clamorfor more of the same.
Do drop in for a weekly episodeon Thursday, or from time to
time if we're on the road, forspecial events, in which case
there'll be a bonus episode.
(43:00):
Subscribe wherever you listento podcasts and if you like what
you've heard, please take amoment to rate or review the
show, as it helps others whoshare your abiding interest in
world affairs to find their wayto the Delegates Lounge.
You can connect with us on manypopular social media platforms
or reach out to us directly atinfothedelicatesloungecom.
We're a small team so we can'trespond to every message, but we
(43:22):
will read them.
Our show this week was writtenand produced by the host and by
yours truly executive producer,frank Radford.
Until next time, keep calm andcurious.
Welcome to the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Welcome back to the second partof our extended interview with
(00:41):
Dave Smith, a former major inthe Canadian Armed Forces who
resigned to fight for Ukraine ina battalion of foreign fighters
, primarily from Belarus, knownas the Kalinowski Regiment.
We introduced you to Dave inpart one, which you can find in
our playlist For that episode.
We spoke with him in July whenhe was rotating back into the
(01:03):
battle for eastern Ukraine thissummer.
He talked with us again inOctober and gave a first-hand
account from the Zero Line, orthe point of contact between the
Ukrainian and Russian forces innorthern Kharkiv, very close to
where Ukrainian troops tookRussian territory in Kursk.
That was before someconsequential geopolitical
developments Confirmation thatNorth Korean troops have come to
(01:26):
fight Ukrainians for Russia andTrump's political comeback.
So although we originallyplanned to finish with the
second episode about Dave'simpression after the battle, we
now plan to publish a thirdepisode that focuses more on the
battlefield developments andbrings listeners up to date.
In this episode, dave focuses onthe human aspects of warfare.
(01:50):
He spent some time in hospitalin Kharkiv and relates what life
is like for the doctors, nursesand patients in, as he calls it
, the last stop before Mordor.
He talks about the treatment ofPOWs and conscripts on both
sides and he explains how socialmedia is used at the front.
He described watching a videoof the trench that he was in
(02:13):
being hit by Russians two daysearlier on the social media app
Telegram.
He graciously shared that videowith us and we added that to
our Instagram and X accounts.
We'll share those links withyou in the show notes.
Also in the show notes you'llfind a link to an essay that I
wrote for Foreign Policy aboutsoft power that mentions the
(02:33):
North Atlantic Fela Organization, an internet meme that bases
its name on NATO.
They call themselves Felas andidentify their accounts with
cartoon avatars of Shiba Inu,dogs or, occasionally, cats.
Dave sheds light on how theNAFO fellas are viewed on the
front lines.
So, without further ado, here'sDave.
(02:54):
Dave, we're so glad to be ableto hear that you are safe and to
be able to speak with you againat the end of your latest tour
on the eastern front of Ukraineand hear how things are going.
Dave Smith (03:14):
Thank you so much.
I'm honored to be on.
Frank Radford (03:19):
It's awesome that you've deigned to be on our our
program, considering whatyou've been through.
Dave Smith (03:26):
okay, I'm just, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna stop
it right there because you'remaking me blush here, uh.
But as long as we're, uh,having the mutual appreciation
society right now, I will tellyou, you guys are the only ones
that have, like really reachedout and consistently asked me
(03:46):
for my thoughts and observationsof what's going on here.
So credit to the DelegatesLounge for, you know, trying to
get to the truth of what'sactually happening on the
battlefield and what all ofthese big picture, you know,
geopolitical developments meanfor the guys that are actually
(04:07):
fighting on the front.
Wars are not won on thebattlefield, they're won in the
information environment.
And just the fact that you sawthis time to have a podcast like
this where you talk about theseissues, like it is super
important.
It's just as important asrunning around like an idiot in
(04:28):
the woods and getting blown up.
Frank Radford (04:30):
No it's not.
Dave Smith (04:32):
If I could have explained this to my chain of
command back in the Canadianmilitary or, more importantly,
the Minister of Defense and thepoliticians, if they listened, I
wouldn't be here.
I would be doing that work.
But after the first year of thewar where I was deployed,
working with the Ukrainians andtrying to just plead with the
(04:53):
decision makers in Ottawa, DC,London, guys, we got to take
this seriously.
After a year of it I just gaveup.
I was like you know what?
I'll go around, run around inthe woods.
Maybe I can do more good thatway.
J. Alex Tarquinio (05:06):
We know that you were in hospital.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how you were injured and
in the hospital this tour.
Dave Smith (05:12):
It was not a horrible injury.
I actually had complete impostersyndrome because I was in the
hospital room with fiveUkrainians who were like
legitimately injured, and I wasjust lying there, you know,
getting monitored for aconcussion.
So I don't want to make it soundlike it was super serious, but
what happened was imagine thatyou know a big long tree line
(05:35):
that is running kind ofnorth-south and it's about a
kilometer wide.
I was on the far east side ofit when there was some M113s
doing casualty evacuations allday, because we were taking a
lot of casualties that day andall that happened was that the
M113 was like racing in, racingout.
There was one with a Ukrainiandriver, one with a Belarusian
(05:58):
driver and these guys are likeabsolute unsung heroes of the
war.
Anyone that is an M113 driverin eastern Ukraine is just crazy
Like they're crazy and heroic,and they were racing up and down
the side of the tree line thatI was on taking out injured guys
, and the Russians, you know,after they made a few trips,
(06:20):
were just like pummeling thattrack that they were on with.
Uh, I believe it was artilleryrounds and they were just hoping
to either disrupt the the m113s, maybe hit an m113 maybe injure
people getting in and out andfor our listeners.
J. Alex Tarquinio (06:36):
Can you define an m113?
Dave Smith (06:38):
sorry, it's a.
Sorry, I was just saying itbecause you guys are Americans.
It's a.
It's an American armoredvehicle that was donated to
Ukraine.
It's generally, I think, forevacuations they use them for
all kinds of things.
Where I was that particular day, they had two of them that were
being used for medicalevacuations because we had we,
(06:59):
we were taking casualties.
Yeah, they, like these guyswere just, you know, like these
drivers or as soon as someonewas injured at the, at the zero
line where I was, a vehicleshowed up within minutes and
they were getting these guys outof here.
So I really want to make thestory kind of about them and
what they were doing.
I just happened to be on theside of the tree line where the
(07:22):
Russians were bombing them andwe were in like little slit
trenches me and one of myBelarusian comrades and a round
landed like right outside of itand I was actually in the trench
.
I was lying down.
It was like we call them shellscrapes.
It's like maybe a couple feetdeep.
It's not like a trench system,it's more like a little fighting
trench, and we knew the roundswere coming.
(07:45):
It had been happening all dayand one landed.
It was extremely close becauseit rolled me out, like the force
of it rolled my body over andthey classified it as a shrapnel
wound, but I didn't actuallyget hit by any shrapnel from the
round.
What happened was there werethese little trees in between
(08:05):
each of the trenches that wereactually holding up the overhead
, uh, cover that I was talkingabout, and those trees exploded
from the force of the, of theblast, and a whole bunch of uh
you know wood chunks just flewat me so I basically got like
giant splinters in my neck and
J. Alex Tarquinio (08:23):
But it is classified as a shrapnel wound
to the neck
Dave Smith (08:27):
yeah, yeah but don't tell my mom, I haven't, I
haven't used those words, uh, tomy mom or my wife or anybody.
yeah, that's like how theyclassify, but
anything to the neck ispotentially life-threatening, so
it was potentially verydangerous and it sounds like the
kind of wound you were lucky towalk away from.
(08:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I did literally walk awayfrom it, Because what happened
was after that round landed.
You know my my fire teampartner and I were like Okay, we
can't stay here.
This is obviously untenable.
So he was looking at me and Iwas like Dude, am I bleeding?
And he's like, yeah, man, Ithink under your beard you're
bleeding.
So I actually walked myselfback about 300 meters.
There was a medic behind us.
She's a Ukrainian medic that iswith one of the units that we
(09:12):
were working with.
She's very identifiable, shehas blue hair and a bunch of
tattoos.
And I can't believe how closeshe had her casualty collection
point to where we were, becauseliterally we packed our stuff up
and walked not even like noteven 300 meters behind us, uh,
(09:34):
and to the ukrainian controlpoint where they were running
their show, and she was standingright there and she saw that
you know, I was holding my neckand there was blood coming down
my glove and, uh, she justimmediately threw me into the
trench, uh, and started doing awhole assessment and then, in
(09:56):
true like, uh I don't know howmuch you guys have talked to
ukrainians, especially ukrainianwomen.
They don't tend to overreact tostuff.
So she, basically it was justlike, yeah, it's an injury, you
got shrapnel in your neck butyou're probably going to be fine
.
Uh, just take your gear off.
And so she did the wholeinspection on me and then was
(10:18):
like, okay, be honest, do youneed to be evacuated right now
because these m113s are drawinga lot of fire?
And I was like, no, I canprobably wait till tomorrow.
I'm okay, because it wasnighttime at this point.
So they just kept me thereuntil the next morning.
And then at like five or six amthe next morning, we walked to
uh, a safer route out of the, uh, the zero line, because I'm in
(10:42):
a belarus in a unit.
Our own medics picked me up andI was in an ambulance and they
did it was like being in anactual ambulance with paramedics
who did like a full assessment,everything on the road.
And then I got to the hospitalin Kharkiv and then I chilled
there for a week and the doctoryour doctors, because I saw a
whole bunch of them they weren'treally panicking about my
(11:02):
injury at all.
They did one real assessmentand sent me for some diagnostics
.
They were mostly concernedabout concussions because we've
had so many we, the whole forcehere, the foreigners, the
Ukrainians, everybody.
We've had a lot of incidentsthis summer where guys were
(11:23):
coming back from these blastinjuries.
But the thing about blastinjuries is like we have so much
, like our gear is so good now,like our helmets are level four,
our ear pro are even the, thestraps on your helmet,
everything like protect you fromstuff that they're looking at
dudes and being like hey, hisinjuries aren't actually that
(11:45):
bad and he seems to be okay.
You just gave him a week off,he'd recover and everything.
But then they have like delayedconcussion syndromes you know I
mean so from what you'redescribing with the gear.
The neck is probably one of thefew vulnerable yeah, there are
guys wearing neck protection too, like if they know they're
going to be in an area where youwere not.
J. Alex Tarquinio (12:06):
Why were you not wearing neck protection?
Dave Smith (12:08):
You can only wear so much kevlar, right, like
eventually you're so heavy youcan't move.
Drivers are a perfect example,right, who are wearing more
protection on their arms, legs,neck, uh, face guards and stuff
like that, and they know they'remore exposed to those kind of
wounds.
I'm out like running around inthe woods, so every ounce of
kevlar that you put on you meansyou're moving slower and then
(12:30):
the drones find you faster.
I would say my, the, the, mygear really did protect me quite
a bit like I had my helmet andear pro on, and even I wish I
had taken a picture of it hadn'toccurred to me at the time.
But there was little.
There was even little splinter,you know, pieces of wood
sticking out of the chin strapof my helmet, blocking stuff
(12:53):
from penetrating my
J. Alex Tarquinio (12:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Frank Radford (13:12):
Dave, presumably you understood the mission and
what your purpose was.
You're defending, presumably, atree line.
Dave Smith (13:19):
Sorry, I should clarify number one we weren't
defending we were on theoffensive for that one.
I know to the average personthat doesn't mean much, but it's
dramatically different.
Like offensive is way harder.
Like Klausowitz said, defenseis the stronger form of warfare
and I agree with that guybecause offense sucks.
So that's why that particularsituation was so dangerous.
What I would say is wedefinitely were taking it to
(13:44):
them and they felt it.
And I should contextualize alittle bit.
It was about a month after Kurskstarted and in that time the
Russians were really panicking.
Where we were, we were theportion of the front closest to
Kursk, obviously north ofKharkiv.
We took a whole schwack ofprisoners this summer and
(14:12):
captured a bunch of radios andwe were listening to them freak
out after Kursk started.
Every week that went by youcould tell the Russian chain of
command was really putting thepressure on them to take back
territory from us that we hadtaken right Because we were
having a pretty successfulsummer.
We took huge swaths of thisparticular wooded area, so they
were quite panicky.
Frank Radford (14:33):
Was your unit identified by them.
Dave Smith (14:35):
I'm sure we're identified.
I'm sure they know who we are.
Everybody knows everybody onceyou're at the front.
We know which Russian units arethere and they know who it is
they're fighting against.
J. Alex Tarquinio (14:49):
So the doctors and nurses?
Do they seem just pureprofessionalism?
Do they seem a little burnt outat this stage of the war?
Have most of them been therefor the last two and a half
years?
Dave Smith (15:04):
No, it was very professional.
I do think they're resourcestrapped.
You definitely feel likethey're doing what they can with
what they got.
There's not a lot of amenitiesin the hospital.
You know what I mean.
You would have to hunt aroundto find a washroom with toilet
paper and soap and stuff likethat.
(15:26):
So first of all, I will say thelevel of care is really
impressive, like when I, if youshow up and you're an injured
soldier coming from the front, Ihad MRIs, fmri, every scan.
They really do take care of theguys that are coming from the
front.
But I did kind of feel like ifyou were to go open like the
(15:47):
storage rooms and whatever, Idon't think they're like
bursting with resources because,like kharkiv is is it's the
last stop before mordor.
You get to kharkiv, it's likethe last outpost of civilization
.
After that it's fighting.
So you're in like the last realhospitals, like the, like these
hospitals were real hospitalsbefore the war.
(16:08):
The staff I definitely got theimpression like all the doctors,
nurses, everybody worked there.
It's obvious that they've beenthere the whole time.
Like you can you can even justtell, by the way they, the way
they talk, that like day-to-daylike they, they see a soldier
with third-degree burns onone-third of his body and
they're like, yeah, this ispretty normal.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:29):
And you mentioned this was a hospital
before the full-scale war.
No, no, no, it's just astraight-up.
Dave Smith (16:36):
The first I went to the Kharkiv Regional Hospital,
which is like in the downtown,in the middle of the city.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:42):
And that's with civilians, you mean.
Dave Smith (16:44):
They like in the downtown in the middle of the
city and that's with civilians.
You mean, they're both.
I was.
Neither of them was a militaryhospital now.
Granted, it's mostly militarydudes walking around with
serious injuries, but it's thereal hospital you would go to if
you phone 9-1-1.
And then they sent me to ahospital, had more specialists
it's where they had the machine,the one where they monitor
everybody for concussions and myhead doctor I don't know what
(17:08):
you call them.
I'm sorry, but the guy thatworries about concussions, he
spoke perfect English.
He was clearly an expert in hisfield.
He could tell that I was likehey, yeah, I got blown up and we
had six other dudes evacuatedthat day for injuries.
But I think I'm okay, and he'slike okay, I think you're okay
(17:28):
too.
But every time somebody sayssomebody, they're okay, and then
five days later they fallasleep at the wheel and get a
car accident because they had aconcussion and we didn't
diagnose it correctly, I get introuble.
So you're staying here for aweek.
So I stayed there for a week.
J. Alex Tarquinio (17:48):
Can you describe just a little bit more
about the people you met inhospital?
So you said you were beingobserved for about a week, and
who did you meet during thatweek and what kinds of injuries
did you see there?
Dave Smith (17:56):
So the dude in the bed right across from me had
like third degree burns onprobably about like 20 or 30% of
his body.
J. Alex Tarquinio (18:04):
How did he get those?
Do you know?
Dave Smith (18:06):
I'm not really sure.
He did not speak a word ofEnglish.
Well, for the first couple ofdays we didn't talk at all.
He was just lying there in abig pile of pain and then over
time he got a lot better.
People were coming and going.
There was another guy from oneof the more elite units in the
(18:28):
Ukrainian special forces worldwho I had worked with his unit
in the past and when he foundout that I was in the Legion you
know Gore Legion he like made adeliberate effort to take his
phone out and we tried to GoogleTranslate some conversations at
least once or twice a day.
He had just come fromChasseviard and I don't know if
(18:50):
you guys have been trackingwhat's going on in Chasseviard
all summer, but that is theworst fight.
It's like the way Bachmut was ayear and a half ago.
It is just just absolutenightmare.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:06):
And he Is, he able to share anything with
doing.
via Google Translate on whathe's doing.
Dave Smith (19:13):
We talked quite a bit.
And then you got to rememberyou're in a hospital, not
everybody is feelingconversational.
The nurse would come in andthat would kind of rile
everybody up and there would bea lot of conversations that I
didn't understand, because youknow, everybody wants to talk
about food or medicine orsomething and then they all
start changing stories orwhatever.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:31):
Um, what language were they mostly?
I don't know if you could tellthe difference, but where
they're mostly speakingUkrainian, russian, uh it's kind
of a mixture of languages.
Dave Smith (19:39):
I would definitely say the hospital staff who are
older generally speak Russian orSergik, which is like a Sergik,
it's like a pidgin language.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:51):
It's a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian
.
Dave Smith (19:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The thing about language andnavigating these kind of like
Byzantine institutions whenyou're an English speaker it's
not like it's new to anybodyelse, right?
There's a lot of foreignfighters walking around.
There's Chechens, georgians,russians, like there's a lot of
Russian fighters here, andthere's a lot of Westerners from
(20:15):
many different countries andlanguages.
So if you show up and you speakFrench or Italian or Spanish or
something, it's not like it isa huge stumbling block to the
nurses, to the average person.
If you said, hey, you gotconcussed in a foreign country
where you don't speak thelanguage.
It's a fairly frighteningexperience to go into a hospital
like that.
But I would say here you'rejust another one that doesn't
(20:40):
speak the language, another onethat doesn't speak the language.
The younger Ukrainians canreally switch back and forth
between Russian and Ukrainianquite easily.
It's noticeable too.
I've listened to so much of it.
You can tell when they're doingone or the other.
The further west you go, themore the language becomes a part
(21:01):
of Ukrainian identity.
A good friend of mine is astand-up comedian.
He's Belarusian in my unit, buthe was a stand-up comedian
before the war and he said hecould not get work in Kyiv
because his Ukrainian justwasn't good enough and they
didn't want to hear him speakingRussian.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:23):
I'm wondering what you're hearing about
videos circulating, and some ofthem.
It's difficult for us,certainly sitting here in New
York, to gauge the accuracybecause so much of it is
circulating in online media,allegedly depicting Russians
hunting civilians in Kherson.
It's being dubbed as almostsafari style.
(21:44):
There have been a few videoscirculating, I think, on
Telegram.
Dave Smith (21:49):
I mean, yeah, I've heard that it's happening, but
mostly just through the news aswell.
Like, are they huntingcivilians in Kherson?
I wouldn't put it past them.
I wouldn't put it past them.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:01):
Another thing is the videos of captured
Ukrainian POWs being killed, youknow, after being disarmed.
What are you hearing there ineastern Ukraine?
Dave Smith (22:14):
Murdering Ukrainian POWs.
Yeah, I'm sure that's happening.
I'm sure it's happened insectors of the front that I was
on.
I know guys, ukrainian dudes intheir units, who have just
straight up said that thathappened.
Their colleagues got capturedand were murdered, and they know
because they tried to arrange aprisoner exchange to get them
back and the russians were likenah, they're dead, you're not
(22:36):
gonna get those guys, we gotother guys but, those guys are
dead, um, but I would say theUkrainians treat the detainees
that they take very well, for abunch of reasons.
Number one they are a hugesource of intelligence.
Like I can't tell you how muchinformation we get from
(22:57):
actionable stuff that we useright away.
Number two they really do wantto exchange them back for their
own guys.
Right, so they don't.
I don't want to say they treatthem nicely or whatever, but
like I've definitely seen, likethey on the line, they question
them right away, they have awhole process to take them off
the line, they give them medicalattention right away, they give
(23:19):
them tea, they give them food,they make sure like they're
they're not freaking out andthey're like, hey, we're not
going to torture you, we're notgoing to kill you.
Like we you know what I meanLike we're going to treat you
well because we really, reallythey call it the exchange fund,
like on the radio they actuallysay, hey, we got two more for
the exchange fund, cause theyreally do want to exchange them
back for their own guys.
(23:40):
And I would like to think, basedon the amount of these prisoner
exchanges that go on, I don'tthink the Russians are as
hospitable as the Ukrainians,but I do think they have a
strong deterrent to murder POWsand I do think the crazy,
(24:02):
bloodthirsty, horrible peoplethat did shit like Bucha and,
you know, wagner with thesledgehammers a lot of them are
dead right, like we've killed alot of those guys, like the
really generally the morehorrific, psychopathic dudes
they're not actually goodfighters Like we they're.
A lot of them are dead.
So I think you have a lot morerational calculators at the
(24:23):
tactical level who are like weneed our troops back just for
pragmatic purposes, like wecan't send these meat waves out
if they keep getting captured.
So I do think the exchange fundnot to say that it makes the
Russians more humane or whateverbut I do think it makes them a
lot more calculating aboutpreserving human life.
And you know, and I've met, youknow I've met Ukrainians that
(24:45):
were in captivity, like I've metguys that were captured for
months and then, you know,exchanged back and they're and
they're still in the militaryfighting.
So I think there's a whole worldof that stuff that we don't
hear about in the news,westerners know nothing about,
because when those negotiationsgo on, man, it's like literally
a Ukrainian talking to a Russianon a radio at the that we don't
hear about in the news,westerners know nothing about,
because when those negotiationsgo on, man, it's like literally
(25:08):
a Ukrainian talking to a Russianon a radio at the front where
they're like, hey, we got 17dudes, how many you got?
They organize an exchange point, they secure the roads and
everything and they go do adrop-off.
So, the goal is to exchange themas quickly as possible.
No, I wouldn't say it's quickly.
I mean I don't know, I'm notsure how it works, but it's not
always quick, Like some of thesedudes are in captivity for
(25:31):
weeks or months, because I thinkthere's like a lot of.
When I say negotiation, I meanit's like a pressure cooker of a
negotiation.
J. Alex Tarquinio (25:40):
Right, it sounded casual on a video but
yeah Now, but getting back tothese videos, I mean they're
obviously horrible videos andimages of allegedly of POWs
who've either been killed orstarved and they circulate on
telegram channels.
We can't gauge the accuracy.
Does this impact morale on thebattlefield?
(26:06):
It really, really impacts theUkrainian morale when guys get
captured.
I would actually say it impactsit more than when they get
killed.
When dudes get detained,because for someone to get
detained they have to be severedfrom their unit right, which
means either people fell backwhen they shouldn't have fallen
back or a position got overrunor something.
(26:28):
Uh, so like it is absolutelyhorrible and the unit you know
I've been attached to units thatlost guys in the sector that we
were at and like their missionin life is not to win the war,
their mission in life is to gettheir friends back.
Literally when they go out onthe offensive right like they're
going to take back that russianposition because they want
their friends back.
(26:49):
So they negatively influencesthe morale is is the fact that
their buddies have been detainedand they have to get them back
yeah but the social media aroundthe pows on telegram, the
social media itself is is notaffecting the battlefield morale
the thing to remember is towesterners, right like when
you're what you're watchingsocial media almost like a grad
(27:11):
student, right like you're doingresearch and looking at stuff
and and you're kind of likeconsuming this content and
that's very other to you.
That content, on the other end,is very from a.
It's from a completelydifferent world right like these
guys, just message each other.
You know.
I mean, like when theukrainians figure out which unit
(27:33):
, which russian unit, is intheir sector, they will go on
their telegram channel and trashtalk them or be like, hey, you
captured my friend, I want himback.
It's not this one-wayconsumption of social media no,
you're right outside of theconflict.
It is a grad student is a perfect example.
You no, you're right Outside ofthe conflict.
It is a grad student is aperfect example.
You're studying it.
You're wondering what tobelieve when you're there.
First of all, they probablyhave a very good idea on what to
(27:53):
believe and what's propaganda.
Dave Smith (27:56):
I have stood in a trench while a Ukrainian
sergeant or whatever whoever wasthe commander at that
particular position showed mevideo of that trench being hit
by mortars the day before on aRussian telegram channel, Like
they filmed it with their droneand put it on telegram.
And he was like look, this iswhere we're standing now, two
days ago.
(28:16):
It's not just out there in theexpansive internet to them.
The same way, like I look upstuff on YouTube, they're like
it's you, you know and they knewwhich unit it was you could say
that much better what's realand what's not in in real time,
on a day-to-day basis, becauseyou're actually there I
definitely feel like if youasked around for a day or two,
(28:37):
you could find out like yeah,that was yeah, that happened or
no, that's complete russianpropaganda.
That didn't happen.
I saw in your email you had aquestion about Telegram or
whatever.
Like Telegram to mine.
I can't.
I couldn't believe how much itwas still used here in Eastern
Europe when I when it got here,because it's well known to be
penetrated by the FSB Back inthe in the Canadian military,
(29:00):
like when I was working withsome of the three letter
agencies from the US and stuff.
They even said like Telegram isthe FSB's app.
J. Alex Tarquinio (29:07):
You mentioned that the Russian POWs many of
the POWs that you were takingwere conscripts.
Is that right, because that'ssomewhat controversial inside
Russia.
By that do you mean a lot ofthem were 18 or 19-year-olds
with no military experience.
That sounds a little bit liketrying to pull out of the stops
(29:46):
has just accepted they're atpermanent war now.
Dave Smith (29:47):
And that's how it is .
Nato is pretending they're notat war.
Russians have psychologicallyaccepted they are at permanent
war.
That is the problem.
J. Alex Tarquinio (29:52):
I understand the different psychology.
I'm just curious can youdescribe a little bit about the
russian uh pw's?
You said were conscripts?
I can say I only personally sawlike single digits of them, but
they were all like they're notsuper young, they're not kids.
Uh, they were like 20s, 30s andthe dead bodies were all older.
(30:16):
Because there's there's deadbodies everywhere now like the
whole front smells because thisfighting, especially in the
areas where it's been going backand forth for two and a half
years now, there's just bodieseverywhere.
They're older.
It's not like a Hollywood moviewhere everybody looks like
they're Lawrence Fishburne inApocalypse.
Now you know what I mean.
They're not that young.
(30:37):
You can tell they're conscriptsbecause they don't know what
the hell they're doing.
They shoot at you and then youshoot back and they run away.
They don't know what the hellthey're doing.
They shoot at you and then youshoot back and they run away.
A lot of times we just send aRussian speaker up to their
trench and in Russian he justsays, hey, what unit are you
from?
And they tell him the unit andhe's like okay, you're captured.
(30:59):
Now they're noobs.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey're 17 years old.
They could be 25, 30, 35.
But I will say on averagethey're younger than a lot of
the Ukrainians you see at thefront.
The Ukrainian line units.
There's a lot of old dudeswalking around, because a lot of
them are like I got to go fightfor my country, I have to go do
(31:21):
it.
So, even though they are alsonot as professional and trained,
they're more motivated.
They want to be professional onthe Ukrainian side, whereas on
the Russian side, sometimes whenthey took the prisoner because
we always hand them over to theUkrainians, the foreign fighters
it's their war.
We're always like, as soon aswe have a detainee, it's like
over to Ukraine to handle it.
(31:41):
When you hand them toUkrainians, it's almost like
they're joking.
You're saying some of the conscripts are
actually glad to get out of thefight.
Dave Smith (31:50):
You can tell, dude, I've seen their faces.
A lot of them are like I amjust so glad the shooting's over
.
They're not happy about beingcaught, but being caught is way
better than being shot in theface.
So, yeah, I would say many ofthem are obviously relieved.
(32:11):
When you take a detainee, thefirst thing you want to know is
how many more of you guys arethere here?
Are we about to get swarmed?
What's going on?
So you immediately sit themdown and be like what unit are
you from?
How big is your team?
How many casualties have youtaken?
Are there more people coming?
It's not like an interrogationwhere you're trying to figure
(32:33):
out higher level intelligence.
You're trying to figure out thestuff that's going on.
Right then and there and I'vebeen there when they're being
questioned in this way and it isso obvious that they don't know
what's going on.
They have.
They don't even know how to usetheir radios.
They don't know what thepasswords are.
They're just they're fodderMeat wave is is almost a
(32:55):
compliment for them, because itimplies that they have some sort
of agency like they could runat us as a wave.
They don't know what they'redoing.
It's very different than when Igot to Ukraine is when Bakhmut
was falling and we were inDonbass and it's way different
than fighting there.
You know when it was 3rdAssault Brigade fighting Wagner,
(33:18):
you knew that the guys on theother side of the battlefield
knew what they were doing.
You know when you're fightingWagner or VDV or one of the more
elite guards units, you cantell by the weight of the fire
shooting at you like they trymaneuvers, like you can tell
they're trying to flank you.
It's very obvious that you arefighting professionals.
(33:40):
If you stopped paying attentionfor a second they were going to
get the upper hand on you, andit does not feel that way when
you're fighting conscripts.
J. Alex Tarquinio (33:52):
So it's not that the conscripts are
especially young, they're justinexperienced in the ways of war
.
Dave Smith (34:01):
And you know, sorry, I'm just going to sidetrack
here for a second, because thereis this documentary called
Russians at War that I thinkmight have played at the Toronto
International Film Festival.
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:12):
That was a huge controversy on social media
.
Dave Smith (34:15):
Yeah, yeah, you as a .
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:16):
Canadian and then you're actually, I think, a
native of Toronto, Is thatright?
Dave Smith (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's where I'm from.
Yeah,
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:24):
you feel about that being scheduled with
the Toronto Film Festival?
Dave Smith (34:36):
Well, I mean, I didn't really have any feelings
about that, although now thatyou've said it I am thinking
about it more but it's a hugemistake to censor or silence or
protest or boycott that, becauseI think you can't do defensive
psychological operations.
So if you are suppressingsomeone else's free speech in
Canada, you're playing rightinto Putin's hands.
(34:57):
And what I would say is, afterhaving done this rotation here
this summer, I would say youcould absolutely make a good
documentary about Russiansoldiers fighting in Ukraine,
and I would say you knowfilmmakers in the West should
make the same movies aboutUkrainians.
I mean, like, get a strongernarrative out there.
(35:19):
Don't suppress free speech infree countries, like that's,
that's the mistake.
One day I will watch that moviewhen I get the chance to sit
down and see it.
Because, you know, if you wantto show a movie about a bunch of
ignorant Russian conscriptsthat don't know what the hell
they gotten themselves into, Ilike I'm there for that I would
believe it.
I would like to see it.
J. Alex Tarquinio (35:41):
Last year I wrote an essay on soft power
where I wrote about the day forfellas.
They were seen as a little bitof an instrument of soft power
and social media and that theyare supporters of Ukraine.
But the mood has certainlydarkened since then.
How are the NAFO fellas viewedby actual fighters in eastern
Ukraine, or is it sort of tootrivial for them to think?
Dave Smith (36:02):
about.
No, it's's quite positive.
There's stickers and posterseverywhere.
The ukrainians have them ontheir trucks.
They have nafo patches.
Like nafo is, I would say,generally positively viewed.
I don't think they're viewed asdiminishing what's going on
here.
I think they're viewed as kindof um, it's also very western.
(36:22):
I would just say NAFO is a veryWestern thing.
It's not super well understoodin Ukraine.
The young English speakers fromWestern Ukraine get it, but
it's not widespread.
But they have their ownhilarious stuff too, you know a
(36:47):
few times.
They're well known for beingwhat we in the west would call
casualty tolerant.
They basically have arecruiting campaign going on
right now.
If you understand who they areand if you understand ukrainians
, it's actually quite funny.
It's basically like a bunch ofhot women on billboards being
like oh, he's in third assaultbrigade that's,
J. Alex Tarquinio (37:05):
Oh
Dave Smith (37:08):
Yeah, um, than the posters.
Other than the fact if youcan't read ukrainian, you
wouldn't even know it's amilitary recruiting poster.
It is basically like a beercommercial from the 90s.
He's in third assault brigadehot, and it's all these
beautiful women and's like.
If you've ever met anyone from3rd Assault Brigade, it is
hilarious.
I think I've seen some articlesin Western English language
(37:32):
outlets that take huge offenseto it and I could see how you
would be offended if you didn'tunderstand what was going on
here.
3rd Assault Brigade they are sohighly regarded.
They were fighting Wagner andBachmut before.
It was cool.
They just have this kind ofreal ironic sense of humor about
(37:55):
themselves.
When you're around it, you'relike that is funny.
You've almost found a way tomake a joke out of how serious
the situation is because they'reconstantly getting killed,
because they're constantly doingthe most dangerous stuff,
because they're constantlytrying to be the the best unit
(38:15):
in in ukraine and they can alsosomehow turn it into a joke
J. Alex Tarquinio (38:22):
The use of humor and definitely the the
pin-up girls and actually franktalks sometimes about how the
opposite also was done in worldwar one in britain, shaming men
who weren't there
Dave Smith (38:33):
that's a
My grandmother used to walkaround handing out white
feathers in Australia
I was at.
I was at a dinner party or notdinner party, but I was like
having dinner at a friend'shouse once where I was with one
of my Belarusian friends.
(38:53):
He's dating a Ukrainian girland we were having dinner at her
family's house.
I don't know if it was herbrother or uncle, I'm not sure
who it was.
He didn't speak any English,but he was talking to my
Belarusian friend and he wasbasically saying why are you
(39:14):
here doing this?
And my Belarusian friend wassaying hey, man, we're fighting
the same enemy the Sovietreligion is occupying my country
.
We got to save your country sothat I can go back and free
Belarus.
And then the Ukrainian guy waslike why are you fighting here?
(39:34):
Like, pointing at me, he waslike why is this Canadian
fighting here?
And the girl's dad, who waslike well into his 60s, just
launched on this dude, he, hewas like he's fighting because
you're not.
He's at the front linedefending our country because
you won't go do it.
So that that issue ofconscription and the guys not
(39:59):
volunteering and these squadsthat are going around basically
forcing people to register forconscription, it's getting
really tense.
It's getting a lot more tensethan when I got here a year and
a half ago.
You can see the cops stoppingpeople.
I saw it today.
The cops are stopping men onthe street.
They're just literallycornering them and they can't
(40:21):
get away and saying why haven'tyou registered?
Frank Radford (40:42):
It also begs the question, too, about the number
of Ukrainian young men who areterrified of going into
something that they are not atall able to adjust to, have
absolutely no idea,
Dave Smith (40:46):
and I so I would say sorry.
I think that a lot of theseguys don't want to go fight
because they're like dude, wedon't even have weapons.
Like we don't have ammunition.
You know, like, if you want to,if you want to increase
ukrainian recruitment, give them, attack them and let them
strike targets in russia, likerecruitment will go through the
roof
Frank Radford (41:02):
Nevertheless, there is a pessimism.
How do do Ukrainians overcomethat?
Dave Smith (41:08):
Ukrainians have, like there's an appreciation for
humor here that is unique tothem and there is like this
weird sort of cult of humor thatgoes on in Ukraine.
You can feel it when you'rearound them, especially when
you're around their soldiers andtheir old people.
The old people have this kindof gruff exterior that once you
(41:32):
go to dinner with them yourealize like, oh, they're just
making jokes all the time.
You can't sense it until you'resort of in the middle of it.
I think that it is serious anddark here and horrible.
But there is an angle to thiswar that it's really hard to
explain but it's absolutelyhilarious.
(41:54):
The internet generation peopleyou know slightly younger than
me, that have grown up with theinternet.
They don't really take anythingthat seriously and they are
quite funny about everything,and everything is a potential
meme to them, and that's true inUkraine as it is anywhere else.
(42:14):
Some of the young Belarusianguys that I work with that are
like 25, 26 years old.
They almost get killed and thenthey send you a gif of them
almost getting killed.
They almost get killed and thenthey send you a gif of them
almost getting killed.
There's just kind of a gallowshumor to this war.
That I think isunderappreciated and it's
(42:36):
definitely palpable.
Frank Radford (42:39):
And that's it from the Delegates Lounge.
We'd like to thank our esteemedguests, who graciously allowed
us to share their hard-earnedinsights into what really
matters.
And then there's you, ourlisteners, who we hope are
sufficiently edified to clamorfor more of the same.
Do drop in for a weekly episodeon Thursday, or from time to
time if we're on the road, forspecial events, in which case
there'll be a bonus episode.
(43:00):
Subscribe wherever you listento podcasts and if you like what
you've heard, please take amoment to rate or review the
show, as it helps others whoshare your abiding interest in
world affairs to find their wayto the Delegates Lounge.
You can connect with us on manypopular social media platforms
or reach out to us directly atinfothedelicatesloungecom.
We're a small team so we can'trespond to every message, but we
(43:22):
will read them.
Our show this week was writtenand produced by the host and by
yours truly executive producer,frank Radford.
Until next time, keep calm andcurious.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.