Dining with Diplomats: Midsummer Edition 2025

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Welcome back.

(00:35):
This is the third edition of ourongoing series Dining with
Diplomats about the significanceof food in diplomacy.
If you enjoy this episode, besure to listen to the first two
editions in December thatfeature a dozen diplomats from
around the world.
You can find recipes from allof their countries at the link
in our show notes.
In this episode, we're lookingat midsummer celebrations in

(00:58):
Europe.
We start, naturally, withSweden, where the midsummer
holiday has an importance on apar with Christmas.
We're joined by Erik Ullenhag,the Consul General of Sweden in
New York, where thousands aregathering in Rockefeller Park to
mark the summer solstice.
The Consul General, who insistswe call him Erik, is a former

(01:20):
member of the Swedish Parliament.
He went from politician todiplomat in 2016.
Since then, he has served asSweden's ambassador to Jordan
and Israel, before taking up hispost in New York last year.
Eric delves deep intoScandinavian history and the
cultural significance of theMidsummer holiday and, of course

(01:41):
, the food.
Here's our conversation.
Welcome to Dining withDiplomats.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
This is the Midsummer Edition, so we're very pleased
to have Sweden in the house toexplain the importance of the
Midsummer holiday tradition inSweden.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Midsummer is one of the biggest holidays in Sweden
and the big holidays in Swedenare most often connected to
light.
The reason is simple.
We have four months in thewinter where we hardly see the
sun, so midsummer is celebratingthe lightest day of the year.
And you could also see, if youvisit Sweden, that we pay the

(02:41):
price in the winter that wehardly don't see the sun, and
then we have in the summer wherethe sun is up all the time.
Similar is actually Lucia,another Swedish tradition, that
is in December, where from thebeginning, italian saint is
coming with the light becausethat's the darkest time.
So these are two of the biggest, I would say, swedish and quite

(03:01):
specific Swedish traditions.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
In fact, I asked a Swedish friend and she said that
it is as important as Christmas.
It's like a second Christmas.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
The second Christmas is different if you see such a
tradition, because Christmas inSweden is very family oriented,
while Midsummer is moregathering your friends and
having two kids myself.
I'm super happy if they're withme in Midsummer.
But it could also be a way fora Midsummer party and it is one
of the traditions that actuallytoday is connected christianity

(03:31):
and religion.
But from beginning is not thechristian tradition.
It's a very old traditioncelebrating the light and also
celebrating that you could havethe harvest and the food coming
in in the summer well, in fact,you mentioned saint Lucia in
December, but there is also asaint associated with midsummer,
isn't that right?

Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's St John's holiday.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's a St John's holiday that is connected to
midsummer, but if you ask anordinary Swede, they won't speak
about St John's, they willspeak about the midsummer pole
that you dance around.
That sad to say.
Uh, not mention so manychristian connections to
midsummer.
It's more a way of celebratinglife and the feeling that that
light is coming back well, themidsummer holiday is much older

(04:14):
than christianity.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
I mean, there's there's some theories that it
goes back almost to the the latestone age and the beginning of
agriculture in europe.
Um, and it is so in that senseit's very tied, isn't it, with
the planting and the beginningof agriculture in Europe?
And so in that sense it's verytied, isn't it, with the
planting and the growing season.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, it's tied to planting and the growing season
and it goes as you said.
It has much longer historicalroads than Christianity in
itself.
But of course, as all countriesthen adopted and got Christian
and left the old belief systembehind them, you today then have

(04:51):
a Christian connection as well,because this was a very strong
tradition already beforeChristianity and of course the
church then goes in and you alsohave a religious part of it
today.
But the roots are not Christianfrom the beginning.
If you were a traditional, youshould collect seven different

(05:12):
flowers and if you put theseseven different flowers under
your pillow you could be able todream about the woman or man
that you will fall in love inlife.
So that's still a traditionthat is there.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Some of the folk traditions.
Obviously people don't.
I would assume that most peoplethey don't necessarily believe
that, but do they still do it asa cultural practice?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, and many kids do it.
It depends on the family.
It's not everyone for themoment, but it's still quite a
living tradition.
We also have this way of makingflower circles that we put on
our head mostly today.
I would say it is a celebrationof that shortest night.
That is hardly not a night insweden, because even in in

(05:59):
middle in central parts ofsweden the sun is up almost to
11 or half past 11 and then itgoes up again half past one in
the morning.
So if you sit up at themidsummer night you hardly
notice that the night cameactually, and that's what people
are celebrating.
A lot of the music in Sweden,traditional folk music.

(06:20):
Everett Torb is one of ournational biggest poets for songs
, a lot about summer and a lotabout midsummer, and collected
these seven flowers you couldfind songs about and then
Dancing Around the Maypole.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
But Dancing Around the Maypole, isn't there a lot
of folk songs?
I mean, are there traditionalfolk songs associated with that?

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, you have.
When you dance around themaypole, you have certain songs
that are interesting for aforeigner because they are only
connected this uh, maypole, uh.
So, among other things, we aresinging the dancing frogs and
jumping around and and if youcome to battery park in

(07:04):
midsummer in new y, we have6,000 people coming and I think
last summer we had 5,000, 6,000.
Mostly Swedes, but other peoplecome.
And the interesting thing,always when people live outside
the country, their traditionsbecome even more important.
And we keep that really Swedish, and you could see us dancing

(07:24):
and dancing frogs or jumpingfrogs.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, so your summer is a very short season in terms
of the length of the season, butvery long growing days.
We spoke with the Finnishforeign minister, actually for
our first dining episode, andshe mentioned that the berries
were so sweet because the sunalmost never set.
So during those few months theberries are sweet and perhaps
there are other foodstuffs thatyou have associated with summer

(07:51):
that grow particularly well inthose long days.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
What you need to have from a midsummer table if
you're in Sweden is actuallypotatoes.
Fresh potato in the summer isamazing.
My youngest daughter we havebeen living abroad for some time
she always, when she comes homein June, july, is waiting for
the fresh potatoes that arecoming.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Is there a special preparation?
Is it potato salad Cold, or arethey served hot or warm?

Speaker 2 (08:14):
You could have it as a salad, but mostly you have
fresh potatoes at the table.
So you have fresh potatoes.
You have the strawberries thatis a short season but, asnish
foreign minister said, verysweet strawberries during this
time and, with all the respectthat they doesn't taste so much
the rest of the year when youimport them, but, but these
weeks they're amazing.

(08:34):
So potatoes on the table, uh,strawberries on the table.
Traditionally also we haveherring uh, that is scandinavian
dish, some loves it, some don'tlike it.
Uh, you also have pie calledwestern western bottom pie,

(08:55):
cheese pie, and you have it, tobe honest, also to fill your
stomach.
Okay, you could fill yourstomach with, with, with the
potato, uh, but if you have forthe summer, for for the
midsummer, herring and andsalmon normally smoked salmon or
salmon in different forms, uh,or gravatlax, uh then you need

(09:17):
something to also fill yourstomach.
It's also big in anotherswedish tradition and that's the
crayfish parties that are hugein august, also connected to the
summer, and if you only eatcrayfish you normally lose more
calories than you get in.
You eat in the crayfishtogether with, traditionally,
some kind of snaps of vodka andof course, then you need the
Westerbottom pie, then to getsome food in your stomach.

(09:41):
Basically, I love the pie butit's complimentary to what you
feel is the main food.
You normally combine it withsome kind of pie.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
So crayfish, herring and smoked salmon.
I'm getting a sense that in thesummer that the fishermen go
out and spend those long days onthe water.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know the herring is not fresh.
It's different recipes.
You could have it's differentrecipes, you could have it with
mustard, you could have it withdill, you could have a lot of
different things.
And these the people in Swedenthat loves herring could have
three, four or five differenttypes for a midsummer table.
Crayfish is interesting becauseof course you could buy it in
the shop, but the tradition isthat we have a crayfish fishing

(10:22):
season in August normally, whereyou really would like to go to
a place where you fish yourcrayfish yourself.
So you put it, put down thecages, you get up the crayfish,
you prepare them a couple ofdays and then you cook them, and
then the nights are gettinglonger.
So then normally you have itwith with some lights in the

(10:45):
garden, but still able to sitoutside because the the the sun
is going down maybe nine o'clockin the evening instead of 11
o'clock, but but you feel thatchange.
You have the crayfish andthat's also part of this
traditional swedish summer,depending on where you are in
the country those swedishmeatballs, for example.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Are those a traditional midsummer dish, or
is that more for the winterholidays?

Speaker 2 (11:07):
The Swedish meatballs normally have on all these
events.
You have them for Christmas,you have them for midsummer.
Lucia doesn't really connectwith food.
The 13th of December, it's moregingerbread cookies, it's
Lusseband, that is Luciacia bun,that is a lot of saffron.

(11:29):
So that's more connected to tosweets, that tradition.
And also, when it comes to cake, we have the princess cake, for
example.
It's big in the summer.
That is marzipan and and cakeand and cream.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
That is marzipan and cake is it?
Is it a frosting of marzipan oris it inside?

Speaker 2 (11:47):
It's over the cake and it's very beautiful.
You normally have a rose on thetop.
It's less sweet than theAmerican version of marzipan.
You could also get it whereit's almost plain marzipan
without sugar in it.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
And what is the cake?
Is it a vanilla?

Speaker 2 (12:05):
cake.
It's quite fluffy cake,traditional cake bottom, and
then you have some jam in it,normally strawberry jam, and
then you have some cream in itas well.
You have something in the northof sweden that is very exotic
in the way.

(12:26):
That is certain kind of herringor fish that is actually rotten
.
So in the northern part ofsweden that's huge tradition,
but that's more local.
I haven't just eaten it once.
It's okay, I'm representingSweden, so I should say it's

(12:46):
great.
The problem is that the smellis really problematic, so you
need to be in the north and eatit outside.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
It's like Lindberger cheese, where it's tasty but the
smell is a bit off-putting.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
And the thing is when you have people from the north
moving down to Stockholm orMalmö or somewhere else and it
doesn't happen so often, but butit could really be a fight
between neighbors if they havethis celebration of the
surströmming, as we say insweden, this kind of fish and
open the can because it's cannedand the smell is all over the
house.
So you should be outside andyou should be at a place with

(13:19):
not so many people.
But that's more a northerntradition.
I did want to get you todescribe your favorite dishes,
which don't necessarily have tobe midsummer I personally really
am a fan of crayfish and thattradition and that's also going
back to my family, that we wereable to fish our own crayfish.

(13:40):
It's going back to childhoodmemories and that the kind of
celebration you get when you'refishing to get it.
I'm also a big fan of Swedishfresh potatoes.
It is the best potatoes in theworld actually.
You just eat it with somebutter and then salt and you
don't cook it for so longbecause it's so fresh.
Also, salmon.

(14:02):
My Norwegian colleague mightsay it's more Norwegian, but for
us it's part of the Swedishtradition.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
The crayfish.
I'm very interested because yousaid you would fish for this or
you would catch it as a child.
But first of all, where do youfish for crayfish and how are
they caught?
Is it by a net?

Speaker 2 (14:20):
It's a really interesting question.
What you have is normally insmall lakes and we have a lot of
small lakes in finland andsweden finland is also big
crayfish uh or in small rivers.
You can get them and then youput the cage down, uh, with.
You fish some fish before thiskind of fish that you don't eat.
You push, you put the fish inthe cave, you trick them to go

(14:42):
in a little bit like a mousetrap, but bigger.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
How do you do that?
You put something in.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, you put something in so you have the
cave that you can go in, butthey climb the net and then they
are inside a box, a little bitlike lobster, and then you pick
them up and you can have 12 to14 crayfish in one of these
cages.
And if you want to keep them mybrother is big in this he's

(15:10):
doing this every summer if youwant to build up storage of
crayfish, you actually keep them.
It's not so nice.
You keep them in a eatingpotatoes actually and you have
them alive you have them aliveuntil yeah you have them alive
until for them to grow a littlemore.
You could have them alive for 10days, and then you boil them

(15:32):
and then fatten them up yeah,and then you, you put the black
crayfish down and it became red.
And we have one of the bigswedish poets, that poem saying
no one die as cruelly as thecrayfish because they die alive.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
And you said they're black and then they turn red in
the water, but they're blackbefore you throw them in the
water.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
And then you serve them with dill and normally in
the Swedish tradition you drinkthem with schnapps or vodka.
The liquid tradition is alittle bit going down in Sweden.
I would say it's more white.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I always picture that when I was in Sweden and at the
summer house.
Many families have the summerhouse tradition by.
Like they're often notwinterized, you only use them
for a few months a year, is thatright?

Speaker 2 (16:18):
You only use them for the summer normally, or maybe
you could go out from April toOctober and then you need to
close them down and normally,like at the r my grandfather
built that place in 1940s and wedon't have water closet, we
have outdoor toilet and and Ithink we have some weird feeling

(16:40):
that it's it's great in thesummer if it's nature, if it's
simple and yeah yeah, yeah, andit's often near a lake, so
that's why you would do thecrayfish at the lake, and often
in midsummer don't you go jumpin a lake, either skinny dipping
or yeah, yeah, of course,depending on the family of
course you.
You, if you're close to the lake, you bathe.
Uh yeah, at that time still,the lakes could be quite cold.

(17:03):
So in the summer it's up to 20,22 degrees Celsius, what you
give 60, 70 Fahrenheit something.
In the beginning of summer itcould be 14, 14 degrees, but
people go in anyway.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Do you have a tradition of going in in winter?

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, that's an ice-baving tradition coming from
Finnish and northern part ofSweden.
But we have it.
But what we do have done in thesummer is that a Swedish kid
bathes every day in the summermy now 89-year-old mother.
She starts every morning, goingdown to the lake, Even if it's
raining, even if it's 14 degrees.

(17:42):
That's part of a tradition.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
From April to October .

Speaker 2 (17:47):
June to August, I would say.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
June.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
August, september maybe.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
But by August, september the water is getting a
bit warmer right.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
But the lakes are normally quite small.
So as soon as the weather ischanging it's dropping quite
rapidly and if you have four orfive days of good sun you could
go up quite rapidly.
But if you take the traditionallakes already in september it's
a little bit too cold and thenwe are going into an atmosphere
of going back to work.
Schools are starting.

(18:17):
Summer is over, which is a sadtime for many swedes.
You know they happen as we feelin April and May, pay for it.
In the fall.
Swedish people already the dayafter midsummer say oh, it's
going to get darker now, so youhave melancholy around it as
well.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
The only film I could think of was the horror film
Midsummer, which you've probablyseen it, and that's a bit
regrettable because that'sprobably not how Swedes want
their holidays remembered.
But it is interesting becauseit it starts out very happy and
light, but then you see that youknow, like often in horror
films, you see the madness belowthe surface.
But are there any other, maybebetter, depictions of Midsommar

(18:58):
in the culture?

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Quite often in both TV series and movies you might
have a scene from Midsommar,especially in family dramas,
where all the expectations isbuilt up around Midsommar, and
so you have a little bit sad tosay, but a little bit of the
dark tradition of the Nordic orSwedish filmmaking.

(19:23):
You also have this as a failed.
Midsummer is a good way oftelling a story about a family
that's not really functioning.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
It goes back perhaps to the Ingmar Bergman tradition
the very dark.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Swedish film.
That's the Ingmar Bergmantradition, I would say.
But we had a Norwegian-SwedishTV series.
That's quite big now.
It also started on Midsommarand all the problems in the
family.
It was happy, but under thelayer you could see, okay, they
are getting a divorce.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
We have some of those films not only in the United
States, I'm thinking in Europetoo around Christmas, where the
whole family comes together atChristmas.
But then you have the typicalfamily drama takeover.
But in Midsommar it'll be evenmore dramatic because of course
it's light out.
You expect everything to belighthearted.
How food is used in diplomacyis quite fascinating.

(20:17):
For example, you were recentlythe ambassador in Jordan, israel
.
Did you have dinners where youserved Swedish dishes and did
you have to make adaptations tothe cuisine, given that you
would have different products?
It's a much hotter climate, tosay the least.
Or did you try and lay on atypical Swedish smorgasbord?

Speaker 2 (20:36):
It happened, but the big thing was that we had the
modern Swedish cuisine thatwe're also trying to promote is
quite climate-friendly.
We have meat but more of fish,more vegetables.
If you take Israel, for example, of course you had a kosher
tradition for some of the guests.
You needed to adjust to thekosher In Jordan, if you came to

(20:58):
my residence there, I had aJordanian chef, but he had been
to Sweden and learned thetradition of Swedish cooking.
Here in New York we haveactually a chef from Finland,
gitanian chef, but he had beento sweden and learned
traditional swedish cooking.
Here in new york we have aactually a chef from finland
that was chef of the year infinland, heiki and he he is a
good example of the modernswedish, finnish cuisine that is
a combination of traditionalnordic but with influences from

(21:22):
from what he does then is thatalso here he's following the
seasons quite a lot Rhubarb wehad a lot for dessert for a
while here because we find fresh.
So that's also a way of beingclimate friendly in how we cook
and also, yeah, it's a tool forus also in presenting more
modern Sweden and Nordic.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Rhubarb pie was very popular in my family and I think
it is also English.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
It is a Swedish-Finnish tradition.
We have the rhubarb, but he didit also in the fusion way and
having five different rhubarbfor dessert.
It wasn't the rhubarb pie.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
In Jordan, for example, you had a diplomatic
meal.
Would you try and do a fusion,for example, of Swedish and
Jordanian foods, or would thedishes be very traditionally
Swedish?

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Traditionally Swedish , but also fusion sometimes and,
of course, respectingtraditions, quite often hosted
iftars as well and, of course,if you have the iftar tradition,
you should start with the dates.
Then you invite people that areactually fasting, so you need to
respect their traditions.
Today you have people, quite alot of people, fasting in sweden

(22:32):
, where it is an interestingdebate among imams if they
should follow the swedish.
Coming back to the light, theswedish daylight or the the, the
alternatives is Riyadh daylight, because if you are in
Stockholm in June with 22 hoursof sun, the fasting is a little
bit more challenging than inDecember.

(22:53):
Most of them say that the bestthing is to follow Saudi time
because it's not doable.
So now it's closer because it'sin the spring, but give it a
couple of years, it's going tobe in December.
Then if you're going to followthe Swedish tradition, then
you're fasting for two hours.
The interesting thing with theSwedish kitchen today is the mix

(23:13):
, so the fact that Sweden todayhas actually 20% of the
population foreign-born, whichis higher than the United States
180 different nationalities bybirth.
It started with the Italiankitchen coming in, some of the
Turkish kitchen, because we havea lot of Turkish immigrants, a
little South American kitchenand the combination of the more

(23:36):
Nordic, simple, plain,climate-friendly kitchen with
Asian kitchen, japanese or be itit Italian one, is quite
amazing actually.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Now, the North is very interesting.
Obviously, most of thepopulation is in the South,
understandably, but in the Northit is a very different
tradition, right?
I mean, they are Arctictraditions, and are they
connected perhaps with otherArctic cultures, or is it
particularly to Sweden?

Speaker 2 (24:04):
You see the same traditions in Finland and Sweden
.
You have a quite big Swedishspeaking minority in Finland.
You have the Finnish minorityin the Swedish side, in the
north, also a little bit over toNorway.
They are very close.
Then of course you have theindigenous people, the Sami
people.
That goes over the borders.

(24:25):
So that's in the north ofSweden, finland, norway and then
also traditional Russia.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Is there any blending of the culinary traditions in
the north between the Samipeople, swedish, finnish and
maybe even some Russiantradition, but I'm thinking
particularly the Sami?
Do they eat more wild game, forexample?

Speaker 2 (24:45):
One of the biggest part of the traditional Sámi
culture and also Sámi economy isactually reindeer.
So the reindeer is big up inthe north, which also from time
to time have created conflictsbecause these are animals that
need really big spaces and bigland areas.
You could have the conflicts aswe had in Sweden in the last

(25:08):
decades with the wolf comingback to Sweden because they
attacked the reindeer or themining.
You could also see the Samiinfluences in the Swedes living
up north as well and culture andtradition of a lot of hunting
and fishing, which of coursemakes a slightly difference.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
and then stockholm or malmo or gottenberg now my
understanding is that so manypeople they're free to go back
and forth across the borders oftheir hunting reindeer.
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (25:37):
yes, and you have norway.
Finland and sweden don't reallyhave a border between us in
that way.
Long before we we joined theEuropean Union, we had a
passport union so you couldtravel without passport.
The Nordic countries are inthat way.
We're close together.
And you should also rememberthat Finland used to be a part

(25:57):
of Sweden, norway used to be apart of Sweden, norway also used
to be a part of Denmark and wefought all these wars.
Today we could say we have theworld's best neighbors.
So you know, and in that way Ithink the Nordic model could
also be a little bit the rolemodel for the rest of the world,
where we're not going back 300years in history and look at

(26:18):
this battle and find thedifferences between us.
It's more that we havesimilarities between us.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Today, I would say the Swedish kingdom was the far
north for a long time, but theyfound ways to live with their
neighbors.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, I have a summer house close to the Norwegian
border, you don't need apassport to travel between the
northern countries.
Then we have had exceptions,when we had the refugee crisis
and so on, when we needed tohave some kind of border control
, which was highly controversialin the Nordic countries because
it made it more difficult tolive in Malmö, work in

(26:56):
Copenhagen.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
It'll be about food and culture.
But because Sweden, norway andFinland all have those long
spans north-south and thenorthern part is Arctic, it
sounds almost like there's moredifference between the south,
where most of the people live,for example, in Stockholm, and
the north than there is between,say, Stockholm and Oslo.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
It could be Culturally, culturally.
It could be Culturally,culturally it could be.
And my family one part of myfamily is close to the Norwegian
border in a small town calledArvika in Värmland, a county
next to Norway, and my fatheralways described Oslo as his
capital because it was just 170kilometers.
It was to Oslo he went to watchsports.

(27:44):
If you are used to Danish andlive close to the Danish border,
you probably also watch Danishtelevision.
If you're close to the Swedishborder, you watched Swedish
television when you were a kid,which means that you understand
each other.
If you live close to theNorwegian border, you understand
each other well.
If you live in the north, uh,with different dialect, you will

(28:05):
have a challenge understandingthe danes, the finn.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
The finnish is a finnish, hungarian language,
which is totally different rightand finnish, and uh and
hungarian are understood to betwo of the most difficult
languages in the world to learnas second languages so what then
?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
I said so you have this history and you, after the
second world war, finland wasvery poor.
Sweden wasn't part of the war,so many finnish people came over
to sweden also as kids.
Uh, during the war, you sentyour 12, 13 year old to sweden.
Of course, for most of thesepeople this was great, because
they came to a peaceful place.
And then they it was so poor sothey actually could get food.

(28:42):
Uh, but being separated fromyour family when you are early
teenagers, these kinds ofstories are also there.
What happened last decade, Iwould say, or last decades, is
that we are much more equalbetween each other in a way.
Norway found oil, so they aresuper rich.
So then young Swedes needed togo over to Oslo, which was a

(29:04):
cool city, to work, so that thatalso is equalizing the relation
.
Finland last 10 years has beentremendously popular in sweden,
and finland has also in certainways taken the lead in in the
nordic countries when it comesto joining the nato together
with sweden.
We were very impressed on howthey handled the pandemic.

(29:26):
Traditionally it used to bethat Danes, finns and Norwegians
followed Swedish news andSwedish politics.
Now it's more.
If you look at Swedishnewspapers, it's more equal.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Thank you so much for joining us in the Delegates
Lounge.
Thank you From Scandinavia, wemake our way across Europe to

(30:02):
the Mediterranean.
The Spanish consulate in NewYork shared a favorite summer
recipe with us.
In Spain, where summertemperatures often soar above 40
degrees Celsius or 104 degreesFahrenheit, and occasionally
much higher in recent years, thecuisine needs to be refreshing
as well as tasty and nutritious.

(30:22):
On searing summer days, theSpanish consular staff
recommends samorejo, a cold,creamy tomato soup from Cordoba.
This is not to be confused withgazpacho, another cold soup
originating from the Andalusiaregion of Spain, that was
famously served up in theclassic Pedro Almodovar film

(30:45):
Women on the Verge of a NervousBreakdown.
But gazpacho is a thinner blendof tomatoes, cucumbers and bell
peppers that could be consumedeither as a soup or as a
refreshing summer drink, Whereassalmorejo is a thick, creamy,
cold tomato soup typicallyserved as a starter course for a
Spanish dinner.
I don't remember the first timeI tasted salmonejo Eva, a

(31:10):
member of the Spanish culturalstaff, shares with us but I
remember how it felt Cold,creamy and like pure sunshine in
a bowl.
Every summer in Andalusia, mygrandmother would make it in her
tiny kitchen, always with thesame ritual Peeling the tomatoes
with care, soaking the breadjust right and finishing it with

(31:32):
a swirl of olive oil thatlooked like gold.
Salmorejo is really quitesimple to make.
Chop ripe tomatoes and blenduntil smooth, Strain and puree
to remove the skin and seeds, oryou could use a food bill if
you have one.
Add day-old white bread,preferably without a thick crust
, and let it soak for a fewminutes.

(31:53):
Add a clove of garlic, extravirgin olive oil and salt to
taste, Then chill for at leastan hour before serving.

(32:18):
We journey now to the Black Sea,a unique body of water where
Europe and Asia meet.
We're joined by diplomats fromRomania and later Bulgaria, two
neighboring Balkan countriesbordering the Black Sea and
traversed by the powerful DanubeRiver.
Andrea Mocanu, the deputypermanent representative of

(32:38):
Romania to the United Nations inNew York, has been a diplomat
for 16 years.
Among other things, she'sfocused on minorities and
election observation.
She shares her personalfavorite recipes, and especially
those only in season during thesummer holidays in the rural
village where she grew up.
Andrea Mocanu, thanks so muchfor joining us in the Delegates

(33:15):
Lounge and for hosting us todayin your lovely mission to the
United Nations.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
Hi, Alex, and thank you very much for inviting me.
And yeah, welcome to ourmission, the permanent mission
of Romania.
We're very happy to be part ofthis show.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh, thank you.
Well, we're very happy to haveyou.
Let's start by talking about apersonal favorite of yours.
Is there a Romanian dish that'sa personal favorite, and maybe
tell us a little bit about, forexample, how you learned to make
it?

Speaker 4 (33:40):
Right, good question, and I think I'll jump with
something which is not boringand I'll go for a dessert.
In Romanian we call themcornulețe.
Maybe a New Yorkish translationwould be Romanian rugelach.
And this is a dessert whichreminds me of my family, of my
grandmother, because this wasthe first dessert that I made

(34:00):
with her.
My brother was my assistant, soyou know women empowerment.
Yeah, this is a nice dish.
You can serve it in anyholidays.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
It's easy to make, and with tea, and with matcha
tea Is it a dish that crossesborders Romania, Bulgaria,
Hungary and are theredifferences in the ways that
each culture prepares it, or isit more of a regional dish?

Speaker 4 (34:23):
I think there are some nuances Like, for instance,
I like it with a specialRomanian plum jam from Topolov,
which is well known in Europe,especially in the EU, but in
Istanbul, for instance, I foundit also with a Turkish delight.
So you can do that, I mean, Ican go through the ingredients,

(34:43):
but the thing is that you haveto use your hands to do it so
you can have the flour, you canhave the butter.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
You mentioned that your brother would be your
assistant.
You learned from yourgrandmother.
Is it often done in family?

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Yes, yes, it is.
I mean you need somebody topour your ingredients into a
bowl so you can mix them, andthen you know.
When you're a kid it's alwaysfun to have your hands dirty.
The idea is to make it fluffyfrom the beginning.
So the more you have, like youknow, pieces of butter and how

(35:16):
you can mix them with, you know,with a flour, with a salt, with
a bacon, so that with a lemonjuice and so on and so forth, so
it's so nice.
And then my grandmother used touse something in in the recipe.
You can use sour cream, but mymother used to put borscht.
So this is an ingredient.
Anyone from eastern europe knowswhat it is.
It's normally a dish, but thisis like a very sour thing made

(35:41):
of yeast, and you can create itand you this is how you make a
soup sour.
So you have, this is one of theingredients.
So it gives them the kick forthe dough to be fluffy and fresh
.
And then, once you mix them,you roll it, then you cut it
with a pizza knife and you havea triangle.

(36:03):
You put your jam or your Turkishdelight or wherever you want,
like on a pizza, you know, atthe larger triangle part, put
your jam or your Turkish delightor wherever you want at the
like on a pizza, you know, at alarger triangle, part of the
triangle, and then you start toroll and this is the product.
You just put it in the oven,preheat it at.
Let me see, because I don'tknow it by heart.
You always oh, by the way, youalways look at the recipe when

(36:23):
you do it.
I know the trick, but youalways have to do the regular so
you can preheat it in the ovenat 175 Celsius, which is here
it's 350 Fahrenheit.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
You have very distinct regions.
Obviously you have the BlackSea region, the Carpathian
Mountains, Transylvania, eachlittle village, or is there sort
of a national cuisine?

Speaker 4 (36:45):
or is there sort of a national cuisine?
Any Romanian cookbook wouldfeature recipes from all the
three regions.
So if you look at the map, ifyou're on SpaceX, let's say, and
you look on planet Earth andyou will see Romania, you will
see that there are three parts.
So there is the Transylvania,which is the most famous, and

(37:05):
Transylvania is influenced byAustria and Hungary.
And you have, in the south youhave Wallachia, which is more
influenced by the Balkans andthe Turks, and then in the east
side, which is closer toRepublic of Moldova, that's the
influence from Russia.
So this is something which goestogether food and language, and
culture and church.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Well, of course Transylvania is famous, and
perhaps a bit unfairly so, forthe novel, the Dracula novel,
and film.
But are there particular dishesthat are famous to Transylvania
?

Speaker 4 (37:43):
Well, you're in luck because I studied in
Transylvania.
I studied in Cluj, cluj-napoca,which is a city in the middle
of Transylvania.
So there is a dish, a specificone, which is called cabbage à
la Cluj, so it's veryRomanian-French, it's heavy with
some fat, but it's good.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Is it rolled?
My mother had a dish.
She used to make cabbage rolls,so it's not cabbage rolls.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
It's not cabbage rolls, but it's so.
It's not cabbage, it's not thecabbage.
The cabbage rolls are thesarmale.
You can find them in all thethree regions, but this is varza
a la cluj, this is how we callit in Romanian.
It's cabbage a la cluj, andit's it's an interesting one.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
And then around the Black Sea.
I imagine there's some fishing.
Are there fish dishes and arethey more popular as you get
closer to the sea?
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
So the part of Romania close to the Black Sea
it's called Dobroge.
We have there the Romanianinfluence, but also the
Bulgarian, a bit of Turkish anda bit of Tatar influence and of
course from Ukraine.
I know they have like this,dolmas, that you're talking
about the cabbage leaf, but notwith the meat but with fish, so

(38:49):
they can have it with that.
I never tried them.
I know they exist but I haven'ttried it.
I only tried like regular fish,because from the Danube and
also from the sea, because youhave the Danube Delta, everybody
goes and fishes.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
So is the Danube Delta more popular for fishing.
I mean, it's a very vast, it'svery vast, exactly, and I think
it's more popular.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
And the fish dishes are there.
We call them saramura,basically it's um, you take the
fish as a whole.
You don't do it like uh pieces.
So you take a fish as a whole,you put it on the grill and then
you soak it in a bowl full ofwater and salt and a lot of
spices, and this is how you tryto do it.

(39:31):
And the soup this one, theborscht made of fish, is also
amazing.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
A lot of soups.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
What do you flavor them with to make them a little
more sour?

Speaker 4 (39:40):
So this one that my grandmother used to use for
cornolets as well, the borscht.
So this is made from yeast andfrom wheat.
You can use it, it ferments andthen it develops.
This borscht, I think I likethe sour thing.
It's most common for the eastpart.
So this is the influence fromthe Slavs, from the Russian,

(40:03):
russian, ukrainian.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
And that I think of is more of a cold weather.
Yeah exactly, but very hearty.
You were surrounded by Slaviccultures.
Romanian is obviously a romancelanguage.
The clue is in the name.
So do you also have influencesfrom the more Western
Mediterranean Italian or Greekfood?

(40:24):
I mean, obviously you were apart of the Roman Empire,
exactly?

Speaker 4 (40:27):
Yeah, we had the Dacians, which is a branch of
the Tracians, so we wereconquered then by the Romans and
they brought the language, theculture.
We are a Latin language, butwhen Romans were there they used
the language of the soldiers,the language of the street.
So that's why there is a bit ofdifference between the Romanian

(40:50):
and Spanish, or Romanian andItalian.
It's easier for me tounderstand Italian and Spanish
rather than them to understandme.
If they see it written, yes,they understand it.
So this is a bit of difference.
And, of course, so we have thesubstrate, which is the Dacian
language.
Then we have the main part ofthe language, which is Latin,

(41:11):
and then we have additions fromthe Russian, which we find it in
the religion, in orthodoxy.
We also have from Ottomans,from Turks.
There are a couple of words.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Well, in fact, you do have an Ottoman period as well.
You mentioned the Turkishdelight.
Do you have other Turkishinfluences on the cuisine?
I think the coffee.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
This is what they brought to us the coffee and the
sweets.
If there is something that Icherish, this is what they
brought to us.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
And what about the mountain regions too, the
Carpathian?

Speaker 4 (41:47):
Mountains.
Did they have anything typicalthat they added to the cuisine?
Well, there is something whichwe also do during Christmas.
It's called pomana porculi,which means it's like pork stew.

Speaker 5 (41:59):
We use it for pork stew.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
But basically you take bites of meat with some
liver, with some like smallthings from the pork, and you
try not boil them but you keepthem on the fire, but very slow
fire.
Imagine that these used to bedone in the woods by the
shepherds and you put it outsidein a big cauldron, Exactly like
in a cauldron, and you leavethere and they simmer in a very

(42:24):
low, very slow fire and that'swhat they do in in the mountains
mostly in fact, pork is thetraditional meat, uh, that you
eat at christmas time.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yes, and is that because it's after the harvest?
Perhaps I mean on the farms,that would be the hog killing
time around the harvest festival, so you would have, yeah, that
at christmas.

Speaker 4 (42:44):
It's after the harvest and it's after the how
do you call it?
After the fasting?
So we have some fasting, soit's the Christmas fasting,
which is five weeks beforeChristmas.
We have the Easter fastingseven weeks before Easter, so
it's like Lent only at Christmastime?

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, we're Lent, and is that typical of the Eastern
Orthodox religion or is itparticular to Romania?

Speaker 4 (43:09):
I think it's typical to the Orthodox, yeah, yeah, but
the main ingredient forChristmas is pork.
For the Easter it's not arabbit, you know it's not a
Easter rabbit, but it's the lamb, I think it's.
So we cannot eat during thefasting or the land.
We cannot eat anything fromanimals.

(43:30):
So no milk, no eggs, no meat.
We can only eat vegetables.
Um, and there are for uh, forchristmas, because it's the
fasting finishes with acelebration, because you know
Christ was born.
We have each Sunday.
You can eat fish.
You prepare for a nicecelebration for the Easter,

(43:53):
because it's the death of JesusChrist.
In those seven weeks I think wehave only three times we are
allowed to eat the fish.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
And is there any particular way that the fish
would be prepared, or is that upto the family how they prefer
to prepare?

Speaker 4 (44:06):
It's up to the family how they prefer to prepare.
It's up to the family, but Iremember during old times you
preferred, if you didn't havelike during communism, if you
didn't have enough oil, then youwould use the the grill.
That was easier.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
So it depends on on the scarcity of the resources I
know at one point in your careeryou did uh study minority
groups.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
I handled the human human rights in the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs and, yeah, oneof my portfolios was the rights
of the person belonging tonational minorities in Romania.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
We have 19 of them, you have 19 ethnic groups, and I
know, of course, the Roma,obviously, and presumably some
of the surrounding countries.
Yes, so Hungarians.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Turks, Turks, Bulgarians, Tatars, Serbs,
Ukrainians, Russians especiallycloser to the Danube Delta, but
also Italians, because they usedto be there doing business
Greeks, Czechs, Slovaks.
Yeah, have they each broughttheir influence to the cuisine.

(45:11):
I think I can see the influenceof the cuisine, especially
during the holidays.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Now, of course, today , if you live in an urban area,
you can buy anything you want atthe shop year round, even when
it's out of season.
But you know, growing up in thevillages did you have certain
ways that you would cure orpreserve foods for winter, for
example.
I mean, did you learn any ofthat from your grandmother?
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (45:34):
I mean, she wouldn't have done her job if she
wouldn't have taught me.
So I grew up in the countrysideand I had everything there on
our plot.
I cried the first time I wentto the city to buy a bunch of
dill, because normally I wouldtake it from my garden.
So for winter.
It's interesting that duringautumn we always try to organize

(45:56):
ourselves for the winter, soyou know at least to have
something to eat as natural aspossible until January, february
, because then in February youalready started to find
something for the spring.
So I remember my mother puttingthe carrots and the potatoes in
the basement in a tray withsand so they can be preserved.

(46:19):
You can also put like if youtake peppers and you use a
needle and a thread on theirlittle green stuff and then you
make like a pearl string, butit's made of peppers.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
So you have a pepper string.
You would hang that in thebasement In the basement.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
So then it can.
I mean you could see that islike with a lot of they were not
fresh, but they were.
You can still have like thegood nutrients from there.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Are the peppers very spicy?

Speaker 4 (46:50):
No, not the spicy.
I don't like spicy, and I thinkthose are from our neighboring
country, bulgaria.
We have those as well, so weused to have that, but I don't
eat spice.
My grandfather used to havethat.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
And those are obviously warm weather
vegetables, so you'd have togrow them and preserve them.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
Or onions.
You could always put them inthe attic.
It was a nice thing.
It was smelling of niceingredients all over the place.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Mmm nice.
Now, which of those threeregions was your village?

Speaker 4 (47:24):
in.
It was born in Galac, which isclose to Moldova, which is also
close to the Danube.
It's like 50 kilometers fromthe border with Moldova.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
But you thought your family or your family might be
more from the east.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Yes, my grandfather used to tell me that we I mean
he knew also from hisgrandfather that apparently we
were, our family, was comingfrom the Bujak, which is closer
to Crimea.
So I have some influence in myfamily from the Mongols, from
the Tatars, and my family nameis actually something which

(48:01):
reminds me of that.
Mokhanu in Romanian means one,it's one of the synonyms to the
word shepherd, and in Mongoliawhen I visited, I asked about
this and some old guy told methat, yes, you can pronounce it
Machchan, which apparently meansalso a shepherd or somebody
that takes care of the of thesheep.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
So yeah, well, shepherding would be very, very
important everywhere, butparticularly in Mongolia.
Yeah, yeah, they know a lotabout herding.
Now, were you in Mongolia aspart of a diplomatic mission?

Speaker 4 (48:35):
I was in Mongolia, involved as an election observer
after Mongolia joined the OECD.
Oecd they were having electionsand then we this is the working
methods of the OECD to haveelection observation missions.
So in Mongolia they used to dothat, like the small bits of

(49:01):
cheese, but they would put it ontop of the yurta to, you know,
to evaporate all the water andthey would eat that whenever
they were traveling on thehorses and so on.
I tried one.
It's a bit too sour for mytaste, but yeah it was an
interesting one.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Well, that's interesting because actually you
do have the sour soups, but inKazakhstan.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
I had the horse steak .
How did it?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
taste.
Did it taste different fromother meats?
No, I didn the horse steak.
How did it taste?
Did it taste different fromother meats?

Speaker 4 (49:29):
No, I didn't know at the time.

Speaker 5 (49:30):
They told me afterward.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:32):
But you were okay with that.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yeah.
As a diplomat, you have toadapt.

Speaker 4 (49:36):
You have to yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Well, the oldest, I guess, culinary item that
Romania is known for is the wine, because your wine industry
goes back, I guess I was goingto say to the Roman Empire, but
maybe even before that wasThracia known for its winemaking
.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
Yes, it was In history.
We know that they had wines.
Then a king came and because hewanted to have his soldiers
sober, he forbid.
So he cut all the wine, all thewine plants.

(50:12):
When?

Speaker 1 (50:13):
was this, was this in the Roman times Before?
Oh, okay, so this is pre-Roman,pre-roman, yeah, oh, okay,
we're talking about 3,000 years.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
Yeah, so it was before the Romans and then with
the Romans.
Of course, the wine came backbefore the Romans and then with
the Romans.
Of course, the wine came backwhen, for instance, when we had
our skirmishes with the OttomanEmpire, wine was one of the
gifts that we were compelled togive to, you know, to the
Ottomans, as a tribute, exactlyalong other stuff, but wine was

(50:43):
part of that and I'm very proudto say that now we also have a
lot of wine cultures and winehouses and, yeah, I mean it's a
business which I wouldn't say itpays off, but it's nice to have
a good wine and to have analternative to the most famous
one, like the French or theSpanish or the Italian.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Are there particular varieties that it's famous for?
So?

Speaker 4 (51:09):
in Transylvania not that much because obviously it's
a bit higher and it's closer tothe mountains.
I'm guessing it's more of abeer culture in Transylvania.
Yeah, beer and brandy, becausePalinka brandy and the plum
brandy the Palinka is from thatpart, brandy and the plum brandy

(51:29):
the palinka is from that partin moldova, like the east part
is, it's more um red wine andsweet, sweet white wine.
In the south, because of thesun, you have more dry wine and
dobroja, for instance.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Closer to the black sea the wine is a bit dry what's
a traditional dish you mightserve in the heat of summer.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
My favorite one are pancakes with a special jam,
which it's really some.
Until now I only found it inRomania, so it's a black
cherries jam.
They're very hard to find.
It's a bit.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
it's a bit sour, but sweet at the same time, because
if it's a jam, Sour cherries,and are they hand picked picked,
I mean, from your village or doyou buy them in the store or
the shop, or both?

Speaker 4 (52:10):
uh, well, I think now you can find it in the market,
but not that much.
I remember that when I grew upin my village we had only two
trees, uh, one of them was in my, in the garden of my godfather.
So, hey, I had um, it was easyfor me to to find it um, so
pancakes done by my grandmotherwith this kind of jam.

(52:32):
Yes, okay.
And then our role as kids wasto take, because the the black
cherries are even smaller thanthe regular cherries, so our
role was to, you know, to takethe stem out.
So the pit, when you take itout, because they're black
cherries, your hands are black.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
So, kids, we would do that.
Anything where you could getmessy in the kitchen, of course
you can get messy in the kitchen.
But yeah, did you help her inthe jam making process?
No, do you know about how longit took?

Speaker 4 (53:02):
her to make the jam.
Oh, that's over three or fourhours.
It is a long process and shealways said don't come next to
the cauldron because there is asuperstition in the in.
You know in the field, when youdo a jam, not to touch it.
You know, because otherwise youmight.
It might, I don't know spoil orsomething like that.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Oh, yeah, so, and this was over a sort of cauldron
in the kitchen.
Yeah, of course, in the kitchenor outside, over a fire.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
It's better because the taste from a cauldron, the
food tastes better in thecauldron, like a big bronze
cauldron that you'd have over afire outdoors and it would
bubble away for maybe threehours.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Three, four hours, three, four hours.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
So you have jams, sour cherries, sugar, anything
else, I guess pectin, or isthere something that goes in it?
Maybe some of the lemons, justto keep it, you know, not to be
spoiled.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Nice.
So then she would make that,and then, while it's fresh,
you'd spread it on the pancakes.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
And anyway my grandma would start.
You know to stay for five hoursduring summertime with a fire.
You start at 5 am.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
You'd want to do this early in the morning.
Early in the morning, themidday heat.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
So that's why I wouldn't be there, because at 5
am I'm not waking up.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Excellent.
Well, this was really lovely.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Thank you again for including Romania on this
journey, which is so importantin our lives, not only the
diplomatic, but all the lives.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
It is very important Cultural diplomacy, but also
just to be able to share yourculture with others.
So, yeah, well, thank you forjoining us at the Delegates
Lounge.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Thank, you for having me.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
From Romania we slip through the narrow Bosphorus
Strait to Greece, where thecuisine comes with a dash of
ancient philosophy.
Mary Vax of Vanadu, the publicdiplomacy chief at the Greek
consulate in New York,emphasizes that their cuisine is
not only regarded as one of thetastiest, but also as one of
the healthiest in the worldbecause of its emphasis on fresh

(55:10):
ingredients like olive oil,fruits and vegetables, lean
proteins and aromatic herbs.
She wrote the following about atypical Greek savory dish olive
pie called spanakopita.
The name derives from the Greekwords spanaki, spinach and pita
pie.
It combines a flaky phyllodough, creamy filling and

(55:32):
aromatic herbs and can be servedas either an appetizer or as a
main course.
Spanakopita can be traced backto the gastronomic practices of
ancient Greece, and one of thefirst references to it comes
from the 5th century BC, poetPhiloxenus, who wrote of a
similar dish being served at theend of a banquet.

(55:53):
Athenos, a Greek gastronomistand orator of the 2nd century AD
, wrote that the ancient Greeksmade bread in various shapes to
be offered as sacrifices to thegods.
Spinach originated in theMiddle East and arrived in
Europe by way of the ByzantineEmpire.
To make the perfect Spanakopita, you'll need phyllo dough, a

(56:17):
thin, flaky pastry dough thatyou can find in the frozen
section of most grocery storesfresh spinach, feta cheese,
onions, herbs such as dill,spearmint and parsley, and olive
oil.
Herbs such as dill, spearmintand parsley, and olive oil.
After cooking the spinach andsautéing the onions in olive oil
, you'll combine the mixture andspread it between layers of the

(56:38):
phyllo dough brushed with yetmore olive oil, and then bake it
in a preheated oven untilgolden brown.

(57:00):
Bulgaria, which lies betweenGreece and Romania, shares a
similar history and culinarytradition with its Balkan
neighbors.
However, as Andrea noted,bulgarian dishes tend to be
spicier.
Bulgarian cuisine puts moreemphasis on paprika, vinegar,
garlic and hot peppers.
Bulgarian holidays, celebratingthe emergence from winter into
summer, begin in March and lastthroughout the warm season.

(57:20):
As Bulgarian diplomat SvetozarDimitrov explains, he is a first
secretary at Bulgaria'spermanent mission to the United
Nations in New York, focused onsocial, humanitarian and
cultural issues.
Svetozar Dimitrov, thank youfor joining us in the Delegates'

(57:46):
Lounge.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Thank you, Alex.
It's a pleasure to meet you aswell.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
Thank you, alex.
It's a pleasure to meet you aswell.
I do want to thank you forgreeting us and your
particularly lovely mission tothe United Nations.
Unlike many of the missions,it's not right next to the
United Nations.
We're way up here, next to theMetropolitan Museum of Art.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
It is a bit further away from the UN than a lot of
other missions, but I think whatit lacks in convenience, it
compensates for with itshistoric qualities and its
beauty.
It's an early 20th centuryGilded Age mansion.
It's known as the BenjaminSands Mansion and the mansion
was designed featuring some veryelegant limestone detailing.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
I assume your government bought it sometime
after your government joined theUnited Nations.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Indeed, bulgaria joined the United Nations in
1955.
So we're actually celebratingour 70th anniversary, and the
building was purchased in thelate 1960s.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
It really is lovely, because this is the special
Midsummer edition for Bulgaria,because you have a longer warm
season.
You have not one, but a wholestring of summer holidays from
March to July.
Isn't that right?
And does each one have its owncharacteristics?
Each holiday?

Speaker 3 (58:58):
So I would say that we start our string of holidays
in March before we get to thesummer holidays.
The first big spring holiday isBaba Marta Day.
It literally translates Babameans grandmother, so it's
grandmother March Day or grannyMarch Day, and it's quite a

(59:20):
popular old pagan holiday that'scelebrated mostly in Bulgaria
and it symbolizes the arrival ofspring.
So on March 1st Bulgariansexchange martinitsi, which are
these little red and whitebracelets or tassels.
It doesn't matter how they'reshaped.
Sometimes they're also shapedlike little people and you can

(59:42):
put them on with a synonym.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Perhaps granny represents the winter.
I mean, that's really when yougo from winter to spring in
March.
It's more of a metaphor.
Yes, it's more of a metaphor.
Yes, More of a metaphor, okay.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
What comes next is Sirni Zagovizni.
This is another festival thatmarks the beginning of Lent and
it's celebrated, I think, aboutseven weeks before Easter.
It's a very beautiful holiday,which in some ways could be
connected or compared toThanksgiving in the US.
But instead of saying thanks,you ask for forgiveness.
You say sorry, forgive me if Ihave done anything wrong to you,
and then and then people willnormally say of course you're

(01:00:18):
forgiven, even though there isnothing to forgive.
Um, it's also a time when uh,especially in villages, people
will light up big fires andwe'll have folk dances around
them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Bonfires you mean like a big bonfire in the center
of the village?

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Yes, big bonfires exactly so when you're driving
through the countryside at nighton that night, you can often
see big bonfires everywhere.
One of the traditions that'sassociated with that holiday is
that people dress up in animalfurs and they wear big bells to
ward off the evil spirits.
So they parade around thevillages and towns like this,

(01:00:56):
warding off the evil spirits andum do they?
Wear masks.
They do wear masks and they'resupposed to be quite scary,
usually like halloween.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Yes and um I've heard that you have a tradition of
fire walking, and at midsummer.
Is that still true, or is thatmore of an old folk tradition?

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
We do have a tradition of fire walking.
It's practiced nowadays.
It's been preserved mostly inthe Stranja mountain.
The Stranja mountain is a verybeautiful, relatively small
mountain with a lot of oak treesthat borders the southernmost
section of the Bulgarian BlackSea coast.
On its eastern side it's quitesparsely populated.

(01:01:36):
One of the villages where it'smost preserved and they have a
festival every year is calledBulgari, which, as you can guess
, also means Bulgarians, so it'sthe village of Bulgari, and
have a fire walking festivalthere.
It's walking on coals actually,not fire.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
But they're hot coals .
They are hot coals and theyhave nothing on their feet to
protect their feet.
They're walking barefoot overhot coals.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
They are walking barefoot, normally carrying an
icon.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Oh, so there is a religious aspect to it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Well, this is probably a contentious issue for
some, because I believe thechurch is not a very big fan of
these firewalking traditions.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Because it sounds like there's a little bit of a
pagan element, like it may havepredated the Christianization.
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
It's most certainly a pagan.
It's most certainly a pagantradition.
Easter and St George's Day,which tend to be pretty close on
the calendar, is a time whenBulgarians will often prepare
roast lamb at home, so this is atime when you're eating a lot
of roast lamb.
There's also a traditionalpastry for Easter called kuzunak

(01:02:49):
, a sweet pastry.
It's a.
It's a braided sweet bread,basically, um.
It's sometimes infused withlemon zest or raisins, and it's
often sprinkled with sugar ontop.
Um, I I don't know if itsymbolizes anything per se, but
it is something that's uh,that's usually um, consumed for

(01:03:09):
easter and and during,throughout and during that whole
period.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Do you know um what the preparation is like?
Like?
Is this something that takesseveral hours to prepare and the
family would be there, the oris it relatively easy?
Do you know?

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
I wouldn't say it's easy, it's um, it's, it's one of
those, uh, it's one of thosebreads that require very fine
flour, so I think it takes a bitof sifting.
There's also a more modernsummer midsummer tradition, if
you will, which is also worthnoting it's called July morning.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Morning, as in grieving or as in waking up.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Morning, as in waking up early in the morning.
You could call it acounterculture tradition.
I think it started in the 70s,perhaps so definitely a bit of a
hippie association, and ittakes place on the last night of
June, so June 30th, and intothe morning of July 1st.

(01:04:12):
It's generally seen assomething that was inspired by
Uriah Heep's rock song JulyMorning, and people will gather
on the Black Sea coast thatevening on June 30th to welcome
the sunrise, celebrate freedom,hope and new beginnings.
To welcome the sunrise,celebrate freedom, hope and new

(01:04:34):
beginnings.
It's a nice, slightlyrebellious and optimistic.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Kind of a modern, hippie version of the
traditional.
It sounds a lot like theMidsummer celebration, but with
a modern twist.
Of course the Midsummercelebration predated
Christianization.
It was in a way a bit hippie inthat it was a folk, druid,

(01:05:00):
pagan tradition.
So you know, maybe whatever isold is new again.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
That's very true.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Now, I did want to talk about the cuisine, and we
can start with summer cuisine.
You don't have to limityourself to it.
And I'm wondering how regionalit is as well, because you have
the Black Sea coast, you havethe Danube, which traverses your
country.
It goes all the way from theBlack Forest to the Black Sea,
and then you have mountainregions.

(01:05:27):
So is there a great differencein what you might eat this time
of year whether you're near theBlack Sea or whether you're in
the mountains?

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
Well, there are some regional differences, but you
know some regional specialties,but I would say some of the
foods that are most popularthroughout the country are
generally to be found everywhere.
One such summer there's asummer cold soup which is called
tarator.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Oh, that's lovely.
Tell me how you'd prepare it.
A cold soup sounds deliciousright now.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
It's really great when it's warm, and Bulgaria
does get pretty hot in July andAugust.
It has pretty simpleingredients.
You need some Bulgarian yogurt,and I'm highlighting Bulgarian
before yogurt, because othertypes of yogurt that are often
sold in the US, for example, orabroad, don't taste quite the

(01:06:26):
same.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
I know comparisons are difficult between countries,
but is Bulgarian yogurt similarto Greek yogurt which we could
find in the US?

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
It's somewhat similar to Greek style or Greek yogurt,
but it's a bit less thick andit's a bit more zesty.
It has a slightly more lemonytaste, in a good way, so it's
not unpleasantly sour, but it'sfresher so it's not unpleasantly
sour, but it's, it's fresher.

(01:06:55):
So how do you prepare thatsummer soup?
Um, so, for the summer soup,you need some bulgarian yogurt.
You need, you need a cucumbertypically typically one of those
longer, thinner englishcucumbers is what I, what they
call them in the us, I think, uh, you don't, you don't want the
small ones with the big seedsand then you need a bit of
garlic, a bit of salt, and whatyou do is you dice the cucumber,

(01:07:16):
you put the little bits ofcucumber in a bowl, then,
separately, you mix in someBulgarian yogurt with water so
that you dilute it to aconsistency that's probably a
bit thinner than a thick soup,but thicker than bouillon, and
you put that on top of thecucumber, you mix them in and
you add a bit of garlic paste, abit of salt, a bit of dill and

(01:07:42):
then some olive oil.
So it's really simple, and whenyou consume it in summer, what
people will often do is they'llput a few ice cubes in it just
to make it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
So at no point is it heated and you'll chill it maybe
right before serving with theice cubes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
It's probably a good idea to chill it and keep it in
the fridge for a bit beforeserving, but you don't have to.
You could also just add icecubes, or you could do both.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
It sounds very refreshing for the hot weather
months.
You do export wine to the US,correct?

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Well, yes, there are individual wineries that export
wine to the US and worldwide.
Some of the most traditionalgrape varieties in Bulgaria,
such as Mavrud Melnik andDimiatar, are red.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Do you have other traditions as well?
Beer making spirits?

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
sometimes countries have a particular liqueur that
they're associated with so themost traditional um liquor, I
would say, is rakia, which a lotof I I've noticed that when I
mention rakia to a lot of people, the response that I frequently
get is oh you know, I've triedor have heard of, heard of
Turkish rakhi, but even thoughthere's a similarity in the

(01:08:53):
names, those are completelydifferent drinks Completely
different.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
Are they made from different fruits or what is it
derived from?

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
So Turkish rakhi is a bit like Greek ouzo, so it's
more of an aniseed-flavoreddrink, whereas Bulgarian we also
have that we call that mastika.
And actually bulgarian mastikais um has this very typical
trait, which is that, unlike uzo, which when you dilute when you

(01:09:20):
dilute uzo with water it turnswhite, uh.
But when you dilute bulgarianmastika with water, um, as
you're supposed to do to drinkit it turns into a, it looks
crystalline, it looks likethere's little crystals in the
glass.
So that's quite unique about it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
So is that sort of a national drink, would you say,
in Bulgaria?

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
I wouldn't say that's the national drink, but it is a
drink that's quite popular,especially during the summer.
But the more national drink israkia and that's brandy.
That's often popular,especially during the summer.
But the more national drink israkia and that's brandy.
That's often made from grapes,but it can also be made from
plums or pears or apples evenand I've heard that back in the
day plum rakia used to be morepopular.

(01:10:05):
But in the last, let's say, 40or 50 years, grape rakia has
really come to dominate themarket and people's tastes and a
lot of people in villages andsmall towns will produce their
own grapes.
And then one interesting aspectis that Bulgarian villages often

(01:10:26):
have a communal rakia-makingfacility oh really which they
share, and for a very small feeyou can bring your own grapes
there and brew your own rakia.
And it's hard liquor.
It's the same strength, more orless as whiskey and it's not a
sweet liquor.
It's sort of similar likewhiskey but it has more of a

(01:10:47):
grape taste.
As far as I just wanted to addabout the beer, that beer making
in Bulgaria started afterliberation from the Ottoman
Empire, which was in the late19th century, 1878.
And I believe it was brought byCzech businessmen in Bulgaria.
There were a lot of Czechs whomoved to Bulgaria after it was

(01:11:07):
newly liberated, and they were,they played an important role in
many fields of cultural andbusiness life in this newly
re-established country.
And it's important to point outthat it was newly
re-established and notestablished, because otherwise
Bulgaria is a very old country.
It was officially recognized inits current location in the

(01:11:28):
Balkans since 681 AD, so in the1980s we celebrated 13 centuries
of existing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
So you have some traditions that you got, you
would say, from the Ottoman interms of cuisine, but some of
them obviously predate thearrival of the Ottomans to the
region?

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
Probably, and I don't think there's enough enough
records and it's very difficultto prove.
I think in Southeastern Europeand in the Balkans there are
always these little argumentsbetween neighbors about who what
comes from whom and who is therightful owner or founder to you
know different foods.
Actually, one interesting storyin that context is that there's

(01:12:16):
a very popular Bulgarian saladcalled Shopska Salata, and this
is named after the people, shopi, who live mostly in the area
around Sofia, the capital cityof Bulgaria.
It's known as the Shopluk, orthe region where the Shops, the
Shopi, live, a salad which, ofcourse, many Bulgarians who are

(01:12:40):
not aware of its history alsothink that it's a traditional
salad.
But it's even funnier thatpeople in other countries often
claim that it is traditional totheir countries, whereas in fact
this is a 20th century recipethat was invented by the
state-owned tourist board inBulgaria called Balkan Tourists

(01:13:01):
in the 1950s.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
It was the state-run tourism board and what are the
ingredients and why do peoplethink it's so old?

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
The ingredients are very simple and very typical.
It's diced cucumber tomato, abit of onion, a bit of pepper,
and the most popular peppersthat we use for this in Bulgaria
are these light, pale greenpeppers that are a bit like

(01:13:29):
banana peppers, but they'resweet, they're not like
jalapenos.
This is topped with finelygrated Bulgarian white cheese or
feta cheese on top, and there'sof course, a bit of olive oil
and salt and red vinegar.
That's very Mediterranean, veryregional, so of course the

(01:13:49):
ingredients are very typical forthe whole region, but this
particular salad with the gratedcheese is and particularly some
of your favorites.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
If there are some that you remember growing up
your mother or grandmothermaking, or have you ever helped
them bake them in the kitchen?
I don't know if little boys areinto that, but maybe there are
some memories you have around,particular cultural favorites.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
Well, I certainly did help out in the kitchen when I
was a kid and I've I've um, youknow, I I do cook.
Nowadays.
There's a very nice spreadcalled Keopulu.
The main ingredients that gointo Keopulu are eggplant, and
you certainly need the most ofthat.
In addition to that, you needbell peppers, tomatoes.
So, for example, you might take1.5 pounds of eggplant, two

(01:14:36):
bell peppers and then twotomatoes, and the best tomatoes
you could use are the so-calledRoma tomatoes, the ones that are
often used for canning as well,because they're not excessively
juicy.
But if you don't have those,you could use any tomatoes
really.
And then you'd need a couple ofgarlic cloves that you mince,
some fresh parsley that you chop, olive oil, red wine, vinegar,

(01:14:57):
salt and maybe a bit of blackpepper, and that's it.
It's a very easy recipe.
You're supposed to grill orbroil the peppers and the
eggplant until their skins arecharred peppers in the eggplant
until their skins are charred.
And then an interesting sidestory about that is that
Bulgarians living in villageswill often char these on top of

(01:15:19):
a sheet of metal that they justplace over an open fire, and
it's a beautiful smell.
It just smells like roastpeppers.
It's very, very rich and verypleasant.
It's quite a summer smell aswell.
It's one of the mostrepresentative cultural and this
is something that's eatenthroughout the whole country.
It's not just the Black Seacoast, you know.
You have the same thing inSofia and Plovdiv, in the south

(01:15:41):
of the country or anywhere, butcontemporary city people who
don't have the opportunity tostart an open fire and cook
things on top of a sheet ofmetal.
So there's a contraption calledCusco Peck, which literally
translates as pepper roaster,pepper baker, and you plug it in

(01:16:01):
and it contains a ceramiccylinder and usually it has
space for one, two or threepeppers or for one eggplant does
achieve that same charredeffect that you would otherwise
need an open fire for.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
What are the different varieties of fish that
you take from the Black?

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Sea, black Sea is, and I'm going to veer away from
food for just a second here,because, the Black Sea has a
very interesting.
It's a very fascinating setup.
It's not quite like the DeadSea, which is all salt, but it
has layers and the bottom layerconsists of denser, saltier

(01:16:41):
water that comes in from theAegean and the Mediterranean and
it somehow flows under thelighter, fresher water that
comes from big rivers like theDanube.
So it's an undercurrent of saltwater, of real sea salt water
it's something like anundercurrent, but what that does
is that it prevents theselayers from mixing, and so the

(01:17:03):
deep layers of the Black Seaactually don't have any oxygen,
which is great if you're a diverlooking for ancient shipwrecks,
because they are very wellpreserved even wooden ships from
thousands of years ago areperfectly well preserved but
it's less great if you're a fish, because of course, you need
oxygen to to live if you're afish.
So so most of the fish in theblack sea live in the upper

(01:17:25):
layers of the sea, which is whyit's a bit there's a bit less
variety as far as as far as fish, compared to other big oceans
Compared to, say, theMediterranean.
Compared to the Mediterranean,for example, but still the fish
that you do find is really great.
So some of the varieties thatare fished are Sprat Horse,
macarelle, bonito.
I suppose the kind of the kingor queen of the Black Sea fish

(01:17:50):
is a black sea turbot, which isa flat fish living on the bottom
.
Then there's bluefish, which isquite popular, and even things
like garfish, which I think inGarfish, garfish is a very
interesting elongated, very nice.
I've heard that in some partsof the world they avoid it
because, uh, because its bonesare actually have this greenish,

(01:18:13):
bluish hue, oh, um, and I've,uh, I've read that you know, in
some parts of the world theydidn't think that was appetizing
, um, but it is actually a very,very tasty fish when it's
barbecued, for example now youeat all of those varieties we've
all those varieties.
Um, there's even uh, the blacksea even has these little sharks
which are edible.

(01:18:34):
Oh yeah, they're very smallsharks, they don't attack humans
.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
They live in the Black Sea or Dranean.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
I wanted to add about the music.
I wanted to add that Bulgariais a very rich folk music
tradition.
Our folk music is still.
You know, it's not a museumexhibit, it's something that's
still part of life.
One of the most iconicBulgarian folk songs is a song
from the Rodopi Mountains in thesouth of the country.
It's called Izlel et DeliuHaidutin, which literally

(01:19:04):
translates as Deliu therevolutionary has gone out.
The reason why it's so wellknown is because when the
Voyager capsule was sent intospace I think in the 7th,
potentially by NASA theyincluded a golden record like a
vinyl record but made out ofmetal, and this particular folk

(01:19:25):
song from Bulgaria was includedas one of what NASA thought was
one of the most representativecultural sounds of Earth.
Wow, so it is somewhere inspace.
You can check where the Voyageris right now.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
So if aliens from outer space ever discover the
Voyager, they will hear that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
So potentially there's some aliens enjoying
Bulgarian folk music.
Who knows?

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Svetozar, thank you for joining us in the Delegates
Lounge.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
Thank you, alex, it's been my pleasure Satsang with

(01:20:33):
Mooji.

Speaker 5 (01:20:33):
I do need, I do need, and that's it from the
Delegates Lounge.
We'd like to thank our esteemedguests, who have graciously

(01:20:54):
allowed us to share theirhard-earned insights into what
really matters.
And then there's you, ourlisteners, who we hope are
sufficiently edified to clamourfor more of the same.
Do drop in for a weekly episodeon Thursday, or from time to
time if we're on the road, forspecial events, in which case
there'll be a bonus episode.
Subscribe wherever you listento podcasts and if you like what
you've heard, please take amoment to rate or review the

(01:21:15):
show, as it helps others whoshare your abiding interest in
world affairs to find their wayto the Delegates Lounge.
You can connect with us on manypopular social media platforms
or reach out to us directly atinfothedelicatesloungecom.
We're a small team so we can'trespond to every message, but we
will read them.
Our show this week was writtenand produced by the host and by
yours truly executive producerFrank Radford.

(01:21:37):
No-transcript.

(01:29:36):
¶¶.
¶¶.
© transcript Emily Beynon.

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