December 31, 2024 • 48 mins
Welcome back to the second part of our culinary special podcast miniseries: “Dining with a Dozen Diplomats.” Discover how joining together over a simmering pot of gumbo or carving a roast lamb can bridge cultural divides and foster diplomacy. Above all, get ready for some practical tips on hosting with warmth and creativity, even when things don't go according to plan. In the first episode, in our playlist below, our host J. Alex Tarquinio elicited recipes and reminisces from foreign ministers and permanent representatives, so-called because they lead their country’s Permanent Mission to the United Nations. In this episode, we continue the conversation with ambassadors and with the president of the United Nations Delegations Spouse’s Club, as we delve deep into the secret sauce of gastrodiplomacy.
Contributors:
The Delegates Lounge
J. Alex Tarquinio (host). @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge
Australia
H.E. Rebecca Bryant, Deputy Permanent Representative of Australia to the United Nations. @BecsBry @AustraliaUN
Malta
H.E. Vanessa Frazier, Permanent Representative of Malta to the United Nations. @_VanessaFrazier @MaltaUNMission
United States
H.E. Linda Thomas-Greenfield, Permanent Representative of the United States of America for Special Political Affairs in the United Nations. @USUN
Zambia
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo, President of the United Nations Delegations Spouse’s Club and of the United Nations African Ambassadors Spouses Group; spouse of H.E. Dr. Chola Milambo, Permanent Representative of Zambia to the United Nations. https://www.facebook.com/UNDWCNewyork/
References
The host mentioned her essay about soft power in Foreign Policy:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/06/russia-ukraine-soft-power-culture-diplomacy-fellas-nafo/
U.S. President Richard Nixon ate with chopsticks at a banquet given in his honor by Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai in 1972. It’s an example of gastrodiplomacy making an impact on world history.
https://www.docsteach.org/documents/document/nixon-chopsticks
Visit our website to discover some of the recipes suggested in episodes one and two of our culinary special, “Dining with a Dozen Diplomats.”
Credits:
Music: Adobe Stock
Photo: United States National Archives/Nixon White House Photographs series, February 26, 1972. United States President Richard Nixon using chopsticks during a Chinese banquest hosted by Premier Zhou Enlai of the People's Republic of China.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J. Alex Tarquinio (00:08):
Welcome to the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts, almost20 hours of sunlight during the
(00:45):
day.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (00:47):
It makes those berries, especially
the wild ones, very, very tasty.
J. Alex Tarquinio (00:52):
Blood sausage .
So we are using the blood andthen we make sausages from that.
If I'm going to explain how wedo that, though I think nobody
wants to eat that.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (01:02):
that though I think nobody wants to
eat that.
There's one that we call rep,which I would liken to collard
greens, kale, chamomile, spinachand many others.
We take pride in drying foodwhen we have it in abundance.
J. Alex Tarquinio (01:18):
Rabanadas are the proof that nothing goes to
waste in Portuguese cuisine,because you can use bread
leftovers in this dessert.
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (01:28):
Its history is linked to shepherds
who spent long hours in themountains.
Legend has it that one of themgot tired of the usual bread and
cheese.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (01:38):
It's a real favorite and it's messy,
but it's delicious in bothsummer and the winter pretty
pears are everywhere, everywhere.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa (01:48):
Another thing that you pick when you're
walking as well, as long as youhave some gloves welcome back
to our culinary special diningwith a dozen diplomats.
J. Alex Tarquinio (02:01):
if you haven't listened to part one yet
, tune in on our playlist for asmorgasbord of recipes from
Australia, brazil, cyprus,czechia, estonia, finland, malta
, portugal, slovenia,switzerland, the United States
and Zambia.
These recipes were shared, asyou've just heard, by a variety
(02:21):
of high-level governmentministers and ambassadors.
Now, in part two, we'll delvedeep into the intricacies of
diplomatic dining, and we haveone more very special recipe to
share.
But first a word ongastro-diplomacy, our word of
the day.
Simply put, this is but onevariety of soft power, which
refers to the various ways thatnations use their cultural
(02:44):
influence to strengthen tieswith other capitals.
In the broadest sense,gastro-diplomacy refers to the
visceral persuasion of anational cuisine to improve a
nation's standing withforeigners.
Diplomats abroad, for example,often exchange foodstuffs
representative of their culturewith their counterparts from
other countries.
In the narrowest sense,gastro-diplomacy is the
(03:07):
influence a nation'srepresentatives can wield at the
dinner table or, as we'll learn, while chopping onions in a
steamy kitchen or carving up aroast lamb.
History has been made at thedinner table.
Arguably there's a directhistorical thread stretching
more than 50 years, from USPresident Richard Nixon eating
his dinner with chopsticks at abanquet hosted by Chinese
(03:27):
Premier Zhou Enlai, togeopolitics today, and you don't
have to take our word for it.
Our show notes include a linkto the photo of that bygone
Chinese dinner in the USNational Archives, along with a
link to my foreign policy essayon soft power.
Frank Radford (04:13):
President, joe Biden's ambassador to the United
Nations, and oh yeah, walk yourfeet at this little.
J. Alex Tarquinio (04:25):
President, joe Biden's ambassador to the
United Nations, lindaThomas-Greenfield, known
affectionately to her team asLTG, has her own spin on
gastro-diplomacy she calls itgumbo-diplomacy.
Greenfield, who refers toherself as a Louisianac
cuisinier, grew up in the BayouState, where this hearty soup is
extremely popular.
(04:45):
The United States held therotating Security Council
presidency in December asGreenfield was preparing to end
her tenure at the UN, so we'repleased that she took time out
of her busy schedule to shareher personal gumbo recipe and a
few words about the dish.
Gumbo preparation takes time,the ambassador told us in a
recent email, and over thecourse of her career she has
made a point to invite othersinto the process, including
(05:08):
foreign diplomats, to help chopcelery or onions, for example.
Working together like this, shesays, breaks the ice.
It opens doors to sometimesdifficult conversations.
She often says that gumbodiplomacy, as she calls it,
works all the time because itmakes people comfortable and
helps build relationships.
And, of course, gumbo makes fora delicious meal, and so she's
(05:30):
happy to share her recipe withour listeners.
You'll find the ambassador'sgumbo recipe on our website,
along with many of the recipesin the first part of the Dining
with Diplomats culinary special.
Her recipe serves 10 to 12, anideal number for a diplomatic
dinner.
This gumbo recipe takes fourhours to prepare, so when she
pulls diplomats in the kitchen,they'd better be prepared to
(05:51):
clear their calendars for theafternoon.
The ingredient list calls fortwo pounds of andouille sausage,
a staple of Louisiana cookery,but if you can't find this in
your local shops, then you maysubstitute any smoked sausage.
Combine that with two pounds ofshrimp and two pounds of
skinless chicken breasts cut upinto chunks.
The soup is packed with yellowonions, celery, green bell
(06:12):
peppers, tomatoes, garlic, okra,creole seasoning and
Louisiana's very own Tabascosauce.
Frank Radford (06:21):
She makes gumbo, put hair on your chest.
Her creole crawfish Are thebest.
You'll be hooked on for life Ifyou taste a single spoon.
You're gonna need it when yougo Dancing under that bio-moon.
(06:49):
Dancing under that bio-moon.
Dancing under that bio-moon,dancing under that bayou moon,
dancing under the bayou moon,dancing under the bayou moon.
(07:14):
You're gonna need it when yougo Dancing under the bayou moon.
J. Alex Tarquinio (07:25):
From the sultry Louisiana bayou, we're
venturing to the craggy shoresof Malta, land of medieval
knights and Mediterraneancuisine.
We recently sat down with theIsland Nation's UN envoy in her
office near the United Nationsheadquarters in New York.
Vanessa Frazier is Malta'spermanent representative to the
United Nations, a title thatsimply means she is the top
(07:47):
diplomat representing hercountry's permanent mission to
the UN.
As you'll hear in this episode,the ambassadors acting as their
country's UN permanentrepresentative, better known as
the PR, change all the time.
Typically, they stay about fouryears, but these are political
appointments so they can alterwith the government back home.
(08:08):
Each year, five member statesare elected to two year terms on
the UN Security Council.
The 10 elected members,collectively called the E10,
serve alongside the fivepermanent Security Council
members, better known as the P5.
Ambassador Fraser was wrappingup her term as one of the E10
when we spoke and she met withus between the morning and
(08:30):
afternoon Security Councilsessions.
As you'll hear, this time wasusually reserved for working
lunches and it was her only freeafternoon in mid-December.
Some of her best memories ofserving on the Council have been
the monthly lunches with theSecretary General, often
referred to as the SG Diplomacyis almost as fond of acronyms as
(08:51):
the military.
In the first part of thisspecial, ambassador Fraser
described her favorite Maltesedishes and the archipelago's
wine and spirits, includingBaitra, a sweet liqueur made
from prickly pears.
That's one of the gifts thatshe gives to her counterparts
from other countries torepresent the best of Malta.
Here's the second half of ourconversation.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milamb (09:19):
I find this podcast very
interesting because actuallyfood is a very important way to
break the ice with people, andyou know there are times when we
would be in meetings or even,you know, around the council
table, where it is very heatedand we might be on opposite ends
but we can actually eattogether.
J. Alex Tarquinio (09:38):
So that part is is key well, there's a's a
whole conversation about hardpower and soft power.
We all know what hard power is,but I have written about soft
power in other guises.
But gastro diplomacy can bevery important to diplomacy
itself, which is why I wonderedif you knew of any world history
(10:00):
that had been made you knowwhere they had difficulty
agreeing on a treaty.
And then I know this hashappened.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (10:11):
Sit down to to a good meal together
, and they finally come to anagreement.
you know, because for somepeople, when we have ministerial
meetings, there's always thedinner, absolutely, which is
which is not the open session,it is more restricted, and then
and all of us experts areoutside and advisors waiting,
waiting, waiting for ourministers or prime ministers to
go out and say we agreed,marriage is compromise and
(10:31):
invariably it is at the dinnerof a conference where somehow
you find some compromise onsomething.
So I've seen it happen many,many, many times Are the
ministerial dinners more formal?
J. Alex Tarquinio (10:47):
I mean, obviously work gets done, the
work is different.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (10:52):
It is around the table For the
food.
You're not reading out of ascript.
There is a dialogue, youexplain yourself, you interact,
you ask questions, you do backand forth, and manners always
prevail, right.
So you are going to be lessrude.
You're not going to write aboutit.
Oh you're saying rubbish.
We have the respect for thehost and for the others around
(11:16):
the table, so it does make a bigdifference.
You can do a lot.
J. Alex Tarquinio (11:21):
I imagine it can be kind of startling seeing
people who've been know atloggerheads in the consultations
you know behind closed doorsbut the security council then
see them over dinner or you knowbreaking bread and sort of
laughing we also need to be.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mil (11:35):
It's very important that we're able
to distinguish between the, youknow, the personal relationship
and the professionalrelationship.
Also Because we have as careerdiplomats.
We have all been in situationswhere we have maybe had to make
a statement that we're notexactly in agreement with, but
it's our government positions,right, but you really cannot
(11:56):
blame the person that isdelivering the message.
So there is in these, in inners, there is the opportunity also
to get to know the person and toestablish the personal
relationship.
And then there's a personalrelationship which could then
change policy because, um, eachambassador, especially here at
the un, you know these are thehighest ranking diplomats of
(12:19):
every country, so they haveinfluence with their capitals.
So when you have theopportunity to bring your case,
you know, at a more informal,personal level, to an ambassador
where maybe countries have beenat loggerheads, I mean they
could influence the policy incapitals after having had
certain arguments and alsobecause there's a personal
(12:39):
relationship, you know.
So it is very important and Ihave seen ambassadors change
policy.
I have influenced decisionstaken in my capital also has a
good diplomatic dinner.
ever changed history, I do thinkso very much, maybe not you
know a specific dinner, but aseries of them for sure.
(13:02):
It is so important for us to beable to interact with each
other at a best and human level,not only to be, you know,
around the working table, butwhen you're sharing food and
you're talking about, oh, I likethis, and this reminds me of a
dish that we have at home, or wewould never have this, or we
would cook it and we have rabbit, but we would not bake it, but
we would fry it.
So you know, the conversationsare different and you get to
(13:25):
know people on a different level.
They've been very important.
When you build those personalrelationships, then you can
really build important bridges.
So I think it is very important.
I have been a bilateralambassador all my career, except
when I came here to the UN, andit's incredible how many
(13:46):
lunches and dinners we have, butit is very important.
At the beginning I had found itvery difficult because I would
say you really don't have tofeed me if you need to ask me
something, you know.
But I understand the importanceof the, of the interaction,
that it's a different type ofinteraction.
We really are a family andmultilateral in diplomacy and it
(14:08):
is important.
It is important to learn aboutother cultures.
It opens up avenues for otherdiscussions and I have been at
dinners and I have gone todinners with the intention to
raise a specific thing.
When it is in a more casual,friendly and family especially
when you have dinners inresidences, not in restaurants,
(14:29):
so you're actually in somebody'shome it does make a big
difference.
It is important in diplomacyvery much.
J. Alex Tarquinio (14:35):
I always thought it was a great misnomer
that you're called a permanentrepresentative.
Of course you represent thepermanent mission, but the
permanent representatives areanything, but they change all
the time.
As soon as they've presentedtheir credentials, the other
ambassadors will invite them,and are these mostly one-on-one?
Like you will invite them backto the residence, or are there
grand dinners for them?
(14:55):
How does that work?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (14:57):
So new ambassadors do like to do a
round.
Of course, first thing thatthey would ask their PAs to do
would be to set up a number ofcourtesy visits to ambassadors,
and then it would depend on whattheir priorities would be.
Normally, you would meet withthe dean who's the oldest
(15:17):
ambassador, your geographicfamily, the heads of the
geography, and then you wouldwork your way until you've tried
to meet as many as possibleindividually.
But each country would decidewhich ambassadors to meet first,
depending on what theirpriorities would be.
J. Alex Tarquinio (15:37):
It sounds almost like ripples in a pool,
like you throw in a stone.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (15:40):
and first they meet with their
regional colleagues and thenSimilar interests, but if you're
on specific committees orwhatever, so it really would
depend on the individual country.
And then there also isambassadors who invite new
ambassadors, so we like to do it.
Even you know, amongst the EUwe see each other.
We have our EU ambassadorsmeeting every Tuesday, so we
(16:03):
immediately meet new ambassadors.
But it is nice to welcome fromother regional groups.
When there's a new African orAsian ambassador, it's nice to
have them meet with some of youknow, some key members of our
group, just to help themunderstand our positions, for us
to understand what theirpriorities will be, how we can
collaborate and to build afriendship.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:28):
Well, in fact and I think people outside of
the UN possibly don't understandhow regional it is because you
need, as a region, to work outthings such as appointments to
committees and who will run forthis, and everything is sort of
apportioned geographically.
Those might be the level ofthings that you might work at at
a luncheon and when you have um, your counterparts around to
your home.
I assume you have a specialdining area.
(16:49):
Do you put out special china?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (16:51):
are there things that represent
malta on the table with our,with our coat of arms on it and
you know the everything theflatware, the crystal.
Normally we would like to servemaltese wine also, which is not
easy.
We don't get it.
So you know, some countries arelucky chile, or they can buy
wine locally.
We cannot, we receive shipmentsfrom malta, but we do like to
(17:15):
promote the best of malta, um,and that is, you know, our food
and our wine is part of ourculture you know, at the UN you
take a break between 1 and 3,there's pretty much a break, at
least with the public events.
J. Alex Tarquinio (17:27):
I assume that's because many we go to
lunch.
Yeah, many things are workedout over lunch meetings.
Yes, we have a lot.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (17:33):
So , the.
Un work is from 10 till 1 andthen from 3 to 6.
Those are the official UN hours,but 1.15 to 2.45 is the lunch
hour.
It's specific.
No lunches start before 1.15and have to end at 2.45 so that
you can go to the 3 o'clock.
And there are breakfastmeetings also, which are 8.30 to
(17:55):
9.30.
So there are actually set times.
There are a lot of rules indiplomacy.
Yeah, thankfully, although Ihave a dinner this Friday, but
normally there are dinners onFridays.
The weekend is really very muchfor the family, but the rest of
the week is all lunches anddinners and it may seem like
it's all of gluttony, but itreally is.
(18:17):
I mean, a lot is done and it isvery, very important.
It really is important.
I like to host.
We host here, depending on.
I like to.
We host here, depending on thesize we host at the mission.
Um, it's smaller, more intimate.
I prefer, you know, 12 at oreven 10 at the residence.
I do like to bring ambassadorsto my home because I want them
(18:38):
to know that they are personalfriends also, not just
colleagues.
The respect is very important,that that one cultivates and we
are all really one family, andso I believe that hosting at
home is when one can.
Is is much nicer, more personal, and I like to you know, in the
(18:59):
home you have, you have photosof your family and you know it's
and it feels more personal.
So that is nice and a lot ofwork is done because in the UN
meetings we read our statement.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:11):
You then have to come back to your office and
file diplomatic cables back toyour capital, isn't?
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (19:17):
that right .
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:18):
And that's where you tell them what you
learned in the dinner or whatchanged your mind.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (19:22):
It won't be a very long report.
You there would be key.
You know there were two orthree key um bits that you would
have picked up, which which areimportant, which you might not
have heard in a meeting, or youmight not know about certain
interaction, because you knowyou could be at a dinner with 10
other people which might befrom different geographic groups
(19:43):
and you don don't know that, oh, the Grulak and the Africans
are going to have a resolution.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:48):
Well, you don't know, but they spoke about
it and for listeners, Grulak is, and it's a strange acronym,
it's the Group of Latin American.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangw (19:56):
Caribbean and you know, they would learn
about something that we may bedoing at the EU or way out with
an European group, for example,because obviously we are in our
families and in our groups, butit doesn't necessarily mean that
, you know, the informationwouldn't have come out yet, not
because it's secret, but becauseit's not something that has
been presented yet.
Oh, this would be something Iwould be able to support.
(20:18):
This is of interest.
Normally, around the tablethere would be a cross-regional
representation.
The host normally tries to dothat.
You know, there's always one ortwo things you pick up which
are which have to be conveyed sogastro diplomacy is a real
thing it is a real thing, andthe receptions are also
important and there are times Igo someone doesn't want to speak
(20:40):
to us directly.
You know I'll be there with myhusband, so I know that some
will go and speak to him so thathe will get the message,
because there are countries thatdon't talk to each other, they
don't have diplomatic Like Icould tell my husband, for
example oh, we would never agreeto that, but it's important to
know.
You know, for example, but theywouldn't.
The country that conveyed themessage would know the spouse
(21:01):
was the message.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:02):
So that's where the diplomatic spouse
comes in.
For those who do have a spousewho's engaged, it can really be
a two-person job.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa (21:10):
Normally at the dinners the spouses
aren't invited because it'spurely work.
You can have ten ambassadors ifyou don't invite the spouse,
but you would have five, andthere are certain things that
they may not say in front of thespouses.
It's always just a thing aroundlistening and eating so not
only they're not invited, but asreceptions, yes, um, I mean, I
(21:30):
have five dinners this weekend.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:31):
There's one he's invited, that's about you
have to watch uh, I remember inone episode of um the diplomat,
you know the show running now onnetflix her spouse says this is
fiction, of course, but how hewould eat?
Always eat a sandwich before astate dinner.
Oh, I mean, I guess you have tonot eat too much all these
various dinners and lunches thatyou go to because I always have
(21:55):
many.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (21:56):
My PA always knows to tell them
she will take food for the setand then I'm always like, can I
have the souffle?
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:05):
but yes, so you do have to pace yourself.
You have all these lunches anddinners you are cycling off.
You're completing your twoyears on the council what would
you miss?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milamb (22:14):
I would miss would be the monthly
lunches with the secretarygeneral.
We have a lunch at the 15 withthe secretary general and the
lunch as the E10 with thesecretary.
So two security council lunchesevery month with the SG and
that is absolutely the one thingI will miss from my tenure.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:31):
Kind of the difference between the mood of
the two lunches.
There's a great difference.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (22:35):
In fact, I said that at the ground
running that I would miss thelunches.
To be honest, I would miss theE10 lunch.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:41):
The E10 lunch is probably more frank and open
conversation.
I don't want to say just theE10, but when the P5 is sort of
removed and all the drama of the.
P5.
And that does keep with thetheme, so that's an excellent
place to end Well.
Thank you so much for your time.
Today.
Rebecca Bryant is Australia'sDeputy Perman permanent
(23:23):
representative to the UnitedNations.
She described the challenges ofmaking Australia's iconic
dessert, pavlova, in the firstepisode.
She's a career diplomat whowent on to tell us about some of
the more informal aspects ofdiplomatic dining, including a
memorable dinner in herapartment in Beijing, where she
was both cook and host.
I imagine with your years as adiplomat, you must have hosted
(23:52):
many a diplomatic dinner.
How do you work to blend thecultures and respect each side?
And also how does it functionas a part of diplomacy?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (24:00):
I think in general, sharing a meal is
always an icebreaker.
So here in New York, more thanin any other place that I have
been posted to, food sharing isa critical part of communication
.
Most of our meetings because ofthe UN schedule you know, it's
10am to 1pm and then 3pm to 6pmthe substantive bilateral and
(24:26):
plurilateral meetings occur atmealtimes breakfast, lunch and
dinner and so you know a largernumber of working lunches,
working dinners than I've everexperienced before.
So a lot of work gets done overmeals.
We like to always welcomenewcomers by taking them for
(24:46):
lunch or having them for dinner.
The ambassador and I here atthe Australian mission,
particularly with our AsiaPacific counterparts, we have an
understanding that we willalways invite them, you know, to
lunch or dinner as soon aswe've received their credentials
.
That's a fantastic way to getto know someone you know.
(25:07):
It allows you to ask them aboutwhere they've come from,
whether they've been to yourcountry before.
Have they seen this dish before?
All of those things are mucheasier over food.
J. Alex Tarquinio (25:18):
Now, that's a fascinating insight.
So when you get a newcounterpart, if there's a new
envoy, it's always publicized,sort of certainly to the press
corps and the UN Journal, whenthey present their credentials
to the secretary general presscorps and the UN Journal when
they present their credentialsto the Secretary General.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (25:37):
As soon as those credentials have been
presented, or if there's beenany change in the arrangement
for senior officers.
So if you know there's a longperiod of leave for a permanent
representative, there will be anote distributed.
So I get advice at the deputylevel, we get advice at the PR
level and, yeah, it's a reallygreat way for us to know
movements and it allows us thento reach out and warmly welcome
(25:58):
newcomers.
J. Alex Tarquinio (26:00):
Is there any advice you'd like to give, maybe
in terms of diplomatic diningand things that you know hosts
might learn from this?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (26:09):
Sometimes.
You know there are rules ofprotocol around dining.
There's a lot.
We have a training program forour young diplomats.
You know that takes themthrough the order of precedence
for seating.
You know the correct arc of ameal 15 minutes of mingling
(26:29):
followed by you know one hourand 15 minutes of meal time, the
exact timings of entree, mainand dessert.
You can plan a meal perfectlyaccording to protocol rules, but
there's no alternative.
There's no replacement forconviviality for warmth, no
(26:55):
replacement for conviviality forwarmth for and you don't always
have to be informal to get thatwarmth.
You can have warmth and beformal.
But ensuring that your guestsare comfortable, that you are
accessible to them, that theyfeel welcome, that's really,
really important.
It's way more important thantimings or yeah, that you get it
(27:15):
perfectly correct.
J. Alex Tarquinio (27:17):
A formal dinner, for example at the
ambassador's residence betweentwo or more countries.
The servers will know the cues.
The principal says the entreecourse is over.
There are cues that are givenand it is somewhat stage managed
like a performance, isn't thatright?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (27:34):
That is correct.
The thing is it doesn't alwayshave to be that way.
So one of the things that Ithink is really valuable when
you're planning a meal is tothink about whether it does need
to have all of the protocolsobserved, whether you do need to
have you know order ofprecedence observed in your
seating arrangementsarrangements, or whether you can
(27:54):
go entirely the other way.
I hosted a lunch recently for agroup of colleagues and I
abandoned protocol altogetherwith their agreement.
We did a lottery, so I wantedeveryone to sit somewhere
different.
So as they came into the diningroom they picked a color out of
a hat and then they went to sitsomewhere different.
So as they came into the diningroom they picked a color out of
a hat and then they went to sitat that seat.
(28:17):
You know it was a color-codedtable.
Sometimes games are fun.
It removes protocol as abarrier to communication and it
can make people feel you knowmore welcome.
It can be a little bit more fun.
That's not always appropriate,I totally agree with you, but
sometimes it's just good to mixit up.
J. Alex Tarquinio (28:35):
That's fascinating.
I can see the benefits, theadvantages and disadvantages of
both.
If you don't give peopleforewarning, they may feel
they're being disrespected ifyou don't obey the protocol.
But on the other hand, whendiplomats who are so used to
protocol get taken out of that,that could be like the rules are
there, they're sort of made tobe broken.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (28:55):
I think it's important that you just
don't do it the same way everytime, right?
Because otherwise, gosh, I eatso many lunches and dinners and
if every one of them was exactlythe same, that would get a bit
dull.
I mean, the key to any mealwith friends or professional
colleagues is, you know, makingthem feel comfortable.
(29:18):
If I'm a host, that's my firstpriority.
So if someone comes to my houseand alcohol is culturally
inappropriate for them, I'm notgoing to not serve alcohol, but
I'm going to communicateactively with them so that their
expectations are well managedand I'm going to ensure that
(29:38):
there are sufficient deliciouschoices available.
I want everybody to feel likethey can be themselves.
I want them to feel comfortableand to have choices available
that suit them.
So I think you know,particularly in the UN
environment, where we are such alarge melting pot, there's so
much consideration given to howpeople live, how they, what
(30:04):
their faith is, what theircultural norms are, and there's
a lot of respect that everybodydoes it in a different way.
So making sure people arecomfortable, that is the key to
a fantastic dinner for everyone.
Food, drink, all of that'simportant.
And ensuring that people arecomfortable, that's the key.
J. Alex Tarquinio (30:29):
When you were doing any of this diplomatic
dining over the years, did youhave any near misses Like you
mentioned?
For example, lamington's atleast the story goes may have
been created because a chef waskind of caught out and got late
notice.
Did you have something where aningredient didn't arrive on
time, or can you think ofanything where you had to
improvise for a dinner?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (30:50):
Yeah, it's interesting.
When I was living in China, Iused to have people to my home.
I didn't live in theambassador's residence, I had a
you know an apartment in Beijing, but I find it's a really nice
way to get to know yourcolleagues better if you have
them to your home and you cook,rather than have a chef cook or
(31:11):
going to a restaurant.
It's just that much moreintimate.
And I you know thequintessential Australian meal.
Casual meal for me would beroast lamb with roast vegetables
Difficult to do in lots ofplaces because lamb isn't easily
available in a lot of places.
The lamb turned out okay.
(31:32):
It took me a long time to findit, but you know, delicious slow
roasted potatoes, beautiful,but the pavlova just did not set
properly.
So what I ended up serving themwas, you know, a broken pavlova
just piled with cream and fruit, which was very tasty, but not
(31:53):
quite what I was going for Werethey familiar with pavlova?
J. Alex Tarquinio (31:56):
Because if they weren't familiar, I'm sure
it was still tasty.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (31:58):
There's another dessert in the UK called
Eton Mess.
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:03):
Eton as in the school or eat no Eton as a
school.
E-t-o-n and mess.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (32:08):
Kind of like a failed pavlova.
So it's when the pavlova kindof breaks into pieces and it's
all put together with the creamand some jelly and some fruit
and they call it eaten mess.
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:19):
It's funny you should talk about making
lamb in Beijing, because lamb, Iknow, is a very typical main
dish in Australia and tasty, butnot actually throughout.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (32:31):
Asia.
You know, increasingly peopleare moving to plant-based diets.
So when you're entertaining itcan be quite challenging to
prepare and plan a meal based ona meat dish.
So you know again now if you'reoffering a roast, you do have
to offer a plant-based diet Analternative?
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:51):
Absolutely.
It must be difficult too if youare the diplomat having another
diplomat over and you're alsocooking.
I mean well that any, any homecook would know when they're
preparing for a holiday meal oror they have maybe the their
husband's boss is coming over orsomething the stress of both
having to be the chef and havethe winning personality once you
(33:12):
get to dinner.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (33:14):
So it does .
You're absolutely right, itdoes influence your choices.
So the thing about a roast mostof the work is done and you
bring it to the table.
I think the important thing isto incorporate the service into
the meal itself.
Either you make it fully casualand you know you put the dishes
on the table and everyone canhelp themselves, or you bring it
(33:35):
out and there's some, I guess,some theatre around.
You know the carving of theroast or whatever it is.
Some people enjoy plated meals,so guests are seated and you
bring out a meal fully plated.
That for me isn't possible.
When I'm doing it myself, Ikind of like the act of sharing.
You know all the forks in thespoons into the dishes.
(33:58):
I think that creates anintimacy and a casualness that
you know can be really nice.
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:09):
Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo is the spouse
of the permanent representativeof Zambia to the United Nations,
Dr Chola Milambo.
She is the president of boththe United Nations Delegation
Spouses Club and the UnitedNations African Ambassadors
Spouses Group.
She described Zambia's cuisinein the first part.
Here she takes us through allof the stages of preparing and
(34:31):
hosting a diplomatic dinner atthe ambassador's residence.
The diplomatic spouse has avery important role to play, and
can you describe that for ourlisteners?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (34:51):
Sure .
So I believe the spouse is avery key factor in diplomacy.
We bridge the gap through oursocial ties, through networking,
through working together,through doing charity events,
visiting each other, and we getto learn and respect each
(35:12):
other's backgrounds and cultures.
I'm in charge of the residence,so to say.
J. Alex Tarquinio (35:18):
Well it's like, very similar to the
official duties of a first lady.
I guess you have to plan to bea diplomat's or ambassador's
wife.
You have to plan socialoccasions, perhaps help plan the
menu of a if you're having animportant ambassador over, and
there must be some difficultconsiderations because you both
(35:40):
want to show off your culture toto the guest and also respect
their culture and find a happymeeting ground.
So how, how?
Does that go into the planning.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (35:51):
Okay , so for my husband and I this
is our first diplomatic posting.
He's an economist.
He was with the World Bank andlater IMF in Washington DC and
I'm a banker by profession andyou know, with banking you have
to do a lot of networking.
And then while he was at theWorld Bank would have some
(36:14):
delegates that would come forannual meetings and spring
meetings, and I'm so glad we didthat because that was the
beginning of our training.
So, fast forward, when I wascoming into this role, I was
taken to the Zambia DiplomaticSchool.
It's called ZIDIS.
J. Alex Tarquinio (36:34):
And you learn about the various aspects of
the roles, such as planning thediplomatic meals, and there's a
lot that's very formal, theorder of precedence.
Do you learn all of that atschool?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (36:46):
Yes .
So ZIDIS was very helpful.
I sat with these remarkableladies who have served overseas
and now are back helping newdiplomats get into the role.
One trick they told me which Iwas getting to Alex was that
when you get to New York becausewhat we're telling you here is
theory, but when you do get toNew York try and visit your
(37:10):
fellow spouses.
So that was my first inkling.
I asked my neighboring country,zambia's landlocked.
We're surrounded by eightneighbors, so I reached out to
each one of them if I could callfor a courtesy call.
A courtesy call is 30 minutesto one hour and when I visited I
would see how they welcomed me,how they spoke, how they served
(37:34):
their tea, and I was pickinglessons from that, even if we
had already entertained in DC.
You know, americanentertainment sometimes is
casual.
J. Alex Tarquinio (37:45):
Yes, it's much more casual than diplomatic
dining, or even the way thatyou present a cup of tea in a
mission here at the UN is quitedifferent than it would be done
in a business environment or inNew York or Washington.
H.E. Linda Thomas Gr (37:57):
Absolutely so.
That helped me a lot from theneighbors and I started doing
regions and I haven't finishedvisiting all the 193 residences
in New York.
J. Alex Tarquinio (38:08):
Do you have a goal to do that before the end
of your term to visit all 193?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (38:14):
It's a must to at least meet them,
and being president of these twogroups has helped me.
Where I cannot go to theirresidence, I'm able to meet them
.
We can have a coffee, we cantalk and you know, that way you
keep learning from others.
So when it comes toentertaining at home, usually
the office will let me know ormy husband would tell me we have
(38:37):
so-and-so coming to theresidence.
Okay, and I'll ask the date.
I'll ask who exactly is coming,because of all the protocols,
all the rankings, because evenwhen we sit them at the table,
there's a ranking that has tofollow in terms of seniority.
If it's an ambassador that hasbeen in New York for a long time
(38:59):
, or if it's a certain rank fromhome, you know, if it's a, it's
the military team coming, whosits where?
Who sits at the head of thetable, who sits in the middle,
and all that placement.
Who sits where?
Who sits at the head of thetable, who sits in the middle,
and all that placement.
So I will ask for those detailsand every step of the way I'm
in touch with the office just sowe're on the same page.
(39:20):
Because, you know, sometimes wewives can get a little excited
and want to do things the way Iwant, but I always have to
follow with the guidance of theoffice.
J. Alex Tarquinio (39:31):
So there's a certain order of precedence for
the diplomatic corps, obviously,if you have a minister, that's
clear coming, and also themilitary, and the military would
be by rank, although there'salmost a counterpart in
diplomacy to rank.
And then, in terms of theservice during dinner, does the
(39:56):
chef and their staff, do theytake the clues, I guess, from
your husband, because there mustbe during the dinner service,
it's also probably an order ofprecedence and the flow of the
meal.
How does that work?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (40:07):
Yes , so when we host at home and we
need a service, the officestaff will come to help with the
dinner service and they alreadyknow the protocol so it's
easier.
So you discuss, you know beforethe dinner who's going to do
what.
Who in particular is going toserve who, because sometimes in
(40:29):
those protocols you'll find onlyone person can serve the most
senior person at the table.
J. Alex Tarquinio (40:35):
Is it based on?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (40:36):
the rank.
For example, we had our vicepresident and she had one person
who was on her team to serveher and the rest of us were
served by the people from theoffice.
So it's such protocols that Ihave to make sure I abide by.
Even if I live in thisresidence, I still have to
(40:58):
respect, because when you have asenior person such as the
honorable vice president, youhave to follow the protocols and
at times it could be fellowambassadors who go by who has
served longest in New York andthat's the one who take the head
of the other side of the tableand then we'll seat them
(41:22):
according to seniority.
So the preparations pretty muchare discussing the menu with
the office.
If I know what the people whoare coming like, it's very easy.
That's what will be on the menu.
But if I don't know, I try toinfuse a variety so that there's
something for everyone.
J. Alex Tarquinio (41:42):
And is there a blend of your native customary
food or do you try and infusesome of your traditional cooking
, or perhaps the traditionalcooking of your guests?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (41:53):
So if it's our nationals coming,
definitely our food will be onthe menu, yeah.
But if it's a variety of people, I've seen that the tradition
in New York is usually sea busyeah.
So once the menu is discussedand agreed, an officer from the
(42:14):
office will go either with me or, if they chose a caterer, they
will go together to buy the food, to ensure we buy the freshest
and, you know, the most goodlooking food out there.
And then all this is done theday before and then on the day
itself we just do the finaltouches and for me, I will make
(42:36):
sure a few days prior, we takeout the china.
Even if it's clean, we have toclean it again, ensure there's
enough china flatware andglassware.
We have what we call the coatof arms.
There's a male and a femalestanding, of course,
representing the family.
There's a cob of maize RememberI talked about our staple food.
(42:56):
There's the eagle the eagle,which shows the ability of
rising above our problems.
There are these wavy linesrepresenting the same colors
that you'd find in our flag, butalso the waviness represents
the Victoria Falls when it's anofficial dinner.
That's the China.
We will use your symbolism.
(43:17):
In your China, you show thestrength of your country.
It's also homage.
I mean, we're all here becauseof our country, so we take pride
in putting that on the tableand have the menu on the table
so that everybody knows whatthey're going to eat.
So the food tasting.
I prefer to do that becausesometimes the palate of somebody
(43:42):
might find it a bit strange totest food from Zambia.
J. Alex Tarquinio (43:45):
Oh, and you don't want it to be, for example
, too spicy, if it's not adinner where there are only
other Zambians there.
Now I would guess that the cheftastes the food, because you
also want to make sure that it'ssafe.
So you want the chef to.
I mean, I know you selectnothing but the freshest fruits
and vegetables and meats, butdoes the chef taste it first and
(44:07):
then you taste it for theflavor?
How does the tasting work?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (44:11):
The chef has to bring the food not
less than two hours before.
So she or he will taste it.
The chef she will, and we'lllook at her for 30 minutes
straight to make sure she didn'tdo anything there.
J. Alex Tarquinio (44:23):
Right, right, no.
So she is like they used to inmedieval times have the royal
food taster.
So the chef has alwaysfulfilled that role.
So she'll taste it first andmaybe half an hour so you'll
come in and say how is it, andthen you'll have a little taste
it and partly there you'relooking to make sure it's not
too spicy for your guests ifthey're not all Zambian.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (44:43):
Make sure the salt is right.
With all these dietary issues,make sure the food is fresh.
J. Alex Tarquinio (44:52):
Now, if this is done two hours before, I
guess you just then reheat it.
Well, that way you know it'salso done on time.
I imagine the timing is veryimportant.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (44:58):
Yes , We'll bring out our chaffing
dishes and put all this food in.
You know that slow heating andat least 30 minutes before we
sit down to eat.
So you put some warm water in asecond dish, put it there and
put a burner underneath and thatdoes a good job.
You know, it doesn't distortthe taste of the food, it just
(45:18):
heats it.
J. Alex Tarquinio (45:19):
Now it sounds like it's also safer to have
the food for multiple reasons,to have it ready a couple hours
before.
But have you ever had any nearmisses, something you're almost
pulling your hair out becausesomething didn't quite work out
for for a diplomatic dinner?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfi (45:35):
thank god, no, uh, alex, I'm, I'm,
I'm hands-on, even when I knowthat there's help, even when I
know that officers will comefrom his office.
I do understand that these arehard-working people, mean I can
start the cooking on time.
I don't mind doing three, fourdishes before they arrive.
(45:55):
We're all trying to entertainhere.
We're all trying to create agood name for our country.
J. Alex Tarquinio (46:01):
And I should point out, obviously there are
some ambassadors who do not havea spouse or partner and I would
assume that in those missionsthey assign that role to a
member of staff.
That's true, you can speakofficially as a diplomatic
spouse because you are presidentof the United Nations Delegates
(46:22):
Spouses Club.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (46:24):
Oh yes, we do a lot.
We do a lot of charity work.
There is a major event that wehold every summer and we
identify four to five countriesthat would benefit from those
proceeds.
For instance, this year, amongthem, we donated to the soldiers
of Ukraine for theirrehabilitation.
(46:46):
Another country benefited wasSudan, and then also Doctors
Without Borders.
J. Alex Tarquinio (46:54):
Obviously there are women representatives
of the UN, and do you have menin your group of diplomatic
spouses?
Are they a member of your groupand are they as interested in
performing some of these duties,making sure the diplomatic
dinners come off on time and toa level of perfection?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (47:13):
Yeah , so we do have male spouses,
and they too are in charge ofsupporting their peers in their
homes or residences.
For dinners, I've been toseveral where there's a male
spouse, and the dinners havebeen exceptional.
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (47:37):
And that's it from the Delegates Lounge.
We'd like to thank our esteemedguests, who have graciously
allowed us to share theirhard-earned insights into what
really matters.
And then there's you, ourlisteners, who we hope are
sufficiently edified to clamorfor more of the same.
Do drop in for a weekly episodeon Thursday, or from time to
time if we're on the road, forspecial events, in which case
there'll be a bonus episode.
(47:58):
Subscribe wherever you listento podcasts and, if you like
what you've heard, please take amoment to rate or review the
show, as it helps others whoshare your abiding interest in
world affairs to find their wayto the Delegates Lounge.
You can connect with us on manypopular social media platforms
or reach out to us directly atinfothedelicatesloungecom.
We're a small team so we can'trespond to every message, but we
(48:20):
will read them.
Our show this week was writtenand produced by the host and by
yours truly executive producer,frank Radford.
Until next time, keep calm andcurious.
Welcome to the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts, almost20 hours of sunlight during the
(00:45):
day.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (00:47):
It makes those berries, especially
the wild ones, very, very tasty.
J. Alex Tarquinio (00:52):
Blood sausage .
So we are using the blood andthen we make sausages from that.
If I'm going to explain how wedo that, though I think nobody
wants to eat that.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (01:02):
that though I think nobody wants to
eat that.
There's one that we call rep,which I would liken to collard
greens, kale, chamomile, spinachand many others.
We take pride in drying foodwhen we have it in abundance.
J. Alex Tarquinio (01:18):
Rabanadas are the proof that nothing goes to
waste in Portuguese cuisine,because you can use bread
leftovers in this dessert.
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (01:28):
Its history is linked to shepherds
who spent long hours in themountains.
Legend has it that one of themgot tired of the usual bread and
cheese.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (01:38):
It's a real favorite and it's messy,
but it's delicious in bothsummer and the winter pretty
pears are everywhere, everywhere.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa (01:48):
Another thing that you pick when you're
walking as well, as long as youhave some gloves welcome back
to our culinary special diningwith a dozen diplomats.
J. Alex Tarquinio (02:01):
if you haven't listened to part one yet
, tune in on our playlist for asmorgasbord of recipes from
Australia, brazil, cyprus,czechia, estonia, finland, malta
, portugal, slovenia,switzerland, the United States
and Zambia.
These recipes were shared, asyou've just heard, by a variety
(02:21):
of high-level governmentministers and ambassadors.
Now, in part two, we'll delvedeep into the intricacies of
diplomatic dining, and we haveone more very special recipe to
share.
But first a word ongastro-diplomacy, our word of
the day.
Simply put, this is but onevariety of soft power, which
refers to the various ways thatnations use their cultural
(02:44):
influence to strengthen tieswith other capitals.
In the broadest sense,gastro-diplomacy refers to the
visceral persuasion of anational cuisine to improve a
nation's standing withforeigners.
Diplomats abroad, for example,often exchange foodstuffs
representative of their culturewith their counterparts from
other countries.
In the narrowest sense,gastro-diplomacy is the
(03:07):
influence a nation'srepresentatives can wield at the
dinner table or, as we'll learn, while chopping onions in a
steamy kitchen or carving up aroast lamb.
History has been made at thedinner table.
Arguably there's a directhistorical thread stretching
more than 50 years, from USPresident Richard Nixon eating
his dinner with chopsticks at abanquet hosted by Chinese
(03:27):
Premier Zhou Enlai, togeopolitics today, and you don't
have to take our word for it.
Our show notes include a linkto the photo of that bygone
Chinese dinner in the USNational Archives, along with a
link to my foreign policy essayon soft power.
Frank Radford (04:13):
President, joe Biden's ambassador to the United
Nations, and oh yeah, walk yourfeet at this little.
J. Alex Tarquinio (04:25):
President, joe Biden's ambassador to the
United Nations, lindaThomas-Greenfield, known
affectionately to her team asLTG, has her own spin on
gastro-diplomacy she calls itgumbo-diplomacy.
Greenfield, who refers toherself as a Louisianac
cuisinier, grew up in the BayouState, where this hearty soup is
extremely popular.
(04:45):
The United States held therotating Security Council
presidency in December asGreenfield was preparing to end
her tenure at the UN, so we'repleased that she took time out
of her busy schedule to shareher personal gumbo recipe and a
few words about the dish.
Gumbo preparation takes time,the ambassador told us in a
recent email, and over thecourse of her career she has
made a point to invite othersinto the process, including
(05:08):
foreign diplomats, to help chopcelery or onions, for example.
Working together like this, shesays, breaks the ice.
It opens doors to sometimesdifficult conversations.
She often says that gumbodiplomacy, as she calls it,
works all the time because itmakes people comfortable and
helps build relationships.
And, of course, gumbo makes fora delicious meal, and so she's
(05:30):
happy to share her recipe withour listeners.
You'll find the ambassador'sgumbo recipe on our website,
along with many of the recipesin the first part of the Dining
with Diplomats culinary special.
Her recipe serves 10 to 12, anideal number for a diplomatic
dinner.
This gumbo recipe takes fourhours to prepare, so when she
pulls diplomats in the kitchen,they'd better be prepared to
(05:51):
clear their calendars for theafternoon.
The ingredient list calls fortwo pounds of andouille sausage,
a staple of Louisiana cookery,but if you can't find this in
your local shops, then you maysubstitute any smoked sausage.
Combine that with two pounds ofshrimp and two pounds of
skinless chicken breasts cut upinto chunks.
The soup is packed with yellowonions, celery, green bell
(06:12):
peppers, tomatoes, garlic, okra,creole seasoning and
Louisiana's very own Tabascosauce.
Frank Radford (06:21):
She makes gumbo, put hair on your chest.
Her creole crawfish Are thebest.
You'll be hooked on for life Ifyou taste a single spoon.
You're gonna need it when yougo Dancing under that bio-moon.
(06:49):
Dancing under that bio-moon.
Dancing under that bio-moon,dancing under that bayou moon,
dancing under the bayou moon,dancing under the bayou moon.
(07:14):
You're gonna need it when yougo Dancing under the bayou moon.
J. Alex Tarquinio (07:25):
From the sultry Louisiana bayou, we're
venturing to the craggy shoresof Malta, land of medieval
knights and Mediterraneancuisine.
We recently sat down with theIsland Nation's UN envoy in her
office near the United Nationsheadquarters in New York.
Vanessa Frazier is Malta'spermanent representative to the
United Nations, a title thatsimply means she is the top
(07:47):
diplomat representing hercountry's permanent mission to
the UN.
As you'll hear in this episode,the ambassadors acting as their
country's UN permanentrepresentative, better known as
the PR, change all the time.
Typically, they stay about fouryears, but these are political
appointments so they can alterwith the government back home.
(08:08):
Each year, five member statesare elected to two year terms on
the UN Security Council.
The 10 elected members,collectively called the E10,
serve alongside the fivepermanent Security Council
members, better known as the P5.
Ambassador Fraser was wrappingup her term as one of the E10
when we spoke and she met withus between the morning and
(08:30):
afternoon Security Councilsessions.
As you'll hear, this time wasusually reserved for working
lunches and it was her only freeafternoon in mid-December.
Some of her best memories ofserving on the Council have been
the monthly lunches with theSecretary General, often
referred to as the SG Diplomacyis almost as fond of acronyms as
(08:51):
the military.
In the first part of thisspecial, ambassador Fraser
described her favorite Maltesedishes and the archipelago's
wine and spirits, includingBaitra, a sweet liqueur made
from prickly pears.
That's one of the gifts thatshe gives to her counterparts
from other countries torepresent the best of Malta.
Here's the second half of ourconversation.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milamb (09:19):
I find this podcast very
interesting because actuallyfood is a very important way to
break the ice with people, andyou know there are times when we
would be in meetings or even,you know, around the council
table, where it is very heatedand we might be on opposite ends
but we can actually eattogether.
J. Alex Tarquinio (09:38):
So that part is is key well, there's a's a
whole conversation about hardpower and soft power.
We all know what hard power is,but I have written about soft
power in other guises.
But gastro diplomacy can bevery important to diplomacy
itself, which is why I wonderedif you knew of any world history
(10:00):
that had been made you knowwhere they had difficulty
agreeing on a treaty.
And then I know this hashappened.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (10:11):
Sit down to to a good meal together
, and they finally come to anagreement.
you know, because for somepeople, when we have ministerial
meetings, there's always thedinner, absolutely, which is
which is not the open session,it is more restricted, and then
and all of us experts areoutside and advisors waiting,
waiting, waiting for ourministers or prime ministers to
go out and say we agreed,marriage is compromise and
(10:31):
invariably it is at the dinnerof a conference where somehow
you find some compromise onsomething.
So I've seen it happen many,many, many times Are the
ministerial dinners more formal?
J. Alex Tarquinio (10:47):
I mean, obviously work gets done, the
work is different.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (10:52):
It is around the table For the
food.
You're not reading out of ascript.
There is a dialogue, youexplain yourself, you interact,
you ask questions, you do backand forth, and manners always
prevail, right.
So you are going to be lessrude.
You're not going to write aboutit.
Oh you're saying rubbish.
We have the respect for thehost and for the others around
(11:16):
the table, so it does make a bigdifference.
You can do a lot.
J. Alex Tarquinio (11:21):
I imagine it can be kind of startling seeing
people who've been know atloggerheads in the consultations
you know behind closed doorsbut the security council then
see them over dinner or you knowbreaking bread and sort of
laughing we also need to be.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mil (11:35):
It's very important that we're able
to distinguish between the, youknow, the personal relationship
and the professionalrelationship.
Also Because we have as careerdiplomats.
We have all been in situationswhere we have maybe had to make
a statement that we're notexactly in agreement with, but
it's our government positions,right, but you really cannot
(11:56):
blame the person that isdelivering the message.
So there is in these, in inners, there is the opportunity also
to get to know the person and toestablish the personal
relationship.
And then there's a personalrelationship which could then
change policy because, um, eachambassador, especially here at
the un, you know these are thehighest ranking diplomats of
(12:19):
every country, so they haveinfluence with their capitals.
So when you have theopportunity to bring your case,
you know, at a more informal,personal level, to an ambassador
where maybe countries have beenat loggerheads, I mean they
could influence the policy incapitals after having had
certain arguments and alsobecause there's a personal
(12:39):
relationship, you know.
So it is very important and Ihave seen ambassadors change
policy.
I have influenced decisionstaken in my capital also has a
good diplomatic dinner.
ever changed history, I do thinkso very much, maybe not you
know a specific dinner, but aseries of them for sure.
(13:02):
It is so important for us to beable to interact with each
other at a best and human level,not only to be, you know,
around the working table, butwhen you're sharing food and
you're talking about, oh, I likethis, and this reminds me of a
dish that we have at home, or wewould never have this, or we
would cook it and we have rabbit, but we would not bake it, but
we would fry it.
So you know, the conversationsare different and you get to
(13:25):
know people on a different level.
They've been very important.
When you build those personalrelationships, then you can
really build important bridges.
So I think it is very important.
I have been a bilateralambassador all my career, except
when I came here to the UN, andit's incredible how many
(13:46):
lunches and dinners we have, butit is very important.
At the beginning I had found itvery difficult because I would
say you really don't have tofeed me if you need to ask me
something, you know.
But I understand the importanceof the, of the interaction,
that it's a different type ofinteraction.
We really are a family andmultilateral in diplomacy and it
(14:08):
is important.
It is important to learn aboutother cultures.
It opens up avenues for otherdiscussions and I have been at
dinners and I have gone todinners with the intention to
raise a specific thing.
When it is in a more casual,friendly and family especially
when you have dinners inresidences, not in restaurants,
(14:29):
so you're actually in somebody'shome it does make a big
difference.
It is important in diplomacyvery much.
J. Alex Tarquinio (14:35):
I always thought it was a great misnomer
that you're called a permanentrepresentative.
Of course you represent thepermanent mission, but the
permanent representatives areanything, but they change all
the time.
As soon as they've presentedtheir credentials, the other
ambassadors will invite them,and are these mostly one-on-one?
Like you will invite them backto the residence, or are there
grand dinners for them?
(14:55):
How does that work?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (14:57):
So new ambassadors do like to do a
round.
Of course, first thing thatthey would ask their PAs to do
would be to set up a number ofcourtesy visits to ambassadors,
and then it would depend on whattheir priorities would be.
Normally, you would meet withthe dean who's the oldest
(15:17):
ambassador, your geographicfamily, the heads of the
geography, and then you wouldwork your way until you've tried
to meet as many as possibleindividually.
But each country would decidewhich ambassadors to meet first,
depending on what theirpriorities would be.
J. Alex Tarquinio (15:37):
It sounds almost like ripples in a pool,
like you throw in a stone.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (15:40):
and first they meet with their
regional colleagues and thenSimilar interests, but if you're
on specific committees orwhatever, so it really would
depend on the individual country.
And then there also isambassadors who invite new
ambassadors, so we like to do it.
Even you know, amongst the EUwe see each other.
We have our EU ambassadorsmeeting every Tuesday, so we
(16:03):
immediately meet new ambassadors.
But it is nice to welcome fromother regional groups.
When there's a new African orAsian ambassador, it's nice to
have them meet with some of youknow, some key members of our
group, just to help themunderstand our positions, for us
to understand what theirpriorities will be, how we can
collaborate and to build afriendship.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:28):
Well, in fact and I think people outside of
the UN possibly don't understandhow regional it is because you
need, as a region, to work outthings such as appointments to
committees and who will run forthis, and everything is sort of
apportioned geographically.
Those might be the level ofthings that you might work at at
a luncheon and when you have um, your counterparts around to
your home.
I assume you have a specialdining area.
(16:49):
Do you put out special china?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Mila (16:51):
are there things that represent
malta on the table with our,with our coat of arms on it and
you know the everything theflatware, the crystal.
Normally we would like to servemaltese wine also, which is not
easy.
We don't get it.
So you know, some countries arelucky chile, or they can buy
wine locally.
We cannot, we receive shipmentsfrom malta, but we do like to
(17:15):
promote the best of malta, um,and that is, you know, our food
and our wine is part of ourculture you know, at the UN you
take a break between 1 and 3,there's pretty much a break, at
least with the public events.
J. Alex Tarquinio (17:27):
I assume that's because many we go to
lunch.
Yeah, many things are workedout over lunch meetings.
Yes, we have a lot.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (17:33):
So , the.
Un work is from 10 till 1 andthen from 3 to 6.
Those are the official UN hours,but 1.15 to 2.45 is the lunch
hour.
It's specific.
No lunches start before 1.15and have to end at 2.45 so that
you can go to the 3 o'clock.
And there are breakfastmeetings also, which are 8.30 to
(17:55):
9.30.
So there are actually set times.
There are a lot of rules indiplomacy.
Yeah, thankfully, although Ihave a dinner this Friday, but
normally there are dinners onFridays.
The weekend is really very muchfor the family, but the rest of
the week is all lunches anddinners and it may seem like
it's all of gluttony, but itreally is.
(18:17):
I mean, a lot is done and it isvery, very important.
It really is important.
I like to host.
We host here, depending on.
I like to.
We host here, depending on thesize we host at the mission.
Um, it's smaller, more intimate.
I prefer, you know, 12 at oreven 10 at the residence.
I do like to bring ambassadorsto my home because I want them
(18:38):
to know that they are personalfriends also, not just
colleagues.
The respect is very important,that that one cultivates and we
are all really one family, andso I believe that hosting at
home is when one can.
Is is much nicer, more personal, and I like to you know, in the
(18:59):
home you have, you have photosof your family and you know it's
and it feels more personal.
So that is nice and a lot ofwork is done because in the UN
meetings we read our statement.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:11):
You then have to come back to your office and
file diplomatic cables back toyour capital, isn't?
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (19:17):
that right .
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:18):
And that's where you tell them what you
learned in the dinner or whatchanged your mind.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (19:22):
It won't be a very long report.
You there would be key.
You know there were two orthree key um bits that you would
have picked up, which which areimportant, which you might not
have heard in a meeting, or youmight not know about certain
interaction, because you knowyou could be at a dinner with 10
other people which might befrom different geographic groups
(19:43):
and you don don't know that, oh, the Grulak and the Africans
are going to have a resolution.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:48):
Well, you don't know, but they spoke about
it and for listeners, Grulak is, and it's a strange acronym,
it's the Group of Latin American.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangw (19:56):
Caribbean and you know, they would learn
about something that we may bedoing at the EU or way out with
an European group, for example,because obviously we are in our
families and in our groups, butit doesn't necessarily mean that
, you know, the informationwouldn't have come out yet, not
because it's secret, but becauseit's not something that has
been presented yet.
Oh, this would be something Iwould be able to support.
(20:18):
This is of interest.
Normally, around the tablethere would be a cross-regional
representation.
The host normally tries to dothat.
You know, there's always one ortwo things you pick up which
are which have to be conveyed sogastro diplomacy is a real
thing it is a real thing, andthe receptions are also
important and there are times Igo someone doesn't want to speak
(20:40):
to us directly.
You know I'll be there with myhusband, so I know that some
will go and speak to him so thathe will get the message,
because there are countries thatdon't talk to each other, they
don't have diplomatic Like Icould tell my husband, for
example oh, we would never agreeto that, but it's important to
know.
You know, for example, but theywouldn't.
The country that conveyed themessage would know the spouse
(21:01):
was the message.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:02):
So that's where the diplomatic spouse
comes in.
For those who do have a spousewho's engaged, it can really be
a two-person job.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa (21:10):
Normally at the dinners the spouses
aren't invited because it'spurely work.
You can have ten ambassadors ifyou don't invite the spouse,
but you would have five, andthere are certain things that
they may not say in front of thespouses.
It's always just a thing aroundlistening and eating so not
only they're not invited, but asreceptions, yes, um, I mean, I
(21:30):
have five dinners this weekend.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:31):
There's one he's invited, that's about you
have to watch uh, I remember inone episode of um the diplomat,
you know the show running now onnetflix her spouse says this is
fiction, of course, but how hewould eat?
Always eat a sandwich before astate dinner.
Oh, I mean, I guess you have tonot eat too much all these
various dinners and lunches thatyou go to because I always have
(21:55):
many.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (21:56):
My PA always knows to tell them
she will take food for the setand then I'm always like, can I
have the souffle?
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:05):
but yes, so you do have to pace yourself.
You have all these lunches anddinners you are cycling off.
You're completing your twoyears on the council what would
you miss?
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milamb (22:14):
I would miss would be the monthly
lunches with the secretarygeneral.
We have a lunch at the 15 withthe secretary general and the
lunch as the E10 with thesecretary.
So two security council lunchesevery month with the SG and
that is absolutely the one thingI will miss from my tenure.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:31):
Kind of the difference between the mood of
the two lunches.
There's a great difference.
Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milam (22:35):
In fact, I said that at the ground
running that I would miss thelunches.
To be honest, I would miss theE10 lunch.
J. Alex Tarquinio (22:41):
The E10 lunch is probably more frank and open
conversation.
I don't want to say just theE10, but when the P5 is sort of
removed and all the drama of the.
P5.
And that does keep with thetheme, so that's an excellent
place to end Well.
Thank you so much for your time.
Today.
Rebecca Bryant is Australia'sDeputy Perman permanent
(23:23):
representative to the UnitedNations.
She described the challenges ofmaking Australia's iconic
dessert, pavlova, in the firstepisode.
She's a career diplomat whowent on to tell us about some of
the more informal aspects ofdiplomatic dining, including a
memorable dinner in herapartment in Beijing, where she
was both cook and host.
I imagine with your years as adiplomat, you must have hosted
(23:52):
many a diplomatic dinner.
How do you work to blend thecultures and respect each side?
And also how does it functionas a part of diplomacy?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (24:00):
I think in general, sharing a meal is
always an icebreaker.
So here in New York, more thanin any other place that I have
been posted to, food sharing isa critical part of communication
.
Most of our meetings because ofthe UN schedule you know, it's
10am to 1pm and then 3pm to 6pmthe substantive bilateral and
(24:26):
plurilateral meetings occur atmealtimes breakfast, lunch and
dinner and so you know a largernumber of working lunches,
working dinners than I've everexperienced before.
So a lot of work gets done overmeals.
We like to always welcomenewcomers by taking them for
(24:46):
lunch or having them for dinner.
The ambassador and I here atthe Australian mission,
particularly with our AsiaPacific counterparts, we have an
understanding that we willalways invite them, you know, to
lunch or dinner as soon aswe've received their credentials
.
That's a fantastic way to getto know someone you know.
(25:07):
It allows you to ask them aboutwhere they've come from,
whether they've been to yourcountry before.
Have they seen this dish before?
All of those things are mucheasier over food.
J. Alex Tarquinio (25:18):
Now, that's a fascinating insight.
So when you get a newcounterpart, if there's a new
envoy, it's always publicized,sort of certainly to the press
corps and the UN Journal, whenthey present their credentials
to the secretary general presscorps and the UN Journal when
they present their credentialsto the Secretary General.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (25:37):
As soon as those credentials have been
presented, or if there's beenany change in the arrangement
for senior officers.
So if you know there's a longperiod of leave for a permanent
representative, there will be anote distributed.
So I get advice at the deputylevel, we get advice at the PR
level and, yeah, it's a reallygreat way for us to know
movements and it allows us thento reach out and warmly welcome
(25:58):
newcomers.
J. Alex Tarquinio (26:00):
Is there any advice you'd like to give, maybe
in terms of diplomatic diningand things that you know hosts
might learn from this?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (26:09):
Sometimes.
You know there are rules ofprotocol around dining.
There's a lot.
We have a training program forour young diplomats.
You know that takes themthrough the order of precedence
for seating.
You know the correct arc of ameal 15 minutes of mingling
(26:29):
followed by you know one hourand 15 minutes of meal time, the
exact timings of entree, mainand dessert.
You can plan a meal perfectlyaccording to protocol rules, but
there's no alternative.
There's no replacement forconviviality for warmth, no
(26:55):
replacement for conviviality forwarmth for and you don't always
have to be informal to get thatwarmth.
You can have warmth and beformal.
But ensuring that your guestsare comfortable, that you are
accessible to them, that theyfeel welcome, that's really,
really important.
It's way more important thantimings or yeah, that you get it
(27:15):
perfectly correct.
J. Alex Tarquinio (27:17):
A formal dinner, for example at the
ambassador's residence betweentwo or more countries.
The servers will know the cues.
The principal says the entreecourse is over.
There are cues that are givenand it is somewhat stage managed
like a performance, isn't thatright?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (27:34):
That is correct.
The thing is it doesn't alwayshave to be that way.
So one of the things that Ithink is really valuable when
you're planning a meal is tothink about whether it does need
to have all of the protocolsobserved, whether you do need to
have you know order ofprecedence observed in your
seating arrangementsarrangements, or whether you can
(27:54):
go entirely the other way.
I hosted a lunch recently for agroup of colleagues and I
abandoned protocol altogetherwith their agreement.
We did a lottery, so I wantedeveryone to sit somewhere
different.
So as they came into the diningroom they picked a color out of
a hat and then they went to sitsomewhere different.
So as they came into the diningroom they picked a color out of
a hat and then they went to sitat that seat.
(28:17):
You know it was a color-codedtable.
Sometimes games are fun.
It removes protocol as abarrier to communication and it
can make people feel you knowmore welcome.
It can be a little bit more fun.
That's not always appropriate,I totally agree with you, but
sometimes it's just good to mixit up.
J. Alex Tarquinio (28:35):
That's fascinating.
I can see the benefits, theadvantages and disadvantages of
both.
If you don't give peopleforewarning, they may feel
they're being disrespected ifyou don't obey the protocol.
But on the other hand, whendiplomats who are so used to
protocol get taken out of that,that could be like the rules are
there, they're sort of made tobe broken.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (28:55):
I think it's important that you just
don't do it the same way everytime, right?
Because otherwise, gosh, I eatso many lunches and dinners and
if every one of them was exactlythe same, that would get a bit
dull.
I mean, the key to any mealwith friends or professional
colleagues is, you know, makingthem feel comfortable.
(29:18):
If I'm a host, that's my firstpriority.
So if someone comes to my houseand alcohol is culturally
inappropriate for them, I'm notgoing to not serve alcohol, but
I'm going to communicateactively with them so that their
expectations are well managedand I'm going to ensure that
(29:38):
there are sufficient deliciouschoices available.
I want everybody to feel likethey can be themselves.
I want them to feel comfortableand to have choices available
that suit them.
So I think you know,particularly in the UN
environment, where we are such alarge melting pot, there's so
much consideration given to howpeople live, how they, what
(30:04):
their faith is, what theircultural norms are, and there's
a lot of respect that everybodydoes it in a different way.
So making sure people arecomfortable, that is the key to
a fantastic dinner for everyone.
Food, drink, all of that'simportant.
And ensuring that people arecomfortable, that's the key.
J. Alex Tarquinio (30:29):
When you were doing any of this diplomatic
dining over the years, did youhave any near misses Like you
mentioned?
For example, lamington's atleast the story goes may have
been created because a chef waskind of caught out and got late
notice.
Did you have something where aningredient didn't arrive on
time, or can you think ofanything where you had to
improvise for a dinner?
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (30:50):
Yeah, it's interesting.
When I was living in China, Iused to have people to my home.
I didn't live in theambassador's residence, I had a
you know an apartment in Beijing, but I find it's a really nice
way to get to know yourcolleagues better if you have
them to your home and you cook,rather than have a chef cook or
(31:11):
going to a restaurant.
It's just that much moreintimate.
And I you know thequintessential Australian meal.
Casual meal for me would beroast lamb with roast vegetables
Difficult to do in lots ofplaces because lamb isn't easily
available in a lot of places.
The lamb turned out okay.
(31:32):
It took me a long time to findit, but you know, delicious slow
roasted potatoes, beautiful,but the pavlova just did not set
properly.
So what I ended up serving themwas, you know, a broken pavlova
just piled with cream and fruit, which was very tasty, but not
(31:53):
quite what I was going for Werethey familiar with pavlova?
J. Alex Tarquinio (31:56):
Because if they weren't familiar, I'm sure
it was still tasty.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (31:58):
There's another dessert in the UK called
Eton Mess.
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:03):
Eton as in the school or eat no Eton as a
school.
E-t-o-n and mess.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (32:08):
Kind of like a failed pavlova.
So it's when the pavlova kindof breaks into pieces and it's
all put together with the creamand some jelly and some fruit
and they call it eaten mess.
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:19):
It's funny you should talk about making
lamb in Beijing, because lamb, Iknow, is a very typical main
dish in Australia and tasty, butnot actually throughout.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (32:31):
Asia.
You know, increasingly peopleare moving to plant-based diets.
So when you're entertaining itcan be quite challenging to
prepare and plan a meal based ona meat dish.
So you know again now if you'reoffering a roast, you do have
to offer a plant-based diet Analternative?
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:51):
Absolutely.
It must be difficult too if youare the diplomat having another
diplomat over and you're alsocooking.
I mean well that any, any homecook would know when they're
preparing for a holiday meal oror they have maybe the their
husband's boss is coming over orsomething the stress of both
having to be the chef and havethe winning personality once you
(33:12):
get to dinner.
H.E. Rebecca Bryant (33:14):
So it does .
You're absolutely right, itdoes influence your choices.
So the thing about a roast mostof the work is done and you
bring it to the table.
I think the important thing isto incorporate the service into
the meal itself.
Either you make it fully casualand you know you put the dishes
on the table and everyone canhelp themselves, or you bring it
(33:35):
out and there's some, I guess,some theatre around.
You know the carving of theroast or whatever it is.
Some people enjoy plated meals,so guests are seated and you
bring out a meal fully plated.
That for me isn't possible.
When I'm doing it myself, Ikind of like the act of sharing.
You know all the forks in thespoons into the dishes.
(33:58):
I think that creates anintimacy and a casualness that
you know can be really nice.
J. Alex Tarquinio (34:09):
Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo is the spouse
of the permanent representativeof Zambia to the United Nations,
Dr Chola Milambo.
She is the president of boththe United Nations Delegation
Spouses Club and the UnitedNations African Ambassadors
Spouses Group.
She described Zambia's cuisinein the first part.
Here she takes us through allof the stages of preparing and
(34:31):
hosting a diplomatic dinner atthe ambassador's residence.
The diplomatic spouse has avery important role to play, and
can you describe that for ourlisteners?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (34:51):
Sure .
So I believe the spouse is avery key factor in diplomacy.
We bridge the gap through oursocial ties, through networking,
through working together,through doing charity events,
visiting each other, and we getto learn and respect each
(35:12):
other's backgrounds and cultures.
I'm in charge of the residence,so to say.
J. Alex Tarquinio (35:18):
Well it's like, very similar to the
official duties of a first lady.
I guess you have to plan to bea diplomat's or ambassador's
wife.
You have to plan socialoccasions, perhaps help plan the
menu of a if you're having animportant ambassador over, and
there must be some difficultconsiderations because you both
(35:40):
want to show off your culture toto the guest and also respect
their culture and find a happymeeting ground.
So how, how?
Does that go into the planning.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (35:51):
Okay , so for my husband and I this
is our first diplomatic posting.
He's an economist.
He was with the World Bank andlater IMF in Washington DC and
I'm a banker by profession andyou know, with banking you have
to do a lot of networking.
And then while he was at theWorld Bank would have some
(36:14):
delegates that would come forannual meetings and spring
meetings, and I'm so glad we didthat because that was the
beginning of our training.
So, fast forward, when I wascoming into this role, I was
taken to the Zambia DiplomaticSchool.
It's called ZIDIS.
J. Alex Tarquinio (36:34):
And you learn about the various aspects of
the roles, such as planning thediplomatic meals, and there's a
lot that's very formal, theorder of precedence.
Do you learn all of that atschool?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (36:46):
Yes .
So ZIDIS was very helpful.
I sat with these remarkableladies who have served overseas
and now are back helping newdiplomats get into the role.
One trick they told me which Iwas getting to Alex was that
when you get to New York becausewhat we're telling you here is
theory, but when you do get toNew York try and visit your
(37:10):
fellow spouses.
So that was my first inkling.
I asked my neighboring country,zambia's landlocked.
We're surrounded by eightneighbors, so I reached out to
each one of them if I could callfor a courtesy call.
A courtesy call is 30 minutesto one hour and when I visited I
would see how they welcomed me,how they spoke, how they served
(37:34):
their tea, and I was pickinglessons from that, even if we
had already entertained in DC.
You know, americanentertainment sometimes is
casual.
J. Alex Tarquinio (37:45):
Yes, it's much more casual than diplomatic
dining, or even the way thatyou present a cup of tea in a
mission here at the UN is quitedifferent than it would be done
in a business environment or inNew York or Washington.
H.E. Linda Thomas Gr (37:57):
Absolutely so.
That helped me a lot from theneighbors and I started doing
regions and I haven't finishedvisiting all the 193 residences
in New York.
J. Alex Tarquinio (38:08):
Do you have a goal to do that before the end
of your term to visit all 193?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (38:14):
It's a must to at least meet them,
and being president of these twogroups has helped me.
Where I cannot go to theirresidence, I'm able to meet them
.
We can have a coffee, we cantalk and you know, that way you
keep learning from others.
So when it comes toentertaining at home, usually
the office will let me know ormy husband would tell me we have
(38:37):
so-and-so coming to theresidence.
Okay, and I'll ask the date.
I'll ask who exactly is coming,because of all the protocols,
all the rankings, because evenwhen we sit them at the table,
there's a ranking that has tofollow in terms of seniority.
If it's an ambassador that hasbeen in New York for a long time
(38:59):
, or if it's a certain rank fromhome, you know, if it's a, it's
the military team coming, whosits where?
Who sits at the head of thetable, who sits in the middle,
and all that placement.
Who sits where?
Who sits at the head of thetable, who sits in the middle,
and all that placement.
So I will ask for those detailsand every step of the way I'm
in touch with the office just sowe're on the same page.
(39:20):
Because, you know, sometimes wewives can get a little excited
and want to do things the way Iwant, but I always have to
follow with the guidance of theoffice.
J. Alex Tarquinio (39:31):
So there's a certain order of precedence for
the diplomatic corps, obviously,if you have a minister, that's
clear coming, and also themilitary, and the military would
be by rank, although there'salmost a counterpart in
diplomacy to rank.
And then, in terms of theservice during dinner, does the
(39:56):
chef and their staff, do theytake the clues, I guess, from
your husband, because there mustbe during the dinner service,
it's also probably an order ofprecedence and the flow of the
meal.
How does that work?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (40:07):
Yes , so when we host at home and we
need a service, the officestaff will come to help with the
dinner service and they alreadyknow the protocol so it's
easier.
So you discuss, you know beforethe dinner who's going to do
what.
Who in particular is going toserve who, because sometimes in
(40:29):
those protocols you'll find onlyone person can serve the most
senior person at the table.
J. Alex Tarquinio (40:35):
Is it based on?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (40:36):
the rank.
For example, we had our vicepresident and she had one person
who was on her team to serveher and the rest of us were
served by the people from theoffice.
So it's such protocols that Ihave to make sure I abide by.
Even if I live in thisresidence, I still have to
(40:58):
respect, because when you have asenior person such as the
honorable vice president, youhave to follow the protocols and
at times it could be fellowambassadors who go by who has
served longest in New York andthat's the one who take the head
of the other side of the tableand then we'll seat them
(41:22):
according to seniority.
So the preparations pretty muchare discussing the menu with
the office.
If I know what the people whoare coming like, it's very easy.
That's what will be on the menu.
But if I don't know, I try toinfuse a variety so that there's
something for everyone.
J. Alex Tarquinio (41:42):
And is there a blend of your native customary
food or do you try and infusesome of your traditional cooking
, or perhaps the traditionalcooking of your guests?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (41:53):
So if it's our nationals coming,
definitely our food will be onthe menu, yeah.
But if it's a variety of people, I've seen that the tradition
in New York is usually sea busyeah.
So once the menu is discussedand agreed, an officer from the
(42:14):
office will go either with me or, if they chose a caterer, they
will go together to buy the food, to ensure we buy the freshest
and, you know, the most goodlooking food out there.
And then all this is done theday before and then on the day
itself we just do the finaltouches and for me, I will make
(42:36):
sure a few days prior, we takeout the china.
Even if it's clean, we have toclean it again, ensure there's
enough china flatware andglassware.
We have what we call the coatof arms.
There's a male and a femalestanding, of course,
representing the family.
There's a cob of maize RememberI talked about our staple food.
(42:56):
There's the eagle the eagle,which shows the ability of
rising above our problems.
There are these wavy linesrepresenting the same colors
that you'd find in our flag, butalso the waviness represents
the Victoria Falls when it's anofficial dinner.
That's the China.
We will use your symbolism.
(43:17):
In your China, you show thestrength of your country.
It's also homage.
I mean, we're all here becauseof our country, so we take pride
in putting that on the tableand have the menu on the table
so that everybody knows whatthey're going to eat.
So the food tasting.
I prefer to do that becausesometimes the palate of somebody
(43:42):
might find it a bit strange totest food from Zambia.
J. Alex Tarquinio (43:45):
Oh, and you don't want it to be, for example
, too spicy, if it's not adinner where there are only
other Zambians there.
Now I would guess that the cheftastes the food, because you
also want to make sure that it'ssafe.
So you want the chef to.
I mean, I know you selectnothing but the freshest fruits
and vegetables and meats, butdoes the chef taste it first and
(44:07):
then you taste it for theflavor?
How does the tasting work?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (44:11):
The chef has to bring the food not
less than two hours before.
So she or he will taste it.
The chef she will, and we'lllook at her for 30 minutes
straight to make sure she didn'tdo anything there.
J. Alex Tarquinio (44:23):
Right, right, no.
So she is like they used to inmedieval times have the royal
food taster.
So the chef has alwaysfulfilled that role.
So she'll taste it first andmaybe half an hour so you'll
come in and say how is it, andthen you'll have a little taste
it and partly there you'relooking to make sure it's not
too spicy for your guests ifthey're not all Zambian.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (44:43):
Make sure the salt is right.
With all these dietary issues,make sure the food is fresh.
J. Alex Tarquinio (44:52):
Now, if this is done two hours before, I
guess you just then reheat it.
Well, that way you know it'salso done on time.
I imagine the timing is veryimportant.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfiel (44:58):
Yes , We'll bring out our chaffing
dishes and put all this food in.
You know that slow heating andat least 30 minutes before we
sit down to eat.
So you put some warm water in asecond dish, put it there and
put a burner underneath and thatdoes a good job.
You know, it doesn't distortthe taste of the food, it just
(45:18):
heats it.
J. Alex Tarquinio (45:19):
Now it sounds like it's also safer to have
the food for multiple reasons,to have it ready a couple hours
before.
But have you ever had any nearmisses, something you're almost
pulling your hair out becausesomething didn't quite work out
for for a diplomatic dinner?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfi (45:35):
thank god, no, uh, alex, I'm, I'm,
I'm hands-on, even when I knowthat there's help, even when I
know that officers will comefrom his office.
I do understand that these arehard-working people, mean I can
start the cooking on time.
I don't mind doing three, fourdishes before they arrive.
(45:55):
We're all trying to entertainhere.
We're all trying to create agood name for our country.
J. Alex Tarquinio (46:01):
And I should point out, obviously there are
some ambassadors who do not havea spouse or partner and I would
assume that in those missionsthey assign that role to a
member of staff.
That's true, you can speakofficially as a diplomatic
spouse because you are presidentof the United Nations Delegates
(46:22):
Spouses Club.
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (46:24):
Oh yes, we do a lot.
We do a lot of charity work.
There is a major event that wehold every summer and we
identify four to five countriesthat would benefit from those
proceeds.
For instance, this year, amongthem, we donated to the soldiers
of Ukraine for theirrehabilitation.
(46:46):
Another country benefited wasSudan, and then also Doctors
Without Borders.
J. Alex Tarquinio (46:54):
Obviously there are women representatives
of the UN, and do you have menin your group of diplomatic
spouses?
Are they a member of your groupand are they as interested in
performing some of these duties,making sure the diplomatic
dinners come off on time and toa level of perfection?
H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfie (47:13):
Yeah , so we do have male spouses,
and they too are in charge ofsupporting their peers in their
homes or residences.
For dinners, I've been toseveral where there's a male
spouse, and the dinners havebeen exceptional.
H.E. Vanessa Frazier (47:37):
And that's it from the Delegates Lounge.
We'd like to thank our esteemedguests, who have graciously
allowed us to share theirhard-earned insights into what
really matters.
And then there's you, ourlisteners, who we hope are
sufficiently edified to clamorfor more of the same.
Do drop in for a weekly episodeon Thursday, or from time to
time if we're on the road, forspecial events, in which case
there'll be a bonus episode.
(47:58):
Subscribe wherever you listento podcasts and, if you like
what you've heard, please take amoment to rate or review the
show, as it helps others whoshare your abiding interest in
world affairs to find their wayto the Delegates Lounge.
You can connect with us on manypopular social media platforms
or reach out to us directly atinfothedelicatesloungecom.
We're a small team so we can'trespond to every message, but we
(48:20):
will read them.
Our show this week was writtenand produced by the host and by
yours truly executive producer,frank Radford.
Until next time, keep calm andcurious.
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