Episode Transcript
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J. Alex Tarquinio (00:08):
Welcome to
the Delegates Lounge.
Pull up a chair.
I'm Alex Tarquinio, ajournalist based at the United
Nations here in New York Cityand your emcee for this podcast
featuring some of the mostinfluential minds in the world
today.
Settle in for some rivetingtete-a-tete, available wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Welcome back to the second dayof our continuing coverage of
(00:42):
the United Nations High LevelWeek at the UN headquarters in
New York.
Here at the Delegates' Lounge,we're interviewing several of
the foreign ministers and othersenior diplomats who are here,
with the world leaders takingtheir turns at the rostrum in
the General Assembly Hall.
Today, we're pleased to bringyou our exclusive interview with
the Minister of Foreign Affairsof the Republic of Estonia,
(01:03):
Markus Sakna, with the Ministerof Foreign Affairs of the
Republic of Estonia, MarkusSakna.
He became the Baltic nation'sforeign minister in April of
last year and previously servedas defense minister.
Join us for insights from oneof the key voices shaping global
diplomacy and artificialintelligence.
Estonia is poised to chair theFreedom Online Coalition, an
intergovernmental group aimed atprioritizing online
(01:24):
transparency.
As a recognized leader indigital innovation and
cybersecurity, Estonia willprioritize ensuring that
artificial intelligence upholdshuman rights.
We also spoke about the Pact forthe Future, a wide-ranging
policy document that had thesupport of the vast majority of
the UN member states when it wasadopted by consensus on Sunday.
(01:46):
However, Russia and a handfulof others objected.
If you'd like to learn moreabout this, I covered it in an
article that I wrote for ForeignPolicy that I'll include in the
show notes, and we spoke aboutthe widening conflicts in the
Middle East and, of course,Ukraine.
Here's our conversation.
Thank you, Mr Minister, formaking time to join us during
(02:14):
UNGA.
It's a busy week.
Obviously, the pact for thefuture passed by consensus, but
not unanimously.
It was a little contentious atthe end with the last minute
Russian amendment which wentnowhere.
Can you tell me first howimportant do you think the pact
is, the fact that it did pass byconsensus, and whether it will
(02:34):
make a real difference inpeople's lives?
Margus Tsahkna (02:37):
Yes, the pact of
future is important and of
course, it is not changinganything practically like today
or the next day, but it was animportant process.
It was very important for us aswell, as a small country, that
multilateral approach wassuccessful and there are lots of
(03:00):
rumors that why we need UnitedNations and if the Security
Council is not working.
But actually during this UNGAweek as well, we see that how
important it is that we willfollow as well the United
Nations Charter, territorialintegrity questio ns, but also
the President Biden was verystrong about the reform, about
the Security Council, thoughthis Pact of Future it's a very
wide paper, or the pact in themeaning, but I think the value
(03:22):
of that was that we were able toadopt it, we were able to pass
it and without voting who is proand favor?
But the voting was about that.
We are not going to vote, itwill be consensus thing.
And the other thing I think itwas very clear who were against
that, who wanted to stop it, andit was guided by Russia.
(03:43):
So for us as a small country, aneighboring country of Russia,
and also as frontrunners forfighting against Russian
aggression and for theterritorial integrity, it was
very important that Russia wasnot successful of ruining this
process and also it was clearthat which countries were
(04:03):
together with them.
I think that the future worldwill be more divided between
countries which are, how to say,understanding the importance of
the United Nations Charter weagreed, actually after the
Second World War internationallaw the rule-based world and who
are against that very clearly.
(04:24):
Law the rule-based world andwho are against that very
clearly.
And I think that Russiaactually made a great damage for
themselves because it was agreat, great majority.
It was all the countries, alldifferent continents, bigger and
smaller countries, who were infavor of this future pact.
J. Alex Tarquinio (04:40):
Actually,
that was very interesting
because Russia has been tryingto woo parts of the global south
, as we know, the last couple ofyears, as it's been isolated
since its full scale invasion ofUkraine, and it seemed to take
a real step back, because thepath to the future is very
popular with the global south,exactly To succeed.
Margus Tsahkna (05:01):
Yeah, but it is
a good sign that this United
Nations Charter, as a principle,also the common understanding
that we need to cooperate, weneed to find the common path, we
need to find consensus aboutthe future.
This is, as you said as well,more popular amongst all the
different parts of the world,for the smaller countries, for
bigger countries, but also, Ithink that there are some
(05:22):
practical values, as well asusing AI, that we are going to
deal with that.
Estonia is a digitalizedcountry.
Really, we are a digital nationin the meaning, and we have
already this AI strategy inplace.
But the good thing is that weare not avoiding that, we are
not just hiding it somewhere,because it will be a part of our
lives.
It will affect all of us as ahumanity as well, the human
(05:47):
rights, everything, and we agreeto deal with that, and this is
something big, I think.
J. Alex Tarquinio (05:52):
Well,
actually there are many things
in the pact I should explain tolisteners.
There's climate change,security Council reform,
international financialstructure reform, but one of the
most important things is AI.
In fact, an entire part of thepact is about the digital
transformation and Estonia hasbeen a real leader on this.
And I know Estonia is in theFreedom Online Coalition and you
(06:16):
have a lot of concern aboutyour psychological defense plan
for the use of disinformation.
But now AI aided disinformation.
But on the other hand you haveto balance this with freedom of
speech and freedom ofinformation.
So how do you, as Estonia'srepresentative on this coalition
(06:37):
, how do you see that balancebetween AI's use for good and
freedom of speech versus thepsychological defense you're
having to do againstdisinformation?
Margus Tsahkna (06:47):
exactly.
Ai has come and they never itnever leaves.
But be honest, nobody knows thelimits of that, so we need to
deal with that.
We we don't have to like saythat it doesn't happen.
It is happening right nowalready.
But there are likeopportunities and there are
risks as well.
But we see the opportunities asa digital nation in the meaning
(07:07):
of personal services, personalrights, access for freedom.
We think that the personalfreedom is most important as
well and AI can change it inpositive ways.
But also we don't know whereand what level this AI is going.
So we need to protect the humanbeing, we need to protect
humanity in the meaning of that.
(07:29):
The machine is not taking over.
We need to have this mancontrol there as well, about
very sensitive areas.
But as well, ai will goeverywhere.
Ai will go to defense, industry, wars, everything and also
disinformation.
But communication nowadays isalready personal, it's online,
(07:50):
it's in social media, so it'sharder and harder for people to
understand what is truth, whatis not truth and, to be honest,
this personalized communicationhas been used already to create
any kind of conflicts, and it'smy personal opinion has been
used already to create any kindof conflicts and it's my
personal opinion, there is afight for our minds and,
(08:11):
personally, it's not only thequestion anymore about the
governments what governments aredeciding whether they are
supporting one or the other sidebut this is global race about
the values, and AI will be usedin wrong ways.
I'm sure that we are not ablein the future to control it 100%
, but at least we should argue,we should agree what kind of
(08:31):
rules we are put in, becausethis is a revolutionary
situation.
I think that it doesn't happenwithin the next couple of
decades.
It is happening within the nextcouple of years.
Already, this digitalrevolution is everywhere.
J. Alex Tarquinio (08:45):
Can you tell
listeners a little bit about the
Freedom Online Coalition andalso how you see that working
with the United Nations, becauseobviously it's no secret.
Secretary Guterres has madethis a big focus.
Margus Tsahkna (08:56):
For Estonia.
Leading this coalition is avery practical approach as well,
because we have been takingvery active position about
digitalization, about AI in thefuture, about digital services.
In Estonia, we have 99% ofpublic services online already,
though what we need to explainis that this is a great
(09:18):
opportunity for everybody.
It is like part of the Fit forFreedom program that Estonia has
the personal freedom for people, so we need to guarantee the
access of Internet and alsoaccess for services.
In Estonia, we have the higheststandard of digitalization.
We can vote online.
We have e-voting.
(09:39):
Next year, we are introducingas well the mobile voting
M-voting we call that and it'snot like the case that we can
vote, but it's the question thatit's the highest standard for
democracies, that there is atrust amongst the government in
the meaning of using your dataand all the other principles.
Though, what we want to achieveis to protect the personal
(10:02):
freedom and rights through thedigitalization, because what we
have witnessed in our societyduring the last 20 years is that
we have gained a lot.
Our people have gained a lot.
We are more free than ever.
The personal freedom andpersonal rights and human rights
they are on that level that weare like leading and most of the
different, different resources,and this is an opportunity and
(10:24):
we have very deep cooperationwith African continent countries
.
It is changing the societiesand I think that these
developing eras, they can jumpon a new level, as we did 20
years ago.
We don't know how to use faxmachines, I don't know how to
use the checkbooks of banks, andnow these parts of the world
(10:47):
where we have the majority ofpeople living, they have the
crazy opportunities fordeveloping their freedom, their
life, equality, standards,everything.
So we take this position invery practical ways to deepen
the cooperation and also toexplain that this is like the
(11:08):
value-based approach we need toset the values we are following
and these are all somehowexplained with human rights and
personal freedoms and thisopportunity and it is very like
democratic part and alsodigitalization has given us the
(11:28):
transparency of the society,though every single person can
be free in the meaning of themost primitive ways.
J. Alex Tarquinio (11:39):
I'm very
interested in e-voting and I
don't know if you can tell me alittle bit about how that works.
I mean, there's a great deal oftrust involved in the voting
procedure.
People have to trust thegovernment that their vote will
still be anonymous, whenobviously, if it's an app, there
has to be some way of buildingin the anonymity so they don't
trace it back to your phone.
Margus Tsahkna (12:01):
Exactly.
We have had these debatesalready 20 years ago.
We have e-votings already morethan 20 years in Estonia, and
you're totally right, it's notthe technological approach, it's
a question of trust whetherpeople trust the government or
not and also we have theprinciple in Estonia agreed all
the data belongs to the person.
(12:22):
The person can check what ishappening with the data even
more than if the data has beenmoved on the paper.
You never know who is watchingand what is what is happening.
This is totally the other wayaround, and I think that this is
the the the the highest risk tomake this kind of reforms.
But we were succeeding, uh, 20years ago.
(12:43):
And the other part is the cyberattacks, the hybrid attacks.
So Estonia is constantly underhybrid and cyber attacks.
We have like more than 20,maybe 40 attacks per 24 hours,
and also our e-voting system.
We are testing it constantlywith the best hackers in the
(13:03):
world.
So, to show that actually itcan be protected and it has been
protected, though, I think wehave like a good example that
you, you create something new,you create the digital world and
you're able to protect it.
And these, these hackers, orthe, the attacks, they're not
only coming from Russia, they'recoming from North Korea,
(13:24):
they're coming from the privategroups, because we are like the
standard that everybody all thehackers, all the group they want
to break down.
But we have been succeeded mostof the times, though there's
always two parts, and to servethe trust of the people, you
have to show it that their datais safe and, of course, the M
(13:46):
voting.
Finally, yes, this application,this is application.
It's governmental application,but it's a question of trust and
belief as well.
But we always keep thetraditional way of voting in
life, in the meaning that,finally, whoever is not trusting
this can vote traditional ways,using the paper, and go and do
(14:08):
it because it is a voluntarything.
We don't, we cannot push peoplein the meaning of saying that
this is only online, and we havebeen witnessing that, even the
older generation.
They had taken over most of theonline and digital services
because they understand it'smuch more comfortable, and we
are hiding all the bureaucracyfrom the personal view, and
(14:30):
actually what is the result isthe quality and personalized
services, but also the time weare releasing, the time people
have more time for themselves ortheir jobs and or whatever.
This is something new.
We're trying to count how manyhours, days or years people
(14:51):
don't waste anymore forbureaucracy.
J. Alex Tarquinio (14:54):
I'm wondering
if you've also increased
participation, because certainlypeople in rest homes with
mobility issues might not havebeen able to get to the polls so
easily and are now more likelyto vote.
I don't know if you've kepttrack on whether participation
has increased.
Margus Tsahkna (15:07):
Participation
has increased because in Estonia
we have like one week you canmake the choices and, of course,
the final traditional vote.
If you decide finally to go andvote traditional ways, it
counts.
And we see as well the increaseof the younger generation
participation, really, really,because you know, sometimes they
don't care about the voting,but it's now cool, they can go
(15:30):
and participate.
J. Alex Tarquinio (15:30):
Yeah.
Margus Tsahkna (15:31):
But it also
gives us and puts us
responsibilities to guaranteethe objective information that
people actually will get theinformation what is going on,
who is who, what are the realstories, what are the political
choices.
So it affects as well thedebate, what we have in our
societies.
It affects the democracy.
J. Alex Tarquinio (15:53):
You mentioned
the hybrid warfare aspect of
the attacks, and it's not onlyRussia, it's North Korea.
Do you also see a lot of cyberattacks coming from Iran?
Margus Tsahkna (16:03):
I can say
different places, different
places, okay.
J. Alex Tarquinio (16:06):
I think we
can imagine what some of those
different places might be.
And speaking of hybrid attacks,I also wanted to ask you about
the hybrid use of immigration,which we saw a lot at the height
of the Syrian conflict and now,with growing violence we're
seeing in the Middle East.
Are you prepared, perhaps, formore of that?
Margus Tsahkna (16:25):
Yes, as a
neighboring country and border
country with Russia, we havewitnessed during the last two
and a half or three years heavyattacks, though we have changed
as well our policies.
But we are very clear we don'tlet anybody into our territories
, really, and I think thatRussia has understood as well
(16:46):
this situation, because they areweaponizing these poor people
who are suffering, because weare not against these people,
but we are against weaponizingthis immigration.
Also, we see the great changebetween the Finland and Russian
border and Finland has adoptednow the new regulations about
the immigration because of that.
(17:07):
But the hybrid attacks wewitness now in Europe, they are
not only the so-calledweaponized immigration attacks.
We see hybrid attacks inEuropean territories.
Estonia made at the end of thelast year, arrests about more
than 10 persons who were guided,financed and organized by the
Russian secret services in ourterritories.
(17:28):
So we witnessed already thedifferent attacks against
persons.
We see the attacks against thedifferent infrastructure in
Europe, in Germany, everywhere.
So this is one part of theRussian push to put our
societies under pressure.
But we decided, together withBaltic Sea, governments, that we
(17:51):
list all the hybrid attackswhat we and hybrid and cyber
attacks what we have had duringthe last two and a half years
and if you put all these hybridattacks, what we have had in in
europe from russia to to theperspective like three years ago
, I think that we have all beenin shock.
So what russia is doing, theyare pushing us, they are, they
(18:11):
are testing our limits, theywant to how to say to to tire
our societies.
So actually they have hybridI'm not calling it war, but
hybrid actions are there already.
It's a part of the Russianaggression behavior.
So this is something what we do.
We do it publicly, we publisheverything what we do and what
(18:32):
we know, not to panic, but justto show the people that actually
we are able to fight back.
So this is a new level ofaggression.
It's not like a classicalmilitary aggression, but it is
psychological hybrid action andwe don't know we never know what
is exactly going to happen nexttime.
J. Alex Tarquinio (18:51):
I don't know
if Estonia uses this expression.
Many countries, when theyexpress their support for
Ukraine, often say they're withUkraine as long as it takes, and
I have to admit, I don't knowif your government uses that
expression Not anymore.
Margus Tsahkna (19:06):
Until Ukraine
wins.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:07):
What is it?
Margus Tsahkna (19:10):
It is actually
that we need to push Russia back
to Russia.
We are not dealing Russia inRussia and it's not only the
question of Ukraine, it's aquestion of the security in
Europe, it's a question ofaccountability, it's a question
about the United Nations Charter, the international law, though
this is not only the militaryoperation.
(19:31):
Of course, the most rapid thingis to give Ukraine what they
need, to take down therestrictions, what we have put
or not we actually Estonia hasbeen always in the position that
Ukraine has a right to fightback, based on international law
, also in territories of Russia,though I do hope that the
restrictions will be removed,that actually Ukraine can fight
(19:54):
and to be clear, most of thoserestrictions are by the United
States and Germany.
J. Alex Tarquinio (19:58):
I mean, the
large weapon suppliers are the
largest to Ukraine, but they'vealso put restrictions on using
those in Russia.
So you feel that it's time tolift all those restrictions.
Margus Tsahkna (20:08):
Yeah, it has
time already two and a half
years ago but I do hope thatthis political decision of US
will happen soon.
It's not me to say what the USmust do or not, but our position
has been from the beginningthat Ukraine has all the rights
to use the weapons, alsotargeting in the territory of
Russia, and I do hope thatPresident Zelensky's victory
(20:31):
plan, which will be releasedwithin the next couple of days,
will be successful in themeaning I think that he's not
going to ask anything new.
I think that there will be theidea about the restrictions
about military support, aboutinvestments to the economy and
also energy system, becausewinter is coming and actually we
(20:56):
had a meeting with the G7 pluscountries about this and also I
think that invitation to NATO asa guarantee for the future
security will be there.
I do hope that it will happenbecause we have been witnessing
during the last two decades thatthe green gray eras or the
neutrality zones in theneighboring countries of Russia.
(21:18):
It has been only the greenlight for Putin to go in.
The only security guaranteewhich will work is the full
membership of NATO, and it'slike not only for Ukraine but
the other way around In ourregion.
I think in the future Ukrainewill play the huge role to
secure our military security aswell will play a huge role to
(21:41):
secure our military security aswell.
J. Alex Tarquinio (21:44):
What do you
think is prompting some allies
and partners of Ukraine to holdback in some ways and I know
obviously you're not a mindreader but is the reluctance
primarily due to a fear ofescalation?
Or do you think there arecertain red lines because
they're actually concerned?
What might happen if there's achange?
They're very used to Putin.
He's been in there a long time.
What is your sense as aneighbor on?
(22:05):
Are you concerned about whatmight come next if the Ukraine
situation.
Margus Tsahkna (22:11):
I think there is
like two mental problems I can
say.
One is a fear of escalation andPutin is using that, that.
But he's not reliable anymorebecause I remember when we gave
in the beginning of Russianaggression, the officers then
putin said that now there willbe an escalation, now we'll give
(22:32):
the fighters and the tanks andlong-range missiles and
everything, and putin is afraidof nato.
Putin is afraid of this kind ofescalation but he's using, like
I don't know, nuclearescalation.
We don't believe it will happen.
We don't believe it will happenbecause putin is afraid what if
he's going to use it?
Because he's going to betotally alone.
(22:53):
I'm sure that china and all theother countries will be very,
very, very concrete with that.
So the fear of escalation iswritten into some minds.
The second is that some biggercountries they are afraid of if
Russia loses, and it's the samemental position as we witnessed
(23:14):
in 1991 when the Soviet Unioncollapsed.
Iceland, the small country, wasthe first country to recognize
Estonian independence in 1991.
And then all the others came.
But I remember even that wewere told that maybe it's not a
good idea, you know, get atotally free country.
Maybe it's enough.
Let's have, like some, you know, period there, but it's like
(23:36):
some countries are afraid ifRussia will lose the war.
But we say that Russia mustlose and can lose the war,
otherwise the aggression willcome again, maybe not in Ukraine
, some other places, and we arethe neighboring country, though
Russia will remain at rest inthe future as well, whether
Putin is in Kremlin or not.
(23:57):
So I don't see the quick changenow in Russia.
Of course we would like to seethe democratic, normal country
as Russia, as a neighboringcountry, but this is a regime
thing.
It's not only Putin and that isRussian.
People must deal withthemselves.
So we are not dealing what ishappening in Russia, but we need
to push Russia back to Russiaand we need to establish these
(24:18):
accountability questions as well.
The aggression crime theaggression crimes is a
leadership crimes.
So we need a special tribunal,international special tribunal,
of that.
We were able to finish the lastconflict in proper way and it
was the Second World War, withthe Nuremberg process and all
(24:39):
the next conflicts where theWestern part has been
participating.
We don't know exactly how itended, with what it ended, and
this is like the bad thing.
We need to finish thisaggression and with a high price
for Russia and a good examplefor everybody that territorial
integrity is there,accountability is there and
responsibility of the leadershipis there.
J. Alex Tarquinio (25:01):
Tell us how
you define Ukraine winning and
Russia losing.
Margus Tsahkna (25:05):
I'm defining
that there cannot be any peace
negotiations or peace planswithout Ukraine, there cannot be
any peace processes in Europewithout Europe.
So the idea that Brazil orChina or whoever is going to put
place the uh, the, the peace,or the, the, the security
architecture in europe, this isnonsense, because ukraine must
(25:26):
be part of that, europe must bepart of that.
And then we declare together onthe conditions that, yes, this
is the win or this is the the,this is peace, but it must be
just and a long-lasting peace.
It means as well that we cannotrepeat the Minsk agreements,
what we already had, because weare sure that it will continue.
This aggression will becontinued, though it is hard to
(25:48):
say exactly what is the peace.
Now.
We have this, presidentZelenskyy, 10 points peace plan.
We agree with that, we supportthat, and also Estonia, together
with Argentina, has been takingresponsibility for the point
five.
This is territorial integrity,and also Estonia, together with
Argentina, has been takingresponsibility for, on the point
five, this is territorialintegrity and also United
Nations Charter.
But we are, we are leading this, this, this, this topic as a
(26:09):
number five though, but the mainrule is nothing without Ukraine
, because Ukraine is fightingthere.
I don't want to see Yalta willbe repeated again because we
were left out from the Yaltaprocess.
The Second World War wasfinished to our nation, that we
were occupied and we lostone-fifth of our population, so
(26:33):
we know this story very well.
J. Alex Tarquinio (26:35):
No repeat of
Yalta.
That's very clear Now.
Ukraine was a focus untilOctober 7th this last year.
Attention has been, shall wesay, divided, certainly here at
the UN, about the Middle Eastconflict, which obviously has
had an escalation this past weekfrom Gaza to Lebanon.
Margus Tsahkna (27:13):
Is there a
connection between them?
And also, what can the UN do inthe Middle East?
Is there anything it can dothere?
Estonia has been very clearabout the United Nations votings
about the Palestine resolutions, that we need to stand and we
need to protect as well theinternational law and rules,
though this is a verycomplicated question, but of
course they are related.
(27:34):
I don't believe that Putin isbehind everything Of course this
is a long story but believethat Putin is behind everything.
Of course this is a long story.
But Putin is very happy that wehave more and more different
conflicts, that we put ourenergy, attention and also
resources in, so any kind ofescalation as well outside from
Ukraine.
It is very useful for Putin aswell.
(27:55):
But we as Estonia, we are notonly focusing on what is going
on in Ukraine, in our region.
We are very much concerned whatis happening in Gaza, what is
happening actually in Africancountries, that Russia is very
active there as well.
It's very cheap actually tosupport this military groups to
take over with very undemocraticand brutal ways one or the
(28:16):
other country, and it is so hardto be present and do something
as a democratic union, asEuropean Union, so nobody knows,
it's not in people's mind thatthe European Union has been the
largest and the biggestsupporter for Palestine
government in the meaning theseprocesses.
(28:37):
So I'm very much concerned whatwill happen.
But I think that President Bidenhad very clear position as well
during this speech in theUnited Nations two days ago,
that a two-state solution is theonly way.
But it needs ceasefire, itneeds release of hostages and it
needs negotiations.
We don't see this will rightnow there, though, of course,
(29:00):
this attention which is goingaway from Ukraine and also
resources.
It's worrisome, but we have toface that all the conflicts in
the world are connected, all theconflicts and also the tensions
between China and Taiwan andthis region.
So we, as a small country, weuse this week of UNGA to reach
(29:21):
these countries.
We never normally meet toexplain that we are paying
attention to what is going onthere as well, but also
explaining what is happening inEurope, what is happening in
Ukraine and what is the cost ifwe are not supporting Ukraine.
J. Alex Tarquinio (29:36):
Well, in fact
, the UN does have some
limitations on what it can do.
Of course it did eventually voteon a Security Council
resolution for a ceasefire, butthere has to be will on the
ground.
Now, before you run off, I didwant to take a minute.
I told you I had onelighthearted question.
I did want to ask you about atypical dish from the Estonian
(29:56):
culture.
I'm asking all of the ministersand diplomats we speak with
this week, just to get a variety, you can tell us one of your
favorite dishes, something you'dlike to see served here at the
UN, to represent Estonianculture perhaps, and a little
bit about the culturalsignificance too.
Margus Tsahkna (30:13):
Yeah, we
normally have very traditional
dishes and it's very similar tolike the German cuisine, but
there's one specific thing.
This is the blood sausage, sowe are using the blood and then
we make sausages from that.
If I'm going to explain how wedo that, though, I think nobody
wants to eat that, so I'm notgoing to in details you don't
make the blood sausage at home,you buy it yes, we do.
(30:36):
Yeah, we do.
My mother can do it very well.
This, this is a traditionalthing, but normally, of course,
today's people, they are buyingthem from the shop, but it is
something very specific forEstonia.
But it's very tasteful.
J. Alex Tarquinio (30:52):
Okay, but you
don't actually slaughter the
hog.
Margus Tsahkna (30:55):
Somebody do that
.
J. Alex Tarquinio (30:56):
Okay, because
actually the inspiration for
this was an aunt of mine whowrote cookbooks, and she did
write about cooking on the farm,including hog killing.
Margus Tsahkna (31:05):
Time was one
chapter and modern breeders do
not understand it, I can tellyou honestly that when I was
younger and a student beginningof the 90s, when we had nothing
after the collapse of the SovietUnion, we got during the
collapse of soviet union, though, uh, we got, uh, during the
restoration of the privateproperty, we got back our farms
and lands and actually my family, uh, we, we actually had the
(31:29):
you know animals and we, we dideverything ourselves.
So I have, I have been the, the,farm country boy, I know
everything I can do the bloodsausages from the beginning.
J. Alex Tarquinio (31:42):
Yeah, no,
that's fascinating, but you
don't really recommend it forthe.
Margus Tsahkna (31:45):
No, I think that
today it's much more easy to go
and buy things from shop.
J. Alex Tarquinio (31:50):
Just tell me,
how long do you have to cure?
Do you have to cure the bloodsausage for a long time before?
Margus Tsahkna (31:55):
it's no,
actually it takes, put it on the
oven, maybe like half an houror whatever.
Oh really.
J. Alex Tarquinio (32:02):
Yeah, oh,
okay, so half an hour from
making it to not from actuallyslaughtering it.
No, no from that it takes Fromwhen you get the materials the
sausage you can Google how to doit.
Okay, I will.
We'll look up that recipe.
That's fascinating.
Margus Tsahkna (32:17):
Okay.
Frank Radford (32:24):
Well, thank you
very much for your time today,
and that's it from the DelegatesLounge.
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allowed us to share theirhard-earned insights into what
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(32:45):
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(33:07):
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Until next time, keep calm andcurious.