May 24, 2025 • 47 mins
Step into the TARDIS as we journey from the vibrant markets of Lagos to the dazzling stages of an intergalactic Eurovision in our analysis of Doctor Who's groundbreaking fifth and sixth episodes. These stories aren't just adventures in time and space—they're cultural landmarks that showcase the extraordinary vision of Shuti Gatwa's Doctor.
"The Story and the Engine" marks a historic milestone—the first Doctor Who episode penned by a black male writer and featuring an almost entirely black cast. We unpack how Inua Ellams transforms a Nigerian barbershop into a celebration of African storytelling traditions, exploring the episode's theatrical origins and its fascinating departure from the show's typically science-based approach. The Doctor's acknowledgment of his black identity creates powerful new dimensions to the character we've known for sixty years.
Meanwhile, "The Interstellar Song Contest" delivers a spectacle worthy of Eurovision itself, with Disney+ production values elevating the visuals to cinematic heights. But beneath the glitter lies a darker political allegory about oppressed peoples denied cultural expression. We examine how this episode—cleverly scheduled before the actual Eurovision broadcast—uses music as both weapon and healing force, while taking the Doctor to morally ambiguous territory we rarely see.
Both episodes reveal how Doctor Who has evolved into something profoundly personal, with themes and settings shaped around Gatwa's identity and interests. The reintroduction of classic elements—including the return of the Doctor's granddaughter Susan after nearly 60 years and the villainous Time Lord known as the Rani—shows Russell T Davies balancing innovation with reverence for the show's rich history.
What does this new direction mean for the future of Doctor Who? Join our conversation to explore how this iconic series is becoming more politically engaged than ever before, creating memorable television that tackles contemporary issues through the lens of science fiction. Share your thoughts on these episodes—we'd love to hear your perspective!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Spotlights fade, the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes,charlotte and John with the
final say, breaking down thescreens in their own way.
(00:35):
This is the final cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Wings of hope are pullingthrough.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome to another episode of Final Cut, and I'm
also I'm joined here with myhost, co-host, professor John
Cook, from Glasgow CaledonianUniversity, and today we're
going to talk about episode fiveand six of Doctor who, and it's
called the Story and the Engineand the Interstellar Song
(01:10):
Contest.
So to start with, so how didyou find out?
How did you like the episodes?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, hello there everybody and welcome to another
exciting episode of our Doctorwho Season 2 review.
So yeah, these two episodes,it's quite useful to speak to
them, speak about them togetherthe Story and the Engine,
episode 5, and the InterstellarSong Contest, episode 6.
And the reason I think thatthey're linked is really through
(01:46):
star power, the star, shutiGatwa, of the star of doctor who
, because they both episodes inmany ways reflect and are sort
of modeled in around his ownimage and the things that he's
interested in.
So the story in the engine isset in africa and shuti gatwa
has um, although he has hybridlineage, he he was brought up in
Scotland but he is of Rwandanheritage.
(02:07):
And then the Interstellar SongContest and maybe we can touch
on this in more depth as thepodcast goes on I think is
really an allegory for Palestineand Shudy Gatwa has strong
feelings about the situation,about the plight of the
Palestinians.
(02:28):
So both episodes reallyinteresting, fascinating, and
let's get into a bit more depthon them.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So for our viewer from abroad here, we just need
to explain that the EurovisionSong Contest is a contest where
you compete in music and youhave songs from about 12 to 14
countries all competing to bethe sort of top song.
Each country is represented withone song and they're mostly
(03:01):
European countries, but morerecently you also had Australia
and Israel and some othercountries join, and in the past
you always used to sing in yourown language, but now a lot of
the songs seem to be in Englishand they have various finals and
then it becomes a semifinal andthen the top final is normally
(03:24):
in the host country of thewinner from last year, and there
, and then on the night, the bignight when everyone is tuning
in from all, all over Europe andsometimes all over the world,
the winner is sort of crownedground.
But yes and but.
However, we start with a storyin Indian, who's indeed set in
(03:49):
Africa, and it's about a barbershop where the barber has gone a
bit wild and kidnapped hisclients, so to speak, or his
people coming in for haircuts,and my first question is then so
it's a lot about story, and ofcourse I can imagine sort of
(04:10):
African storytelling andstorytelling as a whole.
So how did you think thisconcept of storytelling?
How effective was it to use theplot device and the thematic
element?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, the strength of the episode, I think, was the
emphasis on storytelling and areally interesting setting for
this episode.
So it's set in a barber's shopin Africa I think it's actually
in Lagos and the idea is that itplays into a key aspect of
(04:45):
black male culture, which isgoing to the barber where men
can gather together and tellstories.
Black writer with links toNigeria, who in 2017 had a hit
(05:06):
play in England called theBarbershop Chronicles, and
essentially what has been doneis the setting of that play in a
barbershop, where a bunch ofblack males gather and swap
stories and anecdotes istransplanted into Doctor who, so
that suddenly we get a sciencefiction element to it.
(05:29):
And, in actual fact, thesetting in Lagos has the same
cast that appeared, I think,with one exception that appeared
in the stage version, theBarbershop Chronicles.
So it's a very interestinghybrid episode this one
exception that appeared in thestage version, the Barbershop
(05:49):
Chronicles.
So it's a very interestinghybrid episode, this, where it's
sort of melding a theatre playsetting with, you know, a
typical Doctor who sciencefiction spin in it.
So I think the strengths of theepisode are the emphasis on
storytelling and a veryinteresting setting for a Doctor
who story, one that's neverbeen explored before.
Another great strength is thevirtually all-black cast.
(06:12):
I think, with the exception ofa flashback scene, all the
actors who appear in the episodeare of colour, and so I think
that's definitely a first forDoctor who.
I mean quite shocking in a way,that it's only since 2018 that
we've started to see blackwriters write for Doctor who or
be invited to write for Doctorwho.
(06:33):
In fact, inua Ellams is thefirst black male to have
contributed a Doctor who script.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The previous three have been black females, so, in
that sense, story in the engine,a very groundbreaking episode
for doctor who I must say I wasreally impressed by the set of
whether, how they I mean youalmost feel as if you're
transported into nigeria, to amarket there, to a bustling
market.
It was not after seeing umdoctor who's unleash where you
(07:03):
could understand that this wasall set was actually you almost
thought that the production teamhad gone on a trip to Africa.
So what do you think of thesetting?
How significant is the settingthat the narrative logs Nigeria?
Is it that they want to?
Is it that they wish to portrayAfrican culture, do you think?
(07:24):
Or is it to wanting to enhanceAfrican culture, do you think?
Or is it wanting to enhance itto a bigger audience?
Or why do you think they chooseNigerian-African?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Well, you know, again I come back to star power.
I think, although Russell TDavis is the showrunner of
Doctor who, the show, you know,doctor, who has always modeled
itself around the star, uh, thestar actor playing the doctor,
uh to um, you know, essentiallyhave stories that reflect um,
(07:59):
his particular kind of interestsand in a way, so that that will
make something interesting andand more powerful for the screen
.
I mean a trivial example, um,far more trivial than the issues
we're discussing today, is thefifth doctor.
Peter davidson was a bigcricket fan, uh, so what do you
know?
Suddenly, in doctor who, backin the early 80s, the Doctor
(08:22):
suddenly has his cricket garband in several episodes or
different stories he's suddenlyrevealed to have a great love of
English cricket.
So it's that idea of modellingaround the star and reflecting
the image of the star.
Now, in this case, far moreprofoundly, you have the first
Doctor, its first black doctor,and one key line, which I think
(08:49):
is done rather effectively atthe start of the episode to
explain suddenly that the doctorappears in Nigeria, is the idea
that he talks to his companionBelinda, saying that he
acknowledges that he's the firstdoctor to inhabit a black body
(09:09):
following all theseregenerations and therefore
feels more comfortable withinblack culture, because there are
still places in the world manyplaces that are racist and where
he feels slightly different.
So that immediately sets up astory context for why the Doctor
would feel so comfortablewithin black African culture.
So the setting works well.
(09:32):
The episode, I think, has metwith quite high praise from a
range of different critics and Ifelt that there was a lot of
strong aspects to the episode.
However, at the same time, Idid have reservations, things
that I thought were a little bitnot really fitting within the
(09:54):
Doctor who context, and I'mhappy to go into these if you
want a bit more, charlotte.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Sure.
I must say, though, before,that the gentleman played the
barber.
I thought he was kind offantastic and what came out of.
My next question is how do youthink the doc's interaction with
the barber and Abene in thisrevealed different facets of his
character, especially regardingpast action and the
(10:20):
consequences?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And also, please do tell us about things you felt
maybe also a bit out of placeyeah, um, so the, the setting of
the barber shop, a fascinatingnew angle for us to explore in
doctor who and the power ofstorytelling.
But at the same time, to meanyway, um, uh, it felt a little
(10:42):
bit too much like a theatreplay Once you were in that
barbarous setting.
There was a long scenes of justyou know, a bunch of characters
trapped in that setting.
So in that sense it wasn't verytelevisual, it was very
dialogue led.
Another key weakness that Ifelt, perhaps arising out of the
(11:05):
writer's background in theatre,was there's a classic line or
lore in screenwriting show nottell.
So you know, rather thandescribe things and give the
audience verbal cues, youactually show it.
And give the audience verbalcues, you actually show it.
(11:30):
But in this episode there was anawful lot of what Austin Powers
used to call basil exposition,a lot of expository dialogue
telling us about things that wecouldn't possibly know until
people essentially explainedthis plot to us.
And I have to say, you know,watching it and I watched it
with my 14-year-old son, who'san avid Doctor who fan, as you
know, charlotte and he, like me,couldn't really understand it
(11:55):
the first time.
It needed a second watch to beable to actually understand it
and appreciate it.
So that is maybe a weaknesswith this particular episode.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that and I also sometimes I
agree that I thought also thestory was a bit too predictable.
However, um, I just wonder, Ithink I wonder if the reason why
they had to explain so much wasbecause, actually, that it was
quite loosely based on this play, so that if you had seen the
(12:26):
play you might have understoodbetter what the reference was,
so that they sort of had to fillin the backstory for the
audience.
I don't know if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, no, I think.
From what I understand, anywayfrom what I've read of the
barbershop chronicles, the playis actually set in the uk and
explores sort of black maleculture in the uk.
So I think it's only really thesetting and many of the cast
who appeared in that stageversion who've been recruited to
play in doctor who.
But, um, no, the story itselfis about mythology and it's
(12:58):
about the power of storytelling.
So in that sense it's adifferent concept and premise to
the barbershop chronicles,albeit linked by this idea of
black men telling stories toeach other.
But it's about, you know, it'sthe story in the engine.
It's a science fiction plotabout the gods of storytelling
(13:20):
needing to be fed.
But that touches on another keyweakness that I thought
personally, that maybe hasn'tbeen brought out by other
critics and commentators thatI've heard, which is this notion
that at one point in theepisode the doctor says you know
you cannot sever the linksbetween humans and gods.
(13:40):
You know humans need their gods.
And I thought to myself this isvery strange for doctor who in
terms of the the 60 year historyof the show, because the doctor
has always been a man and veryoccasionally a woman of science.
Uh, where, if, if the doctor inthe past had encountered
(14:01):
supernatural aspects, it wouldbe ultimately explained as some
evil villain trying to put fearinto the hearts of their victims
.
But in fact, in the end,science and rationality figure
it out.
Here we had a Doctor very muchin tune with African culture but
(14:22):
at the same time in a sensesaying that humans need their
gods and that the god you knowthey need to have a relationship
with the supernatural andsuperstition, and that seemed a
little bit off to me in terms ofthe 60-year history of Doctor
who.
So this touches on aspectswhich I think is true of both
(14:44):
the episodes that we'rereviewing today, of aspects of
the show that are kind ofslightly jarring in terms of the
history of Doctor who Verystrong episodes and very
interesting stories andrevelations and plots.
But having that, whether itfits into the Doctor who mythos,
(15:04):
perhaps the Russell T Davisshould he get what you know, is
taking us too far away from theway that the Doctor has
traditionally been written.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
But could it not be?
I don't know, it may be my kindof guessing, but could it not
be?
I don't know, maybe my kind ofguessing, but could it be that
Disney could have an influencethere, because Disney in the
story they have a lot of godsand it's a lot about mythology.
I just wondered if they weretrying to sort of link it up
with Disney kind of mythology.
Maybe just a guess.
(15:35):
Anyway, I wanted to go on andmove on to talk about the
production design, because thatwas another thing I thought was
great.
So we know that the barbershophere is both sort of familiar
but also a spaceship.
So how do you think theproduction design contributed to
this duality and what do youthink challenges it to?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well, the production design is great.
I mean on both.
You've talked about disney, onboth, um, this episode, an
interstellar song contest, um,fantastic production design.
When we move outside of thebarber shop, uh, and see
actually that the barber shop isbeing carried on the back of a
giant sort of scary robot spider, um, no expense has been spared
(16:19):
in that respect, and you know.
To come back to your pointabout Disney, that's a very
interesting point.
You know about Disney andmythology and so on.
It is certainly the case thatRussell T Davis has announced
that the Doctor who is movingmore into the fantasy realm in
these two seasons, theShurigatwa era, than straight
(16:40):
science fiction.
There are some straight sciencefiction stories, but a lot of
it is more fantastical.
But it's explained by the ideathat, as happened in an episode
in the David Tennant specialscalled Wild Blue Yonder, that
the Doctor has inadvertently letgods into our universe.
But I don't have an objectionto that, but it's the idea that
(17:00):
the doctor himself would somehowsay that that we need our gods,
and and to me that that seemeda little bit off, uh.
But yeah, absolutely agree, theproduction design, uh, is first
rate okay.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So how do you okay?
So, if that often, how do youthis?
How do you think this episodefit with the broader content of
dr who's exploration of identityand mythology?
Because I feel that there hasbeen quite a lot of talks about
gods recently, but in terms ofum remember we had god of lights
and god of that's, yeah, oh,yes, there's, the gods are
(17:36):
invading the universe and Ithink we're about to.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
that's going to reach a crescendo in episodes seven
and eight, which is the two-partseason finale for season two of
this reboot-y Doctor who.
The two episodes are Wishworld,which is coming up on May, the
24th in terms of originalrelease date, followed by the
(18:01):
final episode, the finale.
So the reality war, it's called.
So yeah, it's happening and thegods are around, and so the
theme of the gods is consistent.
It was just the way in whichthe Doctor dealt with it.
But moving on, there's also inthis episode the introduction of
(18:24):
the fugitive doctor, uh, areturn of of an old character,
again fitting very much withinthe black cast theme, because
the fugitive doctor as revealedin the chris chibnall era is a
sort of predecessor to what weoriginally thought was the first
doctor played by will WilliamHartnell in the 1960s.
But again, there seemed a giantplot hole there for me, because
(18:44):
the Doctor seemed to remembermeeting a character as the
Fugitive Doctor, but the idea,or the original premise anyway,
was that the Fugitive Doctor hadbeen blocked out of the
Doctor's memory.
So again, there was a giantplot hole there.
So it suggests a slightdisregard for the canon of the
show at the moment.
This also continues into theInterstellar Song Contest, which
(19:08):
we can perhaps move on to.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So just before we move on, there's a final
question.
So what has been the criticaland audience response to this
episode and what does itindicate about the direction of
the series?
So I felt that when what I cameacross was that maybe not super
positive response, but how didyou use, what did you read and
what did you find out?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
but the audience reaction well, I think, in terms
of pure ratings, there was aslight bounce, um from I about
1.5 million in UK viewers.
This is viewers in the UK onovernight ratings.
So this is not countingstreaming ratings yet, which is
(19:52):
yet to be totaled up andreleased publicly anyway, but
I'm talking about overnightratings.
So so doctor who, as we'vetouched on before is, is
troughing with with very lowovernight television ratings,
this show had a slight bounce ofabout sort of 90 000 viewers, I
think, uh, to about 1.59million.
(20:13):
However, the interstellar SongContest gained another million
viewers, suggesting that well,we can perhaps come on to why in
a minute.
So that's been the raw ratingsdata.
But in terms of critical andaudience reaction, as I said
(20:34):
earlier, the story in the enginehas been very favorably
received.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Well, okay, let's move on then to Interstellar
Song Contest, and, as a Swede, Iwas really excited to remember.
Well, I didn't remember, butthe reminiscence of Abba in the
1974 winning this EurovisionSong Contest with Waterloo.
However, yes, I thought it was,I was really looking forward to
this episode and it didn'tdisappoint.
(21:01):
I thought it was great.
However, what was your firstreaction to the Interstellar
Song Contest?
Did it capture the spirit ofDoctor who and Eurovision?
Did you think?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, it was certainly a lot of fun and we
need to explain to perhaps ourlisteners and viewers who are
outside the UK.
Charlotte, at the verybeginning you set up a very good
introduction of what theeurovision song contest is, but,
um, the key fact with thisepisode of doctor who is that it
(21:31):
was aired in the uk on on bbc,uh, just before the eurovision
song contest went out live at 8pm.
Uh, saturday night, saturdaythe 17th of May.
So Doctor who was shown 50minutes earlier, starting at 10
past seven, and so the episodehad been conceived as being an
(21:54):
episode that would precede theEurovision Song Contest and, in
that sense, provide a sort ofEurovision night for BBC
television.
Now, there was a little bit ofa worry on the production team's
(22:21):
part because, prior to, doctorwho would have to be junked from
the the schedules and um movedto another um BBC channel.
Um, fortunately for the team,that did not happen because the
FA Cup final finished on cue atthe right time, which allowed
this episode to air, um, exactlyas planned, 50 minutes before
(22:42):
the Eurovision Song Contest.
So it's a hammock between twolive events and, in terms of our
ratings discussion, thatexplains why it got a bounce of
a million viewers.
So it's called.
In the TV industry it's calledhammocking, where you have two
successful programs, in thiscase two live events, and you
(23:03):
put a program in the middle andthat program will both gain from
those who had tuned into the FACup final and it also gains
from those who are beginning toswitch on to get ready for
Eurovision.
So I think that, rather thannecessarily the intrinsic
quality of the episode accountsfor the ratings bounds of a
million viewers.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
But coming back to my second question, do you think
that the episode in itself whichI thought was great really
entertaining, but do you thinkit captures the spirit of both,
the spirit of Doctor who andEurovision?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Certainly captures the spirit of Eurovision,
although with quite a darkpolitical story underlying it
and again coming back, I think,to Shuti Gatwa's support of the
Palestinian cause.
In terms of your question aboutDoctor who fitting in with the
canon, it was very much withthis episode.
(23:59):
Yes and no.
It seemed what they were doingwas introducing old characters
from the past of the show thevillain, the Rani, which is
revealed at the very end of theepisode, so spoilers, but that
is an old Doctor who villainthat is returning to be the big
(24:19):
bad, if you like, of thisparticular season.
And also, for me, mostpoignantly and I'm just amazed
they've never done this soonerthey've brought back the
Doctor's granddaughter from theoriginal William Hartnell era,
who is making, at the very least, a cameo in this particular
episode.
(24:39):
The actress herself is now 80years old, so we've got this
rather ironic um juxtapositionof an elderly lady playing the
granddaughter of um, a youngblack actor.
So that's that's kind ofinteresting, uh.
So, yeah, it's very much withinthe the canon.
But to me, though, there wasquite a lot of lurches of tone
(25:01):
in this episode, including inthe Doctor's character, which I
felt was a little bit.
The episode seemed a little bitall over the place in that
respect.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
So the episode playfully riffs on Eurovision.
How do you, what do you thinkthis Doctor who episode says
about the importance of music,and particularly in the
spectacle, in popular culture,this idea that the role of you
know, artists and music has inpopular culture, this idea that
the role of you know, artistsand music has in popular culture
.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yes, well, I think the episode is a celebration of
Eurovision in that sense,particularly its resonance in,
certainly, the last couple ofdecades.
It's embraced, you know'sembrace, you know gay culture
has embraced it and um, it'scertainly true that um, with, uh
(25:51):
, you know, a gay actor in inthe main role of doctor, who in
a gay showrunner that there is,you know, the lgbtq plus um
feeling of this, you know,iteration of doctor who has
never been stronger.
So, for example, you had inthis current episode a gay
couple that suddenly got ropedinto the Doctor's adventures and
(26:13):
what have you.
So the Eurovision, I think, wascelebrated in that sense.
But coming back to the darknessof it, we also had, underlying
it, russell T Davies' pitch tothe writer of this particular
episode, a person called JunoDawson, was this, and it kind of
sums up the episode.
(26:34):
He said what I want is for youto write an episode in which
Eurovision meets Die Hard, andso what we have is a terrorist
figure taking over the controlgallery of this supposed contest
that has now spread beyondEurovision to the whole galaxy
as the Interstellar Song Contestand it's taken over.
(26:58):
But it's in that element of theterrorist that we begin to get
quite political, and it is verymuch you know.
The idea that we begin to getquite political, and it is very
much you know it's the idea thatthere has been a race that's
been whose culture and land hasbeen devastated by a corporate
(27:18):
invading force is the premise ofthe show and that they are
denied a voice and not allowedto participate really in most
parts of not only the songcontest but the wider culture of
this particular futuristic era.
And it's absolutely no stretchto see that as an allegory for
Israel taking part and has takenpart in the Eurovision Song
(27:41):
Contest of the 1970s, but thatin recent decades there's been a
lot of criticism about the factthat why is Israel in the
Eurovision Song Contest?
You know, shouldn't we, youknow, shouldn't there be
solidarity with the Palestinianpeople, etc?
And so you have the corporationthat's trying to, in the
episode, keep the lid on all ofthis in a way directly echoing
(28:06):
the way in which the organisersof Eurovision Song Contest in
recent years have tried tomanage the situation in such a
way that it doesn't become akind of political event, even
though by default it effectivelyis.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Well, I sort of agree with the interpretation, but
when I saw it I actually agreewith the interpretation.
But when I saw it I alsothought about other sort of
interpretations that are to dowith other terrorist attacks.
I mean, if you think about theattack on Ariana Grande and some
attacks that have been inconcert halls in Germany,
(28:44):
similar where there has beenkind of an event and then but
yes, it has suddenly beengrowing much more darker and
perhaps more depressing aspect.
But moving on then.
But I also want to touch on theLATP aspect, of course not
(29:07):
related to this, but one thing Idid like with this episode was
that the gay couple wasn'tbrought in as a gay couple.
Instead, they were kind of justbrought in as a couple and then
you realize they were gayafterwards.
Yes, yes, they were less of atoken.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yes, no, that's true that it was more subtext.
Um, you know, it just happenedto be two men's, sort of right,
I think the subtext was.
You know one point, I think oneof them says oh, I would follow
you anywhere, doctor.
Uh, so you're right, it's a gaysubtext.
Um, uh, no, you know, thechildren's audience might not
necessarily have picked up onthat aspect about the two men.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
How do you think the format of a music contest shaped
the narrative of the structurecompared to a more traditional
that, using this as a?
I mean, I thought it was quitefor me.
I thought it was quiteinteresting making that as a
device of a music contest, butobviously it's quite different
to what normally shows wouldobserve.
How did you think?
Do you think that was aneffective part of it?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yes, well, music is increasingly coming into the,
the new Russell T Daviesiteration of Doctor who with
Shidi Gatwa.
So we had, for example, bonAfaeri singing and dancing in
the season one, episode two.
I think it was the devil'schord in which people burst into
song.
We've also had song featured inthe introduction of Shuti Ghat
(30:34):
was the doctor, which was theChristmas special.
The church on Ruby Road we hadin the I think it was in the
hall of the goblins there was asinger and interestingly yeah,
so the person that I think itwas in the Hall of the Goblins
there was a singer and,interestingly, oh, yes, yeah
that was yeah.
So the person that sung thatactually comes back in this
episode heavily disguised as analien and sings.
So bringing music into Doctorwho is something I think that
(30:56):
has been an aspiration ofRussell T Davis.
But in this case, you know,music is being used as the way
in which to resolve problems.
That's the theme of it, I think.
So the terrorist is defeatedbecause he tries to use violence
, whereas there is one characterwho is a singer in the contest
(31:19):
who, as the episode goes on,reveals herself to be actually
one of these aliens, helion.
She had hidden her identity,but through the power of song
she's able to move the entireaudience and to recognize the
plight of the helion people.
Um, at the same time, you knowyou could have a counter reading
and say well, does that meanthat that, um, it's all?
(31:42):
Just um, just, the onlyplatform she has for political
protest is through music and shecannot do anything else.
So you could read that as beingslightly odd, dodgy politics.
You know that ultimately, theonly way that people respond is
through song, but it doesn'tactually change anything.
(32:03):
But certainly within theepisode I think it's set up that
violence is wrong.
However justified.
Your cause, your politicalcause, violence in this case.
I think the terrorist wants tokill three trillion people and
instead, what you must do isparticipate in the conventional
(32:23):
structures in order to try andbring about change through
culture and dialogue.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
So maybe that at the Eurovision the music brings them
together.
I actually thought that whenshe sang the Helenine song
although not, I know, we don'tunderstand a word of what you're
saying I thought it was pretty,very moving.
It was very kind of strong,because it must be quite
difficult to sing a song, youknow, in a kind of completely
(32:51):
alien language.
But yes, that was a moving.
So maybe.
But coming back to this aboutsongs and music, so how did you
think that the anthems usessound ways to feed on emotion
and life force?
How does that fit into theclassic doctor who villain
(33:11):
archetype?
But also this for the fact thatthey're using sound ways, given
coming back to the previousprevious two episodes where they
were the lux, where they usedlight, I mean it's like uh, yes,
it's going to connect theepisodes a bit, I think.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yes, that's an interesting point.
You know the elemental aspects.
You know we're getting quitebasic territory here.
You know light and now sound.
Sound ultimately being used,trying to be used for evil
purposes, and that's defeated bythe Doctor, but alternatively,
sound being used positivelythrough the singing of the song
(33:47):
in the contest.
It did strike me.
I mean it's entirely likely.
Although I don't know the exacttimelines, it's entirely likely
that this episode was conceivedand written after Ukraine in
2022, just after the invasion oftheir country won the
Eurovision Song Contest of thatyear.
(34:08):
So I wouldn't be surprised ifthere's a little bit of a
Ukrainian subtext going in thereas well, about a land being
invaded and being destroyed andthe Song Contest ultimately
being used as a platform to drawattention to that.
So, yeah, so it's notnecessarily all Palestinian
(34:29):
issues, but I think it isimportant to realise that the
star of this show now, shuriGatwa, is a strong Palestinian
supporter and, revealingly, whenIsrael qualified through the
semifinals to appear in thefinal of the Eurovision Song
Contest last Saturday, shudy Gatwas originally down to announce
(34:49):
the results of the UK jury,which is a great tradition where
, you know, stars from differentcountries appear to represent
their country, and Shudy wasdown to do that and as soon as
Israel qualified he pulled out.
He hasn't given his reasons, butit's highly speculated it's
because he didn't want to be inthe awkward position that if,
say, israel had won theeurovision song contest, they
(35:10):
didn't, they came second.
Um.
So it's very important torealize that um, there's a
strong palestinian subtext tothis, um, this episode, and
again I come back to my point atthe start that in both of these
episodes we've reviewed the,the story in the engine and the
interstellar song contest.
There are strong culturalpolitical themes that very much
(35:33):
reflect and mirror the currentstar of the show and what he's
interested in.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Sure, I guess we have to say that this is speculation
, but I also think that, yeah, Iagree, as I said, it could be
that, but it could also be anoppressed, like an oppressed,
any sort of oppressed nation asa metaphor of a wider theme of
an oppressed nation, like.
I mean, if you take, bring forexample, sweden with the, uh,
(36:10):
native population, by the, theboar, um, by the other part of
the population, do you see whatI mean?
And uh, and in, but moving back, coming back then to the
episode, if we look at just thequality of episode itself, so
how did you find episodes,visual and musical creativity,
(36:31):
in terms of costume performance,and I think I was really
impressed, I mean, when I sawthis, um, dr who, um, sorry, the
, the, the companion show, um,when they talked about the fact
that they had to create all themusic and they all created all
the, the costumes, and I mustsay I was it was really
(36:54):
impressive To me.
It very much looked, eventhough it was alien, it looked
very much like, you know,something that could have passed
for Eurovision.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Absolutely, and you know the special effects.
This is where you know Disneyhas really upped the ante in
terms of the budget.
I mean the, the sequence whereum the doctor, along with most
of the audience of the of theinterstellar song contest, finds
himself blown out into spacewhere they have to float around
and I think it's in this in thestory, it's supposed to be about
(37:28):
150 000 people you, youactually do see, you know a
massive body, you know thespecial effects is almost well,
pretty much is movie quality nowyeah.
So that is, you know, noquestion, it was a very strong
episode visually and in thatsense it was more of a visual
(37:50):
episode than the bulk of thestory and the engine.
So, yeah, no, the show is.
You know, there's some aspectswhere I have reservations about
both episodes, but there's noquestion that this run of Shitty
Gatway episodes is probably,episode per episode, stronger
than season one and certainly arange of very interesting
(38:14):
stories and characters that nowset us up nicely for the
two-part finale.
The Wishworld is coming up,followed by the finale on May
the 31st, when it's firstreleased, called the Reality War
, and in this, as I've saidearlier, we have the return of
the Raniani, a villain thathasn't been seen in doctor, who,
(38:35):
I think since 1989, um, a sortof female version of the master,
a sort of villainous time lordtime lady um, and, as I say you
know, phenomenally, the returnof susan, the original companion
to the, the original doctor, um, and, as I say, I can't believe
.
You know, I felt sorry for thelady that she'd been kept out of
(38:57):
doctors for so long, I think,uh and it wasn't the party,
until the party, that theyrealized they could bring her in
.
That's right apparently russellt.
She met russell t davis at aparty um, and I just thought you
know they must bring her back,because I mean time is marching
on and I mean that story hasbeen unresolved since 1965, I
(39:18):
think whatever happened to Susanthe actress herself has
appeared in a cameos, in acouple of sort of multi-doctor
episodes, shall we say, but it'snever been satisfactorily
explained what happened to her.
So I presume that in the twoepisodes coming up we're finally
(39:38):
going to learn what happened tothe Doctor's granddaughter.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
But bringing back the companions.
How did you think this settingallowed the Doctor's personality
and her relationship with hiscompanions?
How did it work with Belinda inthis episode and how did you
think Belinda performed, and interms of yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Belinda is in Interstellar Song Contest.
Belinda plays a very importantpart because she reminds the
Doctor of the need forcompassion.
Now this touches on one of theneed for compassion.
Now this touches on one of theaspects where I felt there was a
lot of lurching of thecharacter and indeed the tone of
this episode.
So the Doctor suddenly we'reled to believe because he's been
(40:24):
ejected into space and almostdies through being frozen,
before, in a very bizarre way,rescuing himself it would take
too long to describe how hemanages to get back into the
contest.
But after that he suddenlybecomes villainous himself.
He says I've had a little bitof ice in my heart, he tells the
(40:45):
terrorist, and at one pointabout the end of the episode he
starts to torture the terrorist.
Now we've seen the dark side ofthe Doctor before, but I don't
think we've ever seen the Doctorlurch into genuine evil.
And certainly there areelements of that torture
sequence that are quite strong.
(41:06):
I believe the writer of theepisode asked Russell T Davis,
you know, can I go darker?
And Russell T Davis said sure,can I go darker?
And Russell T Davis said sure,you know, make it go even darker
, but there is a danger that inso doing you kind of weaken the
character of the doctor and hispresence as a force for good in
(41:27):
the universe, and in thisepisode it's only Belinda's
intervention that reminds thatin fact he needs to show
compassion.
So a lot of latching around,quite a light episode, the
Interstellar Song Contest on onelevel with Eurovision, and
quite fluffy and some fun.
Then you've got this darkpolitical subplot and then
(41:48):
you've got this dark turn in theDoctor as well.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So it was definitely an episode of contrasts yeah, I
must say I was a bit shockedabout that, and particularly,
you know, the doctor is a rolemodel for children and yeah,
yeah, so that was funny, andalso the fact that they wondered
about this, that with the eyes,and does it suddenly go darker?
Um, yeah, however, can I justask you so do you think this
(42:16):
episode, one thing that kind of,was in our back of the mind?
Do you think it was made for dr, for dr who fans or fans of
eurovision or both, and I sortof wondered, do you think it was
a chance here, like to kind oftease in eurovision Labo, to
look at Doctor who?
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, in a way.
I mean Doctor who's underRussell T Davis has always
ridden these two differentponies.
In one sense, you're obviouslymaking it for the established
audience, but you want thataudience to grow and of course
one of the great concerns, Iguess, of the Shudigatwa run is
that that audience has not beengrowing.
It's not even been level.
It's effectively declined to asort of you know um, a sort of
(43:00):
low point of about 1.5 millionovernight um viewers per episode
, with maybe another 500 000catching up on streaming.
That I'm talking purely in theuk terms, because disney Plus
does not release its globalstreaming figures, unfortunately
.
It would be interesting to findout.
So the so we've, we've got thoseissues and so, yeah, of course,
(43:24):
putting it, you know, bringingEurovision in might bring a new
audience to Doctor who, but I dofeel that in many ways it's
it's the.
The strong LGBTQ plus themethematic that now runs through
this iteration of Doctor whomeans that it's a bit of a
no-brainer for them to bring inDoctor who, bring in Eurovision
(43:45):
to Doctor who.
Yeah, because both are seen asBritish television institutions
or institutions that the BBChave traditionally.
In the case of Eurovision, youknow, bbc were one of the
pioneer countries in setting upEurovision.
I know the British oftendisparage the contest but in
fact you know it is a Britishtelevision institution, just as
(44:08):
much as Doctor who is and hasbeen.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, in Sweden, eurovision is very much loved.
It's a big sort of familycelebration.
Everyone sits in front of thetelevision.
However, my final question herethen where do you think
Interstellar Songkot sits in thebroader tradition of musical
and high concept episode inDoctor who?
Do you think it kind of fits in, or is it slightly odd?
(44:34):
How did you think the episodeis?
Well, it fits in.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Actually one of my fears going into the
Interstellar Song Contest was Ihope they don't all sing and
dance again, because I felt thathad been done in the Devil's
Core.
It was an interesting episode.
Season one, episode two, itwould be repeating themselves to
have another song and dancespectacular, but actually the.
Instead, music is used um, youknow, um within the story and
(45:02):
what's called diegetically uh,so that in that sense it's um,
it's motivated by the plot andthe setting of the song contest.
So, um, in that sense it wasn'ttoo jarring.
It was within the tradition ofDoctor who of visiting alien
worlds that have somerelationship to our own current
(45:24):
present, in some ways perhapssimilar to an episode called Bad
Wolf from an originalChristopher Eccleston run of the
rebooted Doctor who, which Ithink was episode 12 of the
first season, where the Doctorlands with his then companion
(45:44):
Rose in some kind of futuristicreality TV show that seems to be
quite oddly modelled on.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Big.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Brother, the worldwide current reality
franchise.
So again it fits in with thattradition of Doctor who riffing
off current television andextrapolating it way into the
future.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Well, I thought it would have been more alien dance
.
I sort of missed kind of mostalien figures been dancing.
But hey-ho, Is there anythingelse you wanted to add to our
viewer before we leave today?
Speaker 1 (46:21):
No, I think we've had a good old chat about this and
covered the main points.
All I would say really is thatthis is all by way of prelude to
the two final episodes of thisseason of Doctor who Wishworld
and Reality War and I'm surewe'll be back soon to review
both of those episodes and giveour final thoughts on this very
(46:45):
interesting second season of theShutey Gatwa era.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Well, with that, thank you very much for
following us here and in thisepisode and, as always, please
subscribe or follow our channelsand also, if you do have any
questions or anything you wouldsay, please text us and
otherwise we see you next weekand thank you.
Spotlights fade, the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes,charlotte and John with the
final say, breaking down thescreens in their own way.
(00:35):
This is the final cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Wings of hope are pullingthrough.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome to another episode of Final Cut, and I'm
also I'm joined here with myhost, co-host, professor John
Cook, from Glasgow CaledonianUniversity, and today we're
going to talk about episode fiveand six of Doctor who, and it's
called the Story and the Engineand the Interstellar Song
(01:10):
Contest.
So to start with, so how didyou find out?
How did you like the episodes?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, hello there everybody and welcome to another
exciting episode of our Doctorwho Season 2 review.
So yeah, these two episodes,it's quite useful to speak to
them, speak about them togetherthe Story and the Engine,
episode 5, and the InterstellarSong Contest, episode 6.
And the reason I think thatthey're linked is really through
(01:46):
star power, the star, shutiGatwa, of the star of doctor who
, because they both episodes inmany ways reflect and are sort
of modeled in around his ownimage and the things that he's
interested in.
So the story in the engine isset in africa and shuti gatwa
has um, although he has hybridlineage, he he was brought up in
Scotland but he is of Rwandanheritage.
(02:07):
And then the Interstellar SongContest and maybe we can touch
on this in more depth as thepodcast goes on I think is
really an allegory for Palestineand Shudy Gatwa has strong
feelings about the situation,about the plight of the
Palestinians.
(02:28):
So both episodes reallyinteresting, fascinating, and
let's get into a bit more depthon them.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So for our viewer from abroad here, we just need
to explain that the EurovisionSong Contest is a contest where
you compete in music and youhave songs from about 12 to 14
countries all competing to bethe sort of top song.
Each country is represented withone song and they're mostly
(03:01):
European countries, but morerecently you also had Australia
and Israel and some othercountries join, and in the past
you always used to sing in yourown language, but now a lot of
the songs seem to be in Englishand they have various finals and
then it becomes a semifinal andthen the top final is normally
(03:24):
in the host country of thewinner from last year, and there
, and then on the night, the bignight when everyone is tuning
in from all, all over Europe andsometimes all over the world,
the winner is sort of crownedground.
But yes and but.
However, we start with a storyin Indian, who's indeed set in
(03:49):
Africa, and it's about a barbershop where the barber has gone a
bit wild and kidnapped hisclients, so to speak, or his
people coming in for haircuts,and my first question is then so
it's a lot about story, and ofcourse I can imagine sort of
(04:10):
African storytelling andstorytelling as a whole.
So how did you think thisconcept of storytelling?
How effective was it to use theplot device and the thematic
element?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, the strength of the episode, I think, was the
emphasis on storytelling and areally interesting setting for
this episode.
So it's set in a barber's shopin Africa I think it's actually
in Lagos and the idea is that itplays into a key aspect of
(04:45):
black male culture, which isgoing to the barber where men
can gather together and tellstories.
Black writer with links toNigeria, who in 2017 had a hit
(05:06):
play in England called theBarbershop Chronicles, and
essentially what has been doneis the setting of that play in a
barbershop, where a bunch ofblack males gather and swap
stories and anecdotes istransplanted into Doctor who, so
that suddenly we get a sciencefiction element to it.
(05:29):
And, in actual fact, thesetting in Lagos has the same
cast that appeared, I think,with one exception that appeared
in the stage version, theBarbershop Chronicles.
So it's a very interestinghybrid episode this one
exception that appeared in thestage version, the Barbershop
(05:49):
Chronicles.
So it's a very interestinghybrid episode, this, where it's
sort of melding a theatre playsetting with, you know, a
typical Doctor who sciencefiction spin in it.
So I think the strengths of theepisode are the emphasis on
storytelling and a veryinteresting setting for a Doctor
who story, one that's neverbeen explored before.
Another great strength is thevirtually all-black cast.
(06:12):
I think, with the exception ofa flashback scene, all the
actors who appear in the episodeare of colour, and so I think
that's definitely a first forDoctor who.
I mean quite shocking in a way,that it's only since 2018 that
we've started to see blackwriters write for Doctor who or
be invited to write for Doctorwho.
(06:33):
In fact, inua Ellams is thefirst black male to have
contributed a Doctor who script.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The previous three have been black females, so, in
that sense, story in the engine,a very groundbreaking episode
for doctor who I must say I wasreally impressed by the set of
whether, how they I mean youalmost feel as if you're
transported into nigeria, to amarket there, to a bustling
market.
It was not after seeing umdoctor who's unleash where you
(07:03):
could understand that this wasall set was actually you almost
thought that the production teamhad gone on a trip to Africa.
So what do you think of thesetting?
How significant is the settingthat the narrative logs Nigeria?
Is it that they want to?
Is it that they wish to portrayAfrican culture, do you think?
(07:24):
Or is it to wanting to enhanceAfrican culture, do you think?
Or is it wanting to enhance itto a bigger audience?
Or why do you think they chooseNigerian-African?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Well, you know, again I come back to star power.
I think, although Russell TDavis is the showrunner of
Doctor who, the show, you know,doctor, who has always modeled
itself around the star, uh, thestar actor playing the doctor,
uh to um, you know, essentiallyhave stories that reflect um,
(07:59):
his particular kind of interestsand in a way, so that that will
make something interesting andand more powerful for the screen
.
I mean a trivial example, um,far more trivial than the issues
we're discussing today, is thefifth doctor.
Peter davidson was a bigcricket fan, uh, so what do you
know?
Suddenly, in doctor who, backin the early 80s, the Doctor
(08:22):
suddenly has his cricket garband in several episodes or
different stories he's suddenlyrevealed to have a great love of
English cricket.
So it's that idea of modellingaround the star and reflecting
the image of the star.
Now, in this case, far moreprofoundly, you have the first
Doctor, its first black doctor,and one key line, which I think
(08:49):
is done rather effectively atthe start of the episode to
explain suddenly that the doctorappears in Nigeria, is the idea
that he talks to his companionBelinda, saying that he
acknowledges that he's the firstdoctor to inhabit a black body
(09:09):
following all theseregenerations and therefore
feels more comfortable withinblack culture, because there are
still places in the world manyplaces that are racist and where
he feels slightly different.
So that immediately sets up astory context for why the Doctor
would feel so comfortablewithin black African culture.
So the setting works well.
(09:32):
The episode, I think, has metwith quite high praise from a
range of different critics and Ifelt that there was a lot of
strong aspects to the episode.
However, at the same time, Idid have reservations, things
that I thought were a little bitnot really fitting within the
(09:54):
Doctor who context, and I'mhappy to go into these if you
want a bit more, charlotte.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Sure.
I must say, though, before,that the gentleman played the
barber.
I thought he was kind offantastic and what came out of.
My next question is how do youthink the doc's interaction with
the barber and Abene in thisrevealed different facets of his
character, especially regardingpast action and the
(10:20):
consequences?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And also, please do tell us about things you felt
maybe also a bit out of placeyeah, um, so the, the setting of
the barber shop, a fascinatingnew angle for us to explore in
doctor who and the power ofstorytelling.
But at the same time, to meanyway, um, uh, it felt a little
(10:42):
bit too much like a theatreplay Once you were in that
barbarous setting.
There was a long scenes of justyou know, a bunch of characters
trapped in that setting.
So in that sense it wasn't verytelevisual, it was very
dialogue led.
Another key weakness that Ifelt, perhaps arising out of the
(11:05):
writer's background in theatre,was there's a classic line or
lore in screenwriting show nottell.
So you know, rather thandescribe things and give the
audience verbal cues, youactually show it.
And give the audience verbalcues, you actually show it.
(11:30):
But in this episode there was anawful lot of what Austin Powers
used to call basil exposition,a lot of expository dialogue
telling us about things that wecouldn't possibly know until
people essentially explainedthis plot to us.
And I have to say, you know,watching it and I watched it
with my 14-year-old son, who'san avid Doctor who fan, as you
know, charlotte and he, like me,couldn't really understand it
(11:55):
the first time.
It needed a second watch to beable to actually understand it
and appreciate it.
So that is maybe a weaknesswith this particular episode.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that and I also sometimes I
agree that I thought also thestory was a bit too predictable.
However, um, I just wonder, Ithink I wonder if the reason why
they had to explain so much wasbecause, actually, that it was
quite loosely based on this play, so that if you had seen the
(12:26):
play you might have understoodbetter what the reference was,
so that they sort of had to fillin the backstory for the
audience.
I don't know if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, no, I think.
From what I understand, anywayfrom what I've read of the
barbershop chronicles, the playis actually set in the uk and
explores sort of black maleculture in the uk.
So I think it's only really thesetting and many of the cast
who appeared in that stageversion who've been recruited to
play in doctor who.
But, um, no, the story itselfis about mythology and it's
(12:58):
about the power of storytelling.
So in that sense it's adifferent concept and premise to
the barbershop chronicles,albeit linked by this idea of
black men telling stories toeach other.
But it's about, you know, it'sthe story in the engine.
It's a science fiction plotabout the gods of storytelling
(13:20):
needing to be fed.
But that touches on another keyweakness that I thought
personally, that maybe hasn'tbeen brought out by other
critics and commentators thatI've heard, which is this notion
that at one point in theepisode the doctor says you know
you cannot sever the linksbetween humans and gods.
(13:40):
You know humans need their gods.
And I thought to myself this isvery strange for doctor who in
terms of the the 60 year historyof the show, because the doctor
has always been a man and veryoccasionally a woman of science.
Uh, where, if, if the doctor inthe past had encountered
(14:01):
supernatural aspects, it wouldbe ultimately explained as some
evil villain trying to put fearinto the hearts of their victims
.
But in fact, in the end,science and rationality figure
it out.
Here we had a Doctor very muchin tune with African culture but
(14:22):
at the same time in a sensesaying that humans need their
gods and that the god you knowthey need to have a relationship
with the supernatural andsuperstition, and that seemed a
little bit off to me in terms ofthe 60-year history of Doctor
who.
So this touches on aspectswhich I think is true of both
(14:44):
the episodes that we'rereviewing today, of aspects of
the show that are kind ofslightly jarring in terms of the
history of Doctor who Verystrong episodes and very
interesting stories andrevelations and plots.
But having that, whether itfits into the Doctor who mythos,
(15:04):
perhaps the Russell T Davisshould he get what you know, is
taking us too far away from theway that the Doctor has
traditionally been written.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
But could it not be?
I don't know, it may be my kindof guessing, but could it not
be?
I don't know, maybe my kind ofguessing, but could it be that
Disney could have an influencethere, because Disney in the
story they have a lot of godsand it's a lot about mythology.
I just wondered if they weretrying to sort of link it up
with Disney kind of mythology.
Maybe just a guess.
(15:35):
Anyway, I wanted to go on andmove on to talk about the
production design, because thatwas another thing I thought was
great.
So we know that the barbershophere is both sort of familiar
but also a spaceship.
So how do you think theproduction design contributed to
this duality and what do youthink challenges it to?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well, the production design is great.
I mean on both.
You've talked about disney, onboth, um, this episode, an
interstellar song contest, um,fantastic production design.
When we move outside of thebarber shop, uh, and see
actually that the barber shop isbeing carried on the back of a
giant sort of scary robot spider, um, no expense has been spared
(16:19):
in that respect, and you know.
To come back to your pointabout Disney, that's a very
interesting point.
You know about Disney andmythology and so on.
It is certainly the case thatRussell T Davis has announced
that the Doctor who is movingmore into the fantasy realm in
these two seasons, theShurigatwa era, than straight
(16:40):
science fiction.
There are some straight sciencefiction stories, but a lot of
it is more fantastical.
But it's explained by the ideathat, as happened in an episode
in the David Tennant specialscalled Wild Blue Yonder, that
the Doctor has inadvertently letgods into our universe.
But I don't have an objectionto that, but it's the idea that
(17:00):
the doctor himself would somehowsay that that we need our gods,
and and to me that that seemeda little bit off, uh.
But yeah, absolutely agree, theproduction design, uh, is first
rate okay.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So how do you okay?
So, if that often, how do youthis?
How do you think this episodefit with the broader content of
dr who's exploration of identityand mythology?
Because I feel that there hasbeen quite a lot of talks about
gods recently, but in terms ofum remember we had god of lights
and god of that's, yeah, oh,yes, there's, the gods are
(17:36):
invading the universe and Ithink we're about to.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
that's going to reach a crescendo in episodes seven
and eight, which is the two-partseason finale for season two of
this reboot-y Doctor who.
The two episodes are Wishworld,which is coming up on May, the
24th in terms of originalrelease date, followed by the
(18:01):
final episode, the finale.
So the reality war, it's called.
So yeah, it's happening and thegods are around, and so the
theme of the gods is consistent.
It was just the way in whichthe Doctor dealt with it.
But moving on, there's also inthis episode the introduction of
(18:24):
the fugitive doctor, uh, areturn of of an old character,
again fitting very much withinthe black cast theme, because
the fugitive doctor as revealedin the chris chibnall era is a
sort of predecessor to what weoriginally thought was the first
doctor played by will WilliamHartnell in the 1960s.
But again, there seemed a giantplot hole there for me, because
(18:44):
the Doctor seemed to remembermeeting a character as the
Fugitive Doctor, but the idea,or the original premise anyway,
was that the Fugitive Doctor hadbeen blocked out of the
Doctor's memory.
So again, there was a giantplot hole there.
So it suggests a slightdisregard for the canon of the
show at the moment.
This also continues into theInterstellar Song Contest, which
(19:08):
we can perhaps move on to.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So just before we move on, there's a final
question.
So what has been the criticaland audience response to this
episode and what does itindicate about the direction of
the series?
So I felt that when what I cameacross was that maybe not super
positive response, but how didyou use, what did you read and
what did you find out?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
but the audience reaction well, I think, in terms
of pure ratings, there was aslight bounce, um from I about
1.5 million in UK viewers.
This is viewers in the UK onovernight ratings.
So this is not countingstreaming ratings yet, which is
(19:52):
yet to be totaled up andreleased publicly anyway, but
I'm talking about overnightratings.
So so doctor who, as we'vetouched on before is, is
troughing with with very lowovernight television ratings,
this show had a slight bounce ofabout sort of 90 000 viewers, I
think, uh, to about 1.59million.
(20:13):
However, the interstellar SongContest gained another million
viewers, suggesting that well,we can perhaps come on to why in
a minute.
So that's been the raw ratingsdata.
But in terms of critical andaudience reaction, as I said
(20:34):
earlier, the story in the enginehas been very favorably
received.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Well, okay, let's move on then to Interstellar
Song Contest, and, as a Swede, Iwas really excited to remember.
Well, I didn't remember, butthe reminiscence of Abba in the
1974 winning this EurovisionSong Contest with Waterloo.
However, yes, I thought it was,I was really looking forward to
this episode and it didn'tdisappoint.
(21:01):
I thought it was great.
However, what was your firstreaction to the Interstellar
Song Contest?
Did it capture the spirit ofDoctor who and Eurovision?
Did you think?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, it was certainly a lot of fun and we
need to explain to perhaps ourlisteners and viewers who are
outside the UK.
Charlotte, at the verybeginning you set up a very good
introduction of what theeurovision song contest is, but,
um, the key fact with thisepisode of doctor who is that it
(21:31):
was aired in the uk on on bbc,uh, just before the eurovision
song contest went out live at 8pm.
Uh, saturday night, saturdaythe 17th of May.
So Doctor who was shown 50minutes earlier, starting at 10
past seven, and so the episodehad been conceived as being an
(21:54):
episode that would precede theEurovision Song Contest and, in
that sense, provide a sort ofEurovision night for BBC
television.
Now, there was a little bit ofa worry on the production team's
(22:21):
part because, prior to, doctorwho would have to be junked from
the the schedules and um movedto another um BBC channel.
Um, fortunately for the team,that did not happen because the
FA Cup final finished on cue atthe right time, which allowed
this episode to air, um, exactlyas planned, 50 minutes before
(22:42):
the Eurovision Song Contest.
So it's a hammock between twolive events and, in terms of our
ratings discussion, thatexplains why it got a bounce of
a million viewers.
So it's called.
In the TV industry it's calledhammocking, where you have two
successful programs, in thiscase two live events, and you
(23:03):
put a program in the middle andthat program will both gain from
those who had tuned into the FACup final and it also gains
from those who are beginning toswitch on to get ready for
Eurovision.
So I think that, rather thannecessarily the intrinsic
quality of the episode accountsfor the ratings bounds of a
million viewers.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
But coming back to my second question, do you think
that the episode in itself whichI thought was great really
entertaining, but do you thinkit captures the spirit of both,
the spirit of Doctor who andEurovision?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Certainly captures the spirit of Eurovision,
although with quite a darkpolitical story underlying it
and again coming back, I think,to Shuti Gatwa's support of the
Palestinian cause.
In terms of your question aboutDoctor who fitting in with the
canon, it was very much withthis episode.
(23:59):
Yes and no.
It seemed what they were doingwas introducing old characters
from the past of the show thevillain, the Rani, which is
revealed at the very end of theepisode, so spoilers, but that
is an old Doctor who villainthat is returning to be the big
(24:19):
bad, if you like, of thisparticular season.
And also, for me, mostpoignantly and I'm just amazed
they've never done this soonerthey've brought back the
Doctor's granddaughter from theoriginal William Hartnell era,
who is making, at the very least, a cameo in this particular
episode.
(24:39):
The actress herself is now 80years old, so we've got this
rather ironic um juxtapositionof an elderly lady playing the
granddaughter of um, a youngblack actor.
So that's that's kind ofinteresting, uh.
So, yeah, it's very much withinthe the canon.
But to me, though, there wasquite a lot of lurches of tone
(25:01):
in this episode, including inthe Doctor's character, which I
felt was a little bit.
The episode seemed a little bitall over the place in that
respect.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
So the episode playfully riffs on Eurovision.
How do you, what do you thinkthis Doctor who episode says
about the importance of music,and particularly in the
spectacle, in popular culture,this idea that the role of you
know, artists and music has inpopular culture, this idea that
the role of you know, artistsand music has in popular culture
.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yes, well, I think the episode is a celebration of
Eurovision in that sense,particularly its resonance in,
certainly, the last couple ofdecades.
It's embraced, you know'sembrace, you know gay culture
has embraced it and um, it'scertainly true that um, with, uh
(25:51):
, you know, a gay actor in inthe main role of doctor, who in
a gay showrunner that there is,you know, the lgbtq plus um
feeling of this, you know,iteration of doctor who has
never been stronger.
So, for example, you had inthis current episode a gay
couple that suddenly got ropedinto the Doctor's adventures and
(26:13):
what have you.
So the Eurovision, I think, wascelebrated in that sense.
But coming back to the darknessof it, we also had, underlying
it, russell T Davies' pitch tothe writer of this particular
episode, a person called JunoDawson, was this, and it kind of
sums up the episode.
(26:34):
He said what I want is for youto write an episode in which
Eurovision meets Die Hard, andso what we have is a terrorist
figure taking over the controlgallery of this supposed contest
that has now spread beyondEurovision to the whole galaxy
as the Interstellar Song Contestand it's taken over.
(26:58):
But it's in that element of theterrorist that we begin to get
quite political, and it is verymuch you know.
The idea that we begin to getquite political, and it is very
much you know it's the idea thatthere has been a race that's
been whose culture and land hasbeen devastated by a corporate
(27:18):
invading force is the premise ofthe show and that they are
denied a voice and not allowedto participate really in most
parts of not only the songcontest but the wider culture of
this particular futuristic era.
And it's absolutely no stretchto see that as an allegory for
Israel taking part and has takenpart in the Eurovision Song
(27:41):
Contest of the 1970s, but thatin recent decades there's been a
lot of criticism about the factthat why is Israel in the
Eurovision Song Contest?
You know, shouldn't we, youknow, shouldn't there be
solidarity with the Palestinianpeople, etc?
And so you have the corporationthat's trying to, in the
episode, keep the lid on all ofthis in a way directly echoing
(28:06):
the way in which the organisersof Eurovision Song Contest in
recent years have tried tomanage the situation in such a
way that it doesn't become akind of political event, even
though by default it effectivelyis.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Well, I sort of agree with the interpretation, but
when I saw it I actually agreewith the interpretation.
But when I saw it I alsothought about other sort of
interpretations that are to dowith other terrorist attacks.
I mean, if you think about theattack on Ariana Grande and some
attacks that have been inconcert halls in Germany,
(28:44):
similar where there has beenkind of an event and then but
yes, it has suddenly beengrowing much more darker and
perhaps more depressing aspect.
But moving on then.
But I also want to touch on theLATP aspect, of course not
(29:07):
related to this, but one thing Idid like with this episode was
that the gay couple wasn'tbrought in as a gay couple.
Instead, they were kind of justbrought in as a couple and then
you realize they were gayafterwards.
Yes, yes, they were less of atoken.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yes, no, that's true that it was more subtext.
Um, you know, it just happenedto be two men's, sort of right,
I think the subtext was.
You know one point, I think oneof them says oh, I would follow
you anywhere, doctor.
Uh, so you're right, it's a gaysubtext.
Um, uh, no, you know, thechildren's audience might not
necessarily have picked up onthat aspect about the two men.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
How do you think the format of a music contest shaped
the narrative of the structurecompared to a more traditional
that, using this as a?
I mean, I thought it was quitefor me.
I thought it was quiteinteresting making that as a
device of a music contest, butobviously it's quite different
to what normally shows wouldobserve.
How did you think?
Do you think that was aneffective part of it?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yes, well, music is increasingly coming into the,
the new Russell T Daviesiteration of Doctor who with
Shidi Gatwa.
So we had, for example, bonAfaeri singing and dancing in
the season one, episode two.
I think it was the devil'schord in which people burst into
song.
We've also had song featured inthe introduction of Shuti Ghat
(30:34):
was the doctor, which was theChristmas special.
The church on Ruby Road we hadin the I think it was in the
hall of the goblins there was asinger and interestingly yeah,
so the person that I think itwas in the Hall of the Goblins
there was a singer and,interestingly, oh, yes, yeah
that was yeah.
So the person that sung thatactually comes back in this
episode heavily disguised as analien and sings.
So bringing music into Doctorwho is something I think that
(30:56):
has been an aspiration ofRussell T Davis.
But in this case, you know,music is being used as the way
in which to resolve problems.
That's the theme of it, I think.
So the terrorist is defeatedbecause he tries to use violence
, whereas there is one characterwho is a singer in the contest
(31:19):
who, as the episode goes on,reveals herself to be actually
one of these aliens, helion.
She had hidden her identity,but through the power of song
she's able to move the entireaudience and to recognize the
plight of the helion people.
Um, at the same time, you knowyou could have a counter reading
and say well, does that meanthat that, um, it's all?
(31:42):
Just um, just, the onlyplatform she has for political
protest is through music and shecannot do anything else.
So you could read that as beingslightly odd, dodgy politics.
You know that ultimately, theonly way that people respond is
through song, but it doesn'tactually change anything.
(32:03):
But certainly within theepisode I think it's set up that
violence is wrong.
However justified.
Your cause, your politicalcause, violence in this case.
I think the terrorist wants tokill three trillion people and
instead, what you must do isparticipate in the conventional
(32:23):
structures in order to try andbring about change through
culture and dialogue.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
So maybe that at the Eurovision the music brings them
together.
I actually thought that whenshe sang the Helenine song
although not, I know, we don'tunderstand a word of what you're
saying I thought it was pretty,very moving.
It was very kind of strong,because it must be quite
difficult to sing a song, youknow, in a kind of completely
(32:51):
alien language.
But yes, that was a moving.
So maybe.
But coming back to this aboutsongs and music, so how did you
think that the anthems usessound ways to feed on emotion
and life force?
How does that fit into theclassic doctor who villain
(33:11):
archetype?
But also this for the fact thatthey're using sound ways, given
coming back to the previousprevious two episodes where they
were the lux, where they usedlight, I mean it's like uh, yes,
it's going to connect theepisodes a bit, I think.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yes, that's an interesting point.
You know the elemental aspects.
You know we're getting quitebasic territory here.
You know light and now sound.
Sound ultimately being used,trying to be used for evil
purposes, and that's defeated bythe Doctor, but alternatively,
sound being used positivelythrough the singing of the song
(33:47):
in the contest.
It did strike me.
I mean it's entirely likely.
Although I don't know the exacttimelines, it's entirely likely
that this episode was conceivedand written after Ukraine in
2022, just after the invasion oftheir country won the
Eurovision Song Contest of thatyear.
(34:08):
So I wouldn't be surprised ifthere's a little bit of a
Ukrainian subtext going in thereas well, about a land being
invaded and being destroyed andthe Song Contest ultimately
being used as a platform to drawattention to that.
So, yeah, so it's notnecessarily all Palestinian
(34:29):
issues, but I think it isimportant to realise that the
star of this show now, shuriGatwa, is a strong Palestinian
supporter and, revealingly, whenIsrael qualified through the
semifinals to appear in thefinal of the Eurovision Song
Contest last Saturday, shudy Gatwas originally down to announce
(34:49):
the results of the UK jury,which is a great tradition where
, you know, stars from differentcountries appear to represent
their country, and Shudy wasdown to do that and as soon as
Israel qualified he pulled out.
He hasn't given his reasons, butit's highly speculated it's
because he didn't want to be inthe awkward position that if,
say, israel had won theeurovision song contest, they
(35:10):
didn't, they came second.
Um.
So it's very important torealize that um, there's a
strong palestinian subtext tothis, um, this episode, and
again I come back to my point atthe start that in both of these
episodes we've reviewed the,the story in the engine and the
interstellar song contest.
There are strong culturalpolitical themes that very much
(35:33):
reflect and mirror the currentstar of the show and what he's
interested in.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Sure, I guess we have to say that this is speculation
, but I also think that, yeah, Iagree, as I said, it could be
that, but it could also be anoppressed, like an oppressed,
any sort of oppressed nation asa metaphor of a wider theme of
an oppressed nation, like.
I mean, if you take, bring forexample, sweden with the, uh,
(36:10):
native population, by the, theboar, um, by the other part of
the population, do you see whatI mean?
And uh, and in, but moving back, coming back then to the
episode, if we look at just thequality of episode itself, so
how did you find episodes,visual and musical creativity,
(36:31):
in terms of costume performance,and I think I was really
impressed, I mean, when I sawthis, um, dr who, um, sorry, the
, the, the companion show, um,when they talked about the fact
that they had to create all themusic and they all created all
the, the costumes, and I mustsay I was it was really
(36:54):
impressive To me.
It very much looked, eventhough it was alien, it looked
very much like, you know,something that could have passed
for Eurovision.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Absolutely, and you know the special effects.
This is where you know Disneyhas really upped the ante in
terms of the budget.
I mean the, the sequence whereum the doctor, along with most
of the audience of the of theinterstellar song contest, finds
himself blown out into spacewhere they have to float around
and I think it's in this in thestory, it's supposed to be about
(37:28):
150 000 people you, youactually do see, you know a
massive body, you know thespecial effects is almost well,
pretty much is movie quality nowyeah.
So that is, you know, noquestion, it was a very strong
episode visually and in thatsense it was more of a visual
(37:50):
episode than the bulk of thestory and the engine.
So, yeah, no, the show is.
You know, there's some aspectswhere I have reservations about
both episodes, but there's noquestion that this run of Shitty
Gatway episodes is probably,episode per episode, stronger
than season one and certainly arange of very interesting
(38:14):
stories and characters that nowset us up nicely for the
two-part finale.
The Wishworld is coming up,followed by the finale on May
the 31st, when it's firstreleased, called the Reality War
, and in this, as I've saidearlier, we have the return of
the Raniani, a villain thathasn't been seen in doctor, who,
(38:35):
I think since 1989, um, a sortof female version of the master,
a sort of villainous time lordtime lady um, and, as I say you
know, phenomenally, the returnof susan, the original companion
to the, the original doctor, um, and, as I say, I can't believe
.
You know, I felt sorry for thelady that she'd been kept out of
(38:57):
doctors for so long, I think,uh and it wasn't the party,
until the party, that theyrealized they could bring her in
.
That's right apparently russellt.
She met russell t davis at aparty um, and I just thought you
know they must bring her back,because I mean time is marching
on and I mean that story hasbeen unresolved since 1965, I
(39:18):
think whatever happened to Susanthe actress herself has
appeared in a cameos, in acouple of sort of multi-doctor
episodes, shall we say, but it'snever been satisfactorily
explained what happened to her.
So I presume that in the twoepisodes coming up we're finally
(39:38):
going to learn what happened tothe Doctor's granddaughter.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
But bringing back the companions.
How did you think this settingallowed the Doctor's personality
and her relationship with hiscompanions?
How did it work with Belinda inthis episode and how did you
think Belinda performed, and interms of yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Belinda is in Interstellar Song Contest.
Belinda plays a very importantpart because she reminds the
Doctor of the need forcompassion.
Now this touches on one of theneed for compassion.
Now this touches on one of theaspects where I felt there was a
lot of lurching of thecharacter and indeed the tone of
this episode.
So the Doctor suddenly we'reled to believe because he's been
(40:24):
ejected into space and almostdies through being frozen,
before, in a very bizarre way,rescuing himself it would take
too long to describe how hemanages to get back into the
contest.
But after that he suddenlybecomes villainous himself.
He says I've had a little bitof ice in my heart, he tells the
(40:45):
terrorist, and at one pointabout the end of the episode he
starts to torture the terrorist.
Now we've seen the dark side ofthe Doctor before, but I don't
think we've ever seen the Doctorlurch into genuine evil.
And certainly there areelements of that torture
sequence that are quite strong.
(41:06):
I believe the writer of theepisode asked Russell T Davis,
you know, can I go darker?
And Russell T Davis said sure,can I go darker?
And Russell T Davis said sure,you know, make it go even darker
, but there is a danger that inso doing you kind of weaken the
character of the doctor and hispresence as a force for good in
(41:27):
the universe, and in thisepisode it's only Belinda's
intervention that reminds thatin fact he needs to show
compassion.
So a lot of latching around,quite a light episode, the
Interstellar Song Contest on onelevel with Eurovision, and
quite fluffy and some fun.
Then you've got this darkpolitical subplot and then
(41:48):
you've got this dark turn in theDoctor as well.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So it was definitely an episode of contrasts yeah, I
must say I was a bit shockedabout that, and particularly,
you know, the doctor is a rolemodel for children and yeah,
yeah, so that was funny, andalso the fact that they wondered
about this, that with the eyes,and does it suddenly go darker?
Um, yeah, however, can I justask you so do you think this
(42:16):
episode, one thing that kind of,was in our back of the mind?
Do you think it was made for dr, for dr who fans or fans of
eurovision or both, and I sortof wondered, do you think it was
a chance here, like to kind oftease in eurovision Labo, to
look at Doctor who?
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, in a way.
I mean Doctor who's underRussell T Davis has always
ridden these two differentponies.
In one sense, you're obviouslymaking it for the established
audience, but you want thataudience to grow and of course
one of the great concerns, Iguess, of the Shudigatwa run is
that that audience has not beengrowing.
It's not even been level.
It's effectively declined to asort of you know um, a sort of
(43:00):
low point of about 1.5 millionovernight um viewers per episode
, with maybe another 500 000catching up on streaming.
That I'm talking purely in theuk terms, because disney Plus
does not release its globalstreaming figures, unfortunately
.
It would be interesting to findout.
So the so we've, we've got thoseissues and so, yeah, of course,
(43:24):
putting it, you know, bringingEurovision in might bring a new
audience to Doctor who, but I dofeel that in many ways it's
it's the.
The strong LGBTQ plus themethematic that now runs through
this iteration of Doctor whomeans that it's a bit of a
no-brainer for them to bring inDoctor who, bring in Eurovision
(43:45):
to Doctor who.
Yeah, because both are seen asBritish television institutions
or institutions that the BBChave traditionally.
In the case of Eurovision, youknow, bbc were one of the
pioneer countries in setting upEurovision.
I know the British oftendisparage the contest but in
fact you know it is a Britishtelevision institution, just as
(44:08):
much as Doctor who is and hasbeen.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, in Sweden, eurovision is very much loved.
It's a big sort of familycelebration.
Everyone sits in front of thetelevision.
However, my final question herethen where do you think
Interstellar Songkot sits in thebroader tradition of musical
and high concept episode inDoctor who?
Do you think it kind of fits in, or is it slightly odd?
(44:34):
How did you think the episodeis?
Well, it fits in.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Actually one of my fears going into the
Interstellar Song Contest was Ihope they don't all sing and
dance again, because I felt thathad been done in the Devil's
Core.
It was an interesting episode.
Season one, episode two, itwould be repeating themselves to
have another song and dancespectacular, but actually the.
Instead, music is used um, youknow, um within the story and
(45:02):
what's called diegetically uh,so that in that sense it's um,
it's motivated by the plot andthe setting of the song contest.
So, um, in that sense it wasn'ttoo jarring.
It was within the tradition ofDoctor who of visiting alien
worlds that have somerelationship to our own current
(45:24):
present, in some ways perhapssimilar to an episode called Bad
Wolf from an originalChristopher Eccleston run of the
rebooted Doctor who, which Ithink was episode 12 of the
first season, where the Doctorlands with his then companion
(45:44):
Rose in some kind of futuristicreality TV show that seems to be
quite oddly modelled on.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Big.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Brother, the worldwide current reality
franchise.
So again it fits in with thattradition of Doctor who riffing
off current television andextrapolating it way into the
future.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Well, I thought it would have been more alien dance
.
I sort of missed kind of mostalien figures been dancing.
But hey-ho, Is there anythingelse you wanted to add to our
viewer before we leave today?
Speaker 1 (46:21):
No, I think we've had a good old chat about this and
covered the main points.
All I would say really is thatthis is all by way of prelude to
the two final episodes of thisseason of Doctor who Wishworld
and Reality War and I'm surewe'll be back soon to review
both of those episodes and giveour final thoughts on this very
(46:45):
interesting second season of theShutey Gatwa era.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Well, with that, thank you very much for
following us here and in thisepisode and, as always, please
subscribe or follow our channelsand also, if you do have any
questions or anything you wouldsay, please text us and
otherwise we see you next weekand thank you.
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