Neil Laird steps away from the camera and into the world of creative fiction in this fascinating conversation about his career transition. After producing and directing over a thousand hours of documentary programming for major networks like Discovery, History Channel, and National Geographic, Laird found himself increasingly frustrated by the constraints of factual storytelling.
"I got tired of sticking to the facts. I got tired of footnotes," he explains. "I'd think 'I wish Ramesses could say that, but Discovery Channel won't let me put words in Ramesses' mouth.'" This creative frustration, combined with turning 50 and the death of his hero David Bowie in 2016, pushed Laird to finally write the novel he'd been contemplating for years.
The result is a delightful time-travel fiction series where a documentary crew gets transported to ancient Egypt, Pompeii, and Troy. Online reviewers have described the books as "Indiana Jones meets Doctor Who," blending Laird's encyclopedic knowledge of ancient history with entertaining adventure storytelling. What makes his approach unique is his commitment to immersive research – renting villas near archaeological sites and wandering through ancient ruins to fuel his creative process.
Most fascinating is Laird's perspective on ancient civilizations. "They're not nearly as primitive as we think," he observes, describing how his books highlight forgotten LGBTQ+ histories from the ancient world. "In many ways, it was much freer and more open regarding sexuality and same-sex unions than it is today." This nuanced understanding comes from decades of documentary work, including intimate access to Egyptian tombs that clearly show same-sex relationships were honored in elite ancient society.
Whether you're an aspiring creative, history enthusiast, or simply curious about the transforming media landscape, Laird offers invaluable insights about following your passion, creating your own opportunities, and navigating a rapidly changing industry. Subscribe to our podcast for more conversations with fascinating creators who are redefining storytelling across mediums and genres.
Want to connect with Neil or learn more about his books? Visit www.neillaird.com for updates, contact info, and more about his creative projects.
Don’t miss this inspiring conversation about curiosity, storytelling, and finding new paths in creative life!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Spotlights fade, the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes.
Charlotte and John with thefinal say.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Breaking down the screens in their own way.
This is the Final Cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Hi and welcome to another episode of Final Cut.
Today we're delighted tointroduce our first guest and
John, could you introduce ourfirst guest?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, thanks, charlotte.
So it's a great pleasure towelcome the first guest on our
new podcast series, and his nameis Neil Laird and he has done
and produced and directed, aswell as written, over a thousand
hours of nonfiction programmingfor channels such as Discovery,
the History Channel, nationalGeographic, as well as the BBC
(01:23):
and Channel 4.
National Geographic as well asthe BBC and Channel 4.
So, basically, if you've been aviewer of US cable TV
documentary channels over thelast 20, 25 years, you'll have
come across quite a few of hisworks, including Shark Week,
which he was executive produceron, which has quite a cult
following, as well as his ownpassion area, which is ancient
(01:46):
history and shows about theancient world and about ancient
Egypt.
(02:08):
Neil crossed over last year andbegan to write creative fiction
with a fascinating new series ofbooks called Jared Plummer
versus the Ancient World,beginning with a novel that was
released a year ago calledPrimetime Travellers, with a
follow-up published later lastyear called Primetime Pompeii,
and I believe a third is in theworks called Primetime Troy.
(02:28):
Now this revolves around thefictional adventures of a
fictional documentary crew ledby a relatively inexperienced TV
director called Jared Plummer,who mysteriously is given by an
(02:50):
old lady, an ancient portalwhich allows him to travel back
in time to ancient Egypt, tomake quote-unquote, the greatest
documentary ever made.
Now, online reviewers have beenextremely complimentary about
Neil's books, describing them assort of Indiana Jones meets
Doctor who.
Others have compared them tothe Outlander series and to the
(03:12):
Percy Jackson series in the waysin which they blend a
fascination with ancient history, mixing it up with elements of
fantasy and aspects of ourcontemporary world.
So, neil, it's a great pleasureto introduce you and to welcome
you to our Final Cut podcast.
And can I just begin with avery basic first question.
You spent so long working innon-fiction television.
(03:34):
What induced and inspired youto move over into creative
writing?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That's a very good question.
It certainly wasn't somethingthat I ever planned to say.
After a quarter century, I'mgoing to move over and be a
novelist, mostly becausenovelists don't make a bloody
dime, you know.
So it's.
It's hardly a second Don't.
Don't make it your first career.
Make it your second career whenyou have some money in the bank
.
It was passion and it camelargely out of doing television
(03:58):
for again 25 years.
I made my first film in 1996about the Great Sphinx, which
has always been my passion place, egypt, as you said.
And after a thousand hours oftelevision and over a hundred
series, I kind of got tired ofsticking to the facts.
I kind of got tired offootnotes.
I kind of got tired of you know.
(04:19):
Well, I wish Ramsey could saythat, but I can't put words in
Ramsey's mouth because DiscoveryChannel won't let me, you know,
or BBC won't let me.
So it's funny.
It was.
It was I decided to write myfirst book in 2016.
And by that point I'd alreadybeen thinking a bit about I want
to create fiction.
I want to take what I knowabout television, my love of the
(04:40):
ancient world, and combine them.
But of course, getting off theseat and doing it is much more
difficult than thinking about it.
Writing a book is not easy, butagain, 2016, two things
happened that really kind oflike pushed me forward.
One is I turned 50 and Irealized, oh bloody hell,
there's a lot more time behindme than ahead of me.
So stop thinking about it, neil.
And the other one is in Januaryof that year, my great creative
(05:04):
hero died, david Bowie.
And even though he was amusician and not a writer, I
have been a Bowie freak sincethe late 70s.
I bought every album that cameout and I knew everything he was
doing, forward and back.
And it was only after I readhis obituary which, again, I
knew so well that I was remindedof what made Bowie so brilliant
(05:25):
was he was fearless.
With every album, he recreatedhimself.
With every album, he took youto a new world.
He was not afraid to fail.
He was not afraid to trysomething and then move on if it
didn't work.
And I remember thinking therelike well, clearly I can't be
Bowie, but maybe Neil Laird hasone Bowie album in him, one, one
, one trick up his sleeve.
So let's find out and do it.
(05:46):
So, in a way, it was theinspiration of those two things
that said, okay, I've startedwriting.
And then I just dived intotaking my two things that I love
so well my day job and mypassion of ancient Egypt and
ancient Rome and ancient Greeceand I combined them into a very
satirical, fun time travel novelsomething I could never do for
television.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Interesting.
So what inspired this latestnovel?
Why did you want to write athird book in the series?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's all about.
The books are self-publishedand the way you gain an audience
in self-publishing is to havebooks on the shelf.
So then you go back and youhave two or three books you can
sell and you can get out there.
It's about building a name andso, unlike traditional
publishing, which takes yearsand years and years between
books because the agent has todo this, and that you can
(06:37):
publish and write anytime youwant.
So I have found that by havingtwo books out already and the
third one being promised andbeing sent up, that it builds
the anticipation, it builds theaudience.
I have a newsletter I send outand it's really a way for the
independent publishing market tokind of get a name for
themselves by simply becausepeople don't.
People don't want to wait twoyears for a book.
(06:58):
They like the book, they wantto read the next chapter
tomorrow.
I'm not that fast of a writer,but I could probably crank it
out in less than a year.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah Well, I'm always fascinated with, anytime I've
spoken to creative writers, howthey actually write.
Now, the interesting thing withyou, of course, is that you're
dealing with historical material, so it must involve a certain
amount of research.
A good few years ago, charlotteand I encountered Diana
Gabaldon, the author of theOutlander novels, who was
(07:27):
visiting Scotland, and she saidthat in fact, she just read a
whole load of books aboutScotland and never visited
Scotland, and yet wrote it allout from that.
But in your case, you'vevisited some of these places,
most of them, or all of them.
So why, how do you blendresearch and fiction?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is, for it's a lot of travel.
But again, starting with Egyptwas a known brain.
The first book is Egypt.
Second book is Pompeii andEgypt.
I know so well.
I've been there a dozen times,I've shot a dozen documentaries.
I've been there so many times.
I know the.
I just read books on Egyptologyfor fun.
You know so, I know so.
It was easy.
For me.
The research only came up when Ihad to figure out exact time
(08:10):
period or things like that.
And there are always littlestories about ancient Egypt that
would love to fictionalize.
The world's first court case,the world's first strike, the
world's first tomb robbers, allthese things were fascinating,
so I brought them into my bookand fictionalized them.
And then with the last twobooks, with Pompeii and with
Troy, which is being written now, I rented a villa near the
(08:31):
sites.
So for Pompeii I rented a villanear Sorrento and I would hop
the train every other day or soand I'd wander around Pompeii
which I'd been to but never as adocumentary filmmaker and just
jotted things down.
And then I would go back and say, oh, I love that, the villa of
Julia Felix, I should make her acharacter.
And then, over a glass of wineback in my villa.
(08:52):
Julia Felix became part of mybook and then last summer I went
to Turkey, uh, near the ruinsof Troy, and did the same thing,
wandered over Troy and and tryto follow the uh where uh
Achilles and Agamemnon went andwhere they did all the raids.
So it just inspired me to livein their world, even though very
(09:12):
little was left of Troy, verylittle was left of it.
That muse being along theMediterranean, imagining seeing
those ships sail up the Aegean,that stuff just fuels my
creativity and I wrote the bookvery quickly that way.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, it certainly sounds as if you enjoy writing
creative fiction.
You know, it's not a chore.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh no, it can't be.
I don't think if you're goinginto any kind of creative
fiction or creative filmmaking,whatever, you better bloody well
love it.
A, because you won't get richon it.
But also, two, it's a lot ofwork and you have to kind of let
go.
I on it.
But also too, it's a lot ofwork and you have to kind of let
go.
I mean, you have to not beafraid to fail.
This first couple drafts aregoing to be really, really
crappy and you need your betareaders.
You need people to say, neil,this doesn't work or you're
(09:53):
repeating yourself, and you haveto have a thick skin.
But also too, I find, once Idive into it, it's so much fun
to be lost in that world.
You know, be lost in that world, you know.
I, I, my husband, hates it whenI started off and he loves and
he hates it.
But he loves it because heknows I'm happy, but he hates it
because he doesn't see me.
I get up at 5 am and then youknow he'll come back in the
(10:14):
afternoon.
I have an empty pizza box onthe floor and I'm still typing
away.
It's like.
It's like I'm a wall, I'm nolonger there, and then I come up
for the evening, so it is avery solitary experience, unlike
filmmaking, unlike television,which is very much collaborative
, but it's also very much yourown.
Every line in those books, forbetter or worse, comes from your
layer.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Can I move you back a bit in time and look at your
career?
So what really inspired you tofocus your career on historical
documentaries.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It's a good question.
And when I've talked aboutanother podcast people were like
how the hell did you becomesuch an Egypt geek or whatever?
And when I was a kid I reallythought I would do feature films
.
I always loved the greathistorical epics growing up, the
Good, the Bad and the Ugly, theSeven Samurai, lawrence of
Arabia, these were my friends.
You know I could watch themover and over and over again.
I friends, you know I couldwatch them over and over and
(11:09):
over again.
I just love historical sweep.
That goes away.
So I always thought that I wouldgo to film school and, you know
, come out and become david leanovernight.
And then, you know, be thateasy.
So I went to film school anddid not become david lean
overnight.
I was a poor schlub hoarding awalkie talkie on some crappy
horror film in queens at four inthe morning.
So they didn't steal the griptruck.
You know the lowest of the lowand make and working for my, you
know, twenty dollars a day,what the hell was in the late
(11:30):
80s.
So after a couple years Ibecame I mean that dissolution.
I just got very antsy.
I realized, well, you know Ibetter, something's got to break
.
Um, but partially the way Ifound history, which I didn't
get.
Growing with a small catholic.
I was out of Pittsburgh,pennsylvania, a very small town,
middle America, so except forCatholic education and the
(11:52):
apostles I didn't get too muchancient history, and that's
questionable.
So I had a lot of free time inNew York waiting for the phone
not to ring between horror films, and I started hanging out at
the New York Public Librarybecause it was free and air
conditioned, I can get a bookout and not pay for it and for
whatever.
One day I picked up a book offthe shelf about Neolithic man,
about the rise of Neolithiccivilization, which is something
(12:15):
I knew nothing about, nothing.
And so I picked it up and Iread it there, went back to my
you know crappy little Manhattanhovel and a penny dropped and I
just became absolutely enamoredof this.
I couldn't believe the rise ofcivilization and I resolved to
teach myself history throughfree books at the library,
(12:36):
certainly at the time, and so Igobbled up book after book after
book and then I got to Egyptand Mesopotamia and the Fertile
Crescent and I kind of got stuck.
I became so fascinated by thosecultures that I almost didn't
want to go any further.
So I just sort of said, well,screw it, I'm going to go
backpack.
So I backpacked through thoseworlds for about eight or nine
(12:57):
months, seeing Syria, iran,turkey, egypt, israel and if
it's considered a map, I saw it,you know, didn't go to Iraq
because I think it was a bitdodgy then, as it is now.
But then it came back with myhead in the clouds and I said
how can I do this for a living?
Documentary filmmaking,documentary filmmaking.
So I went and got my master'sdegree in documentary, made my
(13:19):
thesis about the great Sphinx ofEgypt and I've been doing it
ever since, and that's 30 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, so that was from Columbia University.
I think you got the MFAMaster's in Fine Arts, Is that
right?
Columbia College, chicago, itwas a smaller arts school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then how did you make thatleap?
It's one thing you know wantingto make documentary films.
It's quite another to end upmaking them for Discovery,
(13:45):
national Geographic and History.
How did you get that?
It was a bit of luck and it wasa bit of passion certainly both
.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But when I was at Columbia I became close friends
with another student namedHasham, who's from Cairo Still
good friends and his father wason the antiquities board in
Egypt.
So he was over at my house oneday at an archaeology magazine
about who built the Sphinx andwhy, and he looked at it and
says, oh, my dad's involved inthat.
Holy shit, you know, anotherpenny dropping.
(14:12):
So I scrambled together whatlittle money I had and my thesis
film, which you know I don'tknow how it is in the UK or
elsewhere, but your thesis islike what you know in the MFA
you have to make something.
So mine was on the Great Sphinxof Egypt and Hisham's father
was able to get us into theantiquities board without the
fees.
So we flew to the Sphinx.
(14:33):
We're climbing over the Sphinx,climbing the pyramids, all for
free.
Today it costs you like 10,000pounds to put a tripod down.
It's ridiculous.
It's so freaking expensive.
I was a poor student doing itfor free and I used the film
school equipment which wasn'tallowed to be taken out of the
city of Chicago.
I took it to the Giza Plateauand shot a film there.
(14:54):
I remember returning it thetripod and it rattled with sand
inside the tripod.
The woman behind the cage, thefilm cage, says you didn't take
this to lake michigan, did you?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I said yes, man but you still haven't answered my
question how did you get thebreak into institutional tv?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
well, no, I.
Luckily I was able to sell thatfilm to the Learning Channel,
my thesis film.
I was working at a productioncompany called Cartemquin.
And again more luck, there's adocumentary that came out that
year called Hoop Dreams.
It's one of the bestdocumentaries.
Oh yes, I was an assistanteditor on Hoop Dreams and so of
course, those guys were flaminghot.
(15:36):
They were so popular.
After then I got one of them toput their name on as an exec, so
that got me in the door atdiscovery and a learning channel
.
So I probably would.
I would just been some poor kidtrying to sell a film if it
wasn't for the fact that Iworked on hoop dreams and the
exec of hoop dreams slappedtheir name on it and went to
egypt with me and got a freetrip out of it and was a sound
(15:57):
guy.
So it all worked out well.
So ever since then, so it wasall you know, a lot of it's a
lot, a lot of it's trying.
Um, you know, I would say don'twait around for either alone.
You got to find both and jumpon it, and so because of that I
skipped right into directing andproducing rather than work my
way up like the poor schlub withthe walkie-talkie, I went right
(16:18):
to the uh, the creative stuffin tv, and I've been doing ever
since wow.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
So which, which one I probably told you found was
challenging, what was the most?
Did you have any not scarystory about?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
you know I've given, you know, lectures on just you
know the things that have gonewrong.
You know I've gotten dysenterythree times in india and egypt
and where else?
Guam, I think.
Um, I got chased by a grizzlybear in alaska no, it was
wyoming.
Um, I got shaken down by themafia in sicily because they
(16:53):
didn't like what we're shooting.
I mean, it's an endless, isn'tit's you know?
It's you should?
Speaker 3 (16:58):
do a biography maybe.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, it really is Indiana Jones with you
, isn't it it?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
can happen.
You've got to fly by the seatof your pants, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
One interesting question thatoccurred to me is there's a lot
of ignorance about the ancientworld amongst the public.
From all your travels and allyour research, what do you think
is the one or two mostimportant things that you feel
people should know about theancient world that they tend not
to know?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's a good question, I would say.
One is they're not nearly asprimitive as we think we like to
think.
A lot of people like to thinkthat history is.
You know, it's always going up,up, up and you compare us to a
Roman or Egyptian.
They're just a bunch ofNeanderthals, not true?
I mean, they were buildingaqueducts and pyramids and you
know we can't figure out how toturn a computer on sometimes.
So I'm not saying we're anydumber, but we're not any
(17:50):
smarter.
It's just that the cultureshave changed.
One thing that has become a realpassion for me, and I've done.
My books reflect this.
In fact, my books one of thetheses of my books, jared
Plummer and Kara the directorand Cameron respectively are gay
, and so after the first bookwhere it deals with Jared's,
(18:12):
coming out, they make a missionto tell stories of forgotten
gays and LGBTQ people from theancient past.
And I did that because onething I learned, particularly in
Egypt and Greece and thoseplaces, is, in many ways it was
much freer and more opensexuality, same sex unions than
it is today.
It didn't have the negativeconnotations, it was just
(18:36):
another part of life.
So when people say that we'remore open and more free today
than we were.
You know, it's all a.
It depends what you're talkingabout.
Yes, you know the Romans hadslavery, but also you could be
whoever you wanted and lovewhoever you wanted.
So clearly it's not like onewins and one loses, but
particularly when it comes tosexuality and individual
preference, they were much moreenlightened than we are
(19:01):
individual preference.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
They were much more enlightened than we are.
So, yeah, so was it.
Was it sort of a choice by youto put it out as a talk about it
in relation to the ancientworld rather than speak about in
a modern setting?
Or is it because of your loveanyway for the classics, and so
there was natural step fromthere to them that I think you
know I'm much more interested inthe ancient world than I am
sort of modern history, it'slike.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Not that I'm not interested in 20th century
history, but I just love thatpart of the world and I love to
entertain and educate peopleabout these forgotten cultures,
because we only know so little,people know so so little about
their world that that's kind ofmy bailiwick and that's my
passion.
So it's a very natural thingfor me to talk about these
places because I have been in intombs.
It's a great place in Saqqarain Egypt called the Tomb of the
(19:42):
Brothers and it clearly is twogay guys who were married, who
were buried together and it'sthe most lovely, wonderful tomb
and their arm and arm the entiretime.
Their sarcophagus are next toeach other and the mere fact
that they are buried in theshadow of the ziggurat or the
step pyramid means that thepharaoh approved of it, because
this is the most elitenecropolis in egypt.
You know it was only calledtomb of the brothers because in
(20:04):
1964, whenever when they foundit, homophobia was much stronger
than it was in 3000 bc and theycouldn't possibly possibly be
two gay guys.
It had to be two brothers,someone even posited because
they're so close together.
They were siamese twins andthat's why they're.
That's why they're looking upface to face, not because
they're kissing close together.
They were Siamese twins andthat's why they're looking up
face to face, not becausethey're kissing which they are,
it's because they literallycan't get away from one another.
(20:25):
So those kind of stories makesme want to disseminate and
reveal how the ancient worldreally thought.
But whatever, and it's coupledwith the adventure, as you say,
indiana Jones, it's much moreexciting to go back into the
temples of the pharaohs than itis going back like a shopping
mall in Queens in 1980 orwhatever.
(20:46):
You know, it's more exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
It might be a different type of excitement
Definitely, yeah, I knowDefinitely.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Now, of course, in your novels, it's not just the
ancient world, you also, um havethe scrapes of your tv crew, um
which, uh, it could be thinlydisguised in terms of the
relationship to the real worldthere's a noxious tv host um
(21:15):
called derrick dees, I think inthe in the novels.
So can you comment about theway in which you've brought in
the world of contemporary TV andhow it's reflected in the novel
?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Absolutely.
Look, I love TV and I'm stillworking in it, but definitely
like any kind of behind thescenes, people love to know all
that stuff is made.
So I'm skewering television,I'm skewering how we make shows
and I'm skewering how we tellstories and create fantasies and
how we pretend we'readventurous when we're not, how
we pretend we discover thingswhen they're already, you know,
discovered by archaeologists 30years ago.
(21:46):
We just like them better.
So I kind of want to have alittle satire on my business as
well.
And again, I think there's somegreat stuff on television
that's done.
But you know, people lovebehind the scenes and I've had
some great stories to tell aboutthe people that I met.
All the names have been changedand there's no one person
that's here.
It's just a.
It's just a hodgepodge of allthe things that I have done and,
you know, created littlearchetypes and it's fun because
(22:09):
I can dip in.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Is there any story you care to share with our
viewers?
With the anonymized or or not.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Um, yeah, probably because I'm in the business, I
shouldn't share that, but youknow, let's just say that if you
read the book you know it mightbe over the top a bit, but it's
not too far from what some youknow studio heads and things
like that are like and how we'reexpected to act.
You know one of the places thatone of the the kind of people I
wanted to go after was there'sa series over here called
(22:40):
Ancient Aliens and I haven'tworked on.
I don't know if you get in theUK and it's just a load of
rubbish.
We do yeah, then you know theyknow it's junk and and it's been
on, but it's also one of themost successful shows on
whatever network.
It is more part of the peoplethat are working on it.
But I hate the paranormal.
I hate people saying thepyramids were built by you.
You know lost civilizations andall this rubbish, you know.
(23:00):
We call them pyramidiots in myline of work, you know, and so
the crew is kind of working onone of those silly shows.
So it was their eye openingexperience to go from kind of
like being sort of craven hacksto having to get the hell out of
ancient Egypt before Ramsey theGreat kills them, you know.
So in a way it's kind ofparodying those people who think
they have all the answers andthey don't know anything and
(23:22):
they get back and say, holy shit, okay, this is more serious
than I thought so, yeah, itreally focuses the mind when
you're chased by Ramesses theGreat, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
so in that sense, I have noticed this as well on
those shows, because we get themin the UK as well.
We get the channels NationalGeographic, discovery, the
History Channel in particular,and it's all full of these
titles.
You know Mysteries, you knowmysteries, you know ancient
aliens, as you say, there seemsto be a lot of trying to sell
(23:58):
documentaries on mystery, andit's not too far to leap to the
paranormal, as you say.
So do you feel that this is areal negative trend?
Now?
In trying to get gooddocumentaries onto these US
channels, you've got to kind ofwrap it up in some kind of
mystery nowadays.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a trend because it's been
around so long.
I mean, they're doing thatstuff in the 70s, with TV shows
called like In Search of, aboutBigfoot and, you know, chariots
of the Gods, so it's nothing new.
I think it's frustrating when Italk to people and I'll meet
somebody somewhere and they say,oh, you work in TV.
Is it true the pyramids werebuilt by levitation or is it
true that the Sphinx was builtby aliens or whatever?
(24:38):
I have to roll my eyes becausethese are the things that they
see and these are the thingsthat they glob on.
Now there's other documentariesout there and the BBC and PBS
and Discovery sometimes do somegreat stuff.
So it's not like everything hasto be the paranormal, but those
things.
Whatever reason.
People like a conspiracy,people like mystery.
(24:59):
Even my shows, even if I do oneabout looking for ancient Troy,
it'll still be the mysteries orsecrets of Troy.
We'll still slap a title likethat on it, because that's how
you get eyeballs.
And even as you write a show,it can't just be a question of
let's talk about anarchaeological site.
It has to be what happened here, how did they die?
People love questions andthat's okay.
That's a framing device, but Ido think they can often spill
(25:22):
into just kind of creatingsomething that's not true and we
call it false jeopardy or youknow where.
You just kind of create someidea that isn't there but allows
people to keep watching,particularly in American TV
where you have five commercialbreaks.
You got to make sure peopledon't skip out over the
commercial.
You have to tease at the endwhen you return.
You know actually, your mom.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Can I just ask you for our young audience, what
advice would you give to anaspiring filmmaker, particularly
a documentary filmmaker,Because I'm thinking maybe many
young people you know theyaren't interested to get into
the area.
What sort of advice would you?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I mean it's a new world, and when I was coming up
in the 90s and the 00s, I meanthose don't exist anymore
because streaming has changedeverything.
Even as I mentioned commercialbreaks, most people are watching
stuff on streaming and they'remade for streaming and they
don't exist anymore because it'sall subscription based.
So don't follow the path I didin 1996 and it won't get you
anywhere.
I think to anybody who wants towrite a book or make a
(26:27):
documentary produce something,don't wait for someone to give
you the gift of hiring you.
If you've got a short film inyou, shoot it.
If you've got a novel, startwriting it.
The first couple of drafts willbe dodgy and you'll fall on your
face, but people want to seeresults.
I know someone came to me andsaid oh, you know, I want to be
your assistant and no assistantis going to have any credits If
(26:49):
someone has, like, I've beenworking as an assistant editor
in like a shoe store for sixyears and someone said I made
four films.
You know, at home I pick thatkid Because that person is
excited about the business.
That person is already tryingstories out.
Your resume is your work.
Yeah, even at that early levelProduce.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Produce, do something .
Yeah, two sort of relatedquestions here.
The future, first of all.
What's the future for NeilLaird in terms of what you want
to do next?
But also, what's the future doyou think of TV and the kind of
world that you've worked in,given, as you say, the rise of
streaming and the way in which?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And AI and AI, which is a topic, yeah, that you've
worked in.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Given, as you say, the rise of streaming and the
way in which and AI and AI,which is a topic, yeah, for me
it's like I have a few moreyears writing television.
I don't think I need to do thebig, you know, deep dives.
I'm happy to write and dosmaller projects because I've
done so many, but I want tocontinue to write novels too and
I'll finish Troy and have a fewother ideas.
(27:53):
My husband and I want to retiresomewhere with a Mediterranean
sunset view, maybe over a ruin,somewhere, you know, in the
Eastern Mediterranean, andthat's our goal and our plan.
Now.
He's much younger than me, he's10 years younger, so I won't be
anytime soon, but I love towrite and if I can keep doing
some smaller project to keepthat going, then I'll do that
and part of it and that kind ofdovetails with.
(28:15):
The second question istelevision is very dying.
Uh, certainly for people in thein my age, in the 50s, with
ageism, it's like it's adifferent world than when I did
it and less because there's lessshow, entire network.
I lost my job at discoverybecause my entire network
science channel went away.
Like 40 of us got laid off inone day 800 people that got laid
(28:36):
off Other networks, entirenetworks went away.
So that simply means not onlyjust the exec jobs the network
that I had but also that meansless product, less production
and therefore less people needed.
So I all things on LinkedInabout people who you know, who
are sound guys or graphics guysin Hollywood for 20 years and
now they're bagging groceries atTrader Joe's because it's the
(28:58):
only thing they can get.
So it is a very, very toughtime, a time of transition.
I don't know where it's goingto shake out.
It's not going to go back tothe way it was, the halcyon days
, where it was so much, so muchproduction going on in la new
york and london three cities Iwill work in um that people are
gonna have to reinventthemselves.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
A lot of people are we said, we suddenly saw that
and when we visited la thatthere appeared to be a lot of.
We visited first 15 years agoand then this year last year and
it seems to be that almost alot of productions have actually
left Hollywood and a lot offilms were actually shot
overseas yeah, yeah, yeah, Imean everything's changing and
(29:41):
it's like it's a question ofwhere they go and what they make
and I don't even view a tasterchanging, not just streamers.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
But you know I do these four part big series on
Pompeii or whatever, and nowpeople were happy to watch a
10-minute youtube or afour-minute tiktok or whatever
and get their information.
So the younger generationsaren't going towards those
classic blue chip davidattenborough like documentaries,
like they used to um, and I'mnot sure they're going to come
(30:07):
back.
So again, even the art formthat I have spent three decades
in maybe on the way out, with arare exception and we haven't
mentioned what charlotte touchedon, given her own passions, for
it is ai.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Could we have a future?
It's all produced by ai andyeah, I mean the.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know hosts don't go on location anymore, they'll
just get a backdrop of thepyramids.
You know you don't need copyeditors.
You don't eventually probablywant to script writers.
There's so much of that stuff.
The knock on effect is onlybeginning to be seen with my
books.
It's very interesting becauseall my books, of course, written
by Hank, by my human, you knowmy computer, you know my
(30:52):
computer.
But when you go online andstuff, they make sure that the
AI there's no AI in your bookcover.
You haven't done any of thisstuff and it was hard to police.
You can see people are reallysort of circling the wagons and
making sure we try to take careof our own because, particularly
with self publishing, if youyou can crank that stuff out and
people don't care about quality, you can, you know, write six
books a week and get it out, andthat stuff starts to take on.
Write six books a week and getit out, and that stuff starts to
(31:14):
take on again.
The knock-on effect is less andless jobs and less and less
opportunities for creativewriters.
So that world is.
It obviously makes our lifeeasier, but in terms of how we
create and how we gatherinformation and all that stuff
we're only beginning to see.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, so with your comic book, do you think there
will be more?
Okay, so you're on.
The third one is it can youforesee a whole series of of?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
this?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I don't know I mean, I think, or do you have any
other projects in?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I mean, by the way I had two other books that I
didn't that I try to gettraditional agent for and
couldn't I might go back to oneof those and so, uh,
self-publish those or writesomething else a series.
It's hard to know.
We'll see how well troy doesand we'll also see if I'm still
interested in it and I kill offone of the main characters in
the next book.
So you know, maybe that's theend.
(32:02):
I won't tell you who.
You have to wait till it comesout maybe that's my mind telling
you.
Okay, I I'm getting sick ofthese characters.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So we should mention this third book.
When is it due out, Neil Goodquestion.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm taking off to Italy tomorrow for a few weeks
and do some writing even thoughit's on Troy and then I hop on a
project back here in the States, a TV job.
So I think when that wraps inAugust I'll probably head back
out to the mediterraneansomewhere and finish it so
hopefully early next yearbrilliant and uh yes, yes, a lot
(32:37):
for that, thank you, thank youand the
Speaker 3 (32:39):
final question here.
So what is this?
Something you would have?
What would you have told your21st year old self, or when you
were young?
Is there something you wouldhave told or something you would
have done differently, or?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
good question.
I, you know, I think I mean Ileap before, I look even then,
like with the Sphinx, and thenyou know, maybe I would have
written that book, you know,when Bowie was still alive, you
know, rather than afterwards.
But again, I think I've alreadysaid I think don't wait.
I mean don't be afraid to fail.
We're all so terrified,particularly in this age where
we can get shamed so easily onsocial media.
(33:10):
People can jump on you.
It's not easy, you have to havea thick skin, and so I think
you know, if I told myself thatI said you know, don't wait,
don't wait, just do it and isthere anything else you want to
leave with our viewers?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
and also, how can they get in contact with you if
they would or they can be, ofcourse, buy your books, but is
there any other?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
way they can.
I have a newsletter.
Yeah, my website neolairdcom.
You can sign up for mynewsletter there.
Every couple of months I sendout links and conversations
about both television and mybooks.
And then Amazon has both of mybooks, both the US and UK.
Just type in Neil Laird orPrimetime Travelers or Primetime
Pompeii and they come up.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And let me know what you think if you read the book.
Well, great stuff, let me know.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Absolutely well, thanks ever so much, neil, and
the best of luck for the futurethank you very much.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Thank you very much and thank you for enjoying
another episode of the final cut.
And you know we can fight.
You can follow us here onyoutube or on your podcast host.
Thanks again for tuning in.
Thank you.
Spotlights fade, the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes.
Charlotte and John with thefinal say.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Breaking down the screens in their own way.
This is the Final Cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Hi and welcome to another episode of Final Cut.
Today we're delighted tointroduce our first guest and
John, could you introduce ourfirst guest?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, thanks, charlotte.
So it's a great pleasure towelcome the first guest on our
new podcast series, and his nameis Neil Laird and he has done
and produced and directed, aswell as written, over a thousand
hours of nonfiction programmingfor channels such as Discovery,
the History Channel, nationalGeographic, as well as the BBC
(01:23):
and Channel 4.
National Geographic as well asthe BBC and Channel 4.
So, basically, if you've been aviewer of US cable TV
documentary channels over thelast 20, 25 years, you'll have
come across quite a few of hisworks, including Shark Week,
which he was executive produceron, which has quite a cult
following, as well as his ownpassion area, which is ancient
(01:46):
history and shows about theancient world and about ancient
Egypt.
(02:08):
Neil crossed over last year andbegan to write creative fiction
with a fascinating new series ofbooks called Jared Plummer
versus the Ancient World,beginning with a novel that was
released a year ago calledPrimetime Travellers, with a
follow-up published later lastyear called Primetime Pompeii,
and I believe a third is in theworks called Primetime Troy.
(02:28):
Now this revolves around thefictional adventures of a
fictional documentary crew ledby a relatively inexperienced TV
director called Jared Plummer,who mysteriously is given by an
(02:50):
old lady, an ancient portalwhich allows him to travel back
in time to ancient Egypt, tomake quote-unquote, the greatest
documentary ever made.
Now, online reviewers have beenextremely complimentary about
Neil's books, describing them assort of Indiana Jones meets
Doctor who.
Others have compared them tothe Outlander series and to the
(03:12):
Percy Jackson series in the waysin which they blend a
fascination with ancient history, mixing it up with elements of
fantasy and aspects of ourcontemporary world.
So, neil, it's a great pleasureto introduce you and to welcome
you to our Final Cut podcast.
And can I just begin with avery basic first question.
You spent so long working innon-fiction television.
(03:34):
What induced and inspired youto move over into creative
writing?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That's a very good question.
It certainly wasn't somethingthat I ever planned to say.
After a quarter century, I'mgoing to move over and be a
novelist, mostly becausenovelists don't make a bloody
dime, you know.
So it's.
It's hardly a second Don't.
Don't make it your first career.
Make it your second career whenyou have some money in the bank
.
It was passion and it camelargely out of doing television
(03:58):
for again 25 years.
I made my first film in 1996about the Great Sphinx, which
has always been my passion place, egypt, as you said.
And after a thousand hours oftelevision and over a hundred
series, I kind of got tired ofsticking to the facts.
I kind of got tired offootnotes.
I kind of got tired of you know.
(04:19):
Well, I wish Ramsey could saythat, but I can't put words in
Ramsey's mouth because DiscoveryChannel won't let me, you know,
or BBC won't let me.
So it's funny.
It was.
It was I decided to write myfirst book in 2016.
And by that point I'd alreadybeen thinking a bit about I want
to create fiction.
I want to take what I knowabout television, my love of the
(04:40):
ancient world, and combine them.
But of course, getting off theseat and doing it is much more
difficult than thinking about it.
Writing a book is not easy, butagain, 2016, two things
happened that really kind oflike pushed me forward.
One is I turned 50 and Irealized, oh bloody hell,
there's a lot more time behindme than ahead of me.
So stop thinking about it, neil.
And the other one is in Januaryof that year, my great creative
(05:04):
hero died, david Bowie.
And even though he was amusician and not a writer, I
have been a Bowie freak sincethe late 70s.
I bought every album that cameout and I knew everything he was
doing, forward and back.
And it was only after I readhis obituary which, again, I
knew so well that I was remindedof what made Bowie so brilliant
(05:25):
was he was fearless.
With every album, he recreatedhimself.
With every album, he took youto a new world.
He was not afraid to fail.
He was not afraid to trysomething and then move on if it
didn't work.
And I remember thinking therelike well, clearly I can't be
Bowie, but maybe Neil Laird hasone Bowie album in him, one, one
, one trick up his sleeve.
So let's find out and do it.
(05:46):
So, in a way, it was theinspiration of those two things
that said, okay, I've startedwriting.
And then I just dived intotaking my two things that I love
so well my day job and mypassion of ancient Egypt and
ancient Rome and ancient Greeceand I combined them into a very
satirical, fun time travel novelsomething I could never do for
television.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Interesting.
So what inspired this latestnovel?
Why did you want to write athird book in the series?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's all about.
The books are self-publishedand the way you gain an audience
in self-publishing is to havebooks on the shelf.
So then you go back and youhave two or three books you can
sell and you can get out there.
It's about building a name andso, unlike traditional
publishing, which takes yearsand years and years between
books because the agent has todo this, and that you can
(06:37):
publish and write anytime youwant.
So I have found that by havingtwo books out already and the
third one being promised andbeing sent up, that it builds
the anticipation, it builds theaudience.
I have a newsletter I send outand it's really a way for the
independent publishing market tokind of get a name for
themselves by simply becausepeople don't.
People don't want to wait twoyears for a book.
(06:58):
They like the book, they wantto read the next chapter
tomorrow.
I'm not that fast of a writer,but I could probably crank it
out in less than a year.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah Well, I'm always fascinated with, anytime I've
spoken to creative writers, howthey actually write.
Now, the interesting thing withyou, of course, is that you're
dealing with historical material, so it must involve a certain
amount of research.
A good few years ago, charlotteand I encountered Diana
Gabaldon, the author of theOutlander novels, who was
(07:27):
visiting Scotland, and she saidthat in fact, she just read a
whole load of books aboutScotland and never visited
Scotland, and yet wrote it allout from that.
But in your case, you'vevisited some of these places,
most of them, or all of them.
So why, how do you blendresearch and fiction?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is, for it's a lot of travel.
But again, starting with Egyptwas a known brain.
The first book is Egypt.
Second book is Pompeii andEgypt.
I know so well.
I've been there a dozen times,I've shot a dozen documentaries.
I've been there so many times.
I know the.
I just read books on Egyptologyfor fun.
You know so, I know so.
It was easy.
For me.
The research only came up when Ihad to figure out exact time
(08:10):
period or things like that.
And there are always littlestories about ancient Egypt that
would love to fictionalize.
The world's first court case,the world's first strike, the
world's first tomb robbers, allthese things were fascinating,
so I brought them into my bookand fictionalized them.
And then with the last twobooks, with Pompeii and with
Troy, which is being written now, I rented a villa near the
(08:31):
sites.
So for Pompeii I rented a villanear Sorrento and I would hop
the train every other day or soand I'd wander around Pompeii
which I'd been to but never as adocumentary filmmaker and just
jotted things down.
And then I would go back and say, oh, I love that, the villa of
Julia Felix, I should make her acharacter.
And then, over a glass of wineback in my villa.
(08:52):
Julia Felix became part of mybook and then last summer I went
to Turkey, uh, near the ruinsof Troy, and did the same thing,
wandered over Troy and and tryto follow the uh where uh
Achilles and Agamemnon went andwhere they did all the raids.
So it just inspired me to livein their world, even though very
(09:12):
little was left of Troy, verylittle was left of it.
That muse being along theMediterranean, imagining seeing
those ships sail up the Aegean,that stuff just fuels my
creativity and I wrote the bookvery quickly that way.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, it certainly sounds as if you enjoy writing
creative fiction.
You know, it's not a chore.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh no, it can't be.
I don't think if you're goinginto any kind of creative
fiction or creative filmmaking,whatever, you better bloody well
love it.
A, because you won't get richon it.
But also, two, it's a lot ofwork and you have to kind of let
go.
I on it.
But also too, it's a lot ofwork and you have to kind of let
go.
I mean, you have to not beafraid to fail.
This first couple drafts aregoing to be really, really
crappy and you need your betareaders.
You need people to say, neil,this doesn't work or you're
(09:53):
repeating yourself, and you haveto have a thick skin.
But also too, I find, once Idive into it, it's so much fun
to be lost in that world.
You know, be lost in that world, you know.
I, I, my husband, hates it whenI started off and he loves and
he hates it.
But he loves it because heknows I'm happy, but he hates it
because he doesn't see me.
I get up at 5 am and then youknow he'll come back in the
(10:14):
afternoon.
I have an empty pizza box onthe floor and I'm still typing
away.
It's like.
It's like I'm a wall, I'm nolonger there, and then I come up
for the evening, so it is avery solitary experience, unlike
filmmaking, unlike television,which is very much collaborative
, but it's also very much yourown.
Every line in those books, forbetter or worse, comes from your
layer.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Can I move you back a bit in time and look at your
career?
So what really inspired you tofocus your career on historical
documentaries.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It's a good question.
And when I've talked aboutanother podcast people were like
how the hell did you becomesuch an Egypt geek or whatever?
And when I was a kid I reallythought I would do feature films
.
I always loved the greathistorical epics growing up, the
Good, the Bad and the Ugly, theSeven Samurai, lawrence of
Arabia, these were my friends.
You know I could watch themover and over and over again.
I friends, you know I couldwatch them over and over and
(11:09):
over again.
I just love historical sweep.
That goes away.
So I always thought that I wouldgo to film school and, you know
, come out and become david leanovernight.
And then, you know, be thateasy.
So I went to film school anddid not become david lean
overnight.
I was a poor schlub hoarding awalkie talkie on some crappy
horror film in queens at four inthe morning.
So they didn't steal the griptruck.
You know the lowest of the lowand make and working for my, you
know, twenty dollars a day,what the hell was in the late
(11:30):
80s.
So after a couple years Ibecame I mean that dissolution.
I just got very antsy.
I realized, well, you know Ibetter, something's got to break
.
Um, but partially the way Ifound history, which I didn't
get.
Growing with a small catholic.
I was out of Pittsburgh,pennsylvania, a very small town,
middle America, so except forCatholic education and the
(11:52):
apostles I didn't get too muchancient history, and that's
questionable.
So I had a lot of free time inNew York waiting for the phone
not to ring between horror films, and I started hanging out at
the New York Public Librarybecause it was free and air
conditioned, I can get a bookout and not pay for it and for
whatever.
One day I picked up a book offthe shelf about Neolithic man,
about the rise of Neolithiccivilization, which is something
(12:15):
I knew nothing about, nothing.
And so I picked it up and Iread it there, went back to my
you know crappy little Manhattanhovel and a penny dropped and I
just became absolutely enamoredof this.
I couldn't believe the rise ofcivilization and I resolved to
teach myself history throughfree books at the library,
(12:36):
certainly at the time, and so Igobbled up book after book after
book and then I got to Egyptand Mesopotamia and the Fertile
Crescent and I kind of got stuck.
I became so fascinated by thosecultures that I almost didn't
want to go any further.
So I just sort of said, well,screw it, I'm going to go
backpack.
So I backpacked through thoseworlds for about eight or nine
(12:57):
months, seeing Syria, iran,turkey, egypt, israel and if
it's considered a map, I saw it,you know, didn't go to Iraq
because I think it was a bitdodgy then, as it is now.
But then it came back with myhead in the clouds and I said
how can I do this for a living?
Documentary filmmaking,documentary filmmaking.
So I went and got my master'sdegree in documentary, made my
(13:19):
thesis about the great Sphinx ofEgypt and I've been doing it
ever since, and that's 30 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, so that was from Columbia University.
I think you got the MFAMaster's in Fine Arts, Is that
right?
Columbia College, chicago, itwas a smaller arts school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then how did you make thatleap?
It's one thing you know wantingto make documentary films.
It's quite another to end upmaking them for Discovery,
(13:45):
national Geographic and History.
How did you get that?
It was a bit of luck and it wasa bit of passion certainly both
.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But when I was at Columbia I became close friends
with another student namedHasham, who's from Cairo Still
good friends and his father wason the antiquities board in
Egypt.
So he was over at my house oneday at an archaeology magazine
about who built the Sphinx andwhy, and he looked at it and
says, oh, my dad's involved inthat.
Holy shit, you know, anotherpenny dropping.
(14:12):
So I scrambled together whatlittle money I had and my thesis
film, which you know I don'tknow how it is in the UK or
elsewhere, but your thesis islike what you know in the MFA
you have to make something.
So mine was on the Great Sphinxof Egypt and Hisham's father
was able to get us into theantiquities board without the
fees.
So we flew to the Sphinx.
(14:33):
We're climbing over the Sphinx,climbing the pyramids, all for
free.
Today it costs you like 10,000pounds to put a tripod down.
It's ridiculous.
It's so freaking expensive.
I was a poor student doing itfor free and I used the film
school equipment which wasn'tallowed to be taken out of the
city of Chicago.
I took it to the Giza Plateauand shot a film there.
(14:54):
I remember returning it thetripod and it rattled with sand
inside the tripod.
The woman behind the cage, thefilm cage, says you didn't take
this to lake michigan, did you?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I said yes, man but you still haven't answered my
question how did you get thebreak into institutional tv?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
well, no, I.
Luckily I was able to sell thatfilm to the Learning Channel,
my thesis film.
I was working at a productioncompany called Cartemquin.
And again more luck, there's adocumentary that came out that
year called Hoop Dreams.
It's one of the bestdocumentaries.
Oh yes, I was an assistanteditor on Hoop Dreams and so of
course, those guys were flaminghot.
(15:36):
They were so popular.
After then I got one of them toput their name on as an exec, so
that got me in the door atdiscovery and a learning channel
.
So I probably would.
I would just been some poor kidtrying to sell a film if it
wasn't for the fact that Iworked on hoop dreams and the
exec of hoop dreams slappedtheir name on it and went to
egypt with me and got a freetrip out of it and was a sound
(15:57):
guy.
So it all worked out well.
So ever since then, so it wasall you know, a lot of it's a
lot, a lot of it's trying.
Um, you know, I would say don'twait around for either alone.
You got to find both and jumpon it, and so because of that I
skipped right into directing andproducing rather than work my
way up like the poor schlub withthe walkie-talkie, I went right
(16:18):
to the uh, the creative stuffin tv, and I've been doing ever
since wow.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
So which, which one I probably told you found was
challenging, what was the most?
Did you have any not scarystory about?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
you know I've given, you know, lectures on just you
know the things that have gonewrong.
You know I've gotten dysenterythree times in india and egypt
and where else?
Guam, I think.
Um, I got chased by a grizzlybear in alaska no, it was
wyoming.
Um, I got shaken down by themafia in sicily because they
(16:53):
didn't like what we're shooting.
I mean, it's an endless, isn'tit's you know?
It's you should?
Speaker 3 (16:58):
do a biography maybe.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, it really is Indiana Jones with you
, isn't it it?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
can happen.
You've got to fly by the seatof your pants, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
One interesting question thatoccurred to me is there's a lot
of ignorance about the ancientworld amongst the public.
From all your travels and allyour research, what do you think
is the one or two mostimportant things that you feel
people should know about theancient world that they tend not
to know?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's a good question, I would say.
One is they're not nearly asprimitive as we think we like to
think.
A lot of people like to thinkthat history is.
You know, it's always going up,up, up and you compare us to a
Roman or Egyptian.
They're just a bunch ofNeanderthals, not true?
I mean, they were buildingaqueducts and pyramids and you
know we can't figure out how toturn a computer on sometimes.
So I'm not saying we're anydumber, but we're not any
(17:50):
smarter.
It's just that the cultureshave changed.
One thing that has become a realpassion for me, and I've done.
My books reflect this.
In fact, my books one of thetheses of my books, jared
Plummer and Kara the directorand Cameron respectively are gay
, and so after the first bookwhere it deals with Jared's,
(18:12):
coming out, they make a missionto tell stories of forgotten
gays and LGBTQ people from theancient past.
And I did that because onething I learned, particularly in
Egypt and Greece and thoseplaces, is, in many ways it was
much freer and more opensexuality, same sex unions than
it is today.
It didn't have the negativeconnotations, it was just
(18:36):
another part of life.
So when people say that we'remore open and more free today
than we were.
You know, it's all a.
It depends what you're talkingabout.
Yes, you know the Romans hadslavery, but also you could be
whoever you wanted and lovewhoever you wanted.
So clearly it's not like onewins and one loses, but
particularly when it comes tosexuality and individual
preference, they were much moreenlightened than we are
(19:01):
individual preference.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
They were much more enlightened than we are.
So, yeah, so was it.
Was it sort of a choice by youto put it out as a talk about it
in relation to the ancientworld rather than speak about in
a modern setting?
Or is it because of your loveanyway for the classics, and so
there was natural step fromthere to them that I think you
know I'm much more interested inthe ancient world than I am
sort of modern history, it'slike.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Not that I'm not interested in 20th century
history, but I just love thatpart of the world and I love to
entertain and educate peopleabout these forgotten cultures,
because we only know so little,people know so so little about
their world that that's kind ofmy bailiwick and that's my
passion.
So it's a very natural thingfor me to talk about these
places because I have been in intombs.
It's a great place in Saqqarain Egypt called the Tomb of the
(19:42):
Brothers and it clearly is twogay guys who were married, who
were buried together and it'sthe most lovely, wonderful tomb
and their arm and arm the entiretime.
Their sarcophagus are next toeach other and the mere fact
that they are buried in theshadow of the ziggurat or the
step pyramid means that thepharaoh approved of it, because
this is the most elitenecropolis in egypt.
You know it was only calledtomb of the brothers because in
(20:04):
1964, whenever when they foundit, homophobia was much stronger
than it was in 3000 bc and theycouldn't possibly possibly be
two gay guys.
It had to be two brothers,someone even posited because
they're so close together.
They were siamese twins andthat's why they're.
That's why they're looking upface to face, not because
they're kissing close together.
They were Siamese twins andthat's why they're looking up
face to face, not becausethey're kissing which they are,
it's because they literallycan't get away from one another.
(20:25):
So those kind of stories makesme want to disseminate and
reveal how the ancient worldreally thought.
But whatever, and it's coupledwith the adventure, as you say,
indiana Jones, it's much moreexciting to go back into the
temples of the pharaohs than itis going back like a shopping
mall in Queens in 1980 orwhatever.
(20:46):
You know, it's more exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
It might be a different type of excitement
Definitely, yeah, I knowDefinitely.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Now, of course, in your novels, it's not just the
ancient world, you also, um havethe scrapes of your tv crew, um
which, uh, it could be thinlydisguised in terms of the
relationship to the real worldthere's a noxious tv host um
(21:15):
called derrick dees, I think inthe in the novels.
So can you comment about theway in which you've brought in
the world of contemporary TV andhow it's reflected in the novel
?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Absolutely.
Look, I love TV and I'm stillworking in it, but definitely
like any kind of behind thescenes, people love to know all
that stuff is made.
So I'm skewering television,I'm skewering how we make shows
and I'm skewering how we tellstories and create fantasies and
how we pretend we'readventurous when we're not, how
we pretend we discover thingswhen they're already, you know,
discovered by archaeologists 30years ago.
(21:46):
We just like them better.
So I kind of want to have alittle satire on my business as
well.
And again, I think there's somegreat stuff on television
that's done.
But you know, people lovebehind the scenes and I've had
some great stories to tell aboutthe people that I met.
All the names have been changedand there's no one person
that's here.
It's just a.
It's just a hodgepodge of allthe things that I have done and,
you know, created littlearchetypes and it's fun because
(22:09):
I can dip in.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Is there any story you care to share with our
viewers?
With the anonymized or or not.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Um, yeah, probably because I'm in the business, I
shouldn't share that, but youknow, let's just say that if you
read the book you know it mightbe over the top a bit, but it's
not too far from what some youknow studio heads and things
like that are like and how we'reexpected to act.
You know one of the places thatone of the the kind of people I
wanted to go after was there'sa series over here called
(22:40):
Ancient Aliens and I haven'tworked on.
I don't know if you get in theUK and it's just a load of
rubbish.
We do yeah, then you know theyknow it's junk and and it's been
on, but it's also one of themost successful shows on
whatever network.
It is more part of the peoplethat are working on it.
But I hate the paranormal.
I hate people saying thepyramids were built by you.
You know lost civilizations andall this rubbish, you know.
(23:00):
We call them pyramidiots in myline of work, you know, and so
the crew is kind of working onone of those silly shows.
So it was their eye openingexperience to go from kind of
like being sort of craven hacksto having to get the hell out of
ancient Egypt before Ramsey theGreat kills them, you know.
So in a way it's kind ofparodying those people who think
they have all the answers andthey don't know anything and
(23:22):
they get back and say, holy shit, okay, this is more serious
than I thought so, yeah, itreally focuses the mind when
you're chased by Ramesses theGreat, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
so in that sense, I have noticed this as well on
those shows, because we get themin the UK as well.
We get the channels NationalGeographic, discovery, the
History Channel in particular,and it's all full of these
titles.
You know Mysteries, you knowmysteries, you know ancient
aliens, as you say, there seemsto be a lot of trying to sell
(23:58):
documentaries on mystery, andit's not too far to leap to the
paranormal, as you say.
So do you feel that this is areal negative trend?
Now?
In trying to get gooddocumentaries onto these US
channels, you've got to kind ofwrap it up in some kind of
mystery nowadays.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a trend because it's been
around so long.
I mean, they're doing thatstuff in the 70s, with TV shows
called like In Search of, aboutBigfoot and, you know, chariots
of the Gods, so it's nothing new.
I think it's frustrating when Italk to people and I'll meet
somebody somewhere and they say,oh, you work in TV.
Is it true the pyramids werebuilt by levitation or is it
true that the Sphinx was builtby aliens or whatever?
(24:38):
I have to roll my eyes becausethese are the things that they
see and these are the thingsthat they glob on.
Now there's other documentariesout there and the BBC and PBS
and Discovery sometimes do somegreat stuff.
So it's not like everything hasto be the paranormal, but those
things.
Whatever reason.
People like a conspiracy,people like mystery.
(24:59):
Even my shows, even if I do oneabout looking for ancient Troy,
it'll still be the mysteries orsecrets of Troy.
We'll still slap a title likethat on it, because that's how
you get eyeballs.
And even as you write a show,it can't just be a question of
let's talk about anarchaeological site.
It has to be what happened here, how did they die?
People love questions andthat's okay.
That's a framing device, but Ido think they can often spill
(25:22):
into just kind of creatingsomething that's not true and we
call it false jeopardy or youknow where.
You just kind of create someidea that isn't there but allows
people to keep watching,particularly in American TV
where you have five commercialbreaks.
You got to make sure peopledon't skip out over the
commercial.
You have to tease at the endwhen you return.
You know actually, your mom.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Can I just ask you for our young audience, what
advice would you give to anaspiring filmmaker, particularly
a documentary filmmaker,Because I'm thinking maybe many
young people you know theyaren't interested to get into
the area.
What sort of advice would you?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I mean it's a new world, and when I was coming up
in the 90s and the 00s, I meanthose don't exist anymore
because streaming has changedeverything.
Even as I mentioned commercialbreaks, most people are watching
stuff on streaming and they'remade for streaming and they
don't exist anymore because it'sall subscription based.
So don't follow the path I didin 1996 and it won't get you
anywhere.
I think to anybody who wants towrite a book or make a
(26:27):
documentary produce something,don't wait for someone to give
you the gift of hiring you.
If you've got a short film inyou, shoot it.
If you've got a novel, startwriting it.
The first couple of drafts willbe dodgy and you'll fall on your
face, but people want to seeresults.
I know someone came to me andsaid oh, you know, I want to be
your assistant and no assistantis going to have any credits If
(26:49):
someone has, like, I've beenworking as an assistant editor
in like a shoe store for sixyears and someone said I made
four films.
You know, at home I pick thatkid Because that person is
excited about the business.
That person is already tryingstories out.
Your resume is your work.
Yeah, even at that early levelProduce.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Produce, do something .
Yeah, two sort of relatedquestions here.
The future, first of all.
What's the future for NeilLaird in terms of what you want
to do next?
But also, what's the future doyou think of TV and the kind of
world that you've worked in,given, as you say, the rise of
streaming and the way in which?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And AI and AI, which is a topic, yeah, that you've
worked in.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Given, as you say, the rise of streaming and the
way in which and AI and AI,which is a topic, yeah, for me
it's like I have a few moreyears writing television.
I don't think I need to do thebig, you know, deep dives.
I'm happy to write and dosmaller projects because I've
done so many, but I want tocontinue to write novels too and
I'll finish Troy and have a fewother ideas.
(27:53):
My husband and I want to retiresomewhere with a Mediterranean
sunset view, maybe over a ruin,somewhere, you know, in the
Eastern Mediterranean, andthat's our goal and our plan.
Now.
He's much younger than me, he's10 years younger, so I won't be
anytime soon, but I love towrite and if I can keep doing
some smaller project to keepthat going, then I'll do that
and part of it and that kind ofdovetails with.
(28:15):
The second question istelevision is very dying.
Uh, certainly for people in thein my age, in the 50s, with
ageism, it's like it's adifferent world than when I did
it and less because there's lessshow, entire network.
I lost my job at discoverybecause my entire network
science channel went away.
Like 40 of us got laid off inone day 800 people that got laid
(28:36):
off Other networks, entirenetworks went away.
So that simply means not onlyjust the exec jobs the network
that I had but also that meansless product, less production
and therefore less people needed.
So I all things on LinkedInabout people who you know, who
are sound guys or graphics guysin Hollywood for 20 years and
now they're bagging groceries atTrader Joe's because it's the
(28:58):
only thing they can get.
So it is a very, very toughtime, a time of transition.
I don't know where it's goingto shake out.
It's not going to go back tothe way it was, the halcyon days
, where it was so much, so muchproduction going on in la new
york and london three cities Iwill work in um that people are
gonna have to reinventthemselves.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
A lot of people are we said, we suddenly saw that
and when we visited la thatthere appeared to be a lot of.
We visited first 15 years agoand then this year last year and
it seems to be that almost alot of productions have actually
left Hollywood and a lot offilms were actually shot
overseas yeah, yeah, yeah, Imean everything's changing and
(29:41):
it's like it's a question ofwhere they go and what they make
and I don't even view a tasterchanging, not just streamers.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
But you know I do these four part big series on
Pompeii or whatever, and nowpeople were happy to watch a
10-minute youtube or afour-minute tiktok or whatever
and get their information.
So the younger generationsaren't going towards those
classic blue chip davidattenborough like documentaries,
like they used to um, and I'mnot sure they're going to come
(30:07):
back.
So again, even the art formthat I have spent three decades
in maybe on the way out, with arare exception and we haven't
mentioned what charlotte touchedon, given her own passions, for
it is ai.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Could we have a future?
It's all produced by ai andyeah, I mean the.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know hosts don't go on location anymore, they'll
just get a backdrop of thepyramids.
You know you don't need copyeditors.
You don't eventually probablywant to script writers.
There's so much of that stuff.
The knock on effect is onlybeginning to be seen with my
books.
It's very interesting becauseall my books, of course, written
by Hank, by my human, you knowmy computer, you know my
(30:52):
computer.
But when you go online andstuff, they make sure that the
AI there's no AI in your bookcover.
You haven't done any of thisstuff and it was hard to police.
You can see people are reallysort of circling the wagons and
making sure we try to take careof our own because, particularly
with self publishing, if youyou can crank that stuff out and
people don't care about quality, you can, you know, write six
books a week and get it out, andthat stuff starts to take on.
Write six books a week and getit out, and that stuff starts to
(31:14):
take on again.
The knock-on effect is less andless jobs and less and less
opportunities for creativewriters.
So that world is.
It obviously makes our lifeeasier, but in terms of how we
create and how we gatherinformation and all that stuff
we're only beginning to see.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, so with your comic book, do you think there
will be more?
Okay, so you're on.
The third one is it can youforesee a whole series of of?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
this?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
I don't know I mean, I think, or do you have any
other projects in?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I mean, by the way I had two other books that I
didn't that I try to gettraditional agent for and
couldn't I might go back to oneof those and so, uh,
self-publish those or writesomething else a series.
It's hard to know.
We'll see how well troy doesand we'll also see if I'm still
interested in it and I kill offone of the main characters in
the next book.
So you know, maybe that's theend.
(32:02):
I won't tell you who.
You have to wait till it comesout maybe that's my mind telling
you.
Okay, I I'm getting sick ofthese characters.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So we should mention this third book.
When is it due out, Neil Goodquestion.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm taking off to Italy tomorrow for a few weeks
and do some writing even thoughit's on Troy and then I hop on a
project back here in the States, a TV job.
So I think when that wraps inAugust I'll probably head back
out to the mediterraneansomewhere and finish it so
hopefully early next yearbrilliant and uh yes, yes, a lot
(32:37):
for that, thank you, thank youand the
Speaker 3 (32:39):
final question here.
So what is this?
Something you would have?
What would you have told your21st year old self, or when you
were young?
Is there something you wouldhave told or something you would
have done differently, or?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
good question.
I, you know, I think I mean Ileap before, I look even then,
like with the Sphinx, and thenyou know, maybe I would have
written that book, you know,when Bowie was still alive, you
know, rather than afterwards.
But again, I think I've alreadysaid I think don't wait.
I mean don't be afraid to fail.
We're all so terrified,particularly in this age where
we can get shamed so easily onsocial media.
(33:10):
People can jump on you.
It's not easy, you have to havea thick skin, and so I think
you know, if I told myself thatI said you know, don't wait,
don't wait, just do it and isthere anything else you want to
leave with our viewers?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
and also, how can they get in contact with you if
they would or they can be, ofcourse, buy your books, but is
there any other?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
way they can.
I have a newsletter.
Yeah, my website neolairdcom.
You can sign up for mynewsletter there.
Every couple of months I sendout links and conversations
about both television and mybooks.
And then Amazon has both of mybooks, both the US and UK.
Just type in Neil Laird orPrimetime Travelers or Primetime
Pompeii and they come up.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And let me know what you think if you read the book.
Well, great stuff, let me know.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Absolutely well, thanks ever so much, neil, and
the best of luck for the futurethank you very much.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Thank you very much and thank you for enjoying
another episode of the final cut.
And you know we can fight.
You can follow us here onyoutube or on your podcast host.
Thanks again for tuning in.
Thank you.
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