May 15, 2025 • 58 mins
Have you ever wondered what really goes on behind the scenes of British tabloid journalism? In this captivating episode, we’re joined by Bill Coles, whose 25-year career at publications like The Sun offers a masterclass in the art of the scoop.
Bill takes us from the hallowed halls of Eton to the fast-paced, high-stakes world of Fleet Street. With sharp wit and candid reflection, he recounts how his privileged background initially marked him as an outsider—until Prince William’s enrollment at Eton turned him into The Sun’s secret weapon. His tales, including schoolboy informants (one nicknamed “Agent Orange”), offer a revealing look into a now-banned era of tabloid tactics.
The episode also dives into Bill’s latest novel, Movie Rogue, a deliciously sharp fictional account of a tabloid reporter infiltrating Stanley Kubrick’s enigmatic Eyes Wide Shut film set. Drawing on his real-life experiences as a movie extra alongside stars like Colin Firth and Brooke Shields, Bill blurs the line between fact and fiction with ease. His behind-the-scenes knowledge—like Kubrick making Tom Cruise redo a doorway entrance nearly 100 times—adds rich detail to this cinematic satire.
From newsroom rivalries and royal scandals to a blind date with Ivana Trump, Bill’s stories are as outrageous as they are enlightening. He weighs in on everything from Harry and Meghan (“Fleet Street gold”) to the enduring mystery of Lord Lucan, sharing timeless lessons on what makes stories truly stick.
Follow Bill @williamcoles1 and look out for Movie Rogue, coming this autumn!
Want to learn more about Bill Coles, his books, or his latest adventures?
Connect with him here:
Website: https://www.wcoles.com/
Instagram: @billcolesauthor
Do you want to be a guest on the show email us on cookcharlotte989@gmail.com
#WritingCraft #MediaAndFiction #AuthorInterview #NewBookAlert #CreativeProcess #JournalismToFiction #TheFinalCut #BillColes #MovieRogue #WritingTips #BookLovers #ReadersOfInstagram #WritingCommunity
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Spotlights fade the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Charlotte and John with the final say, breaking
down the screens in their ownway.
This is the Final Cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi, welcome to another episode of the Final Cut
.
Today I'm delighted to welcomea truly remarkable guest, bill
Coos.
He's also known to many readersas William Coos.
With a journalist careerspanning over 25 years, bill has
reported from the front line ofpolitics.
Spending over 25 years, billhas reported from the front line
(01:08):
of politics.
He has also had a key role as aNew York correspondent.
He's also worked as a politicalcorrespondent and the Royal
Reporter, and his work has alsograced the pages of Wall Street
Journal, the Scotsman Prima,baby and more.
But Bill Cole isn't just ajournalist.
(01:29):
He's a prophetic author andmaster storyteller.
He's written 10 novels thatspan the genres from historical
fiction to satire and also tomurder mystery.
Among his most popular work isMr Two Bomb, a gripping tale set
against the backdrop of WorldWar II.
The woman who made women cry,and over the blends motion with
intrigue.
And the well-tempered carrierClavier, which showcases
(01:54):
literary range.
It's also known for itsrazor-sharp wit, with books like
David Cameron's School Days, asatire imaging of the former
Prime Minister's youth, andSpare Hair Handbook, a glamorous
guide-stylist advice fromPrince Harry himself.
He also has written the novelthe Eton Affair and Eton Road,
(02:18):
which dive into the traditionsand secrets of one of Britain's
most iconic schools, which hehimself intended.
While Palace Rogue offers acheeky inside-out look at royal
life, and for those curiousabout the world of tabloid
journalism, his non-fiction bookRed Top being a reporter
ethically, legally and withpanache is a must-read.
(02:38):
Bill's work is fearless, funnyand always thought-provoking.
Whether it's dissecting theethics of journalists, crafting
unforgettable characters, hebrings a unique voice and deep
understanding of British cultureand society.
Please join me in welcoming thebrilliant Bill Coles to find
his final cut.
He's here to talk about hislatest work, movie Rogue.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And my first question is could you tell me more about
Movie Rogue and maybe perhaps abit about your life?
Yes, of course.
Hi John, hi Charlotte, thrilledto be with you both.
So, yes, I used to be ajournalist for quite some time,
cutting my teeth on Fleet Street, and about 15 years ago I
started writing novels andalways in the back of my mind I
had been wanting to do a sort ofrom-com series, but with
(03:41):
certain sort of world that Iknow as a tabloid reporter.
But the problem with a tabloidreporter in fiction is that if
you see a tabloid reporter in abook or on telly or on screen,
they are always awful, they'realways scum suckers who are just
(04:03):
these jackals who are out fornews.
And what I wanted, or what I'vebeen trying to do, is create a
new style of reporter, I mean anew style of yeah, a new style
of rom-com, with obviously thisscum sucking reporter, and he is
a tabloid reporter.
So therefore he is a scumsucker, but he does have one redeeming
(04:27):
quality and that is that he isa matchmaker 20 years ago.
He weaves, he gets into thepalace and he's getting all the
stories and all the pictures,but he does get these sort of
(04:48):
two central characters together.
And so this is the sort ofthing that this reporter is
inserting himself in theseunlikely positions and is
getting all the stories but isspreading love dust everywhere,
and so people fall in love.
And so for the last um eightyears or so I've been a movie
(05:12):
extra.
Being a movie extra is prettygood fun.
You're meeting hundreds ofweird people and you're being
bossed around and occasionallyyou get sea stars in action, and
I'd.
When I started off I thoughtthat it might be useful as a
useful sort of basis for a book,but I didn't quite know how it
(05:33):
was.
Work would work, and then, aboutthree years ago, I realized how
it would work and that would bethat we would insert our son
reporter whose name is Kim, wewould insert him on to the set
(05:57):
of Stanley Kubrick's last film,which was this eye-watering film
called Eyes Wide Shut.
And by that stage Kubrick wasabout 69 and was pretty crazy,
and his films that he'd donebefore had just got longer and
longer and longer.
And this particular one stillhas the all-time record for the
(06:24):
longest continuous movieproduction, which was 400 days
back-to-back production, whichwas 400 days back to back, and
it stars, uh, come crews and histhen wife, nicole, and the uh,
and it's got this searinglygraphic.
Uh, already seen in it, whichis the film itself, is middling,
uh, but the the audio scene islike that is something else and
(06:46):
uh, so this is the audio sceneis like that is something else,
and so this scene took months tofilm and this is the scene that
this Sun reporter has insertedhimself into.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So that's the story of Movie Rogue.
Absolutely fascinating, bill,and you'll see that we're all
decked out in our red tops today, by the way, in your honour,
honour with the newspaper.
I'm flattered but absolutelyfascinating.
Fascinating to learn that it'sabout Eyes Wide Shut, a movie
that I know reasonably well.
I've seen quite a few times.
I think I have it on DVDsomewhere.
(07:18):
But can I ask you've been areal movie extra, so what movies
have you been on actually realmovies that you've been a real
movie extra?
So what movies have you been onactually real movies that
you've been?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
involved with.
Let me see, I started off aboutseven years ago with Fast and
Furious 9, which cost 300million to make, and they were
filming in Edinburgh for about amonth and I was doing the same.
I was just a guy walking downthe street with my mate and this
(07:52):
particular scene they werefilming for about three days
from myriad angles and it tookon screen.
It lasted about 30 seconds andI was on for about half a second
.
So that was that one.
And then let me see, quiterecently I was in a TV series
(08:14):
with called Lockerbie, withColin Firth and I was playing
the part of a scum, suckingreporter at the Hague when the
Lockerbie trial happened about25 years ago, and with Brooke
Shields in A Castle forChristmas an absolute dross film
(08:39):
, but it does have a big danceat the end in which I managed to
clout Brooke Shields when wewere having a hoedown.
Yeah, so being a movie extra isyeah, it's great fun.
You're not being paid much, butyou know you're meeting all
these weird characters.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
What did you bring then from your knowledge of the
real movie world into the novel,because I presume you weren't
on the set of Eyes Wide Shut 25years ago?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
No, I wasn't, though.
As you can imagine, a number ofreporters intermittently tried
to get in on sets and getpictures and all that sort of
stuff.
And there was a stunt reporter.
He was a showbiz hack calledSean Hall, and he swore blind to
me that not only did he getonto the set of Eyes Wide Shut
(09:32):
for this damn orgy at ElvtonHall, but that he became friends
with or, yeah, friends, he saidwith Tom Cruise.
And so that is the.
That's the sort of basis forthe story, though there are some
large caveats to that, in thatSean could have been telling the
(09:54):
truth, but you know he was.
He was steeped in showbizjournalism and so he was he.
He was quite capable of makingthings up.
Anyway, unfortunately Sean isnow dead, so we will never know.
Um, but what, what I?
What you get from being a, anactual extra is you get all the
(10:19):
detail which you're not going tosee otherwise, and and you know
, of course you could read upabout being an extra and the
rest of it.
But I much prefer these days tohave to do primary research and
get stuck in and immerse myselfin whatever the subject is, and
(10:39):
so that you know you aregetting a flavor of the
conversations they're having andyou're seeing all these weirdos
.
There are a lot of veryeccentric people and you're
getting a real flavor of whatit's like in the canteens and
what you're doing in yourdowntime and the rest of it.
So yeah, some writers, somewriters.
(11:02):
They like to do their researchby just reading tons of books,
but if at all possible, I liketo get stuck in.
It's much more fun.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And did any real-life events personality inspire this
character in movie route?
I assume it's a continuation ofKim's story perhaps, or do you
have a show?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yes, it is.
So you've got this, you've gotthis sun hack Kim, and he is
inserting himself in thesevarious weird places that are
quite interesting and some ofthe stories are, are true, um,
(11:50):
and I like to, I like to makestuff up and I like to, uh,
blend it in with real stuff.
So, as you can imagine, forthis I ate every single book I
could on kubrick and quite a fewon Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman
, but mainly I was eating stuffon Kubrick, who was just this
(12:12):
complete despot, and hegenerally partnered up with
Warner Bros and because hisfilms always made money and
always came in under budget bythe end, he had complete power.
And so he got Tom Cruise andNicole Kidman to sign up this
(12:38):
unbelievable contract, and itwas a contract without end.
Normally, if you're signing amovie contract, you know you'll
agree to work on the project forwhatever 100 days might be
about the norm for a movie.
But they say, no, we will workwith you for just as long as it
takes.
And what Kubrick liked to do wasbreak his stars down, and the
(13:04):
way he would do it was withrepeated takes.
And, um he, so you do your take, and it would be perfectly
confident, because you know, tomcruise is a pretty confident
actor and he'd just sit thereand say do it again, and he kept
it.
He'd just say do it again, doit again, do it again and, uh,
(13:24):
memor, he got Tom Cruise to walkthrough a doorway 95 times and
for some people, like ShelleyDuvall who was on in the Shining
, he completely broke her at onecrucial scene in the Shining.
He got her doing the same thingabout 130 times, anyway.
(13:51):
So these are some of thestranger things about Kubrick
that I like to include.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, so that feeds itself into the novel and
without giving away, obviously,the entire plot of the new novel
, how how does does Kim inserthimself into this very, very
peculiar scenario?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, kubrick was an immensely secretive guy.
What had happened was that he'ddone Full Metal Jacket and
everyone had known, which isabout Vietnam, and it had gone
(14:42):
on a really long time, as usualfor Kubrick.
But meanwhile another film cameout at much less money and much
less time, platoon by OliverStone, and it was a similar kind
of Vietnam story and it sweptthe board.
Sort of best picture and bestdirector must have been a joker
for him.
And so, after Full Metal Jacket, he decided to be.
(15:06):
He was ultra secretive aboutall his uh projects, most
especially eyes wide shut.
So nobody knew what it wasbased on, nobody knew the name
of the film and very few peopleknew the story at all, apart
apart from, I guess, tom Cruiseand a few others.
Certainly no one knew that itwas based on this weird book by
(15:29):
a guy who I'd never heard ofcalled Arthur Schnitzler.
It's a pretty boring book too,but anyway, kubrick was obsessed
with it.
Um, and what happens in thestory is that, uh, this this sun
reporter um gets wind of ofthis film and that tom cruise is
(15:51):
in it and he he does it by.
He's in just in the uhlavatories in this club, in a
cubicle and he overhears peopletalking at the urinals and this
happened a couple of times onthe Sun when stories were
overheard, you know, peoplechatting at the urinals and
(16:12):
these pearls would slip.
Anyway, the Sun reporter getsto hear this and then is duffed
up by the producer, and so thenhe is on a mission to insert
himself on the set and to sortof to, you know, put two fingers
up to the producer, and so theway he does it is that he, like
(16:34):
me, joins a number of extrasagencies, and if you want to be
an extra, you want to join anextras agency, and so there are
quite a lot of them, but themain one in Scotland is the BBB
Talent Agency, and they do meproud.
So that's how he does it andthat's how you get jobs if you
(16:55):
want to be an extra.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Sounds good.
I was just always wondering isthere any journalist or author
that has inspired you in yourwork?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
There are a number of hacks who have.
Journalists are generally notthat good at writing novels.
The reason is that you've gotto make you think you can really
churn out the words.
But moving from journalism,which hopefully is largely
(17:32):
fact-based, to novels is you aretaking a giant leap and it
takes some time to learn thisentirely new skill.
And I'm afraid I'm up therewith the writer, ian Banks, who
said, memorably and correctlythe first million words you
(17:53):
write are shit.
But there are two.
Well, there are many journalistswho have made this giant leap
from journalism to fiction,primarily Jilly Cooper.
Dame Jilly Cooper, outstandingwith her writer series.
Bernard Cornwall, who isbrilliant with historical
(18:18):
fiction, and Robert Harris, whoused to be the political editor
of the Sunday Times for a whileand has made this, has now
become a giant of fiction.
And he, like he, well, I'mslightly trying to emulate him
in that he takes a fact and hewill then turn it into great
(18:41):
fiction.
And so with with palace rogue,which is based on the story of
this uh, tabloid hack becoming apalace footman, uh, he wasn't
allowed to the actual umjournalist was not allowed to
write about anymore because ofall the injunctions.
So I've just taken the storyand I have run with it and that
(19:02):
is uh yeah.
So the number of great hackswho've done great books and
there are a number who havefailed abysmally and they
suddenly they think it's goingto be a great novel.
And then, as Giles Corrandiscovered, no mate, it's a
different piece of cheese ofcheese.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I believe the name of that Mirror journalist was Ryan
Parry, that's right.
And it was the Daily Mirror.
He smuggled his way in to be afootman for the Royals, faking
(19:42):
his CV.
And what have you Did?
You consult Ryan Parry in termsof your research, or is he
completely injuncted and is?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
not able to say a word about it.
I tried to get in touch withRyan, but I think he had a
relative who had health problems.
But I didn't really need Ryan.
I mean, I read all his stories,such as after he'd finished
being a footman, the Mirror rantwo days worth of stories and
(20:08):
and then they were injuncted andso he's never been able to
write another word about it andhe had to hand over all his
pictures.
But I didn't really need to.
I mean, you know, once you'vegot the, the detail of what he's
got and the detail of life inthe palace, and then you can,
you know, you can make it all up.
Though one thing that I foundquite amusing was obviously I've
(20:32):
made up a lot of characters,but I wasn't going to start
making up royals' names.
You know, like the Queen has gotto be the Queen and Prince
Andrew has got to be PrinceAndrew, and there was a whole
load of great detail aboutPrince Andrew's apartment which
(20:55):
was just simply eye-watering,particularly his teddies.
Watering, uh, particularly histeddies.
He used to have about well,maybe he still does, I don't
know he used to have about 70teddies which, uh, in the
daytime had to be all put inlines on his bed, on this big
double bed, and so you've gotabout six down the bottom, and
(21:17):
then another six getting biggerand bigger and bigger until you
got the big ones on the top, andthen two beds, either, two
bears either side of the thing,and so that's that.
But before he goes to bed, allthe bears have to be transferred
to their special position inthe fireplace and on the
mantelpiece, and he'd goabsolutely bloody spare, uh, if
(21:41):
the maid had put the damnteddies in the wrong position.
And it's just like crazy.
Look, if you want to, you know,muck around lining up your
teddies, mate, then knockyourself out.
But you don't get a maid to dosomething like that, you know,
when you're in your 40s or 50s,and so there, there were various
(22:02):
other stupid stories like that,and he was very he's teetotal,
but he was very keen on datingstars who would come over sort
of goggle-eyed, includingCaprice, and anyway, I was about
halfway through the story and Ihadn't quite worked out the
ending, but I suddenly had arevelation that li libel, as you
(22:25):
know, is damaging somebody'sreputation and, uh, prince
Andrew can no longer be libeled.
Short of saying he is a sexkiller, you cannot destroy him
his reputation any further so soI tucked in with that one, and
he has a suitably horrificending.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Brilliant.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
This is not your first time writing about the
royal family.
You wrote a royal.
You were a royal reporter forthe Sun.
How did you find that?
And I know you wrote about whenHarry and William was at Eton,
etc.
How did you find writing aboutthe Royal family?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
The Royals were a great gig.
And I, as you said, am an OldEtonian, and having been to
Eaton puts a lot of people'sbacks up.
Some weirdos might be slightlyimpressed oh, you're an Old,
eton puts a lot of people'sbacks up.
Some weirdos might be slightlyimpressed, oh, you're an old
Etonian.
(23:28):
But most people, particularlyeditors, think loser, and you're
sort of 50 points down beforeyou know, entitled wanker sort
of thing.
You're 50 points down beforeyou start, and that particularly
goes for tabloid editors.
Who is this posh knob is thesort of general availing
(23:51):
attitude.
And so I'd been a journalistfor about six years and had uh
been cutting my teeth for abouta year, shifting on the sun
that's freelancing, and then Ihad this remarkable lucky break
prince william is going to myold school.
And then suddenly, uh suddenly,all these doors opened for me.
(24:15):
Because what happened whenprince william went to eton was
that the press did a deal withBuckingham Palace that we were
not allowed to run any storiesat all about Prince William
while he was at the school, sothat he could fail all his exams
and be given detentions withouthaving every single detail
(24:39):
appearing in the paper.
But what then happened wasthere was still this limitless
appetite for stories about Eton.
So we just started writing aboutall his posh friends and all
these scrapes they got into andvery quickly the boys were
(25:01):
calling in with stories and Iwas obviously the guy, their
sort of handler, and I wasgiving them thousands and
thousands of pounds in cash forthese stories.
And the best I had quite anumber of tipsters, but the best
by far was this kid who wascalled agent orange, and that is
(25:27):
the the sort of uh kid in uhwho's the star of uh Eaton road.
Is this, this guy called agentorange.
Um, and bizarrely, uh it mightuh tickle you to know that uh,
since then the the Ipsos, isthat the press standards thing?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, Ipsos is the sort of self-regulatory one,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, they have now introduced,thanks to my antics about 25,
30 years ago, 25, 30 years ago,they have brought in a new rule
that you are now no longerallowed to pay minors.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Ah well, fame at last .
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Fame at last, yes, but I think they got wise to the
fact, because I was a studentwhen William was at St Andrews
instead, and I think by thenthey had kind of even more
strict regulation and theyreally struggled to get anything
out.
I think after that.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So how did an old Etonian Bill find his way into
red-top journalism in the firstplace?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, I got a spectacularly good 2.2 degree in
theology from Bristol and Iwent traveling for a couple of
years and then I was working ina hotel as a waiter for some
time and my mum was sick todeath of this prodigy, wasting
away his time at this hotel inDorset, and he paid what was
(27:04):
then quite a lot of money about400 quid for me to take
vocational guidance and answerall these questions, do a few
tests, do an interview, and atthe end of it they said you
should be a reporter, which isfunny enough.
A number of my parents' friendshad hopefully suggested this
too.
And anyway, it took me aboutthree months to get a job on a
(27:27):
paper and when I went to MissSpruill's Tertiary College,
learning shorthand and typing,and then I started as an
indentured reporter.
Indentures, I don't know ifthey have such things now, but
that meant that you had to stayat the paper for about two, two
and a half years until you werequalified, and this was a paper
(27:48):
in CERN testicle, the WilsonGloss standard, and uh, anyway,
to my astonishment, I discoveredthat, uh, I quite liked it and
that I was, that I was okay atit, and after about two years I
was getting hungrier and I didhanker to get onto the Sun,
(28:12):
which 30 years ago was quite abig paper.
It was the biggest sellingEnglish language daily in the
country, in the world actually,English language.
On a good day it would sell 5million papers, which is a
readership of about 12, 13million, so that's about a fifth
(28:35):
of the country.
So it used to have astonishingclout.
It doesn't now, but it did thenand it was quite a cheeky paper
.
And so then I got a job onevening paper and then on an
agency and then I startedshifting at the sun and I
thought after six years as ahack that I was pretty red hot.
(28:57):
And then suddenly working atthe sun, I realized it's like
I'm in the foothills and therewas so much more to learn.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It was great and, uh, you know, uh, how do you think
journalism has changed now?
What?
What do you think the biggestchanges are in the 25th year of
journalism since you started?
It's a sun, and up to now Imean well for you the the main
(29:29):
thing is obviously that uh,newspapers are dead in the water
.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
They're trying to come up with ways of making
papers play, you know, withpaywalls and all the rest, but
for local journalism, I mean,you know, the Wilson Gloss
Standard in San Francisco usedto have maybe eight reporters in
the head office and, you know,know, district reporters all
(29:58):
over the place.
Now I'd be surprised if theygot three or four.
So there's no money.
How you're going to get moneyout of local journalism is going
to be tricky.
Of course.
In 20 years time there'llprobably be about three big
national papers left, the, thecream of the crop, but they've
(30:19):
all got problems.
But one beautiful thing has notchanged and that is being a
reporter and the business ofbeing a reporter, and that is
extracting stories, your storyout of you.
That has not changed and it'spretty much the same as it's
(30:45):
been since newspapers first cameinto existence.
It doesn't matter how the newsis transmitted.
Whether it's on the radio ortelly or the internet or a
little chip that has beenplanted into your head, you will
(31:13):
still always need a reporterwho will come up to you.
Same about getting people onside, charming them and
extracting their story.
That is the skill of a reporterand takes a long time to get.
So yeah, in that respect that'sthe same as it's ever been.
I suspect that's the same asit's ever been.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, but it's just the question of how to monetize
it in the future, as you say.
But it does look as if you inthe 80s and the 90s were kind of
in that golden age of tabloidjournalism where there was a lot
of money around.
And can I just take you throughsome of the stories that have
attached to you as a tabloidjournalist that I came across
while researching some of thestories that have attached to
(31:58):
you as a tabloid journalist thatI came across while researching
some of your books?
For example, when you were inNew York, you had a blind date
with Ivana Trump.
Can you tell us about that?
And, more to the point, wasDonald informed?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Ivana had split up with Donald Trump by then In 97,
98, donald was just thisproperty developer I'm not sure
he was even doing the Apprenticethen and Ivana was his first
wife and she memorably saidafter splitting with Donald
(32:32):
don't get mad, get everything,don't get mad, get everything.
And she was promoting a thingby might have been mcdonald's,
might have been kentucky friedchicken called a tower burger.
And so the sun somehow got onside with her and I'm I go along
(32:56):
in this limo, pick her up andwe're eating tower burgers
together.
So the whole thing wascompletely stunted up.
Yeah, she was really nice, shewas charming and little did I
know she had a thing for, uh,younger men.
Her sort of uh, mixed boyfriendor three were all younger than
me.
So maybe I could have had achance, but regrettably I was
(33:18):
not really professional and justdid the story.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Is there any other one of these characters you met
as a journalist or somecharismatic journalist?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, one of the great journalists was a guy
called John Kay.
John Kay was the chief reporterof the Sun and had won Scoop of
the Year and Journalist of theYear, and he was a really good
journalist and, unlike me,towards the end I lost the
hunger as a reporter.
(33:53):
And if you've lost the hunger,if you couldn't care less about
the news and you're thinkingit's all the same and it's just
various confected showbizbollocks involving celebrities
and it's all pretty meaningless,then you've got to get out of
it.
You can't really be a reporteranymore.
But John Kay, he had had abreakdown and he had killed his
(34:23):
first wife and it's one of these, it was one of these completely
taboo subjects that you couldnever, ever, ever talk about.
I sat next to him for someyears and we played tennis
together and sort of go ondouble dates, me with my
(34:43):
girlfriend and him with hissecond wife, mercedes, and we
were pretty good mates and Ilearned from him the silver
tongue, which is how to work atelephone.
But you could never say to himwhat the hell happened, how,
because what, well, what?
I'll tell you what happened.
It's all, it's all in thepapers.
He um was the son's uh, industrycorrespondent and went along to
(35:07):
the tuc, had a breakdown.
And uh leaves in sort ofdisgrace and goes back to his
first wife, who was Japanese,and said that's it, my career's
over, I'm going to kill myself.
And she says, well, you can'tdo that because I can't go back
home.
And he says, you're right,we'll do a double.
(35:30):
And he then drowns her in thebath and then tries to kill
himself but does not succeed.
And um, so he was, I think,eventually convicted of
manslaughter and spent uh two orthree years in fran barnett,
which is a mental lunatic asylum, and then he came out and just
(35:55):
breezed back into the sun, withthe proviso that he would never
leave the office for a story,because if you're on a story
when you're out in the field,that's where the stress is.
So when the big storieshappened, he would be like this
black spider weaving all the,all these strands, hundreds of
strands of copy in, and he wouldturn them into the splashes.
(36:17):
Anyway, he was a greatjournalist.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
So do you think that his experiences turned him into
this great journalist, or had healready been that before?
Speaker 1 (36:32):
He was a brilliant journalist in his own right, but
he realised after that that hewas never going to cut it in the
field, as it were, I mean.
And so what he did was heembedded himself with a whole
load of contacts, particularlyin the MOD and the cops, but
mainly the Ministry of Defense,and the cops, but mainly the
(36:53):
Ministry of Defence, and theywould be giving him any tasty
stories that had come up.
For his son, a tasty storywould be any military officer
sleeping with any other officeror somebody in the other ranks.
And he got scoop after scoopwith this, but unfortunately he
(37:18):
was completely thrown under thebus.
What happened was that therewas the whole phone hacking saga
and then Rupert Murdoch, Iguess, decided that he wanted a
completely clean slate andcalled in the cops to check for
(37:38):
anything else.
And at one stage there were over100 cops in the News
International offices goingthrough all these old emails and
what they would?
It was called Operation Elvedenand what they were particularly
looking for was hacks givingmoney to cops and civil servants
(37:59):
, um which there was a lot ofmoney slopping around, and these
civil servants and these policeofficers were getting thousands
and they the about 25 of themwere charged with uh bribing
cops and civil servants.
But the hacks defences weregiving money to whistleblowers
(38:23):
and John had this hanging overhim for two years and then there
was finally a trial and all thehacks got off, apart from one
who idiotically pleaded guilty,but he was eventually cleared.
So all the hacks got off but itcompletely broke John and he
(38:44):
lost it.
He never went back to thenewsroom and he was dead shortly
thereafter.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
How do you think the phone hacking scandal has
changed journalism?
Do you think there arepractices today?
I mean, some of it is a loteasier today.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I mean, in a way, I'm sure it's still going on.
I wouldn't know.
I'd say one of the big onesthat journalists would be using
is locating people, Because nowif you've got a mobile phone,
(39:22):
the police can locate you withina few yards and I would be
surprised if hacks weren'tsomehow tapping into this
service to locate people.
But as for you know, the newsof the world used to quite fancy
(39:42):
going through medical recordsabout 30 years ago.
These days, that would be muchin this sort of climate, that
would be you couldn't really doit.
I mean, the fact is that KingCharles and the Princess of
Wales both have cancer and therehas been not a single squeak in
(40:03):
any of the mainstream pressabout what sort of cancer
they've had, which is amazingthat it hasn't come out.
But the press, in this currentclimate, can't print that
information, Though I guess onthe net there's a lot of
speculation, but no one wouldtouch it.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
That does raise an interesting issue is that, in
recent years, what we've tendedto see is newspapers in the UK
not wanting to run a story, butthe information somehow leaking
out somehow, I say leaking outon Twitter, or, as we now call
it, x.
So are you saying, though, thatthat information about the
royals is not circulating on X,or has it leaked out in that way
(40:48):
?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I don't think that many people know just a few
doctors and maybe the very, veryclose members of the family,
certainly not Harry or Meghan,because I think we know what
they would have done with theinformation.
They'd have called up theirbuddy, omid Scobie.
Yeah, it's true, charles andparticularly the Princess of
(41:14):
Wales, are now sacred cows, andyou would be you would not be
want to be the newspaperbreaking that story.
Sometimes, what the mail usedto do this was such a funny.
They'd have this tasty storythat they wanted to tuck into
(41:37):
because their readers would, youknow, want to be of interest to
the readers, and what they thendo is get some other paper to
print it, like the sun or themirror or maybe the star, and
then they could pile in with allthe detail and have confected
outrage at what's been done withthis story and how it's been
printed in the first place.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Very daily mail.
Yeah, yeah, Can I ask?
I mean, you don't have toanswer if you want, but when you
wrote the Spare Hair, do younow wish that you hadn't written
that story?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I wish I had written that story.
No, the Sparrow Handbook was aI would say, a jokey little
guide.
It was about 12 years ago andKate, prince George, had been
born and Kate was pregnant withanother kid, and so we didn't
(42:38):
know whether it was going to bea boy or a girl, but it was just
at the time.
Uh, prince harry's advice tothis spare air, um, didn't
really sell very well, but itwas a, it was a fun idea.
And boy have have we beensuperseded by events, um, but it
was fun.
Yeah, it was just.
It was just, uh, me channelingprince harry, though I would
(43:00):
never have believed, it seems tome.
What's so funny about princeharry and megan is they're all
into their privacy and, you know, megan disowned her father
because he incompetently I meanhe doesn't hasn't got the first
clue about the press.
He incompetently I mean hedoesn't got the first clue about
the press he incompetently gotgoing with uh photographer and
(43:24):
uh staged some shots with him inthe sort of, with this stupid
belief that, uh, the press wouldthen go away.
And this was the excuse thatMeghan needed not to deal with
her father ever again, or indeedany of her siblings.
But now what the hell has Harryjust done with his book and all
(43:45):
his interviews, if not exactlythe same and times 10?
But you know the great thing?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Sorry, I was just going to say you don't think
that your book was called theSpare Air.
You don't think that maybeHarry took the title, maybe had
a look at your book and sort ofthought that's a good title for
my book.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
You're welcome to it, Harry.
I'm flattered that you want it.
But what amazes me most aboutHarry and Meghan is they are the
best thing ever for FleetStreet and journalists, because
soap operas and tabloidnewspapers love friction.
(44:32):
And without the goddamnfriction there is no story.
All you've got is prettypictures of the Princess of
Wales planting a tree or openinga hospital, and that isn't a
story.
What we want is friction.
And you know, for a long timeit was just Prince Andrew being
(44:54):
a monster, but that's not reallya story.
That's not friction really,it's just him being an
incompetent idiot.
But with Harry and Meghan, youhave got friction like nothing
else and it's never going away.
And you've got this wholebizarre thing about the cousins
never meeting up.
So, yeah, Fleet Street shouldbe getting down on their knees
(45:18):
and saying thank you to Meghanand Harry for what they have
done for newspaper sales.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
I'm quite surprised that they are not trying to
resolve this, because I think Imean we were out in LA last year
and I think the industry thereis struggling a bit, so I'm
surprised they're not trying toreclaim, you know, trying to
kind of make up with the palace,but so, but now.
(45:51):
So after this, then where areyou heading next?
Where do you think, after MovieRogue?
When is it coming out?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Movie Rogue is coming out in the autumn.
I am just editing it up as wespeak.
And, yes, currently I am theworld's expert on Stanley, this
nutcase called Stanley Kubrick,and indeed Eyes Wide Shut.
I might even have watched thatfilm more than you have, john.
(46:20):
Oh, I could believe that soyeah, on with the next novel.
I'm not quite sure what it'sgoing to be, but it will have
the name Rogue in the titlebecause, yeah, if you're writing
(46:41):
a book you want to make sureit's part of a series.
The first book is unlikely togo, but by the third or fourth,
hopefully, you'll start to getsome traction.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So it will be another Rogue.
Yeah, another Rogue.
Well, the best of luck withthat.
Before we let you go, can I askyou because I have an interest
in it as well about one ofhistory's most famous rogues
that you've written?
Speaker 1 (47:05):
about.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Lord Lucan, lucky Lord Lucan, lucky Lord Lucan,
which is the same kind offictionalised memoir as you've
done with, I think, prince Harryand also actually, I believe,
simon Cowell.
So what's your latest take onLord Lucan?
There was a documentary, Ithink about a year ago, in which
the nanny, sandra Rivett's son,claimed to have tracked down
(47:26):
Lord Lucan to Australia, but Ibelieve that was quickly
debunked.
But what's your own take onthat?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
The Lord Lucan story is, for any aspiring hack, this
great white whale of anexclusive.
It is this massive story thathas been out there for 50 years
and for any hack who can crackit, who can genuinely crack it,
(47:55):
what happened to this guy?
They will have fame andimmortality will be assured them
, and it's it is.
And the beautiful thing is thatwe all know this story is out
there.
Um, so, the story about lordlucan for and most people under
the age of 40 have not heard ofhim, but it's a great story.
(48:15):
Uh, it happened about 50 yearsago.
Lord Lucan was this very richearl, seventh earl of Lucan, who
would have then been worthabout six million pounds and
who'd managed to gamble the lotaway.
He was estranged from his wife,veronica, and had three
children.
He moved out of the familyhouse and in 1974, he comes up
(48:38):
with this hatches, thisbrilliant plan to kill his wife
and drop her body off in thechannel.
And we can't be sure whathappened on this November 9,
1974, but the best bet is thathe got the wrong woman.
It might have been somebodyelse.
He got the wrong woman.
(49:03):
It might have been somebodyelse, but unfortunately his
wife's nanny, sandra Rivettchanged her night off and so,
instead of being away at thecinema, was back home and Lord
Lucan was down in the basementof this house in Belgravia.
He'd unscrewed the kitchenlight bulb and this petite woman
trots down the stairs and heattacks her with this piece of
(49:25):
lead piping, hits her five orsix times over the head and
kills her, and then discoversthat he's got the wrong woman.
It's not his petite wife, it isSandra Rivett wife, it is
Sandra Rivett.
And then, 15 minutes later,veronica, the wife, comes down
(49:45):
the stairs saying Sandra, sandra, where are you?
And uh, lucan attacks her onthe stairs and they're fighting
and he managed to hit her atonce or twice over the head, but
she knees him in the groin hardand that's him out.
And then they, they're bothsitting on the stairs having
this uh odd conversation and heclaimed that there'd been a
(50:06):
burglar in the basement and heconfronted the guy.
But that doesn't really holdwater.
And then he says well, I'm justgoing off to wash my hands.
And uh, so he goes upstairs towash his hands and Veronica, the
wife, takes her chance and runsout the house screaming murder,
murder, and goes to thiswonderful pub in Belgravia, the
(50:27):
Plumber's Arms well worth avisit if you are a hag.
And now they've got Lucan alethere and I'm all.
Lucan then has about twominutes to get out of the house
before the hue and cry starts.
And he he's just going down thestairs and his daughter comes
(50:52):
to him and says what's happening, daddy?
And he says nothing.
Go back to bed.
And that, as as we know, is thelast time he ever spoke to any
of his children.
His getaway car was discovereda couple of days later in New
Haven, which is a port, and hehas never been seen or heard of
(51:13):
since.
And so, as I say, for any hackwho can discover what happened
to him, it's a great, it's agreat, great story.
And so for a long time on FleetStreet there would be these
periodic hunts off around theworld.
They all charged to Africa orAustralia or you name it.
The hacks were there and thepolice were there, but nothing
(51:36):
really held water.
And anyway, I was telling.
About 15 years ago, I wastelling my publisher about this
story.
He didn't really know the LordLucan story and I said to him
hey, wouldn't it be great if wecould find Lord Lucan?
And then the penny dropped, Idon't have to find Lord Lucan
because I can just make it allup, and so that's what this is.
(51:57):
This is the Lord Lucan, mystories, my stories, the old
diaries edited by me.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
So what do you think, then, about the real case?
I mean, there has beensightings in australia, south
africa, um, some um stories thatmaybe, um, the children in
later years were flown out toAfrica to observe their father
from a distance.
Or do you think he's dead, thathe just fell off the ferry?
(52:27):
That's the family claim.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, the family and all of Lucan's friends, all of
that have all been saying thesame thing for the last 50 years
, and that is he killed himself.
Yeah, couldn't take the shame,he couldn't take the ignominy.
You know, he bought his lastthrow of the dice and he had no
(52:51):
option but to kill himself.
But there is no actual evidencefor him having killed himself.
The only evidence is that hehasn't been seen.
But generally, if you want tokill yourself, you just kill
yourself.
You're not looking to and doaway with your body as well.
Um, so that's on the one side,and they were the family were
(53:16):
slightly pissed off with me fora while, but now they've piped
down because I've just beenusing it for yet more publicity,
because we love friction, but Iwas leading the charge saying,
well, hang on, the only evidencethat he's dead is that we
haven't seen him and he couldeasily have got away.
(53:36):
And the fact is that Lucan hadthese two very rich, very
unscrupulous friends calledJimmy Goldsmith and John
Aspinall, and these guys had alot of money and, crucially,
they had mob contacts and theseguys could have easily got Lucan
(53:57):
out of the country.
Have easily got Lucan out ofthe country.
And once you've got him out ofthe country, well, you give him
a I mean, goldsmith was probablyworth hundreds of millions you
give him a few million to sorthimself out with a new life.
And so occasionally there arelittle little clues that Lucan
might have got away His watchturned up at a South African
(54:21):
pawnbroker's and, as you say,john, his children would
occasionally go out on safari,paid for by John Aspinall, and
apparently Lucan would besitting in a bush watching them
from afar.
And so there are little thingslike this, and the latest one is
that Sandra Rivett, the nannywho was murdered, she had a son
(54:46):
who was adopted and he found outcomparatively recently that his
mother was Sandra Rivett andthat she'd been murdered.
And so this guy, neil Berryman,has been on a quest now to find
Lord Lucan much like us, thoughprobably not with as much
drinking involved, and he soundsslightly obsessive about it and
(55:09):
he unbelievably got the BBC tomake a three parter on his on
his quest, parter on his on hisquest, um, and he thought that
he had tracked lord lucan downto, uh, australia, where lucan
was apparently a retiredbuddhist monk, uh, and it amazes
(55:34):
me that this was turned into athree-parter, because the both
the police and the Australianpolice were quizzed about it and
they said we have no interestin this man and that generally
means it is not Lord Lucan Voila.
So yeah, the beautiful thingabout the Lucan story is that
(55:54):
your guess is as good as anybodyelse's.
There's very few actualconcrete facts to go on.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Yeah, yeah, agreed.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Okay, well, and the final question to you is what
would you say to your21st-year-old self and maybe,
what would you have donedifferently If you could go back
in time?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Buy Apple and Microsoft.
I mean this sort of idea ofchanging things in your life.
You know the whole thingstrings together and without one
link in the chain the wholething can can change.
(56:41):
And you know, I'm, I've got,I'm very happily married, I've
got a couple of kids, and youknow.
So, you know, you know you youalter one thing and, um, yeah,
you can change everything.
Uh, so I would, yeah, buyingapple and microsoft.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Yeah, stick with those ones and uh, and is there
anything else you want to tellour listener, or and how can
they get in touch with you more?
Speaker 1 (57:09):
and where can they get out of the book?
Oh well, the all my books areon amazon and, um, uh yeah,
william cole's one is my Twitterthing.
I've now got in tow with thisgreat young lad I'm not very
good with the internet, but heis and so we are now producing a
ton of quirky little videos totry and flog the books, because
(57:33):
these days, if you are a writer,it's not enough to have written
a pretty good book.
That is helpful to becoming abestseller, though by no means
essential.
But if you want it to become abestseller, then route one is to
get it turned into telly or amovie, and route two is the
(57:54):
Internet and seeing if you canturn yourself into a little
internet star.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Well all I would say, Bill, is thank you very much
for your interview today andyou've been a real internet star
for us and it's been absolutelyfascinating talking to you.
And good luck with the new book, Movie Rogue, and these little
side internet projects, videoprojects.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
Well, thank you so much.
What a pleasure being with you.
Speaker 3 (58:23):
Thank you very much for being here and thanks also
to our listener.
And listen to our channel andplease subscribe and see you
next week.
Spotlights fade the curtains rise, new stories
waiting behind our eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Charlotte and John with the final say, breaking
down the screens in their ownway.
This is the Final Cut, wherethe real reviews ignite.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi, welcome to another episode of the Final Cut
.
Today I'm delighted to welcomea truly remarkable guest, bill
Coos.
He's also known to many readersas William Coos.
With a journalist careerspanning over 25 years, bill has
reported from the front line ofpolitics.
Spending over 25 years, billhas reported from the front line
(01:08):
of politics.
He has also had a key role as aNew York correspondent.
He's also worked as a politicalcorrespondent and the Royal
Reporter, and his work has alsograced the pages of Wall Street
Journal, the Scotsman Prima,baby and more.
But Bill Cole isn't just ajournalist.
(01:29):
He's a prophetic author andmaster storyteller.
He's written 10 novels thatspan the genres from historical
fiction to satire and also tomurder mystery.
Among his most popular work isMr Two Bomb, a gripping tale set
against the backdrop of WorldWar II.
The woman who made women cry,and over the blends motion with
intrigue.
And the well-tempered carrierClavier, which showcases
(01:54):
literary range.
It's also known for itsrazor-sharp wit, with books like
David Cameron's School Days, asatire imaging of the former
Prime Minister's youth, andSpare Hair Handbook, a glamorous
guide-stylist advice fromPrince Harry himself.
He also has written the novelthe Eton Affair and Eton Road,
(02:18):
which dive into the traditionsand secrets of one of Britain's
most iconic schools, which hehimself intended.
While Palace Rogue offers acheeky inside-out look at royal
life, and for those curiousabout the world of tabloid
journalism, his non-fiction bookRed Top being a reporter
ethically, legally and withpanache is a must-read.
(02:38):
Bill's work is fearless, funnyand always thought-provoking.
Whether it's dissecting theethics of journalists, crafting
unforgettable characters, hebrings a unique voice and deep
understanding of British cultureand society.
Please join me in welcoming thebrilliant Bill Coles to find
his final cut.
He's here to talk about hislatest work, movie Rogue.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And my first question is could you tell me more about
Movie Rogue and maybe perhaps abit about your life?
Yes, of course.
Hi John, hi Charlotte, thrilledto be with you both.
So, yes, I used to be ajournalist for quite some time,
cutting my teeth on Fleet Street, and about 15 years ago I
started writing novels andalways in the back of my mind I
had been wanting to do a sort ofrom-com series, but with
(03:41):
certain sort of world that Iknow as a tabloid reporter.
But the problem with a tabloidreporter in fiction is that if
you see a tabloid reporter in abook or on telly or on screen,
they are always awful, they'realways scum suckers who are just
(04:03):
these jackals who are out fornews.
And what I wanted, or what I'vebeen trying to do, is create a
new style of reporter, I mean anew style of yeah, a new style
of rom-com, with obviously thisscum sucking reporter, and he is
a tabloid reporter.
So therefore he is a scumsucker, but he does have one redeeming
(04:27):
quality and that is that he isa matchmaker 20 years ago.
He weaves, he gets into thepalace and he's getting all the
stories and all the pictures,but he does get these sort of
(04:48):
two central characters together.
And so this is the sort ofthing that this reporter is
inserting himself in theseunlikely positions and is
getting all the stories but isspreading love dust everywhere,
and so people fall in love.
And so for the last um eightyears or so I've been a movie
(05:12):
extra.
Being a movie extra is prettygood fun.
You're meeting hundreds ofweird people and you're being
bossed around and occasionallyyou get sea stars in action, and
I'd.
When I started off I thoughtthat it might be useful as a
useful sort of basis for a book,but I didn't quite know how it
(05:33):
was.
Work would work, and then, aboutthree years ago, I realized how
it would work and that would bethat we would insert our son
reporter whose name is Kim, wewould insert him on to the set
(05:57):
of Stanley Kubrick's last film,which was this eye-watering film
called Eyes Wide Shut.
And by that stage Kubrick wasabout 69 and was pretty crazy,
and his films that he'd donebefore had just got longer and
longer and longer.
And this particular one stillhas the all-time record for the
(06:24):
longest continuous movieproduction, which was 400 days
back-to-back production, whichwas 400 days back to back, and
it stars, uh, come crews and histhen wife, nicole, and the uh,
and it's got this searinglygraphic.
Uh, already seen in it, whichis the film itself, is middling,
uh, but the the audio scene islike that is something else and
(06:46):
uh, so this is the audio sceneis like that is something else,
and so this scene took months tofilm and this is the scene that
this Sun reporter has insertedhimself into.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So that's the story of Movie Rogue.
Absolutely fascinating, bill,and you'll see that we're all
decked out in our red tops today, by the way, in your honour,
honour with the newspaper.
I'm flattered but absolutelyfascinating.
Fascinating to learn that it'sabout Eyes Wide Shut, a movie
that I know reasonably well.
I've seen quite a few times.
I think I have it on DVDsomewhere.
(07:18):
But can I ask you've been areal movie extra, so what movies
have you been on actually realmovies that you've been a real
movie extra?
So what movies have you been onactually real movies that
you've been?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
involved with.
Let me see, I started off aboutseven years ago with Fast and
Furious 9, which cost 300million to make, and they were
filming in Edinburgh for about amonth and I was doing the same.
I was just a guy walking downthe street with my mate and this
(07:52):
particular scene they werefilming for about three days
from myriad angles and it tookon screen.
It lasted about 30 seconds andI was on for about half a second
.
So that was that one.
And then let me see, quiterecently I was in a TV series
(08:14):
with called Lockerbie, withColin Firth and I was playing
the part of a scum, suckingreporter at the Hague when the
Lockerbie trial happened about25 years ago, and with Brooke
Shields in A Castle forChristmas an absolute dross film
(08:39):
, but it does have a big danceat the end in which I managed to
clout Brooke Shields when wewere having a hoedown.
Yeah, so being a movie extra isyeah, it's great fun.
You're not being paid much, butyou know you're meeting all
these weird characters.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
What did you bring then from your knowledge of the
real movie world into the novel,because I presume you weren't
on the set of Eyes Wide Shut 25years ago?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
No, I wasn't, though.
As you can imagine, a number ofreporters intermittently tried
to get in on sets and getpictures and all that sort of
stuff.
And there was a stunt reporter.
He was a showbiz hack calledSean Hall, and he swore blind to
me that not only did he getonto the set of Eyes Wide Shut
(09:32):
for this damn orgy at ElvtonHall, but that he became friends
with or, yeah, friends, he saidwith Tom Cruise.
And so that is the.
That's the sort of basis forthe story, though there are some
large caveats to that, in thatSean could have been telling the
(09:54):
truth, but you know he was.
He was steeped in showbizjournalism and so he was he.
He was quite capable of makingthings up.
Anyway, unfortunately Sean isnow dead, so we will never know.
Um, but what, what I?
What you get from being a, anactual extra is you get all the
(10:19):
detail which you're not going tosee otherwise, and and you know
, of course you could read upabout being an extra and the
rest of it.
But I much prefer these days tohave to do primary research and
get stuck in and immerse myselfin whatever the subject is, and
(10:39):
so that you know you aregetting a flavor of the
conversations they're having andyou're seeing all these weirdos
.
There are a lot of veryeccentric people and you're
getting a real flavor of whatit's like in the canteens and
what you're doing in yourdowntime and the rest of it.
So yeah, some writers, somewriters.
(11:02):
They like to do their researchby just reading tons of books,
but if at all possible, I liketo get stuck in.
It's much more fun.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And did any real-life events personality inspire this
character in movie route?
I assume it's a continuation ofKim's story perhaps, or do you
have a show?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yes, it is.
So you've got this, you've gotthis sun hack Kim, and he is
inserting himself in thesevarious weird places that are
quite interesting and some ofthe stories are, are true, um,
(11:50):
and I like to, I like to makestuff up and I like to, uh,
blend it in with real stuff.
So, as you can imagine, forthis I ate every single book I
could on kubrick and quite a fewon Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman
, but mainly I was eating stuffon Kubrick, who was just this
(12:12):
complete despot, and hegenerally partnered up with
Warner Bros and because hisfilms always made money and
always came in under budget bythe end, he had complete power.
And so he got Tom Cruise andNicole Kidman to sign up this
(12:38):
unbelievable contract, and itwas a contract without end.
Normally, if you're signing amovie contract, you know you'll
agree to work on the project forwhatever 100 days might be
about the norm for a movie.
But they say, no, we will workwith you for just as long as it
takes.
And what Kubrick liked to do wasbreak his stars down, and the
(13:04):
way he would do it was withrepeated takes.
And, um he, so you do your take, and it would be perfectly
confident, because you know, tomcruise is a pretty confident
actor and he'd just sit thereand say do it again, and he kept
it.
He'd just say do it again, doit again, do it again and, uh,
(13:24):
memor, he got Tom Cruise to walkthrough a doorway 95 times and
for some people, like ShelleyDuvall who was on in the Shining
, he completely broke her at onecrucial scene in the Shining.
He got her doing the same thingabout 130 times, anyway.
(13:51):
So these are some of thestranger things about Kubrick
that I like to include.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, so that feeds itself into the novel and
without giving away, obviously,the entire plot of the new novel
, how how does does Kim inserthimself into this very, very
peculiar scenario?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, kubrick was an immensely secretive guy.
What had happened was that he'ddone Full Metal Jacket and
everyone had known, which isabout Vietnam, and it had gone
(14:42):
on a really long time, as usualfor Kubrick.
But meanwhile another film cameout at much less money and much
less time, platoon by OliverStone, and it was a similar kind
of Vietnam story and it sweptthe board.
Sort of best picture and bestdirector must have been a joker
for him.
And so, after Full Metal Jacket, he decided to be.
(15:06):
He was ultra secretive aboutall his uh projects, most
especially eyes wide shut.
So nobody knew what it wasbased on, nobody knew the name
of the film and very few peopleknew the story at all, apart
apart from, I guess, tom Cruiseand a few others.
Certainly no one knew that itwas based on this weird book by
(15:29):
a guy who I'd never heard ofcalled Arthur Schnitzler.
It's a pretty boring book too,but anyway, kubrick was obsessed
with it.
Um, and what happens in thestory is that, uh, this this sun
reporter um gets wind of ofthis film and that tom cruise is
(15:51):
in it and he he does it by.
He's in just in the uhlavatories in this club, in a
cubicle and he overhears peopletalking at the urinals and this
happened a couple of times onthe Sun when stories were
overheard, you know, peoplechatting at the urinals and
(16:12):
these pearls would slip.
Anyway, the Sun reporter getsto hear this and then is duffed
up by the producer, and so thenhe is on a mission to insert
himself on the set and to sortof to, you know, put two fingers
up to the producer, and so theway he does it is that he, like
(16:34):
me, joins a number of extrasagencies, and if you want to be
an extra, you want to join anextras agency, and so there are
quite a lot of them, but themain one in Scotland is the BBB
Talent Agency, and they do meproud.
So that's how he does it andthat's how you get jobs if you
(16:55):
want to be an extra.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Sounds good.
I was just always wondering isthere any journalist or author
that has inspired you in yourwork?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
There are a number of hacks who have.
Journalists are generally notthat good at writing novels.
The reason is that you've gotto make you think you can really
churn out the words.
But moving from journalism,which hopefully is largely
(17:32):
fact-based, to novels is you aretaking a giant leap and it
takes some time to learn thisentirely new skill.
And I'm afraid I'm up therewith the writer, ian Banks, who
said, memorably and correctlythe first million words you
(17:53):
write are shit.
But there are two.
Well, there are many journalistswho have made this giant leap
from journalism to fiction,primarily Jilly Cooper.
Dame Jilly Cooper, outstandingwith her writer series.
Bernard Cornwall, who isbrilliant with historical
(18:18):
fiction, and Robert Harris, whoused to be the political editor
of the Sunday Times for a whileand has made this, has now
become a giant of fiction.
And he, like he, well, I'mslightly trying to emulate him
in that he takes a fact and hewill then turn it into great
(18:41):
fiction.
And so with with palace rogue,which is based on the story of
this uh, tabloid hack becoming apalace footman, uh, he wasn't
allowed to the actual umjournalist was not allowed to
write about anymore because ofall the injunctions.
So I've just taken the storyand I have run with it and that
(19:02):
is uh yeah.
So the number of great hackswho've done great books and
there are a number who havefailed abysmally and they
suddenly they think it's goingto be a great novel.
And then, as Giles Corrandiscovered, no mate, it's a
different piece of cheese ofcheese.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I believe the name of that Mirror journalist was Ryan
Parry, that's right.
And it was the Daily Mirror.
He smuggled his way in to be afootman for the Royals, faking
(19:42):
his CV.
And what have you Did?
You consult Ryan Parry in termsof your research, or is he
completely injuncted and is?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
not able to say a word about it.
I tried to get in touch withRyan, but I think he had a
relative who had health problems.
But I didn't really need Ryan.
I mean, I read all his stories,such as after he'd finished
being a footman, the Mirror rantwo days worth of stories and
(20:08):
and then they were injuncted andso he's never been able to
write another word about it andhe had to hand over all his
pictures.
But I didn't really need to.
I mean, you know, once you'vegot the, the detail of what he's
got and the detail of life inthe palace, and then you can,
you know, you can make it all up.
Though one thing that I foundquite amusing was obviously I've
(20:32):
made up a lot of characters,but I wasn't going to start
making up royals' names.
You know, like the Queen has gotto be the Queen and Prince
Andrew has got to be PrinceAndrew, and there was a whole
load of great detail aboutPrince Andrew's apartment which
(20:55):
was just simply eye-watering,particularly his teddies.
Watering, uh, particularly histeddies.
He used to have about well,maybe he still does, I don't
know he used to have about 70teddies which, uh, in the
daytime had to be all put inlines on his bed, on this big
double bed, and so you've gotabout six down the bottom, and
(21:17):
then another six getting biggerand bigger and bigger until you
got the big ones on the top, andthen two beds, either, two
bears either side of the thing,and so that's that.
But before he goes to bed, allthe bears have to be transferred
to their special position inthe fireplace and on the
mantelpiece, and he'd goabsolutely bloody spare, uh, if
(21:41):
the maid had put the damnteddies in the wrong position.
And it's just like crazy.
Look, if you want to, you know,muck around lining up your
teddies, mate, then knockyourself out.
But you don't get a maid to dosomething like that, you know,
when you're in your 40s or 50s,and so there, there were various
(22:02):
other stupid stories like that,and he was very he's teetotal,
but he was very keen on datingstars who would come over sort
of goggle-eyed, includingCaprice, and anyway, I was about
halfway through the story and Ihadn't quite worked out the
ending, but I suddenly had arevelation that li libel, as you
(22:25):
know, is damaging somebody'sreputation and, uh, prince
Andrew can no longer be libeled.
Short of saying he is a sexkiller, you cannot destroy him
his reputation any further so soI tucked in with that one, and
he has a suitably horrificending.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Brilliant.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
This is not your first time writing about the
royal family.
You wrote a royal.
You were a royal reporter forthe Sun.
How did you find that?
And I know you wrote about whenHarry and William was at Eton,
etc.
How did you find writing aboutthe Royal family?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
The Royals were a great gig.
And I, as you said, am an OldEtonian, and having been to
Eaton puts a lot of people'sbacks up.
Some weirdos might be slightlyimpressed oh, you're an Old,
eton puts a lot of people'sbacks up.
Some weirdos might be slightlyimpressed, oh, you're an old
Etonian.
(23:28):
But most people, particularlyeditors, think loser, and you're
sort of 50 points down beforeyou know, entitled wanker sort
of thing.
You're 50 points down beforeyou start, and that particularly
goes for tabloid editors.
Who is this posh knob is thesort of general availing
(23:51):
attitude.
And so I'd been a journalistfor about six years and had uh
been cutting my teeth for abouta year, shifting on the sun
that's freelancing, and then Ihad this remarkable lucky break
prince william is going to myold school.
And then suddenly, uh suddenly,all these doors opened for me.
(24:15):
Because what happened whenprince william went to eton was
that the press did a deal withBuckingham Palace that we were
not allowed to run any storiesat all about Prince William
while he was at the school, sothat he could fail all his exams
and be given detentions withouthaving every single detail
(24:39):
appearing in the paper.
But what then happened wasthere was still this limitless
appetite for stories about Eton.
So we just started writing aboutall his posh friends and all
these scrapes they got into andvery quickly the boys were
(25:01):
calling in with stories and Iwas obviously the guy, their
sort of handler, and I wasgiving them thousands and
thousands of pounds in cash forthese stories.
And the best I had quite anumber of tipsters, but the best
by far was this kid who wascalled agent orange, and that is
(25:27):
the the sort of uh kid in uhwho's the star of uh Eaton road.
Is this, this guy called agentorange.
Um, and bizarrely, uh it mightuh tickle you to know that uh,
since then the the Ipsos, isthat the press standards thing?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, Ipsos is the sort of self-regulatory one,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, they have now introduced,thanks to my antics about 25,
30 years ago, 25, 30 years ago,they have brought in a new rule
that you are now no longerallowed to pay minors.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Ah well, fame at last .
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Fame at last, yes, but I think they got wise to the
fact, because I was a studentwhen William was at St Andrews
instead, and I think by thenthey had kind of even more
strict regulation and theyreally struggled to get anything
out.
I think after that.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So how did an old Etonian Bill find his way into
red-top journalism in the firstplace?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, I got a spectacularly good 2.2 degree in
theology from Bristol and Iwent traveling for a couple of
years and then I was working ina hotel as a waiter for some
time and my mum was sick todeath of this prodigy, wasting
away his time at this hotel inDorset, and he paid what was
(27:04):
then quite a lot of money about400 quid for me to take
vocational guidance and answerall these questions, do a few
tests, do an interview, and atthe end of it they said you
should be a reporter, which isfunny enough.
A number of my parents' friendshad hopefully suggested this
too.
And anyway, it took me aboutthree months to get a job on a
(27:27):
paper and when I went to MissSpruill's Tertiary College,
learning shorthand and typing,and then I started as an
indentured reporter.
Indentures, I don't know ifthey have such things now, but
that meant that you had to stayat the paper for about two, two
and a half years until you werequalified, and this was a paper
(27:48):
in CERN testicle, the WilsonGloss standard, and uh, anyway,
to my astonishment, I discoveredthat, uh, I quite liked it and
that I was, that I was okay atit, and after about two years I
was getting hungrier and I didhanker to get onto the Sun,
(28:12):
which 30 years ago was quite abig paper.
It was the biggest sellingEnglish language daily in the
country, in the world actually,English language.
On a good day it would sell 5million papers, which is a
readership of about 12, 13million, so that's about a fifth
(28:35):
of the country.
So it used to have astonishingclout.
It doesn't now, but it did thenand it was quite a cheeky paper
.
And so then I got a job onevening paper and then on an
agency and then I startedshifting at the sun and I
thought after six years as ahack that I was pretty red hot.
(28:57):
And then suddenly working atthe sun, I realized it's like
I'm in the foothills and therewas so much more to learn.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It was great and, uh, you know, uh, how do you think
journalism has changed now?
What?
What do you think the biggestchanges are in the 25th year of
journalism since you started?
It's a sun, and up to now Imean well for you the the main
(29:29):
thing is obviously that uh,newspapers are dead in the water
.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
They're trying to come up with ways of making
papers play, you know, withpaywalls and all the rest, but
for local journalism, I mean,you know, the Wilson Gloss
Standard in San Francisco usedto have maybe eight reporters in
the head office and, you know,know, district reporters all
(29:58):
over the place.
Now I'd be surprised if theygot three or four.
So there's no money.
How you're going to get moneyout of local journalism is going
to be tricky.
Of course.
In 20 years time there'llprobably be about three big
national papers left, the, thecream of the crop, but they've
(30:19):
all got problems.
But one beautiful thing has notchanged and that is being a
reporter and the business ofbeing a reporter, and that is
extracting stories, your storyout of you.
That has not changed and it'spretty much the same as it's
(30:45):
been since newspapers first cameinto existence.
It doesn't matter how the newsis transmitted.
Whether it's on the radio ortelly or the internet or a
little chip that has beenplanted into your head, you will
(31:13):
still always need a reporterwho will come up to you.
Same about getting people onside, charming them and
extracting their story.
That is the skill of a reporterand takes a long time to get.
So yeah, in that respect that'sthe same as it's ever been.
I suspect that's the same asit's ever been.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, but it's just the question of how to monetize
it in the future, as you say.
But it does look as if you inthe 80s and the 90s were kind of
in that golden age of tabloidjournalism where there was a lot
of money around.
And can I just take you throughsome of the stories that have
attached to you as a tabloidjournalist that I came across
while researching some of thestories that have attached to
(31:58):
you as a tabloid journalist thatI came across while researching
some of your books?
For example, when you were inNew York, you had a blind date
with Ivana Trump.
Can you tell us about that?
And, more to the point, wasDonald informed?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Ivana had split up with Donald Trump by then In 97,
98, donald was just thisproperty developer I'm not sure
he was even doing the Apprenticethen and Ivana was his first
wife and she memorably saidafter splitting with Donald
(32:32):
don't get mad, get everything,don't get mad, get everything.
And she was promoting a thingby might have been mcdonald's,
might have been kentucky friedchicken called a tower burger.
And so the sun somehow got onside with her and I'm I go along
(32:56):
in this limo, pick her up andwe're eating tower burgers
together.
So the whole thing wascompletely stunted up.
Yeah, she was really nice, shewas charming and little did I
know she had a thing for, uh,younger men.
Her sort of uh, mixed boyfriendor three were all younger than
me.
So maybe I could have had achance, but regrettably I was
(33:18):
not really professional and justdid the story.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Is there any other one of these characters you met
as a journalist or somecharismatic journalist?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, one of the great journalists was a guy
called John Kay.
John Kay was the chief reporterof the Sun and had won Scoop of
the Year and Journalist of theYear, and he was a really good
journalist and, unlike me,towards the end I lost the
hunger as a reporter.
(33:53):
And if you've lost the hunger,if you couldn't care less about
the news and you're thinkingit's all the same and it's just
various confected showbizbollocks involving celebrities
and it's all pretty meaningless,then you've got to get out of
it.
You can't really be a reporteranymore.
But John Kay, he had had abreakdown and he had killed his
(34:23):
first wife and it's one of these, it was one of these completely
taboo subjects that you couldnever, ever, ever talk about.
I sat next to him for someyears and we played tennis
together and sort of go ondouble dates, me with my
(34:43):
girlfriend and him with hissecond wife, mercedes, and we
were pretty good mates and Ilearned from him the silver
tongue, which is how to work atelephone.
But you could never say to himwhat the hell happened, how,
because what, well, what?
I'll tell you what happened.
It's all, it's all in thepapers.
He um was the son's uh, industrycorrespondent and went along to
(35:07):
the tuc, had a breakdown.
And uh leaves in sort ofdisgrace and goes back to his
first wife, who was Japanese,and said that's it, my career's
over, I'm going to kill myself.
And she says, well, you can'tdo that because I can't go back
home.
And he says, you're right,we'll do a double.
(35:30):
And he then drowns her in thebath and then tries to kill
himself but does not succeed.
And um, so he was, I think,eventually convicted of
manslaughter and spent uh two orthree years in fran barnett,
which is a mental lunatic asylum, and then he came out and just
(35:55):
breezed back into the sun, withthe proviso that he would never
leave the office for a story,because if you're on a story
when you're out in the field,that's where the stress is.
So when the big storieshappened, he would be like this
black spider weaving all the,all these strands, hundreds of
strands of copy in, and he wouldturn them into the splashes.
(36:17):
Anyway, he was a greatjournalist.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
So do you think that his experiences turned him into
this great journalist, or had healready been that before?
Speaker 1 (36:32):
He was a brilliant journalist in his own right, but
he realised after that that hewas never going to cut it in the
field, as it were, I mean.
And so what he did was heembedded himself with a whole
load of contacts, particularlyin the MOD and the cops, but
mainly the Ministry of Defense,and the cops, but mainly the
(36:53):
Ministry of Defence, and theywould be giving him any tasty
stories that had come up.
For his son, a tasty storywould be any military officer
sleeping with any other officeror somebody in the other ranks.
And he got scoop after scoopwith this, but unfortunately he
(37:18):
was completely thrown under thebus.
What happened was that therewas the whole phone hacking saga
and then Rupert Murdoch, Iguess, decided that he wanted a
completely clean slate andcalled in the cops to check for
(37:38):
anything else.
And at one stage there were over100 cops in the News
International offices goingthrough all these old emails and
what they would?
It was called Operation Elvedenand what they were particularly
looking for was hacks givingmoney to cops and civil servants
(37:59):
, um which there was a lot ofmoney slopping around, and these
civil servants and these policeofficers were getting thousands
and they the about 25 of themwere charged with uh bribing
cops and civil servants.
But the hacks defences weregiving money to whistleblowers
(38:23):
and John had this hanging overhim for two years and then there
was finally a trial and all thehacks got off, apart from one
who idiotically pleaded guilty,but he was eventually cleared.
So all the hacks got off but itcompletely broke John and he
(38:44):
lost it.
He never went back to thenewsroom and he was dead shortly
thereafter.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
How do you think the phone hacking scandal has
changed journalism?
Do you think there arepractices today?
I mean, some of it is a loteasier today.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I mean, in a way, I'm sure it's still going on.
I wouldn't know.
I'd say one of the big onesthat journalists would be using
is locating people, Because nowif you've got a mobile phone,
(39:22):
the police can locate you withina few yards and I would be
surprised if hacks weren'tsomehow tapping into this
service to locate people.
But as for you know, the newsof the world used to quite fancy
(39:42):
going through medical recordsabout 30 years ago.
These days, that would be muchin this sort of climate, that
would be you couldn't really doit.
I mean, the fact is that KingCharles and the Princess of
Wales both have cancer and therehas been not a single squeak in
(40:03):
any of the mainstream pressabout what sort of cancer
they've had, which is amazingthat it hasn't come out.
But the press, in this currentclimate, can't print that
information, Though I guess onthe net there's a lot of
speculation, but no one wouldtouch it.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
That does raise an interesting issue is that, in
recent years, what we've tendedto see is newspapers in the UK
not wanting to run a story, butthe information somehow leaking
out somehow, I say leaking outon Twitter, or, as we now call
it, x.
So are you saying, though, thatthat information about the
royals is not circulating on X,or has it leaked out in that way
(40:48):
?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I don't think that many people know just a few
doctors and maybe the very, veryclose members of the family,
certainly not Harry or Meghan,because I think we know what
they would have done with theinformation.
They'd have called up theirbuddy, omid Scobie.
Yeah, it's true, charles andparticularly the Princess of
(41:14):
Wales, are now sacred cows, andyou would be you would not be
want to be the newspaperbreaking that story.
Sometimes, what the mail usedto do this was such a funny.
They'd have this tasty storythat they wanted to tuck into
(41:37):
because their readers would, youknow, want to be of interest to
the readers, and what they thendo is get some other paper to
print it, like the sun or themirror or maybe the star, and
then they could pile in with allthe detail and have confected
outrage at what's been done withthis story and how it's been
printed in the first place.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Very daily mail.
Yeah, yeah, Can I ask?
I mean, you don't have toanswer if you want, but when you
wrote the Spare Hair, do younow wish that you hadn't written
that story?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I wish I had written that story.
No, the Sparrow Handbook was aI would say, a jokey little
guide.
It was about 12 years ago andKate, prince George, had been
born and Kate was pregnant withanother kid, and so we didn't
(42:38):
know whether it was going to bea boy or a girl, but it was just
at the time.
Uh, prince harry's advice tothis spare air, um, didn't
really sell very well, but itwas a, it was a fun idea.
And boy have have we beensuperseded by events, um, but it
was fun.
Yeah, it was just.
It was just, uh, me channelingprince harry, though I would
(43:00):
never have believed, it seems tome.
What's so funny about princeharry and megan is they're all
into their privacy and, you know, megan disowned her father
because he incompetently I meanhe doesn't hasn't got the first
clue about the press.
He incompetently I mean hedoesn't got the first clue about
the press he incompetently gotgoing with uh photographer and
(43:24):
uh staged some shots with him inthe sort of, with this stupid
belief that, uh, the press wouldthen go away.
And this was the excuse thatMeghan needed not to deal with
her father ever again, or indeedany of her siblings.
But now what the hell has Harryjust done with his book and all
(43:45):
his interviews, if not exactlythe same and times 10?
But you know the great thing?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Sorry, I was just going to say you don't think
that your book was called theSpare Air.
You don't think that maybeHarry took the title, maybe had
a look at your book and sort ofthought that's a good title for
my book.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
You're welcome to it, Harry.
I'm flattered that you want it.
But what amazes me most aboutHarry and Meghan is they are the
best thing ever for FleetStreet and journalists, because
soap operas and tabloidnewspapers love friction.
(44:32):
And without the goddamnfriction there is no story.
All you've got is prettypictures of the Princess of
Wales planting a tree or openinga hospital, and that isn't a
story.
What we want is friction.
And you know, for a long timeit was just Prince Andrew being
(44:54):
a monster, but that's not reallya story.
That's not friction really,it's just him being an
incompetent idiot.
But with Harry and Meghan, youhave got friction like nothing
else and it's never going away.
And you've got this wholebizarre thing about the cousins
never meeting up.
So, yeah, Fleet Street shouldbe getting down on their knees
(45:18):
and saying thank you to Meghanand Harry for what they have
done for newspaper sales.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
I'm quite surprised that they are not trying to
resolve this, because I think Imean we were out in LA last year
and I think the industry thereis struggling a bit, so I'm
surprised they're not trying toreclaim, you know, trying to
kind of make up with the palace,but so, but now.
(45:51):
So after this, then where areyou heading next?
Where do you think, after MovieRogue?
When is it coming out?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Movie Rogue is coming out in the autumn.
I am just editing it up as wespeak.
And, yes, currently I am theworld's expert on Stanley, this
nutcase called Stanley Kubrick,and indeed Eyes Wide Shut.
I might even have watched thatfilm more than you have, john.
(46:20):
Oh, I could believe that soyeah, on with the next novel.
I'm not quite sure what it'sgoing to be, but it will have
the name Rogue in the titlebecause, yeah, if you're writing
(46:41):
a book you want to make sureit's part of a series.
The first book is unlikely togo, but by the third or fourth,
hopefully, you'll start to getsome traction.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
So it will be another Rogue.
Yeah, another Rogue.
Well, the best of luck withthat.
Before we let you go, can I askyou because I have an interest
in it as well about one ofhistory's most famous rogues
that you've written?
Speaker 1 (47:05):
about.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Lord Lucan, lucky Lord Lucan, lucky Lord Lucan,
which is the same kind offictionalised memoir as you've
done with, I think, prince Harryand also actually, I believe,
simon Cowell.
So what's your latest take onLord Lucan?
There was a documentary, Ithink about a year ago, in which
the nanny, sandra Rivett's son,claimed to have tracked down
(47:26):
Lord Lucan to Australia, but Ibelieve that was quickly
debunked.
But what's your own take onthat?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
The Lord Lucan story is, for any aspiring hack, this
great white whale of anexclusive.
It is this massive story thathas been out there for 50 years
and for any hack who can crackit, who can genuinely crack it,
(47:55):
what happened to this guy?
They will have fame andimmortality will be assured them
, and it's it is.
And the beautiful thing is thatwe all know this story is out
there.
Um, so, the story about lordlucan for and most people under
the age of 40 have not heard ofhim, but it's a great story.
(48:15):
Uh, it happened about 50 yearsago.
Lord Lucan was this very richearl, seventh earl of Lucan, who
would have then been worthabout six million pounds and
who'd managed to gamble the lotaway.
He was estranged from his wife,veronica, and had three
children.
He moved out of the familyhouse and in 1974, he comes up
(48:38):
with this hatches, thisbrilliant plan to kill his wife
and drop her body off in thechannel.
And we can't be sure whathappened on this November 9,
1974, but the best bet is thathe got the wrong woman.
It might have been somebodyelse.
He got the wrong woman.
(49:03):
It might have been somebodyelse, but unfortunately his
wife's nanny, sandra Rivettchanged her night off and so,
instead of being away at thecinema, was back home and Lord
Lucan was down in the basementof this house in Belgravia.
He'd unscrewed the kitchenlight bulb and this petite woman
trots down the stairs and heattacks her with this piece of
(49:25):
lead piping, hits her five orsix times over the head and
kills her, and then discoversthat he's got the wrong woman.
It's not his petite wife, it isSandra Rivett wife, it is
Sandra Rivett.
And then, 15 minutes later,veronica, the wife, comes down
(49:45):
the stairs saying Sandra, sandra, where are you?
And uh, lucan attacks her onthe stairs and they're fighting
and he managed to hit her atonce or twice over the head, but
she knees him in the groin hardand that's him out.
And then they, they're bothsitting on the stairs having
this uh odd conversation and heclaimed that there'd been a
(50:06):
burglar in the basement and heconfronted the guy.
But that doesn't really holdwater.
And then he says well, I'm justgoing off to wash my hands.
And uh, so he goes upstairs towash his hands and Veronica, the
wife, takes her chance and runsout the house screaming murder,
murder, and goes to thiswonderful pub in Belgravia, the
(50:27):
Plumber's Arms well worth avisit if you are a hag.
And now they've got Lucan alethere and I'm all.
Lucan then has about twominutes to get out of the house
before the hue and cry starts.
And he he's just going down thestairs and his daughter comes
(50:52):
to him and says what's happening, daddy?
And he says nothing.
Go back to bed.
And that, as as we know, is thelast time he ever spoke to any
of his children.
His getaway car was discovereda couple of days later in New
Haven, which is a port, and hehas never been seen or heard of
(51:13):
since.
And so, as I say, for any hackwho can discover what happened
to him, it's a great, it's agreat, great story.
And so for a long time on FleetStreet there would be these
periodic hunts off around theworld.
They all charged to Africa orAustralia or you name it.
The hacks were there and thepolice were there, but nothing
(51:36):
really held water.
And anyway, I was telling.
About 15 years ago, I wastelling my publisher about this
story.
He didn't really know the LordLucan story and I said to him
hey, wouldn't it be great if wecould find Lord Lucan?
And then the penny dropped, Idon't have to find Lord Lucan
because I can just make it allup, and so that's what this is.
(51:57):
This is the Lord Lucan, mystories, my stories, the old
diaries edited by me.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
So what do you think, then, about the real case?
I mean, there has beensightings in australia, south
africa, um, some um stories thatmaybe, um, the children in
later years were flown out toAfrica to observe their father
from a distance.
Or do you think he's dead, thathe just fell off the ferry?
(52:27):
That's the family claim.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, the family and all of Lucan's friends, all of
that have all been saying thesame thing for the last 50 years
, and that is he killed himself.
Yeah, couldn't take the shame,he couldn't take the ignominy.
You know, he bought his lastthrow of the dice and he had no
(52:51):
option but to kill himself.
But there is no actual evidencefor him having killed himself.
The only evidence is that hehasn't been seen.
But generally, if you want tokill yourself, you just kill
yourself.
You're not looking to and doaway with your body as well.
Um, so that's on the one side,and they were the family were
(53:16):
slightly pissed off with me fora while, but now they've piped
down because I've just beenusing it for yet more publicity,
because we love friction, but Iwas leading the charge saying,
well, hang on, the only evidencethat he's dead is that we
haven't seen him and he couldeasily have got away.
(53:36):
And the fact is that Lucan hadthese two very rich, very
unscrupulous friends calledJimmy Goldsmith and John
Aspinall, and these guys had alot of money and, crucially,
they had mob contacts and theseguys could have easily got Lucan
(53:57):
out of the country.
Have easily got Lucan out ofthe country.
And once you've got him out ofthe country, well, you give him
a I mean, goldsmith was probablyworth hundreds of millions you
give him a few million to sorthimself out with a new life.
And so occasionally there arelittle little clues that Lucan
might have got away His watchturned up at a South African
(54:21):
pawnbroker's and, as you say,john, his children would
occasionally go out on safari,paid for by John Aspinall, and
apparently Lucan would besitting in a bush watching them
from afar.
And so there are little thingslike this, and the latest one is
that Sandra Rivett, the nannywho was murdered, she had a son
(54:46):
who was adopted and he found outcomparatively recently that his
mother was Sandra Rivett andthat she'd been murdered.
And so this guy, neil Berryman,has been on a quest now to find
Lord Lucan much like us, thoughprobably not with as much
drinking involved, and he soundsslightly obsessive about it and
(55:09):
he unbelievably got the BBC tomake a three parter on his on
his quest, parter on his on hisquest, um, and he thought that
he had tracked lord lucan downto, uh, australia, where lucan
was apparently a retiredbuddhist monk, uh, and it amazes
(55:34):
me that this was turned into athree-parter, because the both
the police and the Australianpolice were quizzed about it and
they said we have no interestin this man and that generally
means it is not Lord Lucan Voila.
So yeah, the beautiful thingabout the Lucan story is that
(55:54):
your guess is as good as anybodyelse's.
There's very few actualconcrete facts to go on.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Yeah, yeah, agreed.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Okay, well, and the final question to you is what
would you say to your21st-year-old self and maybe,
what would you have donedifferently If you could go back
in time?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Buy Apple and Microsoft.
I mean this sort of idea ofchanging things in your life.
You know the whole thingstrings together and without one
link in the chain the wholething can can change.
(56:41):
And you know, I'm, I've got,I'm very happily married, I've
got a couple of kids, and youknow.
So, you know, you know you youalter one thing and, um, yeah,
you can change everything.
Uh, so I would, yeah, buyingapple and microsoft.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Yeah, stick with those ones and uh, and is there
anything else you want to tellour listener, or and how can
they get in touch with you more?
Speaker 1 (57:09):
and where can they get out of the book?
Oh well, the all my books areon amazon and, um, uh yeah,
william cole's one is my Twitterthing.
I've now got in tow with thisgreat young lad I'm not very
good with the internet, but heis and so we are now producing a
ton of quirky little videos totry and flog the books, because
(57:33):
these days, if you are a writer,it's not enough to have written
a pretty good book.
That is helpful to becoming abestseller, though by no means
essential.
But if you want it to become abestseller, then route one is to
get it turned into telly or amovie, and route two is the
(57:54):
Internet and seeing if you canturn yourself into a little
internet star.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Well all I would say, Bill, is thank you very much
for your interview today andyou've been a real internet star
for us and it's been absolutelyfascinating talking to you.
And good luck with the new book, Movie Rogue, and these little
side internet projects, videoprojects.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
Well, thank you so much.
What a pleasure being with you.
Speaker 3 (58:23):
Thank you very much for being here and thanks also
to our listener.
And listen to our channel andplease subscribe and see you
next week.
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