July 3, 2025 • 47 mins
On this episode of The First Responder Playbook, I sat down with Yogi Mueller—leadership coach, speaker, and author of The Great Slapping. We dove into the real power of mentorship, the importance of honest feedback, and why grit is more valuable than polish. Yogi shared lessons from his time with Disney and broke down how his Grit Index helps leaders get truly honest about growth. Whether you’re in business or on the frontlines, this conversation is packed with insights to help you unlock your team’s—and your own—full potential.
Want to be a guest on The First Responder Playbook: Insights on Leadership and Training? Send Brent Colbert a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1748037097521814b71b1b454
Yogi's website and G.R.I.T. index: https://craftleadership.net/embrace-the-g-r-i-t
Yogi's book:https://amzn.to/45OMh7O
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Guys, welcome to the first responder playbook. I am blessed to have
Yogi Mueller with me tonight. He's a leadership coach,
speaker, and author of the Great Slapping, a raw
and honest book about the power of real mentorship.
With over two decades of experience designing leadership and
talent development programs for major brands like Disney, Yogi
(00:22):
brings a direct, real world approach to growth, feedback and what it
truly takes to unlock someone's potential. He is
the founder of Craft Leadership and the creator of the Grit
Index assessment, a tool that helps leaders get honest about how
they show up and how they grow. His message is
simple. If you want to lead well, you have to be willing to take
(00:44):
a few hits and maybe deliver a few too. Yogi
has been mentored, challenged, and occasionally slapped into better leadership. And
today he is here to talk about why mentorship matters more than ever.
How to give feedback that actually works, and what it takes to grow
grit in a world that often values polish over
progress. Please welcome Yogi Mueller.
(01:06):
Brent, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here, sir. Yeah,
absolutely. So let me ask, how
did you get into the world of leadership and mentorship?
Great question. I am one of those, those individuals. A lot of, in our
business we did, we kind of fell into the, the learning and talent development
side. You know, when I went to college there was, there weren't any
(01:29):
degrees in learning development. There wasn't, it wasn't the, the science it is
today in a lot of areas. And I just found myself working
with the, the trainers or the, or the interns
or, or you know, teaching classes that I created kind of in
a vacuum, not knowing again that there was this whole industry. And then
I, I worked for Disney for 10 years and that company helped
(01:52):
focus. I mean they were doing this stuff back in 55, right when Disneyland opened
up. So they really helped me focus my passion, my,
my, my why. And that's where it stuck. So that's kind
of fun. It kind of fell into it. I gotta ask, how
did you get in the world of Disney and what was your favorite thing about
working for Disney? So I, I've always been
(02:14):
a fan. My parents, God, we were blessed and we
visited a lot of know since I was seven and on up,
spent my honeymoon in, at Disney and my wife and I
decided, well, we were living in Milwaukee at the time, went to Marquette University
and I'm like, well, let's move to Florida. We have no friends or family down
there. Let's just go down and work for the mouse. And
(02:38):
that was it, you know, And I learned a lot in some areas.
It chewed me up and spit me out. And I worked for some
great leaders. I worked for some not so great leaders. But I think
the entire experience was absolutely invaluable.
You know, I. There, I tell a lot of stories about my Disney time
in the book. And I said, you know, I'll leave the challenging times for
(03:00):
the next book. You know, the great slapping First Blood, you know.
But it was a dream and I
realized it and it was awesome. So let me ask you this.
Do you prefer the cold of Wisconsin or the heat of Florida? Oh,
snow is a nice place to visit, but I'm. I'm good in
(03:22):
Florida. People go, well, it gets 100 degrees in Florida. Well, I stay
inside in the air conditioner. Like when it gets 20 below in Wisconsin, you stay
inside in the heat. But I've got eight months, seven
months of 70 degree weather with blue skies. You
have 10 months of cold, miserable, gray weather.
Yep. I will say, though,
(03:45):
I was a big Marquette basketball fan growing up because
of Dwyane Wade. So I've always kind of
followed Marquette from afar. Obviously OSU fan, but
I always respected Marquette basketball, so I.
Yep, I. It was. And that probably helps you. I mean, I know
you live in Orlando, so they have the magic, but, you know, Dwyane Wade
(04:09):
being down in Miami probably didn't hurt being in Florida. So. No, he
was just up there recently donating a bunch of stuff back to the
college. So it's great where when you've got a superstar like D. Wade
and still has mad respect for the school, that that made him.
Right. So that's awesome. And, you know, it's been a while since we've got the
championship 77, but we've got a couple of final fours and some sweet
(04:31):
sixteens and elite eights. So this year's our year.
Remember we heard that earlier. This year's our year. Yeah. You know, I keep telling
myself about that no issue in basketball that eventually will get good again. I'm
hopeful. Maybe this year actually is that time. We'll see. I'm
thinking osu, Marquette Final Four, maybe this year.
Hey, I'm okay with that. Okay.
(04:53):
So let me ask, how did you decide to go down the
route of writing a book that
sometimes seems like a mountain a lot of people are afraid to tackle?
It is. I. I tell people the hardest part is getting pen to
paper. It is. It is. You. You have all these
thoughts in your head. It's just transferring it here to the paper is. Is once
(05:16):
you get There, it's a little easier, but that first part is hard. I was
actually working. I was really happy in it, with it, with an organization
for 13 years. I was. At that moment, I was the vice
president of leadership and talent development, and we got bought out.
And as I love to say, they freed me up to pursue my entrepreneurial
dreams after that acquisition and with
(05:39):
this newfound time in my hand, and I wanted to do something valuable,
I wanted to show that I wasn't just, you know, laying on the couch
or, you know, walking the dog or something like that. And I'm like, I'm going
to write a book. I've been wanting to do it for a while, and that
was the catalyst that was like, I. I need to sit down and do it.
And it. It probably took me
(06:00):
total. I would say about 14 months.
Most of that was in the editing process. I tell people the writing is
sexy. The editing is not. And
you get to the point, like, you know, you. My wife, you know, at about.
Just about nine months and the due dates around the corner, she's like, just get
this thing out of me. I'm like, well, that's kind of how it is. Like,
(06:21):
when you're writing a book, you're like, just get it out of me. I'm done
with it. I need. I need to move on. That's awesome.
I. I actually just got my first article published in a police
journal, and I've always been. I
would say. I don't want to say I struggle with writing, but it's not something
I enjoy. And I had somebody give me some very
(06:43):
wise insights on a persuasive article. And
after he gave it to me, it just, like, clicked, and I was like, I
can do this. And I think writing a book,
like, once you start getting in that role, you're like. You're like, I can do
this. Do you have any tattoos, Brent? I do,
too. I have. I have four. And I will
(07:05):
tell you, writing is like getting a tattoo.
As soon as you have one, you want another. So I'm
already starting to plan out my next book already. That's
awesome. I love it. So tell me about the. The great
slapping and the power of mentorship. Like, tell that for my audience.
I wanted to. I wanted to show
(07:28):
gratitude to my mentors. I wanted to show gratitude
to my mentees, because I've learned as much as my mentors over my life as
I have from my mentees. I. One of the purest
joys I have in my life right now is being a
mentor and. And I've had mentors
that have been with me for 14, 15 years.
(07:50):
And just to see them work, when I saw them at the beginning and where
they are now, that arc that growth is
incredibly inspirational. And, and I, you'll,
you'll hear me spout quotes a lot. And one of my
favorite quotes is happiness is planting a seed of a tree whose shade you
will never enjoy. And I consider
(08:11):
that my mantra, my why that
I saw potential in somebody and I invested in them, not knowing if
I was even going to be around for the payoff, but knowing that I had
a part of that growth is why I do what I do. So
I wanted to do an ode to my mentors and
mentees. But I will also tell you, Brent, I fear for the future of
(08:33):
mentorship. I, I fear the
fact that we have an experienced audience and
we have an up and coming audience and there's this,
and again, I'm speaking in generalizations, but there's this
inability or, or a lack of interest in
understanding how to communicate to each other. So they, they,
(08:56):
they diverge from frustration. And in my experience
being a, I've taught at middle school, high school, college and grad school
level, as well as in the professional world, there is
a general disdain for critical feedback
in younger generations, again, to my experience,
(09:17):
and it's seen as an attack. And that's the
opposite of what good mentorship is about, where it needs to
have that critical kind of parts of it.
But if everything that you're given is, is being viewed as an attack,
there's no, there's no learning, you know, And I was also thinking about AI the
other day. It's like, you know, why do I need to learn from somebody that's
(09:39):
been in the business 30 years when I can get all my information
from AI? But it's not just about a transfer of
information. It's about understanding your potential. The
AI is going to give you answers whether they think you can do it or
not, or, or that you're worthy of the, the information
you're getting. Mentorship's the other way around. They're giving you
(10:00):
the information because they know it's going to pay off and they believe in you
not just responding artificially to some question you ask.
Yeah, I, I, I love that because,
I mean, we talked about this off air a little bit. You know, my experience
on receiving critical feedback is kind of jaded a
little bit because of a negative experience. But I, I
(10:23):
didn't touch on this beforehand, was that there was a
generational gap as well. Between him and myself,
he was an old school, like, you know, Marine from the
1980s. I'm, I don't want to call myself a millennial, but, you
know, I'm, I'm a late 80s baby. And there was
definitely still a generational gap there. And I think that
(10:46):
played a lot of just how I was grown
up in receiving feedback and how he gave
it. It was just like instantly like, nope, I'm not, I'm not listening to
this. And good, bad or indifferent, you know, I'm not saying I'm
perfect, but that definitely
played a role in our, in starting that mentor
(11:08):
relationship because I, you know, I'd heard all the great things. He was just the
greatest guy. And for whatever
reason, we just never, ever clicked.
And I, I'm interested to
think about that some more because I think that you're right. The generational
me, the younger me was like,
(11:30):
man, how do I receive feedback? You know, and, and
I've, I've grown. I think I'm definitely
still got a lot of work in that area. But I try to be
cognizant now when somebody gives me that feedback, to
just assume, not necessarily assume, that's coming from a negative place.
It could be coming from a positive place in that you need to improve
(11:52):
your performance or whatever it may be. And
it's something that a lot of us, younger generations, I'll say it, need to work
on. You know, words are powerful, but the
lack of words are just as powerful. I tell a story
in my book about a student who,
incredibly bright, very creative,
(12:15):
was about 26, it was in a master's degree,
huge potential. You could see it all. I mean, he just oozed
potential. But he would show up to class late, he would
turn in crappy work or not turn in at all. He would
sleep in class. He just, he just showed he didn't care
at all. And here I'm seeing somebody with all this potential
(12:38):
go to waste. So one, one day during break, I called him aside and I
basically said, dude, what the hell are you doing? You are
smart, creative, dynamic. I've seen your artwork. It's
incredible. You have so much potential. Why are you throwing it
away? And this 26 year old kid starts
crying and I'm like, oh my God, I totally made
(13:00):
a student cry. He says, no, no, no. He says, nobody's ever
told me that. My parents
never told me, my high school counselors never told
me. In fact, they told me the opposite, that you were worth nothing.
And so this kid believed that.
(13:20):
He believed that he was worthless.
And if you're not talking to somebody
and you're not helping them with their potential or you're giving them that kind of
feedback, this kid could have cured cancer. This
guy could have made the next academy award winning film.
This guy could have solved all sorts of world problems.
(13:45):
But because you tore him apart and you destroyed his self worth
because you didn't feel, you didn't, you didn't take the time to see
what his potential was, it's a loss to humanity, not just
to this kid. Yep. So, you know, that's, I,
I think that's a very great thing to say because
(14:05):
too often, especially in the first responder world,
it is expected of you to
just do your job and go home. And
so I think it's human behavior though,
that people want to hear, hey, I did something good.
(14:26):
And far too often in leaders
in their leadership roles just don't convey that message. They
just say, well, you just did your job and that's fine. And I just,
I don't think that's acceptable in today's day and age
because that, that's, I mean, when I was in that position,
I wanted to hear somebody tell me I was, I did a good job. Hey,
(14:47):
you made a great bus tonight. Hey, you made a great arrest or hey, you
handled that a call appropriately, like, good job. So a small,
a small 30 second exchange can mean the world to a
younger officer or you know, medic or firefighter, whatever the case may be.
And I think that we have to realize moving forward
that like that 30 seconds can mean
(15:09):
the world to that person that's underneath you. And
you know, if you don't say it, it can definitely affect you and how you
say it can affect them. You know, if you come in there and say, hey
man, like you did good today, like that's going to hit home to them.
And you know, we really need to start implementing stuff like that
more often in the first responder world. You know, you
(15:32):
bring up an interesting point and I mentioned off air that, that I wanted to
really kind of dive into what does mentorship look like in the first responder world.
But you said something too, that in, in your world that you, you, you have
to compartmentalize a lot, right? You have it just
for what you're exposed to on a day to day basis. It is, it
is, is maybe that desire to not.
(15:55):
Because when you mentor somebody, you almost live through things again, right? You, you
recount your experience, you recount this. And yes, there's a
desire to help somebody through Something, but maybe for their
own psychological safety, they
compartmentalize that out and, and,
and not relive that again just because personally they
(16:17):
can't do it. I, I, I, I, I, I don't ever want to claim that
I understand what that stress is like on
first responders. So I, I don't want to comment on that. But I was just
curious if, what do you think? I definitely think that plays a role in,
into it for a lot of guys because
they do see a lot of things that most people probably won't ever
(16:41):
see. And you know, we may see it 20, 30 times
over a career, you know, death or, you know,
bad car accidents or shootings, whatever it may be.
And you're, you're right when you, part of that mentoring is kind of
reliving those experiences. And I think that they just kind
of, I don't want to say kick the can down the road, but they
(17:04):
nest, they might just put it away in the cabinet and lock it away and
forget it instead. And I
think that would, that makes a lot of sense, actually looking at it
from my perspective, because
oftentimes they don't want to relive those events that they've went
through. Understood. You know, and, and
(17:26):
sometimes in, in a world where your
safety is paramount and sometimes,
maybe again, this is just my, my, my take on it, that
that abrupt feedback that you received
may save your life versus more of that softer tone. Right.
(17:47):
And that the outcome of your life saved
outweighs how you receive the feedback or how it was
delivered. Absolutely. And I truly believe
that there is a time and place for both in this career field.
You know, if you're in a, you know, a critical
incident, sometimes it may just need to be short and abrupt
(18:10):
and, you know, may not come across all nice and, you know,
huggy, but, you know, later on
you can follow up with, hey, this is why this was conveyed that
way. This is why I said what I said. This is
the way I handled it. That would be worth a million
dollars right there with, with that, that follow up on that. Yeah,
(18:31):
and we often forget about that in law enforcement,
you know, because we've got another call to go to
or, you know, we got to take somebody to jail and then you get back
and, hey, we got another call to go to. And so I don't think that
follow up ever happens. But I know in my brain, like I
explained to you off air, my negative interaction when
(18:54):
I tried to follow up with, I was shot down because on my
end I wanted to make that connection with that gentleman and say, hey, I
want your experience, I want your wisdom. Teach me. And
it never happened. Is that, is that
image of the, the grizzled detective picking up and
putting the rookie under their wing? Is that, is that Hollywood or does that
(19:16):
exist in your world?
It happens sometimes for the good, sometimes for the
bad. I think
it, I, I, I just off the top of my head, I know some
situations where it really went very well
(19:37):
because I had another supervisor that was, I
would say, probably a year or two left from retirement by the time I started
there. And he was never going to go out and do
anything proactive. Most of the time he's probably hiding
in a dark corner. But I knew
if something big popped off or I stumbled into a great
(19:58):
traffic stop or, you know, we got a big call, he was going to be
there to back me up every time. And I knew when we actually had
calls, he was going to handle himself appropriately. He wasn't out there
trying to, you know, stir up getting a foot pursuit or
vehicle pursuit because he was that close to retirement. But I
knew he had my back when it matters, and I knew he was going to
(20:20):
treat me with respect. And so, like,
I enjoyed working with him. But then there was other ones there
that had been there for just as long that were
negative influences on other officers because
they wouldn't, they would basically just allowed them to
do whatever they want and, you know, they were there to tell their
(20:43):
war stories. And yeah, I did this
20 years ago and but they didn't actually,
they weren't checked in, you know, even when, like, you know, they, I,
I would consider those two very similar in they
were both getting close to retirement. But the difference was the one that was good
to me, he showed up and backed me up and like,
(21:06):
made me feel part of the team. And the other one, he was nice to
me, but he was also close to
retirement. But I never got the connection
of he cared about me. It
was more so of stories
I've done the job like, you know, good luck.
(21:28):
And those are such subtle differences
because if you look at in the big picture, they're very similar in how they
operated overall. But those are subtle differences
that while I get along with them both today personally, great, like, they're
both great guys, but how they were as
leaders were just subtly
(21:50):
different. But they made such a big difference in how I viewed them as leaders.
It's a lot to unpack there, Brent. Yeah.
So a couple of things, you know, there are some foundational things
that must exist in a mentoring relationship you know, and I talked about the
importance of trust. If, if there is not a mutual and
(22:10):
strong trust between the mentee and the mentor, the conversations are not
going to work. The relationship's not going to work. The other, the other thing that
needs to be there is the concept of voluntary relationships.
The mentor needs to be a part of your life as a
mentor voluntarily. Now, it might be part of a company program,
but if the mentor signs up for the program because they want to
(22:33):
mentor, there's where that voluntary. But the mentee has to be voluntary too.
They have to come to the table willingly. If they come kicking and
screaming, it's not going to work. Right.
So you need that trust and you need that, that sense of voluntary
thing. And the last thing that is absolutely important is the
mentor relationship. The mentor needs to understand
(22:54):
fundamentally that the relationship is not about them.
It is not there to make them look better. It's not about them
to put a feather in their cap that they had a mentee. It is
completely complete investment in that mentee.
So because of those three things, I would recommend
that you don't often look at your leaders as mentors. I think
(23:17):
there are some qualities in leadership that
must exist in mentorship and vice versa. But I would,
I would encourage you to find mentors that are outside of your
reporting relationship, outside where you're not going to get
caught up in bureaucracy, you're not going to get caught up in sop,
you're not going to get caught up in, in, in discipline
(23:40):
from a, an official standpoint. Right. And
it, a lot of times people look towards their leaders to be
their mentors because they're hungry for that mentorship, but
they may not get it because that relationship was not founded on a
voluntary standpoint. Now I've had leaders that have
turned out to be amazing mentors. I dedicate a whole chapter to one in my
(24:02):
book. But that I was only on her team for six
months. We've known each other for 20 plus years.
So it was that, that relationship, that trust
transcended that reporting relationship. So, you know, if you have leaders
that do that rock and roll, but don't always go fishing in
that pond looking for mentorship. Yep.
(24:24):
And that's something I've learned as I've gotten older,
you know, because I, like I said, when I was a young cop, I was
looking for that mentorship. And
I didn't necessarily, I mean, because. They, they glamorize it in Hollywood.
Right. You know, you could end up with the training day guy. Well, that's A
whole other different story, you know. Yeah, but, but they do,
(24:46):
they, they, they glamorize this, take this kid under the wing type of thing.
And when you're going in there, you don't know what they're facing. You want to
talk to somebody that's been in the force for 30 years, that has faced everything,
like in the army too, you know, are you going to charge up the hill
behind somebody that's been in four battles or somebody that's just fresh off the, the,
you know, West Point? It's never nothing. I love West Point. I
(25:08):
know some of these dudes are graduates, don't get me wrong there. But, but that
experience part. Do you see what I'm saying? Yep. You know, would you, would you
want to fly an airplane with a guy that's been about 30 years or a
gal that's been flying for 30 years or one that's been flying for three months?
Exactly. Right. I,
I think that a lot of times
(25:30):
younger, you know, people in this is profession especially,
you know, they go into it thinking that
the person. Because a lot of times, especially in first responder world, you're
stuck with the same people on the same shift six months to a year at
a time. And if you're new, you kind of, kind of, like you
said, you kind of just think that leader, your, your supervisor or
(25:53):
leader is going to be that mentor. And you go in there with these grand
ideas of man, this is gonna be great. He's gonna show me the ropes. Like
he, he's voluntarily wanting to do this.
Yep. And it's, it's not always the case.
And I've learned that the hard way, you know, and
(26:13):
like I said, I've had some good interactions where they actually were like, hey,
you know, like, I want to actually show you things. And you know, I want
to do that. But those two are not, you're, you're
exactly right. They're not, they're not codependent. Like,
you know, like a leader is not necessarily a mentor and vice versa. And
I think that we could do a lot better in law enforcement
(26:36):
specifically. Unfortunately, I've never, you know, been a fireman.
But we need to realize that
those are not mutually exclusive. And
you're onto something, I think, Brett, I really do. You
know, and, and it's you, you have to.
Mentorship, if you're looking at it intra
(26:58):
organizationally, whether the fire department or the police department
or EMTs or whatever. Right. And that
culture has to exist pervasively in that
organization for that really. Now there Might be pockets of individuals that have
that why about being a mentor. But if it's not reinforced, if
it's not celebrated in those
(27:20):
worlds, it's going to be very difficult. So I'm talking about fishing in that
pond, right. So if you're looking for that emotional
trust connection where they're going to be able to give you
feedback appropriately to help you be better and do better
and be more and do more, you want to find
somebody that has that ability and
(27:43):
either is strong in that culture or comes from a culture of that kind
of mentorship. And it sounds like from what you're saying in those
worlds, there really isn't a celebrated kind of understanding of
mentorship or reinforcement of that. Oh, yeah, there's
definitely not. Not on an official level. Like
I said, you'll occasionally run in somebody that you know
(28:05):
will voluntarily take you under your wing. But then sometimes, a lot of times
it's more forced. And kind of like you said, it's got to be voluntary.
And I wish there was.
There are some agencies out there that do have mentor programs,
you know, but those are very few and far between.
(28:27):
I. I truly think that it would be beneficial
to get these people in here that want to, you know, give back
and teach these people, like, you know, how to operate in
this society. And I say society. I mean, it has its own little society.
Law enforcement. Right. But, you know, operate within the bounds.
And, like, this is how we carry ourselves, and, like, this is, you know, how
(28:50):
you interact with superiors. There's
no one out there that really does that on a formal
basis, for the most part. Is there. Is there a general
expectation of a rookie's
tenure? So. So, for
example, somebody's right out of the academy already, and they. They come join a
(29:11):
force. Is. Is there ever a prevailing understanding that,
oh, this guy's only going to last two years before he goes someplace else, or
he's. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. So. And the reason I bring that up.
So I. I grew up in the North. I grew up in St. Louis. I
grew up in Milwaukee. Everybody knew everybody. We all hung out on each other's
porches growing up. Kids were friends with everybody in the neighborhood. Down here
(29:32):
in Orlando, we don't have any of that. Right. Like,
I. When I first moved down from Milwaukee, I was looking forward to getting
to know my neighbors. Nobody ever left their house most because they were like
110 degrees in the summer. But no, nobody. Nobody
got to know each other. And I learned that because Orlando
is a very transient community, people come for a Year and
(29:54):
then they leave a lot of rentals in the area. Nobody goes
out of their way to invest in getting to know the neighbor.
Because why? Because they're just going to leave in six
months. Right. So that's why I asked that question. You know, from, from a
mentorship culture standpoint, what's the payoff
for investing in somebody that may only be there six months?
(30:16):
You know, so when you have that romantic rookie coming off
out of the academy and looking for this grizzled detective to kind of take him
under the wing, it's not going to happen. Potentially because of that
perception of tenure. I think that definitely does happen. Like, I
mean, you'll see guys come in and they'll work at a smaller
agency and then maybe go like the highway patrol or something, or, you know, may
(30:40):
start a small fire department, then go to like Tulsa fire Department, Oklahoma City.
And I think those threats are always going to be there. But
I would say those are exceptions to the rule and at least in law, for,
or at least in first responder worlds, because
it does happen. But I, I know from like my
agency, like I worked at a mid sized agency,
(31:03):
I guess you'd call it, and the pay was decent, like it paid
my bills. The work itself was like
fun. But the only reason I left
is because, like, I just felt like no
one there. I mean, granted Covid was happening, so
I mean, that was a little bit different. But like, I feel like a lot
(31:24):
of guys would just feel a lot better if they had that sense of
belonging to the department. Like,
hey, this is like, you know, the mentor that's been
here 20 something years, you know, he knows the culture of the department, of
how we operate. This is, you know, there's not that at most
agencies. And so there's never really a buy in of like
(31:47):
buying into your agency, if that makes sense. Oh, you, you hit
on. One of the most important benefits of having
a mentorship program in an organization is that
concept that, hey, this company, this agency is investing in me. They
see potential, they see my value, they are going out of their way. And
that creates longevity, that creates loyalty, that creates,
(32:09):
you know, officers that are there for 30 years
because they were, they were showing a path, they were given a path and they
were walked with somebody along that path to get there 100.
And that works in all organizations. And I think,
in my opinion, I feel like there was a generational skip
(32:30):
of mentorship. And I say that because a lot
of the agencies I worked at, I say a lot. I've only been at
3, but. Well, in your world that might be a lot.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
But there is a older generation of officers
that stayed at a lot of these places for 20, 25 years and never
(32:53):
left for whatever reason. But
then there's a generation of, you know, people came, they went,
they may have went to a bigger agency, they may have got out of law
enforcement. And so now there's a,
some of those people have stayed like they're not as invested
and then that new generation is coming through. They don't
(33:16):
have that same buy in as those ones that have been there for 25, 30
years. And like somebody's got to re, establish that link,
otherwise it's always going to be a revolving door. That's
great. Question. I was in that generation where both of my
parents worked for the Same company for 40 years and just before my dad
retired, his company got bought out. He got laid off and
(33:39):
lost all of his pension and working for the same company for 40 years.
So we saw parents work for the same company
and a lot of them for what? Right. They got the gold watch at
50, 40 years and that was it. Right.
So I think I'm on the end of that generation that kind of saw that.
I think we need to change our mindset. And I know I
(34:02):
mentioned loyalty for 30 years, but I think as a company, as,
as I'm 55, I will be 55 in
July. And I think we need to
change our thinking because I don't think we're ever going to
go back to working for a company for 20, 30 years being the
norm. I don't think we will ever go back there. And so
(34:24):
I remember having a conversation with one of my leaders and we were talking about
an internship program and she's like, I want these people to stay with us
for 15 years. And I'm like, it's not going to happen. If we
get somebody to stay for three years, that is a
lifetime. For people under 35, that is a
lifetime. And if in, if leadership, if, if, if the
(34:45):
senior people understand that and you get somebody to stay
for three years, that's a huge win. You might get
more out of them, but I wouldn't really set your expectation
it'll be on that three years. And, and
that's where we see some of that disconnect, Brent, where that established generation
is not wanting to invest because they don't see that 10, 15
(35:08):
year officer there. They see three years maybe leaving for a different
paycheck or they didn't, they didn't like this. They didn't like the shifts,
whatever, and they're going to go to a bigger city or a bigger agency.
So you hit it right on the, the nail on that one. But I think
our win, and hopefully sharing this out to your audience
is we need to change our thinking mindset. Absolutely.
(35:30):
I actually just had that discussion with my mom this week. And obviously
my mom's from a different generation, but her and my dad
worked for the state for 25 years. My dad was a state trooper,
and they don't understand that.
And, you know, I told them eventually I'd like to be a police
chief. And they're like, well, you just need to stay where you're at. And I'm
(35:51):
like, that doesn't fulfill what I want to do long
term. Like, I love where I work at, but
career goal wise, like, if I stay there 25 years, like, I work for a
tribal agency. And so, like, I'm not tribal, so I can only go
like a certain level high. That's just how they have it set up.
Understood. But my parents don't
(36:14):
understand that concept there. They, they think I should just stay there
because it pays my bills, it's steady, and they don't understand
me wanting to switch to maybe a different agency eventually and be a
chief of police. And they're just like, well, you just
need to stay there and, you know, do what you're doing. You got a great
job. Well, yeah, I do, but at the end of the day, it doesn't fulfill.
(36:36):
Me, you know, but see, back then, employment was fulfillment. I
mean, that was the expectation. You get a job, you stay there for 40 years,
you have 2.3 kids, a white picket fence, two cars, and maybe a
dog. And that was the American dream. You know, I, I think,
you know, not only has that been eroded over the last 20 years, Covid
completely shot that to hell. Yes. And.
(37:00):
In, in, in. So why that's important to them, you know, back then
too, if you were in a factory job or, or even, even probably in a
police officer job, if you had a job as a police officer and your son
Greg, they're going to take over where you left off. And it was just this,
this constant stream that doesn't exist anymore.
That's. That. That is historical knowledge. That is not current knowledge.
(37:22):
Yep. I wholeheartedly agree. So I want to talk a little bit
about before we get too far off the weeds, tell me about
the grid assessment. I took it. I think it's an
awesome tool. But I want to hear the yogi
spin on it. Like, I think that
it is such a unique assessment that it stands out. And it
(37:44):
caught my eye and I took it and I was like, this is my type
of an assessment for a first responder. So
tell me or tell my audience what makes your
assessment different from other ones. So the embrace the grit
was a concept. I had an employee many years ago, and she, she
loved to say, good sea captains don't learn to sail in smooth waters.
(38:07):
They learn to sail in rough waters. And that stuck with me. I love quotes,
right? And so when looking to find
what my message was, what my tent pole was for my craft leadership,
it was the understanding that, you know, I, I want
to take a very craft approach to, to unlocking people's potential,
whether it's an organization, you know, it, full disclosure, it
(38:29):
had to do with craft cocktails. I'm a big spirits guy, right? So, you know,
taking the tweezers and doing all this stuff, I'm like, yeah, that, that tiki drinks,
you know, I love all that stuff. So I wanted to kind of the, to
apply that same level of really intricate kind of design
to unlocking an individual's potential or an
organization's potential. But then I got understanding, like, okay, but,
(38:50):
but I can't even get started, I can't even get started
if somebody is not willing to get roughed up a little bit. And I, I
talked to you earlier. You know, if you finish, if you're going to put a
final coat on a piece of furniture, the last thing you do is you rough
it up a sandpaper and you smooth it out to put the final, final Conan.
Well, there are people that are not willing or able to really
appreciate that roughing or deal with it. So I wanted to really kind of start
(39:13):
there before you and I get into a coaching relationship. I want to understand what
your level of accountability and awareness is. And so I developed
the grit assessment. G stands for get
over yourself. That's all has to do about the ego
reassess with honesty. So once you're over yourself and you
realize, okay, I might have some opportunities, what are the priorities you
(39:35):
should look at? What are the truths, the kernels of truths in the feedback you're
getting? Invest in improvement, and that's okay.
So you, you know what you need to fix? What are you doing about it?
Are you willing to put that time and effort into fixing that and finally
treasure the lessons in growth? I was just talking to somebody this morning. I said,
go smell the roses, but also appreciate the thorns
(39:57):
because you have to, you have to appreciate it and
celebrate how far you've come. But you also have to recognize the importance
of those rough patches that you had because they are a part of what you
are. All right, right now that was the sandpaper that molded you into that
fine piece of furniture. So if, if you can, there's
a link, I put it in our chat in, in the website there. If
(40:19):
you want to share that with your learners, feel free to take the assessment
and you can sign up for a 30 minute consultation once
you get the results back on that. Yeah, absolutely. And I just,
I love it because it touches on a lot, you know, especially
when you get on your website and you kind of go a little bit exploring
a little bit deeper into it. What really stands out
(40:41):
about to me and, and I think you will appeal to first responders
is it's a no nonsense approach to
assessments. No fluff. Yes, we, we,
most of us don't want to hear the fluff. I mean there's always going to
be the exception to the rule. But we want these straight
(41:02):
and hard truth. Even if we may not outwardly project that
sometimes we still do like to hear that and I
like that. How
do you foresee,
like you said, you've wrote the book, you've got the assessment. Where do you see
yourself now five years from now? Like do you, do you want
(41:26):
to keep expanding on that? Well, I, I do and I, I will tell you,
Brent, just on our conversation today, if, if I can make
any type of headway in the first responder world
to help build cultures of mentorship and,
and changing perspectives about investing in
young, in the, in the younger force members and, and
(41:49):
creating that environment where people feel deal that they're being invested in
not just here read this manual. But a true,
you know, transfer of not just knowledge but experience.
That would be huge. It in, in it would be a worthwhile cause.
You know, knowing the work that you guys and gals do all the time. Right.
(42:09):
I, I'd like to be an evangelist for that. I would
like to, to you know, really
spark the fire in, in people about
why this is important and, and the damage that we talked about
earlier that can happen if we let that divergent path continue to
go in opposite directions. Yep.
(42:32):
Because eventually there's going to be a ginormous disconnect. Oh
huge. And you know,
you're gonna tip one way or the other. And that kind of scares me a
little bit. You know, it really does. I,
like I said, I know a lot of the older
officers, you know, through my Father or just,
(42:54):
you know, being at some agencies. And, like, then
there's, like I said, there's just that. That shift somewhere in there
of the lack of mentorship, whether
it be, you know, people leaving agencies and they just
not kind of like you said, they just went somewhere else.
But especially at the smaller agencies, there is that disconnect in there, and
(43:17):
we've really got to do a better job of addressing that moving forward.
Understood. Yeah, it is. I talk about that in
my last chapter of my book, and it's my call to action.
And, you know, bottom line, look,
if you feel you have opportunities, go
(43:38):
find a mentor. Don't be passive. Go find one. Be
better. Or if you're somebody that has that experience,
find an opportunity to give it back and help
that next generation. You're not going to be around for it, but who cares? That's
not why you're doing it. I love that. And I'm hoping that people
walk out with that spark. You know, there's. I.
(43:59):
I'm paraphrasing a line in the book, but there's no, there's no
greater crime than a spark unfanned that could change the
world. And I love that. Potentially, that's what's happening. So I got two
questions. Yeah. That I want to end on.
Okay, so one, I want you to tell her, because I'm gonna put it in
the notes anyways, but I want you to tell everybody where they can get your
(44:20):
book and they can find your website. But I'm
gonna keep the last one secret for when you're done because I. Okay, I. I
found something out and I want. I've gotta just. I gotta have a good note.
Okay. My. My website is
craftleadership. And you can go
there. You can find out about the programs that I teach. You can find out
(44:40):
about the keynotes. You can also link directly to
the Grit Index assessment from my website and link to my
book, which can also be found on Amazon.com and it's called
the Great Slapping the Power of Mentorship. Real,
real, real growth. Man, I'm telling you, it's been. It's a late
night. Real grow, Real Griff. Try. Can we
(45:04):
edit that? Real growth, real grit and real results. Thank
you for that. I love it. And here's what I want to end on. Yeah.
End on. Give me. You used to be a comedian.
I. I did. Tell me because I was reading the
pod match notes. Tell me your favorite
story from being a comedian.
(45:26):
Oh, I can.
And I will tell you that it's actually in my Book.
Okay. The comedy business is
cutthroat. When you start, you know, everybody starts
in their local area and they grow out. That local area
is so cutthroat because there's only so much stage time
(45:48):
and. And literally people will smile at you, turn around, they'll stab you in the
back to get that stage time. I had a different
kind of path to professional comedy. I was a musician and I was in a
comedy duo, kind of like the Smothers Brothers. So we wrote original
comedy music. So we would play bars, but we would also do comedy clubs. We
hosted an annual. We hosted a weekly comedy show in Milwaukee for. For two,
(46:10):
almost three years. And we ran into a DJ
who was also a professional comedian. His name was Dobie Maxwell. You can still find
him online. And we went in there doing something
completely different. But this guy's like, there's something about
these kids. Because we were young college students at that time.
And he took it on himself to
(46:33):
mentor us, to teach us the insides
of the comedy business, what to do, what not to do,
and incredibly generous with his time, incredibly
generous with his experience, and actually got us her first
paid gig, which is unheard of in the business. So that
romantic 30 year detective taking
(46:55):
somebody on his wing, that was my guy. That was my guy.
I will tell you my best experience because he was an
amazing guy, funny, but the best gentleman I've
ever met. Had an opportunity for open for Norm MacDonald at a hard Rock
live. And Norm, one of the
most genuine guys you will ever meet in your life, God rest his soul.
(47:18):
But that was a highlight for me. I can see that. I. He just seems
like a genuine guy. Yogi, it's been my pleasure.
You are welcome on my show anytime because you've been a great guest
and thank you, sir. Thank you. It's been an honor. I really enjoyed
our conversation. Immense, immensely. I really, absolutely. Guys, take
his assessment, apply it and help train the
(47:40):
next generation of first responders in having that good mentor in their life.
Amen.
Guys, welcome to the first responder playbook. I am blessed to have
Yogi Mueller with me tonight. He's a leadership coach,
speaker, and author of the Great Slapping, a raw
and honest book about the power of real mentorship.
With over two decades of experience designing leadership and
talent development programs for major brands like Disney, Yogi
(00:22):
brings a direct, real world approach to growth, feedback and what it
truly takes to unlock someone's potential. He is
the founder of Craft Leadership and the creator of the Grit
Index assessment, a tool that helps leaders get honest about how
they show up and how they grow. His message is
simple. If you want to lead well, you have to be willing to take
(00:44):
a few hits and maybe deliver a few too. Yogi
has been mentored, challenged, and occasionally slapped into better leadership. And
today he is here to talk about why mentorship matters more than ever.
How to give feedback that actually works, and what it takes to grow
grit in a world that often values polish over
progress. Please welcome Yogi Mueller.
(01:06):
Brent, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here, sir. Yeah,
absolutely. So let me ask, how
did you get into the world of leadership and mentorship?
Great question. I am one of those, those individuals. A lot of, in our
business we did, we kind of fell into the, the learning and talent development
side. You know, when I went to college there was, there weren't any
(01:29):
degrees in learning development. There wasn't, it wasn't the, the science it is
today in a lot of areas. And I just found myself working
with the, the trainers or the, or the interns
or, or you know, teaching classes that I created kind of in
a vacuum, not knowing again that there was this whole industry. And then
I, I worked for Disney for 10 years and that company helped
(01:52):
focus. I mean they were doing this stuff back in 55, right when Disneyland opened
up. So they really helped me focus my passion, my,
my, my why. And that's where it stuck. So that's kind
of fun. It kind of fell into it. I gotta ask, how
did you get in the world of Disney and what was your favorite thing about
working for Disney? So I, I've always been
(02:14):
a fan. My parents, God, we were blessed and we
visited a lot of know since I was seven and on up,
spent my honeymoon in, at Disney and my wife and I
decided, well, we were living in Milwaukee at the time, went to Marquette University
and I'm like, well, let's move to Florida. We have no friends or family down
there. Let's just go down and work for the mouse. And
(02:38):
that was it, you know, And I learned a lot in some areas.
It chewed me up and spit me out. And I worked for some
great leaders. I worked for some not so great leaders. But I think
the entire experience was absolutely invaluable.
You know, I. There, I tell a lot of stories about my Disney time
in the book. And I said, you know, I'll leave the challenging times for
(03:00):
the next book. You know, the great slapping First Blood, you know.
But it was a dream and I
realized it and it was awesome. So let me ask you this.
Do you prefer the cold of Wisconsin or the heat of Florida? Oh,
snow is a nice place to visit, but I'm. I'm good in
(03:22):
Florida. People go, well, it gets 100 degrees in Florida. Well, I stay
inside in the air conditioner. Like when it gets 20 below in Wisconsin, you stay
inside in the heat. But I've got eight months, seven
months of 70 degree weather with blue skies. You
have 10 months of cold, miserable, gray weather.
Yep. I will say, though,
(03:45):
I was a big Marquette basketball fan growing up because
of Dwyane Wade. So I've always kind of
followed Marquette from afar. Obviously OSU fan, but
I always respected Marquette basketball, so I.
Yep, I. It was. And that probably helps you. I mean, I know
you live in Orlando, so they have the magic, but, you know, Dwyane Wade
(04:09):
being down in Miami probably didn't hurt being in Florida. So. No, he
was just up there recently donating a bunch of stuff back to the
college. So it's great where when you've got a superstar like D. Wade
and still has mad respect for the school, that that made him.
Right. So that's awesome. And, you know, it's been a while since we've got the
championship 77, but we've got a couple of final fours and some sweet
(04:31):
sixteens and elite eights. So this year's our year.
Remember we heard that earlier. This year's our year. Yeah. You know, I keep telling
myself about that no issue in basketball that eventually will get good again. I'm
hopeful. Maybe this year actually is that time. We'll see. I'm
thinking osu, Marquette Final Four, maybe this year.
Hey, I'm okay with that. Okay.
(04:53):
So let me ask, how did you decide to go down the
route of writing a book that
sometimes seems like a mountain a lot of people are afraid to tackle?
It is. I. I tell people the hardest part is getting pen to
paper. It is. It is. You. You have all these
thoughts in your head. It's just transferring it here to the paper is. Is once
(05:16):
you get There, it's a little easier, but that first part is hard. I was
actually working. I was really happy in it, with it, with an organization
for 13 years. I was. At that moment, I was the vice
president of leadership and talent development, and we got bought out.
And as I love to say, they freed me up to pursue my entrepreneurial
dreams after that acquisition and with
(05:39):
this newfound time in my hand, and I wanted to do something valuable,
I wanted to show that I wasn't just, you know, laying on the couch
or, you know, walking the dog or something like that. And I'm like, I'm going
to write a book. I've been wanting to do it for a while, and that
was the catalyst that was like, I. I need to sit down and do it.
And it. It probably took me
(06:00):
total. I would say about 14 months.
Most of that was in the editing process. I tell people the writing is
sexy. The editing is not. And
you get to the point, like, you know, you. My wife, you know, at about.
Just about nine months and the due dates around the corner, she's like, just get
this thing out of me. I'm like, well, that's kind of how it is. Like,
(06:21):
when you're writing a book, you're like, just get it out of me. I'm done
with it. I need. I need to move on. That's awesome.
I. I actually just got my first article published in a police
journal, and I've always been. I
would say. I don't want to say I struggle with writing, but it's not something
I enjoy. And I had somebody give me some very
(06:43):
wise insights on a persuasive article. And
after he gave it to me, it just, like, clicked, and I was like, I
can do this. And I think writing a book,
like, once you start getting in that role, you're like. You're like, I can do
this. Do you have any tattoos, Brent? I do,
too. I have. I have four. And I will
(07:05):
tell you, writing is like getting a tattoo.
As soon as you have one, you want another. So I'm
already starting to plan out my next book already. That's
awesome. I love it. So tell me about the. The great
slapping and the power of mentorship. Like, tell that for my audience.
I wanted to. I wanted to show
(07:28):
gratitude to my mentors. I wanted to show gratitude
to my mentees, because I've learned as much as my mentors over my life as
I have from my mentees. I. One of the purest
joys I have in my life right now is being a
mentor and. And I've had mentors
that have been with me for 14, 15 years.
(07:50):
And just to see them work, when I saw them at the beginning and where
they are now, that arc that growth is
incredibly inspirational. And, and I, you'll,
you'll hear me spout quotes a lot. And one of my
favorite quotes is happiness is planting a seed of a tree whose shade you
will never enjoy. And I consider
(08:11):
that my mantra, my why that
I saw potential in somebody and I invested in them, not knowing if
I was even going to be around for the payoff, but knowing that I had
a part of that growth is why I do what I do. So
I wanted to do an ode to my mentors and
mentees. But I will also tell you, Brent, I fear for the future of
(08:33):
mentorship. I, I fear the
fact that we have an experienced audience and
we have an up and coming audience and there's this,
and again, I'm speaking in generalizations, but there's this
inability or, or a lack of interest in
understanding how to communicate to each other. So they, they,
(08:56):
they diverge from frustration. And in my experience
being a, I've taught at middle school, high school, college and grad school
level, as well as in the professional world, there is
a general disdain for critical feedback
in younger generations, again, to my experience,
(09:17):
and it's seen as an attack. And that's the
opposite of what good mentorship is about, where it needs to
have that critical kind of parts of it.
But if everything that you're given is, is being viewed as an attack,
there's no, there's no learning, you know, And I was also thinking about AI the
other day. It's like, you know, why do I need to learn from somebody that's
(09:39):
been in the business 30 years when I can get all my information
from AI? But it's not just about a transfer of
information. It's about understanding your potential. The
AI is going to give you answers whether they think you can do it or
not, or, or that you're worthy of the, the information
you're getting. Mentorship's the other way around. They're giving you
(10:00):
the information because they know it's going to pay off and they believe in you
not just responding artificially to some question you ask.
Yeah, I, I, I love that because,
I mean, we talked about this off air a little bit. You know, my experience
on receiving critical feedback is kind of jaded a
little bit because of a negative experience. But I, I
(10:23):
didn't touch on this beforehand, was that there was a
generational gap as well. Between him and myself,
he was an old school, like, you know, Marine from the
1980s. I'm, I don't want to call myself a millennial, but, you
know, I'm, I'm a late 80s baby. And there was
definitely still a generational gap there. And I think that
(10:46):
played a lot of just how I was grown
up in receiving feedback and how he gave
it. It was just like instantly like, nope, I'm not, I'm not listening to
this. And good, bad or indifferent, you know, I'm not saying I'm
perfect, but that definitely
played a role in our, in starting that mentor
(11:08):
relationship because I, you know, I'd heard all the great things. He was just the
greatest guy. And for whatever
reason, we just never, ever clicked.
And I, I'm interested to
think about that some more because I think that you're right. The generational
me, the younger me was like,
(11:30):
man, how do I receive feedback? You know, and, and
I've, I've grown. I think I'm definitely
still got a lot of work in that area. But I try to be
cognizant now when somebody gives me that feedback, to
just assume, not necessarily assume, that's coming from a negative place.
It could be coming from a positive place in that you need to improve
(11:52):
your performance or whatever it may be. And
it's something that a lot of us, younger generations, I'll say it, need to work
on. You know, words are powerful, but the
lack of words are just as powerful. I tell a story
in my book about a student who,
incredibly bright, very creative,
(12:15):
was about 26, it was in a master's degree,
huge potential. You could see it all. I mean, he just oozed
potential. But he would show up to class late, he would
turn in crappy work or not turn in at all. He would
sleep in class. He just, he just showed he didn't care
at all. And here I'm seeing somebody with all this potential
(12:38):
go to waste. So one, one day during break, I called him aside and I
basically said, dude, what the hell are you doing? You are
smart, creative, dynamic. I've seen your artwork. It's
incredible. You have so much potential. Why are you throwing it
away? And this 26 year old kid starts
crying and I'm like, oh my God, I totally made
(13:00):
a student cry. He says, no, no, no. He says, nobody's ever
told me that. My parents
never told me, my high school counselors never told
me. In fact, they told me the opposite, that you were worth nothing.
And so this kid believed that.
(13:20):
He believed that he was worthless.
And if you're not talking to somebody
and you're not helping them with their potential or you're giving them that kind of
feedback, this kid could have cured cancer. This
guy could have made the next academy award winning film.
This guy could have solved all sorts of world problems.
(13:45):
But because you tore him apart and you destroyed his self worth
because you didn't feel, you didn't, you didn't take the time to see
what his potential was, it's a loss to humanity, not just
to this kid. Yep. So, you know, that's, I,
I think that's a very great thing to say because
(14:05):
too often, especially in the first responder world,
it is expected of you to
just do your job and go home. And
so I think it's human behavior though,
that people want to hear, hey, I did something good.
(14:26):
And far too often in leaders
in their leadership roles just don't convey that message. They
just say, well, you just did your job and that's fine. And I just,
I don't think that's acceptable in today's day and age
because that, that's, I mean, when I was in that position,
I wanted to hear somebody tell me I was, I did a good job. Hey,
(14:47):
you made a great bus tonight. Hey, you made a great arrest or hey, you
handled that a call appropriately, like, good job. So a small,
a small 30 second exchange can mean the world to a
younger officer or you know, medic or firefighter, whatever the case may be.
And I think that we have to realize moving forward
that like that 30 seconds can mean
(15:09):
the world to that person that's underneath you. And
you know, if you don't say it, it can definitely affect you and how you
say it can affect them. You know, if you come in there and say, hey
man, like you did good today, like that's going to hit home to them.
And you know, we really need to start implementing stuff like that
more often in the first responder world. You know, you
(15:32):
bring up an interesting point and I mentioned off air that, that I wanted to
really kind of dive into what does mentorship look like in the first responder world.
But you said something too, that in, in your world that you, you, you have
to compartmentalize a lot, right? You have it just
for what you're exposed to on a day to day basis. It is, it
is, is maybe that desire to not.
(15:55):
Because when you mentor somebody, you almost live through things again, right? You, you
recount your experience, you recount this. And yes, there's a
desire to help somebody through Something, but maybe for their
own psychological safety, they
compartmentalize that out and, and,
and not relive that again just because personally they
(16:17):
can't do it. I, I, I, I, I, I don't ever want to claim that
I understand what that stress is like on
first responders. So I, I don't want to comment on that. But I was just
curious if, what do you think? I definitely think that plays a role in,
into it for a lot of guys because
they do see a lot of things that most people probably won't ever
(16:41):
see. And you know, we may see it 20, 30 times
over a career, you know, death or, you know,
bad car accidents or shootings, whatever it may be.
And you're, you're right when you, part of that mentoring is kind of
reliving those experiences. And I think that they just kind
of, I don't want to say kick the can down the road, but they
(17:04):
nest, they might just put it away in the cabinet and lock it away and
forget it instead. And I
think that would, that makes a lot of sense, actually looking at it
from my perspective, because
oftentimes they don't want to relive those events that they've went
through. Understood. You know, and, and
(17:26):
sometimes in, in a world where your
safety is paramount and sometimes,
maybe again, this is just my, my, my take on it, that
that abrupt feedback that you received
may save your life versus more of that softer tone. Right.
(17:47):
And that the outcome of your life saved
outweighs how you receive the feedback or how it was
delivered. Absolutely. And I truly believe
that there is a time and place for both in this career field.
You know, if you're in a, you know, a critical
incident, sometimes it may just need to be short and abrupt
(18:10):
and, you know, may not come across all nice and, you know,
huggy, but, you know, later on
you can follow up with, hey, this is why this was conveyed that
way. This is why I said what I said. This is
the way I handled it. That would be worth a million
dollars right there with, with that, that follow up on that. Yeah,
(18:31):
and we often forget about that in law enforcement,
you know, because we've got another call to go to
or, you know, we got to take somebody to jail and then you get back
and, hey, we got another call to go to. And so I don't think that
follow up ever happens. But I know in my brain, like I
explained to you off air, my negative interaction when
(18:54):
I tried to follow up with, I was shot down because on my
end I wanted to make that connection with that gentleman and say, hey, I
want your experience, I want your wisdom. Teach me. And
it never happened. Is that, is that
image of the, the grizzled detective picking up and
putting the rookie under their wing? Is that, is that Hollywood or does that
(19:16):
exist in your world?
It happens sometimes for the good, sometimes for the
bad. I think
it, I, I, I just off the top of my head, I know some
situations where it really went very well
(19:37):
because I had another supervisor that was, I
would say, probably a year or two left from retirement by the time I started
there. And he was never going to go out and do
anything proactive. Most of the time he's probably hiding
in a dark corner. But I knew
if something big popped off or I stumbled into a great
(19:58):
traffic stop or, you know, we got a big call, he was going to be
there to back me up every time. And I knew when we actually had
calls, he was going to handle himself appropriately. He wasn't out there
trying to, you know, stir up getting a foot pursuit or
vehicle pursuit because he was that close to retirement. But I
knew he had my back when it matters, and I knew he was going to
(20:20):
treat me with respect. And so, like,
I enjoyed working with him. But then there was other ones there
that had been there for just as long that were
negative influences on other officers because
they wouldn't, they would basically just allowed them to
do whatever they want and, you know, they were there to tell their
(20:43):
war stories. And yeah, I did this
20 years ago and but they didn't actually,
they weren't checked in, you know, even when, like, you know, they, I,
I would consider those two very similar in they
were both getting close to retirement. But the difference was the one that was good
to me, he showed up and backed me up and like,
(21:06):
made me feel part of the team. And the other one, he was nice to
me, but he was also close to
retirement. But I never got the connection
of he cared about me. It
was more so of stories
I've done the job like, you know, good luck.
(21:28):
And those are such subtle differences
because if you look at in the big picture, they're very similar in how they
operated overall. But those are subtle differences
that while I get along with them both today personally, great, like, they're
both great guys, but how they were as
leaders were just subtly
(21:50):
different. But they made such a big difference in how I viewed them as leaders.
It's a lot to unpack there, Brent. Yeah.
So a couple of things, you know, there are some foundational things
that must exist in a mentoring relationship you know, and I talked about the
importance of trust. If, if there is not a mutual and
(22:10):
strong trust between the mentee and the mentor, the conversations are not
going to work. The relationship's not going to work. The other, the other thing that
needs to be there is the concept of voluntary relationships.
The mentor needs to be a part of your life as a
mentor voluntarily. Now, it might be part of a company program,
but if the mentor signs up for the program because they want to
(22:33):
mentor, there's where that voluntary. But the mentee has to be voluntary too.
They have to come to the table willingly. If they come kicking and
screaming, it's not going to work. Right.
So you need that trust and you need that, that sense of voluntary
thing. And the last thing that is absolutely important is the
mentor relationship. The mentor needs to understand
(22:54):
fundamentally that the relationship is not about them.
It is not there to make them look better. It's not about them
to put a feather in their cap that they had a mentee. It is
completely complete investment in that mentee.
So because of those three things, I would recommend
that you don't often look at your leaders as mentors. I think
(23:17):
there are some qualities in leadership that
must exist in mentorship and vice versa. But I would,
I would encourage you to find mentors that are outside of your
reporting relationship, outside where you're not going to get
caught up in bureaucracy, you're not going to get caught up in sop,
you're not going to get caught up in, in, in discipline
(23:40):
from a, an official standpoint. Right. And
it, a lot of times people look towards their leaders to be
their mentors because they're hungry for that mentorship, but
they may not get it because that relationship was not founded on a
voluntary standpoint. Now I've had leaders that have
turned out to be amazing mentors. I dedicate a whole chapter to one in my
(24:02):
book. But that I was only on her team for six
months. We've known each other for 20 plus years.
So it was that, that relationship, that trust
transcended that reporting relationship. So, you know, if you have leaders
that do that rock and roll, but don't always go fishing in
that pond looking for mentorship. Yep.
(24:24):
And that's something I've learned as I've gotten older,
you know, because I, like I said, when I was a young cop, I was
looking for that mentorship. And
I didn't necessarily, I mean, because. They, they glamorize it in Hollywood.
Right. You know, you could end up with the training day guy. Well, that's A
whole other different story, you know. Yeah, but, but they do,
(24:46):
they, they, they glamorize this, take this kid under the wing type of thing.
And when you're going in there, you don't know what they're facing. You want to
talk to somebody that's been in the force for 30 years, that has faced everything,
like in the army too, you know, are you going to charge up the hill
behind somebody that's been in four battles or somebody that's just fresh off the, the,
you know, West Point? It's never nothing. I love West Point. I
(25:08):
know some of these dudes are graduates, don't get me wrong there. But, but that
experience part. Do you see what I'm saying? Yep. You know, would you, would you
want to fly an airplane with a guy that's been about 30 years or a
gal that's been flying for 30 years or one that's been flying for three months?
Exactly. Right. I,
I think that a lot of times
(25:30):
younger, you know, people in this is profession especially,
you know, they go into it thinking that
the person. Because a lot of times, especially in first responder world, you're
stuck with the same people on the same shift six months to a year at
a time. And if you're new, you kind of, kind of, like you
said, you kind of just think that leader, your, your supervisor or
(25:53):
leader is going to be that mentor. And you go in there with these grand
ideas of man, this is gonna be great. He's gonna show me the ropes. Like
he, he's voluntarily wanting to do this.
Yep. And it's, it's not always the case.
And I've learned that the hard way, you know, and
(26:13):
like I said, I've had some good interactions where they actually were like, hey,
you know, like, I want to actually show you things. And you know, I want
to do that. But those two are not, you're, you're
exactly right. They're not, they're not codependent. Like,
you know, like a leader is not necessarily a mentor and vice versa. And
I think that we could do a lot better in law enforcement
(26:36):
specifically. Unfortunately, I've never, you know, been a fireman.
But we need to realize that
those are not mutually exclusive. And
you're onto something, I think, Brett, I really do. You
know, and, and it's you, you have to.
Mentorship, if you're looking at it intra
(26:58):
organizationally, whether the fire department or the police department
or EMTs or whatever. Right. And that
culture has to exist pervasively in that
organization for that really. Now there Might be pockets of individuals that have
that why about being a mentor. But if it's not reinforced, if
it's not celebrated in those
(27:20):
worlds, it's going to be very difficult. So I'm talking about fishing in that
pond, right. So if you're looking for that emotional
trust connection where they're going to be able to give you
feedback appropriately to help you be better and do better
and be more and do more, you want to find
somebody that has that ability and
(27:43):
either is strong in that culture or comes from a culture of that kind
of mentorship. And it sounds like from what you're saying in those
worlds, there really isn't a celebrated kind of understanding of
mentorship or reinforcement of that. Oh, yeah, there's
definitely not. Not on an official level. Like
I said, you'll occasionally run in somebody that you know
(28:05):
will voluntarily take you under your wing. But then sometimes, a lot of times
it's more forced. And kind of like you said, it's got to be voluntary.
And I wish there was.
There are some agencies out there that do have mentor programs,
you know, but those are very few and far between.
(28:27):
I. I truly think that it would be beneficial
to get these people in here that want to, you know, give back
and teach these people, like, you know, how to operate in
this society. And I say society. I mean, it has its own little society.
Law enforcement. Right. But, you know, operate within the bounds.
And, like, this is how we carry ourselves, and, like, this is, you know, how
(28:50):
you interact with superiors. There's
no one out there that really does that on a formal
basis, for the most part. Is there. Is there a general
expectation of a rookie's
tenure? So. So, for
example, somebody's right out of the academy already, and they. They come join a
(29:11):
force. Is. Is there ever a prevailing understanding that,
oh, this guy's only going to last two years before he goes someplace else, or
he's. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. So. And the reason I bring that up.
So I. I grew up in the North. I grew up in St. Louis. I
grew up in Milwaukee. Everybody knew everybody. We all hung out on each other's
porches growing up. Kids were friends with everybody in the neighborhood. Down here
(29:32):
in Orlando, we don't have any of that. Right. Like,
I. When I first moved down from Milwaukee, I was looking forward to getting
to know my neighbors. Nobody ever left their house most because they were like
110 degrees in the summer. But no, nobody. Nobody
got to know each other. And I learned that because Orlando
is a very transient community, people come for a Year and
(29:54):
then they leave a lot of rentals in the area. Nobody goes
out of their way to invest in getting to know the neighbor.
Because why? Because they're just going to leave in six
months. Right. So that's why I asked that question. You know, from, from a
mentorship culture standpoint, what's the payoff
for investing in somebody that may only be there six months?
(30:16):
You know, so when you have that romantic rookie coming off
out of the academy and looking for this grizzled detective to kind of take him
under the wing, it's not going to happen. Potentially because of that
perception of tenure. I think that definitely does happen. Like, I
mean, you'll see guys come in and they'll work at a smaller
agency and then maybe go like the highway patrol or something, or, you know, may
(30:40):
start a small fire department, then go to like Tulsa fire Department, Oklahoma City.
And I think those threats are always going to be there. But
I would say those are exceptions to the rule and at least in law, for,
or at least in first responder worlds, because
it does happen. But I, I know from like my
agency, like I worked at a mid sized agency,
(31:03):
I guess you'd call it, and the pay was decent, like it paid
my bills. The work itself was like
fun. But the only reason I left
is because, like, I just felt like no
one there. I mean, granted Covid was happening, so
I mean, that was a little bit different. But like, I feel like a lot
(31:24):
of guys would just feel a lot better if they had that sense of
belonging to the department. Like,
hey, this is like, you know, the mentor that's been
here 20 something years, you know, he knows the culture of the department, of
how we operate. This is, you know, there's not that at most
agencies. And so there's never really a buy in of like
(31:47):
buying into your agency, if that makes sense. Oh, you, you hit
on. One of the most important benefits of having
a mentorship program in an organization is that
concept that, hey, this company, this agency is investing in me. They
see potential, they see my value, they are going out of their way. And
that creates longevity, that creates loyalty, that creates,
(32:09):
you know, officers that are there for 30 years
because they were, they were showing a path, they were given a path and they
were walked with somebody along that path to get there 100.
And that works in all organizations. And I think,
in my opinion, I feel like there was a generational skip
(32:30):
of mentorship. And I say that because a lot
of the agencies I worked at, I say a lot. I've only been at
3, but. Well, in your world that might be a lot.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
But there is a older generation of officers
that stayed at a lot of these places for 20, 25 years and never
(32:53):
left for whatever reason. But
then there's a generation of, you know, people came, they went,
they may have went to a bigger agency, they may have got out of law
enforcement. And so now there's a,
some of those people have stayed like they're not as invested
and then that new generation is coming through. They don't
(33:16):
have that same buy in as those ones that have been there for 25, 30
years. And like somebody's got to re, establish that link,
otherwise it's always going to be a revolving door. That's
great. Question. I was in that generation where both of my
parents worked for the Same company for 40 years and just before my dad
retired, his company got bought out. He got laid off and
(33:39):
lost all of his pension and working for the same company for 40 years.
So we saw parents work for the same company
and a lot of them for what? Right. They got the gold watch at
50, 40 years and that was it. Right.
So I think I'm on the end of that generation that kind of saw that.
I think we need to change our mindset. And I know I
(34:02):
mentioned loyalty for 30 years, but I think as a company, as,
as I'm 55, I will be 55 in
July. And I think we need to
change our thinking because I don't think we're ever going to
go back to working for a company for 20, 30 years being the
norm. I don't think we will ever go back there. And so
(34:24):
I remember having a conversation with one of my leaders and we were talking about
an internship program and she's like, I want these people to stay with us
for 15 years. And I'm like, it's not going to happen. If we
get somebody to stay for three years, that is a
lifetime. For people under 35, that is a
lifetime. And if in, if leadership, if, if, if the
(34:45):
senior people understand that and you get somebody to stay
for three years, that's a huge win. You might get
more out of them, but I wouldn't really set your expectation
it'll be on that three years. And, and
that's where we see some of that disconnect, Brent, where that established generation
is not wanting to invest because they don't see that 10, 15
(35:08):
year officer there. They see three years maybe leaving for a different
paycheck or they didn't, they didn't like this. They didn't like the shifts,
whatever, and they're going to go to a bigger city or a bigger agency.
So you hit it right on the, the nail on that one. But I think
our win, and hopefully sharing this out to your audience
is we need to change our thinking mindset. Absolutely.
(35:30):
I actually just had that discussion with my mom this week. And obviously
my mom's from a different generation, but her and my dad
worked for the state for 25 years. My dad was a state trooper,
and they don't understand that.
And, you know, I told them eventually I'd like to be a police
chief. And they're like, well, you just need to stay where you're at. And I'm
(35:51):
like, that doesn't fulfill what I want to do long
term. Like, I love where I work at, but
career goal wise, like, if I stay there 25 years, like, I work for a
tribal agency. And so, like, I'm not tribal, so I can only go
like a certain level high. That's just how they have it set up.
Understood. But my parents don't
(36:14):
understand that concept there. They, they think I should just stay there
because it pays my bills, it's steady, and they don't understand
me wanting to switch to maybe a different agency eventually and be a
chief of police. And they're just like, well, you just
need to stay there and, you know, do what you're doing. You got a great
job. Well, yeah, I do, but at the end of the day, it doesn't fulfill.
(36:36):
Me, you know, but see, back then, employment was fulfillment. I
mean, that was the expectation. You get a job, you stay there for 40 years,
you have 2.3 kids, a white picket fence, two cars, and maybe a
dog. And that was the American dream. You know, I, I think,
you know, not only has that been eroded over the last 20 years, Covid
completely shot that to hell. Yes. And.
(37:00):
In, in, in. So why that's important to them, you know, back then
too, if you were in a factory job or, or even, even probably in a
police officer job, if you had a job as a police officer and your son
Greg, they're going to take over where you left off. And it was just this,
this constant stream that doesn't exist anymore.
That's. That. That is historical knowledge. That is not current knowledge.
(37:22):
Yep. I wholeheartedly agree. So I want to talk a little bit
about before we get too far off the weeds, tell me about
the grid assessment. I took it. I think it's an
awesome tool. But I want to hear the yogi
spin on it. Like, I think that
it is such a unique assessment that it stands out. And it
(37:44):
caught my eye and I took it and I was like, this is my type
of an assessment for a first responder. So
tell me or tell my audience what makes your
assessment different from other ones. So the embrace the grit
was a concept. I had an employee many years ago, and she, she
loved to say, good sea captains don't learn to sail in smooth waters.
(38:07):
They learn to sail in rough waters. And that stuck with me. I love quotes,
right? And so when looking to find
what my message was, what my tent pole was for my craft leadership,
it was the understanding that, you know, I, I want
to take a very craft approach to, to unlocking people's potential,
whether it's an organization, you know, it, full disclosure, it
(38:29):
had to do with craft cocktails. I'm a big spirits guy, right? So, you know,
taking the tweezers and doing all this stuff, I'm like, yeah, that, that tiki drinks,
you know, I love all that stuff. So I wanted to kind of the, to
apply that same level of really intricate kind of design
to unlocking an individual's potential or an
organization's potential. But then I got understanding, like, okay, but,
(38:50):
but I can't even get started, I can't even get started
if somebody is not willing to get roughed up a little bit. And I, I
talked to you earlier. You know, if you finish, if you're going to put a
final coat on a piece of furniture, the last thing you do is you rough
it up a sandpaper and you smooth it out to put the final, final Conan.
Well, there are people that are not willing or able to really
appreciate that roughing or deal with it. So I wanted to really kind of start
(39:13):
there before you and I get into a coaching relationship. I want to understand what
your level of accountability and awareness is. And so I developed
the grit assessment. G stands for get
over yourself. That's all has to do about the ego
reassess with honesty. So once you're over yourself and you
realize, okay, I might have some opportunities, what are the priorities you
(39:35):
should look at? What are the truths, the kernels of truths in the feedback you're
getting? Invest in improvement, and that's okay.
So you, you know what you need to fix? What are you doing about it?
Are you willing to put that time and effort into fixing that and finally
treasure the lessons in growth? I was just talking to somebody this morning. I said,
go smell the roses, but also appreciate the thorns
(39:57):
because you have to, you have to appreciate it and
celebrate how far you've come. But you also have to recognize the importance
of those rough patches that you had because they are a part of what you
are. All right, right now that was the sandpaper that molded you into that
fine piece of furniture. So if, if you can, there's
a link, I put it in our chat in, in the website there. If
(40:19):
you want to share that with your learners, feel free to take the assessment
and you can sign up for a 30 minute consultation once
you get the results back on that. Yeah, absolutely. And I just,
I love it because it touches on a lot, you know, especially
when you get on your website and you kind of go a little bit exploring
a little bit deeper into it. What really stands out
(40:41):
about to me and, and I think you will appeal to first responders
is it's a no nonsense approach to
assessments. No fluff. Yes, we, we,
most of us don't want to hear the fluff. I mean there's always going to
be the exception to the rule. But we want these straight
(41:02):
and hard truth. Even if we may not outwardly project that
sometimes we still do like to hear that and I
like that. How
do you foresee,
like you said, you've wrote the book, you've got the assessment. Where do you see
yourself now five years from now? Like do you, do you want
(41:26):
to keep expanding on that? Well, I, I do and I, I will tell you,
Brent, just on our conversation today, if, if I can make
any type of headway in the first responder world
to help build cultures of mentorship and,
and changing perspectives about investing in
young, in the, in the younger force members and, and
(41:49):
creating that environment where people feel deal that they're being invested in
not just here read this manual. But a true,
you know, transfer of not just knowledge but experience.
That would be huge. It in, in it would be a worthwhile cause.
You know, knowing the work that you guys and gals do all the time. Right.
(42:09):
I, I'd like to be an evangelist for that. I would
like to, to you know, really
spark the fire in, in people about
why this is important and, and the damage that we talked about
earlier that can happen if we let that divergent path continue to
go in opposite directions. Yep.
(42:32):
Because eventually there's going to be a ginormous disconnect. Oh
huge. And you know,
you're gonna tip one way or the other. And that kind of scares me a
little bit. You know, it really does. I,
like I said, I know a lot of the older
officers, you know, through my Father or just,
(42:54):
you know, being at some agencies. And, like, then
there's, like I said, there's just that. That shift somewhere in there
of the lack of mentorship, whether
it be, you know, people leaving agencies and they just
not kind of like you said, they just went somewhere else.
But especially at the smaller agencies, there is that disconnect in there, and
(43:17):
we've really got to do a better job of addressing that moving forward.
Understood. Yeah, it is. I talk about that in
my last chapter of my book, and it's my call to action.
And, you know, bottom line, look,
if you feel you have opportunities, go
(43:38):
find a mentor. Don't be passive. Go find one. Be
better. Or if you're somebody that has that experience,
find an opportunity to give it back and help
that next generation. You're not going to be around for it, but who cares? That's
not why you're doing it. I love that. And I'm hoping that people
walk out with that spark. You know, there's. I.
(43:59):
I'm paraphrasing a line in the book, but there's no, there's no
greater crime than a spark unfanned that could change the
world. And I love that. Potentially, that's what's happening. So I got two
questions. Yeah. That I want to end on.
Okay, so one, I want you to tell her, because I'm gonna put it in
the notes anyways, but I want you to tell everybody where they can get your
(44:20):
book and they can find your website. But I'm
gonna keep the last one secret for when you're done because I. Okay, I. I
found something out and I want. I've gotta just. I gotta have a good note.
Okay. My. My website is
craftleadership. And you can go
there. You can find out about the programs that I teach. You can find out
(44:40):
about the keynotes. You can also link directly to
the Grit Index assessment from my website and link to my
book, which can also be found on Amazon.com and it's called
the Great Slapping the Power of Mentorship. Real,
real, real growth. Man, I'm telling you, it's been. It's a late
night. Real grow, Real Griff. Try. Can we
(45:04):
edit that? Real growth, real grit and real results. Thank
you for that. I love it. And here's what I want to end on. Yeah.
End on. Give me. You used to be a comedian.
I. I did. Tell me because I was reading the
pod match notes. Tell me your favorite
story from being a comedian.
(45:26):
Oh, I can.
And I will tell you that it's actually in my Book.
Okay. The comedy business is
cutthroat. When you start, you know, everybody starts
in their local area and they grow out. That local area
is so cutthroat because there's only so much stage time
(45:48):
and. And literally people will smile at you, turn around, they'll stab you in the
back to get that stage time. I had a different
kind of path to professional comedy. I was a musician and I was in a
comedy duo, kind of like the Smothers Brothers. So we wrote original
comedy music. So we would play bars, but we would also do comedy clubs. We
hosted an annual. We hosted a weekly comedy show in Milwaukee for. For two,
(46:10):
almost three years. And we ran into a DJ
who was also a professional comedian. His name was Dobie Maxwell. You can still find
him online. And we went in there doing something
completely different. But this guy's like, there's something about
these kids. Because we were young college students at that time.
And he took it on himself to
(46:33):
mentor us, to teach us the insides
of the comedy business, what to do, what not to do,
and incredibly generous with his time, incredibly
generous with his experience, and actually got us her first
paid gig, which is unheard of in the business. So that
romantic 30 year detective taking
(46:55):
somebody on his wing, that was my guy. That was my guy.
I will tell you my best experience because he was an
amazing guy, funny, but the best gentleman I've
ever met. Had an opportunity for open for Norm MacDonald at a hard Rock
live. And Norm, one of the
most genuine guys you will ever meet in your life, God rest his soul.
(47:18):
But that was a highlight for me. I can see that. I. He just seems
like a genuine guy. Yogi, it's been my pleasure.
You are welcome on my show anytime because you've been a great guest
and thank you, sir. Thank you. It's been an honor. I really enjoyed
our conversation. Immense, immensely. I really, absolutely. Guys, take
his assessment, apply it and help train the
(47:40):
next generation of first responders in having that good mentor in their life.
Amen.
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