June 24, 2025 • 59 mins
On this episode of The First Responder Playbook, I sat down with Marianne Rob and Dave Rich—veteran police officers and founders of UAP-PD—to dive into why so many first responders keep quiet about paranormal encounters on the job. We explored the stigma, the real risks to credibility and careers, and how their organization is giving officers and first responders a judgement-free zone to share their stories. From unexplainable 911 calls to mysterious sightings and their own first-hand experiences, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in the unknown—and the importance of community and support in high-pressure professions.
Link to their website: https://uap-pd.com/
#police #paranormal #firstresponder #firstresponders #ufo #bigfoot #ghosts #investigations
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Guys, welcome to the first responder playbook. I'm going a
little bit different direction tonight with you guys. My side passion in life, I love
the paranormal. And I have Marianne Rob and Dave Rich with me
with the UAP pd, a paranormal group out of
Arizona. And I want them to. I'm gonna let them do
the introduction and do themselves justice, because I know I won't.
(00:24):
But, guys, tell us a little bit about yourself. All right, well,
Marianne Rob, I was a police officer in Arizona for 34 years.
And one of my, I guess, hobbies, if you
call it, was being part of an organization
called mufon, which is the Mutual UFO Network here in
the Phoenix area. And I was a field
(00:46):
investigator with them. So if any call, any reports came in through
Arizona, whether lights in the sky or whatever they might have seen,
we'd go out, we'd do an interview, and if there was an
investigation, great, fantastic. We'd go take care of that.
Let me tell you a little bit about my background as a police officer. First
(01:07):
of all is that mostly I love working
patrol. That was my favorite. I spent out
of the 34 years, I would say at least a good
25 in patrol, because that, to me, that's where it is. That's where
all the fun starts. I've worked as a crime prevention
officer. I was a narcotics officer or detective,
(01:29):
property crimes detective, and an arson
detective through my time.
But as you know, as a cop, we learn how to
investigate, do great interviews, interrogations.
So getting back a little bit, the organization mufon, that's what
Dave and I were doing, is we were using our background as police
(01:51):
officers to assist the folks on
MUFON doing a good, thorough investigation.
So we were kind of doing that. And just,
oh, gosh, two and a half years ago, we were at a meeting
and they were talking about the disclosure that's supposed to be
(02:12):
coming, which I don't think we're ever going to see disclosure, but that's just
my opinion, and how
military pilots and commercial airline pilots are starting to
talk about things that they'd seen while they're up in the sky.
And they're like, it's baby
steps, but at least they're starting to talk. Then I was
(02:35):
talking to Dave, I go, look, military's talking, but have you
heard anything from law enforcement or first responders?
No. And I was thinking, okay,
well, why not? So get a hold of Dave.
And I said, you know, everybody else is talking. Why aren't law
enforcement and first responders talking about these things?
(02:59):
And Dave Tell us why they're not
talking. Well, give you a little bit of background on
mine to catch up, and then I'll kind of explain that to you. So 25
years as a police officer. Started in patrol, worked as a detective
in our gang unit. Then I was a homicide and sex crimes detective.
And then I ended my career working with alien life
(03:21):
forms. I was a high school sro, so you
can't get much more alien than that. So that's how I kind of
got involved in mufon. Is one of the people that worked at the school was
the. Was the assistant state director for Arizona.
And that's how Marianne and I, kind of that same person, was friends with
her, worked with me. We kind of all got together and created
(03:43):
a lesson plan for teaching people how to investigate. And so again,
get to. Back to where Marianne's story was. I get this phone call
out of the blue from her, and she's like, hey, cops are seeing stuff. Why
aren't we talking? And I said, well, I can tell you exactly why we're not
talking. In 2017,
I was working as the school resource officer at one of the high schools.
(04:05):
We ended up getting a 911 call from the front desk of the school.
I had a supervisor tell me that I needed to investigate it, try and figure
out what it was. Was it like a kid? It was on a Saturday, so
there's no students there, nobody going on. So our big
concern was, did somebody break into the school? Were they messing around with the phone
line, stuff like that? The call came in from the front desk of the
(04:26):
school. Patrol officers were dispatched to it because there was a voice on the line.
They make entries in an Xbox key. They search the entire building. They don't find
anybody there. They do find the phone off the receiver kind of laying on the
countertop, and it was the open line to the dispatcher. So the patrol
guy picks it up and talks to the dispatcher. So we know with 100 certainty
this was the phone in question. They search everything. They don't find
(04:50):
anything. I get involved in the investigation because, again, we want to make sure
nobody broke into the school, was using the phone. I pulled the security
footage from this call, came in just before noon. I pulled the
security footage from six o' clock in the morning all the way through.
That phone is almost dead center of the screen where this is
happening. And Brent, when that phone
(05:11):
call came in, there was nobody on that phone.
We took the audio and gave it to MUFON to see if they could
analyze it because Then my thought process is, well, maybe it's like a computer generated
thing. Maybe somebody hacked the system. The dispatcher was quick to point out,
that doesn't explain how the phone got off the hook though, and how the open
line was there. So that's true. So I do this full blown
(05:34):
investigation. I check everything from the security
footage, analyzing the audio, checking
everything from the phone box outside to see if somebody broke in and
tapped into the phone line, every possible lead that I could
because obviously I'm going to catch whoever did this because I. There's
clearly a logical explanation to this. I just need to figure out what
(05:56):
it is. Then I get the results back from the
phone and the video or the audio analysis.
And the guy who analyzes it looks at me and goes,
I don't know what you got, but this is not a human voice. And
I'm like, excuse me. Because it clearly sounds like a
woman speak speaking in a whispered voice,
(06:18):
conversation tone between her and the dispatcher.
Dispatcher Hey, 91 1, what's your emergency? Sounds like it says,
I'm scared. She says, what was that? It says, I'm scared.
She says, you're scared? And then it says no. And then you literally hear the
phone receiver get dropped onto the countertop. So
the guy, when he tells me there's, it's not a human voice. I'm looking around.
(06:40):
There was nobody at this phone when the call came in.
This. The officers, when they were doing a search, they went into the nurse's office,
which is right next to the front desk, and they encountered
something that neither of them could see. Literally physically pushed them out of the way.
And so the long story short is I'm left with this kind of like
(07:00):
I've ruled out every possible thing.
I don't want to say it's a ghost, but I can't come
up with any other explanation. And so this is where why
we don't talk about it. So I finally get this all done
and then I get that great call from upstairs. Hey, you need to
go talk to this detective sergeant upstairs. So I walk into
(07:23):
the room. He literally has the computer set up there with
the security footage. He has the audio recording
right there. Plays the audio recording, shows the video where
we don't see anybody at him. Looks at me and says, you expect me to
believe this? And I'm looking at him like, kind of confused, like, what
are you talking about? He's like, you expect me to believe this? I think you're
(07:45):
lying. I think you're making this up. I don't know what kind of scam
you're trying to pull. And at the time, I was, like,
kind of pissed because I was decorated officer at the time. Life saving award,
meritorious conduct, distinguished service, distinguished team citation,
all these ribbons on my uniform. And this guy's accusing me of
lying and making this up when he's got the video and the audio
(08:07):
right there. And so basically, he tells me to bury it
and don't talk about it. What I did not know at this time, but I
have since found out, is the two patrol officers that were there, they got
called into a different office with a command staff member who also told them
to bury it, and we walked away. Now, at the time,
I had six years left in my career. I had a young wife
(08:30):
and two young kids. And
so, like, when you're told. When you're called up, as you know, it's like you
get called upstairs and they tell you, you don't talk about it. You don't talk
about it. Exactly. For six years, I kept my mouth
shut, and it weighed on me because every time I
get called upstairs for something, is this the day? Is this the day that they're
(08:51):
going to be like, you ran your mouth too much because I wasn't talking. But
there were other people that were still commenting because it got to be pretty known
by a bunch of different people. And so. And then on top of that,
my wife was a teacher at the school district
where this happened. So again, I'm like, if I run my mouth, if I say
something, is that going to drag her? And is she going to come and tell
(09:11):
me that she's now in trouble? So I keep my mouth shut.
I don't say anything because of the threat to my career.
So when Marianne calls me and says, hey, why aren't police officers talking about
this? I'm like, I'll tell you exactly why. Because it's a threat to our
career. It's a threat to our credibility. It's a threat to, you know,
just straight up the believability factor. There's so many people out there that don't
(09:34):
believe that if you say it, you take
a hit, and then you have to live with that. And then you have. It's
an uphill battle every time you're doing something. I mean, it can go so far
as a defense attorney finds out that you're the cop that saw Bigfoot,
what's he gonna say? When you're out there on the stand testifying over, like, a
stolen vehicle or a burglary or some complaint Completely mundane thing.
(09:55):
He's going to ask if you saw Bigfoot and hope that the 12 people that
were too stupid to get out of jury duty don't. That they think
you're crazy. And so there's all these different
stigmas that officers and first responders face about
this. And so when I told her that there was another person that was kind
of there in the conversation, kind of listening in, and they were like, you
(10:17):
know what? You guys should probably talk about this, because a lot of people are
kind of of the opinion that law enforcement and first responders,
we're like, all part of this giant global conspiracy to hide the truth, and
we're gonna bury everything so nobody knows it. And I'm like, it has nothing
to do with that. It has to do with the very real threat to
my career, because if I get fired, I'm not gonna be able to get another
(10:39):
job as a police officer, because they're gonna ask, why'd you get fired? Because he
saw a ghost. And they're gonna be like, oh, yeah, I don't want that guy.
And so we ended up creating this organization,
uappd, based off of that, because we were told, hey, you guys
talking and telling people about this, kind of clear it up. And so
we created this organization for that. That very reason. Because
(11:02):
if it happened to me, we know it's happening to other people.
We know it's happening enough to other people that we have, like, gosh, how many
stories are we up to now? We're up to about 70. Probably about 70 different
original stories that nobody has heard of before from different
first responders all over. Not even just all over the country. We got one
from New Zealand. We. We got some from England.
(11:24):
These amazing stories from incredibly brave people who've dedicated
themselves to protecting others and were left in
that. That kind of limbo where I was. Where you're
trying to do everything right. You see something and you experience something that you can't
explain, and people are calling you out on it, and how do you defend
yourself? Because you saw it. It was real. Like, maybe it wasn't a
(11:46):
ghost, but it was strange, and you can't explain it. And it gets
lumped into this category of you're not. You're crazy.
And it's kind of sad. But we. We created this
organization for that purpose to give first responders somebody that
they can call and talk to that's not going to judge them, not going to
think they're crazy, help them out. Because some people,
(12:08):
like, we have people. We have officers that will come over. And when they walk
in, you can see how tense they are.
And as they tell the story, I usually break the ice with my story. I'll
be the first one to jump on that grenade. Hey, this is what happened to
me. And then it kind of lightens the mood a little bit. And then they
start to tell us the story about what they. What happened to them. And you
(12:29):
can physically see, like, their shoulders finally
droop and you can see the stress come off of them when they actually say
it. And so it's. It's amazing in that respect.
But at the end of the day, we're just trying to help these first responders
out, trying to help our brothers and sisters out who have experienced something that they
cannot explain and they have nowhere to go.
(12:51):
We're going to give them somewhere to go. That's awesome.
I, I agree with you in that
it's one of those things that people sometimes will talk about it,
but it's only in, like, around your buddies.
It's not. Not where, like, a majority of the department can
hear you. Definitely not where administration can hear you. And
(13:13):
that's what I was telling Marianne when I talk to her is like,
I'm to the point in my career. I don't care.
You know, people think I'm crazy. I mean, it is what it is. But I
know what I experienced, and I can't explain it. And I can't say
that, you know, I saw an alien or I can't say that, you know, I
dealt with ghosts. But something that I really can't explain,
(13:37):
and that's the foundation of police work, is,
hey, you know, we're here to investigate things and do it by
the book and do it properly. And that's what you guys are here for, is.
And that's what people need to realize is even if it turns out
to be something that you didn't really, you know, it ended up not being anything.
(13:57):
Okay, cool. We proof prove that, hey, this was not what you thought it was.
Yeah, exactly. And you know, that gives them peace of
mind. And if you can't, you can say, hey, like, we don't know what that
is. And I think that you guys are
doing an awesome job because there are so many
first responders that I know of that will. Will
(14:19):
say those things in kind of private, but they just. They won't come out and
say it because they're. Well, you know, what. What might the defense attorney say? Or
what might my buddy on shift might say. Exactly.
And there's got to be A way that, you know, we can
slowly start changing that, because I think we're at a
point in our, you know, in the world that
(14:44):
we can realize that there's a lot of things out there. We don't necessarily understand
or know totally what they are. And,
you know. Yeah,
than me you're working on. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because,
like, Marianne and I have talked about this before. Like, they're like. A lot of
people ask us, like, what is your end game? Like, what is the. The big
(15:06):
thing you're trying to accomplish other than just provide this safe place where
officers can talk and be protected, not have to worry about their information getting out
or anything like that. And it actually came from one of our stories
where we were interviewing an officer on the reservation
here about some encounters that he had. And when I told him what
happened to me, he was just completely shocked that I would get called
(15:28):
upstairs by a supervisor and basically accused of lying.
And we kind of slowly pieced together the idea of they
never have that problem on the Res because
their culture accepts those things as real. Star
people, spirits, skinwalkers, cryptids, Bigfoot, stuff like
that. It's so ingrained in their culture that the average
(15:50):
person in their. In their. Their community is like, oh, yeah,
yeah, those exist. Yeah, that's. Yeah. I don't really like seeing. They're like. It's like
a payphone. Like, I know pay phones exist, but I haven't seen one in forever.
But it's like that thing where when you get off of the Res
and into the. The. The other communities and stuff like that,
the cities, municipalities, they don't have that mindset.
(16:12):
You're still looked at as crazy. So when it comes down to the whole,
like, what is our end game? I'm not expecting us to be able
to sway all of community, but if we can push that
needle a little bit, make it so that people instead of
instinctively go, well, that guy's crazy, go, well, hey,
they saw something. Maybe it's not paranormal, maybe it's
(16:34):
not what they think, but they still saw something. Maybe we
should take the time to figure out what it is and not be judgmental.
If we can just push that needle a little bit in that
direction, maybe then our first responders can experience these things and not feel
like, hey, I can't say anything. I got to keep it all quiet. I got
to keep it all on down low. So I don't want to be seen as
crazy. And I think the first step is just getting to that, where
(16:58):
giving them an opportunity to talk in a safe environment.
And then we take that information and maybe we end up running the story
with other people. We do stage presentations, we do podcasts like this where we'll talk
about the stories that they've seen, where these credible, highly trained
individuals are seeing things that they can't explain. And we
get that out there and maybe in the process we can get
(17:21):
a little bit more of the buy in from the community and then we can
get that change. Yeah,
absolutely. How did you guys initially get
involved with mufon? Like, did y' all
initially have like a sighting of your own or. Actually,
I started. My late husband was the one. He was
(17:43):
into the UFOs. He read Van
Doniken's book the Chariots of the
Gods back in the day and he heard about
mufon and there was a conference in Scottsdale, Arizona and he
asked me, you know, back in 2014, he goes, can I go to this conference?
I'm like, knock yourself out. Go get him. You know, I was not
(18:04):
into this UFO's paranormal
did I know that there's got to be other life exists
in the universe, of course, but I just never saw
anything. So I'm like, you know what, you want to go to these conferences?
Go for it. About three, four months later, he asked me if
I'd go to a meeting with him. A MUFON meeting in Phoenix. Yeah,
(18:27):
okay, I'll go and I'll tell you right now. I was expecting
tinfoil hats. I was expecting weird people.
The speaker that they had that night was Kathleen
Martin, which if anybody out there, Betty and Barney
Hill story. Well, that was their niece,
Kathleen's their niece. And here I am, I'm a cop. So
(18:50):
I'm looking at body language. Is she making up stories? Is she lying
to us? I'm going to watch what she says, how she says it. I'm going
to going to do everything. I'm going to find out this is a made up
story. Well, I watched her for two hours talking and
there was no made up story. Everything I saw
was just, she wasn't being
(19:11):
deceptive at all. And I was like, wow, okay, maybe there is
something to this because there were no tinfoil hats. There were actually a lot
of people were that were into science
that were attending these meetings. So a little
bit more and more and more, the end of 2014
(19:32):
there, if you heard of Travis Walton, Skyfire Summit
up Northern Arizona got taken for five days.
They had a big conference up north. And we were, my
husband and I were asked to house Stanton
Friedman, Peter Robbins, and Richard Dolan. And I'm
like, okay, who's that? My. Both. My husband said it.
(19:55):
Oh, yeah, we, we. We got yelled at.
We were told who these guys are and don't ever ask that question again.
Which we never did. But that's how I got into
it. And then, of course, became a member, became a field investigator.
We teach the boot camps that we've had in the past,
and little at a time, I. What
(20:18):
MUFON now for, heck, I don't know, eight,
nine, ten years now,
but I have in my whole entire life. And I'm an
avid fisherman and hunter, and I'm out
patrol and everything else under the sky, the
big old sky. I have never to this day have encountered
(20:41):
any type of ufo, any type of cryptid,
or a paranormal experience.
It's all him. I lost a bet. No, I'm just
kidding. Basically, the. I was working, like
I said, at the one school, and the state director was the
assistant or the assistant state director worked at the school.
(21:03):
And believe it or not, the way that I actually got involved is I walked
in and I had heard on the radio because I had never.
I've never seen a UFO or anything like that either.
I. I walked in and made a joke about the planet Nibu
because I'd heard about it, and I was all like, you believe this is
like, this planet that's supposedly exactly the other side of the sun that we can
(21:25):
never see? And so I walked in and made a joke about it. And she's
like, oh, yeah, I'm a member of mufon. And I'm like, what's a mufon? And
so she kind of explains it to me. I was like, oh, okay.
And at that point, I had already had my experience, so I was willing to
take things with a little different grain than initially,
because, like I said, I'd never seen a ufo, but I also had never
(21:47):
seen a ghost before, and now I'm wondering about that. So I
was willing to kind of, like, accept it a little bit. And so after
I'd worked with her for a while, she ended up asking me about the idea
of, hey, is there any chance you would be willing to help
create a lesson plan to teach people how to
conduct investigations? And then she told me, because I've been friends with
(22:08):
Marianne, like, for 20 some odd years at this point, but I didn't know that
she was actually involved in MUFON until Stacy told me. And I was like,
really? I was, like, kind of shocked. And I was like yeah. So we kind
of got together and kind of mashed heads together. And with my experience in
detectives, and I'm a basic and advanced forensic
interviewer from working sex crimes and everything like that,
(22:31):
we were able to kind of design like a real quick like hour, hour and
a half long, real basic, like kind of things that you can
look for when you're interviewing people. How to, how to take notes, how to
like read the room. Not really do we do a little bit of the body
mechanics and stuff like that to look for, for signs of deception. But it's really
more of like a basic, like how to take notes, how to
(22:53):
do it safely, working as a team and get some good
information out there and be not ask leading questions and be open
to letting them talk and get the story out and stuff like that and
don't interject. And so that's how kind of I got
involved. And then through that ended up becoming a field
investigator, got involved in a number of investigations.
(23:15):
Pretty much every investigation that I got involved in we were able to
100% prove was not an alien
spacecraft. I had everything from
astronomical bodies that were a mistaken identity to
like lights and stuff like that, like timed lights at a tennis court,
all the way up to flat out hoaxes. Like a guy
(23:38):
that basically taped a light behind a ceiling fan
and then put the camera on the ground and filmed it and claimed that he
was looking outside. And what he didn't know is that we could actually lighten the
room with the ambient light and we could see clear as day.
He taped the light up to the ceiling. We can see the ceiling fan and
everything like that. So that was basically how
(23:59):
I got involved. And then that's why she called me about the whole, hey, why
aren't they talking? And that's what kind of segued into move
on or into uapdm. Awesome.
So you guys get to a point and you guys branch out on your own.
Start uapd what necessary.
What necessated the change? What, what made you guys go out on
(24:22):
your own? I can answer for what
my in what caused me to do it was
MUFON is very, very specific to UFOs. And
they don't really like to talk about anything other than
UFOs. Crafts in the sky, lights in the sky.
My encounter had nothing to do with UFOs. A lot of the
(24:45):
encounters that we're seeing have nothing to do with UFOs. We've got cryptids,
we've got, we do have some UFO, but we've got cryptid. We've got paranormal, we've
got just strange things that we can't explain. And so I
think what caused us to go out on our own was
that realization that first responders are our primary focus.
It's not what they're seeing, it's who's seeing
(25:08):
it. And so in that respect, we kind of came at it from a different
angle where we have to go after what they're
seeing, not specifically what they saw.
So if it's a first responder who saw a ghost, we want to be there
for them. If it's a first responder who saw Bigfoot, we want to be there
for them. So because of that we're like, well, we're not ruling out anybody. I
(25:28):
don't care who, what the first responder saw, their first responder, they saw something,
I'm going to be there for them. And so because of that, it caused us
to almost have to branch outside of UFOs. And which
is great because I've always been more of a paranormal guy than a UFO guy.
Anyways, that's the stuff that fascinates me. The
ghosts, the demons, the demonic possession, stuff like that. That's,
(25:50):
that's where I really kind of like the adventure. And another
thing is when we were field investigators with mufon, we got a
call in from, I believe it was a firefighter that
they were doing training back in March of,
of 1990, 97
with the Phoenix Light. So supposedly they were
(26:13):
doing a. Huh. 5 Symington. There you
go. You gotta love the guy. Not.
But it was a joint police fire, believe it was a SWAT teams.
And they were doing this joint training mission
somewhere in Phoenix and they encountered the Phoenix Lights
and there was, oh my gosh, maybe 15, 16 of them.
(26:36):
So we got the report to contact this firefighter
and we contacted him, left the voicemail
and says, hey, this is us. And we also, I believe we even
identified ourselves as we are law enforcement officers, you know.
You know, please contact us back and tell us what's going on. Never heard
anything back from them. So that tells us probably
(26:59):
maybe this guy was like, hey, yeah, let me report it, this is
cool. But then all the other guys found out that he did and said, you
need to keep your mouth shut or we're all going to lose our job or
we're all going to be going to either the IA or the
Shrank because we're a bunch of crazy folks.
So he never contacted us back. And I really wish now
(27:22):
we can find that guy and we can say, look, come talk to
us, we are cops. We understand has nothing to do with
mufon. We're, we're not going to make a report, but we want for
him to call for, and this is just my opinion, but for the, this,
this guy to call, even Muon, he wanted to get that story out.
It sounded like it was bothering him. He didn't know where to go.
(27:44):
He heard about Muon, hey, great. So he sends out that,
you know, he, he makes that initial call and they
probably all told him to shut up and don't talk about it.
So I would love to be able to get hold of that guy and say,
look, there is a safe zone. There is. I know, granted, it's been
so many years ago, 25, six, whatever.
(28:09):
But we are here to help you.
And that's another reason why, because I guarantee, whether it's mufon, whether it's
the International UFO Bureau or whatever
organization, if you're law enforcement, first responder, you
see something you can't explain, there ain't no way that
you're going to contact those agencies and
(28:31):
say, oh yeah, let me tell you the report. Unless they're now
retired and they can care less.
So again, that's another reason why
we started what we're doing. We don't do a lot of investigations.
The only time we will actually go out and do an investigation
(28:51):
is if we get reports from say, one
specific location. Like we have,
that we've had six or seven different stories of paranormal
activity or cryptid activity in this one spot.
We'd be like, let's go out and see what we can find
in that area. Which we did find something in this one area.
(29:15):
But other than that, if it's just, if these folks want to just
tell us their stories, some remain anonymous, some be
identified. We're not going to go out, do any kind of
investigation. We're here to help you and, and to make
them understand you are a great cop, you're a great
firefighter, you're great paramedic, that you're not
(29:37):
crazy. You know, this has happened to people and that's, that's what we want
them to understand. We are the safe zone. They can give us a, you know,
give us a call. That's awesome
in having that in mind. What
kind of gold mine would that, when would that have been to be able to
(29:58):
get that firefighter to talk? I mean,
you're right because for him to even make that initial call,
that had to have been, you know, bothering him.
Yeah, yeah. Just to have like, it's it's
like most things, when one person talks, they kind of look around.
Everybody's like, oh. But then after a few minutes, they're like, well,
(30:21):
yeah, you know, I. I kind of saw something too. And it's kind
of like when you break that ice. So in a situation like that where we
got like 15, 20 first responders, if we could get a couple of them to
talk, then the others might be like, well, yeah, okay, they talk and
nothing bad happened to them. Let's go, let's go talk. Let's go. And
again, just to get those stories would be absolutely incredible.
(30:43):
Now, another thing is I've gone to groups of cops,
you know, going to a briefing. Well, what we
do is we hand out each person a card
because as you know, cops, we're not. We're all type A personalities.
We're great, we're fantastic. I'm not going to tell them about that, that
paranormal thing that I had at this house or
(31:05):
whatever, but they're going to keep quiet in a group.
But you get them singly where they get home, or they get in their
patrol car and they go, they're going to give you a call. And they said,
don't tell anybody, but I want to tell you about the situation that I had.
And we don't. We don't tell anybody. But I think that's the way we
would get stories is being
(31:27):
individuals, you know, contacting us away from
everybody else. Yeah, because all of these events, whether you
see it or not, it creates some sort of trauma, some sort of
mental trauma. And as first responders, I mean, you know what it's like. We
ain't nothing bothered us. We're gonna take care of business. That's what we're there for.
But secretly, behind the scenes, you're like, wow, that was messed up.
(31:50):
Like, I don't know what that was. That was messed up. Even things without
the paranormal stuff, you go on some hot calls, you go on some, you
know, some deaths, some really bad, like assaults or,
or child things. Something that affects a child.
I don't care how tough you are on, on a certain level on the inside,
you're going to carry that and you're going to have that little bit of trauma.
(32:12):
But we always put up those walls. You know, we go on to the next
call, go take the next barking dog. But
that's the. That's like, kind of like why it works better.
Like Marion saying is you get them alone and like deep down
inside, they can admit to themselves they're having problems. It's hard to admit to other
people, but when you start seeing other people that do the job or have done
(32:33):
the job as you, and you start hearing about the stories that they've had,
sometimes it starts to kind of be like, okay, maybe I can talk to this
person. They're not going to think less of me. They're not going to think that
I'm crazy or I'm out of. Out of my mind because they
had something happen to them. So maybe it
is safe to talk. And that's all we're trying to do, is get that safe
(32:57):
feeling so that they can do it. Because that's. I hate to say it because
it sounds so cliche, but that's the first step towards recovery. It's the first step
towards getting that stress out of you is you get the story out
and. And realize I'm not alone. There's other
people that have had stuff happen. I don't have to face this by
myself. I have people that I can talk to and people that'll listen to me
(33:17):
and not judge me. And that's that first step to really moving past it.
Absolutely. You guys said you.
You found something on one of your. Your visits. I. I gotta
hear about this.
This is. Go ahead. This is your story.
I was only the camera person, and I didn't. I didn't see
(33:41):
anything, but. Okay, so
there's a. A reservation out here in Arizona that is pretty well
known, and there's a mission out on it, like. Like a. A church mission
that's out there. And it's in an area where it's
like. Like it's still Arizona. It's like the middle of the desert. Like,
you drive out to this place, it's like got a dirt road going past it.
(34:03):
There's like a dirt parking area in front of it. And there's like, no
houses for like a half mile. Like, it's in the middle of nowhere.
Sounds like rural Oklahoma. Yeah, yeah, but it's like rural
Arizona. So it's all dust and dirt.
We interview a number of officers. I want to say we had
four officers from this. This particular police
(34:25):
agency. And each guy gave us like, two stories.
And of those eight stories, like,
four of them all had to do with this one mission.
And so we're like, okay, that's weird. You know, and they were all
different sort. It wasn't like the same event happening. It
was. This guy had a story of these, like, red eyes that were seen in
(34:48):
the backseat. This guy had a story of like, a paranormal thing where they found
the doors kicked open and. And something weird happened. This guy saw
something run past the car that him and his ride along could not explain
what it was. So it was like all these different things. So, of
course we hear these stories, and it's about an hour from. Not even an hour
from here. And of course, you know, somebody gets the
(35:10):
brilliant idea, we should go out there and check it out. And
we're like, yeah, that sounds great. Let's do it. So there's two other
people that we work with, friends of ours, Jesse and Gwen, A husband and wife.
Jesse works in corrections. Gwen is a licensed
hypnotherapist. She also kind of knows
things, you know, if you get my meaning. Like, she sees stuff and
(35:33):
knows things. So the four of us go out to
this mission, and it's a Friday. It's, like, daylight
still, because like usual, you want to do a scout, see what it looks like.
So you go during the daytime so you can see what's going on, get a
good read of the land and everything like that. And then we were going to
kind of stay there until after dark and see if we saw anything or heard
(35:54):
anything, because this is brilliant for us to do. So
we go out there, we. We drive out there, we get
out. Marianne and Gwen stay towards the front, kind of looking at the front of
it. Jesse and I go walking around the back. We find a whole bunch of
stuff. I come walking up and I go, hey, there's a lot of activity here.
And everybody gets so excited. I'm like, nope, timeout. What I mean by that
(36:15):
is there's a whole bunch of broken bottles, and there's like a fire pit, and
there's quite a quad tracks. And so when I say activity, I mean there's like,
a lot of kids partying out here. Fire pits, things like that. Not
paranormal activity. Let's clarify. There's just a lot of stuff going
on. So we don't really get any real feeling or anything like that.
Gwen gets some things that she kind of mentions, but we basically wait there for
(36:36):
a good couple of hours, wait until the sun goes down. And it's
real quiet there because it's real far from, like, the main road. It's kind of
out in the middle of nowhere. And it gets dark. And
there's like one light behind the mission that's like. Because the mission makes
up. It's made up of, like, the main church building, and then
there's like, an annex building that's right next to it that's really small. And then
(36:58):
there's like a covered patio behind the annex building that's, like,
attached to it. And the only light is on
that back patio. So you have this one little area of light. The entire
thing is surrounded by a fence, so nobody gets there. So we're sitting
there and nothing happens. We're like, okay, well,
we're not seeing anything. We're not hearing anything. Nobody's getting any weird
(37:20):
feelings. It's now been a couple of hours. It's now dark.
We're like, okay, well, yeah, let's get going, you know. So
we had a cooler full of drinks and stuff like that. Like water,
Gatorade, stuff like that. So I take the cooler and
I put it in the bed of my pickup. And it's funny because, like, we're
in the middle of nowhere, but as we're talking, we're all kind of still whispering.
(37:42):
You know, it's funny, like, there's nobody there, but we're still kind of whispering back
and forth. But we're all standing at the back of the truck. And there's the
dirt road that goes past the mission. So I put the cooler in the back
of the truck, and I slammed the tailgate shut. And the only way I can
describe it is I slammed the tailgate shut. And it felt like a bolt of
electricity shot up my back. And something was like,
(38:03):
you need to turn around. And so I spin around and I look
down this dirt road past the mission, and I see
something come walking out from behind the mission.
And the only way I can describe it is it was probably about six and
a half to seven feet tall. It was
tan, like the perfectly colored to the
(38:26):
the background, where if it was daylight, it would be almost like
perfectly camouflaged to the back. It didn't have
hair on its body, but it had long shaggy hair hanging from its head.
And it kind of like, was like stumbling, walking out into the
road. And it stops in the middle of the road, and it kind of starts
wobbling back and forth, like, back and forth. And I'm looking
(38:47):
at this, and I'm like, what the hell?
Gwen looks at me and she's like, oh, my God. And I'm like, are
you seeing this? And she's like, yeah. Meanwhile,
Jesse's on the other side of Gwen, and Marianne is on the other side of
me. And they can't see anything, but the two of
us are looking at this going, what the hell is that? And then a
(39:09):
second thing that I can only describe as being
crawling on all fours. It looked like a weird kind of
humanoid sort of thing. And it was like, black on black.
It was pitch black. You couldn't tell what it was. It comes crawling out
into the middle of the road between us, and it's like standing between
us and this thing that's kind of wobbling back and forth. And then it charges
(39:31):
forward about, like, three, four steps to the point where I literally
sweep my coat aside and I grab my gun and I'm like, literally stop.
Gwen's like, we need to go. I'm like, yeah, we need
to go. So everybody walks back to the truck. Like, I'm backing
up, like, kind of looking at it. And. And then I look back at the
truck to see where the door is, and I look back and they're gone.
(39:53):
And I'm like, okay, time to leave. So we jump in the truck
and we take off and we drive all the way down, like a half mile,
almost a mile to this Chevron, which became a joke because
everybody that had an experience that they told us, they all said they got
out of there and got to the chevron and stopped at the chevron. After we
see this thing, we beat feet to the Chevron and we stopped at the chevron.
(40:15):
As I'm getting out of the Chevron, I'm like, now I understand why everybody runs
to the Chevron. Because it's the first place of light and people
well lit. Yes. So we grab some drinks. Now, the entire
time that I'm driving away, I'm like, we couldn't. I couldn't have really
seen that. That, that. No, there's no way. So we decide
we're going to stop and get something to eat. So we drive back to our
(40:36):
side of town and we stop at the Cracker Barrel. Free plug for the Cracker
Barrel. By the time we get to the Cracker Barrel, I have
completely convinced myself that I didn't see anything and that this was just, I don't
know, crazy trick of the light, something like that. I can't. I don't know
what it was, but it's clearly wasn't what I
saw. I must be losing my mind. I'm crazy.
(40:58):
So we're sitting there at the dinner and Jesse, Gwen are there, Marianne sitting
next to me, and I'm telling them, I don't know. We must. It's crazy. We
must not have seen anything. Meanwhile, this one's monkeying around with the video
camera that she was playing with while we were there. Well, that's it. I was
filming this whole time we were at the mission. I was
filming all over the place. And I wasn't expecting to see anything, so I'm. I'm
(41:20):
kind of doing this. But I was filming when they said they
were looking down this road. I had my camera on there. I
couldn't see anything. It was dark. But I had that camera and it was
recording down that road. So. Yeah. So she hands
me the camera and says, what's this? And I look
on the video, and clear as day, you can see something.
(41:44):
It does not look like what I saw, but it looks
like a giant humanoid like shimmer or
blur that literally walks out from behind.
Exactly like it was. Stops in the middle of the road. And you can
literally see this thing kind of wobbling back and forth in the
road and then she pans off before the second thing comes out.
(42:06):
But we took that video and sent it to. I don't know if you guys
know Mark d' Antonio, the. Okay, Mark Antonio,
very well known video and photograph analysis guy. He works
with mufon, works with the US Government. He is like,
pretty much up here with. If you have anything, you send it to him. He's
going to analyze it, and if it's garbage, he is going to flat out tell
(42:27):
you it's garbage. And he will tell you, this is what it is. This is
an artifact. This is a trick of the light. This is this. This is that.
We sent him that video and he sent. Came back to us and said,
I don't know what you got, but it looks humanoid. It walks into
the road and it's moving back and forth. And he's like, this is not a
trick of the light. This is not an artifact. This is not a hoax.
(42:48):
He's like, I don't know what you have. So
that kind of sealed it for us. We were like, okay, we. We really caught
something here. And so then I don't know if you've heard
of John Dover and Stan Milford, the Navajo Rangers.
I. I've heard the Nava Rangers, I've not heard. I wasn't familiar with their actual
(43:08):
names. Yeah, John. So being in
Arizona, Unsolved Mysteries. Yes. Those guys.
Yep. Being in Arizona, we are very good friends with them.
Okay. John comes down. Whenever John and Stan come down to the Valley,
they actually stay at Marianne's house. That's their base of operation.
So John's down for, like, we just having like, a party and stuff like that.
(43:30):
This is a couple months after we had this encounter, and it
happened out on the Res. And so I. I'm sitting there with John, and
John is like my number one source for Anything paranormal that's on the res,
he and I talk about it. And it's great because to have
somebody that's that knowledgeable, who trusts you with information,
it. It's crazy. So I'm looking at him
(43:53):
like, hey, John, we. We got something. And he's like,
what? And so I kind of explained the whole thing to him. I'm like, I
don't know what it is. But Mark looked at it. He says, there's something there.
We don't know what it is. This is what I saw. And John's like,
I can tell you exactly what it is. And I'm. I'd stop. And I'm looking
at him like, what? And so he proceeds to tell me that
(44:15):
his belief is that it was a skinwalker. And the reason he
says that it. It was two skinwalkers is he says that
skinwalkers, when they change from about
10 or 15 minutes, their eyesight is not good. They. Because they're
going from seeing infrared to seeing normal. So he's like,
what basically happened is you guys were quiet. He's.
(44:37):
It's walking out. You slam the tailgate shut. That
was the first time it heard something. So it turns and looks and it's wobbling
back and forth because it's trying to see what made that noise.
The second one, he said, they'll, they'll transform at separate
times. One's covering the other one's back. And so it
ran around to. Because it could see what we are.
(44:59):
That's why. Charge forward. Saw me reach for my gun and it stopped. Because its
job is to protect its friend. And so then we beat feet out of
there and I'm like, wow, that's
like, unbelievable. But again, every time I'm sitting
here thinking it's unbelievable, then I come back to this video and I'm like, what
the heck is this in the video? And
(45:22):
so that is the. We learned a valuable
lesson about going out and checking things.
That's such an awesome story. And I was kind of
wondering if you were gonna go and tell me if you thought it was skinwalkers,
just because that's a big Native American tradition, especially
in the American Southwest.
(45:44):
But I was also wondering, you know, people say Bigfoot
sometimes, you know, cloaks itself
and. Are you familiar with what Sasquatch Chronicles is?
No, I actually have not. He's a pretty big
podcaster and it's a great show. And he has a lot of first responder themed
episodes too. Oh, nice. But he is,
(46:08):
in some of his episodes, he's talked About Bigfoot spider crawling.
Yeah. That would be how I would describe that second
one is because it was kind of like, like crawling,
like on the ground, almost like in a horror movie, how you see him crawling
up walls and stuff like that. It was crawling like that. Yeah.
And he's talked about there's several people that seen what they thought were
(46:29):
Bigfoot spider crawling. And when you first
described it, that's what popped in my mind was, I've heard this before.
So you might reach out to him. He's on YouTube and all the streaming
platforms, because I'm sure he's got a little bit more information than
I do on that. But, man, when you. You told me that, I was like,
oh, my gosh, I've heard this before. Well, that's such an awesome
(46:52):
story. Good for confirmation. I'm not crazy. Yeah.
And, you know, I. I told Marianne this story.
When I was a new officer, they would. At a small municipal agency,
they would kind of have us covered dispatch
at night, and if a dispatcher
(47:15):
was sick, and I'll never forget, I was the only one in there. It was
summertime. We're a small town. You know what a sally port is?
Yeah. So we had the sally port door open just because officers
would pull up and walk in. That way we didn't have to buzz them in.
And I'm watching TV, it's like 3 o' clock in the morning, and
the next thing I know, a big wooden door just
(47:35):
slams shut. And of course, I about fall out of my
chair, you know, I'm like half awake already. And I reach
for my gun. I'm looking at the cameras like, hey, did somebody sneak in here?
Somebody playing a joke on me? And we had a very
small municipal jail. It had three people that was built in the
early 1900s. So it still had the old school, like, lock and key.
(47:56):
Big, heavy metal door. And so I go in
there, and this door, that's a big, heavy wooden door
that goes out of the booking area into, like, a little dispatcher's office.
I open it up, and there's a big clipboard
that is just laying in the floor that was on a big, heavy nail.
And there's not any way that like, it could have just like,
(48:20):
fell off or was knocked off by the air conditioner. And I went back
and I pulled the footage, and you see the door slamming shut and you see
the clipboard go flying. But there's definitely, like, nobody in
there, and there wasn't anybody in the police. I called one of my partners up
there and we cleared the. The whole building. So I was like, man, first I
thought they were playing a joke on me. You know, they snuck up and, oh,
(48:41):
you're gonna doze knoff or something. We're gonna scare you. But then I was
like, man, maybe somebody broke into here. They're trying to steal something
or something. And I could never
really explain what happened.
I don't. I. I just.
(49:01):
I don't feel like it was anything that could have just happened by an air
conditioner, like, blowing the door closed or anything like that.
And, you know, to this day, kind of like you with that. You're like, man,
I don't know what happened, or, you know, I don't know what I saw. And
I'm like, I feel like I know what I
saw, but, you know, I can't say, oh, my God, that was a ghost.
(49:23):
It's hard to say, isn't it? You know, so many bad
things happen, you know, at those type of things, and
who knows? There might be residual haunting there. I. I don't know.
But I. I love how you're just like, yeah, I. I don't know what
I saw. I saw something. Don't know what it was. Yeah. And that's
one of the things we like to do, is we never try and label it.
(49:44):
When officers are telling us it's, well, ask them, hey, what do you think it
is? If you don't know, you don't have to know. We're not going to, like,
say, oh, well, I think it's this. It's what you believe it is.
And maybe we'll do some research. Maybe we'll find something out together.
But a lot of times I think of these things, and it's like,
you know, I use this example during our stage presentations and stuff
(50:06):
like that. Like, if you took a cell phone and went back 100 years ago
and showed that cell phone to somebody, they're going to look at it like it's
magic. And then if you take some sort of piece of technology
from back then that we would look at as being completely archaic and go
100 years further back, those people are going to look at both of
those pieces of technology the same, that they're magic. Even though
(50:28):
we look at one as being archaic and the other one is being completely
mundane, a lot of the stuff that we experience
I'm hesitant to label, because how do we know it's not something that
50 to 100 years from now we're gonna know, like, oh, it's this.
And it was nothing after all we don't know, but right now
it's unknown and I think that's kind of cool.
(50:51):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I,
I don't want to tie you guys up all night. So I got a couple
more questions. What is your
absolute favorite law enforcement paranormal story?
I know mine. Mine is Lonnie Zamora, the New Mexico
State police officer that saw the UFO. It was a 50s or 60s
(51:12):
time frame that was like one of the first,
I remember, like first responder stories I, I remember hearing.
And so that one's always stuck out to me. If you two had to choose
one of your favorite, like each, what would it be?
Mine would be the Val Johnson, Minnesota.
Because familiar with that one. Okay, Warren,
(51:33):
Minnesota. I don't have the, I want
to say in the 70s, I believe,
1970s approximate. He was on
patrol, middle of the night, he was on the highway and he looks off to
his left and he sees this big
white, looks like a lot a light, you
(51:55):
know, he wasn't sure. Did a,
did a, does it have. 1977, August
27, 1979. Guess what I found?
That's awesome. But he sees this light just off the
roadway. So he's thinking, was it a plane crash, was it a, a
car crash? He had no clue what was going on. So he turns down the
(52:18):
other highway and he's going down. And as he's approaching, all of
a sudden this big white light goes through,
crashes through his windshield and hits him in the chest. And he called
it like a 200 pound pillow hitting him in the chest,
knocks him out. He kind of coasts to
the side of the road. He's out for,
(52:42):
oh gosh, few minutes. He gets on the radio and I have the radio
dispatcher, he says, I don't know what happened.
Something hit my window, hit something, my vehicle. So
first responders get there, they get him checked out, they send him to
the hospital. Well, at the hospital they said that both of his
eyes had what they call arc welder type
(53:05):
burns. Both of his eyes and both
his jaw, upper and lower jaw were actually
cracked at the, at the gum line.
So something hit him. They had
the Motorola or at that time GM or
(53:25):
Motorola went out and they checked the whole
area and they checked the vehicle and
they're like, I have no idea what hit this car.
And they called it, as, as they said the technical terms was a thing hit
his car. That's all they could explain. Ford went
out, they can't explain it. What was
(53:48):
interesting is it might be there today.
His car is actually at the historical Museum,
I think, in Warren, Minnesota. Yeah, Warren, Minnesota. But
Marshall County. Marshall County. And what was interesting about
this car, when you look at it, the
damage to the car goes on the driver's side. It goes
(54:11):
the headlights, it dents the hood,
then it hits the windshield, goes up and hits the light
bar, then goes straight back and hits two
antennas. Bends the antennas on the back.
Now if it's a rock, it's a bird, it's anything. It's
going to ping off as soon as it hits the. The front bumper. It's going
(54:34):
to pain. It's going to go anywhere. This thing went, went up and over
him, nowhere else. There's no other damage.
This people came out to
interview him. His story never changed. His. It
even said the chief of police believed what happened to
(54:54):
him, but nobody could. Could actually answer
what in the world that light was that went and hit him and went up
and over his car. So first of all, I want to go to
Warren County, Minnesota or Marshall County, Minnesota. I want
to see that car myself. But to me, that was
one of the really cool stories that, that, that I've researched.
(55:18):
I love that. I've never heard of that one. I'm definitely gonna do my research
on that. I love that. For, for me,
it's, it's gonna be. I'm gonna use the. The cheap cop out.
My favorite paranormal story involving a police officer was the one that started
uappd, and it was my story because
that irrefutable proof of something.
(55:39):
And like, we already talked about that. So I won't take up any more of
your time. But yeah, I. I still have the audio recording.
I still have the video surveillance that I kept. And it,
it made me realize that that was the first time
I really realized that there's stuff in this world that we can't explain.
And more importantly, other people are seeing it. And
(56:01):
it's the, The Sarah origin story.
And I'm. I hate to say this and sounds goofy, but
having the time of my life. I spent 25 years as a cop
helping people. And then I did a job after I retired that I did not
like for the first time I can remember working on this project and
seeing these people. I truly feel like I'm helping again. Exactly. And so
(56:23):
without that story and without the horror that I went through
for six years after seeing it, we wouldn't be
here. And so to me, that's my favorite story because
it's, it's what got us to here. I love it. I love
it. If anybody wants to, I Know you guys have your own
show and then your website and everything. Tell everybody where
(56:46):
they can find you guys and how to get a hold of you and how
they can listen to your show. Okay, well, we don't have a show,
unfortunately. We don't have a show. We got a project working, but has nothing to
do with any kind of radio show, podcast. Because all we're doing, like
I says, is we're. We want to
get the officers, first responders to feel comfortable coming to us,
(57:07):
not, oh, they have a show. So as soon as we tell them, they're gonna
broadcast it on a podcast. So we don't want to do that. We haven't.
We don't do. Yeah, we don't have a show, but they can contact
us@uap-pd.com
Again, you got to put that little dash. So
it's uap-pd.com. we also have a
(57:29):
Facebook page, UAP PD.
So please contact us either way.
On our website. There is a. At the bottom it
says, contact us. All you do is you can put your name
and write us a message. And I get that through our
(57:49):
email and I'll get right back to you guys. And
I'd love to talk to you on the phone, but there. I know there's law
enforcement. First responders are like, who are these two people? Are we really
real? Are we. Do we really have. Okay, wait a minute. Badge.
Are we really cops or retired cops? If
someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to us over the phone,
(58:12):
I would have no problem getting on the next plane and
head to whatever state you're in, driving.
If you're in Arizona, wherever, I will come to you and
talk to you in person. Get to know you and you get to know who
I am. I am, you know, a real person.
I am, you know, I want them to feel comfortable. I've had that.
(58:36):
Up in K, Arizona, we had a case. The gal
said, I'm not going to tell you over the phone, but I will
tell you the story in person. Next day, I
was headed up to Kienta, which is on the Navajo reservation up north.
And it was an amazing story, and she showed me everywhere this
occurred. So please contact us.
(59:00):
Dave knows the stress that you're under,
and we want to have you release that stress you don't
need as a cop. As you all know and first responders, we already have enough
stress every day. You don't need the added stress. And that's.
That's what we're here for.
UAP-PD Otherwise, you end
(59:21):
up with the University of Arizona Police Department. They aren't going to
help you the way we will, so
remember the dash. That's awesome. Well, guys, thank you so
much for joining me. It was my pleasure. And you guys are welcome back here
anytime. Awesome. Thank you so much for having us. It's been
great. Absolutely. You guys have a good night. You, too. Thank you. Thanks.
Guys, welcome to the first responder playbook. I'm going a
little bit different direction tonight with you guys. My side passion in life, I love
the paranormal. And I have Marianne Rob and Dave Rich with me
with the UAP pd, a paranormal group out of
Arizona. And I want them to. I'm gonna let them do
the introduction and do themselves justice, because I know I won't.
(00:24):
But, guys, tell us a little bit about yourself. All right, well,
Marianne Rob, I was a police officer in Arizona for 34 years.
And one of my, I guess, hobbies, if you
call it, was being part of an organization
called mufon, which is the Mutual UFO Network here in
the Phoenix area. And I was a field
(00:46):
investigator with them. So if any call, any reports came in through
Arizona, whether lights in the sky or whatever they might have seen,
we'd go out, we'd do an interview, and if there was an
investigation, great, fantastic. We'd go take care of that.
Let me tell you a little bit about my background as a police officer. First
(01:07):
of all is that mostly I love working
patrol. That was my favorite. I spent out
of the 34 years, I would say at least a good
25 in patrol, because that, to me, that's where it is. That's where
all the fun starts. I've worked as a crime prevention
officer. I was a narcotics officer or detective,
(01:29):
property crimes detective, and an arson
detective through my time.
But as you know, as a cop, we learn how to
investigate, do great interviews, interrogations.
So getting back a little bit, the organization mufon, that's what
Dave and I were doing, is we were using our background as police
(01:51):
officers to assist the folks on
MUFON doing a good, thorough investigation.
So we were kind of doing that. And just,
oh, gosh, two and a half years ago, we were at a meeting
and they were talking about the disclosure that's supposed to be
(02:12):
coming, which I don't think we're ever going to see disclosure, but that's just
my opinion, and how
military pilots and commercial airline pilots are starting to
talk about things that they'd seen while they're up in the sky.
And they're like, it's baby
steps, but at least they're starting to talk. Then I was
(02:35):
talking to Dave, I go, look, military's talking, but have you
heard anything from law enforcement or first responders?
No. And I was thinking, okay,
well, why not? So get a hold of Dave.
And I said, you know, everybody else is talking. Why aren't law
enforcement and first responders talking about these things?
(02:59):
And Dave Tell us why they're not
talking. Well, give you a little bit of background on
mine to catch up, and then I'll kind of explain that to you. So 25
years as a police officer. Started in patrol, worked as a detective
in our gang unit. Then I was a homicide and sex crimes detective.
And then I ended my career working with alien life
(03:21):
forms. I was a high school sro, so you
can't get much more alien than that. So that's how I kind of
got involved in mufon. Is one of the people that worked at the school was
the. Was the assistant state director for Arizona.
And that's how Marianne and I, kind of that same person, was friends with
her, worked with me. We kind of all got together and created
(03:43):
a lesson plan for teaching people how to investigate. And so again,
get to. Back to where Marianne's story was. I get this phone call
out of the blue from her, and she's like, hey, cops are seeing stuff. Why
aren't we talking? And I said, well, I can tell you exactly why we're not
talking. In 2017,
I was working as the school resource officer at one of the high schools.
(04:05):
We ended up getting a 911 call from the front desk of the school.
I had a supervisor tell me that I needed to investigate it, try and figure
out what it was. Was it like a kid? It was on a Saturday, so
there's no students there, nobody going on. So our big
concern was, did somebody break into the school? Were they messing around with the phone
line, stuff like that? The call came in from the front desk of the
(04:26):
school. Patrol officers were dispatched to it because there was a voice on the line.
They make entries in an Xbox key. They search the entire building. They don't find
anybody there. They do find the phone off the receiver kind of laying on the
countertop, and it was the open line to the dispatcher. So the patrol
guy picks it up and talks to the dispatcher. So we know with 100 certainty
this was the phone in question. They search everything. They don't find
(04:50):
anything. I get involved in the investigation because, again, we want to make sure
nobody broke into the school, was using the phone. I pulled the security
footage from this call, came in just before noon. I pulled the
security footage from six o' clock in the morning all the way through.
That phone is almost dead center of the screen where this is
happening. And Brent, when that phone
(05:11):
call came in, there was nobody on that phone.
We took the audio and gave it to MUFON to see if they could
analyze it because Then my thought process is, well, maybe it's like a computer generated
thing. Maybe somebody hacked the system. The dispatcher was quick to point out,
that doesn't explain how the phone got off the hook though, and how the open
line was there. So that's true. So I do this full blown
(05:34):
investigation. I check everything from the security
footage, analyzing the audio, checking
everything from the phone box outside to see if somebody broke in and
tapped into the phone line, every possible lead that I could
because obviously I'm going to catch whoever did this because I. There's
clearly a logical explanation to this. I just need to figure out what
(05:56):
it is. Then I get the results back from the
phone and the video or the audio analysis.
And the guy who analyzes it looks at me and goes,
I don't know what you got, but this is not a human voice. And
I'm like, excuse me. Because it clearly sounds like a
woman speak speaking in a whispered voice,
(06:18):
conversation tone between her and the dispatcher.
Dispatcher Hey, 91 1, what's your emergency? Sounds like it says,
I'm scared. She says, what was that? It says, I'm scared.
She says, you're scared? And then it says no. And then you literally hear the
phone receiver get dropped onto the countertop. So
the guy, when he tells me there's, it's not a human voice. I'm looking around.
(06:40):
There was nobody at this phone when the call came in.
This. The officers, when they were doing a search, they went into the nurse's office,
which is right next to the front desk, and they encountered
something that neither of them could see. Literally physically pushed them out of the way.
And so the long story short is I'm left with this kind of like
(07:00):
I've ruled out every possible thing.
I don't want to say it's a ghost, but I can't come
up with any other explanation. And so this is where why
we don't talk about it. So I finally get this all done
and then I get that great call from upstairs. Hey, you need to
go talk to this detective sergeant upstairs. So I walk into
(07:23):
the room. He literally has the computer set up there with
the security footage. He has the audio recording
right there. Plays the audio recording, shows the video where
we don't see anybody at him. Looks at me and says, you expect me to
believe this? And I'm looking at him like, kind of confused, like, what
are you talking about? He's like, you expect me to believe this? I think you're
(07:45):
lying. I think you're making this up. I don't know what kind of scam
you're trying to pull. And at the time, I was, like,
kind of pissed because I was decorated officer at the time. Life saving award,
meritorious conduct, distinguished service, distinguished team citation,
all these ribbons on my uniform. And this guy's accusing me of
lying and making this up when he's got the video and the audio
(08:07):
right there. And so basically, he tells me to bury it
and don't talk about it. What I did not know at this time, but I
have since found out, is the two patrol officers that were there, they got
called into a different office with a command staff member who also told them
to bury it, and we walked away. Now, at the time,
I had six years left in my career. I had a young wife
(08:30):
and two young kids. And
so, like, when you're told. When you're called up, as you know, it's like you
get called upstairs and they tell you, you don't talk about it. You don't talk
about it. Exactly. For six years, I kept my mouth
shut, and it weighed on me because every time I
get called upstairs for something, is this the day? Is this the day that they're
(08:51):
going to be like, you ran your mouth too much because I wasn't talking. But
there were other people that were still commenting because it got to be pretty known
by a bunch of different people. And so. And then on top of that,
my wife was a teacher at the school district
where this happened. So again, I'm like, if I run my mouth, if I say
something, is that going to drag her? And is she going to come and tell
(09:11):
me that she's now in trouble? So I keep my mouth shut.
I don't say anything because of the threat to my career.
So when Marianne calls me and says, hey, why aren't police officers talking about
this? I'm like, I'll tell you exactly why. Because it's a threat to our
career. It's a threat to our credibility. It's a threat to, you know,
just straight up the believability factor. There's so many people out there that don't
(09:34):
believe that if you say it, you take
a hit, and then you have to live with that. And then you have. It's
an uphill battle every time you're doing something. I mean, it can go so far
as a defense attorney finds out that you're the cop that saw Bigfoot,
what's he gonna say? When you're out there on the stand testifying over, like, a
stolen vehicle or a burglary or some complaint Completely mundane thing.
(09:55):
He's going to ask if you saw Bigfoot and hope that the 12 people that
were too stupid to get out of jury duty don't. That they think
you're crazy. And so there's all these different
stigmas that officers and first responders face about
this. And so when I told her that there was another person that was kind
of there in the conversation, kind of listening in, and they were like, you
(10:17):
know what? You guys should probably talk about this, because a lot of people are
kind of of the opinion that law enforcement and first responders,
we're like, all part of this giant global conspiracy to hide the truth, and
we're gonna bury everything so nobody knows it. And I'm like, it has nothing
to do with that. It has to do with the very real threat to
my career, because if I get fired, I'm not gonna be able to get another
(10:39):
job as a police officer, because they're gonna ask, why'd you get fired? Because he
saw a ghost. And they're gonna be like, oh, yeah, I don't want that guy.
And so we ended up creating this organization,
uappd, based off of that, because we were told, hey, you guys
talking and telling people about this, kind of clear it up. And so
we created this organization for that. That very reason. Because
(11:02):
if it happened to me, we know it's happening to other people.
We know it's happening enough to other people that we have, like, gosh, how many
stories are we up to now? We're up to about 70. Probably about 70 different
original stories that nobody has heard of before from different
first responders all over. Not even just all over the country. We got one
from New Zealand. We. We got some from England.
(11:24):
These amazing stories from incredibly brave people who've dedicated
themselves to protecting others and were left in
that. That kind of limbo where I was. Where you're
trying to do everything right. You see something and you experience something that you can't
explain, and people are calling you out on it, and how do you defend
yourself? Because you saw it. It was real. Like, maybe it wasn't a
(11:46):
ghost, but it was strange, and you can't explain it. And it gets
lumped into this category of you're not. You're crazy.
And it's kind of sad. But we. We created this
organization for that purpose to give first responders somebody that
they can call and talk to that's not going to judge them, not going to
think they're crazy, help them out. Because some people,
(12:08):
like, we have people. We have officers that will come over. And when they walk
in, you can see how tense they are.
And as they tell the story, I usually break the ice with my story. I'll
be the first one to jump on that grenade. Hey, this is what happened to
me. And then it kind of lightens the mood a little bit. And then they
start to tell us the story about what they. What happened to them. And you
(12:29):
can physically see, like, their shoulders finally
droop and you can see the stress come off of them when they actually say
it. And so it's. It's amazing in that respect.
But at the end of the day, we're just trying to help these first responders
out, trying to help our brothers and sisters out who have experienced something that they
cannot explain and they have nowhere to go.
(12:51):
We're going to give them somewhere to go. That's awesome.
I, I agree with you in that
it's one of those things that people sometimes will talk about it,
but it's only in, like, around your buddies.
It's not. Not where, like, a majority of the department can
hear you. Definitely not where administration can hear you. And
(13:13):
that's what I was telling Marianne when I talk to her is like,
I'm to the point in my career. I don't care.
You know, people think I'm crazy. I mean, it is what it is. But I
know what I experienced, and I can't explain it. And I can't say
that, you know, I saw an alien or I can't say that, you know, I
dealt with ghosts. But something that I really can't explain,
(13:37):
and that's the foundation of police work, is,
hey, you know, we're here to investigate things and do it by
the book and do it properly. And that's what you guys are here for, is.
And that's what people need to realize is even if it turns out
to be something that you didn't really, you know, it ended up not being anything.
(13:57):
Okay, cool. We proof prove that, hey, this was not what you thought it was.
Yeah, exactly. And you know, that gives them peace of
mind. And if you can't, you can say, hey, like, we don't know what that
is. And I think that you guys are
doing an awesome job because there are so many
first responders that I know of that will. Will
(14:19):
say those things in kind of private, but they just. They won't come out and
say it because they're. Well, you know, what. What might the defense attorney say? Or
what might my buddy on shift might say. Exactly.
And there's got to be A way that, you know, we can
slowly start changing that, because I think we're at a
point in our, you know, in the world that
(14:44):
we can realize that there's a lot of things out there. We don't necessarily understand
or know totally what they are. And,
you know. Yeah,
than me you're working on. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because,
like, Marianne and I have talked about this before. Like, they're like. A lot of
people ask us, like, what is your end game? Like, what is the. The big
(15:06):
thing you're trying to accomplish other than just provide this safe place where
officers can talk and be protected, not have to worry about their information getting out
or anything like that. And it actually came from one of our stories
where we were interviewing an officer on the reservation
here about some encounters that he had. And when I told him what
happened to me, he was just completely shocked that I would get called
(15:28):
upstairs by a supervisor and basically accused of lying.
And we kind of slowly pieced together the idea of they
never have that problem on the Res because
their culture accepts those things as real. Star
people, spirits, skinwalkers, cryptids, Bigfoot, stuff like
that. It's so ingrained in their culture that the average
(15:50):
person in their. In their. Their community is like, oh, yeah,
yeah, those exist. Yeah, that's. Yeah. I don't really like seeing. They're like. It's like
a payphone. Like, I know pay phones exist, but I haven't seen one in forever.
But it's like that thing where when you get off of the Res
and into the. The. The other communities and stuff like that,
the cities, municipalities, they don't have that mindset.
(16:12):
You're still looked at as crazy. So when it comes down to the whole,
like, what is our end game? I'm not expecting us to be able
to sway all of community, but if we can push that
needle a little bit, make it so that people instead of
instinctively go, well, that guy's crazy, go, well, hey,
they saw something. Maybe it's not paranormal, maybe it's
(16:34):
not what they think, but they still saw something. Maybe we
should take the time to figure out what it is and not be judgmental.
If we can just push that needle a little bit in that
direction, maybe then our first responders can experience these things and not feel
like, hey, I can't say anything. I got to keep it all quiet. I got
to keep it all on down low. So I don't want to be seen as
crazy. And I think the first step is just getting to that, where
(16:58):
giving them an opportunity to talk in a safe environment.
And then we take that information and maybe we end up running the story
with other people. We do stage presentations, we do podcasts like this where we'll talk
about the stories that they've seen, where these credible, highly trained
individuals are seeing things that they can't explain. And we
get that out there and maybe in the process we can get
(17:21):
a little bit more of the buy in from the community and then we can
get that change. Yeah,
absolutely. How did you guys initially get
involved with mufon? Like, did y' all
initially have like a sighting of your own or. Actually,
I started. My late husband was the one. He was
(17:43):
into the UFOs. He read Van
Doniken's book the Chariots of the
Gods back in the day and he heard about
mufon and there was a conference in Scottsdale, Arizona and he
asked me, you know, back in 2014, he goes, can I go to this conference?
I'm like, knock yourself out. Go get him. You know, I was not
(18:04):
into this UFO's paranormal
did I know that there's got to be other life exists
in the universe, of course, but I just never saw
anything. So I'm like, you know what, you want to go to these conferences?
Go for it. About three, four months later, he asked me if
I'd go to a meeting with him. A MUFON meeting in Phoenix. Yeah,
(18:27):
okay, I'll go and I'll tell you right now. I was expecting
tinfoil hats. I was expecting weird people.
The speaker that they had that night was Kathleen
Martin, which if anybody out there, Betty and Barney
Hill story. Well, that was their niece,
Kathleen's their niece. And here I am, I'm a cop. So
(18:50):
I'm looking at body language. Is she making up stories? Is she lying
to us? I'm going to watch what she says, how she says it. I'm going
to going to do everything. I'm going to find out this is a made up
story. Well, I watched her for two hours talking and
there was no made up story. Everything I saw
was just, she wasn't being
(19:11):
deceptive at all. And I was like, wow, okay, maybe there is
something to this because there were no tinfoil hats. There were actually a lot
of people were that were into science
that were attending these meetings. So a little
bit more and more and more, the end of 2014
(19:32):
there, if you heard of Travis Walton, Skyfire Summit
up Northern Arizona got taken for five days.
They had a big conference up north. And we were, my
husband and I were asked to house Stanton
Friedman, Peter Robbins, and Richard Dolan. And I'm
like, okay, who's that? My. Both. My husband said it.
(19:55):
Oh, yeah, we, we. We got yelled at.
We were told who these guys are and don't ever ask that question again.
Which we never did. But that's how I got into
it. And then, of course, became a member, became a field investigator.
We teach the boot camps that we've had in the past,
and little at a time, I. What
(20:18):
MUFON now for, heck, I don't know, eight,
nine, ten years now,
but I have in my whole entire life. And I'm an
avid fisherman and hunter, and I'm out
patrol and everything else under the sky, the
big old sky. I have never to this day have encountered
(20:41):
any type of ufo, any type of cryptid,
or a paranormal experience.
It's all him. I lost a bet. No, I'm just
kidding. Basically, the. I was working, like
I said, at the one school, and the state director was the
assistant or the assistant state director worked at the school.
(21:03):
And believe it or not, the way that I actually got involved is I walked
in and I had heard on the radio because I had never.
I've never seen a UFO or anything like that either.
I. I walked in and made a joke about the planet Nibu
because I'd heard about it, and I was all like, you believe this is
like, this planet that's supposedly exactly the other side of the sun that we can
(21:25):
never see? And so I walked in and made a joke about it. And she's
like, oh, yeah, I'm a member of mufon. And I'm like, what's a mufon? And
so she kind of explains it to me. I was like, oh, okay.
And at that point, I had already had my experience, so I was willing to
take things with a little different grain than initially,
because, like I said, I'd never seen a ufo, but I also had never
(21:47):
seen a ghost before, and now I'm wondering about that. So I
was willing to kind of, like, accept it a little bit. And so after
I'd worked with her for a while, she ended up asking me about the idea
of, hey, is there any chance you would be willing to help
create a lesson plan to teach people how to
conduct investigations? And then she told me, because I've been friends with
(22:08):
Marianne, like, for 20 some odd years at this point, but I didn't know that
she was actually involved in MUFON until Stacy told me. And I was like,
really? I was, like, kind of shocked. And I was like yeah. So we kind
of got together and kind of mashed heads together. And with my experience in
detectives, and I'm a basic and advanced forensic
interviewer from working sex crimes and everything like that,
(22:31):
we were able to kind of design like a real quick like hour, hour and
a half long, real basic, like kind of things that you can
look for when you're interviewing people. How to, how to take notes, how to
like read the room. Not really do we do a little bit of the body
mechanics and stuff like that to look for, for signs of deception. But it's really
more of like a basic, like how to take notes, how to
(22:53):
do it safely, working as a team and get some good
information out there and be not ask leading questions and be open
to letting them talk and get the story out and stuff like that and
don't interject. And so that's how kind of I got
involved. And then through that ended up becoming a field
investigator, got involved in a number of investigations.
(23:15):
Pretty much every investigation that I got involved in we were able to
100% prove was not an alien
spacecraft. I had everything from
astronomical bodies that were a mistaken identity to
like lights and stuff like that, like timed lights at a tennis court,
all the way up to flat out hoaxes. Like a guy
(23:38):
that basically taped a light behind a ceiling fan
and then put the camera on the ground and filmed it and claimed that he
was looking outside. And what he didn't know is that we could actually lighten the
room with the ambient light and we could see clear as day.
He taped the light up to the ceiling. We can see the ceiling fan and
everything like that. So that was basically how
(23:59):
I got involved. And then that's why she called me about the whole, hey, why
aren't they talking? And that's what kind of segued into move
on or into uapdm. Awesome.
So you guys get to a point and you guys branch out on your own.
Start uapd what necessary.
What necessated the change? What, what made you guys go out on
(24:22):
your own? I can answer for what
my in what caused me to do it was
MUFON is very, very specific to UFOs. And
they don't really like to talk about anything other than
UFOs. Crafts in the sky, lights in the sky.
My encounter had nothing to do with UFOs. A lot of the
(24:45):
encounters that we're seeing have nothing to do with UFOs. We've got cryptids,
we've got, we do have some UFO, but we've got cryptid. We've got paranormal, we've
got just strange things that we can't explain. And so I
think what caused us to go out on our own was
that realization that first responders are our primary focus.
It's not what they're seeing, it's who's seeing
(25:08):
it. And so in that respect, we kind of came at it from a different
angle where we have to go after what they're
seeing, not specifically what they saw.
So if it's a first responder who saw a ghost, we want to be there
for them. If it's a first responder who saw Bigfoot, we want to be there
for them. So because of that we're like, well, we're not ruling out anybody. I
(25:28):
don't care who, what the first responder saw, their first responder, they saw something,
I'm going to be there for them. And so because of that, it caused us
to almost have to branch outside of UFOs. And which
is great because I've always been more of a paranormal guy than a UFO guy.
Anyways, that's the stuff that fascinates me. The
ghosts, the demons, the demonic possession, stuff like that. That's,
(25:50):
that's where I really kind of like the adventure. And another
thing is when we were field investigators with mufon, we got a
call in from, I believe it was a firefighter that
they were doing training back in March of,
of 1990, 97
with the Phoenix Light. So supposedly they were
(26:13):
doing a. Huh. 5 Symington. There you
go. You gotta love the guy. Not.
But it was a joint police fire, believe it was a SWAT teams.
And they were doing this joint training mission
somewhere in Phoenix and they encountered the Phoenix Lights
and there was, oh my gosh, maybe 15, 16 of them.
(26:36):
So we got the report to contact this firefighter
and we contacted him, left the voicemail
and says, hey, this is us. And we also, I believe we even
identified ourselves as we are law enforcement officers, you know.
You know, please contact us back and tell us what's going on. Never heard
anything back from them. So that tells us probably
(26:59):
maybe this guy was like, hey, yeah, let me report it, this is
cool. But then all the other guys found out that he did and said, you
need to keep your mouth shut or we're all going to lose our job or
we're all going to be going to either the IA or the
Shrank because we're a bunch of crazy folks.
So he never contacted us back. And I really wish now
(27:22):
we can find that guy and we can say, look, come talk to
us, we are cops. We understand has nothing to do with
mufon. We're, we're not going to make a report, but we want for
him to call for, and this is just my opinion, but for the, this,
this guy to call, even Muon, he wanted to get that story out.
It sounded like it was bothering him. He didn't know where to go.
(27:44):
He heard about Muon, hey, great. So he sends out that,
you know, he, he makes that initial call and they
probably all told him to shut up and don't talk about it.
So I would love to be able to get hold of that guy and say,
look, there is a safe zone. There is. I know, granted, it's been
so many years ago, 25, six, whatever.
(28:09):
But we are here to help you.
And that's another reason why, because I guarantee, whether it's mufon, whether it's
the International UFO Bureau or whatever
organization, if you're law enforcement, first responder, you
see something you can't explain, there ain't no way that
you're going to contact those agencies and
(28:31):
say, oh yeah, let me tell you the report. Unless they're now
retired and they can care less.
So again, that's another reason why
we started what we're doing. We don't do a lot of investigations.
The only time we will actually go out and do an investigation
(28:51):
is if we get reports from say, one
specific location. Like we have,
that we've had six or seven different stories of paranormal
activity or cryptid activity in this one spot.
We'd be like, let's go out and see what we can find
in that area. Which we did find something in this one area.
(29:15):
But other than that, if it's just, if these folks want to just
tell us their stories, some remain anonymous, some be
identified. We're not going to go out, do any kind of
investigation. We're here to help you and, and to make
them understand you are a great cop, you're a great
firefighter, you're great paramedic, that you're not
(29:37):
crazy. You know, this has happened to people and that's, that's what we want
them to understand. We are the safe zone. They can give us a, you know,
give us a call. That's awesome
in having that in mind. What
kind of gold mine would that, when would that have been to be able to
(29:58):
get that firefighter to talk? I mean,
you're right because for him to even make that initial call,
that had to have been, you know, bothering him.
Yeah, yeah. Just to have like, it's it's
like most things, when one person talks, they kind of look around.
Everybody's like, oh. But then after a few minutes, they're like, well,
(30:21):
yeah, you know, I. I kind of saw something too. And it's kind
of like when you break that ice. So in a situation like that where we
got like 15, 20 first responders, if we could get a couple of them to
talk, then the others might be like, well, yeah, okay, they talk and
nothing bad happened to them. Let's go, let's go talk. Let's go. And
again, just to get those stories would be absolutely incredible.
(30:43):
Now, another thing is I've gone to groups of cops,
you know, going to a briefing. Well, what we
do is we hand out each person a card
because as you know, cops, we're not. We're all type A personalities.
We're great, we're fantastic. I'm not going to tell them about that, that
paranormal thing that I had at this house or
(31:05):
whatever, but they're going to keep quiet in a group.
But you get them singly where they get home, or they get in their
patrol car and they go, they're going to give you a call. And they said,
don't tell anybody, but I want to tell you about the situation that I had.
And we don't. We don't tell anybody. But I think that's the way we
would get stories is being
(31:27):
individuals, you know, contacting us away from
everybody else. Yeah, because all of these events, whether you
see it or not, it creates some sort of trauma, some sort of
mental trauma. And as first responders, I mean, you know what it's like. We
ain't nothing bothered us. We're gonna take care of business. That's what we're there for.
But secretly, behind the scenes, you're like, wow, that was messed up.
(31:50):
Like, I don't know what that was. That was messed up. Even things without
the paranormal stuff, you go on some hot calls, you go on some, you
know, some deaths, some really bad, like assaults or,
or child things. Something that affects a child.
I don't care how tough you are on, on a certain level on the inside,
you're going to carry that and you're going to have that little bit of trauma.
(32:12):
But we always put up those walls. You know, we go on to the next
call, go take the next barking dog. But
that's the. That's like, kind of like why it works better.
Like Marion saying is you get them alone and like deep down
inside, they can admit to themselves they're having problems. It's hard to admit to other
people, but when you start seeing other people that do the job or have done
(32:33):
the job as you, and you start hearing about the stories that they've had,
sometimes it starts to kind of be like, okay, maybe I can talk to this
person. They're not going to think less of me. They're not going to think that
I'm crazy or I'm out of. Out of my mind because they
had something happen to them. So maybe it
is safe to talk. And that's all we're trying to do, is get that safe
(32:57):
feeling so that they can do it. Because that's. I hate to say it because
it sounds so cliche, but that's the first step towards recovery. It's the first step
towards getting that stress out of you is you get the story out
and. And realize I'm not alone. There's other
people that have had stuff happen. I don't have to face this by
myself. I have people that I can talk to and people that'll listen to me
(33:17):
and not judge me. And that's that first step to really moving past it.
Absolutely. You guys said you.
You found something on one of your. Your visits. I. I gotta
hear about this.
This is. Go ahead. This is your story.
I was only the camera person, and I didn't. I didn't see
(33:41):
anything, but. Okay, so
there's a. A reservation out here in Arizona that is pretty well
known, and there's a mission out on it, like. Like a. A church mission
that's out there. And it's in an area where it's
like. Like it's still Arizona. It's like the middle of the desert. Like,
you drive out to this place, it's like got a dirt road going past it.
(34:03):
There's like a dirt parking area in front of it. And there's like, no
houses for like a half mile. Like, it's in the middle of nowhere.
Sounds like rural Oklahoma. Yeah, yeah, but it's like rural
Arizona. So it's all dust and dirt.
We interview a number of officers. I want to say we had
four officers from this. This particular police
(34:25):
agency. And each guy gave us like, two stories.
And of those eight stories, like,
four of them all had to do with this one mission.
And so we're like, okay, that's weird. You know, and they were all
different sort. It wasn't like the same event happening. It
was. This guy had a story of these, like, red eyes that were seen in
(34:48):
the backseat. This guy had a story of like, a paranormal thing where they found
the doors kicked open and. And something weird happened. This guy saw
something run past the car that him and his ride along could not explain
what it was. So it was like all these different things. So, of
course we hear these stories, and it's about an hour from. Not even an hour
from here. And of course, you know, somebody gets the
(35:10):
brilliant idea, we should go out there and check it out. And
we're like, yeah, that sounds great. Let's do it. So there's two other
people that we work with, friends of ours, Jesse and Gwen, A husband and wife.
Jesse works in corrections. Gwen is a licensed
hypnotherapist. She also kind of knows
things, you know, if you get my meaning. Like, she sees stuff and
(35:33):
knows things. So the four of us go out to
this mission, and it's a Friday. It's, like, daylight
still, because like usual, you want to do a scout, see what it looks like.
So you go during the daytime so you can see what's going on, get a
good read of the land and everything like that. And then we were going to
kind of stay there until after dark and see if we saw anything or heard
(35:54):
anything, because this is brilliant for us to do. So
we go out there, we. We drive out there, we get
out. Marianne and Gwen stay towards the front, kind of looking at the front of
it. Jesse and I go walking around the back. We find a whole bunch of
stuff. I come walking up and I go, hey, there's a lot of activity here.
And everybody gets so excited. I'm like, nope, timeout. What I mean by that
(36:15):
is there's a whole bunch of broken bottles, and there's like a fire pit, and
there's quite a quad tracks. And so when I say activity, I mean there's like,
a lot of kids partying out here. Fire pits, things like that. Not
paranormal activity. Let's clarify. There's just a lot of stuff going
on. So we don't really get any real feeling or anything like that.
Gwen gets some things that she kind of mentions, but we basically wait there for
(36:36):
a good couple of hours, wait until the sun goes down. And it's
real quiet there because it's real far from, like, the main road. It's kind of
out in the middle of nowhere. And it gets dark. And
there's like one light behind the mission that's like. Because the mission makes
up. It's made up of, like, the main church building, and then
there's like, an annex building that's right next to it that's really small. And then
(36:58):
there's like a covered patio behind the annex building that's, like,
attached to it. And the only light is on
that back patio. So you have this one little area of light. The entire
thing is surrounded by a fence, so nobody gets there. So we're sitting
there and nothing happens. We're like, okay, well,
we're not seeing anything. We're not hearing anything. Nobody's getting any weird
(37:20):
feelings. It's now been a couple of hours. It's now dark.
We're like, okay, well, yeah, let's get going, you know. So
we had a cooler full of drinks and stuff like that. Like water,
Gatorade, stuff like that. So I take the cooler and
I put it in the bed of my pickup. And it's funny because, like, we're
in the middle of nowhere, but as we're talking, we're all kind of still whispering.
(37:42):
You know, it's funny, like, there's nobody there, but we're still kind of whispering back
and forth. But we're all standing at the back of the truck. And there's the
dirt road that goes past the mission. So I put the cooler in the back
of the truck, and I slammed the tailgate shut. And the only way I can
describe it is I slammed the tailgate shut. And it felt like a bolt of
electricity shot up my back. And something was like,
(38:03):
you need to turn around. And so I spin around and I look
down this dirt road past the mission, and I see
something come walking out from behind the mission.
And the only way I can describe it is it was probably about six and
a half to seven feet tall. It was
tan, like the perfectly colored to the
(38:26):
the background, where if it was daylight, it would be almost like
perfectly camouflaged to the back. It didn't have
hair on its body, but it had long shaggy hair hanging from its head.
And it kind of like, was like stumbling, walking out into the
road. And it stops in the middle of the road, and it kind of starts
wobbling back and forth, like, back and forth. And I'm looking
(38:47):
at this, and I'm like, what the hell?
Gwen looks at me and she's like, oh, my God. And I'm like, are
you seeing this? And she's like, yeah. Meanwhile,
Jesse's on the other side of Gwen, and Marianne is on the other side of
me. And they can't see anything, but the two of
us are looking at this going, what the hell is that? And then a
(39:09):
second thing that I can only describe as being
crawling on all fours. It looked like a weird kind of
humanoid sort of thing. And it was like, black on black.
It was pitch black. You couldn't tell what it was. It comes crawling out
into the middle of the road between us, and it's like standing between
us and this thing that's kind of wobbling back and forth. And then it charges
(39:31):
forward about, like, three, four steps to the point where I literally
sweep my coat aside and I grab my gun and I'm like, literally stop.
Gwen's like, we need to go. I'm like, yeah, we need
to go. So everybody walks back to the truck. Like, I'm backing
up, like, kind of looking at it. And. And then I look back at the
truck to see where the door is, and I look back and they're gone.
(39:53):
And I'm like, okay, time to leave. So we jump in the truck
and we take off and we drive all the way down, like a half mile,
almost a mile to this Chevron, which became a joke because
everybody that had an experience that they told us, they all said they got
out of there and got to the chevron and stopped at the chevron. After we
see this thing, we beat feet to the Chevron and we stopped at the chevron.
(40:15):
As I'm getting out of the Chevron, I'm like, now I understand why everybody runs
to the Chevron. Because it's the first place of light and people
well lit. Yes. So we grab some drinks. Now, the entire
time that I'm driving away, I'm like, we couldn't. I couldn't have really
seen that. That, that. No, there's no way. So we decide
we're going to stop and get something to eat. So we drive back to our
(40:36):
side of town and we stop at the Cracker Barrel. Free plug for the Cracker
Barrel. By the time we get to the Cracker Barrel, I have
completely convinced myself that I didn't see anything and that this was just, I don't
know, crazy trick of the light, something like that. I can't. I don't know
what it was, but it's clearly wasn't what I
saw. I must be losing my mind. I'm crazy.
(40:58):
So we're sitting there at the dinner and Jesse, Gwen are there, Marianne sitting
next to me, and I'm telling them, I don't know. We must. It's crazy. We
must not have seen anything. Meanwhile, this one's monkeying around with the video
camera that she was playing with while we were there. Well, that's it. I was
filming this whole time we were at the mission. I was
filming all over the place. And I wasn't expecting to see anything, so I'm. I'm
(41:20):
kind of doing this. But I was filming when they said they
were looking down this road. I had my camera on there. I
couldn't see anything. It was dark. But I had that camera and it was
recording down that road. So. Yeah. So she hands
me the camera and says, what's this? And I look
on the video, and clear as day, you can see something.
(41:44):
It does not look like what I saw, but it looks
like a giant humanoid like shimmer or
blur that literally walks out from behind.
Exactly like it was. Stops in the middle of the road. And you can
literally see this thing kind of wobbling back and forth in the
road and then she pans off before the second thing comes out.
(42:06):
But we took that video and sent it to. I don't know if you guys
know Mark d' Antonio, the. Okay, Mark Antonio,
very well known video and photograph analysis guy. He works
with mufon, works with the US Government. He is like,
pretty much up here with. If you have anything, you send it to him. He's
going to analyze it, and if it's garbage, he is going to flat out tell
(42:27):
you it's garbage. And he will tell you, this is what it is. This is
an artifact. This is a trick of the light. This is this. This is that.
We sent him that video and he sent. Came back to us and said,
I don't know what you got, but it looks humanoid. It walks into
the road and it's moving back and forth. And he's like, this is not a
trick of the light. This is not an artifact. This is not a hoax.
(42:48):
He's like, I don't know what you have. So
that kind of sealed it for us. We were like, okay, we. We really caught
something here. And so then I don't know if you've heard
of John Dover and Stan Milford, the Navajo Rangers.
I. I've heard the Nava Rangers, I've not heard. I wasn't familiar with their actual
(43:08):
names. Yeah, John. So being in
Arizona, Unsolved Mysteries. Yes. Those guys.
Yep. Being in Arizona, we are very good friends with them.
Okay. John comes down. Whenever John and Stan come down to the Valley,
they actually stay at Marianne's house. That's their base of operation.
So John's down for, like, we just having like, a party and stuff like that.
(43:30):
This is a couple months after we had this encounter, and it
happened out on the Res. And so I. I'm sitting there with John, and
John is like my number one source for Anything paranormal that's on the res,
he and I talk about it. And it's great because to have
somebody that's that knowledgeable, who trusts you with information,
it. It's crazy. So I'm looking at him
(43:53):
like, hey, John, we. We got something. And he's like,
what? And so I kind of explained the whole thing to him. I'm like, I
don't know what it is. But Mark looked at it. He says, there's something there.
We don't know what it is. This is what I saw. And John's like,
I can tell you exactly what it is. And I'm. I'd stop. And I'm looking
at him like, what? And so he proceeds to tell me that
(44:15):
his belief is that it was a skinwalker. And the reason he
says that it. It was two skinwalkers is he says that
skinwalkers, when they change from about
10 or 15 minutes, their eyesight is not good. They. Because they're
going from seeing infrared to seeing normal. So he's like,
what basically happened is you guys were quiet. He's.
(44:37):
It's walking out. You slam the tailgate shut. That
was the first time it heard something. So it turns and looks and it's wobbling
back and forth because it's trying to see what made that noise.
The second one, he said, they'll, they'll transform at separate
times. One's covering the other one's back. And so it
ran around to. Because it could see what we are.
(44:59):
That's why. Charge forward. Saw me reach for my gun and it stopped. Because its
job is to protect its friend. And so then we beat feet out of
there and I'm like, wow, that's
like, unbelievable. But again, every time I'm sitting
here thinking it's unbelievable, then I come back to this video and I'm like, what
the heck is this in the video? And
(45:22):
so that is the. We learned a valuable
lesson about going out and checking things.
That's such an awesome story. And I was kind of
wondering if you were gonna go and tell me if you thought it was skinwalkers,
just because that's a big Native American tradition, especially
in the American Southwest.
(45:44):
But I was also wondering, you know, people say Bigfoot
sometimes, you know, cloaks itself
and. Are you familiar with what Sasquatch Chronicles is?
No, I actually have not. He's a pretty big
podcaster and it's a great show. And he has a lot of first responder themed
episodes too. Oh, nice. But he is,
(46:08):
in some of his episodes, he's talked About Bigfoot spider crawling.
Yeah. That would be how I would describe that second
one is because it was kind of like, like crawling,
like on the ground, almost like in a horror movie, how you see him crawling
up walls and stuff like that. It was crawling like that. Yeah.
And he's talked about there's several people that seen what they thought were
(46:29):
Bigfoot spider crawling. And when you first
described it, that's what popped in my mind was, I've heard this before.
So you might reach out to him. He's on YouTube and all the streaming
platforms, because I'm sure he's got a little bit more information than
I do on that. But, man, when you. You told me that, I was like,
oh, my gosh, I've heard this before. Well, that's such an awesome
(46:52):
story. Good for confirmation. I'm not crazy. Yeah.
And, you know, I. I told Marianne this story.
When I was a new officer, they would. At a small municipal agency,
they would kind of have us covered dispatch
at night, and if a dispatcher
(47:15):
was sick, and I'll never forget, I was the only one in there. It was
summertime. We're a small town. You know what a sally port is?
Yeah. So we had the sally port door open just because officers
would pull up and walk in. That way we didn't have to buzz them in.
And I'm watching TV, it's like 3 o' clock in the morning, and
the next thing I know, a big wooden door just
(47:35):
slams shut. And of course, I about fall out of my
chair, you know, I'm like half awake already. And I reach
for my gun. I'm looking at the cameras like, hey, did somebody sneak in here?
Somebody playing a joke on me? And we had a very
small municipal jail. It had three people that was built in the
early 1900s. So it still had the old school, like, lock and key.
(47:56):
Big, heavy metal door. And so I go in
there, and this door, that's a big, heavy wooden door
that goes out of the booking area into, like, a little dispatcher's office.
I open it up, and there's a big clipboard
that is just laying in the floor that was on a big, heavy nail.
And there's not any way that like, it could have just like,
(48:20):
fell off or was knocked off by the air conditioner. And I went back
and I pulled the footage, and you see the door slamming shut and you see
the clipboard go flying. But there's definitely, like, nobody in
there, and there wasn't anybody in the police. I called one of my partners up
there and we cleared the. The whole building. So I was like, man, first I
thought they were playing a joke on me. You know, they snuck up and, oh,
(48:41):
you're gonna doze knoff or something. We're gonna scare you. But then I was
like, man, maybe somebody broke into here. They're trying to steal something
or something. And I could never
really explain what happened.
I don't. I. I just.
(49:01):
I don't feel like it was anything that could have just happened by an air
conditioner, like, blowing the door closed or anything like that.
And, you know, to this day, kind of like you with that. You're like, man,
I don't know what happened, or, you know, I don't know what I saw. And
I'm like, I feel like I know what I
saw, but, you know, I can't say, oh, my God, that was a ghost.
(49:23):
It's hard to say, isn't it? You know, so many bad
things happen, you know, at those type of things, and
who knows? There might be residual haunting there. I. I don't know.
But I. I love how you're just like, yeah, I. I don't know what
I saw. I saw something. Don't know what it was. Yeah. And that's
one of the things we like to do, is we never try and label it.
(49:44):
When officers are telling us it's, well, ask them, hey, what do you think it
is? If you don't know, you don't have to know. We're not going to, like,
say, oh, well, I think it's this. It's what you believe it is.
And maybe we'll do some research. Maybe we'll find something out together.
But a lot of times I think of these things, and it's like,
you know, I use this example during our stage presentations and stuff
(50:06):
like that. Like, if you took a cell phone and went back 100 years ago
and showed that cell phone to somebody, they're going to look at it like it's
magic. And then if you take some sort of piece of technology
from back then that we would look at as being completely archaic and go
100 years further back, those people are going to look at both of
those pieces of technology the same, that they're magic. Even though
(50:28):
we look at one as being archaic and the other one is being completely
mundane, a lot of the stuff that we experience
I'm hesitant to label, because how do we know it's not something that
50 to 100 years from now we're gonna know, like, oh, it's this.
And it was nothing after all we don't know, but right now
it's unknown and I think that's kind of cool.
(50:51):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I,
I don't want to tie you guys up all night. So I got a couple
more questions. What is your
absolute favorite law enforcement paranormal story?
I know mine. Mine is Lonnie Zamora, the New Mexico
State police officer that saw the UFO. It was a 50s or 60s
(51:12):
time frame that was like one of the first,
I remember, like first responder stories I, I remember hearing.
And so that one's always stuck out to me. If you two had to choose
one of your favorite, like each, what would it be?
Mine would be the Val Johnson, Minnesota.
Because familiar with that one. Okay, Warren,
(51:33):
Minnesota. I don't have the, I want
to say in the 70s, I believe,
1970s approximate. He was on
patrol, middle of the night, he was on the highway and he looks off to
his left and he sees this big
white, looks like a lot a light, you
(51:55):
know, he wasn't sure. Did a,
did a, does it have. 1977, August
27, 1979. Guess what I found?
That's awesome. But he sees this light just off the
roadway. So he's thinking, was it a plane crash, was it a, a
car crash? He had no clue what was going on. So he turns down the
(52:18):
other highway and he's going down. And as he's approaching, all of
a sudden this big white light goes through,
crashes through his windshield and hits him in the chest. And he called
it like a 200 pound pillow hitting him in the chest,
knocks him out. He kind of coasts to
the side of the road. He's out for,
(52:42):
oh gosh, few minutes. He gets on the radio and I have the radio
dispatcher, he says, I don't know what happened.
Something hit my window, hit something, my vehicle. So
first responders get there, they get him checked out, they send him to
the hospital. Well, at the hospital they said that both of his
eyes had what they call arc welder type
(53:05):
burns. Both of his eyes and both
his jaw, upper and lower jaw were actually
cracked at the, at the gum line.
So something hit him. They had
the Motorola or at that time GM or
(53:25):
Motorola went out and they checked the whole
area and they checked the vehicle and
they're like, I have no idea what hit this car.
And they called it, as, as they said the technical terms was a thing hit
his car. That's all they could explain. Ford went
out, they can't explain it. What was
(53:48):
interesting is it might be there today.
His car is actually at the historical Museum,
I think, in Warren, Minnesota. Yeah, Warren, Minnesota. But
Marshall County. Marshall County. And what was interesting about
this car, when you look at it, the
damage to the car goes on the driver's side. It goes
(54:11):
the headlights, it dents the hood,
then it hits the windshield, goes up and hits the light
bar, then goes straight back and hits two
antennas. Bends the antennas on the back.
Now if it's a rock, it's a bird, it's anything. It's
going to ping off as soon as it hits the. The front bumper. It's going
(54:34):
to pain. It's going to go anywhere. This thing went, went up and over
him, nowhere else. There's no other damage.
This people came out to
interview him. His story never changed. His. It
even said the chief of police believed what happened to
(54:54):
him, but nobody could. Could actually answer
what in the world that light was that went and hit him and went up
and over his car. So first of all, I want to go to
Warren County, Minnesota or Marshall County, Minnesota. I want
to see that car myself. But to me, that was
one of the really cool stories that, that, that I've researched.
(55:18):
I love that. I've never heard of that one. I'm definitely gonna do my research
on that. I love that. For, for me,
it's, it's gonna be. I'm gonna use the. The cheap cop out.
My favorite paranormal story involving a police officer was the one that started
uappd, and it was my story because
that irrefutable proof of something.
(55:39):
And like, we already talked about that. So I won't take up any more of
your time. But yeah, I. I still have the audio recording.
I still have the video surveillance that I kept. And it,
it made me realize that that was the first time
I really realized that there's stuff in this world that we can't explain.
And more importantly, other people are seeing it. And
(56:01):
it's the, The Sarah origin story.
And I'm. I hate to say this and sounds goofy, but
having the time of my life. I spent 25 years as a cop
helping people. And then I did a job after I retired that I did not
like for the first time I can remember working on this project and
seeing these people. I truly feel like I'm helping again. Exactly. And so
(56:23):
without that story and without the horror that I went through
for six years after seeing it, we wouldn't be
here. And so to me, that's my favorite story because
it's, it's what got us to here. I love it. I love
it. If anybody wants to, I Know you guys have your own
show and then your website and everything. Tell everybody where
(56:46):
they can find you guys and how to get a hold of you and how
they can listen to your show. Okay, well, we don't have a show,
unfortunately. We don't have a show. We got a project working, but has nothing to
do with any kind of radio show, podcast. Because all we're doing, like
I says, is we're. We want to
get the officers, first responders to feel comfortable coming to us,
(57:07):
not, oh, they have a show. So as soon as we tell them, they're gonna
broadcast it on a podcast. So we don't want to do that. We haven't.
We don't do. Yeah, we don't have a show, but they can contact
us@uap-pd.com
Again, you got to put that little dash. So
it's uap-pd.com. we also have a
(57:29):
Facebook page, UAP PD.
So please contact us either way.
On our website. There is a. At the bottom it
says, contact us. All you do is you can put your name
and write us a message. And I get that through our
(57:49):
email and I'll get right back to you guys. And
I'd love to talk to you on the phone, but there. I know there's law
enforcement. First responders are like, who are these two people? Are we really
real? Are we. Do we really have. Okay, wait a minute. Badge.
Are we really cops or retired cops? If
someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to us over the phone,
(58:12):
I would have no problem getting on the next plane and
head to whatever state you're in, driving.
If you're in Arizona, wherever, I will come to you and
talk to you in person. Get to know you and you get to know who
I am. I am, you know, a real person.
I am, you know, I want them to feel comfortable. I've had that.
(58:36):
Up in K, Arizona, we had a case. The gal
said, I'm not going to tell you over the phone, but I will
tell you the story in person. Next day, I
was headed up to Kienta, which is on the Navajo reservation up north.
And it was an amazing story, and she showed me everywhere this
occurred. So please contact us.
(59:00):
Dave knows the stress that you're under,
and we want to have you release that stress you don't
need as a cop. As you all know and first responders, we already have enough
stress every day. You don't need the added stress. And that's.
That's what we're here for.
UAP-PD Otherwise, you end
(59:21):
up with the University of Arizona Police Department. They aren't going to
help you the way we will, so
remember the dash. That's awesome. Well, guys, thank you so
much for joining me. It was my pleasure. And you guys are welcome back here
anytime. Awesome. Thank you so much for having us. It's been
great. Absolutely. You guys have a good night. You, too. Thank you. Thanks.
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