August 12, 2025 • 35 mins
Welcome to another episode of The First Responder Playbook! In today’s conversation, host Brent sits down with Derrick Van Mell, founder and principal of the Center for Management Terms and Practices. Derrick’s mission is simple yet powerful: building a global community of caring leaders who set the bar high when it comes to ethics and competence. Together, Brent and Derrick dive into the ongoing challenges facing first responders—especially around leadership, management standards, and the disconnects that can happen between frontline workers and administration.
Derrick shares insights from his extensive experience as a management consultant and shares practical strategies to bridge communication gaps, foster trust, and keep teams connected to their sense of purpose. He breaks down the often-blurred line between management and leadership, offering clear advice every first responder can use. The conversation also spotlights “the Index,” a free online toolkit for managers, and discusses key resources for effective meetings, planning, and professional development.
Whether you’re new to leadership or a seasoned first responder, this episode is packed with wisdom on strengthening teams, building better managers, and staying true to the values that make an agency great. Don’t miss Derrick’s tips for leading with empathy—and hear how any manager, regardless of their title, can make work meaningful for everyone on the team.
Check out Derrick : https://theindex.net/
Link to Derrick's books: https://amzn.to/4n0pPhx
Want to be a guest on The First Responder Playbook: Insights on Leadership and Training? Send Brent Colbert a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1748037097521814b71b1b454
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Guys, welcome to the new episode of the First Responder Playbook. It's my
pleasure to have Derek Van Mel on with me today. Derek is the founder and
principal of the center for Management Terms and Practices, the standards
body for general management. His personal mission is to build a
world community of caring leaders who live by the highest standards of ethics and
competence. Everyone deserves a boss that makes them feel safe,
(00:23):
appreciated and proud. Derek, thank you for joining me
tonight. Well, thanks, Brent. Glad to be with you. Yeah, I'm excited
to have you here. You know, kind of like we were talking about off air
a little bit is in law enforcement, you know, that I can speak
to directly. But first responders in general, there's need
for more standardized set of leaders,
(00:45):
leadership training, but just leaders in general that care
and, you know, can show some empathy to their people. They're leading.
And so I'm excited to have you tonight. Well, I hope I can help.
So let me ask you to start off,
how did you go down the leadership journey? Well, you know,
(01:06):
I started really as a generalist management consultant and
I had worked on big facility projects and they're planning.
So if you've been through it, even in, you know, law enforcement, you still
have decisions about, you know, where should our facilities be, where should the district
offices be. Right. You know, think through the
locations and then the design and layout. And then, you know, of
(01:28):
course, you know, how do you justify financially? And so I started that and
then I realized there was a lot of my clients who are in all
sectors, you know, really didn't have a long range plan. You know,
in the management world, we talk a lot about, you know, strategic planning and it's
all the press about strategy. But it's only like
we did a national study once. Less than 9% of organizations have a
(01:51):
plan they follow, which is kind of crazy. And then out
of that grew sort of an understanding that in the field
of management itself, you know, how you help people work together and how you lead
them, there was no set of standards, as you were saying, no
standards of competence, no standards of ethics. But
everybody remembers their best boss. Everybody remembers their worst boss, too.
(02:13):
And we know how important that is, not just for ourselves personally and how we
feel, but for performance, how we perform and our
team performs. And as first responders, well, that
really matters, right? That's. I don't have any first
responder experience, but I have a wife and daughter who are
nurses. So they're first responders in a way, right? Yeah, absolutely.
(02:37):
My wife was a respiratory nurse, so a Covid nurse
and. Well, she saw some things, right? Yep. And. And management,
you know, really matters how you, you know, how you deliver things on scene,
right? Yeah, absolutely.
I really want to talk about the difference
between, like, managers and leaders and your take, your take on that,
(03:00):
because in my opinion, there's a big difference there. And we have
that problem, especially in the first responder world. And people will
be given a title and they expect to be a leader from that
point forward, and you kind of have to earn that leadership title.
Well, you do. And, you know, as I was, as I was getting
prepared for our conversation, you know, and doing some research
(03:23):
about, you know, the roles of management in the first responder world
and the titles and, you know, the confusion between manager and
leader is really common. But I thought, I don't know if this will be helpful,
but I thought it might be helpful to think about management and leadership and those
questions and make a distinction between, you know, management and
leadership. When you're on scene, you know, when, when this stuff is
(03:45):
happening, and then management and leadership, you know,
at the unit or squad level or department level or
agency level, you lose. The principles are the same, but of course
the pace and style are different. So it might be helpful as
we go forward just to think about, you know, on scene versus behind the scenes,
if you will. So if that's useful. But your
(04:07):
question about the difference between manager and leader is they're not different people.
So a manager is someone who helps people work together. Again, you can picture
that when you're on scene, stuff's happening, right? And you're going by
instinct and training and you're helping people
work together. You're coordinating, like in the moment.
(04:27):
And that's also true, though, you know, when you're behind the scenes,
when time is not critical, you're still helping people work
together, different kinds of people. Now, a lead. So a manager is someone who helps
people work together, right? You can picture that. All first responders can picture
that on scene, certainly. And then a leader is someone who inspires people
to take a risk. And here's the thing, they are not different people.
(04:50):
Now you can say a manager is someone who also has, among other
skills and knowledge, leadership ability, right? They can set
a challenge, they can inspire people. You know, they can make success
possible, but they're not different people. And
there's so much confusion. We kind of. It's just sort of an ego thing to
say, you're a man, you're a leader instead of a manager. Somehow that's more important.
(05:12):
But it really doesn't make any sense. You just may be a manager without
strong leadership ability. I mean, you could also say you're a leader without
strong management ability. But there was a
Secretary of State James Baker years ago said, you know, a leader is
someone who, who knows what to do and then does. It sort of captures that
two sides of the same person. So that's, it's really
(05:35):
important, I think, not to, to break through that confusion. And then
as I was researching, you know, the first responder world and
titles, I was not surprised because I see this everywhere. You know, there's what
I call title soup. I sort of printed out some, made some notes,
right? Everything. You know, you have coordinators, you have officers, you got
planning managers, of course, you got the battalion leaders, you
(05:57):
know, on and on. So you got the titles of leader, director,
coordinator, planner. Well, they're all managers with
leadership, leadership responsibilities too. So
the titles can be really confusing. And that's
bad because, man, you really need to be clear of
what it means to be a manager when you accept that job.
(06:20):
And you really need to be clear about what your manage, what your leadership
responsibilities are. Again, in these two very different modes
that there are lots of people I'm certain in the first
responder world that are both on scene and have those
responsibilities. They're the unit leader, but they also have
maybe leadership responsibilities, management responsibilities
(06:41):
between incidents, and then they're sort of taking the longer view and broader
view. So, you know, you have to really be clear what those roles are.
So I don't know if that's clarifying. Maybe it's disappointing some people think
of themselves as a manager or leader, but you got to
be able to make stuff happen, you know, and wear the manager hat too.
No, I actually really enjoyed that distinction because that really
(07:04):
helped clear some things up and maybe some misconceptions even I had.
So I always tell people that this is not a
podcast of me knowing everything. I'm learning just as much as everybody
else listening. And so I really enjoyed that distinction there.
Good. You know what, what are
some things? Because we come from a very
(07:27):
paramilitaristic mindset for the
most time. What are some ways that we can work on,
you know, leadership to like improve that, like
middle management level of life? Because the problem we run into a
lot is you'll have your administration that's,
you know, a lot of times in a separate building or there at separate times
(07:50):
from you, and then you have your middle management that's there usually
the same time you are and stuff gets lost. In translation,
be it because of times or you know, just being in different
buildings, what are some ways that you can work on improving that
communication and trust? Well, you know,
the only way to motivate people is to give them meaningful work. And when you're
(08:14):
on the front lines, right, pretty clear that your work is
meaningful. You know, you're saving lives, protecting property, whether you're, you know,
whether you're a police officer, you know, firefighter,
you know, er, nurse, right. Fema. FEMA
coordinator. So the best way to
get through that, make that clear, is right to see how everybody connects to
(08:37):
the good that you do in the world. And when you're in a management role
and you're some, you know, a good manager, sometimes sort of stays in the background,
they're letting people in the front sort of get the credit, take it, be
accountable and get, get recognition so you can,
you start to get disconnected. And like you say, they're often in different buildings, and
that's a problem. So an analogy, maybe your listeners would find
(08:59):
this useful is because I've done a lot of work in healthcare. So let's, let's
just say picture you're in the operating room
and you're the surgeon. Just picture that for a moment. We've all seen it.
Either first responders have seen that in real life, or if not, you've seen
in the movies. And the surgeon looks real simple. Surgeon puts his or her hand
out and says, scalpel, right? And the operating nurse
(09:22):
slaps scalpel in the surgeon's hand.
And it's the right scalpel in their hand, handing it to them in the right
way. And it's always there just when you need it. And then that
happens hundreds of times in an operation.
Well, let's just think for a minute. What does it take to make that
simple transaction work? Scalpel.
(09:44):
There it is, right there. Well, you've got to hire the right nurses.
That's an administrator. You got to train them. You have to have enough
of them so you can cover odd shifts, right? You need the
logistics people who are ordering the scalpels and, and
literally thousands of other things and that's stockpiled.
Generally it's affordable and it's positioned
(10:05):
exactly right in the or. Of course, then you have the people
who are cleaning up central sterile linen,
bandages, supplies. Of course, if
you're in the bus on the way
to a car accident, you're thinking about you're taking your
emergency room with you, right? Same kind of thing. And,
(10:28):
and then to make all that happen, the hiring, the equipment, Information
systems. You have the facilities, people, you've got all these
hundreds and hundreds of people just to make that one transaction happen
right when it's supposed to happen. And so one thing I suggest
to people, when you feel like you're disconnected is
because when, as soon as you get disconnected, then you get us versus them, you
(10:51):
get tension and conflict and you lose sight of, you know, we're all in it
to save the patient, right. Or to, you know, help help the victim.
So map that out. Literally, I would just draw that on, draw it on a
big piece of paper. Here's how. All this stuff that people on
scene do to make sure that, you know,
when they reach for the gauze, they reach for the scissors, you know,
(11:13):
they need the gas. It's all right there. You have to take
a minute and appreciate what it took to, you know, to make that happen, both
in terms of supplies and personnel. So that,
that sometimes helps people if you, once they're connected
and they're connected to purpose, right. Helping the
victims, now you're on the same team
(11:35):
again. And that, that'll help people,
you know, communicate and appreciate their, the roles
of so called support. But, you know, it happens in
hospitals. You know, a lot of surgeons are accused of being sort of prima
donnas because they're the ones, you know, everybody can see they're making stuff happen.
And you need, you know, that role needs a certain attitude. Yeah, I get,
(11:59):
I get that. But need to remember that,
that that role does not function at all,
or certainly doesn't function well without, you know, a thousand other people,
you know, making that happen. So, I mean, I think you make a key point
there, and it's really something that ties in well with first responders is that
(12:20):
your title doesn't necessarily dictate how
you treat people. And you know, a
lot of times you'll see in the first responder world,
supervisors that kind of forget where they come
from as, as we all say on the
lower rungs, because they'll get into a supervisor's position
(12:42):
and they'll be like, well, I'm a corporal or I'm a sergeant now.
You know, I don't got to take calls or I don't have to, you know,
be out in the field as much. And it really
rubs a lot of the rank and file people the wrong way because,
well, when you were a patrolman, you wanted your supervisor to show up and
(13:02):
say, hey, is everything okay? Or hey, do you need anything?
And kind of like you said, like, you want to always be able to depend
on, you know, the right hand knowing what the left hand's doing. And
a lot of times, especially in the first responder world, we need
to really work on that communication and not
forgetting. Like, hey, you know, when you were in that position
(13:24):
as the patrolman, like, how did you want your
supervisor to treat you? And I think that's where we have a
lot of disconnect right now. Yeah, well, you know, you've
touched on maybe I think, the most important point, and that is, you
know, the drug of power, right? And we
all like to think that we're immune from that, right? Just like any
(13:46):
addict, but it's a drug
and it's addicting. And even, you know, the folks who had been on the front
lines, right, who said, you know,
they were never going to be that person, you know, who pushed
people around, you know, condescended, you know, didn't
use their power correctly. You know, we see that, we see
(14:09):
them transforming and, you know,
you can fault them, but you also have to realize, you know, just how
addictive that power is. And when you add power with
pressure, you know, and particularly in the
first responder environment, when, you know,
the, the person in the, in the, you know, in the emergency center,
(14:30):
right, in the war room or the battalion center is having
to call some difficult shots remotely. Because that happens, right?
Particularly in a really bad, you know, bad incident where you have multiple
units on call, you know, they're on the
spot and that, you know, so,
you know, you, you use that power, you have to use it, and then you
(14:53):
get addicted to it. So. But the way to deal with that is to talk
about it. And that's why one of the three of the
standards of management that comes first on our
list is what we call the pledge of managerial power. And it just
recognizes how much power even
someone who's managing just a couple people has over
(15:16):
their staff. The story I often tell, you know, I started off, I
was, you know, I had a degree in economics, which was, well, pretty much useless.
So my first job was I was basically a file clerk in a large real
estate project, folding drawings, right? A
little different than what I had planned for my life. But anyway, so one day
after like a year, I'm in the. I'm in the file room, I'm folding drawings.
(15:38):
HR director shows up in the doorway and says,
hey, Derek, here's your new assistant. And I, there's some tall, skinny kid next to
her. I'm sure you guys will get along. See ya. You know,
that was all the warning and training I got to be a manager, and that
was a long time ago, but I reflect. Like, did I make that kid's life
a living hell? I mean, I think I'm a nice guy. I don't think I
(16:00):
would use my power badly. But did I, you know. Right. Yeah, I
don't know. So when people use power, there's a couple things
to think about. Right. One is, you know, just be aware of it. And most
people aren't. You need to talk about it. And the pledge, which is all, by
the way, you know, it's free. We're the standards body, so all this is free
at our website, the index.net and it's
(16:21):
just one page and you know, it. The pledge itself
is a single page. It says, you know, you need to be aware of it,
you need to introspect and think about it. You need to deal with
people appropriately as individuals. And you need to set an intention,
you know, every day, how am I going to use my power, you know, to
be helpful? You know, there's a category of people who get addicted to power
(16:43):
and they become, you know, genuinely abusive. And
that's, that's a, you know, those are people who just need to go.
But, but there's still a distinction between people who, they
misuse their power sometimes they, you know, overstep, they
condescend, they micromanage, second guess,
and they have the authority to do that, which is annoying at least. Right.
(17:05):
But there's also, maybe you've seen this too. Even in law enforcement,
you got some bosses who don't use their power enough,
they don't decide enough, they don't get rid of the bad apples,
they don't fight for the resources that you really do need.
So how you use your power, it has to be a conversation.
(17:27):
And I found that most ethical
shortcomings or shortfalls don't happen because someone's bad.
I mean, I have seen that like, well, you're in law enforcement, I need to
tell you. Yeah, but often people make ethical mistakes
just simply because they're not aware of the situation that they're in and their influence
there. So one way
(17:50):
to deal with that is if you can get certainly someone with
a lot of authority, broader authority, to recognize, yeah, this is an issue
we don't want to have happen. What you're describing as someone comes up
from the front lines, promises are never going to be that guy. They
get promoted, then they do become that guy, and then people
get upset, they underperform, they quit.
(18:13):
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, especially because
once you kind of lose faith in that leadership, it's hard to
get back. Yeah. And you know, that's a
problem we're running into everywhere across America right now with
first responders is they're losing people left and right.
Yeah. If we can do a little bit better to at least make the
(18:35):
leadership better on top of it and the management that can at
least save one or two officers or firefighters or
paramedics, whatever it may be, then
let's do it. Because we can't, we can't afford to
lose any more people. I think every agency I know is, you know,
shorthanded and running from call to call. And so
(18:57):
I'm with you. I love that. But you mentioned it and
I want to talk about it because I've been checking it out and I really
enjoy it. Let's talk about the Index. Okay.
How did it come into about and kind of tell my
listeners what it is. Okay, so the, the
index is a sort of all purpose management utility.
(19:20):
Again, it's, you can get it for free from the index.net
you know, you subscribe, but there's no cost. And it
puts on one screen. Basically, you know, all of the
management disciplines, you know, it's sort of a four level tree
diagram, all fits on a screen. Work on a smartphone too.
You know, in the top level are things that, you know, in the first
(19:43):
responder world, you'd call it the administrative things. Right.
Outreach, hiring or hr, information
systems, finance, you know, and operations.
And then you click on one of those terms and then it leads you to,
it breaks that down to six more and then six more for each of those
terms. There's a clear definition, you know, and then
(20:06):
some discussion questions and also some, you know, best practice
resources. So one of the tricks in management
is that it's, you know, it's always uncertain, you know, you never
100% done. So the index is a tool to bring all that into focus and
to create a, you know, global standard. What do the basic terms of management mean?
And I, you know, I've worked with people, you know, in,
(20:29):
you know, most parts of the world and try to get six people to agree
what is marketing? You know, and then you
also get to people in certain sectors. It's true in healthcare and maybe in your
world. Oh, you don't say, oh, we don't do marketing. Well, yeah, you do. You
know, you're, you're doing, you know, you're telling the community about your
programs. Right. You know, you're getting people to come to events, you
(20:51):
Know, you're sharing information about your, you know, your stats and performance.
You know, you're getting people to be engaged in what you do. Right. So marketing
applies. So the index is a tool to get people really clear on,
you know, all the things that a manager needs to know. Sort of the best
practices and the principles are the same
in every sector. So that's what it is. And it just
(21:14):
came about from a lot of years in management consulting and planning. Like
I was saying, I was discovering a lot of people, even with MBAs,
didn't agree on what the basic terms were or how they related one to
another, or what the CFO does or the finance director.
And how can you work together if you're, if you're really not, not
(21:35):
understanding the basic terms? Right, right. For sure. I,
I really enjoy, because it
happens a lot in law enforcement.
You know, everybody works different shifts. Some works day shifts, some work afternoons, some work
overnights, some don't work weekends. And it
never fails. As a supervisor, they want to do a
(21:58):
supervisors meeting. When, you know, it's your
time, you're supposed to either be off or sleeping or.
So you've already got a group of, you know, 10, 15 different personalities. Then
some of them don't have any sleep. I really like. I want you
to talk about the 1/4 page meeting planner
because that is something that goes on far too
(22:20):
often in law enforcement is the meeting drags on forever because
there's no structure. Right. I really like this. Talk
about that for a little bit. Sure. Well, you know,
the quarter page meeting planner is literally, you know, it's a, it's a PDF you
can download again for free at the Toolkit on our website. And
you know, it just guides you through, you know, what is
(22:44):
the purpose of this meeting, who's going to participate, what are the
questions we're going to discuss? And posing the agenda as questions is really
powerful, you know, and believe me, law enforcement
is not unique in being sick to death of meetings that go too long.
That is a universal, universal disease. And
you know, if you can get a reputation for running a tight meeting in
(23:07):
short meetings, you know, you will be a hero forever. Right. So I'll
just throw that out. Yeah. And you don't have to be necessarily the leader of
the meeting. You can just sort of, well, take charge.
So, yeah, the quarter page meeting planner is really just prompts to basic best
practices of meeting management. And that is again, what, what
are we here to do? You know, there's a couple basic types of meetings and
(23:29):
this is all Spelled out there's a one page instruction sheet. Are we here to
share information? You know, we're here to make a decision. Right. Those are basically
the two kinds of meetings. Okay. And then, so
what exactly is it? And you know, there's a
place for a general catch up if know, okay, let's just go around the table.
Who's doing what, there's a place for that, but have a timer running,
(23:51):
you know, and cut people off. And
so it prompts you to say, be just really clear. And if in a short
amount of space, which makes you, really forces you to be clear, what are we
trying to do in this meeting? Right? And then what are, you know, what are
the main, what are the main issues? Who needs to
participate and what's the decision or what's the outcome
(24:14):
and how are we going to follow up to that? And
you know, I had a client who had an old fashioned
hourglass and he had a meeting and he had meetings.
It ran for 60 minutes and he just turned that thing upside down. Bam.
On the table when the meeting started. And when the last grain of sand
went through there, he got up and left.
(24:37):
That's it. And you know, I encourage everybody
to have that same role. No, I'm done. And you
know, and don't go over, just don't. And you know, after a couple
times, people just walking out when the official time is over,
then people get better at it. But those meetings are precious. It's
precious time. And you know, it's, it's the manager's
(25:00):
job to use that time. Well, it's a really valuable resource,
particularly you know, in shift work. I mean, you know, again, my wife and daughter
are nurses. You know, they have to deal with that too. They have to come
in at odd hours to be in the team meeting. So I, you know, I
know that one. And that's
even more precious time. That's family time, right? Yes.
(25:21):
So make, make them. You, you can actually have meetings that are
focused, informed, collaborative, creative and
decisive because it can happen. But you
have to, you know, you're just going to have to be tough and you know,
if you're not the leader of the meeting, well, you know, you know,
barge in a little bit. That's my advice. Yeah, I love
(25:42):
that. You know, and there's so many different, you know, as I explore the index,
there's so many different tools on here. There's some strategic planning
tools, there's risk assessments, there's audits,
budget based stuff, questions, project
planners. Guys, please check the index out because
the the nerdy side of me loves that. And
(26:07):
there's so many administrative level people can just use those. And
it's all free on this website, guys, so check it out. Please subscribe.
But Derek, I want to, I want to kind of touch on, as we start
to wrap up a little bit. How did you decide? I'm
going to write a book and tell me the process. You've wrote three books?
Yeah, well, my first book
(26:30):
was about architecture. My focus in that time of life was like
the facility planning work. And I'm just the kind of guy who sees sort
of complex systems that
aren't clear. And I just like to try to bring
some system and clarity to it. But the book about
management in the management role is called Atoms and Orchestras.
(26:53):
First of all, after writing two books, you know, you learn how to be a
little more efficient. You learn how to write for your audience. It's more of a
workbook than the other ones.
But, you know, what I realized is that
there's only a certain percentage of people who make good managers. I don't know if
that's 1 in 21 in 15. They have
(27:14):
to have that interpersonal drive to serve that you've talked
about. Good news is that when you're in the first responder world
again, you know, broaden that to health care. And
you know, in other words, you know, people are generally
there to serve and they are capable, if they're reminded of it, to
put other people first. But, you know, for people who are serious
(27:36):
students in management and they understand how much is at stake,
right? It's not just right. You're. The people who work for you
are, are, you know, they, they depend
on you as leader to make their lives, give their lives meaning. They'll make
them look forward to coming to work every day. That's incredibly important,
right? You're, you know, that is incredibly important. And I wanted to
(28:00):
write a book that not only would inspire people, you know, to, to
take up management as a calling or decide objectively that they don't
want to do it, that's good too, because nothing, you know, nothing's
worse than having someone be a manager who doesn't want to be a manager. That's
bad all the way around. And then I just wanted to just solve these really
basic problems and provide these standards, standard terminology,
(28:21):
which is the index standard of ethics, the pledge of angel
power. And then the third standard is sort of the standard of competence. What does
a manager need to know? We just call the Milwaukee model. You know, what do
I need to know about personal development, supervision, planning, you know, the
broader organizational things. And,
you know, it's a really interesting time to be thinking about this because of AI
(28:44):
and what does that mean for how we work and how we manage.
But, you know, as you're saying, you know, in the first responder world,
if there were lots more great managers and leaders, you
know, at every level, you know, from the unit to the agency,
there would be more people applying, you know, for those
roles, you know, because there'll be guys like you going out in the world
(29:07):
saying, I love my job. I love the people I work for. You know,
they're really great. You know, that would bring more people into
the system. That's true in every industry now. So
I really wanted to inspire that. And actually, I'm now just starting my fourth
book, which is really just sort of get at this very basic issue.
Why should someone be a manager? I mean, these questions that you're asking me and
(29:29):
in some of these podcasts made me realize, holy smokes, there's a need to make
the pitch, you know, to that person. You know, why you
should consider it as a career. Yeah, absolutely.
That's something we run into a lot with first
responders especially. And I love my dad to death, but
I'll give. I'll use him as an example. He was
(29:51):
a state trooper for 24 years, and
he never wanted to promote to a leadership position because
he never wanted to be around those people. It was looked
at as, you know, I don't want to say a sellout,
but he didn't want to go be around administration. And
looking back on it now, he's like, I wish I would have done that.
(30:14):
And, you know, we've got to figure out a way
to make people realize that sometimes it's
okay to come out of your comfort zone to be that leader or manager.
Well, first of all, please tell your Dad I appreciate 24 years of
service. That's amazing. And he inspired his son, obviously, so. Yep, that's a
really good thing. But, you know, not
(30:36):
everybody, you know, never. Not everybody wants to be a manager. You know, they don't
have the skill set. They have other skill sets that are really valuable,
so that's. That's fine. But some people become managers because they
do want to go in and, you know, maybe this would have been your dad
on another day. I want to go be. Get promoted, go into
administration because I want to go set things right.
(30:57):
And that's okay as long as, you know, you get the training to do that,
you know, and It's a classic mistake. Happens everywhere. Oh, you're really
good as a police officer, therefore
I want you to be a manager. It doesn't make any sense, right?
There are 1037 business schools in the world.
They exist for a reason. You know, so the training
(31:19):
is so important. But, you know, I've tried to lay out a path that, that
you can do that. But so one simple tip, you know, if
we're coming to the end here, I'd encourage everybody to do, if
you have any inkling at all about wanting to, you know, go into administration to
become, you know, either a squad leader or go to administration, or
you've maybe you've been asked to consider it. Just talk to
(31:41):
people, you know, it doesn't have to be in the first in your world
and ask them, tell me about your favorite boss. Of course, you know, that's my
work. So I've asked, had that conversation hundreds of times
and get people talking about their favorite boss and why they were
so great. You know, you start hearing some of the same things,
(32:01):
which is useful. They cared about me, they were
fair, they were tough, they let me fail, but they didn't
blame me. They taught me everything that I know.
You know, I, I make an analogy to, you know, school teacher.
Now, I had an English teacher in high school, Greg Baker,
(32:21):
and he was that kind of personality,
person who could put each student first. You really thought of them as
individuals. Now, when he passed away, 500
former students came from all over the country to go to his memorial
because he thought of them as individuals and helped them be
all that they could be. Not necessarily as writers and English majors, but
(32:45):
whatever field they went in. And a good boss can do that. You know, I,
I remember a conversation I had not long ago with a young woman. I asked
her this question. She goes on and on, you know, about her,
her favorite boss, another woman. And I asked her, well, where did that,
where, where is she now? Where is your boss now? Well, she's working for
Fortune 500 company overseeing, you know, the HR function and
(33:07):
management development function. So she's helping literally thousands
of people, you know, indirectly. But she's helping them all,
you know, come to work, feel safe, appreciated,
proud. I mean, that's a, that's a great thing to do.
And so, you know, maybe if people could bring that first responder
mindset of service, I'm just going to throw myself into helping
(33:29):
these, this person in front of me even. It may not be the victim, but
it may be the frontline person.
You know, they're going to find that, that instead of all that tension they feel
is being stuck in the middle of some hierarchy, they're going to say, oh, no,
I'm connected to purpose. I'm making a difference in this person's life.
That's huge. But yeah, just ask people, tell me about your favorite
(33:50):
boss, and then, you know, give yourself a half an hour for the answer because
people will go on about it and maybe that'll inspire people to,
you know, think about it. And I hope that I, that my book and the
tools, you know, will be guidance to make people say,
yeah, it doesn't have to be chaotic. It can be positive, constructive, and we can
have great meetings that end on time. Yeah, absolutely. And I
(34:12):
love that. I mean, you hit the nail on the head is that's a great
starting point of, you know, find your, your boss that you
knew who your favorite one. And that's a good starting point for
pretty much anybody in any field. So I love that.
So, guys, the index.net you can contact Derek
on there. There's tons of free tools that can help in your management
(34:36):
leadership journey. Derek, where can they get your book at? Your
books? Well, the links are on, you know, on the website
under Book, I think, and. Okay. Or Derek Van
Mel at Amazon, and it'll take you there. And, you know, if any
of your, any of your listeners, you know, want to just chat with me and
talk a little bit, learn a little bit more or learn how to apply it
(34:56):
or talk through a situation, you know, I'm happy to do that. You know,
I'm at this stage in my career where I'm, I'm just here to help people.
It's, you know, I don't, I don't get paid for every time I take a
breath. So, yeah, they should feel free to contact me.
And how can they contact you all? That's on the website,
theindex.net awesome. Yeah. Guys, Derek,
(35:17):
thank you for joining me tonight. You've been awesome. And everybody
stay safe out there. All right, Brent, thank you.
Guys, welcome to the new episode of the First Responder Playbook. It's my
pleasure to have Derek Van Mel on with me today. Derek is the founder and
principal of the center for Management Terms and Practices, the standards
body for general management. His personal mission is to build a
world community of caring leaders who live by the highest standards of ethics and
competence. Everyone deserves a boss that makes them feel safe,
(00:23):
appreciated and proud. Derek, thank you for joining me
tonight. Well, thanks, Brent. Glad to be with you. Yeah, I'm excited
to have you here. You know, kind of like we were talking about off air
a little bit is in law enforcement, you know, that I can speak
to directly. But first responders in general, there's need
for more standardized set of leaders,
(00:45):
leadership training, but just leaders in general that care
and, you know, can show some empathy to their people. They're leading.
And so I'm excited to have you tonight. Well, I hope I can help.
So let me ask you to start off,
how did you go down the leadership journey? Well, you know,
(01:06):
I started really as a generalist management consultant and
I had worked on big facility projects and they're planning.
So if you've been through it, even in, you know, law enforcement, you still
have decisions about, you know, where should our facilities be, where should the district
offices be. Right. You know, think through the
locations and then the design and layout. And then, you know, of
(01:28):
course, you know, how do you justify financially? And so I started that and
then I realized there was a lot of my clients who are in all
sectors, you know, really didn't have a long range plan. You know,
in the management world, we talk a lot about, you know, strategic planning and it's
all the press about strategy. But it's only like
we did a national study once. Less than 9% of organizations have a
(01:51):
plan they follow, which is kind of crazy. And then out
of that grew sort of an understanding that in the field
of management itself, you know, how you help people work together and how you lead
them, there was no set of standards, as you were saying, no
standards of competence, no standards of ethics. But
everybody remembers their best boss. Everybody remembers their worst boss, too.
(02:13):
And we know how important that is, not just for ourselves personally and how we
feel, but for performance, how we perform and our
team performs. And as first responders, well, that
really matters, right? That's. I don't have any first
responder experience, but I have a wife and daughter who are
nurses. So they're first responders in a way, right? Yeah, absolutely.
(02:37):
My wife was a respiratory nurse, so a Covid nurse
and. Well, she saw some things, right? Yep. And. And management,
you know, really matters how you, you know, how you deliver things on scene,
right? Yeah, absolutely.
I really want to talk about the difference
between, like, managers and leaders and your take, your take on that,
(03:00):
because in my opinion, there's a big difference there. And we have
that problem, especially in the first responder world. And people will
be given a title and they expect to be a leader from that
point forward, and you kind of have to earn that leadership title.
Well, you do. And, you know, as I was, as I was getting
prepared for our conversation, you know, and doing some research
(03:23):
about, you know, the roles of management in the first responder world
and the titles and, you know, the confusion between manager and
leader is really common. But I thought, I don't know if this will be helpful,
but I thought it might be helpful to think about management and leadership and those
questions and make a distinction between, you know, management and
leadership. When you're on scene, you know, when, when this stuff is
(03:45):
happening, and then management and leadership, you know,
at the unit or squad level or department level or
agency level, you lose. The principles are the same, but of course
the pace and style are different. So it might be helpful as
we go forward just to think about, you know, on scene versus behind the scenes,
if you will. So if that's useful. But your
(04:07):
question about the difference between manager and leader is they're not different people.
So a manager is someone who helps people work together. Again, you can picture
that when you're on scene, stuff's happening, right? And you're going by
instinct and training and you're helping people
work together. You're coordinating, like in the moment.
(04:27):
And that's also true, though, you know, when you're behind the scenes,
when time is not critical, you're still helping people work
together, different kinds of people. Now, a lead. So a manager is someone who helps
people work together, right? You can picture that. All first responders can picture
that on scene, certainly. And then a leader is someone who inspires people
to take a risk. And here's the thing, they are not different people.
(04:50):
Now you can say a manager is someone who also has, among other
skills and knowledge, leadership ability, right? They can set
a challenge, they can inspire people. You know, they can make success
possible, but they're not different people. And
there's so much confusion. We kind of. It's just sort of an ego thing to
say, you're a man, you're a leader instead of a manager. Somehow that's more important.
(05:12):
But it really doesn't make any sense. You just may be a manager without
strong leadership ability. I mean, you could also say you're a leader without
strong management ability. But there was a
Secretary of State James Baker years ago said, you know, a leader is
someone who, who knows what to do and then does. It sort of captures that
two sides of the same person. So that's, it's really
(05:35):
important, I think, not to, to break through that confusion. And then
as I was researching, you know, the first responder world and
titles, I was not surprised because I see this everywhere. You know, there's what
I call title soup. I sort of printed out some, made some notes,
right? Everything. You know, you have coordinators, you have officers, you got
planning managers, of course, you got the battalion leaders, you
(05:57):
know, on and on. So you got the titles of leader, director,
coordinator, planner. Well, they're all managers with
leadership, leadership responsibilities too. So
the titles can be really confusing. And that's
bad because, man, you really need to be clear of
what it means to be a manager when you accept that job.
(06:20):
And you really need to be clear about what your manage, what your leadership
responsibilities are. Again, in these two very different modes
that there are lots of people I'm certain in the first
responder world that are both on scene and have those
responsibilities. They're the unit leader, but they also have
maybe leadership responsibilities, management responsibilities
(06:41):
between incidents, and then they're sort of taking the longer view and broader
view. So, you know, you have to really be clear what those roles are.
So I don't know if that's clarifying. Maybe it's disappointing some people think
of themselves as a manager or leader, but you got to
be able to make stuff happen, you know, and wear the manager hat too.
No, I actually really enjoyed that distinction because that really
(07:04):
helped clear some things up and maybe some misconceptions even I had.
So I always tell people that this is not a
podcast of me knowing everything. I'm learning just as much as everybody
else listening. And so I really enjoyed that distinction there.
Good. You know what, what are
some things? Because we come from a very
(07:27):
paramilitaristic mindset for the
most time. What are some ways that we can work on,
you know, leadership to like improve that, like
middle management level of life? Because the problem we run into a
lot is you'll have your administration that's,
you know, a lot of times in a separate building or there at separate times
(07:50):
from you, and then you have your middle management that's there usually
the same time you are and stuff gets lost. In translation,
be it because of times or you know, just being in different
buildings, what are some ways that you can work on improving that
communication and trust? Well, you know,
the only way to motivate people is to give them meaningful work. And when you're
(08:14):
on the front lines, right, pretty clear that your work is
meaningful. You know, you're saving lives, protecting property, whether you're, you know,
whether you're a police officer, you know, firefighter,
you know, er, nurse, right. Fema. FEMA
coordinator. So the best way to
get through that, make that clear, is right to see how everybody connects to
(08:37):
the good that you do in the world. And when you're in a management role
and you're some, you know, a good manager, sometimes sort of stays in the background,
they're letting people in the front sort of get the credit, take it, be
accountable and get, get recognition so you can,
you start to get disconnected. And like you say, they're often in different buildings, and
that's a problem. So an analogy, maybe your listeners would find
(08:59):
this useful is because I've done a lot of work in healthcare. So let's, let's
just say picture you're in the operating room
and you're the surgeon. Just picture that for a moment. We've all seen it.
Either first responders have seen that in real life, or if not, you've seen
in the movies. And the surgeon looks real simple. Surgeon puts his or her hand
out and says, scalpel, right? And the operating nurse
(09:22):
slaps scalpel in the surgeon's hand.
And it's the right scalpel in their hand, handing it to them in the right
way. And it's always there just when you need it. And then that
happens hundreds of times in an operation.
Well, let's just think for a minute. What does it take to make that
simple transaction work? Scalpel.
(09:44):
There it is, right there. Well, you've got to hire the right nurses.
That's an administrator. You got to train them. You have to have enough
of them so you can cover odd shifts, right? You need the
logistics people who are ordering the scalpels and, and
literally thousands of other things and that's stockpiled.
Generally it's affordable and it's positioned
(10:05):
exactly right in the or. Of course, then you have the people
who are cleaning up central sterile linen,
bandages, supplies. Of course, if
you're in the bus on the way
to a car accident, you're thinking about you're taking your
emergency room with you, right? Same kind of thing. And,
(10:28):
and then to make all that happen, the hiring, the equipment, Information
systems. You have the facilities, people, you've got all these
hundreds and hundreds of people just to make that one transaction happen
right when it's supposed to happen. And so one thing I suggest
to people, when you feel like you're disconnected is
because when, as soon as you get disconnected, then you get us versus them, you
(10:51):
get tension and conflict and you lose sight of, you know, we're all in it
to save the patient, right. Or to, you know, help help the victim.
So map that out. Literally, I would just draw that on, draw it on a
big piece of paper. Here's how. All this stuff that people on
scene do to make sure that, you know,
when they reach for the gauze, they reach for the scissors, you know,
(11:13):
they need the gas. It's all right there. You have to take
a minute and appreciate what it took to, you know, to make that happen, both
in terms of supplies and personnel. So that,
that sometimes helps people if you, once they're connected
and they're connected to purpose, right. Helping the
victims, now you're on the same team
(11:35):
again. And that, that'll help people,
you know, communicate and appreciate their, the roles
of so called support. But, you know, it happens in
hospitals. You know, a lot of surgeons are accused of being sort of prima
donnas because they're the ones, you know, everybody can see they're making stuff happen.
And you need, you know, that role needs a certain attitude. Yeah, I get,
(11:59):
I get that. But need to remember that,
that that role does not function at all,
or certainly doesn't function well without, you know, a thousand other people,
you know, making that happen. So, I mean, I think you make a key point
there, and it's really something that ties in well with first responders is that
(12:20):
your title doesn't necessarily dictate how
you treat people. And you know, a
lot of times you'll see in the first responder world,
supervisors that kind of forget where they come
from as, as we all say on the
lower rungs, because they'll get into a supervisor's position
(12:42):
and they'll be like, well, I'm a corporal or I'm a sergeant now.
You know, I don't got to take calls or I don't have to, you know,
be out in the field as much. And it really
rubs a lot of the rank and file people the wrong way because,
well, when you were a patrolman, you wanted your supervisor to show up and
(13:02):
say, hey, is everything okay? Or hey, do you need anything?
And kind of like you said, like, you want to always be able to depend
on, you know, the right hand knowing what the left hand's doing. And
a lot of times, especially in the first responder world, we need
to really work on that communication and not
forgetting. Like, hey, you know, when you were in that position
(13:24):
as the patrolman, like, how did you want your
supervisor to treat you? And I think that's where we have a
lot of disconnect right now. Yeah, well, you know, you've
touched on maybe I think, the most important point, and that is, you
know, the drug of power, right? And we
all like to think that we're immune from that, right? Just like any
(13:46):
addict, but it's a drug
and it's addicting. And even, you know, the folks who had been on the front
lines, right, who said, you know,
they were never going to be that person, you know, who pushed
people around, you know, condescended, you know, didn't
use their power correctly. You know, we see that, we see
(14:09):
them transforming and, you know,
you can fault them, but you also have to realize, you know, just how
addictive that power is. And when you add power with
pressure, you know, and particularly in the
first responder environment, when, you know,
the, the person in the, in the, you know, in the emergency center,
(14:30):
right, in the war room or the battalion center is having
to call some difficult shots remotely. Because that happens, right?
Particularly in a really bad, you know, bad incident where you have multiple
units on call, you know, they're on the
spot and that, you know, so,
you know, you, you use that power, you have to use it, and then you
(14:53):
get addicted to it. So. But the way to deal with that is to talk
about it. And that's why one of the three of the
standards of management that comes first on our
list is what we call the pledge of managerial power. And it just
recognizes how much power even
someone who's managing just a couple people has over
(15:16):
their staff. The story I often tell, you know, I started off, I
was, you know, I had a degree in economics, which was, well, pretty much useless.
So my first job was I was basically a file clerk in a large real
estate project, folding drawings, right? A
little different than what I had planned for my life. But anyway, so one day
after like a year, I'm in the. I'm in the file room, I'm folding drawings.
(15:38):
HR director shows up in the doorway and says,
hey, Derek, here's your new assistant. And I, there's some tall, skinny kid next to
her. I'm sure you guys will get along. See ya. You know,
that was all the warning and training I got to be a manager, and that
was a long time ago, but I reflect. Like, did I make that kid's life
a living hell? I mean, I think I'm a nice guy. I don't think I
(16:00):
would use my power badly. But did I, you know. Right. Yeah, I
don't know. So when people use power, there's a couple things
to think about. Right. One is, you know, just be aware of it. And most
people aren't. You need to talk about it. And the pledge, which is all, by
the way, you know, it's free. We're the standards body, so all this is free
at our website, the index.net and it's
(16:21):
just one page and you know, it. The pledge itself
is a single page. It says, you know, you need to be aware of it,
you need to introspect and think about it. You need to deal with
people appropriately as individuals. And you need to set an intention,
you know, every day, how am I going to use my power, you know, to
be helpful? You know, there's a category of people who get addicted to power
(16:43):
and they become, you know, genuinely abusive. And
that's, that's a, you know, those are people who just need to go.
But, but there's still a distinction between people who, they
misuse their power sometimes they, you know, overstep, they
condescend, they micromanage, second guess,
and they have the authority to do that, which is annoying at least. Right.
(17:05):
But there's also, maybe you've seen this too. Even in law enforcement,
you got some bosses who don't use their power enough,
they don't decide enough, they don't get rid of the bad apples,
they don't fight for the resources that you really do need.
So how you use your power, it has to be a conversation.
(17:27):
And I found that most ethical
shortcomings or shortfalls don't happen because someone's bad.
I mean, I have seen that like, well, you're in law enforcement, I need to
tell you. Yeah, but often people make ethical mistakes
just simply because they're not aware of the situation that they're in and their influence
there. So one way
(17:50):
to deal with that is if you can get certainly someone with
a lot of authority, broader authority, to recognize, yeah, this is an issue
we don't want to have happen. What you're describing as someone comes up
from the front lines, promises are never going to be that guy. They
get promoted, then they do become that guy, and then people
get upset, they underperform, they quit.
(18:13):
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, especially because
once you kind of lose faith in that leadership, it's hard to
get back. Yeah. And you know, that's a
problem we're running into everywhere across America right now with
first responders is they're losing people left and right.
Yeah. If we can do a little bit better to at least make the
(18:35):
leadership better on top of it and the management that can at
least save one or two officers or firefighters or
paramedics, whatever it may be, then
let's do it. Because we can't, we can't afford to
lose any more people. I think every agency I know is, you know,
shorthanded and running from call to call. And so
(18:57):
I'm with you. I love that. But you mentioned it and
I want to talk about it because I've been checking it out and I really
enjoy it. Let's talk about the Index. Okay.
How did it come into about and kind of tell my
listeners what it is. Okay, so the, the
index is a sort of all purpose management utility.
(19:20):
Again, it's, you can get it for free from the index.net
you know, you subscribe, but there's no cost. And it
puts on one screen. Basically, you know, all of the
management disciplines, you know, it's sort of a four level tree
diagram, all fits on a screen. Work on a smartphone too.
You know, in the top level are things that, you know, in the first
(19:43):
responder world, you'd call it the administrative things. Right.
Outreach, hiring or hr, information
systems, finance, you know, and operations.
And then you click on one of those terms and then it leads you to,
it breaks that down to six more and then six more for each of those
terms. There's a clear definition, you know, and then
(20:06):
some discussion questions and also some, you know, best practice
resources. So one of the tricks in management
is that it's, you know, it's always uncertain, you know, you never
100% done. So the index is a tool to bring all that into focus and
to create a, you know, global standard. What do the basic terms of management mean?
And I, you know, I've worked with people, you know, in,
(20:29):
you know, most parts of the world and try to get six people to agree
what is marketing? You know, and then you
also get to people in certain sectors. It's true in healthcare and maybe in your
world. Oh, you don't say, oh, we don't do marketing. Well, yeah, you do. You
know, you're, you're doing, you know, you're telling the community about your
programs. Right. You know, you're getting people to come to events, you
(20:51):
Know, you're sharing information about your, you know, your stats and performance.
You know, you're getting people to be engaged in what you do. Right. So marketing
applies. So the index is a tool to get people really clear on,
you know, all the things that a manager needs to know. Sort of the best
practices and the principles are the same
in every sector. So that's what it is. And it just
(21:14):
came about from a lot of years in management consulting and planning. Like
I was saying, I was discovering a lot of people, even with MBAs,
didn't agree on what the basic terms were or how they related one to
another, or what the CFO does or the finance director.
And how can you work together if you're, if you're really not, not
(21:35):
understanding the basic terms? Right, right. For sure. I,
I really enjoy, because it
happens a lot in law enforcement.
You know, everybody works different shifts. Some works day shifts, some work afternoons, some work
overnights, some don't work weekends. And it
never fails. As a supervisor, they want to do a
(21:58):
supervisors meeting. When, you know, it's your
time, you're supposed to either be off or sleeping or.
So you've already got a group of, you know, 10, 15 different personalities. Then
some of them don't have any sleep. I really like. I want you
to talk about the 1/4 page meeting planner
because that is something that goes on far too
(22:20):
often in law enforcement is the meeting drags on forever because
there's no structure. Right. I really like this. Talk
about that for a little bit. Sure. Well, you know,
the quarter page meeting planner is literally, you know, it's a, it's a PDF you
can download again for free at the Toolkit on our website. And
you know, it just guides you through, you know, what is
(22:44):
the purpose of this meeting, who's going to participate, what are the
questions we're going to discuss? And posing the agenda as questions is really
powerful, you know, and believe me, law enforcement
is not unique in being sick to death of meetings that go too long.
That is a universal, universal disease. And
you know, if you can get a reputation for running a tight meeting in
(23:07):
short meetings, you know, you will be a hero forever. Right. So I'll
just throw that out. Yeah. And you don't have to be necessarily the leader of
the meeting. You can just sort of, well, take charge.
So, yeah, the quarter page meeting planner is really just prompts to basic best
practices of meeting management. And that is again, what, what
are we here to do? You know, there's a couple basic types of meetings and
(23:29):
this is all Spelled out there's a one page instruction sheet. Are we here to
share information? You know, we're here to make a decision. Right. Those are basically
the two kinds of meetings. Okay. And then, so
what exactly is it? And you know, there's a
place for a general catch up if know, okay, let's just go around the table.
Who's doing what, there's a place for that, but have a timer running,
(23:51):
you know, and cut people off. And
so it prompts you to say, be just really clear. And if in a short
amount of space, which makes you, really forces you to be clear, what are we
trying to do in this meeting? Right? And then what are, you know, what are
the main, what are the main issues? Who needs to
participate and what's the decision or what's the outcome
(24:14):
and how are we going to follow up to that? And
you know, I had a client who had an old fashioned
hourglass and he had a meeting and he had meetings.
It ran for 60 minutes and he just turned that thing upside down. Bam.
On the table when the meeting started. And when the last grain of sand
went through there, he got up and left.
(24:37):
That's it. And you know, I encourage everybody
to have that same role. No, I'm done. And you
know, and don't go over, just don't. And you know, after a couple
times, people just walking out when the official time is over,
then people get better at it. But those meetings are precious. It's
precious time. And you know, it's, it's the manager's
(25:00):
job to use that time. Well, it's a really valuable resource,
particularly you know, in shift work. I mean, you know, again, my wife and daughter
are nurses. You know, they have to deal with that too. They have to come
in at odd hours to be in the team meeting. So I, you know, I
know that one. And that's
even more precious time. That's family time, right? Yes.
(25:21):
So make, make them. You, you can actually have meetings that are
focused, informed, collaborative, creative and
decisive because it can happen. But you
have to, you know, you're just going to have to be tough and you know,
if you're not the leader of the meeting, well, you know, you know,
barge in a little bit. That's my advice. Yeah, I love
(25:42):
that. You know, and there's so many different, you know, as I explore the index,
there's so many different tools on here. There's some strategic planning
tools, there's risk assessments, there's audits,
budget based stuff, questions, project
planners. Guys, please check the index out because
the the nerdy side of me loves that. And
(26:07):
there's so many administrative level people can just use those. And
it's all free on this website, guys, so check it out. Please subscribe.
But Derek, I want to, I want to kind of touch on, as we start
to wrap up a little bit. How did you decide? I'm
going to write a book and tell me the process. You've wrote three books?
Yeah, well, my first book
(26:30):
was about architecture. My focus in that time of life was like
the facility planning work. And I'm just the kind of guy who sees sort
of complex systems that
aren't clear. And I just like to try to bring
some system and clarity to it. But the book about
management in the management role is called Atoms and Orchestras.
(26:53):
First of all, after writing two books, you know, you learn how to be a
little more efficient. You learn how to write for your audience. It's more of a
workbook than the other ones.
But, you know, what I realized is that
there's only a certain percentage of people who make good managers. I don't know if
that's 1 in 21 in 15. They have
(27:14):
to have that interpersonal drive to serve that you've talked
about. Good news is that when you're in the first responder world
again, you know, broaden that to health care. And
you know, in other words, you know, people are generally
there to serve and they are capable, if they're reminded of it, to
put other people first. But, you know, for people who are serious
(27:36):
students in management and they understand how much is at stake,
right? It's not just right. You're. The people who work for you
are, are, you know, they, they depend
on you as leader to make their lives, give their lives meaning. They'll make
them look forward to coming to work every day. That's incredibly important,
right? You're, you know, that is incredibly important. And I wanted to
(28:00):
write a book that not only would inspire people, you know, to, to
take up management as a calling or decide objectively that they don't
want to do it, that's good too, because nothing, you know, nothing's
worse than having someone be a manager who doesn't want to be a manager. That's
bad all the way around. And then I just wanted to just solve these really
basic problems and provide these standards, standard terminology,
(28:21):
which is the index standard of ethics, the pledge of angel
power. And then the third standard is sort of the standard of competence. What does
a manager need to know? We just call the Milwaukee model. You know, what do
I need to know about personal development, supervision, planning, you know, the
broader organizational things. And,
you know, it's a really interesting time to be thinking about this because of AI
(28:44):
and what does that mean for how we work and how we manage.
But, you know, as you're saying, you know, in the first responder world,
if there were lots more great managers and leaders, you
know, at every level, you know, from the unit to the agency,
there would be more people applying, you know, for those
roles, you know, because there'll be guys like you going out in the world
(29:07):
saying, I love my job. I love the people I work for. You know,
they're really great. You know, that would bring more people into
the system. That's true in every industry now. So
I really wanted to inspire that. And actually, I'm now just starting my fourth
book, which is really just sort of get at this very basic issue.
Why should someone be a manager? I mean, these questions that you're asking me and
(29:29):
in some of these podcasts made me realize, holy smokes, there's a need to make
the pitch, you know, to that person. You know, why you
should consider it as a career. Yeah, absolutely.
That's something we run into a lot with first
responders especially. And I love my dad to death, but
I'll give. I'll use him as an example. He was
(29:51):
a state trooper for 24 years, and
he never wanted to promote to a leadership position because
he never wanted to be around those people. It was looked
at as, you know, I don't want to say a sellout,
but he didn't want to go be around administration. And
looking back on it now, he's like, I wish I would have done that.
(30:14):
And, you know, we've got to figure out a way
to make people realize that sometimes it's
okay to come out of your comfort zone to be that leader or manager.
Well, first of all, please tell your Dad I appreciate 24 years of
service. That's amazing. And he inspired his son, obviously, so. Yep, that's a
really good thing. But, you know, not
(30:36):
everybody, you know, never. Not everybody wants to be a manager. You know, they don't
have the skill set. They have other skill sets that are really valuable,
so that's. That's fine. But some people become managers because they
do want to go in and, you know, maybe this would have been your dad
on another day. I want to go be. Get promoted, go into
administration because I want to go set things right.
(30:57):
And that's okay as long as, you know, you get the training to do that,
you know, and It's a classic mistake. Happens everywhere. Oh, you're really
good as a police officer, therefore
I want you to be a manager. It doesn't make any sense, right?
There are 1037 business schools in the world.
They exist for a reason. You know, so the training
(31:19):
is so important. But, you know, I've tried to lay out a path that, that
you can do that. But so one simple tip, you know, if
we're coming to the end here, I'd encourage everybody to do, if
you have any inkling at all about wanting to, you know, go into administration to
become, you know, either a squad leader or go to administration, or
you've maybe you've been asked to consider it. Just talk to
(31:41):
people, you know, it doesn't have to be in the first in your world
and ask them, tell me about your favorite boss. Of course, you know, that's my
work. So I've asked, had that conversation hundreds of times
and get people talking about their favorite boss and why they were
so great. You know, you start hearing some of the same things,
(32:01):
which is useful. They cared about me, they were
fair, they were tough, they let me fail, but they didn't
blame me. They taught me everything that I know.
You know, I, I make an analogy to, you know, school teacher.
Now, I had an English teacher in high school, Greg Baker,
(32:21):
and he was that kind of personality,
person who could put each student first. You really thought of them as
individuals. Now, when he passed away, 500
former students came from all over the country to go to his memorial
because he thought of them as individuals and helped them be
all that they could be. Not necessarily as writers and English majors, but
(32:45):
whatever field they went in. And a good boss can do that. You know, I,
I remember a conversation I had not long ago with a young woman. I asked
her this question. She goes on and on, you know, about her,
her favorite boss, another woman. And I asked her, well, where did that,
where, where is she now? Where is your boss now? Well, she's working for
Fortune 500 company overseeing, you know, the HR function and
(33:07):
management development function. So she's helping literally thousands
of people, you know, indirectly. But she's helping them all,
you know, come to work, feel safe, appreciated,
proud. I mean, that's a, that's a great thing to do.
And so, you know, maybe if people could bring that first responder
mindset of service, I'm just going to throw myself into helping
(33:29):
these, this person in front of me even. It may not be the victim, but
it may be the frontline person.
You know, they're going to find that, that instead of all that tension they feel
is being stuck in the middle of some hierarchy, they're going to say, oh, no,
I'm connected to purpose. I'm making a difference in this person's life.
That's huge. But yeah, just ask people, tell me about your favorite
(33:50):
boss, and then, you know, give yourself a half an hour for the answer because
people will go on about it and maybe that'll inspire people to,
you know, think about it. And I hope that I, that my book and the
tools, you know, will be guidance to make people say,
yeah, it doesn't have to be chaotic. It can be positive, constructive, and we can
have great meetings that end on time. Yeah, absolutely. And I
(34:12):
love that. I mean, you hit the nail on the head is that's a great
starting point of, you know, find your, your boss that you
knew who your favorite one. And that's a good starting point for
pretty much anybody in any field. So I love that.
So, guys, the index.net you can contact Derek
on there. There's tons of free tools that can help in your management
(34:36):
leadership journey. Derek, where can they get your book at? Your
books? Well, the links are on, you know, on the website
under Book, I think, and. Okay. Or Derek Van
Mel at Amazon, and it'll take you there. And, you know, if any
of your, any of your listeners, you know, want to just chat with me and
talk a little bit, learn a little bit more or learn how to apply it
(34:56):
or talk through a situation, you know, I'm happy to do that. You know,
I'm at this stage in my career where I'm, I'm just here to help people.
It's, you know, I don't, I don't get paid for every time I take a
breath. So, yeah, they should feel free to contact me.
And how can they contact you all? That's on the website,
theindex.net awesome. Yeah. Guys, Derek,
(35:17):
thank you for joining me tonight. You've been awesome. And everybody
stay safe out there. All right, Brent, thank you.
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