September 12, 2025 • 34 mins
Rachael Geiser and her involvement in the momentous release of the West Memphis Three after 18 years of wrongful imprisonment.
- Tony briefly worked as a private investigator alongside Rachael, though he struggled with people avoiding him in the field
- The West Memphis Three case reached a turning point when an evidentiary hearing was granted based on new DNA evidence
- An Alford plea allowed the defendants to maintain their innocence while being released from prison after 18 years
- Rachel witnessed Damien Echols' freedom firsthand at the courthouse on August 19, 2011
- Eddie Vedder and Natalie Maines celebrated with the defense team at the Madison Hotel rooftop
- Rachael participated in filming the documentary "West of Memphis" the day after their release
- The investigative work continued even after their release, following up on tips that came through the defense hotline
- Rachael hopes for a similar outcome for another death row client, Jesse Dotson
👉 Join the conversation: Subscribe free at thegeiserfiles.substack.com
for bonus content, behind-the-scenes notes, and a place to share your thoughts and theories.
⭐ Support the show: Leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen—it helps more people discover The Geiser Files.
🎵Intro music: Light Years, by Georgi Krastev - license no: 6697632440 from Audiio.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
For 26 years, Rachel Geiser has worked behind the
scenes of America's toughesttrials.
As a criminal defenseinvestigator, she stood with
defense teams in cases that madeheadlines, and many that never
did, but changed lives forever.
This is the Geiser Files.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Trump has held this night on the stereo.
Place your hands in mine, sovery low.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Okay, we're doing it.
Hello and welcome to GeyserFiles episode four.
Cuatro, as the Spanish friendsin the audience would say.
Bienvenido a episod cuatro.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
Hello, Tony.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Hi, Rachel.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Hola.
I know very little Spanish,believe it or not.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Pequeño.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
I don't have a whole lot of Hispanic clients, believe
it or not, in Memphis.
That doesn't come up for me veryoften.
I haven't needed the expertiseof a translator in a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
When I worked with you, I had a couple of Spanish
cases, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
Spanish speaking?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Yes.
Yes.
But they were all witnesses andvictims.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Yes.
So what would you do when youwere in the field and had to...
Well, we should stop for asecond.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Because I don't think our audience knows.
What?
You worked as a privateinvestigator for a minute,
didn't you?
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
I did.
I thought we did talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
I don't think we have.
Maybe
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
we have.
Well, briefly, we discussed howbad I was at it because I would
get out of the car car at anapartment complex.
You could hear all the doorsslamming shut and locking.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
I don't think we've talked about this, though.
Maybe that was mentioned in aprevious episode, but yes.
So, Tony, we worked together asprivate investigators for a
period of time, did we not?
And when was this?
Do you recall?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
I do not recall any dates whatsoever.
I'm horrible at dates, but I doknow that I worked for you,
let's be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
No, we were a partnership, Tony, like we are
now and have been for the over20 years no you I believe you
worked with me it was after yougot your degree before you went
back to school so it was 20102011 I think something like that
(02:16):
sure I think
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
so I'm horrible at those kinds of
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
chronologies
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
you are a very very smart brilliant man
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
wow yes thank you
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
but you did have some difficulty sometimes with
getting people to talk to you oranswer the door, really.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah.
So a big part of the job isgetting out there and beating
the bushes, so to speak.
Right.
When I would show up at thekinds of places where you have
to do this work.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Which are people's homes in Memphis.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
They see me coming and onepresumes that they think I am a
cop.
So they all just go back intotheir homes and lock their doors
and do not answer when I knockon it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Right.
Yes.
So we were going into the innercity neighborhoods of Memphis.
Quite a bit.
Obviously, that's where ourwitnesses live.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
I still do on
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
occasion.
When you would show up, peoplewould not come to the door and
answer the door, right?
And what did I suggest to you?
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Tell me to put on a baseball cap.
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
Right.
And then what happened?
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Because we all know that cops do not wear baseball
caps.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
You just look less formal.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
It's a fine line you got to walk, right?
If you're going to get people totalk to you, you don't want to.
So I wouldn't wear like suitsand ties out into the field
because that screams cop.
But you got to looksemi-official, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Yeah, you have to look.
Yeah, you have to look likeyou're there for a purpose, but
that not there to arrestsomeone.
I think sometimes just putting ahat on, a baseball hat in
particular for men, just kind ofputs people a little bit more at
ease.
So, did you get people to answerthe door after you put the hat
on?
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
On occasion, what would normally happen was they'd
see me coming, they wouldn'tanswer the door.
I'd leave a card on the doorthat says, Anthony Geiser,
private investigator, GeiserInvestigative Services, which
gets a big response, right?
People get a privateinvestigator's card on their
door and they're like, what theheck is this all about?
So I got a lot of callbacks.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
You did?
And would they agree to talk toyou when they called you back?
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Generally speaking, if I could talk to somebody, I
could get them to talk to me.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Okay.
That's good.
Because a lot of times when you,we have to leave guards
sometimes.
You can only go to someone'shouse so many times.
And a lot of times though, whenthey do call you, when people
call you, they don't agree to aninterview.
It's easier for them to tell youno on a telephone as opposed to
in your face when you'restanding, you know, at their
front door.
Or
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
they don't show up where they say they're going to.
Or they schedule a time for youto come back, and then they're
still not there and they don'tanswer.
They
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
don't come, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah, which is odd to me.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
so it's always best to do the interview, show up
unannounced, and have peopletalk to you then.
They're less prepared, and theyhave less time to flee.
I mean, we're not trying to keeppeople captive in doing
interviews.
obviously but we do want theopportunity to have people speak
(05:03):
with us about the case if theywill and it's easier to hang up
on you if you call them
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
yep and I had a little script I would say that
I'm pretty sure I got from youwhen you start let them know I'm
a private investigator I workfor so-and-so who is a defendant
on this case I'm not a cop I'mnot a lawyer you don't have to
talk to me and then go into yourquestions right don't just start
asking questions
SPEAKER_02 (05:26):
yeah I know honestly I feel like Yeah, I think that
the biggest thing is tellingpeople repeatedly.
I tell people, you don't have totalk to me.
You're doing me a favor bytalking to me.
You're doing my client a favorby talking to me, good or bad,
whatever it is you have to say.
I just want to know what it isyou saw or heard, what you know
about this case.
And that almost always, peoplelike to talk.
(05:48):
People want to tell you theirstories.
Look at the billions of podcastsout there.
People want to talk about theirlife and their experiences.
With very little exception, Ihave been very, very successful
in having people tell me whatthey witnessed on cases.
And I do know, though, that youhad a difficult time.
(06:10):
I look less like a cop than youdo.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
That's another thing.
I do have a cop look.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
You do.
You're very handsome and, youknow, six foot over.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
Six foot two.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
Six foot two, yes.
And, yeah, you did give off thatvibe.
I give off, I think, a socialworker vibe what do you think
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
yeah
SPEAKER_02 (06:31):
right um that is to my advantage i think way off
topic but i just wanted theaudience to know it
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
was exactly the topic because you brought it up
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
yeah that you you have worked with me during a
period of time even on the westmemphis three and the jesse
dotson case you know that we'regoing to talk about later to
some extent um you worked withme during that time period
actually
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
i did
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
yeah so where did we leave off last time on damian
eccles case I
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
have no idea.
I think
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
we left off with after the DNA testing was done
and there had been some reportsthat come back.
We continued.
We were continuing ourinvestigation.
Dennis had argued before theArkansas Supreme Court and the
defendants have been granted anevidentiary hearing.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
That's where we left off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
That's where we left off.
So that would have been.
What
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
is an evidentiary hearing?
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
Well, what the Arkansas Supreme Court said and
what what we asked for was thatall of the new information
specifically from the DNAreports and should be
considered.
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
Considered for what?
New
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
trial?
For a new trial, right?
So is it enough?
Is there enough new informationfor a court to consider whether
or not the defendant shouldreceive a new trial, basically?
Okay.
So you're going to have thishearing first.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
It's a trial to see if we're going to get a new
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
trial.
It's like a mini trial to see ifyou're going to get an actual
trial.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Very interesting.
What are the rules then?
There's no jury.
It's just the opposing counseland a judge?
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah, there's no jury.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
No jury.
And then you present, we gotthis new evidence, and then the
state responds, and then thejudge makes a decision?
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
And then the judge decides, right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And we were in a pretty strong position for that
evidence you're hearing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:21):
I mean, I think so.
Yeah, that's my opinion.
And I don't think it would havebeen heard before Judge Burnett,
I think he was out of theoriginal judge who had heard the
post-conviction hearings andeverything else until that
point, was not going to behearing the evidentiary hearing,
was not going to be the judgefor that hearing or for a new
(08:41):
trial for that matter.
I
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
wish there had been an evidentiary hearing.
I think a lot of your work wouldhave really shined, but it
worked out well for the client.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Yes, those are things to consider.
It's not about you, right?
I think a lot of peopleobviously have questioned that
how you know they got thedefendants were granted this
hearing you know from thehearing we were gonna most
likely we think get i think geta new trial but how long does
that take
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
right could be years more right
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
oh my gosh yeah and
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
you've already been on death row for 18 years
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
so i certainly
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
it's easy to sit here right yeah and say oh yeah
let's sure let's just wait thatout a little bit longer right
but i'm not sitting behind barsi think one day if you're
innocent sitting behind bars istoo much.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Did it require all three of the defendants to sign
off on it?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
I believe so.
I believe that was what was, allof this is happening behind the
scenes, right?
So I am not involved in any ofthe negotiations and what led up
to their release for the Alfordplea.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
There was a speaking engagement and it was Jason
Baldwin was there.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
He was talking and he did not want to take the
Alford plea, which we'll talkabout that in a second, what
that is.
But, But he said that he didbecause they were going to kill
Damien.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
Damien's still in death row.
And Damien was not in a goodphysical condition.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Those are his words.
I would have stayed in jail.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
You would have?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
No, me?
No, this is what Jason said.
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
Oh, right, right, right.
Okay.
Yeah, I think that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
He wanted an exoneration.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Yeah, I believe Jason has come out and said
that.
And I think that was obviouslygoing on.
So, well, from what I know frommy perspective at that time
period was, let's flash forward.
So we have the evidentiaryhearing.
And it's not scheduled yet,though.
I think there's been a couple ofdelays.
That is not uncommon.
I mean, some of my murderclients sit in jail for years
(10:37):
before they go to trial.
There's constant continuancesand delays.
That was happening.
Behind the scenes, apparently,there were negotiations
happening between attorneys forall parties and the prosecutor.
And all I know is that I got atext from Lori maybe one or two
days before very close in timeto their release date of August
(11:01):
19th of 2011 is when they werereleased and Lori tells me she
maybe even called me but I knowI got a text first maybe a
telephone conversation laterthat what are you doing on
August 19th we want you to be inJonesboro because something is
going to be happening
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
did she know
SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
yeah of course she knew I mean
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
but she didn't tell you tell you
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
I yes I believe she did tell me but I was you know
it was very like don't this isnot Not, you know, keep it to
yourself, but we want you to bethere.
So I do remember I had a coupleof attorneys.
So I think the Commercial Appealor the news stations had caught
wind that something washappening in Jonesboro.
And so I do remember people weretexting me saying, hey, what's
(11:46):
going on?
Of course, I'm like, I have noidea.
Can't say.
But I just remember it's hardfor me, and it's really hard for
me to tell you exactlyeverything that played out over
the course of those next fewdays because I think I was so
overwhelmed by the emotion ofwhat was about to happen.
I mean, you work on these casesfor years.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
This never happens,
SPEAKER_02 (12:08):
right?
Well, for me, that was the firsttime I'd ever had a client
released like he was going to befree, right?
Like with Clarence Nesbitt,there had been cases.
Remember I mentioned him, he wastaken off of death row, but he's
still in prison.
You know, that has happened.
But to have a death row client,leave death row and walk out.
(12:31):
He didn't walk out of prison.
He went to court first and theywalked out of court a free man.
That was an incredible moment.
And it's really hard to put intowords.
So Lori had said, we want you tobe there.
There's going to betransportation set up leaving
from Peabody or the MadisonHotel downtown that morning.
So I showed up.
I go and there's these two vansthat they had rented.
(12:54):
We drive to Jonesboro.
SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
Big black limo vans, right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, they were.
Something like that.
Yeah, it was pretty surreal,actually.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Who's in the van?
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
Oh, God, I can't remember everyone that was
there.
That's what's crazy.
You know, I don't really evenremember.
I still think I was just so,like, overwhelmed by the moment.
And we get to Jonesboro.
There's so many people there,you know.
Because people
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
know now, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
I don't know if they knew or not, honestly.
I mean, people were there, but Idon't know if they knew exactly
what was going to be.
happening?
I bet they did.
I don't remember.
They
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
cut in live.
SPEAKER_02 (13:33):
They did?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Were you watching it?
I was.
I was watching it and texting
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
you.
Okay.
Was I texting back?
What was I saying?
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
Almost not at all.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
Sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
That's okay.
Like
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
I said, I think I was just so overwhelmed.
I cried a little bit.
You did?
A little bit, yeah.
Oh, that's amazing.
So we're at court and we're kindof kept, there's a bunch of
people there and there's peoplethat are outside the courthouse.
There's people that are filinginto the courtroom.
We are in a separate room,outside the courtroom, but not
in court and not with everyoneelse.
(14:03):
I do remember Eddie Vedder wasin there.
Was he
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
in the van with you?
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
I don't know if he was in my van or the other van,
but I do remember Eddie Vedderwas in the room where we were
being held before we went intothe courtroom.
That was really cool, obviously.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Was that when you sent me that selfie picture of
you and Eddie Vedder?
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yes, he took a photo with me, and so I have this
photo with Eddie Vedder, myfavorite musician of all time,
yes.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Find that for me, and I'll put it on the website.
SPEAKER_02 (14:35):
Sure.
I definitely still have it.
So we're in this room, kind ofjust all hanging out, you know,
waiting to see what's going tohappen.
We go into the courtroom,everyone, the judge is in there,
and then I remember the judgespoke, the three defendants, you
know, gave their Alford pleas,all maintaining their innocence.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Let's talk about what an Alford plea is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:55):
Yeah, an Alford plea is a plea where you, it's a best
interest plea.
So you can maintain yourinnocence.
You say, I didn't do this, but Iknow it's in my best interest to
plead guilty to this.
And it's used quite often herelocally.
I'm actually having to have hadseveral clients take Alford
pleas.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
That really opened the door for Alford pleas,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
I don't know if that case did
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
or maybe.
You probably know better thanme.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
Yeah, you're probably right.
I don't know if I had that manyAlford pleas before 2011.
But it
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
seems to me like it's purely a phase.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
case out of normalcy.
North Carolina that establishedthat.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Alford plea?
Yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but itis almost purely a face-saving
measure for the state.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yes, I believe so.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Okay, tell me when I'm wrong.
The defendant is pleadingguilty, I'm doing air quotes,
but is being released whilestill maintaining his innocence.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Right.
Now, not every Alford plea endsin a release.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (15:54):
So there are sometimes an Alford plea happens
where you are pleading to alesser sentence, but you're
still serving a sentence.
But they're still allowed to doan Alford plea.
So if someone's indicted onmurder, first-degree murder, and
they are allowed to do an Alfordplea for voluntary manslaughter,
they are still, I've had clientswho are still allowed
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
to say.
That's an Alford plea?
I thought that was just pleadingto a lesser charge.
SPEAKER_02 (16:19):
Well, you're pleading guilty, but you're also
able to say, I'm maintaining myinnocence.
I've been sitting in jail for myclients in particular.
I've been sitting in jail nowfor three years or longer I've
got three years you know servedalready so if I plead to
voluntary manslaughter I mighteven have a time served sentence
(16:39):
or I might have to serve anotherfew months before I'm either you
know I'm eligible for parolewhatever you know the sentence
ends up being on that there's arange obviously so you're still
able to do that you know it'sstill in your best interest
because instead of waiting forsome date in the future where
I'm going to go to trial in thiscase that I do think that I'm
still saying I'm innocent forand maybe I could win that
trial, I'm choosing to take thisplea, maintain my innocence, and
(17:05):
then serve just another few moremonths or a year or whatever
that ends up being.
Start
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
to put it behind you.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
still in their best interest.
Right.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Well, yeah.
I mean,
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
if I was sitting here with one of my sons and
they were facing a charge thatthey said they were...
I think every time I'm talkingto a client, I'm thinking, what
would I tell my child?
Right.
And is this in your bestinterest is, you know, not.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
Do you ever say it like that?
Yeah.
If you were my son, I would saytake this plea.
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
That's powerful.
Okay.
You get to court that day.
You're in the Jonesborocourthouse.
You're sitting there with EddieVedder.
They take their Alfred pleas,all three of the defendants?
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
They do.
Okay.
And they all make it very clearthey're maintaining their
innocence when they do it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Okay.
What happens next?
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Now it's a whirlwind, really.
They leave, right?
They leave.
Just walk out of jail.
They walked out.
Well, they walked out of court.
So they walked out of court andthey got into the vans and
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
left Arkansas.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
And left.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Okay.
Let me sum this up.
You told me where I'm wrong.
Damien, so dangerous becausethey are convicted murderers.
Damien has to be in solitaryconfinement on death row.
That's how bad he is.
And then one day the state says,yeah, okay, we'll give you this
offer plea and you can justleave after 18 years.
My bad.
They don't even say my badthough.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
No.
Oh, the judge actually saidreally nice things, actually.
It was a different judge.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
Yeah, but the state of Arkansas just let these boys
go after saying...
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Well, they were under...
I think they were undersupervision.
Were they not really real...
There were some sort ofstipulations on their release
for a period of 10 years.
Oh, is that right?
10 years, yeah.
No, it wasn't just a, youknow...
Still, though.
Yeah.
No, I mean, no, I...
It galls me.
I understand...
It makes me angry.
I understand the greater pointhere.
So this is a horrific crimesomebody committed.
(18:57):
Right.
And you think you still havethree convictions, so you're
just going to move on.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And that's exactly what thestate of Arkansas did.
Yeah.
Right?
That is not what we did.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
So they give their offer, please.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
You leave the courthouse.
You're walking out of thecourthouse.
And this is, I think I saw you,because there's cameras.
It's live, like I said.
SPEAKER_02 (19:18):
Oh, yeah.
Maybe there was a, no, you'reright.
We didn't immediately leave.
Was there a press conference,like, at the courthouse?
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
You know, I think there was.
Was it
SPEAKER_02 (19:27):
later?
I
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
think there was.
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
There was one at the courthouse.
I remember there was a panelpress conference where Damien,
Jesse.
And you were on TV.
I stood behind them.
Yeah.
And that was amazing just to bea part of that group of people.
Like when I think about thepeople that were there, you
know, it was obviously Jason'sattorneys that I didn't really
have a whole lot of contact withthroughout the process.
(19:50):
But Jesse's attorneys, I did.
I had more contact with.
And, of course, our attorneys,Steve Braga, Dennis Reardon.
and Don Horgan, amazing, amazingpeople and attorneys to have
worked with.
I feel very fortunate to haveworked with them.
And then there were otherpeople, other attorneys that had
worked on Jesse's case, inparticular Steve Drizzen and
(20:11):
Laura Narider, who worked on thefalse confession, I think, part
of Jesse's appeal.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah, we should do an episode on that confession.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah, well, I later got to work with Steve and Laura
on another case I had inArkansas for a period of time,
and that was amazing, too.
So making those kind ofconnections with just some
really awesome, brilliantlawyers.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah, I would say, are those Arkansas lawyers?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
No, no, no, no.
At the time, well, when I workedwith Steve and Laura, they were
working at the Bloom Law Clinic,which was affiliated with
Northwestern Law School, andthey would take cases, you know,
pro bono.
They were doing some cases inArkansas, primarily juvenile
cases at the time when I workedwith them.
(20:56):
Now it's called something elseit's called the wrongful
conviction center or somethingand it's in illinois so but
there yeah it was great to workwith them and then obviously
also to just be standing behindyour client you know we i was
standing behind damien who hadfor
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
years literally this time
SPEAKER_02 (21:13):
this yeah and as a free as a as a free man yeah you
know and just to feel thatmoment it was just incredible i
mean it's really hard to putinto words but it's very it's It
was just a massive, massivemoment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
And then, so there's a brief press conference, and
then you get in the van.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
We get in the van, and we go back to Memphis.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
so we get back to Memphis.
I believe everybody got droppedoff at the Madison Hotel.
Did I come home, and then we goback downtown?
I think we did.
Yes.
No.
I do.
I think I do remember this.
They were having a get-togetherthat night at the Madison Hotel
that we had been invited to.
Also had been invited...
was Glory Shettles, who hadworked as Damien's mitigation
(22:04):
specialist for his originaltrials.
And Ron Lacks was invited, ifI'm not mistaken.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
Was he there,
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
though?
He didn't come.
Interesting.
And now he might have, you know,Ron has since passed away.
So this was 2011, and I thinkRon passed away in 2013.
So I have no idea if he wasfeeling ill or, you know, but I
do, if I'm not mistaken, Ron wasalso, I mean, I didn't
personally invite him, but Ithink he was, from what Glory
had told me.
Glory, I think I go home, you'rethere, and Glory comes over to
(22:33):
our house and drove with usdowntown, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (22:35):
I don't remember that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
I think she came with us.
So we went to the Madison Hotel.
I mean, can you imagine whatGlory, we have to have Glory on
at some point, but what Glorymust have felt like, you know,
just saying and saying hi toDamien, you know, just seeing
him out.
I mean, she'd never seen him outeither.
(22:57):
I mean, But she had been longerfor her.
So we're talking 1993.
Yeah.
And she, you know, had visitedhim many times when he was in
jail, pre-trial.
And, I mean, that is just anincredible.
And she obviously can speak toit better than I can.
But we did get, you know,several photos with her and
Damian and Lori and with theattorneys.
(23:19):
And we hung out on the rooftop.
And Eddie Vedder and Anna LeeMaines were there.
And they sang a
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
song.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
We were trying to remember what song it was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
I know.
I can't remember.
I
SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
can't remember.
It's just too big of a moment.
You can't remember those things.
I wish we'd written all thisstuff down, right?
I
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
wish I'd recorded it.
UNKNOWN (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
That was really cool.
I remember we got drinks at thebar in the lobby.
Downstairs?
Yeah, before we went up.
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
And then the bartenders were talking about
it, like, Eddie Vedder's in thehotel.
He's on the roof.
He's on the roof.
Something's going on.
And we're sitting there, andthen somebody comes to get us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
Okay.
I don't remember that.
I mean, vaguely.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then going to the roof, andthen I see the bartenders, like,
their jaws drop a little bit,and I'm like, yeah, we're going
upstairs.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
Yeah, and then we get up there.
There are two ginormous bouncersin the hallway.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
And I think I knew one of them.
SPEAKER_02 (24:16):
You probably did.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
I've been beaten up by a lot of bouncers.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Right.
Yes.
We won't talk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
But he nodded, and I nodded at him.
They checked our name, so Idon't know if he knew me or not.
Like you said, it's a weird,weird experience.
And then we go out there.
You had told me before.
You're like, just be cool.
Eddie Vedder's going to bethere.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, yeah, I'll befine.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
weird, though, right?
It's weird.
SPEAKER_00 (24:37):
And then I get up there, and I just, like, froze.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
I know.
It's so strange.
I'm like,
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Eddie Vedder's over
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
there.
This is, like, musically.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
You were super cool.
You, like, you called me over.
Like, Eddie, this is my husband,Tony.
Tony, Eddie.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Oh, well, I'm good.
I'm glad that was very cool andsmooth.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
He's a cool dude.
SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
Yeah, very down to earth.
I mean, had been funding, youknow, helping fund the defense
for years.
Yeah.
We had actually gone to one ofhis concerts.
There was a benefit concert inLittle Rock before their
release.
That's right.
And we went to that.
And, I mean, and then we justgrew up.
Our formative music years as ateen, you know, we're listening
to Pearl Jam.
(25:13):
Right.
Right?
I mean, this was our jam.
And I don't say jam that much,you guys.
But, I mean, seriously, when youtalk about Pearl Jam, it's the
jam, right?
Yeah, it was neat.
It was amazing.
Being a part of that and beingup there and, you know, having
Damien I'm sure I can't evenimagine what Damien or the Dick
Jason or Jesse wasn't therethough
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
he was not
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
he was not there
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
he was not on the vans either
SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
oh did he go home with his family maybe yeah he
went back to I actually ran intoJesse once
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
you told me this
SPEAKER_02 (25:44):
yeah it was many years ago now I was in when we
lived in Midtown the Walmart toshop at was in West Memphis
Arkansas it's the closest one soI was over there shopping one
day and I think it was a Sundayand And Jesse Miskelley was in
there.
And I said hello.
How did he look?
He looked fine.
Yeah.
Did he know who you were?
I mean, that was like many yearsago.
(26:05):
No, I had no idea who I was.
So I don't even know if I toldhim, hey, I was that
investigator that worked on thecase.
I think I just said, hey, JesseMiskelley.
And I said, how are you?
And he said, I'm fine.
He had no idea who I was.
No.
But, yeah, it's the only timeI've seen him, though.
Not that, I mean, and I don'treally go to West Memphis that
often anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yeah, so we sat there and we drank a bunch of
beers.
and hung out with Natalie Mainesand Eddie Vedder and Damian and
Lori.
Anyway, it was a big night.
A lot of fun.
SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
It was.
It really was.
I don't
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
remember how it ended.
Maybe it never did.
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
The next day, no, I don't actually remember either.
I mean, we left, obviously.
And the next day, that is whenAmy Berg was coming over with
her crew to do a little filmingfor West of Memphis.
That was the next day.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
That was the very next day?
It was.
Holy cow.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yes.
I think I looked a little toopuffy.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
You were a little puffy.
I was a little
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
puffy that day.
Yeah.
So the next day, yes, Amy Berg,they're filming West of Memphis.
She had, I don't even rememberhow long at this point Amy had
started filming West of Memphisand had been in Memphis.
SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
I did a lot of work for Amy.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
You did?
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Yes.
You were busy.
So Amy would need reports andstuff like that.
And you introduced me to her viaemail and or text.
And she would tell me what sheneeded.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
Oh, for the documentary?
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Oh, as far as the investigation.
Yeah.
Yeah, you would see a lot of myreports that look like my
reports flashing up on thescreen during West of Memphis
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
I was a huge part of that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
You really were.
But so the next, the day afterthe release, they come over to
the house and we did it on thefront porch, right?
Filming for the documentary isweird to me, you know, because I
kind of feel like, well, I'm notused to, and even sometimes this
podcast is weird to me becauseyou're asking me questions.
(27:57):
Yeah.
I am usually the one who asksquestions, right, of people.
That's what I've been doing forthe past 26 years.
So being asked questions isstill something that is new to
me.
For the documentary, you know,they would ask me questions and
then there were other times theycame for filming and I would
have to act like I was doing mywork, right, not really doing my
(28:20):
work.
So it was all very bizarre tome, like being filmed for a
documentary where I'm actinglike the investigator and
redoing things.
I remember one time they had mewalk in and out of FedEx.
I guess because I would send offsome of the DNA stuff.
That's not in the documentary, Ithink.
(28:42):
But I just remember that waskind of weird and now hilarious.
We get coming in and out of a
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
FedEx store.
Yeah, it's weird to see how thesausage gets made.
I helped them set up on thefront porch.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
You did.
You had some experience withthat because you majored in
communications in it.
done things.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
Yeah, communications with a concentration in film and
video production.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Anyway, I remember we had this, I had been meaning
to fix this for years, but wehad this telephone cord, right,
where the telephone service cameinto our house.
It was pinned up on the side ofthe
SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
porch.
Yes, I remember this.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
And it was hanging down.
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
And I asked Amy, I'm like, you want me to, you want
me to go, because I think you'dalready started filming.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
I was like, let me go fix that cord for you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
You don't want that cord hanging down, now.
SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
And she's like, no, I want it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
She wants the cord hanging down.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
She wanted the cord.
She wanted us to look like...
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
The cord would be hanging down on our porch.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
Yeah.
She wanted us...
Thanks,
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Amy.
Yeah.
No, that's just natural.
That's what the porch lookedlike, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
Yeah.
You're like, I really want tomove that cord.
I
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
did.
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
You should have done it in advance, Tony.
You should have scoped out theplace.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:47):
I had no idea where they were going to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
Yeah.
I had no idea either,
SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
honestly.
It was a hot
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
day, too.
But yeah, I remember there was acouple of times we would be
filming on other days, and Iwould be driving...
Like the driving shots, I thinkare so funny.
Cause I literally, I mean, I'mnot fake driving.
We're really, we are driving,but you know, we're driving
across the bridge and I don'tknow that the camera guy, I wish
I could remember their namescause they were super cool.
(30:12):
Um, would it be asking mequestions and I would, you know,
have to talk while I'm drivingand, but you know, I'm not
really working.
I'm not, I'm just driving acrossthis bridge.
Right.
So the only time though that Idid, the only time I felt very
comfortable in the filming ofthe documentary was when I was
actually doing my job.
There was at the very end, Ithink they were even in the
(30:33):
editing stages of West ofMemphis when, you know, they had
the West, the fund, the WestMemphis Three Group, whoever,
the defense attorneys had set upa tip line in like, I think,
2009.
And I did not handle the tipline.
Another investigator out of NewYork, they brought in who had
worked with Steve, I think onthe Marty Tankleff case, I
(30:57):
think.
J Salpeter he was handling thetip line and so every once in a
while a tip would come in aftertheir release even and I was I
don't know just in Memphis and Igot a call like hey can I get to
the other side of Arkansas to dosome work some tips that come in
they want you to follow up on itso I'm like sure so I go to you
(31:21):
know the other east Arkansas I'msorry west Arkansas to do some
interviews and then a film crewshows up and they're with me and
so some of the interviews at theend of west of memphis that are
done are actually me you knowspeaking doing the interview and
that was really the only timeyeah that i felt like
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
anything cool come out of the tip line
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
uh yeah oh well you know other some things that i
don't know if it's cool or notbut there are some things that
came from the tip line thatended up i think in some of the
filings i don't know how manytips they got like i said i
didn't run the tip line i wouldjust get a call or and it might
be other invest investigatorsgot other calls I have you know
there's other people working onthis case but every once in a
while I would get a call andthey would say you know can you
(32:04):
follow up on this on this tipand so I would go do that but on
that one occasion I did it withthe film crew because I think
like Amy might have even been inNew Zealand and with Lori and
Damien I think we're over theretoo because they were finishing
up the editing on West ofMemphis Amy couldn't be there to
do it and so I had to actuallydo the interview and then they
(32:25):
wanted it filmed so we had tofilm me doing the but you don't
see me on camera I'm behind thescenes which just felt much more
natural
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
to me that's really cool
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
okay so that so that was the story of their release
and our experience with that youknow I like I said before I've
got one other client who's ondeath row Jesse Dotson and
that's the case we're going totalk to a little bit but about
what I can I mean his case isstill in federal court.
(32:59):
He's in federal court now.
We'll talk about what I can'ttalk about.
I can only imagine, you know,working on another case.
I mean, I just feel veryfortunate that I've had to
gotten to experience working ona case where a client was
actually freed from death row.
You know, I really, honestly, Ireally hope that is the case for
Jesse Dotson at some point too.
Wow.
I really want to bring morelight to his case if we can and
(33:22):
see him walk out of prisonsomeday too.
But it was an amazingexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
It It really was.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Yeah, and I'm glad I got to share it with you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:29):
Yeah, it was really cool being able to see it up
close like that.
A little bit of behind thescenes stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yeah.
And so next time we are going totalk, I think this is going to
be one of the last episodes wedo where we talk exclusively
about, you know, our experiencewith Damien's case because
there's still stuff going on,right?
I mean, that day was not thelast day I did anything on
Damien's case.
The next episode we'll betalking about one moment in my
(33:54):
26 year career That is one topthree moment.
Top three.
Top three.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
Okay.
Episode five.
Top three moment in Rachel'scareer.
I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:07):
Hands down.
Hands down.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Don't tell me what it is between now and then.
I want to be surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (34:11):
Okay.
Well, we won't talk about itthen.
Okay.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Until next time.
Love you, Manit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Love you, Manit.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Bye.
For 26 years, Rachel Geiser has worked behind the
scenes of America's toughesttrials.
As a criminal defenseinvestigator, she stood with
defense teams in cases that madeheadlines, and many that never
did, but changed lives forever.
This is the Geiser Files.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Trump has held this night on the stereo.
Place your hands in mine, sovery low.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Okay, we're doing it.
Hello and welcome to GeyserFiles episode four.
Cuatro, as the Spanish friendsin the audience would say.
Bienvenido a episod cuatro.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
Hello, Tony.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Hi, Rachel.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Hola.
I know very little Spanish,believe it or not.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Pequeño.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
I don't have a whole lot of Hispanic clients, believe
it or not, in Memphis.
That doesn't come up for me veryoften.
I haven't needed the expertiseof a translator in a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
When I worked with you, I had a couple of Spanish
cases, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
Spanish speaking?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Yes.
Yes.
But they were all witnesses andvictims.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Yes.
So what would you do when youwere in the field and had to...
Well, we should stop for asecond.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Because I don't think our audience knows.
What?
You worked as a privateinvestigator for a minute,
didn't you?
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
I did.
I thought we did talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
I don't think we have.
Maybe
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
we have.
Well, briefly, we discussed howbad I was at it because I would
get out of the car car at anapartment complex.
You could hear all the doorsslamming shut and locking.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
I don't think we've talked about this, though.
Maybe that was mentioned in aprevious episode, but yes.
So, Tony, we worked together asprivate investigators for a
period of time, did we not?
And when was this?
Do you recall?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
I do not recall any dates whatsoever.
I'm horrible at dates, but I doknow that I worked for you,
let's be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
No, we were a partnership, Tony, like we are
now and have been for the over20 years no you I believe you
worked with me it was after yougot your degree before you went
back to school so it was 20102011 I think something like that
(02:16):
sure I think
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
so I'm horrible at those kinds of
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
chronologies
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
you are a very very smart brilliant man
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
wow yes thank you
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
but you did have some difficulty sometimes with
getting people to talk to you oranswer the door, really.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah.
So a big part of the job isgetting out there and beating
the bushes, so to speak.
Right.
When I would show up at thekinds of places where you have
to do this work.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Which are people's homes in Memphis.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
They see me coming and onepresumes that they think I am a
cop.
So they all just go back intotheir homes and lock their doors
and do not answer when I knockon it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Right.
Yes.
So we were going into the innercity neighborhoods of Memphis.
Quite a bit.
Obviously, that's where ourwitnesses live.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
I still do on
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
occasion.
When you would show up, peoplewould not come to the door and
answer the door, right?
And what did I suggest to you?
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Tell me to put on a baseball cap.
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
Right.
And then what happened?
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Because we all know that cops do not wear baseball
caps.
SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
You just look less formal.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
It's a fine line you got to walk, right?
If you're going to get people totalk to you, you don't want to.
So I wouldn't wear like suitsand ties out into the field
because that screams cop.
But you got to looksemi-official, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Yeah, you have to look.
Yeah, you have to look likeyou're there for a purpose, but
that not there to arrestsomeone.
I think sometimes just putting ahat on, a baseball hat in
particular for men, just kind ofputs people a little bit more at
ease.
So, did you get people to answerthe door after you put the hat
on?
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
On occasion, what would normally happen was they'd
see me coming, they wouldn'tanswer the door.
I'd leave a card on the doorthat says, Anthony Geiser,
private investigator, GeiserInvestigative Services, which
gets a big response, right?
People get a privateinvestigator's card on their
door and they're like, what theheck is this all about?
So I got a lot of callbacks.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
You did?
And would they agree to talk toyou when they called you back?
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Generally speaking, if I could talk to somebody, I
could get them to talk to me.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Okay.
That's good.
Because a lot of times when you,we have to leave guards
sometimes.
You can only go to someone'shouse so many times.
And a lot of times though, whenthey do call you, when people
call you, they don't agree to aninterview.
It's easier for them to tell youno on a telephone as opposed to
in your face when you'restanding, you know, at their
front door.
Or
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
they don't show up where they say they're going to.
Or they schedule a time for youto come back, and then they're
still not there and they don'tanswer.
They
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
don't come, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah, which is odd to me.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
so it's always best to do the interview, show up
unannounced, and have peopletalk to you then.
They're less prepared, and theyhave less time to flee.
I mean, we're not trying to keeppeople captive in doing
interviews.
obviously but we do want theopportunity to have people speak
(05:03):
with us about the case if theywill and it's easier to hang up
on you if you call them
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
yep and I had a little script I would say that
I'm pretty sure I got from youwhen you start let them know I'm
a private investigator I workfor so-and-so who is a defendant
on this case I'm not a cop I'mnot a lawyer you don't have to
talk to me and then go into yourquestions right don't just start
asking questions
SPEAKER_02 (05:26):
yeah I know honestly I feel like Yeah, I think that
the biggest thing is tellingpeople repeatedly.
I tell people, you don't have totalk to me.
You're doing me a favor bytalking to me.
You're doing my client a favorby talking to me, good or bad,
whatever it is you have to say.
I just want to know what it isyou saw or heard, what you know
about this case.
And that almost always, peoplelike to talk.
(05:48):
People want to tell you theirstories.
Look at the billions of podcastsout there.
People want to talk about theirlife and their experiences.
With very little exception, Ihave been very, very successful
in having people tell me whatthey witnessed on cases.
And I do know, though, that youhad a difficult time.
(06:10):
I look less like a cop than youdo.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
That's another thing.
I do have a cop look.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
You do.
You're very handsome and, youknow, six foot over.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
Six foot two.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
Six foot two, yes.
And, yeah, you did give off thatvibe.
I give off, I think, a socialworker vibe what do you think
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
yeah
SPEAKER_02 (06:31):
right um that is to my advantage i think way off
topic but i just wanted theaudience to know it
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
was exactly the topic because you brought it up
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
yeah that you you have worked with me during a
period of time even on the westmemphis three and the jesse
dotson case you know that we'regoing to talk about later to
some extent um you worked withme during that time period
actually
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
i did
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
yeah so where did we leave off last time on damian
eccles case I
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
have no idea.
I think
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
we left off with after the DNA testing was done
and there had been some reportsthat come back.
We continued.
We were continuing ourinvestigation.
Dennis had argued before theArkansas Supreme Court and the
defendants have been granted anevidentiary hearing.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
That's where we left off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
That's where we left off.
So that would have been.
What
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
is an evidentiary hearing?
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
Well, what the Arkansas Supreme Court said and
what what we asked for was thatall of the new information
specifically from the DNAreports and should be
considered.
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
Considered for what?
New
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
trial?
For a new trial, right?
So is it enough?
Is there enough new informationfor a court to consider whether
or not the defendant shouldreceive a new trial, basically?
Okay.
So you're going to have thishearing first.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
It's a trial to see if we're going to get a new
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
trial.
It's like a mini trial to see ifyou're going to get an actual
trial.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Very interesting.
What are the rules then?
There's no jury.
It's just the opposing counseland a judge?
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah, there's no jury.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
No jury.
And then you present, we gotthis new evidence, and then the
state responds, and then thejudge makes a decision?
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
And then the judge decides, right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And we were in a pretty strong position for that
evidence you're hearing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:21):
I mean, I think so.
Yeah, that's my opinion.
And I don't think it would havebeen heard before Judge Burnett,
I think he was out of theoriginal judge who had heard the
post-conviction hearings andeverything else until that
point, was not going to behearing the evidentiary hearing,
was not going to be the judgefor that hearing or for a new
(08:41):
trial for that matter.
I
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
wish there had been an evidentiary hearing.
I think a lot of your work wouldhave really shined, but it
worked out well for the client.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Yes, those are things to consider.
It's not about you, right?
I think a lot of peopleobviously have questioned that
how you know they got thedefendants were granted this
hearing you know from thehearing we were gonna most
likely we think get i think geta new trial but how long does
that take
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
right could be years more right
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
oh my gosh yeah and
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
you've already been on death row for 18 years
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
so i certainly
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
it's easy to sit here right yeah and say oh yeah
let's sure let's just wait thatout a little bit longer right
but i'm not sitting behind barsi think one day if you're
innocent sitting behind bars istoo much.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Did it require all three of the defendants to sign
off on it?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
I believe so.
I believe that was what was, allof this is happening behind the
scenes, right?
So I am not involved in any ofthe negotiations and what led up
to their release for the Alfordplea.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
There was a speaking engagement and it was Jason
Baldwin was there.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
He was talking and he did not want to take the
Alford plea, which we'll talkabout that in a second, what
that is.
But, But he said that he didbecause they were going to kill
Damien.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
Damien's still in death row.
And Damien was not in a goodphysical condition.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Those are his words.
I would have stayed in jail.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
You would have?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
No, me?
No, this is what Jason said.
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
Oh, right, right, right.
Okay.
Yeah, I think that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
He wanted an exoneration.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Yeah, I believe Jason has come out and said
that.
And I think that was obviouslygoing on.
So, well, from what I know frommy perspective at that time
period was, let's flash forward.
So we have the evidentiaryhearing.
And it's not scheduled yet,though.
I think there's been a couple ofdelays.
That is not uncommon.
I mean, some of my murderclients sit in jail for years
(10:37):
before they go to trial.
There's constant continuancesand delays.
That was happening.
Behind the scenes, apparently,there were negotiations
happening between attorneys forall parties and the prosecutor.
And all I know is that I got atext from Lori maybe one or two
days before very close in timeto their release date of August
(11:01):
19th of 2011 is when they werereleased and Lori tells me she
maybe even called me but I knowI got a text first maybe a
telephone conversation laterthat what are you doing on
August 19th we want you to be inJonesboro because something is
going to be happening
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
did she know
SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
yeah of course she knew I mean
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
but she didn't tell you tell you
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
I yes I believe she did tell me but I was you know
it was very like don't this isnot Not, you know, keep it to
yourself, but we want you to bethere.
So I do remember I had a coupleof attorneys.
So I think the Commercial Appealor the news stations had caught
wind that something washappening in Jonesboro.
And so I do remember people weretexting me saying, hey, what's
(11:46):
going on?
Of course, I'm like, I have noidea.
Can't say.
But I just remember it's hardfor me, and it's really hard for
me to tell you exactlyeverything that played out over
the course of those next fewdays because I think I was so
overwhelmed by the emotion ofwhat was about to happen.
I mean, you work on these casesfor years.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
This never happens,
SPEAKER_02 (12:08):
right?
Well, for me, that was the firsttime I'd ever had a client
released like he was going to befree, right?
Like with Clarence Nesbitt,there had been cases.
Remember I mentioned him, he wastaken off of death row, but he's
still in prison.
You know, that has happened.
But to have a death row client,leave death row and walk out.
(12:31):
He didn't walk out of prison.
He went to court first and theywalked out of court a free man.
That was an incredible moment.
And it's really hard to put intowords.
So Lori had said, we want you tobe there.
There's going to betransportation set up leaving
from Peabody or the MadisonHotel downtown that morning.
So I showed up.
I go and there's these two vansthat they had rented.
(12:54):
We drive to Jonesboro.
SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
Big black limo vans, right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, they were.
Something like that.
Yeah, it was pretty surreal,actually.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Who's in the van?
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
Oh, God, I can't remember everyone that was
there.
That's what's crazy.
You know, I don't really evenremember.
I still think I was just so,like, overwhelmed by the moment.
And we get to Jonesboro.
There's so many people there,you know.
Because people
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
know now, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
I don't know if they knew or not, honestly.
I mean, people were there, but Idon't know if they knew exactly
what was going to be.
happening?
I bet they did.
I don't remember.
They
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
cut in live.
SPEAKER_02 (13:33):
They did?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Were you watching it?
I was.
I was watching it and texting
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
you.
Okay.
Was I texting back?
What was I saying?
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
Almost not at all.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
Sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
That's okay.
Like
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
I said, I think I was just so overwhelmed.
I cried a little bit.
You did?
A little bit, yeah.
Oh, that's amazing.
So we're at court and we're kindof kept, there's a bunch of
people there and there's peoplethat are outside the courthouse.
There's people that are filinginto the courtroom.
We are in a separate room,outside the courtroom, but not
in court and not with everyoneelse.
(14:03):
I do remember Eddie Vedder wasin there.
Was he
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
in the van with you?
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
I don't know if he was in my van or the other van,
but I do remember Eddie Vedderwas in the room where we were
being held before we went intothe courtroom.
That was really cool, obviously.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Was that when you sent me that selfie picture of
you and Eddie Vedder?
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yes, he took a photo with me, and so I have this
photo with Eddie Vedder, myfavorite musician of all time,
yes.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Find that for me, and I'll put it on the website.
SPEAKER_02 (14:35):
Sure.
I definitely still have it.
So we're in this room, kind ofjust all hanging out, you know,
waiting to see what's going tohappen.
We go into the courtroom,everyone, the judge is in there,
and then I remember the judgespoke, the three defendants, you
know, gave their Alford pleas,all maintaining their innocence.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Let's talk about what an Alford plea is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:55):
Yeah, an Alford plea is a plea where you, it's a best
interest plea.
So you can maintain yourinnocence.
You say, I didn't do this, but Iknow it's in my best interest to
plead guilty to this.
And it's used quite often herelocally.
I'm actually having to have hadseveral clients take Alford
pleas.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
That really opened the door for Alford pleas,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
I don't know if that case did
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
or maybe.
You probably know better thanme.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
Yeah, you're probably right.
I don't know if I had that manyAlford pleas before 2011.
But it
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
seems to me like it's purely a phase.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
case out of normalcy.
North Carolina that establishedthat.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Alford plea?
Yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but itis almost purely a face-saving
measure for the state.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yes, I believe so.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Okay, tell me when I'm wrong.
The defendant is pleadingguilty, I'm doing air quotes,
but is being released whilestill maintaining his innocence.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Right.
Now, not every Alford plea endsin a release.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (15:54):
So there are sometimes an Alford plea happens
where you are pleading to alesser sentence, but you're
still serving a sentence.
But they're still allowed to doan Alford plea.
So if someone's indicted onmurder, first-degree murder, and
they are allowed to do an Alfordplea for voluntary manslaughter,
they are still, I've had clientswho are still allowed
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
to say.
That's an Alford plea?
I thought that was just pleadingto a lesser charge.
SPEAKER_02 (16:19):
Well, you're pleading guilty, but you're also
able to say, I'm maintaining myinnocence.
I've been sitting in jail for myclients in particular.
I've been sitting in jail nowfor three years or longer I've
got three years you know servedalready so if I plead to
voluntary manslaughter I mighteven have a time served sentence
(16:39):
or I might have to serve anotherfew months before I'm either you
know I'm eligible for parolewhatever you know the sentence
ends up being on that there's arange obviously so you're still
able to do that you know it'sstill in your best interest
because instead of waiting forsome date in the future where
I'm going to go to trial in thiscase that I do think that I'm
still saying I'm innocent forand maybe I could win that
trial, I'm choosing to take thisplea, maintain my innocence, and
(17:05):
then serve just another few moremonths or a year or whatever
that ends up being.
Start
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
to put it behind you.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
still in their best interest.
Right.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Well, yeah.
I mean,
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
if I was sitting here with one of my sons and
they were facing a charge thatthey said they were...
I think every time I'm talkingto a client, I'm thinking, what
would I tell my child?
Right.
And is this in your bestinterest is, you know, not.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
Do you ever say it like that?
Yeah.
If you were my son, I would saytake this plea.
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
That's powerful.
Okay.
You get to court that day.
You're in the Jonesborocourthouse.
You're sitting there with EddieVedder.
They take their Alfred pleas,all three of the defendants?
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
They do.
Okay.
And they all make it very clearthey're maintaining their
innocence when they do it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Okay.
What happens next?
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Now it's a whirlwind, really.
They leave, right?
They leave.
Just walk out of jail.
They walked out.
Well, they walked out of court.
So they walked out of court andthey got into the vans and
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
left Arkansas.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
And left.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Okay.
Let me sum this up.
You told me where I'm wrong.
Damien, so dangerous becausethey are convicted murderers.
Damien has to be in solitaryconfinement on death row.
That's how bad he is.
And then one day the state says,yeah, okay, we'll give you this
offer plea and you can justleave after 18 years.
My bad.
They don't even say my badthough.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
No.
Oh, the judge actually saidreally nice things, actually.
It was a different judge.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
Yeah, but the state of Arkansas just let these boys
go after saying...
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Well, they were under...
I think they were undersupervision.
Were they not really real...
There were some sort ofstipulations on their release
for a period of 10 years.
Oh, is that right?
10 years, yeah.
No, it wasn't just a, youknow...
Still, though.
Yeah.
No, I mean, no, I...
It galls me.
I understand...
It makes me angry.
I understand the greater pointhere.
So this is a horrific crimesomebody committed.
(18:57):
Right.
And you think you still havethree convictions, so you're
just going to move on.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And that's exactly what thestate of Arkansas did.
Yeah.
Right?
That is not what we did.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
So they give their offer, please.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
You leave the courthouse.
You're walking out of thecourthouse.
And this is, I think I saw you,because there's cameras.
It's live, like I said.
SPEAKER_02 (19:18):
Oh, yeah.
Maybe there was a, no, you'reright.
We didn't immediately leave.
Was there a press conference,like, at the courthouse?
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
You know, I think there was.
Was it
SPEAKER_02 (19:27):
later?
I
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
think there was.
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
There was one at the courthouse.
I remember there was a panelpress conference where Damien,
Jesse.
And you were on TV.
I stood behind them.
Yeah.
And that was amazing just to bea part of that group of people.
Like when I think about thepeople that were there, you
know, it was obviously Jason'sattorneys that I didn't really
have a whole lot of contact withthroughout the process.
(19:50):
But Jesse's attorneys, I did.
I had more contact with.
And, of course, our attorneys,Steve Braga, Dennis Reardon.
and Don Horgan, amazing, amazingpeople and attorneys to have
worked with.
I feel very fortunate to haveworked with them.
And then there were otherpeople, other attorneys that had
worked on Jesse's case, inparticular Steve Drizzen and
(20:11):
Laura Narider, who worked on thefalse confession, I think, part
of Jesse's appeal.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah, we should do an episode on that confession.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah, well, I later got to work with Steve and Laura
on another case I had inArkansas for a period of time,
and that was amazing, too.
So making those kind ofconnections with just some
really awesome, brilliantlawyers.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah, I would say, are those Arkansas lawyers?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
No, no, no, no.
At the time, well, when I workedwith Steve and Laura, they were
working at the Bloom Law Clinic,which was affiliated with
Northwestern Law School, andthey would take cases, you know,
pro bono.
They were doing some cases inArkansas, primarily juvenile
cases at the time when I workedwith them.
(20:56):
Now it's called something elseit's called the wrongful
conviction center or somethingand it's in illinois so but
there yeah it was great to workwith them and then obviously
also to just be standing behindyour client you know we i was
standing behind damien who hadfor
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
years literally this time
SPEAKER_02 (21:13):
this yeah and as a free as a as a free man yeah you
know and just to feel thatmoment it was just incredible i
mean it's really hard to putinto words but it's very it's It
was just a massive, massivemoment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
And then, so there's a brief press conference, and
then you get in the van.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
We get in the van, and we go back to Memphis.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
so we get back to Memphis.
I believe everybody got droppedoff at the Madison Hotel.
Did I come home, and then we goback downtown?
I think we did.
Yes.
No.
I do.
I think I do remember this.
They were having a get-togetherthat night at the Madison Hotel
that we had been invited to.
Also had been invited...
was Glory Shettles, who hadworked as Damien's mitigation
(22:04):
specialist for his originaltrials.
And Ron Lacks was invited, ifI'm not mistaken.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
Was he there,
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
though?
He didn't come.
Interesting.
And now he might have, you know,Ron has since passed away.
So this was 2011, and I thinkRon passed away in 2013.
So I have no idea if he wasfeeling ill or, you know, but I
do, if I'm not mistaken, Ron wasalso, I mean, I didn't
personally invite him, but Ithink he was, from what Glory
had told me.
Glory, I think I go home, you'rethere, and Glory comes over to
(22:33):
our house and drove with usdowntown, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (22:35):
I don't remember that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (22:37):
I think she came with us.
So we went to the Madison Hotel.
I mean, can you imagine whatGlory, we have to have Glory on
at some point, but what Glorymust have felt like, you know,
just saying and saying hi toDamien, you know, just seeing
him out.
I mean, she'd never seen him outeither.
(22:57):
I mean, But she had been longerfor her.
So we're talking 1993.
Yeah.
And she, you know, had visitedhim many times when he was in
jail, pre-trial.
And, I mean, that is just anincredible.
And she obviously can speak toit better than I can.
But we did get, you know,several photos with her and
Damian and Lori and with theattorneys.
(23:19):
And we hung out on the rooftop.
And Eddie Vedder and Anna LeeMaines were there.
And they sang a
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
song.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
We were trying to remember what song it was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
I know.
I can't remember.
I
SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
can't remember.
It's just too big of a moment.
You can't remember those things.
I wish we'd written all thisstuff down, right?
I
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
wish I'd recorded it.
UNKNOWN (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
That was really cool.
I remember we got drinks at thebar in the lobby.
Downstairs?
Yeah, before we went up.
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
And then the bartenders were talking about
it, like, Eddie Vedder's in thehotel.
He's on the roof.
He's on the roof.
Something's going on.
And we're sitting there, andthen somebody comes to get us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
Okay.
I don't remember that.
I mean, vaguely.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then going to the roof, andthen I see the bartenders, like,
their jaws drop a little bit,and I'm like, yeah, we're going
upstairs.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
Yeah, and then we get up there.
There are two ginormous bouncersin the hallway.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
And I think I knew one of them.
SPEAKER_02 (24:16):
You probably did.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
I've been beaten up by a lot of bouncers.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Right.
Yes.
We won't talk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
But he nodded, and I nodded at him.
They checked our name, so Idon't know if he knew me or not.
Like you said, it's a weird,weird experience.
And then we go out there.
You had told me before.
You're like, just be cool.
Eddie Vedder's going to bethere.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, yeah, I'll befine.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
weird, though, right?
It's weird.
SPEAKER_00 (24:37):
And then I get up there, and I just, like, froze.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
I know.
It's so strange.
I'm like,
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Eddie Vedder's over
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
there.
This is, like, musically.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
You were super cool.
You, like, you called me over.
Like, Eddie, this is my husband,Tony.
Tony, Eddie.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Oh, well, I'm good.
I'm glad that was very cool andsmooth.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
He's a cool dude.
SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
Yeah, very down to earth.
I mean, had been funding, youknow, helping fund the defense
for years.
Yeah.
We had actually gone to one ofhis concerts.
There was a benefit concert inLittle Rock before their
release.
That's right.
And we went to that.
And, I mean, and then we justgrew up.
Our formative music years as ateen, you know, we're listening
to Pearl Jam.
(25:13):
Right.
Right?
I mean, this was our jam.
And I don't say jam that much,you guys.
But, I mean, seriously, when youtalk about Pearl Jam, it's the
jam, right?
Yeah, it was neat.
It was amazing.
Being a part of that and beingup there and, you know, having
Damien I'm sure I can't evenimagine what Damien or the Dick
Jason or Jesse wasn't therethough
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
he was not
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
he was not there
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
he was not on the vans either
SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
oh did he go home with his family maybe yeah he
went back to I actually ran intoJesse once
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
you told me this
SPEAKER_02 (25:44):
yeah it was many years ago now I was in when we
lived in Midtown the Walmart toshop at was in West Memphis
Arkansas it's the closest one soI was over there shopping one
day and I think it was a Sundayand And Jesse Miskelley was in
there.
And I said hello.
How did he look?
He looked fine.
Yeah.
Did he know who you were?
I mean, that was like many yearsago.
(26:05):
No, I had no idea who I was.
So I don't even know if I toldhim, hey, I was that
investigator that worked on thecase.
I think I just said, hey, JesseMiskelley.
And I said, how are you?
And he said, I'm fine.
He had no idea who I was.
No.
But, yeah, it's the only timeI've seen him, though.
Not that, I mean, and I don'treally go to West Memphis that
often anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yeah, so we sat there and we drank a bunch of
beers.
and hung out with Natalie Mainesand Eddie Vedder and Damian and
Lori.
Anyway, it was a big night.
A lot of fun.
SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
It was.
It really was.
I don't
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
remember how it ended.
Maybe it never did.
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
The next day, no, I don't actually remember either.
I mean, we left, obviously.
And the next day, that is whenAmy Berg was coming over with
her crew to do a little filmingfor West of Memphis.
That was the next day.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
That was the very next day?
It was.
Holy cow.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yes.
I think I looked a little toopuffy.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
You were a little puffy.
I was a little
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
puffy that day.
Yeah.
So the next day, yes, Amy Berg,they're filming West of Memphis.
She had, I don't even rememberhow long at this point Amy had
started filming West of Memphisand had been in Memphis.
SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
I did a lot of work for Amy.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
You did?
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Yes.
You were busy.
So Amy would need reports andstuff like that.
And you introduced me to her viaemail and or text.
And she would tell me what sheneeded.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
Oh, for the documentary?
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Oh, as far as the investigation.
Yeah.
Yeah, you would see a lot of myreports that look like my
reports flashing up on thescreen during West of Memphis
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
I was a huge part of that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
You really were.
But so the next, the day afterthe release, they come over to
the house and we did it on thefront porch, right?
Filming for the documentary isweird to me, you know, because I
kind of feel like, well, I'm notused to, and even sometimes this
podcast is weird to me becauseyou're asking me questions.
(27:57):
Yeah.
I am usually the one who asksquestions, right, of people.
That's what I've been doing forthe past 26 years.
So being asked questions isstill something that is new to
me.
For the documentary, you know,they would ask me questions and
then there were other times theycame for filming and I would
have to act like I was doing mywork, right, not really doing my
(28:20):
work.
So it was all very bizarre tome, like being filmed for a
documentary where I'm actinglike the investigator and
redoing things.
I remember one time they had mewalk in and out of FedEx.
I guess because I would send offsome of the DNA stuff.
That's not in the documentary, Ithink.
(28:42):
But I just remember that waskind of weird and now hilarious.
We get coming in and out of a
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
FedEx store.
Yeah, it's weird to see how thesausage gets made.
I helped them set up on thefront porch.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
You did.
You had some experience withthat because you majored in
communications in it.
done things.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
Yeah, communications with a concentration in film and
video production.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Anyway, I remember we had this, I had been meaning
to fix this for years, but wehad this telephone cord, right,
where the telephone service cameinto our house.
It was pinned up on the side ofthe
SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
porch.
Yes, I remember this.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
And it was hanging down.
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
And I asked Amy, I'm like, you want me to, you want
me to go, because I think you'dalready started filming.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
I was like, let me go fix that cord for you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
You don't want that cord hanging down, now.
SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
And she's like, no, I want it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
She wants the cord hanging down.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
She wanted the cord.
She wanted us to look like...
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
The cord would be hanging down on our porch.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
Yeah.
She wanted us...
Thanks,
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Amy.
Yeah.
No, that's just natural.
That's what the porch lookedlike, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
Yeah.
You're like, I really want tomove that cord.
I
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
did.
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
You should have done it in advance, Tony.
You should have scoped out theplace.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:47):
I had no idea where they were going to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
Yeah.
I had no idea either,
SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
honestly.
It was a hot
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
day, too.
But yeah, I remember there was acouple of times we would be
filming on other days, and Iwould be driving...
Like the driving shots, I thinkare so funny.
Cause I literally, I mean, I'mnot fake driving.
We're really, we are driving,but you know, we're driving
across the bridge and I don'tknow that the camera guy, I wish
I could remember their namescause they were super cool.
(30:12):
Um, would it be asking mequestions and I would, you know,
have to talk while I'm drivingand, but you know, I'm not
really working.
I'm not, I'm just driving acrossthis bridge.
Right.
So the only time though that Idid, the only time I felt very
comfortable in the filming ofthe documentary was when I was
actually doing my job.
There was at the very end, Ithink they were even in the
(30:33):
editing stages of West ofMemphis when, you know, they had
the West, the fund, the WestMemphis Three Group, whoever,
the defense attorneys had set upa tip line in like, I think,
2009.
And I did not handle the tipline.
Another investigator out of NewYork, they brought in who had
worked with Steve, I think onthe Marty Tankleff case, I
(30:57):
think.
J Salpeter he was handling thetip line and so every once in a
while a tip would come in aftertheir release even and I was I
don't know just in Memphis and Igot a call like hey can I get to
the other side of Arkansas to dosome work some tips that come in
they want you to follow up on itso I'm like sure so I go to you
(31:21):
know the other east Arkansas I'msorry west Arkansas to do some
interviews and then a film crewshows up and they're with me and
so some of the interviews at theend of west of memphis that are
done are actually me you knowspeaking doing the interview and
that was really the only timeyeah that i felt like
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
anything cool come out of the tip line
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
uh yeah oh well you know other some things that i
don't know if it's cool or notbut there are some things that
came from the tip line thatended up i think in some of the
filings i don't know how manytips they got like i said i
didn't run the tip line i wouldjust get a call or and it might
be other invest investigatorsgot other calls I have you know
there's other people working onthis case but every once in a
while I would get a call andthey would say you know can you
(32:04):
follow up on this on this tipand so I would go do that but on
that one occasion I did it withthe film crew because I think
like Amy might have even been inNew Zealand and with Lori and
Damien I think we're over theretoo because they were finishing
up the editing on West ofMemphis Amy couldn't be there to
do it and so I had to actuallydo the interview and then they
(32:25):
wanted it filmed so we had tofilm me doing the but you don't
see me on camera I'm behind thescenes which just felt much more
natural
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
to me that's really cool
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
okay so that so that was the story of their release
and our experience with that youknow I like I said before I've
got one other client who's ondeath row Jesse Dotson and
that's the case we're going totalk to a little bit but about
what I can I mean his case isstill in federal court.
(32:59):
He's in federal court now.
We'll talk about what I can'ttalk about.
I can only imagine, you know,working on another case.
I mean, I just feel veryfortunate that I've had to
gotten to experience working ona case where a client was
actually freed from death row.
You know, I really, honestly, Ireally hope that is the case for
Jesse Dotson at some point too.
Wow.
I really want to bring morelight to his case if we can and
(33:22):
see him walk out of prisonsomeday too.
But it was an amazingexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
It It really was.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Yeah, and I'm glad I got to share it with you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:29):
Yeah, it was really cool being able to see it up
close like that.
A little bit of behind thescenes stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yeah.
And so next time we are going totalk, I think this is going to
be one of the last episodes wedo where we talk exclusively
about, you know, our experiencewith Damien's case because
there's still stuff going on,right?
I mean, that day was not thelast day I did anything on
Damien's case.
The next episode we'll betalking about one moment in my
(33:54):
26 year career That is one topthree moment.
Top three.
Top three.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
Okay.
Episode five.
Top three moment in Rachel'scareer.
I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:07):
Hands down.
Hands down.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Don't tell me what it is between now and then.
I want to be surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (34:11):
Okay.
Well, we won't talk about itthen.
Okay.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Until next time.
Love you, Manit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Love you, Manit.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com